October 28, 2025 • 35 mins
Today, we're talking about how Christian couples can build deeper intimacy by turning awkward silence into simple, safe conversations. Nick and Amy McKinlay of Ultimate Intimacy share research-backed prompts, healthy masculinity traits, and ways to navigate power dynamics when desire is mismatched.
• why communication is the core of sexual intimacy
• how curiosity and vulnerability create safety
• traits of healthy masculinity women find attractive
• using prompts, card decks and the app to start talks
• handling mismatched desire and power dynamics
• finding the why behind resistance before the how
• setting loving boundaries when one partner avoids
• turning team mindset into daily connection
• practical steps couples can implement today
Find the book, Let's Talk About Sex at shop.ultimateintimacy.com. You can download the app and access additional resources at ultimateintimacy.com or your app store.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
(00:02):
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm really excited about our
guests today.
They are my good friends, Nickand Amy McKinley.
They have such a cool mission inthe world.
They have created an app calledthe Ultimate Intimacy App that
is specifically for couples,specifically for teaching
Christian-based values aroundintimacy and healthy intimate
(00:28):
practices for married couples.
And I'm so excited to dig intotheir content today.
Amy has also written a book witha partner that we'll talk about.
So welcome to the podcast, Nickand Amy McKinley.
How are you guys doing?
Great.
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Thank you so much for having us on.
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
We're excited.
I feel like it's been a longtime coming.
We've both had such busy thingshappening in our family, and
we're so similar.
And so it's been hard to connectour schedules, but I'm so glad
we finally did.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you again.
Yeah, we had, I think, well, youwere on our podcast a couple
years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Yeah, it's been a while.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So many fun things have happenedsince then.
SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Yeah.
You guys wrote a book.
Do you want to talk about yourbook?
SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
And yeah, so I was asked by our awesome friend Nate
Whitson.
He is just a great Christian mantrying to help married men
mostly just step it up in theirmarriages, just be the man that
God wants them to be.
And so he asked me to co-writeum the book, Let's Talk About
Sex.
And I was really excited topartner with him on this.
(01:37):
And it's 20 things Christianhusbands and wives wish their
spouse knew or would do, butdon't know how to tell you.
And so what we did was weactually pulled our audience and
found like what are the top 20things that wives want their
husbands to know about not justsex, but like intimacy in
general in marriage.
And then what are the top 20things that husbands want their
(02:00):
wives to know when it comes tointimacy in marriage?
So it wasn't just, it was fun todo the research, kind of found
out like what people like reallywant their spouse to know, but
sometimes have a hard timetelling them or really diving
deep into that category.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So well, what I think is great about the book
from an outsider reading it isum, you know, the men start
reading it and they're like,wait, this isn't talking about
sex.
You're like, it'll get to it.
Wait, this isn't talking aboutsex yet.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
You're like, you're exactly right because you know
the women start emotionally, youknow, like and you need to
understand that.
So yeah, even though it's let'stalk about sex, like we're
talking about like what it takesto like get a woman going, like
where that emotional connectioncomes through.
And so I would say probably thefirst 10 or 12 out of the 20
(02:47):
things are like this is how youthis is where foreplay really
starts, guys, you know.
So, anyways, it was it was funto write, and it's yeah, we're
excited to share a few parts.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Yeah, I can't wait to hear about it.
So, but just to clarify, so youguys pulled your audience, and
that's where you pulled the 20things from.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Yep.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (03:11):
And that's so cool because it's not just like
things you pulled out of theair, it's like literally what
people who listen to and watchyou guys and are part of the
app.
This is like what they wish theycould communicate, which is what
I'm all about, is like how totalk about these things because
we're not taught.
(03:32):
And even let's say we came froma family that was really healthy
around sexuality, we stillprobably didn't it wasn't
modeled for us how our parentstalked about sexual intimacy.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Because it's so that's not something, yeah, that
you're taught.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Well, we also have the other part of that, which is
our how our spouse was raised,right?
So we so we may have ourexperience, but then how was our
spouse raised and what's theirexperience, and how does that
dynamic fit in?
And for a lot of couples, thatcan be extremely difficult,
right?
Whether they were taught that,hey, it's bad, it's bad, it's
bad, and now all of a suddenyou're married and now it's
(04:07):
okay, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
So the problem we're finding with every single
situation that comes, like weget a lot of messages, a ton of
emails, we take a lot of pollsand surveys.
The problem is always, well,we're we're dealing with this or
this, or she does this, or hedoes this.
Have you talked about it?
Well, I don't really know how totalk about it.
I don't really know how to diveinto this conversation.
(04:28):
It's really awkward, or it justturns into a fight, or whatever.
The problem is, is that couplesdon't know how to like really,
really communicate aboutintimacy.
And so the great thing that weadded into our book is let's
talk about it.
So, yeah, we're going over somereally great topics to discuss,
but in the book, we decided toadd in like conversation
(04:52):
starters at the end of everychapter about that topic.
This is how you approach yourspouse and actually talk about
this exact thing.
Like we're trying to help you.
So it's literally like sexcommunication, intimacy
communication one-on-one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Like you're exactly right.
I mean, you know, like Amy said,95% of the time.
Well, I don't have you talkedabout it.
Well, I don't know what to sayor how to do that.
And we feel like almost anyanything can be resolved or
figured out with goodcommunication, but but it's
extremely hard to do.
Like, how do you start that?
Where do you learn that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
So yeah, and the thing I've noticed too, working
with couples is no two couplesare the same in this area.
Like everybody's desire profilesare different, their opinions
are different, their experienceare different, preferences.
And so, yeah, you've got to talkabout it because you know, and
here's what's really important.
(05:45):
I think we're gonna probablydive into this in the episode is
creating a safe space wherecouples can talk about it.
Like, I love talking to myhusband about this so much, but
one of the things he says heloves about me the most, like
one of his favorite things aboutour marriage is how open we are
about it.
(06:05):
And I never, I mean, I come froma very different religious
background, and so for me,healthy sexuality, I don't know
if I would call it healthysexuality, but open sexuality
was much more normal for me.
I saw it a lot more, I was muchmore exposed to like the body
(06:25):
and sex and those types ofthings.
So nothing really surprises me.
So when my husband's likesharing with me his most
intimate, you know, vulnerablethoughts and ideas, I never had
any type of reaction except for,oh, okay, cool.
unknown (06:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
And so he's always like, if I had married somebody
who couldn't handle like all ofme, I would have, you know, I
probably would have rebelled orgone crazy or something like
that.
And so I am really grateful forthat aspect of our relationship
and that part of my upbringingbecause nothing really surprises
me.
Like I can just, I can just rollwith it.
(07:01):
Like I'm not like, oh, that'sweird.
I'm like, oh, okay, well, cool.
Let's do it, you know.
And so I think that's becomesreally important that if you're
gonna open up theseconversations with your spouse,
which you absolutely should,it's about really figuring out
how to ground yourself, how tolike, you know, keep your
reactions, you know, very safeand understanding, inviting,
(07:25):
tolerant, and just gettingreally curious, asking lots of
questions, and let your spousecompletely reveal themselves to
you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:33):
That's what intimacy is, right?
Yeah, yes.
And it's a much easier said thandone.
So much easier.
We were like opposite.
I think we came from fromupbrings where it wasn't really
talked about.
It was definitely hard for us tonever really struggled with the
whole topic in our marriage, butdidn't really know how to deep
dive talk about it untilprobably year like 15.
(07:56):
We've been married 23.
And so that's when our intimatelife got better, was when we
finally ripped that band-aid offand like, let's just talk about
all these things and theemotional and all the things
that are even deeper than that.
And that's when marriage reallygets great, right?
When you're honest, vulnerable,you can share everything and you
can have those really awesometalks.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Yeah, and when we were able to talk about those
things, other things became alot easier.
So our communication completelychanged, which our marriage
completely changed as well, too.
So, I mean, if you can talkabout sex, you can most likely
talk about anything else, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
It's almost like all the other areas of intimacy just
get better and better when youcan talk about sexual intimacy.
I really feel like that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
Yeah.
And do you find there's kind ofa formula for being able to talk
about those difficult topics?
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
That's a great question.
I've never really thought of itthat way.
Um, I I don't know.
I thought that's a goodquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
I didn't think on that.
Yeah.
Well, I teach a formula, so I Iguess I set myself up to answer
that question.
I'd love to hear it.
Yeah, the formula I teach iscuriosity plus vulnerability
equals creativity.
So you can create anything inyour marriage if you're willing
to lead with curiosity and alsoyou're willing to be vulnerable.
(09:09):
And that's hard for peoplebecause you've really got to
think about, you've got to getcurious about yourself, which a
lot of people don't doubt.
Right, for sure.
And then get really curiousabout your spouse.
Like, how do you think this way?
Why do you think this way?
Where did this start?
You know, what are the storiesthat kind of created your
viewpoint on this?
And it's so fun.
(09:30):
Like, for example, not eventalking about sex.
My husband and I, one of thethings we love to do is go on
vacation and we love to walk onthe beach.
And I love to get his stories,like his money stories.
Like, tell me about when youwere young and how did your
parents spend money and how didyou see money and your work
ethic.
And I love to like gather upthese stories and learn how my
(09:51):
husband became who he was.
And you can apply all of thoseprinciples to sexual intimacy as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
And I think curiosity that you're stating
comes from unselfishness andcaring, because that takes the
spouse who actually cares likeyou do to understand him and to
get to know him.
Where a lot of marriages I feellike are getting very selfish,
and I'm like, I don't reallycare what you want, I care what
I want.
And that just doesn't work.
That main piece is like beingunselfish and actually really,
(10:19):
really caring.
Like we talk a lot about thelove languages.
Yesterday we did a podcast onopposite love language because
we're opposite.
And so the basis to that is thatI have to care and be unselfish
enough to understand what heneeds and what he wants, and
that's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
And ask those and ask those questions, and vice
versa for me, right?
Like, yeah, you know, asking howyou feel and why you feel that
way.
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
And you know, to be curious means you're very
unselfish and caring.
I really love that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
Yeah, and sometimes it's a little scary because you
might learn something about yourspouse that you don't
necessarily like.
Wait, hold on, hold on.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Well, give us like a few of yourfavorite things that maybe
surprised you or might surprisethe audience from the book.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Okay, so I was thinking I could share my
favorite chapter that I wrotethat is labeled.
Let me open to it really quick.
I'm just gonna read a few ofthese.
Um, my chapter number nine forthe women talking to the
husbands was healthy masculinityis super sexy.
And so I just wanted to share acouple of these points.
(11:26):
My first one is the emotional,emotionally availability is hot.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Like a man that can be emotionally available for his
wife, like so attractive.
Um, being a team player is alsohot.
Confident but not cocky is hot.
Owning it like a boss, liketaking responsibility for your
mistakes, approaching challengesas a real partner in the
marriage, super attractive,right?
(11:52):
Protector, but not possessor,super attractive.
Uh, vulnerability is actuallyreally strong.
Um, let her in, share yourfeelings, share your doubts,
dreams.
It's like actually reallyattractive.
Like we have found that so manyhusbands just kind of keep
things to themselves, were neverreally raised to share.
Being vulnerable wasn'tmasculine.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, they were taught just to hold things in
and be strong and don't shareyour weaknesses.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
And really getting on that page, right?
Like you're talking about.
Um, fit and healthy is alsoattractive.
Just caring and trying, I thinka lot of people let themselves
go or maybe get lazy in themarriage.
Um, provider beyond justfinances, like being a true
provider goes beyond it,showering her with emotional
support, companionship.
Um, provider of love andlaughter is attractive, and
(12:46):
communication is key.
And so that's one of my favoritechapters just because I think
that a lot of husbands strugglewith that whole I need to be the
masculine, I need to be theleader, I need to be over the
finances, I need to like thiswhen you can become like real
unified teammates in themarriage, that's really
attractive to a mature wife.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
That's so cool because I kind of dive into
that.
Well, the podcast episode I justreleased is called Marriage is
the ultimate team sport, and Iwatch so much team sports.
I mean, my husband and I areboth the product of you know
team sports.
We both played soccer in highschool.
He played in college, he coachesto this day our high school
(13:29):
soccer team, and my kids haveall played team sports, and so
in different ones, none of themsoccer, by the way.
Yeah, to our great dismay.
I mean, I always envision myselfas the ultimate soccer mom, and
I'm like, what is happening?
None of my children will playsoccer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
We have the same thing with golf.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Yeah, no, none of our kids golf, yeah.
It's so funny, but I do spend somuch time cheering for my kids
in these team sports, and it'sso cool to get the lessons and
watch them learn the lessons.
I've learned so much aboutmarriage and relationships from
these team sports.
And so, yeah, I think you'reright.
(14:09):
A lot of that it requires a lotof communication, it requires
vulnerability, it requiresunderstanding what your role is.
It's, you know, it'sappreciating each other's
differences, right?
You can't have a whole bunch offorwards, you wouldn't have any
defense, and you can't have awhole bunch of goalies because
then who's gonna score?
So it's really cool to gleanthese lessons.
(14:29):
And I think you're right, it'sreally, really hot.
All those things that you listedoften when you were reading
that, I was thinking about howthis past week I launched my
book that I think we're gonnatalk about on your podcast.
But it was like it was such ahuge week for me.
And it wasn't just the booklaunch, but also my kids had
important things that they weredoing.
(14:50):
We were feeding the volleyballteam and the soccer team, and
it's like getting to the end ofseason for them.
And my adult children wereworking on projects, and so we
drove down to Utah.
And it was just like weaccomplished so much in a week,
and I felt myself all week longlike holding out my fist and
like wanting to like fist bumpmy husband.
I'm like, we are such a greatteam, and it wasn't just like
(15:13):
physically what we wereaccomplishing, but emotionally
how we were supporting eachother and just all of it
together.
It was just like, whoa, this isso hot.
SPEAKER_02 (15:23):
Yeah, it's so hot, and it's all comes down to
communication.
Like, I bet you had a lot oftalks like, what is this gonna
look like?
What is your part?
What am I part?
How do we how do we keep theconversations going?
How do we keep the unif thecommunity feelings going?
You know what I mean?
Like it just really all comesdown to conversation, yeah, for
sure.
So yeah, yeah, anyways, there'ssome great stuff for the guys in
(15:45):
here.
Just like, hey, like you mightthink differently, but this is
really how so many actually mostwives feel.
Like this is coming from wives.
Like we did a lot of research onthis, right?
So, anyways, go talk to herabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:59):
Yeah, right.
Take our polls and do theresearch for it, it's amazing.
It's like the percentage ofwomen that feel this way, right?
Like it isn't like just a few,it's like the majority.
SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
Right, right.
Yeah, and I think what's cool isyou can read your book and be
informed about that.
But what really, really is gonnamake it hot is if you go to your
spouse and you're like, whatdoes this look like for you
actually?
Like, yes, in our marriage, howcan I support you in this way?
(16:30):
How can I make this a reality inour marriage?
Like, what does this look likefor the two of us and our needs
and wants, right?
Or what we're trying to createtogether, our goals, right?
So, yeah, you can take theinformation that's in that book,
but then customize it and makeit your own for your own
marriage because it's gonna lookdifferent for everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
And that's what we try to do.
It's like read the subject, readthe topic, read that little
short chapter, read it together,and then here are five questions
to go ask your spouse what doesthis look like to you?
Do you find these things thisway?
Or what would you add to thislist, right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
Yeah, we found a lot of couples are either buying the
book and reading it together, orthey each are buying a book and
then reading it and thendiscussing it, which is great.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Yeah, I just had this vision.
Like, can you imagine how hot itwould be if you're like on a
walk with your spouse who's beenreading that book, and all of a
sudden they're like asking youthese questions, and you're
like, wait, really?
Yeah, yeah, that would be atotal panty dropper.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
I don't I don't think that men realize like
certain conversations are soattractive, like for you to not
even the conversation itself,but for the fact that you would
like want to discuss that andlike put yourself, yeah.
Just even like come up with thatand care, right?
It starts with caring.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
So yeah, yeah, I love it.
Nick, what was surprising to youabout what you read in the book?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
That's not the first time, it won't be the last.
No, it's totally good.
It's totally good.
I, you know, I think Amy and Iare always constantly talking
about this, and so um, yeah, butI think I think still, yeah,
there's certain things thatsurprise me because I think we,
you know, a lot of times wehear, oh, this is what she
wants, but then you know, put itin the book and like, oh, you
know.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
So he got we I got done writing my section of the
book, and he's like, Well, letme read it.
And he's like, Wow, I learnedstuff.
Yeah, 23 years and I learnedstuff.
I'm like, what did you learn?
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Well, maybe maybe it's because as men, sometimes
we aren't the greatest atlistening, right?
So uh, but and and also as men,sometimes we just need to be
told, hey, here's what I needfrom you, or here's here's what
I want you to do.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
And a good man is like, Yeah, yeah, I'll do that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Like, so yeah, no, I I I thought the book was
phenomenal.
Um, like Amy said, yeah, I readthrough it.
I'm like, man, I I've learned alot in this book, you know, even
with what we do.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
And it's pretty straightforward.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
It's very straightforward, tells you
exactly.
I mean, leave you aren'tguessing after you read it,
right?
You know exactly what what to doand how to do it, and the the
conversation starters to promptgood conversations, the
questions to ask.
I think, I think that's a lot ofit too, as men, uh, we're afraid
of asking certain questions forfear of our spouse saying, Well,
(19:12):
why is he asking me thisquestion?
Where is he getting these ideas?
Or, you know, those types ofthings.
And so I I think having thosequestions are just awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (19:21):
When we got done with this book and we read
through and are like, okay,these are some really great
topics.
I think they're really importantto talk about.
But I feel like we need like apart two.
So what we did is we went andcreated in our uh a card deck
called Let's Talk About Sex, andwe have 150 conversation
starters that we actually sellwith the book that are all about
(19:44):
why you should just not justlike the conversations
themselves, which start startwith like emotional intimacy to
the sexual intimacy, but alsowhy having those conversations
is so important.
So I feel like the book and thecard deck go like hand in hand
because it's like deep divinginto almost everything.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Well, and the reason why those are so good um is
because it's a lot easier toread a question off of a book or
a card because then you'respout, you know, you can say,
hey, I'm reading this off abook.
It's all right, like it's a goodidea.
You can make a game out of it.
Yeah.
But this is this is telling meto ask you this question.
And then it just can create areally easy conversation.
(20:22):
I mean, we hear all the timelike, I cannot believe how much
easier this makes theseconversations to have.
And then as you start havingthem, naturally they're gonna,
you know, continue and getdeeper and deeper.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
Yeah, and I imagine there's a version of that in
your app as well.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
We did add the let's talk about sex card deck
questions into an app feature.
Yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
So yeah, because again, if couples can get
talking openly and have goodcommunication, I mean that's
that's I I feel like that's kindof the foundation to everything
in a good marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
It's like I was talking aboutcommunication.
Can you imagine watching afootball game where the
quarterback wasn't calling anyplays?
Like, how would anybody know ifwe're doing, are we doing a
running play?
Are we doing a passing play?
Like, who needs to be ready?
Where do we line up?
Like, who's the man in motion?
Like, you've got to be willingto huddle up and talk about,
(21:16):
communicate what is happening onthe field.
How do we readjust?
How do we, you know, all ofthese things are so, so, so
important.
And I think for couples, whetheryou're just starting out, which
is so good for, or you've beenmarried for decades.
Like, I still talk to coupleswho struggle to talk about these
things, and not because they'renot a great couple or they don't
(21:39):
love each other, their marriageisn't amazing.
It's just that we weren't taughtthis, it wasn't modeled for us,
and so we don't have a goodplaybook to follow.
So that's why I'm really excitedfor this book and to get it out
into people's hands because itreally is.
It's like a play-by-play.
It's like, yeah, but yeah, whatdo you need to do to win?
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Well, I would say most couples have a hard time
talking about certain things.
Like, I don't think it's just afew couples, I feel like it's
most couples.
And that doesn't mean they'regonna have a bad marriage or
anything like that necessarily,but their marriage could be so
much better if they could learnto communicate better.
And I think a lot of it is just,you know, like I said, fear of
what's my spouse gonna thinkabout me asking this question,
(22:22):
or it could be fear ofrejection, right?
Like, are they gonna reject me?
Are they gonna thinkdifferently?
Um, and it could be so manydifferent things.
But again, as as we learn tohave better communication, it's
amazing how much uh marriagejust overall gets better.
SPEAKER_01 (22:37):
Okay, so here's a very serious question.
What if you have one spousewho's really resistant and
they're like, I just don't wantto talk about this?
Or they've kind of created somesort of power dynamic in in the
relationship around sexualintimacy and they don't want to
mess with it.
And so, you know, maybe onespouse is picking up the book
and the other spouse is like, Idon't want to talk about it.
(23:00):
Then what?
SPEAKER_02 (23:01):
Yeah, that is the exact podcast we had an expert
on, marriage therapist of what,25 years on the other day to ask
that exact question.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Ooh, what did she say?
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
Happens because I literally know I'm like, I don't
know when someone's completelychecked down, doesn't want to
fix it, right?
And his answer was literallymarriage takes two.
Marriage takes two.
You have to have both bothpeople wanting to have a good
marriage for a good marriage tohappen.
(23:31):
So in that situation, like,like, say the husband doesn't
want to talk about these things,he's just kind of checked out,
or maybe it's the wife, eitherway, that one person can work on
themselves.
They can do what they can, youknow, everything they can do to
be healthy and strong.
But there comes a point whereyou have to get to a point where
you're like, I have needs, weneed to find a way to discuss
(23:52):
this.
It's baby steps, right?
Like, you have needs, I haveneeds, I know you want.
Like, that's the crazy thing isthat everyone got married to
have a passionate marriage.
Everyone wants a happy marriage.
Like, I know you want this too.
Where can we start?
Even if it's just literallylittle tiny baby steps, where do
we start and what do you feelcomfortable with?
And then hopefully that willgrow.
Because I think a lot ofhusbands or wives that didn't
(24:14):
grow up with that knowledge ofhow to communicate, how to talk
about it.
Like, if they can like kind ofjust start somewhere that makes
them feel safe, like thisconversation isn't so bad,
right?
And then it can grow better andbetter.
I mean, I don't feel like we hadany issues of communicating when
we got married, but how manypeople can just be like, I hope
I wish you would touch me there?
I wish you would focus on thisarea.
(24:35):
Like, that's kind ofembarrassing when you get
married to be like just tellingthem what you want, right?
And it took us years and yearsand years to rip that bandit
down.
And I I don't know if you knowour story, but like a year 15,
16, 17, somewhere in there, Ibought a bedroom game and I
literally said, I'm bored.
I'm bored.
You're bored with this, superoffended.
Like, wait, wait, you know, andit was a really awkward moment.
(24:59):
It was a couple days of like,I'm just kidding, I don't know
why I bought that.
I was ashamed, I wasembarrassed.
And he came back and he's like,Why would I deny like wanting to
better our intimate life?
And at the time I thought I wasjust like sexually broken, but
we were going through a lot ofemotional stuff together, and I
thought I was kind of broken.
We started even just thatconversation, like, I'm bored.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Oh, it changed everything.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
It wasn't that I was bored, it was that we were
missing so much emotionalconnection and emotional
conversations.
So sometimes it's totallydifferent than you think it's
gonna be.
Something, something else isbroken when you think
something's broken over here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
So well, the funny thing is, is we did it total
opposite.
Like, usually people would needto start talking about emotional
stuff and having betterconversations and figuring those
things out before their sexlife, they talk about their sex
life or before that gets better.
We kind of did it backwards, butit still worked the same way,
right?
Like once we started talkingabout sex, we could talk about
(25:55):
all these other hard topics thatwe were kind of ignoring and
things like that.
So I don't think it reallymatters how you start but
talking about it.
But getting getting back intoyour question, I think that's a
really tough question.
Like Amy said, um, it has to beboth of you wanting to talk
about that.
But I would say um sometimesit's hard just to dive into
(26:16):
things and start talking aboutcertain things.
If you can find out the reasonwhy your spouse is hesitant, you
know, maybe it's something thathappened in the past, maybe,
maybe it's things they'redealing with.
But if you can find out the whyand then start uh, you know,
approaching it from that aspectof figuring out the why, then
you can start getting gettinginto um figuring out the how,
(26:39):
right?
And so I think sometimes, youknow, people just get really
frustrated and they're like, whywon't you talk to me about this?
What, you know, and it's justlike banging a wall.
But if you can understand thereason why they're struggling
with that, then I think you canget into the, okay, how do we,
how do we start, you know,breaking down that barrier, so
to speak.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Because there are a lot of times barriers that keep
couples from being able tocommunicate effectively.
And so again, unless you knowwhat that barrier is, it isn't
it it's it's hard to progressand say, hey, let's just talk
about things until you getbarriers.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
Well, and whether you're a man or a woman, I think
we both need to feel safety,right?
Emotional safety is key.
So making your spouse feel likeyou're safe to share with me.
I'm right here, I'm not goinganywhere.
I love you for who you are.
Let's figure out why you feelthis way.
That's that's a great.
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
And I think our marriage is a good example.
I'm kind of uh the type ofperson that if something's
difficult to talk about, well,not anymore.
But in in in the past, in ourfirst in our marriage, if it was
a difficult conversation, I'dkind of just close up and you
know, shy away and let's nottalk about it.
Now I'm the complete opposite.
Like Amy's some probablysometimes like, hey, shut up.
I don't want to talk about now,you know what I mean.
(27:50):
Like now I want to talk abouteverything, but but it but I I
learned, you know, we broke downthose barriers, and now it's
just like we can we can talkabout anything.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Do you want to hear my really controversial answer?
And since it's my podcast, I getto talk about it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like sometimes,especially in our culture, we
get really comfortable thinkingthat, you know, we made
covenants, and so your partneris locked in, and maybe you're
(28:23):
not uncomfortable in your sexualarrangement, or you know, maybe
you're the lower desire partnerand you kind of have control,
and so nothing really you don'tfeel like anything needs to
change, and so bringing up thosetypes of conversations isn't
something that you want to dobecause you're not
uncomfortable.
And so, in my training andworking with couples, especially
(28:44):
because I have a lot of higherdesire partners that come to me
for counseling, and theirpartners don't want to come
because they don't want tochange the dynamic of how things
are, because they are in controlof that, you know, kind of
sexual relationship.
And so, what I work with theusually typically the higher
(29:05):
desire partner on is if theydon't feel uncomfortable,
they're not gonna come to thetable.
And so sometimes you have tomake some ultimatums, sometimes
you have to make some choicesthat are difficult or I don't
want to say threats, but you dohave to let your partner know in
a loving way that you areuncomfortable and that you're
(29:28):
not willing to provide somecomforts that your partner is
maybe used to unless they'rewilling to come to the table and
work on the things that need tobe worked on in the
relationship.
And so I get a lot of pushback,it's a very controversial
position.
However, I don't think that youshould get so complacent in your
(29:49):
marriage and so comfortable inyour covenants that you're not
willing to take intoconsideration your partner's
comfort.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
I one of the one of the things you hit on, which is
uh Um, the lower desire spousebeing comfortable with where
they're at.
Um, we've written articles,we've done podcasts, different
things like that, how the lowerdesire spouse typically controls
the if and when sex is going tohappen, right?
Because they're they'recomfortable with everything.
Why do I need to changeanything?
(30:17):
I'm I'm loving life this way.
And like you said, the higherdesire spouse is like this, you
know, I'm not feeling connected,I don't feel loved, I don't feel
desired.
And so hitting on that, we wealso see a lot of that, um, you
know, with the people we talkwith, and and it is, it's
finding finding that balance.
And I think, I think you'reright.
(30:37):
You sometimes you have to havethat tough love and say, hey,
look, this is how I'm feeling.
And I I need you to understandhow I'm feeling and listen to
how I'm feeling, uh, or at leastbe able to get it out.
Um and then they have theyobviously have to decide, okay,
am I gonna do I do I love myspouse?
Am I going to um listen to whatthey're saying and how am I
(30:59):
gonna react to that or what am Igonna do?
And um, you know, they have thatfree agency, of course.
But uh yeah, in marriage, youknow, it it's so hard because it
does take two to have the whatwe call ultimate intimacy,
right?
Two spouses that and and andthat that doesn't mean that the
lower desire spouse is alwaysgiving in or the higher desire
(31:21):
spouse is just making lovewhenever they want.
There's that balance and findingfinding that healthy balance
that works for for both of you.
And I think that's the way Goddesigned it, right?
Is to sacrifice on both ends andfind find that balance.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
Yeah, I don't think what you said should be
controversial at all.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
I don't either.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, I think in marriage we make promises, and
when we make promises andcommitments and covenants, like
you said, I I think that needsto be held to a high extreme.
And so we we deal with a lot ofthat.
I when I say marriage takes two,like it takes two.
It takes sitting down and havingreally hard conversations.
Like I'm not happy in in thisarea of our marriage.
(32:00):
This needs to be discussed,right?
This is very important for itjust to discuss, and both
spouses' needs and wants anddesires, whatever that is,
emotionally, sexually, whatever,it needs to be discussed.
It's very important.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Well, I come from divorced parents, right?
And so, you know, a lot of a lotof Christians feel like, oh, I
can't get divorced because ofthat covenant that I've made,
and therefore that's completelyoff the table.
But I also believe God wants youto be happy, right?
And my my parents that aredivorced are now in wonderful
marriages, they're bothextremely happy.
And uh, you know, like I guessthe point I'm getting at is
(32:35):
marriage, marriage does taketwo.
SPEAKER_02 (32:37):
It does take two.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
And and if one spouse isn't willing to um be a
part of that, be a part of that,it's it's really tough.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Yeah.
Hopefully we can fix that,right?
Hopefully, everything that we'reboth trying to do, books,
podcasting, the app, just likeeverything we're trying to get
out there.
Like, let's get people talking,let's get people thriving, let's
get both spouses starting tounderstand each other.
That's what it comes to.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I want to I want to just share real quick.
We got an email two days ago,and it was this guy that emailed
us, and he's like, Hey, we'vebeen listening to your podcast
and implementing the tools andthings.
And he's like, My wife and Ijust made love for the first
time in 10 weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (33:14):
Wow.
And like she she actually islike, Don't you just want to be
like, Congratulations, dude.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Well, not only that, but he's like, My wife is giving
me hugs, she's she's uh touchingme, she's like it's a totally
different.
And he's like, part of it waswe're learning the right tools,
right?
And so, you know, he's like, I'mlearning that I needed to step
it up in all these ways, and nowher reaction is exactly what I
yeah, exactly what I've beenhoping for.
(33:43):
And so that was a really coolemail.
And I think oftentimes it's justgetting the right tools and
understanding how to use thesetools can just be game-changing.
Because, like Amy said, I thinkfor the majority of couples out
there, even the ones that arereally struggling, both of them
want to have a happy, intimate,romantic marriage, but they just
don't have the tools, or there'sthings going on in the marriage
(34:06):
that are are obviouslyprohibiting that or causing
disconnect.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
So yeah, so good.
Okay, well, one of the besttools I think is the book, Let's
Talk About Sex.
So, can you give the listenershow do they find it?
I know I had a I I was lookingfor it and I was like, where do
I find this book?
You had to send me the link.
So let the listeners know howthey can get their hands on it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
So our book is at shop.ultimateintimacy.com.
That's where our all of ourproducts are, that's where our
card decks are, that's where ourall of our intimate stuff is.
Um, like I said, also the carddeck, which a lot of the
questions from this book arealso found on the Ultimate
Intimacy app.
You can download atultimateintimacy.com or just go
to the app store.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Yeah, and you can also access everything from
ultimateintimacy.com as well.
So that's a little bit easier toremember.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (34:56):
But yeah, and then you can reach out to us if you
have any questions at all, justAmy at ultimateintimacy.com and
we're happy to answer anyquestions you have.
SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Awesome.
Well, thank you guys so much foryour time today.
Thank you so much for theincredible work you're doing for
couples.
I love that you guys have theability to, you know, do polls
and talk to like massive groupsof people and get their
experience.
That is something I have notquite figured out how to get
engagement on.
(35:25):
So I'm glad that I can go toyour content and see, you know,
what people are reallystruggling with.
So thank you guys for theamazing work that you're doing.
And thanks for taking the timeto show up here today and go get
the book so you can have theseconversations and really dial it
in.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
(00:02):
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm really excited about our
guests today.
They are my good friends, Nickand Amy McKinley.
They have such a cool mission inthe world.
They have created an app calledthe Ultimate Intimacy App that
is specifically for couples,specifically for teaching
Christian-based values aroundintimacy and healthy intimate
(00:28):
practices for married couples.
And I'm so excited to dig intotheir content today.
Amy has also written a book witha partner that we'll talk about.
So welcome to the podcast, Nickand Amy McKinley.
How are you guys doing?
Great.
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Thank you so much for having us on.
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
We're excited.
I feel like it's been a longtime coming.
We've both had such busy thingshappening in our family, and
we're so similar.
And so it's been hard to connectour schedules, but I'm so glad
we finally did.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you again.
Yeah, we had, I think, well, youwere on our podcast a couple
years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Yeah, it's been a while.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So many fun things have happenedsince then.
SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Yeah.
You guys wrote a book.
Do you want to talk about yourbook?
SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
And yeah, so I was asked by our awesome friend Nate
Whitson.
He is just a great Christian mantrying to help married men
mostly just step it up in theirmarriages, just be the man that
God wants them to be.
And so he asked me to co-writeum the book, Let's Talk About
Sex.
And I was really excited topartner with him on this.
(01:37):
And it's 20 things Christianhusbands and wives wish their
spouse knew or would do, butdon't know how to tell you.
And so what we did was weactually pulled our audience and
found like what are the top 20things that wives want their
husbands to know about not justsex, but like intimacy in
general in marriage.
And then what are the top 20things that husbands want their
(02:00):
wives to know when it comes tointimacy in marriage?
So it wasn't just, it was fun todo the research, kind of found
out like what people like reallywant their spouse to know, but
sometimes have a hard timetelling them or really diving
deep into that category.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So well, what I think is great about the book
from an outsider reading it isum, you know, the men start
reading it and they're like,wait, this isn't talking about
sex.
You're like, it'll get to it.
Wait, this isn't talking aboutsex yet.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
You're like, you're exactly right because you know
the women start emotionally, youknow, like and you need to
understand that.
So yeah, even though it's let'stalk about sex, like we're
talking about like what it takesto like get a woman going, like
where that emotional connectioncomes through.
And so I would say probably thefirst 10 or 12 out of the 20
(02:47):
things are like this is how youthis is where foreplay really
starts, guys, you know.
So, anyways, it was it was funto write, and it's yeah, we're
excited to share a few parts.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Yeah, I can't wait to hear about it.
So, but just to clarify, so youguys pulled your audience, and
that's where you pulled the 20things from.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Yep.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (03:11):
And that's so cool because it's not just like
things you pulled out of theair, it's like literally what
people who listen to and watchyou guys and are part of the
app.
This is like what they wish theycould communicate, which is what
I'm all about, is like how totalk about these things because
we're not taught.
(03:32):
And even let's say we came froma family that was really healthy
around sexuality, we stillprobably didn't it wasn't
modeled for us how our parentstalked about sexual intimacy.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Because it's so that's not something, yeah, that
you're taught.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Well, we also have the other part of that, which is
our how our spouse was raised,right?
So we so we may have ourexperience, but then how was our
spouse raised and what's theirexperience, and how does that
dynamic fit in?
And for a lot of couples, thatcan be extremely difficult,
right?
Whether they were taught that,hey, it's bad, it's bad, it's
bad, and now all of a suddenyou're married and now it's
(04:07):
okay, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
So the problem we're finding with every single
situation that comes, like weget a lot of messages, a ton of
emails, we take a lot of pollsand surveys.
The problem is always, well,we're we're dealing with this or
this, or she does this, or hedoes this.
Have you talked about it?
Well, I don't really know how totalk about it.
I don't really know how to diveinto this conversation.
(04:28):
It's really awkward, or it justturns into a fight, or whatever.
The problem is, is that couplesdon't know how to like really,
really communicate aboutintimacy.
And so the great thing that weadded into our book is let's
talk about it.
So, yeah, we're going over somereally great topics to discuss,
but in the book, we decided toadd in like conversation
(04:52):
starters at the end of everychapter about that topic.
This is how you approach yourspouse and actually talk about
this exact thing.
Like we're trying to help you.
So it's literally like sexcommunication, intimacy
communication one-on-one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Like you're exactly right.
I mean, you know, like Amy said,95% of the time.
Well, I don't have you talkedabout it.
Well, I don't know what to sayor how to do that.
And we feel like almost anyanything can be resolved or
figured out with goodcommunication, but but it's
extremely hard to do.
Like, how do you start that?
Where do you learn that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
So yeah, and the thing I've noticed too, working
with couples is no two couplesare the same in this area.
Like everybody's desire profilesare different, their opinions
are different, their experienceare different, preferences.
And so, yeah, you've got to talkabout it because you know, and
here's what's really important.
(05:45):
I think we're gonna probablydive into this in the episode is
creating a safe space wherecouples can talk about it.
Like, I love talking to myhusband about this so much, but
one of the things he says heloves about me the most, like
one of his favorite things aboutour marriage is how open we are
about it.
(06:05):
And I never, I mean, I come froma very different religious
background, and so for me,healthy sexuality, I don't know
if I would call it healthysexuality, but open sexuality
was much more normal for me.
I saw it a lot more, I was muchmore exposed to like the body
(06:25):
and sex and those types ofthings.
So nothing really surprises me.
So when my husband's likesharing with me his most
intimate, you know, vulnerablethoughts and ideas, I never had
any type of reaction except for,oh, okay, cool.
unknown (06:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
And so he's always like, if I had married somebody
who couldn't handle like all ofme, I would have, you know, I
probably would have rebelled orgone crazy or something like
that.
And so I am really grateful forthat aspect of our relationship
and that part of my upbringingbecause nothing really surprises
me.
Like I can just, I can just rollwith it.
(07:01):
Like I'm not like, oh, that'sweird.
I'm like, oh, okay, well, cool.
Let's do it, you know.
And so I think that's becomesreally important that if you're
gonna open up theseconversations with your spouse,
which you absolutely should,it's about really figuring out
how to ground yourself, how tolike, you know, keep your
reactions, you know, very safeand understanding, inviting,
(07:25):
tolerant, and just gettingreally curious, asking lots of
questions, and let your spousecompletely reveal themselves to
you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:33):
That's what intimacy is, right?
Yeah, yes.
And it's a much easier said thandone.
So much easier.
We were like opposite.
I think we came from fromupbrings where it wasn't really
talked about.
It was definitely hard for us tonever really struggled with the
whole topic in our marriage, butdidn't really know how to deep
dive talk about it untilprobably year like 15.
(07:56):
We've been married 23.
And so that's when our intimatelife got better, was when we
finally ripped that band-aid offand like, let's just talk about
all these things and theemotional and all the things
that are even deeper than that.
And that's when marriage reallygets great, right?
When you're honest, vulnerable,you can share everything and you
can have those really awesometalks.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Yeah, and when we were able to talk about those
things, other things became alot easier.
So our communication completelychanged, which our marriage
completely changed as well, too.
So, I mean, if you can talkabout sex, you can most likely
talk about anything else, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
It's almost like all the other areas of intimacy just
get better and better when youcan talk about sexual intimacy.
I really feel like that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
Yeah.
And do you find there's kind ofa formula for being able to talk
about those difficult topics?
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
That's a great question.
I've never really thought of itthat way.
Um, I I don't know.
I thought that's a goodquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
I didn't think on that.
Yeah.
Well, I teach a formula, so I Iguess I set myself up to answer
that question.
I'd love to hear it.
Yeah, the formula I teach iscuriosity plus vulnerability
equals creativity.
So you can create anything inyour marriage if you're willing
to lead with curiosity and alsoyou're willing to be vulnerable.
(09:09):
And that's hard for peoplebecause you've really got to
think about, you've got to getcurious about yourself, which a
lot of people don't doubt.
Right, for sure.
And then get really curiousabout your spouse.
Like, how do you think this way?
Why do you think this way?
Where did this start?
You know, what are the storiesthat kind of created your
viewpoint on this?
And it's so fun.
(09:30):
Like, for example, not eventalking about sex.
My husband and I, one of thethings we love to do is go on
vacation and we love to walk onthe beach.
And I love to get his stories,like his money stories.
Like, tell me about when youwere young and how did your
parents spend money and how didyou see money and your work
ethic.
And I love to like gather upthese stories and learn how my
(09:51):
husband became who he was.
And you can apply all of thoseprinciples to sexual intimacy as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
And I think curiosity that you're stating
comes from unselfishness andcaring, because that takes the
spouse who actually cares likeyou do to understand him and to
get to know him.
Where a lot of marriages I feellike are getting very selfish,
and I'm like, I don't reallycare what you want, I care what
I want.
And that just doesn't work.
That main piece is like beingunselfish and actually really,
(10:19):
really caring.
Like we talk a lot about thelove languages.
Yesterday we did a podcast onopposite love language because
we're opposite.
And so the basis to that is thatI have to care and be unselfish
enough to understand what heneeds and what he wants, and
that's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
And ask those and ask those questions, and vice
versa for me, right?
Like, yeah, you know, asking howyou feel and why you feel that
way.
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
And you know, to be curious means you're very
unselfish and caring.
I really love that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
Yeah, and sometimes it's a little scary because you
might learn something about yourspouse that you don't
necessarily like.
Wait, hold on, hold on.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Well, give us like a few of yourfavorite things that maybe
surprised you or might surprisethe audience from the book.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Okay, so I was thinking I could share my
favorite chapter that I wrotethat is labeled.
Let me open to it really quick.
I'm just gonna read a few ofthese.
Um, my chapter number nine forthe women talking to the
husbands was healthy masculinityis super sexy.
And so I just wanted to share acouple of these points.
(11:26):
My first one is the emotional,emotionally availability is hot.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Like a man that can be emotionally available for his
wife, like so attractive.
Um, being a team player is alsohot.
Confident but not cocky is hot.
Owning it like a boss, liketaking responsibility for your
mistakes, approaching challengesas a real partner in the
marriage, super attractive,right?
(11:52):
Protector, but not possessor,super attractive.
Uh, vulnerability is actuallyreally strong.
Um, let her in, share yourfeelings, share your doubts,
dreams.
It's like actually reallyattractive.
Like we have found that so manyhusbands just kind of keep
things to themselves, were neverreally raised to share.
Being vulnerable wasn'tmasculine.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, they were taught just to hold things in
and be strong and don't shareyour weaknesses.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
And really getting on that page, right?
Like you're talking about.
Um, fit and healthy is alsoattractive.
Just caring and trying, I thinka lot of people let themselves
go or maybe get lazy in themarriage.
Um, provider beyond justfinances, like being a true
provider goes beyond it,showering her with emotional
support, companionship.
Um, provider of love andlaughter is attractive, and
(12:46):
communication is key.
And so that's one of my favoritechapters just because I think
that a lot of husbands strugglewith that whole I need to be the
masculine, I need to be theleader, I need to be over the
finances, I need to like thiswhen you can become like real
unified teammates in themarriage, that's really
attractive to a mature wife.
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
That's so cool because I kind of dive into
that.
Well, the podcast episode I justreleased is called Marriage is
the ultimate team sport, and Iwatch so much team sports.
I mean, my husband and I areboth the product of you know
team sports.
We both played soccer in highschool.
He played in college, he coachesto this day our high school
(13:29):
soccer team, and my kids haveall played team sports, and so
in different ones, none of themsoccer, by the way.
Yeah, to our great dismay.
I mean, I always envision myselfas the ultimate soccer mom, and
I'm like, what is happening?
None of my children will playsoccer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
We have the same thing with golf.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Yeah, no, none of our kids golf, yeah.
It's so funny, but I do spend somuch time cheering for my kids
in these team sports, and it'sso cool to get the lessons and
watch them learn the lessons.
I've learned so much aboutmarriage and relationships from
these team sports.
And so, yeah, I think you'reright.
(14:09):
A lot of that it requires a lotof communication, it requires
vulnerability, it requiresunderstanding what your role is.
It's, you know, it'sappreciating each other's
differences, right?
You can't have a whole bunch offorwards, you wouldn't have any
defense, and you can't have awhole bunch of goalies because
then who's gonna score?
So it's really cool to gleanthese lessons.
(14:29):
And I think you're right, it'sreally, really hot.
All those things that you listedoften when you were reading
that, I was thinking about howthis past week I launched my
book that I think we're gonnatalk about on your podcast.
But it was like it was such ahuge week for me.
And it wasn't just the booklaunch, but also my kids had
important things that they weredoing.
(14:50):
We were feeding the volleyballteam and the soccer team, and
it's like getting to the end ofseason for them.
And my adult children wereworking on projects, and so we
drove down to Utah.
And it was just like weaccomplished so much in a week,
and I felt myself all week longlike holding out my fist and
like wanting to like fist bumpmy husband.
I'm like, we are such a greatteam, and it wasn't just like
(15:13):
physically what we wereaccomplishing, but emotionally
how we were supporting eachother and just all of it
together.
It was just like, whoa, this isso hot.
SPEAKER_02 (15:23):
Yeah, it's so hot, and it's all comes down to
communication.
Like, I bet you had a lot oftalks like, what is this gonna
look like?
What is your part?
What am I part?
How do we how do we keep theconversations going?
How do we keep the unif thecommunity feelings going?
You know what I mean?
Like it just really all comesdown to conversation, yeah, for
sure.
So yeah, yeah, anyways, there'ssome great stuff for the guys in
(15:45):
here.
Just like, hey, like you mightthink differently, but this is
really how so many actually mostwives feel.
Like this is coming from wives.
Like we did a lot of research onthis, right?
So, anyways, go talk to herabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:59):
Yeah, right.
Take our polls and do theresearch for it, it's amazing.
It's like the percentage ofwomen that feel this way, right?
Like it isn't like just a few,it's like the majority.
SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
Right, right.
Yeah, and I think what's cool isyou can read your book and be
informed about that.
But what really, really is gonnamake it hot is if you go to your
spouse and you're like, whatdoes this look like for you
actually?
Like, yes, in our marriage, howcan I support you in this way?
(16:30):
How can I make this a reality inour marriage?
Like, what does this look likefor the two of us and our needs
and wants, right?
Or what we're trying to createtogether, our goals, right?
So, yeah, you can take theinformation that's in that book,
but then customize it and makeit your own for your own
marriage because it's gonna lookdifferent for everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
And that's what we try to do.
It's like read the subject, readthe topic, read that little
short chapter, read it together,and then here are five questions
to go ask your spouse what doesthis look like to you?
Do you find these things thisway?
Or what would you add to thislist, right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
Yeah, we found a lot of couples are either buying the
book and reading it together, orthey each are buying a book and
then reading it and thendiscussing it, which is great.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Yeah, I just had this vision.
Like, can you imagine how hot itwould be if you're like on a
walk with your spouse who's beenreading that book, and all of a
sudden they're like asking youthese questions, and you're
like, wait, really?
Yeah, yeah, that would be atotal panty dropper.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
I don't I don't think that men realize like
certain conversations are soattractive, like for you to not
even the conversation itself,but for the fact that you would
like want to discuss that andlike put yourself, yeah.
Just even like come up with thatand care, right?
It starts with caring.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
So yeah, yeah, I love it.
Nick, what was surprising to youabout what you read in the book?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
That's not the first time, it won't be the last.
No, it's totally good.
It's totally good.
I, you know, I think Amy and Iare always constantly talking
about this, and so um, yeah, butI think I think still, yeah,
there's certain things thatsurprise me because I think we,
you know, a lot of times wehear, oh, this is what she
wants, but then you know, put itin the book and like, oh, you
know.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
So he got we I got done writing my section of the
book, and he's like, Well, letme read it.
And he's like, Wow, I learnedstuff.
Yeah, 23 years and I learnedstuff.
I'm like, what did you learn?
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Well, maybe maybe it's because as men, sometimes
we aren't the greatest atlistening, right?
So uh, but and and also as men,sometimes we just need to be
told, hey, here's what I needfrom you, or here's here's what
I want you to do.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
And a good man is like, Yeah, yeah, I'll do that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Like, so yeah, no, I I I thought the book was
phenomenal.
Um, like Amy said, yeah, I readthrough it.
I'm like, man, I I've learned alot in this book, you know, even
with what we do.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
And it's pretty straightforward.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
It's very straightforward, tells you
exactly.
I mean, leave you aren'tguessing after you read it,
right?
You know exactly what what to doand how to do it, and the the
conversation starters to promptgood conversations, the
questions to ask.
I think, I think that's a lot ofit too, as men, uh, we're afraid
of asking certain questions forfear of our spouse saying, Well,
(19:12):
why is he asking me thisquestion?
Where is he getting these ideas?
Or, you know, those types ofthings.
And so I I think having thosequestions are just awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (19:21):
When we got done with this book and we read
through and are like, okay,these are some really great
topics.
I think they're really importantto talk about.
But I feel like we need like apart two.
So what we did is we went andcreated in our uh a card deck
called Let's Talk About Sex, andwe have 150 conversation
starters that we actually sellwith the book that are all about
(19:44):
why you should just not justlike the conversations
themselves, which start startwith like emotional intimacy to
the sexual intimacy, but alsowhy having those conversations
is so important.
So I feel like the book and thecard deck go like hand in hand
because it's like deep divinginto almost everything.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Well, and the reason why those are so good um is
because it's a lot easier toread a question off of a book or
a card because then you'respout, you know, you can say,
hey, I'm reading this off abook.
It's all right, like it's a goodidea.
You can make a game out of it.
Yeah.
But this is this is telling meto ask you this question.
And then it just can create areally easy conversation.
(20:22):
I mean, we hear all the timelike, I cannot believe how much
easier this makes theseconversations to have.
And then as you start havingthem, naturally they're gonna,
you know, continue and getdeeper and deeper.
SPEAKER_01 (20:33):
Yeah, and I imagine there's a version of that in
your app as well.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
We did add the let's talk about sex card deck
questions into an app feature.
Yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
So yeah, because again, if couples can get
talking openly and have goodcommunication, I mean that's
that's I I feel like that's kindof the foundation to everything
in a good marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
It's like I was talking aboutcommunication.
Can you imagine watching afootball game where the
quarterback wasn't calling anyplays?
Like, how would anybody know ifwe're doing, are we doing a
running play?
Are we doing a passing play?
Like, who needs to be ready?
Where do we line up?
Like, who's the man in motion?
Like, you've got to be willingto huddle up and talk about,
(21:16):
communicate what is happening onthe field.
How do we readjust?
How do we, you know, all ofthese things are so, so, so
important.
And I think for couples, whetheryou're just starting out, which
is so good for, or you've beenmarried for decades.
Like, I still talk to coupleswho struggle to talk about these
things, and not because they'renot a great couple or they don't
(21:39):
love each other, their marriageisn't amazing.
It's just that we weren't taughtthis, it wasn't modeled for us,
and so we don't have a goodplaybook to follow.
So that's why I'm really excitedfor this book and to get it out
into people's hands because itreally is.
It's like a play-by-play.
It's like, yeah, but yeah, whatdo you need to do to win?
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Well, I would say most couples have a hard time
talking about certain things.
Like, I don't think it's just afew couples, I feel like it's
most couples.
And that doesn't mean they'regonna have a bad marriage or
anything like that necessarily,but their marriage could be so
much better if they could learnto communicate better.
And I think a lot of it is just,you know, like I said, fear of
what's my spouse gonna thinkabout me asking this question,
(22:22):
or it could be fear ofrejection, right?
Like, are they gonna reject me?
Are they gonna thinkdifferently?
Um, and it could be so manydifferent things.
But again, as as we learn tohave better communication, it's
amazing how much uh marriagejust overall gets better.
SPEAKER_01 (22:37):
Okay, so here's a very serious question.
What if you have one spousewho's really resistant and
they're like, I just don't wantto talk about this?
Or they've kind of created somesort of power dynamic in in the
relationship around sexualintimacy and they don't want to
mess with it.
And so, you know, maybe onespouse is picking up the book
and the other spouse is like, Idon't want to talk about it.
(23:00):
Then what?
SPEAKER_02 (23:01):
Yeah, that is the exact podcast we had an expert
on, marriage therapist of what,25 years on the other day to ask
that exact question.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Ooh, what did she say?
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
Happens because I literally know I'm like, I don't
know when someone's completelychecked down, doesn't want to
fix it, right?
And his answer was literallymarriage takes two.
Marriage takes two.
You have to have both bothpeople wanting to have a good
marriage for a good marriage tohappen.
(23:31):
So in that situation, like,like, say the husband doesn't
want to talk about these things,he's just kind of checked out,
or maybe it's the wife, eitherway, that one person can work on
themselves.
They can do what they can, youknow, everything they can do to
be healthy and strong.
But there comes a point whereyou have to get to a point where
you're like, I have needs, weneed to find a way to discuss
(23:52):
this.
It's baby steps, right?
Like, you have needs, I haveneeds, I know you want.
Like, that's the crazy thing isthat everyone got married to
have a passionate marriage.
Everyone wants a happy marriage.
Like, I know you want this too.
Where can we start?
Even if it's just literallylittle tiny baby steps, where do
we start and what do you feelcomfortable with?
And then hopefully that willgrow.
Because I think a lot ofhusbands or wives that didn't
(24:14):
grow up with that knowledge ofhow to communicate, how to talk
about it.
Like, if they can like kind ofjust start somewhere that makes
them feel safe, like thisconversation isn't so bad,
right?
And then it can grow better andbetter.
I mean, I don't feel like we hadany issues of communicating when
we got married, but how manypeople can just be like, I hope
I wish you would touch me there?
I wish you would focus on thisarea.
(24:35):
Like, that's kind ofembarrassing when you get
married to be like just tellingthem what you want, right?
And it took us years and yearsand years to rip that bandit
down.
And I I don't know if you knowour story, but like a year 15,
16, 17, somewhere in there, Ibought a bedroom game and I
literally said, I'm bored.
I'm bored.
You're bored with this, superoffended.
Like, wait, wait, you know, andit was a really awkward moment.
(24:59):
It was a couple days of like,I'm just kidding, I don't know
why I bought that.
I was ashamed, I wasembarrassed.
And he came back and he's like,Why would I deny like wanting to
better our intimate life?
And at the time I thought I wasjust like sexually broken, but
we were going through a lot ofemotional stuff together, and I
thought I was kind of broken.
We started even just thatconversation, like, I'm bored.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Oh, it changed everything.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
It wasn't that I was bored, it was that we were
missing so much emotionalconnection and emotional
conversations.
So sometimes it's totallydifferent than you think it's
gonna be.
Something, something else isbroken when you think
something's broken over here.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
So well, the funny thing is, is we did it total
opposite.
Like, usually people would needto start talking about emotional
stuff and having betterconversations and figuring those
things out before their sexlife, they talk about their sex
life or before that gets better.
We kind of did it backwards, butit still worked the same way,
right?
Like once we started talkingabout sex, we could talk about
(25:55):
all these other hard topics thatwe were kind of ignoring and
things like that.
So I don't think it reallymatters how you start but
talking about it.
But getting getting back intoyour question, I think that's a
really tough question.
Like Amy said, um, it has to beboth of you wanting to talk
about that.
But I would say um sometimesit's hard just to dive into
(26:16):
things and start talking aboutcertain things.
If you can find out the reasonwhy your spouse is hesitant, you
know, maybe it's something thathappened in the past, maybe,
maybe it's things they'redealing with.
But if you can find out the whyand then start uh, you know,
approaching it from that aspectof figuring out the why, then
you can start getting gettinginto um figuring out the how,
(26:39):
right?
And so I think sometimes, youknow, people just get really
frustrated and they're like, whywon't you talk to me about this?
What, you know, and it's justlike banging a wall.
But if you can understand thereason why they're struggling
with that, then I think you canget into the, okay, how do we,
how do we start, you know,breaking down that barrier, so
to speak.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Because there are a lot of times barriers that keep
couples from being able tocommunicate effectively.
And so again, unless you knowwhat that barrier is, it isn't
it it's it's hard to progressand say, hey, let's just talk
about things until you getbarriers.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
Well, and whether you're a man or a woman, I think
we both need to feel safety,right?
Emotional safety is key.
So making your spouse feel likeyou're safe to share with me.
I'm right here, I'm not goinganywhere.
I love you for who you are.
Let's figure out why you feelthis way.
That's that's a great.
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
And I think our marriage is a good example.
I'm kind of uh the type ofperson that if something's
difficult to talk about, well,not anymore.
But in in in the past, in ourfirst in our marriage, if it was
a difficult conversation, I'dkind of just close up and you
know, shy away and let's nottalk about it.
Now I'm the complete opposite.
Like Amy's some probablysometimes like, hey, shut up.
I don't want to talk about now,you know what I mean.
(27:50):
Like now I want to talk abouteverything, but but it but I I
learned, you know, we broke downthose barriers, and now it's
just like we can we can talkabout anything.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Do you want to hear my really controversial answer?
And since it's my podcast, I getto talk about it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like sometimes,especially in our culture, we
get really comfortable thinkingthat, you know, we made
covenants, and so your partneris locked in, and maybe you're
(28:23):
not uncomfortable in your sexualarrangement, or you know, maybe
you're the lower desire partnerand you kind of have control,
and so nothing really you don'tfeel like anything needs to
change, and so bringing up thosetypes of conversations isn't
something that you want to dobecause you're not
uncomfortable.
And so, in my training andworking with couples, especially
(28:44):
because I have a lot of higherdesire partners that come to me
for counseling, and theirpartners don't want to come
because they don't want tochange the dynamic of how things
are, because they are in controlof that, you know, kind of
sexual relationship.
And so, what I work with theusually typically the higher
(29:05):
desire partner on is if theydon't feel uncomfortable,
they're not gonna come to thetable.
And so sometimes you have tomake some ultimatums, sometimes
you have to make some choicesthat are difficult or I don't
want to say threats, but you dohave to let your partner know in
a loving way that you areuncomfortable and that you're
(29:28):
not willing to provide somecomforts that your partner is
maybe used to unless they'rewilling to come to the table and
work on the things that need tobe worked on in the
relationship.
And so I get a lot of pushback,it's a very controversial
position.
However, I don't think that youshould get so complacent in your
(29:49):
marriage and so comfortable inyour covenants that you're not
willing to take intoconsideration your partner's
comfort.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
I one of the one of the things you hit on, which is
uh Um, the lower desire spousebeing comfortable with where
they're at.
Um, we've written articles,we've done podcasts, different
things like that, how the lowerdesire spouse typically controls
the if and when sex is going tohappen, right?
Because they're they'recomfortable with everything.
Why do I need to changeanything?
(30:17):
I'm I'm loving life this way.
And like you said, the higherdesire spouse is like this, you
know, I'm not feeling connected,I don't feel loved, I don't feel
desired.
And so hitting on that, we wealso see a lot of that, um, you
know, with the people we talkwith, and and it is, it's
finding finding that balance.
And I think, I think you'reright.
(30:37):
You sometimes you have to havethat tough love and say, hey,
look, this is how I'm feeling.
And I I need you to understandhow I'm feeling and listen to
how I'm feeling, uh, or at leastbe able to get it out.
Um and then they have theyobviously have to decide, okay,
am I gonna do I do I love myspouse?
Am I going to um listen to whatthey're saying and how am I
(30:59):
gonna react to that or what am Igonna do?
And um, you know, they have thatfree agency, of course.
But uh yeah, in marriage, youknow, it it's so hard because it
does take two to have the whatwe call ultimate intimacy,
right?
Two spouses that and and andthat that doesn't mean that the
lower desire spouse is alwaysgiving in or the higher desire
(31:21):
spouse is just making lovewhenever they want.
There's that balance and findingfinding that healthy balance
that works for for both of you.
And I think that's the way Goddesigned it, right?
Is to sacrifice on both ends andfind find that balance.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
Yeah, I don't think what you said should be
controversial at all.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
I don't either.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, I think in marriage we make promises, and
when we make promises andcommitments and covenants, like
you said, I I think that needsto be held to a high extreme.
And so we we deal with a lot ofthat.
I when I say marriage takes two,like it takes two.
It takes sitting down and havingreally hard conversations.
Like I'm not happy in in thisarea of our marriage.
(32:00):
This needs to be discussed,right?
This is very important for itjust to discuss, and both
spouses' needs and wants anddesires, whatever that is,
emotionally, sexually, whatever,it needs to be discussed.
It's very important.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Well, I come from divorced parents, right?
And so, you know, a lot of a lotof Christians feel like, oh, I
can't get divorced because ofthat covenant that I've made,
and therefore that's completelyoff the table.
But I also believe God wants youto be happy, right?
And my my parents that aredivorced are now in wonderful
marriages, they're bothextremely happy.
And uh, you know, like I guessthe point I'm getting at is
(32:35):
marriage, marriage does taketwo.
SPEAKER_02 (32:37):
It does take two.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
And and if one spouse isn't willing to um be a
part of that, be a part of that,it's it's really tough.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Yeah.
Hopefully we can fix that,right?
Hopefully, everything that we'reboth trying to do, books,
podcasting, the app, just likeeverything we're trying to get
out there.
Like, let's get people talking,let's get people thriving, let's
get both spouses starting tounderstand each other.
That's what it comes to.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I want to I want to just share real quick.
We got an email two days ago,and it was this guy that emailed
us, and he's like, Hey, we'vebeen listening to your podcast
and implementing the tools andthings.
And he's like, My wife and Ijust made love for the first
time in 10 weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (33:14):
Wow.
And like she she actually islike, Don't you just want to be
like, Congratulations, dude.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Well, not only that, but he's like, My wife is giving
me hugs, she's she's uh touchingme, she's like it's a totally
different.
And he's like, part of it waswe're learning the right tools,
right?
And so, you know, he's like, I'mlearning that I needed to step
it up in all these ways, and nowher reaction is exactly what I
yeah, exactly what I've beenhoping for.
(33:43):
And so that was a really coolemail.
And I think oftentimes it's justgetting the right tools and
understanding how to use thesetools can just be game-changing.
Because, like Amy said, I thinkfor the majority of couples out
there, even the ones that arereally struggling, both of them
want to have a happy, intimate,romantic marriage, but they just
don't have the tools, or there'sthings going on in the marriage
(34:06):
that are are obviouslyprohibiting that or causing
disconnect.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
So yeah, so good.
Okay, well, one of the besttools I think is the book, Let's
Talk About Sex.
So, can you give the listenershow do they find it?
I know I had a I I was lookingfor it and I was like, where do
I find this book?
You had to send me the link.
So let the listeners know howthey can get their hands on it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
So our book is at shop.ultimateintimacy.com.
That's where our all of ourproducts are, that's where our
card decks are, that's where ourall of our intimate stuff is.
Um, like I said, also the carddeck, which a lot of the
questions from this book arealso found on the Ultimate
Intimacy app.
You can download atultimateintimacy.com or just go
to the app store.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Yeah, and you can also access everything from
ultimateintimacy.com as well.
So that's a little bit easier toremember.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (34:56):
But yeah, and then you can reach out to us if you
have any questions at all, justAmy at ultimateintimacy.com and
we're happy to answer anyquestions you have.
SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Awesome.
Well, thank you guys so much foryour time today.
Thank you so much for theincredible work you're doing for
couples.
I love that you guys have theability to, you know, do polls
and talk to like massive groupsof people and get their
experience.
That is something I have notquite figured out how to get
engagement on.
(35:25):
So I'm glad that I can go toyour content and see, you know,
what people are reallystruggling with.
So thank you guys for theamazing work that you're doing.
And thanks for taking the timeto show up here today and go get
the book so you can have theseconversations and really dial it
in.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Yeah, thank you so much.
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Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com