August 15, 2025 • 25 mins
Every chiropractor knows the challenge: you need new patients, but which marketing channels actually deliver the best return on investment? In this revealing conversation with Scott Desgrosseilliers from Wicked Reports, we dive deep into the often-misunderstood world of marketing attribution and how it can transform your practice's growth strategy.
Scott introduces us to the concept of "reverse funnel math" - a practical approach to determining what you can realistically afford to spend on patient acquisition. Rather than relying on vague promises of ROI, he explains how to work backward from your average patient value to create sustainable marketing campaigns. What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Scott's emphasis on targeting specific pain points rather than generic chiropractic services.
Through concrete examples, Scott demonstrates how creating campaigns for distinct demographics - like pickleball players with elbow pain or CrossFit enthusiasts with lower back issues - dramatically improves conversion rates. He shares practical wisdom on crafting ads that resonate deeply with potential patients: "If I'm online and have that pain point, you already demonstrate that you get my problem more than just 'oh, I know a chiropractor can help me.'"
Perhaps most eye-opening is Scott's breakdown of patient value analysis. While many practices track basic metrics like cost per lead, Scott explains how to measure the actual revenue generated by different patient segments over time. This approach often reveals surprising insights - like discovering that one type of injury might generate three times the revenue of another, allowing you to shift your budget accordingly.
For practitioners with limited marketing budgets, Scott offers a pragmatic roadmap: start by optimizing internal marketing through email campaigns to existing patients, then focus external efforts on a single channel with condition-specific landing pages. He even shares a fascinating tip about leveraging Reddit to improve visibility in AI tools like ChatGPT, which derived approximately 5% of its training data from the platform.
Ready to transform how you think about marketing attribution? This episode provides the blueprint for creating data-driven campaigns that not only bring in new patients but attract the right patients for sustainable practice growth.
- Join Marketing 101 for Chiropractors Facebook Group here
- Learn more at EnricoD.com
- Book a free discovery call with Enrico to level up your business
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Marketing
101.
Thanks for joining us.
This week we got a really coolguest, Scott DeGrossier from
Wicked Reports.
Thanks for being here.
Tell us a little bit about youand what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sure.
So Wicked Reports is amarketing attribution platform,
and that means we have softwarethat determines credit for your
marketing to help advise you onwhere you're wasting money or,
hopefully more optimistically,where you're making money and
should scale your ad spend.
So it seems straightforward,but there's actually a lot of
(00:34):
intricacies to it.
However, we can get into someof the specific use cases for
chiropractors and offices withyou today, so I'm excited to
talk about that.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, it was so cool and you or your team reached out
to me and I read your LinkedIn.
I was like this is a cool one,because that's all you do is you
look at the analytics andyou're in the background of all
this and, as entrepreneurs,we're just at the front.
You know what we're looking for.
We're looking for a new patientand whichever way we can get it
, that's what we want to do, andI find we cheat and run around
(01:05):
corners, try to do it ourselvesor maybe hire different people.
But I like what you're going todo here and I mean this is
going to be a great dive in.
So you kind of guide me withwhere we go with this
conversation and what isintricate data, because, again,
I'm a dumb chiropractor not thatI'm dumb, but that's all I see
is I run my business, I want thenew patients, so I'm seeing the
(01:27):
front of this marketing machineand you're in the back with the
in the engine room making surethat all these things work and
how they work.
So you help me, cause I don'tknow if I'm going to have the
strongest questions for you, sohelp me out here.
When, when we're looking atthis stuff, what's front and
foremost for you when we'relooking at this stuff.
What's front and for uhforemost for you when you're
when you're looking at marketing?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
well, when you first you know you're going to launch
ads to you like I need newpatients, so you need to know
what you can afford to pay toacquire the patient.
And then that involves uh, youknow what I call reverse funnel
math fancy way of saying youwork back from the outcome you
want to get.
So you look at your averagepatient value to start, and you
(02:13):
can't look at the lifetime valuebecause you can't just say, oh,
I have a patient for five years, I can spend this amount of
money based on five years.
You want to get an ROI paybackquicker.
So let's say, you look at youraverage patient value over six
months and I don't know whatwould be an average chiropractor
value for six months.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, I mean, let's keep the math simple.
It's typically around $2,000for most successful
chiropractors, but let's use$1,000 for, like, the
three-month return of a patientthat comes in, you know, for an
acute injury, for whatever, 12visits on average.
Let's just say $1,000 to keepthe math simple on this.
Let's do the reverse funnelmath there okay, so you got
(02:49):
before.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So we're going to start doing the math now, before
we start with this thousand.
Then, to help build our offer,we're going to look at what
makes up a typical thousanddollar patient.
What is, uh, what makes avaluable patient.
So it could be, you know, I'dprobably be pretty valuable.
I was like early fiftiesCrossFit and pickleball always
getting injured, seeing thechiropractor all the time.
(03:11):
But you look at and see ifthere's any demographic thing or
a geographic, because of courseyou're in an area as a
chiropractor, so geo is probablygoing to be just the
surrounding areas, but then itcould be a certain age range.
I mean, I and I knowchiropractors can do a ton of
things.
I've been going to them on andoff for 30 years.
I think it's awesome.
(03:32):
However, you got to have anangle that speaks to specific
people in your marketing.
So let's say, you look at athousand dollars and you find a
lot of pickleball injuries.
Let's just use that one.
Is that a common one or couldit be something else?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ball injuries.
Let's just use that one.
Is that a common one or couldit be something else?
Yeah, pickleball, okay.
So you're like okay, I'm gonnamy thousand dollars in three
(03:52):
months pickleball campaign I'mgonna run here.
So then you look back and yousay, okay, how did I first get
them in?
And it could have been for freeconsult or first adjustments
discount, or maybe that's notyour offer, maybe it's just
you're going to give info aroundmost common pickleball injuries
and cures Something there.
Before you even start gettinginto the math, you got to have
an idea.
Okay, I'm going to do a uniqueoffer for these people, so we're
(04:14):
going to try to capture theirattention.
Now that you know you have athousand bucks.
Now you got to decide how muchprofit from marketing is going
to be in those $1,000.
Because of course, you want tospend a dollar and keep $999.
But you've got to get somethingrealistic in there.
(04:34):
So let's say maybe $200 orwhat's like a ratio that
generally for I don't knowchiropractor margins that well,
different margins for differentfunnels.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So if we use the Facebook, instagram or Meta meta
model, we were trying to getleads in for 20 and if we're
converting at about 40, forevery three that we get, we
should get one in the door.
So for 60 bucks we should get anew patient that comes in
through the door and pays that.
Whatever the discount offer,whatever it is for meta, we're
for google.
We're probably up closer to the$100 mark for that.
(05:05):
Just just.
You know those are divided.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, those are great spreads though Econ.
I mean chiropractors.
I'm sure there's a lot ofchallenges in that industry,
like everyone, but those arebetter spreads than econ gets.
So that's one thing you can sayhey, for all this work, I'm
making a better spread on themarket.
All right, okay, okay so I'lldo the round number uh okay, so
we're gonna try to get sales ata hundred bucks and then so
(05:31):
we're gonna try to get leads atyou said twenty dollars that's.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That's in great areas competitive like miami,
philadelphia, san francisco.
We're probably gonna get leadsat closer to 40.
But but yeah, 20 is really good.
Let's say 30.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
going to get leads at closer to 40, but but yeah, 20
is really good, let's say 30.
Okay, so then, from a marketingattribution perspective for we
haven't even got to that partyet.
But what we want to do then iscreate some unique ads for
unique uh targeting, becauseotherwise they're just like, hey
, come, get you adjustment.
No one, I mean, that's not very.
You've got to match the messageto the pain point that the
people have, and so let's justwe'll work with meta.
(06:09):
In this example, I would createdifferent campaigns around
different targets, like onespecifically for the male
pickleball player, and I'd showa male pickleball player in the
image and maybe wincing orsomething, and it'd be around
are you suffering?
Because everyone gets thatelbow issue, are you suffering?
You know, you just trydifferent one-line hooks around
(06:32):
that and showing to malepickleball players 40 and older,
and then you'll do a separatecampaign doing the same one to
females, even though it's thesame messaging, and then the
whole offer to get the lead inis get your pickleball injury
tune up, or whatever you'regoing to brand it, but something
around again pickleball pain,and however you're going to fix
(06:55):
it, because then you haveresonance of the message and and
it looks like them in the image.
I mean, no one's gonna know,one image is gonna look
perfectly like everyone, but atleast the same sex or the same
age, general area, and so thenthe idea.
Then then, when you're runningit, you've got a couple of
metrics.
Yeah, you're looking at yourcost per lead and your cost per
(07:17):
sale, but then as people, asthey accrue revenue for the
different points, what we do iskeep updating the amount that
that ad actually made instead ofusing because that thousands of
ballpark.
It could be that the women comein and spend 1500 bucks and the
guys are like 300.
Or it could be that thepickleball injuries versus the
CrossFit and it turns outCrossFit way more lucrative.
(07:40):
People hurt themselves on thedeadlift all the time, which
that's what I would get in forthe deadlift like three times.
So you, then you might want tobe like okay, it turns out the
deadlift people are worth threegrand.
Let's use a deadlift person andsomeone doing the deadlift and
wincing in the creative.
Those things can make a bigdifference because if I'm online
and I have that pain point, you, you already demonstrate that
you get my problem more thanjust oh, I know a chiropractor
(08:04):
can help me.
That's going to potentiallydrive more Revit.
But when then, with your funnelmath, what you'll find, like
you've got, you've basicallygiven me benchmarks, meta twenty
dollars, a lead, one in threeor one in four converts and
they're worth a thousand.
But then I measure whatactually occurs and I don't over
correct initially.
(08:24):
But once I've got enoughcustomers in the door, I look at
them versus the benchmark of.
I have my women pickleballplayers, my men pickleball
players, my women CrossFit andmy men CrossFit and I look and
see, okay, which ones areperforming above the benchmark.
I want to spend more thereBecause I've already worked out
(08:45):
my bare minimum benchmark that Iwant.
But where I'm beating theaverage, that's where I pour my
budget in, because if I'mgetting three grand or
converting to one more customera week because of the CrossFit,
I want to make sure to bespending more there because I'll
just be doubling the amount ofcustomers I get from my pay.
That, in essence, is how youuse the day.
You move it around based onwhere you you beating the
(09:07):
benchmarks and where you're notbeating the benchmarks.
We'll talk to you in a minute,but I'll pause there and see if
I'm all tracking right now.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Tracking Great.
I mean, I liked your specificson you know the demographic.
Yeah, Keep going, this is great.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Okay.
So now that I've got that, soI've got you gave me the
benchmark data I ran just and Ithink that's what a chiropractor
should do Just pick the twomost popular, start.
Don't start trying to solve 20problems at once.
Just do one or two.
We'll stick with CrossFit andpickleball, because I know those
happen All my friends.
(09:41):
They just all of a sudden dropoff the text thread.
Oh, I can't play for the nextmonth.
I hurt my Achilles or whatever.
Something's always happeningwith all of us and we're always
like desperate to get back outthere.
Yeah, so you've got your.
You know your male, femaleeither two pain points.
So the ones again, the onesthat are doing better than
average.
You just you got to move budgetthere and spend more and you're
(10:03):
always taking that the thelonger term mindset, not the.
Okay, they got to come in andfirst visit I got to double my
money on them, but a short termtime frame of three months, and
then, as the three months go by,I've got my measurements and
then I have to diagnose the onesthat didn't work.
So it could be, let's just say,the female pickleball player
(10:24):
didn't work.
Then you got to experiment therebecause you know, you still
know that they're.
They're dropping like flies andneed help.
So it's not that.
Oh, I guess no one frompickleball is getting injured.
That's over 50 and female.
It's that your ad isn't working.
So you need to experiment withnew creatives and new hooks.
Now you can just use chat gpt,ai for this.
(10:46):
Um, you go into chat gpt andsay I'm a chiropractor, I'm
targeting women over 50 thatinjure either their calves or
their elbows.
Give me some ad hoc ideas andthere'll be 10 good ones
probably.
Or when you read them you'd belike oh, just change one or two
words.
It's not like.
It's going to be like athree-week market research
(11:06):
project.
It's going to take you likefive minutes to get them in
JetGPT and then you just testthe other ones.
And so then the breakdown ofthe funnel is the ad should
generate clicks.
So you look at click percentageand are you getting more or less
clicks than you normally get?
Because when you test a newcreative and a new hook, is it
(11:28):
getting more clicks?
That's the job of the ad.
The job of the ad isn't to sellthem, it's to get the clicks.
Then, wherever they go with theclick when they get a book with
you.
That's the job is to capturethe email.
So then you analyze those by isit capturing more or less
emails than usual?
And you basically run twoversions of the page at once.
Unusual, and you basically runtwo versions of the page at once
(11:52):
.
Here's my one version with oneangle and here's my other
version where the the sign upbox is at top and it's shorter.
One has a video and one doesn't.
Doesn't have to be meticulouslyeverything you analyze.
It's like big changes.
One is a video, one doesn't.
One is more dramatic, one ismore balanced, or you know
doctoral tone, yeah, and thenwhen you get to the capture, the
(12:15):
appointment, then you look athow many return rates come, and
that could be a function of thedoctor or it could be the type
of injury you target.
I'm supposed to get $1,000, butI'm only getting 300 here.
What's happening?
And is it the treatment?
Is it I'm targeting an injurythat actually isn't worth $1,000
.
I fix it too fast.
That's fine for me as a doctor,but it's not fine for my paid
(12:36):
advertising.
So I got to switch to thelonger term care.
So those are how I break downchiropractor.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, keeping so.
Yeah, now.
Now we slide into your world ofanalyzing this stuff.
You tipped in it because yourbrain is there.
That conversation is not thetypical conversation I have with
most chiros or digital agencies, because they're looking at the
ROI and they talk about thethousand.
All you need is two patients.
(13:04):
We'll spend $2,000 a month andyou just need two patients.
They don't get that because I'mlike well, no, I have to work
with that patient for threemonths to get my $1,000, or two
months to get my $1,000.
So first they didn't get that.
Second, you came back and saidif you're too good or getting
results too fast, you're notgoing to get your $1,000 case
value average.
From that, you're going to get$300.
So you can just see where yourmind is on this and that's why
(13:31):
we've got to keep letting youtalk more and me less.
For the next thing now analyzingthis stuff and getting it in
there.
I know my listeners understandthey make $500,000 a year in
gross revenue.
Their budget is $50,000 a yearin marketing because they know
the 8% to 10% rule.
That's $4,000 a month to spend.
Now we get to play with this.
If they can do it yourself,like I do, I'd get my $4,000 and
I can go ahead and put that allinto marketing.
(13:52):
If I don't, I need to hireScott or Enrico to help me out
to do this.
There's a fee for that,whatever it is, let's say two.
It leaves me with $2,000 in adspend.
What am I doing with that$2,000 to go forward?
Do I dive all into meta and tryand test that for a few months
to see what type of a result Iget, or do I just start throwing
seeds all over the yard, hopingsomething grows?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So there's a couple of things you'd want.
First, you'd want to dial inyour email campaigns assuming
you're capturing emails, becausea lot of your customers you
past customers you might haveother services you can cross
sell them.
So, getting email and sms setup so that people show up for
their appointments, but alsothen you stay on their radar
(14:39):
with all the different otherthings you're doing, like if
you're offering massage oracupuncture or pt pt's huge,
probably, um, or if you're doingyou got a gym as well your
other services.
You want to stay on the radarand email at least, probably
once a week.
So you need someone to writethat email or you have AI write
it for you really fast.
Give it a topic.
(14:59):
It doesn't have to be NobelPeace Prize literature.
You just want to stay on theradar.
Or maybe do an offer hey,repeat customer $ dollars off if
they come in for red lasertreatment today.
So, whatever it is, you can getmore revenue from your existing
customers a lot easier.
So I first set up returningcustomer systems uh, meaning
(15:22):
email and sms.
Get campaigns going that areautomated.
So when those are going to berunning on autopilot for you or
before autopilot, at leastthere's someone writing one
email a week, the offer of theweek, whatever it is, because
those some you could just snareone or two more visits, maybe
more, just from sending an emailfrom your current base.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, internal marketing, we call that.
So you do the internal stuffand then we we want to focus on
the external stuff to try andacquire new customers to our
business.
So when we're looking at thedata there, so we've done it,
we've created the machine.
We have a pickleball thinggoing, we have a knee pain thing
going, we get our stats back.
What are we looking for on areturn?
If we're spending, let's say,two thousand dollars a month on
(16:03):
meta and we run these campaignsfor a few months, what should we
be looking at from a marketingperspective on a return on that?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, there's no one perfect benchmark.
It's by industry, but also it'srelative to yourself.
So when you first start, you'regoing to probably be below your
benchmarks because you orthere's a super right market and
you're going to be above yourbenchmarks because no one's
doing it.
But you basically need to tryto beat yourself every month.
The scoreboard is yourself, notnot an industry standard,
(16:33):
because your, your region andyour comp, you may have more or
less competition than mostpeople, or your geography may be
more or less into chiropractic.
You're willing to do it.
So it's a scoreboard againstyourself that you need to create
.
But then, with two grand, youneed to pick probably one
channel, because it's a lot todo too, and it could be that
google keywords are a betterchoice than meta because those
(16:56):
people are more, uh, pressinglylooking for a solution.
The challenge there is that thecosts for clicks are going to
be a lot higher, most likely.
So again, it's the conversionmath.
So are you going to get becauseyou're probably not going to
get a one click, one sale inkeywords?
You've got to refine yourmessage Now.
(17:18):
One mistake I see is people willfor keywords, all the different
keywords they'll just throw itat the chiropractor homepage,
you got to put it specificallyto that page related to the cure
or whatever pain point it is.
So if it's pickleball, keepwith that one.
Then whatever injuries they'regoogling, that means oh, I might
(17:39):
have heard a pickleball hurtmyself.
Whatever those keywords need togo to the we have the
pickleball solution.
Or if it's knee pain, it's gotto go to your knee pain page on
your website and if you don'thave one, you shouldn't launch
it.
You should just create that onenew page and worry about one
new keyword, one new keywordcluster.
(17:59):
I mean like everything aroundknee pain that's within 50 miles
of Milwaukee if you're theMilwaukee chiropractor, 25 miles
and just just be like.
I want to see if I can get newcustomers that are hurting, that
have knee pain and are lookingfor someone in Milwaukee so you
could go that most competitiveright.
It's the most competitive butit's also the most likely to
(18:19):
generate clicks.
Um, so that one and then theadditional one is to get your
google my business site listing.
You want to get that as up todate as you can because Google,
particularly on Google Near Me's, it shows the local ones.
So the more beefed up yourGoogle Near Me Google Business
which is a free thing the morebeefed up it is, the higher it
(18:42):
shows in results.
So how do you get that beefedup?
You get people to put reviewson your old customers, to put
reviews on your Google myBusiness account, and then it
ranks them, usually reviewsdescending.
So that's a lot of free trafficyou can get as well, which is
something that is a must.
People are going to, you knowthey're going to prowl around a
(19:03):
little.
Reviews are critical.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely critical.
You nailed a home run here.
I think they're on if theylisten to my podcast for the
last few years.
They're on their Google myBusiness.
They have this.
But the listeners out thereright now, how many of you have
a conditions tab on your websitelisting as many possible
conditions as possible?
I mean you should be buildingthis like your blog section and
then your blog should be talkingabout those conditions and how
(19:28):
you resolve those.
No one reads the blogs, but theSEO does.
Google does and same thing withthe condition thing and then
when you're doing your GoogleAdWords, it's going to ask you
for a landing page or whereyou're going to send these
people to.
It's going to be to your kneepain page, your tendonitis page,
your plantar fasciitis page,your sciatica page.
(19:50):
You need to have this stuffthere.
So think about that.
And then many of you aremissing that whole thing and
your website guy can do this foryou.
The website team can do thisfor you.
They create a one tab dropdownwith all the conditions listed
in there.
Those are going to havespecific landing pages to them,
or landing sites that you'regoing to use in your Google
links, and that's going to helpyou convert a little bit better.
(20:11):
So that was great.
That was.
That was a good thing there.
That's the next, the next levelthing as well as well there.
So that's great from thebackend.
Now we're getting into Google alittle bit.
Where do you find so the Googleand so the Google my Business?
(20:37):
You can even put conditions onthere.
I just recently figured thatout, like six, seven months ago
where you on your maps page onthe bottom, they can scroll
through images of conditions,and that's great too.
We've had people look at thatand scroll through that as well
on the Google my Business page.
Where are we going with AI andvoice search?
And how do we even get intothis realm and play that game?
I've had one, and he was in histwenties, this was about a
month ago.
He's like I went to chat GPTand found you.
I'm like how wait, how did youeven find me on chat GPT?
He was just asking on how toresolve a condition and then his
(21:00):
next question is who's theclosest specialist near me that
could do this?
And a few of us popped up, butwe actually ranked in there on
the Google Maps, so chat shouldbe people.
But anyways, we're movingtowards AI, and for me what that
means is when I'm driving in mycar, I can have a full-on
conversation with my car and wecan talk back and forth.
That's where AI is going.
Siri's been with us for a longtime.
(21:21):
Alexa's been with us for a longtime.
They're just becoming better athaving conversational responses
with humans.
So when I'm driving, I'm like,hey, carplay, I have back pain.
It's been bothering me for awhile.
Who are the best people to dealwith in the area to help
resolve this issue?
They're going to have feedback.
How do we play that game?
How do we even get into that?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So ChatGPT is still somewhat of a black box.
However, it trained itself onthe entire web and 5% of it came
from Reddit, of all places.
Wow, if you answer, the way toget listed then is you have your
own Reddit profile.
You can post things there andthen you can answer questions
(22:03):
there and put links to yourpractice and then ChatGPT mines
Reddit.
That's 5% of it.
Now ChatGPT also mines YouTubeand the whole web, so the more
places you are, the more likelyit is to cite you.
We get inbounds from WickerReports at ChatGPT.
There's no one precise thing wecan do except for just keep
(22:24):
getting exposure.
They're gonna have an adplatform next year, so then
that'll be a whole.
Another place to place ads willbe chat GPT platform, but for
now it's just black box,unfortunately yeah, but that's
the Reddit thing there.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Hey, that was huge for the listeners right there.
So create a profile, businessprofile, like brand it as your
business and go in and answerquestions on Reddit for people
in your local area.
You'll have like a Milwaukeepage or a Tampa page and I've
actually seen it and I'veactually been in in those and
answered questions for people uh, pediatric questions or hey,
have you thought about seeing achiropractor?
And it's got our our logo onthe top?
(23:01):
Um, interesting, that's cool.
Never thought about actuallyleveraging reddit a little bit.
I knew about youtube and,because they're google, great,
what else you got?
This was this.
This is it.
We're good, I am.
I am more than happy with thisright?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
yeah, all right.
Well, I'm glad I can help.
Then I'm going to send this tomy chiropractor friends in
menomee falls, wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Oh, awesome, wicked reports um, if anyone has any
deeper questions and they listento this podcast Menomee Falls,
wisconsin oh awesome, so withWicked Reports, if anyone has
any deeper questions and theylisten to this podcast and
they're like man Scott knows hisstuff how do they reach out to
you and maybe contact you ormaybe even work with you in one
way, shape or form?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Sure, WickedReportscom has our
marketing attribution platform.
You don't want to be spendingat least five grand a month to
be on that marketing attributionplatform.
You don't want to be spendingat least five grand a month to
be on that Um the five forcescom.
I have a course in dataanalysis and attribution for
those that are really into it,and I'm available on LinkedIn.
I got a unique last name.
You can.
You can find me there also.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Absolutely.
That's great and I would highlyrecommend you.
Do I mean this is what he doesThanks?
Do I mean this is what he doesThanks for being on the show?
I really appreciate it.
This was tons of greatinformation and just get people
to reach out to you.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Sounds great.
Thanks, enrico, take care, takecare.
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Marketing
101.
Thanks for joining us.
This week we got a really coolguest, Scott DeGrossier from
Wicked Reports.
Thanks for being here.
Tell us a little bit about youand what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sure.
So Wicked Reports is amarketing attribution platform,
and that means we have softwarethat determines credit for your
marketing to help advise you onwhere you're wasting money or,
hopefully more optimistically,where you're making money and
should scale your ad spend.
So it seems straightforward,but there's actually a lot of
(00:34):
intricacies to it.
However, we can get into someof the specific use cases for
chiropractors and offices withyou today, so I'm excited to
talk about that.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, it was so cool and you or your team reached out
to me and I read your LinkedIn.
I was like this is a cool one,because that's all you do is you
look at the analytics andyou're in the background of all
this and, as entrepreneurs,we're just at the front.
You know what we're looking for.
We're looking for a new patientand whichever way we can get it
, that's what we want to do, andI find we cheat and run around
(01:05):
corners, try to do it ourselvesor maybe hire different people.
But I like what you're going todo here and I mean this is
going to be a great dive in.
So you kind of guide me withwhere we go with this
conversation and what isintricate data, because, again,
I'm a dumb chiropractor not thatI'm dumb, but that's all I see
is I run my business, I want thenew patients, so I'm seeing the
(01:27):
front of this marketing machineand you're in the back with the
in the engine room making surethat all these things work and
how they work.
So you help me, cause I don'tknow if I'm going to have the
strongest questions for you, sohelp me out here.
When, when we're looking atthis stuff, what's front and
foremost for you when we'relooking at this stuff.
What's front and for uhforemost for you when you're
when you're looking at marketing?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
well, when you first you know you're going to launch
ads to you like I need newpatients, so you need to know
what you can afford to pay toacquire the patient.
And then that involves uh, youknow what I call reverse funnel
math fancy way of saying youwork back from the outcome you
want to get.
So you look at your averagepatient value to start, and you
(02:13):
can't look at the lifetime valuebecause you can't just say, oh,
I have a patient for five years, I can spend this amount of
money based on five years.
You want to get an ROI paybackquicker.
So let's say, you look at youraverage patient value over six
months and I don't know whatwould be an average chiropractor
value for six months.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, I mean, let's keep the math simple.
It's typically around $2,000for most successful
chiropractors, but let's use$1,000 for, like, the
three-month return of a patientthat comes in, you know, for an
acute injury, for whatever, 12visits on average.
Let's just say $1,000 to keepthe math simple on this.
Let's do the reverse funnelmath there okay, so you got
(02:49):
before.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So we're going to start doing the math now, before
we start with this thousand.
Then, to help build our offer,we're going to look at what
makes up a typical thousanddollar patient.
What is, uh, what makes avaluable patient.
So it could be, you know, I'dprobably be pretty valuable.
I was like early fiftiesCrossFit and pickleball always
getting injured, seeing thechiropractor all the time.
(03:11):
But you look at and see ifthere's any demographic thing or
a geographic, because of courseyou're in an area as a
chiropractor, so geo is probablygoing to be just the
surrounding areas, but then itcould be a certain age range.
I mean, I and I knowchiropractors can do a ton of
things.
I've been going to them on andoff for 30 years.
I think it's awesome.
(03:32):
However, you got to have anangle that speaks to specific
people in your marketing.
So let's say, you look at athousand dollars and you find a
lot of pickleball injuries.
Let's just use that one.
Is that a common one or couldit be something else?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ball injuries.
Let's just use that one.
Is that a common one or couldit be something else?
Yeah, pickleball, okay.
So you're like okay, I'm gonnamy thousand dollars in three
(03:52):
months pickleball campaign I'mgonna run here.
So then you look back and yousay, okay, how did I first get
them in?
And it could have been for freeconsult or first adjustments
discount, or maybe that's notyour offer, maybe it's just
you're going to give info aroundmost common pickleball injuries
and cures Something there.
Before you even start gettinginto the math, you got to have
an idea.
Okay, I'm going to do a uniqueoffer for these people, so we're
(04:14):
going to try to capture theirattention.
Now that you know you have athousand bucks.
Now you got to decide how muchprofit from marketing is going
to be in those $1,000.
Because of course, you want tospend a dollar and keep $999.
But you've got to get somethingrealistic in there.
(04:34):
So let's say maybe $200 orwhat's like a ratio that
generally for I don't knowchiropractor margins that well,
different margins for differentfunnels.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So if we use the Facebook, instagram or Meta meta
model, we were trying to getleads in for 20 and if we're
converting at about 40, forevery three that we get, we
should get one in the door.
So for 60 bucks we should get anew patient that comes in
through the door and pays that.
Whatever the discount offer,whatever it is for meta, we're
for google.
We're probably up closer to the$100 mark for that.
(05:05):
Just just.
You know those are divided.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, those are great spreads though Econ.
I mean chiropractors.
I'm sure there's a lot ofchallenges in that industry,
like everyone, but those arebetter spreads than econ gets.
So that's one thing you can sayhey, for all this work, I'm
making a better spread on themarket.
All right, okay, okay so I'lldo the round number uh okay, so
we're gonna try to get sales ata hundred bucks and then so
(05:31):
we're gonna try to get leads atyou said twenty dollars that's.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That's in great areas competitive like miami,
philadelphia, san francisco.
We're probably gonna get leadsat closer to 40.
But but yeah, 20 is really good.
Let's say 30.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
going to get leads at closer to 40, but but yeah, 20
is really good, let's say 30.
Okay, so then, from a marketingattribution perspective for we
haven't even got to that partyet.
But what we want to do then iscreate some unique ads for
unique uh targeting, becauseotherwise they're just like, hey
, come, get you adjustment.
No one, I mean, that's not very.
You've got to match the messageto the pain point that the
people have, and so let's justwe'll work with meta.
(06:09):
In this example, I would createdifferent campaigns around
different targets, like onespecifically for the male
pickleball player, and I'd showa male pickleball player in the
image and maybe wincing orsomething, and it'd be around
are you suffering?
Because everyone gets thatelbow issue, are you suffering?
You know, you just trydifferent one-line hooks around
(06:32):
that and showing to malepickleball players 40 and older,
and then you'll do a separatecampaign doing the same one to
females, even though it's thesame messaging, and then the
whole offer to get the lead inis get your pickleball injury
tune up, or whatever you'regoing to brand it, but something
around again pickleball pain,and however you're going to fix
(06:55):
it, because then you haveresonance of the message and and
it looks like them in the image.
I mean, no one's gonna know,one image is gonna look
perfectly like everyone, but atleast the same sex or the same
age, general area, and so thenthe idea.
Then then, when you're runningit, you've got a couple of
metrics.
Yeah, you're looking at yourcost per lead and your cost per
(07:17):
sale, but then as people, asthey accrue revenue for the
different points, what we do iskeep updating the amount that
that ad actually made instead ofusing because that thousands of
ballpark.
It could be that the women comein and spend 1500 bucks and the
guys are like 300.
Or it could be that thepickleball injuries versus the
CrossFit and it turns outCrossFit way more lucrative.
(07:40):
People hurt themselves on thedeadlift all the time, which
that's what I would get in forthe deadlift like three times.
So you, then you might want tobe like okay, it turns out the
deadlift people are worth threegrand.
Let's use a deadlift person andsomeone doing the deadlift and
wincing in the creative.
Those things can make a bigdifference because if I'm online
and I have that pain point, you, you already demonstrate that
you get my problem more thanjust oh, I know a chiropractor
(08:04):
can help me.
That's going to potentiallydrive more Revit.
But when then, with your funnelmath, what you'll find, like
you've got, you've basicallygiven me benchmarks, meta twenty
dollars, a lead, one in threeor one in four converts and
they're worth a thousand.
But then I measure whatactually occurs and I don't over
correct initially.
(08:24):
But once I've got enoughcustomers in the door, I look at
them versus the benchmark of.
I have my women pickleballplayers, my men pickleball
players, my women CrossFit andmy men CrossFit and I look and
see, okay, which ones areperforming above the benchmark.
I want to spend more thereBecause I've already worked out
(08:45):
my bare minimum benchmark that Iwant.
But where I'm beating theaverage, that's where I pour my
budget in, because if I'mgetting three grand or
converting to one more customera week because of the CrossFit,
I want to make sure to bespending more there because I'll
just be doubling the amount ofcustomers I get from my pay.
That, in essence, is how youuse the day.
You move it around based onwhere you you beating the
(09:07):
benchmarks and where you're notbeating the benchmarks.
We'll talk to you in a minute,but I'll pause there and see if
I'm all tracking right now.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Tracking Great.
I mean, I liked your specificson you know the demographic.
Yeah, Keep going, this is great.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Okay.
So now that I've got that, soI've got you gave me the
benchmark data I ran just and Ithink that's what a chiropractor
should do Just pick the twomost popular, start.
Don't start trying to solve 20problems at once.
Just do one or two.
We'll stick with CrossFit andpickleball, because I know those
happen All my friends.
(09:41):
They just all of a sudden dropoff the text thread.
Oh, I can't play for the nextmonth.
I hurt my Achilles or whatever.
Something's always happeningwith all of us and we're always
like desperate to get back outthere.
Yeah, so you've got your.
You know your male, femaleeither two pain points.
So the ones again, the onesthat are doing better than
average.
You just you got to move budgetthere and spend more and you're
(10:03):
always taking that the thelonger term mindset, not the.
Okay, they got to come in andfirst visit I got to double my
money on them, but a short termtime frame of three months, and
then, as the three months go by,I've got my measurements and
then I have to diagnose the onesthat didn't work.
So it could be, let's just say,the female pickleball player
(10:24):
didn't work.
Then you got to experiment therebecause you know, you still
know that they're.
They're dropping like flies andneed help.
So it's not that.
Oh, I guess no one frompickleball is getting injured.
That's over 50 and female.
It's that your ad isn't working.
So you need to experiment withnew creatives and new hooks.
Now you can just use chat gpt,ai for this.
(10:46):
Um, you go into chat gpt andsay I'm a chiropractor, I'm
targeting women over 50 thatinjure either their calves or
their elbows.
Give me some ad hoc ideas andthere'll be 10 good ones
probably.
Or when you read them you'd belike oh, just change one or two
words.
It's not like.
It's going to be like athree-week market research
(11:06):
project.
It's going to take you likefive minutes to get them in
JetGPT and then you just testthe other ones.
And so then the breakdown ofthe funnel is the ad should
generate clicks.
So you look at click percentageand are you getting more or less
clicks than you normally get?
Because when you test a newcreative and a new hook, is it
(11:28):
getting more clicks?
That's the job of the ad.
The job of the ad isn't to sellthem, it's to get the clicks.
Then, wherever they go with theclick when they get a book with
you.
That's the job is to capturethe email.
So then you analyze those by isit capturing more or less
emails than usual?
And you basically run twoversions of the page at once.
Unusual, and you basically runtwo versions of the page at once
(11:52):
.
Here's my one version with oneangle and here's my other
version where the the sign upbox is at top and it's shorter.
One has a video and one doesn't.
Doesn't have to be meticulouslyeverything you analyze.
It's like big changes.
One is a video, one doesn't.
One is more dramatic, one ismore balanced, or you know
doctoral tone, yeah, and thenwhen you get to the capture, the
(12:15):
appointment, then you look athow many return rates come, and
that could be a function of thedoctor or it could be the type
of injury you target.
I'm supposed to get $1,000, butI'm only getting 300 here.
What's happening?
And is it the treatment?
Is it I'm targeting an injurythat actually isn't worth $1,000
.
I fix it too fast.
That's fine for me as a doctor,but it's not fine for my paid
(12:36):
advertising.
So I got to switch to thelonger term care.
So those are how I break downchiropractor.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, keeping so.
Yeah, now.
Now we slide into your world ofanalyzing this stuff.
You tipped in it because yourbrain is there.
That conversation is not thetypical conversation I have with
most chiros or digital agencies, because they're looking at the
ROI and they talk about thethousand.
All you need is two patients.
(13:04):
We'll spend $2,000 a month andyou just need two patients.
They don't get that because I'mlike well, no, I have to work
with that patient for threemonths to get my $1,000, or two
months to get my $1,000.
So first they didn't get that.
Second, you came back and saidif you're too good or getting
results too fast, you're notgoing to get your $1,000 case
value average.
From that, you're going to get$300.
So you can just see where yourmind is on this and that's why
(13:31):
we've got to keep letting youtalk more and me less.
For the next thing now analyzingthis stuff and getting it in
there.
I know my listeners understandthey make $500,000 a year in
gross revenue.
Their budget is $50,000 a yearin marketing because they know
the 8% to 10% rule.
That's $4,000 a month to spend.
Now we get to play with this.
If they can do it yourself,like I do, I'd get my $4,000 and
I can go ahead and put that allinto marketing.
(13:52):
If I don't, I need to hireScott or Enrico to help me out
to do this.
There's a fee for that,whatever it is, let's say two.
It leaves me with $2,000 in adspend.
What am I doing with that$2,000 to go forward?
Do I dive all into meta and tryand test that for a few months
to see what type of a result Iget, or do I just start throwing
seeds all over the yard, hopingsomething grows?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So there's a couple of things you'd want.
First, you'd want to dial inyour email campaigns assuming
you're capturing emails, becausea lot of your customers you
past customers you might haveother services you can cross
sell them.
So, getting email and sms setup so that people show up for
their appointments, but alsothen you stay on their radar
(14:39):
with all the different otherthings you're doing, like if
you're offering massage oracupuncture or pt pt's huge,
probably, um, or if you're doingyou got a gym as well your
other services.
You want to stay on the radarand email at least, probably
once a week.
So you need someone to writethat email or you have AI write
it for you really fast.
Give it a topic.
(14:59):
It doesn't have to be NobelPeace Prize literature.
You just want to stay on theradar.
Or maybe do an offer hey,repeat customer $ dollars off if
they come in for red lasertreatment today.
So, whatever it is, you can getmore revenue from your existing
customers a lot easier.
So I first set up returningcustomer systems uh, meaning
(15:22):
email and sms.
Get campaigns going that areautomated.
So when those are going to berunning on autopilot for you or
before autopilot, at leastthere's someone writing one
email a week, the offer of theweek, whatever it is, because
those some you could just snareone or two more visits, maybe
more, just from sending an emailfrom your current base.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, internal marketing, we call that.
So you do the internal stuffand then we we want to focus on
the external stuff to try andacquire new customers to our
business.
So when we're looking at thedata there, so we've done it,
we've created the machine.
We have a pickleball thinggoing, we have a knee pain thing
going, we get our stats back.
What are we looking for on areturn?
If we're spending, let's say,two thousand dollars a month on
(16:03):
meta and we run these campaignsfor a few months, what should we
be looking at from a marketingperspective on a return on that?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, there's no one perfect benchmark.
It's by industry, but also it'srelative to yourself.
So when you first start, you'regoing to probably be below your
benchmarks because you orthere's a super right market and
you're going to be above yourbenchmarks because no one's
doing it.
But you basically need to tryto beat yourself every month.
The scoreboard is yourself, notnot an industry standard,
(16:33):
because your, your region andyour comp, you may have more or
less competition than mostpeople, or your geography may be
more or less into chiropractic.
You're willing to do it.
So it's a scoreboard againstyourself that you need to create
.
But then, with two grand, youneed to pick probably one
channel, because it's a lot todo too, and it could be that
google keywords are a betterchoice than meta because those
(16:56):
people are more, uh, pressinglylooking for a solution.
The challenge there is that thecosts for clicks are going to
be a lot higher, most likely.
So again, it's the conversionmath.
So are you going to get becauseyou're probably not going to
get a one click, one sale inkeywords?
You've got to refine yourmessage Now.
(17:18):
One mistake I see is people willfor keywords, all the different
keywords they'll just throw itat the chiropractor homepage,
you got to put it specificallyto that page related to the cure
or whatever pain point it is.
So if it's pickleball, keepwith that one.
Then whatever injuries they'regoogling, that means oh, I might
(17:39):
have heard a pickleball hurtmyself.
Whatever those keywords need togo to the we have the
pickleball solution.
Or if it's knee pain, it's gotto go to your knee pain page on
your website and if you don'thave one, you shouldn't launch
it.
You should just create that onenew page and worry about one
new keyword, one new keywordcluster.
(17:59):
I mean like everything aroundknee pain that's within 50 miles
of Milwaukee if you're theMilwaukee chiropractor, 25 miles
and just just be like.
I want to see if I can get newcustomers that are hurting, that
have knee pain and are lookingfor someone in Milwaukee so you
could go that most competitiveright.
It's the most competitive butit's also the most likely to
(18:19):
generate clicks.
Um, so that one and then theadditional one is to get your
google my business site listing.
You want to get that as up todate as you can because Google,
particularly on Google Near Me's, it shows the local ones.
So the more beefed up yourGoogle Near Me Google Business
which is a free thing the morebeefed up it is, the higher it
(18:42):
shows in results.
So how do you get that beefedup?
You get people to put reviewson your old customers, to put
reviews on your Google myBusiness account, and then it
ranks them, usually reviewsdescending.
So that's a lot of free trafficyou can get as well, which is
something that is a must.
People are going to, you knowthey're going to prowl around a
(19:03):
little.
Reviews are critical.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely critical.
You nailed a home run here.
I think they're on if theylisten to my podcast for the
last few years.
They're on their Google myBusiness.
They have this.
But the listeners out thereright now, how many of you have
a conditions tab on your websitelisting as many possible
conditions as possible?
I mean you should be buildingthis like your blog section and
then your blog should be talkingabout those conditions and how
(19:28):
you resolve those.
No one reads the blogs, but theSEO does.
Google does and same thing withthe condition thing and then
when you're doing your GoogleAdWords, it's going to ask you
for a landing page or whereyou're going to send these
people to.
It's going to be to your kneepain page, your tendonitis page,
your plantar fasciitis page,your sciatica page.
(19:50):
You need to have this stuffthere.
So think about that.
And then many of you aremissing that whole thing and
your website guy can do this foryou.
The website team can do thisfor you.
They create a one tab dropdownwith all the conditions listed
in there.
Those are going to havespecific landing pages to them,
or landing sites that you'regoing to use in your Google
links, and that's going to helpyou convert a little bit better.
(20:11):
So that was great.
That was.
That was a good thing there.
That's the next, the next levelthing as well as well there.
So that's great from thebackend.
Now we're getting into Google alittle bit.
Where do you find so the Googleand so the Google my Business?
(20:37):
You can even put conditions onthere.
I just recently figured thatout, like six, seven months ago
where you on your maps page onthe bottom, they can scroll
through images of conditions,and that's great too.
We've had people look at thatand scroll through that as well
on the Google my Business page.
Where are we going with AI andvoice search?
And how do we even get intothis realm and play that game?
I've had one, and he was in histwenties, this was about a
month ago.
He's like I went to chat GPTand found you.
I'm like how wait, how did youeven find me on chat GPT?
He was just asking on how toresolve a condition and then his
(21:00):
next question is who's theclosest specialist near me that
could do this?
And a few of us popped up, butwe actually ranked in there on
the Google Maps, so chat shouldbe people.
But anyways, we're movingtowards AI, and for me what that
means is when I'm driving in mycar, I can have a full-on
conversation with my car and wecan talk back and forth.
That's where AI is going.
Siri's been with us for a longtime.
(21:21):
Alexa's been with us for a longtime.
They're just becoming better athaving conversational responses
with humans.
So when I'm driving, I'm like,hey, carplay, I have back pain.
It's been bothering me for awhile.
Who are the best people to dealwith in the area to help
resolve this issue?
They're going to have feedback.
How do we play that game?
How do we even get into that?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So ChatGPT is still somewhat of a black box.
However, it trained itself onthe entire web and 5% of it came
from Reddit, of all places.
Wow, if you answer, the way toget listed then is you have your
own Reddit profile.
You can post things there andthen you can answer questions
(22:03):
there and put links to yourpractice and then ChatGPT mines
Reddit.
That's 5% of it.
Now ChatGPT also mines YouTubeand the whole web, so the more
places you are, the more likelyit is to cite you.
We get inbounds from WickerReports at ChatGPT.
There's no one precise thing wecan do except for just keep
(22:24):
getting exposure.
They're gonna have an adplatform next year, so then
that'll be a whole.
Another place to place ads willbe chat GPT platform, but for
now it's just black box,unfortunately yeah, but that's
the Reddit thing there.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Hey, that was huge for the listeners right there.
So create a profile, businessprofile, like brand it as your
business and go in and answerquestions on Reddit for people
in your local area.
You'll have like a Milwaukeepage or a Tampa page and I've
actually seen it and I'veactually been in in those and
answered questions for people uh, pediatric questions or hey,
have you thought about seeing achiropractor?
And it's got our our logo onthe top?
(23:01):
Um, interesting, that's cool.
Never thought about actuallyleveraging reddit a little bit.
I knew about youtube and,because they're google, great,
what else you got?
This was this.
This is it.
We're good, I am.
I am more than happy with thisright?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
yeah, all right.
Well, I'm glad I can help.
Then I'm going to send this tomy chiropractor friends in
menomee falls, wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Oh, awesome, wicked reports um, if anyone has any
deeper questions and they listento this podcast Menomee Falls,
wisconsin oh awesome, so withWicked Reports, if anyone has
any deeper questions and theylisten to this podcast and
they're like man Scott knows hisstuff how do they reach out to
you and maybe contact you ormaybe even work with you in one
way, shape or form?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Sure, WickedReportscom has our
marketing attribution platform.
You don't want to be spendingat least five grand a month to
be on that marketing attributionplatform.
You don't want to be spendingat least five grand a month to
be on that Um the five forcescom.
I have a course in dataanalysis and attribution for
those that are really into it,and I'm available on LinkedIn.
I got a unique last name.
You can.
You can find me there also.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Absolutely.
That's great and I would highlyrecommend you.
Do I mean this is what he doesThanks?
Do I mean this is what he doesThanks for being on the show?
I really appreciate it.
This was tons of greatinformation and just get people
to reach out to you.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Sounds great.
Thanks, enrico, take care, takecare.
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CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.