Dr. Jean Kilbourne - Pioneering Activist, Trailblazer, Popular Tedx Speaker & Writer - Manage the Moment: Conversations in Performance Psychology

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Shepp (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment
conversations in performancepsychology.
I'm Dr.
Sari Shepphird.

Jean Kilbourne (00:16):
I used to be very afraid of hostility.
I was very afraid of publicspeaking when I started out and
I realized that what I wasreally afraid of was, you know,
hostility.
And then eventually, you know, Icould encounter it and it would
be okay and I'd survive and youknow, life went on.
And so I remember giving it,speaking to a group of
advertisers, but a man came upto me and I thought, Oh boy,

(00:39):
here it comes.
You know, he's gonna come up andsay something, you know,
horrible.
And he came up to me and he said, um, you just changed a
lifetime's experience in onehour.

Dr. Shepp (00:52):
Dr Jean Kilbourne has been described as the superstar
through her frequent televisionappearances as an author, as a
lecturer, and a Tedtalk speaker.
She is a trailblazer whose filmslook at the power of the image
and the effects of mediarepresentations of women and men
on our culture, on our healthand on our lives.

(01:15):
Jean's groundbreaking work hasbrought her tremendous
recognition including beinginducted into the national
women's hall of fame.
Jean addresses important socialissues in her work, but this
conversation is a fresh look ather celebrated career as well as
the public perceptions that havecomplicated for work in the
public.
Believe it or not, Jean wasterrified of public speaking

(01:35):
when she first began.
And we talk about this as wellas some of the personal
underpinnings that havemotivated her work.
And as with many of my othermanaged the moment
conversations, I also asked Jeansome questions that she hasn't
been asked before.
And this time we also haveincluded questions from
listeners.
I've been learning from Jean foryears now and I continue to
learn in this conversation.

(01:57):
Well, Jean, I'm very excited tobe speaking with you this
morning, uh, for a number ofreasons.
Um, first because of the impactthat you've had on my career and
I'm sure you've heard this timeand again from folks who attend
your lectures, but you reallyhave had an impact on my career
at the outset because I was acollege student watching the
video still killing us softlyand was extremely impacted by it

(02:21):
because I was setting out to be,become a psychologist and was
actually interested in women'spsychology.
I had some experience workingwith victims of campus date rape
and I had some experienceworking with uh, girls and women
with eating disorders.
And when I saw your video forthe first time, it definitely

(02:43):
set me on a trajectory ofwanting to continue in that work
in my career.
And since that time I haveutilized your videos, a number
of them in classes that I havetaught, I refer to them quite
frequently.
And even in my book on eatingdisorders, I discuss some of the
of the thin ideal and refer toyour website as well.
And so you, you have had quite astrong impact.

(03:05):
So I'm thrilled to be speakingwith you for that reason.
But also because the topics thatyou address continue to be so
important and have such a strongimpact on not only the
generations prior to ours, butalso the generations to come.
So thank you for taking yourtime today.

Oh, it's my pleasure.
It's nice to be with you.
And I'm very, I love hearingthat.
Still killing us softly was aninfluence that, you know, that
was the second version ofkilling us softly.
I made the first version in 1979so this year is the 40th
anniversary of the film and I'veremade it three times since, so
most recently, uh, in 2010 askilling us softly four and I

(03:46):
actually have killing us softlyfour.

Dr. Shepp (03:53):
I did update my library to include that in my
collection and it continues tobe so timely.
So not only do you, do youaddress some of the ads that
started you in this work in yourmost recent video, but it's
current to the kinds of imagesthat we see today.
Um, and I highly recommend thatfolks take a take a look at that
download whenever they're ableto.
But I'd like to talk to you alittle bit about what it was
like for you when you firststarted presenting the ideas in,

(04:15):
in your work.
Because those ideas wereconsidered radical at the time,
weren't they?

Yes, they were.
And in fact, I was as far as Iknow, the first person to really
seriously look at the image ofwomen in advertising.
And I started collecting the, asin late 1960s and no one else
was doing that.
And it was very difficultgetting people to see this as a
serious issue.
So even other feminists said,you know, we don't have time for

(04:40):
this.
You know, we're dealing withimportant issues like violence
against women.
And I would say, well, this isrelated to violence against
women because when you have, um,when women are objectified and
you're surrounded by thoseobjectified images, that creates
a climate in which violencebecomes more likely.
So, but that was a hard sell inthose days.
Now of course, I think we allknow that's true.

(05:02):
Um, and so the ideas that wereradical then are really quite
mainstream now.
So was it a lonely experiencefor you then if even a feminists
around you who supported women'srights and who supported of
course, fair treatment of, ofwomen and, and worked to reduce
violence against women when youweren't getting the kind of
support that I, I would imagineyou hoped for?

(05:25):
I, I suppose it was, although itreally was, um, you know, I
didn't set out to sort of make acareer doing this and I was, um,
I was simply interested.
I'd been, I was involved in thewomen's movement and I also was,
had been long interested inmedia and the effects of media.
But, uh, when I startedcollecting the ads and we got a
camera and made slides and puttogether a slide show, it was

(05:48):
really something that I was justintrigued by an interested in.
I didn't think that it was goingto be something that would be
end up being a life, a lifetimecareer, which is what it has
been.
So I, I, I think I'm, although Imay have felt lonely, I don't
think I expected anything,anything else at that time, you
know, and it did, it did take awhile for people to convince

(06:10):
people that this was indeed aserious issue and that this was
something that we needed, thatfeminists and everyone else
needed to be paying attentionto.
But eventually that did happen.

Dr. Shepp (06:21):
And besides the lack of support as you began, which I
know has of course changed overtime, did you receive any sort
of hate speech or personalattacks for the kind of work
that you were doing?
Because I know we're of coursetoday in a climate where if
someone disagrees with anotherperson, of course there's a lot
of quick talkback and, and hatespeech and, and so it's part of

(06:42):
our culture.
But, but was it part of what youexperienced back then?

It was, although in those days people had to
actually send a letter.
So that meant that that meant itdidn't happen as much.
I mean, I did get some, youknow, a few letters that, uh,
but there was, there was no,there weren't trolls lurking on
the internet cause there was nointernet.
Um, and, and mostly, mostlypeople were, um, my audience is

(07:09):
let's say in the audiences forthe film where we're interested
in supportive.
And I think partly because, uh,the film and the way that I
presented it, uh, surprisepeople because in those days,
one of the things that you oftenheard was that feminists had no
sense of humor.
And so the fact that I encouragepeople to laugh at these sets
and that, you know, killing ussoftly is actually pretty funny.

(07:31):
If I do say something myself.
Um, I think I came as a realsurprise to people who were
expecting maybe to be hectoredabout something or expected
something grim.
And it wasn't that.
And I think another thing thatmade it more palatable to people
is that I always feel that I'vebeen fair to men and that I've,
you know, included, uh, how, howthese images affect men as well

(07:53):
as women.
Not, not so much the image ofmen in advertising.
Cause that wasn't such a, suchan issue then, but rather that
when I said killing us softly, Ireally met all of us because the
negative images of women affectmen as well as women.
So that, that surprised people Ithink, and, and made it more,
uh, made.
So I didn't get, I certainly didget some hate mail and I got

(08:17):
certainly some resistance frompeople in audiences and that
kind of thing, but maybe, maybeless than one would expect.
And I know that you entered intothis career sort of unexpectedly
as well, if he, if you talkabout things that were
unexpected, I know you didn'treally set out to have this be
your life's work.
You, you started off as a modelactually.
Well, I started off as asecretary really, but I mean, I,

(08:41):
I went to Wellesley college and,uh, and then the summer after I
graduated, I had to go tosecretarial school in order to
get a job.
And, um, so the jobopportunities for women were
extremely limited in those days.
And one opportunity I did havewas to do some modeling, which I
did.
And it was one of the few waysthat a woman could make a lot of

(09:01):
money in those days.
And it was, you know, seductivein some ways, but it was also
quite soul destroying.
So I didn't, and there was ahuge amount of sexual harassment
that came with the territory.
So I would sort of dabble in it,do it a little bit, and then go
back to being a waitress, youknow, because I couldn't stand
the climate.
Um, so that was, I didn't, Ididn't certainly didn't have a

(09:21):
modeling career.
It was just something that I didfrom time to time.
But it certainly did, uh, leaveme with, uh, a real interest in
the whole power of the image andthe whole idea of beauty.
And who decides and in her what,how does it affect you and that
kind of thing.
So that's been a lifelonginterest of mine.

Dr. Shepp (09:40):
Well, soul destroying it is a pretty strong phrase to
use.
It speaks to just the challengeof, of the work that you did
previously.

Yeah, well I think that the modeling was such
a, again, it was, you know, itwas something that in those days
there was everybody, you weresupposed to simply be grateful
that you had the opportunity.
And again, it was a, you know,one of the few ways that, or
when we could make some, somereal money, but, uh, and it was
in it in some ways perceived asbeing glamorous, although in
fact it really isn't all thatglamorous, but, but you know,

(10:10):
what people didn't really seewas first of all, you know, the
sort of cutthroat competition,but also the sexual harassment
and the whole way in which theobjectification was just so
extreme.
Um, and I mean, you literallybecome an object.
And, uh, and that, that's what Imeant when I said it was sole
destroying that and the fat.

(10:31):
And the, and the harassment.

Dr. Shepp (10:33):
And you've written about the harassment that you
experienced.
One of the pieces that you canfind online now is, is Jean's
discussion about her encounterwith Al cap, um, which was
disturbing just to read, letalone what it must have been
like to experience.
Uh, and you mentioned in there,um, that this wasn't really the
first experience that you hadwith sexual harassment when,

(10:55):
when you had these encounterswith El cap, it also, um, came
to you through some of the, orone of at least one of the
designers that you had beenworking for.
But we are living in a culturewhere sexual harassment is
really a kitchen tablediscussion because of some of
the events of, of recent times,but unfortunately because of how

(11:15):
commonplace it is for women toexperience.
Can you talk to us a little bit,uh, whatever you're comfortable
with about just the impact of,of those experiences and how
that affected your going to work, uh, on a daily basis when you
were modeling?

Yeah.
Well, it was, um, in those days,of course there wasn't even a
term for sexual harassment.
It was just normal.
It was sort of what just waswhat happened.
Women weren't talking, weweren't talking with each other
about these things.
So, and there was a tremendoustendency, which there still is
for women to blame ourselves,you know, so that w uh, to think

(11:52):
that maybe I, you know,encourage this in some way or
maybe if I dress differently orwhatever, if it did something
different.
Um, so there wasn't at all thesense, or of course the general
awareness of it, um, reallybegan with Anita Hill.
Uh, but, and then of course has,has really become, um, much,
much more widespread with the metoo movement.

(12:15):
But, you know, we're talkingnow, in my experience, 50 years
ago, there was nothing, I mean,there was, it was just, this is
just the way it is.
Uh, I, I wouldn't, I, there wasno term to describe it.
There wouldn't have been anyplace to report it.
There wasn't any, you know,there was nothing.
Um, but it was, what it did wasit was just sort of eats away at

(12:35):
you.
You know, and I, and Iexperienced it, um, in, in many
different jobs.
I mean, not just modeling,although with modeling, with
modeling, it was sort of the,the sort of cliche of baby, I
can make you a star, you know,that kind of thing that you can,
you can be, you can be reallybig and you can, you know, be
famous and make all this moneyand all you have to do is sleep

(12:56):
with me.
Um, and whereas the, theharassment and the other jobs
wasn't, wasn't like that.
It was, if sometimes it was moresubtle.
Um, and again, you were supposedto either, I don't know, be
flattered, um, think that it wasokay.
Somehow they are blame yourselfif it got to be too extreme.
Um, so it's, it's been, one ofthe things that's been very

(13:19):
exciting in recent years hasbeen in very recent years, has
been to see the discussion aboutthis and then for women to start
sharing the extraordinary degreeof this, you know, in all of our
lives.
And sometimes it's, you know,sometimes it's things like cat
calls, you know, and that sortof thing.
And other times it's, it's rape,you know, I mean, it's a

(13:40):
continuum.
Uh, but, um, I don't know.
I know very few women whohaven't, haven't experienced it,
which of course is, is one ofthe things that unifies us as
women.
It's a very sad way to beunified.
But the common experience thatwe have of, of, uh, oppression
or of harassment of, um, beingconsidered an object in, in more

(14:03):
ways than one a sexual object,but also an object of, of beauty
and thin ideal and all of that,which we will talk about.
But, um, absolutely it is,unfortunately.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Unfortunately, one of the thingsthat unifies us and we
discovered that, I mean, that'sthe say the thing that was also
happening, you know, 50 yearsago with the second wave of the
women's movement was theconsciousness raising or were

(14:24):
the consciousness raisinggroups.
And, and that, of course justmeant, um, women getting
together and telling, tellingeach other about the, the, the
truth about our lives.
And what we discovered is thatwe had all these experiences in
common, you know, the sexualabuse as children, the, uh, the
sexual assault, the sexualharassment, the objectification,

(14:46):
all of it.
I mean, we all felt sort of sortof alone and that this was only
happening us and therefore wemust have be bringing it on
ourselves.
And, and of course, theextraordinary, extraordinary
sort of liberation that camewith, uh, discovering, um, how,
how much we had in common with,with each other.

Dr. Shepp (15:06):
That's an empowering experience, isn't it?
Very much so.
Yeah,

it's an enraging experience too.
So it was very, I, you know,there was, I remember, you know,
leaving consciousness, raisinggroups, you know, just, and
feeling so enraged.
But, you know, eventually youhave to, you know, you have to
get past that or it just eatsaway at you.
And, and is empowerment one ofthe reasons why you wanted to

(15:30):
pursue this line of research?
Was it to empower yourselfpersonally as well as other
women?
I suppose, I mean the, the mainthing really was I felt that,
that this, that what washappening with first of all that
advertising was so important.
I mean, it was, it, althougheverybody thinks is so trivial,
but that we're so surrounded byit and it is the engine that

(15:53):
drives the mass media.
Um, and it's in many ways it'sthe propaganda of capitalism.
I mean, it's all kinds ofthings.
It's, it's, it's verysignificant and important and no
one was really paying attentionto that.
And as I started to look at whatthe image of women was, I was,
it was incredible.
I mean, it was just amazing tosee, um, how, how women were

(16:14):
objectified, dismembered or bydifferent parts of our body used
to sell products.
The, uh, the stereotypes that,uh, were being, uh, Propecia
weighted by the advertising andthat no one says no one was
talking about this.
And everybody sort of believesthat they're not affected by
advertising.
Therefore, there wasn't any kindof lens being[inaudible] light

(16:38):
being shown on it.
And I thought, well, I wanted todo that.
I wanted to bring this out.
Uh, I wanted to bring this intoconsciousness.
That's what I really wanted todo to make these unconscious
messages of advertisingconscious.
And the reason to do that wasnot simply so that people would,
um, you know, become maybe lessmanipulated by advertising or
more aware of it or whatever.

(16:59):
But because it also, uh, Ithought was a really effective
way to teach about sexism andabout stereotypes.
It's also an effective way tohelp women and men of course,
realize the importance of beingassertive, recognizing their
right to their own need forsafety, their own need for, um,

(17:23):
having their own, their own needand right to have a voice and to
express themselves as humanbeings and is nothing less, not
as objects, but as, as humanbeings.
And you have written in yourpiece about your encounter with
El cap that while you had hadother more dangerous and, and,
um, uh, upsetting experienceswith men than the sexual

(17:46):
harassment that you experienced.
Um, in your encounters with him,he came the closest to
extinguishing your sense ofself.
And, uh, if you wouldn't mindjust speaking a little bit to
that and how your work perhaps,uh, relates to some bolstering
not only your sense of self, butpotentially others as well.

(18:08):
Yeah, the reason that theexperience with cap was so
distressing was that he washiring me or wanting me to work
with him, uh, writing and doingprojects that that really had to
do with my mind, you know, notmy body.
And so it sort of made moresense to me as a model.

(18:28):
I mean, not that it's okay, itnever is, but uh, but harassment
in some ways I felt a little bitmore detached from.
But in this case here wassomebody who really thought that
I was, you know, very smart andtalented and, and wanted to hire
me to, to work with him onprojects that I was really

(18:48):
interested in and that wouldhave been challenging.
And remember, this is in aclimate in which the work was so
limited and so boring and soawful.
I really was a waitress.
And I was a secretary, you know,and, and uh, and here was
something that was reallyinteresting and exciting and yet
even then, it wasn't going tohappen in less, you know, I sort

(19:10):
of, um, gave in to him.
Um, and you know, which Ididn't, but it was very, it was
just very distressing becauseit, it really, I think the way
in which I felt that it, thatsort of erased in that even even
my mind, even my intelligence,all of that, none of it mattered
really.

(19:30):
You know, I was simply, uh, anobject.
And unfortunately now that ideais part of what is conveyed and
in some of the images that wehave in advertising that women
are[inaudible], they're not amind.
They're not a creative sense of,um, of thought or of impact.
They are, they are nothing morethan an object.

(19:53):
Right.
Well that's true.
And also of course in, inadvertising, and I mean the
majority of women are, um, are,you know, very young and, and
conventionally beautiful and,you know, conform to it, sort of
an ideal of beauty that thatexcludes almost everyone.
And so that was another thingthat, uh, that struck me when I

(20:13):
started looking at the ads wasthe sort of tyranny of the ideal
image of beauty in the way thatit affects women's self esteem.
And this again was sort of aguess on my part, you know, 50
years ago that that ha thatthese images would affect self
esteem.
And now we know that they do.
Um, in the same way that it wassort of a guest, that
objectification would create aclimate that would encourage

(20:36):
violence.
And now we know that that's truetoo.
But it just seemed to me, howcould it not, you know, how
could it not?
It's an instinct that you had.
Um, that certainly has beenshown to be true through
research and, and not just interms of, uh, the images of
advertising and, uh, not justthe images of women.

(20:57):
But if we look at some of theresearch that's been done, for
example, on genocide and theHolocaust and the, uh, the, the
way that we've whittled it downto understanding that these
patterns of violence begin whena person of people group are
objectified, considered nothingmore than an inhuman object.

(21:19):
Uh, and as such can be treatedas less than human.
That's right.
And in fact, you know, I feellike it's actually essential to
dehumanize someone if you'regoing to be violent to them,
because I think that it's verydifficult and it might even be
impossible to be violent tosomeone we consider an equal
human being, but it's very easyto abuse a thing.

(21:40):
So you're absolutely right withgenocide.
I mean, I remember with theRwandan genocide that they, uh,
the victims were calledcockroaches, you know, and that
they were, that's how they wereportrayed on th th the radio
stations and everything else.
So that, um, the, the murders,it was as if almost the, the
people weren't murdering humanbeings.
They were simply stamping outcockroaches.

(22:01):
And of course we saw that alsowith the Holocaust and with, uh,
in in war time, the sort of, um,names that, uh, soldiers give to
the enemy and the way in whichif you dehumanize someone, make
that person less than human,turn them into a thing, an
object.
Well then violence reallybecomes inevitable.
It's not a very, um, upliftingsubject to discuss, but it's a

(22:25):
necessary one.
Um, I also find it aninteresting one just with my
background as a psychologist,the way that we manipulate our
own perceptions in order tojustify, rationalize, um, the,
the choices that we make.
One of the things that you havesaid is that you believe the
antidote to despair is action.

(22:47):
And I find that to be veryencouraging and hopefully to
those who are listening to ourconversation as well, that
instead of hearing the, the, uh,the naked truth, so to speak, uh
, forgive the pun of, of, ofwhat we're discussing, um, to
consider instead that each of ushas the ability to impact our

(23:09):
world, whether that be ourchildren, our spouses, our
partners, our places of work orcircles of influence.
We can take action to helpraise, continue to raise the
consciousness about these issuesand, and make a difference.
Absolutely.
And as, and as you say, thereare so many different ways to
take actions.

(23:30):
So one of the things I've alwaysdone with my lectures is to say,
um, you know, that, I mean I'mnot doing all this in order to
get people to sort of take onadvertisers.
What I really want is for peopleto become active, to bring about
real change.
You know, in the, in the culturechange about, uh, sexism about
racism, about social justice.
I mean, and that can be done in,in, it can be done through

(23:53):
joining organizations orthrough, you know, professions,
certain professions or it can bedone as you say.
I mean simply by the way youraise your children, you know,
or, or relate to your partners,um, that it's, uh, but what's
important is that everybody dosomething.
Well, gee, I'm just going toshift gears for a moment and not

(24:17):
to in any way deemphasize whatwe've been talking about, but I
wanted to speak a little bitmore about your experience as a
somewhat of a Herald, uh,someone who has been calling for
action and, and encouragingothers to be a change in their
world.
Have you ever experiencedpressure because of that role or

(24:37):
because of the perception thatsome people might have of you as
, as being a Herald and achampion for such an important
cause?
Um, yes.
Uh, in all kinds of ways.
But it's funny, I mean, I, I'mnot sure if this is what you
mean, but I was thinking that win the, in the early days when I

(24:57):
was starting out, um, and, andtalking about these issues, um,
sometimes, occasionally peoplewould say that, um, I look too
much like the models myself.
So therefore that made mesomehow, um, I don't know what
hypocritical, not, not to bebelieved or I don't, I don't
know what it was exactly, but Iremember thinking then, and this

(25:18):
was a long time ago, just wait awhile.
And then before, you know, meand another couple of decades,
people will be saying, this issour grapes.
You know, no wonder you had thisfeeling.
It's gonna flip, you know,because there in some ways, you
know, feminists really can'twin, you know, and in that
regard, I mean, one is either,you know, uh, to attractive

(25:40):
quote unquote, or, or, or, ortwo unattractive as there's no
sort of middle ground, you know.
So that was one of the ways inwhich, um, I met sometimes as
resistance or, or sometimespeople would feel that I should
not be wearing any makeup, let'ssay, or I should be dressed in a
different way than I was because, um, and, and how I was dressed
was always just professionally,you know, I mean, not, uh,

(26:03):
certainly not seductively, butit was, but there was the whole
idea that if I, you know, waswearing lipstick, that somehow
that, that meant that I didn'tmean what I was saying, but of
course, I, you know, I was neversaying that, that, you know, I'm
not one to dictate how peopleshould present themselves.
And that never was the point ofwhat I was talking about anyway.
But it started, it was almostamusing in those days to realize

(26:25):
that, uh, that this particularthing was really unwinnable and
I was pretty sure that someday,uh, that, you know, the, the,
the opposite, the opposite,they'd be saying the opposite.
They haven't said that to myface, but, but nonetheless, it's
probably out there as you age.
Do you, do you feel that, um,people want to, to wait and see

(26:46):
how you respond to your ownaging?
Well, I, I don't know aboutthat.
I mean, I think that, I meanaging is, I, I've always said
from the very beginning and youknow, from when I was a very
young woman, I was always awareof the fact that, um, that how I

(27:07):
looked was that it was going tobe very, uh, this was going to
be very short term.
You know, that, and I used to, Iremember a man said to me once,
um, you know, obviously a longtime ago, he says, your beauty
is an international passport.
And I said, well, maybe, butsomeday it'll be revoked.
And I was, I was always aware ofthat said it was to be a

(27:29):
beautiful young woman is like insome ways like having, um, a lot
of money in the bank, but withthe absolute assurance that
someday, someday you'll bebankrupt.
That if your, if your value, ifthat's where you put your self
esteem and that's where yourvalue lies.
Um, that's, it's not going towork out very well because there
is simply no way, uh, you know,for that to, um, to little, to

(27:54):
last.
I mean, in spite of the factthat, you know, we see all kinds
of, every now and then we seeimages now of celebrities who
are in their sixties or youknow, God forbid even older who
through surgery or cosmetics orwhatever, um, managed to look,
you know, 30 years younger.
And then that's held up as,look, this can be done and this
is still, you know, but it's,it's still the same image.

(28:16):
And we, we don't see an image ofa woman who in her sixties,
who's actually looks like she'sin her sixties, who's presented
as being, um, still attractiveand desirable.
Or we very rarely see that.
So I was, and I was somehowaware of that even as a young
woman, that this was going to be, um, this was short lived.
That it gives you a tremendoussense of power, you know, in a

(28:39):
way, but that it's, you know,it's an illusion of power,
really.
And it's not going to last verylong.
So I always knew that that wassomething I better not count on.
Um, and that it was somethingthat I really wanted to explore
and understand better.
And aging is of course forwomen.
I, I've, I've always said this,I mean that there's, there's

(28:59):
such, um, contempt for women whoshow signs of aging, um, that no
wonder there's a whole lot ofterror of it and so many
products and industries and allof that that are all about
trying to, uh, make women lookmuch, much younger than they
actually are.
Um, and you know, and whereasthis is not true for men really

(29:22):
at all.
And it's a world of differencebecause I think the emphasis for
women on having to say, lookingvery, very young, uh, takes an
incredible toll and it takes ahuge amount of time and energy
and money for one thing, but italso just does a whole lot of
psychic damage.
It's one of the ways I that, uh,and you speak to this in your

(29:43):
lectures, that the, the imagesof advertising, the way that we
have embraced them as, as beingmessages that we just, um, we
buy into and accept withoutchallenging it.
It just again speaks to how weend up caging ourselves instead
of allowing ourselves to, toreach our potential, um, see

(30:08):
ourselves as more than an objectbecause we buy into this
concept.
Uh, we do so as we age, we do soabout the thin ideal.
And I think we've seen in recentyears this simply has become, uh
, more of a concern.
We have young girls who at theage of 12, are using certain

(30:29):
apps to adjust their photosbefore they're posted onto
social media.
Because even taking a picture ofyourself now has to be somehow
doctored and made to lookperfect before it's acceptable
amongst your closest friends.
And we have women who, if you'llpardon my term, um, engage in a

(30:51):
form of self mutilation, um,through some of the things that
we might do to ourselves inorder to continue to feel
accepted in our culture.
Uh, based on the way that welook.
So this continues to be, uh, notonly a, uh, a shocking reality
as, as I watched my, um, mycohorts and, and our, our

(31:14):
children face these issues.
Uh, but also a very disturbingreality.
It's, it's very disturbing know,and it's not, you know, I never
ever blame women for thisbecause we get the message from
birth really, that, uh, that howwe look is so incredibly
important.
And in fact it is.
I mean, in terms of all kinds ofthings and including, you know,

(31:35):
success in the workplace,although being too beautiful is
a liability.
But, uh, but there is a certain,um, it's not that, uh, you know,
we're not making this up.
This is really, this pressurereally does exist and there
really are consequences andthere are tremendous
consequences for women who donot measure up to the ideal,
which again, is all of useventually.

(31:55):
But you know, women who areoverweight, let's say, are
considered overweight or womenwho, who don't, um, shaved their
legs, you know, for presentthemselves in a, in a
particular, a particular waythat is considered, you know,
acceptable.
And if a woman doesn't do that,uh, there's a tremendous amount

(32:16):
of contempt, contempt andhostility that comes your way.
So it's, it's not, um, it's notsurprising that women spend so
much time and money and energyand everything you're trying to
on all of these various things.
And even sometimes to the pointof, as you said, self-mutilation
uh, because the, the stakes arevery high.

(32:37):
There's a wonderful, um, waythat women can spend their time
in, in things that they enjoy,whether that be taking care of
oneself in, in a way or enjoyingmakeup and being an artist in
that way, or enjoying how a newhaircut might feel or buying a
new outfit.
And certainly, well within therealm of, of, of what a woman

(32:59):
should be able to do.
It's, it's more about themessages behind some of the
activity and the way that weconvince ourselves that we're
not good enough unless we dothese things.
That's true.
And it's also, um, and you know,you're right.
I mean there can be a lot ofsort of pleasure and fun and a
lot of those activities, but the, um, it's the, what disturbs me
the most is the kind of, um,loss of self esteem, let's say,

(33:23):
is as women grow older andwe're, and we're told that we're
not as valuable.
We become invisible.
All of that, that I think isvery painful.
Um, one thing that upsets me alot is how little joy, um, many
women take an eating, you know,because everything is become, uh
, food has become so demonizedand, and everybody's, you know,

(33:44):
constantly worrying about whatthey're eating.
And so I see this particularly,it just used to make me so sad
when I see sort of young womenthat cut the colleges.
I went to sort of picking up thesalad bar, you know, and not,
you know, just not, not takingpleasure.
And then if they did havesomething like ice cream, God
forbid or something like that,then they sort of the self, you

(34:08):
know, berating and the kind of,Oh, they how bad they've been,
all of these things.
I mean, how sad it is because tome eating should be one of
life's great pleasures and uh,it's, it, that's just so many
women have been robbed of that,of that possibility for that
kind of pleasure and joy and ofcourse it's necessary to survive

(34:28):
and also to thrive.
But it speaks to just how deepthe current runs of some of the,
the messages that we'veinternalized.
Because of course, as you know,there have been studies in other
countries.
Um, Fiji for example, was alandmark study where the images
of advertising have beenaddressed and we did out too to

(34:49):
really determine to be a causefor the rise in eating disorders
in, in any westernizedpopulation.
And when we realize just howstrongly these ideas impact us,
that we were willing to starveourselves, we're willing to
deprive ourselves.
Um, we feel that somehow we needto, um, be smaller, take up less

(35:13):
space, um, have less of a voice,have less of an impact in the
world in order to be consideredacceptable in the world.
Um, that's a dangerouspossibility isn't it?
Yes, it is.
Yeah.
And to be considered desirable,which is why you address these
issues as a public healthcrisis.
And I wanted to underscore thatthis, this really isn't just a,

(35:36):
uh, you standing on your soapboxand wanting all angry women to
stand there with you.
This is, this is really a veryserious matter because it is a
public health crisis.
When we've identified theviolence against women that's
impacted by images inadvertising.
When we, we've identified theimpact on the rate of eating

(35:57):
disorders.
Of course, we also know throughstudies from the American
psychological association thatdepression and low self esteem
are linked to the images ofwomen in advertising.
So this really is a publichealth issue.
I have.
Yes.
I've, and I, I, I thought soeven before I use that term, I
mean, I, I was in the 80s that Ibegan to find colleagues and

(36:18):
they, aside from Presidio,feminists who've been, uh, some
colleagues from, you know,relatively early on and many of
my colleagues were in the fieldof public health.
And I realized that, that reallywhat I was doing was to a great
extent about public health witha focus on the environment in
which we all live and the way inwhich this environment is toxic,

(36:39):
you know, and it's toxic to, towomen.
It's toxic to men too, in asomewhat different way.
And it's certainly toxic tochildren.
So that was, I realized thenthat that really was, it was
what I was doing.
And of course I also looked inthe 70s, I started looking at
alcohol and tobacco advertisingas well, and the ways in which
these, uh, the marketerstargeted young people in

(37:01):
particular children really, andalso women.
And of course those aredefinitely public health issues
as well.
Absolutely.
And, and I know that this hitshome for you as well.
And which of course is up to youwhether or not you'd like to
talk at all about it.
But I know you've had familymembers who've struggled,
whether it be with alcohol ortobacco or even, um, been on the

(37:24):
verge of an eating disorder.
So you see the impact of this in, in your own, in your own
world.
Right.
And I know very few people whohaven't.
I mean, there's certainly been,um, yeah, there's been a lot of,
um, uh, alcoholism in my familygoing back and, um, and uh, you
know, I've, I quit drinking avery long time ago, probably
about 43 years ago, and I was asmoker and I quit smoking a long

(37:47):
time ago, which was actuallyprobably the hardest thing I've
ever done, um, because nicotineis so addictive.
Um, so yeah, there's, Idefinitely have a personal stake
in all of this too.
And that's part of what led tomy interest in the advertising.
I remember when I startedcollecting alcohol ads and, uh,
looking at them, I was maybe sixmonths into really looking at

(38:08):
them.
And I realized with horror thatthe alcohol industry understood
alcoholism better than any othergroup in the country at that
point.
And that they were using thisknowledge to target alcoholics
and to, um, and to createaddiction basically.
Uh, and they were incrediblyclever, but they also obviously

(38:29):
had done the research to reallyunderstand, um, what alcoholism
and addiction, you know, what'sat the heart of it, which really
is loneliness in the sense ofisolation, which is really
what's at the heart of your workin media literacy is, is you,
you would like us to understandthat advertisers know exactly
what they're doing, that theylove, um, the, the person who

(38:52):
struggles with bulemia andsending messages that the food
will be their greatest lover andtheir most true companion.
And, and advertisers love toactually encourage people to
drink irresponsibly, which Iknow for many people, if this is
a new topic for them as we'relistening together, um, might
sound shocking, but it doesn'tmake it any less true.

(39:13):
Right?
No, absolutely.
I mean, they, they, I mean thebulimic really is the ideal
consumer.
Um, because, you know, she or hewill consume an enormous amount
of food, mostly junk food, andthen we'll, um, you know, purge
and then we'll do it again.
And dieters actually are, aregreat consumers too because no
diet works.

(39:34):
Cause I mean, all diets work inthe beginning, you know, but
within five years, people haveeither have gained, regained the
weight or they put on more, uh,this is if they're using, you
know, diet products as opposedto simply not simply, but as
opposed to really changing ofthe way that they eat and
exercise, which is the only wayto have real longterm results.

(39:54):
But so, but the whole idea thatthese, this consumption that
these are, um, people who aredieting are great consumers too.
You know, because almost everydiet using, you know, again,
these diet products ends with a,um, a binge, um, because you've
been deprived for a long timeand then you've been John stuff.

(40:16):
So all of it is profitable, youknow, profitable to the
companies that are selling allthese products above it.
All of it is also incrediblyharmful, uh, to, uh, to the
people it is.
And I think another trend that'sharmful is that as we move away
from traditional sources ofmedia, television, commercials,
print media and magazines, andwe move more towards social

(40:39):
media as a culture, we're notrecognizing that a lot of what
we see continues to beadvertising through social
influencers, through people whoare actually engaging in social
media in order to promoteproducts.
Instead, we feel that these arejust random citizens who are
sharing their success storiesabout diet pills or whatever it

(41:00):
might be related to their, um,triumph with, with achieving
weight loss or the beauty ideal.
We don't realize that we'restill being sold advertising.
It's actually now a little bitmore covert in its attempts
destination.
Silly, right.
And particularly the influenceof, as you say, the influencers,
the celebrities, you know,including a lot of celebrities

(41:21):
who were famous simply for beingfamous, you know, like the
Kardashians who then, you know,are, have their Instagram
accounts and all of that and,and present these products as if
they've just discovered them.
But of course it's really a paidcommercial, but people don't
realize it, which in some waysmakes it even more insidious
than advertising that werecognize as being paid

(41:41):
advertising.
And the other thing that'shappened is really changed
advertising has been the way inwhich, uh, advertisers can now
very narrowly target us so that,uh, when we use social media, we
give a huge amount ofinformation to advertisers and
they can then use that to targetus very specifically with ads.
And, uh, that's, you know, beengreat for them but not so great

(42:05):
for the rest of us.
So this kind of, and, and a lotof this, um, the advertising is
also behind what's problematicabout a lot of social media.
So it's been a huge change inthe advertising landscape in the
past 10 or 15 years.
Let me ask you to gene toaddress if you don't mind, a
couple of questions that wereceived from callers, um, that

(42:28):
relate to some of the changesthat we've seen taking place,
um, in recent years.
And so I'll play the first onefor you now.
Hello Jean.
I'd like to ask you a questionabout women in advertising as it
relates to current events.
So we've been following women inadvertising for some time, but

(42:49):
right now with the me toomovement and the intense push
back on the me too movement,it's very reminiscent of the
feminist movement and the pushback on that.
How do you see that beingreflected in advertising for
women at this time?
This is submitted by dr NancyMarie Amor from Pittsburgh.

(43:10):
Yeah.
It's hard to say exactly how,um, how the me too movement and
the backlash, uh, is reflectedin advertising.
I'm not so sure.
Um, I'm not so sure about that,but I know that, that one thing
that's happening is that someadvertisers are trying to, um,

(43:34):
do ads that are moreprogressive, you know, and
sometimes, I mean, things like,um, I mean the whole dove
campaign that's been going onfor 10 or 15 years now, the
campaign for real beauty or thealways a commercial like a girl,
which was, you know, about how,uh, how girls are often sort of
denigrated, um, in sports.

(43:56):
Um, and there are many, thereare several others, uh, that are
advertisers trying to, uh, bemore progressive.
So there's a lot of, or somecontroversy about these ads
because, uh, sometimes peoplecriticize them as being simply
about public relations andthey're not really, you know,
their heart really isn't in it.
And that may be true.

(44:17):
Um, and to some extent I don'tcare because it's so important
to me to get something out therethat's, that is different.
That is really, in a sense,counter advertising that
presents a different image.
So, even if it's not, you know,entirely sincere on the part of
the company.
Um, what's more important to meis that something like the

(44:38):
always like a girl commercialran during the Superbowl, you
know, a couple of years ago.
And that's really quite amazingbecause that's an audience that
never would have seen anythingquite like this before.
Now if people are concernedabout, um, you know, the
sincerity of these, of theseadvertisers, one thing to do is
to look at the companies behindthem and see how, how they treat

(45:00):
women in the companies.
You know, how many women are onthe boards of direct board of
directors and how many women arein positions of power and all of
that.
Because ideally that companiesshould be, you know, um, walking
the walk as well as talking thetalk and not just, uh, doing
more progressive, moreprogressive advertising.
But having said that, we reallydo need more progressive
advertising and it really canhelp.

(45:22):
So I think we have seen some ofthat.
And some of that might be, um,partly in a response to, uh, the
, um, the increased dialoguethat is happening now.
The increased discussion about,um, about women's lives, about
the fact that I think for many,um, for many hood men, uh, it

(45:44):
came as a complete revelationthat most women have, you know,
lived in a world in which therehas been this kind of
extraordinary harassment, um,all the time and has been so, so
much so that it's beenconsidered really quite normal.
And a lot of men, I think we'recompletely unaware of that.
And the, you know, many have theones who've taken the time to

(46:05):
really listen to women and topay attention to it.
I think I've been really shockedand educated by it.
And I also want to reemphasize apoint you made earlier, which is
that this, these issues affectmen as well.
We, we have higher rates of bodydysmorphia and men who feel that
they are not good enough unlessthey bulk up and they have the
kind of musculature that theysee in, in men's advertising.

(46:28):
And you make a point, of coursein your lectures that
advertising directed toward menaffects men differently than
advertising that's directedtoward women.
But at the same time, it'simportant to point out that the
men are impacted by these imagesas well.
They are.
But I think even more importantthan the fact that that there
were some negative images of menor that men, you know, men are

(46:48):
sometimes objectified.
I think really actually muchmore important than that is the
fact that the negative images ofwomen affect men.
You know, they affect women ofcourse, but they also affect men
partly because men then grow up,you know, learning to look at
women in this way, to learningto look at women as objects or
maybe not to take women asseriously, but also, uh, because

(47:09):
, um, the hind, there's not onlycontempt for women in our
culture, there's contempt foreverything that can, is
considered feminine and humanqualities that get divided up
and polarized and labeledmasculine and feminine.
And then the feminine isconsistently devalued.
And by that I mean qualitieslike compassion and intuition

(47:31):
and nurturance and all of that.
And what happens to men isthey're often socialized to
repress these qualities inthemselves and that does
enormous harm to men.
So I feel like that's the kindof, is that kind of
psychological damage that's doneto men because, uh, because men
are so conditioned to beterrified of anything that might

(47:52):
make them be seen as like awoman, um, that, that just does
that does way more harm I think.
Then, um, occasional images ofMendez objects.

Speaker 4 (48:11):
[inaudible]

I was going to ask you how you keep your
lectures fresh, uh, after somany years of presenting some
content that has remainedrelatively consistent since
you've do this time and timeagain, how you keep your
presentations fresh for you as,as the presenter.
But I imagine just some of thequestions that you get each time
you present the information, itmust take on a new feel.

(48:32):
It does.
And in some ways, and I do, Imean, I do keep some of the same
as, because now I'm trying tosort of give a little bit of
depth as well in history, but I,it's easy enough to find some
new examples.
And I do, you know, I do findnew examples all the time and I,
I put enough in so that, youknow, it's clear that this is
still happening.

(48:53):
Absolutely.
But the, the image is actuallythat you include in each updated
version, uh, become moreshocking every time.
Yes.
Yeah, they do.
Yeah, they do.
Let me ask, um, ask you tolisten to the second question
that came in and, um, and if youwouldn't mind responding to
that.
Sure.
Jean, thank you for yourinspiring work.

(49:13):
What historical lessons do youthink we need to learn about our
activism and education effortsif we're to have a lasting
impact on representations ofgender, race, violence, and
sexuality?
Wow, that's a great question.
What historic, so looking backat what we've done, uh, well I,

(49:36):
um, one thing I think is that,uh, education is really key and
that we need to start educationabout all of these issues very
early on.
You know, really right awaystarting in kindergarten.
You know, we need to be teachingabout, um, about respect for
each other, about we need to belearning about bullying and how

(49:59):
to cope with bullies and how to,you know, how to defend each
other.
All of those things.
We need to be teaching honest,accurate, age, appropriate sex
education.
We should be including not justinformation about sex, but
information about relationships,how to have intimate
relationships, how to, how to be, um, part of, uh, how to be in

(50:22):
a relationship, how to, um, howto deal with conflict without
resorting to violence.
Um, all of these things.
And there are other countriesthat are doing a much better job
than we are about all of thesethings.
Um, the Scandinavian countrieshave, you know, a lot of the, um
, Western European countries orare teach, you know, teach sex,
education, teach relationship,education, uh, do all of this

(50:45):
kind of thing.
And they also do teach, youmentioned this earlier, but
media literacy, which meansteaching people how to
understand, um, all aspects ofthe media.
Not just advertising, but thingslike the news.
Who determines what, what thenews is.
And you know, and how, whocontrols the media, who has the
power.
So all of those kinds of thingsare important too, to educate

(51:08):
people I think.
And we need to be also educatingour, our students, um, to be
critical thinkers because that'sreally what's most important.
I mean, one of the things that'sdisheartening now has been the
emphasis on testing and youknow, standardized stuff because
really what, what's going to beneeded in the future and not
that far in the future.
10 years in the future, what'sgoing to be needed, um, more

(51:30):
than anything else are peoplewho are creative and who can
think critically.
Uh, because we have, we're goingto be solving problems that we
don't even really know aboutyet.
And you know, no one can be sortof educated in the present with
very specific ways to do that.
It's more a way that you thinkin a way that you approach
problems.
And that's very important.

(51:52):
And that would also have to dowith understanding sort of the
roots of sexism and racism andclassism and all of the isms and
the kind of pain that they causeand the, um, you know, what,
what underlies them and what wecan do to prevent, prevent them.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
Okay.

Your work speaks directly to my heart.
It's the kind of the kind ofthing that I encounter on a
daily basis with the clientsthat I work with who are
impacted by these isms.
And, um, we are human beings.
And even though we may oftenencounter situations or messages
that might make us feel lessthan that, it doesn't change the

(52:31):
fact that we are.
So when we can address the kindsof issues that impact our lives
and our mental health, ourwellbeing, our relationships,
it's so important to do.
And I'm, um, I remain gratefulfor your work.
I could really talk to you forhours about the things that you
speak about because it'sfascinating to me.
I, I take a personal interest init.

(52:52):
Um, I take, uh, an interest justas, as a, an aware citizen.
Um, but we only have a littlebit of time left.
And so I'm going to shift gearsif you don't mind and just ask
you to, to answer some questionsthat I ask everyone that I speak
with, if that's okay with you.
Sure.
So, Jean, what in life are youstill curious about?

Speaker 5 (53:13):
Yeah.

Oh, I'm, I'm curious about so many things,
but I guess right now, given theage I am, I'm most curious about
what comes after this.
If anything, you know, whathappens, what at the end, um,
the, the great mystery, youknow?
Um, so, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, Imean I'm, I'm, I'm curious about
other things too, but I wouldsay right now that that really

(53:37):
is something that's on my mind.
I would imagine a lot of peoplewould like to see you give us a
slide presentation about that aswell.
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
Um, which is more distracting toEugene as, as a lecturer, praise
or criticism.
So for example, if, if youreceive praise or criticism

(54:00):
perhaps prior to taking a stage,um, or just after, what, what is
more distracting to you?
I mean, I've always, my wholelife paid a whole lot more
attention to criticism than topraise.
And I think that that's not,it's not unusual, perhaps,
particularly for women.
You know, I mean, I remember asa teacher a long time ago, I
would get evaluations, you know,and I might have, you know, 99%

(54:24):
of the class would say this wasfabulous and on and on.
And there'd be one student, youknow, who was unhappy about
something.
And I would, you know, wake upat three in the morning and
wonder, you know, about thatstudent and what I could do in
all of this.
So, and some of that also has todo with what my friend and
colleague, uh, Peggy McIntoshhas written about called feeling
like a fraud.

(54:44):
And the fact that oftentimespeople who are, who don't have,
you know, white male privilegecan feel very fraudulent when in
positions of power, like beingat speaking at a podium.
And in the early years I had alot of that, you know, that
somebody was going to come up onstage and say, you know, she
doesn't know where she's talkingabout, get her off the stage and

(55:05):
is that kind of thing that itwas, um, it's, I think it's just
becomes something that is aproblem for a lot of a lot of
women and people of color andpeople who don't, as I say,
don't have, I mean with whitemale privilege comes the
assumption that if you'respeaking at a podium that you
are the authority and that youknow, you do have a right to be

(55:25):
there.
So it's feeling like you have aright to be there.
That I think is really, uh, is aproblem often for people and
that's something that, um, needsreally needs to change.
And Jean, as a performer, youobviously prepare for every
lecture that you present and yetthe unexpected can happen.
What is something unexpectedthat has happened to you as, as

(55:46):
you've presented a lecture?
A tornado came once while I wasgiving a lecture.
So that was unexpected andluckily I was in a brick brick
building, but we did lose power.
So, uh, that, that was veryunexpected.
That may be the most unexpectedthing that happened.
Um, yeah.
Um, other than that, um, Oh, youknow, I, uh, well I mean one,

(56:10):
one time after a lecture that Iwas giving in Arizona, this, um,
w w lovely woman walked down theaisle toward me and I realized
that she had been, or we, shehad been the foreign exchange
student in my high school andwe'd been friends and hadn't
seen each other in 50 years.
And, and so we had a lovelyreconnection and she'd seen the
ad for the lecture and she cameto the lecture and then she came

(56:32):
up to say hello.
So those kinds of unexpectedthings have happened, but you
know, there's, yeah.
Huh.
Better than the tornado.
What is one tweet or commentthat still stands out to you
because of its impact, whethergood or bad or for whatever
reason?

Speaker 6 (56:50):
Yeah.

Well, it won't be a tweet.
Um, comment.
Um, I mean, I thought, sure ifthis is about this, but I mean,
w I used to be very afraid ofhostility.
I was very afraid of publicspeaking when I started out.
Um, and I realized that what Iwas really afraid of was, you
know, hostility.
And then eventually, you know, Iwould encounter it and it would

(57:15):
be OK and I'd survive and, youknow, life went on.
And so I remember giving it, uh,speaking to a group of
advertisers, um, once, whichdidn't happen very often.
I wasn't overwhelmed withinvitations.
And there was a, at the end ofthe lecture, there were some
questions and the response wasfine, it was good.
But a man came up to me and, uh,this was, I don't know, 30 years
ago, so to my eyes then heseemed old, which means he was

(57:38):
probably like my age now.
And, um, and he was, you know,he was white and had gray hair
and, and I thought, Oh boy, hereit comes, you know, he's gonna
come up and say something, youknow, horrible.
And he came up to me and he said, um, you just changed a
lifetime's experience in onehour.

(57:59):
And I just, obviously I've neverforgotten it.
First of all, I was so touchedby it and also it was such a
wonderful kind of example to meof my own stereotyping, you
know, that I mean, I wasexpecting something entirely
different.
So I was projecting all of thatonto him and in fact, it was
something very much theopposite.
So that was a meaningful, youknow, for both those reasons.

(58:22):
Very meaningful.
[inaudible] just a few morequestions.
Do you, thank you so much.
Um, how do you move on fromfailure?
Is there anybody who hasn't hadan experience like that?
Right.
Which is why I ask everyone thequestion.
Yeah, I remember, I mean, I'vehad plenty of experiences with
failure, right?
I remember going to college andgetting a D on my first paper
and I just, I just said, didn'tknow where to make of it.

(58:45):
You know, it was so shocking.
Um, you guys had always donereally well in school.
Um, and, but, you know, I, Iguess I probably learned
something from it.
And then I learned later thatthat was something this teacher
tended to do to sort of shake usall up.
But, um, other, I think one justsort of one example was when I
sold my first book, uh, therewas a, the editor who bought it

(59:06):
was, you know, was fired.
And then it went to anothereditor and the other editor was
a man and he didn't like it.
And, um, and eventually he, um,he, I sent him the manuscript
and he kept writing on, in thehole through the margins.
What about men?
What about men?
And it was sort of like, thiswas a book about women, but Oh,
well.
Um, and, uh, and, and soeventually he rejected it.

(59:27):
And I remember my agent, whosehas become a really good friend,
I remember being in an airportprobably in Atlanta, us, and
says where I was allowed at thetime and getting the call from
her.
And I remember her saying to me,you're going to have a really
bad day, but don't let it bemore than that because we are
going to resell this book andit's all going to be fine.
Um, but you know, so go aheadand, you know, suffered this bad

(59:50):
day, but then, you know, pickyourself up and keep on going.
And that was such, such goodadvice.
And in fact, we did resell thebook and got a much better
editor and all sorts of, youknow, it worked out fine, but
that was, that was certainly, Ihad an overwhelming sense of
failure, uh, that day.
So I think it's, you know, the,the thing that, you know, what
everybody says, you know, youjust sort of, I think it's okay

(01:00:11):
to kind of give yourself alittle time to kind of say,
okay, this was really bad andthis hurt my feelings, or this
was whatever.
But, um, but it isn't who I amand I'm gonna, you know, I'm
going to keep going from here.
And you're underscoring theimportance of separating who you
are as a person from what youdo.
And I think performers who, whoare listening would relate to

(01:00:32):
that idea as well.
You, you did get nervous whenyou would speak, you know, and,
and, and yet you, you've had anaccomplished career and, and one
doesn't have to be perfect or,um, or come across as perfect.
Um, since, since we can't be,um, which was a lot of what your
work talks about to begin withthat we can, no, we can not
achieve any sort of perfection.
That's right.

(01:00:53):
And another thing that I justwant to mention to get in here
at some point is that, um, I, Icould never have done, uh, what
I've done or, or had the lifeI've had without the, um, the
love and support of my womenfriends.
You know, that I have reallyextraordinarily longterm, uh,
close friendships.
Not that I reframed this withmen, I do, but it's been the

(01:01:13):
friendships with women that havereally supported me for, you
know, for really my whole life.
I mean, I still am close with myhigh school friends.
Um, and, uh, that's just, youknow, th th that's just kept me
going because these are peoplewho really do know me and, you
know, and love me anyway.
So, you know, it's that, that Ithink is very important.

(01:01:36):
And I also want to mention thatI have, um, I also have a
daughter who's 32 years old and,um, and who's fabulous and that
I feel incredibly blessed andlucky to have her and that, you
know, that that relationship hasalso been an incredibly
important sort of, um, teachingkind of relationship for me from
the moment she was born.
You know, that leads to thenext, next question.

(01:01:59):
Have you ever had what, what youwould say was a transformative
moment in your work or your lifeand if so, what was it?

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
[inaudible]

Jean Kilbourne (01:02:08):
well, I mean, um, I mean, this goes back I
guess to, uh, to something wetalked about earlier where I,
you know, I'll, I'll go a littlefurther.
Um, when I mentioned that ofalcoholism in my family and that
sort of thing, which is that I'm, uh, I'm a sober alcoholic and
I've been sober for 43 years, soI certainly had a transformative
moment 43 years ago.

(01:02:29):
Uh, and, and really, uh, youknow, a paradigm shift when I,
uh, I was in the middle stagesof the disease.
I hadn't, you know, I was veryhigh functioning.
I was a teacher.
I was, you know, done.
Uh, I hadn't done anything toohorrible.
I hadn't, you know, had all ofthat was probably waiting to
happen, but it hadn't.
Uh, but what happened was anincredible shift in my

(01:02:51):
perspective.
And I really realized that thiswas, um, I, I used to say that
without alcohol I'd put a gun tomy head and I had a moment of
realizing that alcohol was thegun.
And once I got that, I was ableto stop drinking and then never
pick up a drink again.
And, and that wasn't, um, itwasn't that difficult.

(01:03:15):
It wasn't actually nearly asdifficult as quitting smoking,
uh, because it, because itinvolved that shift in
perspective.
You know, once I got that it wasthe gun, I put it down.

Speaker 6 (01:03:25):
Hmm.

Um, sometimes the things that we look to in
our lives that's comfort areactually the things that are
hurting us.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
[inaudible] well, last question.
Um, Jean in brief, what wouldyou say you have learned about
yourself from your particularwork as a lecturer and as an
advocate?

Speaker 6 (01:03:45):
Yeah,

I think I've, I think I've learned that I've,
um, am less afraid than I, thanI used to be or thought I was,
you know, that there've beenthe, cause I really was in the
very beginning, I was reallyquite terrified of public
speaking.
I was, so, I was actually always, um, pretty good at it, which
didn't matter really.
I was just, it was, I, I wasnervous enough that when I went

(01:04:11):
to my first big lecture, youknow, were like 400 people.
I seriously considered drivingoff the road, you know, not to
kill myself, but just to beincapacitated.
Um, so I just, you know, so, butI kept doing it because I've
always loved Eleanor Roosevelt'swonderful lines.
Something like, you must do thething you think you cannot do.
You know, every time you stopand look fear in the face, you

(01:04:34):
know, you can, uh, I'mbutchering her quote, but it's a
wonderful quote about, uh,persisting, you know, even if
you're afraid.
And so the fact that I feltpassionately about what I had to
say, and even though my heartwas pounding and I had to stand
behind the podium because myknees were shaking, I, I just
did it.
And gradually, uh, became usedto it.

(01:04:56):
The, all the things I dreadedhappened and that was OK.
you know, I managed to, youknow, cope with them all.
And um, you know, that I guessthat has made me feel, um, just,
um, much, uh, much less afraidthan I used to be.
Well, I'm glad that you didpersist.

(01:05:17):
I for one, and I know I knowmillions of others because your,
your videos and your lectureshave reached millions of people
and I'm sure we'll continue toimpact many, many more.
I speak to four or five, six,seven year olds about the
importance of thinking about thecommercials that they see and
the kinds of themes and programsthat they watch.
And I speak with from 70[inaudible] from seven to 70

(01:05:39):
year olds.
I'm sure about the kind ofimpact, um, of the, of the, the
culture in which we live and thethemes and ideas that permeate
our culture.
Um, and if I trace back theorigins of that, it, it really
did start with with your video.
So thank you very much for, um,the impact you've had in my life

(01:06:01):
and thank you so much for takingthe time to speak with me today
and um, and to share thisconversation with, with
listeners and I, I'm trustingthat it will be one of the
things that hopefully has moreof a positive impact along with
all of your other work.
Thank you so much, Jean.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure.

Speaker 7 (01:06:20):
[inaudible]

my thanks again to dr Jean Kilborne for taking
the time to join me in thisconversation.

Speaker 7 (01:06:26):
[inaudible]

and thank you for listening.

Speaker 7 (01:06:28):
Hmm.

You can learn more about Jean's work on her
website, Jean kilborne.com andher latest version of the film
killing us softly four can befound at the media education
foundation, media ed.org Jean'sbooks can't find me.
Love how advertising changes theway we think and feel and so
sexy so soon.

(01:06:49):
The new sexualized childhood andwhat parents can do to protect
their kids can be found whereverbooks are sold.
For more information about themanage the moment podcast, you
can see the episode notes forthis broadcast and you can
follow us on social media andI'm on Twitter and Instagram at
dr Shep.
You can subscribe to thispodcast for free just by

(01:07:11):
clicking the subscribe buttonwherever you're listening to
this podcast, and then you'll besure to get the newest episodes
as soon as they're uploaded andstay tuned for a quick preview
of our next episode.
Thanks so much for listening andtaking the time to share these
moments with us.
Until next time

Speaker 7 (01:07:27):
[inaudible].

Speaker 8 (01:07:36):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
On the next episode of the manage the moment
podcasts, we will hear fromtelevision host and
correspondent writer and adoredhost of the immensely popular
podcast ologies Ali ward.
Going back to being a woman inperformance like that to me was
what was the drivers.
I wanted to have a voice and youknow, I acted for a little bit

(01:08:03):
and I was just saying otherpeople's words and I thought
this isn't the same as having avoice.
And so I think having a voice issuch a privilege and I think
that using it authentically andusing it to maybe shine a light
on things that you don't want totalk about is, is kind of a way

(01:08:25):
to honor that purplish.
Because if you have theprivilege of having a platform,
you have a megaphone and youdon't say anything risky into
it, that megaphone was onlyserving you.
Allie joins us on the nextepisode.
Thanks again for listening untilnext time.
Okay.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Jean Kilbourne - Pioneering Activist, Trailblazer, Popular Tedx Speaker & Writer