November 11, 2025 • 34 mins
We explore how prolonged stress can turn small cracks into deep canyons and how couples can explore those canyons together with empathy, curiosity, and clear practices. Tony shares tools for moving from emotional reactions to intentional responses and offers a hopeful path to deeper intimacy.
• defining prolonged stress and why it magnifies small issues
• emotional intensity scale and spotting old wounds in new conflicts
• switching from reaction to response with inner child work
• grace as empathy plus curiosity in daily moments
• cooperation over compromise and playing on the same team
• disciplines as guardrails for intimacy and calm
• seasonal family vision and renegotiating roles
• code words, listening without fixing, and safe processing
• finding gifts on the other side of wounds
• process goals that keep commitment alive
You can pick up the book on Amazon.com or on, wisdominthewoundbook.com. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend or leave a review.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm super excited about my
guest today.
He is a fellow author, and I amso excited to discuss his book
and dig into the concepts thatare so relevant to married
couples.
My guest today is TonyMiltenberger, but I usually just
(00:22):
say Milt because that's yourhandle, right?
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
Yeah, TW Milt.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
They don't usually have to say the whole thing
drawn out.
And he is a podcaster, anauthor, a friend, a content
creator, and just a superhuman.
And I am excited to discuss thisconcept of accepting and
learning about our ownbrokenness as well as our
partners and being able toaccept and love each other
(00:51):
through all of that.
He's the expert, and I cannotwait to hear what you have to
say.
Welcome, Tony, to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
Monica, it's so good to be on here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
You were have been on my podcasta couple times, and I just value
your content so much.
And uh I was a part of yourintimacy group not too long ago.
I think that's probably a coupleyears ago now, but uh you've
done so much to help mymarriage.
So I'm I'm so excited to be inthis dialogue with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Amazing.
First of all, tell me about thebook.
How did it like what inspiredit?
What made you want to writeabout this topic?
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Yeah, interestingly enough, it's not the book that
came out was not the book that Ihad originally thought I was
gonna write.
And so um during 2020, when theworld felt very shut down and uh
disjointed, my wife and I wereon many walks together.
And most couples that I knowwalked, and we love to walk
still, but we were doing twowalks a day during that time
(01:49):
period.
And there was a day in thatseason where I looked at my
wife, her name is Karen, and Ilooked at Karen and I said,
Babe, I've been here before.
And she was like, Yeah, we werehere this morning.
And I was like, No, no, no, notliterally, like emotionally,
I've been here before.
And I I had the privilege ofserving in the army for 14
(02:11):
years, the reserves, and duringthat time period, I was deployed
from 2004 to 2005.
And one of the things that Ibegan to realize is that
prolonged stress turns cracks inour lives into canyons.
And so prolonged stress is theany kind of stress that where
you don't know what's gonnahappen, you don't know the
(02:33):
outcome, right?
That season of 2020 was one ofthose seasons of prolonged
stress for the world.
Um, but I had also experiencedthat when I was deployed.
And there are seasons, you know,when your kids are toddlers,
like it's prolonged stress.
Like it's there's lots ofseasons in our life where
there's stress that just isaround and it has this ability
(02:55):
to take normal things in ourlife and blow them out of
proportion, kind of blow themup, right?
So cracks into canyons.
You can ignore a crack, you canstep over a crack, but you could
get lost in a canyon.
You could die in a canyon.
Yeah, you could fall off theedge.
Fall off the edge.
But one of the beautiful partsabout canyons is that you can
(03:17):
explore them in ways that youcan never explore cracks.
And so this book is really thematuration of that idea that
maybe maybe it's time for all ofus as husbands and wives to blow
up our cracks and to dive intoour canyons so that the scary
(03:39):
part of our insides don't get asmuch vote in how we live our
lives.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Oh, that was really deep, and I love the way you
said that because the realityis, is our cracks are so
vulnerable, our canyons are sovulnerable, and we expend so
much energy trying to protectourselves and other people from
them that they do really run ourlives.
Like they run, they wreak havocon our relationships, the
(04:06):
adaptation of trying to protect.
And I always say that it'sreally hard to have an intimate
friendship and a passionatepartnership when you can't share
all of yourself with yourspouse.
Cracks and all.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
One of the interesting things that happen
is that uh we're all emotionalpeople.
Like I've never met someonewho's not like, oh, I don't have
any emotions.
Now we emote differently.
I'm an extroverted, emotionalguy.
My wife tends to be a little bitmore refrained, a more uh
intentional kind of human.
And so here's the the truth,though, the wisest leaders that
(04:42):
I know, the people that seem tohave the greatest level of
intimacy, they don't have anabsence of wounding or pain, but
they have an intimacy with it sothat it doesn't scare them.
And so what I try to help peoplewith, couples specifically, is
to kind of challenge them that Idon't want you to have an
emotional reaction, I want youto have an intentional response.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Ooh, say that again.
That was really deep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
I don't want you to have an emotional reaction, I
want you to have an intentionalresponse.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And so the wisdom in the wound is this idea that once
you get to know your ownwounding, your own brokenness,
your own stuff, then we canbegin to feel our feelings so
that we can have an intentionalresponse.
And and so another way to thinkabout it is like, I want the
emotions in the car, I justdon't want them in the driver's
(05:36):
seat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a good analogy.
It's really interesting thedifference between my husband
and I, because you know, wealways had this joke, like, he
doesn't have any stuff.
Like, you know, he had theperfect childhood.
You know, he like he's he nostuff, right?
But in reality, he does havestuff, but he also has this
(05:58):
really deep knowing that there'senough love.
So he doesn't have to protectall of his stuff.
He just, like you said, he has areally good relationship with
it.
Like he knows who he is, and healso knows that people are gonna
love him regardless.
Whereas when we first gotmarried, I was very protective
of my stuff.
(06:19):
I was a perfectionist, I had toput on the facade of perfection,
I had to make sure thateverybody liked me and that I
was doing everything to a veryhigh level because for me, I
wasn't sure that there wasenough love.
I felt like I had to walk aroundin the world earning my love.
And if I showed any cracks orany canyons or anything, people
(06:39):
were gonna withdraw love fromme.
And so that was like a big,beautiful metamorphosis for me
and thing that I learned in mymarriage is because my husband
loved me regardless.
I couldn't hide those thingsfrom him as hard as I tried.
And he just loved me throughthem.
And so my biggest hope andprayer for my children is I know
(07:00):
I'm certain we've made mistakesand we've screwed them up in all
different ways, but I hope thatthey never have to wonder
whether or not we love them orif there's enough love.
Like they can, they can be okayin all of their brokenness
because we love them, there'senough love in the world, they
don't have to earn it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Yeah, one of the interesting things that that
I've noticed as I've done moreand more of this work is that
there isn't a person in theworld who's willing to not
concede the idea that we live ina broken world.
So, in that brokenness, therecomes consequence of that.
The consequence is thiswounding.
And so, kind of one of theassert uh assertions I make in
(07:39):
the book is that somewherebetween the ages of four and
twelve, all of us experiencewhat what I call little tea
trauma, right?
And a lot of people who studythis kind of work use that term
little tea trauma.
And why it's little tea traumais that there was no malice,
there was no malintent, it'sjust it becomes the brokenness
(07:59):
of the world, and that becomesthe lens at which you look at
the world.
And so all of us have thisversion of little tea trauma,
and it shows up in various ways.
One of the tools that I give inthe book is very similar to what
you were talking about, it'scalled the emotional intensity
scale.
That anytime on a scale from oneto ten, your emotions spike
(08:20):
above a six, it's it's almostalways more about you than it is
the other person.
So, for example, if my wifecomes home and says something to
me about why I didn't put myclothes away, and the way she
says it causes me to go, ah, youknow, and have this big
emotional response.
(08:41):
Am I really mad at her?
Or is it really just bumping upagainst some old pain?
And the reality is, just likeyou were talking about, it's
that old pain.
And so what happens is that Ican't respond appropriately to
the situation because the painof my past is now dictating the
words that come out of my mouthand separating the one person
(09:03):
who I want to be walking with methrough this stuff.
And that's what I mean by notletting the emotions drive is
that if you can take a moment,feel your feelings, trace the
wound all the way back to whereit began, and realize I'm having
an emotional reaction to the waythis came out of her mouth, not
actually to her, and nor is ither fault.
Then we can have an actualdialogue if we need to about the
(09:27):
problem, or I could just put myclothes away.
Right?
Like it's one of those things,right?
Like just power down.
I gotta power down so that wecan actually dialogue.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
I love that.
And I love how you talk about itas the emotional intensity
scale, because that's reallytrue.
Because when you know, we getall out of sorts about
something, nine times out often, we're not responding to
what's right in front of us.
We're responding to right, thatold wounding.
And it's so true.
And if we can start to recognizeit, and like you said, power
down, you know, take a moment,take a breath, give some love to
(09:58):
that inner child, right?
That inner child that's comingout and trying to protect us,
trying to fix the situation,make it okay.
You know, if we can just say,look, I love you, it's fine, I
can deal with this in my wiseadult self, as opposed to that
six, seven, eight-year-old whowas like not able to handle the
emotional intensity of the past,right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
So what's what's crazy, Monica, is that it's not
just bad emotions, too.
Like it's also good emotions,right?
And so if my son, I have twoboys that both play football,
one of them picks six, takes itback to the house, and I go
full-blown Midwestern dad on thesidelines, and I start chest
bumping and screaming like I'mlosing my mind, they probably
(10:41):
bumped up against my wound aswell.
unknown (10:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Right.
And so I'm I'm having anemotional spike.
Now keep in mind, I'm notputting any judgment on that.
Like there's no there's no rightor wrong.
It's just the reality is that amI okay with the behavior that
the emotion is driving in thatmoment?
Because the emotion is driving,not my intentional response.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
And where we get into trouble, I think, in
relationships is we let ourmouth respond emotionally
instead of letting our brainpower down and think about this
intentionally, and that's wherewe get into trouble.
That's where grown adults getkicked out of soccer games.
That's where we just, you know,we see it all the time.
Like, are you really that upsetthat that 12-year-old umpire
(11:25):
didn't make that call the rightway?
Or is it really tied tosomething much deeper in your
own life?
Because that's that's true, andit happens unfortunately more
than I know we all want it to.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Yeah, it's so true.
Well, and the reality is thatinner child, because I talk
about it as your inner child,right?
That's responding, that's that'sdrive like all of a sudden that
your inner child, your littlefive-year-olds, jumped up on
your lap and like taking controlof everything, right?
They're always gonna be withyou, they're always gonna be in
the car with you.
Like it would be silly to thinkwe're just gonna wipe that all
(11:57):
out, take away all of ourtriggers, we're gonna heal off
all of our wounds completely.
No, it's always gonna be there,but it's just a matter of like
seeing seeing that little childand just being like, I love you,
I've got you, I've got this.
Like you can just climb in thecar seat, buckle yourself in,
and just chill because I've gotthis, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Oh, one of the things I say all the time on the
podcast is that if you aren'tdedicated to your disciplines,
you'll be destroyed by yourdistractions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Ooh.
I feel like you're like gotthese beautiful one-liners.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
I should well, I've just been doing it a long time.
But here's the reality (12:35):
nobody ever wakes up and says, Man,
today's the day that I want toruin my marriage.
Right?
Today's the day I want toalienate myself from my
children.
Oh, I'm thinking about gettingfired today, right?
Like we just don't do that veryoften.
But what happens is we we stopdoing the activities that keep
us in a healthy place.
Right.
So disciplines lead to freedom.
(12:57):
So, you know, here's what I knowin my marriage that if I want to
have the ability to respondintentionally to my wife, to
honor that inner child, to beaware of my wound, it starts
with me getting up and workingout.
It starts with me going on walkswith her, it starts with me
dating her, it starts with mepraying over her, it starts with
me doing all of the disciplinesthat I know keep me in a good
(13:21):
place.
Because if not, when somethingpops off, right, whether it's uh
her or me or mother-in-law orwhoever, then I'm not in a place
to handle it well.
And that inner child or thatemotion or that wounding then
jumps into the front seat andtakes us straight off the road.
(13:43):
And so, in my disciplines, in myintentionality, then what we get
is the gift of guardrails.
And those guardrails keep us inalignment with where our vision
and our mission and kind ofwhere we feel like we're being
called to respond to the world.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yeah, that's so good.
And I love what you're sayingbecause all of those things that
you mentioned, working out,praying, like doing those
things, that is what helps youfeel good about yourself.
Like you're giving yourself whatyou need, you're showing up in
integrity, you're doing thethings that you know are right,
and that helps you show up asthe best version of yourself,
right?
(14:22):
It's like when we don't do thosethings, you're right.
It's that we don't feel goodabout ourselves, we have less
control over our emotionalresponses because we're not
doing the things that help us bein integrity with what who we
know we are.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
Yeah, somewhere along the way, culture has kind
of perverted this idea aboutsacrifice.
Oh, I need to sacrifice for myspouse or I need to sacrifice
for my kids.
And there's probably moments inlife that are like that, that
there are seasons where it's,but it's brief seasons.
Sacrificial love should not bethe foundation of any
(14:59):
relationship that you're in.
It has to start with thatself-love, it has to start with
that understanding who you are,what you believe, your values.
And you know, Karen and I havebeen married for it'll be 23
years in February.
We have very different values,but our our our mission and our
vision for our family arealigned.
And so we operate kind ofdifferently, very differently.
(15:22):
I'm extroverted, she's a littlebit more introverted.
I'm the drama queen in ourmarriage where I just like have
big emotive kind of I need toverbally process everything.
And she's like the steady rock.
I'm kind of more theentrepreneur.
She's more like, maybe we shouldput this on a spreadsheet.
And I'm like, we just do it.
Like, let's just sell everythingand move.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Jump and build the parachute on the way down.
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
Uh and so I, you know, the the truth is that we
have to create those rhythmsthat keep us in a good place so
that our wounding doesn't takeover and put us in a position
that we ultimately don't want tobe in.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
I think it's hard because whenyou're you're speaking to women
and I agree with you, thesacrifice, the the compromise,
the, you know, when you askolder couples, you know, what's
the one thing that you tellyoung people about being married
or whatever, they'll say, learnhow to compromise.
And I always get so like, wait,what?
No, that's not right.
(16:16):
Because compromise means I givea little, you give a little, we
meet in the middle, neither ofus actually gets what we want.
And I just don't think that's agood basis or feeling like I've
sacrificed for 20 years, youknow, get you your career.
The the reality is, is it's canwe cooperate?
Can we make room in thismarriage for both of us to
(16:39):
actually become the bestversions of ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
That I just say this like I just want I just want
couples to be on the same team.
SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
Yes.
Let's just get on the same team.
And you don't have to be thesame.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
You can have very different players on the same
team.
That's 100% right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Exactly.
You're both trying to win, butyou've got offense, you've got
defense, you've got reallyimportant jobs that people I
think most couples don't oftenestablish what winning looks
like.
Well, right.
And also they become opponents,right?
If you have different values,different opinions, different
stances on things.
It's like now we're gonna gohead to head and see who wins,
(17:16):
or to see if I can convince youto think like me, or if I can
control, you know, the thenarrative, like right?
Like if you would just thinklike me, or if you would just do
it my way, we could be happy.
And now you you've pitted eachother against each other.
But instead, it's like, can I dothe, you know, can we work
together?
Can we cooperate?
Can we collaborate and come uptogether with something better
(17:39):
than either of us could have onour own?
But it's us against the problem.
You know, it's us and ourdifferent viewpoints and
perspectives against the thingthat's in front of us, not
against each other.
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Yeah, I think one of the things that uh we got some
really good wisdom from a colder couple in our life who
said, We, you know, we're justtrying to create a home that our
kids want to come back to.
Right.
And that's kind of our visionthat we're in right now.
And we've got a bunch ofteenagers, so things are wonky
here all the time, and it'semotional here all the time.
(18:12):
And, you know, we've got one atcollege and two uh, you know,
one in high school, one inmiddle school.
And so it's kind of just uhthat's a whirlwind.
So then our goal is like we talkabout those vision statements.
Hey, we want to create a homethat our kids want to come back
to, and then we have missionstatements for seasons, and so
we sit down and talk about that.
So, like, you know, right nowone of our seasons is one of our
(18:35):
family phrases is to take thetrip.
Like we're just in a seasonwhere we're taking the trip.
My yard looks like garbage, butwe're taking the trip, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
Because so important.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
We've just decided that this is what we're gonna do
in this season because we gotthis college-age kid who's
playing football up and down theeast coast, and we want to go
watch games, and so we're gonnago take the trip, and we're just
gonna travel and we're gonna doit, and we'll we'll deal with
what we have to deal with later.
But you know, we can't get thereif you don't do that inner work
first to say, what do I need inthis?
(19:05):
What does she need in this?
Because marriage really is justtwo wounded people bumping up
against each other's stuff allthe time, trying to figure out
how to process it well so thatyou know we can live happily
ever after.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
I agree with you.
I and I think that's so awesomebecause you used my my language
there, happily ever after.
But it's about having thecommunication skills to be able
to renegotiate in the differentseasons, right?
Because it's gonna lookdifferently.
Like when I had little tinychildren at home, I don't want
to be leaving and going to workand like doing all that stuff,
(19:37):
right?
But eventually when they got alittle bit older, I was like,
no, I mean, I want to be like asteady here, you know,
stay-at-home mom at thecrossroads.
Like when they get home fromschool, when they get home from
dates, when they, you know,leave for school, like I'm
always here.
But I also have this reallyfulfilling thing that I do while
(19:59):
they're at school.
And we've my husband and I havere had to renegotiate that many
times, right?
We owned a business together.
Then, you know, I pulled myselfout of the business, and at one
point I went back to school fora time, you know, and then we
sold the business, and now hehas, you know, kind of a
nine-to-fiver type situationgoing on.
(20:21):
We're constantly having torenegotiate how you can get what
you need and I get what I need.
We still have this common goalof providing this really steady,
loving, you know, presenthousehold for our children where
they love to be, and they'lldefinitely come back to, you
know, that's also our goal.
But what it looks like has to beconsistently renegotiated.
(20:46):
It can't be like, well, youknow, we got married.
I thought you were going to be astay-at-home mom, and that was
just gonna be it.
You know, now I'm superdisappointed because you've
changed the thing.
Like, no, it's like we'reconstantly different seasons and
stages and phases.
You have to be able tocommunicate to renegotiate.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
And one of the interesting parts about that too
is that as you're doing that,you begin to become more aware
of the of what I would call likethe edges of your wound.
So what bumps up against yourwound when your kids are little
is different than what bumps upagainst your wound when they're
in adolescence or you know,dealing with that eye roll from
that teenage daughter, or likeall of those things.
(21:24):
So it's it's constantly learningand then sharing.
Like, hey, babe, like, oh man, Ijust I don't know what it is
about our daughter in thisseason where she is just like
grading, or you know, it's it'sit's having the courage to say,
I don't have an answer, I justneed you to know this is kind of
what I'm feeling.
So protect me from ruining ourlarger vision, right?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
And so, you know, it's and it's those reminders of
like this is you know, this iswho who you wanted to be,
remember?
And I'm like, yes.
So it, you know, are thedecisions you're making right
now working against your goalsor are they working with them?
And how can I support you to,you know, achieve the things
that you have in your sights,but also remember, you know, you
(22:10):
know, what your real goals are,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
All of that's so important.
The thing about marriage that Iabsolutely love is you have a
mirror, like you have somebodywho's constantly aware of your
weaknesses, your shortcomings,like where you're, you know,
where you're maybe getting offthe trail, like, you know,
getting a little bit lost in theweeds, right?
(22:32):
And if you have a great trustingrelationship, you can help each
other, you can point each otherback in the right direction,
right?
But you have to be able to buildthat trust, like knowing that
your partner wants what's bestfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
One of the definitions that I give in the
book is this idea about grace.
So grace is empathy pluscuriosity.
And I think that's one of thethings that as couples, we can
always lean into is hey, whatdoes it mean to be empathetic
with your spouse right now?
What does it mean to be curious?
I think the closer someone is tous, the harder it is to be
(23:06):
curious about what's going oninside of them.
And so when your spouse comeshome or your kids come home and
they're in a place, then you canjust tell.
Like you can always tell whenyour spouse is in a place.
Karen comes home and she's in atizzy.
Uh, my response shouldn't be, ohman, I gotta hide, right?
Like I got a cat five going ondown here, right?
Like I just need to leave, likeI need to go.
(23:27):
Uh, dude, is that something inthe garage calling?
You know, and I know a lot ofguys do that.
The reality is, though, is thatthe wiser move is to be curious
and empathetic.
And that's what Grace lived outlooks like.
And if I can be curious aboutwhat's going on inside of my
wife, then in return, not onlyam I modeling what I need, but
(23:48):
I'm also creating a level ofintimacy that will just build
into our marriage.
It's like, hey, I I really docare about you and what you're
feeling in this moment.
I don't have to do anything withit.
Uh you know, we created a codeword.
I'm a big code word fan.
Like, I love code words too.
One one of ours is I I gotta,hey, I just need you to sit in
the mud puddle with me.
(24:10):
Which means like I just need I'mI'm about to go on a rant about
what happened.
And I just need you to sit inhere and just kind of hold my
hand, maybe tell me I'm gonna beokay.
Let's call that person namestogether or something, right?
Let's figure out what does itlook like to just sit in the mud
puddle with me so that I cancomplain and know that it's not
about you.
(24:30):
I don't need you to fix it, buthere we are.
And like those are the kind ofpractices that as you become
more aware of who you are, youcan do that at a out of you get
to the good stuff quicker, youknow, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Oh, I love it.
I just did that this morning.
Like, literally, I was so upsetabout something and I was like,
I'm gonna tell you this.
I don't want you to react to itbecause I know it's not
completely thought out, notlogical yet.
Like, I just I'm I'm just upsetand I need you to just listen,
right?
And like I can tell when myhusband's like gonna try to fix
it.
And I'm like, no, please do notgive me any advice or tell me
(25:08):
what I should be doing right nowbecause I have like I said, I
have not thought it all out yet.
I know a lot of it doesn't makesense and is not logical yet.
I'm still in my emotion aboutit, and I just need you to hear
me.
But I like I have thewherewithal and the
communication skills to be ableto ask for what I need.
Like instead of just letting himcorrect me or give his opinion
(25:32):
or whatever, like I know he'sabout to, and I'm like, nope,
I'm not ready for that.
Like maybe in a couple of daysI'll want to know what you
think.
But right now, I just need youto listen to me to figure it
out.
Like I'm processing through it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
It's one of the one of the things that I uh I think
so many couples could just be alittle bit more intentional
about practicing through some ofthat dialogue.
Right?
Like that that kind of thereason that you can do that well
is because you're practiced.
You've got lots of reps.
Yeah, right.
You got lots of reps talkingabout it, you got a lot of reps
doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:07):
And so But I also trust him.
Like I know what he's gonna say,I know what his opinion is.
And like I I'm like, I'm notready to hear it.
Like, I'm not ready, but I trustthat you can handle me out of
sorts.
Like I was out of sorts thismorning.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
Yeah, and I just need you to hold it with me so
that uh it doesn't feel asheavy.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
Exactly, exactly.
I knew that I could trust him tohandle me being out of sorts,
otherwise, I would have had togo, you know.
I could have called agirlfriend, which I did after he
left for work.
You know, like I I kind of I'mat the point where I kind of
know who who I trust to kind ofhold me when I'm out of sorts,
(26:49):
and that's okay, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
And then the best part about that is is that you
don't put any judgment or shameon it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
No, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
Judgment and shame tend to shut down intimacy, and
intimacy is one of the ways thatwe get to growth and healing.
And so, you know, I tell couplesall the time, like, hey, like
you're allowed to be out ofsorts, you're allowed to be
angry, you're allowed to be havethose, just don't don't let them
drive the decision.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I can ask him for what Ineeded.
Like, I need you to be thesteady rock, not the steady rock
with the solution, just thesteady rock to anchor me while I
kind of fly this way and flythat way and figure it out.
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
It's one of those hard balances to to to
understand what you need.
Um, it's why I'm such a big fanof like doing this kind of work
in community, having somepeople, you know, having some
people in your life who are whohave gone before you, whether
that be, you know, somebody likeyou or me, coaches, or those
kind of other areas that arelike, I just need to talk
(27:50):
through this.
And I maybe I've never been herebefore.
And I've got a whole list ofguys that I call when I'm like,
am I crazy?
Am I losing my mind?
You know, and and most of thetime they'll say yes and right.
And that's good.
That's what I want from afriend.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
Yeah, it's so good.
And and it's true.
I the reason why I think you andI do what we do is because P you
can't see the label from theinside of the bottle, right?
And so if you're being drivenaround by your five-year-old,
you can't always see that,right?
You need somebody to show you,like this is actually what's
happening.
And if you, you know, if you letyour five-year-old drive, these
(28:26):
are what the consequences are.
You're probably gonna get in acar accident, and both of you
will, you know, be badly hurt,right?
So it's like you you needsomebody to show you.
Like it kind of um, one of mymentors loves to say, you're
kind of like the the ghost ofChristmas future.
You're kind of showing them,like, listen, if you don't write
the ship, here's what's gonnahappen, and it's gonna be
(28:49):
painful.
So, you know, you've got to makethe choices today that are gonna
give you the tomorrow that youwant.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
It it takes a really long time to become an overnight
success.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you know, one of thebeautiful parts about that too
is that it also works for thepositive, right?
Is that on the other side ofyour wound is almost always your
greatest gift.
So that same thing that gets youout of sorts is the same thing
that makes you really gifted ina lot of different areas.
(29:17):
And so we also need our spousesto help us see our gifting and
be like, no, this is what you doreally well, and this is how you
crush it, and this is that sameidea.
It's like grace and truth.
The truth is, is like, yeah, youare emotional about this, but
you're awesome at this.
You know, my my wound is uh myparents had unplanned twins when
(29:37):
I was four years old, and so Iwent from being the youngest to
the middle.
And so, in my mind, the smalltea traumatic event that
happened was that I felt like Ididn't matter anymore.
And so I felt like I wasn'tseen, right?
So, what do I do?
Of course, I pick jobs that putme in front of microphones and
platforms and people, right?
Because I'm driven by that.
(29:59):
I I Know we are and so buthere's the unique ability,
right?
And I I would uh probably guessthat we both have it.
We have a unique ability to seepeople, yeah.
And so when some somebody sitsin front of me, like I can see
it now.
My wife, when my wife calls thatout in me, it comes with a
different level of truth becauseI naturally have my own doubt
(30:20):
that that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me, my little teawounding was was the love thing,
right?
And so I feel like my greateststrength is to be able to to
love the the people who feelunloved, right?
Like I hope that people feelloved by me, even when they're
not sure that there's enoughlove, because that is my
(30:45):
greatest wounding and mygreatest gift, right?
But like I'm aware of it.
And I feel very deeply whensomebody withdraws love from me.
Like that is still to this day.
That's when my five-year-oldcomes out and is like, what do I
need to do here?
Which heads do I need to bangtogether?
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
Well, and it goes back to what you said earlier
about your husband, right?
That's why you pick part of thereason why you picked him
because he's got so much lovethat you're never worried about
that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Yes.
And I'll never forget the timewhen he said, It's not in my
programming to walk away.
Because I I remember like themost vulnerable I got with him
is like, I'm just waiting forthe other shoe to drop.
I'm just waiting for you to go.
This girl is so crazy.
I can't do it.
I'm walking away.
And my husband's like, it's notin my programming to walk away.
Like, I don't walk away whenthings get hard.
(31:36):
And it was the greatest gift hecould have ever given me.
And now, 23 years later, I haveso much trust and faith in that.
Not that he can't walk away,absolutely.
At any moment he could walkaway, but that he has chosen
repeatedly not to.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
What a beautiful gift, right?
Like it's and it's every day,choosing all of those things,
uh, all the disciplines, allthat stuff.
That's how we stay in therelationship.
Like, I just firmly believe noone ever falls in and out of,
you know, we don't fall in andout of love, we fall in and out
of commitment.
And it's not commitment tomonogamy, right?
It's commitment to thedisciplines of building that
life together.
(32:13):
So it's like, oh, I'm just gonnablow off the date night, or I'm
gonna blow off physicalintimacy, or I'm gonna blow all
ah, we just don't need to dothat right now.
And then eventually after aseason of that, all of a sudden
you're in completely differentzip codes emotionally,
spiritually, physically,intimately, right?
Like all of those things justkind of pile on top of each
other.
And so, you know, if you want tobuild the life that you desire
(32:37):
with your spouse, you know, I II would argue that it it begins
with being really clear aboutwhat activities are gonna get
you there, like the processgoals, not the outcome goals.
SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
So good.
Tony, this has been so fun tohave this conversation with you.
Tell us how we can get the book,and then I want to give you the
opportunity to just like lay iton us.
Like, what is it that you thinkis so most important that we
should all know?
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
Uh, well, you can pick up the book on Amazon.com
or on my website,wisdominthewoundbook.com.
It's it's available whereverbooks are sold.
And so uh would be humbled andhonored if you read it.
And then I love your feedbacktoo.
So if you have thoughts, leave areview or shoot me an email,
tony at twmilt.com.
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Love it.
And then peace in the shownotes.
Yes, I want I want to hearwisdom.
What is the wisdom that comesfrom your wound that you feel
like is so important for us toknow?
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Yeah, let me just say this.
If you're listening to this andyou feel out of sorts today, if
you feel like you have a stringof days that are out of sorts,
wisdom isn't the absence ofwounding, it's the intimacy with
it.
And so let me just challenge youto take some time in solitude,
take some time intentionally, tocreate a life that has enough
(33:56):
space that gives you permissionto feel your feelings so that
you can show up and be theperson that you're called to be.
To be the spouse, to be theparent, to be the entrepreneur
and the leader, is that when youcreate space for all of the
things that are happening insideof you, the best things will
come as a result.
And that's my hope and my prayerfor you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Dear listener, I hope you've gotten a lot out of
this episode because I do feellike you were talking directly
to me just now.
So thank you, Tony.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for the work you do.
Thanks for being my friend.
And I hope that everyone gotwhat they needed out of this
episode because I know Icertainly did.
unknown (34:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm super excited about my
guest today.
He is a fellow author, and I amso excited to discuss his book
and dig into the concepts thatare so relevant to married
couples.
My guest today is TonyMiltenberger, but I usually just
(00:22):
say Milt because that's yourhandle, right?
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
Yeah, TW Milt.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
They don't usually have to say the whole thing
drawn out.
And he is a podcaster, anauthor, a friend, a content
creator, and just a superhuman.
And I am excited to discuss thisconcept of accepting and
learning about our ownbrokenness as well as our
partners and being able toaccept and love each other
(00:51):
through all of that.
He's the expert, and I cannotwait to hear what you have to
say.
Welcome, Tony, to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
Monica, it's so good to be on here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
You were have been on my podcasta couple times, and I just value
your content so much.
And uh I was a part of yourintimacy group not too long ago.
I think that's probably a coupleyears ago now, but uh you've
done so much to help mymarriage.
So I'm I'm so excited to be inthis dialogue with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Amazing.
First of all, tell me about thebook.
How did it like what inspiredit?
What made you want to writeabout this topic?
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Yeah, interestingly enough, it's not the book that
came out was not the book that Ihad originally thought I was
gonna write.
And so um during 2020, when theworld felt very shut down and uh
disjointed, my wife and I wereon many walks together.
And most couples that I knowwalked, and we love to walk
still, but we were doing twowalks a day during that time
(01:49):
period.
And there was a day in thatseason where I looked at my
wife, her name is Karen, and Ilooked at Karen and I said,
Babe, I've been here before.
And she was like, Yeah, we werehere this morning.
And I was like, No, no, no, notliterally, like emotionally,
I've been here before.
And I I had the privilege ofserving in the army for 14
(02:11):
years, the reserves, and duringthat time period, I was deployed
from 2004 to 2005.
And one of the things that Ibegan to realize is that
prolonged stress turns cracks inour lives into canyons.
And so prolonged stress is theany kind of stress that where
you don't know what's gonnahappen, you don't know the
(02:33):
outcome, right?
That season of 2020 was one ofthose seasons of prolonged
stress for the world.
Um, but I had also experiencedthat when I was deployed.
And there are seasons, you know,when your kids are toddlers,
like it's prolonged stress.
Like it's there's lots ofseasons in our life where
there's stress that just isaround and it has this ability
(02:55):
to take normal things in ourlife and blow them out of
proportion, kind of blow themup, right?
So cracks into canyons.
You can ignore a crack, you canstep over a crack, but you could
get lost in a canyon.
You could die in a canyon.
Yeah, you could fall off theedge.
Fall off the edge.
But one of the beautiful partsabout canyons is that you can
(03:17):
explore them in ways that youcan never explore cracks.
And so this book is really thematuration of that idea that
maybe maybe it's time for all ofus as husbands and wives to blow
up our cracks and to dive intoour canyons so that the scary
(03:39):
part of our insides don't get asmuch vote in how we live our
lives.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Oh, that was really deep, and I love the way you
said that because the realityis, is our cracks are so
vulnerable, our canyons are sovulnerable, and we expend so
much energy trying to protectourselves and other people from
them that they do really run ourlives.
Like they run, they wreak havocon our relationships, the
(04:06):
adaptation of trying to protect.
And I always say that it'sreally hard to have an intimate
friendship and a passionatepartnership when you can't share
all of yourself with yourspouse.
Cracks and all.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
One of the interesting things that happen
is that uh we're all emotionalpeople.
Like I've never met someonewho's not like, oh, I don't have
any emotions.
Now we emote differently.
I'm an extroverted, emotionalguy.
My wife tends to be a little bitmore refrained, a more uh
intentional kind of human.
And so here's the the truth,though, the wisest leaders that
(04:42):
I know, the people that seem tohave the greatest level of
intimacy, they don't have anabsence of wounding or pain, but
they have an intimacy with it sothat it doesn't scare them.
And so what I try to help peoplewith, couples specifically, is
to kind of challenge them that Idon't want you to have an
emotional reaction, I want youto have an intentional response.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Ooh, say that again.
That was really deep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
I don't want you to have an emotional reaction, I
want you to have an intentionalresponse.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And so the wisdom in the wound is this idea that once
you get to know your ownwounding, your own brokenness,
your own stuff, then we canbegin to feel our feelings so
that we can have an intentionalresponse.
And and so another way to thinkabout it is like, I want the
emotions in the car, I justdon't want them in the driver's
(05:36):
seat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a good analogy.
It's really interesting thedifference between my husband
and I, because you know, wealways had this joke, like, he
doesn't have any stuff.
Like, you know, he had theperfect childhood.
You know, he like he's he nostuff, right?
But in reality, he does havestuff, but he also has this
(05:58):
really deep knowing that there'senough love.
So he doesn't have to protectall of his stuff.
He just, like you said, he has areally good relationship with
it.
Like he knows who he is, and healso knows that people are gonna
love him regardless.
Whereas when we first gotmarried, I was very protective
of my stuff.
(06:19):
I was a perfectionist, I had toput on the facade of perfection,
I had to make sure thateverybody liked me and that I
was doing everything to a veryhigh level because for me, I
wasn't sure that there wasenough love.
I felt like I had to walk aroundin the world earning my love.
And if I showed any cracks orany canyons or anything, people
(06:39):
were gonna withdraw love fromme.
And so that was like a big,beautiful metamorphosis for me
and thing that I learned in mymarriage is because my husband
loved me regardless.
I couldn't hide those thingsfrom him as hard as I tried.
And he just loved me throughthem.
And so my biggest hope andprayer for my children is I know
(07:00):
I'm certain we've made mistakesand we've screwed them up in all
different ways, but I hope thatthey never have to wonder
whether or not we love them orif there's enough love.
Like they can, they can be okayin all of their brokenness
because we love them, there'senough love in the world, they
don't have to earn it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Yeah, one of the interesting things that that
I've noticed as I've done moreand more of this work is that
there isn't a person in theworld who's willing to not
concede the idea that we live ina broken world.
So, in that brokenness, therecomes consequence of that.
The consequence is thiswounding.
And so, kind of one of theassert uh assertions I make in
(07:39):
the book is that somewherebetween the ages of four and
twelve, all of us experiencewhat what I call little tea
trauma, right?
And a lot of people who studythis kind of work use that term
little tea trauma.
And why it's little tea traumais that there was no malice,
there was no malintent, it'sjust it becomes the brokenness
(07:59):
of the world, and that becomesthe lens at which you look at
the world.
And so all of us have thisversion of little tea trauma,
and it shows up in various ways.
One of the tools that I give inthe book is very similar to what
you were talking about, it'scalled the emotional intensity
scale.
That anytime on a scale from oneto ten, your emotions spike
(08:20):
above a six, it's it's almostalways more about you than it is
the other person.
So, for example, if my wifecomes home and says something to
me about why I didn't put myclothes away, and the way she
says it causes me to go, ah, youknow, and have this big
emotional response.
(08:41):
Am I really mad at her?
Or is it really just bumping upagainst some old pain?
And the reality is, just likeyou were talking about, it's
that old pain.
And so what happens is that Ican't respond appropriately to
the situation because the painof my past is now dictating the
words that come out of my mouthand separating the one person
(09:03):
who I want to be walking with methrough this stuff.
And that's what I mean by notletting the emotions drive is
that if you can take a moment,feel your feelings, trace the
wound all the way back to whereit began, and realize I'm having
an emotional reaction to the waythis came out of her mouth, not
actually to her, and nor is ither fault.
Then we can have an actualdialogue if we need to about the
(09:27):
problem, or I could just put myclothes away.
Right?
Like it's one of those things,right?
Like just power down.
I gotta power down so that wecan actually dialogue.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
I love that.
And I love how you talk about itas the emotional intensity
scale, because that's reallytrue.
Because when you know, we getall out of sorts about
something, nine times out often, we're not responding to
what's right in front of us.
We're responding to right, thatold wounding.
And it's so true.
And if we can start to recognizeit, and like you said, power
down, you know, take a moment,take a breath, give some love to
(09:58):
that inner child, right?
That inner child that's comingout and trying to protect us,
trying to fix the situation,make it okay.
You know, if we can just say,look, I love you, it's fine, I
can deal with this in my wiseadult self, as opposed to that
six, seven, eight-year-old whowas like not able to handle the
emotional intensity of the past,right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
So what's what's crazy, Monica, is that it's not
just bad emotions, too.
Like it's also good emotions,right?
And so if my son, I have twoboys that both play football,
one of them picks six, takes itback to the house, and I go
full-blown Midwestern dad on thesidelines, and I start chest
bumping and screaming like I'mlosing my mind, they probably
(10:41):
bumped up against my wound aswell.
unknown (10:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Right.
And so I'm I'm having anemotional spike.
Now keep in mind, I'm notputting any judgment on that.
Like there's no there's no rightor wrong.
It's just the reality is that amI okay with the behavior that
the emotion is driving in thatmoment?
Because the emotion is driving,not my intentional response.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
And where we get into trouble, I think, in
relationships is we let ourmouth respond emotionally
instead of letting our brainpower down and think about this
intentionally, and that's wherewe get into trouble.
That's where grown adults getkicked out of soccer games.
That's where we just, you know,we see it all the time.
Like, are you really that upsetthat that 12-year-old umpire
(11:25):
didn't make that call the rightway?
Or is it really tied tosomething much deeper in your
own life?
Because that's that's true, andit happens unfortunately more
than I know we all want it to.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Yeah, it's so true.
Well, and the reality is thatinner child, because I talk
about it as your inner child,right?
That's responding, that's that'sdrive like all of a sudden that
your inner child, your littlefive-year-olds, jumped up on
your lap and like taking controlof everything, right?
They're always gonna be withyou, they're always gonna be in
the car with you.
Like it would be silly to thinkwe're just gonna wipe that all
(11:57):
out, take away all of ourtriggers, we're gonna heal off
all of our wounds completely.
No, it's always gonna be there,but it's just a matter of like
seeing seeing that little childand just being like, I love you,
I've got you, I've got this.
Like you can just climb in thecar seat, buckle yourself in,
and just chill because I've gotthis, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Oh, one of the things I say all the time on the
podcast is that if you aren'tdedicated to your disciplines,
you'll be destroyed by yourdistractions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Ooh.
I feel like you're like gotthese beautiful one-liners.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
I should well, I've just been doing it a long time.
But here's the reality (12:35):
nobody ever wakes up and says, Man,
today's the day that I want toruin my marriage.
Right?
Today's the day I want toalienate myself from my
children.
Oh, I'm thinking about gettingfired today, right?
Like we just don't do that veryoften.
But what happens is we we stopdoing the activities that keep
us in a healthy place.
Right.
So disciplines lead to freedom.
(12:57):
So, you know, here's what I knowin my marriage that if I want to
have the ability to respondintentionally to my wife, to
honor that inner child, to beaware of my wound, it starts
with me getting up and workingout.
It starts with me going on walkswith her, it starts with me
dating her, it starts with mepraying over her, it starts with
me doing all of the disciplinesthat I know keep me in a good
(13:21):
place.
Because if not, when somethingpops off, right, whether it's uh
her or me or mother-in-law orwhoever, then I'm not in a place
to handle it well.
And that inner child or thatemotion or that wounding then
jumps into the front seat andtakes us straight off the road.
(13:43):
And so, in my disciplines, in myintentionality, then what we get
is the gift of guardrails.
And those guardrails keep us inalignment with where our vision
and our mission and kind ofwhere we feel like we're being
called to respond to the world.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yeah, that's so good.
And I love what you're sayingbecause all of those things that
you mentioned, working out,praying, like doing those
things, that is what helps youfeel good about yourself.
Like you're giving yourself whatyou need, you're showing up in
integrity, you're doing thethings that you know are right,
and that helps you show up asthe best version of yourself,
right?
(14:22):
It's like when we don't do thosethings, you're right.
It's that we don't feel goodabout ourselves, we have less
control over our emotionalresponses because we're not
doing the things that help us bein integrity with what who we
know we are.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
Yeah, somewhere along the way, culture has kind
of perverted this idea aboutsacrifice.
Oh, I need to sacrifice for myspouse or I need to sacrifice
for my kids.
And there's probably moments inlife that are like that, that
there are seasons where it's,but it's brief seasons.
Sacrificial love should not bethe foundation of any
(14:59):
relationship that you're in.
It has to start with thatself-love, it has to start with
that understanding who you are,what you believe, your values.
And you know, Karen and I havebeen married for it'll be 23
years in February.
We have very different values,but our our our mission and our
vision for our family arealigned.
And so we operate kind ofdifferently, very differently.
(15:22):
I'm extroverted, she's a littlebit more introverted.
I'm the drama queen in ourmarriage where I just like have
big emotive kind of I need toverbally process everything.
And she's like the steady rock.
I'm kind of more theentrepreneur.
She's more like, maybe we shouldput this on a spreadsheet.
And I'm like, we just do it.
Like, let's just sell everythingand move.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Jump and build the parachute on the way down.
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
Uh and so I, you know, the the truth is that we
have to create those rhythmsthat keep us in a good place so
that our wounding doesn't takeover and put us in a position
that we ultimately don't want tobe in.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
I think it's hard because whenyou're you're speaking to women
and I agree with you, thesacrifice, the the compromise,
the, you know, when you askolder couples, you know, what's
the one thing that you tellyoung people about being married
or whatever, they'll say, learnhow to compromise.
And I always get so like, wait,what?
No, that's not right.
(16:16):
Because compromise means I givea little, you give a little, we
meet in the middle, neither ofus actually gets what we want.
And I just don't think that's agood basis or feeling like I've
sacrificed for 20 years, youknow, get you your career.
The the reality is, is it's canwe cooperate?
Can we make room in thismarriage for both of us to
(16:39):
actually become the bestversions of ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
That I just say this like I just want I just want
couples to be on the same team.
SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
Yes.
Let's just get on the same team.
And you don't have to be thesame.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
You can have very different players on the same
team.
That's 100% right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Exactly.
You're both trying to win, butyou've got offense, you've got
defense, you've got reallyimportant jobs that people I
think most couples don't oftenestablish what winning looks
like.
Well, right.
And also they become opponents,right?
If you have different values,different opinions, different
stances on things.
It's like now we're gonna gohead to head and see who wins,
(17:16):
or to see if I can convince youto think like me, or if I can
control, you know, the thenarrative, like right?
Like if you would just thinklike me, or if you would just do
it my way, we could be happy.
And now you you've pitted eachother against each other.
But instead, it's like, can I dothe, you know, can we work
together?
Can we cooperate?
Can we collaborate and come uptogether with something better
(17:39):
than either of us could have onour own?
But it's us against the problem.
You know, it's us and ourdifferent viewpoints and
perspectives against the thingthat's in front of us, not
against each other.
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Yeah, I think one of the things that uh we got some
really good wisdom from a colder couple in our life who
said, We, you know, we're justtrying to create a home that our
kids want to come back to.
Right.
And that's kind of our visionthat we're in right now.
And we've got a bunch ofteenagers, so things are wonky
here all the time, and it'semotional here all the time.
(18:12):
And, you know, we've got one atcollege and two uh, you know,
one in high school, one inmiddle school.
And so it's kind of just uhthat's a whirlwind.
So then our goal is like we talkabout those vision statements.
Hey, we want to create a homethat our kids want to come back
to, and then we have missionstatements for seasons, and so
we sit down and talk about that.
So, like, you know, right nowone of our seasons is one of our
(18:35):
family phrases is to take thetrip.
Like we're just in a seasonwhere we're taking the trip.
My yard looks like garbage, butwe're taking the trip, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
Because so important.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
We've just decided that this is what we're gonna do
in this season because we gotthis college-age kid who's
playing football up and down theeast coast, and we want to go
watch games, and so we're gonnago take the trip, and we're just
gonna travel and we're gonna doit, and we'll we'll deal with
what we have to deal with later.
But you know, we can't get thereif you don't do that inner work
first to say, what do I need inthis?
(19:05):
What does she need in this?
Because marriage really is justtwo wounded people bumping up
against each other's stuff allthe time, trying to figure out
how to process it well so thatyou know we can live happily
ever after.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
I agree with you.
I and I think that's so awesomebecause you used my my language
there, happily ever after.
But it's about having thecommunication skills to be able
to renegotiate in the differentseasons, right?
Because it's gonna lookdifferently.
Like when I had little tinychildren at home, I don't want
to be leaving and going to workand like doing all that stuff,
(19:37):
right?
But eventually when they got alittle bit older, I was like,
no, I mean, I want to be like asteady here, you know,
stay-at-home mom at thecrossroads.
Like when they get home fromschool, when they get home from
dates, when they, you know,leave for school, like I'm
always here.
But I also have this reallyfulfilling thing that I do while
(19:59):
they're at school.
And we've my husband and I havere had to renegotiate that many
times, right?
We owned a business together.
Then, you know, I pulled myselfout of the business, and at one
point I went back to school fora time, you know, and then we
sold the business, and now hehas, you know, kind of a
nine-to-fiver type situationgoing on.
(20:21):
We're constantly having torenegotiate how you can get what
you need and I get what I need.
We still have this common goalof providing this really steady,
loving, you know, presenthousehold for our children where
they love to be, and they'lldefinitely come back to, you
know, that's also our goal.
But what it looks like has to beconsistently renegotiated.
(20:46):
It can't be like, well, youknow, we got married.
I thought you were going to be astay-at-home mom, and that was
just gonna be it.
You know, now I'm superdisappointed because you've
changed the thing.
Like, no, it's like we'reconstantly different seasons and
stages and phases.
You have to be able tocommunicate to renegotiate.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
And one of the interesting parts about that too
is that as you're doing that,you begin to become more aware
of the of what I would call likethe edges of your wound.
So what bumps up against yourwound when your kids are little
is different than what bumps upagainst your wound when they're
in adolescence or you know,dealing with that eye roll from
that teenage daughter, or likeall of those things.
(21:24):
So it's it's constantly learningand then sharing.
Like, hey, babe, like, oh man, Ijust I don't know what it is
about our daughter in thisseason where she is just like
grading, or you know, it's it'sit's having the courage to say,
I don't have an answer, I justneed you to know this is kind of
what I'm feeling.
So protect me from ruining ourlarger vision, right?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
And so, you know, it's and it's those reminders of
like this is you know, this iswho who you wanted to be,
remember?
And I'm like, yes.
So it, you know, are thedecisions you're making right
now working against your goalsor are they working with them?
And how can I support you to,you know, achieve the things
that you have in your sights,but also remember, you know, you
(22:10):
know, what your real goals are,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
All of that's so important.
The thing about marriage that Iabsolutely love is you have a
mirror, like you have somebodywho's constantly aware of your
weaknesses, your shortcomings,like where you're, you know,
where you're maybe getting offthe trail, like, you know,
getting a little bit lost in theweeds, right?
(22:32):
And if you have a great trustingrelationship, you can help each
other, you can point each otherback in the right direction,
right?
But you have to be able to buildthat trust, like knowing that
your partner wants what's bestfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
One of the definitions that I give in the
book is this idea about grace.
So grace is empathy pluscuriosity.
And I think that's one of thethings that as couples, we can
always lean into is hey, whatdoes it mean to be empathetic
with your spouse right now?
What does it mean to be curious?
I think the closer someone is tous, the harder it is to be
(23:06):
curious about what's going oninside of them.
And so when your spouse comeshome or your kids come home and
they're in a place, then you canjust tell.
Like you can always tell whenyour spouse is in a place.
Karen comes home and she's in atizzy.
Uh, my response shouldn't be, ohman, I gotta hide, right?
Like I got a cat five going ondown here, right?
Like I just need to leave, likeI need to go.
(23:27):
Uh, dude, is that something inthe garage calling?
You know, and I know a lot ofguys do that.
The reality is, though, is thatthe wiser move is to be curious
and empathetic.
And that's what Grace lived outlooks like.
And if I can be curious aboutwhat's going on inside of my
wife, then in return, not onlyam I modeling what I need, but
(23:48):
I'm also creating a level ofintimacy that will just build
into our marriage.
It's like, hey, I I really docare about you and what you're
feeling in this moment.
I don't have to do anything withit.
Uh you know, we created a codeword.
I'm a big code word fan.
Like, I love code words too.
One one of ours is I I gotta,hey, I just need you to sit in
the mud puddle with me.
(24:10):
Which means like I just need I'mI'm about to go on a rant about
what happened.
And I just need you to sit inhere and just kind of hold my
hand, maybe tell me I'm gonna beokay.
Let's call that person namestogether or something, right?
Let's figure out what does itlook like to just sit in the mud
puddle with me so that I cancomplain and know that it's not
about you.
(24:30):
I don't need you to fix it, buthere we are.
And like those are the kind ofpractices that as you become
more aware of who you are, youcan do that at a out of you get
to the good stuff quicker, youknow, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Oh, I love it.
I just did that this morning.
Like, literally, I was so upsetabout something and I was like,
I'm gonna tell you this.
I don't want you to react to itbecause I know it's not
completely thought out, notlogical yet.
Like, I just I'm I'm just upsetand I need you to just listen,
right?
And like I can tell when myhusband's like gonna try to fix
it.
And I'm like, no, please do notgive me any advice or tell me
(25:08):
what I should be doing right nowbecause I have like I said, I
have not thought it all out yet.
I know a lot of it doesn't makesense and is not logical yet.
I'm still in my emotion aboutit, and I just need you to hear
me.
But I like I have thewherewithal and the
communication skills to be ableto ask for what I need.
Like instead of just letting himcorrect me or give his opinion
(25:32):
or whatever, like I know he'sabout to, and I'm like, nope,
I'm not ready for that.
Like maybe in a couple of daysI'll want to know what you
think.
But right now, I just need youto listen to me to figure it
out.
Like I'm processing through it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
It's one of the one of the things that I uh I think
so many couples could just be alittle bit more intentional
about practicing through some ofthat dialogue.
Right?
Like that that kind of thereason that you can do that well
is because you're practiced.
You've got lots of reps.
Yeah, right.
You got lots of reps talkingabout it, you got a lot of reps
doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:07):
And so But I also trust him.
Like I know what he's gonna say,I know what his opinion is.
And like I I'm like, I'm notready to hear it.
Like, I'm not ready, but I trustthat you can handle me out of
sorts.
Like I was out of sorts thismorning.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
Yeah, and I just need you to hold it with me so
that uh it doesn't feel asheavy.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
Exactly, exactly.
I knew that I could trust him tohandle me being out of sorts,
otherwise, I would have had togo, you know.
I could have called agirlfriend, which I did after he
left for work.
You know, like I I kind of I'mat the point where I kind of
know who who I trust to kind ofhold me when I'm out of sorts,
(26:49):
and that's okay, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
And then the best part about that is is that you
don't put any judgment or shameon it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
No, right?
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
Judgment and shame tend to shut down intimacy, and
intimacy is one of the ways thatwe get to growth and healing.
And so, you know, I tell couplesall the time, like, hey, like
you're allowed to be out ofsorts, you're allowed to be
angry, you're allowed to be havethose, just don't don't let them
drive the decision.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I can ask him for what Ineeded.
Like, I need you to be thesteady rock, not the steady rock
with the solution, just thesteady rock to anchor me while I
kind of fly this way and flythat way and figure it out.
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
It's one of those hard balances to to to
understand what you need.
Um, it's why I'm such a big fanof like doing this kind of work
in community, having somepeople, you know, having some
people in your life who are whohave gone before you, whether
that be, you know, somebody likeyou or me, coaches, or those
kind of other areas that arelike, I just need to talk
(27:50):
through this.
And I maybe I've never been herebefore.
And I've got a whole list ofguys that I call when I'm like,
am I crazy?
Am I losing my mind?
You know, and and most of thetime they'll say yes and right.
And that's good.
That's what I want from afriend.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
Yeah, it's so good.
And and it's true.
I the reason why I think you andI do what we do is because P you
can't see the label from theinside of the bottle, right?
And so if you're being drivenaround by your five-year-old,
you can't always see that,right?
You need somebody to show you,like this is actually what's
happening.
And if you, you know, if you letyour five-year-old drive, these
(28:26):
are what the consequences are.
You're probably gonna get in acar accident, and both of you
will, you know, be badly hurt,right?
So it's like you you needsomebody to show you.
Like it kind of um, one of mymentors loves to say, you're
kind of like the the ghost ofChristmas future.
You're kind of showing them,like, listen, if you don't write
the ship, here's what's gonnahappen, and it's gonna be
(28:49):
painful.
So, you know, you've got to makethe choices today that are gonna
give you the tomorrow that youwant.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
It it takes a really long time to become an overnight
success.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you know, one of thebeautiful parts about that too
is that it also works for thepositive, right?
Is that on the other side ofyour wound is almost always your
greatest gift.
So that same thing that gets youout of sorts is the same thing
that makes you really gifted ina lot of different areas.
(29:17):
And so we also need our spousesto help us see our gifting and
be like, no, this is what you doreally well, and this is how you
crush it, and this is that sameidea.
It's like grace and truth.
The truth is, is like, yeah, youare emotional about this, but
you're awesome at this.
You know, my my wound is uh myparents had unplanned twins when
(29:37):
I was four years old, and so Iwent from being the youngest to
the middle.
And so, in my mind, the smalltea traumatic event that
happened was that I felt like Ididn't matter anymore.
And so I felt like I wasn'tseen, right?
So, what do I do?
Of course, I pick jobs that putme in front of microphones and
platforms and people, right?
Because I'm driven by that.
(29:59):
I I Know we are and so buthere's the unique ability,
right?
And I I would uh probably guessthat we both have it.
We have a unique ability to seepeople, yeah.
And so when some somebody sitsin front of me, like I can see
it now.
My wife, when my wife calls thatout in me, it comes with a
different level of truth becauseI naturally have my own doubt
(30:20):
that that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me, my little teawounding was was the love thing,
right?
And so I feel like my greateststrength is to be able to to
love the the people who feelunloved, right?
Like I hope that people feelloved by me, even when they're
not sure that there's enoughlove, because that is my
(30:45):
greatest wounding and mygreatest gift, right?
But like I'm aware of it.
And I feel very deeply whensomebody withdraws love from me.
Like that is still to this day.
That's when my five-year-oldcomes out and is like, what do I
need to do here?
Which heads do I need to bangtogether?
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
Well, and it goes back to what you said earlier
about your husband, right?
That's why you pick part of thereason why you picked him
because he's got so much lovethat you're never worried about
that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Yes.
And I'll never forget the timewhen he said, It's not in my
programming to walk away.
Because I I remember like themost vulnerable I got with him
is like, I'm just waiting forthe other shoe to drop.
I'm just waiting for you to go.
This girl is so crazy.
I can't do it.
I'm walking away.
And my husband's like, it's notin my programming to walk away.
Like, I don't walk away whenthings get hard.
(31:36):
And it was the greatest gift hecould have ever given me.
And now, 23 years later, I haveso much trust and faith in that.
Not that he can't walk away,absolutely.
At any moment he could walkaway, but that he has chosen
repeatedly not to.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
What a beautiful gift, right?
Like it's and it's every day,choosing all of those things,
uh, all the disciplines, allthat stuff.
That's how we stay in therelationship.
Like, I just firmly believe noone ever falls in and out of,
you know, we don't fall in andout of love, we fall in and out
of commitment.
And it's not commitment tomonogamy, right?
It's commitment to thedisciplines of building that
life together.
(32:13):
So it's like, oh, I'm just gonnablow off the date night, or I'm
gonna blow off physicalintimacy, or I'm gonna blow all
ah, we just don't need to dothat right now.
And then eventually after aseason of that, all of a sudden
you're in completely differentzip codes emotionally,
spiritually, physically,intimately, right?
Like all of those things justkind of pile on top of each
other.
And so, you know, if you want tobuild the life that you desire
(32:37):
with your spouse, you know, I II would argue that it it begins
with being really clear aboutwhat activities are gonna get
you there, like the processgoals, not the outcome goals.
SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
So good.
Tony, this has been so fun tohave this conversation with you.
Tell us how we can get the book,and then I want to give you the
opportunity to just like lay iton us.
Like, what is it that you thinkis so most important that we
should all know?
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
Uh, well, you can pick up the book on Amazon.com
or on my website,wisdominthewoundbook.com.
It's it's available whereverbooks are sold.
And so uh would be humbled andhonored if you read it.
And then I love your feedbacktoo.
So if you have thoughts, leave areview or shoot me an email,
tony at twmilt.com.
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Love it.
And then peace in the shownotes.
Yes, I want I want to hearwisdom.
What is the wisdom that comesfrom your wound that you feel
like is so important for us toknow?
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Yeah, let me just say this.
If you're listening to this andyou feel out of sorts today, if
you feel like you have a stringof days that are out of sorts,
wisdom isn't the absence ofwounding, it's the intimacy with
it.
And so let me just challenge youto take some time in solitude,
take some time intentionally, tocreate a life that has enough
(33:56):
space that gives you permissionto feel your feelings so that
you can show up and be theperson that you're called to be.
To be the spouse, to be theparent, to be the entrepreneur
and the leader, is that when youcreate space for all of the
things that are happening insideof you, the best things will
come as a result.
And that's my hope and my prayerfor you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Dear listener, I hope you've gotten a lot out of
this episode because I do feellike you were talking directly
to me just now.
So thank you, Tony.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for the work you do.
Thanks for being my friend.
And I hope that everyone gotwhat they needed out of this
episode because I know Icertainly did.
unknown (34:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Thank you.
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