July 22, 2025 • 39 mins
Hanna Kok shares her expertise on the surprising link between forgiveness and physical health, revealing why holding onto grudges causes hormonal imbalances and weakens the immune system. We explore the scientific evidence behind this connection and discuss a practical method for making forgiveness easier.
• When we hold grudges, our muscles tighten, restricting blood flow and nutrient delivery throughout the body
• Brain function decreases dramatically during conflict—the prefrontal cortex (responsible for wisdom and problem-solving) can switch off up to 85%
• Stress emotions attach to cell receptors, triggering responses that put cells in overdrive and eventually lead to health problems
• Different organs are sensitive to specific emotions—the liver responds to anger, lungs to grief, and the gut to feelings of abuse
• Unforgiveness reduces energy available for immune function, making us more susceptible to illness
• The forgiveness method includes identifying what triggered you, recognizing what it reveals about your own healing needs, and seeing the situation as an opportunity for growth
• Practical techniques for releasing unforgiveness include journaling, mirror work, and meditation
For more information on improving health through forgiveness, download Hannah's app at hannahcook.com or visit ithrive.zone
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and today I have a special guest
for you.
She is a new friend of mine,but when I learned about her
expertise I knew I needed toshare her with you.
Hannah Koch is a qualifiededucational kinesiologist,
allergy practitioner and medicalintuitive.
(00:21):
She speaks passionately aboutcreating health without diet or
lifestyle changes, revealing theoften overlooked link between
forgiveness and health, which iswhat I am so excited to talk
about today.
She works with womenexperiencing hormonal imbalances
, guiding them to restorewellbeing without medication,
hormones, surgery or lifestylechanges.
(00:43):
This is really exciting becauseI've always kind of had the
suspicion that unforgivenessaffects our health.
Like some of the people I'verun into in my life who tend to
hold onto grudges, who are justkind of naturally feel like the
world is against them or theyhave kind of a victim mentality.
(01:06):
I've noticed that they'renaturally unhealthy and, in kind
of the most interesting ways,they hold on to weight, they get
rashes, and so I have no proofof this theory of mine.
But when I got your email I wasso excited to explore this with
you.
Obviously, you have years ofexperience working with probably
(01:27):
women in particular, on healthand hormones, and so I really
want us to talk about this ideaof how unforgiveness can be
negatively affecting our health.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, well, it's my favorite topic, so I am very
grateful to be here with you andwith your audience, and I also
want to thank the audience forbeing here and taking time out
of your day to listen to whatI've got to say.
I really appreciate that.
Now people say well, how isthis linked?
Because normally when peoplehave health problems it is diet
(02:02):
changes, lifestyle changes,right.
But as Einstein said, youcannot solve a problem on the
same level as it was created.
You have to go somewhere else.
And if you deal with lifestyleand health food changes, then
you are not on the level thatyou can actually make a real
impact.
Because what happens?
(02:22):
Just think of it.
Think of something that youreally love.
Maybe you're in your favoriteholiday place with lovely people
.
I mean, you're starting tosmile, right, you feel relaxed.
I can see your face has changedcompletely.
Now I want you to think, justto make a really horrible
picture standing next to an opensewer and you smell what comes
(02:47):
past, exactly.
So let's scrap that one.
But I just become a little bitaware of not only your face
contracts, what else in yourbody contracted.
Your whole body gets tight,right?
So let's just go back to theholiday and then from there
build on the rest of the podcast.
But you can see how your bodyinstantaneously responds to your
(03:13):
thinking.
If you don't feel safe, yourbody starts to contract.
What influence has that on howthe body functions?
There are so many on differentlevels, so let me explain the
different layers, how the bodyis affected.
There are so many on differentlevels, so let me explain the
different layers.
How the body is affected.
By holding onto a grudge, as Isaid, the tightness of the
muscles.
This means that the blood flowto your organs and your whole
(03:36):
body is limited, it's inhibited.
That means that the nutrientscan't go to the cells, the
toxins cannot be removed soeasily, can't go to the cells,
the toxins cannot be removed soeasily.
They will still be removed, butit's like on a lower scale and
if that goes on for a long timeyou're going to have problems.
(03:56):
Then you also have that largeparts of the brain start to
switch off, because if you areangry and upset, it is because
you don't feel safe.
You don't feel happy and you'renot happy because you feel
unsafe.
Now the brain and the wholebody goes into survival mode and
of course it depends on how big.
(04:19):
The issue is that you'redealing with how life changing.
If it is a huge fight that youhad with your partner and you
may be going through an uglydivorce, that is, of course, way
worse than if you stand next tothat smelly sewer, right,
that's gone when you leave thatplace or forget about it.
(04:39):
But when you're going throughthat ugly divorce, first of all,
as I said, the brain, largeparts of the brain, switch off.
You know how you're left and aright brain person depending.
Say you're a right brain person, the left brain is off.
Now you don't have any or youlose to a large degree your
ability to see details.
You only see the big picture,you only see the drama.
You only if it's the other wayaround you see, only remember
(05:03):
the things that were said andyou don't remember the bigger
picture.
Depending on if you're left orright brain orientated, then you
have the prefrontal cortex.
Now, the prefrontal cortex iswhere your wisdom lies, your
problem solving capabilities andyour ability to feel compassion
, to put yourself in otherpeople's shoes.
(05:23):
These are the qualities youreally need to solve a problem
and that can switch off up to85%.
So, basically, you've got likea quarter of your brain left and
it's like driving around withthree flat tires and you wonder
why you're so ineffective.
So in that state it isextremely difficult to find a
(05:46):
good solution.
Even a compromise.
You can't even find that.
You're beyond that.
And we were talking a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I just I think about it in terms of
relationships.
You know, when we're triggeredby our partner our fight, flight
or flee response you know ouramygdala takes over and, yeah,
you're not coming up with anygood solutions.
You're not looking for any typeof connection, you're like in
self-preservation mode and it'sa completely different part of
(06:16):
your body that takes over, right?
I mean, your bodily functionsaren't even working the way
they're supposed to, becauseevery resource in your body is
going towards protect yourselffrom the danger.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Exactly, and the higher functioning is switched
off.
Yeah, and that's why we behavereally like Erotically.
Yeah, I say it politely, butreally we're not the way we want
to behave.
And then you look back.
We're not the way we want tobehave.
And then you look back and youthink did I do that?
How is that possible?
But it is possible because ofour survival mode.
(06:50):
But there are other things thathappen as well on a cellular
level.
When you are in that stressstate, your body starts to
produce stress hormones and thenyou also have that they are
raging through your bodyhormones.
And then you also have thatthey are raging through your
body and each cell has receptorson the cell membranes and they
(07:11):
even have receptors for specificemotions.
So the stomach is moresensitive to, and the liver may
be more sensitive to, anger,while the gut is more sensitive
to a sense of abuse.
And so each organ the lungs iswith grief, so each organ is
sensitive to particular emotions.
(07:33):
And when that emotion moleculebecause this lady can't think of
her name right now, but shewritten molecules of emotion.
So you have these emotionsfloating through your body, hook
on the cell membrane and thenwill trigger stress responses
within the cell, which basicallygoes in overdrive because it's
(07:55):
about self-preservation, andthen you're way more likely to
shorten the lifespan of thatcell if it's for a long period
of time, because you don'tautomatically release that again
.
It takes time, you have toprocess it, you have to let go
of the, you have to forgive ordo something so that your body
(08:17):
will release that molecule thatkeeps on triggering the cell and
that's why people get sick,because they have these triggers
on the cells.
That is now keeping their cellsin overdrive.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There's so many different directions.
I want to go with this, butit's really interesting,
fascinating to me.
My children are actually doingsomething really difficult this
summer.
They are selling solar door todoor in a different state.
So they're in Minnesota rightnow.
They're knocking door to doorand both of my kids, my son and
(08:52):
my daughter, have both gottenreally sick over the course of
the summer.
And my son got sick first.
He's newly married.
He's been married for a coupleof months and you know he's got
his wife and then my daughter,that plus the whole team that
he's kind of responsible for,and so he spent like two weeks
in bed and he doesn't really getsick very often.
(09:14):
But we were talking about itlater and he just, you know my
husband was like did, were youstressed, you know like, because
that stress I think lowers yourimmunity, right, because that
stress I think lowers yourimmunity right, and so it makes
it so much easier for thosecells to be attacked and
weakened and you get sick.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, because there's another layer, which I'm glad
you brought that up, aboutlowering the immune system.
That is, on the energydistribution through the body.
Because, say, you have 10 unitsof energy to spend for the day
and four of those units is whatyou maybe use for running your
life, your work, your family,etc.
(09:55):
And six units it'sapproximately 60% of your energy
goes to the maintenance and therunning of your body.
The brain, the nervous system,the immune system, digestive
system, all these hormonalsystems, all of these systems
need energy to function.
(10:16):
Now, first of all, if we feel wehave an external stressor, the
immune system will go out, willbe switched off, because now we
have to fight an external fight.
And that's what we saw happeningin COVID, because we were now
made to believe it was anexternal threat, because
everything was so dangerous andthat's why people, the immune
system, went down.
But in the case of your son nowhe is stressed and he's worried
(10:40):
for whatever reason, also thestress of having door to door,
not knowing these people, whatare they going to say and is he
going to be judged and whatever,and so there's a lot of stress
that takes up now, say, two ofthe units of energy.
He still needs four units torun his life, but now, as I said
(11:01):
, remember, the higher functionis out the window.
So doing the work takes a lotmore effort because
concentration is harder and allthese thoughts running through
your head makes it harder, andthen you have maybe only four
units left for the repair,restore and rejuvenate of the
body, and the immune system willbe one of those that will be
(11:21):
compromised and makes you moreprone than to getting sick.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So the other thing you broughtup when you were talking that I
definitely wanted to address isthis idea that when you're
feeling extreme emotions whichis what generally happens when
you're holding a grudge, whenyou don't forgive somebody I
mean, I can think of just asituation in my own life where I
felt, I would say, misjudged.
(11:48):
There was a woman in myneighborhood who was just
treating me awfully Right, andso I would have these intrusive
thoughts all the time, like whyis she being like this?
Why, you know, why is she sohorrible?
Like why can't I just get thisout of my head, right, and it
was.
It was sucking a lot of theenergy that I needed to do other
(12:09):
things in my life, like I'd betaking a shower, I'd be getting
ready for a podcast interview oryou know, about to work with a
client, and all of a sudden Iwould just be like, oh, I'd feel
these emotions surrounding thissituation that I couldn't
control, and so I had to processthat, I had to let go of it and
forgive, right, so now she cando whatever she wants and I am
(12:29):
not affected by it anymore,because I've really processed
those emotions, I've forgiven,I've journaled about it.
You know I've done all thethings necessary to kind of
process those emotions out, andso now I'm not affected by it.
But I can imagine how, if youchose to hold on to that, if you
don't forgive, if you don'tknow how to process those
(12:51):
emotions really well, how it canjust deteriorate your health.
Like they say, unforgiveness islike drinking poison and
expecting the other person todie.
And that's such a real visualto me, because when you're not
forgiving someone, it's likeyou're literally drinking poison
and that other person iscompletely unaffected.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, they might be a little bit affected, but the
funny thing is we often.
Well, why do people not forgive?
Is a question to ask.
Why don't they forgive?
Different reasons, first of all, some think I'm punishing you
by not by withholding myforgiveness.
I'm punishing you.
You couldn't care less.
Maybe maybe you do, but maybeyou don't.
It often happens that you'restill stuck and the other person
(13:34):
has got on with their lives andforgotten all about the
incident, not even realizing,maybe, that they stepped on your
toes the way they did.
Yeah, but there's also a lot ofpeople don't want to forgive
because they feel it is a way ofprotecting themselves, it's a
way of preventing it fromhappening again, because if I
don't forgive, I will not forget.
(13:55):
But you can forgive and notforget.
I'm sure you're aware of it.
Forgiveness does not mean thatwe have to let other people back
into our life.
It doesn't mean that we condonethe behavior not at all but it
is about setting ourselves free.
But I teach a way offorgiveness that makes
forgiveness a no-brainer.
(14:16):
It makes it super easy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, I know you love to learn that method.
Yes, and one thing I'll pointout, just like why this is so
important to like listen inright now, like take notes, like
learn this method is because Ihave found in my life like the
process of forgiveness and I'vehad there's been lots of people
in my life, I've had theopportunity to forgive, but you
(14:40):
really can feel it in your body,on a cellular level, like
you're talking about, like beingable to just release the pain,
release the unforgiveness,release the anger and all of the
emotions surrounding whateveryou need to forgive.
You really can feel it in yourbody.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, but the method I am suggesting don't do it
while you're still super angry,because if anybody suggests to
do it when you're really angry,they'll clap you, they'll hit
you because it's so like I don'twant to hear it right now.
So the method that I'm sayingis first make sure you calm down
, take a few deep breaths andlet it subside a bit until
(15:21):
you're ready to say OK, let medeal with this, because if I
don't deal with it, it's goingto consume me, right?
So the first few questions areeasy to answer.
I first always ask a personimagine in a few years time,
where would you like to be?
You maybe have some ideas, youknow, maybe with your business,
certain amount of growth.
(15:42):
Shall we do this with you?
You don't have to share youranswers, you don't have to be
personal, but it's always niceto work with a real example.
Yeah, I'm an open book, let'sgo Right.
So imagine in a few years timewhere would you like to be?
And it can be specific, like Iwant to have so many followers
on my podcast and this andbusiness, and or it can just be
(16:05):
like well, you know, I want tofeel healthy.
And it can be vague, it can be.
It's not.
Goal setting has to be preciseand everything just an
impression.
Where do you want to be?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
yeah, I would say in a few years I would like to be
known for my book that's comingout bad marriage advice and be
able to just kind of walkthrough the world freely,
knowing that I am not foreveryone, like not everyone is
going to agree with all of thethings I teach and talk about,
but that's okay and that I'mshowing up every day for the
(16:36):
people who could potentially behelped by my work.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Okay Now what qualities do you admire in
someone?
And it's not putting them on apedestal, it's just identifying
what is the quality that theyhave.
And let's name just one, fortime's sake.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I really admire people that when you're around
them, you just know that theyradiate love around them.
You just know that they radiatelove, that they're intentional
about their actions and whateverthey're saying, even if it's
something that's difficult tosay, that they do the right
thing out of love for you andthe people around them.
(17:20):
I think that's such an admiralquality because sometimes that
requires doing very difficultthings or having very difficult
conversations or, you know,teaching a hard truth, but they
do it and you know they're doingit out of love Right.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And maybe this is something I must ask your
listeners in case you cannotanswer it.
But you know, monica, how manyof that quality do you have
already?
How good are you at addressinga difficult topic with love,
radiating love.
How good are you at that?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, I hope that the answer is getting there.
I mean, I work towards itdefinitely, so you know how much
of it is actually, you know,come to fruition, I don't know,
but I know that I work on it alot and how good are you towards
yourself with that.
I think I'm pretty forgiving ofmyself, actually, because I know
(18:14):
that I make mistakes, I knowthat I changed my mind.
I know that I'm not the sameperson.
You know that I was 10 yearsago, five years ago, five
minutes ago, right Like thisconversation here has helped me
grow in ways that you know, bigand small.
So I think that I think I runon the assumption that when I
know better, I do better, andI'm always looking to learn more
(18:37):
, so I don't beat myself up forpast versions of myself.
I tried to just say you knowwhat, you did the best that you
could with what you had, and nowyou have more and so you do
better.
And this actually saying thatout loud just made me realize
that that has been the basis ofme being able to forgive anyone
(18:59):
and everyone in my life, like myparents, old friends, you know,
my husband, my children.
I realized that everybody's onthis constant process of
evolution and I'm certain thatpeople are doing the best they
can with what they have.
Some people have more and somepeople have less right.
So, like you know my parents,they weren't perfect, but they
(19:22):
tried and they did the best theycould with what they had, and
so I'm fine you know what I'msaying Like they didn't stunt my
growth in any way, like theydid the best they could, and you
know my goal is to to buildupon what they were they gave me
and, you know, do better withwhat I have.
(19:45):
So, um, I I think that's justthe process of growing and being
a human and doing the best youcan, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Now, that quality of radiating love and sometimes it
can just be that you sit and youjust radiate love into the
world, into whoever you'remeeting and how much is that
quality going to assist you toget with you, with being
confident in yourself, where you, you know, knowing you have
(20:15):
your market and you're not foreverybody, and how much is that
quality of that acceptance andlove towards yourself and others
going to help you?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I mean so much.
I was just talking with afriend yesterday about you know
people.
People's opinions, people'sperceptions, people's judgments
have so much more to do withthem than it does for you.
So, yes, I put very sensitivetopics and you know personal
(20:45):
things about me online.
We're talking about somethingpretty personal right now and
you know personal things aboutme online.
We're talking about somethingpretty personal right now and
you know people can decide tofeel however they want about
that.
That doesn't say a lot about me.
It says more about them.
And so I just kind of let them.
I love promoting Mel Robbins newbook.
Let them, because I do try tolive my life that way, like I.
(21:06):
Just people can think or feelhowever they want.
That's really none of mybusiness.
I just have to let them and Ikeep keep doing what I know to
be true.
And if I'm on the wrong trackand somebody wants to give me
feedback, I have good boundariesand I'm definitely open to that
feedback.
But I also understand thattheir thoughts and opinions
(21:30):
about me are there.
It's about them.
It's about them and it's kindof their stuff to figure out.
But if people want to give mefeedback, I'm happy to consider
it too.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Okay, now comes the harder questions, these two
questions where people arealways very happy to answer.
The third and last part of thisis think of that irritating
behavior that you see insomebody, that maybe that
neighbor, that was difficult foryou to process.
What was it about her?
(22:04):
And if it's not about her,because, as we said earlier,
it's all about ourselves and ourperspective so what qualities
did you see in her thattriggered your emotions?
Yeah you know yourinterpretation of her behavior.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So really I mean, yes , I realized that it's that we
all act on the stories that wetell ourselves about other
people and basically what shedid was remove herself
completely from my life.
She didn't want me to talk toher, she didn't, you know, and
we were really good friends.
We were very, very close, weshared a lot of experiences and
(22:42):
you know, we were together a lot, knew all about each other, all
of those things Right.
And then all of a sudden shejust went cold, didn't want
anything to do with me andreally it was that unforgiveness
.
I mean, I'm a relationshipexpert and so my, my thing is
talking about feelings andemotions and what happened and
how can we make this better?
(23:03):
And you know it's it's repair.
And I know we make this better.
And you know it's it's repair.
And I know, as has been myexperience and with myself and
all of the couples that I workwith, that strength and
resilience comes in that repairprocess.
And so for her to not bewilling to participate in that,
(23:24):
you know, like let's just have aconversation about it.
I'm not hard to talk to, right?
Like I'm pretty easy to talk to, I'm pretty skilled in that
area and so for her to just dropme like I meant nothing to her
and ghost you, yeah, yeah, yeah,she definitely ghosted me right
, and so for her to be able tojust turn off like our
(23:45):
friendship means nothing.
You know, I'm not going to havethis uncomfortable conversation.
I'm not going to forgive you,I'm not going to, you know,
allow this to repair or whatever.
Yeah, I don't operate like that.
So it's just really difficultfor me to accept, like okay, I
guess the friendship is over andwe're going to pretend like we
(24:06):
don't know each other.
Like that's just super odd forme right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So now the harder question is then well, there's
two ways we can ask the question.
First of all, you can check isthere any topic in your life,
any area in your life whereyou're not willing to talk about
with yourself, that you'restruggling to address?
You know it can be.
Let me give a little example.
(24:35):
So like I was irritated withnegative people and then I
thought, well, I'm not negative.
And then I realized, oh, butI'm negative about this part in
my business or I'm negativeabout this relationship.
This little piece, it can be apocket, doesn't have to be a big
thing.
And the other thing is you canalso ask yourself otherwise.
Pretend you could give heradvice, pretend you know you're
(24:58):
not going to talk to her.
What advice would you havegiven her?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, well, I mean, at this point, it's been years,
and so the advice I'd give heris like, move on.
Right, like you've isolatedyourself by by uh, you know
cutting off any friendship whereanybody did anything that you
deemed not acceptable.
Right, and so to me is we'reall humans, we all make mistakes
(25:26):
.
Like if, if I've hurt you oryou know done something that you
didn't like, let's talk aboutit.
Right, like at this point, likeI said, I I feel like I have
gone through the process offorgiveness and I feel sad for
her.
Like, like you know, you'reyou're isolating yourself,
you're you're cutting yourselfoff from from friendships that
(25:48):
are super healthy, and you know,I like I just would say that's,
that's a hard way to live yourlife.
You know you're going to wakeup one day and be like I don't
have any friends, but this is myown fault, and so I just I do
feel sad for her.
So the advice I would give islike, put yourself out there,
(26:09):
like, have the uncomfortableconversation, like, give people
a break.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Your pride.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, I feel like for me it's like give me a break,
like you know, in my situationbut I know there's lots of
others that she's treated thesame way but for me it's like
give me a break, like if, if, ifI did something wrong, like
give me a break, like, like,like, confront me about it, like
let's talk about it, like Iwant to hear your feelings about
(26:36):
it, but you just ghosting meand cutting me off is not doing
anything for anyone.
So, you know, I'm not perfect.
I don't claim to be perfect.
I will apologize for my part inwhatever it is, but we can't
move forward unless you just,you know, talk to me.
So, and I've said and there'smultiple people who are kind of
(26:56):
in the same scenario and we'reall like if she just knocked on
our door and said, hey, I'mpissed about this, this and this
, I'd be like cool, come in,let's chat.
You know, but she never will,you know, I don't think she ever
will and it's really, reallysad.
She removed herself now from somany friendships that I mean I
(27:18):
don't know what she's up to.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, now that you say this happened already quite
a few years ago, so you havegrown a lot since then, yeah, so
let's look at how you were then, um, because then you can see.
Well, maybe, how did you havein that time of your life, maybe
a tendency to withdraw insteadof communicating?
(27:43):
Um, how much do you have maybein your own life an area that,
as I said, you're not willing todiscuss?
You just like encapsulate itand keep it aside and a closed
thing.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
so I think back then I, it felt abandoning to me,
like her ghosting me and you,you know it, it did trigger my
abandonment wounds, like howcould she do this to me?
Like, I think, trigger a lot ofthat, and now I can just be
like, oh well, you know, that'sreally sad that that friendship
(28:17):
is not there anymore.
But it really doesn't have alot to do with me, cause I'm
open, you know, and I'm an openbook and you know I'd love to
hear the feedback of you.
Know I wouldn't say I didn't doanything wrong, but at this
point I'm like I mean, I can'tfix what I'm not aware of.
So if you're not willing toshare with me what I did then
(28:41):
exactly, but you said somethingvery important.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
She triggered your abandonment wounds right and
working through your emotions.
How much did that help you torelease some of those
abandonment wounds?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, I mean it's been so helpful.
Like I said, I can feel that inmy body.
I can, you know, especiallywith my husband, I can tell.
He can now tell, because I havevery physical signs when I'm
feeling abandoned or wounded.
(29:16):
And so we have come up with nowthe two of us have come up with
cool phrases like I choose youor I'm not going anywhere, or
you know things that he canphysically do or say that helps
calm my nervous system, like Iknow it's up to me but I want to
take it a step further.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
This is what I say to my clients teach my clients to
do, because when there areabandonment issues, there is
self-abandonment, and so what Ido is when I feel like stressed
or that abandonment is triggered, I say you know what?
No matter what happened there,I still love me and I still
(30:01):
support me, Because thatself-confirmation, that
self-nurturing is so powerfuland it's wonderful if you have a
partner that can do that foryou.
But can you imagine if youcould stand by yourself like
that whenever your abandonmentis triggered?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
You're right, it's so powerful and ultimately it is
up to me.
It's up to me to reparent thatlittle child inside of me that
gets really scared that thepeople who love her are going to
abandon her, and that is partof the conversation I have with
her.
Monica, I am here.
I am not going anywhere, youwill never have to be alone.
And so that's big adult Monicatalking to little scared Monica.
(30:47):
Big adult Monica talking tolittle scared Monica.
But it is wonderful to havebeen able to be able to
communicate that to my husbandand have him participate in that
process to know that littlescared Monica comes out and he,
you know, can be super helpfulby saying things like I'm not
going anywhere, I choose you,you know we're in this together.
(31:09):
That is so affirming and I'm soappreciative of him.
But ultimately, I do know thatthat is my job.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Right now.
She basically made you awareagain because you probably were
aware of it, but on anotherlevel of the abandonment, and
she managed to give you anopportunity to let go of some of
your abandonment issues.
Yes, and for that I should begrateful, exactly Because when
(31:38):
you release those abandonmentissues, how is that going to
help you to reach your goalswhere you want to go?
Yeah, when people say you'renot for me, yes, you're not my,
you know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yes, yes.
So this is interesting becauseit does get a little bit
religious or spiritual, but I dobelieve that Jesus came here to
teach us how to love people whoare hard to love, how to love
people who are hard to love.
And so, yes, this particularwoman gave me the opportunity to
figure out how to love someonewho, for me, is very hard to
(32:15):
love.
So I did, I had to let go ofall of it and I had to say you
know what?
I love her, even though youknow she did give me a very nice
opportunity to re-explore myabandonment issues.
But you know, wherever she isand whatever she's doing, I I
love her and I wish her the bestand I hope that she does at
(32:39):
some point learn how to forgive,because it is really it's.
It's destructive, probably toher health, right, I mean that's
why we started this podcast,and so I'm not going to let it
affect my health Like I am likenope, I care too much about my
(33:00):
health mentally and physicallyto let this just fester inside
of me.
But I do wish the best for herand I hope that she gets to a
place where she can understandthat as well.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I totally agree with you.
Now, as you brought Jesus up, Ihave a quote that I like to
live by, and this is basicallythe principle that I was sharing
here with you is you know,don't try to remove the speck
from somebody else's eye.
Remove the beam from your owneye first, and so, when you
(33:36):
realize, oh, she's triggering myabandonment issues, let me work
through my abandonment issues.
Thank you so much, because thisis what I need to let go of so
I can reach my goals.
Now forgiveness becomes ano-brainer because you received
gold, and then the forgivenessis especially towards self.
(33:56):
To still be with abandonment,needing her to reflect back to
you that you still haveabandonment issues, and
forgiving her a little bit,that's easy because she's just
given you gold.
So that's how I do theforgiveness.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, I love that.
It's so beautiful and it's sotrue.
I mean, all of what you justsaid is, you know, remove the
beam from our own eye because,in reality and this is what's
really hard, I think, for mostpeople is that that's all we can
control.
Anyways, I can't control thespeck in her eye or whatever.
(34:34):
It is right.
I can only work with myself andhow I'm viewing the situation.
Ultimately, the story, I'mgoing to tell about it, right,
like I I'm sure in the processof us speaking right now, I said
a few things wrong or you knowwhatever, and that's okay,
because I know that I can onlywork on myself.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And it's also okay to sometimes be really angry with
somebody or really upset withsomebody.
It's a starting point and it'sso important to acknowledge how
we feel, that we are upset andhurt and we want to punch
somebody in the face.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
that is that happens sometimes and it's okay, we
don't act on it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, you know, as long as we don't go and punch
somebody in the face, we canpunch a pillow if we have to,
but to acknowledge how you feelis such an important step.
And then I mean you havetechniques, breathing techniques
, or I like a process of holdingthese emotional stress release
points on your forehead, tapping.
(35:40):
It doesn't matter what you use.
I was talking to somebody today.
He says well, he likes to prayand hand it over.
I said and he thought he wasstarting now a serious, you know
almost a debate.
I said I don't care how you letgo, as long as you let go of it
.
He says that was a good answer.
You know, it is about lettinggo and it doesn't matter if you
(36:01):
do it by standing on your heador tapping or whatever what
works for you, as long as youlet it go.
And then you can analyze it andlearn from it and say thank you
very much for what you've givenme and move on.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I love this discussion and so I want to kind
of wrap it up by giving thelisteners a couple of ideas of
how to just release.
You know, kind of look atyourself, like if you're seeing
manifestations of unforgivenessin your health.
What are a few things Like I'llI'll tell you.
For me, it's really helpful tojournal about it and like just
(36:38):
knowing that nobody's ever goingto see it, even if I write out
all my thoughts about it andthen rip it up and burn it or
throw it away, whatever I needto do.
But it really helps to kind ofsee my thoughts about it,
because when I'm, you know, whenthey get stuck in my brain, I'm
thinking about in the shower orI'm just it's kind of like on a
loop until I put it down onpaper and I'm like, okay, all,
(37:00):
right, now I can work with this.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, no, I agree with you there.
I personally, I do agree thatyou need to make time to sit
with it.
Yes, so doing it in the shower,letting the feeling diffuse,
(37:28):
and then, if I'm upset withsomebody else, I'll do this
mirror work, and then that's myway of dealing with it and
forgiveness myself and others,but especially myself, for
needing that mirror.
That's how I process it and howdo I know I need it If I don't
feel good if.
I'm unhappy.
Yeah, if you can't sleep atnight, that's the first
(37:55):
indication that something isbugging you and your brain is
giving you extra time to figureit out.
So not being able to sleep canbe a good sign that there's
something troubling you, andrather get up and ask and
explore what is keeping me awake, because once you've processed
it, you'll sleep like a baby.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
So good.
Another great option is workingwith somebody like you or me to
help you verbally process andkind of work through whatever
emotions are coming up for youthe unforgiveness.
You know, the story that we'retelling ourselves about it.
Hannah, this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(38:33):
Will you tell the listeners howto find you work with you?
I know you have an app.
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yes.
So if you go to hannahcockcom,you'll get either access to my
app or the meditation that Ihave, and if the meditation is
there, you probably also get theapp as well as a second option
to choose and then you'll be onmy mailing list and you'll have
immediate access to me as well.
But you can also go toithrivezone Great app for
(39:03):
improving health and especiallyhormonal health, but there are
other subjects there as well.
But especially if you're nowstruggling with physical health
complaints that you either don'twant to use traditional
medicine or you want to dosomething on the side with it
complimentary, or you've triedit and it's not working for you,
then please contact me, becauseI love working with getting to
(39:27):
the root cause of your physicalhealth problems and especially
your hormonal health problems.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Thank you so much and we'll talk to you again soon.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and today I have a special guest
for you.
She is a new friend of mine,but when I learned about her
expertise I knew I needed toshare her with you.
Hannah Koch is a qualifiededucational kinesiologist,
allergy practitioner and medicalintuitive.
(00:21):
She speaks passionately aboutcreating health without diet or
lifestyle changes, revealing theoften overlooked link between
forgiveness and health, which iswhat I am so excited to talk
about today.
She works with womenexperiencing hormonal imbalances
, guiding them to restorewellbeing without medication,
hormones, surgery or lifestylechanges.
(00:43):
This is really exciting becauseI've always kind of had the
suspicion that unforgivenessaffects our health.
Like some of the people I'verun into in my life who tend to
hold onto grudges, who are justkind of naturally feel like the
world is against them or theyhave kind of a victim mentality.
(01:06):
I've noticed that they'renaturally unhealthy and, in kind
of the most interesting ways,they hold on to weight, they get
rashes, and so I have no proofof this theory of mine.
But when I got your email I wasso excited to explore this with
you.
Obviously, you have years ofexperience working with probably
(01:27):
women in particular, on healthand hormones, and so I really
want us to talk about this ideaof how unforgiveness can be
negatively affecting our health.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, well, it's my favorite topic, so I am very
grateful to be here with you andwith your audience, and I also
want to thank the audience forbeing here and taking time out
of your day to listen to whatI've got to say.
I really appreciate that.
Now people say well, how isthis linked?
Because normally when peoplehave health problems it is diet
(02:02):
changes, lifestyle changes,right.
But as Einstein said, youcannot solve a problem on the
same level as it was created.
You have to go somewhere else.
And if you deal with lifestyleand health food changes, then
you are not on the level thatyou can actually make a real
impact.
Because what happens?
(02:22):
Just think of it.
Think of something that youreally love.
Maybe you're in your favoriteholiday place with lovely people
.
I mean, you're starting tosmile, right, you feel relaxed.
I can see your face has changedcompletely.
Now I want you to think, justto make a really horrible
picture standing next to an opensewer and you smell what comes
(02:47):
past, exactly.
So let's scrap that one.
But I just become a little bitaware of not only your face
contracts, what else in yourbody contracted.
Your whole body gets tight,right?
So let's just go back to theholiday and then from there
build on the rest of the podcast.
But you can see how your bodyinstantaneously responds to your
(03:13):
thinking.
If you don't feel safe, yourbody starts to contract.
What influence has that on howthe body functions?
There are so many on differentlevels, so let me explain the
different layers, how the bodyis affected.
There are so many on differentlevels, so let me explain the
different layers.
How the body is affected.
By holding onto a grudge, as Isaid, the tightness of the
muscles.
This means that the blood flowto your organs and your whole
(03:36):
body is limited, it's inhibited.
That means that the nutrientscan't go to the cells, the
toxins cannot be removed soeasily, can't go to the cells,
the toxins cannot be removed soeasily.
They will still be removed, butit's like on a lower scale and
if that goes on for a long timeyou're going to have problems.
(03:56):
Then you also have that largeparts of the brain start to
switch off, because if you areangry and upset, it is because
you don't feel safe.
You don't feel happy and you'renot happy because you feel
unsafe.
Now the brain and the wholebody goes into survival mode and
of course it depends on how big.
(04:19):
The issue is that you'redealing with how life changing.
If it is a huge fight that youhad with your partner and you
may be going through an uglydivorce, that is, of course, way
worse than if you stand next tothat smelly sewer, right,
that's gone when you leave thatplace or forget about it.
(04:39):
But when you're going throughthat ugly divorce, first of all,
as I said, the brain, largeparts of the brain, switch off.
You know how you're left and aright brain person depending.
Say you're a right brain person, the left brain is off.
Now you don't have any or youlose to a large degree your
ability to see details.
You only see the big picture,you only see the drama.
You only if it's the other wayaround you see, only remember
(05:03):
the things that were said andyou don't remember the bigger
picture.
Depending on if you're left orright brain orientated, then you
have the prefrontal cortex.
Now, the prefrontal cortex iswhere your wisdom lies, your
problem solving capabilities andyour ability to feel compassion
, to put yourself in otherpeople's shoes.
(05:23):
These are the qualities youreally need to solve a problem
and that can switch off up to85%.
So, basically, you've got likea quarter of your brain left and
it's like driving around withthree flat tires and you wonder
why you're so ineffective.
So in that state it isextremely difficult to find a
(05:46):
good solution.
Even a compromise.
You can't even find that.
You're beyond that.
And we were talking a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I just I think about it in terms of
relationships.
You know, when we're triggeredby our partner our fight, flight
or flee response you know ouramygdala takes over and, yeah,
you're not coming up with anygood solutions.
You're not looking for any typeof connection, you're like in
self-preservation mode and it'sa completely different part of
(06:16):
your body that takes over, right?
I mean, your bodily functionsaren't even working the way
they're supposed to, becauseevery resource in your body is
going towards protect yourselffrom the danger.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Exactly, and the higher functioning is switched
off.
Yeah, and that's why we behavereally like Erotically.
Yeah, I say it politely, butreally we're not the way we want
to behave.
And then you look back.
We're not the way we want tobehave.
And then you look back and youthink did I do that?
How is that possible?
But it is possible because ofour survival mode.
(06:50):
But there are other things thathappen as well on a cellular
level.
When you are in that stressstate, your body starts to
produce stress hormones and thenyou also have that they are
raging through your bodyhormones.
And then you also have thatthey are raging through your
body and each cell has receptorson the cell membranes and they
(07:11):
even have receptors for specificemotions.
So the stomach is moresensitive to, and the liver may
be more sensitive to, anger,while the gut is more sensitive
to a sense of abuse.
And so each organ the lungs iswith grief, so each organ is
sensitive to particular emotions.
(07:33):
And when that emotion moleculebecause this lady can't think of
her name right now, but shewritten molecules of emotion.
So you have these emotionsfloating through your body, hook
on the cell membrane and thenwill trigger stress responses
within the cell, which basicallygoes in overdrive because it's
(07:55):
about self-preservation, andthen you're way more likely to
shorten the lifespan of thatcell if it's for a long period
of time, because you don'tautomatically release that again
.
It takes time, you have toprocess it, you have to let go
of the, you have to forgive ordo something so that your body
(08:17):
will release that molecule thatkeeps on triggering the cell and
that's why people get sick,because they have these triggers
on the cells.
That is now keeping their cellsin overdrive.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There's so many different directions.
I want to go with this, butit's really interesting,
fascinating to me.
My children are actually doingsomething really difficult this
summer.
They are selling solar door todoor in a different state.
So they're in Minnesota rightnow.
They're knocking door to doorand both of my kids, my son and
(08:52):
my daughter, have both gottenreally sick over the course of
the summer.
And my son got sick first.
He's newly married.
He's been married for a coupleof months and you know he's got
his wife and then my daughter,that plus the whole team that
he's kind of responsible for,and so he spent like two weeks
in bed and he doesn't really getsick very often.
(09:14):
But we were talking about itlater and he just, you know my
husband was like did, were youstressed, you know like, because
that stress I think lowers yourimmunity, right, because that
stress I think lowers yourimmunity right, and so it makes
it so much easier for thosecells to be attacked and
weakened and you get sick.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, because there's another layer, which I'm glad
you brought that up, aboutlowering the immune system.
That is, on the energydistribution through the body.
Because, say, you have 10 unitsof energy to spend for the day
and four of those units is whatyou maybe use for running your
life, your work, your family,etc.
(09:55):
And six units it'sapproximately 60% of your energy
goes to the maintenance and therunning of your body.
The brain, the nervous system,the immune system, digestive
system, all these hormonalsystems, all of these systems
need energy to function.
(10:16):
Now, first of all, if we feel wehave an external stressor, the
immune system will go out, willbe switched off, because now we
have to fight an external fight.
And that's what we saw happeningin COVID, because we were now
made to believe it was anexternal threat, because
everything was so dangerous andthat's why people, the immune
system, went down.
But in the case of your son nowhe is stressed and he's worried
(10:40):
for whatever reason, also thestress of having door to door,
not knowing these people, whatare they going to say and is he
going to be judged and whatever,and so there's a lot of stress
that takes up now, say, two ofthe units of energy.
He still needs four units torun his life, but now, as I said
(11:01):
, remember, the higher functionis out the window.
So doing the work takes a lotmore effort because
concentration is harder and allthese thoughts running through
your head makes it harder, andthen you have maybe only four
units left for the repair,restore and rejuvenate of the
body, and the immune system willbe one of those that will be
(11:21):
compromised and makes you moreprone than to getting sick.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So the other thing you broughtup when you were talking that I
definitely wanted to address isthis idea that when you're
feeling extreme emotions whichis what generally happens when
you're holding a grudge, whenyou don't forgive somebody I
mean, I can think of just asituation in my own life where I
felt, I would say, misjudged.
(11:48):
There was a woman in myneighborhood who was just
treating me awfully Right, andso I would have these intrusive
thoughts all the time, like whyis she being like this?
Why, you know, why is she sohorrible?
Like why can't I just get thisout of my head, right, and it
was.
It was sucking a lot of theenergy that I needed to do other
(12:09):
things in my life, like I'd betaking a shower, I'd be getting
ready for a podcast interview oryou know, about to work with a
client, and all of a sudden Iwould just be like, oh, I'd feel
these emotions surrounding thissituation that I couldn't
control, and so I had to processthat, I had to let go of it and
forgive, right, so now she cando whatever she wants and I am
(12:29):
not affected by it anymore,because I've really processed
those emotions, I've forgiven,I've journaled about it.
You know I've done all thethings necessary to kind of
process those emotions out, andso now I'm not affected by it.
But I can imagine how, if youchose to hold on to that, if you
don't forgive, if you don'tknow how to process those
(12:51):
emotions really well, how it canjust deteriorate your health.
Like they say, unforgiveness islike drinking poison and
expecting the other person todie.
And that's such a real visualto me, because when you're not
forgiving someone, it's likeyou're literally drinking poison
and that other person iscompletely unaffected.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, they might be a little bit affected, but the
funny thing is we often.
Well, why do people not forgive?
Is a question to ask.
Why don't they forgive?
Different reasons, first of all, some think I'm punishing you
by not by withholding myforgiveness.
I'm punishing you.
You couldn't care less.
Maybe maybe you do, but maybeyou don't.
It often happens that you'restill stuck and the other person
(13:34):
has got on with their lives andforgotten all about the
incident, not even realizing,maybe, that they stepped on your
toes the way they did.
Yeah, but there's also a lot ofpeople don't want to forgive
because they feel it is a way ofprotecting themselves, it's a
way of preventing it fromhappening again, because if I
don't forgive, I will not forget.
(13:55):
But you can forgive and notforget.
I'm sure you're aware of it.
Forgiveness does not mean thatwe have to let other people back
into our life.
It doesn't mean that we condonethe behavior not at all but it
is about setting ourselves free.
But I teach a way offorgiveness that makes
forgiveness a no-brainer.
(14:16):
It makes it super easy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, I know you love to learn that method.
Yes, and one thing I'll pointout, just like why this is so
important to like listen inright now, like take notes, like
learn this method is because Ihave found in my life like the
process of forgiveness and I'vehad there's been lots of people
in my life, I've had theopportunity to forgive, but you
(14:40):
really can feel it in your body,on a cellular level, like
you're talking about, like beingable to just release the pain,
release the unforgiveness,release the anger and all of the
emotions surrounding whateveryou need to forgive.
You really can feel it in yourbody.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, but the method I am suggesting don't do it
while you're still super angry,because if anybody suggests to
do it when you're really angry,they'll clap you, they'll hit
you because it's so like I don'twant to hear it right now.
So the method that I'm sayingis first make sure you calm down
, take a few deep breaths andlet it subside a bit until
(15:21):
you're ready to say OK, let medeal with this, because if I
don't deal with it, it's goingto consume me, right?
So the first few questions areeasy to answer.
I first always ask a personimagine in a few years time,
where would you like to be?
You maybe have some ideas, youknow, maybe with your business,
certain amount of growth.
(15:42):
Shall we do this with you?
You don't have to share youranswers, you don't have to be
personal, but it's always niceto work with a real example.
Yeah, I'm an open book, let'sgo Right.
So imagine in a few years timewhere would you like to be?
And it can be specific, like Iwant to have so many followers
on my podcast and this andbusiness, and or it can just be
(16:05):
like well, you know, I want tofeel healthy.
And it can be vague, it can be.
It's not.
Goal setting has to be preciseand everything just an
impression.
Where do you want to be?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
yeah, I would say in a few years I would like to be
known for my book that's comingout bad marriage advice and be
able to just kind of walkthrough the world freely,
knowing that I am not foreveryone, like not everyone is
going to agree with all of thethings I teach and talk about,
but that's okay and that I'mshowing up every day for the
(16:36):
people who could potentially behelped by my work.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Okay Now what qualities do you admire in
someone?
And it's not putting them on apedestal, it's just identifying
what is the quality that theyhave.
And let's name just one, fortime's sake.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I really admire people that when you're around
them, you just know that theyradiate love around them.
You just know that they radiatelove, that they're intentional
about their actions and whateverthey're saying, even if it's
something that's difficult tosay, that they do the right
thing out of love for you andthe people around them.
(17:20):
I think that's such an admiralquality because sometimes that
requires doing very difficultthings or having very difficult
conversations or, you know,teaching a hard truth, but they
do it and you know they're doingit out of love Right.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And maybe this is something I must ask your
listeners in case you cannotanswer it.
But you know, monica, how manyof that quality do you have
already?
How good are you at addressinga difficult topic with love,
radiating love.
How good are you at that?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, I hope that the answer is getting there.
I mean, I work towards itdefinitely, so you know how much
of it is actually, you know,come to fruition, I don't know,
but I know that I work on it alot and how good are you towards
yourself with that.
I think I'm pretty forgiving ofmyself, actually, because I know
(18:14):
that I make mistakes, I knowthat I changed my mind.
I know that I'm not the sameperson.
You know that I was 10 yearsago, five years ago, five
minutes ago, right Like thisconversation here has helped me
grow in ways that you know, bigand small.
So I think that I think I runon the assumption that when I
know better, I do better, andI'm always looking to learn more
(18:37):
, so I don't beat myself up forpast versions of myself.
I tried to just say you knowwhat, you did the best that you
could with what you had, and nowyou have more and so you do
better.
And this actually saying thatout loud just made me realize
that that has been the basis ofme being able to forgive anyone
(18:59):
and everyone in my life, like myparents, old friends, you know,
my husband, my children.
I realized that everybody's onthis constant process of
evolution and I'm certain thatpeople are doing the best they
can with what they have.
Some people have more and somepeople have less right.
So, like you know my parents,they weren't perfect, but they
(19:22):
tried and they did the best theycould with what they had, and
so I'm fine you know what I'msaying Like they didn't stunt my
growth in any way, like theydid the best they could, and you
know my goal is to to buildupon what they were they gave me
and, you know, do better withwhat I have.
(19:45):
So, um, I I think that's justthe process of growing and being
a human and doing the best youcan, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Now, that quality of radiating love and sometimes it
can just be that you sit and youjust radiate love into the
world, into whoever you'remeeting and how much is that
quality going to assist you toget with you, with being
confident in yourself, where you, you know, knowing you have
(20:15):
your market and you're not foreverybody, and how much is that
quality of that acceptance andlove towards yourself and others
going to help you?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I mean so much.
I was just talking with afriend yesterday about you know
people.
People's opinions, people'sperceptions, people's judgments
have so much more to do withthem than it does for you.
So, yes, I put very sensitivetopics and you know personal
(20:45):
things about me online.
We're talking about somethingpretty personal right now and
you know personal things aboutme online.
We're talking about somethingpretty personal right now and
you know people can decide tofeel however they want about
that.
That doesn't say a lot about me.
It says more about them.
And so I just kind of let them.
I love promoting Mel Robbins newbook.
Let them, because I do try tolive my life that way, like I.
(21:06):
Just people can think or feelhowever they want.
That's really none of mybusiness.
I just have to let them and Ikeep keep doing what I know to
be true.
And if I'm on the wrong trackand somebody wants to give me
feedback, I have good boundariesand I'm definitely open to that
feedback.
But I also understand thattheir thoughts and opinions
(21:30):
about me are there.
It's about them.
It's about them and it's kindof their stuff to figure out.
But if people want to give mefeedback, I'm happy to consider
it too.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Okay, now comes the harder questions, these two
questions where people arealways very happy to answer.
The third and last part of thisis think of that irritating
behavior that you see insomebody, that maybe that
neighbor, that was difficult foryou to process.
What was it about her?
(22:04):
And if it's not about her,because, as we said earlier,
it's all about ourselves and ourperspective so what qualities
did you see in her thattriggered your emotions?
Yeah you know yourinterpretation of her behavior.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So really I mean, yes , I realized that it's that we
all act on the stories that wetell ourselves about other
people and basically what shedid was remove herself
completely from my life.
She didn't want me to talk toher, she didn't, you know, and
we were really good friends.
We were very, very close, weshared a lot of experiences and
(22:42):
you know, we were together a lot, knew all about each other, all
of those things Right.
And then all of a sudden shejust went cold, didn't want
anything to do with me andreally it was that unforgiveness
.
I mean, I'm a relationshipexpert and so my, my thing is
talking about feelings andemotions and what happened and
how can we make this better?
(23:03):
And you know it's it's repair.
And I know we make this better.
And you know it's it's repair.
And I know, as has been myexperience and with myself and
all of the couples that I workwith, that strength and
resilience comes in that repairprocess.
And so for her to not bewilling to participate in that,
(23:24):
you know, like let's just have aconversation about it.
I'm not hard to talk to, right?
Like I'm pretty easy to talk to, I'm pretty skilled in that
area and so for her to just dropme like I meant nothing to her
and ghost you, yeah, yeah, yeah,she definitely ghosted me right
, and so for her to be able tojust turn off like our
(23:45):
friendship means nothing.
You know, I'm not going to havethis uncomfortable conversation.
I'm not going to forgive you,I'm not going to, you know,
allow this to repair or whatever.
Yeah, I don't operate like that.
So it's just really difficultfor me to accept, like okay, I
guess the friendship is over andwe're going to pretend like we
(24:06):
don't know each other.
Like that's just super odd forme right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So now the harder question is then well, there's
two ways we can ask the question.
First of all, you can check isthere any topic in your life,
any area in your life whereyou're not willing to talk about
with yourself, that you'restruggling to address?
You know it can be.
Let me give a little example.
(24:35):
So like I was irritated withnegative people and then I
thought, well, I'm not negative.
And then I realized, oh, butI'm negative about this part in
my business or I'm negativeabout this relationship.
This little piece, it can be apocket, doesn't have to be a big
thing.
And the other thing is you canalso ask yourself otherwise.
Pretend you could give heradvice, pretend you know you're
(24:58):
not going to talk to her.
What advice would you havegiven her?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, well, I mean, at this point, it's been years,
and so the advice I'd give heris like, move on.
Right, like you've isolatedyourself by by uh, you know
cutting off any friendship whereanybody did anything that you
deemed not acceptable.
Right, and so to me is we'reall humans, we all make mistakes
(25:26):
.
Like if, if I've hurt you oryou know done something that you
didn't like, let's talk aboutit.
Right, like at this point, likeI said, I I feel like I have
gone through the process offorgiveness and I feel sad for
her.
Like, like you know, you'reyou're isolating yourself,
you're you're cutting yourselfoff from from friendships that
(25:48):
are super healthy, and you know,I like I just would say that's,
that's a hard way to live yourlife.
You know you're going to wakeup one day and be like I don't
have any friends, but this is myown fault, and so I just I do
feel sad for her.
So the advice I would give islike, put yourself out there,
(26:09):
like, have the uncomfortableconversation, like, give people
a break.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Your pride.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, I feel like for me it's like give me a break,
like you know, in my situationbut I know there's lots of
others that she's treated thesame way but for me it's like
give me a break, like if, if, ifI did something wrong, like
give me a break, like, like,like, confront me about it, like
let's talk about it, like Iwant to hear your feelings about
(26:36):
it, but you just ghosting meand cutting me off is not doing
anything for anyone.
So, you know, I'm not perfect.
I don't claim to be perfect.
I will apologize for my part inwhatever it is, but we can't
move forward unless you just,you know, talk to me.
So, and I've said and there'smultiple people who are kind of
(26:56):
in the same scenario and we'reall like if she just knocked on
our door and said, hey, I'mpissed about this, this and this
, I'd be like cool, come in,let's chat.
You know, but she never will,you know, I don't think she ever
will and it's really, reallysad.
She removed herself now from somany friendships that I mean I
(27:18):
don't know what she's up to.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, now that you say this happened already quite
a few years ago, so you havegrown a lot since then, yeah, so
let's look at how you were then, um, because then you can see.
Well, maybe, how did you havein that time of your life, maybe
a tendency to withdraw insteadof communicating?
(27:43):
Um, how much do you have maybein your own life an area that,
as I said, you're not willing todiscuss?
You just like encapsulate itand keep it aside and a closed
thing.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
so I think back then I, it felt abandoning to me,
like her ghosting me and you,you know it, it did trigger my
abandonment wounds, like howcould she do this to me?
Like, I think, trigger a lot ofthat, and now I can just be
like, oh well, you know, that'sreally sad that that friendship
(28:17):
is not there anymore.
But it really doesn't have alot to do with me, cause I'm
open, you know, and I'm an openbook and you know I'd love to
hear the feedback of you.
Know I wouldn't say I didn't doanything wrong, but at this
point I'm like I mean, I can'tfix what I'm not aware of.
So if you're not willing toshare with me what I did then
(28:41):
exactly, but you said somethingvery important.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
She triggered your abandonment wounds right and
working through your emotions.
How much did that help you torelease some of those
abandonment wounds?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, I mean it's been so helpful.
Like I said, I can feel that inmy body.
I can, you know, especiallywith my husband, I can tell.
He can now tell, because I havevery physical signs when I'm
feeling abandoned or wounded.
(29:16):
And so we have come up with nowthe two of us have come up with
cool phrases like I choose youor I'm not going anywhere, or
you know things that he canphysically do or say that helps
calm my nervous system, like Iknow it's up to me but I want to
take it a step further.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
This is what I say to my clients teach my clients to
do, because when there areabandonment issues, there is
self-abandonment, and so what Ido is when I feel like stressed
or that abandonment is triggered, I say you know what?
No matter what happened there,I still love me and I still
(30:01):
support me, Because thatself-confirmation, that
self-nurturing is so powerfuland it's wonderful if you have a
partner that can do that foryou.
But can you imagine if youcould stand by yourself like
that whenever your abandonmentis triggered?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
You're right, it's so powerful and ultimately it is
up to me.
It's up to me to reparent thatlittle child inside of me that
gets really scared that thepeople who love her are going to
abandon her, and that is partof the conversation I have with
her.
Monica, I am here.
I am not going anywhere, youwill never have to be alone.
And so that's big adult Monicatalking to little scared Monica.
(30:47):
Big adult Monica talking tolittle scared Monica.
But it is wonderful to havebeen able to be able to
communicate that to my husbandand have him participate in that
process to know that littlescared Monica comes out and he,
you know, can be super helpfulby saying things like I'm not
going anywhere, I choose you,you know we're in this together.
(31:09):
That is so affirming and I'm soappreciative of him.
But ultimately, I do know thatthat is my job.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Right now.
She basically made you awareagain because you probably were
aware of it, but on anotherlevel of the abandonment, and
she managed to give you anopportunity to let go of some of
your abandonment issues.
Yes, and for that I should begrateful, exactly Because when
(31:38):
you release those abandonmentissues, how is that going to
help you to reach your goalswhere you want to go?
Yeah, when people say you'renot for me, yes, you're not my,
you know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yes, yes.
So this is interesting becauseit does get a little bit
religious or spiritual, but I dobelieve that Jesus came here to
teach us how to love people whoare hard to love, how to love
people who are hard to love.
And so, yes, this particularwoman gave me the opportunity to
figure out how to love someonewho, for me, is very hard to
(32:15):
love.
So I did, I had to let go ofall of it and I had to say you
know what?
I love her, even though youknow she did give me a very nice
opportunity to re-explore myabandonment issues.
But you know, wherever she isand whatever she's doing, I I
love her and I wish her the bestand I hope that she does at
(32:39):
some point learn how to forgive,because it is really it's.
It's destructive, probably toher health, right, I mean that's
why we started this podcast,and so I'm not going to let it
affect my health Like I am likenope, I care too much about my
(33:00):
health mentally and physicallyto let this just fester inside
of me.
But I do wish the best for herand I hope that she gets to a
place where she can understandthat as well.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I totally agree with you.
Now, as you brought Jesus up, Ihave a quote that I like to
live by, and this is basicallythe principle that I was sharing
here with you is you know,don't try to remove the speck
from somebody else's eye.
Remove the beam from your owneye first, and so, when you
(33:36):
realize, oh, she's triggering myabandonment issues, let me work
through my abandonment issues.
Thank you so much, because thisis what I need to let go of so
I can reach my goals.
Now forgiveness becomes ano-brainer because you received
gold, and then the forgivenessis especially towards self.
(33:56):
To still be with abandonment,needing her to reflect back to
you that you still haveabandonment issues, and
forgiving her a little bit,that's easy because she's just
given you gold.
So that's how I do theforgiveness.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, I love that.
It's so beautiful and it's sotrue.
I mean, all of what you justsaid is, you know, remove the
beam from our own eye because,in reality and this is what's
really hard, I think, for mostpeople is that that's all we can
control.
Anyways, I can't control thespeck in her eye or whatever.
(34:34):
It is right.
I can only work with myself andhow I'm viewing the situation.
Ultimately, the story, I'mgoing to tell about it, right,
like I I'm sure in the processof us speaking right now, I said
a few things wrong or you knowwhatever, and that's okay,
because I know that I can onlywork on myself.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And it's also okay to sometimes be really angry with
somebody or really upset withsomebody.
It's a starting point and it'sso important to acknowledge how
we feel, that we are upset andhurt and we want to punch
somebody in the face.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
that is that happens sometimes and it's okay, we
don't act on it.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, you know, as long as we don't go and punch
somebody in the face, we canpunch a pillow if we have to,
but to acknowledge how you feelis such an important step.
And then I mean you havetechniques, breathing techniques
, or I like a process of holdingthese emotional stress release
points on your forehead, tapping.
(35:40):
It doesn't matter what you use.
I was talking to somebody today.
He says well, he likes to prayand hand it over.
I said and he thought he wasstarting now a serious, you know
almost a debate.
I said I don't care how you letgo, as long as you let go of it
.
He says that was a good answer.
You know, it is about lettinggo and it doesn't matter if you
(36:01):
do it by standing on your heador tapping or whatever what
works for you, as long as youlet it go.
And then you can analyze it andlearn from it and say thank you
very much for what you've givenme and move on.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I love this discussion and so I want to kind
of wrap it up by giving thelisteners a couple of ideas of
how to just release.
You know, kind of look atyourself, like if you're seeing
manifestations of unforgivenessin your health.
What are a few things Like I'llI'll tell you.
For me, it's really helpful tojournal about it and like just
(36:38):
knowing that nobody's ever goingto see it, even if I write out
all my thoughts about it andthen rip it up and burn it or
throw it away, whatever I needto do.
But it really helps to kind ofsee my thoughts about it,
because when I'm, you know, whenthey get stuck in my brain, I'm
thinking about in the shower orI'm just it's kind of like on a
loop until I put it down onpaper and I'm like, okay, all,
(37:00):
right, now I can work with this.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, no, I agree with you there.
I personally, I do agree thatyou need to make time to sit
with it.
Yes, so doing it in the shower,letting the feeling diffuse,
(37:28):
and then, if I'm upset withsomebody else, I'll do this
mirror work, and then that's myway of dealing with it and
forgiveness myself and others,but especially myself, for
needing that mirror.
That's how I process it and howdo I know I need it If I don't
feel good if.
I'm unhappy.
Yeah, if you can't sleep atnight, that's the first
(37:55):
indication that something isbugging you and your brain is
giving you extra time to figureit out.
So not being able to sleep canbe a good sign that there's
something troubling you, andrather get up and ask and
explore what is keeping me awake, because once you've processed
it, you'll sleep like a baby.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
So good.
Another great option is workingwith somebody like you or me to
help you verbally process andkind of work through whatever
emotions are coming up for youthe unforgiveness.
You know, the story that we'retelling ourselves about it.
Hannah, this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
(38:33):
Will you tell the listeners howto find you work with you?
I know you have an app.
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yes.
So if you go to hannahcockcom,you'll get either access to my
app or the meditation that Ihave, and if the meditation is
there, you probably also get theapp as well as a second option
to choose and then you'll be onmy mailing list and you'll have
immediate access to me as well.
But you can also go toithrivezone Great app for
(39:03):
improving health and especiallyhormonal health, but there are
other subjects there as well.
But especially if you're nowstruggling with physical health
complaints that you either don'twant to use traditional
medicine or you want to dosomething on the side with it
complimentary, or you've triedit and it's not working for you,
then please contact me, becauseI love working with getting to
(39:27):
the root cause of your physicalhealth problems and especially
your hormonal health problems.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Thank you so much and we'll talk to you again soon.
Thank you for this opportunity.
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