September 9, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife explores how moving beyond validation-seeking creates deeper, more authentic intimate connections in marriage, explaining that true intimacy requires embracing differences rather than demanding constant agreement.
• Distinguishing between validation and true intimacy in relationships
• Understanding the three unhealthy relationship patterns: pressuring our partner, yielding to avoid conflict, or creating parallel lives
• Recognizing that we marry people for their differences but then often resent those same differences
• Learning to weather invalidation without falling apart or becoming defensive
• Developing the capacity to truly listen to our partner's perspective without immediately defending ourselves
• Identifying our "losing strategy" – our default response under pressure that undermines connection
• Approaching conflict with curiosity about our partner's experience rather than taking it personally
• Beginning difficult conversations by acknowledging where our partner is right about us
• Understanding marriage as a spiritual journey that expands our capacity to love and be known
Get your copy of Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife's new book "That We Might Have Joy: Sexuality as a Path to Spirituality for Latter-day Saints" available September 30th on Amazon or through her website at finlayson-fife.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and I am super, super, super
giddy about our guest today.
I'm thrilled to be joined by DrJennifer Finlayson-Fyfe, a
therapist, coach and author ofthe new book that we Might have
Joy Sexuality as a Path toSpirituality for Latter-day
Saints.
She's helped thousands ofindividuals and couples create
(00:22):
deeper, more meaningfulmarriages.
Today we're going to discussone of the most
thought-provoking chapters,chapter five, which is called
Intimacy Beyond Validation.
So I'm sure you don't have afavorite, but if you did have to
name a favorite, what do youthink would be your favorite
chapter?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh gosh, my favorite chapter is probably chapter nine
, which is toward an embodiedsensual faith.
So it's a little provocativethat title, but that's probably
my favorite.
But chapter five is a reallygood one.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I think it's a good one because I think it applies
to literally everyone.
Yeah it does it's hard to not.
I think it's hard to skip thisstep.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it is really.
I mean, I lay out in the firsthalf of the book a lot of the
inherited messages that haveinterfered with our capacity to
be at peace with our sexuality,our capacity for intimacy in a
marriage, even just peace withourselves as embodied beings.
So I kind of lay out what someof these false traditions are,
how they've hindered us, how weget stuck in our desire for
(01:23):
approval.
And then chapter five is kindof when it shifts to how do we
actually develop our ability tolove another person, to know
another person, and it'sinvolves a lot of invalidation.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think everyone's gonna love
this conversation because itspeaks to one of the deepest
desires that we all have ashumans, which is to feel known
and deeply connected.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, we're just born with thatdesire right Belonging to be in
connection with each other.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And I think it's.
It's very telling too, becausewe want to feel connected to
ourselves and we want to feelindividual, but we also want our
spouse to be connected to us,and we want to feel individual,
but we also want our spouse tobe connected to us and accept us
as an individual, and so it'slike that tug and pull that we
all that's always going to bethere.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That's right.
It's a fundamental tension torelationships and especially
fundamental to marriage, becausehow your spouse feels about you
deeply matters, but also tofeel free while being married
also deeply matters to ourhappiness, and so the challenge
of how do I be true to you andtrue to myself is fundamental.
(02:37):
It's a fundamental question ofmarriage, and the happiest
people, the people that are mosthappily married, grapple with
that question in a way wherethey make room for each other to
be individuals but also staytrue to the relationship.
And that's a creative,courageous process, but one
that's easy to just resent,because it involves a lot of
(02:58):
invalidation.
That is, I'm not just going toget you to reinforce me at every
step.
You're not going to just agreewith everything I want, and so
the challenge of that can beeasy to just be upset about.
I married the wrong person.
If I married the right one,they would want the right things
, but if we can understand it asfundamental to the project of
marriage and intimaterelationships, then we can
(03:20):
utilize it more to growspiritually, to grow in our
capacity to be at peace withinour own skin and with another
person.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, and that's so what this chapter is about.
You talk about intimacy beyondvalidation, so can you explain
what that means and why?
Validation, which is somethingthat we all want, like we all
want acceptance and love, andsomebody who just love us for
who we are, right, can actuallyget in the way of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah.
So one thing I would start withis that in our culture we often
confuse intimacy withvalidation.
That is, if a relationship'sintimate, then it's like I
accept everything that you thinkand feel and I'm here to
reinforce you and validate whythat is a perspective that makes
sense, and then you'll do thesame for me and that's an
(04:09):
indicator that we are a goodcouple or that we have an
intimate relationship.
And, of course, there isnothing wrong with validation.
It feels amazing, it's great toget it when it's honest.
But when we make intimacy I'msorry, when we make validation
the measure of the relationshipor what it is we're trying to
extract from our partner, itforces the marriage to either be
(04:31):
dishonest or it drivesresentment into it, because
nobody walks around justvalidating their spouse 24-7.
Nobody feels good abouteverything their spouse wants.
Because we are drawn todifference and we go and, you
know, marry someone.
In fact, the reason we findthem compelling is because they
(04:52):
represent mystery and difference.
And so when we marry into that,well then it's like wait, why
aren't you going to bed at theright time?
Why aren't you, you know,cleaning the house in the right
way?
Those differences start toemerge and they're difficult and
so when we are children, whenwe are toddlers, if we are loved
, well, we're just accepted forour existence.
(05:13):
Like you're precious becauseyou exist.
You're precious because you'rea divine being on this planet
and you can throw food and yourparents swoon.
Okay, like, everything you areis amazing and it's very
important stage because you aregiven, you're reflected back,
your divine worth.
Right that you're just preciousbecause you exist.
But of course, as we mature,then people start to expect more
(05:35):
and you have to keep yourclothes on and you can't put
your hands down your pants andthere's just more and more
expectation.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
There's more expected for you to be cute.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So absolutely, you have to do a lot more to be cute
.
And then we hit puberty and ourbodies are changing and we feel
awkward and self conscious andwe long for this feeling of just
pure acceptance.
And so when we fall in love, weget it again.
It's like you walk into theroom and the one that you are in
love, with lights up.
(06:05):
They're so happy you're thereand they and you know you
reinforce in each other the most, the deepest sense of
acceptance and valuing of theother person, and it feels
amazing because it's like I getto belong to myself and you find
it delightful, and I get to bewith you and it's a wonderful
part of a relationship.
It's the inspiration of amarriage.
It gives you the picture ofwhat the marriage can be.
(06:31):
But then, of course, as youmove in together and start
creating a life together andthat proverbial honeymoon ends,
you're up against those annoyingdifferences, Like wait a minute
, like why aren't you justreinforcing me?
And that's when the marriage is.
You've gone from theinspiration into the
disillusionment, and that's whenthe marriage is.
You've gone from theinspiration into the
disillusionment, and it's avaluable disillusionment.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
We talk a lot about Terry Reel's stages on this.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes, exactly.
So you go from the love withoutknowledge phase to the
knowledge without love phase,and it hurts.
And so how we handle thatinvalidation has everything to
do with whether or not we growinto the love with knowledge
stage, whether or not we growinto the capacity for intimacy
and validation.
(07:13):
Okay now, I don't mean to sayyou get validated all the time,
but that I can know who you are,I can know how you're different
than me, I can know that youwant things that don't
immediately validate me, butlove you anyway.
And in order to get into thatkind of an intimate marriage
where I really can know youdifferences and all, we have to
(07:34):
grow out of our need and desirefor validation to grow into the
ability to love and be loved, toknow and be known, and these
are capacities we developthrough the revelation of what
is true in the marriage, likethat okay, how am I going to
deal with the fact that youbelieve something in a different
way than I do and in a way thatstresses me out?
(07:55):
Or how am I going to deal withthe fact that you approach
sexual intimacy in a differentway than I do and it's not what
I want?
And so how do we build anhonest bridge across these
differences?
And that requires, in a sense,holding your own while still
being flexible.
So that is, I'm not going tobetray myself, because when we
need validation too much, we'lldo one of three things.
(08:17):
We either pressure our partnerto do what we want If you love
me, you wouldn't make a big dealabout this.
You do what I want.
Or we yield Okay, I'm just notgoing to.
I'm just going to do what wewant.
If you love me, you wouldn'tmake a big deal about this.
You do what I want.
Or we yield Okay, I'm justgoing to do whatever they want.
I just don't want them to bemad at me, I'll just do it, even
though I resent, okay.
Or we just live parallel lives,we don't push ourselves into
real contact with one another,and all three of those are very
(08:40):
human, very understandableresponses, but we don't have
enough friction to then forge anhonest relationship, an
intimate marriage, and so thatfriction is valuable because it
allows you to refine who you are.
I mean, it really is like manyof the places where my husband
has not validated.
I don't mean that he's beingmean, he's just saying no,
(09:02):
that's not fair, or I don'tagree with that, or this really
matters to me and I never likedthose moments.
It's just saying, no, that'snot fair, or I don't agree with
that, or this really matters tome, and you know I never liked
those moments.
It's not like oh.
Thank you for your honesty.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Thanks for telling me how I'm ruining your life.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
I mean, my usual instinct isthe first round to kind of try
to convince him why he's wrong.
But you know, but when amarriage stays honest, well then
you have to grapple with.
Okay, I don't think I'm beingfair here.
I think that he has a pointright, or sometimes it may mean
like no, I think that I'myielding too much on this and I
(09:35):
really need to speak to thispiece.
Right, but that's all a part ofcreating a solid, reliable,
trustworthy relationship,because it's based in honesty,
it's based in truth.
It's an uncomfortable process,but it's essential to developing
real, open-heartedrelationships and peace with
(09:55):
ourselves and a spouse, which isthe greatest thing we can forge
in our lives, because it's tohave a home and in sex, it's to
have a home, in sex too, that Ican be myself here and I can
find acceptance not in thetwo-year-old way, although it's
reminiscent of it, because therereally is acceptance in a good
marriage, but it's based inwisdom, it's based in true love,
(10:17):
not in just a reflexive need toget approval whether or not
it's real.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it's so much I feel like in this chapter hinges
around the ability to share orhave a voice in the marriage.
Yeah, it's the three thingsthat you talked about, like the
three, the, either the controlor the not having a voice.
Yes, it's all about, like, howdo I make my voice heard but
(10:43):
also make room for your voice?
That's right.
That's right that you're bothhave a voice.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, you're increasing the intelligence of
the marriage by bringing in atrue perspective.
And it doesn't mean like, oh, Iknow I got it all right.
Like I just had a conversationwith someone that I really care
about yesterday who was having anegative response to me and she
was like I may be wrong, so Ijust I just need to tell you how
I'm feeling.
And she felt apologetic forsaying it, but I was like I am
(11:11):
so glad that you said thatbecause you're right, like I was
missing that.
I feel genuinely bad aboutmissing that.
And she was like I still feelkind of bad that I brought it up
and I'm like I am so gratefulyou brought it up.
Like I want to see myself, Iwant to see my impact, I want to
be fair, and that's made usboth better by having that real
(11:32):
information between us, where,if you were just trying to
manage it like that would be badfor you but also bad for me,
because I'm not then privy to myimpact, and so that's how you
create.
It's never comfortable.
You know, gosh, like I neverlike saying things.
I know somebody doesn't want tohear, even if I think they need
to be said, and I never likehearing them either.
I mean, there's nothingcomfortable about it, but it's
(11:55):
valuable, and if you canunderstand how powerful it is in
forging real peace, well, wecan lean into it more.
We can understand it.
It's the tension we need tostep towards to actually get
stronger.
And if you think about allthings, we get stronger.
Intention, we get stronger Likeyou go to the gym and you do
exactly the thing where you'reweak.
(12:16):
That's how you build capacityIn our relationships.
It's like seeing things that wehaven't yet seen, understanding
our blind spots speaking upwhen we'd rather just shove
something down, but whatactually happens is real
strength grows in its place, andso that is the process of
spiritual development.
In my opinion.
It's the process of relationaldevelopment, and it's what makes
(12:38):
us have more capacity forintimacy in our lives, not just
in a marriage, but with ourchildren, like to know them, to
understand their experience, tohave more open hearted
relationships with friends, withfamily, and so you know it's
uncomfortable but highlyvaluable.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, so you're right that our spouses often see our
blind spots more clearly than wedo, so why do you think it's so
hard for us to receive thatfeedback without getting
defensive, taking it personallyfalling apart, I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
first of all, let's just start.
It's hard Invalidatingconversations.
They're hard.
Our ego does not like them.
I mean because change is hardand self-awareness is
disorienting and none of uslikes to feel like, oh, I made a
big mistake.
I mean, nobody likes thatfeeling.
And because we connect our valuesometimes so much with not
(13:31):
getting things wrong, and so forall those reasons, the ego's
there to kind of fend off themessage or just crumple into a
ball of shame and just shrinkfrom it, and so, even if that
message is given in the bestpossible way, it's just
uncomfortable.
We don't like it.
So there's that.
But then often our spouse isfocused on something that is in
(13:52):
fact true, but they're using itto hide from a part of
themselves, right, so we focuson what they're getting wrong
about us to not deal with whatthey're getting right about us
right, and so they're oftenfiltering it through their own
lens, through their ownself-justification, and so it
becomes really really easy tothen be like oh yeah, but you
think that because blah, blah,blah, blah, blah and you might
(14:14):
be dead on, okay, but you'realso using that to not get at
what is actually true in whatthey're saying, the fact that
it's not perfectly true or thatit's filtered through an
indulgence in them, makes itvery easy to just reject it, not
deal with it.
And so for all those reasons,and then I think you know, the
ego loves control and we seekcontrol by yielding, by
(14:36):
pressuring, by distancing.
Those are all attempts at akind of control, and so when
we're invited into deeper truth,we're letting go of a certain
kind of control and we justdon't like that.
We're like afraid if I admitthis, will they say that I'm
unworthy, they don't love meanymore.
Does it prove I'm a loser?
Am I letting go of some view ofmyself or that they might have
(14:58):
of me?
If I acknowledge this, we'retrying to control something and
thinking it's going to keep usin a better place, but by
clinging to it we actually arelimiting our strength, we're
actually limiting the freedomthat we would have in our lives,
but it still is very, verytempting, that's for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
So I work with a lot of engaged and newlywed couples
in my practice and like to helpthem prepare for marriage right.
So do you have anyrecommendations for how to help
them avoid getting into thisvalidation seeking dynamic just
right from the start?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, well, I think first of all it's just valuable
to understand it as reallynormal.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So Almost necessary.
I feel like it's almostdevelopmental.
It is.
That's like the courting stageis validation.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's right so chapter six is all about our
emotional development and how wemove through different stages
of what we're seeking.
And stage two, in the way Iwrite about in the book, is what
I call the social stage, andit's where we are highly
validation dependent and seekinga validation.
And that's a necessary stage ofour development, but it's very
(16:05):
much limits our capacity forintimacy, as in knowing and
being known, because our senseof self is kind of walking
around on everybody else.
And this is especially true inromance, like, first of all,
falling in love is kind of avalidation based activity.
And then we're sharing oursexuality and all we want is for
our spouse to say everythingyou are is absolute perfection
(16:27):
and I 100% adore you, and sowe're very, very.
It's very painful to face anyrejection there because it's so
core, we're sharing so much ofourselves, and so this yearning
for validation is 100% normaland any good marriage has a lot
of honest validation in it.
So again, I'm not saying thatvalidation is a bad thing by any
(16:50):
stretch.
But the problem is, if weprioritize getting validation
over moving towards what is true, moving towards what is fair
with one another, creatingsomething honest between us and
our spouse, then we will getless and less and less
validation as time goes on andwe will feel more and more
lonely.
So I think with newlyweds it'simportant to understand like,
(17:12):
first of all, the validation isa great thing, it's legitimate
to want that validation, butthat invalidation is going to
come pretty quickly If themarriage is honest and I don't
mean to say it's going to be allinvalidation, that's for sure.
But if the marriage is honest,you're going to be coming up
against differences, and how youhandle those differences is
(17:34):
really what matters.
It's not the fact of them,because very likely you married
someone who's quite differentthan you in a lot of ways, and
so if you're creating a spacethat you can both be at peace in
, it's going to mean dealingwith the ways that you feel
limited or frustrated or thatyou wish things were different,
and it doesn't mean that you areright and they are wrong, but
(17:56):
that coming into thesecollaborative conversations is
important.
So it's like valuing conflictNow, not contempt, not cruelty,
but conflict is aboutdifferences, bumping up against
each other, and that is arefining process and one to
value.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I love that because one of the chapters in my book
is that if we're fighting,there's something wrong, right
or like conflict is bad right,and so it's like so important to
realize that conflict is sonecessary in order to get where
you want to go, to get theintimacy part.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yes, exactly, exactly yeah.
And we're designed to bedifferent.
We're designed to bringparticular gifts and with those
gifts come liabilities also.
So in a marriage, you oftenwere drawn to them for their
gifts, not their liabilities,but their liabilities will come
with those gifts, just as yoursdo.
(18:51):
And so it's like, okay, how do Ilove a whole person?
Like it's not really fair tosay I only love you for the good
parts, okay, and I'm going toresent you for the lesser parts.
Well, what about in me?
It's the same is true here.
And so how do I love a wholeperson?
And in learning to do that,there's also a self-acceptance
that comes that I also am not.
You know, like learning to lovean imperfect other can bring
(19:14):
with it the gift of learning tolove your imperfect self.
And that's not to indulge it orto say that you know that
there's nothing to grow there,but that we're in this important
project of learning how to lovein the face of limitation,
humanity, differences, and thatmarriage is one of the most
powerful ways to be in the thickof those lessons.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, they say it's a people growing machine, right?
Yes exactly so.
For those of us who are alreadymarried, what are some of the
signs that a couple is stuck invalidation, seeking rather than
pursuing genuine intimacy?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Resentment, loneliness, these are all have a
lot I could say about all ofthem.
Yeah, that one person is reallyunhappy and the other is happy
these are all ways in which itgets expressed.
Like one is giving too much,they feel that they're
disappearing in the marriage.
The other person is like youknow, I had a couple that came
(20:10):
in once and he was like we'revery, very happy, you know, the
only problem is she's miserableMeaning he was saying we're very
happily married but she'sdepressed and unhappy and of
course that's a big problem.
Happily married, but she'sdepressed and unhappy, and of
course that's a big problem.
What I think he wasn't keepingtrack of was how much he was
taking in the marriage.
That wasn't all his fault,because she was so much of a
(20:30):
yielder and took some safety inyielding and kind of preferred
to just march to someone else'sdrumbeat right, because there's
a certain amount of I don't haveto self define if I'm just the
one that's helping but I thinkthat she felt like she was
disappearing in her own life,disappearing in her own marriage
and therefore depressed and nothappy and feeling like she was
being taken for granted.
(20:51):
So I think that you know forhim, this couple.
It was him waking up to thefact that they were in an
imbalanced system and he wasreally taking more than his
share and that it was a falsehappiness in a way, because he
hadn't really learned to loveand make room for another, just
as she hadn't learned to makeroom for herself.
And so that can be one of them.
(21:13):
Resentment is an easy one.
A lot of times we'll like givethings, but then we actually
hope that we'll be acknowledgedor validated, and then we resent
when we're not or we're tooafraid to stand up for something
.
So we just resent instead.
Sometimes we're too entitledand then we resent.
We expect too much yielding,too much giving, and when our
spouse holds their own, weresent.
And then I think you knowsometimes just the parallel
(21:35):
lives, like we're not actuallypushing ourselves into contact
enough to forge a marriage.
And so we may be, enact amarriage, but we don't really
know each other.
We don't really feel that we canbe ourselves Like.
This is something I'm kind ofshocked me when I first started
doing the work I was doing.
Is that how much people weren'tactually sharing their honest
(21:56):
selves, how much they would hidefrom their partner realities
about themselves.
You know how much they werekind of lying going to bed at
night next to not a friend butsomebody that they felt they
really that really didn't knowthem and they didn't really know
.
Because it was easier to kindof enact a role than to bring an
honest, full self and it's hardto tolerate the conflict.
(22:19):
But I think it's even harder toshare a bed with someone that
you don't feel is your friend,that really knows you, and share
a life with someone that youdon't feel is your friend and
knows you, and by friendship Idon't mean we're all the same,
but that we have a basic honestconnection, even in the face of
how we do life differently evenin the face of how we do life
(22:42):
differently.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, that's really interesting because I think you
get that dynamic when you havetwo conflict avoidant or two
kind of walled off people.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yes, that's right and so yes, you know it's like.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
It's like you want to be lying next to a friend, but
you're also not giving enough ofyourself for that friendship to
, to blossom.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
That's right.
I brought up a couple like that, right in the beginning of the
of the book, where they lookedin some ways like the pillars of
the community because they were, you know, dutiful and didn't
ever fight.
And yet the marriage wassterile, like it was deeply
lonely.
There was tremendous amounts ofresentment, but they were.
It was never articulated, itjust came out in kind of formal
(23:20):
distance and, yeah, they wereboth conflict avoidant and so
they preferred to just kind ofshove down their feelings than
to bring them to each other andit looks loving, but it had
tremendous costs to the marriageand to them individually.
There wasn't any real peace,even though they were trying to
enact peace by not bringing updifficult things.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I see that happen a lot, like a lot
of times, couples will come intomy office and they're like well
, we never fight.
And I'm like, well, why don'tyou fight?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I'm a little more worried about that statement
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah.
And oftentimes we people havelearned, like, I'm sure, as you
talk about in your book is that,oh, we are going to be the
right kind of couple by not everfighting.
And again, I don't mean dragout cruel, you know fighting but
honesty is going to inviteconflict, tension, and again,
truth and love always have to gotogether.
(24:16):
So I'm speaking the truth, notto get back at you, but like to
actually forge somethingsustainable with you.
That's a different meaning,Like I'm saying hard things not
because I want you to feel bad,but because I want us to do.
I's a different meaning, LikeI'm saying hard things not
because I want you to feel bad,but because I want us to do, I
want us to thrive, I want us tobe well.
And so it's hard for me to sayit, but I've got to talk about
it, even if I'm wrong.
(24:36):
There's times where I've notwanted to say things that make
me uncomfortable.
What I mean is I'm afraid maybethis will reveal a limited part
of me if I say that and ofcourse you need to think about,
you know, is there, is this afair position or not?
But even when I haven't beensure, I still have thought it's
better to talk about it in ahumble way.
(24:57):
I don't mean like accusing, butlike I'm struggling with this
thing because even if it's deadwrong in the saying of it, it
gets clarified.
Like I can like figure out ifI'm being unfair and
self-correct, but if it justfesters in my mind we always
make sense to ourselves, right,yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And so that's I think that's one of the greatest
gifts of marriage is because youcan put it.
If you trust your partner andyou trust in the friendship and
you trust in the honesty there,you can put it out there and be
like I don't know, you know, inmy head this makes perfect sense
.
But if I put it out here on thetable and we discuss it.
Then what is it?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, exactly, and I think it's just again.
It takes a lot of humility.
I talk about that quite a bitin chapter five Like humility is
not one down, but it's like I'mreceptive, I'm not going to
pride myself on the idea thatI've got it all worked out or
that I don't make mistakes, likeI'm genuinely trying to sort
out my own mind here and thatwe're bringing this into honest
(25:58):
contact with each other becausethat can help you work out
something.
That's better.
And usually these kinds ofintimate conversations by
intimate I don't mean I love you, I love you, I mean like honest
right and and sometimes withconflict in them that usually
both people come up away from itstronger right.
You know, with the personyesterday I think we were both
(26:20):
genuinely better for having hadthat conversation and so you can
sort out humility.
Yes, that's exactly right,exactly Like I'm willing to
sacrifice my ego for what is infact true.
That's that's spiritual, that'sfaith.
That's what faith is Like.
My self protection, my ego, mydesire for control is not as
important than what is true andfair, what is loving and meet.
(26:43):
You know, and therefore I'mgoing to trust that enough to
tolerate whatever puncture mighthappen in an honest
conversation, that somethingstronger is going to replace it.
Something better will replaceit.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, I feel like I spend a lot of time working with
individuals in the couple, so Iwork with them as couples but
individually I'm working withthem on put on boundaries like
really good, healthy boundariesto be, able to understand each
other's experience withouttaking it personally, without
going one down.
You know, being able to explainyour experience without going
(27:18):
one up, like all of those thingslike how important it is and I
explain it like my chair seeright here.
So like when I have walled offindividuals like they're're,
what they want to do is slam theglass door and so then they're
protected but not connectedright.
Or just open up wide and thenthey're super connected but not
protected, and I'm like what youneed is the screen door, just
like this.
(27:38):
You've got to be able to beable to filter the truth without
going up, one up or one down,right, exactly, and, and that's
hard, you know, because the egowants the control of up or down,
but yes, it's.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
That is what our soul development is is we get more
and more able to hold our owndignity while knowing another
person, while letting them knowus.
That's my stage three, right,so that we're developing a
deeper internal reference, adeeper internal compass.
And, paradoxically, that's notlike I've got it all worked out.
I'm not going to listen to you.
(28:11):
It's like the more I can trustmyself, the more I can actually
be open to you, because I wantto know what your experience is,
so that I can reference my ownintegrity, my own conscience,
not because I have to prove toyou I'm good, but I have to
prove to myself that I'm beinggood.
And if I'm not, then I'm goingto self-correct, not because you
won, or like you won this fight.
(28:32):
It's not that it's like, no, Iam getting in deeper alignment
with my conscience through whatyou're telling me about who I am
and or about your experience ofme, and that helps us even
trust ourselves more, getstronger within ourselves.
So we are both solid.
We're not just like, oh, justlove me, I'm here, you know,
you're not, it's not needy, butI'm open to being knowable to
(28:54):
you, to revealing who I am toyou, flaws and all, and I'm
willing to know you because Itrust that I can hold on to the
core of who I am in that process.
So I'm not going to loseanything.
So I don't have to hyperprotect, nor do I have to just
give everything away or, youknow, ask you to be everything
for me, because I have areference point within me that I
(29:20):
don't need you to prop me up.
So it's our ability to haveboundaries are a natural outcome
of developing deeper integritywithin ourselves of developing
deeper integrity withinourselves.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, that's so beautifully said, and what it
looks like in very, very plainterms is I can accept that
you're right about me in thisthing and also still love myself
enough to change or adjustwhatever needs to happen.
Exactly, exactly, yep, so good.
I get goosebumps.
So for someone who's who'slistening and they realize I do
deflect and justify, instead oflistening to my spouse or seeing
(29:52):
the ways they could be rightabout me, what's the first step
they could take to move towardsa more honest connection?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
So you know, I teach the strengthening your
relationship course and I give aconversation paradigm to help
people to get better atlistening.
But one of the things maybe asort of shorthand way of talking
about it is that my job as alistener and I think it helps to
put some boundaries on it, likeI'm going to listen for five
(30:19):
minutes and then I'm going tospeak for five minutes and
you're going to listen, you know, because we were like I can
control myself for five minutesBecause it's very hard to listen
to somebody going on about youor some negative and you're like
yeah, but yeah, but yeah.
But you know, like that's everylike that's usually the ego
trying to get in there anddestroy the messenger and
(30:40):
destroy the message before youhave any space to actually
understand it.
And so the goal is can I justlisten, which is not just being
quiet, it's actually calmingdown enough to thoroughly
understand the perspective ofthe speaker.
That's my job is to understandit, even if I think it's crazy
and dumb.
I need to at least understandwhy they think what they think
(31:04):
and how that intersects withtheir experience of me and how
they came to their point of view, and not with the aim of
destroying it, the aim ofunderstanding it, and so what
you're simply doing is justseeking to understand, then be
understood.
Okay, that's fine, you can beunderstood later, but first
increase your intelligence, yourintelligence about what's going
(31:25):
on.
Because, again, our storiesalways make sense to ourselves
and what we want to do is rushin with our version of reality
and hope that it will prevailand win the day.
But it never will, because ifyour spouse or your child or
friend, or whoever it is,doesn't feel like you actually
understand them, they're notgoing to listen to you.
They're going to be like yeah,but, yeah, but.
But what I'm trying to say isand they're going to be
constantly trying to get theirstory to prevail, and so you
(31:49):
have two speakers and nolisteners, to quote Terry Real,
and you don't get anywherebecause you haven't increased
the IQ of the relationship, andso you have to, like, just say
okay, my only goal and this isthe hardest thing, it's way
harder than talking is I'm justgoing to seek to understand, I'm
going to calm myself down, andmy only goal is to understand it
(32:09):
.
Then I can take it up with myconscience.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Okay, I can think about if I think there's on my
own.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I don't have to say yes to anything, I don't have to
disagree, I don't have to doanything.
I'm just going to understand itand then I can think within
myself what does my consciencethink about this information?
It's not about proving anythingto them.
This is about getting morealigned within ourselves.
So that's one thing.
The second thing and it's veryrelated, if you want, if you
understand your defensive isstart with any conversation.
(32:37):
You know, usually when we're,when we're driven by validation
this is another thing whenyou're saying what is it that
often couples do?
They have the same fight overand over and over again.
Now, there's some amount ofthat, because you're always
going to have the samedifferences, right.
And so, you know, my husbandand I have our regular points of
conflict and and we know howthese conversations tend to go
(32:59):
because we just we always runinto the same difference, you
know.
But when a couple is gettingbetter, they well.
So what I would say is that oneidea is that you want to like
lead with where your spouse isright.
So, one thing Gottman says isthat couples have the same fight
.
But when a couple is developing, they have more humor in it,
they're more able, there's moreacceptance of each other in it.
(33:20):
It's not that they ever likethat difference per se.
It always might be kind of anannoyance, but there's more
goodwill in it, like I know whoyou are, you know who I am and
we love each other.
And part of that tension iswhat drives the passion in the
marriage and drives the energyin the couple, right.
So we need to embrace ourdifferences a little more, to
(33:42):
understand the good that's inthem actually.
But that aside, if you'rehaving the fight at the same
level, you're not bringing moregoodwill.
There's not more that you needto really be like okay, I need
to start with where my spouse isright.
No more about what they'regetting wrong.
Tell them where they'reabsolutely right about you, okay
.
And when they are like sodumbfounded they're not sure
(34:02):
what to say next yeah, look,you're absolutely right.
I am selfish.
In this way You've absolutelynailed it.
I mean, what tends to happen isthat the spouse tends to be more
willing to acknowledge whereyou're right, like, that is to
say, it's usually like it's lessthreatening here to start
talking about what's real ratherthan being in our respective
(34:23):
trenches and trying to fighteach other on this.
And so it takes some courage.
But that's again a test of ourfaith, like how much faith do I
have in the truth, how muchfaith do I have in love and
doing what is actually fair orright?
What would I want for them todo?
I'd want them to acknowledgewhere they're wrong.
So then I need to be able to dowhat I hope for in the marriage
(34:46):
.
You know, it's very easy to beupset about all the limitations
in your spouse while excusingyour own.
So how do I come in here withmore truth, more strength, more
courage?
It invites the same.
It's not a guarantee, but it isthe way a couple grows and
there's no other way.
It is the way that a couplegrows.
Is they integrate more truth?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, and I think one thing that we always want, no
matter what the conflict is, isto just be heard, is to just
feel like we have been heard.
Yeah, and I just came up withthis when I was talking to my
client today.
But it was like when I waslistening to her talk, I was
like it's not like she wastalking about how she and her
husband they're just they end upjust slinging arrows at each
(35:26):
other.
Yeah, and it's not about thecontent anymore, it's about this
dynamic that they fall into.
And I'm like what would happenif you just stopped and you just
wanted to know about hisexperience, about it?
You don't take it personally.
Like he can say this is allyour fault and you're such an
idiot and you're making memiserable.
Even if he says all of that, youwant to know more about what
(35:47):
that experience.
What is that experience likefor you to think I'm an idiot?
Like?
What does it even feel like foryou to feel that way?
And so, like, what came to myhead which is so funny, is, or
just interesting is that I waslike I will never, ever skydive,
like I'm never, ever going tojump out of a plane.
But if you jump out of a plane.
I want to know everything aboutthat experience.
(36:09):
I want to know what the windfelt like.
I want to.
I want to know what it feltlike to fall.
Can you get yourself into aplace where, if you you're never
going to understand your,you're never going to feel the
feelings that your spouse isfeeling?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right.
What if you could understandeverything about?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
it.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
What if you could just put yourself in that space
with them and be so curiousabout the experience that you
just feel like.
Now you've done that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah Well, and it builds so much more instinctive
compassion.
You know, my husband was like amiddle child.
He was quieter, he had an olderbrother that was much more
dominant and louder, and so it'slike better understanding what
it feels like for him if hedoesn't feel that he's listened
to or understood because thatwas too much of his experience.
(36:54):
And then when you likeunderstand that, you're like,
okay, I will never do that toyou.
Like I mean, I don't mean tosay that I'm perfect in doing
that or anything, but like, onceyou get it, you're like oh, I
don't want to be that in yourlife, because that I can
understand.
If I were in your experience, Iwould feel exactly the same way
.
And so it makes it much easierwhen we really understand why
someone thinks as they think howthey came to that conclusion.
(37:17):
Usually there's a real deepsense in it, and then you can be
like I don't want to be a partof the problem, I can see my
role or I can see what is minein that, and it just makes it
easier to give and come towardsthem rather than spending all
our energy trying to get them tobe like us, which is a fool's
errand.
It will never happen.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yes, yes, the other thing I think that's really
practical in this is just beingaware of what your losing
strategy is Like.
What do I tend towards?
My losing strategy is controlor retaliation or whatever.
Like being able to name it andbeing like okay, I know, this is
my losing strategy, let me trysomething different here.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yes, exactly Exactly.
And you know, I think that's areally important point, because
sometimes people hear advicethat I or others give and it's
actually not the right advicefor them because it's already.
That is to say, like, let's saythey hear you should always get
the beam out of your eye first,but they actually tend to do
that too much that they get soself-focused on their
(38:18):
limitations that they don'tspeak something important.
Or somebody who tends to go oneup hears you know you should
speak your truth, and they'relike, yeah, I'm here to speak it
, you know.
And so the self-awareness thatsometimes can be the most
helpful is to understand where'smy actual vulnerability in my
relationships.
What's the thing I tend to dounder pressure that actually
(38:38):
works against the marriage, therelationship, my well being?
Because I need to know what itis and get really clear about
not doing it under pressure,because that's what our ego
wants us to do.
Is our losing strategy underpressure control.
That's what we want, yeah sogood.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So just this like final deep question you connect
marital intimacy with spiritualgrowth in this chapter so much.
How do you see the courage toface uncomfortable truths in
marriage as part of spiritualdevelopment?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah Well, so first of all, something I do take up
in the marriage is to thinkabout what is spirituality,
because a lot of us have theidea well, it's checking all the
boxes, it's obeying all thecommandments, it's compliance,
it's not making any mistakes,and you know I take up where
that makes sense in ourdevelopment, why there's some
truth in that.
But that as we grow and growmore into the Christian message
(39:35):
of learning to love one anotherright to love God, love our
neighbor and love ourselves isthe core of spirituality.
Christianity is a relationaltheology.
It's, at its foundation, aboutrelationship.
It's about knowing and beingknown.
It's about loving and beingloved, and this is what the soul
longs for.
(39:55):
We love control.
The ego loves control.
The soul wants to belong.
The soul wants to know we arenot alone and that we have each
other, and that's what's goingto make everything okay, right.
In a world, a fallen world, aworld with suffering in it and
loss, to love one another is thegreatest balm that we have, and
so we all long for that kind ofcommunion with each other, that
(40:17):
sense of belonging.
And yet it requires our abilityto know each other, to accept
each other, to know ourselves,to accept ourselves.
And yet it requires our abilityto know each other, to accept
each other, to know ourselves,to accept ourselves.
And so it's this ability to bein deeper, more honest
relationship that is at thefoundation of our spiritual
expansion.
It's where we find real peace.
And so you know.
(40:38):
That's why Christ was sayingjudge, not like, not, because
I'm going to get you on the samegrounds that you get someone
else, not in that kind of meanway, but know one another, don't
judge easily.
We're all sinners.
Right, it's in knowing anothersoul that our souls expand.
It's in listening to anotherperson that our understanding of
the world gets wiser and truer.
(40:58):
It's what allows us to makebetter choices.
It's what increases our agency.
It's what allows us to makebetter choices.
It's what increases our agency.
It's what allows us to letourselves really have meaningful
contact with others.
That's what the balm is that weneed.
That's when we stop feeling solonely.
And so it's unintuitivesometimes because we want
control in a fallen world.
But love is what we need, andlearning to love is what we need
(41:22):
, and that is how I think ofspiritual development.
So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Okay, tell the listeners where they can get a
copy of your book and how theycan best support you.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Well, if you go to my website, finlayson-feifcom,
you'll see a big link there preorder here or, depending on when
this is released, order.
So it'll be released on AmazonSeptember 30th, but the
pre-order link is available.
And on my website are all kindsof other resources retreats I'm
doing online courses that areall interrelated in terms of
(41:53):
helping individuals learn how tobe at deeper peace with
themselves and deeper capacityfor intimate connection.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So, yeah, I love it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time today.
I'm so excited for intimateconnection.
So, yeah, I love it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time today.
I'm so excited for your book.
I can't get wait to get a copyof my hand so I can highlight
and digest it all, and I'm justso grateful for you and your
work.
You are absolutely aninspiration to me and all that I
do, so thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Thank you, monica, thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and I am super, super, super
giddy about our guest today.
I'm thrilled to be joined by DrJennifer Finlayson-Fyfe, a
therapist, coach and author ofthe new book that we Might have
Joy Sexuality as a Path toSpirituality for Latter-day
Saints.
She's helped thousands ofindividuals and couples create
(00:22):
deeper, more meaningfulmarriages.
Today we're going to discussone of the most
thought-provoking chapters,chapter five, which is called
Intimacy Beyond Validation.
So I'm sure you don't have afavorite, but if you did have to
name a favorite, what do youthink would be your favorite
chapter?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh gosh, my favorite chapter is probably chapter nine
, which is toward an embodiedsensual faith.
So it's a little provocativethat title, but that's probably
my favorite.
But chapter five is a reallygood one.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I think it's a good one because I think it applies
to literally everyone.
Yeah it does it's hard to not.
I think it's hard to skip thisstep.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it is really.
I mean, I lay out in the firsthalf of the book a lot of the
inherited messages that haveinterfered with our capacity to
be at peace with our sexuality,our capacity for intimacy in a
marriage, even just peace withourselves as embodied beings.
So I kind of lay out what someof these false traditions are,
how they've hindered us, how weget stuck in our desire for
(01:23):
approval.
And then chapter five is kindof when it shifts to how do we
actually develop our ability tolove another person, to know
another person, and it'sinvolves a lot of invalidation.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think everyone's gonna love
this conversation because itspeaks to one of the deepest
desires that we all have ashumans, which is to feel known
and deeply connected.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, we're just born with thatdesire right Belonging to be in
connection with each other.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And I think it's.
It's very telling too, becausewe want to feel connected to
ourselves and we want to feelindividual, but we also want our
spouse to be connected to us,and we want to feel individual,
but we also want our spouse tobe connected to us and accept us
as an individual, and so it'slike that tug and pull that we
all that's always going to bethere.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That's right.
It's a fundamental tension torelationships and especially
fundamental to marriage, becausehow your spouse feels about you
deeply matters, but also tofeel free while being married
also deeply matters to ourhappiness, and so the challenge
of how do I be true to you andtrue to myself is fundamental.
(02:37):
It's a fundamental question ofmarriage, and the happiest
people, the people that are mosthappily married, grapple with
that question in a way wherethey make room for each other to
be individuals but also staytrue to the relationship.
And that's a creative,courageous process, but one
that's easy to just resent,because it involves a lot of
(02:58):
invalidation.
That is, I'm not just going toget you to reinforce me at every
step.
You're not going to just agreewith everything I want, and so
the challenge of that can beeasy to just be upset about.
I married the wrong person.
If I married the right one,they would want the right things
, but if we can understand it asfundamental to the project of
marriage and intimaterelationships, then we can
(03:20):
utilize it more to growspiritually, to grow in our
capacity to be at peace withinour own skin and with another
person.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, and that's so what this chapter is about.
You talk about intimacy beyondvalidation, so can you explain
what that means and why?
Validation, which is somethingthat we all want, like we all
want acceptance and love, andsomebody who just love us for
who we are, right, can actuallyget in the way of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah.
So one thing I would start withis that in our culture we often
confuse intimacy withvalidation.
That is, if a relationship'sintimate, then it's like I
accept everything that you thinkand feel and I'm here to
reinforce you and validate whythat is a perspective that makes
sense, and then you'll do thesame for me and that's an
(04:09):
indicator that we are a goodcouple or that we have an
intimate relationship.
And, of course, there isnothing wrong with validation.
It feels amazing, it's great toget it when it's honest.
But when we make intimacy I'msorry, when we make validation
the measure of the relationshipor what it is we're trying to
extract from our partner, itforces the marriage to either be
(04:31):
dishonest or it drivesresentment into it, because
nobody walks around justvalidating their spouse 24-7.
Nobody feels good abouteverything their spouse wants.
Because we are drawn todifference and we go and, you
know, marry someone.
In fact, the reason we findthem compelling is because they
(04:52):
represent mystery and difference.
And so when we marry into that,well then it's like wait, why
aren't you going to bed at theright time?
Why aren't you, you know,cleaning the house in the right
way?
Those differences start toemerge and they're difficult and
so when we are children, whenwe are toddlers, if we are loved
, well, we're just accepted forour existence.
(05:13):
Like you're precious becauseyou exist.
You're precious because you'rea divine being on this planet
and you can throw food and yourparents swoon.
Okay, like, everything you areis amazing and it's very
important stage because you aregiven, you're reflected back,
your divine worth.
Right that you're just preciousbecause you exist.
But of course, as we mature,then people start to expect more
(05:35):
and you have to keep yourclothes on and you can't put
your hands down your pants andthere's just more and more
expectation.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
There's more expected for you to be cute.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So absolutely, you have to do a lot more to be cute
.
And then we hit puberty and ourbodies are changing and we feel
awkward and self conscious andwe long for this feeling of just
pure acceptance.
And so when we fall in love, weget it again.
It's like you walk into theroom and the one that you are in
love, with lights up.
(06:05):
They're so happy you're thereand they and you know you
reinforce in each other the most, the deepest sense of
acceptance and valuing of theother person, and it feels
amazing because it's like I getto belong to myself and you find
it delightful, and I get to bewith you and it's a wonderful
part of a relationship.
It's the inspiration of amarriage.
It gives you the picture ofwhat the marriage can be.
(06:31):
But then, of course, as youmove in together and start
creating a life together andthat proverbial honeymoon ends,
you're up against those annoyingdifferences, Like wait a minute
, like why aren't you justreinforcing me?
And that's when the marriage is.
You've gone from theinspiration into the
disillusionment, and that's whenthe marriage is.
You've gone from theinspiration into the
disillusionment, and it's avaluable disillusionment.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
We talk a lot about Terry Reel's stages on this.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes, exactly.
So you go from the love withoutknowledge phase to the
knowledge without love phase,and it hurts.
And so how we handle thatinvalidation has everything to
do with whether or not we growinto the love with knowledge
stage, whether or not we growinto the capacity for intimacy
and validation.
(07:13):
Okay now, I don't mean to sayyou get validated all the time,
but that I can know who you are,I can know how you're different
than me, I can know that youwant things that don't
immediately validate me, butlove you anyway.
And in order to get into thatkind of an intimate marriage
where I really can know youdifferences and all, we have to
(07:34):
grow out of our need and desirefor validation to grow into the
ability to love and be loved, toknow and be known, and these
are capacities we developthrough the revelation of what
is true in the marriage, likethat okay, how am I going to
deal with the fact that youbelieve something in a different
way than I do and in a way thatstresses me out?
(07:55):
Or how am I going to deal withthe fact that you approach
sexual intimacy in a differentway than I do and it's not what
I want?
And so how do we build anhonest bridge across these
differences?
And that requires, in a sense,holding your own while still
being flexible.
So that is, I'm not going tobetray myself, because when we
need validation too much, we'lldo one of three things.
(08:17):
We either pressure our partnerto do what we want If you love
me, you wouldn't make a big dealabout this.
You do what I want.
Or we yield Okay, I'm just notgoing to.
I'm just going to do what wewant.
If you love me, you wouldn'tmake a big deal about this.
You do what I want.
Or we yield Okay, I'm justgoing to do whatever they want.
I just don't want them to bemad at me, I'll just do it, even
though I resent, okay.
Or we just live parallel lives,we don't push ourselves into
real contact with one another,and all three of those are very
(08:40):
human, very understandableresponses, but we don't have
enough friction to then forge anhonest relationship, an
intimate marriage, and so thatfriction is valuable because it
allows you to refine who you are.
I mean, it really is like manyof the places where my husband
has not validated.
I don't mean that he's beingmean, he's just saying no,
(09:02):
that's not fair, or I don'tagree with that, or this really
matters to me and I never likedthose moments.
It's just saying, no, that'snot fair, or I don't agree with
that, or this really matters tome, and you know I never liked
those moments.
It's not like oh.
Thank you for your honesty.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Thanks for telling me how I'm ruining your life.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
I mean, my usual instinct isthe first round to kind of try
to convince him why he's wrong.
But you know, but when amarriage stays honest, well then
you have to grapple with.
Okay, I don't think I'm beingfair here.
I think that he has a pointright, or sometimes it may mean
like no, I think that I'myielding too much on this and I
(09:35):
really need to speak to thispiece.
Right, but that's all a part ofcreating a solid, reliable,
trustworthy relationship,because it's based in honesty,
it's based in truth.
It's an uncomfortable process,but it's essential to developing
real, open-heartedrelationships and peace with
(09:55):
ourselves and a spouse, which isthe greatest thing we can forge
in our lives, because it's tohave a home and in sex, it's to
have a home, in sex too, that Ican be myself here and I can
find acceptance not in thetwo-year-old way, although it's
reminiscent of it, because therereally is acceptance in a good
marriage, but it's based inwisdom, it's based in true love,
(10:17):
not in just a reflexive need toget approval whether or not
it's real.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, it's so much I feel like in this chapter hinges
around the ability to share orhave a voice in the marriage.
Yeah, it's the three thingsthat you talked about, like the
three, the, either the controlor the not having a voice.
Yes, it's all about, like, howdo I make my voice heard but
(10:43):
also make room for your voice?
That's right.
That's right that you're bothhave a voice.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, you're increasing the intelligence of
the marriage by bringing in atrue perspective.
And it doesn't mean like, oh, Iknow I got it all right.
Like I just had a conversationwith someone that I really care
about yesterday who was having anegative response to me and she
was like I may be wrong, so Ijust I just need to tell you how
I'm feeling.
And she felt apologetic forsaying it, but I was like I am
(11:11):
so glad that you said thatbecause you're right, like I was
missing that.
I feel genuinely bad aboutmissing that.
And she was like I still feelkind of bad that I brought it up
and I'm like I am so gratefulyou brought it up.
Like I want to see myself, Iwant to see my impact, I want to
be fair, and that's made usboth better by having that real
(11:32):
information between us, where,if you were just trying to
manage it like that would be badfor you but also bad for me,
because I'm not then privy to myimpact, and so that's how you
create.
It's never comfortable.
You know, gosh, like I neverlike saying things.
I know somebody doesn't want tohear, even if I think they need
to be said, and I never likehearing them either.
I mean, there's nothingcomfortable about it, but it's
(11:55):
valuable, and if you canunderstand how powerful it is in
forging real peace, well, wecan lean into it more.
We can understand it.
It's the tension we need tostep towards to actually get
stronger.
And if you think about allthings, we get stronger.
Intention, we get stronger Likeyou go to the gym and you do
exactly the thing where you'reweak.
(12:16):
That's how you build capacityIn our relationships.
It's like seeing things that wehaven't yet seen, understanding
our blind spots speaking upwhen we'd rather just shove
something down, but whatactually happens is real
strength grows in its place, andso that is the process of
spiritual development.
In my opinion.
It's the process of relationaldevelopment, and it's what makes
(12:38):
us have more capacity forintimacy in our lives, not just
in a marriage, but with ourchildren, like to know them, to
understand their experience, tohave more open hearted
relationships with friends, withfamily, and so you know it's
uncomfortable but highlyvaluable.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, so you're right that our spouses often see our
blind spots more clearly than wedo, so why do you think it's so
hard for us to receive thatfeedback without getting
defensive, taking it personallyfalling apart, I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
first of all, let's just start.
It's hard Invalidatingconversations.
They're hard.
Our ego does not like them.
I mean because change is hardand self-awareness is
disorienting and none of uslikes to feel like, oh, I made a
big mistake.
I mean, nobody likes thatfeeling.
And because we connect our valuesometimes so much with not
(13:31):
getting things wrong, and so forall those reasons, the ego's
there to kind of fend off themessage or just crumple into a
ball of shame and just shrinkfrom it, and so, even if that
message is given in the bestpossible way, it's just
uncomfortable.
We don't like it.
So there's that.
But then often our spouse isfocused on something that is in
(13:52):
fact true, but they're using itto hide from a part of
themselves, right, so we focuson what they're getting wrong
about us to not deal with whatthey're getting right about us
right, and so they're oftenfiltering it through their own
lens, through their ownself-justification, and so it
becomes really really easy tothen be like oh yeah, but you
think that because blah, blah,blah, blah, blah and you might
(14:14):
be dead on, okay, but you'realso using that to not get at
what is actually true in whatthey're saying, the fact that
it's not perfectly true or thatit's filtered through an
indulgence in them, makes itvery easy to just reject it, not
deal with it.
And so for all those reasons,and then I think you know, the
ego loves control and we seekcontrol by yielding, by
(14:36):
pressuring, by distancing.
Those are all attempts at akind of control, and so when
we're invited into deeper truth,we're letting go of a certain
kind of control and we justdon't like that.
We're like afraid if I admitthis, will they say that I'm
unworthy, they don't love meanymore.
Does it prove I'm a loser?
Am I letting go of some view ofmyself or that they might have
(14:58):
of me?
If I acknowledge this, we'retrying to control something and
thinking it's going to keep usin a better place, but by
clinging to it we actually arelimiting our strength, we're
actually limiting the freedomthat we would have in our lives,
but it still is very, verytempting, that's for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
So I work with a lot of engaged and newlywed couples
in my practice and like to helpthem prepare for marriage right.
So do you have anyrecommendations for how to help
them avoid getting into thisvalidation seeking dynamic just
right from the start?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, well, I think first of all it's just valuable
to understand it as reallynormal.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So Almost necessary.
I feel like it's almostdevelopmental.
It is.
That's like the courting stageis validation.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's right so chapter six is all about our
emotional development and how wemove through different stages
of what we're seeking.
And stage two, in the way Iwrite about in the book, is what
I call the social stage, andit's where we are highly
validation dependent and seekinga validation.
And that's a necessary stage ofour development, but it's very
(16:05):
much limits our capacity forintimacy, as in knowing and
being known, because our senseof self is kind of walking
around on everybody else.
And this is especially true inromance, like, first of all,
falling in love is kind of avalidation based activity.
And then we're sharing oursexuality and all we want is for
our spouse to say everythingyou are is absolute perfection
(16:27):
and I 100% adore you, and sowe're very, very.
It's very painful to face anyrejection there because it's so
core, we're sharing so much ofourselves, and so this yearning
for validation is 100% normaland any good marriage has a lot
of honest validation in it.
So again, I'm not saying thatvalidation is a bad thing by any
(16:50):
stretch.
But the problem is, if weprioritize getting validation
over moving towards what is true, moving towards what is fair
with one another, creatingsomething honest between us and
our spouse, then we will getless and less and less
validation as time goes on andwe will feel more and more
lonely.
So I think with newlyweds it'simportant to understand like,
(17:12):
first of all, the validation isa great thing, it's legitimate
to want that validation, butthat invalidation is going to
come pretty quickly If themarriage is honest and I don't
mean to say it's going to be allinvalidation, that's for sure.
But if the marriage is honest,you're going to be coming up
against differences, and how youhandle those differences is
(17:34):
really what matters.
It's not the fact of them,because very likely you married
someone who's quite differentthan you in a lot of ways, and
so if you're creating a spacethat you can both be at peace in
, it's going to mean dealingwith the ways that you feel
limited or frustrated or thatyou wish things were different,
and it doesn't mean that you areright and they are wrong, but
(17:56):
that coming into thesecollaborative conversations is
important.
So it's like valuing conflictNow, not contempt, not cruelty,
but conflict is aboutdifferences, bumping up against
each other, and that is arefining process and one to
value.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I love that because one of the chapters in my book
is that if we're fighting,there's something wrong, right
or like conflict is bad right,and so it's like so important to
realize that conflict is sonecessary in order to get where
you want to go, to get theintimacy part.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yes, exactly, exactly yeah.
And we're designed to bedifferent.
We're designed to bringparticular gifts and with those
gifts come liabilities also.
So in a marriage, you oftenwere drawn to them for their
gifts, not their liabilities,but their liabilities will come
with those gifts, just as yoursdo.
(18:51):
And so it's like, okay, how do Ilove a whole person?
Like it's not really fair tosay I only love you for the good
parts, okay, and I'm going toresent you for the lesser parts.
Well, what about in me?
It's the same is true here.
And so how do I love a wholeperson?
And in learning to do that,there's also a self-acceptance
that comes that I also am not.
You know, like learning to lovean imperfect other can bring
(19:14):
with it the gift of learning tolove your imperfect self.
And that's not to indulge it orto say that you know that
there's nothing to grow there,but that we're in this important
project of learning how to lovein the face of limitation,
humanity, differences, and thatmarriage is one of the most
powerful ways to be in the thickof those lessons.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, they say it's a people growing machine, right?
Yes exactly so.
For those of us who are alreadymarried, what are some of the
signs that a couple is stuck invalidation, seeking rather than
pursuing genuine intimacy?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Resentment, loneliness, these are all have a
lot I could say about all ofthem.
Yeah, that one person is reallyunhappy and the other is happy
these are all ways in which itgets expressed.
Like one is giving too much,they feel that they're
disappearing in the marriage.
The other person is like youknow, I had a couple that came
(20:10):
in once and he was like we'revery, very happy, you know, the
only problem is she's miserableMeaning he was saying we're very
happily married but she'sdepressed and unhappy and of
course that's a big problem.
Happily married, but she'sdepressed and unhappy, and of
course that's a big problem.
What I think he wasn't keepingtrack of was how much he was
taking in the marriage.
That wasn't all his fault,because she was so much of a
(20:30):
yielder and took some safety inyielding and kind of preferred
to just march to someone else'sdrumbeat right, because there's
a certain amount of I don't haveto self define if I'm just the
one that's helping but I thinkthat she felt like she was
disappearing in her own life,disappearing in her own marriage
and therefore depressed and nothappy and feeling like she was
being taken for granted.
(20:51):
So I think that you know forhim, this couple.
It was him waking up to thefact that they were in an
imbalanced system and he wasreally taking more than his
share and that it was a falsehappiness in a way, because he
hadn't really learned to loveand make room for another, just
as she hadn't learned to makeroom for herself.
And so that can be one of them.
(21:13):
Resentment is an easy one.
A lot of times we'll like givethings, but then we actually
hope that we'll be acknowledgedor validated, and then we resent
when we're not or we're tooafraid to stand up for something
.
So we just resent instead.
Sometimes we're too entitledand then we resent.
We expect too much yielding,too much giving, and when our
spouse holds their own, weresent.
And then I think you knowsometimes just the parallel
(21:35):
lives, like we're not actuallypushing ourselves into contact
enough to forge a marriage.
And so we may be, enact amarriage, but we don't really
know each other.
We don't really feel that we canbe ourselves Like.
This is something I'm kind ofshocked me when I first started
doing the work I was doing.
Is that how much people weren'tactually sharing their honest
(21:56):
selves, how much they would hidefrom their partner realities
about themselves.
You know how much they werekind of lying going to bed at
night next to not a friend butsomebody that they felt they
really that really didn't knowthem and they didn't really know
.
Because it was easier to kindof enact a role than to bring an
honest, full self and it's hardto tolerate the conflict.
(22:19):
But I think it's even harder toshare a bed with someone that
you don't feel is your friend,that really knows you, and share
a life with someone that youdon't feel is your friend and
knows you, and by friendship Idon't mean we're all the same,
but that we have a basic honestconnection, even in the face of
how we do life differently evenin the face of how we do life
(22:42):
differently.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, that's really interesting because I think you
get that dynamic when you havetwo conflict avoidant or two
kind of walled off people.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yes, that's right and so yes, you know it's like.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
It's like you want to be lying next to a friend, but
you're also not giving enough ofyourself for that friendship to
, to blossom.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
That's right.
I brought up a couple like that, right in the beginning of the
of the book, where they lookedin some ways like the pillars of
the community because they were, you know, dutiful and didn't
ever fight.
And yet the marriage wassterile, like it was deeply
lonely.
There was tremendous amounts ofresentment, but they were.
It was never articulated, itjust came out in kind of formal
(23:20):
distance and, yeah, they wereboth conflict avoidant and so
they preferred to just kind ofshove down their feelings than
to bring them to each other andit looks loving, but it had
tremendous costs to the marriageand to them individually.
There wasn't any real peace,even though they were trying to
enact peace by not bringing updifficult things.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I see that happen a lot, like a lot
of times, couples will come intomy office and they're like well
, we never fight.
And I'm like, well, why don'tyou fight?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I'm a little more worried about that statement
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah.
And oftentimes we people havelearned, like, I'm sure, as you
talk about in your book is that,oh, we are going to be the
right kind of couple by not everfighting.
And again, I don't mean dragout cruel, you know fighting but
honesty is going to inviteconflict, tension, and again,
truth and love always have to gotogether.
(24:16):
So I'm speaking the truth, notto get back at you, but like to
actually forge somethingsustainable with you.
That's a different meaning,Like I'm saying hard things not
because I want you to feel bad,but because I want us to do.
I's a different meaning, LikeI'm saying hard things not
because I want you to feel bad,but because I want us to do, I
want us to thrive, I want us tobe well.
And so it's hard for me to sayit, but I've got to talk about
it, even if I'm wrong.
(24:36):
There's times where I've notwanted to say things that make
me uncomfortable.
What I mean is I'm afraid maybethis will reveal a limited part
of me if I say that and ofcourse you need to think about,
you know, is there, is this afair position or not?
But even when I haven't beensure, I still have thought it's
better to talk about it in ahumble way.
(24:57):
I don't mean like accusing, butlike I'm struggling with this
thing because even if it's deadwrong in the saying of it, it
gets clarified.
Like I can like figure out ifI'm being unfair and
self-correct, but if it justfesters in my mind we always
make sense to ourselves, right,yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And so that's I think that's one of the greatest
gifts of marriage is because youcan put it.
If you trust your partner andyou trust in the friendship and
you trust in the honesty there,you can put it out there and be
like I don't know, you know, inmy head this makes perfect sense
.
But if I put it out here on thetable and we discuss it.
Then what is it?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, exactly, and I think it's just again.
It takes a lot of humility.
I talk about that quite a bitin chapter five Like humility is
not one down, but it's like I'mreceptive, I'm not going to
pride myself on the idea thatI've got it all worked out or
that I don't make mistakes, likeI'm genuinely trying to sort
out my own mind here and thatwe're bringing this into honest
(25:58):
contact with each other becausethat can help you work out
something.
That's better.
And usually these kinds ofintimate conversations by
intimate I don't mean I love you, I love you, I mean like honest
right and and sometimes withconflict in them that usually
both people come up away from itstronger right.
You know, with the personyesterday I think we were both
(26:20):
genuinely better for having hadthat conversation and so you can
sort out humility.
Yes, that's exactly right,exactly Like I'm willing to
sacrifice my ego for what is infact true.
That's that's spiritual, that'sfaith.
That's what faith is Like.
My self protection, my ego, mydesire for control is not as
important than what is true andfair, what is loving and meet.
(26:43):
You know, and therefore I'mgoing to trust that enough to
tolerate whatever puncture mighthappen in an honest
conversation, that somethingstronger is going to replace it.
Something better will replaceit.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, I feel like I spend a lot of time working with
individuals in the couple, so Iwork with them as couples but
individually I'm working withthem on put on boundaries like
really good, healthy boundariesto be, able to understand each
other's experience withouttaking it personally, without
going one down.
You know, being able to explainyour experience without going
(27:18):
one up, like all of those thingslike how important it is and I
explain it like my chair seeright here.
So like when I have walled offindividuals like they're're,
what they want to do is slam theglass door and so then they're
protected but not connectedright.
Or just open up wide and thenthey're super connected but not
protected, and I'm like what youneed is the screen door, just
like this.
(27:38):
You've got to be able to beable to filter the truth without
going up, one up or one down,right, exactly, and, and that's
hard, you know, because the egowants the control of up or down,
but yes, it's.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
That is what our soul development is is we get more
and more able to hold our owndignity while knowing another
person, while letting them knowus.
That's my stage three, right,so that we're developing a
deeper internal reference, adeeper internal compass.
And, paradoxically, that's notlike I've got it all worked out.
I'm not going to listen to you.
(28:11):
It's like the more I can trustmyself, the more I can actually
be open to you, because I wantto know what your experience is,
so that I can reference my ownintegrity, my own conscience,
not because I have to prove toyou I'm good, but I have to
prove to myself that I'm beinggood.
And if I'm not, then I'm goingto self-correct, not because you
won, or like you won this fight.
(28:32):
It's not that it's like, no, Iam getting in deeper alignment
with my conscience through whatyou're telling me about who I am
and or about your experience ofme, and that helps us even
trust ourselves more, getstronger within ourselves.
So we are both solid.
We're not just like, oh, justlove me, I'm here, you know,
you're not, it's not needy, butI'm open to being knowable to
(28:54):
you, to revealing who I am toyou, flaws and all, and I'm
willing to know you because Itrust that I can hold on to the
core of who I am in that process.
So I'm not going to loseanything.
So I don't have to hyperprotect, nor do I have to just
give everything away or, youknow, ask you to be everything
for me, because I have areference point within me that I
(29:20):
don't need you to prop me up.
So it's our ability to haveboundaries are a natural outcome
of developing deeper integritywithin ourselves of developing
deeper integrity withinourselves.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, that's so beautifully said, and what it
looks like in very, very plainterms is I can accept that
you're right about me in thisthing and also still love myself
enough to change or adjustwhatever needs to happen.
Exactly, exactly, yep, so good.
I get goosebumps.
So for someone who's who'slistening and they realize I do
deflect and justify, instead oflistening to my spouse or seeing
(29:52):
the ways they could be rightabout me, what's the first step
they could take to move towardsa more honest connection?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
So you know, I teach the strengthening your
relationship course and I give aconversation paradigm to help
people to get better atlistening.
But one of the things maybe asort of shorthand way of talking
about it is that my job as alistener and I think it helps to
put some boundaries on it, likeI'm going to listen for five
(30:19):
minutes and then I'm going tospeak for five minutes and
you're going to listen, you know, because we were like I can
control myself for five minutesBecause it's very hard to listen
to somebody going on about youor some negative and you're like
yeah, but yeah, but yeah.
But you know, like that's everylike that's usually the ego
trying to get in there anddestroy the messenger and
(30:40):
destroy the message before youhave any space to actually
understand it.
And so the goal is can I justlisten, which is not just being
quiet, it's actually calmingdown enough to thoroughly
understand the perspective ofthe speaker.
That's my job is to understandit, even if I think it's crazy
and dumb.
I need to at least understandwhy they think what they think
(31:04):
and how that intersects withtheir experience of me and how
they came to their point of view, and not with the aim of
destroying it, the aim ofunderstanding it, and so what
you're simply doing is justseeking to understand, then be
understood.
Okay, that's fine, you can beunderstood later, but first
increase your intelligence, yourintelligence about what's going
(31:25):
on.
Because, again, our storiesalways make sense to ourselves
and what we want to do is rushin with our version of reality
and hope that it will prevailand win the day.
But it never will, because ifyour spouse or your child or
friend, or whoever it is,doesn't feel like you actually
understand them, they're notgoing to listen to you.
They're going to be like yeah,but, yeah, but.
But what I'm trying to say isand they're going to be
constantly trying to get theirstory to prevail, and so you
(31:49):
have two speakers and nolisteners, to quote Terry Real,
and you don't get anywherebecause you haven't increased
the IQ of the relationship, andso you have to, like, just say
okay, my only goal and this isthe hardest thing, it's way
harder than talking is I'm justgoing to seek to understand, I'm
going to calm myself down, andmy only goal is to understand it
(32:09):
.
Then I can take it up with myconscience.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Okay, I can think about if I think there's on my
own.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I don't have to say yes to anything, I don't have to
disagree, I don't have to doanything.
I'm just going to understand itand then I can think within
myself what does my consciencethink about this information?
It's not about proving anythingto them.
This is about getting morealigned within ourselves.
So that's one thing.
The second thing and it's veryrelated, if you want, if you
understand your defensive isstart with any conversation.
(32:37):
You know, usually when we're,when we're driven by validation
this is another thing whenyou're saying what is it that
often couples do?
They have the same fight overand over and over again.
Now, there's some amount ofthat, because you're always
going to have the samedifferences, right.
And so, you know, my husbandand I have our regular points of
conflict and and we know howthese conversations tend to go
(32:59):
because we just we always runinto the same difference, you
know.
But when a couple is gettingbetter, they well.
So what I would say is that oneidea is that you want to like
lead with where your spouse isright.
So, one thing Gottman says isthat couples have the same fight
.
But when a couple is developing, they have more humor in it,
they're more able, there's moreacceptance of each other in it.
(33:20):
It's not that they ever likethat difference per se.
It always might be kind of anannoyance, but there's more
goodwill in it, like I know whoyou are, you know who I am and
we love each other.
And part of that tension iswhat drives the passion in the
marriage and drives the energyin the couple, right.
So we need to embrace ourdifferences a little more, to
(33:42):
understand the good that's inthem actually.
But that aside, if you'rehaving the fight at the same
level, you're not bringing moregoodwill.
There's not more that you needto really be like okay, I need
to start with where my spouse isright.
No more about what they'regetting wrong.
Tell them where they'reabsolutely right about you, okay
.
And when they are like sodumbfounded they're not sure
(34:02):
what to say next yeah, look,you're absolutely right.
I am selfish.
In this way You've absolutelynailed it.
I mean, what tends to happen isthat the spouse tends to be more
willing to acknowledge whereyou're right, like, that is to
say, it's usually like it's lessthreatening here to start
talking about what's real ratherthan being in our respective
(34:23):
trenches and trying to fighteach other on this.
And so it takes some courage.
But that's again a test of ourfaith, like how much faith do I
have in the truth, how muchfaith do I have in love and
doing what is actually fair orright?
What would I want for them todo?
I'd want them to acknowledgewhere they're wrong.
So then I need to be able to dowhat I hope for in the marriage
(34:46):
.
You know, it's very easy to beupset about all the limitations
in your spouse while excusingyour own.
So how do I come in here withmore truth, more strength, more
courage?
It invites the same.
It's not a guarantee, but it isthe way a couple grows and
there's no other way.
It is the way that a couplegrows.
Is they integrate more truth?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, and I think one thing that we always want, no
matter what the conflict is, isto just be heard, is to just
feel like we have been heard.
Yeah, and I just came up withthis when I was talking to my
client today.
But it was like when I waslistening to her talk, I was
like it's not like she wastalking about how she and her
husband they're just they end upjust slinging arrows at each
(35:26):
other.
Yeah, and it's not about thecontent anymore, it's about this
dynamic that they fall into.
And I'm like what would happenif you just stopped and you just
wanted to know about hisexperience, about it?
You don't take it personally.
Like he can say this is allyour fault and you're such an
idiot and you're making memiserable.
Even if he says all of that, youwant to know more about what
(35:47):
that experience.
What is that experience likefor you to think I'm an idiot?
Like?
What does it even feel like foryou to feel that way?
And so, like, what came to myhead which is so funny, is, or
just interesting is that I waslike I will never, ever skydive,
like I'm never, ever going tojump out of a plane.
But if you jump out of a plane.
I want to know everything aboutthat experience.
(36:09):
I want to know what the windfelt like.
I want to.
I want to know what it feltlike to fall.
Can you get yourself into aplace where, if you you're never
going to understand your,you're never going to feel the
feelings that your spouse isfeeling?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right.
What if you could understandeverything about?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
it.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
What if you could just put yourself in that space
with them and be so curiousabout the experience that you
just feel like.
Now you've done that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah Well, and it builds so much more instinctive
compassion.
You know, my husband was like amiddle child.
He was quieter, he had an olderbrother that was much more
dominant and louder, and so it'slike better understanding what
it feels like for him if hedoesn't feel that he's listened
to or understood because thatwas too much of his experience.
(36:54):
And then when you likeunderstand that, you're like,
okay, I will never do that toyou.
Like I mean, I don't mean tosay that I'm perfect in doing
that or anything, but like, onceyou get it, you're like oh, I
don't want to be that in yourlife, because that I can
understand.
If I were in your experience, Iwould feel exactly the same way
.
And so it makes it much easierwhen we really understand why
someone thinks as they think howthey came to that conclusion.
(37:17):
Usually there's a real deepsense in it, and then you can be
like I don't want to be a partof the problem, I can see my
role or I can see what is minein that, and it just makes it
easier to give and come towardsthem rather than spending all
our energy trying to get them tobe like us, which is a fool's
errand.
It will never happen.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yes, yes, the other thing I think that's really
practical in this is just beingaware of what your losing
strategy is Like.
What do I tend towards?
My losing strategy is controlor retaliation or whatever.
Like being able to name it andbeing like okay, I know, this is
my losing strategy, let me trysomething different here.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yes, exactly Exactly.
And you know, I think that's areally important point, because
sometimes people hear advicethat I or others give and it's
actually not the right advicefor them because it's already.
That is to say, like, let's saythey hear you should always get
the beam out of your eye first,but they actually tend to do
that too much that they get soself-focused on their
(38:18):
limitations that they don'tspeak something important.
Or somebody who tends to go oneup hears you know you should
speak your truth, and they'relike, yeah, I'm here to speak it
, you know.
And so the self-awareness thatsometimes can be the most
helpful is to understand where'smy actual vulnerability in my
relationships.
What's the thing I tend to dounder pressure that actually
(38:38):
works against the marriage, therelationship, my well being?
Because I need to know what itis and get really clear about
not doing it under pressure,because that's what our ego
wants us to do.
Is our losing strategy underpressure control.
That's what we want, yeah sogood.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So just this like final deep question you connect
marital intimacy with spiritualgrowth in this chapter so much.
How do you see the courage toface uncomfortable truths in
marriage as part of spiritualdevelopment?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah Well, so first of all, something I do take up
in the marriage is to thinkabout what is spirituality,
because a lot of us have theidea well, it's checking all the
boxes, it's obeying all thecommandments, it's compliance,
it's not making any mistakes,and you know I take up where
that makes sense in ourdevelopment, why there's some
truth in that.
But that as we grow and growmore into the Christian message
(39:35):
of learning to love one anotherright to love God, love our
neighbor and love ourselves isthe core of spirituality.
Christianity is a relationaltheology.
It's, at its foundation, aboutrelationship.
It's about knowing and beingknown.
It's about loving and beingloved, and this is what the soul
longs for.
(39:55):
We love control.
The ego loves control.
The soul wants to belong.
The soul wants to know we arenot alone and that we have each
other, and that's what's goingto make everything okay, right.
In a world, a fallen world, aworld with suffering in it and
loss, to love one another is thegreatest balm that we have, and
so we all long for that kind ofcommunion with each other, that
(40:17):
sense of belonging.
And yet it requires our abilityto know each other, to accept
each other, to know ourselves,to accept ourselves.
And yet it requires our abilityto know each other, to accept
each other, to know ourselves,to accept ourselves.
And so it's this ability to bein deeper, more honest
relationship that is at thefoundation of our spiritual
expansion.
It's where we find real peace.
And so you know.
(40:38):
That's why Christ was sayingjudge, not like, not, because
I'm going to get you on the samegrounds that you get someone
else, not in that kind of meanway, but know one another, don't
judge easily.
We're all sinners.
Right, it's in knowing anothersoul that our souls expand.
It's in listening to anotherperson that our understanding of
the world gets wiser and truer.
(40:58):
It's what allows us to makebetter choices.
It's what increases our agency.
It's what allows us to makebetter choices.
It's what increases our agency.
It's what allows us to letourselves really have meaningful
contact with others.
That's what the balm is that weneed.
That's when we stop feeling solonely.
And so it's unintuitivesometimes because we want
control in a fallen world.
But love is what we need, andlearning to love is what we need
(41:22):
, and that is how I think ofspiritual development.
So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Okay, tell the listeners where they can get a
copy of your book and how theycan best support you.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Well, if you go to my website, finlayson-feifcom,
you'll see a big link there preorder here or, depending on when
this is released, order.
So it'll be released on AmazonSeptember 30th, but the
pre-order link is available.
And on my website are all kindsof other resources retreats I'm
doing online courses that areall interrelated in terms of
(41:53):
helping individuals learn how tobe at deeper peace with
themselves and deeper capacityfor intimate connection.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So, yeah, I love it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time today.
I'm so excited for intimateconnection.
So, yeah, I love it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time today.
I'm so excited for your book.
I can't get wait to get a copyof my hand so I can highlight
and digest it all, and I'm justso grateful for you and your
work.
You are absolutely aninspiration to me and all that I
do, so thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Thank you, monica, thank you.
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