February 4, 2025 • 25 mins
This episode explores the concept of emotional entropy in relationships, emphasizing that love requires consistent effort and attention to thrive. Through relatable analogies and expert insights, we are encouraging you to actively nurture your marriage to prevent stagnation and promote growth.
• Overview of emotional entropy and its relevance to relationships
• Common misconceptions about marriage leading to complacency
• Importance of Dr. John Gottman’s insights on emotional health
• Strategies for turning towards each other’s bids for attention
• The value of recognizing daily contributions within the partnership
• Practical tips for investing in a thriving relationship
• Encouragement to prioritize kindness and active engagement with partners
• Call to action for listeners to implement changes in their relationships
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Monica Tanner (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and my co-host, Nate Bagley, who
is in charge of our topic today.
So he is going to introducewhat we're going to talk about,
and I am just here to lookpretty and give you insight a
little bit.
Nate Bagley (00:18):
So I have a question.
Okay, have you ever beendriving down the road and you
see an old car in a field andit's just like dilapidated,
rusty, gross?
Monica Tanner (00:34):
Yeah, you know, I live in Idaho, right Like I see
a lot, yeah, yeah yeah.
Nate Bagley (00:39):
Or another example is like have you ever seen
whether it's like maybe abusiness building or a house and
the owners move out and thenover time it just starts to wear
down and get really junky andgross and sometimes to the point
where it starts to collapse andthings like that?
(00:59):
You've noticed that?
Monica Tanner (01:00):
Totally, especially in some of the towns
that we love to visit.
Nate Bagley (01:05):
Yeah, so this is so .
This is a manifestation of thisidea called entropy.
It's the second law ofthermodynamics.
I'm not going to quote exactlywhat the law of thermo.
Monica Tanner (01:21):
I'm not a.
I'm not a physicist or anything, but the idea behind the law.
I thought you were.
Nate Bagley (01:24):
The idea behind the principle of entropy is that in
a closed system, things tend todegrade over time, and so you
would think that, like not usinga car or not using a house,
like not having foot traffic,not having that, those things
would actually be preserved,they would remain in the same
state that you left them in.
(01:45):
But the truth is is that whensomething stops getting used,
when people stop investingenergy to maintain something,
its natural state is to getworse and degrade over time.
And Dr John Gottman, who is oneof my favorite relationship
experts, has this reallyinteresting quote about
relational or emotional entropy.
(02:06):
He says like the second law ofthermodynamics, which says that
in closed energy systems thingstend to run down and get less
orderly, the same seems to betrue of closed relationships
like marriages.
My guess is that if you do thisis a complicated sentence, I'll
see if I can read it right hesays my guess is that if you, if
you do nothing to make thingsget better in your marriage but
(02:30):
do nothing wrong, then themarriage will still tend to get
worse over time.
To maintain a balanced emotionalecology, you need to make an
effort.
Think about your spouse duringthe day, think about, uh, how to
make a good thing even betterand then act, and that's from
his book why Marriages Succeedor Fail and how you Can Make
Yours Last.
So I want to talk about thisidea of entropy.
(02:52):
I think there is a little bitof a myth that people buy into
that we all bought into at somepoint where you find your person
and if you make the rightchoice, your relationship is
going to be great.
And then the second half ofthat myth is that if things stop
(03:13):
being great, it's probablybecause you chose the wrong
person.
You made a mistake and that isuntrue.
The reality is that there areall sorts of things in life that
, if you're not consistentlyinvesting in your relationship,
will erode at it and eat at itand degrade it and wear it down.
And, like Dr Gottman says, ifyou're not, even if you do
(03:34):
nothing wrong, you make nomistakes in your marriage.
But you're not proactivelyworking to make it better, it's
still going to get worse overtime.
So I don't know, what do youthink about that idea?
What do you think about thatprinciple?
Monica Tanner (03:48):
Yeah, Well, I think it's really interesting,
and you can see examples of thatall around.
Like, I mean, I just thinkabout, like if I, you know,
totally clean my living room andlike make it perfect, and then
we don't even enter the room,you'd think that it would just
stay the way that it is.
But you go in later and it'slike dusty and there you know.
(04:11):
So, like, if you ignoresomething and like maybe you're
not using it, wearing it down oreven making mistakes with it,
it's still going to disintegrateover time.
And that's so true with ourrelationships.
I mean, I do think there's thatmyth that, you know, once we
get married, it's like like Igot him, you know, it's like you
(04:34):
were my person.
Yeah, you work so hard toimpress somebody, like show up
as your best self when you'redating and you're like trying to
like really like snag theperson of your dreams, and then
you like make the vows and thenpeople just get really lazy.
Nate Bagley (04:49):
it's interesting well, I think it plays into the
the name of your podcast alittle bit too.
This is just occurring to me.
Think of a fairy tale story.
You know, uh, you know, acouple might fall in love.
They go through some adversity,you know the stereotypical
disney princess story, and thenthey and then or they meet, they
go through adversity and theyfall in love, and then they get
(05:11):
married.
And then what's the next step?
They lived happily ever after.
Well, like what.
We never really get to see whatthat looks like or what that
requires.
We just kind of assume it'sgoing to be a default.
If I find the right person andthat happily ever after is a
journey, not a destination.
Monica Tanner (05:30):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (05:32):
Yes For all of you Brandon Sanderson fans out there
.
Monica Tanner (05:36):
Journey before destination my husband would
love that.
I don't know.
I don't know what you'retalking about, but Well, it's a,
you know, you know I don't knowwhat you're talking about but,
you know, you know.
So, yeah, I think that's awesomebecause I do think, especially
like growing up as a little girlwho loved fairy tales and loved
Disney movies, like you do getthis idea that I'm going to
(05:56):
marry my Prince Charming, he'sjust going to take care of
everything and I just get tolike be beautiful and show up
and everything's going to beawesome, and so I think that is
a huge disservice a that we dowith those fairy tales.
So there's just not enoughstories about dang.
I'm gonna have to look this upand put it in the show notes.
(06:17):
But there's this book it's likecalled Fanny's dream.
Maybe my mother in law readlawread it to me once and she has
it at her house and I will gofind it and it is awesome.
We'll do like an epilogue orsomething with it.
But it's all about the hard workthat marriage requires, right?
So it's like all everythingthat happens after the happily
(06:38):
ever after, and it's so goodCause it's like you know,
they're working side by side andthey have to remember to like
engage with each other too,because you can just get really.
You know, life is about workand so you can be working really
hard, but you might be workingreally hard at the wrong things,
(06:58):
or you might be working reallyhard at the right things, but
forget to work as a teamtogether, and I think that's
those are some of the huge skillsets of marriage is learning
how to work hard together as ateam to get the right things
accomplished.
Nate Bagley (07:13):
Yes, Yep, I agree, I think, um, I think, if I were
to to try to summarize in onesentence what the cure to
entropy, or the the oppositionalforce is that you need to have
in your relationship If you dowant it to get better over time,
I'm going to steal anotherGottman quote, since this is his
(07:34):
principle.
He says it's the small thingsdone often that make the
difference.
And so this idea of of beingconsistent, this idea of having
my friend and I call it streakslike you have a streak, not like
streaks in your underwear,streaks like unbroken, like
consistency, like every singleday you do this one thing and I
(07:57):
really think Snapchat streak forthose who are younger.
Monica Tanner (07:59):
listening to this what?
Was that it's like a Snapchatstreak for those younger people,
right, right.
Nate Bagley (08:07):
It's exactly like that, and so I'm curious.
I want to ask you, what aresome of the things that the
small things that you do often,whether it's like daily or
weekly that are an investment inyour marriage, to kind of push
back on the entropy and theymight be second nature to you,
kind of like brushing your teeth?
I think a lot of people wouldfeel weird walking out the door
(08:30):
not having brushed their teeth.
You know, it's just soingrained in who you are, that
you're you just brush your teethevery day that it feels weird
when you don't do it.
I think there's somethingreally cool about developing
habits in your relationship thatthat you you feel a little
funky when you don't do them.
There's other types of habitsthat require a little bit of
(08:51):
willpower and planning andthoughtfulness, and I'm curious
if you have either of those inyour relationship and, if so,
what they are.
Monica Tanner (08:58):
Yeah, well, I'll bring up another like really
awesome kind of Gottmanprinciple which is like bids for
attention.
So I think really importantlyin my husband and I's marriage,
because I was actually justthinking about this this
afternoon.
It was really interestingbecause I was like why do I get
so giddy when I see my husbandon my phone Like either he texts
or he's sending a Marco, eitherhe can be sending a Marco when
(09:22):
you see your husband on yourphone or on his phone, on my
phone, okay, so not when you seeyour husband texting, but when
you see your husband on yourphone or on his phone, on my,
phone Like okay, so not when yousee your husband texting, but
when you see a message from yourhusband on your phone.
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (09:32):
Got it.
I don't love to see my husbandFor a second there, I was like
you get giddy when you see yourhusband on his phone, Like no,
no.
Monica Tanner (09:39):
Okay, sorry.
So when my separated and I'llsee something like flash from
him on my phone, I still getlike super giddy, like I'm so
excited to hear what he has tosay.
So it could be like a Marcohe's sending to his family or
like a group of buddies orsomething like that.
Or it could be a text he'ssending to me or in a group.
(09:59):
I get so giddy, like I'm solike, what is he gonna say?
Like I just get so excited,like oh my gosh, like, and so I
was like trying to figure outlike why is that?
Like we've been married foralmost 23 years, like that's a
really long time, and like Icould just be like I know, I
know what he's going to say,like I'm sure, like whatever,
(10:20):
but like I, just when I see himtalking, it's like everything
inside of me wants to know whathe is saying and I just get
really excited.
And I think it's because bothof us have gotten really good
over the years at turningtowards each other.
So when he makes a bid or Imake a bid, both of us are very
like cued into that.
(10:42):
So even like late in the middleof the night last night like he
was up at three for some reason, I don't know why, even though
that makes me crazy that he'sawake at three o'clock, like he
can roll over and any type ofsoft touch to me.
Nate Bagley (10:57):
And I was also up at three o'clock.
Monica Tanner (11:01):
We need to teach you guys how to sleep Like.
I am a really good sleeper If Ican like give those skills.
Nate Bagley (11:07):
I'm the same way.
I'm a sleeper too.
I just have children whodecided to take shifts last
night.
Yeah, yeah so anyways, we, ourchildren, continue your story.
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (11:15):
Yeah, our children are old, they all sleep
through the night.
There's no reason for him to beawake.
But if he does wake up in themiddle of the night and he like
touches me in any way, likemakes any type of soft contact
in the middle of the night, Iinstinctively turn towards him
and I feel like that's awake too.
(11:36):
Like we just really try.
When either of us is eithermaking a vocal bid or a physical
bid for any type of affection,we just turn towards each other
immediately and I love that.
It makes me just like I don'tknow crave him, like crave, like
(11:57):
what's inside his mind, likewhat he's doing, want to be
around him.
So I'm thinking a lot aboutthat lately, because my son is
dating seriously and likegetting moving towards the point
, and I'm like what is it?
What's the magic?
Like, what do you want to makesure that you have?
And for me it's really like areyou going to crave this person
(12:20):
for the rest of your life?
Are you going to be committedto the actions of what we're
talking about here and I thinkwe'll list some things but the
actions that are going to makeyou crave this person for the
rest of your life?
Nate Bagley (12:32):
Yeah, yeah.
There's two thoughts poppedinto my mind and I can.
If somebody is in a bad spacein their marriage, I could see
them hearing you say that and belike, well, of course I don't
crave my partner.
Them hearing you say that andbe like, well, of course I don't
crave my partner.
They're like grumpy or they'renot helpful or they're checked
out or you know, they're notcommitted.
(12:53):
And something I learned a longtime ago that has held true so
far I don't know if it's capitalT truth, but it feels pretty
true is I don't want to say 100%, this is 100%, but the idea
behind it is like I thinksometimes we think the feelings
(13:15):
precede the action.
Like when I feel nice about you, then I will treat you better.
When I feel positively towardsyou, then I will serve you and
be kind to you.
When you do something to earnit, like when you do something
to warrant this treatment, thenI'll feel good about you and the
(13:38):
actions will follow.
And what I've noticed in mylife is that when I change my
actions first, the emotionsoften follow, instead of waiting
for the emotion to inspire theaction.
So I don't think that it's ahundred percent true that, like
I mean there's?
I think there's.
When taken to an extreme, thiscould be like a, a, a recipe for
(13:59):
abuse, but I think that itwarrants asking yourself.
The question are can you leadwith the action by being the
type of partner that you want tobe, regardless of whether or
not your partner deserves it, orregardless of how you feel
about your partner, and if youcan show up that way for them?
What I found in my life is thatoftentimes the positive
(14:21):
feelings follow when I amintentionally kind and patient,
when I intentionally serve mypartner, when I plan things for
her, when I intentionally servemy partner, when I plan things
for her, when I intentionally dothings that are romantic, the
feelings of romance and desireand craving my partner often
follow.
But if I wait for her to likedo something to deserve it first
(14:41):
, sometimes I think that it's anunfair thing to do and we set
them up to fail, and so I feellike your craving of your
husband probably has a lot to dowith the way that you treat and
invest in him.
Is that fair.
Monica Tanner (14:57):
Yeah, I definitely think that's fair and
I I think that's like.
I think you could put that intoan experiment form like you do,
like the epic wives experiment.
I feel like there was a lot ofthat.
It was a lot of just like Dothe thing, whether you, you
think that your partner deservesit or not, and just see what
happens.
And there's a lot of like goodthat comes from that.
(15:19):
And then I also think that it'sIf you, if you show up as the
partner that you would want tobe partnered with, there's
something magical that happensthere too.
Nate Bagley (15:33):
Yeah, I had.
This is the second perfectsegue into the second thing that
I thought of while you weretalking is one of my favorite
couples.
Their names are David andGretchen.
My wife and I interviewed thema lot almost a decade ago and
we've been friends ever sinceand they're an incredible couple
and one of the things that theysaid has always always stuck
with me and my wife and I talkabout it regularly, and they
(15:56):
said in their relationship theymade this commitment to always
treat their partner like they'rethe actual most important
person in the world, and Iremember I think it was Gretchen
said like I'm surprised by howmany, how many people are more
kind to, like the, the, thecheckout person at the grocery
store or the teller at the bankor the customer support person
(16:17):
on the phone, like they havemore kindness and and generosity
towards them than they dotowards their own partner.
And so they they make it apoint, a priority, to treat each
other with kindness and respectand and you can see it in their
relationship and in theirfriendship and it's a really
beautiful thing and I thinkthere's something to really
(16:37):
committing to your partner andsaying like you are the most
important person to me and myactions and my words are going
to reflect that.
And that means when you'retalking to me, if I'm on my
phone, I'm going to put it downbecause you're the most
important thing to me.
If I'm watching a show, I'mgoing to hit pause or I'm going
to turn it off.
When you walk in the door, youknow when, when you invite me to
(16:59):
do something with you, I'm oror to engage with you like you
were talking.
You're the bids for connection.
Like engage with you Like we'retalking.
You're the bids for connection.
Like.
I want to.
I want to respond in a positiveway.
I want to.
I want to understand.
You know a recent podcast we did.
We talked about being a studentof your partner.
You know you invest inunderstanding, like what are
their likes and dislikes, whatupsets them, what's stressing
them out in their life right now.
Like you're inquisitive, you'recurious, you you thank them for
(17:22):
the ways that they contributeto make your life better, like.
All of those things reflectthis idea that you are the most
important person to me out ofanybody else on this planet.
And I think I think thatcomplacency of of just being
like well, this person chose meand they're always going to
choose me and that's just goingto be how things always are,
whether it's I don't think it'salways verbalized that way, but
(17:45):
I think subconsciously we canslip into that mindset and it
reflects on our behaviors andthat can be kind of what opens
up the door to that entropy tocreep into our relationship and
we just say, well, I'm not doinganything wrong, so I don't see
why our marriage should begetting worse.
But but I think that's thegateway to to to like marital
(18:05):
degradation.
Monica Tanner (18:06):
Yeah, you know, as you're talking, I was
thinking about this, like if youreally thought about, like who
would be somebody that you wouldliterally drop everything to
talk to, or like you know, ifthey called you like would no
matter what it was you weredoing, you would stop and like
answer that call.
If you, if you make your spousethat person, like that would be
(18:29):
like really because, like Ithink my husband is at work and
you know, I think early in ourmarriage, like you know, we'd be
having family time or something, and you know somebody would
call like a customer orsomething like that, and he
would feel so like like heneeded to stop what he was doing
, yeah, and answer that phonecall because they're paying the
(18:52):
bills or whatever.
And so I think, if you justswitch that and make your spouse
the one who you would literallywould drop everything and you
can have conversations aboutthis, like doing this
respectfully, like if yourspouse is calling you every five
minutes at work, probably weneed to have a conversation
about it.
Nate Bagley (19:08):
There's realistic boundaries that you can set, but
the principle, the idea behindit, is like yeah, am I number
one in your life?
Monica Tanner (19:16):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (19:16):
And are you number one in mine Treat?
Monica Tanner (19:18):
your spouse like that.
So the other thing I wasthinking about is I have this
couple that I'm working with andthey're so awesome and they're
gaining the skills really quickwith and they're so awesome and
they're gaining the skillsreally quick.
But one thing I've noticed is,um, the the husband is not
really good at like at buildingup his wife, and so she'll get
(19:39):
really emotional Like you cantell that she's longing for
something Like she wants to beimportant to him and she wants
to be like you know, feel likehe cares a lot about her, but
it's just really hard with theway he treats her.
And so we're working a lot.
The skills we're working on arecherishing skills, on on him
building her and making her like, helping her realize the best
(20:04):
version of herself.
So I'm not saying like he'sgoing to create her or something
like that, but a lot of timeswhen you see couples, you can
tell, like, when the wife issuper confident about you know
spending money or you knowshowing up in a certain way or
something like that, you canusually guess or or um, what's
(20:24):
the word uhrapolate that thehusband treats her like that,
like she's worthy of this orthat, and that confidence comes
from somebody really buildingyou up, and it goes the other
way too, of course, with wives.
When you see a husband that'ssuper confident at work and
something like, you canextrapolate from that that the
(20:46):
wife probably treats him likehe's super competent and awesome
and and vice the other wayaround too.
When you see a man who's kindof like a shell of a man and you
know he's like yes, yes, ma'am,you know whatever like, you can
pretty much guess that the wifeis probably breaking him down
(21:08):
and, like you know, insultinghim and nagging him and you know
all of those things.
So I think it is really tellingwe do have a huge impact on
each other as spouses and who weare have the ability to become.
Nate Bagley (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, I think you nailed it.
So the power is yours.
So just understand that theuniverse is working against you.
Monica Tanner (21:34):
That's so true actually.
Nate Bagley (21:36):
And that's the reality of life.
Is that like?
Monica Tanner (21:39):
But not like in a spiritual way, like everything
is happening for you, like thatis true, like I want.
I want you to know thateverything is happening for you.
But yeah, the forces of theuniverse are, they're breaking
things down, like you've got toactively build up.
Nate Bagley (21:55):
The natural state of any relationship is that it
will degrade over time if allyou do is not screw it up.
So if you want yourrelationship to be awesome, you
need to be doing consistent,regular things to invest in your
relationship and kind of giveit some positive momentum.
And hopefully in today'sepisode you got a couple of
(22:16):
ideas of ways that you caninvest in your relationship,
things you can do, mindsets thatyou can adopt that can help you
be consistently combating thatforce of entropy.
And maybe this is a greatdialogue to have with your
partner.
Like hey, I learned about thisthing called relational entropy
or emotional entropy and Irealized like I might've been a
(22:39):
little complacent what are somethings that I could do for you
that would consistently, thatwould really be meaningful, that
would make you feel loved andthat would help us combat that
kind of that, that erosion ofour relationship over time.
Monica Tanner (22:53):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (22:54):
Maybe they'll have an answer, maybe they'll need to
think about it, but I think wecan summarize this episode with
some really good bullet points.
Monica Tanner (23:00):
I think I'm ready , but you can add.
Nate Bagley (23:02):
Give us a few bullets.
Monica Tanner (23:04):
Yeah, so number one turn towards each other's
bids for attention.
Like, make that your number one.
If your partner is turning ismaking a bid in any way, vocally
or physically, turn towardsthose bids.
So that's number one turntowards each other.
And that's very Gottman.
Nate Bagley (23:23):
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (23:24):
Number two.
Let's see, number two is likemake an effort right.
Nate Bagley (23:30):
I'm loving your bullets.
These are great.
Monica Tanner (23:33):
I think number two broke down, but number three
is really good.
It's to build each other up.
Nate Bagley (23:37):
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (23:38):
So I think no.
Number two, I got it.
Number two is make each otherthe most important person in
your life.
So, number one, turn towardseach other.
Number two make your partnerthe most important person in
your life.
So, number one, turn towardseach other.
Number two make your partnerthe most important person in
your life.
Treat them like they are themost important person in your
life.
And number three build them upin any way you possibly can.
Nate Bagley (23:59):
Love it.
Okay, make a commitment, dosomething between now and the
next episode, and then come backand tell us what went.
Monica Tanner (24:06):
Let us know what worked best, because we don't
want your relationship to breakdown.
Don't just idly sit by andwatch a lot of TV and, you know,
complain that you're notgetting what you want in your
relationship.
Like you can take theseepisodes together, ask for what
you want, like, but also don'tlet your relationship break down
(24:26):
for lack of care.
Nate Bagley (24:29):
Love it.
Monica Tanner (24:30):
Awesome.
Well, I think we nailed thisone, so I think we can call this
one a day.
Nate Bagley (24:37):
So I'm going to let you sign off.
Monica Tanner (24:38):
We're going to call this relationship entropy,
and so here's how to combatrelationship entropy.
It's to one, turn towards eachother.
Two, make each other the mostimportant thing in each other's
lives.
And three, build each other upany chance you have.
So we will be here next weekwith another awesome episode,
(24:59):
and until then, happy marriaging.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and my co-host, Nate Bagley, who
is in charge of our topic today.
So he is going to introducewhat we're going to talk about,
and I am just here to lookpretty and give you insight a
little bit.
Nate Bagley (00:18):
So I have a question.
Okay, have you ever beendriving down the road and you
see an old car in a field andit's just like dilapidated,
rusty, gross?
Monica Tanner (00:34):
Yeah, you know, I live in Idaho, right Like I see
a lot, yeah, yeah yeah.
Nate Bagley (00:39):
Or another example is like have you ever seen
whether it's like maybe abusiness building or a house and
the owners move out and thenover time it just starts to wear
down and get really junky andgross and sometimes to the point
where it starts to collapse andthings like that?
(00:59):
You've noticed that?
Monica Tanner (01:00):
Totally, especially in some of the towns
that we love to visit.
Nate Bagley (01:05):
Yeah, so this is so .
This is a manifestation of thisidea called entropy.
It's the second law ofthermodynamics.
I'm not going to quote exactlywhat the law of thermo.
Monica Tanner (01:21):
I'm not a.
I'm not a physicist or anything, but the idea behind the law.
I thought you were.
Nate Bagley (01:24):
The idea behind the principle of entropy is that in
a closed system, things tend todegrade over time, and so you
would think that, like not usinga car or not using a house,
like not having foot traffic,not having that, those things
would actually be preserved,they would remain in the same
state that you left them in.
(01:45):
But the truth is is that whensomething stops getting used,
when people stop investingenergy to maintain something,
its natural state is to getworse and degrade over time.
And Dr John Gottman, who is oneof my favorite relationship
experts, has this reallyinteresting quote about
relational or emotional entropy.
(02:06):
He says like the second law ofthermodynamics, which says that
in closed energy systems thingstend to run down and get less
orderly, the same seems to betrue of closed relationships
like marriages.
My guess is that if you do thisis a complicated sentence, I'll
see if I can read it right hesays my guess is that if you, if
you do nothing to make thingsget better in your marriage but
(02:30):
do nothing wrong, then themarriage will still tend to get
worse over time.
To maintain a balanced emotionalecology, you need to make an
effort.
Think about your spouse duringthe day, think about, uh, how to
make a good thing even betterand then act, and that's from
his book why Marriages Succeedor Fail and how you Can Make
Yours Last.
So I want to talk about thisidea of entropy.
(02:52):
I think there is a little bitof a myth that people buy into
that we all bought into at somepoint where you find your person
and if you make the rightchoice, your relationship is
going to be great.
And then the second half ofthat myth is that if things stop
(03:13):
being great, it's probablybecause you chose the wrong
person.
You made a mistake and that isuntrue.
The reality is that there areall sorts of things in life that
, if you're not consistentlyinvesting in your relationship,
will erode at it and eat at itand degrade it and wear it down.
And, like Dr Gottman says, ifyou're not, even if you do
(03:34):
nothing wrong, you make nomistakes in your marriage.
But you're not proactivelyworking to make it better, it's
still going to get worse overtime.
So I don't know, what do youthink about that idea?
What do you think about thatprinciple?
Monica Tanner (03:48):
Yeah, Well, I think it's really interesting,
and you can see examples of thatall around.
Like, I mean, I just thinkabout, like if I, you know,
totally clean my living room andlike make it perfect, and then
we don't even enter the room,you'd think that it would just
stay the way that it is.
But you go in later and it'slike dusty and there you know.
(04:11):
So, like, if you ignoresomething and like maybe you're
not using it, wearing it down oreven making mistakes with it,
it's still going to disintegrateover time.
And that's so true with ourrelationships.
I mean, I do think there's thatmyth that, you know, once we
get married, it's like like Igot him, you know, it's like you
(04:34):
were my person.
Yeah, you work so hard toimpress somebody, like show up
as your best self when you'redating and you're like trying to
like really like snag theperson of your dreams, and then
you like make the vows and thenpeople just get really lazy.
Nate Bagley (04:49):
it's interesting well, I think it plays into the
the name of your podcast alittle bit too.
This is just occurring to me.
Think of a fairy tale story.
You know, uh, you know, acouple might fall in love.
They go through some adversity,you know the stereotypical
disney princess story, and thenthey and then or they meet, they
go through adversity and theyfall in love, and then they get
(05:11):
married.
And then what's the next step?
They lived happily ever after.
Well, like what.
We never really get to see whatthat looks like or what that
requires.
We just kind of assume it'sgoing to be a default.
If I find the right person andthat happily ever after is a
journey, not a destination.
Monica Tanner (05:30):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (05:32):
Yes For all of you Brandon Sanderson fans out there
.
Monica Tanner (05:36):
Journey before destination my husband would
love that.
I don't know.
I don't know what you'retalking about, but Well, it's a,
you know, you know I don't knowwhat you're talking about but,
you know, you know.
So, yeah, I think that's awesomebecause I do think, especially
like growing up as a little girlwho loved fairy tales and loved
Disney movies, like you do getthis idea that I'm going to
(05:56):
marry my Prince Charming, he'sjust going to take care of
everything and I just get tolike be beautiful and show up
and everything's going to beawesome, and so I think that is
a huge disservice a that we dowith those fairy tales.
So there's just not enoughstories about dang.
I'm gonna have to look this upand put it in the show notes.
(06:17):
But there's this book it's likecalled Fanny's dream.
Maybe my mother in law readlawread it to me once and she has
it at her house and I will gofind it and it is awesome.
We'll do like an epilogue orsomething with it.
But it's all about the hard workthat marriage requires, right?
So it's like all everythingthat happens after the happily
(06:38):
ever after, and it's so goodCause it's like you know,
they're working side by side andthey have to remember to like
engage with each other too,because you can just get really.
You know, life is about workand so you can be working really
hard, but you might be workingreally hard at the wrong things,
(06:58):
or you might be working reallyhard at the right things, but
forget to work as a teamtogether, and I think that's
those are some of the huge skillsets of marriage is learning
how to work hard together as ateam to get the right things
accomplished.
Nate Bagley (07:13):
Yes, Yep, I agree, I think, um, I think, if I were
to to try to summarize in onesentence what the cure to
entropy, or the the oppositionalforce is that you need to have
in your relationship If you dowant it to get better over time,
I'm going to steal anotherGottman quote, since this is his
(07:34):
principle.
He says it's the small thingsdone often that make the
difference.
And so this idea of of beingconsistent, this idea of having
my friend and I call it streakslike you have a streak, not like
streaks in your underwear,streaks like unbroken, like
consistency, like every singleday you do this one thing and I
(07:57):
really think Snapchat streak forthose who are younger.
Monica Tanner (07:59):
listening to this what?
Was that it's like a Snapchatstreak for those younger people,
right, right.
Nate Bagley (08:07):
It's exactly like that, and so I'm curious.
I want to ask you, what aresome of the things that the
small things that you do often,whether it's like daily or
weekly that are an investment inyour marriage, to kind of push
back on the entropy and theymight be second nature to you,
kind of like brushing your teeth?
I think a lot of people wouldfeel weird walking out the door
(08:30):
not having brushed their teeth.
You know, it's just soingrained in who you are, that
you're you just brush your teethevery day that it feels weird
when you don't do it.
I think there's somethingreally cool about developing
habits in your relationship thatthat you you feel a little
funky when you don't do them.
There's other types of habitsthat require a little bit of
(08:51):
willpower and planning andthoughtfulness, and I'm curious
if you have either of those inyour relationship and, if so,
what they are.
Monica Tanner (08:58):
Yeah, well, I'll bring up another like really
awesome kind of Gottmanprinciple which is like bids for
attention.
So I think really importantlyin my husband and I's marriage,
because I was actually justthinking about this this
afternoon.
It was really interestingbecause I was like why do I get
so giddy when I see my husbandon my phone Like either he texts
or he's sending a Marco, eitherhe can be sending a Marco when
(09:22):
you see your husband on yourphone or on his phone, on my
phone, okay, so not when you seeyour husband texting, but when
you see your husband on yourphone or on his phone, on my,
phone Like okay, so not when yousee your husband texting, but
when you see a message from yourhusband on your phone.
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (09:32):
Got it.
I don't love to see my husbandFor a second there, I was like
you get giddy when you see yourhusband on his phone, Like no,
no.
Monica Tanner (09:39):
Okay, sorry.
So when my separated and I'llsee something like flash from
him on my phone, I still getlike super giddy, like I'm so
excited to hear what he has tosay.
So it could be like a Marcohe's sending to his family or
like a group of buddies orsomething like that.
Or it could be a text he'ssending to me or in a group.
(09:59):
I get so giddy, like I'm solike, what is he gonna say?
Like I just get so excited,like oh my gosh, like, and so I
was like trying to figure outlike why is that?
Like we've been married foralmost 23 years, like that's a
really long time, and like Icould just be like I know, I
know what he's going to say,like I'm sure, like whatever,
(10:20):
but like I, just when I see himtalking, it's like everything
inside of me wants to know whathe is saying and I just get
really excited.
And I think it's because bothof us have gotten really good
over the years at turningtowards each other.
So when he makes a bid or Imake a bid, both of us are very
like cued into that.
(10:42):
So even like late in the middleof the night last night like he
was up at three for some reason, I don't know why, even though
that makes me crazy that he'sawake at three o'clock, like he
can roll over and any type ofsoft touch to me.
Nate Bagley (10:57):
And I was also up at three o'clock.
Monica Tanner (11:01):
We need to teach you guys how to sleep Like.
I am a really good sleeper If Ican like give those skills.
Nate Bagley (11:07):
I'm the same way.
I'm a sleeper too.
I just have children whodecided to take shifts last
night.
Yeah, yeah so anyways, we, ourchildren, continue your story.
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (11:15):
Yeah, our children are old, they all sleep
through the night.
There's no reason for him to beawake.
But if he does wake up in themiddle of the night and he like
touches me in any way, likemakes any type of soft contact
in the middle of the night, Iinstinctively turn towards him
and I feel like that's awake too.
(11:36):
Like we just really try.
When either of us is eithermaking a vocal bid or a physical
bid for any type of affection,we just turn towards each other
immediately and I love that.
It makes me just like I don'tknow crave him, like crave, like
(11:57):
what's inside his mind, likewhat he's doing, want to be
around him.
So I'm thinking a lot aboutthat lately, because my son is
dating seriously and likegetting moving towards the point
, and I'm like what is it?
What's the magic?
Like, what do you want to makesure that you have?
And for me it's really like areyou going to crave this person
(12:20):
for the rest of your life?
Are you going to be committedto the actions of what we're
talking about here and I thinkwe'll list some things but the
actions that are going to makeyou crave this person for the
rest of your life?
Nate Bagley (12:32):
Yeah, yeah.
There's two thoughts poppedinto my mind and I can.
If somebody is in a bad spacein their marriage, I could see
them hearing you say that and belike, well, of course I don't
crave my partner.
Them hearing you say that andbe like, well, of course I don't
crave my partner.
They're like grumpy or they'renot helpful or they're checked
out or you know, they're notcommitted.
(12:53):
And something I learned a longtime ago that has held true so
far I don't know if it's capitalT truth, but it feels pretty
true is I don't want to say 100%, this is 100%, but the idea
behind it is like I thinksometimes we think the feelings
(13:15):
precede the action.
Like when I feel nice about you, then I will treat you better.
When I feel positively towardsyou, then I will serve you and
be kind to you.
When you do something to earnit, like when you do something
to warrant this treatment, thenI'll feel good about you and the
(13:38):
actions will follow.
And what I've noticed in mylife is that when I change my
actions first, the emotionsoften follow, instead of waiting
for the emotion to inspire theaction.
So I don't think that it's ahundred percent true that, like
I mean there's?
I think there's.
When taken to an extreme, thiscould be like a, a, a recipe for
(13:59):
abuse, but I think that itwarrants asking yourself.
The question are can you leadwith the action by being the
type of partner that you want tobe, regardless of whether or
not your partner deserves it, orregardless of how you feel
about your partner, and if youcan show up that way for them?
What I found in my life is thatoftentimes the positive
(14:21):
feelings follow when I amintentionally kind and patient,
when I intentionally serve mypartner, when I plan things for
her, when I intentionally servemy partner, when I plan things
for her, when I intentionally dothings that are romantic, the
feelings of romance and desireand craving my partner often
follow.
But if I wait for her to likedo something to deserve it first
(14:41):
, sometimes I think that it's anunfair thing to do and we set
them up to fail, and so I feellike your craving of your
husband probably has a lot to dowith the way that you treat and
invest in him.
Is that fair.
Monica Tanner (14:57):
Yeah, I definitely think that's fair and
I I think that's like.
I think you could put that intoan experiment form like you do,
like the epic wives experiment.
I feel like there was a lot ofthat.
It was a lot of just like Dothe thing, whether you, you
think that your partner deservesit or not, and just see what
happens.
And there's a lot of like goodthat comes from that.
(15:19):
And then I also think that it'sIf you, if you show up as the
partner that you would want tobe partnered with, there's
something magical that happensthere too.
Nate Bagley (15:33):
Yeah, I had.
This is the second perfectsegue into the second thing that
I thought of while you weretalking is one of my favorite
couples.
Their names are David andGretchen.
My wife and I interviewed thema lot almost a decade ago and
we've been friends ever sinceand they're an incredible couple
and one of the things that theysaid has always always stuck
with me and my wife and I talkabout it regularly, and they
(15:56):
said in their relationship theymade this commitment to always
treat their partner like they'rethe actual most important
person in the world, and Iremember I think it was Gretchen
said like I'm surprised by howmany, how many people are more
kind to, like the, the, thecheckout person at the grocery
store or the teller at the bankor the customer support person
(16:17):
on the phone, like they havemore kindness and and generosity
towards them than they dotowards their own partner.
And so they they make it apoint, a priority, to treat each
other with kindness and respectand and you can see it in their
relationship and in theirfriendship and it's a really
beautiful thing and I thinkthere's something to really
(16:37):
committing to your partner andsaying like you are the most
important person to me and myactions and my words are going
to reflect that.
And that means when you'retalking to me, if I'm on my
phone, I'm going to put it downbecause you're the most
important thing to me.
If I'm watching a show, I'mgoing to hit pause or I'm going
to turn it off.
When you walk in the door, youknow when, when you invite me to
(16:59):
do something with you, I'm oror to engage with you like you
were talking.
You're the bids for connection.
Like engage with you Like we'retalking.
You're the bids for connection.
Like.
I want to.
I want to respond in a positiveway.
I want to.
I want to understand.
You know a recent podcast we did.
We talked about being a studentof your partner.
You know you invest inunderstanding, like what are
their likes and dislikes, whatupsets them, what's stressing
them out in their life right now.
Like you're inquisitive, you'recurious, you you thank them for
(17:22):
the ways that they contributeto make your life better, like.
All of those things reflectthis idea that you are the most
important person to me out ofanybody else on this planet.
And I think I think thatcomplacency of of just being
like well, this person chose meand they're always going to
choose me and that's just goingto be how things always are,
whether it's I don't think it'salways verbalized that way, but
(17:45):
I think subconsciously we canslip into that mindset and it
reflects on our behaviors andthat can be kind of what opens
up the door to that entropy tocreep into our relationship and
we just say, well, I'm not doinganything wrong, so I don't see
why our marriage should begetting worse.
But but I think that's thegateway to to to like marital
(18:05):
degradation.
Monica Tanner (18:06):
Yeah, you know, as you're talking, I was
thinking about this, like if youreally thought about, like who
would be somebody that you wouldliterally drop everything to
talk to, or like you know, ifthey called you like would no
matter what it was you weredoing, you would stop and like
answer that call.
If you, if you make your spousethat person, like that would be
(18:29):
like really because, like Ithink my husband is at work and
you know, I think early in ourmarriage, like you know, we'd be
having family time or something, and you know somebody would
call like a customer orsomething like that, and he
would feel so like like heneeded to stop what he was doing
, yeah, and answer that phonecall because they're paying the
(18:52):
bills or whatever.
And so I think, if you justswitch that and make your spouse
the one who you would literallywould drop everything and you
can have conversations aboutthis, like doing this
respectfully, like if yourspouse is calling you every five
minutes at work, probably weneed to have a conversation
about it.
Nate Bagley (19:08):
There's realistic boundaries that you can set, but
the principle, the idea behindit, is like yeah, am I number
one in your life?
Monica Tanner (19:16):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (19:16):
And are you number one in mine Treat?
Monica Tanner (19:18):
your spouse like that.
So the other thing I wasthinking about is I have this
couple that I'm working with andthey're so awesome and they're
gaining the skills really quickwith and they're so awesome and
they're gaining the skillsreally quick.
But one thing I've noticed is,um, the the husband is not
really good at like at buildingup his wife, and so she'll get
(19:39):
really emotional Like you cantell that she's longing for
something Like she wants to beimportant to him and she wants
to be like you know, feel likehe cares a lot about her, but
it's just really hard with theway he treats her.
And so we're working a lot.
The skills we're working on arecherishing skills, on on him
building her and making her like, helping her realize the best
(20:04):
version of herself.
So I'm not saying like he'sgoing to create her or something
like that, but a lot of timeswhen you see couples, you can
tell, like, when the wife issuper confident about you know
spending money or you knowshowing up in a certain way or
something like that, you canusually guess or or um, what's
(20:24):
the word uhrapolate that thehusband treats her like that,
like she's worthy of this orthat, and that confidence comes
from somebody really buildingyou up, and it goes the other
way too, of course, with wives.
When you see a husband that'ssuper confident at work and
something like, you canextrapolate from that that the
(20:46):
wife probably treats him likehe's super competent and awesome
and and vice the other wayaround too.
When you see a man who's kindof like a shell of a man and you
know he's like yes, yes, ma'am,you know whatever like, you can
pretty much guess that the wifeis probably breaking him down
(21:08):
and, like you know, insultinghim and nagging him and you know
all of those things.
So I think it is really tellingwe do have a huge impact on
each other as spouses and who weare have the ability to become.
Nate Bagley (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, I think you nailed it.
So the power is yours.
So just understand that theuniverse is working against you.
Monica Tanner (21:34):
That's so true actually.
Nate Bagley (21:36):
And that's the reality of life.
Is that like?
Monica Tanner (21:39):
But not like in a spiritual way, like everything
is happening for you, like thatis true, like I want.
I want you to know thateverything is happening for you.
But yeah, the forces of theuniverse are, they're breaking
things down, like you've got toactively build up.
Nate Bagley (21:55):
The natural state of any relationship is that it
will degrade over time if allyou do is not screw it up.
So if you want yourrelationship to be awesome, you
need to be doing consistent,regular things to invest in your
relationship and kind of giveit some positive momentum.
And hopefully in today'sepisode you got a couple of
(22:16):
ideas of ways that you caninvest in your relationship,
things you can do, mindsets thatyou can adopt that can help you
be consistently combating thatforce of entropy.
And maybe this is a greatdialogue to have with your
partner.
Like hey, I learned about thisthing called relational entropy
or emotional entropy and Irealized like I might've been a
(22:39):
little complacent what are somethings that I could do for you
that would consistently, thatwould really be meaningful, that
would make you feel loved andthat would help us combat that
kind of that, that erosion ofour relationship over time.
Monica Tanner (22:53):
Yeah.
Nate Bagley (22:54):
Maybe they'll have an answer, maybe they'll need to
think about it, but I think wecan summarize this episode with
some really good bullet points.
Monica Tanner (23:00):
I think I'm ready , but you can add.
Nate Bagley (23:02):
Give us a few bullets.
Monica Tanner (23:04):
Yeah, so number one turn towards each other's
bids for attention.
Like, make that your number one.
If your partner is turning ismaking a bid in any way, vocally
or physically, turn towardsthose bids.
So that's number one turntowards each other.
And that's very Gottman.
Nate Bagley (23:23):
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (23:24):
Number two.
Let's see, number two is likemake an effort right.
Nate Bagley (23:30):
I'm loving your bullets.
These are great.
Monica Tanner (23:33):
I think number two broke down, but number three
is really good.
It's to build each other up.
Nate Bagley (23:37):
Yeah.
Monica Tanner (23:38):
So I think no.
Number two, I got it.
Number two is make each otherthe most important person in
your life.
So, number one, turn towardseach other.
Number two make your partnerthe most important person in
your life.
So, number one, turn towardseach other.
Number two make your partnerthe most important person in
your life.
Treat them like they are themost important person in your
life.
And number three build them upin any way you possibly can.
Nate Bagley (23:59):
Love it.
Okay, make a commitment, dosomething between now and the
next episode, and then come backand tell us what went.
Monica Tanner (24:06):
Let us know what worked best, because we don't
want your relationship to breakdown.
Don't just idly sit by andwatch a lot of TV and, you know,
complain that you're notgetting what you want in your
relationship.
Like you can take theseepisodes together, ask for what
you want, like, but also don'tlet your relationship break down
(24:26):
for lack of care.
Nate Bagley (24:29):
Love it.
Monica Tanner (24:30):
Awesome.
Well, I think we nailed thisone, so I think we can call this
one a day.
Nate Bagley (24:37):
So I'm going to let you sign off.
Monica Tanner (24:38):
We're going to call this relationship entropy,
and so here's how to combatrelationship entropy.
It's to one, turn towards eachother.
Two, make each other the mostimportant thing in each other's
lives.
And three, build each other upany chance you have.
So we will be here next weekwith another awesome episode,
(24:59):
and until then, happy marriaging.
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