December 9, 2019 • 71 mins
Harrison Funk is a photojournalist, photographer, and documentary photographer whose name you may be familiar with, but his work you most certainly are, given that some of his images have been seen by billions of people around the globe. Harrison's work includes many of the most notable artists of the 21st century. He has photographed some of the most famous faces and captured moments that no one else would see if it was not for his lens. Harrison's approach to his work has driven him to document and photograph people, times, and events in ways that have not been done before.
In our two part series, Harrison shares his thoughts about how visual arts can define its generation and how some of those efforts have changed over the generations as well.
You can see many of Harrison's portraits on his Instagram page listed in the episode notes below, and you can hear Harrison's thoughts about preparing to be the best that you can be in this first of our two part conversation.
Follow on Twitter @drshepp
Follow on Instagram @drshepp
See some of Harrison's work on Instagram
Learn more about Harrison at http://www.harrisonfunk.com/
Learn more about Dr. Shepp at SportandPerform.com
Podcast transcripts coming soon at: ManageTheMoment.net
#ManageTheMoment YouTube Channel
Music by Brad Buxer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shepp (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment
conversations in performancepsychology.
I'm Dr.
Sari Shepphird.
I was, I was really fortunatebecause as I told you the
stories of how I started, I wentright to the top.
You know, my clients were huge.
(00:30):
If you're a, if you're anartist, any client, singer,
painter, poser, um, actor,doesn't matter if you have that
talent and, and you can use itand you can and you can draw on
all those things that make youtalent.
(00:50):
Do it.
(00:52):
That's Harrison Funk, a portrait photographer, photo
journalist, film director anddocumentary photographer, whose
name you may be familiar with,but his work you most certainly
are given that some of hisimages have been seen by
billions of people around theglobe.
Harrison's work includes many ofthe most notable artists of the
21st century.
And his approach to his work hasdriven him to document and
(01:14):
photograph people times andevents in ways that have not
been done before.
In our two part series, Harrisonshares his thoughts about how
visual arts can define itsgeneration and how some of those
efforts have changed over thegenerations as well.
You can see many of Harrison'sportraits on his Instagram page
listed in the episode notes,photo underscore icon, and you
(01:38):
can hear Harrison's thoughtsabout preparing to be the best
that you can be in this first ofour two part conversation.
Hi Harrison.
Thanks for joining me today.
Harrison F. (01:46):
Hi Sari.
Great to be here.
(01:50):
You are a photographer and a historian.
You photograph some of the mostfamous faces and captured
moments that no one else wouldsee if it was not for your lens.
How did you ready yourself forthese encounters?
Harrison F. (02:03):
Sleepless nights, many, many, many sleepless
nights, lots of prep.
Um, honestly, I, I, I can'tbegin to tell you how difficult
it was for me to get on set inthe earliest days of my career.
I was nervous beyond belief.
I, you know, I was neverstarstruck.
(02:25):
I grew up around a lot of stars.
I, I knew, um, I think one ofthe first major, major
performers I met when I was akid was Frank Sinatra.
Um, and, and you know, my dadused to say, Hey, when, you
know, when you, my dad was anattorney and a judge, and he
(02:47):
used to say he knew a lot of,you know, those kinds of people.
He said, when, when, when youget tongue tied, when you, or
you're, you're meeting somebodyyou know, of, of fame for the
first time, just remember theyall go to the bathroom the same
way and just picture them whenthey're with their pants around
(03:08):
their ankles.
And it's true.
I mean, it, it got me over thatinitial sort of stage fright.
Um, I, you know, I don't thinkthere's a, an artist that I
haven't met that then if I mettoday, it would, it would have
me tongue tied.
(03:29):
Um, and I find, you know, that'shelped me.
I, I do a fair amount of, ofpublic speaking, lecturing and
such.
And, um, I found that that helpsme as well.
I, you know, I, I don't, I don'ttend to be, um, challenged by a
big group.
Um, the challenge is when theyask questions, whether I'll be
(03:52):
able to give them answers,especially in an academic
setting, if I'll be able to givethem answers that actually
enhance their experience.
Dr. Shepp (04:00):
Some of your preparation, I'm wondering if it
came from watching your unclewho was a famous Broadway
photographer.
Did you learn anything about howto capture a moment from him?
Harrison F. (04:10):
You know, he was a very, a blend, very outgoing,
very big personality kinda guythat really, I don't think I
ever really talked about it withhim except, you know, I asked
him some stories about, um,actors that, that I admired, um,
(04:33):
who he was friends with.
And, and the way he discussedthem was so casually is as, you
know, just as he would betalking about, um, any, uh, any
friend, um, didn't matter ifthey were a star of stage and
screen the, you know, they were,they were just, they were just
somebody he knew.
And, and I kind of realized, Imean, I, I, I adopted that
(04:58):
perspective.
They're people.
And there are people with atalent, there are people with,
with an ability, there arepeople to be admired for that
talent and that ability a lot oftimes, I mean, there are a lot
of people out there that, um,who, who, you know, that are,
that become stars that I mightnot be friends with, I might not
(05:20):
want to be friends with, butmore often than not, I think
artists relate to each other.
And I think that that's part ofwhat makes it easy.
I, I, I think I've drawn on thatmore than anything.
Um, you know, Leo had a, had agreat sense of, of, of, uh,
understanding people for whothey were or who they are.
(05:41):
I, I did take something fromthat, but I think I learned, I
learned by doing, uh, I learnedby being in front of people.
Um, um, I'm trying to think whothe first person, the first
really famous person Iphotographed was, um, I think
(06:01):
Charles Nelson Reilly, I don'teven know if you know who that
is,
Dr. Shepp (06:05):
Sure.
"Match game".
Harrison F. (06:07):
Exactly.
And Hollywood squares as well.
Um, and I, most people don'tprobably remember him for
anything but that, but he was agreat Broadway actor.
Um, he was in the original helloDolly.
And, um, he, he did a couple ofother shows on Broadway and I
(06:29):
was in high school and a friendof mine, we all, we all worked
for the school paper.
And a friend of mine had an auntwho was the telephone operator
at, I want to say the Algonquinhotel in New York.
And she got to meet a lot ofactors and offered my friend to,
(06:54):
you know, would we like tointerview Charles?
And she said, only if I canbring Harrison along to take
some pictures.
And so they arranged it.
We went backstage, he was doinga show, uh, we went down to the
theater and, and were ledbackstage and he was the most
(07:15):
just ingratiating person I hadhad met in, in any position of,
of, um, fame or you know,recognition.
Um, I mentioned, you know who Imentioned, my, my uncle Leo.
And immediately he says, Oh myGod, are you gonna put me
(07:37):
through the paces?
Like he does.
So it was easy.
It, you know, and I realize I,at that point I kinda got beaten
by the bug of shootingcelebrities.
How do you know how to challengemyself to make portraits of them
that were different than otherportraits that had previously
been done?
(07:58):
Um, so it was always a matterof, of really challenging myself
and driving myself to dosomething different and better
than something that hadpreviously been done.
This turned into, um, theadviser from the paper was
really excited that we were ableto get, get a major star, um,
(08:21):
for an interview.
And it turned into a, a, aseries that we started doing of,
you know, people that wereshaping our lives in high
school.
And the next group was the CBSnewsroom in, in New York.
So the CBS evening news and I,you know, I got to shoot
(08:45):
everybody, including WalterCronkite.
Um, unfortunately, some of thosepictures, including the, the
images of Walter Cronkite are tothe ages.
Another story.
Uh, but, um, there was a ladythat worked for CVS, like, yes.
Um, her name was Linda Ellerby.
(09:06):
I just thought it was a greatname.
Um, and she asked if I canphotograph her at her desk on
the phone.
And I kept trying to figure outan angle to take a picture of
somebody on the phone at theirdesk cause they were such, you
know, they're kind of tritepictures, but I hadn't planned
any of this.
I, we just kind of showed up andwe weren't sure I had in my
mind, okay, I'm going to do thisin the newsroom.
(09:27):
I never thought that anybodywould challenge me, you know.
Um, I'm a high school kid.
One on one.
I think I'm going to take theworld by storm.
But, but it happened.
It was great.
Um, and, and the series wassuccessful.
We ran, we ran quite a fewarticles, you know, interviews
with people that influenced ourlives.
Uh, a few years later, um, I hada friends, I guess it was, it
(09:56):
was a friend's little sister wasdoing the same.
I carried on, you know, she wasquite a few years behind us and
I think I was probably in myearly twenties.
She was doing, uh, an interviewwith Arlo Guthrie and I knew
Arlo because I'd photographedhim for, for life magazine
(10:20):
shortly before that.
And she, she called me and sheasked if I would mind, she got
permission from the advisor forthe paper if I could come back
and, and reprise my rolephotographing, you know, famous
people for the paper.
And uh, of course I agreed and,and we, you know, went to, uh,
(10:44):
when I went out to shoot R, O, N, N she's trying to interview
him and he and I are havingconversations, side
conversations about musichistory and about New York and
upstate New York and the, thefolk scene and his father.
And, and she's sitting therelistening and she, she said, um,
(11:08):
can I ask a question?
And we both looked at her andsaid, no.
And went right back to theconversation that we both got
up.
And of course she got her, herquestions in and we totally
flustered her and he made agreat point.
He said, there are two thingsyou have to know about
interviewing.
Number one, never ask asongwriter to explain a song.
(11:34):
And always be able to think onyour feet and jump right back to
where you were before you wereinterrupted or, or before you
got flustered as aphotojournalist.
And as a photographer, as aportraitist, I realized that was
some of the best advice youcould ever give a journalist,
(11:55):
let alone, you know, someone inthe arts.
Um, so that's, you know, thatwas part of part of my, my
discovery of how to prep.
I know that when I, um, some ofthe earliest bands I worked with
, um, you know, as a teenager,they each led to bigger, bigger
(12:16):
artists.
And I would lay awake at nightthe night before I do, uh, a
shoot, especially with a bandshoot.
If I was going on the road, youknow, it was like no big deal.
Um, I would say say to myself,I've shot, you know, hundreds of
shows live, I can do this.
(12:37):
What am I going to look forthat's different?
And that was the thing, I had tofigure out what was different
about the show that I canphotograph that make, that, that
would make that artist lookamazing.
And I learned a trick, which isdon't shoot the first show and
(12:59):
if he can, if you're going ontour with, I mean, you know, I'm
a, I have been a tourphotographer for, you know,
however many years, 40.
Um, and I, I every tour I go on,I want to see minimum five
rehearsals before I actuallystart shooting.
(13:20):
If I have to join a tour in themiddle, I will go out there and
I will, if I haven't seen theshow already, I will spend the
first night with, with a camerain hand.
But mostly just watching andmaking mental notes about what I
want to photograph that makesthis unique.
(13:41):
And, um, I had a productionmanager come up to me one time
during a, exactly that, thefirst night of a, of a tour,
which I had joined in themiddle.
And he says, we're paying you afortune and you're standing here
watching the show.
What's the deal?
And I said, listen, if I don'ttell you how to run the staging,
(14:05):
please don't tell me how to domy job.
And I turned my back on him andwalked away and went to watch
the show from a different place.
Well, the artist having seenthis rather tense exchange tells
him that he should just let medo what I do because I, you
(14:26):
know, I won awards for what Ido.
Obviously I know what I'm doingand I never, I, I, you know,
I've, I, I think that was theone and only time somebody
questioned that method, butit's, it's pretty, you know,
prep is a big thing.
(14:46):
Um, you, you asked the questionabout how do I prep, well, when
I do portrait session, um, if Iwere going to shoot you, I would
want to learn every single thingabout you, everything you know,
from your, from your earliestdays onward, what basically, you
know, what makes you who you areand then try to incorporate as
(15:09):
much of that with, you know,your present life.
Um, as a performancepsychologist and maybe one of
these days I'll get to do aportrait of you.
Um, but I'll, I'll do every bitof research, you know, that I,
that I possibly can.
(15:30):
And sometimes it's verydifficult.
Sometimes you're photographingpeople that, that were nothing.
Even with the internet wherenothing is available, you know,
you're, you're trying to findout something about them and,
and, and you just, you justcan't.
Um, but you know, you, you, theidea for me is I want to go out
(15:52):
there and, and know the personthat I'm photographing, know
what they're about and know,also know how the pictures are
going to be used, why they'rebeing used.
We know what's, what's, let'ssay I shoot an artist who's,
who's been photographed, youknow, by 25 other photographers
(16:14):
and, and is, is tremendouslyfamous, has won awards and, and
in lauded for their, for theirabilities over and over and over
again.
What am I going to look at?
I'm going to look at what makesthem unique and what makes, what
will make this picture differentfrom everything else that's been
(16:36):
done.
Or I'm going to look ateverything that's been done and
see one that I like and improveon that
Speaker 3 (16:44):
[inaudible]
Harrison F. (16:45):
tremendous like tenfold.
Um, you have to know, you know,their color palette is important
there.
Um, yeah.
And, and if it's, if it'ssomething that, that I don't
feel I can work with, I canoften put them in front of a
black background in like an aninfinity, you know, a background
(17:07):
that looks like it goes oninfinitely into oblivion, uh, to
make that work.
I'm giving you all my secretshere.
Dr. Shepp (17:17):
Well, it's so, it's so amazing to hear you describe
your process because first ofall, it's one that you certainly
own.
You don't hesitate to own yourown process, which is important
for any performer, but it's alsoone that you took the time to
conceive based on not just theway you wanted your work to be
(17:39):
received, but the kind of storyyou want to tell, the kind of
impact that you want to make.
Harrison F. (17:47):
It's more than cerebral.
So if, I mean, I don't think Icould have answered this
question as well 30 years agobecause I probably hadn't
thought about it as much as Ihave over the course of my
(18:08):
career.
But sure.
It's something that I do thinkabout.
I do, I do consider every time Imake a picture, I also look at
location, including the, theenvironment of a subject in the
(18:31):
picture is often very important.
One of my favorite pictures ofMichael Jackson is a very
impromptu picture taken while Iwas actually directing a
television special at the ranch.
(18:51):
It was, um, it, well that,that's another story in itself.
Um, MTV had done, had, hadagreed with contract with
Michael to do a weekend, aweekend at Neverland Valley and
that was the name of his ranch.
(19:11):
And um, they had, they hadsponsored a video contest and we
had to photograph all the videowinters with Michael, but MTV at
the same time was doing a behindthe scenes thing at the ranch
(19:34):
with Michael.
And Michael was concerned that,that he would not like the way
they would light him.
So he told me to go out and tellthem that I was going to light
and direct over there, their ownpeople.
And I was amazed.
(19:55):
The producer just looked at me,draw dropped and said, sure, if
that's what, if that's what ittakes to get what Michael wants.
You know what Michael will giveus, we'll do it.
So I go out and I said, yourlighting is completely wrong.
They had very harsh lights onhim.
(20:16):
I said, I need, um, I knew, Iknew they had it because it was,
we had a list of requirementsthat they bring.
Um, and if they had an, I hadone up at the ranch anyway, um,
a 12 by 12 silk, which is a biggigantic, 12 foot by 12 foot,
um, uh, soft reflector.
(20:37):
Well, um, shoot through, um, tosoften the light.
And um, I said I need that upand I, you know, I, I want that
here and here and here.
Uh, and I, I want to removethese lights.
And nobody even questioned didthey, they went along with it
(20:57):
very nicely.
Michael comes out, I went insideto tell him that, that, that
they were ready for him and welit it and he said, are you
sure?
I said, absolutely, you'll loveit.
And he, he comes out and I hadput a Mark down where I wanted
him to stand.
We were going to lead in the,the winners from these videos.
(21:22):
And he's standing there and he'slooking around and the wind is
blowing his hair and he'slooking at the two, a little
suicide.
And I said, wait, hold on, keepthe, keep the talent off the
set.
I'm going to shoot.
Michael and I, I had a stillcamera as always, and I just
picked it up and did somewonderful portraits of Michael
in front of the carousel at theranch.
(21:45):
Really just, you know,impromptu, not, not staged real,
I mean the lighting was done and, and whatever, but Michael just
stood there naturally, you know,in the breeze.
And there's a picture of himsmiling, which gives away how he
felt about the environment.
(22:06):
You know, the, the, the carouseland he's looking off to the side
and you know, he's got that,that, you know, trademark smile
that he would occasionally puton, you know, some of my
favorite portraits are justimprovised.
(22:27):
Um, I have a portrait of, of um,Vincent Price shot the morning
after he did the, uh, voiceoverfor thriller and, uh, it was
shot for, it was an afterthoughtthat was wanted by the record
label and they wanted him inthis very cluttered recording
(22:51):
studio with all this, all theselight stands and um,
microphones, et cetera.
And, and I w I came in and I setup lights and I figured out,
right, it'll work, but it's notwhat I really want.
What I really want is justVincent looking mysterious in
front of a black backdrop.
(23:13):
And, uh, I got a lot of, a lotof pushback from, from Epic, uh,
from the, the art department onthat.
And now we want to use thispicture this way and okay, fine.
So they, they got their pictureand you know, 10 years later I'm
working on an exhibition with afriend of mine who is an
(23:37):
attorney and also a greatphotographer.
He was one of my studentsactually, and I helped him set
up a, I'm a print lab and, um, aphoto studio in his house.
And, um, we're working, we'reprinting, uh, an exhibition that
I'm about to do and, and we'retalking about this picture and,
(23:59):
and um, he remembered that Itold him that I really wanted
the picture against a starkblack backdrop.
Two days later I, I come backdown to his house and, and ready
to start making prints and heshows me he had spent at least
15 hours turning the backdropblack or the background black,
(24:25):
perfectly outlining Vinsonprices, body.
There's, you can't even tellthat it was not shot this way.
This is, it's one of thegreatest retouch jobs I think
I've ever seen in my life.
And I'm looking at it right now.
Um, it, it, it hangs in myoffice across from my computer
(24:48):
and I, you know, it sits incontrast on the wall too.
There's a picture of Michaelwith his arms outstretched in
front of a white backdrop, whichmost people that know Michael's
history also know was the coverof the Memorial book from his
(25:11):
funeral.
And I, I find it fitting thatthese two pictures hang
juxtaposed one with a starkblack background and one was a
stark white background.
Um, the, the picture of Michaelwas other than other than
(25:31):
lighting that had been, youknow, determined, um, by years
of just knowing how tophotograph him.
Um, there was, there was no realprep.
It was, it was like, okay,Michael, stand there for a
second.
And he stood there, threw hisarms out and he, he kind of
(25:53):
turned to each side and startedsinging to himself and I shot
and we were done in 15 minutes.
You know, the, the, the, itdidn't require a whole lot of
major, major prep.
How do I prep myself?
(26:14):
Um, every time I photographanybody, it's, it's a challenge.
It's knowing, you know, can I,can I make them laugh?
I think I've become, uh, a verygood standup comedian, but even
then, because it's, it's, it'sall improv.
I have to figure out, I actuallytook an improv class as it's
(26:37):
going to ask back in the day.
Yes.
I, I studied in and I, I, youknow, I, I, um, I wanted to
learn, you know, the, the finerpoints of, of great improv.
Um, and, and so I would, youknow, part of my prep is knowing
that that's that part of knowingabout the person.
(27:01):
What is it that might make themreact?
Dr. Shepp (27:05):
Okay.
Harrison F. (27:05):
Because you want to, you want to get a genuine
reaction out of them.
If in a still photograph, youwant to draw out their
personality.
Um, in some cases, drawing outtheir personality can mean, um,
having them resting on a hand orto, uh, contemplating the floor.
(27:26):
You just don't want them toappear bored.
You know, contemplative is fine,but board is not fine.
Well, board buddies you find,depending on the, you know,
board might be fine depending onthe mood you're, you're trying
to, you're trying to depict,it's try it.
For me it's, it's knowing theperson, knowing what they will
(27:50):
react to, what they might find.
Um, interesting, sad, happy,whatever.
Um, and drawing out thatperformance.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
Well, it's interesting because many
performers will say that theyprepare a great deal in advance
for the moment of performancebecause it allows them to be
more spontaneous and present in,in the moment.
And it, it sounds like you notonly have a spontaneous eye,
which of course you do, but partof the way you allow yourself
that spontaneity is, is throughthe preparation that you do
(28:26):
about your subject.
Harrison F. (28:28):
Absolutely true.
And I don't think I could do it.
I don't know if I could do itany other way.
I think I've been doing this forso many years that I think this
is just what comes naturally.
[inaudible] um, interesting.
It's interesting to know that I,I live a multifaceted life as an
(28:56):
artist.
I am portraitist photojournalist, video director or film
director, um, and documentaryphotographer and hopefully being
a good documentary photographermeans also being an adept
(29:20):
photojournalist.
But when I do a portrait ofsomeone, um, I, my prep is, is,
is the same, maybe even greaterthan when I document an event or
shoot stills on a, on a film orvideo or um, cover candidates on
(29:45):
a campaign or whatever it maybe.
I'll look for those momentswithin those events where I can
make portraits static or maybenot so static looking but, but
static images of, of uh, of aperson and I don't care how you
(30:08):
want to define it.
Uh, to me, politicians are ourperformers.
Sure.
Because the, they need tocommunicate and connect in that
moment while they haveeveryone's attention, there has
to be an awareness of thedelivery of, of their
information in, in a particularmoment of time.
Anyone that that is out there inpublic presenting themselves is
(30:35):
in some way performing.
It has to prepare for thatperformance.
And I, in order to make thosepictures, have to know enough
about what that presentation orperformance really is, to know
what I have to photograph to, tolet the rest of the world know
it.
Um, and I, that's, you know,part of, part of me is wanting
(30:59):
to show behind the scenes morethan just what anybody sees by
going to a concert.
Um, or by going to, uh, to, uh,uh, a speech.
Everybody sees that, but my jobis to show whatever we doesn't
see.
(31:19):
Right.
Right.
And that includes, you know,okay, when I'm hired to
photograph, you know, um, JimmySmith's band, um, and, and Jimmy
Smith, if you're listening,whoever you may be, um, this is
for you seriously, because Igather Siri that a lot of your
(31:40):
listeners are actually artistsand performers.
You know, if somebody islistening out there, I don't
care if it's me or somebody elsethat you, that you hire to take
your pictures.
You've got probably threedifferent kinds of pictures that
you need.
One is the one that makes youlook, um, most like your stage
(32:01):
persona most like, or how, howyou want the audience to
perceive you.
The second is your, yourapproachable persona.
The, the that which makes youlovable by your, by your
audience.
You know, I don't care whetheryou are like Ozzy biting the
(32:24):
heads off of bats or doves orwhatever, he bit, he's a lovable
guy.
He's Ozzy, he is a lovable guy.
And, and, and I, I hate to breakthe bubble here, but, but you
know, um, he's great fun tophotograph and, and um, he,
(32:48):
there's an approachable side tohim.
Um, then, and the third thing isthere is that which defines you
for the quality of yourperformance, your music,
whatever.
And if you can bring all threeof those together in, in a photo
shoot or you can bring thosethree together in a series of
(33:11):
shoots, you're doing well, yougot people looking at you and
understanding you and probablybuying your records.
And this brings me to, can Ibring up what we were discussing
the other day?
Sure.
Of course.
Okay.
So this brings up a veryimportant point that sadly, and,
(33:39):
and I apologize to any, um, anymillennials I'm offending
because it's not really justaimed at your generation,
although it seems like this hashappened in the last, um, 20
years that mediocrity has becomeacceptable.
(34:01):
And when we talk about preparingfor photography or, or, or
video, I don't see howmediocrity can be acceptable.
Have you ever looked at, andsorry, feel free to answer, but,
but have you ever watched thenews and seen a news report shot
(34:25):
on a cell phone that istransmitted by satellite from
wherever?
Sure.
Okay.
It's taking images of thetornado or whatever it might be.
Yeah, exactly.
They're pixelated.
Um, the signal keeps cutting inand out.
That's not quality journalism,nor is shooting a music video on
(34:51):
an iPhone quality production.
But you're getting it done.
And the novelty of doing itmight have at one point been
acceptable.
If I were your manager, yourrecord label, your marketing
person, I would say, I thinkyou're daft, you know, um, there
(35:13):
are a lot of novelties outthere.
You can walk down seventh Avenueand find loads of novelty shops.
Is it quality merchandise?
Now maybe awkward is not, not annot an option to me.
Well, especially in your line ofwork because you're dealing with
perfectionist.
You're dealing with those whoare demanding excellence from
themselves and I'm imagining ofcourse demanding excellence from
(35:36):
the people that they work with.
Without a doubt.
Now, I didn't go to school forphotography.
Okay?
By some academic standards, I'mprobably not qualified to be a
photographer, but you have toknow the basics.
Now it's great when you meet anartist that knows photography.
(35:59):
Michael Jackson knew photographyvery well to the point where one
day he calls me and he says, Ineed you to go to go to the
camera store where we have anaccount and buy me one of
everything.
You have what you're going tostart photographing yourself.
He says, no, I want a fullsystem here at the ranch just in
(36:27):
case something ever happens toyours and you can't get out to
get what you need or just incase[inaudible].
And I thought it was masterfulbecause from then, then, then
forward, he knew so much heasked me, you know, he would ask
me for books to give him tipsand show him techniques and that
I used and he asked this ofother photographers too.
(36:51):
And I, I just thought that, youknow, any client that takes the
time to understand really isthe, is an easier client to
have.
And, you know, knowledge is soimportant and understanding the
art form is so important.
And I, I just, you know, from,from that point forward, I was
(37:11):
just blown away by, by, by histhirst for knowledge in every
field.
I me, you know, uh, a lot ofpeople don't know that Michael's
one of Michael's plans for afterthis is, it was, he wanted to go
back and get a degree in arthistory.
That right.
(37:32):
Yeah.
And, um, I don't know howserious he was about, about
pursuing it, but he, hecertainly seemed serious about
it when he was talking to meabout it.
Um, there's no substitute forunderstanding, you know, how
something, how something thatyou're a tool that you're using
(37:52):
to make your career or toenhance your career, how
important it is to understandthat and, and, and really be, be
fluid in the use of it.
(38:22):
I was, I was really fortunatebecause as I told you the
stories of, of how I started, Iwent right to the top.
You know, my clients were hugeGenesis stones, Billy Joel, uh,
you know, Peter Gabriel, um, andthen Michael Jackson and the
(38:43):
Jacksons and, you know,Commodores.
And, um, I can go on, but, um,and I'm not saying that that
it's, it's a bad thing to have atalent.
You know, if, if you're, uh, ifyou're an artist of any kind,
(39:04):
singer, painter, composer, um,actor, doesn't matter if you
have that talent and you can useit and you can, and you can draw
on all those things that makeyou talented.
Do it.
(39:26):
The one thing I will say toanybody, I don't care if you're
15 or 50, lose the ego or don'tacquire the ego.
I'd actually love to get into aconversation with you about
that.
I would love to hear your, yourperspective as a psychologist on
(39:49):
what I just said.
Because you know, to me, youearn, you earn the right to have
an ego.
There is a, um, there's a beliefin the new Testament that pride
(40:11):
comes before the fall.
Meaning those who are mostprideful will probably fall flat
on their faces quicker thansomebody who's not.
I don't know if I believe thatwholeheartedly, but I do believe
that there's something to it.
Um, I think that thatmaintaining some kind of
(40:34):
humility is really important.
If, if I go to photographsomebody, I, I can be as
commanding and I can directthem.
I can tell them this is, this isgorgeous.
Oh, I love your smile.
You look great.
Beautiful.
Turn your head a little to theright.
(40:54):
Thank you.
Beautiful.
Now if I say it with humility,like, Hey, you know, I know what
I'm doing.
Trust me.
It's gonna be amazing.
And then they fall down and theybreak their head.
I'm a, I'm not, I don't care howthey ask them to do it, but I'm
(41:16):
an idiot.
Right?
But if I, if I say it to themand I build up enough, like if I
put a couple of Apple boxes onthe floor and I have enough,
enough, you know, I've built aset for them to do that and
they're, and they're, you know,standing on their head, pushing
their nose in the air, whatever.
I'm thinking of those impossiblepose imaginable.
(41:36):
But if I do that and, and I takeall the precautions necessary to
make them, um, comfortable andto look good or even
uncomfortable, but you know, butsafe and look good.
I'm doing my job because I'mcreating, you know, I'm creating
something unusual.
(41:57):
Well, belief in your own abilityis different than arrogance,
right?
Having, having confidence inwhat you can do is different
than arrogance.
Right?
And that's the differencebetween, you know, I'm trying to
think of two artists to compare,but you know, there are artists
out there that are so arrogantthat they don't come off.
(42:20):
They're, they're talented butthey don't come off well.
And then there are artists outthere that know their abilities,
that are self, you know, very,um, very secure in themselves
that don't need to be arrogant.
And I think that's a veryimportant lesson to learn.
(42:43):
Um, Michael Jackson was neverarrogant that I could, I
remember, I don't think I everwatched him be arrogant.
Um, he said some things that I,you know, may not have been
perfect, but I, I never detectedarrogance.
Um, you know, there are otherartists out there that are
(43:08):
really arrogant.
Um, and um, I'm not even goingto go down that road because I
might have to shoot the nextweek, but except maybe Kanye
West who I just have nointention of shooting next week
or week after amongst time.
Um, well, among the peopleyou've photographed, there must
(43:31):
be a wide range of personalityand level of confidence.
So just even skimming yourInstagram page, we would see
David Bowie and Tina Turner andAmy Winehouse.
Freddie mercury, Stevie wonder,Johnny Depp, Nelson Mandela,
Elizabeth Taylor.
You've mentioned Billy Joel,George, Michael, Tina Turner.
You've mentioned Mick Jagger, uh, with the stones.
(43:53):
Um, France, Aretha van Halen,Bruce Springsteen, Janet
Jackson, Michael Jackson,president Obama.
I mean that's a wide range ofpersonality.
[inaudible][inaudible] there's,and there's people missing from
that as well.
Sure.
But sure.
Um, that's just a snapshot.
Um, I'm just thinking what I,what I, how I want to respond to
(44:14):
that.
Um, of all the people youmentioned, I never detected
tremendous ego or overbearingarrogance and relatively no
arrogance in any of them.
The man who I think exuded themost humility of that whole
(44:36):
group was probably NelsonMandela.
[inaudible] a man who changedthe world.
And um, president Obama wasextremely humble unless you got
them talking about playingbasketball.
(45:02):
He was, he is a very, very kind,decent person.
The present occupant of thewhite house.
I've, I've only photographedtwice and I photographed him
long before he ran for office.
(45:23):
Um, and back then he was prettyobnoxious to women, but you
know, on a one to one he wasfine, you know, he was just, he
was fine to, to, to photograph.
(45:43):
Um, so people are, people alsoshould have different sites
themselves to different people,you know.
Um, uh, and I imagine they wouldto you depending on their level
of trust in you.
W would you say that's true?
I do think that's true.
I think that um, one of thepeople, I, I I had a
(46:03):
conversation with um, uh, aboutrole affairs and politics was
Bano and um, my, my, my friendsand my entity is probably will
tell you I'm very political.
Um, I'm very, I'm very drawn tothe whole subject of politics,
(46:27):
world affairs, history.
Um, maybe in some cases to myown detriment, maybe not, but I
will say something about bonothat he knows his stuff and if
he disagrees with you, he letsyou know, he disagrees with you
because he knows his stuff.
(46:47):
He is, he's brilliant, but heany, this didn't happen to me,
but he can, I saw him putsomebody in their place with,
with style, but the personreally felt like they were let
known, you know, that theydidn't know what they were
(47:08):
talking about.
Yeah.
So, so of all people that I'vemet in my lifetime, you know,
and the, the vast number whohave been people, that's why
it's so easy to photograph thembecause I get to, I get to see
them as, as people, not asshining stars.
(47:28):
That's talent that they have.
That's the, that's theirabilities.
That's what you want to bringout in the picture.
That's the importance of makinga picture of somebody and, and
showing him or her for what heis or what she is.
Um, but honestly, uh, it's, it'sthe ability to get past that and
(47:55):
just see them as a person andthen create an image that, that
tells a story that is mostimportant is imaging your
subjects different when onedoes, where his or her beliefs
and emotions on their shirtsleeves versus one who might
(48:17):
have something to hide.
You know, I don't, you know,it's, it's, it's interesting I
try to get past that whenthey're in the studio or, or on
location.
I try to get past the, the thingthat they might be trying to
hide.
(48:38):
Um, and I'm trying to think ofsomebody who is, who is in that
situation that where they were,they were trying to hide a, a
personality trait or, or abelief or a, um, or, or
something that they had done.
Let me ask it differently if Iwould imagine you want your
subjects to feel as relaxed, asrelaxed as possible, but are
(48:59):
there times when tension makesfor the best image?
Absolutely true.
Yes, for sure.
Um, there's a story I read whenI was a kid about who was the,
uh, uh, Karsh.
He was a Canadian photographer,very prominent in the early part
(49:19):
of the 20th century for throughthe, through the middle, middle
of the 20th century.
He was, he was, uh, assigned tophotograph Winston Churchill and
Churchill was very relaxed.
Karsh didn't like the, didn'tlike the fact that Churchill
(49:41):
seem very relaxed.
He wanted to create Ascension.
So he walks over to Churchill,yanks the cat, yanks the cigar
at a Churchill's mouth, walksback to his camera and takes a
picture of Churchill's scowlingat the camera.
And I, I always thought, what agreat, what a great technique.
(50:02):
I, I've always looked forsomebody I'd have to do that
with.
And I never, never found it.
I never had anybody, you know,that, that I had to, I've had
people I've had to loosen up alittle bit, but, but never had
somebody who I wanted to createthe tension with where there was
none.
(50:22):
Um, but I think that's amasterful technique and I think
it's, you know, I think it'sgreat to be able to show kind of
tension, especially if, youknow, if the person has that
personality, demeanor, demeanor.
Um, I think, I think, you know,I want people to be comfortable
(50:46):
in front of the camera, but Ithink I want to draw out who
they really are, the essence oftheir personalities in front of
the camera.
So I, I'm trying to think ofsomebody who I would have to
loosen up.
Um, and I can't think ofsomebody or, you know, off the
(51:08):
bat who I would have to makefeel more comfortable.
I did a, I did a shoot with aband years ago, uh, called, um,
love, hate
Dr. Shepp (51:21):
[inaudible]
Harrison F. (51:21):
and their lead guitarist hated pictures and we
ended up screaming, cursing ateach other.
Right.
Because he was like, you know,just take the and picture
already.
I'm tired of it, you know, andcalling me an F in this and F a
nd that and the P ISA, you know,w hy?
(51:43):
And I just started giving theright back tool.
At the end of the shoot, hecame, came over and hugged me
and he said, I felt socomfortable with you.
Comfortable.
Y eah.
Right.
Because you didn't w rite mycrap and I was able to let you
know what I thought of you.
Right.
And he said, go ahead.
Psychologist has to be that too.
(52:03):
Seriously.
Y eah, n o, of course.
H uh.
Interesting.
So you kind of match the, youmatch the person for who they
are, right?
Yeah.
U m, and it, it's amazing c ausehe admitted to me at the end, he
says, you're a pretty good guy.
You to go out for a beer.
And I said, well, let's drinkhere.
I got plenty of beer in thefridge and we did it for hours.
(52:25):
You know, he was, he was fine.
Okay.
But how do you manage the waypeople respond to the final
product of your work?
I mean, you conceive ofsomething and, and decide what
your eye sees.
Um, and perhaps you collaboratewith your subjects ahead of
time.
I'm not sure, but I do.
But how do you decide what thefinal shot will be that's used?
(52:48):
Is that a collaboration?
Is that a decision that is givento you and then if so, how do
you not take that?
Personally, I, I don't take itpersonally.
Um, but I'm also fortunate inthe fact that, um, most of the
time the artists agree with mychoices.
Um, great.
And, and I'm, I'm glad I'm, I'm,I'm very thankful for that.
(53:09):
I recently shot, um, an artistback in April.
Um, I did a portrait shoot with,with him and, and um, um, it
was, it was amazing because Ichose 300 and something pictures
(53:30):
and we shot so many and I choseso many that I said, here are
the low Rez images.
You tell me what you like andthey keep coming back to me with
more and more and more and more,you know, and it's been months
now.
Um, and the thing that got me, Itook me back a little bit was
(53:55):
the fact that, um, they chosemostly different images to what
I chose.
I had no idea what they wouldlike, but they liked a lot of
the images that I, that I sentthem.
They just didn't, they justdidn't agree that my first
choices were their firstchoices.
Um, I can't take thatpersonally.
(54:16):
I don't care.
You know, I, I mean, I do care,but I, I, I, I, it doesn't
matter to me.
If somebody likes a specificimage, fine.
It's very subjective.
At the same time, if I thinkthat image is horrible and makes
and, and, and makes them lookbad and makes me look like a
fool for letting that pictureout, I'll argue the point.
I'll let them know what I think.
(54:38):
Um, you know, I don't, I don'tbelieve that anybody should be
bound to anything, you know,unless they're, unless they're,
um, there's a specific reason orneed for that particular image.
Some artists let me choose allthe pictures.
They just say you choose, whichI, you know, if I, if I know the
(55:01):
artist, I feel perfectlycomfortable in doing it.
Um, you know, like the Jackson'sfor instance, you know, I, I, I
choose mostly through, throughthe last, what, 40 years.
Um, they've let me choose, youknow, the ones that I think are,
are the best.
(55:22):
Uh, Michael always did.
Um, you know, Jermaine alwayshas.
Uh, although, you know, withMichael and Jermaine, it's
always been a, a realcollaboration with Michael.
It was always the Michael.
It was, it was, he would talk tome about what we were shooting,
especially in the studio orportrait wise.
(55:46):
Um, what it was going to be usedfor and we would collaborate.
But his attitude was always,let's make magic.
Let's just make magic.
And, and, and even on live showsafter every night he would, he
would come to me and he wouldsay, do we make magic tonight?
(56:08):
And it wasn't just about did wemake magic?
Did, did you make magic in thepictures?
Did I make magic on stage?
Was the audience is excitedabout the show, you know, as the
pictures will show, um, that wasthe magic.
The magic to him was pleasingthe people that were there to
see him.
(56:30):
And the same thing was truewith, with, you know, individual
shoots.
Um, with some things you can'tcollaborate, you just, you know,
documentary or photojournalism.
It's, it's just you, you show itfor what it is.
Anything else is a lie.
Anything else is contrived.
I was just going to say, it'sinteresting because you show,
(56:52):
you show it for what it is, butthe final results of a photo
shoot can often be a projectivetest, can't they?
I mean, I'm thinking of thephoto that you mentioned earlier
today, um, with Michael Jacksonand his hands spread out to the
side and that photo became aprojective test.
I remember that.
(57:12):
Um, people were saying he had aJesus complex.
He thought of himself as thesavior of the world because his
hands were outstretched asthough he was on a cross.
Um, and, and that wasn't at allwhat you intended or what he
intended.
I, I read that you were actuallytaking a picture of his, um, to
represent how large his handsfor, but, um, that was part of
(57:34):
what came out of it.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Please continue.
I'm sorry.
I, no, no, that's okay though.
Thank you.
Um, but it's interesting how astime goes by and perhaps even
when a photo first appears, itcan often be a projective test
as to what people think of thesubject.
It can.
(57:55):
Um, most of the time projectionhappens because of a trigger.
Um, so am I, am I pretty correcton that?
Yes.
Okay.
You took psych one Oh one I call.
I did.
Right.
And I, I, I failed.
I failed.
Okay.
I, my rat, whose name was Ben,get the damn thing to go through
(58:20):
the maze until I rub cheesealong the entire maze.
Okay.
Right.
Well, they don't tell you isthat many times those
experiments are not for therats.
They're experiments on thestudents.
I've gathered that I fell alittle with my rat, my rat.
I took my ride home.
So Ben and I became friends andhis name was Ben.
(58:41):
Okay.
Where did I named him?
Ben?
Speaker 5 (58:53):
So,
Harrison F. (58:54):
uh, here's, here's the, the, the thing about, um,
that shot, first of all, it, it,it did indeed project something
about Michael.
It was, it was Michaelprojecting his own desire to
heal the world because we shotfor heal the world.
(59:16):
Remember the song, so can'tsing.
I don't pretend it was shot forthat particular purpose.
It just got used for all sortsof other things.
But it was shot for that.
And um, yes, I, I liked, I wasalways amazed at the size of
(59:43):
Michael's hands.
He had huge hands and, and hehad this gesture that I thought
was, was one of his enduringtraits, which was he would wave
to somebody or wave somebodyover with his hands.
But it, how do I explain it?
(01:00:04):
It was like, it's very fatherly.
It was very, it was, it was, um,it was a comforting feeling
about, about him.
The way he would gesture to youto come over to him or, or to,
you know, he would wave to you.
It wasn't a wave.
Actual was a wave was an a wave.
(01:00:26):
Um, basically was aningratiating wave.
It was a wave of, of inclusion.
And, um, I said at one point, I,as I remember the way that shoot
evolves, I said, um, I had animpure wedding.
(01:00:47):
I had him, I had him with hisarms up in the air.
Um, and he said, okay.
He had a, he had a dance move.
He did on stage at the end of aman in the mirror where he would
stomp his foot and throw hisarms out.
And that's, that's what that is.
That's, that's that move.
That's exactly that move.
(01:01:08):
And, and I said, so works forman in the mirror, works for
heal the world.
It works for the four it wouldwork for, we are the world.
And he said, yeah, it's allabout healing, right man.
And the mirror is about healing,you know, just like heal the
world.
Um, and you know, the, thepicture was later used for, uh,
(01:01:35):
heal the world promotion.
And, um, I think what I, I thinkwhat I love about it is that it,
it, it really, you had to knowMichael to know that that really
depicted his personality and howhe felt about the world.
(01:01:55):
I don't think it was a Jesuscomplex by any, by any stretch
of the imagination.
I don't think Michael consideredhimself to be God or godlike or,
or, you know, a, a, a secondcoming or anything.
Um, I don't think that was his,that was his intention.
I think his, his sole intentionwas that of inclusion of saying
(01:02:18):
we working together can, canmake a change, you know, um,
heal the world, make it a betterplace for you and for me and the
entire human race.
And don't ask me why I knowlyrics because I usually don't
remember what you're expecting.
But you know, that's the kindof, that's the kind of
(01:02:41):
perspective that Michael broughtto, to a shoot.
Like, you know, we're, we'rewhere he would do a move like
that, especially if he knew thatthat was kind of what it was for
and where it was going.
Um, I think that he had a lotof, he had a lot of moves
choreographed that, um, said alot.
(01:03:07):
And I think a lot of what hestood for was, um, exactly that,
you know, he, he SWI he wrote,heal the world.
That's why he wrote earth song.
That's why he wrote, um, youknow, we are the world.
I, um, got to give Lionel partof the credit for that, but you
(01:03:29):
know, um, and you saw him duringthis as it, the preparation.
I did not know.
I, I actually came back herefrom, from England with the
intention of doing it.
And, um, through politics Iended up doing something
completely different for himthat I still won't talk about.
(01:03:50):
But, um, I, I was, I was notable to shoot, uh, I was going
to be doing the tour.
Um, there were some weirdpolitics with AEG, um, that I
think relate a lot to everythingthat happened to Michael after
(01:04:12):
that.
Um, I did not want to be caughtup in those, but I, you know,
um, I did not end up shootingrehearsals and honestly, I can't
think of many, um, many jobsthat I, I was affected where I
(01:04:34):
was affected by political sillypolitical decisions.
Some of the artists that youworked with, um, some of the
artists that you worked with,you saw evolve over large spans
of time because you would workwith them consistently over the
years.
Yeah, quite a few.
And, and I, I remember seeingartists in, in the 80s, early
(01:05:01):
eighties, who, um, maybe in thelate seventies, and then not
seeing them for years and thenpicking up again and seeing, you
know, seeing them again, um, andseeing how they had evolved.
Um, uh, Pat Benatar was one ofthem.
I never, I never really, reallyworked with her other than on,
(01:05:24):
uh, her first.
Her first tour, uh, back in what, 1978.
You know, I, I, I kinda did a, aclub tour with her and a couple
other artists.
And then really I liked her.
(01:05:46):
I liked, I liked, um, I need alover who won't drive me crazy.
Um, and I liked her versionbetter than John Mellencamp
version.
Um, although I got to like hisversion too.
But, um, I then I didn't see herfor six or seven years and I was
(01:06:07):
pretty amazed to see how she'dblown up.
Um, I got to see Whitney Houstonfrom, from, you know, the very
early days.
Um, and it was amazing to seehow she, you know, how she blew
up.
Um, she was brilliant.
I mean, one of the, if one ofthe greatest singers of, if not
(01:06:27):
the greatest female vocalist ofmy, of my lifetime, um, I got to
see, you know, but I got to seeher as a, um, as a fledgling
artist, uh, doing small venuesand, and, and, um, I
photographed her on a TVappearance, I think was it young
(01:06:48):
and the restless, um, withJermaine Jackson.
And, um, that was, that waspretty cool.
And then I, you know, um, Iworked with her on some bigger,
bigger gigs and some biggervenues later on.
Um, and, uh, Amy Winehouse, um,you know, I, I watched for the
(01:07:12):
first three years of her, of hercareer as she started out, um,
right up until right up untilshe got really big and, and was
reluctant to do much of anythingpublicly.
Um, and I think that was, youknow, the results of her
addiction.
(01:07:33):
Um, it was very, she is verysad.
I w I thought Amy was just awonderful person.
Um, there was a day that I'm on,on a bus going from, uh, um, I
was coming down from King'scross or I was going up to
King's cross on, on, um, on, onthis bus in London.
(01:07:56):
And she gets on with her guitarand her and her in Camden with
her guitar in her amp and she'skind of struggling, you know,
she's little girl, she's not,not huge.
And I, I, I knew her pretty welland I jumped up and ran, grabbed
her amp, and she's like, what?
(01:08:19):
And then she realized who it wasand, and, um, she says, I could
get it all.
And I said, no, no, no.
Let me get it.
And she, okay, where are yougoing?
She said she was going to do agig at, at, um, um, university
college, which is, uh, I went toschool there for a time and, and
, um, so I said, Oh, I knowwhere you're, where you're
(01:08:41):
playing.
Well, I, uh, you know, I, Ikinda guessed she was in, um,
uh, the, this building straightup from the gate.
And, and, um, I said, I'll helpyou get the, you know, get your
stuff there.
You have to do that.
It's fine.
No, no, no, no, I'll help you.
And she was really gratefulbecause it was, he could tell
she was like struggling with herbackpack and her guitar and her,
(01:09:05):
her, her amp, and, and there wasnobody to help her.
Nobody showed up at the gig tohelp her, you know, and I said,
just, just wait here with yourstuff and I'll be right back.
And I went inside, I got the,um, one of the custodial staff
to, to help her drag it into the, uh, into the venue.
(01:09:25):
Um, and she says, are you goingto stay?
You know, so I said, yeah, youknow, I'll stay in, stayed watch
the gig.
And that was, you know, it wasjust, it was fun cause I got to
see the gig instead of actuallytaking pictures of it.
Um, very lost soul I think.
And, and um, you know, it's,it's just very sad to see
somebody not make it to, to, youknow, the, um, the peak of their
(01:09:52):
career of course.
And, um, I think she would havebeen, if she were alive today.
I mean, who knows, but, but Ithink she would be as big as
Whitney, as big as, uh, youknow, I, I mean, I don't really
want to compare it to anybody.
I don't know who, um, but Ithink she would have been an
(01:10:13):
absolute superstar.
Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
This has been managed the moment with dr Shep, my
physic collection of moments.
It's how you manage the momentsthat makes the difference.
In part two of our conversation,Harrison and I chat about the
cultural significance of notonly his work, but also of music
and other art forms as well, andhe also shares his advice for
performers about learning fromfailure.
(01:10:45):
That's next time on the managethe moment podcast.
Thanks again for listening.
I hope you'll join us for thosemoments.
You can subscribe to the managethe moment podcast for free just
by clicking the subscribe buttonwherever you're listening to
this podcast, and then you'll besure to get the newest episodes
as soon as they're uploaded.
And for more information aboutmanage the moment podcast, you
(01:11:07):
can see the episode notes forthis broadcast.
You will also find us on socialmedia, and I'm on Twitter and
Instagram at dr Shep.
Thanks so much for listening andtaking the time to share these
moments with us.
Until next time.
Speaker 6 (01:11:20):
Right.
Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment
conversations in performancepsychology.
I'm Dr.
Sari Shepphird.
I was, I was really fortunatebecause as I told you the
stories of how I started, I wentright to the top.
You know, my clients were huge.
(00:30):
If you're a, if you're anartist, any client, singer,
painter, poser, um, actor,doesn't matter if you have that
talent and, and you can use itand you can and you can draw on
all those things that make youtalent.
(00:50):
Do it.
(00:52):
That's Harrison Funk, a portrait photographer, photo
journalist, film director anddocumentary photographer, whose
name you may be familiar with,but his work you most certainly
are given that some of hisimages have been seen by
billions of people around theglobe.
Harrison's work includes many ofthe most notable artists of the
21st century.
And his approach to his work hasdriven him to document and
(01:14):
photograph people times andevents in ways that have not
been done before.
In our two part series, Harrisonshares his thoughts about how
visual arts can define itsgeneration and how some of those
efforts have changed over thegenerations as well.
You can see many of Harrison'sportraits on his Instagram page
listed in the episode notes,photo underscore icon, and you
(01:38):
can hear Harrison's thoughtsabout preparing to be the best
that you can be in this first ofour two part conversation.
Hi Harrison.
Thanks for joining me today.
Harrison F. (01:46):
Hi Sari.
Great to be here.
(01:50):
You are a photographer and a historian.
You photograph some of the mostfamous faces and captured
moments that no one else wouldsee if it was not for your lens.
How did you ready yourself forthese encounters?
Harrison F. (02:03):
Sleepless nights, many, many, many sleepless
nights, lots of prep.
Um, honestly, I, I, I can'tbegin to tell you how difficult
it was for me to get on set inthe earliest days of my career.
I was nervous beyond belief.
I, you know, I was neverstarstruck.
(02:25):
I grew up around a lot of stars.
I, I knew, um, I think one ofthe first major, major
performers I met when I was akid was Frank Sinatra.
Um, and, and you know, my dadused to say, Hey, when, you
know, when you, my dad was anattorney and a judge, and he
(02:47):
used to say he knew a lot of,you know, those kinds of people.
He said, when, when, when youget tongue tied, when you, or
you're, you're meeting somebodyyou know, of, of fame for the
first time, just remember theyall go to the bathroom the same
way and just picture them whenthey're with their pants around
(03:08):
their ankles.
And it's true.
I mean, it, it got me over thatinitial sort of stage fright.
Um, I, you know, I don't thinkthere's a, an artist that I
haven't met that then if I mettoday, it would, it would have
me tongue tied.
(03:29):
Um, and I find, you know, that'shelped me.
I, I do a fair amount of, ofpublic speaking, lecturing and
such.
And, um, I found that that helpsme as well.
I, you know, I, I don't, I don'ttend to be, um, challenged by a
big group.
Um, the challenge is when theyask questions, whether I'll be
(03:52):
able to give them answers,especially in an academic
setting, if I'll be able to givethem answers that actually
enhance their experience.
Dr. Shepp (04:00):
Some of your preparation, I'm wondering if it
came from watching your unclewho was a famous Broadway
photographer.
Did you learn anything about howto capture a moment from him?
Harrison F. (04:10):
You know, he was a very, a blend, very outgoing,
very big personality kinda guythat really, I don't think I
ever really talked about it withhim except, you know, I asked
him some stories about, um,actors that, that I admired, um,
(04:33):
who he was friends with.
And, and the way he discussedthem was so casually is as, you
know, just as he would betalking about, um, any, uh, any
friend, um, didn't matter ifthey were a star of stage and
screen the, you know, they were,they were just, they were just
somebody he knew.
And, and I kind of realized, Imean, I, I, I adopted that
(04:58):
perspective.
They're people.
And there are people with atalent, there are people with,
with an ability, there arepeople to be admired for that
talent and that ability a lot oftimes, I mean, there are a lot
of people out there that, um,who, who, you know, that are,
that become stars that I mightnot be friends with, I might not
(05:20):
want to be friends with, butmore often than not, I think
artists relate to each other.
And I think that that's part ofwhat makes it easy.
I, I, I think I've drawn on thatmore than anything.
Um, you know, Leo had a, had agreat sense of, of, of, uh,
understanding people for whothey were or who they are.
(05:41):
I, I did take something fromthat, but I think I learned, I
learned by doing, uh, I learnedby being in front of people.
Um, um, I'm trying to think whothe first person, the first
really famous person Iphotographed was, um, I think
(06:01):
Charles Nelson Reilly, I don'teven know if you know who that
is,
Dr. Shepp (06:05):
Sure.
"Match game".
Harrison F. (06:07):
Exactly.
And Hollywood squares as well.
Um, and I, most people don'tprobably remember him for
anything but that, but he was agreat Broadway actor.
Um, he was in the original helloDolly.
And, um, he, he did a couple ofother shows on Broadway and I
(06:29):
was in high school and a friendof mine, we all, we all worked
for the school paper.
And a friend of mine had an auntwho was the telephone operator
at, I want to say the Algonquinhotel in New York.
And she got to meet a lot ofactors and offered my friend to,
(06:54):
you know, would we like tointerview Charles?
And she said, only if I canbring Harrison along to take
some pictures.
And so they arranged it.
We went backstage, he was doinga show, uh, we went down to the
theater and, and were ledbackstage and he was the most
(07:15):
just ingratiating person I hadhad met in, in any position of,
of, um, fame or you know,recognition.
Um, I mentioned, you know who Imentioned, my, my uncle Leo.
And immediately he says, Oh myGod, are you gonna put me
(07:37):
through the paces?
Like he does.
So it was easy.
It, you know, and I realize I,at that point I kinda got beaten
by the bug of shootingcelebrities.
How do you know how to challengemyself to make portraits of them
that were different than otherportraits that had previously
been done?
(07:58):
Um, so it was always a matterof, of really challenging myself
and driving myself to dosomething different and better
than something that hadpreviously been done.
This turned into, um, theadviser from the paper was
really excited that we were ableto get, get a major star, um,
(08:21):
for an interview.
And it turned into a, a, aseries that we started doing of,
you know, people that wereshaping our lives in high
school.
And the next group was the CBSnewsroom in, in New York.
So the CBS evening news and I,you know, I got to shoot
(08:45):
everybody, including WalterCronkite.
Um, unfortunately, some of thosepictures, including the, the
images of Walter Cronkite are tothe ages.
Another story.
Uh, but, um, there was a ladythat worked for CVS, like, yes.
Um, her name was Linda Ellerby.
(09:06):
I just thought it was a greatname.
Um, and she asked if I canphotograph her at her desk on
the phone.
And I kept trying to figure outan angle to take a picture of
somebody on the phone at theirdesk cause they were such, you
know, they're kind of tritepictures, but I hadn't planned
any of this.
I, we just kind of showed up andwe weren't sure I had in my
mind, okay, I'm going to do thisin the newsroom.
(09:27):
I never thought that anybodywould challenge me, you know.
Um, I'm a high school kid.
One on one.
I think I'm going to take theworld by storm.
But, but it happened.
It was great.
Um, and, and the series wassuccessful.
We ran, we ran quite a fewarticles, you know, interviews
with people that influenced ourlives.
Uh, a few years later, um, I hada friends, I guess it was, it
(09:56):
was a friend's little sister wasdoing the same.
I carried on, you know, she wasquite a few years behind us and
I think I was probably in myearly twenties.
She was doing, uh, an interviewwith Arlo Guthrie and I knew
Arlo because I'd photographedhim for, for life magazine
(10:20):
shortly before that.
And she, she called me and sheasked if I would mind, she got
permission from the advisor forthe paper if I could come back
and, and reprise my rolephotographing, you know, famous
people for the paper.
And uh, of course I agreed and,and we, you know, went to, uh,
(10:44):
when I went out to shoot R, O, N, N she's trying to interview
him and he and I are havingconversations, side
conversations about musichistory and about New York and
upstate New York and the, thefolk scene and his father.
And, and she's sitting therelistening and she, she said, um,
(11:08):
can I ask a question?
And we both looked at her andsaid, no.
And went right back to theconversation that we both got
up.
And of course she got her, herquestions in and we totally
flustered her and he made agreat point.
He said, there are two thingsyou have to know about
interviewing.
Number one, never ask asongwriter to explain a song.
(11:34):
And always be able to think onyour feet and jump right back to
where you were before you wereinterrupted or, or before you
got flustered as aphotojournalist.
And as a photographer, as aportraitist, I realized that was
some of the best advice youcould ever give a journalist,
(11:55):
let alone, you know, someone inthe arts.
Um, so that's, you know, thatwas part of part of my, my
discovery of how to prep.
I know that when I, um, some ofthe earliest bands I worked with
, um, you know, as a teenager,they each led to bigger, bigger
(12:16):
artists.
And I would lay awake at nightthe night before I do, uh, a
shoot, especially with a bandshoot.
If I was going on the road, youknow, it was like no big deal.
Um, I would say say to myself,I've shot, you know, hundreds of
shows live, I can do this.
(12:37):
What am I going to look forthat's different?
And that was the thing, I had tofigure out what was different
about the show that I canphotograph that make, that, that
would make that artist lookamazing.
And I learned a trick, which isdon't shoot the first show and
(12:59):
if he can, if you're going ontour with, I mean, you know, I'm
a, I have been a tourphotographer for, you know,
however many years, 40.
Um, and I, I every tour I go on,I want to see minimum five
rehearsals before I actuallystart shooting.
(13:20):
If I have to join a tour in themiddle, I will go out there and
I will, if I haven't seen theshow already, I will spend the
first night with, with a camerain hand.
But mostly just watching andmaking mental notes about what I
want to photograph that makesthis unique.
(13:41):
And, um, I had a productionmanager come up to me one time
during a, exactly that, thefirst night of a, of a tour,
which I had joined in themiddle.
And he says, we're paying you afortune and you're standing here
watching the show.
What's the deal?
And I said, listen, if I don'ttell you how to run the staging,
(14:05):
please don't tell me how to domy job.
And I turned my back on him andwalked away and went to watch
the show from a different place.
Well, the artist having seenthis rather tense exchange tells
him that he should just let medo what I do because I, you
(14:26):
know, I won awards for what Ido.
Obviously I know what I'm doingand I never, I, I, you know,
I've, I, I think that was theone and only time somebody
questioned that method, butit's, it's pretty, you know,
prep is a big thing.
(14:46):
Um, you, you asked the questionabout how do I prep, well, when
I do portrait session, um, if Iwere going to shoot you, I would
want to learn every single thingabout you, everything you know,
from your, from your earliestdays onward, what basically, you
know, what makes you who you areand then try to incorporate as
(15:09):
much of that with, you know,your present life.
Um, as a performancepsychologist and maybe one of
these days I'll get to do aportrait of you.
Um, but I'll, I'll do every bitof research, you know, that I,
that I possibly can.
(15:30):
And sometimes it's verydifficult.
Sometimes you're photographingpeople that, that were nothing.
Even with the internet wherenothing is available, you know,
you're, you're trying to findout something about them and,
and, and you just, you justcan't.
Um, but you know, you, you, theidea for me is I want to go out
(15:52):
there and, and know the personthat I'm photographing, know
what they're about and know,also know how the pictures are
going to be used, why they'rebeing used.
We know what's, what's, let'ssay I shoot an artist who's,
who's been photographed, youknow, by 25 other photographers
(16:14):
and, and is, is tremendouslyfamous, has won awards and, and
in lauded for their, for theirabilities over and over and over
again.
What am I going to look at?
I'm going to look at what makesthem unique and what makes, what
will make this picture differentfrom everything else that's been
(16:36):
done.
Or I'm going to look ateverything that's been done and
see one that I like and improveon that
Speaker 3 (16:44):
[inaudible]
Harrison F. (16:45):
tremendous like tenfold.
Um, you have to know, you know,their color palette is important
there.
Um, yeah.
And, and if it's, if it'ssomething that, that I don't
feel I can work with, I canoften put them in front of a
black background in like an aninfinity, you know, a background
(17:07):
that looks like it goes oninfinitely into oblivion, uh, to
make that work.
I'm giving you all my secretshere.
Dr. Shepp (17:17):
Well, it's so, it's so amazing to hear you describe
your process because first ofall, it's one that you certainly
own.
You don't hesitate to own yourown process, which is important
for any performer, but it's alsoone that you took the time to
conceive based on not just theway you wanted your work to be
(17:39):
received, but the kind of storyyou want to tell, the kind of
impact that you want to make.
Harrison F. (17:47):
It's more than cerebral.
So if, I mean, I don't think Icould have answered this
question as well 30 years agobecause I probably hadn't
thought about it as much as Ihave over the course of my
(18:08):
career.
But sure.
It's something that I do thinkabout.
I do, I do consider every time Imake a picture, I also look at
location, including the, theenvironment of a subject in the
(18:31):
picture is often very important.
One of my favorite pictures ofMichael Jackson is a very
impromptu picture taken while Iwas actually directing a
television special at the ranch.
(18:51):
It was, um, it, well that,that's another story in itself.
Um, MTV had done, had, hadagreed with contract with
Michael to do a weekend, aweekend at Neverland Valley and
that was the name of his ranch.
(19:11):
And um, they had, they hadsponsored a video contest and we
had to photograph all the videowinters with Michael, but MTV at
the same time was doing a behindthe scenes thing at the ranch
(19:34):
with Michael.
And Michael was concerned that,that he would not like the way
they would light him.
So he told me to go out and tellthem that I was going to light
and direct over there, their ownpeople.
And I was amazed.
(19:55):
The producer just looked at me,draw dropped and said, sure, if
that's what, if that's what ittakes to get what Michael wants.
You know what Michael will giveus, we'll do it.
So I go out and I said, yourlighting is completely wrong.
They had very harsh lights onhim.
(20:16):
I said, I need, um, I knew, Iknew they had it because it was,
we had a list of requirementsthat they bring.
Um, and if they had an, I hadone up at the ranch anyway, um,
a 12 by 12 silk, which is a biggigantic, 12 foot by 12 foot,
um, uh, soft reflector.
(20:37):
Well, um, shoot through, um, tosoften the light.
And um, I said I need that upand I, you know, I, I want that
here and here and here.
Uh, and I, I want to removethese lights.
And nobody even questioned didthey, they went along with it
(20:57):
very nicely.
Michael comes out, I went insideto tell him that, that, that
they were ready for him and welit it and he said, are you
sure?
I said, absolutely, you'll loveit.
And he, he comes out and I hadput a Mark down where I wanted
him to stand.
We were going to lead in the,the winners from these videos.
(21:22):
And he's standing there and he'slooking around and the wind is
blowing his hair and he'slooking at the two, a little
suicide.
And I said, wait, hold on, keepthe, keep the talent off the
set.
I'm going to shoot.
Michael and I, I had a stillcamera as always, and I just
picked it up and did somewonderful portraits of Michael
in front of the carousel at theranch.
(21:45):
Really just, you know,impromptu, not, not staged real,
I mean the lighting was done and, and whatever, but Michael just
stood there naturally, you know,in the breeze.
And there's a picture of himsmiling, which gives away how he
felt about the environment.
(22:06):
You know, the, the, the carouseland he's looking off to the side
and you know, he's got that,that, you know, trademark smile
that he would occasionally puton, you know, some of my
favorite portraits are justimprovised.
(22:27):
Um, I have a portrait of, of um,Vincent Price shot the morning
after he did the, uh, voiceoverfor thriller and, uh, it was
shot for, it was an afterthoughtthat was wanted by the record
label and they wanted him inthis very cluttered recording
(22:51):
studio with all this, all theselight stands and um,
microphones, et cetera.
And, and I w I came in and I setup lights and I figured out,
right, it'll work, but it's notwhat I really want.
What I really want is justVincent looking mysterious in
front of a black backdrop.
(23:13):
And, uh, I got a lot of, a lotof pushback from, from Epic, uh,
from the, the art department onthat.
And now we want to use thispicture this way and okay, fine.
So they, they got their pictureand you know, 10 years later I'm
working on an exhibition with afriend of mine who is an
(23:37):
attorney and also a greatphotographer.
He was one of my studentsactually, and I helped him set
up a, I'm a print lab and, um, aphoto studio in his house.
And, um, we're working, we'reprinting, uh, an exhibition that
I'm about to do and, and we'retalking about this picture and,
(23:59):
and um, he remembered that Itold him that I really wanted
the picture against a starkblack backdrop.
Two days later I, I come backdown to his house and, and ready
to start making prints and heshows me he had spent at least
15 hours turning the backdropblack or the background black,
(24:25):
perfectly outlining Vinsonprices, body.
There's, you can't even tellthat it was not shot this way.
This is, it's one of thegreatest retouch jobs I think
I've ever seen in my life.
And I'm looking at it right now.
Um, it, it, it hangs in myoffice across from my computer
(24:48):
and I, you know, it sits incontrast on the wall too.
There's a picture of Michaelwith his arms outstretched in
front of a white backdrop, whichmost people that know Michael's
history also know was the coverof the Memorial book from his
(25:11):
funeral.
And I, I find it fitting thatthese two pictures hang
juxtaposed one with a starkblack background and one was a
stark white background.
Um, the, the picture of Michaelwas other than other than
(25:31):
lighting that had been, youknow, determined, um, by years
of just knowing how tophotograph him.
Um, there was, there was no realprep.
It was, it was like, okay,Michael, stand there for a
second.
And he stood there, threw hisarms out and he, he kind of
(25:53):
turned to each side and startedsinging to himself and I shot
and we were done in 15 minutes.
You know, the, the, the, itdidn't require a whole lot of
major, major prep.
How do I prep myself?
(26:14):
Um, every time I photographanybody, it's, it's a challenge.
It's knowing, you know, can I,can I make them laugh?
I think I've become, uh, a verygood standup comedian, but even
then, because it's, it's, it'sall improv.
I have to figure out, I actuallytook an improv class as it's
(26:37):
going to ask back in the day.
Yes.
I, I studied in and I, I, youknow, I, I, um, I wanted to
learn, you know, the, the finerpoints of, of great improv.
Um, and, and so I would, youknow, part of my prep is knowing
that that's that part of knowingabout the person.
(27:01):
What is it that might make themreact?
Dr. Shepp (27:05):
Okay.
Harrison F. (27:05):
Because you want to, you want to get a genuine
reaction out of them.
If in a still photograph, youwant to draw out their
personality.
Um, in some cases, drawing outtheir personality can mean, um,
having them resting on a hand orto, uh, contemplating the floor.
(27:26):
You just don't want them toappear bored.
You know, contemplative is fine,but board is not fine.
Well, board buddies you find,depending on the, you know,
board might be fine depending onthe mood you're, you're trying
to, you're trying to depict,it's try it.
For me it's, it's knowing theperson, knowing what they will
(27:50):
react to, what they might find.
Um, interesting, sad, happy,whatever.
Um, and drawing out thatperformance.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
Well, it's interesting because many
performers will say that theyprepare a great deal in advance
for the moment of performancebecause it allows them to be
more spontaneous and present in,in the moment.
And it, it sounds like you notonly have a spontaneous eye,
which of course you do, but partof the way you allow yourself
that spontaneity is, is throughthe preparation that you do
(28:26):
about your subject.
Harrison F. (28:28):
Absolutely true.
And I don't think I could do it.
I don't know if I could do itany other way.
I think I've been doing this forso many years that I think this
is just what comes naturally.
[inaudible] um, interesting.
It's interesting to know that I,I live a multifaceted life as an
(28:56):
artist.
I am portraitist photojournalist, video director or film
director, um, and documentaryphotographer and hopefully being
a good documentary photographermeans also being an adept
(29:20):
photojournalist.
But when I do a portrait ofsomeone, um, I, my prep is, is,
is the same, maybe even greaterthan when I document an event or
shoot stills on a, on a film orvideo or um, cover candidates on
(29:45):
a campaign or whatever it maybe.
I'll look for those momentswithin those events where I can
make portraits static or maybenot so static looking but, but
static images of, of uh, of aperson and I don't care how you
(30:08):
want to define it.
Uh, to me, politicians are ourperformers.
Sure.
Because the, they need tocommunicate and connect in that
moment while they haveeveryone's attention, there has
to be an awareness of thedelivery of, of their
information in, in a particularmoment of time.
Anyone that that is out there inpublic presenting themselves is
(30:35):
in some way performing.
It has to prepare for thatperformance.
And I, in order to make thosepictures, have to know enough
about what that presentation orperformance really is, to know
what I have to photograph to, tolet the rest of the world know
it.
Um, and I, that's, you know,part of, part of me is wanting
(30:59):
to show behind the scenes morethan just what anybody sees by
going to a concert.
Um, or by going to, uh, to, uh,uh, a speech.
Everybody sees that, but my jobis to show whatever we doesn't
see.
(31:19):
Right.
Right.
And that includes, you know,okay, when I'm hired to
photograph, you know, um, JimmySmith's band, um, and, and Jimmy
Smith, if you're listening,whoever you may be, um, this is
for you seriously, because Igather Siri that a lot of your
(31:40):
listeners are actually artistsand performers.
You know, if somebody islistening out there, I don't
care if it's me or somebody elsethat you, that you hire to take
your pictures.
You've got probably threedifferent kinds of pictures that
you need.
One is the one that makes youlook, um, most like your stage
(32:01):
persona most like, or how, howyou want the audience to
perceive you.
The second is your, yourapproachable persona.
The, the that which makes youlovable by your, by your
audience.
You know, I don't care whetheryou are like Ozzy biting the
(32:24):
heads off of bats or doves orwhatever, he bit, he's a lovable
guy.
He's Ozzy, he is a lovable guy.
And, and, and I, I hate to breakthe bubble here, but, but you
know, um, he's great fun tophotograph and, and um, he,
(32:48):
there's an approachable side tohim.
Um, then, and the third thing isthere is that which defines you
for the quality of yourperformance, your music,
whatever.
And if you can bring all threeof those together in, in a photo
shoot or you can bring thosethree together in a series of
(33:11):
shoots, you're doing well, yougot people looking at you and
understanding you and probablybuying your records.
And this brings me to, can Ibring up what we were discussing
the other day?
Sure.
Of course.
Okay.
So this brings up a veryimportant point that sadly, and,
(33:39):
and I apologize to any, um, anymillennials I'm offending
because it's not really justaimed at your generation,
although it seems like this hashappened in the last, um, 20
years that mediocrity has becomeacceptable.
(34:01):
And when we talk about preparingfor photography or, or, or
video, I don't see howmediocrity can be acceptable.
Have you ever looked at, andsorry, feel free to answer, but,
but have you ever watched thenews and seen a news report shot
(34:25):
on a cell phone that istransmitted by satellite from
wherever?
Sure.
Okay.
It's taking images of thetornado or whatever it might be.
Yeah, exactly.
They're pixelated.
Um, the signal keeps cutting inand out.
That's not quality journalism,nor is shooting a music video on
(34:51):
an iPhone quality production.
But you're getting it done.
And the novelty of doing itmight have at one point been
acceptable.
If I were your manager, yourrecord label, your marketing
person, I would say, I thinkyou're daft, you know, um, there
(35:13):
are a lot of novelties outthere.
You can walk down seventh Avenueand find loads of novelty shops.
Is it quality merchandise?
Now maybe awkward is not, not annot an option to me.
Well, especially in your line ofwork because you're dealing with
perfectionist.
You're dealing with those whoare demanding excellence from
themselves and I'm imagining ofcourse demanding excellence from
(35:36):
the people that they work with.
Without a doubt.
Now, I didn't go to school forphotography.
Okay?
By some academic standards, I'mprobably not qualified to be a
photographer, but you have toknow the basics.
Now it's great when you meet anartist that knows photography.
(35:59):
Michael Jackson knew photographyvery well to the point where one
day he calls me and he says, Ineed you to go to go to the
camera store where we have anaccount and buy me one of
everything.
You have what you're going tostart photographing yourself.
He says, no, I want a fullsystem here at the ranch just in
(36:27):
case something ever happens toyours and you can't get out to
get what you need or just incase[inaudible].
And I thought it was masterfulbecause from then, then, then
forward, he knew so much heasked me, you know, he would ask
me for books to give him tipsand show him techniques and that
I used and he asked this ofother photographers too.
(36:51):
And I, I just thought that, youknow, any client that takes the
time to understand really isthe, is an easier client to
have.
And, you know, knowledge is soimportant and understanding the
art form is so important.
And I, I just, you know, from,from that point forward, I was
(37:11):
just blown away by, by, by histhirst for knowledge in every
field.
I me, you know, uh, a lot ofpeople don't know that Michael's
one of Michael's plans for afterthis is, it was, he wanted to go
back and get a degree in arthistory.
That right.
(37:32):
Yeah.
And, um, I don't know howserious he was about, about
pursuing it, but he, hecertainly seemed serious about
it when he was talking to meabout it.
Um, there's no substitute forunderstanding, you know, how
something, how something thatyou're a tool that you're using
(37:52):
to make your career or toenhance your career, how
important it is to understandthat and, and, and really be, be
fluid in the use of it.
(38:22):
I was, I was really fortunatebecause as I told you the
stories of, of how I started, Iwent right to the top.
You know, my clients were hugeGenesis stones, Billy Joel, uh,
you know, Peter Gabriel, um, andthen Michael Jackson and the
(38:43):
Jacksons and, you know,Commodores.
And, um, I can go on, but, um,and I'm not saying that that
it's, it's a bad thing to have atalent.
You know, if, if you're, uh, ifyou're an artist of any kind,
(39:04):
singer, painter, composer, um,actor, doesn't matter if you
have that talent and you can useit and you can, and you can draw
on all those things that makeyou talented.
Do it.
(39:26):
The one thing I will say toanybody, I don't care if you're
15 or 50, lose the ego or don'tacquire the ego.
I'd actually love to get into aconversation with you about
that.
I would love to hear your, yourperspective as a psychologist on
(39:49):
what I just said.
Because you know, to me, youearn, you earn the right to have
an ego.
There is a, um, there's a beliefin the new Testament that pride
(40:11):
comes before the fall.
Meaning those who are mostprideful will probably fall flat
on their faces quicker thansomebody who's not.
I don't know if I believe thatwholeheartedly, but I do believe
that there's something to it.
Um, I think that thatmaintaining some kind of
(40:34):
humility is really important.
If, if I go to photographsomebody, I, I can be as
commanding and I can directthem.
I can tell them this is, this isgorgeous.
Oh, I love your smile.
You look great.
Beautiful.
Turn your head a little to theright.
(40:54):
Thank you.
Beautiful.
Now if I say it with humility,like, Hey, you know, I know what
I'm doing.
Trust me.
It's gonna be amazing.
And then they fall down and theybreak their head.
I'm a, I'm not, I don't care howthey ask them to do it, but I'm
(41:16):
an idiot.
Right?
But if I, if I say it to themand I build up enough, like if I
put a couple of Apple boxes onthe floor and I have enough,
enough, you know, I've built aset for them to do that and
they're, and they're, you know,standing on their head, pushing
their nose in the air, whatever.
I'm thinking of those impossiblepose imaginable.
(41:36):
But if I do that and, and I takeall the precautions necessary to
make them, um, comfortable andto look good or even
uncomfortable, but you know, butsafe and look good.
I'm doing my job because I'mcreating, you know, I'm creating
something unusual.
(41:57):
Well, belief in your own abilityis different than arrogance,
right?
Having, having confidence inwhat you can do is different
than arrogance.
Right?
And that's the differencebetween, you know, I'm trying to
think of two artists to compare,but you know, there are artists
out there that are so arrogantthat they don't come off.
(42:20):
They're, they're talented butthey don't come off well.
And then there are artists outthere that know their abilities,
that are self, you know, very,um, very secure in themselves
that don't need to be arrogant.
And I think that's a veryimportant lesson to learn.
(42:43):
Um, Michael Jackson was neverarrogant that I could, I
remember, I don't think I everwatched him be arrogant.
Um, he said some things that I,you know, may not have been
perfect, but I, I never detectedarrogance.
Um, you know, there are otherartists out there that are
(43:08):
really arrogant.
Um, and um, I'm not even goingto go down that road because I
might have to shoot the nextweek, but except maybe Kanye
West who I just have nointention of shooting next week
or week after amongst time.
Um, well, among the peopleyou've photographed, there must
(43:31):
be a wide range of personalityand level of confidence.
So just even skimming yourInstagram page, we would see
David Bowie and Tina Turner andAmy Winehouse.
Freddie mercury, Stevie wonder,Johnny Depp, Nelson Mandela,
Elizabeth Taylor.
You've mentioned Billy Joel,George, Michael, Tina Turner.
You've mentioned Mick Jagger, uh, with the stones.
(43:53):
Um, France, Aretha van Halen,Bruce Springsteen, Janet
Jackson, Michael Jackson,president Obama.
I mean that's a wide range ofpersonality.
[inaudible][inaudible] there's,and there's people missing from
that as well.
Sure.
But sure.
Um, that's just a snapshot.
Um, I'm just thinking what I,what I, how I want to respond to
(44:14):
that.
Um, of all the people youmentioned, I never detected
tremendous ego or overbearingarrogance and relatively no
arrogance in any of them.
The man who I think exuded themost humility of that whole
(44:36):
group was probably NelsonMandela.
[inaudible] a man who changedthe world.
And um, president Obama wasextremely humble unless you got
them talking about playingbasketball.
(45:02):
He was, he is a very, very kind,decent person.
The present occupant of thewhite house.
I've, I've only photographedtwice and I photographed him
long before he ran for office.
(45:23):
Um, and back then he was prettyobnoxious to women, but you
know, on a one to one he wasfine, you know, he was just, he
was fine to, to, to photograph.
(45:43):
Um, so people are, people alsoshould have different sites
themselves to different people,you know.
Um, uh, and I imagine they wouldto you depending on their level
of trust in you.
W would you say that's true?
I do think that's true.
I think that um, one of thepeople, I, I I had a
(46:03):
conversation with um, uh, aboutrole affairs and politics was
Bano and um, my, my, my friendsand my entity is probably will
tell you I'm very political.
Um, I'm very, I'm very drawn tothe whole subject of politics,
(46:27):
world affairs, history.
Um, maybe in some cases to myown detriment, maybe not, but I
will say something about bonothat he knows his stuff and if
he disagrees with you, he letsyou know, he disagrees with you
because he knows his stuff.
(46:47):
He is, he's brilliant, but heany, this didn't happen to me,
but he can, I saw him putsomebody in their place with,
with style, but the personreally felt like they were let
known, you know, that theydidn't know what they were
(47:08):
talking about.
Yeah.
So, so of all people that I'vemet in my lifetime, you know,
and the, the vast number whohave been people, that's why
it's so easy to photograph thembecause I get to, I get to see
them as, as people, not asshining stars.
(47:28):
That's talent that they have.
That's the, that's theirabilities.
That's what you want to bringout in the picture.
That's the importance of makinga picture of somebody and, and
showing him or her for what heis or what she is.
Um, but honestly, uh, it's, it'sthe ability to get past that and
(47:55):
just see them as a person andthen create an image that, that
tells a story that is mostimportant is imaging your
subjects different when onedoes, where his or her beliefs
and emotions on their shirtsleeves versus one who might
(48:17):
have something to hide.
You know, I don't, you know,it's, it's, it's interesting I
try to get past that whenthey're in the studio or, or on
location.
I try to get past the, the thingthat they might be trying to
hide.
(48:38):
Um, and I'm trying to think ofsomebody who is, who is in that
situation that where they were,they were trying to hide a, a
personality trait or, or abelief or a, um, or, or
something that they had done.
Let me ask it differently if Iwould imagine you want your
subjects to feel as relaxed, asrelaxed as possible, but are
(48:59):
there times when tension makesfor the best image?
Absolutely true.
Yes, for sure.
Um, there's a story I read whenI was a kid about who was the,
uh, uh, Karsh.
He was a Canadian photographer,very prominent in the early part
(49:19):
of the 20th century for throughthe, through the middle, middle
of the 20th century.
He was, he was, uh, assigned tophotograph Winston Churchill and
Churchill was very relaxed.
Karsh didn't like the, didn'tlike the fact that Churchill
(49:41):
seem very relaxed.
He wanted to create Ascension.
So he walks over to Churchill,yanks the cat, yanks the cigar
at a Churchill's mouth, walksback to his camera and takes a
picture of Churchill's scowlingat the camera.
And I, I always thought, what agreat, what a great technique.
(50:02):
I, I've always looked forsomebody I'd have to do that
with.
And I never, never found it.
I never had anybody, you know,that, that I had to, I've had
people I've had to loosen up alittle bit, but, but never had
somebody who I wanted to createthe tension with where there was
none.
(50:22):
Um, but I think that's amasterful technique and I think
it's, you know, I think it'sgreat to be able to show kind of
tension, especially if, youknow, if the person has that
personality, demeanor, demeanor.
Um, I think, I think, you know,I want people to be comfortable
(50:46):
in front of the camera, but Ithink I want to draw out who
they really are, the essence oftheir personalities in front of
the camera.
So I, I'm trying to think ofsomebody who I would have to
loosen up.
Um, and I can't think ofsomebody or, you know, off the
(51:08):
bat who I would have to makefeel more comfortable.
I did a, I did a shoot with aband years ago, uh, called, um,
love, hate
Dr. Shepp (51:21):
[inaudible]
Harrison F. (51:21):
and their lead guitarist hated pictures and we
ended up screaming, cursing ateach other.
Right.
Because he was like, you know,just take the and picture
already.
I'm tired of it, you know, andcalling me an F in this and F a
nd that and the P ISA, you know,w hy?
(51:43):
And I just started giving theright back tool.
At the end of the shoot, hecame, came over and hugged me
and he said, I felt socomfortable with you.
Comfortable.
Y eah.
Right.
Because you didn't w rite mycrap and I was able to let you
know what I thought of you.
Right.
And he said, go ahead.
Psychologist has to be that too.
(52:03):
Seriously.
Y eah, n o, of course.
H uh.
Interesting.
So you kind of match the, youmatch the person for who they
are, right?
Yeah.
U m, and it, it's amazing c ausehe admitted to me at the end, he
says, you're a pretty good guy.
You to go out for a beer.
And I said, well, let's drinkhere.
I got plenty of beer in thefridge and we did it for hours.
(52:25):
You know, he was, he was fine.
Okay.
But how do you manage the waypeople respond to the final
product of your work?
I mean, you conceive ofsomething and, and decide what
your eye sees.
Um, and perhaps you collaboratewith your subjects ahead of
time.
I'm not sure, but I do.
But how do you decide what thefinal shot will be that's used?
(52:48):
Is that a collaboration?
Is that a decision that is givento you and then if so, how do
you not take that?
Personally, I, I don't take itpersonally.
Um, but I'm also fortunate inthe fact that, um, most of the
time the artists agree with mychoices.
Um, great.
And, and I'm, I'm glad I'm, I'm,I'm very thankful for that.
(53:09):
I recently shot, um, an artistback in April.
Um, I did a portrait shoot with,with him and, and um, um, it
was, it was amazing because Ichose 300 and something pictures
(53:30):
and we shot so many and I choseso many that I said, here are
the low Rez images.
You tell me what you like andthey keep coming back to me with
more and more and more and more,you know, and it's been months
now.
Um, and the thing that got me, Itook me back a little bit was
(53:55):
the fact that, um, they chosemostly different images to what
I chose.
I had no idea what they wouldlike, but they liked a lot of
the images that I, that I sentthem.
They just didn't, they justdidn't agree that my first
choices were their firstchoices.
Um, I can't take thatpersonally.
(54:16):
I don't care.
You know, I, I mean, I do care,but I, I, I, I, it doesn't
matter to me.
If somebody likes a specificimage, fine.
It's very subjective.
At the same time, if I thinkthat image is horrible and makes
and, and, and makes them lookbad and makes me look like a
fool for letting that pictureout, I'll argue the point.
I'll let them know what I think.
(54:38):
Um, you know, I don't, I don'tbelieve that anybody should be
bound to anything, you know,unless they're, unless they're,
um, there's a specific reason orneed for that particular image.
Some artists let me choose allthe pictures.
They just say you choose, whichI, you know, if I, if I know the
(55:01):
artist, I feel perfectlycomfortable in doing it.
Um, you know, like the Jackson'sfor instance, you know, I, I, I
choose mostly through, throughthe last, what, 40 years.
Um, they've let me choose, youknow, the ones that I think are,
are the best.
(55:22):
Uh, Michael always did.
Um, you know, Jermaine alwayshas.
Uh, although, you know, withMichael and Jermaine, it's
always been a, a realcollaboration with Michael.
It was always the Michael.
It was, it was, he would talk tome about what we were shooting,
especially in the studio orportrait wise.
(55:46):
Um, what it was going to be usedfor and we would collaborate.
But his attitude was always,let's make magic.
Let's just make magic.
And, and, and even on live showsafter every night he would, he
would come to me and he wouldsay, do we make magic tonight?
(56:08):
And it wasn't just about did wemake magic?
Did, did you make magic in thepictures?
Did I make magic on stage?
Was the audience is excitedabout the show, you know, as the
pictures will show, um, that wasthe magic.
The magic to him was pleasingthe people that were there to
see him.
(56:30):
And the same thing was truewith, with, you know, individual
shoots.
Um, with some things you can'tcollaborate, you just, you know,
documentary or photojournalism.
It's, it's just you, you show itfor what it is.
Anything else is a lie.
Anything else is contrived.
I was just going to say, it'sinteresting because you show,
(56:52):
you show it for what it is, butthe final results of a photo
shoot can often be a projectivetest, can't they?
I mean, I'm thinking of thephoto that you mentioned earlier
today, um, with Michael Jacksonand his hands spread out to the
side and that photo became aprojective test.
I remember that.
(57:12):
Um, people were saying he had aJesus complex.
He thought of himself as thesavior of the world because his
hands were outstretched asthough he was on a cross.
Um, and, and that wasn't at allwhat you intended or what he
intended.
I, I read that you were actuallytaking a picture of his, um, to
represent how large his handsfor, but, um, that was part of
(57:34):
what came out of it.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Please continue.
I'm sorry.
I, no, no, that's okay though.
Thank you.
Um, but it's interesting how astime goes by and perhaps even
when a photo first appears, itcan often be a projective test
as to what people think of thesubject.
It can.
(57:55):
Um, most of the time projectionhappens because of a trigger.
Um, so am I, am I pretty correcton that?
Yes.
Okay.
You took psych one Oh one I call.
I did.
Right.
And I, I, I failed.
I failed.
Okay.
I, my rat, whose name was Ben,get the damn thing to go through
(58:20):
the maze until I rub cheesealong the entire maze.
Okay.
Right.
Well, they don't tell you isthat many times those
experiments are not for therats.
They're experiments on thestudents.
I've gathered that I fell alittle with my rat, my rat.
I took my ride home.
So Ben and I became friends andhis name was Ben.
(58:41):
Okay.
Where did I named him?
Ben?
Speaker 5 (58:53):
So,
Harrison F. (58:54):
uh, here's, here's the, the, the thing about, um,
that shot, first of all, it, it,it did indeed project something
about Michael.
It was, it was Michaelprojecting his own desire to
heal the world because we shotfor heal the world.
(59:16):
Remember the song, so can'tsing.
I don't pretend it was shot forthat particular purpose.
It just got used for all sortsof other things.
But it was shot for that.
And um, yes, I, I liked, I wasalways amazed at the size of
(59:43):
Michael's hands.
He had huge hands and, and hehad this gesture that I thought
was, was one of his enduringtraits, which was he would wave
to somebody or wave somebodyover with his hands.
But it, how do I explain it?
(01:00:04):
It was like, it's very fatherly.
It was very, it was, it was, um,it was a comforting feeling
about, about him.
The way he would gesture to youto come over to him or, or to,
you know, he would wave to you.
It wasn't a wave.
Actual was a wave was an a wave.
(01:00:26):
Um, basically was aningratiating wave.
It was a wave of, of inclusion.
And, um, I said at one point, I,as I remember the way that shoot
evolves, I said, um, I had animpure wedding.
(01:00:47):
I had him, I had him with hisarms up in the air.
Um, and he said, okay.
He had a, he had a dance move.
He did on stage at the end of aman in the mirror where he would
stomp his foot and throw hisarms out.
And that's, that's what that is.
That's, that's that move.
That's exactly that move.
(01:01:08):
And, and I said, so works forman in the mirror, works for
heal the world.
It works for the four it wouldwork for, we are the world.
And he said, yeah, it's allabout healing, right man.
And the mirror is about healing,you know, just like heal the
world.
Um, and you know, the, thepicture was later used for, uh,
(01:01:35):
heal the world promotion.
And, um, I think what I, I thinkwhat I love about it is that it,
it, it really, you had to knowMichael to know that that really
depicted his personality and howhe felt about the world.
(01:01:55):
I don't think it was a Jesuscomplex by any, by any stretch
of the imagination.
I don't think Michael consideredhimself to be God or godlike or,
or, you know, a, a, a secondcoming or anything.
Um, I don't think that was his,that was his intention.
I think his, his sole intentionwas that of inclusion of saying
(01:02:18):
we working together can, canmake a change, you know, um,
heal the world, make it a betterplace for you and for me and the
entire human race.
And don't ask me why I knowlyrics because I usually don't
remember what you're expecting.
But you know, that's the kindof, that's the kind of
(01:02:41):
perspective that Michael broughtto, to a shoot.
Like, you know, we're, we'rewhere he would do a move like
that, especially if he knew thatthat was kind of what it was for
and where it was going.
Um, I think that he had a lotof, he had a lot of moves
choreographed that, um, said alot.
(01:03:07):
And I think a lot of what hestood for was, um, exactly that,
you know, he, he SWI he wrote,heal the world.
That's why he wrote earth song.
That's why he wrote, um, youknow, we are the world.
I, um, got to give Lionel partof the credit for that, but you
(01:03:29):
know, um, and you saw him duringthis as it, the preparation.
I did not know.
I, I actually came back herefrom, from England with the
intention of doing it.
And, um, through politics Iended up doing something
completely different for himthat I still won't talk about.
(01:03:50):
But, um, I, I was, I was notable to shoot, uh, I was going
to be doing the tour.
Um, there were some weirdpolitics with AEG, um, that I
think relate a lot to everythingthat happened to Michael after
(01:04:12):
that.
Um, I did not want to be caughtup in those, but I, you know,
um, I did not end up shootingrehearsals and honestly, I can't
think of many, um, many jobsthat I, I was affected where I
(01:04:34):
was affected by political sillypolitical decisions.
Some of the artists that youworked with, um, some of the
artists that you worked with,you saw evolve over large spans
of time because you would workwith them consistently over the
years.
Yeah, quite a few.
And, and I, I remember seeingartists in, in the 80s, early
(01:05:01):
eighties, who, um, maybe in thelate seventies, and then not
seeing them for years and thenpicking up again and seeing, you
know, seeing them again, um, andseeing how they had evolved.
Um, uh, Pat Benatar was one ofthem.
I never, I never really, reallyworked with her other than on,
(01:05:24):
uh, her first.
Her first tour, uh, back in what, 1978.
You know, I, I, I kinda did a, aclub tour with her and a couple
other artists.
And then really I liked her.
(01:05:46):
I liked, I liked, um, I need alover who won't drive me crazy.
Um, and I liked her versionbetter than John Mellencamp
version.
Um, although I got to like hisversion too.
But, um, I then I didn't see herfor six or seven years and I was
(01:06:07):
pretty amazed to see how she'dblown up.
Um, I got to see Whitney Houstonfrom, from, you know, the very
early days.
Um, and it was amazing to seehow she, you know, how she blew
up.
Um, she was brilliant.
I mean, one of the, if one ofthe greatest singers of, if not
(01:06:27):
the greatest female vocalist ofmy, of my lifetime, um, I got to
see, you know, but I got to seeher as a, um, as a fledgling
artist, uh, doing small venuesand, and, and, um, I
photographed her on a TVappearance, I think was it young
(01:06:48):
and the restless, um, withJermaine Jackson.
And, um, that was, that waspretty cool.
And then I, you know, um, Iworked with her on some bigger,
bigger gigs and some biggervenues later on.
Um, and, uh, Amy Winehouse, um,you know, I, I watched for the
(01:07:12):
first three years of her, of hercareer as she started out, um,
right up until right up untilshe got really big and, and was
reluctant to do much of anythingpublicly.
Um, and I think that was, youknow, the results of her
addiction.
(01:07:33):
Um, it was very, she is verysad.
I w I thought Amy was just awonderful person.
Um, there was a day that I'm on,on a bus going from, uh, um, I
was coming down from King'scross or I was going up to
King's cross on, on, um, on, onthis bus in London.
(01:07:56):
And she gets on with her guitarand her and her in Camden with
her guitar in her amp and she'skind of struggling, you know,
she's little girl, she's not,not huge.
And I, I, I knew her pretty welland I jumped up and ran, grabbed
her amp, and she's like, what?
(01:08:19):
And then she realized who it wasand, and, um, she says, I could
get it all.
And I said, no, no, no.
Let me get it.
And she, okay, where are yougoing?
She said she was going to do agig at, at, um, um, university
college, which is, uh, I went toschool there for a time and, and
, um, so I said, Oh, I knowwhere you're, where you're
(01:08:41):
playing.
Well, I, uh, you know, I, Ikinda guessed she was in, um,
uh, the, this building straightup from the gate.
And, and, um, I said, I'll helpyou get the, you know, get your
stuff there.
You have to do that.
It's fine.
No, no, no, no, I'll help you.
And she was really gratefulbecause it was, he could tell
she was like struggling with herbackpack and her guitar and her,
(01:09:05):
her, her amp, and, and there wasnobody to help her.
Nobody showed up at the gig tohelp her, you know, and I said,
just, just wait here with yourstuff and I'll be right back.
And I went inside, I got the,um, one of the custodial staff
to, to help her drag it into the, uh, into the venue.
(01:09:25):
Um, and she says, are you goingto stay?
You know, so I said, yeah, youknow, I'll stay in, stayed watch
the gig.
And that was, you know, it wasjust, it was fun cause I got to
see the gig instead of actuallytaking pictures of it.
Um, very lost soul I think.
And, and um, you know, it's,it's just very sad to see
somebody not make it to, to, youknow, the, um, the peak of their
(01:09:52):
career of course.
And, um, I think she would havebeen, if she were alive today.
I mean, who knows, but, but Ithink she would be as big as
Whitney, as big as, uh, youknow, I, I mean, I don't really
want to compare it to anybody.
I don't know who, um, but Ithink she would have been an
(01:10:13):
absolute superstar.
Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
This has been managed the moment with dr Shep, my
physic collection of moments.
It's how you manage the momentsthat makes the difference.
In part two of our conversation,Harrison and I chat about the
cultural significance of notonly his work, but also of music
and other art forms as well, andhe also shares his advice for
performers about learning fromfailure.
(01:10:45):
That's next time on the managethe moment podcast.
Thanks again for listening.
I hope you'll join us for thosemoments.
You can subscribe to the managethe moment podcast for free just
by clicking the subscribe buttonwherever you're listening to
this podcast, and then you'll besure to get the newest episodes
as soon as they're uploaded.
And for more information aboutmanage the moment podcast, you
(01:11:07):
can see the episode notes forthis broadcast.
You will also find us on socialmedia, and I'm on Twitter and
Instagram at dr Shep.
Thanks so much for listening andtaking the time to share these
moments with us.
Until next time.
Speaker 6 (01:11:20):
Right.
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