April 8, 2025 • 31 mins
Passionate relationships require more than love—they need the right psychological dynamics to keep desire alive. When couples come to me feeling more like roommates than lovers, they're often surprised to learn that their sexual disconnection has less to do with libido or attraction and more to do with unrecognized emotional patterns.
The truth about passionate marriages might surprise you. While emotional connection matters, your sexual relationship operates with separate dynamics that need specific attention. Differentiation—maintaining your sense of self while being emotionally connected—creates the foundation for desire. As relationship expert David Schnarch explains, people who struggle with differentiation often resort to control tactics or emotional distance rather than healthy interdependence.
Your sexual connection is also deeply influenced by context, as Emily Nagoski brilliantly explains. Desire isn't simply spontaneous—it's responsive to your environment and circumstances. This means transitioning from daily responsibilities to intimate connection requires intentional shifts in mindset, not just spontaneous attraction. Meanwhile, Esther Perel reminds us that "fire needs air"—eroticism thrives in the space between partners, requiring some degree of mystery and novelty to remain vibrant.
The good news? These dynamics can transform with intentional effort. Start by reconnecting with what makes you feel alive and embodied, practice differentiation by expressing needs without controlling your partner, and prioritize whatever helps you transition into a sensual mindset. Build erotic tension through flirtation and novel experiences, and commit to regular conversations about your sexual connection.
Sexual disconnection isn't a life sentence—it's an invitation to grow together. Remember that having differing levels of desire is normal in every aspect of marriage. With understanding and the right tools, you can rediscover the passion that may have temporarily dimmed and create a sexual relationship that's fulfilling for both partners.
Have questions about your own relationship dynamics? Reach out to me directly—I'm passionate about helping couples move beyond roommate syndrome to rediscover true intimacy and desire.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 0 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and today I wanted to talk about
something a little bit morespicy.
I feel like it's been a whilesince we've talked about sexual
intimacy and for some reason itis coming up so much with my
(00:20):
couples.
I ask them when we start,always to tell me about their
sex life, and I feel like rightnow especially, a lot of my
clients are wanting to focuspredominantly on that.
So I just took a course,finished it up, called sex and
RLT.
So I learned kind of how toweave in a couple's sexual
(00:45):
dynamic into kind of the RLT arc.
It was super helpful andbecause this topic is coming up
so often in my practice, I havekind of just dove in with books.
I have multiple books on mynightstand.
I'm listening to books andtaking whatever classes and
(01:05):
information I can get my handson on how these dynamics play
out, and so I'm ready to share alittle bit of what I'm learning
here on the podcast.
So we will be talking aboutsexual intimacy.
If you have little ones around,maybe put in some headphones.
We won't be talking aboutanything graphic, but I will be
using the word sex.
(01:26):
So in today's episode I reallywanted to talk about why sexual
disconnection happens inlong-term relationships, the
psychological and relationaldynamics that are at play when
we feel sexually disconnectedfrom our partner, as well as
give you some concrete stepsthat you can take right now to
(01:47):
bring passion and intimacy backinto your relationship.
Sound good?
All right, let's get started.
So I hear so much from couplesin my practice, but also just
kind of around town when I'mwith my friends and things like
that.
We love each other, butsometimes the sex is kind of
around town.
When I'm with my friends andthings like that, we love each
other, but sometimes the sex iskind of like meh right, many
(02:09):
couples report feeling more likeroommates, which is part of my
brand.
I help you ditch resentment androommate syndrome and get back
to that intimate friendship andpassionate partnership that we
all long for.
But what I want to make reallyclear is that if you feel like
your sex life is lacking, it hasless to do with low libido or
(02:35):
lack of attraction to yourpartner, and actually it has a
lot to do with emotionalpatterns that you haven't
recognized yet Now I do want tomake clear because this is a
very prevalent thought amongtherapists especially couples
therapists and coaches that ifyou kind of nurture the
(02:55):
emotional relationship, if youhelp a couple feel emotionally
connected, that their sex lifewill just follow suit.
And I want to make clear thatthat's not the case, that there
are separate dynamics takingplace in your emotional
relationship versus your sexualrelationship.
There are actually so manyfactors that play into your
(03:19):
sexual relationship that don'tnecessarily affect the emotional
relationship.
So if you're looking for acounselor or you're looking for
a coach or somebody to help youthrough this, one of the
questions that you could ask isdo you deal with our emotional
relationships separate from oursexual relationship?
Because they are separate, alot of couples who feel
(03:41):
disconnected emotionally mightfeel absolutely fine about their
sex life, or couples who arefeeling great emotionally are
really struggling with their sexlife, so the two aren't
necessarily exactly correlated.
So recently I finished the bookPassionate Marriage by David
Schnarch, and he is one of myfavorite experts on the topic of
(04:05):
how to create passion withinyour marriage, and one of the
big topics or factors that hetalks about when you're wanting
to create a better sexualrelationship is this idea of
differentiation.
Now, it's a complicated ideathat has lots of parts, but
simply defined differentiationmeans being able to hold onto or
(04:29):
recognize your sense ofseparateness in the face of
being together with asignificant other person.
So he also talks about beingable to emotionally regulate and
hold onto yourself when thingsaren't going your way.
But a good example of this isbeing able to really maintain a
(04:52):
sense of separateness orindependence, even when your
partner might disagree or seethings differently or not
support you in the way that youthink that they should.
So an example from my ownmarriage is when I wanted to get
started as a couples coach many, many years ago, and I remember
(05:12):
I really wanted to be an authorand write books.
I remember my husband beingvery hesitant, like he was
nervous for me, and it's notbecause he wasn't supportive,
it's just, a he didn't see myvision and B he was very
concerned about what peoplewould think.
We are part of a veryconservative religion and our
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family and our social group arevery conservative, and so the
idea of me talking aboutintimacy or sexuality or
anything like that online, hefelt like, would probably catch
a lot of criticism and judgment.
And he was right.
I did have to overcome a lot ofcriticism and I still do for
(05:54):
the things that I talk aboutpublicly.
Now what differentiation lookslike is me taking that feedback
from my husband and appreciatingit, but also sticking to my
guns.
Now I really wanted to do this,and I always have.
I feel very passionate about mycalling to help couples with
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emotional, physical and sexualintimacy, and so I was willing
to undergo all of that.
I was willing to kind of standup for myself when my husband
was like I don't know if youshould do that, I feel a little
bit nervous for you, I justdon't know how that's going to
go.
I was able to say thank you foryour concern.
I do appreciate that, but I dofeel strongly that this is what
(06:38):
I need to be doing.
I feel very called in thisdirection.
So I am going to continue to dothat and I want to hear your
feedback and your opinions, butI'm still going to do this thing
that's in my heart that I feelvery called to do.
So that is an example ofdifferentiation.
Now the opposite might looklike oh, you're right, I
(06:59):
probably shouldn't do that andthat would be not good for me
and I don't want to do somethingthat makes you uncomfortable or
nervous, right?
So that would beundifferentiated, and that's the
type of thing that killspassion.
So me being able to kind ofstand on my own two feet in the
face of his uncertainty is whatcreates strong, differentiated
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couples.
So a quote from David Schnarchis people who can't stand the
anxiety of maintaining their ownselfhood in an intimate
relationship will opt forcontrol or distance instead.
So that's a very like layeredquote, but it gives you an idea
that it does cause anxiety whenyour partner doesn't see it your
(07:45):
way or doesn't support you.
But if you can maintain yourown sense of selfhood in the
face of that, you are creating avery healthy dynamic in your
relationship.
He also talks about how couplesconfuse emotional fusion or
enmeshment or codependence.
It's called by all of thoseterms with intimacy and that
(08:08):
doesn't necessarily mean thesame thing.
Right?
So you can be intimate andreally know your partner and
want to know them and understandthem without being codependent
or enmeshed or kind of dependenton each other to gain your own
sense of self.
Does that make sense?
So when you're in mesh orcodependent or you depend on
(08:31):
each other for your own sense ofwellbeing, that kills passion.
But passion really thrives whenboth partners remain
emotionally connected, sointimate but also self-defined.
So you need that sense ofseparateness, that you're both
your own individuals and thatthere's room for both of you in
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the relationship to develop andevolve and become who you're
meant to become.
But you can do so choosing eachother.
So another marriage kind of sexresearcher that I follow and
love and have read her booksrepeatedly is Emily Nagoski, and
she talks about how context iseverything.
(09:18):
So desire isn't just spontaneous, it's responsive.
So you may have heard me talkabout this before, the
difference between responsiveand spontaneous desire.
But what's happening around youdeeply impacts how you feel
about sex in any certain moment.
So a good example of this is,for example, if I'm working at
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my computer on a spreadsheet orsomething that's complicated and
taking a lot of my brain spaceand my partner comes in and is
like, hey, you want to go to thebedroom.
He might be feeling spontaneousdesire, where I am definitely
not in the mood when I'mcrunching numbers to just
immediately be like, oh yeah,let's do it Right.
(10:01):
So you have to be aware of whatyour partner is thinking about
and experiencing and that comeswith good communication Like,
hey, a better, instead of myhusband coming in and saying hey
, do you want to get busy in thebedroom right now, while I'm in
the middle of something, he maycome in and be like hey, what
are you working on?
Is there anything I can do tohelp?
I would love to spend some timewith you when you're finished
(10:24):
with that project.
You know, maybe in an hour orso we can connect in the bedroom
, and that would be a muchbetter way to prepare me and get
me kind of thinking in thatdirection, instead of just
assuming that I can go fromcrunching numbers to a beast in
the bedroom, right?
So a lot of what Emily Nagoskiteaches and kind of brings to
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the forefront in her book isthat sometimes it's not that
there's anything wrong with yourlibido or your desire or
anything like that.
It's just about workingtogether to remove stress and
resentment and those types ofthings that put a damper on your
level of desire.
And if you can do that togetherwith your spouse, that's a
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really emotionally connectingexercise.
So, moving on, you guys know Italk about Terry real a ton, and
his big thing is relationalempowerment, and so his kind of
strong point is that you can'thave intimacy without truth and
vulnerability, so you have to beconnected to yourself in order
(11:32):
to be able to connect to yourpartner.
Now this includes having skillsof being able to be emotionally
honest with each other, beingable to repair after conflict,
and then mutual respect andfeeling cherished in your
relationship and by your partner.
Those are key to creatingsafety which opens the door for
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sexual expression.
Now the reality is is that loveand safety and familiarity and
all those types of things are indirect opposition with desire,
because desire requires moremystery, and this is where
Esther Perel comes in in herwork, and I just finished
listening to mating in captivityon my last road trip.
(12:13):
And this is where Esther Perelcomes in and her work, and I
just finished listening tomating in captivity on my last
road trip and it was so good.
But her main point is thatdesire needs space to breathe.
So being over familiar or overcomfortable or over enmeshed
with your partner, it kind ofkills the erotic tension.
(12:34):
So one of my favorite quotesthat she says is that fire needs
air.
Eroticism thrives in the spacebetween the self and other, and
you can see wheredifferentiation comes in there
too.
When you're fused and youdepend on each other, it's hard
to give that eroticism somebreathing room.
(12:55):
So couples need to balance thiscloseness and familiarity and
security which comes with lovewith some mystery, some play,
some novelty and some healthydistance to reignite that
attraction.
And I just did an interviewwhere I talked about the
importance of play and theimportance of making yourself
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interesting to your partner.
So I remember going throughthis period of time in our
marriage where I was having alot.
I had young children at homeand I felt like just this frumpy
, boring caretaker that I juststayed home all the time.
I never changed my clothes andmy only purpose was to clean up
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grimy macaroni and cheese andkeep these kids alive.
And I remember pouring my heartout to my husband, just being
like I don't feel sexy, I don'tfeel cool, I'm not fun, I don't
have anything to talk about withanyone, though I don't have any
friends, and I don't knowanything to talk about with
anyone though I don't have anyfriends and I don't know what to
say to you.
And I remember him just reallymatter-of-factly saying make
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yourself interesting, readsomething interesting or learn
something new, or hone one ofyour old talents or something
like that, but do something thatmakes you feel good, that you
can share with others.
That's interesting.
And I feel like that reallyfixed the problem, because I
started feeling like, okay, if I, you know, start reading about
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marriage or something that'sinteresting to me.
I think I probably was readingmore about how to mother these
children and what to feed themthat was healthy, and things
like that.
The more I kind of learned andadded to my repertoire, the more
I had value to add to.
You know, when a group of momsgot together I could say, oh,
I've been reading about healthychicken nuggets or you know how
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to make time for yourself whenyou're feel like you're raising
kids all the time, right, so Imade myself interesting and then
I had something to share withfriends, and especially with my
husband, because that's whatreally kind of ignites that
passion.
I know my husband's not readingabout healthy chicken nuggets,
but I can share what I'mlearning and that's interesting
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for both of us.
So another thing that reallyreally kills the passion and in
a couple's sex life is this ideaof obligation or duty sex.
Now we can do a whole podcastepisode about this later, and I
probably will.
It might be next week's episode, but feeling like sex is
something on your to-do list orsomething that the lower desire
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partner owes the higher desirepartner in order to keep them in
check or them not feel grumpyor give them what they need.
That's always going to plummetdesire.
So sex and eroticism thriveswhen you feel freedom to choose,
to be able to say yes or nowithout big consequences, right?
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If you feel like every time yousay no, even if you do it in a
very loving and conscious way,that you're going to pay for
that right, your partner isgoing to sulk and make you
miserable until you finally givein.
That's not freedom to choose,right.
So another thing that killspassion is falling into routine
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and roommate syndrome, whereyou're just having transactional
conversations and not reallylearning about your partner and
what they're thinking and you'rejust basically giving them the
here's what we need at thegrocery store, you need to pick
up the kids at this time.
You know those transactionalkind of routine conversations
are going to put a huge damperon libido and passion, and then
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definitely we'll talk about thisin another episode as well.
But these ideas, these genderedideas that, like sexes and
pleasure, is more for men, womenowe it to them and men need it
and women shouldn't want it,like these types of things also
are very detrimental to thepassion, and I talk about this
(17:02):
in my book.
But it's an idea that fromEmily Nagoski where when you're
young, you just it's like you'rea garden and whatever's planted
in your garden by your family,your primary caregivers, your
church, those things get plantedin your garden and you don't
really have any control overwhat those are.
(17:23):
But when we're adults in acommitted relationship like
marriage, it becomes ourresponsibility now to go through
that garden and look at what'sthere.
Now, to go through that gardenand look at what's there and if
there are weeds that are chokingout the good stuff meaning if
there are ideas, beliefs,patterns that are not serving
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you in your marriagerelationship, that are not good
for your marriage, currentrelationship then those need to
be weeded out.
They need to be plucked out.
That whole garden needs to berototilled.
And then you find the betterbeliefs, the marriage coaching
or podcasts or books that teachhealthier ideas about married
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sexuality that you can thenplant in your garden.
Those become the beautifulflowers and the fruits and
vegetables that you enjoy andthat nourish your relationship
with your spouse.
So that's a really, really,really important concept.
So that's a little bit aboutwhat kind of kills passion, what
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dynamics kind of go into yoursexual relationship with your
spouse.
And I wanted to end this episodeby giving you some concrete
steps to reignite the passion.
I want to give you some hopethat you can fix this.
You don't have to just lay downand be like, well, I guess
that's just how it's going to be, or something's broken, or
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maybe it's too hard to fix this,so we'll just have to accept it
.
Maybe it's too hard to fix this, so we'll just have to accept
it.
I want to give you some ideasof places where you can start to
kind of get that passion, thatenergy, fired back up in your
relationship.
So step one is, like I said, Iwant you to start with yourself.
There is so much that you can doon your own to really reignite
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your sexual relationship.
So you can start by asking whendo I feel the most alive?
Feeling alive is reallysynonymous with passion.
So is it when you're learningsomething new?
Is it when you're doing a hobbythat you really like?
Is it when you're followingyour heart Like, for example,
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like what I do with marriage?
Coaching is very much followingmy heart.
Lots of people don't understandwhy I spend so much time or why
I feel so much passionate aboutthis, but it makes me feel
alive, right, and so that reallydoes a lot for the passion in
me and my husband's relationship.
I mean, over the years he'sseen testimonials, in fact this
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is a good story.
I remember we traveled with ourfamily to Hawaii and like our
nightly ritual was that we wouldall my whole family would go
out to the hot, the pool, in thehot tub area in the evenings
after dinner and my kids wouldmake friends and we would sit in
the hot tub.
And my husband was, like youshould ask couples in the hot
tub questions, like you're goingto get really great answers for
(20:17):
married couples who were in thehot tub, and I thought, oh,
that's a great idea.
So this one particular eveningI was behind my, my family went
to the hot tub and I think I wasdoing some laundry or something
, and so I didn't come untillater, and so they had made some
friends in the hot tub and I,when I got there, this woman was
like oh my gosh, yes, Irecognize you.
(20:39):
You're Monica Tanner.
You have a podcast called.
It was called on the writer'sside at the time she goes.
I listened to it.
It's so good.
And this was a woman from theEast coast who was there, you
know, escaping the cold with herfamily, but she recognized me
from my work.
From the East Coast who wasthere, you know, escaping the
cold with her family, but sherecognized me from my work, from
the things that I said and did,and I helped her.
And it was so cool for myhusband and my kids to see me
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kind of get recognized for mycontribution.
So that's when I feel the mostalive and the most desirable is
when I can see that the workthat I do is actually helping
other people.
Like I love that, so I do moreof that.
My husband has often commentedlike sometimes you come out of
your office and you are just sosexy and it's because I've been
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working with couples and I'vebeen doing what charges me up.
So I come out of the office andI feel like ready to go, like I
, I love everyone.
I have so much love to givebecause I'm so filled up, right.
So start with yourself.
Do something that makes youfeel embodied.
So exercising, dance,journaling, getting dressed up,
meditating what makes you feellike sexy, like a fully embodied
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person.
That's going to help kind ofreignite that passion within
yourself and then build your ownerotic self-awareness.
And what I mean by that is findsomebody that you love to
listen to whether that's me, Imean, I would be so honored.
But or Emily Nagoski, like shedoes Ted talks, or mating in
captivity by Esther Perel thereare so many experts on the topic
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.
What helps you understand allof this better and kind of weed
out the bad stuff and bring inthe good?
So that's step one.
Start with yourself.
Step two is practicedifferentiating.
So learn to express your needswithout blaming or fixing or
trying to control your partner.
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So I really want you to thinkabout who you are as a human.
What do you need, what do youdesire?
What makes you happy?
What fills your cup?
Now I'm not telling you to tellyour partner to fill your cup.
What I'm telling you is to askyour partner to support you and
those things that fill your cup.
So if that means going to thegym every morning and having
your partner cover for you andthose things that fill your cup,
so if that means going to thegym every morning and having
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your partner cover for you, orif that means having some time
to read a book in the evenings,or if that means going for a
walk in a beautiful place thatre-energizes you.
Find something that you know inthe first one that really makes
you feel alive, and then learnhow to express that to your
partner.
And then allow your partner todifferentiate from you.
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So don't try to manage orcontrol them.
So if they love to go play golf, or you know they need to watch
a basketball game when they gethome from work, or you know,
whatever it is, they need tohave a girl's night once a month
or something like that, besupportive of that and let them
kind of get some separatenessfrom you and then create space
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for desire to grow from choice,not obligation, and so that's
really, really important.
I want you to think about howyou initiate and how you either
accept or turn down theseinitiations from your partner,
and I want you to work togetherto really find ways to bring
more choice into that.
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I want your both of you to feelvery free to either say a full
bodied yes or a no not right nowand then don't punish each
other for the no's.
Like really try to.
This is important.
Keep those microdisappointments micro, so your
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partner might not be in the moodon a random Tuesday, but that
doesn't mean you're never goingto have sexual relations ever
again.
It just means on that Tuesdayit didn't work out, but maybe
it'll work out on Thursday orFriday, right?
So make sure you're keepingthose micro disappointments
micro and not making yourpartner pay for the no.
Step three I want you to reallyprioritize turn on time.
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So this means whatever you haveto do to prepare yourself for a
sexual experience.
I want you to take the time todo that.
So if that means asking yourpartner to put the kids to bed
so that you can take a relaxinghot bath or do a little, I talk
a lot about sexy meditation,which just means it's kind of
(25:02):
like regular meditation, butthinking about something that
turns you on, or if, like a warmtowel fresh out of the dryer,
like feeling it on your skin ormaybe like some other material
like silk or something reallylike, makes you feel sensual, I
want you to tune in to whatevermakes you feel sexy and in the
mood and I want you to make timefor that.
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That's really, really important.
And then I want you to notthink about performance, so
don't focus on getting to theend or orgasm.
Sometimes you're going to havesexual experiences that don't
include any orgasm.
Sometimes one of you willorgasm and the other won't.
Sometimes you'll both orgasm.
But I want you to not focus onperformance and just focus on
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being together and reallyenjoying the sensual nature of
being together.
And then Emily Nagoski talksabout this a lot.
Sometimes you just have to putyour naked body in the bed next
to their naked body and see whathappens.
So sometimes you're just notgoing to feel in the mood.
But really healthy couplesunderstand the importance of
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being friends and then justcreating opportunities like
getting naked a couple of timesa week, maybe sleeping naked or
showering together, making timefor that really sensual
experience with each other.
Step four is going to be this isfun.
Now I know some of you aregoing to be like, oh my gosh, I
don't know how to flirt, or youknow you get really nervous when
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it comes to something like that.
But I want you to kind ofrebuild this is an idea that
Esther Perel talks about, whichis called rebuilding erotic
tension.
So that means make sure thatyou have lots of non-sexual
touch during the day, make sureyou're flirting with your
partner, make sure you're makinggoogly eyes at them across the
kitchen, maybe across thekitchen table.
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When you're even eating dinnertogether as a family, you're
kind of winking at each otherand like giving each other the
idea that, hey, I really likeyou, I get excited about
spending time with you.
Flirt, tease, make itmysterious, send them kind of a
dirty text in the middle of theday, let them know, like, hey,
I'm really excited about theidea of hanging out with you
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tonight.
And you know, maybe you have ascheduled night, like Tuesday
night, where you sleep naked oryou shower together or something
like that.
So make sure you build thatanticipation and novelty.
Like do something new together.
Like take a class that you bothmight enjoy, try a sport that
neither of you is very good at,maybe take a dance class or a
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cooking class together, maybecook, maybe try a new recipe,
but you both have to.
Like maybe you tie two of yourhands together or something like
that and just have fun togetherin the kitchen.
Like you can even include yourkids in that.
But just come up with ideaswhere you're creating some of
that erotic tension and desire.
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And then the last step isreally important and we'll do a
whole podcast episode more onthis.
But talking about sex is soimportant, so a lot of times I
will suggest a sexual check-inwith my couples once a week.
So maybe on Tuesday you go fora walk together and you call it
(28:17):
sex talk Tuesday, and on that inthat period of time, in that
conversation, all sexual topicsare fair game, and so you're
going to do these weeklycheck-ins with each other, like,
how's it going for you?
What is there anything that Icould do differently that would
make things better for you?
Or you can ask for things thatyou want or desire or feel like
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you need, right.
So it's just good to check inwith each other weekly, and I
recommend not doing this in thebedroom, although that's going
to be very enticing.
Is you like put the kids to bedor you go in your bedroom and
have this conversation?
I recommend not having thisconversation in the bedroom.
I also recommend not havingthis conversation face to face,
(29:02):
where you're looking at eachsame direction.
But you can talk about theseuncomfortable topics and that,
and it's exactly that this topicis uncomfortable for most
people, and so you're just goingto have to practice.
You're just going to have toget uncomfortable.
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You're going to have to blush alittle bit and you're going to
have to get better at bringingup these topics because they're
so important to the marriagerelationship.
So those are my five steps tokind of rekindle the flame.
And so, as we close out thisepisode, I really, really want
to drive home the point thatyour sex life isn't broken, that
(29:48):
most, if not all, couplesreally have to take some time to
address this issue specificallyin their marriage.
You're always, always, nomatter who you are, going to
have a higher desire and a lowerdesire partner, and that's not
just around sex, that's actuallyaround every topic in your
marriage.
You're going to have a partnerthat wants to keep the house
(30:10):
cleaner than the other partner.
You're going to have a partnerthat wants to exercise more or
eat more healthy or see thein-laws more often.
There's always going to be ahigher desire partner for
everything, but especially sex.
So don't think that somethingis broken just because you have
a higher desire partner and alower desire partner, or a
partner that's more prone tospontaneity versus a partner
(30:31):
that's more responsive.
Just know that these are allreally important dynamics and
topics to address in yourmarriage.
Like it will make you stronger.
And if you need help with any ofit, please reach out money at
Monica Tannercom.
I'll respond to your emails.
You can also reach out to me onsocial media.
I would love to answer yourquestions, talk more about the
(30:54):
sexual and emotional dynamic inyour marriage and how that
affects your overall happinessand feelings of fulfillment in
your life and in your marriage.
So thanks for tuning in today.
I have some great ideas fortopics for next week that are in
this kind of same vein.
If you like this, let me knowand we'll talk more about the
(31:16):
sexual dynamic in the comingweeks.
So again, we'll see you nextweek, same time, same place, and
until then, happy marriage.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, monica Tanner,and today I wanted to talk about
something a little bit morespicy.
I feel like it's been a whilesince we've talked about sexual
intimacy and for some reason itis coming up so much with my
(00:20):
couples.
I ask them when we start,always to tell me about their
sex life, and I feel like rightnow especially, a lot of my
clients are wanting to focuspredominantly on that.
So I just took a course,finished it up, called sex and
RLT.
So I learned kind of how toweave in a couple's sexual
(00:45):
dynamic into kind of the RLT arc.
It was super helpful andbecause this topic is coming up
so often in my practice, I havekind of just dove in with books.
I have multiple books on mynightstand.
I'm listening to books andtaking whatever classes and
(01:05):
information I can get my handson on how these dynamics play
out, and so I'm ready to share alittle bit of what I'm learning
here on the podcast.
So we will be talking aboutsexual intimacy.
If you have little ones around,maybe put in some headphones.
We won't be talking aboutanything graphic, but I will be
using the word sex.
(01:26):
So in today's episode I reallywanted to talk about why sexual
disconnection happens inlong-term relationships, the
psychological and relationaldynamics that are at play when
we feel sexually disconnectedfrom our partner, as well as
give you some concrete stepsthat you can take right now to
(01:47):
bring passion and intimacy backinto your relationship.
Sound good?
All right, let's get started.
So I hear so much from couplesin my practice, but also just
kind of around town when I'mwith my friends and things like
that.
We love each other, butsometimes the sex is kind of
around town.
When I'm with my friends andthings like that, we love each
other, but sometimes the sex iskind of like meh right, many
(02:09):
couples report feeling more likeroommates, which is part of my
brand.
I help you ditch resentment androommate syndrome and get back
to that intimate friendship andpassionate partnership that we
all long for.
But what I want to make reallyclear is that if you feel like
your sex life is lacking, it hasless to do with low libido or
(02:35):
lack of attraction to yourpartner, and actually it has a
lot to do with emotionalpatterns that you haven't
recognized yet Now I do want tomake clear because this is a
very prevalent thought amongtherapists especially couples
therapists and coaches that ifyou kind of nurture the
(02:55):
emotional relationship, if youhelp a couple feel emotionally
connected, that their sex lifewill just follow suit.
And I want to make clear thatthat's not the case, that there
are separate dynamics takingplace in your emotional
relationship versus your sexualrelationship.
There are actually so manyfactors that play into your
(03:19):
sexual relationship that don'tnecessarily affect the emotional
relationship.
So if you're looking for acounselor or you're looking for
a coach or somebody to help youthrough this, one of the
questions that you could ask isdo you deal with our emotional
relationships separate from oursexual relationship?
Because they are separate, alot of couples who feel
(03:41):
disconnected emotionally mightfeel absolutely fine about their
sex life, or couples who arefeeling great emotionally are
really struggling with their sexlife, so the two aren't
necessarily exactly correlated.
So recently I finished the bookPassionate Marriage by David
Schnarch, and he is one of myfavorite experts on the topic of
(04:05):
how to create passion withinyour marriage, and one of the
big topics or factors that hetalks about when you're wanting
to create a better sexualrelationship is this idea of
differentiation.
Now, it's a complicated ideathat has lots of parts, but
simply defined differentiationmeans being able to hold onto or
(04:29):
recognize your sense ofseparateness in the face of
being together with asignificant other person.
So he also talks about beingable to emotionally regulate and
hold onto yourself when thingsaren't going your way.
But a good example of this isbeing able to really maintain a
(04:52):
sense of separateness orindependence, even when your
partner might disagree or seethings differently or not
support you in the way that youthink that they should.
So an example from my ownmarriage is when I wanted to get
started as a couples coach many, many years ago, and I remember
(05:12):
I really wanted to be an authorand write books.
I remember my husband beingvery hesitant, like he was
nervous for me, and it's notbecause he wasn't supportive,
it's just, a he didn't see myvision and B he was very
concerned about what peoplewould think.
We are part of a veryconservative religion and our
(05:33):
family and our social group arevery conservative, and so the
idea of me talking aboutintimacy or sexuality or
anything like that online, hefelt like, would probably catch
a lot of criticism and judgment.
And he was right.
I did have to overcome a lot ofcriticism and I still do for
(05:54):
the things that I talk aboutpublicly.
Now what differentiation lookslike is me taking that feedback
from my husband and appreciatingit, but also sticking to my
guns.
Now I really wanted to do this,and I always have.
I feel very passionate about mycalling to help couples with
(06:15):
emotional, physical and sexualintimacy, and so I was willing
to undergo all of that.
I was willing to kind of standup for myself when my husband
was like I don't know if youshould do that, I feel a little
bit nervous for you, I justdon't know how that's going to
go.
I was able to say thank you foryour concern.
I do appreciate that, but I dofeel strongly that this is what
(06:38):
I need to be doing.
I feel very called in thisdirection.
So I am going to continue to dothat and I want to hear your
feedback and your opinions, butI'm still going to do this thing
that's in my heart that I feelvery called to do.
So that is an example ofdifferentiation.
Now the opposite might looklike oh, you're right, I
(06:59):
probably shouldn't do that andthat would be not good for me
and I don't want to do somethingthat makes you uncomfortable or
nervous, right?
So that would beundifferentiated, and that's the
type of thing that killspassion.
So me being able to kind ofstand on my own two feet in the
face of his uncertainty is whatcreates strong, differentiated
(07:23):
couples.
So a quote from David Schnarchis people who can't stand the
anxiety of maintaining their ownselfhood in an intimate
relationship will opt forcontrol or distance instead.
So that's a very like layeredquote, but it gives you an idea
that it does cause anxiety whenyour partner doesn't see it your
(07:45):
way or doesn't support you.
But if you can maintain yourown sense of selfhood in the
face of that, you are creating avery healthy dynamic in your
relationship.
He also talks about how couplesconfuse emotional fusion or
enmeshment or codependence.
It's called by all of thoseterms with intimacy and that
(08:08):
doesn't necessarily mean thesame thing.
Right?
So you can be intimate andreally know your partner and
want to know them and understandthem without being codependent
or enmeshed or kind of dependenton each other to gain your own
sense of self.
Does that make sense?
So when you're in mesh orcodependent or you depend on
(08:31):
each other for your own sense ofwellbeing, that kills passion.
But passion really thrives whenboth partners remain
emotionally connected, sointimate but also self-defined.
So you need that sense ofseparateness, that you're both
your own individuals and thatthere's room for both of you in
(08:55):
the relationship to develop andevolve and become who you're
meant to become.
But you can do so choosing eachother.
So another marriage kind of sexresearcher that I follow and
love and have read her booksrepeatedly is Emily Nagoski, and
she talks about how context iseverything.
(09:18):
So desire isn't just spontaneous, it's responsive.
So you may have heard me talkabout this before, the
difference between responsiveand spontaneous desire.
But what's happening around youdeeply impacts how you feel
about sex in any certain moment.
So a good example of this is,for example, if I'm working at
(09:40):
my computer on a spreadsheet orsomething that's complicated and
taking a lot of my brain spaceand my partner comes in and is
like, hey, you want to go to thebedroom.
He might be feeling spontaneousdesire, where I am definitely
not in the mood when I'mcrunching numbers to just
immediately be like, oh yeah,let's do it Right.
(10:01):
So you have to be aware of whatyour partner is thinking about
and experiencing and that comeswith good communication Like,
hey, a better, instead of myhusband coming in and saying hey
, do you want to get busy in thebedroom right now, while I'm in
the middle of something, he maycome in and be like hey, what
are you working on?
Is there anything I can do tohelp?
I would love to spend some timewith you when you're finished
(10:24):
with that project.
You know, maybe in an hour orso we can connect in the bedroom
, and that would be a muchbetter way to prepare me and get
me kind of thinking in thatdirection, instead of just
assuming that I can go fromcrunching numbers to a beast in
the bedroom, right?
So a lot of what Emily Nagoskiteaches and kind of brings to
(10:47):
the forefront in her book isthat sometimes it's not that
there's anything wrong with yourlibido or your desire or
anything like that.
It's just about workingtogether to remove stress and
resentment and those types ofthings that put a damper on your
level of desire.
And if you can do that togetherwith your spouse, that's a
(11:09):
really emotionally connectingexercise.
So, moving on, you guys know Italk about Terry real a ton, and
his big thing is relationalempowerment, and so his kind of
strong point is that you can'thave intimacy without truth and
vulnerability, so you have to beconnected to yourself in order
(11:32):
to be able to connect to yourpartner.
Now this includes having skillsof being able to be emotionally
honest with each other, beingable to repair after conflict,
and then mutual respect andfeeling cherished in your
relationship and by your partner.
Those are key to creatingsafety which opens the door for
(11:52):
sexual expression.
Now the reality is is that loveand safety and familiarity and
all those types of things are indirect opposition with desire,
because desire requires moremystery, and this is where
Esther Perel comes in in herwork, and I just finished
listening to mating in captivityon my last road trip.
(12:13):
And this is where Esther Perelcomes in and her work, and I
just finished listening tomating in captivity on my last
road trip and it was so good.
But her main point is thatdesire needs space to breathe.
So being over familiar or overcomfortable or over enmeshed
with your partner, it kind ofkills the erotic tension.
(12:34):
So one of my favorite quotesthat she says is that fire needs
air.
Eroticism thrives in the spacebetween the self and other, and
you can see wheredifferentiation comes in there
too.
When you're fused and youdepend on each other, it's hard
to give that eroticism somebreathing room.
(12:55):
So couples need to balance thiscloseness and familiarity and
security which comes with lovewith some mystery, some play,
some novelty and some healthydistance to reignite that
attraction.
And I just did an interviewwhere I talked about the
importance of play and theimportance of making yourself
(13:17):
interesting to your partner.
So I remember going throughthis period of time in our
marriage where I was having alot.
I had young children at homeand I felt like just this frumpy
, boring caretaker that I juststayed home all the time.
I never changed my clothes andmy only purpose was to clean up
(13:38):
grimy macaroni and cheese andkeep these kids alive.
And I remember pouring my heartout to my husband, just being
like I don't feel sexy, I don'tfeel cool, I'm not fun, I don't
have anything to talk about withanyone, though I don't have any
friends, and I don't knowanything to talk about with
anyone though I don't have anyfriends and I don't know what to
say to you.
And I remember him just reallymatter-of-factly saying make
(14:00):
yourself interesting, readsomething interesting or learn
something new, or hone one ofyour old talents or something
like that, but do something thatmakes you feel good, that you
can share with others.
That's interesting.
And I feel like that reallyfixed the problem, because I
started feeling like, okay, if I, you know, start reading about
(14:22):
marriage or something that'sinteresting to me.
I think I probably was readingmore about how to mother these
children and what to feed themthat was healthy, and things
like that.
The more I kind of learned andadded to my repertoire, the more
I had value to add to.
You know, when a group of momsgot together I could say, oh,
I've been reading about healthychicken nuggets or you know how
(14:44):
to make time for yourself whenyou're feel like you're raising
kids all the time, right, so Imade myself interesting and then
I had something to share withfriends, and especially with my
husband, because that's whatreally kind of ignites that
passion.
I know my husband's not readingabout healthy chicken nuggets,
but I can share what I'mlearning and that's interesting
(15:07):
for both of us.
So another thing that reallyreally kills the passion and in
a couple's sex life is this ideaof obligation or duty sex.
Now we can do a whole podcastepisode about this later, and I
probably will.
It might be next week's episode, but feeling like sex is
something on your to-do list orsomething that the lower desire
(15:30):
partner owes the higher desirepartner in order to keep them in
check or them not feel grumpyor give them what they need.
That's always going to plummetdesire.
So sex and eroticism thriveswhen you feel freedom to choose,
to be able to say yes or nowithout big consequences, right?
(15:55):
If you feel like every time yousay no, even if you do it in a
very loving and conscious way,that you're going to pay for
that right, your partner isgoing to sulk and make you
miserable until you finally givein.
That's not freedom to choose,right.
So another thing that killspassion is falling into routine
(16:17):
and roommate syndrome, whereyou're just having transactional
conversations and not reallylearning about your partner and
what they're thinking and you'rejust basically giving them the
here's what we need at thegrocery store, you need to pick
up the kids at this time.
You know those transactionalkind of routine conversations
are going to put a huge damperon libido and passion, and then
(16:41):
definitely we'll talk about thisin another episode as well.
But these ideas, these genderedideas that, like sexes and
pleasure, is more for men, womenowe it to them and men need it
and women shouldn't want it,like these types of things also
are very detrimental to thepassion, and I talk about this
(17:02):
in my book.
But it's an idea that fromEmily Nagoski where when you're
young, you just it's like you'rea garden and whatever's planted
in your garden by your family,your primary caregivers, your
church, those things get plantedin your garden and you don't
really have any control overwhat those are.
(17:23):
But when we're adults in acommitted relationship like
marriage, it becomes ourresponsibility now to go through
that garden and look at what'sthere.
Now, to go through that gardenand look at what's there and if
there are weeds that are chokingout the good stuff meaning if
there are ideas, beliefs,patterns that are not serving
(17:43):
you in your marriagerelationship, that are not good
for your marriage, currentrelationship then those need to
be weeded out.
They need to be plucked out.
That whole garden needs to berototilled.
And then you find the betterbeliefs, the marriage coaching
or podcasts or books that teachhealthier ideas about married
(18:06):
sexuality that you can thenplant in your garden.
Those become the beautifulflowers and the fruits and
vegetables that you enjoy andthat nourish your relationship
with your spouse.
So that's a really, really,really important concept.
So that's a little bit aboutwhat kind of kills passion, what
(18:26):
dynamics kind of go into yoursexual relationship with your
spouse.
And I wanted to end this episodeby giving you some concrete
steps to reignite the passion.
I want to give you some hopethat you can fix this.
You don't have to just lay downand be like, well, I guess
that's just how it's going to be, or something's broken, or
(18:48):
maybe it's too hard to fix this,so we'll just have to accept it
.
Maybe it's too hard to fix this, so we'll just have to accept
it.
I want to give you some ideasof places where you can start to
kind of get that passion, thatenergy, fired back up in your
relationship.
So step one is, like I said, Iwant you to start with yourself.
There is so much that you can doon your own to really reignite
(19:13):
your sexual relationship.
So you can start by asking whendo I feel the most alive?
Feeling alive is reallysynonymous with passion.
So is it when you're learningsomething new?
Is it when you're doing a hobbythat you really like?
Is it when you're followingyour heart Like, for example,
(19:34):
like what I do with marriage?
Coaching is very much followingmy heart.
Lots of people don't understandwhy I spend so much time or why
I feel so much passionate aboutthis, but it makes me feel
alive, right, and so that reallydoes a lot for the passion in
me and my husband's relationship.
I mean, over the years he'sseen testimonials, in fact this
(19:56):
is a good story.
I remember we traveled with ourfamily to Hawaii and like our
nightly ritual was that we wouldall my whole family would go
out to the hot, the pool, in thehot tub area in the evenings
after dinner and my kids wouldmake friends and we would sit in
the hot tub.
And my husband was, like youshould ask couples in the hot
tub questions, like you're goingto get really great answers for
(20:17):
married couples who were in thehot tub, and I thought, oh,
that's a great idea.
So this one particular eveningI was behind my, my family went
to the hot tub and I think I wasdoing some laundry or something
, and so I didn't come untillater, and so they had made some
friends in the hot tub and I,when I got there, this woman was
like oh my gosh, yes, Irecognize you.
(20:39):
You're Monica Tanner.
You have a podcast called.
It was called on the writer'sside at the time she goes.
I listened to it.
It's so good.
And this was a woman from theEast coast who was there, you
know, escaping the cold with herfamily, but she recognized me
from my work.
From the East Coast who wasthere, you know, escaping the
cold with her family, but sherecognized me from my work, from
the things that I said and did,and I helped her.
And it was so cool for myhusband and my kids to see me
(21:00):
kind of get recognized for mycontribution.
So that's when I feel the mostalive and the most desirable is
when I can see that the workthat I do is actually helping
other people.
Like I love that, so I do moreof that.
My husband has often commentedlike sometimes you come out of
your office and you are just sosexy and it's because I've been
(21:22):
working with couples and I'vebeen doing what charges me up.
So I come out of the office andI feel like ready to go, like I
, I love everyone.
I have so much love to givebecause I'm so filled up, right.
So start with yourself.
Do something that makes youfeel embodied.
So exercising, dance,journaling, getting dressed up,
meditating what makes you feellike sexy, like a fully embodied
(21:48):
person.
That's going to help kind ofreignite that passion within
yourself and then build your ownerotic self-awareness.
And what I mean by that is findsomebody that you love to
listen to whether that's me, Imean, I would be so honored.
But or Emily Nagoski, like shedoes Ted talks, or mating in
captivity by Esther Perel thereare so many experts on the topic
(22:13):
.
What helps you understand allof this better and kind of weed
out the bad stuff and bring inthe good?
So that's step one.
Start with yourself.
Step two is practicedifferentiating.
So learn to express your needswithout blaming or fixing or
trying to control your partner.
(22:34):
So I really want you to thinkabout who you are as a human.
What do you need, what do youdesire?
What makes you happy?
What fills your cup?
Now I'm not telling you to tellyour partner to fill your cup.
What I'm telling you is to askyour partner to support you and
those things that fill your cup.
So if that means going to thegym every morning and having
your partner cover for you andthose things that fill your cup,
so if that means going to thegym every morning and having
(22:55):
your partner cover for you, orif that means having some time
to read a book in the evenings,or if that means going for a
walk in a beautiful place thatre-energizes you.
Find something that you know inthe first one that really makes
you feel alive, and then learnhow to express that to your
partner.
And then allow your partner todifferentiate from you.
(23:17):
So don't try to manage orcontrol them.
So if they love to go play golf, or you know they need to watch
a basketball game when they gethome from work, or you know,
whatever it is, they need tohave a girl's night once a month
or something like that, besupportive of that and let them
kind of get some separatenessfrom you and then create space
(23:37):
for desire to grow from choice,not obligation, and so that's
really, really important.
I want you to think about howyou initiate and how you either
accept or turn down theseinitiations from your partner,
and I want you to work togetherto really find ways to bring
more choice into that.
(23:57):
I want your both of you to feelvery free to either say a full
bodied yes or a no not right nowand then don't punish each
other for the no's.
Like really try to.
This is important.
Keep those microdisappointments micro, so your
(24:17):
partner might not be in the moodon a random Tuesday, but that
doesn't mean you're never goingto have sexual relations ever
again.
It just means on that Tuesdayit didn't work out, but maybe
it'll work out on Thursday orFriday, right?
So make sure you're keepingthose micro disappointments
micro and not making yourpartner pay for the no.
Step three I want you to reallyprioritize turn on time.
(24:41):
So this means whatever you haveto do to prepare yourself for a
sexual experience.
I want you to take the time todo that.
So if that means asking yourpartner to put the kids to bed
so that you can take a relaxinghot bath or do a little, I talk
a lot about sexy meditation,which just means it's kind of
(25:02):
like regular meditation, butthinking about something that
turns you on, or if, like a warmtowel fresh out of the dryer,
like feeling it on your skin ormaybe like some other material
like silk or something reallylike, makes you feel sensual, I
want you to tune in to whatevermakes you feel sexy and in the
mood and I want you to make timefor that.
(25:24):
That's really, really important.
And then I want you to notthink about performance, so
don't focus on getting to theend or orgasm.
Sometimes you're going to havesexual experiences that don't
include any orgasm.
Sometimes one of you willorgasm and the other won't.
Sometimes you'll both orgasm.
But I want you to not focus onperformance and just focus on
(25:45):
being together and reallyenjoying the sensual nature of
being together.
And then Emily Nagoski talksabout this a lot.
Sometimes you just have to putyour naked body in the bed next
to their naked body and see whathappens.
So sometimes you're just notgoing to feel in the mood.
But really healthy couplesunderstand the importance of
(26:08):
being friends and then justcreating opportunities like
getting naked a couple of timesa week, maybe sleeping naked or
showering together, making timefor that really sensual
experience with each other.
Step four is going to be this isfun.
Now I know some of you aregoing to be like, oh my gosh, I
don't know how to flirt, or youknow you get really nervous when
(26:30):
it comes to something like that.
But I want you to kind ofrebuild this is an idea that
Esther Perel talks about, whichis called rebuilding erotic
tension.
So that means make sure thatyou have lots of non-sexual
touch during the day, make sureyou're flirting with your
partner, make sure you're makinggoogly eyes at them across the
kitchen, maybe across thekitchen table.
(26:52):
When you're even eating dinnertogether as a family, you're
kind of winking at each otherand like giving each other the
idea that, hey, I really likeyou, I get excited about
spending time with you.
Flirt, tease, make itmysterious, send them kind of a
dirty text in the middle of theday, let them know, like, hey,
I'm really excited about theidea of hanging out with you
(27:13):
tonight.
And you know, maybe you have ascheduled night, like Tuesday
night, where you sleep naked oryou shower together or something
like that.
So make sure you build thatanticipation and novelty.
Like do something new together.
Like take a class that you bothmight enjoy, try a sport that
neither of you is very good at,maybe take a dance class or a
(27:35):
cooking class together, maybecook, maybe try a new recipe,
but you both have to.
Like maybe you tie two of yourhands together or something like
that and just have fun togetherin the kitchen.
Like you can even include yourkids in that.
But just come up with ideaswhere you're creating some of
that erotic tension and desire.
(27:56):
And then the last step isreally important and we'll do a
whole podcast episode more onthis.
But talking about sex is soimportant, so a lot of times I
will suggest a sexual check-inwith my couples once a week.
So maybe on Tuesday you go fora walk together and you call it
(28:17):
sex talk Tuesday, and on that inthat period of time, in that
conversation, all sexual topicsare fair game, and so you're
going to do these weeklycheck-ins with each other, like,
how's it going for you?
What is there anything that Icould do differently that would
make things better for you?
Or you can ask for things thatyou want or desire or feel like
(28:42):
you need, right.
So it's just good to check inwith each other weekly, and I
recommend not doing this in thebedroom, although that's going
to be very enticing.
Is you like put the kids to bedor you go in your bedroom and
have this conversation?
I recommend not having thisconversation in the bedroom.
I also recommend not havingthis conversation face to face,
(29:02):
where you're looking at eachsame direction.
But you can talk about theseuncomfortable topics and that,
and it's exactly that this topicis uncomfortable for most
people, and so you're just goingto have to practice.
You're just going to have toget uncomfortable.
(29:23):
You're going to have to blush alittle bit and you're going to
have to get better at bringingup these topics because they're
so important to the marriagerelationship.
So those are my five steps tokind of rekindle the flame.
And so, as we close out thisepisode, I really, really want
to drive home the point thatyour sex life isn't broken, that
(29:48):
most, if not all, couplesreally have to take some time to
address this issue specificallyin their marriage.
You're always, always, nomatter who you are, going to
have a higher desire and a lowerdesire partner, and that's not
just around sex, that's actuallyaround every topic in your
marriage.
You're going to have a partnerthat wants to keep the house
(30:10):
cleaner than the other partner.
You're going to have a partnerthat wants to exercise more or
eat more healthy or see thein-laws more often.
There's always going to be ahigher desire partner for
everything, but especially sex.
So don't think that somethingis broken just because you have
a higher desire partner and alower desire partner, or a
partner that's more prone tospontaneity versus a partner
(30:31):
that's more responsive.
Just know that these are allreally important dynamics and
topics to address in yourmarriage.
Like it will make you stronger.
And if you need help with any ofit, please reach out money at
Monica Tannercom.
I'll respond to your emails.
You can also reach out to me onsocial media.
I would love to answer yourquestions, talk more about the
(30:54):
sexual and emotional dynamic inyour marriage and how that
affects your overall happinessand feelings of fulfillment in
your life and in your marriage.
So thanks for tuning in today.
I have some great ideas fortopics for next week that are in
this kind of same vein.
If you like this, let me knowand we'll talk more about the
(31:16):
sexual dynamic in the comingweeks.
So again, we'll see you nextweek, same time, same place, and
until then, happy marriage.
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