October 29, 2025 • 46 mins
Tired of hearing that mass timber is “promising” but not practical? We dig into what actually moves the needle: turning raw products into clean, repeatable systems that installers love and owners can price with confidence. No fluff—just the playbook that took projects from pause to go, even as tariffs and supply shocks rattled budgets.
We start with the shift from panels to platforms: shaft wall systems that swap in for CMU without fuss, union training and mock‑ups that build real‑world confidence, and a timber bay approach designed for warehouses and data centres. Then we unpack a standout case study—the Amazon final‑mile warehouse in Indiana—where early alignment around a mass‑timber‑forward hybrid, local forests, and a tight grid delivered speed, beauty, and over 40 sustainability strategies. When teams coordinate around the module, cost and schedule stop fighting each other.
Data centre interiors get a rethink too. A patent‑pending CLT base for electrical equipment skids replaces thick steel plates, shortens lead times, and can generate significant sustainability wins. Pair that with the rise of modular, edge data centres and you’ve got a new standard for fit‑out speed and embodied carbon reduction. Along the way, we make the case for hybrid construction as the default future: concrete where it belongs, steel where it performs, and timber where it excels. Use a practical “purity” lens and real invoice volumes to find the tipping points for cost and carbon, region by region.
This conversation champions regional species and honest specs—span tables over wish lists, performance criteria over perfection. Knots are not defects; they’re the story of the forest. And that story extends to circularity: repeatable grids that enable disassembly, second‑life panels, and cross‑market reuse, all supported by a healthy whole‑tree economy that includes sawmills, bioenergy, and paper. Subscribe for more grounded, system‑level insights, share this with a colleague who needs a faster path to low‑carbon builds, and leave a review to tell us which system you want to try next.
You can access more information here:-
Amazon DII5 Warehouse - Shout out to ZGF Architects and KPFF Engineers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, we're the moment you
allow me, hey, Paul Kramer, yourhost.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening
wherever you are in the worldtoday.
This is Paul Kramer with theMass Timber Construction
Podcast.
Back with another special guest.
I normally say special guest,this is probably an extra spicy,
crispy special guest, uh,because she's been on the show
before and we had a real laughlast time and we had a great
(01:11):
conversation.
And as usual, nothing ever goesto plan on my podcast.
So we're planning to do nothingagain.
Um but Michaela, welcome back tothe podcast again.
It's been all 14, 16 months,something like that.
A lot's changed.
Uh, tell us how things are goingfor you and what's the biggest
thing in the world for you todaybeing produced out of your
(01:33):
plant, which is made up ofmultiple parts, which we
affectionately callFrankenstein.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Yeah.
Frankenstein, happy Halloween,happy spooky season.
I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Happy Halloween to you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yeah, no, things are going really well.
Um, I'm glad to be back.
I I'm really honored that youkind of talk about us as like
the Seinfeld of Mass Timbertalking, you know, the show
about nothing.
I'll take it.
Um, but no, we'll talk a littlebit about Mass Timber at least,
right?
I think.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's correct.
But we we don't plan anything.
Like Jerry never plannedanything, it just the show
organically grew, right?
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
So it's like it's my favorite kind of show, I have to
tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Uh no, things are going great.
So, you know, we've had a Ithink that the the most of the
North American industry wouldsay we've had an interesting
year.
Um, but you know, there's alwayspositives in and silver linings
to things.
So this last year has been alittle tough from just kind of
(02:35):
the certainty of of the marketand fluctuations in pricing with
tariffs and things like that.
Uh, with Sterling, you know, weare 100% US grown, manufactured,
um, and and sourced company.
So there are some of the aspectsthat our our dear friends in
(02:56):
this industry are dealing withthat we aren't when it comes to
the lumber side of things, butthat does not mean that other
things aren't affected.
So, like we're still seeingmaybe it's the mechanical system
that doubled in price, or maybeit's this other thing.
So, one of the things I justwant to remind everybody, you
know, as much as I truly believein and want to support as much
(03:17):
domestic industry as possible,we also have to be a bit uh
realistic about a global economythat we live in.
SPEAKER_03 (03:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:23):
And so that's been for all of my dear friends in
this industry, um, specificallyconstruction, we're all just
working together and saying,okay, how can we keep these
buildings rolling?
And I would say what weexperienced at the beginning of
the year was just kind of apause.
Like everybody's like, okay,let's wait and see.
(03:44):
Let's kind of see what'shappening.
Um, and then, you know, thatthaw started over the last few
months.
And I think a lot of that ismoney doesn't like to sit,
especially people that have alot of money, they like their
money moving, making more money.
So eventually markets open backup, right?
So we're seeing constructiongetting back into the swing and
(04:05):
people making decisions againand lots of really cool,
exciting projects.
We have a few universityprojects, a few multifamily
projects.
But I think what what this yearhas really allowed us to reflect
on is our commitment to USsupply chains, um, and our
(04:26):
commitment to US forests and andwhat that means for a
construction project as a whole,you know, what that means for a
story of a whole constructionproject that might be coming
from everywhere, but what youcan tell with that story and
with that tree and with thatproduct.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Um, and then, you know, we I think last time we
talked about I've been reallyinterested in more productized
approach to mass timber.
And we've done a lot of thatwork over the last year of
launching very easy entryproduct lines.
I've been calling some of them,like our shaft wall system, like
the gateway drug to mass timber,because we have all these great
(05:05):
GCs who have no interest in masstimber.
They don't care, you know,they're doing the stuff the way
they've always done it.
But but for shaft walls with thespeed of construction, the
ability to build it at any timeof year, not having to stop
every six feet for inspections,um, they've just really loved it
as a product.
(05:25):
So that's what we really, youknow, that was the ethos at the
beginning.
How can we get this into thewider construction market?
And now these kind of easy entryLego like products are really
starting to help us, you know,get get there and and and just
pump out material and replacewhat we can and and support the
teams we can.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I never pictured you as a pusher.
Um, I really Oh yeah.
Yeah, I never thinking gatewaydrugs and and hooking people
onto something.
Um, but you know what?
That fanaticism around masstimber is probably the thing
people need.
It's infectious, um, it doescreate difference, and that
(06:04):
difference can support peoplerather than be, you know, uh
destructive in society.
We think it's constructive, andand I guess that's where the
beauty of it lays.
But that's great to hear.
I think that globally we've seena shift in construction markets.
Similarly, down here in theSouthern Hemisphere, interest
rates certainly uh they tricklethrough from triggering the
(06:26):
housing prices, the capacity toborrow, and then that slows down
the commercial activities.
And I think we find that thatreally does play out sort of 16,
18 months after you see an andand a reaction by the reserve
bank.
And so I think we're seeingsimilar trends in Europe as
(06:49):
well, here in Australia, and andand what you've just told me
maps on as well for the US.
So it's it's good to see how themarkets are starting to come
back now.
Um, people are going, we can'tjust lock everything up, we've
got to open up, and and theprojects will come forthwith,
I'm sure.
So yeah.
Speaking of projects andthinking about what you've done
(07:09):
since we last jumped on thepodcast.
Um, by the way, I just gottasay, since you went on Nick and
Brady's podcast and thispodcast, your fame has grown
exponentially, and you are nowlike getting invited across all
these, all these events acrossthe US.
And we're seeing you pop up onLinkedIn all the time, and it's
(07:29):
really fantastic to see you as arising star.
So kudos.
SPEAKER_02 (07:33):
Oh, that's so kind.
I'm like really I'm like, ohthat's very nice.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
I think if Nick and Brady and I got together in a
room, we'd probably say, oh no,we we we we made her.
Yeah, we made her.
We're like the Hollywood.
SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
You guys can have it.
You can have it, I'm okay withthat.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Uh, I think that they would be um applauding as
well from the sidelines.
So yeah, we're big super fans uhcollectively in industry.
And I noticed there was two bigmegatrends.
You've been talking aboutprojects specifically and
products and systems.
Let's go with products andsystems first.
You mentioned the shaft wallsystem.
(08:08):
I have long thought, and so havemany others that I've been
speaking to, that systemizationis the way forward.
It's not just about panels andit's not just about bits of
Gluam and little bits of um CLTtogether.
It's it's it's systems.
You've seems to have shiftedyour product focus from products
(08:28):
to systems.
How did the genesis of thathappen?
Was that something internal ordid you have external
inspiration?
What was the give us some ideasabout how that's eventuated?
SPEAKER_02 (08:40):
Yeah, so I mean, I think the industry trends that
way anyway.
And I think that new productsstart in those like high-end
projects and then turnthemselves into systems
eventually for adoption.
So, like, I'm not gonna say it'sall internal.
Like, I do think there'sdefinitely this external thing
that drives that and drivesscale, right?
And so we're following theformat for scale.
(09:03):
Internally, though, you know, Iam so blessed and lucky to have
such a phenomenal design andengineering team.
Um, and we we really reacted towhat we learned on projects.
So we had a couple multifamilyprojects.
We had our uh Fort Bragg ummilitary hotel project.
(09:27):
And just in kind of like talkingwith our installers, this like
excitement about the shaft wallsystem started to really come
out.
Like, oh man, it was so easy howquick that thing went up.
It was so, you know, it wasreally like almost a one-for-one
replacement.
Um so that was like what wefirst reacted to.
(09:47):
We're like, hey, you know, andwe know that there, and there
are other companies that haveshaft wall systems.
Um, the nice thing with usthough, is we're kind of we're
taking a different approach,which is something we tend to
do, right?
But more of that kind ofplatform um level at a time
approach, um, and almost moreLego piece-like.
(10:09):
And I think that's reallyaccessible as a change from CMU.
You know, you can go into thebig, tall one-piece shuffle, but
there's extra bracing.
There's a lot of things that aresome behavioral shifts.
Whereas when you're just talkingto a framer who does, you know,
four over ones all day, it'svery easy to be like, hey, you
(10:30):
know, this is like four pieces.
You put it up as you go.
There's not a lot of extra work.
And that's why, that's why we'veseen such adoption for it,
especially for like the lodgingindustry, multifamily, these
ones that just like it's astaple.
It also can go with, you know,pretty much any elevator system.
So we know that there's someissues with kind of sourcing of
(10:53):
that stuff.
So when you can replace stuffout really quickly because it's
so easy to fasten into a masstimber system, there's just all
these added benefits.
Um, and and like again, we justwant to keep playing with that
Lego P system-based uh approach.
That's really how our CL Towershaft wall system came to be.
It came from projects listeningto our installers.
(11:15):
I mean, number one, I'm alwayslistening to installers because
those are the people I want tokeep happy.
Um, and that that that's been abig push.
And so as that reallymanifested, we kind of moved on
to okay, we know that there'straining mock-ups.
You know, we always see that inour specs, like, hey, I want a
mock-up.
How can we make a system forthat, for this accessibility of
(11:38):
training and education?
Um, so we both put one of thosetogether and been really helping
out with carpenters unions, ironworkers, GCs that are looking to
self-perform and kind of justfeel the material and learn.
Um, but I think the one that I'mmost excited about right now is
our timber bay system.
(11:59):
So that is really focused on umlike a pre-engineered solution
for big boxes, warehouses, datacenters.
And we're just seeing so muchexcitement around that space.
And it aligned really well withum a large warehouse that Amazon
just put their PR out about.
(12:20):
And it's really cool to see acompany so proud of all the
sustainability choices that theymade, but who collaborated and
coordinated with us very earlyto do it the right way.
I mean, this thing flew up.
Things went so well.
It wasn't like you know, youknow how those with a lot of
(12:41):
projects like that that are kindof the first ones, yeah, a lot
of hiccups.
Yeah, we there was justsomething about this team and
the way that they looked at itso early.
Um, and they really built thatsystem off of our module.
Yeah.
And by doing all of that, costcame together, speed came
together.
Um, and and it was just astellar team all around.
(13:03):
And I give Amazon a lot ofcredit for taking the initiative
to try something that matters totheir sustainability and and
speed.
You know, obviously they carry alot about speed.
So but it was really cool to seejust, you know, we were one
small part of the sustainabilityinitiatives of those warehouse
(13:26):
of that warehouse and what whatthey're looking at going
forward.
So um super fun to see it.
We hope to see a lot more, andwe're happy to support, you
know, this this kind of hybridmodel.
We know it's not all gonna be100% timber, but how can we mix
it together and just take thesesteps, take these steps forward?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yeah, uh, there's a lot in there.
Uh let's go back to the trainingmodule, right?
So we know that uh understandingof how the systems work um
breeds, I guess, um comfort inusing the system.
So it's a very smart way ofgetting as much CLT or systems
(14:10):
GLT, CLT combinations into thehands of people who are going to
ultimately end up using thisproduct and getting them
comfortable with knowing it,right?
So that's a great initiative.
And then to go from that, fromwhat happens on the contractor
side on site and translate thatthrough your engineering
(14:30):
marketing team and then into aproduct system and then sending
it out and then having thatconnect back to a project.
Now that's the gold standard.
That is the gold standard.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
We really want to see that happen more.
You know, that's we're we're atthe beginning stages of all of
that, but that's yeah,absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
But I think credit should go to you and to others
that do that.
Um, I know Storenzo was verymuch similar in their um
ideation of product systems inthe early days, they still do
it, of course, but I'm talking10 years ago.
Um, I actually think theintelligence is in mapping that
process.
It's it's how do you capturethat intelligence from the site,
(15:11):
how do you then bring that intothe engineering realm?
How do you then productize,systemize that, and then how
does that get marketed?
And I think that's the smartsbecause people don't see the
product as being a function ofprocess, and it's it's mapping
that process that's reallyimportant.
So if you haven't done it, doit.
(15:31):
If you're doing it, do more ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Yeah.
No, uh you like hit the nail onthe head because what we're
seeing with so much of the likemore niche, master more
project-based work, is it'salmost like you reinvent the
wheel over and over, right?
Or or we're designingconnections that don't think
(15:54):
about the end, or designing asystem that doesn't think about
the manufacturing.
And we're just, you know, it'slike all these disconnects that
happen.
And this is something I talkabout a lot, specifically on the
supply chain front, of likebeing very disconnected to from
the tree and the lumber, andlike, you know, like we have to
(16:15):
design for that whole system.
And that's very much like how mybrain works.
And so it's really cool on myteam to have these engineers and
architects who are very designedfor manufacture and assembly,
are very construction sitefocused and based because it's
not common.
Yeah, it's really not common.
(16:36):
You know, our director ofdesign, her early career was all
on construction sites, allconstruction management work.
That's so rare to have thatconnection.
It doesn't mean you're anexpert, but it's exactly what
you just said.
You see the process.
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
And that's where we're really trying to meet the
industry.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think the extension on topof that is we're now seeing
designers at the front end thatare outside of companies like
yours, uh thinking about thefuture of that building from a
circularity perspective.
So either slowing its use,adaptive reuse for disassembly
(17:19):
or even removing fixings fromthe system and using natural
joints and connection systemslike XTAL, for example.
Uh and and and that same processthinking is what they need as
well.
And I think for the first time,we're starting to see this
nexus, this connection betweenwhat's happening on site being
(17:42):
thought about up front in thedesign realm, but not just for
the first life of that building,potentially for adaption and
adoption and potentiallydisassembly at the end.
Now that has got a whole lot ofother challenges.
We could do another podcast onthat, but just to give you just
to give you uh and the audiencea bit of a taste art, you know,
(18:05):
they do have remanufacturingplants for Glue Lamb in Europe.
Uh there would be a conceivablefuture, I think, with the volume
of CLT out that you may havere-manufactured plants for CLT.
So we are not there yet, but wecould get there.
Um, but it's great to hear thatyour thinking process as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
And I, one of the things that was always kind of
in my head early on, and why sowe just released a design manual
and it was really focused onengaging architects and
engineers in that process-basedthinking.
Hey, what's the front end of howof what goes into a project and
a product?
(18:45):
You know, what size is thatlumber?
Where does it come from?
All that kind of stuff.
To what's the most efficientgrid where you can repeat things
as much as possible?
How can you make this as Lego,like putting, and I just was at
an amazing conference inColorado called Housing
Colorado, and it's all focusedon affordable housing.
(19:06):
And I was on a panel with umsome folks from Cunningham
Group, who's an architect baseduh in the US, and um Ryze
Modular out of um Minnesota.
And what we also what we toldall the architects in the room
was these constraints are notsupposed to limit creativity.
(19:27):
Yeah, they're supposed to makesure that the thing can get
built.
They give you power to ensurethat you value engineered from
the beginning, and they'resupposed to expand your
creativity, they're supposed togive you possibility and kind of
a limitless possibility, butjust with saying, hey, this is
(19:49):
how it can happen over and overand over again and scale.
And one thing I've always had inmy mind, just because we are
such a large site access andindustrial business, is if we
can get large enough andrepeatable enough buildings like
multifamily or hotels on aconsistent grid where let's just
(20:09):
say 80%, 80% of the pro of thepanels stay that same rectangle,
then you come to deconstructiontime, all those panels could go
into site access markets.
SPEAKER_03 (20:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
So we could, you're very like, I mean, you could
have the circularity of goingback into a building, or you
could have the circularity of ofroll rolling through an entirely
another market that's beensupported by this thing.
And I just think there's such acool thing going on there, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
Yeah, I think again, it's the limitation, limitations
in our minds, right?
That limit our thinking.
It's it's about trying to expandthat thinking.
And maybe right now in 2025, wedon't have the answer for what
we'll do with these buildingsthat we have that we're
establishing now at the end oftheir life.
(21:00):
But I think at some pointsomeone will come up with a
solution and go, we're gonnahave all these buildings coming
to a natural progression end.
What are we gonna do with them?
Because we don't want to umreduce the materials back to ash
and create more carbon.
We want to do somethingdifferent with that, right?
So I don't know what the answeris right now, but that thinking,
(21:22):
lateral thinking about accessmaps from a building, that's
exactly the sort of thinking weneed.
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
100%.
And I think what's cool is umI'm keeping my eyes on the
Netherlands because you know, Ithink over the last five to ten
years, they've had thatinitiative of everything being
deconstructed and being thoughtof to be deconstructed.
And when you start in this kindof like mindset in a in a
smaller, smaller region andreally focusing on what they're
(21:49):
doing and what works, it'sreally cool that they're kind of
setting the stage for what wemight be seeing coming down the
road.
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Yeah, they said it from Delft University.
Most of the people are at Delftand they um they think about
these things, and that's I'mactually connected with them too
through the research world, notphysically connected with them,
I'm not associated, but I readtheir work, right?
And so influences the work I doand influences what we talk
(22:18):
about on podcasts, and sothere's a real plausibility
about what can happen in thefuture from a circularity
perspective.
I think that's absolutely thekey point.
Uh, since we last spoke, we hadMicrosoft announce their data
center, and you've alluded to itwith Amazon.
Without giving too much away,tell us a little bit about the
(22:38):
Amazon project, how big it was,et cetera, et cetera.
Whatever you can tell with us uhabout what you can tell us about
AWS.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
So they just released everythingon it um this month.
I think they were really excitedto show off again the
sustainability initiative.
So this was a final milewarehouse.
And um, you know, Amazon isreally, and a lot of most of
these tech companies have beenreally kind of going, all right,
we like mass timber.
(23:08):
Like this is this is somethingthat we can do.
They're gonna be building.
I mean, that's the thing that weall have to be aware of is we're
gonna have these warehouses,we're gonna have these status
centers.
Let's do the least harm and dothe best thing we can do while
we continue to build thisinfrastructure that supports our
lifestyles at this point, right?
Life has changed a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
I think cloud-based, everything.
It's all changing.
SPEAKER_02 (23:33):
I know.
Oh, I it's it's uh it's youknow, there this is the closet
thing of like, where do we buildthese data centers?
And instead of this, not in mybackyard thing, but but it's
it's it says, okay, if if we'reI'm not much of a scroller
myself, but I I see it, I knowit's happening.
If we're scrolling, you know,we're going to need that data.
(23:54):
We're going to need these datacenters.
So how do we do that with theleast amount of harm?
And that's what I love to seefrom these companies that I'm
not gonna get that give them thecomplete out yet, but they're
starting to think about it.
And so with this final milewarehouse, um, it's in Indiana,
and they have 40 differentsustainability strategies on
(24:15):
this.
So to me, it's telling thatthey're saying we're thinking
about this, we're putting effortinto this.
This is a pilot that we want torepeat.
Um, and it's so beautiful.
Like you look at the pictures,and it's it's it's gorgeous.
It feels nice.
(24:37):
That material came from like ahundred some miles.
Our plant is super close to thisspot.
And so it's really cool to likehonor the forest, bring it into
a local community, have it comefrom jobs that were from the
local region.
Yeah, that's what we want tokeep seeing because they can
repeat that everywhere.
They can support the regionsthat they're putting these
(24:58):
buildings into and putting thesethings into everywhere.
And so what what I am seeing nowwith the data center space is
like I would love to see more ofthat circularity mentality,
especially with utilities andwater and the building itself.
And I think it's coming, butit's definitely also something
(25:21):
we all need to be saying.
Hey, we know this is gonnahappen, but let's let's demand
some strategies, right?
And that's probably gonna happenat municipal and and regional
levels, most likely.
Um, but we are definitely umworking on the interior data
center products too.
So we've partnered with acompany called EvoLink Systems.
(25:42):
Um, and they're theytraditionally make these steel
electrical equipment skids forquickly building out the
interiors of data centers.
SPEAKER_03 (25:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
And it's phenomenal how much of this stuff is in
there.
And what we learned, um, we havea patent pending on this project
on this product, but if you canreplace the base steel, which is
usually a very thick steelplate, it needs to be tapped and
dyed specifically for specificequipment.
SPEAKER_03 (26:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
And it's and the timelines are kind of long, and
they're building these thingsreally fast.
If we we we we have a CLT nowbased skid system, yeah.
And I can tell you, most ofthese data centers, they're
looking at it and going, we canget almost more sustainability
credits out of this product thanthe building itself.
Yeah, and so that's again thatthinking outside of the box.
(26:34):
Where are places where thisproduct, and it's kind of a fun
mix between structural and siteaccess, it's like almost like
right in the middle there, butthat product, I think, is just
again showing me they arethinking, they are looking and
they are saying we know we gottado better.
SPEAKER_03 (26:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
And and so it's really cool to see the adoption
around that.
Um, and even like regionalizedum edge data centers, these
modular boxes for data centersthat are more edge-based and
smaller and regionalized.
We have a huge a big partnershipthere too.
So more to come on that.
I'm hoping we can talk a lotabout that next year when we see
(27:14):
each other.
Um but it's all it's it's allbuilt in what we started with.
Yeah, what is the process end toend where you look at it
holistically and say, how do wemake this work across that whole
system?
And then it's that's how you getscale.
And and the mass timer industry,we got like all of us have to
(27:37):
just drive hard in thatdirection so that we're not
niche anymore.
Yeah, and I we're so close,we're like so close, you know?
Yeah, we're almost not that bad.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
I think the extent of the plants and the way that
organizations are moving, it'sin the right direction.
Hopefully, the pipelinecontinues to sustain.
But what I think moreimportantly is how does the
industry morph into what'srequired by industry to meet the
(28:09):
various industry objectives orgoals?
Because not every project has asustainability front, not every
project is looking atreplication.
Um, however, where you can fitin and where you can find those
markets and access thosemarkets, and and that plugs in
as a natural fit and everybodywins, I think that's the
(28:32):
challenge.
And I'm not sure I see too manypeople come to me and say, hey,
listen, we're doing thisinnovative new thing with this
organization.
I think we're all tapped intowhere we need to be.
It's just execution now.
It's understanding that processand then executing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
I think we're gonna see some uh big shifts.
You know, I I think you and I'vebeen in the nasting registry
enough to say, like, oh, we'veseen some big shifts, right?
But like this is kind of aprecipice, they think of like it
not being a niche materialanymore.
We're real, especially withhybrid construction.
(29:10):
I think that's like now thatwe've all accepted that, I mean,
even we look at AmericanInstitute of Steel, like they're
into mass timber now.
The iron workers are into masstimber now.
Like, we're something's bubblingright now that's just gonna
shift this thing over the edge.
And you're not gonna have to sayit's just the sustainability,
it's the speed, and it's theaccessibility, it's that's where
(29:33):
we want to go.
We wanna go to it just beingthis like, yeah, of course,
there's another thing we'redoing, and it's just typical.
I just want it to be liketypical, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Doctors.
I think hybrid is hybrid is theis the way it's all going.
And and I was on a panel inMelbourne just this last week
with uh architects who've beenaround since 2009 in Australia
using CLT.
And the big shift on that panelwas.
What do we consider the future?
(30:02):
And the future is definitelyhybrid.
And so, as a group ofindividuals back in 2022, we
decided to work on a scale towork out what is hybrid and what
is pure mass timber.
And we worked on similar conceptof purity, like you would in
chemistry when you're mixingtogether.
(30:25):
And so we determined that sortof below 50% is called mass
timber, and above 50% isstarting to go into hybrid and
towards full hybrid, right?
So you've got these levels ofpurity.
And that midpoint is probablysomething like uh, you know, uh
concrete basement um sub-sort ofstructure with car parks, etc.,
(30:50):
and plant and equipment to oneor two levels and then concrete
transfer, and then you've gotyour mass timber building on
top.
Okay.
The mass timber building iscould be pure on top, it could
all be mass timber, but it mightbe concrete core with steel
outriggers with CLT floor platesand a facade that chases up the
(31:11):
side with um internal wallsbeing uh cold form steel or or
timber studd and frame, right?
And so what is what is pure masstimber versus hybrid?
And I think if you look at thepercentages of the materials in
the building and you work onthis purity scale, you can
determine where the buildingfits and sits.
(31:34):
And so that's a reallyinnovative concept that we
worked on.
We never released it.
I don't know why we neverreleased it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
I'm like, send it to me.
I had to see this thing.
I love it, the purity scale.
Yes! Was there was there a costelement to looking at this too?
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Uh purely based on volumes of material, based on
invoices.
So, you know, interesting call.
You would have to have materialarrive at site.
And we thought, well, no one'sgonna invoice unless the
material is going to be thatvolume to site.
Because why would a builder payfor something that they're not
gonna use?
So it can't come from designproperties, it has to come from
(32:12):
a post-audit um of the projectto determine what its purity
level is through throughinvoiced volumes, because
volumes on the invoices don'thave a fluctuation based on
currency, and they don't have afluctuation based on um the
amount that someone charges.
(32:33):
But if at every uh cubic meteror square meter or square foot
or cubic foot, um you would haveum uh that listed on the
invoice.
So you would look through, andyou can black out all the
columns for sales data becauseyou don't need that.
You don't want to know thedollar values, you just want to
know the volumes that wereinvoiced.
And so, very much like GreenStar or LEED or any of those
(32:57):
other big programs that use thesame philosophy about transfer
chain of custody, we would thinkthat that would tap into that
chain of custody process aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
Okay, yeah, very interesting.
I I've seen a lot of that kindof like dynamic analysis with
um, you know, as you're likescheming hybrid style buildings
from the sustainability front,right?
Like you can kind of fluctuatehere and there, size, geometry,
and kind of see where it landsfrom the sustainability
(33:28):
perspective.
I'd love to see, and I thinkwe're gonna learn a lot of this
over the next few years as allthese hybrid buildings go up, is
this what is that tipping pointin the purity scale, maybe where
where cost is just like bing,this works, and then where
what's the tipping scale wheresustainability really works and
(33:49):
how do those all tie together?
Because I think if we all lookat that data together, a lot of
us are gonna go, wow, this ispretty obvious.
Yeah, we should have known this,you know.
SPEAKER_01 (34:00):
Absolutely.
The only problem It might justbe the new phase.
Yes, the only problem with LCAis the assumptions for each
project are at the eye of thebeholder, right?
So there's no standardization onthat, which makes it difficult
to do comparisons unless it's inyour own organization and you
have your BIM for mass timberhybrid, and you have your BIM
(34:24):
for conventional and you look atall the factors across your two
buildings in a repeated measuresway, otherwise you just can't
figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
We we can't generalize too much,but you know, I think it'll
it'll be really cool to see thatdata come together in some ways
as we get more precedence outthere because it's not stopping,
you know, like and and thenregionalize it.
What does that look like in thedifferent areas of Europe?
What does that look like in thedifferent areas of North
(34:53):
America?
Like, what does that look likein Australia versus New Zealand?
Like it's gonna look differentbecause we all have different
supply chains.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Absolutely, and different timber supplies, and
that's the main thing.
Exactly.
The species of timber really umdictates what your product will
actually be.
And so it's about do you have tocompensate for um a lower
strength per dimensionalthickness for your panels?
Um, do you have the capacity totreat versus not treat?
(35:21):
What does the treatment add interms of weight, um, durability,
resistance, etc.?
I mean, all of these factors,there's so many of them.
Um, one day someone's gonna do aproject and have a look at them
globally and come and tell uswhat the pattern looks like.
But yeah, it's it's it's it's ananomaly, right?
(35:42):
It's it's specifically.
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
I think about the beauty of wood though.
This is this is the this is thehill I'm dying on right now in a
good way.
But like the beauty of wood isthat unique regionalized thing,
you know, and that that's whatI've been kind of talking a lot
with.
It goes back to us saying, okay,how do we really connect people
across that process and acrossthe supply chain?
(36:05):
You know, there you you mightreally want to work with a local
species that might have a littlebit of a lower design value.
And I always am careful aboutsaying that because it doesn't
mean it's worse wood, it's justdifferent wood and different
trees and different speciescategories, right?
And you just design differently.
(36:25):
So when we talk about thesesystems, the systems also need
to understand the inputs.
So we we we have three differentspecies categories that we work
with for our CLT, all domestic,and they have different design
values.
So those project or thoseproducts and projects are are
designed a little differently.
(36:46):
But that's why you release spantables, and that's why you say,
hey, if you want spruce pine forself from Michigan, look start
with these span tables,understand what your specs say.
I think that's one of thebiggest issues we've seen is
there's like things that are inspecifications that are just not
even possible that don't honorthe beauty of a tree and that
(37:09):
don't honor the differentcategories of species that are
out there, um, and maybe haveunintentional consequences.
And that's when we're that'slike another direction that
again, that beauty.
Like I love the beauty of howtrees are so different and how
wood is so different, and thetone, the feel, the strength,
the density, all of that is sodifferent, even just throughout
(37:31):
a forest of the same species.
And and what we're doing isworking with it, working more
symbiotically with it, andgetting people connected to to
that, because I swear I stillthink there are people that
don't know that wood comes fromtrees.
Like, and my my my thing latelyhas been we we've had some like
(37:52):
specs from architects that arelike, I want no knots, zero
knots, and we're like, treeswith no branches are no fun to
climb.
Like, people are hearing me saythis too much now.
Like, trees are meant to havebranches and they're meant to
have character and they're meantto have beauty.
Like, if that's what you want,you don't want wood.
We gotta make that connection.
(38:13):
We gotta remind people.
SPEAKER_01 (38:15):
And that's the question are they happy with
finger jointing instead of knotsthen?
Are they like it's so funny?
Is that the is that thetrade-off?
SPEAKER_02 (38:22):
I know.
What's the trade-off?
Exactly.
I want a tree that's beengenetically engineered to never
have a branch, you know?
And you're like, well, do wereally want that?
Is that good for the forest?
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
What did that uh trees without branches without
branches without leaves withoutleaves without a tree?
So you won't you're just usingconcrete, really.
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
I know that's exactly what it goes back to.
Yeah, it's been my that's beenmy latest one is like I I love
that you brought it up becauselike, no, let's honor the beauty
of timber that's coming fromAustralia and all the different
species you guys have.
And it's just let's keephonoring that and what a cool
(39:02):
material that we can put ittogether the same way and
understand the difference inthose strength categories, and
and then design for it.
You can design for your localforest or your regional forest
or your domestic forest,whatever that is.
And and we all have thatopportunity.
Every country has thatopportunity.
(39:22):
How cool is that?
Yeah, I think we just have tomake that connection.
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
I do agree, and I think that connection's based on
performance.
So you work on a performancecriteria for the project that
you need, and that's it, right?
You just say, here's what I needto perform in this particular
function within this aspect ofthe building, and then that is
that is it.
That's all you need to know.
Everything else will fall intoplace around that.
(39:47):
So working on performance meansyou're not having a discussion.
Performance may include, um, Iwas on that same panel I was
speaking about earlier was alady named Fiona Dunnan, and
she's an architect, interiordesigner.
She wants to use the CLT wallsas the interior aesthetic as
well.
And so she wants essentially anindustrial side and a finished
(40:11):
furniture side, right?
And she builds her buildings.
There's one famous one for a bigdeveloper that she had as a
client called CLT House that wonan award in Australia, and she
did exactly that.
It was an extension, and sheused the structural wall as the
aesthetic, and she celebratedthe beauty of the biophilic
environment that she createdinside this building.
(40:32):
And that taps into exactly whatyou've been saying.
SPEAKER_02 (40:35):
Yeah.
Oh, so cool.
I have to look that one up.
I know I've heard it.
Yeah, oh, please do.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
I'll send you the link.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:43):
So where to next?
What are you gonna do in thenext year looking forward with
your crystal ball?
What's gonna come on the horizonfor you before we catch up
again?
And I'll have to make sure it'sabout Halloween now so we can
jump back on before Halloween.
SPEAKER_02 (40:58):
I know, I know.
Um, let's see.
What's to do on the horizon?
Well, I'm I'm adding an additionto my family in February.
So that's a little bit, youknow, we have to think about our
own sprouts too, and not justthe ones out in the forest.
Congratulations, so that's fun.
Thank you so much.
Um, but from the sterlingperspective, um, and just, you
(41:22):
know, I always talk from thegeneral mass timber perspective
uh as well.
I like to be more of an industryadvocate.
Um I I see these hybridwarehouses really taking off.
Um I see our next productizedapproach um that we'll be
(41:43):
launching here soon will be ourterrace system.
So that's really for multifamilyand lodging.
Um and then I do I think theseshaft walls in every style of
building.
Yeah.
So I think it's kind of that mixof like these different
productized approaches, but thethe big box uh elements and now
(42:05):
that like we've had so much goodprecedent across Europe, across
the US, across Canada, of thesebig box approaches to with mass
timber.
Um, I just see that having ahuge impact because we are
building so much that way rightnow.
And um I just want to see moreof it.
So that's where we're really,we're really looking at um kind
(42:30):
of focusing our efforts andfocusing our support for the
industry in that way.
And I will say too, thatcontinued connection to the
supply chain.
I'm I that that's the thing Icare about a lot, especially
from the job creationperspective, the economic
development perspective, justmaking sure in every country
(42:55):
that we're not leaving thepeople in behind who are
building this stuff for us,right?
We're not leaving the forestcommunities behind, we're not
leaving the loggers behind,we're not leaving the truckers
behind.
Because this industry is veryunique in how many people it can
support very well, you know, notin that way where it's like,
(43:17):
ooh, I don't know how I feelabout sand mining, you know, or
ore mining, like, you know,you're like, ee.
That's not the same thing inwood, which again is just this
really cool beauty, but it onlymatters if it's connected.
Yeah, it only matters if ifwe're thinking about it that
way.
SPEAKER_03 (43:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:35):
Um, because we still, and I don't know what
it's like in Australia, but weour sawmills are still
struggling, you know.
We're still seeing a strugglewith our sawmills.
And I am just such a fierceadvocate that US sawmills should
get a piece of the pie of USmass timber.
And they haven't been to theextent that they should.
(43:57):
And it says of me saying, hey,US all the way, baby.
Like, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying every country shouldbe supporting their own forests.
SPEAKER_03 (44:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
It's just that connection piece.
It doesn't mean we can't share,it doesn't mean we can't cross
some borders, it doesn't meanwe're not still part of a global
economy.
But this is a really uniqueproduct and it's a really unique
industry.
And it's important to remindpeople that these building
products are one part offorestry and forest products.
(44:28):
Yeah.
Without a thriving paper market,you don't really have a thriving
wood products building productsmarket.
SPEAKER_03 (44:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
So without a thriving biochar market, without
a thriving combined heat andpower market.
So it's trees support so manyindustries, and we have to
remember that holistically andsupport it across the way.
Otherwise, you know, we might beshooting ourselves in the foot
here on what we're focused onbecause we're just focused on
(44:56):
the saw log.
And there's so much more to thattree that needs healthy,
sustainable markets so that wecan keep forests healthy,
regenerating for our futuregenerations.
SPEAKER_03 (45:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:10):
Um, so that I just I always like to make sure we're
thinking about it all that way.
That's where the hippie to mecomes out.
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Well, going from disclosing that you're a hippie
and to pushing this drug calledmass timber, I'm not surprised,
right?
Um I'm not I'm not surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (45:30):
All right, I love it.
I love it.
It's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Well, thank you again so much for spending the
time.
Um congratulations again.
I hope February brings you muchjoy and happiness.
I hope you have a great holidayseason, and we will definitely
see you again in the future whenyou come back on the podcast.
And thank you for all yourcontributions today, and uh,
we'll catch up with you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, we're the moment you
allow me, hey, Paul Kramer, yourhost.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening
wherever you are in the worldtoday.
This is Paul Kramer with theMass Timber Construction
Podcast.
Back with another special guest.
I normally say special guest,this is probably an extra spicy,
crispy special guest, uh,because she's been on the show
before and we had a real laughlast time and we had a great
(01:11):
conversation.
And as usual, nothing ever goesto plan on my podcast.
So we're planning to do nothingagain.
Um but Michaela, welcome back tothe podcast again.
It's been all 14, 16 months,something like that.
A lot's changed.
Uh, tell us how things are goingfor you and what's the biggest
thing in the world for you todaybeing produced out of your
(01:33):
plant, which is made up ofmultiple parts, which we
affectionately callFrankenstein.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Yeah.
Frankenstein, happy Halloween,happy spooky season.
I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Happy Halloween to you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yeah, no, things are going really well.
Um, I'm glad to be back.
I I'm really honored that youkind of talk about us as like
the Seinfeld of Mass Timbertalking, you know, the show
about nothing.
I'll take it.
Um, but no, we'll talk a littlebit about Mass Timber at least,
right?
I think.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's correct.
But we we don't plan anything.
Like Jerry never plannedanything, it just the show
organically grew, right?
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
So it's like it's my favorite kind of show, I have to
tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Uh no, things are going great.
So, you know, we've had a Ithink that the the most of the
North American industry wouldsay we've had an interesting
year.
Um, but you know, there's alwayspositives in and silver linings
to things.
So this last year has been alittle tough from just kind of
(02:35):
the certainty of of the marketand fluctuations in pricing with
tariffs and things like that.
Uh, with Sterling, you know, weare 100% US grown, manufactured,
um, and and sourced company.
So there are some of the aspectsthat our our dear friends in
(02:56):
this industry are dealing withthat we aren't when it comes to
the lumber side of things, butthat does not mean that other
things aren't affected.
So, like we're still seeingmaybe it's the mechanical system
that doubled in price, or maybeit's this other thing.
So, one of the things I justwant to remind everybody, you
know, as much as I truly believein and want to support as much
(03:17):
domestic industry as possible,we also have to be a bit uh
realistic about a global economythat we live in.
SPEAKER_03 (03:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:23):
And so that's been for all of my dear friends in
this industry, um, specificallyconstruction, we're all just
working together and saying,okay, how can we keep these
buildings rolling?
And I would say what weexperienced at the beginning of
the year was just kind of apause.
Like everybody's like, okay,let's wait and see.
(03:44):
Let's kind of see what'shappening.
Um, and then, you know, thatthaw started over the last few
months.
And I think a lot of that ismoney doesn't like to sit,
especially people that have alot of money, they like their
money moving, making more money.
So eventually markets open backup, right?
So we're seeing constructiongetting back into the swing and
(04:05):
people making decisions againand lots of really cool,
exciting projects.
We have a few universityprojects, a few multifamily
projects.
But I think what what this yearhas really allowed us to reflect
on is our commitment to USsupply chains, um, and our
(04:26):
commitment to US forests and andwhat that means for a
construction project as a whole,you know, what that means for a
story of a whole constructionproject that might be coming
from everywhere, but what youcan tell with that story and
with that tree and with thatproduct.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Um, and then, you know, we I think last time we
talked about I've been reallyinterested in more productized
approach to mass timber.
And we've done a lot of thatwork over the last year of
launching very easy entryproduct lines.
I've been calling some of them,like our shaft wall system, like
the gateway drug to mass timber,because we have all these great
(05:05):
GCs who have no interest in masstimber.
They don't care, you know,they're doing the stuff the way
they've always done it.
But but for shaft walls with thespeed of construction, the
ability to build it at any timeof year, not having to stop
every six feet for inspections,um, they've just really loved it
as a product.
(05:25):
So that's what we really, youknow, that was the ethos at the
beginning.
How can we get this into thewider construction market?
And now these kind of easy entryLego like products are really
starting to help us, you know,get get there and and and just
pump out material and replacewhat we can and and support the
teams we can.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I never pictured you as a pusher.
Um, I really Oh yeah.
Yeah, I never thinking gatewaydrugs and and hooking people
onto something.
Um, but you know what?
That fanaticism around masstimber is probably the thing
people need.
It's infectious, um, it doescreate difference, and that
(06:04):
difference can support peoplerather than be, you know, uh
destructive in society.
We think it's constructive, andand I guess that's where the
beauty of it lays.
But that's great to hear.
I think that globally we've seena shift in construction markets.
Similarly, down here in theSouthern Hemisphere, interest
rates certainly uh they tricklethrough from triggering the
(06:26):
housing prices, the capacity toborrow, and then that slows down
the commercial activities.
And I think we find that thatreally does play out sort of 16,
18 months after you see an andand a reaction by the reserve
bank.
And so I think we're seeingsimilar trends in Europe as
(06:49):
well, here in Australia, and andand what you've just told me
maps on as well for the US.
So it's it's good to see how themarkets are starting to come
back now.
Um, people are going, we can'tjust lock everything up, we've
got to open up, and and theprojects will come forthwith,
I'm sure.
So yeah.
Speaking of projects andthinking about what you've done
(07:09):
since we last jumped on thepodcast.
Um, by the way, I just gottasay, since you went on Nick and
Brady's podcast and thispodcast, your fame has grown
exponentially, and you are nowlike getting invited across all
these, all these events acrossthe US.
And we're seeing you pop up onLinkedIn all the time, and it's
(07:29):
really fantastic to see you as arising star.
So kudos.
SPEAKER_02 (07:33):
Oh, that's so kind.
I'm like really I'm like, ohthat's very nice.
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
I think if Nick and Brady and I got together in a
room, we'd probably say, oh no,we we we we made her.
Yeah, we made her.
We're like the Hollywood.
SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
You guys can have it.
You can have it, I'm okay withthat.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Uh, I think that they would be um applauding as
well from the sidelines.
So yeah, we're big super fans uhcollectively in industry.
And I noticed there was two bigmegatrends.
You've been talking aboutprojects specifically and
products and systems.
Let's go with products andsystems first.
You mentioned the shaft wallsystem.
(08:08):
I have long thought, and so havemany others that I've been
speaking to, that systemizationis the way forward.
It's not just about panels andit's not just about bits of
Gluam and little bits of um CLTtogether.
It's it's it's systems.
You've seems to have shiftedyour product focus from products
(08:28):
to systems.
How did the genesis of thathappen?
Was that something internal ordid you have external
inspiration?
What was the give us some ideasabout how that's eventuated?
SPEAKER_02 (08:40):
Yeah, so I mean, I think the industry trends that
way anyway.
And I think that new productsstart in those like high-end
projects and then turnthemselves into systems
eventually for adoption.
So, like, I'm not gonna say it'sall internal.
Like, I do think there'sdefinitely this external thing
that drives that and drivesscale, right?
And so we're following theformat for scale.
(09:03):
Internally, though, you know, Iam so blessed and lucky to have
such a phenomenal design andengineering team.
Um, and we we really reacted towhat we learned on projects.
So we had a couple multifamilyprojects.
We had our uh Fort Bragg ummilitary hotel project.
(09:27):
And just in kind of like talkingwith our installers, this like
excitement about the shaft wallsystem started to really come
out.
Like, oh man, it was so easy howquick that thing went up.
It was so, you know, it wasreally like almost a one-for-one
replacement.
Um so that was like what wefirst reacted to.
(09:47):
We're like, hey, you know, andwe know that there, and there
are other companies that haveshaft wall systems.
Um, the nice thing with usthough, is we're kind of we're
taking a different approach,which is something we tend to
do, right?
But more of that kind ofplatform um level at a time
approach, um, and almost moreLego piece-like.
(10:09):
And I think that's reallyaccessible as a change from CMU.
You know, you can go into thebig, tall one-piece shuffle, but
there's extra bracing.
There's a lot of things that aresome behavioral shifts.
Whereas when you're just talkingto a framer who does, you know,
four over ones all day, it'svery easy to be like, hey, you
(10:30):
know, this is like four pieces.
You put it up as you go.
There's not a lot of extra work.
And that's why, that's why we'veseen such adoption for it,
especially for like the lodgingindustry, multifamily, these
ones that just like it's astaple.
It also can go with, you know,pretty much any elevator system.
So we know that there's someissues with kind of sourcing of
(10:53):
that stuff.
So when you can replace stuffout really quickly because it's
so easy to fasten into a masstimber system, there's just all
these added benefits.
Um, and and like again, we justwant to keep playing with that
Lego P system-based uh approach.
That's really how our CL Towershaft wall system came to be.
It came from projects listeningto our installers.
(11:15):
I mean, number one, I'm alwayslistening to installers because
those are the people I want tokeep happy.
Um, and that that that's been abig push.
And so as that reallymanifested, we kind of moved on
to okay, we know that there'straining mock-ups.
You know, we always see that inour specs, like, hey, I want a
mock-up.
How can we make a system forthat, for this accessibility of
(11:38):
training and education?
Um, so we both put one of thosetogether and been really helping
out with carpenters unions, ironworkers, GCs that are looking to
self-perform and kind of justfeel the material and learn.
Um, but I think the one that I'mmost excited about right now is
our timber bay system.
(11:59):
So that is really focused on umlike a pre-engineered solution
for big boxes, warehouses, datacenters.
And we're just seeing so muchexcitement around that space.
And it aligned really well withum a large warehouse that Amazon
just put their PR out about.
(12:20):
And it's really cool to see acompany so proud of all the
sustainability choices that theymade, but who collaborated and
coordinated with us very earlyto do it the right way.
I mean, this thing flew up.
Things went so well.
It wasn't like you know, youknow how those with a lot of
(12:41):
projects like that that are kindof the first ones, yeah, a lot
of hiccups.
Yeah, we there was justsomething about this team and
the way that they looked at itso early.
Um, and they really built thatsystem off of our module.
Yeah.
And by doing all of that, costcame together, speed came
together.
Um, and and it was just astellar team all around.
(13:03):
And I give Amazon a lot ofcredit for taking the initiative
to try something that matters totheir sustainability and and
speed.
You know, obviously they carry alot about speed.
So but it was really cool to seejust, you know, we were one
small part of the sustainabilityinitiatives of those warehouse
(13:26):
of that warehouse and what whatthey're looking at going
forward.
So um super fun to see it.
We hope to see a lot more, andwe're happy to support, you
know, this this kind of hybridmodel.
We know it's not all gonna be100% timber, but how can we mix
it together and just take thesesteps, take these steps forward?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yeah, uh, there's a lot in there.
Uh let's go back to the trainingmodule, right?
So we know that uh understandingof how the systems work um
breeds, I guess, um comfort inusing the system.
So it's a very smart way ofgetting as much CLT or systems
(14:10):
GLT, CLT combinations into thehands of people who are going to
ultimately end up using thisproduct and getting them
comfortable with knowing it,right?
So that's a great initiative.
And then to go from that, fromwhat happens on the contractor
side on site and translate thatthrough your engineering
(14:30):
marketing team and then into aproduct system and then sending
it out and then having thatconnect back to a project.
Now that's the gold standard.
That is the gold standard.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
We really want to see that happen more.
You know, that's we're we're atthe beginning stages of all of
that, but that's yeah,absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
But I think credit should go to you and to others
that do that.
Um, I know Storenzo was verymuch similar in their um
ideation of product systems inthe early days, they still do
it, of course, but I'm talking10 years ago.
Um, I actually think theintelligence is in mapping that
process.
It's it's how do you capturethat intelligence from the site,
(15:11):
how do you then bring that intothe engineering realm?
How do you then productize,systemize that, and then how
does that get marketed?
And I think that's the smartsbecause people don't see the
product as being a function ofprocess, and it's it's mapping
that process that's reallyimportant.
So if you haven't done it, doit.
(15:31):
If you're doing it, do more ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Yeah.
No, uh you like hit the nail onthe head because what we're
seeing with so much of the likemore niche, master more
project-based work, is it'salmost like you reinvent the
wheel over and over, right?
Or or we're designingconnections that don't think
(15:54):
about the end, or designing asystem that doesn't think about
the manufacturing.
And we're just, you know, it'slike all these disconnects that
happen.
And this is something I talkabout a lot, specifically on the
supply chain front, of likebeing very disconnected to from
the tree and the lumber, andlike, you know, like we have to
(16:15):
design for that whole system.
And that's very much like how mybrain works.
And so it's really cool on myteam to have these engineers and
architects who are very designedfor manufacture and assembly,
are very construction sitefocused and based because it's
not common.
Yeah, it's really not common.
(16:36):
You know, our director ofdesign, her early career was all
on construction sites, allconstruction management work.
That's so rare to have thatconnection.
It doesn't mean you're anexpert, but it's exactly what
you just said.
You see the process.
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
And that's where we're really trying to meet the
industry.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think the extension on topof that is we're now seeing
designers at the front end thatare outside of companies like
yours, uh thinking about thefuture of that building from a
circularity perspective.
So either slowing its use,adaptive reuse for disassembly
(17:19):
or even removing fixings fromthe system and using natural
joints and connection systemslike XTAL, for example.
Uh and and and that same processthinking is what they need as
well.
And I think for the first time,we're starting to see this
nexus, this connection betweenwhat's happening on site being
(17:42):
thought about up front in thedesign realm, but not just for
the first life of that building,potentially for adaption and
adoption and potentiallydisassembly at the end.
Now that has got a whole lot ofother challenges.
We could do another podcast onthat, but just to give you just
to give you uh and the audiencea bit of a taste art, you know,
(18:05):
they do have remanufacturingplants for Glue Lamb in Europe.
Uh there would be a conceivablefuture, I think, with the volume
of CLT out that you may havere-manufactured plants for CLT.
So we are not there yet, but wecould get there.
Um, but it's great to hear thatyour thinking process as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
And I, one of the things that was always kind of
in my head early on, and why sowe just released a design manual
and it was really focused onengaging architects and
engineers in that process-basedthinking.
Hey, what's the front end of howof what goes into a project and
a product?
(18:45):
You know, what size is thatlumber?
Where does it come from?
All that kind of stuff.
To what's the most efficientgrid where you can repeat things
as much as possible?
How can you make this as Lego,like putting, and I just was at
an amazing conference inColorado called Housing
Colorado, and it's all focusedon affordable housing.
(19:06):
And I was on a panel with umsome folks from Cunningham
Group, who's an architect baseduh in the US, and um Ryze
Modular out of um Minnesota.
And what we also what we toldall the architects in the room
was these constraints are notsupposed to limit creativity.
(19:27):
Yeah, they're supposed to makesure that the thing can get
built.
They give you power to ensurethat you value engineered from
the beginning, and they'resupposed to expand your
creativity, they're supposed togive you possibility and kind of
a limitless possibility, butjust with saying, hey, this is
(19:49):
how it can happen over and overand over again and scale.
And one thing I've always had inmy mind, just because we are
such a large site access andindustrial business, is if we
can get large enough andrepeatable enough buildings like
multifamily or hotels on aconsistent grid where let's just
(20:09):
say 80%, 80% of the pro of thepanels stay that same rectangle,
then you come to deconstructiontime, all those panels could go
into site access markets.
SPEAKER_03 (20:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
So we could, you're very like, I mean, you could
have the circularity of goingback into a building, or you
could have the circularity of ofroll rolling through an entirely
another market that's beensupported by this thing.
And I just think there's such acool thing going on there, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
Yeah, I think again, it's the limitation, limitations
in our minds, right?
That limit our thinking.
It's it's about trying to expandthat thinking.
And maybe right now in 2025, wedon't have the answer for what
we'll do with these buildingsthat we have that we're
establishing now at the end oftheir life.
(21:00):
But I think at some pointsomeone will come up with a
solution and go, we're gonnahave all these buildings coming
to a natural progression end.
What are we gonna do with them?
Because we don't want to umreduce the materials back to ash
and create more carbon.
We want to do somethingdifferent with that, right?
So I don't know what the answeris right now, but that thinking,
(21:22):
lateral thinking about accessmaps from a building, that's
exactly the sort of thinking weneed.
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
100%.
And I think what's cool is umI'm keeping my eyes on the
Netherlands because you know, Ithink over the last five to ten
years, they've had thatinitiative of everything being
deconstructed and being thoughtof to be deconstructed.
And when you start in this kindof like mindset in a in a
smaller, smaller region andreally focusing on what they're
(21:49):
doing and what works, it'sreally cool that they're kind of
setting the stage for what wemight be seeing coming down the
road.
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Yeah, they said it from Delft University.
Most of the people are at Delftand they um they think about
these things, and that's I'mactually connected with them too
through the research world, notphysically connected with them,
I'm not associated, but I readtheir work, right?
And so influences the work I doand influences what we talk
(22:18):
about on podcasts, and sothere's a real plausibility
about what can happen in thefuture from a circularity
perspective.
I think that's absolutely thekey point.
Uh, since we last spoke, we hadMicrosoft announce their data
center, and you've alluded to itwith Amazon.
Without giving too much away,tell us a little bit about the
(22:38):
Amazon project, how big it was,et cetera, et cetera.
Whatever you can tell with us uhabout what you can tell us about
AWS.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
So they just released everythingon it um this month.
I think they were really excitedto show off again the
sustainability initiative.
So this was a final milewarehouse.
And um, you know, Amazon isreally, and a lot of most of
these tech companies have beenreally kind of going, all right,
we like mass timber.
(23:08):
Like this is this is somethingthat we can do.
They're gonna be building.
I mean, that's the thing that weall have to be aware of is we're
gonna have these warehouses,we're gonna have these status
centers.
Let's do the least harm and dothe best thing we can do while
we continue to build thisinfrastructure that supports our
lifestyles at this point, right?
Life has changed a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
I think cloud-based, everything.
It's all changing.
SPEAKER_02 (23:33):
I know.
Oh, I it's it's uh it's youknow, there this is the closet
thing of like, where do we buildthese data centers?
And instead of this, not in mybackyard thing, but but it's
it's it says, okay, if if we'reI'm not much of a scroller
myself, but I I see it, I knowit's happening.
If we're scrolling, you know,we're going to need that data.
(23:54):
We're going to need these datacenters.
So how do we do that with theleast amount of harm?
And that's what I love to seefrom these companies that I'm
not gonna get that give them thecomplete out yet, but they're
starting to think about it.
And so with this final milewarehouse, um, it's in Indiana,
and they have 40 differentsustainability strategies on
(24:15):
this.
So to me, it's telling thatthey're saying we're thinking
about this, we're putting effortinto this.
This is a pilot that we want torepeat.
Um, and it's so beautiful.
Like you look at the pictures,and it's it's it's gorgeous.
It feels nice.
(24:37):
That material came from like ahundred some miles.
Our plant is super close to thisspot.
And so it's really cool to likehonor the forest, bring it into
a local community, have it comefrom jobs that were from the
local region.
Yeah, that's what we want tokeep seeing because they can
repeat that everywhere.
They can support the regionsthat they're putting these
(24:58):
buildings into and putting thesethings into everywhere.
And so what what I am seeing nowwith the data center space is
like I would love to see more ofthat circularity mentality,
especially with utilities andwater and the building itself.
And I think it's coming, butit's definitely also something
(25:21):
we all need to be saying.
Hey, we know this is gonnahappen, but let's let's demand
some strategies, right?
And that's probably gonna happenat municipal and and regional
levels, most likely.
Um, but we are definitely umworking on the interior data
center products too.
So we've partnered with acompany called EvoLink Systems.
(25:42):
Um, and they're theytraditionally make these steel
electrical equipment skids forquickly building out the
interiors of data centers.
SPEAKER_03 (25:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
And it's phenomenal how much of this stuff is in
there.
And what we learned, um, we havea patent pending on this project
on this product, but if you canreplace the base steel, which is
usually a very thick steelplate, it needs to be tapped and
dyed specifically for specificequipment.
SPEAKER_03 (26:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
And it's and the timelines are kind of long, and
they're building these thingsreally fast.
If we we we we have a CLT nowbased skid system, yeah.
And I can tell you, most ofthese data centers, they're
looking at it and going, we canget almost more sustainability
credits out of this product thanthe building itself.
Yeah, and so that's again thatthinking outside of the box.
(26:34):
Where are places where thisproduct, and it's kind of a fun
mix between structural and siteaccess, it's like almost like
right in the middle there, butthat product, I think, is just
again showing me they arethinking, they are looking and
they are saying we know we gottado better.
SPEAKER_03 (26:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
And and so it's really cool to see the adoption
around that.
Um, and even like regionalizedum edge data centers, these
modular boxes for data centersthat are more edge-based and
smaller and regionalized.
We have a huge a big partnershipthere too.
So more to come on that.
I'm hoping we can talk a lotabout that next year when we see
(27:14):
each other.
Um but it's all it's it's allbuilt in what we started with.
Yeah, what is the process end toend where you look at it
holistically and say, how do wemake this work across that whole
system?
And then it's that's how you getscale.
And and the mass timer industry,we got like all of us have to
(27:37):
just drive hard in thatdirection so that we're not
niche anymore.
Yeah, and I we're so close,we're like so close, you know?
Yeah, we're almost not that bad.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
I think the extent of the plants and the way that
organizations are moving, it'sin the right direction.
Hopefully, the pipelinecontinues to sustain.
But what I think moreimportantly is how does the
industry morph into what'srequired by industry to meet the
(28:09):
various industry objectives orgoals?
Because not every project has asustainability front, not every
project is looking atreplication.
Um, however, where you can fitin and where you can find those
markets and access thosemarkets, and and that plugs in
as a natural fit and everybodywins, I think that's the
(28:32):
challenge.
And I'm not sure I see too manypeople come to me and say, hey,
listen, we're doing thisinnovative new thing with this
organization.
I think we're all tapped intowhere we need to be.
It's just execution now.
It's understanding that processand then executing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
I think we're gonna see some uh big shifts.
You know, I I think you and I'vebeen in the nasting registry
enough to say, like, oh, we'veseen some big shifts, right?
But like this is kind of aprecipice, they think of like it
not being a niche materialanymore.
We're real, especially withhybrid construction.
(29:10):
I think that's like now thatwe've all accepted that, I mean,
even we look at AmericanInstitute of Steel, like they're
into mass timber now.
The iron workers are into masstimber now.
Like, we're something's bubblingright now that's just gonna
shift this thing over the edge.
And you're not gonna have to sayit's just the sustainability,
it's the speed, and it's theaccessibility, it's that's where
(29:33):
we want to go.
We wanna go to it just beingthis like, yeah, of course,
there's another thing we'redoing, and it's just typical.
I just want it to be liketypical, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Doctors.
I think hybrid is hybrid is theis the way it's all going.
And and I was on a panel inMelbourne just this last week
with uh architects who've beenaround since 2009 in Australia
using CLT.
And the big shift on that panelwas.
What do we consider the future?
(30:02):
And the future is definitelyhybrid.
And so, as a group ofindividuals back in 2022, we
decided to work on a scale towork out what is hybrid and what
is pure mass timber.
And we worked on similar conceptof purity, like you would in
chemistry when you're mixingtogether.
(30:25):
And so we determined that sortof below 50% is called mass
timber, and above 50% isstarting to go into hybrid and
towards full hybrid, right?
So you've got these levels ofpurity.
And that midpoint is probablysomething like uh, you know, uh
concrete basement um sub-sort ofstructure with car parks, etc.,
(30:50):
and plant and equipment to oneor two levels and then concrete
transfer, and then you've gotyour mass timber building on
top.
Okay.
The mass timber building iscould be pure on top, it could
all be mass timber, but it mightbe concrete core with steel
outriggers with CLT floor platesand a facade that chases up the
(31:11):
side with um internal wallsbeing uh cold form steel or or
timber studd and frame, right?
And so what is what is pure masstimber versus hybrid?
And I think if you look at thepercentages of the materials in
the building and you work onthis purity scale, you can
determine where the buildingfits and sits.
(31:34):
And so that's a reallyinnovative concept that we
worked on.
We never released it.
I don't know why we neverreleased it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
I'm like, send it to me.
I had to see this thing.
I love it, the purity scale.
Yes! Was there was there a costelement to looking at this too?
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Uh purely based on volumes of material, based on
invoices.
So, you know, interesting call.
You would have to have materialarrive at site.
And we thought, well, no one'sgonna invoice unless the
material is going to be thatvolume to site.
Because why would a builder payfor something that they're not
gonna use?
So it can't come from designproperties, it has to come from
(32:12):
a post-audit um of the projectto determine what its purity
level is through throughinvoiced volumes, because
volumes on the invoices don'thave a fluctuation based on
currency, and they don't have afluctuation based on um the
amount that someone charges.
(32:33):
But if at every uh cubic meteror square meter or square foot
or cubic foot, um you would haveum uh that listed on the
invoice.
So you would look through, andyou can black out all the
columns for sales data becauseyou don't need that.
You don't want to know thedollar values, you just want to
know the volumes that wereinvoiced.
And so, very much like GreenStar or LEED or any of those
(32:57):
other big programs that use thesame philosophy about transfer
chain of custody, we would thinkthat that would tap into that
chain of custody process aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
Okay, yeah, very interesting.
I I've seen a lot of that kindof like dynamic analysis with
um, you know, as you're likescheming hybrid style buildings
from the sustainability front,right?
Like you can kind of fluctuatehere and there, size, geometry,
and kind of see where it landsfrom the sustainability
(33:28):
perspective.
I'd love to see, and I thinkwe're gonna learn a lot of this
over the next few years as allthese hybrid buildings go up, is
this what is that tipping pointin the purity scale, maybe where
where cost is just like bing,this works, and then where
what's the tipping scale wheresustainability really works and
(33:49):
how do those all tie together?
Because I think if we all lookat that data together, a lot of
us are gonna go, wow, this ispretty obvious.
Yeah, we should have known this,you know.
SPEAKER_01 (34:00):
Absolutely.
The only problem It might justbe the new phase.
Yes, the only problem with LCAis the assumptions for each
project are at the eye of thebeholder, right?
So there's no standardization onthat, which makes it difficult
to do comparisons unless it's inyour own organization and you
have your BIM for mass timberhybrid, and you have your BIM
(34:24):
for conventional and you look atall the factors across your two
buildings in a repeated measuresway, otherwise you just can't
figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
We we can't generalize too much,but you know, I think it'll
it'll be really cool to see thatdata come together in some ways
as we get more precedence outthere because it's not stopping,
you know, like and and thenregionalize it.
What does that look like in thedifferent areas of Europe?
What does that look like in thedifferent areas of North
(34:53):
America?
Like, what does that look likein Australia versus New Zealand?
Like it's gonna look differentbecause we all have different
supply chains.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Absolutely, and different timber supplies, and
that's the main thing.
Exactly.
The species of timber really umdictates what your product will
actually be.
And so it's about do you have tocompensate for um a lower
strength per dimensionalthickness for your panels?
Um, do you have the capacity totreat versus not treat?
(35:21):
What does the treatment add interms of weight, um, durability,
resistance, etc.?
I mean, all of these factors,there's so many of them.
Um, one day someone's gonna do aproject and have a look at them
globally and come and tell uswhat the pattern looks like.
But yeah, it's it's it's it's ananomaly, right?
(35:42):
It's it's specifically.
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
I think about the beauty of wood though.
This is this is the this is thehill I'm dying on right now in a
good way.
But like the beauty of wood isthat unique regionalized thing,
you know, and that that's whatI've been kind of talking a lot
with.
It goes back to us saying, okay,how do we really connect people
across that process and acrossthe supply chain?
(36:05):
You know, there you you mightreally want to work with a local
species that might have a littlebit of a lower design value.
And I always am careful aboutsaying that because it doesn't
mean it's worse wood, it's justdifferent wood and different
trees and different speciescategories, right?
And you just design differently.
(36:25):
So when we talk about thesesystems, the systems also need
to understand the inputs.
So we we we have three differentspecies categories that we work
with for our CLT, all domestic,and they have different design
values.
So those project or thoseproducts and projects are are
designed a little differently.
(36:46):
But that's why you release spantables, and that's why you say,
hey, if you want spruce pine forself from Michigan, look start
with these span tables,understand what your specs say.
I think that's one of thebiggest issues we've seen is
there's like things that are inspecifications that are just not
even possible that don't honorthe beauty of a tree and that
(37:09):
don't honor the differentcategories of species that are
out there, um, and maybe haveunintentional consequences.
And that's when we're that'slike another direction that
again, that beauty.
Like I love the beauty of howtrees are so different and how
wood is so different, and thetone, the feel, the strength,
the density, all of that is sodifferent, even just throughout
(37:31):
a forest of the same species.
And and what we're doing isworking with it, working more
symbiotically with it, andgetting people connected to to
that, because I swear I stillthink there are people that
don't know that wood comes fromtrees.
Like, and my my my thing latelyhas been we we've had some like
(37:52):
specs from architects that arelike, I want no knots, zero
knots, and we're like, treeswith no branches are no fun to
climb.
Like, people are hearing me saythis too much now.
Like, trees are meant to havebranches and they're meant to
have character and they're meantto have beauty.
Like, if that's what you want,you don't want wood.
We gotta make that connection.
(38:13):
We gotta remind people.
SPEAKER_01 (38:15):
And that's the question are they happy with
finger jointing instead of knotsthen?
Are they like it's so funny?
Is that the is that thetrade-off?
SPEAKER_02 (38:22):
I know.
What's the trade-off?
Exactly.
I want a tree that's beengenetically engineered to never
have a branch, you know?
And you're like, well, do wereally want that?
Is that good for the forest?
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
What did that uh trees without branches without
branches without leaves withoutleaves without a tree?
So you won't you're just usingconcrete, really.
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
I know that's exactly what it goes back to.
Yeah, it's been my that's beenmy latest one is like I I love
that you brought it up becauselike, no, let's honor the beauty
of timber that's coming fromAustralia and all the different
species you guys have.
And it's just let's keephonoring that and what a cool
(39:02):
material that we can put ittogether the same way and
understand the difference inthose strength categories, and
and then design for it.
You can design for your localforest or your regional forest
or your domestic forest,whatever that is.
And and we all have thatopportunity.
Every country has thatopportunity.
(39:22):
How cool is that?
Yeah, I think we just have tomake that connection.
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
I do agree, and I think that connection's based on
performance.
So you work on a performancecriteria for the project that
you need, and that's it, right?
You just say, here's what I needto perform in this particular
function within this aspect ofthe building, and then that is
that is it.
That's all you need to know.
Everything else will fall intoplace around that.
(39:47):
So working on performance meansyou're not having a discussion.
Performance may include, um, Iwas on that same panel I was
speaking about earlier was alady named Fiona Dunnan, and
she's an architect, interiordesigner.
She wants to use the CLT wallsas the interior aesthetic as
well.
And so she wants essentially anindustrial side and a finished
(40:11):
furniture side, right?
And she builds her buildings.
There's one famous one for a bigdeveloper that she had as a
client called CLT House that wonan award in Australia, and she
did exactly that.
It was an extension, and sheused the structural wall as the
aesthetic, and she celebratedthe beauty of the biophilic
environment that she createdinside this building.
(40:32):
And that taps into exactly whatyou've been saying.
SPEAKER_02 (40:35):
Yeah.
Oh, so cool.
I have to look that one up.
I know I've heard it.
Yeah, oh, please do.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
I'll send you the link.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:43):
So where to next?
What are you gonna do in thenext year looking forward with
your crystal ball?
What's gonna come on the horizonfor you before we catch up
again?
And I'll have to make sure it'sabout Halloween now so we can
jump back on before Halloween.
SPEAKER_02 (40:58):
I know, I know.
Um, let's see.
What's to do on the horizon?
Well, I'm I'm adding an additionto my family in February.
So that's a little bit, youknow, we have to think about our
own sprouts too, and not justthe ones out in the forest.
Congratulations, so that's fun.
Thank you so much.
Um, but from the sterlingperspective, um, and just, you
(41:22):
know, I always talk from thegeneral mass timber perspective
uh as well.
I like to be more of an industryadvocate.
Um I I see these hybridwarehouses really taking off.
Um I see our next productizedapproach um that we'll be
(41:43):
launching here soon will be ourterrace system.
So that's really for multifamilyand lodging.
Um and then I do I think theseshaft walls in every style of
building.
Yeah.
So I think it's kind of that mixof like these different
productized approaches, but thethe big box uh elements and now
(42:05):
that like we've had so much goodprecedent across Europe, across
the US, across Canada, of thesebig box approaches to with mass
timber.
Um, I just see that having ahuge impact because we are
building so much that way rightnow.
And um I just want to see moreof it.
So that's where we're really,we're really looking at um kind
(42:30):
of focusing our efforts andfocusing our support for the
industry in that way.
And I will say too, thatcontinued connection to the
supply chain.
I'm I that that's the thing Icare about a lot, especially
from the job creationperspective, the economic
development perspective, justmaking sure in every country
(42:55):
that we're not leaving thepeople in behind who are
building this stuff for us,right?
We're not leaving the forestcommunities behind, we're not
leaving the loggers behind,we're not leaving the truckers
behind.
Because this industry is veryunique in how many people it can
support very well, you know, notin that way where it's like,
(43:17):
ooh, I don't know how I feelabout sand mining, you know, or
ore mining, like, you know,you're like, ee.
That's not the same thing inwood, which again is just this
really cool beauty, but it onlymatters if it's connected.
Yeah, it only matters if ifwe're thinking about it that
way.
SPEAKER_03 (43:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:35):
Um, because we still, and I don't know what
it's like in Australia, but weour sawmills are still
struggling, you know.
We're still seeing a strugglewith our sawmills.
And I am just such a fierceadvocate that US sawmills should
get a piece of the pie of USmass timber.
And they haven't been to theextent that they should.
(43:57):
And it says of me saying, hey,US all the way, baby.
Like, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying every country shouldbe supporting their own forests.
SPEAKER_03 (44:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
It's just that connection piece.
It doesn't mean we can't share,it doesn't mean we can't cross
some borders, it doesn't meanwe're not still part of a global
economy.
But this is a really uniqueproduct and it's a really unique
industry.
And it's important to remindpeople that these building
products are one part offorestry and forest products.
(44:28):
Yeah.
Without a thriving paper market,you don't really have a thriving
wood products building productsmarket.
SPEAKER_03 (44:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
So without a thriving biochar market, without
a thriving combined heat andpower market.
So it's trees support so manyindustries, and we have to
remember that holistically andsupport it across the way.
Otherwise, you know, we might beshooting ourselves in the foot
here on what we're focused onbecause we're just focused on
(44:56):
the saw log.
And there's so much more to thattree that needs healthy,
sustainable markets so that wecan keep forests healthy,
regenerating for our futuregenerations.
SPEAKER_03 (45:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:10):
Um, so that I just I always like to make sure we're
thinking about it all that way.
That's where the hippie to mecomes out.
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Well, going from disclosing that you're a hippie
and to pushing this drug calledmass timber, I'm not surprised,
right?
Um I'm not I'm not surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (45:30):
All right, I love it.
I love it.
It's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Well, thank you again so much for spending the
time.
Um congratulations again.
I hope February brings you muchjoy and happiness.
I hope you have a great holidayseason, and we will definitely
see you again in the future whenyou come back on the podcast.
And thank you for all yourcontributions today, and uh,
we'll catch up with you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
Thank you.
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