November 8, 2023 • 47 mins
Prepare yourselves for an eye-opening conversation with our esteemed guest, Marcus van der Hoven, the inspiring mind behind Mass Timber Technologies in Johannesburg, South Africa. As a pioneer of mass timber construction in a region where it was almost unheard of, Marcus brings a wealth of insights. We take a deep dive into his fascinating journey, from the struggles of establishing a CLT facility to successfully developing an 'Africanized' CLT system that is both cost-effective and less labor-intensive.
From sourcing old machines to gathering capital and launching a plant, Marcus pulls back the curtain on the intricacies of building a mass timber plant from scratch. Listen closely as we explore the untapped potential of timber as a sustainable building resource and how Mass Timber Technologies has managed to scale up its output in a significant way. We also delve into the complexities of finding the right material for mass timber structures and the balancing act between form, function, and aesthetics.
As we round off our chat with Marcus, we discuss the promising future of mass timber construction and the challenges that come with it. Marcus offers a glimpse of their journey of advocacy for mass timber usage and the importance of strategic partnerships in ensuring project success. Hear about their experiences and lessons learned from handling projects of varying scales, and how these experiences have shaped the evolution of mass Timber Technologies. Join us in this engaging conversation and gain invaluable insights from one of the industry's most innovative pioneers.
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Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bruce (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the GlobalSensation, the one, the only,
(00:24):
the undisputed heavyweightpodcast in the world the Mass
Timber Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Paul (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon, all good evening.
We're everywhere in the worldtoday.
My name is Paul Kramer, backwith another special guest
episode on the Mass TimberConstruction Podcast.
This time we're coming from alittle known region, a little
known place in the world that'sstarting to ascend quite rapidly
and quite strong, and so I havea wonderful guest today.
We're actually taking time outon our weekend to chat, which is
(01:11):
really great.
So thank you, Marcus.
Please introduce yourself, tellus a little bit about yourself
and what you're up to, andspecifically give everyone a
little bit of a preview as towhich part of the world you're
actually in.
Marcus (01:25):
Cool, all right.
Well, thanks, Paul.
Thanks for having me on thepodcast.
I'm Marcus van der Hoven.
I'm the manager, director andco-founder of Mass Timber
Technologies, which is a smallmass timber fabrication company
based in Johannesburg in SouthAfrica.
So, yeah, it's a pretty unusualspot for the sort of mass
(01:45):
timber conversation to be had.
Usually, you know, theconversation is focused more on
Europe and the US, but we'vebeen running for about two years
now with around 18 or 19 monthsof proper fabrication behind
our belt.
Yeah, I mean, the storybasically started a number of
(02:07):
years ago.
Around five or six years ago Icompleted my Masters in
architecture in Pretoria andwhich a lot of my work really
focused around the developmentof timber construction in
general, you know, to kind ofchange the landscape of how
construction works in SouthAfrica.
After that I sort of doubled ina number of different
(02:29):
industries you know, having beenmentored in the steel
fabrication industry as well asthe furniture industry and
throughout those differentindustries, and kind of just
getting a good understanding ofhow contracting and construction
you know works inside of theSouth African construction
environment, specifically thecommercial environment.
You know I thought it would bepertinent for us to try and put
(02:53):
together a system that I couldstart really enabling mass
timber or just generally timberconstruction to happen in a more
real sense.
You know, typically timberconstruction has been a very
lightweight addition to theconstruction industry.
You know it's kind of anafterthought or only if it's
really a necessity.
(03:13):
It's a brick and mortar andconcrete based system really
that we work in.
It's not really a product ofthe labour market as well that
we experienced.
But I managed to, around threeyears ago, something around that
region, find a pretty willinggroup under a construction tech
platform called Sustainable.
(03:35):
You know they were very kind tosort of co-found the business
with me, generate a small sortof seed funding sort of
allocation to get to the systemworking.
And you know the rest hasreally been history from that
point.
So yeah, I mean interestingthings we've had to kind of work
out is, you know, obviously themarket in South Africa was
(03:59):
pretty much non-existent.
I mean there was this one otherplayer in the country, also
relatively small compared towhat you experienced in the rest
of the globe and really focusedon either niche projects or
architects that are kind offocused on developing
specifically with that item inmind.
And you know the system couldkind of.
You know the companies couldbasically kind of exist on that
(04:22):
but our drivers really to startfinding ways to make it way more
accessible, way more costeffective and really start
tackling some more real buildingproblems.
So you know the hurdlesobviously, the intense amount or
cost really attached to puttingtogether a CLT facility.
That was the massive thing thatwe had to kind of work around.
(04:42):
So we like to call our systemkind of an Africanized CLT
system.
So you know, predominantlyfocusing around introducing a
slightly more labor intensivecomponent, less automation
involved, but aspiring to createa product that kind of fights
on the same level as theEuropean and US based materials.
So yeah, it took a couple ofmonths for us to sort of develop
(05:06):
our own press, which we kind ofretrofitted out of an existing
callous machine that we thenkind of retrofitted and rebuilt
and kind of.
You know it's a bit of a MadMax machine but ultimately it
worked.
You know we developed a roboticCNC system using a KUKA robot
arm on a linear positioner, allthe spindles and sort of cutting
(05:29):
attachments attached to that.
You know all the I guess whatwe would say it's the back end
of our like fabrication system.
So our building information,modeling all the way through the
fabrication, sort of layouts,cnc work, being able to cut out
pretty complex geometries out ofCLT, and then, yeah, we kind of
(05:50):
just built it all togetherunder one roof and it's been
quite a big journey.
Paul (05:58):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I think the most amazing partabout all of that was definitely
the Mad Max invention of yourpress.
I think anyone in Australiathat's listening to this will be
very pleased to hear Mad Maxreference thrown into a massive
construction podcast.
It sounds like an amazingjourney and I've got a question
for you, given that you wereindoctrinated into this
(06:20):
traditional materials area andlook, you know timbers not part
necessarily of the big two, it'sstarting to get that prominence
what was the thing thattransformed you to go?
You know what I respect.
You know concrete and steel,bricks and mortar of having a
place, but I've got thisaffinity to timber and I'm just
really interested in what thegenesis was for you when you
(06:42):
looked at that through your sortof you know apprenticeship.
Marcus (06:47):
Look, I mean it certainly is.
You know, having been sort oftrained in understanding the
full building system as anarchitect, you know you kind of
have an opportunity to reallyinterrogate individual
components of the buildingsystem and where there might be
opportunities for us to reallymake the system better.
You know it's so often that wefind in construction in South
(07:09):
Africa that there's so manypoints of contention.
You know, how long doesconcrete take to dry?
Why is this not working inrelation to other materials?
How do we make the systemactually work in a more healthy,
more sustainable, functionalway?
So the original sort of sort ofdirection for us was to kind of
(07:29):
look at mass timber not reallyas a okay, well, let's go out
and build five story buildingsfrom scratch, mass timber all
the way and try and fight thatup your battle, because that
would never have made any sense.
So it was really more abouttrying to identify certain areas
of building where we couldreally make it work in a more
functional way.
So we're saying, okay, we'regoing to focus really primarily
(07:52):
on floor slab systems that caninterrogate, you know, really
interact with other buildingsystems quite easily.
You know we don't have toreinvent the wheel for the
construction industry, which isa very conservative industry in
South Africa.
You know developers, insurancecompanies, contractors
themselves are very nervous whenit comes to new technology.
So to try and limit our impactby saying, okay, well, we're
(08:15):
only really going to attack 15or 20% of the building question
and that way find a little bitmore acceptance into the market.
It's also really about whattimber can do.
You know, part of my immediatemanifesto why I really care a
lot about it is that from aresource perspective, we often
(08:39):
find that we're mining a lot ofsoil and sand and ground and
iron ore and developing massiveamounts of earth based material,
shipping them out to China toget turned into steel or
Mozambique or Egypt to cement orwhatever, and then we import
all that material back and thatcreates a massive problem when
it comes to a country which, youknow, the currency fluctuates
(09:01):
up and down, left, right andcenter and making building again
really complex.
So timber offers a really coolopportunity where you can
actually contain the entirevalue chain inside of one system
.
You know we're growing thetrees.
You know, 300 or 400 kilometersaway from our facility, it gets
processed and it gets runthrough the whole system and it
doesn't really have to touchanymore.
(09:21):
You know, nobody know not thatmany hands do you need to touch
that material.
So there is an opportunity forus here to really find a way to
scale up, you know, turn into amore rapid building system, find
a way to actually create a bitof system to build way more
sustainable way to build.
And it's sitting on ourdoorstep.
So it was a bit of a no-brainerreally, for me at least, to
(09:41):
find a way to create more valueon the material that we have.
Paul (09:45):
Brilliant and just in terms of your plant and in
particularly a Mad Max press,when did you, when did you get
the sort of the capital to raisefor the investment in the
equipment and did you just have,like some callouso equipment
lying around one day and yousaid I'll take that.
Thanks very much, or did youhave to bring it in?
Marcus (10:07):
I guess that's kind of you know, that's kind of the
spark that you need to kind ofbuild a system like this, you
know, from scratch is spendingpretty much every day on the
phone with every sawmill in thecountry looking for old machines
, looking at opportunities,really find a way to to like
make it work, you know.
(10:27):
So the story really started.
I mean, I was still runninganother business before this and
I was actually looking for afinger-jointing plant for that
business and the guy who wassupplying the machinery to me
let me know, because we werehaving a discussion about, you
know, my dreams of buildingmaster systems in the country
and he said, oh man, you know,there's this old hot press, that
(10:48):
kind of so built a number ofyears ago and whatever, and
sitting outside the sawmill inCusadunatol and they kind of
want to just scrap it or throwit away, whatever, and they'll
take you know X amount of moneyfor it, which was really it was
an absolute steal to get it.
And we then basically said,okay, well, cool, we've got
enough capital in our ownpockets to maybe just, you know,
get this thing rolling.
And that was really the sort ofinception of really building a
(11:11):
foundation for us to then golook for some more serious
funding.
So our partners at thesustainable group I mean they
were looking for systems for oneof their own sort of prefab
building systems that they were,they were putting together they
were struggling to find aconsistent source of CLT and I
said, well, look, I'm on thisjourney and they, they were
quite happy to kind of throw alittle bit of cash at us to just
(11:32):
kind of get the ball rolling.
That then started to snowballand as, as sort of investment
processes worked, we found morepeople interested.
We managed to get a furthersort of investment through some
you know, external parties,which really allowed us to get
enough capital together toreally build this press, get all
of our machining and materialsort of processing sorted out
(11:56):
and get what we're callingreally our feasibility plant in
place, you know.
So right now we're it's notreally mega quantities that
we're putting out at this pointI mean we're running probably
between you know, 180 and 300cubes of material per month and
that really created a reallystrong foundation for us to then
go to really more forestrybased investment companies and
(12:18):
say, look, you know, we'veproved it, we built the market.
This was coming down thepipeline.
We've managed to get these fewjobs.
You know we got interest in EastAfrica, all the way up to the
Middle East and even intoAustralia to start supplying
this material, and they werethought, okay, cool, well, if
you guys can 10x this output or5x this output I think it is to,
you know, 1000 cubes a monthand, you know, trying to aim for
(12:39):
around a 10,000 cubic meterfacility per annum then we can
really start chatting.
So we then developed the systemto say, well, cool, we'll
integrate these two things,we'll build another press here
and we'll get another sort ofmaterial move in line in place.
Paul (12:53):
And and that managed to you, that managed to get us
where we are right now, lookingto kind of 5x within the next
year, our capability, yeah Wellit sounds exactly like our
journey in New Zealand with theX-Lamb plant in New Zealand,
with you know highly manuallabour intensive plant, a Wyman
bridge, a vacuum press.
(13:16):
You know an old finger joiningsystem, with you know people
putting and milling boards thatare finger jointed through a
manual planer.
You know using a hitman tosonically grade and read the
moisture for each of the boards.
It sounds exactly like thatjourney.
And then you contrast that withthe monolithic you know, 25
(13:36):
million dollar investment in thebig automated plant we did in
Australia and you know the restis history.
But everything you've spokenabout is I think it's the
entrepreneurial spirit in tryingto get a mass timber plant up
and running.
Marcus (13:50):
Right, yeah, yeah yeah, and it's a complete chicken in X
situation.
You know, I mean initially wekind of put the framework
together to go, you know, importa plant out of Finland or or
we're out of Italy or something,and the numbers are just
astronomical.
And for us to go and put asystem like that and even if we
could raise the funds I mean,you know it's fundraising is
(14:10):
fairly simple really when youput it together, but the risk,
the risk associated to putting aplant that puts out that much
volume the market isn't thereyet we're not really, you know,
really to actually execute whatwe need to it just doesn't
really make sense.
So our model works slightlydifferently from that we're
saying, you know, yeah, like wedon't really like the concept of
decentralization.
You know it's difficult tomanage multiple sites, but
(14:32):
ultimately it's about being ableto address the question, you
know, of our geographicalcomposition as an African how
far our cities are away fromeach other, how does transport
work, where are the trees andhow do you build the system.
Is a mega plant the rightanswer?
And we don't think so.
We think it comes down tohaving sort of more micro plants
that can, that can access andservice so slightly more direct
(14:55):
markets, where they where theyactually are.
Paul (14:57):
Yeah, and that's kind of the route that we're exploring.
They go with the plantations,right.
They go with your materialsource and where the populace is
, and I think yeah, you've hiton a chord there that
centralizing and bringingeverything to Mecca and then
producing these amazing panelsto build the cities might not be
the best way to go.
(15:18):
So it's an interesting concept.
And what material are you using, and are you using a
homogeneous layup in yourlamella all the way through your
panels, or are you using aheterogeneous layup like we did?
Marcus (15:32):
so, yeah, we, we play around with a couple of
different options.
I mean, look, initially andpredominantly we use our SA pine
.
You know it's a blend ofmultiple different species, as
it happens all over the world.
But from a cost perspective wesee that pretty much 95% of our
work is conducted in that pinematerial.
(15:54):
We also have, much like youguys, in in Australia, new
Zealand, a huge resource ofeucalyptus which I think if for
those guys listening, I thinkthat's going to be the next sort
of massive milestone in in masstimbers, hardwood, hardwood clt
, and how we can actuallydevelop that system.
So we're playing around withsome of the, the sort of
(16:16):
different layup, layup methods.
You know, eucalyptus on theexternal layers, the primary
sort of strength direction, andfilling up the rest of the panel
with with your sort of likeslightly less dense pine.
And yeah, we've got some reallystrong ties with a number of
universities in the country whoare doing sort of continuous
testing for us now and within afew months I expect to to
hopefully release another designguide which is really focused
(16:38):
on on sort of the hardwood cltas well.
But yeah, the the pine is is iswhat we use in, you know, as a
majority of our work is a bigsort of like strange sort of
feeling around pine in SouthAfrica as people sort of feeling
is that it's not that greatquality.
But our feeling after doingsome really sort of really
(16:59):
intensive testing is that that'snot really the you know the
case and we're managing to.
I mean, maybe not quite asdense and strong as a spruce
sort of out of Europe, but yeah,it's definitely up there with
those materials.
You know, our best of itcompetes quite strongly with
what we're seeing coming out ofthe derisible.
Paul (17:18):
Yeah, well, we had the same problems.
Pineas radiata not veryaesthetic pleasing, you know
very much goes golden brownpretty quickly once it's exposed
to the UV light and lots ofknots that are very large, which
is very contrasting to Europeanspruce, which is very tight
knots but more of them beautifulblonde material.
(17:39):
And then when you bring theeucalyptus in, you know that
material has this beautifulblondness, but you can go all
the way through to dark brownsand pinks as well.
So, it's just depends on whatyou're actually looking for
aesthetically.
And then, are you expressingthe material?
Are you exposing the materialor are you going to cover it all
(18:00):
up?
And I think it's about form,function, aesthetics.
And we, we tussled with tryingto do an overlay board for the
aesthetic visual bit.
We worked on pressing in adigital lamella on top with a
vacuum press that then had thataesthetic layer embedded in it.
(18:20):
And then you've got thechallenge of well, once you put
that wall in place in a building, it's almost like furniture.
You get a scuff mark from anelectrician, yeah, yeah, and
you've lost.
Yeah, it's a disaster here.
So you've got all thesebalances that need to happen
right.
Marcus (18:36):
Yeah it's, it's a.
It was a big departure as faras somebody trying to get
contracted to that kind ofunderstand the you got to
protect the materials.
It's got to be sort of coveredwhen it gets decided to a
certain degree.
I mean, you know, guys areworried that things get rained
on and we say it's not a problemso long as it dries up.
But but you can't have 16builders running around.
They were scaffolding and youknow you got to make sure that
(18:58):
you've got something on the onthe panel to make sure that it's
that it's coming.
You know, and we've got apretty cool argument going on in
our office right now where youknow my, my sort of feeling and
my direction is that we need tocover the material.
You know, I don't really wantto see the pile.
I want, you know, I'm all forlike like high speed, high
volume, get it out there, buildthis, let's go build big, cover
it, let it be a, clad it andjust make sure that everything
(19:20):
runs where it needs to.
And so I'm not too botheredabout what it looks like.
I mean, it's strange that a guywho's so into wood doesn't want
wood.
If I own a, I find it a bitlike it, like it tends to have
suddenly walls and your roof andeverything would.
But that's kind of definitelysee the opportunity and having
that finish.
You know we do work on certainfinishes, like if we do like a
(19:42):
slight tint of white in thematerial and kind of floor
sealants on it and just makesure that it doesn't go that
yellow or orange sort of colortoo quickly, you know, trying to
limit that oxidization,oxidization on site.
So yeah, there's a thousandways to skin that cap.
But you know, for us we'reseeing the use of floor slabs,
you know, guys trying topreserve the ceilings, and then
(20:04):
it's not so difficult to handle,you know, it's just pretty cool
.
Paul (20:09):
And are you using a brand adhesive and do you need a
primer for your?
You'll probably need it foryour eucalyptus, but might not
need it for your pine, and butwould I be right in that?
Marcus (20:22):
No, I mean we're using the sort of typical Henkel PUR
system.
We find like we're not tryingto reinvent the wheel on all
fronts.
So we found that that's a verypopular adhesive that's being
used worldwide.
You know, I don't really haveto go and explain to people why
we're using this adhesive.
It's pretty well proven.
We're in discussion with acouple of local producers simply
(20:45):
because you know polyurethaneis expensive.
It's really, when it comes downto, we need this stock and it's
sitting in Germany, we have tofly it and it becomes a bit
difficult to manage it.
So we've got some localmanufacturers trying to develop
different systems for us, butthat's going to be a long way
off, I think.
Still so, running thepolyurethane is probably going
to be a set for for quite sometime.
Paul (21:07):
And have you spoken to them about HBS versus HBX with
the higher heat resistance, pur,yet, or are you still sitting
with HBS, not at?
Marcus (21:16):
this point, the HBS at this stage is what we're using.
Again, when it comes down tothe fire requirement and sort of
the heat, the heat capabilityof that material, you know the
conversation is ultimately comesdown to the charring rates that
we have and we almost don'teven get to the adhesive.
It's simply down to half thecost of the panel need to be to
(21:38):
just get over the line firstly.
So I mean we've had some prettyinteresting examples of panel
designs, floor slab designswe've done, that can yield a two
hour fire rating inside of asort of a commercial structure.
We have very strict buildingcodes in South Africa, so we
have to make sure that.
You know we've got all of ourthings worked out, lots of
(21:59):
testing for around fires beingdone and you know it's becoming
less of a question inside of ourprojects now, which is quite
cool.
Paul (22:07):
And you've released a design guide.
There's an impressive website.
You've effectively arrived tothe world.
What are the sort of thingsthat you're getting involved
with now?
Are you having your teamsengage with development and
construction and architecturaland industrial engineering teams
to progress projects, or areyou coming in at the back end
(22:28):
offering a substitution as analternative design, or are you
doing a combination of both?
Marcus (22:35):
It's a mad combination of both, so it's quite fun.
I've got a really young team.
I think the sort of average agein our team is probably 30.
So we're a very high energyfocused team.
You know, we've got everythingfrom sort of like your technical
side a lot of engineeringbackground, a lot of
architecture and then certainlyto manage the production system
as well.
So our next year is going toreally be around making a
(22:59):
slightly more consistent outputof material, not a lot of
pipelines developed the way itneeds to.
I'm running on advocacy left,right and center, where it's
just about going to conferenceafter conference after
conference, speaking toarchitects, engaging with
quantity surveyors, engagingwith developers, and that's
really our next step.
The first move for next year isabout saying, hey, we've really
spoiled the architects andengineers now with this design
(23:22):
guide.
It's about getting into theconversation, or into the room
rather, with developers,quantity surveyors, making sure
that people understand thesystem of costing or how the
insurance environment works inthis country and why we
shouldn't worry so much aboutfire.
And it's really about trying toget our foot into slightly
larger developments, making surethat you know we really get
(23:42):
engaged with the projecttimeline right from the start.
I mean, it's a massive time lagperiod really, from the start
of the project conversation allthe way to its conception.
You know, we see, on smallerprojects you take up to six or
seven months for a project toreally materialize.
And on some of the largerprojects, you know, we've got
things that are like five yearsdown the line that we need to
kind of figure out.
But yeah, advocacy is first,you know, driving the sales as
(24:06):
hard as we can to just sort ofget the material more understood
and more into environment.
And yeah, in terms of our sortof technical development work,
you know, I think the designguide offered such a huge, it
was such a good resource reallyfor people to kind of just not
have to phone us and have a sixhour conversation to understand
(24:27):
the material and say, oh, youknow, please, you know, help me
figure this out.
You know, it was a way, moresuccessful way, of saying here
are your values, here are yourspans.
You know, get the idea on paperand then we can help you work
through that system.
So so, providing documentationthat helps do that is is what we
kind of strive for.
It's about converting details,because all we have access to is
(24:48):
what guys in Sweden aredetailing, you know, and it's
completely different context,completely different
environments, and trying toconvert our work and our context
and our building technologiesand requirements into something
that an architect can say well,it's how I dress a window, it's
how I dress waterproofing, it'show I dress a floor snap.
That's really what we need tocarry on working on.
So you know, we'll releasesomething for, like, staircases
(25:08):
and how we might do a staircaseto your GLT.
You know, like Luland, which wealso supply at MTT, you know
there's so little informationlocally about, like how spans
work and how deep your beams go,and engineers panic and then
they make the beams too big andthey become too expensive.
So being able to be able to putinformation together that just
(25:29):
gets just gets the basicinformation on the project
team's sort of desks is whatwe're after for the next few
months.
Paul (25:36):
Oh, look, I think you've got the right attitude and that
is just hit on all fronts.
And look, I did the analysiswhen we first started and it was
six months on average for a 50cubic meter job, and if you were
looking at a thousand cubicmeter job, which is the
equivalent to a 10 storybuilding roughly depending on
how you structure it you'relooking at, you know, 18 months
(25:58):
for inception, up to three yearsfor delivery, and so that was
sort of the time span.
So when you're looking at yourpipelines and you're going,
what's that opportunity andwhat's that opportunity, you'll
be able to see that you need,you know, 10 fold the 50 cubic
meter jobs to make up for one ofthe medium jobs you've got.
Coming through your pipeline,the big one falls over.
(26:19):
You could have tried and fillthat pipeline somewhere, right.
Marcus (26:23):
Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, from a businessperspective.
I mean, I think it's somethingthat people don't really
understand about CLT is thatit's not a commodity.
You can't trade CLT like as abunch of slabs and send it out
of okay, cool, we can make 10slabs a month and sell them to
the hardware store.
It doesn't really work likethat.
It's a very bespoke productthat focuses on addressing a
(26:44):
very specific building problemand we're addressing that by
integrating a little bit ofGLULAM manufacturer, which can
in certain instances be aslightly more commoditized
product that tends to sort ofjust level up the cash flow a
little bit and it's a bit moreconsistent.
There's a lot of opportunitiesin GLULAM that just kind of help
us develop it, but it alsoopens up a door for us to start
(27:06):
working on systems that we canget out, that work together, you
know, and and just find a wayto get more timber into the
building industry.
Paul (27:14):
Yeah, Well, when you have longer span requirements, you
can use your GLT to supportsystems right and I think this
is one of the things that is thenext evolution for our mass
timber construction globalmarket.
I think probably store Enzo isprobably the first one to virtue
signal where we're going.
But it's actually aboutsolutions.
(27:35):
You know, it's the lift coresolution, it's the stair
solution, it's the floorsolution, it's the adaptive
reuse solution, it's the wallpanel hybrid solution, it's the
you know whatever comes nextprefabricated solution.
And I think when we think 2D,flat pack, panelized mass timber
, we don't often think 3D,volumetric.
(27:57):
But I actually think it's goingto be these hybrids of kits, of
parts, panels, you know, these2D slash, 3d assemblies and then
volumetrics, and so I think ourdesign guides will change over
time to offer a catalogue ofthings that people can tap into.
But we're still infantile.
I think we're still trying towork out how do we sell the
(28:19):
panel and the concept of thispanel fitting with insider
building project.
Once it gets that, I thinkwe're going to get this next
genesis, exactly Because that'swhere the cost argument comes in
.
Marcus (28:31):
On a project team, I mean, what are we comparing CLT
to?
And it's oftentimes concretethat's poured on site to
institute, and that's reallywhere we're what we're fighting
against, you know.
So, until we find a way todeliver a system that's like
okay, well, we're not evenspeaking about floor slabs and
concrete and comparing the two.
We're talking about deliveringa system that does X, Y and Z,
(28:52):
you know like, this is wherewe're thinking, this is where
we're pushing it.
That's that's really the.
That's the good, that's a goodfight that we need to be
fighting.
I agree, yeah.
Paul (28:59):
And if you can give me a bit of a taster right, because
at the moment I'm talking topeople in other countries around
the world that are saying, look, there's a huge desirability
between a fundamental core ofarchitects, engineers and
constructors to do mass timber,but we're hitting some barriers
and the big barrier is how do weget it in to validate it as
(29:20):
being something that'sevidentiary and supported?
So, you know, the concepts thatwe've come up with are like
doing demos in, like the citysquare, through a place that
might be related to, you know,the local council or the
government.
What was the Genesis journeyfor you and for the others in
Africa at large?
(29:40):
What was the Genesis for you?
To get it across the line,because that's really the
hardest part, right, to overcomethe inertia.
Marcus (29:50):
Yeah, I think a really big step that was made.
And I mean I've got to do aquick shout out to Jamie Smiley.
He runs Xlam in Cape Town andhe was one of the sort of big
pioneers in getting ourconstruction code, the CLT
performance rated,cross-laminated to the code over
the line with the university ofStalingbosch and then their
(30:11):
structural lab there.
That was a big step in terms ofus again just being able to
move the material into aconstruction environment without
having to really fight too manyor put out too many fires in
terms of the industry pushingback on it.
So without that I think it'sgoing to be nearly impossible
(30:31):
for a system to really growinside of a context.
The other thing is, obviously,is the regulations of being able
to compare your material to therest of the world.
I mean, where is theopportunity really?
Is it?
Can master really be amassively exportable product?
And I do think so.
I mean, one of our largerprojects has been sent off to
(30:51):
Zanzibar.
We've got a reallywell-positioned, at least in the
TTC service, africa projectsbeing developed in Africa and
finding ways to design for yourmaterial to really just become
an efficient product.
The novelty I think is prettymuch over this hype of CLT going
(31:12):
to LinkedIn and everybody'stalking oh, clt is the future.
I think that novelty isprobably going to fade away
after a while and we need towork really hard in the next few
years to make sure that we'reactually positioned well to make
sure this works.
So Hemp Creek comes and startsgetting all the praise and
ultimately they're coming afterus.
(31:34):
But it's about using this hyperight now to make sure that
we're developing as fast as wecan and it's about positioning
ourselves to work pretty well.
So the code worked really well.
It's about finding the rightmaterial.
I know how much work it takesand I'm sure a lot of other
producers will attest to justbeing able to manage your
volumes, ensuring that thequality of your material is
(31:54):
where it needs to be, and howyou address your supply chain.
I mean, the forestry industry isgoing through so many
fluctuations, ups and downs.
The last three years in thetimber industry has just been
absolutely mad in terms oftrying to work out what your
timber actually costs.
So being able to partner upwith guys and build an
environment that really createssurety that the material is
(32:19):
going to do what it needs to do,and it's about producers taking
care of each other, pushingeach other to say if one of
these buildings fails, what'sthat going to do to the whole
industry?
And how do we keep each otheraccountable to make sure that
this thing is really where itneeds to be?
And my feeling comes back thento saying that standardization
and having those standards andbuilding codes in place and us
(32:41):
being able to conform to them tothe highest level is where this
material really starts to makethe difference.
Paul (32:47):
Yeah, I think you're right .
The evidence is there that wherethere's been a code development
, code in action, there is thisdynamic that says where there
isn't a presence of the code,change, the industry is quite
fallible and can be very fragile.
But where you develop this code,you create this strength of
(33:09):
core and the core then deliverson the value proposition because
people have this confidencethat somebody else has looked at
this, verified it and gone.
This is a plausible system.
And now we've got this thingcalled critical mass globally
right that when we look back 12years ago, you could count on
one hand, two hands maybe howmany plants were producing
(33:30):
commercial mass timber for theglobal market, absolutely.
And now that's completelytransformed.
And so we've seen this genesisand this change happen and I
think that's what's reallyspurring on and supporting
others.
So people that are looking todo this, I agree with your story
.
Your story is very similar toeveryone else's story that where
the markets are held is getinvolved with the regulatory
(33:52):
bodies through the university,start to test the technology,
import the material if you needto start to verify and validate
what it means to be in yourspecific sector and spur it on,
which is exactly the advice wegive.
Marcus (34:07):
Yeah, and it's an interesting thought as well to
just consider how constructionworks, and I find that a lot of
different industries are verynervous to be opportunistic in
terms of how the materialinteracts with the world.
I mean how steel is developing.
I mean, if you think about theprocess of development of
(34:30):
detailing and steel, or how thematerial itself has developed, I
mean it's not developing.
It's a completely saturatedmarket 10,000 people making
steel components and where isthat product really going to go
over the next few years and howis it going to be perceived in
terms of its footprint on theearth and how effectively it
works?
So what's really cool with themass timber space as well is
(34:54):
that people tend to find reallygood examples of systems that
work.
I mean, built by nature isreleasing these really cool
resources around, how theyapproach multifamily housing,
which ultimately just makes 100%sense, and that is going to
help spur on how this materialworks.
(35:15):
So I think there's a lot ofdevelopment still inside of the
mass timber space.
Some questions that we'reasking ourselves is is CLT even
the right product?
And I think if you're not inthe space right now, in the 2023
construction environment, ifyou're not asking yourself the
question is my material correctand working?
Is this the most efficient wayto do it?
Is this the right way toaddress the problem?
(35:37):
Then I think you're going tohave a tough time, sort of
evolving into the fourthindustrial revolution which is
on our doorstep.
Paul (35:46):
Yeah, and it's not just the material, right.
We're talking about a materialthat's renewable.
We can regrow the material thatwe use.
There's a benefit to regrowingas well to the environment from
a carbon sink perspective.
But on top of that, there'sactually this process, right,
and this process is driven by achange and challenge to our
thinking and construction, whichis what you're talking about,
(36:08):
and it's how do we bring thesepeople and teams together to
think about problems in adifferent way, as a collective,
as a collaborative, to resolvethem and solve them, and it's
this process that wraps around.
There's a digital element tothat as well.
We don't have true digitalfabrication where an architect
one day deraille, drawssomething and rather impresses a
(36:30):
button that spins out in yourcuckoo plant.
It's not going to happen yet.
The intelligence between thosetwo points is so vastly complex
and different, based on thespecifics of your plant and the
material type.
But that's the ideal, right?
The ideal is to try and get tothis level of having this
synergistic thinking betweendesign, conceptualization and
(36:54):
supply chain.
Marcus (36:54):
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, I mean you're seeing thatevolution happen in the trade,
every single trade inside of thebuilding profession.
I mean the scope of works forarchitects has changed, the
engineers scope has changed.
The quantity surveyor or thecost controllers I mean their
scope has changed.
It's becoming a way moredigital environment before
seeing that the efficiency worksreally well with a
(37:15):
well-coordinated BIM model andpeople being able to actually
address problems inside of adigital space, and then how that
translates to a building siteis actually it's very impressive
.
But to write there are massivesteps that still need to be made
and that evolution is very muchin process.
So yeah, it's again.
How do you sort of blend in orkind of start molding your
(37:39):
facility and your offering tothe larger environment?
I mean, master of thetechnologies, we don't actually
do any installation.
I mean it's a very difficultworld to contract, it's a very
stressful thing to do that sidework.
So we kind of focus on peopledoing that for us.
But that opens up a massiveamount of time and capability
(38:01):
for us to address the designquestion, which is what we're
seeing.
The evolution is it's like theproducer is becoming a part
designer, part engineer, a partcost controller to ensure that
things are done efficiently, andthat's been very interesting to
see happen.
And you don't really see thatwith, like, you don't have a
concrete contractor sittinginside of a project development
(38:23):
meeting.
That's kind of like a lastminute thought.
Let's get them to just kind ofpour some concrete right at the
end.
But we're starting to say, guys, maybe it's more efficient to
start addressing this like this,and your floor steps can look
like this and beams can go likethat, and that's way more
efficient.
Turn your grid like this, andthat's yielding really positive
steps for us in terms of theproduct being accepted.
Paul (38:45):
Yeah, and I think the key concept to add on to that
analogy about the concrete arenot being part of that team.
But yet the concrete and theconcrete industry get asked to
deliver a superstructure system,right.
They say, please go and deliverthis shell for me so I can
actually go and fill it, infillit.
And so at some point weprobably want to get to the
(39:07):
point where we're trusted todeliver just a superstructure,
right.
And they say, here's what Iwant, this is what I need and
this is my grid spacing.
Go away, go and create thisthing for me.
And to me that would be thegreatest and most humbling
moment, because you now knowthat we've arrived, the same as
concrete and steel as astructural material, that people
(39:30):
can just request thesuperstructure to be assembled
in a location you know.
Yeah.
Marcus (39:36):
Yeah, I think one of the opportunities there would
probably be inside of industrialindustrial work.
I mean it's one thing that wehaven't had much luck with it
yet but we're pushing it quitehard is to start looking at, you
know, warehousing systems.
I mean, why aren't we makingbig warehouses out of timber?
I mean, certainly there's somefire requirements but they're
all addressable.
You know, hybrid constructioninside of that space I think it
(39:58):
could be.
You know, timber again offersitself to be that McConnell said
that she just sort of sentaside.
Put it together, you don'treally have to think much more
about it and it should work outquite cost-comparative,
especially with steel stillgoing through its price
increases the way it is.
So yeah, I think yeah, there'squite a lot of opportunities for
us to get that happening.
(40:20):
You know sort of that.
You know that happened.
Paul (40:21):
What about some of the projects that you've done,
whether they be big or small,showcases or things that have
been delivered?
Tell me about a couple or one,or a significant one that you've
got, that you've been involvedwith.
Marcus (40:33):
I think what's going to be really cool to see going up
now.
I mean we completed it a numberof months ago.
It's been shipped to Zanzibaras a four-story high structure,
full mass timber structure, theconcrete there's three concrete
cores for their stairwells thatkind of represent really the
only sort of concrete workbesides the foundation.
But yeah, it's all the beams,all the posts, all the floor
(40:56):
slabs, wall slabs and the roofstructure which is, I think,
going to be quite a flagshipproject in Africa as it goes up
for the first probably trulymulti-level building, you know
multi-five family housestructure which was produced in
Africa with African material foran African project which I
think is pretty incredible.
(41:17):
And I mean it represented, Ithink, about 250 or 300 cubic
metres of timber, which I thinkfor us was a pretty big project.
And other than that, we'rerunning quite a few really
interesting examples which willhopefully be going up in Cape
Town, sort of to middle ormiddle to end of next year,
(41:37):
where we're really focusing onthe idea of densification inside
of a city which has got quite atight footprint but a huge
requirement for developmenthappening.
And mass timber again offers areally cool problem-solving
capability of saying, well, wecan actually put another three
or four stories on top of yourbuilding without it impacting
your foundation work.
And, again, nice floor slabsystems, concrete or sort of
(42:01):
lightweight concrete, sort ofhybrid timber slabs.
So, yeah, we've got a projectnow which is going to be about
1,000 cubes as a nine-storyaddition to an existing building
in Cape Town, which I think isgoing to be a pretty incredible
project if it comes off at theend of next year.
And then, yeah, there's a lot ofthe works Now that we've kind
(42:23):
of opened the flood gates.
You know, it's everything fromyour sort of multifamily housing
projects, a lot of residentialwork, a lot of densification
projects.
Again, guys putting anotherstory of building on top of
their house.
You know, they take their roofoff and they add another
building on top of that, andpeople have found that to be,
you know, both cost-effective,really really quick to do and
(42:45):
it's very sort of uninvasive.
What we, when you build withmass timber, so you're not
taking ceilings out, you're notsort of ripping people's whole
house off there's three guys onsite and you basically just drop
in the walls and your roof.
So, yeah, there's quite a lotof that.
But, yeah, projects that rangebetween 50, 60 cubes.
You know we've got a number ofthose currently going into Q1.
We're probably going to bequite full up till about June
(43:08):
and then you know we're lookingvery forward to some of these
larger projects kicking off yeah.
Paul (43:12):
Well, that's a great segue into promoting.
You know the business Again.
Just you know.
Give people an overview of whatthe business is called.
How do people get in contactwith you, and you know how do
you work, because one of thethings that people don't
necessarily understand isthey'll bring you up and go hey,
marcus, I'd love to getinvolved with the project, but I
(43:33):
don't know where to start.
So what's your process and howdo people get in touch?
Marcus (43:39):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think the firstthing is obviously go take a
look at our website,mastinthetechnologiescoza.
We've got a design guide.
It's free, you can justdownload it, you know, at your
leisure, you know you can reallyrun through that document.
It gives you everything fromour service offering material
capabilities.
Some thoughts and questions youmight have to ask yourself
(44:01):
about the appropriate businessmaterial in your project.
At MTT we really focus on kindof the front end of the project.
So you can come to us with abasic 3D model, a sketch on a
piece of toilet paper, whatever.
You have a nice dream that youmight have dreamed up the night
before and we'll happily walkyou through how that product
(44:22):
project works.
You know we don't typicallycharge upfront to get a project
off of the ground, probably toour detriment.
Ultimately we kind of build insome of those design and supply
fees into the project itself atvery reasonable rates because in
South Africa we don't reallyearn much.
So ultimately, you know it'sreally anything from a full
(44:43):
design supply question all theway to just doing the basic
supply or manufacturefabrication of the material.
So if an engineer or a projectteam comes to us with a set of
shop drawings.
We'll happily manufacture thatfor them too.
But yeah, mastermur CLT, glue,land products as well, posts and
Beams we handle that quite welland then a lot of the machining
(45:05):
and fabrication that's required.
So if you need to do any ofyour services, your cutouts,
your joinery or connections,that might be a bit difficult.
We do all of that work in ourfacility.
So, yeah, that's more or lesswhat we do.
Paul (45:19):
Brilliant, brilliant work.
Marcus (45:22):
Thanks, thanks a lot, paul.
Paul (45:24):
Yeah, the project in Zanzibar.
I remember putting up a post onit.
Oh, would it be well over 18months two years ago.
Great to see the project comingthrough to completion now,
because it was this sort of youknow, Oracle project of
Mastermur arriving in yourregion.
I'm so pleased to hear thatthat's going to be delivered
(45:44):
very, very soon.
Marcus (45:46):
Yeah, and it's a big step.
I mean, we've got one.
There's another project on theisland there which was delivered
by Benderholtz and quitesuccessful as well, and I think
it's really cool to be kind ofin the same ring as Benderholtz
and starting to give them somegas.
So we'll see how we cop up tothem next door.
(46:07):
But yeah, I think it's going tobe an interesting boxing match
in the next few months.
Paul (46:12):
Yeah, shout out to Helmut as well.
If you're listening to this one, helmut Marcus only means it in
a friendly way, it's okay,competition's good for you,
Competition's great.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast and I'm not
sure if you're following theWorld Cup, but yeah, probably
the second best team in theworld right now.
Don't come in with that now.
Marcus (46:33):
And I don't mean Australia being….
The whole country is glowing atthe moment.
Paul (46:38):
I don't think Australia is the best team, I think it's
India, but you're a very, veryclose second and we're probably
fourth near New Zealand.
So now look, we look forward toseeing the progress for you,
and thanks for coming on thepodcast, and if there's other
projects that come up in thefuture, please do reach out.
Let's jump back on here andhave a chat about projects.
Absolutely, and yeah, good,best of luck with everything and
(47:01):
thanks for coming on, cool.
Marcus (47:03):
Thanks, paul, thanks for your time and I appreciate you
having me.
And, yeah, have a good rest ofyour weekend.
Paul (47:08):
Beautiful, thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the GlobalSensation, the one, the only,
(00:24):
the undisputed heavyweightpodcast in the world the Mass
Timber Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Paul (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon, all good evening.
We're everywhere in the worldtoday.
My name is Paul Kramer, backwith another special guest
episode on the Mass TimberConstruction Podcast.
This time we're coming from alittle known region, a little
known place in the world that'sstarting to ascend quite rapidly
and quite strong, and so I havea wonderful guest today.
We're actually taking time outon our weekend to chat, which is
(01:11):
really great.
So thank you, Marcus.
Please introduce yourself, tellus a little bit about yourself
and what you're up to, andspecifically give everyone a
little bit of a preview as towhich part of the world you're
actually in.
Marcus (01:25):
Cool, all right.
Well, thanks, Paul.
Thanks for having me on thepodcast.
I'm Marcus van der Hoven.
I'm the manager, director andco-founder of Mass Timber
Technologies, which is a smallmass timber fabrication company
based in Johannesburg in SouthAfrica.
So, yeah, it's a pretty unusualspot for the sort of mass
(01:45):
timber conversation to be had.
Usually, you know, theconversation is focused more on
Europe and the US, but we'vebeen running for about two years
now with around 18 or 19 monthsof proper fabrication behind
our belt.
Yeah, I mean, the storybasically started a number of
(02:07):
years ago.
Around five or six years ago Icompleted my Masters in
architecture in Pretoria andwhich a lot of my work really
focused around the developmentof timber construction in
general, you know, to kind ofchange the landscape of how
construction works in SouthAfrica.
After that I sort of doubled ina number of different
(02:29):
industries you know, having beenmentored in the steel
fabrication industry as well asthe furniture industry and
throughout those differentindustries, and kind of just
getting a good understanding ofhow contracting and construction
you know works inside of theSouth African construction
environment, specifically thecommercial environment.
You know I thought it would bepertinent for us to try and put
(02:53):
together a system that I couldstart really enabling mass
timber or just generally timberconstruction to happen in a more
real sense.
You know, typically timberconstruction has been a very
lightweight addition to theconstruction industry.
You know it's kind of anafterthought or only if it's
really a necessity.
(03:13):
It's a brick and mortar andconcrete based system really
that we work in.
It's not really a product ofthe labour market as well that
we experienced.
But I managed to, around threeyears ago, something around that
region, find a pretty willinggroup under a construction tech
platform called Sustainable.
(03:35):
You know they were very kind tosort of co-found the business
with me, generate a small sortof seed funding sort of
allocation to get to the systemworking.
And you know the rest hasreally been history from that
point.
So yeah, I mean interestingthings we've had to kind of work
out is, you know, obviously themarket in South Africa was
(03:59):
pretty much non-existent.
I mean there was this one otherplayer in the country, also
relatively small compared towhat you experienced in the rest
of the globe and really focusedon either niche projects or
architects that are kind offocused on developing
specifically with that item inmind.
And you know the system couldkind of.
You know the companies couldbasically kind of exist on that
(04:22):
but our drivers really to startfinding ways to make it way more
accessible, way more costeffective and really start
tackling some more real buildingproblems.
So you know the hurdlesobviously, the intense amount or
cost really attached to puttingtogether a CLT facility.
That was the massive thing thatwe had to kind of work around.
(04:42):
So we like to call our systemkind of an Africanized CLT
system.
So you know, predominantlyfocusing around introducing a
slightly more labor intensivecomponent, less automation
involved, but aspiring to createa product that kind of fights
on the same level as theEuropean and US based materials.
So yeah, it took a couple ofmonths for us to sort of develop
(05:06):
our own press, which we kind ofretrofitted out of an existing
callous machine that we thenkind of retrofitted and rebuilt
and kind of.
You know it's a bit of a MadMax machine but ultimately it
worked.
You know we developed a roboticCNC system using a KUKA robot
arm on a linear positioner, allthe spindles and sort of cutting
(05:29):
attachments attached to that.
You know all the I guess whatwe would say it's the back end
of our like fabrication system.
So our building information,modeling all the way through the
fabrication, sort of layouts,cnc work, being able to cut out
pretty complex geometries out ofCLT, and then, yeah, we kind of
(05:50):
just built it all togetherunder one roof and it's been
quite a big journey.
Paul (05:58):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I think the most amazing partabout all of that was definitely
the Mad Max invention of yourpress.
I think anyone in Australiathat's listening to this will be
very pleased to hear Mad Maxreference thrown into a massive
construction podcast.
It sounds like an amazingjourney and I've got a question
for you, given that you wereindoctrinated into this
(06:20):
traditional materials area andlook, you know timbers not part
necessarily of the big two, it'sstarting to get that prominence
what was the thing thattransformed you to go?
You know what I respect.
You know concrete and steel,bricks and mortar of having a
place, but I've got thisaffinity to timber and I'm just
really interested in what thegenesis was for you when you
(06:42):
looked at that through your sortof you know apprenticeship.
Marcus (06:47):
Look, I mean it certainly is.
You know, having been sort oftrained in understanding the
full building system as anarchitect, you know you kind of
have an opportunity to reallyinterrogate individual
components of the buildingsystem and where there might be
opportunities for us to reallymake the system better.
You know it's so often that wefind in construction in South
(07:09):
Africa that there's so manypoints of contention.
You know, how long doesconcrete take to dry?
Why is this not working inrelation to other materials?
How do we make the systemactually work in a more healthy,
more sustainable, functionalway?
So the original sort of sort ofdirection for us was to kind of
(07:29):
look at mass timber not reallyas a okay, well, let's go out
and build five story buildingsfrom scratch, mass timber all
the way and try and fight thatup your battle, because that
would never have made any sense.
So it was really more abouttrying to identify certain areas
of building where we couldreally make it work in a more
functional way.
So we're saying, okay, we'regoing to focus really primarily
(07:52):
on floor slab systems that caninterrogate, you know, really
interact with other buildingsystems quite easily.
You know we don't have toreinvent the wheel for the
construction industry, which isa very conservative industry in
South Africa.
You know developers, insurancecompanies, contractors
themselves are very nervous whenit comes to new technology.
So to try and limit our impactby saying, okay, well, we're
(08:15):
only really going to attack 15or 20% of the building question
and that way find a little bitmore acceptance into the market.
It's also really about whattimber can do.
You know, part of my immediatemanifesto why I really care a
lot about it is that from aresource perspective, we often
(08:39):
find that we're mining a lot ofsoil and sand and ground and
iron ore and developing massiveamounts of earth based material,
shipping them out to China toget turned into steel or
Mozambique or Egypt to cement orwhatever, and then we import
all that material back and thatcreates a massive problem when
it comes to a country which, youknow, the currency fluctuates
(09:01):
up and down, left, right andcenter and making building again
really complex.
So timber offers a really coolopportunity where you can
actually contain the entirevalue chain inside of one system
.
You know we're growing thetrees.
You know, 300 or 400 kilometersaway from our facility, it gets
processed and it gets runthrough the whole system and it
doesn't really have to touchanymore.
(09:21):
You know, nobody know not thatmany hands do you need to touch
that material.
So there is an opportunity forus here to really find a way to
scale up, you know, turn into amore rapid building system, find
a way to actually create a bitof system to build way more
sustainable way to build.
And it's sitting on ourdoorstep.
So it was a bit of a no-brainerreally, for me at least, to
(09:41):
find a way to create more valueon the material that we have.
Paul (09:45):
Brilliant and just in terms of your plant and in
particularly a Mad Max press,when did you, when did you get
the sort of the capital to raisefor the investment in the
equipment and did you just have,like some callouso equipment
lying around one day and yousaid I'll take that.
Thanks very much, or did youhave to bring it in?
Marcus (10:07):
I guess that's kind of you know, that's kind of the
spark that you need to kind ofbuild a system like this, you
know, from scratch is spendingpretty much every day on the
phone with every sawmill in thecountry looking for old machines
, looking at opportunities,really find a way to to like
make it work, you know.
(10:27):
So the story really started.
I mean, I was still runninganother business before this and
I was actually looking for afinger-jointing plant for that
business and the guy who wassupplying the machinery to me
let me know, because we werehaving a discussion about, you
know, my dreams of buildingmaster systems in the country
and he said, oh man, you know,there's this old hot press, that
(10:48):
kind of so built a number ofyears ago and whatever, and
sitting outside the sawmill inCusadunatol and they kind of
want to just scrap it or throwit away, whatever, and they'll
take you know X amount of moneyfor it, which was really it was
an absolute steal to get it.
And we then basically said,okay, well, cool, we've got
enough capital in our ownpockets to maybe just, you know,
get this thing rolling.
And that was really the sort ofinception of really building a
(11:11):
foundation for us to then golook for some more serious
funding.
So our partners at thesustainable group I mean they
were looking for systems for oneof their own sort of prefab
building systems that they were,they were putting together they
were struggling to find aconsistent source of CLT and I
said, well, look, I'm on thisjourney and they, they were
quite happy to kind of throw alittle bit of cash at us to just
(11:32):
kind of get the ball rolling.
That then started to snowballand as, as sort of investment
processes worked, we found morepeople interested.
We managed to get a furthersort of investment through some
you know, external parties,which really allowed us to get
enough capital together toreally build this press, get all
of our machining and materialsort of processing sorted out
(11:56):
and get what we're callingreally our feasibility plant in
place, you know.
So right now we're it's notreally mega quantities that
we're putting out at this pointI mean we're running probably
between you know, 180 and 300cubes of material per month and
that really created a reallystrong foundation for us to then
go to really more forestrybased investment companies and
(12:18):
say, look, you know, we'veproved it, we built the market.
This was coming down thepipeline.
We've managed to get these fewjobs.
You know we got interest in EastAfrica, all the way up to the
Middle East and even intoAustralia to start supplying
this material, and they werethought, okay, cool, well, if
you guys can 10x this output or5x this output I think it is to,
you know, 1000 cubes a monthand, you know, trying to aim for
(12:39):
around a 10,000 cubic meterfacility per annum then we can
really start chatting.
So we then developed the systemto say, well, cool, we'll
integrate these two things,we'll build another press here
and we'll get another sort ofmaterial move in line in place.
Paul (12:53):
And and that managed to you, that managed to get us
where we are right now, lookingto kind of 5x within the next
year, our capability, yeah Wellit sounds exactly like our
journey in New Zealand with theX-Lamb plant in New Zealand,
with you know highly manuallabour intensive plant, a Wyman
bridge, a vacuum press.
(13:16):
You know an old finger joiningsystem, with you know people
putting and milling boards thatare finger jointed through a
manual planer.
You know using a hitman tosonically grade and read the
moisture for each of the boards.
It sounds exactly like thatjourney.
And then you contrast that withthe monolithic you know, 25
(13:36):
million dollar investment in thebig automated plant we did in
Australia and you know the restis history.
But everything you've spokenabout is I think it's the
entrepreneurial spirit in tryingto get a mass timber plant up
and running.
Marcus (13:50):
Right, yeah, yeah yeah, and it's a complete chicken in X
situation.
You know, I mean initially wekind of put the framework
together to go, you know, importa plant out of Finland or or
we're out of Italy or something,and the numbers are just
astronomical.
And for us to go and put asystem like that and even if we
could raise the funds I mean,you know it's fundraising is
(14:10):
fairly simple really when youput it together, but the risk,
the risk associated to putting aplant that puts out that much
volume the market isn't thereyet we're not really, you know,
really to actually execute whatwe need to it just doesn't
really make sense.
So our model works slightlydifferently from that we're
saying, you know, yeah, like wedon't really like the concept of
decentralization.
You know it's difficult tomanage multiple sites, but
(14:32):
ultimately it's about being ableto address the question, you
know, of our geographicalcomposition as an African how
far our cities are away fromeach other, how does transport
work, where are the trees andhow do you build the system.
Is a mega plant the rightanswer?
And we don't think so.
We think it comes down tohaving sort of more micro plants
that can, that can access andservice so slightly more direct
(14:55):
markets, where they where theyactually are.
Paul (14:57):
Yeah, and that's kind of the route that we're exploring.
They go with the plantations,right.
They go with your materialsource and where the populace is
, and I think yeah, you've hiton a chord there that
centralizing and bringingeverything to Mecca and then
producing these amazing panelsto build the cities might not be
the best way to go.
(15:18):
So it's an interesting concept.
And what material are you using, and are you using a
homogeneous layup in yourlamella all the way through your
panels, or are you using aheterogeneous layup like we did?
Marcus (15:32):
so, yeah, we, we play around with a couple of
different options.
I mean, look, initially andpredominantly we use our SA pine
.
You know it's a blend ofmultiple different species, as
it happens all over the world.
But from a cost perspective wesee that pretty much 95% of our
work is conducted in that pinematerial.
(15:54):
We also have, much like youguys, in in Australia, new
Zealand, a huge resource ofeucalyptus which I think if for
those guys listening, I thinkthat's going to be the next sort
of massive milestone in in masstimbers, hardwood, hardwood clt
, and how we can actuallydevelop that system.
So we're playing around withsome of the, the sort of
(16:16):
different layup, layup methods.
You know, eucalyptus on theexternal layers, the primary
sort of strength direction, andfilling up the rest of the panel
with with your sort of likeslightly less dense pine.
And yeah, we've got some reallystrong ties with a number of
universities in the country whoare doing sort of continuous
testing for us now and within afew months I expect to to
hopefully release another designguide which is really focused
(16:38):
on on sort of the hardwood cltas well.
But yeah, the the pine is is iswhat we use in, you know, as a
majority of our work is a bigsort of like strange sort of
feeling around pine in SouthAfrica as people sort of feeling
is that it's not that greatquality.
But our feeling after doingsome really sort of really
(16:59):
intensive testing is that that'snot really the you know the
case and we're managing to.
I mean, maybe not quite asdense and strong as a spruce
sort of out of Europe, but yeah,it's definitely up there with
those materials.
You know, our best of itcompetes quite strongly with
what we're seeing coming out ofthe derisible.
Paul (17:18):
Yeah, well, we had the same problems.
Pineas radiata not veryaesthetic pleasing, you know
very much goes golden brownpretty quickly once it's exposed
to the UV light and lots ofknots that are very large, which
is very contrasting to Europeanspruce, which is very tight
knots but more of them beautifulblonde material.
(17:39):
And then when you bring theeucalyptus in, you know that
material has this beautifulblondness, but you can go all
the way through to dark brownsand pinks as well.
So, it's just depends on whatyou're actually looking for
aesthetically.
And then, are you expressingthe material?
Are you exposing the materialor are you going to cover it all
(18:00):
up?
And I think it's about form,function, aesthetics.
And we, we tussled with tryingto do an overlay board for the
aesthetic visual bit.
We worked on pressing in adigital lamella on top with a
vacuum press that then had thataesthetic layer embedded in it.
(18:20):
And then you've got thechallenge of well, once you put
that wall in place in a building, it's almost like furniture.
You get a scuff mark from anelectrician, yeah, yeah, and
you've lost.
Yeah, it's a disaster here.
So you've got all thesebalances that need to happen
right.
Marcus (18:36):
Yeah it's, it's a.
It was a big departure as faras somebody trying to get
contracted to that kind ofunderstand the you got to
protect the materials.
It's got to be sort of coveredwhen it gets decided to a
certain degree.
I mean, you know, guys areworried that things get rained
on and we say it's not a problemso long as it dries up.
But but you can't have 16builders running around.
They were scaffolding and youknow you got to make sure that
(18:58):
you've got something on the onthe panel to make sure that it's
that it's coming.
You know, and we've got apretty cool argument going on in
our office right now where youknow my, my sort of feeling and
my direction is that we need tocover the material.
You know, I don't really wantto see the pile.
I want, you know, I'm all forlike like high speed, high
volume, get it out there, buildthis, let's go build big, cover
it, let it be a, clad it andjust make sure that everything
(19:20):
runs where it needs to.
And so I'm not too botheredabout what it looks like.
I mean, it's strange that a guywho's so into wood doesn't want
wood.
If I own a, I find it a bitlike it, like it tends to have
suddenly walls and your roof andeverything would.
But that's kind of definitelysee the opportunity and having
that finish.
You know we do work on certainfinishes, like if we do like a
(19:42):
slight tint of white in thematerial and kind of floor
sealants on it and just makesure that it doesn't go that
yellow or orange sort of colortoo quickly, you know, trying to
limit that oxidization,oxidization on site.
So yeah, there's a thousandways to skin that cap.
But you know, for us we'reseeing the use of floor slabs,
you know, guys trying topreserve the ceilings, and then
(20:04):
it's not so difficult to handle,you know, it's just pretty cool
.
Paul (20:09):
And are you using a brand adhesive and do you need a
primer for your?
You'll probably need it foryour eucalyptus, but might not
need it for your pine, and butwould I be right in that?
Marcus (20:22):
No, I mean we're using the sort of typical Henkel PUR
system.
We find like we're not tryingto reinvent the wheel on all
fronts.
So we found that that's a verypopular adhesive that's being
used worldwide.
You know, I don't really haveto go and explain to people why
we're using this adhesive.
It's pretty well proven.
We're in discussion with acouple of local producers simply
(20:45):
because you know polyurethaneis expensive.
It's really, when it comes downto, we need this stock and it's
sitting in Germany, we have tofly it and it becomes a bit
difficult to manage it.
So we've got some localmanufacturers trying to develop
different systems for us, butthat's going to be a long way
off, I think.
Still so, running thepolyurethane is probably going
to be a set for for quite sometime.
Paul (21:07):
And have you spoken to them about HBS versus HBX with
the higher heat resistance, pur,yet, or are you still sitting
with HBS, not at?
Marcus (21:16):
this point, the HBS at this stage is what we're using.
Again, when it comes down tothe fire requirement and sort of
the heat, the heat capabilityof that material, you know the
conversation is ultimately comesdown to the charring rates that
we have and we almost don'teven get to the adhesive.
It's simply down to half thecost of the panel need to be to
(21:38):
just get over the line firstly.
So I mean we've had some prettyinteresting examples of panel
designs, floor slab designswe've done, that can yield a two
hour fire rating inside of asort of a commercial structure.
We have very strict buildingcodes in South Africa, so we
have to make sure that.
You know we've got all of ourthings worked out, lots of
(21:59):
testing for around fires beingdone and you know it's becoming
less of a question inside of ourprojects now, which is quite
cool.
Paul (22:07):
And you've released a design guide.
There's an impressive website.
You've effectively arrived tothe world.
What are the sort of thingsthat you're getting involved
with now?
Are you having your teamsengage with development and
construction and architecturaland industrial engineering teams
to progress projects, or areyou coming in at the back end
(22:28):
offering a substitution as analternative design, or are you
doing a combination of both?
Marcus (22:35):
It's a mad combination of both, so it's quite fun.
I've got a really young team.
I think the sort of average agein our team is probably 30.
So we're a very high energyfocused team.
You know, we've got everythingfrom sort of like your technical
side a lot of engineeringbackground, a lot of
architecture and then certainlyto manage the production system
as well.
So our next year is going toreally be around making a
(22:59):
slightly more consistent outputof material, not a lot of
pipelines developed the way itneeds to.
I'm running on advocacy left,right and center, where it's
just about going to conferenceafter conference after
conference, speaking toarchitects, engaging with
quantity surveyors, engagingwith developers, and that's
really our next step.
The first move for next year isabout saying, hey, we've really
spoiled the architects andengineers now with this design
(23:22):
guide.
It's about getting into theconversation, or into the room
rather, with developers,quantity surveyors, making sure
that people understand thesystem of costing or how the
insurance environment works inthis country and why we
shouldn't worry so much aboutfire.
And it's really about trying toget our foot into slightly
larger developments, making surethat you know we really get
(23:42):
engaged with the projecttimeline right from the start.
I mean, it's a massive time lagperiod really, from the start
of the project conversation allthe way to its conception.
You know, we see, on smallerprojects you take up to six or
seven months for a project toreally materialize.
And on some of the largerprojects, you know, we've got
things that are like five yearsdown the line that we need to
kind of figure out.
But yeah, advocacy is first,you know, driving the sales as
(24:06):
hard as we can to just sort ofget the material more understood
and more into environment.
And yeah, in terms of our sortof technical development work,
you know, I think the designguide offered such a huge, it
was such a good resource reallyfor people to kind of just not
have to phone us and have a sixhour conversation to understand
(24:27):
the material and say, oh, youknow, please, you know, help me
figure this out.
You know, it was a way, moresuccessful way, of saying here
are your values, here are yourspans.
You know, get the idea on paperand then we can help you work
through that system.
So so, providing documentationthat helps do that is is what we
kind of strive for.
It's about converting details,because all we have access to is
(24:48):
what guys in Sweden aredetailing, you know, and it's
completely different context,completely different
environments, and trying toconvert our work and our context
and our building technologiesand requirements into something
that an architect can say well,it's how I dress a window, it's
how I dress waterproofing, it'show I dress a floor snap.
That's really what we need tocarry on working on.
So you know, we'll releasesomething for, like, staircases
(25:08):
and how we might do a staircaseto your GLT.
You know, like Luland, which wealso supply at MTT, you know
there's so little informationlocally about, like how spans
work and how deep your beams go,and engineers panic and then
they make the beams too big andthey become too expensive.
So being able to be able to putinformation together that just
(25:29):
gets just gets the basicinformation on the project
team's sort of desks is whatwe're after for the next few
months.
Paul (25:36):
Oh, look, I think you've got the right attitude and that
is just hit on all fronts.
And look, I did the analysiswhen we first started and it was
six months on average for a 50cubic meter job, and if you were
looking at a thousand cubicmeter job, which is the
equivalent to a 10 storybuilding roughly depending on
how you structure it you'relooking at, you know, 18 months
(25:58):
for inception, up to three yearsfor delivery, and so that was
sort of the time span.
So when you're looking at yourpipelines and you're going,
what's that opportunity andwhat's that opportunity, you'll
be able to see that you need,you know, 10 fold the 50 cubic
meter jobs to make up for one ofthe medium jobs you've got.
Coming through your pipeline,the big one falls over.
(26:19):
You could have tried and fillthat pipeline somewhere, right.
Marcus (26:23):
Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, from a businessperspective.
I mean, I think it's somethingthat people don't really
understand about CLT is thatit's not a commodity.
You can't trade CLT like as abunch of slabs and send it out
of okay, cool, we can make 10slabs a month and sell them to
the hardware store.
It doesn't really work likethat.
It's a very bespoke productthat focuses on addressing a
(26:44):
very specific building problemand we're addressing that by
integrating a little bit ofGLULAM manufacturer, which can
in certain instances be aslightly more commoditized
product that tends to sort ofjust level up the cash flow a
little bit and it's a bit moreconsistent.
There's a lot of opportunitiesin GLULAM that just kind of help
us develop it, but it alsoopens up a door for us to start
(27:06):
working on systems that we canget out, that work together, you
know, and and just find a wayto get more timber into the
building industry.
Paul (27:14):
Yeah, Well, when you have longer span requirements, you
can use your GLT to supportsystems right and I think this
is one of the things that is thenext evolution for our mass
timber construction globalmarket.
I think probably store Enzo isprobably the first one to virtue
signal where we're going.
But it's actually aboutsolutions.
(27:35):
You know, it's the lift coresolution, it's the stair
solution, it's the floorsolution, it's the adaptive
reuse solution, it's the wallpanel hybrid solution, it's the
you know whatever comes nextprefabricated solution.
And I think when we think 2D,flat pack, panelized mass timber
, we don't often think 3D,volumetric.
(27:57):
But I actually think it's goingto be these hybrids of kits, of
parts, panels, you know, these2D slash, 3d assemblies and then
volumetrics, and so I think ourdesign guides will change over
time to offer a catalogue ofthings that people can tap into.
But we're still infantile.
I think we're still trying towork out how do we sell the
(28:19):
panel and the concept of thispanel fitting with insider
building project.
Once it gets that, I thinkwe're going to get this next
genesis, exactly Because that'swhere the cost argument comes in
.
Marcus (28:31):
On a project team, I mean, what are we comparing CLT
to?
And it's oftentimes concretethat's poured on site to
institute, and that's reallywhere we're what we're fighting
against, you know.
So, until we find a way todeliver a system that's like
okay, well, we're not evenspeaking about floor slabs and
concrete and comparing the two.
We're talking about deliveringa system that does X, Y and Z,
(28:52):
you know like, this is wherewe're thinking, this is where
we're pushing it.
That's that's really the.
That's the good, that's a goodfight that we need to be
fighting.
I agree, yeah.
Paul (28:59):
And if you can give me a bit of a taster right, because
at the moment I'm talking topeople in other countries around
the world that are saying, look, there's a huge desirability
between a fundamental core ofarchitects, engineers and
constructors to do mass timber,but we're hitting some barriers
and the big barrier is how do weget it in to validate it as
(29:20):
being something that'sevidentiary and supported?
So, you know, the concepts thatwe've come up with are like
doing demos in, like the citysquare, through a place that
might be related to, you know,the local council or the
government.
What was the Genesis journeyfor you and for the others in
Africa at large?
(29:40):
What was the Genesis for you?
To get it across the line,because that's really the
hardest part, right, to overcomethe inertia.
Marcus (29:50):
Yeah, I think a really big step that was made.
And I mean I've got to do aquick shout out to Jamie Smiley.
He runs Xlam in Cape Town andhe was one of the sort of big
pioneers in getting ourconstruction code, the CLT
performance rated,cross-laminated to the code over
the line with the university ofStalingbosch and then their
(30:11):
structural lab there.
That was a big step in terms ofus again just being able to
move the material into aconstruction environment without
having to really fight too manyor put out too many fires in
terms of the industry pushingback on it.
So without that I think it'sgoing to be nearly impossible
(30:31):
for a system to really growinside of a context.
The other thing is, obviously,is the regulations of being able
to compare your material to therest of the world.
I mean, where is theopportunity really?
Is it?
Can master really be amassively exportable product?
And I do think so.
I mean, one of our largerprojects has been sent off to
(30:51):
Zanzibar.
We've got a reallywell-positioned, at least in the
TTC service, africa projectsbeing developed in Africa and
finding ways to design for yourmaterial to really just become
an efficient product.
The novelty I think is prettymuch over this hype of CLT going
(31:12):
to LinkedIn and everybody'stalking oh, clt is the future.
I think that novelty isprobably going to fade away
after a while and we need towork really hard in the next few
years to make sure that we'reactually positioned well to make
sure this works.
So Hemp Creek comes and startsgetting all the praise and
ultimately they're coming afterus.
(31:34):
But it's about using this hyperight now to make sure that
we're developing as fast as wecan and it's about positioning
ourselves to work pretty well.
So the code worked really well.
It's about finding the rightmaterial.
I know how much work it takesand I'm sure a lot of other
producers will attest to justbeing able to manage your
volumes, ensuring that thequality of your material is
(31:54):
where it needs to be, and howyou address your supply chain.
I mean, the forestry industry isgoing through so many
fluctuations, ups and downs.
The last three years in thetimber industry has just been
absolutely mad in terms oftrying to work out what your
timber actually costs.
So being able to partner upwith guys and build an
environment that really createssurety that the material is
(32:19):
going to do what it needs to do,and it's about producers taking
care of each other, pushingeach other to say if one of
these buildings fails, what'sthat going to do to the whole
industry?
And how do we keep each otheraccountable to make sure that
this thing is really where itneeds to be?
And my feeling comes back thento saying that standardization
and having those standards andbuilding codes in place and us
(32:41):
being able to conform to them tothe highest level is where this
material really starts to makethe difference.
Paul (32:47):
Yeah, I think you're right .
The evidence is there that wherethere's been a code development
, code in action, there is thisdynamic that says where there
isn't a presence of the code,change, the industry is quite
fallible and can be very fragile.
But where you develop this code,you create this strength of
(33:09):
core and the core then deliverson the value proposition because
people have this confidencethat somebody else has looked at
this, verified it and gone.
This is a plausible system.
And now we've got this thingcalled critical mass globally
right that when we look back 12years ago, you could count on
one hand, two hands maybe howmany plants were producing
(33:30):
commercial mass timber for theglobal market, absolutely.
And now that's completelytransformed.
And so we've seen this genesisand this change happen and I
think that's what's reallyspurring on and supporting
others.
So people that are looking todo this, I agree with your story
.
Your story is very similar toeveryone else's story that where
the markets are held is getinvolved with the regulatory
(33:52):
bodies through the university,start to test the technology,
import the material if you needto start to verify and validate
what it means to be in yourspecific sector and spur it on,
which is exactly the advice wegive.
Marcus (34:07):
Yeah, and it's an interesting thought as well to
just consider how constructionworks, and I find that a lot of
different industries are verynervous to be opportunistic in
terms of how the materialinteracts with the world.
I mean how steel is developing.
I mean, if you think about theprocess of development of
(34:30):
detailing and steel, or how thematerial itself has developed, I
mean it's not developing.
It's a completely saturatedmarket 10,000 people making
steel components and where isthat product really going to go
over the next few years and howis it going to be perceived in
terms of its footprint on theearth and how effectively it
works?
So what's really cool with themass timber space as well is
(34:54):
that people tend to find reallygood examples of systems that
work.
I mean, built by nature isreleasing these really cool
resources around, how theyapproach multifamily housing,
which ultimately just makes 100%sense, and that is going to
help spur on how this materialworks.
(35:15):
So I think there's a lot ofdevelopment still inside of the
mass timber space.
Some questions that we'reasking ourselves is is CLT even
the right product?
And I think if you're not inthe space right now, in the 2023
construction environment, ifyou're not asking yourself the
question is my material correctand working?
Is this the most efficient wayto do it?
Is this the right way toaddress the problem?
(35:37):
Then I think you're going tohave a tough time, sort of
evolving into the fourthindustrial revolution which is
on our doorstep.
Paul (35:46):
Yeah, and it's not just the material, right.
We're talking about a materialthat's renewable.
We can regrow the material thatwe use.
There's a benefit to regrowingas well to the environment from
a carbon sink perspective.
But on top of that, there'sactually this process, right,
and this process is driven by achange and challenge to our
thinking and construction, whichis what you're talking about,
(36:08):
and it's how do we bring thesepeople and teams together to
think about problems in adifferent way, as a collective,
as a collaborative, to resolvethem and solve them, and it's
this process that wraps around.
There's a digital element tothat as well.
We don't have true digitalfabrication where an architect
one day deraille, drawssomething and rather impresses a
(36:30):
button that spins out in yourcuckoo plant.
It's not going to happen yet.
The intelligence between thosetwo points is so vastly complex
and different, based on thespecifics of your plant and the
material type.
But that's the ideal, right?
The ideal is to try and get tothis level of having this
synergistic thinking betweendesign, conceptualization and
(36:54):
supply chain.
Marcus (36:54):
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, I mean you're seeing thatevolution happen in the trade,
every single trade inside of thebuilding profession.
I mean the scope of works forarchitects has changed, the
engineers scope has changed.
The quantity surveyor or thecost controllers I mean their
scope has changed.
It's becoming a way moredigital environment before
seeing that the efficiency worksreally well with a
(37:15):
well-coordinated BIM model andpeople being able to actually
address problems inside of adigital space, and then how that
translates to a building siteis actually it's very impressive
.
But to write there are massivesteps that still need to be made
and that evolution is very muchin process.
So yeah, it's again.
How do you sort of blend in orkind of start molding your
(37:39):
facility and your offering tothe larger environment?
I mean, master of thetechnologies, we don't actually
do any installation.
I mean it's a very difficultworld to contract, it's a very
stressful thing to do that sidework.
So we kind of focus on peopledoing that for us.
But that opens up a massiveamount of time and capability
(38:01):
for us to address the designquestion, which is what we're
seeing.
The evolution is it's like theproducer is becoming a part
designer, part engineer, a partcost controller to ensure that
things are done efficiently, andthat's been very interesting to
see happen.
And you don't really see thatwith, like, you don't have a
concrete contractor sittinginside of a project development
(38:23):
meeting.
That's kind of like a lastminute thought.
Let's get them to just kind ofpour some concrete right at the
end.
But we're starting to say, guys, maybe it's more efficient to
start addressing this like this,and your floor steps can look
like this and beams can go likethat, and that's way more
efficient.
Turn your grid like this, andthat's yielding really positive
steps for us in terms of theproduct being accepted.
Paul (38:45):
Yeah, and I think the key concept to add on to that
analogy about the concrete arenot being part of that team.
But yet the concrete and theconcrete industry get asked to
deliver a superstructure system,right.
They say, please go and deliverthis shell for me so I can
actually go and fill it, infillit.
And so at some point weprobably want to get to the
(39:07):
point where we're trusted todeliver just a superstructure,
right.
And they say, here's what Iwant, this is what I need and
this is my grid spacing.
Go away, go and create thisthing for me.
And to me that would be thegreatest and most humbling
moment, because you now knowthat we've arrived, the same as
concrete and steel as astructural material, that people
(39:30):
can just request thesuperstructure to be assembled
in a location you know.
Yeah.
Marcus (39:36):
Yeah, I think one of the opportunities there would
probably be inside of industrialindustrial work.
I mean it's one thing that wehaven't had much luck with it
yet but we're pushing it quitehard is to start looking at, you
know, warehousing systems.
I mean, why aren't we makingbig warehouses out of timber?
I mean, certainly there's somefire requirements but they're
all addressable.
You know, hybrid constructioninside of that space I think it
(39:58):
could be.
You know, timber again offersitself to be that McConnell said
that she just sort of sentaside.
Put it together, you don'treally have to think much more
about it and it should work outquite cost-comparative,
especially with steel stillgoing through its price
increases the way it is.
So yeah, I think yeah, there'squite a lot of opportunities for
us to get that happening.
(40:20):
You know sort of that.
You know that happened.
Paul (40:21):
What about some of the projects that you've done,
whether they be big or small,showcases or things that have
been delivered?
Tell me about a couple or one,or a significant one that you've
got, that you've been involvedwith.
Marcus (40:33):
I think what's going to be really cool to see going up
now.
I mean we completed it a numberof months ago.
It's been shipped to Zanzibaras a four-story high structure,
full mass timber structure, theconcrete there's three concrete
cores for their stairwells thatkind of represent really the
only sort of concrete workbesides the foundation.
But yeah, it's all the beams,all the posts, all the floor
(40:56):
slabs, wall slabs and the roofstructure which is, I think,
going to be quite a flagshipproject in Africa as it goes up
for the first probably trulymulti-level building, you know
multi-five family housestructure which was produced in
Africa with African material foran African project which I
think is pretty incredible.
(41:17):
And I mean it represented, Ithink, about 250 or 300 cubic
metres of timber, which I thinkfor us was a pretty big project.
And other than that, we'rerunning quite a few really
interesting examples which willhopefully be going up in Cape
Town, sort of to middle ormiddle to end of next year,
(41:37):
where we're really focusing onthe idea of densification inside
of a city which has got quite atight footprint but a huge
requirement for developmenthappening.
And mass timber again offers areally cool problem-solving
capability of saying, well, wecan actually put another three
or four stories on top of yourbuilding without it impacting
your foundation work.
And, again, nice floor slabsystems, concrete or sort of
(42:01):
lightweight concrete, sort ofhybrid timber slabs.
So, yeah, we've got a projectnow which is going to be about
1,000 cubes as a nine-storyaddition to an existing building
in Cape Town, which I think isgoing to be a pretty incredible
project if it comes off at theend of next year.
And then, yeah, there's a lot ofthe works Now that we've kind
(42:23):
of opened the flood gates.
You know, it's everything fromyour sort of multifamily housing
projects, a lot of residentialwork, a lot of densification
projects.
Again, guys putting anotherstory of building on top of
their house.
You know, they take their roofoff and they add another
building on top of that, andpeople have found that to be,
you know, both cost-effective,really really quick to do and
(42:45):
it's very sort of uninvasive.
What we, when you build withmass timber, so you're not
taking ceilings out, you're notsort of ripping people's whole
house off there's three guys onsite and you basically just drop
in the walls and your roof.
So, yeah, there's quite a lotof that.
But, yeah, projects that rangebetween 50, 60 cubes.
You know we've got a number ofthose currently going into Q1.
We're probably going to bequite full up till about June
(43:08):
and then you know we're lookingvery forward to some of these
larger projects kicking off yeah.
Paul (43:12):
Well, that's a great segue into promoting.
You know the business Again.
Just you know.
Give people an overview of whatthe business is called.
How do people get in contactwith you, and you know how do
you work, because one of thethings that people don't
necessarily understand isthey'll bring you up and go hey,
marcus, I'd love to getinvolved with the project, but I
(43:33):
don't know where to start.
So what's your process and howdo people get in touch?
Marcus (43:39):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think the firstthing is obviously go take a
look at our website,mastinthetechnologiescoza.
We've got a design guide.
It's free, you can justdownload it, you know, at your
leisure, you know you can reallyrun through that document.
It gives you everything fromour service offering material
capabilities.
Some thoughts and questions youmight have to ask yourself
(44:01):
about the appropriate businessmaterial in your project.
At MTT we really focus on kindof the front end of the project.
So you can come to us with abasic 3D model, a sketch on a
piece of toilet paper, whatever.
You have a nice dream that youmight have dreamed up the night
before and we'll happily walkyou through how that product
(44:22):
project works.
You know we don't typicallycharge upfront to get a project
off of the ground, probably toour detriment.
Ultimately we kind of build insome of those design and supply
fees into the project itself atvery reasonable rates because in
South Africa we don't reallyearn much.
So ultimately, you know it'sreally anything from a full
(44:43):
design supply question all theway to just doing the basic
supply or manufacturefabrication of the material.
So if an engineer or a projectteam comes to us with a set of
shop drawings.
We'll happily manufacture thatfor them too.
But yeah, mastermur CLT, glue,land products as well, posts and
Beams we handle that quite welland then a lot of the machining
(45:05):
and fabrication that's required.
So if you need to do any ofyour services, your cutouts,
your joinery or connections,that might be a bit difficult.
We do all of that work in ourfacility.
So, yeah, that's more or lesswhat we do.
Paul (45:19):
Brilliant, brilliant work.
Marcus (45:22):
Thanks, thanks a lot, paul.
Paul (45:24):
Yeah, the project in Zanzibar.
I remember putting up a post onit.
Oh, would it be well over 18months two years ago.
Great to see the project comingthrough to completion now,
because it was this sort of youknow, Oracle project of
Mastermur arriving in yourregion.
I'm so pleased to hear thatthat's going to be delivered
(45:44):
very, very soon.
Marcus (45:46):
Yeah, and it's a big step.
I mean, we've got one.
There's another project on theisland there which was delivered
by Benderholtz and quitesuccessful as well, and I think
it's really cool to be kind ofin the same ring as Benderholtz
and starting to give them somegas.
So we'll see how we cop up tothem next door.
(46:07):
But yeah, I think it's going tobe an interesting boxing match
in the next few months.
Paul (46:12):
Yeah, shout out to Helmut as well.
If you're listening to this one, helmut Marcus only means it in
a friendly way, it's okay,competition's good for you,
Competition's great.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast and I'm not
sure if you're following theWorld Cup, but yeah, probably
the second best team in theworld right now.
Don't come in with that now.
Marcus (46:33):
And I don't mean Australia being….
The whole country is glowing atthe moment.
Paul (46:38):
I don't think Australia is the best team, I think it's
India, but you're a very, veryclose second and we're probably
fourth near New Zealand.
So now look, we look forward toseeing the progress for you,
and thanks for coming on thepodcast, and if there's other
projects that come up in thefuture, please do reach out.
Let's jump back on here andhave a chat about projects.
Absolutely, and yeah, good,best of luck with everything and
(47:01):
thanks for coming on, cool.
Marcus (47:03):
Thanks, paul, thanks for your time and I appreciate you
having me.
And, yeah, have a good rest ofyour weekend.
Paul (47:08):
Beautiful, thank you.
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