May 6, 2025 • 27 mins
Xavier Egan, CEO of PolicySage, revolutionizes policy analysis by transforming the overwhelming task of tracking legislation into a streamlined, AI-powered process. His innovative platform converts what traditionally takes analysts 40-60 hours into minutes, enabling organizations to better understand and respond to the 150,000-200,000 bills proposed across the country each legislative session.
• PolicySage originated from observing community organizations struggling with manual legislation tracking
• The scale of legislation is overwhelming – 10,000 policies and 47,000 pages in the current Texas session alone
• Traditional policy analysis requires 40-60 hours per bill, making comprehensive coverage impossible
• AI technology connects users directly to source materials while dramatically reducing analysis time
• The platform serves Fortune 1000 companies, government contractors, investors, and advocacy groups
• PolicySage empowers smaller organizations and nonprofits by democratizing access to policy intelligence
• The company recently onboarded one of the top 10 counties in the country as a customer
• Partnerships and community connections are crucial for business success and innovation
Check out our website at www.policy-sage.com to learn more about how PolicySage can help your organization stay ahead of regulatory changes.
xavier@policy-sage.com
Link to Xavier's Linkedin>>>>click here<<<<<
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Episode Transcript
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Storie (00:17):
Welcome back to Market it With Atma, where we share the
tips, tools and strategies tohelp your business be successful
.
Tools and strategies to helpyour business be successful.
I'm your host Story and todaywe have on the show CEO of
PolicySage, mr Xavier Egan.
Welcome, xavier.
Xavier (00:32):
Well, thank you for having me.
Storie (00:33):
Thank you for coming.
This podcast I'm excited aboutbecause I am not familiar with
what you do, and that's rare.
Xavier (00:40):
Well, there we go.
I'm here to illuminate.
Storie (00:43):
Thank you.
So first tell me, I guess notso much about PolicySage, but
what navigated you in thedirection to create PolicySage,
and then you can tell me moreabout it if you like.
Xavier (00:54):
Sure, so this was really something that came from the
community.
We have an office here inArlington, Texas, the dream city
right Of course so.
I participate locally in thecommunity in a lot of different
ways, and we were talking oneday about Bill Watch and I never
(01:15):
heard about that right, I wasjust making a light joke, you
know?
Hey, I'm leading the committee.
That sounds like a boringchannel, right?
Storie (01:23):
To be honest, right Transparency is the best policy.
Xavier (01:26):
That's what I thought.
Storie (01:27):
So we kind of laughed about it.
Xavier (01:28):
They're like no, it's not a TV channel, it's what we
do to try to advocate for ourorganization Interesting, and
that's what I said.
Storie (01:36):
Tell me more, right.
Xavier (01:38):
So, okay, they say, well , we go to the legislator site
and we search for different keywords that are important to us,
you know, women, men, children,substance, education, whatever
it is, and we use their systemto pull back whatever
legislative policy might beimportant to us.
Right?
Storie (01:58):
Within those key words.
Within those key words, Igotcha Right OK.
Xavier (02:01):
And then what next?
I say?
They say, well, we pull it down, take the PDF, we attach it to
Excel file, we try to read itbest we can and try to translate
what we think it means todecide if we should advocate or
not.
Storie (02:16):
Ooh.
And I said oh, that leaves alot of room for error.
Xavier (02:19):
it seems like yes yes, and not to say people aren't the
best and worst thing about life, but, geez, they are the best
and worst thing.
Storie (02:27):
No one's perfect right, that's right.
Xavier (02:29):
So there's a lot of subjectivity there.
Storie (02:31):
Interpretation.
Xavier (02:33):
Interpretation, lost art of language, all sorts of
things that can happen.
Storie (02:37):
And.
Xavier (02:38):
I'm like, ok, well, naturally you got the same
things that I thought and then Isaid, well, let's just talk
about maybe this isn't a bigdeal.
What's the volume that youusually deal in?
Right and they're like well,how many I'm trying to track
myself.
I'm like yeah.
In that Excel file.
What are you looking at?
Maybe a couple hundred.
I'm like ugh.
Storie (02:58):
Wow, a couple hundred.
What?
Xavier (03:00):
exactly A couple hundred bills and policies that are
deployed in that statelegislator.
Oh, my goodness that they'retrying to figure out and I said,
oh well, that already seemedlike a lot.
Well, how many are you totallyfacing?
Storie (03:13):
Right.
Xavier (03:13):
And that's when the wow moment happened.
They said well, you know, inTexas alone maybe in a natural
legislator we're seeing about8,000 proposed bills.
I said oh, oh my.
And I looked and researchedmyself and across the country
there's about 150,000 to 200,000proposed bills and laws in
(03:37):
every legislative session.
Storie (03:40):
Oh, my goodness, how do you have the time or capacity to
go through each and every oneaccurately?
Xavier (03:46):
Exactly, and if you really wanted to know if you
were looking out for your houseor your business or any type of
interest, right, you wouldimagine you got to read it all.
Storie (03:58):
I would.
I mean, I'm a term andconditions girl.
I will read every line, right.
Xavier (04:02):
Right now in just Texasxas and our legislators
getting the closeout phase right.
There's over 10 000 policiesthey proposed this session and
about 47 000 pages.
Last time I checked well theaverage reading pace and they
say we aren't average anymore.
Uh, it would take them about 12, 13 weeks just to consume that
(04:27):
information.
Storie (04:28):
Not even absorb it, just to read it.
Xavier (04:30):
That's it, not to comprehend it.
Storie (04:31):
Right, right, that's just consuming.
Xavier (04:33):
I read it and we all know, the first time you read
something, you never geteverything that you're looking
for.
Storie (04:38):
Absolutely not.
Xavier (04:38):
You've got to go back and pen it again and again and
put your finger on it.
That day I probably didn'tabsorb anything, right you were
hungry or hangry, you might nothave caught anything that is
very real, very true imagineit's 47 000 pages.
Well, let's talk even crazieracross the states, all states
and the federal level.
(04:59):
That 150 to 200 000000 convertsinto 100 million pages.
Storie (05:05):
No, you'd have to have a team of people just reading
constantly.
But then therein lies anotherproblem.
Xavier (05:11):
That's right.
You'd open it to interpretationagain.
Well, and not just that, itturns out, there's even more
problems to really solve.
Storie (05:17):
Well, I mean, we're talking about legislation here.
Xavier (05:19):
Now you get the point here, and this was all
illuminating for me.
It wasn't that this was mybackground as much as just being
a normal citizen trying tounderstand how can I help myself
or help others.
And the short windows is yournext issue.
So in the traditionallegislature, say in Texas, it's
maybe 140, 160 days, not a fullyear.
(05:42):
You don't even have a full yearto understand what's happening.
That's not even half a year.
Okay, in the shortestlegislator it might be two weeks
session.
in their shortest specialsession they can provide in a
different state right and then,maybe two to three months right
is a more average small sessionthat they have to get every bill
(06:04):
, every law in every sectorcovered for your state.
And then you imagine at thefederal level they're doing this
across all 50 states, affectingeverybody, not just in our
local area so you're a problemsolver.
You saw a problem now you seewhere I'm at and you're trying
to solve it.
I just saw a problem.
Now you see where I'm at andyou're trying to solve it.
(06:25):
I just solve a problem.
Storie (06:25):
Walking around here, solving everybody's problem.
Xavier (06:27):
That's it.
I was just walking down thestreet one day and I stumbled
into a pothole.
Storie (06:31):
But you know what?
That's life, right?
Either you have a passion andyou focus on it or you move on
with the rest and you'reactually trying to make some
change here, right?
That's right, okay.
So how did Policy Sage and thename actually come to life?
Xavier (06:46):
Yes.
So the idea of you know, andlegislation is a thick and long
term right, it's already complexin nature so we didn't want to
use that word.
Policy kind of covers a morebroad variety, and the reason
that was important to us isbecause you might think of
policy in a variety of ways.
You know, inside of anorganization is one way, but
(07:09):
then when you think aboutexternal policy, it might be
code or ordinance right, or itcould be county level.
City level, it could be stateright, or it could be county
level.
City level, it could be statelevel, it could be federal level
.
Yes, so many different ways.
It could be your local schoolboard that you're concerned
about it could be youruniversity and the policies in
the system that they're in.
Yes, and all of that's publicinformation, but sometimes the
(07:31):
way that is written is a littlebit dense to decipher who has
the the time to sit there andjust drill through all that?
Storie (07:37):
We all have full-time jobs, right, that's right.
Xavier (07:40):
And usually it's not that it's a part-time problem,
it's just that it's only a pieceof the huge puzzle that we're
all dealing with.
Storie (07:47):
Right.
Xavier (07:48):
And if you're a nonprofit and trying to advocate
for some little kid out there,whatever it is the homeless or
whatever the happenstance, isreally legislation and the rule
of law is kind of what brings usall together.
So, as those things change, itaffects us all, sometimes less
(08:08):
than others Of course.
But it depends on where you sit.
Storie (08:12):
Absolutely so.
You've brought together a veryantiquated system together with
AI.
Xavier (08:19):
That's right.
Storie (08:20):
And how did you begin this transformation?
Where was your starting pointof helping to solve this huge
issue?
Xavier (08:29):
So when they told me that original story of just how
manual the process was, thatthey were working, and I started
thinking about all the gapsthat we talked about and then
even others Like.
Well, how do you know that thekey word is even getting to the
search that you're looking for?
Storie (08:48):
Right.
Right, because there's no, youknow, general help desk that
tells you exactly what to doUnless you read through it word
for word yes, so how do?
Xavier (08:55):
you know.
So we needed to make it morerobust, easier to translate,
faster to the answers, and whatwe were competing with was this
manual labor that we just didn'teven know existed and was
overwhelmed.
Storie (09:09):
Right.
Xavier (09:10):
So when it came to that, we researched more.
It turns out the savviestperson in policy to do developed
research is like acongressional research analyst,
because they deal with USlegislation, which is way more
depth sometimes right.
Storie (09:26):
Absolutely.
Xavier (09:27):
If, on average, most legislators put down 100 pages,
they might put down 1,000 pagesright Just to describe the same
efforts.
They might put down a thousandpages, right?
Just to describe the sameefforts, right?
so that guy would take anaverage of 40 to 60 hours to do
the depth of research that itwould take to understand ins and
outs every level of a policy.
So imagine how many peoplearen't having that person on
(09:50):
staff, let alone having thatcapability of time, because when
you remunerate that into justmath as a problem solver, as I
am 40 to 60 hours means, if youcalculate your 2080 of his
full-time work, he's only goingto be able to do 30 to 50
analysis in an entire year.
Storie (10:09):
How is he getting everything else?
Xavier (10:11):
He can't so when you compound that with the idea that
you got a short window of maybe140.
Storie (10:18):
You don't have a whole year and that's not the only
thing they're focusing on.
Xavier (10:22):
I'm sure you've got to not just read it.
You've got to do somethingabout it next right you got to
apply it, you got to advocatefor it, against it, so on and so
forth.
So we just saw uh, an easy spot.
Well, today we're, in a way,more technologically advanced
space than we were yesterday,even right.
And let alone two years ago orfive years ago or 10 years ago.
(10:44):
So the idea of AI being sowidespread is really trying to
figure out.
How do we make it valuable,right?
How do we make it helpful?
How do we humanize it to a waythat it creates a multiplicity
of force, not necessarily just areduction of force?
Absolutely and in this case,we're thinking that these smart
people that were hired werehired because they had strategic
(11:07):
minds that were meant to notjust analyze, but also apply.
Storie (11:13):
Absolutely so.
You're helping them analyze sothat they can apply more
efficiently.
Xavier (11:18):
That's it, so we're trying to empower, whatever that
use case is for you.
So, whether it's in a corporateenvironment or whether it's in
a political environment alegislator, a county civics, you
name it the idea is, how do wehelp you do whatever you're
doing better?
Storie (11:33):
That leads me to a great question is why is it so
important for businesses torespond to legislation faster?
Xavier (11:42):
Well, the impacts right and ripple effects.
So some of the work that we'vedone is so in-depth because you
just don't know the layers ofimpact until you do the analysis
.
So this goes back toconsumption, right.
Storie (11:59):
First we're going to read something right and say hey
, word for word.
Xavier (12:02):
We think we read it right.
Then we're going to try todecide do we understand?
That's where the comprehensioncomes in right.
And that's just the words thatare on the paper right.
That's the words that are onthe paper.
Storie (12:14):
Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I mean it's a whole
job in itself.
Xavier (12:18):
Yes, so now get to my third level.
Third level is analysis.
So that's what's theimplications of the words that
are on the paper?
Well, that's not just mentionedin the words on the paper.
Storie (12:29):
That's the important part, right, that's the
important part.
Xavier (12:32):
So does it change other laws or other codes or other
effective places that arealready impacting me?
And that could be thedifference of revenue, it could
be the difference of cost, itcould be the difference of labor
, it could be the difference ofsupply, absolutely the demand
that's going to happen so manydifferent areas that it could
affect a total economic state.
(12:52):
For me, right, Wow.
So everybody's going to beimpacted by their legislation.
That happens.
That's why it's so important tobe a part of that citizenship.
Storie (13:01):
On the local level.
We're not just out here votingfor presidents, y'all the local
is what affects us.
Xavier (13:10):
Right, it comes down to your backyard right.
When your property taxes hityou, when that sales tax hits
you, where all that money goes?
Is it affecting your school, Isit not?
So on and so forth.
And if you don't know, thatdoesn't mean that it's not going
to apply to you.
Storie (13:26):
Absolutely.
It's still going to hit you.
I know I'm feeling the painfrom it on the whole home
insurance that I'm sureeveryone's feeling it as well.
So how do you build trust andauthority in a field like
legislation, intelligence, howdo you help people understand
the importance and how do youimplement it?
Xavier (13:45):
So we started with the facts, right.
The base source, details.
We connect everything back tothe legislators themselves,
right?
So we're pulling the detailsdirect down to make sure that
you can always pull it back.
Read it for yourself word forword, and you could do this same
analysis.
It just might take you morethan the minutes that it takes
(14:06):
us to help you and translatethat right.
Absolutely 40 to 60 hoursminutes after clicking a button.
Well, that's going to changethe way that you think.
It might change the amount ofway policies that you are able
to research.
It might change the amount ofthings that you advocate for or
against or the things thatyou're concerned about, because
(14:27):
you just had no awareness before, you had no time to take that
depth.
So we just took that firstright right, which is let's use
the information that's alreadythere.
And the second part is that wewanted to make sure that we were
replicating a strategy that wasalready sound, it was already
historic, it was already outthere which is why we went after
(14:49):
who already performs best.
Who are we all looking to?
Storie (14:54):
That's a great question To say who could give us that
answer.
Yeah, who was it?
Xavier (14:57):
It was that Congressional Research Service
Analyst right.
Storie (15:00):
Wow.
Xavier (15:01):
And it was the idea that depth that they can provide and
there's lots of different typesof analysts that are out there,
but the depth that theyprovided was right next to the
length and the depth that alawyer would provide Right.
But, the lawyer was only focusedon the legal aspects Right,
whereas the congressional personwas looking at all the
(15:22):
stakeholders everybody who couldbe concerned, because they
don't know if it's going to bethe businessman that comes to
the to the office next, or ifit's going to be another
political office, you know,lower level government, or if
it's going to be a nonprofit orNGO or advocacy group.
They don't know who's going tohave the smoke for them tomorrow
.
Storie (15:40):
Right, I love that.
I love the way you say that.
So this is, this is.
I'm so glad you put policy inthe name of your company versus
legislation, because when I seelegislation it scares me.
Policy is a lot more coming.
It's like, okay, how can youhelp me, right?
So how do you market to yourdemographic?
(16:01):
What exactly is yourdemographic that you're trying
to broadcast your brand to?
Xavier (16:06):
Sure, well really.
There's a lot of stakeholders,right From the government and
legislator space to the NGOs orthe advocacy groups,
universities, all the way to thepolitical parties themselves or
the legislators themselvesright.
Because we all have our ownviewpoint and perspective of how
(16:27):
the policy is important to us.
Now, from a client standpoint,we think that the most impacted
clients are probably going to bethose Fortune 1000 folks who
are dealing inmulti-jurisdiction, because it
gets complex right when you'retalking about 50 states.
You're that big big dog outthere operating all over the
place.
(16:47):
That might get to be a hugeconcern, and probably one of
those guys who's spending a lotof their labor dollars towards
that research Absolutely.
And then you get into governmentcontractors Like everything's
affecting them, right?
So everything about their topline revenue is affected, which
you can't spend money onsalaries or anything if you
can't get the revenue in andlegislation is hugely impactful,
(17:10):
other investors.
Well, if you're a privateequity or venture capital or
really widespread hedge guy,you're investing again in
multi-jurisdictions trying torecover all over the place,
right?
You need to know that thosebusinesses you're backing are
seriously in position to createthe value that you're looking to
return.
Absolutely, and that's going tobe important.
And then, of course, you've gotthose advocacy groups right,
(17:32):
those lobbyist kind of groupswhere not everybody can afford
all the resources on their own.
So that's when they look tothose advocacy groups.
Let's pool our resourcestogether and instead of being
just one realtor, we're theRealtor Association, and instead
of being just one realtor,we're the Realtor Association.
Now we can afford to haveresources that we can share
across our whole body, where nowwe're smarter together.
(17:54):
So those guys are all lookingto help more constituents, right
.
And that's our goal.
How do we bridge whatever thatuse case is that you want?
And our goal was to reallybring the two words together
policy and sage right the wisdomwe want you to have, whatever
(18:16):
wisdom you need.
Storie (18:16):
So we gave you the sandbox and it's really up to
you to plan it how you see fit.
Absolutely.
I love that.
The initial start of your focusand mission was to help the
community understand and be moreinvolved and then, after you've
created this wonderful softwareprogram business, at the end of
it you're bringing thatcommunity together, and so you
(18:37):
went full circle with it.
That's right and that's a trueleader, I would think.
Do you have mentors in yourlife that you looked up to to
kind of help navigate yourjourney?
I mean, going from being a partof the corporate world to
owning your own business,especially cutting edge, is a
huge jump.
Did you have leaders that youfollowed along the way?
Xavier (18:58):
Well, yes, actually, there's some great Texans who
have venture companies, privateequity like Robert Smith, who's
done some amazing things andaccumulated some superior wealth
, and then even locally, we'retrying to inspire more growth
and more knowledge and moreactivation here locally, so
(19:34):
really using and leaning on allthose resources in the network
to cultivate something great.
They've even got greatco-working spaces, like this one
, nouveau Desk or or Spark orHEXA Innovation Centers.
That are all a part of tryingto build and integrate and give
more value, even the RichardsonIQ and what they're doing at UTD
(19:57):
with their Center forArtificial Intelligence and
Machine Learning right Likethese days, the knowledge is
just moving so fast.
You've really got to be a partof the community and share the
wealth of knowledge right?
Because we're all just tryingto figure out how to create
something valuable, right,something useful and something
that's going to have longevity,and I think that's what we've
(20:20):
created here.
Storie (20:21):
And be willing to receive it right.
I mean, years ago people werevery hesitant about the internet
.
But if you don't jump on thiswagon with everybody else,
you're you're left behind, andit's unfortunate but, why not
learn and grow?
And you're using it in such agood way because with anything,
especially technology, it can beused for good or bad, and
you're really.
I feel like this would helpmore than anyone the nonprofits.
(20:45):
You're optimizing timeunderstanding process for all of
them.
And that could help them be moresuccessful at the end of the
day.
Xavier (20:54):
Yeah Well, everybody who naturally has a smaller labor
force is obviously going to needto rely on more technology.
Right?
Because that's really ourmultiplicity of force, next to
credit and debt and the humancapital that we have right,
absolutely.
So we've got to figure out howto leverage that better, and
this is a perfect use case,right when this is something
(21:15):
that we all had, an itch that wewere trying to scratch.
We just didn't know how largeit was, you know, until we
started diving into the detailsand some people didn't even know
it was an itch that needed tobe scratched right.
Storie (21:27):
With a lot of government issues, I mean, it feels like
everyone's understaffed thesedays.
Xavier (21:37):
And we're trying to all optimize and change things for
the better, right Even thegovernment themselves, right.
Storie (21:41):
Well, I hope they're trying, because I sure am trying
.
So what habits or routines helpyou keep, help, keep you sharp
and on the cutting edge ofeverything?
Xavier (21:49):
Continuous learning, right?
I'm always out there looking atwhat other people are up to in
regards of not just thecompetition but even other
industries.
Right To your point, the waythe technology is moving, you
just don't know what's going tofloat your boat, right, I'm
sorry to say Absolutely, andsometimes directionally.
(22:10):
you can see something thatreally is a huge opportunity
right and a gap that can befilled, or another partnership
that can be made or a synergythat can happen or be
orchestrated.
Someone mentioned nonprofitsrecently that they could be a
good help, and they alsomentioned that sometimes they
don't have the adequate fundingto support themselves.
(22:32):
That same person went as far assaid well, you know, what I
think could be a great idea isthere's foundations that will
help emergency funding fornonprofits to fill gaps.
To fill gaps and wouldn't thisbe a great gap to fill with how
active the legislator is and howit's changing some of their
funding aspects to say, hey,let's go to this foundation to
(22:53):
fund getting me technologythat'll put me up to speed, to
support.
And I said, wow, I wouldhappily not only give them a
discount but help support,bridge those gaps right.
Storie (23:02):
Absolutely Atmo.
We have a discovery process.
It's a lot like that After wefinish our discovery process and
doing a deep dive, you can takethat and get funding from the
bank, saying I need this moneyfor my business, for the
marketing aspect, and this iswhy Right, and so you're doing
the same thing.
You can do it really with a lotof different businesses.
(23:24):
If you show a need, right, thenhow can they tell you no at the
end of the day?
Xavier (23:29):
Decision analytics.
We want you to make a decisivechoice.
I love it and we need you tohave some facts to do it, and
that's really what thatdiscovery process helps out on
your side.
And in our version we're justtrying to do that with how we
help you break out legislation.
Storie (23:45):
Man.
That's so wonderful to hear.
So what's on the horizon?
Xavier (23:49):
Customers, more and more of them.
We've got one of the top 10counties in the country.
That was one of our greatcustomers that we onboarded
recently.
Storie (23:59):
Wow, congratulations Thank you, thank you.
Xavier (24:02):
We're super excited about that and we're seeing that
there's a lot of interest in alot of different industries and
sectors.
So now we're onboarding abigger sales staff.
You know people who can help bein front of all these folks and
translate what we're up to,show them how we can help and
intake.
Where's the next edge, where'sthe next corner?
(24:23):
How can we improve our roadmapto really be even more efficient
to what would help changethings right?
Now we know and believe, fromthe response that we already
have, that this is a great start, absolutely.
But, that's the beauty of newtechnology, right?
This is just the beginning.
Storie (24:41):
Constantly be willing to innovate and change.
That's a wonderful mindset thatyou have.
Innovate and change that's awonderful mindset that you have.
I ask every guest of mine atthe end of the show what is one
thing that you would tellanother business owner?
To your first self, right, yourfirst self that got into this,
your first self that learnedabout this.
What's something you wish youknew before now.
Xavier (25:04):
Sure, well, I've done a lot of different things in
business and they always say youget conflicting information,
sometimes right?
So once I heard the only shipdestined to sink is a
partnership.
And that was pretty funny,because the reality is true.
Wealth isn't gained byindependence.
(25:25):
Right?
There's nobody sitting in abasement by themselves.
The people we think of areconnected to the World Wide Web.
That's right, so they're reallyconnected to all of us, so it's
really about synergy andpartnerships.
Sometimes people have badexperiences with collecting the
wrong partners, but the realityis teamwork is the dream work.
You've got to have people whocan support what you're up to,
(25:48):
who can advocate for you, whocan let you know when you're
wrong right.
Storie (25:51):
Absolutely.
Xavier (25:52):
Who can push you in the right direction and who can put
some hands-on utility into whatyou're doing sometimes right,
that's awesome.
Because having an idea is great, but you've got to get rubber
to the road right.
Storie (26:04):
I love the way you say that You've you gotta get it to
the road, baby.
Talking about it's completelydifferent than implementing it.
Right we can always hypothesistest.
Xavier (26:11):
That's a good start.
Storie (26:12):
You know we gotta start hypothesizing right but then we
gotta get to the test part andthat's, I guess, when you find
out if you're a true businessowner, right?
That's right the implementingpart there's where the risk goes
wonderful.
So if anyone wants to learnmore about you, become a part of
your team, or is interested inyou coming to visit them to help
them, how can they reach you?
Xavier (26:31):
Absolutely.
Check out our websitewwwpolicy-sagecom.
Storie (26:38):
Awesome, and I will also list that in the information
below.
Thank you so much for joiningus and I cannot wait to see what
you do throughout the year.
Xavier (26:46):
Excellent, it was delightful.
I really appreciate it.
Storie (26:48):
Thanks, Xavier, and to all of our listeners out there.
If you would like to make achange or need help making a
change, please reach out toXavier.
I'm your host, Dori, and we'llsee you next time.
Welcome back to Market it With Atma, where we share the
tips, tools and strategies tohelp your business be successful
.
Tools and strategies to helpyour business be successful.
I'm your host Story and todaywe have on the show CEO of
PolicySage, mr Xavier Egan.
Welcome, xavier.
Xavier (00:32):
Well, thank you for having me.
Storie (00:33):
Thank you for coming.
This podcast I'm excited aboutbecause I am not familiar with
what you do, and that's rare.
Xavier (00:40):
Well, there we go.
I'm here to illuminate.
Storie (00:43):
Thank you.
So first tell me, I guess notso much about PolicySage, but
what navigated you in thedirection to create PolicySage,
and then you can tell me moreabout it if you like.
Xavier (00:54):
Sure, so this was really something that came from the
community.
We have an office here inArlington, Texas, the dream city
right Of course so.
I participate locally in thecommunity in a lot of different
ways, and we were talking oneday about Bill Watch and I never
(01:15):
heard about that right, I wasjust making a light joke, you
know?
Hey, I'm leading the committee.
That sounds like a boringchannel, right?
Storie (01:23):
To be honest, right Transparency is the best policy.
Xavier (01:26):
That's what I thought.
Storie (01:27):
So we kind of laughed about it.
Xavier (01:28):
They're like no, it's not a TV channel, it's what we
do to try to advocate for ourorganization Interesting, and
that's what I said.
Storie (01:36):
Tell me more, right.
Xavier (01:38):
So, okay, they say, well , we go to the legislator site
and we search for different keywords that are important to us,
you know, women, men, children,substance, education, whatever
it is, and we use their systemto pull back whatever
legislative policy might beimportant to us.
Right?
Storie (01:58):
Within those key words.
Within those key words, Igotcha Right OK.
Xavier (02:01):
And then what next?
I say?
They say, well, we pull it down, take the PDF, we attach it to
Excel file, we try to read itbest we can and try to translate
what we think it means todecide if we should advocate or
not.
Storie (02:16):
Ooh.
And I said oh, that leaves alot of room for error.
Xavier (02:19):
it seems like yes yes, and not to say people aren't the
best and worst thing about life, but, geez, they are the best
and worst thing.
Storie (02:27):
No one's perfect right, that's right.
Xavier (02:29):
So there's a lot of subjectivity there.
Storie (02:31):
Interpretation.
Xavier (02:33):
Interpretation, lost art of language, all sorts of
things that can happen.
Storie (02:37):
And.
Xavier (02:38):
I'm like, ok, well, naturally you got the same
things that I thought and then Isaid, well, let's just talk
about maybe this isn't a bigdeal.
What's the volume that youusually deal in?
Right and they're like well,how many I'm trying to track
myself.
I'm like yeah.
In that Excel file.
What are you looking at?
Maybe a couple hundred.
I'm like ugh.
Storie (02:58):
Wow, a couple hundred.
What?
Xavier (03:00):
exactly A couple hundred bills and policies that are
deployed in that statelegislator.
Oh, my goodness that they'retrying to figure out and I said,
oh well, that already seemedlike a lot.
Well, how many are you totallyfacing?
Storie (03:13):
Right.
Xavier (03:13):
And that's when the wow moment happened.
They said well, you know, inTexas alone maybe in a natural
legislator we're seeing about8,000 proposed bills.
I said oh, oh my.
And I looked and researchedmyself and across the country
there's about 150,000 to 200,000proposed bills and laws in
(03:37):
every legislative session.
Storie (03:40):
Oh, my goodness, how do you have the time or capacity to
go through each and every oneaccurately?
Xavier (03:46):
Exactly, and if you really wanted to know if you
were looking out for your houseor your business or any type of
interest, right, you wouldimagine you got to read it all.
Storie (03:58):
I would.
I mean, I'm a term andconditions girl.
I will read every line, right.
Xavier (04:02):
Right now in just Texasxas and our legislators
getting the closeout phase right.
There's over 10 000 policiesthey proposed this session and
about 47 000 pages.
Last time I checked well theaverage reading pace and they
say we aren't average anymore.
Uh, it would take them about 12, 13 weeks just to consume that
(04:27):
information.
Storie (04:28):
Not even absorb it, just to read it.
Xavier (04:30):
That's it, not to comprehend it.
Storie (04:31):
Right, right, that's just consuming.
Xavier (04:33):
I read it and we all know, the first time you read
something, you never geteverything that you're looking
for.
Storie (04:38):
Absolutely not.
Xavier (04:38):
You've got to go back and pen it again and again and
put your finger on it.
That day I probably didn'tabsorb anything, right you were
hungry or hangry, you might nothave caught anything that is
very real, very true imagineit's 47 000 pages.
Well, let's talk even crazieracross the states, all states
and the federal level.
(04:59):
That 150 to 200 000000 convertsinto 100 million pages.
Storie (05:05):
No, you'd have to have a team of people just reading
constantly.
But then therein lies anotherproblem.
Xavier (05:11):
That's right.
You'd open it to interpretationagain.
Well, and not just that, itturns out, there's even more
problems to really solve.
Storie (05:17):
Well, I mean, we're talking about legislation here.
Xavier (05:19):
Now you get the point here, and this was all
illuminating for me.
It wasn't that this was mybackground as much as just being
a normal citizen trying tounderstand how can I help myself
or help others.
And the short windows is yournext issue.
So in the traditionallegislature, say in Texas, it's
maybe 140, 160 days, not a fullyear.
(05:42):
You don't even have a full yearto understand what's happening.
That's not even half a year.
Okay, in the shortestlegislator it might be two weeks
session.
in their shortest specialsession they can provide in a
different state right and then,maybe two to three months right
is a more average small sessionthat they have to get every bill
(06:04):
, every law in every sectorcovered for your state.
And then you imagine at thefederal level they're doing this
across all 50 states, affectingeverybody, not just in our
local area so you're a problemsolver.
You saw a problem now you seewhere I'm at and you're trying
to solve it.
I just saw a problem.
Now you see where I'm at andyou're trying to solve it.
(06:25):
I just solve a problem.
Storie (06:25):
Walking around here, solving everybody's problem.
Xavier (06:27):
That's it.
I was just walking down thestreet one day and I stumbled
into a pothole.
Storie (06:31):
But you know what?
That's life, right?
Either you have a passion andyou focus on it or you move on
with the rest and you'reactually trying to make some
change here, right?
That's right, okay.
So how did Policy Sage and thename actually come to life?
Xavier (06:46):
Yes.
So the idea of you know, andlegislation is a thick and long
term right, it's already complexin nature so we didn't want to
use that word.
Policy kind of covers a morebroad variety, and the reason
that was important to us isbecause you might think of
policy in a variety of ways.
You know, inside of anorganization is one way, but
(07:09):
then when you think aboutexternal policy, it might be
code or ordinance right, or itcould be county level.
City level, it could be stateright, or it could be county
level.
City level, it could be statelevel, it could be federal level
.
Yes, so many different ways.
It could be your local schoolboard that you're concerned
about it could be youruniversity and the policies in
the system that they're in.
Yes, and all of that's publicinformation, but sometimes the
(07:31):
way that is written is a littlebit dense to decipher who has
the the time to sit there andjust drill through all that?
Storie (07:37):
We all have full-time jobs, right, that's right.
Xavier (07:40):
And usually it's not that it's a part-time problem,
it's just that it's only a pieceof the huge puzzle that we're
all dealing with.
Storie (07:47):
Right.
Xavier (07:48):
And if you're a nonprofit and trying to advocate
for some little kid out there,whatever it is the homeless or
whatever the happenstance, isreally legislation and the rule
of law is kind of what brings usall together.
So, as those things change, itaffects us all, sometimes less
(08:08):
than others Of course.
But it depends on where you sit.
Storie (08:12):
Absolutely so.
You've brought together a veryantiquated system together with
AI.
Xavier (08:19):
That's right.
Storie (08:20):
And how did you begin this transformation?
Where was your starting pointof helping to solve this huge
issue?
Xavier (08:29):
So when they told me that original story of just how
manual the process was, thatthey were working, and I started
thinking about all the gapsthat we talked about and then
even others Like.
Well, how do you know that thekey word is even getting to the
search that you're looking for?
Storie (08:48):
Right.
Right, because there's no, youknow, general help desk that
tells you exactly what to doUnless you read through it word
for word yes, so how do?
Xavier (08:55):
you know.
So we needed to make it morerobust, easier to translate,
faster to the answers, and whatwe were competing with was this
manual labor that we just didn'teven know existed and was
overwhelmed.
Storie (09:09):
Right.
Xavier (09:10):
So when it came to that, we researched more.
It turns out the savviestperson in policy to do developed
research is like acongressional research analyst,
because they deal with USlegislation, which is way more
depth sometimes right.
Storie (09:26):
Absolutely.
Xavier (09:27):
If, on average, most legislators put down 100 pages,
they might put down 1,000 pagesright Just to describe the same
efforts.
They might put down a thousandpages, right?
Just to describe the sameefforts, right?
so that guy would take anaverage of 40 to 60 hours to do
the depth of research that itwould take to understand ins and
outs every level of a policy.
So imagine how many peoplearen't having that person on
(09:50):
staff, let alone having thatcapability of time, because when
you remunerate that into justmath as a problem solver, as I
am 40 to 60 hours means, if youcalculate your 2080 of his
full-time work, he's only goingto be able to do 30 to 50
analysis in an entire year.
Storie (10:09):
How is he getting everything else?
Xavier (10:11):
He can't so when you compound that with the idea that
you got a short window of maybe140.
Storie (10:18):
You don't have a whole year and that's not the only
thing they're focusing on.
Xavier (10:22):
I'm sure you've got to not just read it.
You've got to do somethingabout it next right you got to
apply it, you got to advocatefor it, against it, so on and so
forth.
So we just saw uh, an easy spot.
Well, today we're, in a way,more technologically advanced
space than we were yesterday,even right.
And let alone two years ago orfive years ago or 10 years ago.
(10:44):
So the idea of AI being sowidespread is really trying to
figure out.
How do we make it valuable,right?
How do we make it helpful?
How do we humanize it to a waythat it creates a multiplicity
of force, not necessarily just areduction of force?
Absolutely and in this case,we're thinking that these smart
people that were hired werehired because they had strategic
(11:07):
minds that were meant to notjust analyze, but also apply.
Storie (11:13):
Absolutely so.
You're helping them analyze sothat they can apply more
efficiently.
Xavier (11:18):
That's it, so we're trying to empower, whatever that
use case is for you.
So, whether it's in a corporateenvironment or whether it's in
a political environment alegislator, a county civics, you
name it the idea is, how do wehelp you do whatever you're
doing better?
Storie (11:33):
That leads me to a great question is why is it so
important for businesses torespond to legislation faster?
Xavier (11:42):
Well, the impacts right and ripple effects.
So some of the work that we'vedone is so in-depth because you
just don't know the layers ofimpact until you do the analysis
.
So this goes back toconsumption, right.
Storie (11:59):
First we're going to read something right and say hey
, word for word.
Xavier (12:02):
We think we read it right.
Then we're going to try todecide do we understand?
That's where the comprehensioncomes in right.
And that's just the words thatare on the paper right.
That's the words that are onthe paper.
Storie (12:14):
Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I mean it's a whole
job in itself.
Xavier (12:18):
Yes, so now get to my third level.
Third level is analysis.
So that's what's theimplications of the words that
are on the paper?
Well, that's not just mentionedin the words on the paper.
Storie (12:29):
That's the important part, right, that's the
important part.
Xavier (12:32):
So does it change other laws or other codes or other
effective places that arealready impacting me?
And that could be thedifference of revenue, it could
be the difference of cost, itcould be the difference of labor
, it could be the difference ofsupply, absolutely the demand
that's going to happen so manydifferent areas that it could
affect a total economic state.
(12:52):
For me, right, Wow.
So everybody's going to beimpacted by their legislation.
That happens.
That's why it's so important tobe a part of that citizenship.
Storie (13:01):
On the local level.
We're not just out here votingfor presidents, y'all the local
is what affects us.
Xavier (13:10):
Right, it comes down to your backyard right.
When your property taxes hityou, when that sales tax hits
you, where all that money goes?
Is it affecting your school, Isit not?
So on and so forth.
And if you don't know, thatdoesn't mean that it's not going
to apply to you.
Storie (13:26):
Absolutely.
It's still going to hit you.
I know I'm feeling the painfrom it on the whole home
insurance that I'm sureeveryone's feeling it as well.
So how do you build trust andauthority in a field like
legislation, intelligence, howdo you help people understand
the importance and how do youimplement it?
Xavier (13:45):
So we started with the facts, right.
The base source, details.
We connect everything back tothe legislators themselves,
right?
So we're pulling the detailsdirect down to make sure that
you can always pull it back.
Read it for yourself word forword, and you could do this same
analysis.
It just might take you morethan the minutes that it takes
(14:06):
us to help you and translatethat right.
Absolutely 40 to 60 hoursminutes after clicking a button.
Well, that's going to changethe way that you think.
It might change the amount ofway policies that you are able
to research.
It might change the amount ofthings that you advocate for or
against or the things thatyou're concerned about, because
(14:27):
you just had no awareness before, you had no time to take that
depth.
So we just took that firstright right, which is let's use
the information that's alreadythere.
And the second part is that wewanted to make sure that we were
replicating a strategy that wasalready sound, it was already
historic, it was already outthere which is why we went after
(14:49):
who already performs best.
Who are we all looking to?
Storie (14:54):
That's a great question To say who could give us that
answer.
Yeah, who was it?
Xavier (14:57):
It was that Congressional Research Service
Analyst right.
Storie (15:00):
Wow.
Xavier (15:01):
And it was the idea that depth that they can provide and
there's lots of different typesof analysts that are out there,
but the depth that theyprovided was right next to the
length and the depth that alawyer would provide Right.
But, the lawyer was only focusedon the legal aspects Right,
whereas the congressional personwas looking at all the
(15:22):
stakeholders everybody who couldbe concerned, because they
don't know if it's going to bethe businessman that comes to
the to the office next, or ifit's going to be another
political office, you know,lower level government, or if
it's going to be a nonprofit orNGO or advocacy group.
They don't know who's going tohave the smoke for them tomorrow
.
Storie (15:40):
Right, I love that.
I love the way you say that.
So this is, this is.
I'm so glad you put policy inthe name of your company versus
legislation, because when I seelegislation it scares me.
Policy is a lot more coming.
It's like, okay, how can youhelp me, right?
So how do you market to yourdemographic?
(16:01):
What exactly is yourdemographic that you're trying
to broadcast your brand to?
Xavier (16:06):
Sure, well really.
There's a lot of stakeholders,right From the government and
legislator space to the NGOs orthe advocacy groups,
universities, all the way to thepolitical parties themselves or
the legislators themselvesright.
Because we all have our ownviewpoint and perspective of how
(16:27):
the policy is important to us.
Now, from a client standpoint,we think that the most impacted
clients are probably going to bethose Fortune 1000 folks who
are dealing inmulti-jurisdiction, because it
gets complex right when you'retalking about 50 states.
You're that big big dog outthere operating all over the
place.
(16:47):
That might get to be a hugeconcern, and probably one of
those guys who's spending a lotof their labor dollars towards
that research Absolutely.
And then you get into governmentcontractors Like everything's
affecting them, right?
So everything about their topline revenue is affected, which
you can't spend money onsalaries or anything if you
can't get the revenue in andlegislation is hugely impactful,
(17:10):
other investors.
Well, if you're a privateequity or venture capital or
really widespread hedge guy,you're investing again in
multi-jurisdictions trying torecover all over the place,
right?
You need to know that thosebusinesses you're backing are
seriously in position to createthe value that you're looking to
return.
Absolutely, and that's going tobe important.
And then, of course, you've gotthose advocacy groups right,
(17:32):
those lobbyist kind of groupswhere not everybody can afford
all the resources on their own.
So that's when they look tothose advocacy groups.
Let's pool our resourcestogether and instead of being
just one realtor, we're theRealtor Association, and instead
of being just one realtor,we're the Realtor Association.
Now we can afford to haveresources that we can share
across our whole body, where nowwe're smarter together.
(17:54):
So those guys are all lookingto help more constituents, right
.
And that's our goal.
How do we bridge whatever thatuse case is that you want?
And our goal was to reallybring the two words together
policy and sage right the wisdomwe want you to have, whatever
(18:16):
wisdom you need.
Storie (18:16):
So we gave you the sandbox and it's really up to
you to plan it how you see fit.
Absolutely.
I love that.
The initial start of your focusand mission was to help the
community understand and be moreinvolved and then, after you've
created this wonderful softwareprogram business, at the end of
it you're bringing thatcommunity together, and so you
(18:37):
went full circle with it.
That's right and that's a trueleader, I would think.
Do you have mentors in yourlife that you looked up to to
kind of help navigate yourjourney?
I mean, going from being a partof the corporate world to
owning your own business,especially cutting edge, is a
huge jump.
Did you have leaders that youfollowed along the way?
Xavier (18:58):
Well, yes, actually, there's some great Texans who
have venture companies, privateequity like Robert Smith, who's
done some amazing things andaccumulated some superior wealth
, and then even locally, we'retrying to inspire more growth
and more knowledge and moreactivation here locally, so
(19:34):
really using and leaning on allthose resources in the network
to cultivate something great.
They've even got greatco-working spaces, like this one
, nouveau Desk or or Spark orHEXA Innovation Centers.
That are all a part of tryingto build and integrate and give
more value, even the RichardsonIQ and what they're doing at UTD
(19:57):
with their Center forArtificial Intelligence and
Machine Learning right Likethese days, the knowledge is
just moving so fast.
You've really got to be a partof the community and share the
wealth of knowledge right?
Because we're all just tryingto figure out how to create
something valuable, right,something useful and something
that's going to have longevity,and I think that's what we've
(20:20):
created here.
Storie (20:21):
And be willing to receive it right.
I mean, years ago people werevery hesitant about the internet
.
But if you don't jump on thiswagon with everybody else,
you're you're left behind, andit's unfortunate but, why not
learn and grow?
And you're using it in such agood way because with anything,
especially technology, it can beused for good or bad, and
you're really.
I feel like this would helpmore than anyone the nonprofits.
(20:45):
You're optimizing timeunderstanding process for all of
them.
And that could help them be moresuccessful at the end of the
day.
Xavier (20:54):
Yeah Well, everybody who naturally has a smaller labor
force is obviously going to needto rely on more technology.
Right?
Because that's really ourmultiplicity of force, next to
credit and debt and the humancapital that we have right,
absolutely.
So we've got to figure out howto leverage that better, and
this is a perfect use case,right when this is something
(21:15):
that we all had, an itch that wewere trying to scratch.
We just didn't know how largeit was, you know, until we
started diving into the detailsand some people didn't even know
it was an itch that needed tobe scratched right.
Storie (21:27):
With a lot of government issues, I mean, it feels like
everyone's understaffed thesedays.
Xavier (21:37):
And we're trying to all optimize and change things for
the better, right Even thegovernment themselves, right.
Storie (21:41):
Well, I hope they're trying, because I sure am trying
.
So what habits or routines helpyou keep, help, keep you sharp
and on the cutting edge ofeverything?
Xavier (21:49):
Continuous learning, right?
I'm always out there looking atwhat other people are up to in
regards of not just thecompetition but even other
industries.
Right To your point, the waythe technology is moving, you
just don't know what's going tofloat your boat, right, I'm
sorry to say Absolutely, andsometimes directionally.
(22:10):
you can see something thatreally is a huge opportunity
right and a gap that can befilled, or another partnership
that can be made or a synergythat can happen or be
orchestrated.
Someone mentioned nonprofitsrecently that they could be a
good help, and they alsomentioned that sometimes they
don't have the adequate fundingto support themselves.
(22:32):
That same person went as far assaid well, you know, what I
think could be a great idea isthere's foundations that will
help emergency funding fornonprofits to fill gaps.
To fill gaps and wouldn't thisbe a great gap to fill with how
active the legislator is and howit's changing some of their
funding aspects to say, hey,let's go to this foundation to
(22:53):
fund getting me technologythat'll put me up to speed, to
support.
And I said, wow, I wouldhappily not only give them a
discount but help support,bridge those gaps right.
Storie (23:02):
Absolutely Atmo.
We have a discovery process.
It's a lot like that After wefinish our discovery process and
doing a deep dive, you can takethat and get funding from the
bank, saying I need this moneyfor my business, for the
marketing aspect, and this iswhy Right, and so you're doing
the same thing.
You can do it really with a lotof different businesses.
(23:24):
If you show a need, right, thenhow can they tell you no at the
end of the day?
Xavier (23:29):
Decision analytics.
We want you to make a decisivechoice.
I love it and we need you tohave some facts to do it, and
that's really what thatdiscovery process helps out on
your side.
And in our version we're justtrying to do that with how we
help you break out legislation.
Storie (23:45):
Man.
That's so wonderful to hear.
So what's on the horizon?
Xavier (23:49):
Customers, more and more of them.
We've got one of the top 10counties in the country.
That was one of our greatcustomers that we onboarded
recently.
Storie (23:59):
Wow, congratulations Thank you, thank you.
Xavier (24:02):
We're super excited about that and we're seeing that
there's a lot of interest in alot of different industries and
sectors.
So now we're onboarding abigger sales staff.
You know people who can help bein front of all these folks and
translate what we're up to,show them how we can help and
intake.
Where's the next edge, where'sthe next corner?
(24:23):
How can we improve our roadmapto really be even more efficient
to what would help changethings right?
Now we know and believe, fromthe response that we already
have, that this is a great start, absolutely.
But, that's the beauty of newtechnology, right?
This is just the beginning.
Storie (24:41):
Constantly be willing to innovate and change.
That's a wonderful mindset thatyou have.
Innovate and change that's awonderful mindset that you have.
I ask every guest of mine atthe end of the show what is one
thing that you would tellanother business owner?
To your first self, right, yourfirst self that got into this,
your first self that learnedabout this.
What's something you wish youknew before now.
Xavier (25:04):
Sure, well, I've done a lot of different things in
business and they always say youget conflicting information,
sometimes right?
So once I heard the only shipdestined to sink is a
partnership.
And that was pretty funny,because the reality is true.
Wealth isn't gained byindependence.
(25:25):
Right?
There's nobody sitting in abasement by themselves.
The people we think of areconnected to the World Wide Web.
That's right, so they're reallyconnected to all of us, so it's
really about synergy andpartnerships.
Sometimes people have badexperiences with collecting the
wrong partners, but the realityis teamwork is the dream work.
You've got to have people whocan support what you're up to,
(25:48):
who can advocate for you, whocan let you know when you're
wrong right.
Storie (25:51):
Absolutely.
Xavier (25:52):
Who can push you in the right direction and who can put
some hands-on utility into whatyou're doing sometimes right,
that's awesome.
Because having an idea is great, but you've got to get rubber
to the road right.
Storie (26:04):
I love the way you say that You've you gotta get it to
the road, baby.
Talking about it's completelydifferent than implementing it.
Right we can always hypothesistest.
Xavier (26:11):
That's a good start.
Storie (26:12):
You know we gotta start hypothesizing right but then we
gotta get to the test part andthat's, I guess, when you find
out if you're a true businessowner, right?
That's right the implementingpart there's where the risk goes
wonderful.
So if anyone wants to learnmore about you, become a part of
your team, or is interested inyou coming to visit them to help
them, how can they reach you?
Xavier (26:31):
Absolutely.
Check out our websitewwwpolicy-sagecom.
Storie (26:38):
Awesome, and I will also list that in the information
below.
Thank you so much for joiningus and I cannot wait to see what
you do throughout the year.
Xavier (26:46):
Excellent, it was delightful.
I really appreciate it.
Storie (26:48):
Thanks, Xavier, and to all of our listeners out there.
If you would like to make achange or need help making a
change, please reach out toXavier.
I'm your host, Dori, and we'llsee you next time.
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