May 21, 2025 • 53 mins
Holly Rine, associate professor of history at Le Moyne College, offers a compelling perspective on teaching the Doctrine of Discovery at a Jesuit institution. With remarkable candor, she shares her own journey from unfamiliarity with this history to becoming an advocate for institutional honesty about colonization's ongoing impacts.
The conversation explores how critical examination of historical texts like the Jesuit Relations reveals their propagandistic nature. What many accept as straightforward historical accounts were actually carefully crafted narratives designed to secure European funding for colonial projects. Rine encourages her students to question these sources by asking "who wrote them, for whom, and to what purpose?" This approach transforms passive learning into active critical thinking about how history shapes our present.
Particularly fascinating is the discussion of Onondaga Lake as both sacred space to the Haudenosaunee and contested territory through colonization. Rine's work examines how different cultural perspectives view the lake – as either a sacred gathering place or merely as an economic resource. This dichotomy continues today with debates about development projects like Micron's semiconductor facility, drawn to Syracuse largely because of its abundant water resources. The environmental degradation of the lake stands as a physical manifestation of colonial attitudes toward land and water.
The podcast reveals how Indigenous knowledge systems challenge conventional academic approaches. While Western historians rely heavily on written documents, the Haudenosaunee preserve history through oral tradition, wampum belts, and a relational understanding with the natural world. These alternative ways of recording history offer transformative perspectives on our relationship with the environment and each other – particularly relevant as we face climate change and environmental crisis.
As America approaches its 250th anniversary, this episode presents a timely opportunity to reassess the origins of American democracy. The Haudenosaunee Great Law of Peace provided a model of democratic governance that included women and non-human beings in decision-making processes centuries before the Constitution was drafted. By acknowledging these influences and confronting uncomfortable truths about our shared history, we open possibilities for healing relationships with both the land and its original stewards.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Philip Arnold, I'm aprofessor in religion and
Native American IndigenousStudies and the founding
director of the Scano Great LawPeace Center at Syracuse
University, and I'm here withI'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of
(00:54):
the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne,and I was on the planning
committee of the Scano Center,the founding committee.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I also am on the board of the Indigenous Values
Initiative and thank you all fortuning in again.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
This podcast is sponsored by Henry Luce
Foundation and today we're veryfortunate to have a friend of
ours, professor Holly Rine, atLe Moyne University and also on
the collaborative of the ScanoGreat Law Peace Center.
Holly has been studying in thearea of the Doctrine of
(01:37):
Discovery and doing historicalwork locally, but I'm going to
have her introduce herself tothe listening public.
Holly welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Thank you very much.
I'm really pleased to be here.
Yes, I am Holly Rine.
I am an associate professor ofhistory at Le Moyne College and,
as Phil said, I'm also on theacademic collaborative of the
Scano Center and I'm justthrilled to be here and have
this conversation.
(02:09):
It's such a great service, Ithink, to so many people who
just aren't as familiar with thedoctrine as they should be.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Exactly where I wanted to start, holly, because
you teach at a Jesuit university, jesuit college.
We're still college for themoment.
You're still a college, butyou're D1, so I don't know.
It confuses me.
But yeah, so you're teaching ata Jesuit college and,
(02:38):
interestingly enough, you knowthere's a lot of Jesuit
institutions that are veryinterested in this legacy of the
doctrine of discovery, perhapsmore than other Catholic
institutions.
That's just my impression fromthe outside, and I know you've
been working on this for a longtime.
But how do you approach it at aJesuit college?
(02:59):
How do you think your studentsreceive this information about
the Doctrine of Discovery?
And I'd be just generallyinterested in your experience.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, I mean it's.
So.
I've been at Le Moyne now thisis my 19th year and I will say
myself I was really quiteunfamiliar with the Doctrine of
Discovery when I came.
Mary MacDonald may she rest inpeace a former religion studies
professor, one of yourcolleagues as well, really
(03:34):
brought me in to this discussion, and so it's been a process for
me as well, and through these19 years, really discovering the
students don't know the historyVery few, and as I learned it,
and at a Jesuit school where wetalk about social justice, it
(03:56):
was like well, this becomes ourduty, our responsibility.
If we are saying we are aJesuit school and we are
following in this history andtradition of social justice,
well, what does that exactlymean before social justice
became a thing?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
And we have so much at Le Moyne that harkens back to
the relationship with theOnondagas on our our the name
Lemoyne, simon Lemoyne as theJesuit who came to this area,
and you ask a student who SimonLemoyne was and oftentimes well,
(04:38):
he founded the college in 1940,1946.
Well, no, he did not 1946.
Well, no, he did not.
So it really became importantto me and I'm making slow
inroads into having studentsunderstand exactly what, what,
(05:00):
what was happening here.
But I was actually the firstperson they hired to teach
Native American history at allas well, at Le Moyne.
So I said this this, theDoctrine and Discovery, has
become for me more than justthis, is a really interesting
area to teach.
(05:20):
This is a responsibility to say.
If we are parts of a Jesuittradition and part of this
particular history, we need toknow about it.
And the students extremelyreceptive, shocked really, when
(05:41):
we start.
So I've had opportunities.
It's it's not college wide, butyou know, in in my particular
classes we do the, theseprojects and, uh, looking at the
doctrine and looking at thenLemoyne and looking at the
history, how, how the historyhas been told, versus you know
this, this counter narrative and, um, I, I love our students
(06:05):
because they're like, no, weneed to do these projects and
people need to know this, andthey've come up with some really
interesting projects with QRcodes and everything to help
educate their peers.
So I've done a project.
Particularly, we started doinga public history program here at
(06:29):
Le Moyne, so an introduction topublic history.
So I was like, well, here's ourchance.
So we take a look at thedoctrine of discovery and we
take a look at this history andI allow students to come up with
their own projects.
And how do you tell thenincoming students about the
history that they are now a partof?
(06:50):
You know if you're going to sayyou're a Lemoyne Dolphin, you
are a part of this.
And they've done wonderfullyfrom podcasts.
They created their own podcastto, like I said, tours, so you
could take your phone and do theQR codes in order to so they
(07:13):
have.
Those who are have beenintroduced to the doctrine, have
realized their ownresponsibility as a Le Moyne
student.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Well, we live in a very vibrant part of the world.
When the Jesuits came into thisterritory, they recorded the
first histories that werewritten about the Haudenosaunee,
and that's how England learnedabout.
The Haudenosaunee was throughwhat the Jesuits were writing
and publishing all over Europe,and they came into this
(07:43):
continent through the doctrineof discovery to Christianize and
install a patriarchy among amatrilineal culture which
permeated all of the Americas,frankly.
So today we still have theOnondaga Nation organized around
(08:06):
their matrilineal clan system.
Then we have this French fortthat we were trying all of us
were trying to work to repurposeinto the telling of this
history people know nothingabout, as you indicated at the
beginning of this podcast, andso it was quite a venture,
because we had great opposition,and a lot of it was coming from
(08:29):
Le Moyne in the beginning.
They did not want usrepurposing the French fort and
telling a different perspectiveof what actually happened in
Haudenosaunee territory.
So you were part of thiscollaborative as well, but you
were right in the thick of it inLemoyne.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I have to say that you were kind of fearless,
pushing back against some of theJesuits in your college, you
know, insisting that they listen, rather than you know sort of
preach um some colleagues inyour own department.
So I mean I it was, that was.
(09:10):
I think that was really alesson for us to see you, to see
you take on your owninstitution Brave yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
And again, it was.
You know, I, I, I look at, uh,at Daniel Berrigan.
You know, one of the kind ofthe Jesuit many people are
familiar with, big socialactivist, and one of his
statements was you know, knowwhere you stand and stand there.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
You know.
So it's, it's and it's beenreally eye opening with these
conversations.
I think, as people come around,been really eye-opening with
these conversations.
I think as people come aroundit's slow, but one of the
Ignatian principles of educationis through Ignatian principles
(09:57):
of conversation, which is totruly sit and listen and in many
respects, right.
It goes back to Haudenosauneeideas of how you come to a
decision.
Unfortunately, in the modernworld, many in the Jesuit fold
you know it's well.
No, we have decisions to makeand you know we've got, we've
got to move forward.
So adopting that has been, Ithink, very beneficial,
(10:20):
primarily for the students yousaid you know I'm not going to
fight fights necessarily.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You've got to pick them.
Well, there's a reason.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
The first peace council, the first peace
movement in the United Statesoccurred in Syracuse right and
the Berrigans were very much apart of that movement.
But it's also the heart ofHaudenosaunee territory, the
heart of the Confederacy andspreading the great, binding
(10:50):
peace around the world.
So they were definitelyinfluenced by all of that.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Oh, yes, and when students are introduced to that
concept as well.
So it's like you know, yes, wehave American democracy because,
yes, I just finished teaching aclass in the American
Revolution.
But as I come back for myNative American history class,
where we're going to go deeperinto really, when we look at
representative government, whenwe look at true ideals of
(11:20):
democracy, you look at the greatlaw of peace and it was done
earlier and, in my perspective,with the voices of women and
really kind of looking at thisidea of consensus building
better.
It was done better and it's asI students have been been, you
(11:45):
know, quite responsible when youstart really looking at the
evidence.
And, sandy, I mean you talkedabout the Jesuit relations and
and I mean those are the sourceswe have right For historians.
We need the Jesuit relations,those are the sources we have
Right, and one of the biggestchallenges is teaching students
how to read those sources isteaching students how to read
those sources?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, mother's Fathers.
I wanted to ask about thatbecause that goes right to the
heart of doing history.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yes, right, and you can't have history without the
written sources, but we doexercises.
If we look at these sources,the Jesuit relations, without
any kind of critical eye, oh my,there's a history we cannot
tell and unfortunately that hashappened.
(12:32):
It's like, well, here's thewritten sources and we're going
to take that as gospel truthwith the Jesuits gospel truth.
But once again, once we startthinking about and students
pushing, I'm like why were theywritten?
Who were they written for?
What was, what was the purposeand what is it now that we can
(12:57):
see in these relations?
So, you know, when they talkabout Lemoyne and his speech,
you know, when they talk aboutLemoyne and his speech, um, when
he, when he shows up atOnondaga and he, oh, that, that
story of him, you know, you justkind of see him walking around
and you know pronouncing in thisgreat performance and according
to him, all the Onondagas werejust applauding and this is this
(13:19):
is, oh, this is beautiful.
This is wonderful.
Can we get enough and to reallystart saying, ok, well, here's
events that are happening in theworld.
Why might, even if we do haveOnondaga approval of some of
(13:40):
these statements what might begoing on here?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Are they?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
really like oh, please, come and build your
chapels.
And once you really startthinking critically, knowing
more of the context and knowingabout the great law of peace and
understanding, then thedoctrine of discovery and how
these, these ideas kind of cometo to take over students get it
(14:12):
yeah, they sure do they get it?
Um, but it is a process, I mean, and that speech that lemoyne
gave, and I crack up too becausebecause we do have Simon's Pub
on campus and we have?
we have.
It's a picture paintingsupposed to be, of Simon Lemoyne
, and I just I just cry becauseit kind of looks like the
Marlboro man and I was likewe're still kind of promoting
(14:35):
this, this, this idea, thisversion of you know, the, the,
the vitality and the oh, such acharismatic figure and you know
he may have been, but thesewords are.
We need them, those are oursources, but we need to be
careful, careful, careful withhow we take a look at them.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, yeah, they have definite agenda in publishing
those yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
So they can continue to be funded by the European
monarchs to penetrate this land.
And there was only.
It's not like.
This was the first time theOnondaga met the Jesuits they
were aware.
They were north of the StLawrence, penetrating the Wendat
(15:25):
, and they were chaining womenin the forest until they would
accept to take vows ofChristianity and be subservient
to their husbands.
It was so brutal those first 30years the Jesuits were up there
.
Don't think for a momentOnondaga didn't already know
about this.
Oh yeah.
(15:46):
So when the French fortnarrative that had been teaching
this community about thesefirst relations were about the
Onondaga asking them to pleasecome and Christianize us, you
can see it was pure propaganda.
Oh, the spirit in which thoseJesuit relations were written.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
But you know, there are little nuggets of Because we
have other evidence.
Of course you know we have theevidence of the land grant
Arriving with yeah arriving withthis land grant.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
A deed essentially to 600 square miles of land, which
isn't in the relations, ofcourse, but that's another piece
of evidence of really thedoctrine of discovery.
So those you know, just a fewyears after Lemoyne they're
coming up and setting up shop,knowing that they're taking and
(16:43):
appropriating land.
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So so there, you know the, the flourishes of speeches
, and you know all the good, thegood deeds that are presented
in the, in the relations, arenot always backed up by the,
even the written evidence, youknow.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Well, the relations are talking about this culture
that live in peace and theynever scold their children or
hit them.
The men respect the women, thewomen respect the men.
They have plentiful gardens offood and crops and these
heathens need to understand thepower of God and that they sin.
(17:26):
These people are sinners butthey don't have even have a
concept of sin, I mean those areall negatives.
This is all written.
Those are all the negatives ofthe relationship.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
And it's just because I think people then, you know,
become more open to these ideas.
I think once what happened atgeorgetown university yeah the,
the selling of slaves.
So they had this enslavedpopulation.
Students were just like what?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
yeah what?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
what do you mean?
That can't have been socialjustice.
It's like social justice is isnew right I'm like you know, but
as like, let's we take a littlebit closer, look at what the
Jesuits again we're asking.
It's like okay, it's okay tosell these enslaved people to
(18:16):
Louisiana parish plantations, aslong as they continue to get
their catechism.
Yeah, right as long as theCatholic education and that
they're, they're the sacramentsare available to them and
they're, they're going to haveCatholic instruction, right.
And I was like so that the goalwasn't social justice here on
earth.
The goal is, yeah, we're goingto, we're going to convert you
(18:39):
and you're going to have thiswonderful experience in an
afterworld you don't necessarilybelieve in or want you know.
So I was like we have to kindof take a look just because,
just because we talk aboutsocial justice now doesn't mean
we talked about that then.
So watching Georgetown reallykind of deal with that.
(19:01):
Yeah really kind of deal withthat, yeah.
And then when we take a lookand we see more colleges and
universities focusing on theirhistory with indigenous peoples
as well, you know, students werelike, okay, yeah, we are a part
of something bigger here aswell.
That that which is always atrick getting students at Le
(19:25):
Moyne to understand that historydidn't just happen elsewhere.
History happened here.
Very significant things happenhere that are very much
connected.
So just because it happenedhere doesn't mean it's
insignificant.
It happened here and it'sreally a crucial part of a
larger picture and we're notseparate from it.
(19:48):
So we talk about, really, youknow, indigenous ideas of
history are much more relevantright.
They're part of today as opposedto, I think you know.
So many of you know again,history happened over there, or
some other time, some otherplace, and I was like no, now.
(20:11):
Now you are a part of thisstory.
What do you do with this story?
What is your role?
You're a part of it now, you'renot just studying it.
You are a part.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
And it's not like it was just in the past.
Right, it's relevant, yeah,right.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
But you talk about social justice.
Well, I said, when the Jesuitsfirst came into Wendat territory
, they claimed theyChristianized the whole nation
within 30 years.
And yet there were oratorsgoing to Europe critiquing the
greatest thinkers in Europe atthe time who professed to be
(20:50):
practicing equality and socialjustice and all the things
you're talking about.
But they're saying you're onlyequal and just under the rule of
your monarch.
And we're kind of being fedthese same narratives today.
That's what Putin's, you know,telling his people you're all
free and equal.
Seriously, and we're kind ofshifting in that direction
(21:14):
ourselves in this country.
So you know, you've got to bemade aware of the seriousness of
these discussions.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And they haven't gone away.
The past is not past, it'spresent and part of our future.
I think I mean this is fromAdam, our producer, Because he
asks what does the Catholictheology of the priests who
think conversion and Catholicpractice of the enslaved folks
(21:47):
was doing for them, for thepriests or for the church?
I think it's a good question,given your comments on
Georgetown, for example.
On Georgetown, for example, Imean, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
What does the catechism have to do with
holding these people in bondage?
How does that liberate them?
It's yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean so.
Yeah, I mean the idea of youknow being held in bondage on
earth.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
That's fine and really one of the goals of the
Jesuits in the 18th century.
Right martyrdom, everybody waslooking for suffering on earth
for the greater good of thegreater glory of God.
So, again, social justicedoesn't fit into that, because
(22:43):
it's better for you to die, it'sbetter for you to be, it's okay
for you to be held in bondageas long as you are, you know,
maintaining Catholic practiceand maintaining the sacraments,
and you know, and the priestsare the ones responsible for
(23:04):
making sure that that happensright.
So duty done.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
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If so, please check our websiteat
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listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
You were present at our conversations with David
McCollum, Father McCollum at LeMoyne, and we were at it for
three years or more, I think,with the Onondaga there at Le
Moyne, and we were at it forthree years or more, I think,
with the Onondaga there at LeMoyne, and I remember one
exchange where we were talkingabout the martyrs actually, and
(23:53):
their names on your dorms, Ithink, and I think it was Jake
Edwards asked well, what is amartyr?
And they explained somebody wasspreading the gospel among
non-Christian people, you know,among Native people.
I don't think they use the wordheathen to be, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
No no.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
But then Jake said, oh you, you mean invaders, which
completely flips the script,you know.
I mean it's just.
It was just a kind of.
It was a revelation to me, youknow, because and I'm not, I'm
not catholic, of course, and Ibut you know but martyrs only
operate in a certain kind ofworldview, in a framework right
and maybe a, maybe a historicalone, you know, but you know, to
(24:46):
me that was a kind of revelation.
It sort of quieted the room fora while, I think.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Yes, yes, yes, it did .
And I mean I just also remember, I believe, at one point I'm
not sure if it was David orsomeone, but just saying that
they were looking forreconciliation at this point.
And was it Jake?
It was like no, not now, not inour lifetimes, not going to
(25:12):
happen.
It may have, even it may havebeen Oren I'm not, I don't, but
I remember.
I remember that exchangeextremely well and I talk about
that with my students as well.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
This is, this is something that is not.
It's not like okay, you know,all right, yeah, we get you, you
know great.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I understand now yeah .
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Let's move on, and, and, and, and.
That really hits home for themthat they are part of this.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
All right.
Maybe we can talk aboutreconciliation when we can dip a
cup in any stream and drinkfreely from it without being
poisoned.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Right, and that gets to your.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Begin the conversation about
reconciliation.
There need to be changes rightbefore we can arrive at that
sort of conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
As Adam also interjects, Oren says there can
be no reconciliation when thereis no point to which one can be
conciled which to which one canbe conciled a strange word, but
you know you can't be reconcileduntil you can be conciled.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
And to jump in there right, what oran is pointing out
right is the wordreconciliation is a return to
when things were going good,when there was a good time.
When spouses reconcile, it'srecognizing the good times.
Yeah, where in the 500 years ofhistory is the good times?
Where is that point to whichone can be conciled, right?
(26:49):
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Sandy's point gets us kind of to this article.
You wrote, maybe, the titlepage, yes, onondaga Lake, sacred
Space, contested Space, andit's a remarkable piece and I
think what you're trying to do.
(27:14):
You can tell us what you'retrying to do, but from my point
of view you're trying tolocalize history, you're trying
to give it some local importance, but also thinking about the
environmental impacts and otherkinds of impacts that history
can tell a story or weave astory of a place and it's
(27:41):
difficult past in a way thathelps us revisit where we are
right.
But you tell us what you wantedto accomplish with this piece.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Yeah, there's a few things I'm really again focusing
on local that, yes, you know, Iwant us to take a look at this,
this, this bit of local history.
And when we look at onondagalake, right, the story of it is
primarily the modern story of,of the pollution it's like.
(28:14):
Well, there's more to it aswell, and if we want to look, we
want to get to the point of, assandy said, you know, it'd be
great if we could actually, youknow, dip our cups.
It'd be great if you could dipyour toe in there.
I mean at this point in time,right, that this, it didn't have
(28:35):
to be this way.
To be this way and this is whatI try to tell students with
history all the time it wasn'tjust a set of things that have
to unfold in a particular way.
We make choices, choices weremade that got us to this point.
But if you look at thatoriginal history of the lake,
the sacred nature of thisparticular place and we as
(29:01):
Americans talk about theimportance of sacred places and
I talk about that in in thearticle as well I, joe Biden,
talked about on January 6th withthe, with the attacks on the
Capitol, that a sacred place ofgovernment, of, of founding was,
was attacked.
It's like, well, that happenedhere, that happened at Onondaga
(29:23):
Lake.
We don't recognize that, but itdid.
Maybe, if we can recognize this, at one point this gets to the
conciled part.
Maybe we can look at that bitof history and say there is
another way, there is anotherapproach, and this approach may
(29:48):
take another 400 years.
But, it is something that we canreally take a look at and think
about.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think the you know, the value of, from our point of
view, is the value of the 250celebration next year is that we
can really reassess wheredemocracy has been inspired.
And maybe you know, think about.
You know it's always a standardpractice of the Haudenosaunee
(30:24):
to include other non-humanbeings in their democratic
processes, right?
So this radical democraticprocess does have the water in
it.
It does have animals and treesand the land and things like
that, which is something that,of course, our founding fathers
completely neglected.
You know the role of thenon-human persons and more than
(30:50):
human, and of course women andothers, you know, but it's not
finished.
I guess is what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
It's not finished, right, I mean.
So we've made choices, we cancontinue to make choices and we
have other models to look at,especially, as you said, right,
this time there's a lot of justfinish the American Revolution
course and one of the things wewere talking about is the future
of the American Revolution.
What, what does this look like?
(31:23):
And, you know, students werereally, really thoughtful about,
really, the challenges thatwe're facing at this point in
time, backsliding and goingright back into deregulation and
what can happen to theenvironment, and it's like, okay
(31:49):
, we're at this pivot pointagain of where are we heading?
And now we're in this time ofsocial justice where we had the
late Pope actually wrote anencyclical dealing with the
environment, right, so we'veswitched these ideas of of what
(32:09):
land and water and, you know,the non-human animals, their
value no longer necessarily justeconomic, to to, you know,
subdue the earth, and you know,but now, oh wait, we live
amongst, we are part, we areresponsible again, right.
(32:33):
So I think we are at that moment, and at a, at a Jesuit
institution, I think, of saying,okay, we can switch this view
and we can look back on thatdoctrine of discovery, we can
look back at that great law ofpeace and that kind of that
clash really right, you had twocompletely different worldviews.
(32:54):
Here we are at a moment.
We can make a decision.
We can make a decision.
What will those decisions be?
Kind of moving forward as welook to the history that has
informed us and informed thisarea, whether we look at
Onondaga Lake, whether we lookat the Sullivan Clinton
campaigns during the AmericanRevolution which again comes as
(33:18):
a shock to a lot of students, Mm, hmm.
They don't know it.
You know that George Washingtonordered this attack into the
area, that really the goal was,of course, to eliminate the
Haudenosaunee and to take thatland and those resources.
(33:39):
It's like, okay, we're at amoment, what do we do with that?
And I think it's a really bothexciting and fearful time.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, both are at play.
It is fearful and it isexciting.
And you know you talk about.
You know, on Doggle Lake, let'stalk about the erie canal.
You know, our first encounterwhere we're going to share in
the river of life, the, the tworow wampum, the hood and shoney
present to the dutch.
(34:14):
We're going to share in theriver of life down parallel
paths and not interfere with oneanother.
Well, you have to firstdetermine your perspective of
life.
Is it about your relationshipwith the natural world?
Does the Haudenosaunee see it?
Or is this life the spirit ofan economic growth right through
(34:34):
a New York state, with what wasto follow, and that's the Erie
Canal?
It's an artificial waterway.
We're hearing talk right nowabout micron associating with
being the present day Erie Canalof New York State and that's a
flag.
(34:55):
That is terrifying, knowingwhat the Erie Canal did to the
Haudenosaunee throughout thisland, disrupting this whole
ecological system, throughoutthis land, disrupting this whole
ecological system, and withMicron and terror, we're right
at that moment.
You're right.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And with Micron.
And again, why are they lookinghere?
It's water resources.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Water.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
And that's a fun thing with students as well.
It's like we don't understand,like the crucial nature of water
, because we have so much of ithere right, right.
I mean half the time I moved tosyracuse and there's a hole in
my basement.
I was like why is there a holein the floor of my basement?
I've never seen that beforeright and they're like oh that
then, syracuse.
(35:40):
That's the difference betweenhaving a basement or an or or or
a pool or a lake yes, yes inyour house.
So that role of water, whichagain I mean so the past week it
hasn't stopped right In so muchof the world that is such a
(36:00):
focal point where it's not herein the same way, right, but
Micron is here because of thewater.
What is that going to do aswell?
So, yeah, sandy, that wholeidea of the Erie Canal, yes,
this is going to be a neweconomic revolution for this
area.
They're here because of thewater resources.
(36:23):
The Jesuits were reallyinterested in the salt.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
You know how do we talk about sacred space?
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And here we go again.
What choices, you know.
And even with the aquariumwhich is just continues to.
You know, I was like we'regoing to build an aquarium it's
like what to show what the fishwho should have been living in
the in the lake look like youknow, this is you know what?
What are the choices that that,that we make?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
No, I mean, I think what you've done in this article
is is set up.
You know our thinking about thelong duration, right?
You know the long duration ofof Onondaga Lake.
You know our thinking about thelong duration, right, you know
the long duration of OnondagaLake.
You know from what we callprehistory, although it's just
history.
I mean it's just history, Imean because the Onondaga are
(37:18):
there and they're telling usabout this history.
And that's what we were tryingto do at the Scano Center is
trying to give people a sense ofvalues before we can, you know,
so that it can set up aconversation right, set up our
students to think about what,what, what will be our future
(37:39):
and to leave with a critical eyeyeah about what's happening
around them yes
Speaker 4 (37:44):
and yes, I mean that is so from you know how do we
read the sources, what you know,everything.
Yes, you have to, you have toask those questions and you have
to be open minded.
Like I said, when I got here in2006, you know, I wasn't that
familiar with the doctrine ofdiscovery and it was me sitting
(38:07):
and listening, just shutting mymouth, and in conversation with
the Onondagas, I took thatJesuit principle of listen,
don't come to conclusions untilyou listen and learn.
And I listened and I I think Ilearned quite a bit and it's
(38:30):
it's gotten me to Right, andthis was after my PhD.
Right, I got my PhD.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I know it all.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
God, no, and that's that's another thing I hope my
students really get out of.
That is that you know this.
This is a continuing mystudents really get out of that
is that you know this, this is acontinuing.
I'm going to teach you thingsthat are going to be challenged
and should be challenged.
And you don't just sit thereand say well, Dr Ryan said that,
therefore, it's true.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
No, they don't do that anymore.
They don't take it.
They don't take what you say asgospel At.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
LeMoyne, they still kind of do.
I told them I was going tostart lying one day, just to see
what happens.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, just use the strategy of the Jesuits 17th
century, jeff.
But you know, I mean, of course, I mean I was always interested
and I have a similar kind ofhistory to yours in that, you
know, I really started learningabout the doctrine of discovery
in the early 2000s we'll sayaround 2004 or 2005, when we
(39:30):
started to get to know SteveNewcomb, for example, and his
work.
But of course I was alwaysinterested.
If you're teaching NativeAmerica, you're always aware of
the contact situation, right,always aware of the contact
situation, right.
It might be manifest destiny,it might be just outright
(39:50):
colonialism or conquest or theIndian Wars or whatever you're.
You know wherever you are inthat kind of history.
But you know the doctrine ofdiscovery, I guess maybe as a
category sort of encapsulatesthat whole kind of mass of myth,
(40:11):
that kind of myth, mythologythat has driven the American
culture so much.
But I mean, that's the way Ithink about it.
You know that I've always kindof been working on it.
You know that I've always kindof been working on it.
But then you know this, thisidea of the doctrine of
discovery and the specificity ofthe documents, you know, coming
(40:33):
from the 15th century orearlier, just that kind of
galvanizes everything.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Yes, and and to look at really how that that
continues then right Through.
That continues then rightthrough through areas that that
students are more familiar with,like Cherokee removal and
removal period and the courtcases that that students are
(41:00):
vaguely familiar, this, thiskind of happened, you know.
But to really look into thatidea of the legal march here,
right, so we talk about theUnited States for a country of
laws.
Well, where do these laws then,you know, come from?
And this was one part of mylearning process.
(41:22):
So, yeah, I knew Johnson vMcIntosh, I knew about all of
these things.
I'm like, oh wait, I knew, Iknew Johnson v McIntosh, I knew
about all of these things.
I'm like, oh wait, this is acontinuation of that doctrine.
Then that that that legal rightI win because I it's, it's the
law I win because it's the legaldocument that says I own this
(41:42):
land.
And to say that in US law thatcame from canon law, that came
from the Pope, which at the timewas the law right and how it
moves into US law.
So we really view that all theway up to, of course, the Cheryl
(42:06):
case, the Cheryl Oneida case,and students are blown away when
they read.
They not only read that, butthat, that footnote, and talking
about basically that theOneidas, it's it's too late for
them to claim the land, and it'skind of.
I wish I had the quote in frontof me.
But what's that Latches?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
right.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
That this is basically part of how it's been
done.
This is the law, this is thedoctrine of discovery.
And then students realize thatwas Ruth Bader Ginsburg who
wrote it and they're like what?
Right who wrote it and they'relike what, what, what?
No, it's like.
This becomes that crucialelement, then, of that legal
(42:54):
nature which then gets us backto the great law of peace Right.
Which doesn't necessarily berecognized as law.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I mean Adam has it here.
Doctrine of discovery I meanAdam has it here Doctrine of
Discovery, fee titled to thelands occupied by Indians when
the colonists arrived, becamevested in the sovereign, first
the discovering European nationand later the original states
and then the United States.
That's Ruth Bader Ginsburgfirst footnote.
(43:24):
So yeah, I mean, and for me, inreligion, right, I mean
religion we talk about sacredplaces all the time.
We, you know, we talk about allof these theological elements,
but the doctrine of discoverybrings together religion and law
with.
(43:45):
You know textual exegesis, youknow historical work.
It brings together all thesedifferent people,
environmentalists, indigenouspeoples.
It seems to me a galvanizing,has a galvanizing effect on
bringing all kinds of differentacademics together with
indigenous people around a kindof shared concern.
(44:08):
And that's what I think thepower of the of this is really,
and and why, why this is mappingthe doctrine of discovery,
because just all over the place,you know it goes with so many
different areas.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It's a way through it .
I mean an academic, indigenouspeople have held such distrust.
Because anymore, because whenyou incorporate the doctrine of
discovery into interpretingthese ancient texts and primary
(44:54):
sources, you're beginning to seea fault line there that's
cracking open.
So you have to question theexperts.
You had to study to become aknow, a professor, right, and
everybody.
It's all beginning to erode andand it's a good thing because
(45:15):
it has to be reconstructed youdo want people having a critical
mind.
Nobody knows the definitivetruth here of what's been
recorded yeah, and that's.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
That's really one of the things I push with my
students.
I was like Nobody knows thedefinitive truth here, of what's
been recorded that arepresented to you, the history
that's presented to you, andjust stop, take a moment and
really think and come up withyour own questions.
(45:51):
So a lot of times it's like Idon't want to know what this.
I want to know what yourquestions are about the source.
I want to know what it is thatyou know, that you see, that
makes you either say oh, Ididn't know that, or wait a
second timeout.
This sounds wrong.
It's okay for you to say thissounds wrong and ask that
(46:14):
question and like that's thereal key, and it's a hard thing
for students to learn.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
And the relationship becomes more collaborative
between the professor and thestudent.
Yeah, the relationship becomesmore collaborative between the
professor and the student.
Yeah, yes, it's moreregenerative.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
And, and I mean also, we have other texts as well.
We have Womble Belts, forexample, you have, you have the,
you know the Hiawatha belt.
In your article you talk, doyou discuss the founding of the
League and the Confederacy.
But we also have theRemembrance Belt which, for the
Onondaga anyway, details thatrelationship between the
(46:57):
Haudenosaunee and the or sorry,the Onondaga and the Jesuits in
the 17th century.
But as far as I know, nobody'sreally sort of put that down in
a way.
I mean, it's been discussed, buta wampum belt functions
fundamentally differently than atext, you know.
So you know it becomes a muchmore collaborative exercise to
(47:23):
be able to interpret like awampum belt or, uh, you know, to
have these kind ofconversations of what, what
really happened there.
You know have, for example, youknow, oran lions talking about
that remembrance belt and he didit at lemoyne, as I recall, you
know, in a presentation there,talking about the two row,
(47:46):
talking about the, the, you knowthese wampum belts that then
became, you know, it's a kind ofrevelation for people doing
this history, you know, givesthem another angle, you know.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
And really.
And that's one of the things is, I use the wampum belts in
teaching Really, and that's oneof the things I is.
I use the wampum belts inteaching and you know cause?
Most of the students are likeoh, it's just like a game of
telephone or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
No.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
And and they're like well, things, things change.
I was like to try to get themto understand and again, that's
the present nature of history.
It's like there there is anunderstanding, there is, this is
.
This isn't just the documentsthat we look at in the archives,
this is a living piece of ofunderstanding that that goes
(48:37):
beyond, in many respects, how welook at written sources.
So it's, it's really difficultI mean it was difficult for me
to wrap my head around, so it'sreally difficult.
(49:08):
I mean it was difficult for meto wrap my head around and it
can be really challenging forthem, but in the end they at
least understand it to the pointof how these visual elements,
the wampum belts, or if we'relooking at Lakota, winter,
counts, how we understand theseand how they really continue to,
to, to live.
Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it'sone of the big challenges.
And, uh, but students, again, Ilove them when they're really
open, when they're open to, to,to those ideas.
Um, and, and the two row isyeah, once they, once they see
(49:28):
that, and also the.
You said the, the treaty,canandaigua and the Washington
belt there, that that blowstheir minds in ways of like,
wait, you had Washington triedto destroy the Haudenosaunee.
And now there's a treaty.
(49:48):
And how does all this, how doesall this go together?
And I was like and not only isthere this treaty, but every
November 11th, go to Canada, goto.
Canada Again.
It's, it's, it's alive, it is,it is not in the past.
This is a crucial element ofpresent identity as well.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah, it's thrilling, it's really thrilling.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
It's a different way of remembrance, when history is
more factual and there's, likeall these, dates and linear way
of thinking.
But the Haudenosaunee don'tthink that way.
It's not relational.
Sid says you cannot experiencepeace unless you're in proper
relationship with the naturalworld.
(50:35):
This is all about relationships.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
The two row is about relationships, the Canandaigua
Treaty is about relationshipsand when those are a way of
living, you do remember thoserelationships better than you
would remember written factsalso I mean going back to your
article, just, uh, you know alsothose are, they're in the land,
right, all those, all those, um, what remembrances and the
(51:03):
wampum belts are connected tothe lake or to you know these
places, right, and that'sanother way that they remember
you know really literallyputting it together.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
So much is encoded in the natural world.
When this plant goes to seed,or when the fish you know are
jumping in their streams, youknow it all triggers other
events that are going to happen.
It is is, it's all relational.
Speaker 4 (51:28):
It's a different way of relating to the world very,
very much so, whereas thedoctrine of discovery, the
relationship isn't acollaborative one, it is a power
relationship, right yeah which,which just made me think, it
reminded me of a quote fromTheda Perdue, a scholar of
Cherokee history, when shetalked about where the
(51:52):
Christians were kicked out oftheir Garden of Eden.
The Cherokees lived in theirs,this garden, this relationship,
this, you know, that is, is thescene of destruction for
Christianity Judeo-Christian,but for for Cherokees, and we
could, we can apply this, ofcourse, to the Haudenosaunee.
(52:15):
She focused specifically onCherokees, but they, they lived
in in theirs, and it it's, andthat same kind of understanding
of place and relationship, andit's a completely different way
of looking at things which,again, you know, gives us that
(52:38):
opportunity to say there's adifferent way.
It doesn't have to be the exactsame way, but there is a
different way.
History does not have to unfoldin this one linear.
These are what the documentssay, therefore, this is how it's
(52:58):
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Well, that's a wonderful place to conclude our
conversation today.
I want to thank you, Holly, forbeing with us.
This was really delightful.
Long overdue, I would say sothanks very much.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
My pleasure, this was a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lone Colon.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(53:38):
make sure to subscribe.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Philip Arnold, I'm aprofessor in religion and
Native American IndigenousStudies and the founding
director of the Scano Great LawPeace Center at Syracuse
University, and I'm here withI'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of
(00:54):
the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne,and I was on the planning
committee of the Scano Center,the founding committee.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I also am on the board of the Indigenous Values
Initiative and thank you all fortuning in again.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
This podcast is sponsored by Henry Luce
Foundation and today we're veryfortunate to have a friend of
ours, professor Holly Rine, atLe Moyne University and also on
the collaborative of the ScanoGreat Law Peace Center.
Holly has been studying in thearea of the Doctrine of
(01:37):
Discovery and doing historicalwork locally, but I'm going to
have her introduce herself tothe listening public.
Holly welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Thank you very much.
I'm really pleased to be here.
Yes, I am Holly Rine.
I am an associate professor ofhistory at Le Moyne College and,
as Phil said, I'm also on theacademic collaborative of the
Scano Center and I'm justthrilled to be here and have
this conversation.
(02:09):
It's such a great service, Ithink, to so many people who
just aren't as familiar with thedoctrine as they should be.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Exactly where I wanted to start, holly, because
you teach at a Jesuit university, jesuit college.
We're still college for themoment.
You're still a college, butyou're D1, so I don't know.
It confuses me.
But yeah, so you're teaching ata Jesuit college and,
(02:38):
interestingly enough, you knowthere's a lot of Jesuit
institutions that are veryinterested in this legacy of the
doctrine of discovery, perhapsmore than other Catholic
institutions.
That's just my impression fromthe outside, and I know you've
been working on this for a longtime.
But how do you approach it at aJesuit college?
(02:59):
How do you think your studentsreceive this information about
the Doctrine of Discovery?
And I'd be just generallyinterested in your experience.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, I mean it's.
So.
I've been at Le Moyne now thisis my 19th year and I will say
myself I was really quiteunfamiliar with the Doctrine of
Discovery when I came.
Mary MacDonald may she rest inpeace a former religion studies
professor, one of yourcolleagues as well, really
(03:34):
brought me in to this discussion, and so it's been a process for
me as well, and through these19 years, really discovering the
students don't know the historyVery few, and as I learned it,
and at a Jesuit school where wetalk about social justice, it
(03:56):
was like well, this becomes ourduty, our responsibility.
If we are saying we are aJesuit school and we are
following in this history andtradition of social justice,
well, what does that exactlymean before social justice
became a thing?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Right.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
And we have so much at Le Moyne that harkens back to
the relationship with theOnondagas on our our the name
Lemoyne, simon Lemoyne as theJesuit who came to this area,
and you ask a student who SimonLemoyne was and oftentimes well,
(04:38):
he founded the college in 1940,1946.
Well, no, he did not 1946.
Well, no, he did not.
So it really became importantto me and I'm making slow
inroads into having studentsunderstand exactly what, what,
(05:00):
what was happening here.
But I was actually the firstperson they hired to teach
Native American history at allas well, at Le Moyne.
So I said this this, theDoctrine and Discovery, has
become for me more than justthis, is a really interesting
area to teach.
(05:20):
This is a responsibility to say.
If we are parts of a Jesuittradition and part of this
particular history, we need toknow about it.
And the students extremelyreceptive, shocked really, when
(05:41):
we start.
So I've had opportunities.
It's it's not college wide, butyou know, in in my particular
classes we do the, theseprojects and, uh, looking at the
doctrine and looking at thenLemoyne and looking at the
history, how, how the historyhas been told, versus you know
this, this counter narrative and, um, I, I love our students
(06:05):
because they're like, no, weneed to do these projects and
people need to know this, andthey've come up with some really
interesting projects with QRcodes and everything to help
educate their peers.
So I've done a project.
Particularly, we started doinga public history program here at
(06:29):
Le Moyne, so an introduction topublic history.
So I was like, well, here's ourchance.
So we take a look at thedoctrine of discovery and we
take a look at this history andI allow students to come up with
their own projects.
And how do you tell thenincoming students about the
history that they are now a partof?
(06:50):
You know if you're going to sayyou're a Lemoyne Dolphin, you
are a part of this.
And they've done wonderfullyfrom podcasts.
They created their own podcastto, like I said, tours, so you
could take your phone and do theQR codes in order to so they
(07:13):
have.
Those who are have beenintroduced to the doctrine, have
realized their ownresponsibility as a Le Moyne
student.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Well, we live in a very vibrant part of the world.
When the Jesuits came into thisterritory, they recorded the
first histories that werewritten about the Haudenosaunee,
and that's how England learnedabout.
The Haudenosaunee was throughwhat the Jesuits were writing
and publishing all over Europe,and they came into this
(07:43):
continent through the doctrineof discovery to Christianize and
install a patriarchy among amatrilineal culture which
permeated all of the Americas,frankly.
So today we still have theOnondaga Nation organized around
(08:06):
their matrilineal clan system.
Then we have this French fortthat we were trying all of us
were trying to work to repurposeinto the telling of this
history people know nothingabout, as you indicated at the
beginning of this podcast, andso it was quite a venture,
because we had great opposition,and a lot of it was coming from
(08:29):
Le Moyne in the beginning.
They did not want usrepurposing the French fort and
telling a different perspectiveof what actually happened in
Haudenosaunee territory.
So you were part of thiscollaborative as well, but you
were right in the thick of it inLemoyne.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I have to say that you were kind of fearless,
pushing back against some of theJesuits in your college, you
know, insisting that they listen, rather than you know sort of
preach um some colleagues inyour own department.
So I mean I it was, that was.
(09:10):
I think that was really alesson for us to see you, to see
you take on your owninstitution Brave yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
And again, it was.
You know, I, I, I look at, uh,at Daniel Berrigan.
You know, one of the kind ofthe Jesuit many people are
familiar with, big socialactivist, and one of his
statements was you know, knowwhere you stand and stand there.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
You know.
So it's, it's and it's beenreally eye opening with these
conversations.
I think, as people come around,been really eye-opening with
these conversations.
I think as people come aroundit's slow, but one of the
Ignatian principles of educationis through Ignatian principles
(09:57):
of conversation, which is totruly sit and listen and in many
respects, right.
It goes back to Haudenosauneeideas of how you come to a
decision.
Unfortunately, in the modernworld, many in the Jesuit fold
you know it's well.
No, we have decisions to makeand you know we've got, we've
got to move forward.
So adopting that has been, Ithink, very beneficial,
(10:20):
primarily for the students yousaid you know I'm not going to
fight fights necessarily.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You've got to pick them.
Well, there's a reason.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
The first peace council, the first peace
movement in the United Statesoccurred in Syracuse right and
the Berrigans were very much apart of that movement.
But it's also the heart ofHaudenosaunee territory, the
heart of the Confederacy andspreading the great, binding
(10:50):
peace around the world.
So they were definitelyinfluenced by all of that.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Oh, yes, and when students are introduced to that
concept as well.
So it's like you know, yes, wehave American democracy because,
yes, I just finished teaching aclass in the American
Revolution.
But as I come back for myNative American history class,
where we're going to go deeperinto really, when we look at
representative government, whenwe look at true ideals of
(11:20):
democracy, you look at the greatlaw of peace and it was done
earlier and, in my perspective,with the voices of women and
really kind of looking at thisidea of consensus building
better.
It was done better and it's asI students have been been, you
(11:45):
know, quite responsible when youstart really looking at the
evidence.
And, sandy, I mean you talkedabout the Jesuit relations and
and I mean those are the sourceswe have right For historians.
We need the Jesuit relations,those are the sources we have
Right, and one of the biggestchallenges is teaching students
how to read those sources isteaching students how to read
those sources?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, mother's Fathers.
I wanted to ask about thatbecause that goes right to the
heart of doing history.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yes, right, and you can't have history without the
written sources, but we doexercises.
If we look at these sources,the Jesuit relations, without
any kind of critical eye, oh my,there's a history we cannot
tell and unfortunately that hashappened.
(12:32):
It's like, well, here's thewritten sources and we're going
to take that as gospel truthwith the Jesuits gospel truth.
But once again, once we startthinking about and students
pushing, I'm like why were theywritten?
Who were they written for?
What was, what was the purposeand what is it now that we can
(12:57):
see in these relations?
So, you know, when they talkabout Lemoyne and his speech,
you know, when they talk aboutLemoyne and his speech, um, when
he, when he shows up atOnondaga and he, oh, that, that
story of him, you know, you justkind of see him walking around
and you know pronouncing in thisgreat performance and according
to him, all the Onondagas werejust applauding and this is this
(13:19):
is, oh, this is beautiful.
This is wonderful.
Can we get enough and to reallystart saying, ok, well, here's
events that are happening in theworld.
Why might, even if we do haveOnondaga approval of some of
(13:40):
these statements what might begoing on here?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Are they?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
really like oh, please, come and build your
chapels.
And once you really startthinking critically, knowing
more of the context and knowingabout the great law of peace and
understanding, then thedoctrine of discovery and how
these, these ideas kind of cometo to take over students get it
(14:12):
yeah, they sure do they get it?
Um, but it is a process, I mean, and that speech that lemoyne
gave, and I crack up too becausebecause we do have Simon's Pub
on campus and we have?
we have.
It's a picture paintingsupposed to be, of Simon Lemoyne
, and I just I just cry becauseit kind of looks like the
Marlboro man and I was likewe're still kind of promoting
(14:35):
this, this, this idea, thisversion of you know, the, the,
the vitality and the oh, such acharismatic figure and you know
he may have been, but thesewords are.
We need them, those are oursources, but we need to be
careful, careful, careful withhow we take a look at them.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, yeah, they have definite agenda in publishing
those yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
So they can continue to be funded by the European
monarchs to penetrate this land.
And there was only.
It's not like.
This was the first time theOnondaga met the Jesuits they
were aware.
They were north of the StLawrence, penetrating the Wendat
(15:25):
, and they were chaining womenin the forest until they would
accept to take vows ofChristianity and be subservient
to their husbands.
It was so brutal those first 30years the Jesuits were up there
.
Don't think for a momentOnondaga didn't already know
about this.
Oh yeah.
(15:46):
So when the French fortnarrative that had been teaching
this community about thesefirst relations were about the
Onondaga asking them to pleasecome and Christianize us, you
can see it was pure propaganda.
Oh, the spirit in which thoseJesuit relations were written.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
But you know, there are little nuggets of Because we
have other evidence.
Of course you know we have theevidence of the land grant
Arriving with yeah arriving withthis land grant.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
A deed essentially to 600 square miles of land, which
isn't in the relations, ofcourse, but that's another piece
of evidence of really thedoctrine of discovery.
So those you know, just a fewyears after Lemoyne they're
coming up and setting up shop,knowing that they're taking and
(16:43):
appropriating land.
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So so there, you know the, the flourishes of speeches
, and you know all the good, thegood deeds that are presented
in the, in the relations, arenot always backed up by the,
even the written evidence, youknow.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Well, the relations are talking about this culture
that live in peace and theynever scold their children or
hit them.
The men respect the women, thewomen respect the men.
They have plentiful gardens offood and crops and these
heathens need to understand thepower of God and that they sin.
(17:26):
These people are sinners butthey don't have even have a
concept of sin, I mean those areall negatives.
This is all written.
Those are all the negatives ofthe relationship.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
And it's just because I think people then, you know,
become more open to these ideas.
I think once what happened atgeorgetown university yeah the,
the selling of slaves.
So they had this enslavedpopulation.
Students were just like what?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
yeah what?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
what do you mean?
That can't have been socialjustice.
It's like social justice is isnew right I'm like you know, but
as like, let's we take a littlebit closer, look at what the
Jesuits again we're asking.
It's like okay, it's okay tosell these enslaved people to
(18:16):
Louisiana parish plantations, aslong as they continue to get
their catechism.
Yeah, right as long as theCatholic education and that
they're, they're the sacramentsare available to them and
they're, they're going to haveCatholic instruction, right.
And I was like so that the goalwasn't social justice here on
earth.
The goal is, yeah, we're goingto, we're going to convert you
(18:39):
and you're going to have thiswonderful experience in an
afterworld you don't necessarilybelieve in or want you know.
So I was like we have to kindof take a look just because,
just because we talk aboutsocial justice now doesn't mean
we talked about that then.
So watching Georgetown reallykind of deal with that.
(19:01):
Yeah really kind of deal withthat, yeah.
And then when we take a lookand we see more colleges and
universities focusing on theirhistory with indigenous peoples
as well, you know, students werelike, okay, yeah, we are a part
of something bigger here aswell.
That that which is always atrick getting students at Le
(19:25):
Moyne to understand that historydidn't just happen elsewhere.
History happened here.
Very significant things happenhere that are very much
connected.
So just because it happenedhere doesn't mean it's
insignificant.
It happened here and it'sreally a crucial part of a
larger picture and we're notseparate from it.
(19:48):
So we talk about, really, youknow, indigenous ideas of
history are much more relevantright.
They're part of today as opposedto, I think you know.
So many of you know again,history happened over there, or
some other time, some otherplace, and I was like no, now.
(20:11):
Now you are a part of thisstory.
What do you do with this story?
What is your role?
You're a part of it now, you'renot just studying it.
You are a part.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
And it's not like it was just in the past.
Right, it's relevant, yeah,right.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
But you talk about social justice.
Well, I said, when the Jesuitsfirst came into Wendat territory
, they claimed theyChristianized the whole nation
within 30 years.
And yet there were oratorsgoing to Europe critiquing the
greatest thinkers in Europe atthe time who professed to be
(20:50):
practicing equality and socialjustice and all the things
you're talking about.
But they're saying you're onlyequal and just under the rule of
your monarch.
And we're kind of being fedthese same narratives today.
That's what Putin's, you know,telling his people you're all
free and equal.
Seriously, and we're kind ofshifting in that direction
(21:14):
ourselves in this country.
So you know, you've got to bemade aware of the seriousness of
these discussions.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And they haven't gone away.
The past is not past, it'spresent and part of our future.
I think I mean this is fromAdam, our producer, Because he
asks what does the Catholictheology of the priests who
think conversion and Catholicpractice of the enslaved folks
(21:47):
was doing for them, for thepriests or for the church?
I think it's a good question,given your comments on
Georgetown, for example.
On Georgetown, for example, Imean, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
What does the catechism have to do with
holding these people in bondage?
How does that liberate them?
It's yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean so.
Yeah, I mean the idea of youknow being held in bondage on
earth.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
That's fine and really one of the goals of the
Jesuits in the 18th century.
Right martyrdom, everybody waslooking for suffering on earth
for the greater good of thegreater glory of God.
So, again, social justicedoesn't fit into that, because
(22:43):
it's better for you to die, it'sbetter for you to be, it's okay
for you to be held in bondageas long as you are, you know,
maintaining Catholic practiceand maintaining the sacraments,
and you know, and the priestsare the ones responsible for
(23:04):
making sure that that happensright.
So duty done.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
do you want to learn more aboutthe resources mentioned?
If so, please check our websiteat
podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorgfor more information and, if you
like this episode, review it onApple, spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
You were present at our conversations with David
McCollum, Father McCollum at LeMoyne, and we were at it for
three years or more, I think,with the Onondaga there at Le
Moyne, and we were at it forthree years or more, I think,
with the Onondaga there at LeMoyne, and I remember one
exchange where we were talkingabout the martyrs actually, and
(23:53):
their names on your dorms, Ithink, and I think it was Jake
Edwards asked well, what is amartyr?
And they explained somebody wasspreading the gospel among
non-Christian people, you know,among Native people.
I don't think they use the wordheathen to be, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
No no.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
But then Jake said, oh you, you mean invaders, which
completely flips the script,you know.
I mean it's just.
It was just a kind of.
It was a revelation to me, youknow, because and I'm not, I'm
not catholic, of course, and Ibut you know but martyrs only
operate in a certain kind ofworldview, in a framework right
and maybe a, maybe a historicalone, you know, but you know, to
(24:46):
me that was a kind of revelation.
It sort of quieted the room fora while, I think.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Yes, yes, yes, it did .
And I mean I just also remember, I believe, at one point I'm
not sure if it was David orsomeone, but just saying that
they were looking forreconciliation at this point.
And was it Jake?
It was like no, not now, not inour lifetimes, not going to
(25:12):
happen.
It may have, even it may havebeen Oren I'm not, I don't, but
I remember.
I remember that exchangeextremely well and I talk about
that with my students as well.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
This is, this is something that is not.
It's not like okay, you know,all right, yeah, we get you, you
know great.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I understand now yeah .
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Let's move on, and, and, and, and.
That really hits home for themthat they are part of this.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
All right.
Maybe we can talk aboutreconciliation when we can dip a
cup in any stream and drinkfreely from it without being
poisoned.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Right, and that gets to your.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Begin the conversation about
reconciliation.
There need to be changes rightbefore we can arrive at that
sort of conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
As Adam also interjects, Oren says there can
be no reconciliation when thereis no point to which one can be
conciled which to which one canbe conciled a strange word, but
you know you can't be reconcileduntil you can be conciled.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
And to jump in there right, what oran is pointing out
right is the wordreconciliation is a return to
when things were going good,when there was a good time.
When spouses reconcile, it'srecognizing the good times.
Yeah, where in the 500 years ofhistory is the good times?
Where is that point to whichone can be conciled, right?
(26:49):
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Sandy's point gets us kind of to this article.
You wrote, maybe, the titlepage, yes, onondaga Lake, sacred
Space, contested Space, andit's a remarkable piece and I
think what you're trying to do.
(27:14):
You can tell us what you'retrying to do, but from my point
of view you're trying tolocalize history, you're trying
to give it some local importance, but also thinking about the
environmental impacts and otherkinds of impacts that history
can tell a story or weave astory of a place and it's
(27:41):
difficult past in a way thathelps us revisit where we are
right.
But you tell us what you wantedto accomplish with this piece.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Yeah, there's a few things I'm really again focusing
on local that, yes, you know, Iwant us to take a look at this,
this, this bit of local history.
And when we look at onondagalake, right, the story of it is
primarily the modern story of,of the pollution it's like.
(28:14):
Well, there's more to it aswell, and if we want to look, we
want to get to the point of, assandy said, you know, it'd be
great if we could actually, youknow, dip our cups.
It'd be great if you could dipyour toe in there.
I mean at this point in time,right, that this, it didn't have
(28:35):
to be this way.
To be this way and this is whatI try to tell students with
history all the time it wasn'tjust a set of things that have
to unfold in a particular way.
We make choices, choices weremade that got us to this point.
But if you look at thatoriginal history of the lake,
the sacred nature of thisparticular place and we as
(29:01):
Americans talk about theimportance of sacred places and
I talk about that in in thearticle as well I, joe Biden,
talked about on January 6th withthe, with the attacks on the
Capitol, that a sacred place ofgovernment, of, of founding was,
was attacked.
It's like, well, that happenedhere, that happened at Onondaga
(29:23):
Lake.
We don't recognize that, but itdid.
Maybe, if we can recognize this, at one point this gets to the
conciled part.
Maybe we can look at that bitof history and say there is
another way, there is anotherapproach, and this approach may
(29:48):
take another 400 years.
But, it is something that we canreally take a look at and think
about.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think the you know, the value of, from our point of
view, is the value of the 250celebration next year is that we
can really reassess wheredemocracy has been inspired.
And maybe you know, think about.
You know it's always a standardpractice of the Haudenosaunee
(30:24):
to include other non-humanbeings in their democratic
processes, right?
So this radical democraticprocess does have the water in
it.
It does have animals and treesand the land and things like
that, which is something that,of course, our founding fathers
completely neglected.
You know the role of thenon-human persons and more than
(30:50):
human, and of course women andothers, you know, but it's not
finished.
I guess is what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
It's not finished, right, I mean.
So we've made choices, we cancontinue to make choices and we
have other models to look at,especially, as you said, right,
this time there's a lot of justfinish the American Revolution
course and one of the things wewere talking about is the future
of the American Revolution.
What, what does this look like?
(31:23):
And, you know, students werereally, really thoughtful about,
really, the challenges thatwe're facing at this point in
time, backsliding and goingright back into deregulation and
what can happen to theenvironment, and it's like, okay
(31:49):
, we're at this pivot pointagain of where are we heading?
And now we're in this time ofsocial justice where we had the
late Pope actually wrote anencyclical dealing with the
environment, right, so we'veswitched these ideas of of what
(32:09):
land and water and, you know,the non-human animals, their
value no longer necessarily justeconomic, to to, you know,
subdue the earth, and you know,but now, oh wait, we live
amongst, we are part, we areresponsible again, right.
(32:33):
So I think we are at that moment, and at a, at a Jesuit
institution, I think, of saying,okay, we can switch this view
and we can look back on thatdoctrine of discovery, we can
look back at that great law ofpeace and that kind of that
clash really right, you had twocompletely different worldviews.
(32:54):
Here we are at a moment.
We can make a decision.
We can make a decision.
What will those decisions be?
Kind of moving forward as welook to the history that has
informed us and informed thisarea, whether we look at
Onondaga Lake, whether we lookat the Sullivan Clinton
campaigns during the AmericanRevolution which again comes as
(33:18):
a shock to a lot of students, Mm, hmm.
They don't know it.
You know that George Washingtonordered this attack into the
area, that really the goal was,of course, to eliminate the
Haudenosaunee and to take thatland and those resources.
(33:39):
It's like, okay, we're at amoment, what do we do with that?
And I think it's a really bothexciting and fearful time.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, both are at play.
It is fearful and it isexciting.
And you know you talk about.
You know, on Doggle Lake, let'stalk about the erie canal.
You know, our first encounterwhere we're going to share in
the river of life, the, the tworow wampum, the hood and shoney
present to the dutch.
(34:14):
We're going to share in theriver of life down parallel
paths and not interfere with oneanother.
Well, you have to firstdetermine your perspective of
life.
Is it about your relationshipwith the natural world?
Does the Haudenosaunee see it?
Or is this life the spirit ofan economic growth right through
(34:34):
a New York state, with what wasto follow, and that's the Erie
Canal?
It's an artificial waterway.
We're hearing talk right nowabout micron associating with
being the present day Erie Canalof New York State and that's a
flag.
(34:55):
That is terrifying, knowingwhat the Erie Canal did to the
Haudenosaunee throughout thisland, disrupting this whole
ecological system, throughoutthis land, disrupting this whole
ecological system, and withMicron and terror, we're right
at that moment.
You're right.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And with Micron.
And again, why are they lookinghere?
It's water resources.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Water.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
And that's a fun thing with students as well.
It's like we don't understand,like the crucial nature of water
, because we have so much of ithere right, right.
I mean half the time I moved tosyracuse and there's a hole in
my basement.
I was like why is there a holein the floor of my basement?
I've never seen that beforeright and they're like oh that
then, syracuse.
(35:40):
That's the difference betweenhaving a basement or an or or or
a pool or a lake yes, yes inyour house.
So that role of water, whichagain I mean so the past week it
hasn't stopped right In so muchof the world that is such a
(36:00):
focal point where it's not herein the same way, right, but
Micron is here because of thewater.
What is that going to do aswell?
So, yeah, sandy, that wholeidea of the Erie Canal, yes,
this is going to be a neweconomic revolution for this
area.
They're here because of thewater resources.
(36:23):
The Jesuits were reallyinterested in the salt.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
You know how do we talk about sacred space?
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And here we go again.
What choices, you know.
And even with the aquariumwhich is just continues to.
You know, I was like we'regoing to build an aquarium it's
like what to show what the fishwho should have been living in
the in the lake look like youknow, this is you know what?
What are the choices that that,that we make?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
No, I mean, I think what you've done in this article
is is set up.
You know our thinking about thelong duration, right?
You know the long duration ofof Onondaga Lake.
You know our thinking about thelong duration, right, you know
the long duration of OnondagaLake.
You know from what we callprehistory, although it's just
history.
I mean it's just history, Imean because the Onondaga are
(37:18):
there and they're telling usabout this history.
And that's what we were tryingto do at the Scano Center is
trying to give people a sense ofvalues before we can, you know,
so that it can set up aconversation right, set up our
students to think about what,what, what will be our future
(37:39):
and to leave with a critical eyeyeah about what's happening
around them yes
Speaker 4 (37:44):
and yes, I mean that is so from you know how do we
read the sources, what you know,everything.
Yes, you have to, you have toask those questions and you have
to be open minded.
Like I said, when I got here in2006, you know, I wasn't that
familiar with the doctrine ofdiscovery and it was me sitting
(38:07):
and listening, just shutting mymouth, and in conversation with
the Onondagas, I took thatJesuit principle of listen,
don't come to conclusions untilyou listen and learn.
And I listened and I I think Ilearned quite a bit and it's
(38:30):
it's gotten me to Right, andthis was after my PhD.
Right, I got my PhD.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I know it all.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
God, no, and that's that's another thing I hope my
students really get out of.
That is that you know this.
This is a continuing mystudents really get out of that
is that you know this, this is acontinuing.
I'm going to teach you thingsthat are going to be challenged
and should be challenged.
And you don't just sit thereand say well, Dr Ryan said that,
therefore, it's true.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
No, they don't do that anymore.
They don't take it.
They don't take what you say asgospel At.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
LeMoyne, they still kind of do.
I told them I was going tostart lying one day, just to see
what happens.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, just use the strategy of the Jesuits 17th
century, jeff.
But you know, I mean, of course, I mean I was always interested
and I have a similar kind ofhistory to yours in that, you
know, I really started learningabout the doctrine of discovery
in the early 2000s we'll sayaround 2004 or 2005, when we
(39:30):
started to get to know SteveNewcomb, for example, and his
work.
But of course I was alwaysinterested.
If you're teaching NativeAmerica, you're always aware of
the contact situation, right,always aware of the contact
situation, right.
It might be manifest destiny,it might be just outright
(39:50):
colonialism or conquest or theIndian Wars or whatever you're.
You know wherever you are inthat kind of history.
But you know the doctrine ofdiscovery, I guess maybe as a
category sort of encapsulatesthat whole kind of mass of myth,
(40:11):
that kind of myth, mythologythat has driven the American
culture so much.
But I mean, that's the way Ithink about it.
You know that I've always kindof been working on it.
You know that I've always kindof been working on it.
But then you know this, thisidea of the doctrine of
discovery and the specificity ofthe documents, you know, coming
(40:33):
from the 15th century orearlier, just that kind of
galvanizes everything.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Yes, and and to look at really how that that
continues then right Through.
That continues then rightthrough through areas that that
students are more familiar with,like Cherokee removal and
removal period and the courtcases that that students are
(41:00):
vaguely familiar, this, thiskind of happened, you know.
But to really look into thatidea of the legal march here,
right, so we talk about theUnited States for a country of
laws.
Well, where do these laws then,you know, come from?
And this was one part of mylearning process.
(41:22):
So, yeah, I knew Johnson vMcIntosh, I knew about all of
these things.
I'm like, oh wait, I knew, Iknew Johnson v McIntosh, I knew
about all of these things.
I'm like, oh wait, this is acontinuation of that doctrine.
Then that that that legal rightI win because I it's, it's the
law I win because it's the legaldocument that says I own this
(41:42):
land.
And to say that in US law thatcame from canon law, that came
from the Pope, which at the timewas the law right and how it
moves into US law.
So we really view that all theway up to, of course, the Cheryl
(42:06):
case, the Cheryl Oneida case,and students are blown away when
they read.
They not only read that, butthat, that footnote, and talking
about basically that theOneidas, it's it's too late for
them to claim the land, and it'skind of.
I wish I had the quote in frontof me.
But what's that Latches?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
right.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
That this is basically part of how it's been
done.
This is the law, this is thedoctrine of discovery.
And then students realize thatwas Ruth Bader Ginsburg who
wrote it and they're like what?
Right who wrote it and they'relike what, what, what?
No, it's like.
This becomes that crucialelement, then, of that legal
(42:54):
nature which then gets us backto the great law of peace Right.
Which doesn't necessarily berecognized as law.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I mean Adam has it here.
Doctrine of discovery I meanAdam has it here Doctrine of
Discovery, fee titled to thelands occupied by Indians when
the colonists arrived, becamevested in the sovereign, first
the discovering European nationand later the original states
and then the United States.
That's Ruth Bader Ginsburgfirst footnote.
(43:24):
So yeah, I mean, and for me, inreligion, right, I mean
religion we talk about sacredplaces all the time.
We, you know, we talk about allof these theological elements,
but the doctrine of discoverybrings together religion and law
with.
(43:45):
You know textual exegesis, youknow historical work.
It brings together all thesedifferent people,
environmentalists, indigenouspeoples.
It seems to me a galvanizing,has a galvanizing effect on
bringing all kinds of differentacademics together with
indigenous people around a kindof shared concern.
(44:08):
And that's what I think thepower of the of this is really,
and and why, why this is mappingthe doctrine of discovery,
because just all over the place,you know it goes with so many
different areas.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It's a way through it .
I mean an academic, indigenouspeople have held such distrust.
Because anymore, because whenyou incorporate the doctrine of
discovery into interpretingthese ancient texts and primary
(44:54):
sources, you're beginning to seea fault line there that's
cracking open.
So you have to question theexperts.
You had to study to become aknow, a professor, right, and
everybody.
It's all beginning to erode andand it's a good thing because
(45:15):
it has to be reconstructed youdo want people having a critical
mind.
Nobody knows the definitivetruth here of what's been
recorded yeah, and that's.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
That's really one of the things I push with my
students.
I was like Nobody knows thedefinitive truth here, of what's
been recorded that arepresented to you, the history
that's presented to you, andjust stop, take a moment and
really think and come up withyour own questions.
(45:51):
So a lot of times it's like Idon't want to know what this.
I want to know what yourquestions are about the source.
I want to know what it is thatyou know, that you see, that
makes you either say oh, Ididn't know that, or wait a
second timeout.
This sounds wrong.
It's okay for you to say thissounds wrong and ask that
(46:14):
question and like that's thereal key, and it's a hard thing
for students to learn.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
And the relationship becomes more collaborative
between the professor and thestudent.
Yeah, the relationship becomesmore collaborative between the
professor and the student.
Yeah, yes, it's moreregenerative.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
And, and I mean also, we have other texts as well.
We have Womble Belts, forexample, you have, you have the,
you know the Hiawatha belt.
In your article you talk, doyou discuss the founding of the
League and the Confederacy.
But we also have theRemembrance Belt which, for the
Onondaga anyway, details thatrelationship between the
(46:57):
Haudenosaunee and the or sorry,the Onondaga and the Jesuits in
the 17th century.
But as far as I know, nobody'sreally sort of put that down in
a way.
I mean, it's been discussed, buta wampum belt functions
fundamentally differently than atext, you know.
So you know it becomes a muchmore collaborative exercise to
(47:23):
be able to interpret like awampum belt or, uh, you know, to
have these kind ofconversations of what, what
really happened there.
You know have, for example, youknow, oran lions talking about
that remembrance belt and he didit at lemoyne, as I recall, you
know, in a presentation there,talking about the two row,
(47:46):
talking about the, the, you knowthese wampum belts that then
became, you know, it's a kind ofrevelation for people doing
this history, you know, givesthem another angle, you know.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
And really.
And that's one of the things is, I use the wampum belts in
teaching Really, and that's oneof the things I is.
I use the wampum belts inteaching and you know cause?
Most of the students are likeoh, it's just like a game of
telephone or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
No.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
And and they're like well, things, things change.
I was like to try to get themto understand and again, that's
the present nature of history.
It's like there there is anunderstanding, there is, this is
.
This isn't just the documentsthat we look at in the archives,
this is a living piece of ofunderstanding that that goes
(48:37):
beyond, in many respects, how welook at written sources.
So it's, it's really difficultI mean it was difficult for me
to wrap my head around, so it'sreally difficult.
(49:08):
I mean it was difficult for meto wrap my head around and it
can be really challenging forthem, but in the end they at
least understand it to the pointof how these visual elements,
the wampum belts, or if we'relooking at Lakota, winter,
counts, how we understand theseand how they really continue to,
to, to live.
Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it'sone of the big challenges.
And, uh, but students, again, Ilove them when they're really
open, when they're open to, to,to those ideas.
Um, and, and the two row isyeah, once they, once they see
(49:28):
that, and also the.
You said the, the treaty,canandaigua and the Washington
belt there, that that blowstheir minds in ways of like,
wait, you had Washington triedto destroy the Haudenosaunee.
And now there's a treaty.
(49:48):
And how does all this, how doesall this go together?
And I was like and not only isthere this treaty, but every
November 11th, go to Canada, goto.
Canada Again.
It's, it's, it's alive, it is,it is not in the past.
This is a crucial element ofpresent identity as well.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah, it's thrilling, it's really thrilling.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
It's a different way of remembrance, when history is
more factual and there's, likeall these, dates and linear way
of thinking.
But the Haudenosaunee don'tthink that way.
It's not relational.
Sid says you cannot experiencepeace unless you're in proper
relationship with the naturalworld.
(50:35):
This is all about relationships.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
The two row is about relationships, the Canandaigua
Treaty is about relationshipsand when those are a way of
living, you do remember thoserelationships better than you
would remember written factsalso I mean going back to your
article, just, uh, you know alsothose are, they're in the land,
right, all those, all those, um, what remembrances and the
(51:03):
wampum belts are connected tothe lake or to you know these
places, right, and that'sanother way that they remember
you know really literallyputting it together.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
So much is encoded in the natural world.
When this plant goes to seed,or when the fish you know are
jumping in their streams, youknow it all triggers other
events that are going to happen.
It is is, it's all relational.
Speaker 4 (51:28):
It's a different way of relating to the world very,
very much so, whereas thedoctrine of discovery, the
relationship isn't acollaborative one, it is a power
relationship, right yeah which,which just made me think, it
reminded me of a quote fromTheda Perdue, a scholar of
Cherokee history, when shetalked about where the
(51:52):
Christians were kicked out oftheir Garden of Eden.
The Cherokees lived in theirs,this garden, this relationship,
this, you know, that is, is thescene of destruction for
Christianity Judeo-Christian,but for for Cherokees, and we
could, we can apply this, ofcourse, to the Haudenosaunee.
(52:15):
She focused specifically onCherokees, but they, they lived
in in theirs, and it it's, andthat same kind of understanding
of place and relationship, andit's a completely different way
of looking at things which,again, you know, gives us that
(52:38):
opportunity to say there's adifferent way.
It doesn't have to be the exactsame way, but there is a
different way.
History does not have to unfoldin this one linear.
These are what the documentssay, therefore, this is how it's
(52:58):
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Well, that's a wonderful place to conclude our
conversation today.
I want to thank you, Holly, forbeing with us.
This was really delightful.
Long overdue, I would say sothanks very much.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
My pleasure, this was a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lone Colon.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(53:38):
make sure to subscribe.
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