May 6, 2025 • 30 mins
Attracting top talent in a competitive market requires a clear strategy and intentional effort. This episode explores how to hire employees who not only meet but exceed expectations, focusing on creating a compelling culture, crafting effective job descriptions, and targeting the right candidates. Learn how to identify candidates with the right attitude, work ethic, and potential to grow, rather than solely relying on experience. Hiring the right people builds a stronger team and sets the foundation for sustainable growth. Join host Adam Sylvester, with Jackson Blackburn of Mt. Baker Window Cleaning Co., and Megan Schumann of Top Tier Plumber.
New to Jobber? Masters of Home Service listeners can claim an exclusive discount for Jobber at https://bit.ly/4d0KAEh
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I went to the Rock Gym, therock climbing gym in my area,
and I put a job ad there.You like playing at heights,
you'll like working at Heights.Come work for me. Guess what?
I hired a couple rock climbers.They were awesome with ropes.
They taught me how to rope upon a roof, so I went directly.
I knew who I wanted to hireand I went directly to them.
Welcome to jobbers,masters of Home Service,
(00:21):
a podcast for home servicepros by home service pros.
We're in Las Vegas and today we'retalking about how to hire people that are
better than you. I'm yourhost, Adam Sylvester.
Today's guests are JacksonBlackburn and Megan Schumann. Guys,
welcome to the studio. Thank you.
Adam. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, absolutely. Gladyou're here. So Megan,
why don't you tell our listeners who youare, what you do, and how you got here.
(00:43):
Sure. So I own a plumbingcompany. We do plumbing,
drain cleaning and well systems. We'vebeen in business for about 15 years,
but my background is I'm a CPA,
so started in publicaccounting and here I am.
Awesome. That's a good combo.
Jackson?
Yeah, my name's Jackson. I amfrom Bellingham, Washington.
I own a window cleaning businessand I've been using Jobber
(01:06):
for probably around fouryears now, and I'm loving it.
So just an honor to be here with you guysin beautiful Las Vegas in this amazing
studio.
So we are all jobber users here,which is great. It feels good.
All the big fans. So let's get into it.
So the goal in hiring is tohire people that are better than
you,
not just a bunch of people who can dothe job that you always feel like you're
(01:30):
better than, that's nota good way of doing it,
but how do you go about hiring peoplethat actually can exceed your abilities?
If you peel back thelayers of your business?
It really starts with yourculture and your culture
is really going to dictate who yourjob ad is going to speak to and
(01:50):
who we're ultimately goingto bring on the team.
And when we look at the job ad,
I'd say that's going to be one of themost important parts of your recruiting
process as a whole. If you havea really bland job advertisement,
you're going to get verybland applicants for that job.
So how can we make our jobadvertisement stick out and
(02:13):
really knock the socks off ofapplicants? If you can do that,
you're going to have a much bettertime sifting through applications.
And then taking that a step further,how can we construct that job ad?
So also eliminate people that we don'twant to waste our time bringing in for
interviews and going throughprescreening questions with.
So at my business in particular,
(02:33):
we have a very difficult job ifyou don't like working at heights,
if you don't like working outside,
if you don't like working somelong hours every now and then,
you're not going to last long.
So I'm going to put that into our jobadvertisement so I can weed out the people
that I don't want.
I'd rather have 10 applicationswhere I want to hire five of
them than get 200 applications and haveto sift through every single one of
(02:55):
those. Well said.
Yeah, kind of go on the company culture,
that's huge. And for us,
I'm hiring based onattitude and ability or
future ability, I should say. Itdoesn't have to be present day ability.
So if somebody has a good attitude,
they've got a good work ethic and I knowthat I can figure that out through job
(03:19):
interview, through job shattering,through whatever we do.
I am way more willing to train.
Some of my most successful peopleare ones that we've hired and we've
grown them inside. They've learnedbecause they had good ability,
ability to learn and good work ethic.
Yeah,
I definitely think that part of thehiring process or recruiting process needs
(03:41):
to include this vision of the future. Hey,
you can start out as an apprentice,
become a junior tech and a senior techand all these different levels of the
latter. A lot of the people thatwere hiring for these trade jobs,
they are currentlyworking at a dead end job,
and that's the word they would use.
And they don't want attitude andability or future ability, I should say.
(04:04):
It doesn't have to be present day ability.So if somebody has a good attitude,
they've got a good work ethic,
and I know that I can figurethat out through job interview,
through job shattering, through whateverwe do. I am way more willing to train.
Some of my most successful peopleare ones that we've hired and we've
grown them inside. So they've learnedbecause they had good ability,
(04:28):
ability to learn and good work ethic.
Yeah,
I definitely think that part of thehiring process or recruiting process needs
to include this vision of the future. Hey,
you can start out as an apprentice,
but you become a junior tech and a seniortech and all these different levels of
the latter. A lot of the peoplethat're hiring for these trade jobs,
(04:49):
they are currently working at a dead endjob and that's the word they would use.
And they don't want to do that anymore.
They want to work somewhere wherethey can advance their career.
They can feel like they're actuallygoing somewhere and getting better at
training and learning more.And you shouldn't bury that.
You should make that very open andobvious to people in the job description.
Don't you guys think?
I think you really have to be open todifferent industries because that also can
(05:13):
open up.
They have different things that they'veseen in the world and they can bring
something into your business thatsomeone who's always been in the plumbing
industry might not understand.
If they've been in hospitality,
maybe they've got a different attitudethat they can bring and benefit to your
company.
Yeah, I think vision's so important.
(05:34):
David Erman from home service businesscoach told me a long time ago,
you wouldn't jump on a bus if youdidn't know where that bus was going.
And the same thing pertains to anemployee joining your business.
Why would someone join your business ifyou didn't know where that business was
going? It's not a short bus ride. Thiscould be a 2, 5, 10 year bus ride.
You're going to want toknow where that's going.
And so that's why it's part of ourprocess when we bring someone in for an
(05:56):
interview, if we reallylike that candidate,
we're going to show them a printed out,
nicely designed three-year visionfor our company and talk about that
with them and say, Hey, is this somethingthat you would like to be a part of?
And for the right candidate that wantsto work for a company where they see
opportunity, where theywant to develop themselves,
where they maybe wantto advance their career,
(06:17):
they're going to love seeing that vision.
And the chances are if they're applyingto other home service businesses in your
area, no one else is showingthem anything like that.
So who do you think has the upper handin hiring that rockstar candidate? Well,
you do because you've shown them a pathto the future. It's so important to get,
especially this new generation ofworkers. They want chances to develop.
(06:38):
They don't want to workthese dead end jobs.
They don't go to work just for $25an hour. Anyone can give them that,
but who can really show themwhat the future looks like?
Yeah, we take that a step further too.
We really invest in thelong game with people.
So I'm going to jobfairs at middle schools,
not just high schools, not justtrade schools. I'm starting at that,
(07:02):
just that exposure level. Thosekids have no idea what a plumber is.
They don't know what that industry is,
but all it takes is oneperson telling that kid, Hey,
do you like to work with yourhands? Do you like to be outside?
Do you seeing a project to completion?
And sometimes that's just that onelittle trigger and they'll remember that.
And hey, if you ever want a job shadow,if you ever want to see more, call me.
(07:25):
And so I have had success with just kindof planting that seed early and then
falling back up in highschool and trying that.
I like that because it's goodleadership. And to use your bus example,
people also look to seewho's the driver of the bus.
And if there's a weak leader in thebus, not very compelling to join.
But if there's a leader in the buswho has clear vision for the business,
(07:49):
who is willing to do those kindsof things to develop people,
even at a younger age,
I think people are way more likelyto be attracted to that business,
at least for a proper interview.And at least to begin that process.
They may not ultimately work out,
but we have to look at ourselves becausepeople are ultimately attracted to the
leader of the business the most.
And so what are some things that you guyshave learned about yourselves and from
(08:10):
looking at other businesses that theleader needs to be doing in the hiring
process to make sure that peopleare attracted to the right things?
I've been really focused on buildinga team that has amazing chemistry
together and that reallystarted with why our
business was created andwhy we are still around.
There's a book by SimonSinek called Start With Why.
(08:34):
And reading that book was one of themost impactful things I've done for my
business because when I looked back,
I'd realized that a lot of people startbusinesses to make more money or get
freedom. That's a huge reason. And thenyou got to peel that back and say, well,
why did I want more time ormore freedom? And for me,
it was always so that I could have thattime and freedom to go enjoy outdoor
(08:55):
recreation,
whether that was snowboarding orsnowmobiling or riding my mountain bike.
And so that Y now extendsto all of my employees,
and we really want to look for peoplethat share those same values and they want
to work this job so that they canget their time off to go kayaking,
to go skateboarding, to goon a hike, whatever that is.
And that lives very deeply insideof our business. So as a leader,
(09:19):
I'm looking for people that wantto be on that same mission as I am.
And because we've done such a good jobat finding and recruiting these folks,
we have amazing chemistry within ourteam, and it really does feel like a team.
A lot of companies will say,Hey, we're a family here. Well,
are you guys a family or is it just acollection of people making $20 an hour?
(09:39):
But I really feel like we have a teambecause we have the same vision and the
same value. So pretty cool. Yeah.
I love that.
I also think that people won't actuallyknow you have good chemistry unless you
had them come in andsee it for themselves.
So that's why we do a lot of ride-alongsand working interviews and stuff
because we want the people,
we tell this candidate all thesethings about our company. Oh,
(10:00):
we have great culture, we havegreat chemistry, we have all this.
And they're like, yeah, I'll believeit when I see it. Everybody says that.
But then you bring them in and theywork for the day and they're like, wow,
everything Adam said is trueexcept for that one thing.
And I have a question about that.
And it gives them an opportunitybecause I always tell candidates this,
if you go work at Lowe's, youknow exactly what you're getting.
Everybody's been toLowe's a million times,
but you don't know what my business is.You have no idea. It's small company.
(10:24):
No one knows. And so the only wayfor you to know what we're like,
our technicians are,
our clients are our job is our work iscome experience it and then they can
verify everything Adamwas saying was spot on.
Right? Yeah.
I was actually just at a dinnerthat the topic was finding your why.
And so it was Dale Wilshire,she's like a life coach.
And so she talked a lot aboutfinding your authentic personality.
(10:47):
And I think that is really,really true as a business owner,
if you can communicate who youreally are, what your goals are,
what you stand for,
and also know whatmotivates those employees.
So one of the questions that I liketo ask when I'm interviewing people,
what motivates you? What frustrates you?
Because if I know what their values are,
(11:09):
I know if it's a good position forthem because we do need all different
personalities. That's whatmakes a business good.
You need that really outgoing person.You need that really analytical person.
You need all those differentmakeups to make it good.
And so being able to ask those questionsand make sure that they're a good fit,
not only for that position,but then for your culture,
(11:30):
I think is really important.
Two questions here. I want to know whatwe're looking for in a candidate from a,
well, we'll stop there. And then two,
I want to talk about how doyou flush that out with them?
One thing you ask people and then theygive you the answer they think you want
to know, and then there's other waysto really draw out the real truth,
the thing behind the thing.
(11:50):
So what have you guys foundthat works in those kinds of.
Well, I've got a couplequestions that I really like,
and my favorite question to ask in aninterview is, on a scale of one to 10,
how would you rate your luck in life?
And this really paints apicture of their optimism versus
pessimism.
Or maybe they have a standpoint in lifewhere they play the victim card and we
(12:12):
don't want to hire those people.We want really optimistic people.
If you're answering thatat less than an eight,
a red flag is poppingup in my mind for sure.
And then secondarily,
what I really like to ask is what madeyou apply for our company specifically
not to be a window cleaner, not toclean roof, not to pressure wash,
but what made you apply toour company specifically?
(12:33):
And this will really give you a goodanswer if they were drawn to the company
culture, if it was the pay,you don't want it to be, Hey,
I saw that you guys were paying $25an hour plus tips. It's like, oh,
I don't want you here because youwant to make good money. I mean,
I want you to make good money.I want you to do well in life,
but that's not why I want you here. Iwant you to be a part of something bigger.
I want you to be a part of this team.
(12:54):
So those are the questions that Itry and really ask are ones that
identify their traits,
see if they have the soft skillsover the hard skills and see, hey,
are you going to be a reallygood mesh with our company?
Are you going to addto our company culture?
Yeah, we ask similar kind of why us?
And a lot of times I'm hiring youngerindividuals maybe right out of high
(13:16):
school. And so that canbe a very interesting,
they don't know what they want to do andthey're just trying to figure it out.
And what drew you to us?What drew you to plumbing?
And making sure that it's a fitnot just for plumbing industry,
but we're in a smaller community.
I want to know that they wantto be in that smaller community,
stay in that smaller community.
(13:36):
And I'm not just training them to thengo on to some of the big companies an
hour away.
My favorite question to a technicianwho currently works here is why.
And so I like to ask that same questionto people I'm interviewing, oh,
I quit that job last month. Why?Well, I didn't really quit. Well,
it just wasn't really working out.What do you mean by that? Well,
(13:57):
they fired me. If you just say,oh, he quit and you just move on.
But asking why this helpsyou flush out so many things,
it shows that they're articulate andthey can actually explain things in a
coherent way.
And that's actually helpful becauseyou're going to need them to do that when
they work here. So you need tomake sure they can do that. Now,
you also want to make surewhat they say is true.
You want to make sure what they sayaligns up with reality lines up with what
(14:19):
they've said in the past. And wait,earlier you said you went to Ohio,
but then you said Texas.Well, what? Right.
Let's get to the truth here becauseI find that there's a lot of BS in
interviews. You guys know this, andit's not necessarily with ill intent.
It's just people have a lotof baggage. People have,
a lot of people have lived life and lifeis best, and you need to get to that.
(14:40):
You need to find outwhat's really going on.
And Y also helps you find the reallygood candidates if they answer all your Y
questions really solid andyou've got a great candidate.
Yeah, I'd say another reallybig one too for me is asking,
Hey, what's really importantin the next job that you get,
whether it's here or somewhereelse? That's a good question.
And what I really want to hear a lotof the time when I ask that question is
(15:01):
that I want chances for development andI want learning opportunities because
that means that you have a really goodchance at being with us for a long time.
People that want to develop, I wantyou on my team. If you want to learn,
I want you on my team.
Those are the people that are going tohelp grow the business because at the end
of the day, in a home servicebusiness, your business is your people.
And if you ever get to a pointwhere you have got, let's say,
(15:21):
10 technicians and no one's got managerialskills because you didn't hire people
that wanted to learn and wanted to advanceand wanted to growth in the company,
well, guess what? The owner you'regetting called back in, right?
You're getting calledback into the office.
You're getting called back into the truck,
which is going to not be great for thegrowth of your business or the overall
health of your business. So I wantpeople that want to take that next step.
They want to learn new skills.They want to develop themselves.
(15:44):
We really work on developingrelationships too with trade schools
and the high school like teched teachers and those people
because someone will put referencesdown for a job and you know what you're
going to get when youcall those references.
But being able to have other peoplethat know them well and have that
(16:05):
source of truth that you canfind out and potentially find
good people that way, that's somethingthat we do that is pretty successful.
Being able to drill down on isthis person really a good fit?
I love references.
I think references are one of the mostoverlooked things in business because
half the time people weed themselvesout just by the references They give me,
(16:29):
someone say, yeah, he's all right.Just all right. Yeah, he's good.
Well, he did the job and they'retrying to avoid the real thing,
which they weren't very good.So I love calling references.
I think they're so effective. Itdoesn't mean they're a good candidate,
but you can instantly weed outbad candidates by references.
I'm a huge fan of references. Well,
I'm going to pause this great conversationfor a minute to talk about jobber,
(16:50):
guys. We know that Jobber helps usactually recruit and maintain top talent.
How has it helped you maintainand keep really good people?
Because some of the featuresthat Jobber has, Megan?
Yeah,
the scheduling just for all of myplumbers can see the night before what
they're getting into for the nextday. They know we live in Wisconsin,
so it's cold. They can know ifthey're outside, if they're inside,
(17:12):
if they need to be dressedaccordingly. That just really,
really helps them know whatthe day's going to bring.
Yeah, people hate being like in thetext the morning of, Hey, go drive here.
Here's the address, and do this.Jobber makes it so much better.
I'm a huge fan of jobbertips. It's an amazing feature.
Every year our techniciansbring in around $20,000 in
(17:33):
tips through those online payments,
not to mention everythingthey collect in cash,
which is great for them because now ourtechnicians are working harder to earn
that tip. We're making happyclients. It's an amazing tool.
Our guys make a couple hundred dollarsa week from the tips. It's amazing,
right?
Oh yeah.
It's awesome.
You need to start using jobber today forbetter scheduling for your technicians
(17:54):
and the tips.
Go to jobber.com/podcast deal anexclusive discount and start using jobber
today. Are you guys familiar withthe team player model? Patrick Lin,
the three ideal team player,the ideal team player.
Patrick Osh wrote this book about it,
and it's basically like they needto be humble, hungry, and smart.
Humble means they don't have anego. They take feedback well,
(18:19):
they're easy to work with. Well,team players easy to work with,
and then hungry means they're eager tomake money to learn to advance their
career. They'll staylate, they'll come early,
they'll do whatever it needsto be done to be successful.
And then smart is like this eq, softskills. Can they read the room well?
Do they understand when a clientis actually not very happy,
(18:40):
but they're pretending to be?
Do they know when they just need togive their coworker just five minutes of
time? Do they talk too much?
Do they just have these softskills that are just easy?
And ultimately the team players,people who they just like
people that you like.
So I'm looking for those threecharacteristics in an interview.
Any other characteristicsthat you guys are looking for?
(19:02):
I think those are great,and maybe you just said it,
but I think one of thequestions that we ask,
which will reveal a traitif they have it or not,
what would you like topersonally get better at,
whether it's professionally or personally?
And if people can give you a straightup answer to something that they're
actually an area in life orbusiness that they're weak in,
(19:22):
then that means that they can lookinto themselves and they can better
themselves, which means thatthey're going to be coachable,
which is someone that youwant at your business.
So I don't want to bring onsomeone that says, oh, no,
I think I'm doing great ateverything. I'm really good at this.
I'm really good at that. I wantto hear what your weaknesses are.
I want to know that youcan identify, yeah, yeah,
you have self-awareness and so thatyou can actually improve in certain
(19:44):
areas.
So the next I want to talk aboutis do you hire with experience?
And this can be very differentbecause Megan is hiring for
plumbing is a very high skilledthing for the most part.
And pressure washing gutters notas high skill, don't need licenses,
that kind of stuff. So thereare different businesses.
(20:04):
I'm curious how you guys answerthis, but let's go ahead, Megan.
Do you hire solely on experience?
No.
I would love to be able to hireexperienced journeyman master
plumbers and just find those all over you.
A shortage are not around.
So that is where we've hadsuccess growing our own.
(20:26):
So that's why I really invest in themiddle schools, the high schools,
the trade schools,
finding younger individuals ordoesn't always have to be younger.
Maybe it's from a different background,
but being able to findsomebody who's good that way,
and then we train them and we don'thave to also train people out of bad
habits too. We can train themour way. And so plumbing, I mean,
(20:48):
it's five-year apprenticeshipto sit for your journeyman exam.
It's a commitment on ourpart and on their part.
Use commitment.
We want to make sure it's a good fit.
So we have had the most successtraining your own people,
but we've been lucky and foundsome already skilled people.
So you have to be open to finding whatever
(21:09):
talent you can, I think,to be able to grow that.
And I think when I'mhiring younger individuals,
the thing that I have to be reallyconscious of is these are 18-year-old kids
a lot of times, and you have to givethem grace to be able to mature.
They're going to make mistakes, documentit, have the conversation with them,
and have the follow-up plan sothat it doesn't get out of control.
(21:33):
And you can decide if theystill are a good fit or not.
But when you're dealingwith younger individuals,
there's just a lot of maturitythat has to happen there.
I'm actually surprised to hear that inplumbing that it's gotten to that point
as well where, hey,
we're taking people that are core valuefits and that we see want to learn how
to do this, and that's amazing.So we're in the same boat.
(21:55):
I don't don't think I've ever hiredanyone that's had prior window cleaning
experience,
maybe one technician over the yearsbecause I'm looking for the soft skills.
I don't care how wellyou can clean a window.
I don't care how well how manygutters you say that you've cleaned,
anyone can learn how to do that. Ifyou've got a good training program,
if you've got the SOPs,take it a step further.
If you have someone in your businessthat is a lead technician or maybe a
(22:16):
production manager or a hybridbetween the two, even better.
You can train peoplehow to do these things,
but the longevity that you're going toget is going to come from are they a core
value match? Do we like them? Dothey have chemistry with the team,
or do we have chances todevelop them as human beings?
So that's who we're really looking for.
Experience is probably thelast thing that we look for.
(22:40):
I wouldn't even say it's onthe list of requirements or
expectations for people applyingto Mount Baker window cleaning.
The thing is,
out of all the things we want ourpeople to have out of all the different
characteristics, experience isthe only thing we can give them.
We can help them develop softskills, but at the end of the day,
(23:01):
that's up to them. Butwe can give experience.
And so that's really thelast thing. Like you said,
it should be the last thing on thelist in my view for most jobs is like,
Hey, I can give you the skills.I can give you experience.
That's the only I can, but Ineed you to be a hard worker.
I need you to have a good attitude.I need people to like you.
Can you do that because you can wrestlewith them, but at the end of the day,
(23:21):
they have to decide for themselves thatthey're going to have those kind of
characteristics.
I think it plagues a lot of homeservice businesses because I do
believe that a lot of homeservice business owners have it backwards where they
do hire for the hard skillsbecause maybe they're in a
pinch and they need to get someonethat week in that knows how to do that
(23:42):
certain trade. And then they endup saying down the road, Hey,
this guy's really goodat doing the actual work,
but he's got a terribleattitude. And you're right.
You cannot train those soft skills.You cannot train someone for attitude.
You can absolutely train the hard skillsas long as you have those systems in
place and you're a good leader.
So what ends up happening is that yourcompany is built up of what we would
(24:04):
call a maverick,
which is someone that doesn't reallycare about the vision of the company,
it's all.
About them.
They're not a core value fit.Maybe they don't follow the SOPs,
they do things their own way.
And then you end up with a dysfunctionalcompany because you have these people
that, yeah, they're verygood at the technical skills,
but they're not bought into anything else.
And so what I like tostart with is getting,
(24:26):
it's a completely differentsquadrant of this square.
If we can just imagine a square here,the maverick being in the top left,
you've got a loyal worker. So this issomeone who comes into your business,
they identify with yourmission, with your values,
and you coach them up.
You teach them the technical skills andcan turn them into what we would call a
(24:47):
rockstar. And that's what youwant to comprise your business of.
So everyone's going tostart as a loyal worker,
as long as you can find someone thatis on board with what you're trying to
create, with what you're trying tobuild. They like you as a leader.
You can coach them up tobe very good technically.
Yeah.
So talking about hiring throughthe lens of our listeners who
(25:09):
are really needing to hire people.
We've gotten them to the pointwhere they know what to look for,
but now where do theylook? Are we on Indeed?
Where are you finding employees? That'sa big hangup for people. Do they just,
Craigslist is still a thingnow. What do you guys think?
We do a lot of Facebook ads. And honestly,because we're in a smaller community,
(25:32):
I am hiring people that Iknow through contacts that I
know from these trade schools that I knowfrom the high schools that I know I'm
getting names that way.
Some of my most successful hires havebeen cold calls that I have just, Hey,
heard you just graduated tech school,heard you didn't want to do that.
You want to do plumbing? Have you everthought about it? Come job shadow.
(25:54):
See what you think. So Ithink just being open to,
honestly out in the community, if there'ssomeone you see that is a rockstar,
I don't know, a waiter, maybe theydon't want to be a waiter forever,
it's okay to ask people, Hey,have you ever thought about this?
You might be surprised. Youmight find someone really good.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think that when we goto Indeed or Craigslist,
(26:19):
a couple of things are happening. One,
you're casting this huge net overa massive area to try and find a
needle in a haystack.And then secondarily,
you're looking for people that are alreadyunemployed. Why are they unemployed?
Why don't you have a job? Howlong have you been unemployed?
So we're not reallylooking in the right place,
and we're going very deep into that zone.
(26:40):
So I'll just give you an example.When I started the business,
I knew that I had thisoutdoor recreation culture,
and I needed to learn myself how to geton roofs and how to rope up and clean
gutters on technical homes.So I went to the Rock gym,
the rock climbing gym in myarea, and I put a job ad there.
You like playing at heights, you likeworking at Heights. Come work for me.
(27:02):
Guess what? I hired a couple of rockclimbers. They were awesome with ropes.
They taught me how to rope upon a roof. So I went directly,
I knew who I wanted to hire, and Iwent directly to them. So how do we,
instead of casting this huge netover our entire service area,
how do we just direct our job ads and our
(27:23):
efforts towards the people that weknow we want to work in our companies?
And then you're going to havea much higher success rate.
You're going to go through less resumes,you're going to have less interviews,
and you're going to find better people.And then I guess to add to that too,
because we don't necessarily want tobe looking in places where we just have
this huge unemployment pool.
(27:45):
We want our brand tospeak to people that maybe
already have jobs and they're looking toswitch careers. Just like you've said,
you've outreached to people working in it.
Just different.
In a different industry, differentarea, a different industry.
So how do we construct oursocial media to showcase
what fun our employees arehaving at work, outside of work,
(28:09):
just to showcase this incrediblecompany culture that we've built?
And if you can continuously do that,
people are going to start tohave awareness of your brand,
and they're going to start to reach outto you without even you having to put on
a job ad. They're like, Hey,
I've been looking at yourcompany for a few years now,
and I've really wanted to come. We hadthis kid this year come apply for a job.
He said, do you remember me? Isaid, not really. He's like, yeah,
(28:30):
I was here last year, but youtold me that I was too young,
but I've been waiting to apply at yourcompany. That's cool. And I'm like, man,
you're hired.
How old are you.
Now? Yeah, you're here. So yeah,
plenty of things that you can do,
but just don't be putting generic jobads into this and casting this huge net
because you're going to get frustrated.There's no one good out here.
(28:52):
You've sifted through 200 resumesand none of them are good. Well,
you don't even know who youwant working at your company.
So if you haven't figuredthat out yet, well,
how are you going to directlytarget them? Well, you're not.
And if you have good company cultureand you have good people already,
your current employees are going tobe your best ads, your best job ads.
They are the ones that can actuallytell people, you know what?
(29:14):
It is really great here.I really do like my job.
I really do like what I'm doing. So ifyou're treating your current employees,
they're also the ones. If theyknow you're looking for people,
they're going to be able to talk to whothey know and who they know and who they
know, and it spreads and you'll getthe right people coming back to you.
I think that if people spent oras aggressive recruiting as they
(29:37):
were by getting new leads, they'dprobably be a lot better recruiting.
But we're not. We spend a hundredpercent of our effort getting leads,
and then we throw some timeat recruiting and we think,
why aren't we successful? Well,
you wouldn't get any leads for new workif you gave it the same effort that
you're giving new hires. Sohow about you mess it up?
It's true. It's so true. And honestly,
(29:59):
the people that you bring into yourteam are going to be more important than
those.
If you get five leads for a candidateto join your company for a technician
role, it's going to be way more importantthan five leads for washing a house or
whatever your industry is.
Well, guys, this is a great conversation.
I'm going to boil it downto three actual items here.
Number one is create acompelling job description.
(30:21):
Have the three-year vision in there.Make sure that people know how they.
I went to the Rock Gym, therock climbing gym in my area,
and I put a job ad there.You like playing at heights,
you'll like working at Heights.Come work for me. Guess what?
I hired a couple rock climbers.They were awesome with ropes.
They taught me how to rope upon a roof, so I went directly.
I knew who I wanted to hireand I went directly to them.
Welcome to jobbers,masters of Home Service,
(00:21):
a podcast for home servicepros by home service pros.
We're in Las Vegas and today we'retalking about how to hire people that are
better than you. I'm yourhost, Adam Sylvester.
Today's guests are JacksonBlackburn and Megan Schumann. Guys,
welcome to the studio. Thank you.
Adam. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, absolutely. Gladyou're here. So Megan,
why don't you tell our listeners who youare, what you do, and how you got here.
(00:43):
Sure. So I own a plumbingcompany. We do plumbing,
drain cleaning and well systems. We'vebeen in business for about 15 years,
but my background is I'm a CPA,
so started in publicaccounting and here I am.
Awesome. That's a good combo.
Jackson?
Yeah, my name's Jackson. I amfrom Bellingham, Washington.
I own a window cleaning businessand I've been using Jobber
(01:06):
for probably around fouryears now, and I'm loving it.
So just an honor to be here with you guysin beautiful Las Vegas in this amazing
studio.
So we are all jobber users here,which is great. It feels good.
All the big fans. So let's get into it.
So the goal in hiring is tohire people that are better than
you,
not just a bunch of people who can dothe job that you always feel like you're
(01:30):
better than, that's nota good way of doing it,
but how do you go about hiring peoplethat actually can exceed your abilities?
If you peel back thelayers of your business?
It really starts with yourculture and your culture
is really going to dictate who yourjob ad is going to speak to and
(01:50):
who we're ultimately goingto bring on the team.
And when we look at the job ad,
I'd say that's going to be one of themost important parts of your recruiting
process as a whole. If you havea really bland job advertisement,
you're going to get verybland applicants for that job.
So how can we make our jobadvertisement stick out and
(02:13):
really knock the socks off ofapplicants? If you can do that,
you're going to have a much bettertime sifting through applications.
And then taking that a step further,how can we construct that job ad?
So also eliminate people that we don'twant to waste our time bringing in for
interviews and going throughprescreening questions with.
So at my business in particular,
(02:33):
we have a very difficult job ifyou don't like working at heights,
if you don't like working outside,
if you don't like working somelong hours every now and then,
you're not going to last long.
So I'm going to put that into our jobadvertisement so I can weed out the people
that I don't want.
I'd rather have 10 applicationswhere I want to hire five of
them than get 200 applications and haveto sift through every single one of
(02:55):
those. Well said.
Yeah, kind of go on the company culture,
that's huge. And for us,
I'm hiring based onattitude and ability or
future ability, I should say. Itdoesn't have to be present day ability.
So if somebody has a good attitude,
they've got a good work ethic and I knowthat I can figure that out through job
(03:19):
interview, through job shattering,through whatever we do.
I am way more willing to train.
Some of my most successful peopleare ones that we've hired and we've
grown them inside. They've learnedbecause they had good ability,
ability to learn and good work ethic.
Yeah,
I definitely think that part of thehiring process or recruiting process needs
(03:41):
to include this vision of the future. Hey,
you can start out as an apprentice,
become a junior tech and a senior techand all these different levels of the
latter. A lot of the people thatwere hiring for these trade jobs,
they are currentlyworking at a dead end job,
and that's the word they would use.
And they don't want attitude andability or future ability, I should say.
(04:04):
It doesn't have to be present day ability.So if somebody has a good attitude,
they've got a good work ethic,
and I know that I can figurethat out through job interview,
through job shattering, through whateverwe do. I am way more willing to train.
Some of my most successful peopleare ones that we've hired and we've
grown them inside. So they've learnedbecause they had good ability,
(04:28):
ability to learn and good work ethic.
Yeah,
I definitely think that part of thehiring process or recruiting process needs
to include this vision of the future. Hey,
you can start out as an apprentice,
but you become a junior tech and a seniortech and all these different levels of
the latter. A lot of the peoplethat're hiring for these trade jobs,
(04:49):
they are currently working at a dead endjob and that's the word they would use.
And they don't want to do that anymore.
They want to work somewhere wherethey can advance their career.
They can feel like they're actuallygoing somewhere and getting better at
training and learning more.And you shouldn't bury that.
You should make that very open andobvious to people in the job description.
Don't you guys think?
I think you really have to be open todifferent industries because that also can
(05:13):
open up.
They have different things that they'veseen in the world and they can bring
something into your business thatsomeone who's always been in the plumbing
industry might not understand.
If they've been in hospitality,
maybe they've got a different attitudethat they can bring and benefit to your
company.
Yeah, I think vision's so important.
(05:34):
David Erman from home service businesscoach told me a long time ago,
you wouldn't jump on a bus if youdidn't know where that bus was going.
And the same thing pertains to anemployee joining your business.
Why would someone join your business ifyou didn't know where that business was
going? It's not a short bus ride. Thiscould be a 2, 5, 10 year bus ride.
You're going to want toknow where that's going.
And so that's why it's part of ourprocess when we bring someone in for an
(05:56):
interview, if we reallylike that candidate,
we're going to show them a printed out,
nicely designed three-year visionfor our company and talk about that
with them and say, Hey, is this somethingthat you would like to be a part of?
And for the right candidate that wantsto work for a company where they see
opportunity, where theywant to develop themselves,
where they maybe wantto advance their career,
(06:17):
they're going to love seeing that vision.
And the chances are if they're applyingto other home service businesses in your
area, no one else is showingthem anything like that.
So who do you think has the upper handin hiring that rockstar candidate? Well,
you do because you've shown them a pathto the future. It's so important to get,
especially this new generation ofworkers. They want chances to develop.
(06:38):
They don't want to workthese dead end jobs.
They don't go to work just for $25an hour. Anyone can give them that,
but who can really show themwhat the future looks like?
Yeah, we take that a step further too.
We really invest in thelong game with people.
So I'm going to jobfairs at middle schools,
not just high schools, not justtrade schools. I'm starting at that,
(07:02):
just that exposure level. Thosekids have no idea what a plumber is.
They don't know what that industry is,
but all it takes is oneperson telling that kid, Hey,
do you like to work with yourhands? Do you like to be outside?
Do you seeing a project to completion?
And sometimes that's just that onelittle trigger and they'll remember that.
And hey, if you ever want a job shadow,if you ever want to see more, call me.
(07:25):
And so I have had success with just kindof planting that seed early and then
falling back up in highschool and trying that.
I like that because it's goodleadership. And to use your bus example,
people also look to seewho's the driver of the bus.
And if there's a weak leader in thebus, not very compelling to join.
But if there's a leader in the buswho has clear vision for the business,
(07:49):
who is willing to do those kindsof things to develop people,
even at a younger age,
I think people are way more likelyto be attracted to that business,
at least for a proper interview.And at least to begin that process.
They may not ultimately work out,
but we have to look at ourselves becausepeople are ultimately attracted to the
leader of the business the most.
And so what are some things that you guyshave learned about yourselves and from
(08:10):
looking at other businesses that theleader needs to be doing in the hiring
process to make sure that peopleare attracted to the right things?
I've been really focused on buildinga team that has amazing chemistry
together and that reallystarted with why our
business was created andwhy we are still around.
There's a book by SimonSinek called Start With Why.
(08:34):
And reading that book was one of themost impactful things I've done for my
business because when I looked back,
I'd realized that a lot of people startbusinesses to make more money or get
freedom. That's a huge reason. And thenyou got to peel that back and say, well,
why did I want more time ormore freedom? And for me,
it was always so that I could have thattime and freedom to go enjoy outdoor
(08:55):
recreation,
whether that was snowboarding orsnowmobiling or riding my mountain bike.
And so that Y now extendsto all of my employees,
and we really want to look for peoplethat share those same values and they want
to work this job so that they canget their time off to go kayaking,
to go skateboarding, to goon a hike, whatever that is.
And that lives very deeply insideof our business. So as a leader,
(09:19):
I'm looking for people that wantto be on that same mission as I am.
And because we've done such a good jobat finding and recruiting these folks,
we have amazing chemistry within ourteam, and it really does feel like a team.
A lot of companies will say,Hey, we're a family here. Well,
are you guys a family or is it just acollection of people making $20 an hour?
(09:39):
But I really feel like we have a teambecause we have the same vision and the
same value. So pretty cool. Yeah.
I love that.
I also think that people won't actuallyknow you have good chemistry unless you
had them come in andsee it for themselves.
So that's why we do a lot of ride-alongsand working interviews and stuff
because we want the people,
we tell this candidate all thesethings about our company. Oh,
(10:00):
we have great culture, we havegreat chemistry, we have all this.
And they're like, yeah, I'll believeit when I see it. Everybody says that.
But then you bring them in and theywork for the day and they're like, wow,
everything Adam said is trueexcept for that one thing.
And I have a question about that.
And it gives them an opportunitybecause I always tell candidates this,
if you go work at Lowe's, youknow exactly what you're getting.
Everybody's been toLowe's a million times,
but you don't know what my business is.You have no idea. It's small company.
(10:24):
No one knows. And so the only wayfor you to know what we're like,
our technicians are,
our clients are our job is our work iscome experience it and then they can
verify everything Adamwas saying was spot on.
Right? Yeah.
I was actually just at a dinnerthat the topic was finding your why.
And so it was Dale Wilshire,she's like a life coach.
And so she talked a lot aboutfinding your authentic personality.
(10:47):
And I think that is really,really true as a business owner,
if you can communicate who youreally are, what your goals are,
what you stand for,
and also know whatmotivates those employees.
So one of the questions that I liketo ask when I'm interviewing people,
what motivates you? What frustrates you?
Because if I know what their values are,
(11:09):
I know if it's a good position forthem because we do need all different
personalities. That's whatmakes a business good.
You need that really outgoing person.You need that really analytical person.
You need all those differentmakeups to make it good.
And so being able to ask those questionsand make sure that they're a good fit,
not only for that position,but then for your culture,
(11:30):
I think is really important.
Two questions here. I want to know whatwe're looking for in a candidate from a,
well, we'll stop there. And then two,
I want to talk about how doyou flush that out with them?
One thing you ask people and then theygive you the answer they think you want
to know, and then there's other waysto really draw out the real truth,
the thing behind the thing.
(11:50):
So what have you guys foundthat works in those kinds of.
Well, I've got a couplequestions that I really like,
and my favorite question to ask in aninterview is, on a scale of one to 10,
how would you rate your luck in life?
And this really paints apicture of their optimism versus
pessimism.
Or maybe they have a standpoint in lifewhere they play the victim card and we
(12:12):
don't want to hire those people.We want really optimistic people.
If you're answering thatat less than an eight,
a red flag is poppingup in my mind for sure.
And then secondarily,
what I really like to ask is what madeyou apply for our company specifically
not to be a window cleaner, not toclean roof, not to pressure wash,
but what made you apply toour company specifically?
(12:33):
And this will really give you a goodanswer if they were drawn to the company
culture, if it was the pay,you don't want it to be, Hey,
I saw that you guys were paying $25an hour plus tips. It's like, oh,
I don't want you here because youwant to make good money. I mean,
I want you to make good money.I want you to do well in life,
but that's not why I want you here. Iwant you to be a part of something bigger.
I want you to be a part of this team.
(12:54):
So those are the questions that Itry and really ask are ones that
identify their traits,
see if they have the soft skillsover the hard skills and see, hey,
are you going to be a reallygood mesh with our company?
Are you going to addto our company culture?
Yeah, we ask similar kind of why us?
And a lot of times I'm hiring youngerindividuals maybe right out of high
(13:16):
school. And so that canbe a very interesting,
they don't know what they want to do andthey're just trying to figure it out.
And what drew you to us?What drew you to plumbing?
And making sure that it's a fitnot just for plumbing industry,
but we're in a smaller community.
I want to know that they wantto be in that smaller community,
stay in that smaller community.
(13:36):
And I'm not just training them to thengo on to some of the big companies an
hour away.
My favorite question to a technicianwho currently works here is why.
And so I like to ask that same questionto people I'm interviewing, oh,
I quit that job last month. Why?Well, I didn't really quit. Well,
it just wasn't really working out.What do you mean by that? Well,
(13:57):
they fired me. If you just say,oh, he quit and you just move on.
But asking why this helpsyou flush out so many things,
it shows that they're articulate andthey can actually explain things in a
coherent way.
And that's actually helpful becauseyou're going to need them to do that when
they work here. So you need tomake sure they can do that. Now,
you also want to make surewhat they say is true.
You want to make sure what they sayaligns up with reality lines up with what
(14:19):
they've said in the past. And wait,earlier you said you went to Ohio,
but then you said Texas.Well, what? Right.
Let's get to the truth here becauseI find that there's a lot of BS in
interviews. You guys know this, andit's not necessarily with ill intent.
It's just people have a lotof baggage. People have,
a lot of people have lived life and lifeis best, and you need to get to that.
(14:40):
You need to find outwhat's really going on.
And Y also helps you find the reallygood candidates if they answer all your Y
questions really solid andyou've got a great candidate.
Yeah, I'd say another reallybig one too for me is asking,
Hey, what's really importantin the next job that you get,
whether it's here or somewhereelse? That's a good question.
And what I really want to hear a lotof the time when I ask that question is
(15:01):
that I want chances for development andI want learning opportunities because
that means that you have a really goodchance at being with us for a long time.
People that want to develop, I wantyou on my team. If you want to learn,
I want you on my team.
Those are the people that are going tohelp grow the business because at the end
of the day, in a home servicebusiness, your business is your people.
And if you ever get to a pointwhere you have got, let's say,
(15:21):
10 technicians and no one's got managerialskills because you didn't hire people
that wanted to learn and wanted to advanceand wanted to growth in the company,
well, guess what? The owner you'regetting called back in, right?
You're getting calledback into the office.
You're getting called back into the truck,
which is going to not be great for thegrowth of your business or the overall
health of your business. So I wantpeople that want to take that next step.
They want to learn new skills.They want to develop themselves.
(15:44):
We really work on developingrelationships too with trade schools
and the high school like teched teachers and those people
because someone will put referencesdown for a job and you know what you're
going to get when youcall those references.
But being able to have other peoplethat know them well and have that
(16:05):
source of truth that you canfind out and potentially find
good people that way, that's somethingthat we do that is pretty successful.
Being able to drill down on isthis person really a good fit?
I love references.
I think references are one of the mostoverlooked things in business because
half the time people weed themselvesout just by the references They give me,
(16:29):
someone say, yeah, he's all right.Just all right. Yeah, he's good.
Well, he did the job and they'retrying to avoid the real thing,
which they weren't very good.So I love calling references.
I think they're so effective. Itdoesn't mean they're a good candidate,
but you can instantly weed outbad candidates by references.
I'm a huge fan of references. Well,
I'm going to pause this great conversationfor a minute to talk about jobber,
(16:50):
guys. We know that Jobber helps usactually recruit and maintain top talent.
How has it helped you maintainand keep really good people?
Because some of the featuresthat Jobber has, Megan?
Yeah,
the scheduling just for all of myplumbers can see the night before what
they're getting into for the nextday. They know we live in Wisconsin,
so it's cold. They can know ifthey're outside, if they're inside,
(17:12):
if they need to be dressedaccordingly. That just really,
really helps them know whatthe day's going to bring.
Yeah, people hate being like in thetext the morning of, Hey, go drive here.
Here's the address, and do this.Jobber makes it so much better.
I'm a huge fan of jobbertips. It's an amazing feature.
Every year our techniciansbring in around $20,000 in
(17:33):
tips through those online payments,
not to mention everythingthey collect in cash,
which is great for them because now ourtechnicians are working harder to earn
that tip. We're making happyclients. It's an amazing tool.
Our guys make a couple hundred dollarsa week from the tips. It's amazing,
right?
Oh yeah.
It's awesome.
You need to start using jobber today forbetter scheduling for your technicians
(17:54):
and the tips.
Go to jobber.com/podcast deal anexclusive discount and start using jobber
today. Are you guys familiar withthe team player model? Patrick Lin,
the three ideal team player,the ideal team player.
Patrick Osh wrote this book about it,
and it's basically like they needto be humble, hungry, and smart.
Humble means they don't have anego. They take feedback well,
(18:19):
they're easy to work with. Well,team players easy to work with,
and then hungry means they're eager tomake money to learn to advance their
career. They'll staylate, they'll come early,
they'll do whatever it needsto be done to be successful.
And then smart is like this eq, softskills. Can they read the room well?
Do they understand when a clientis actually not very happy,
(18:40):
but they're pretending to be?
Do they know when they just need togive their coworker just five minutes of
time? Do they talk too much?
Do they just have these softskills that are just easy?
And ultimately the team players,people who they just like
people that you like.
So I'm looking for those threecharacteristics in an interview.
Any other characteristicsthat you guys are looking for?
(19:02):
I think those are great,and maybe you just said it,
but I think one of thequestions that we ask,
which will reveal a traitif they have it or not,
what would you like topersonally get better at,
whether it's professionally or personally?
And if people can give you a straightup answer to something that they're
actually an area in life orbusiness that they're weak in,
(19:22):
then that means that they can lookinto themselves and they can better
themselves, which means thatthey're going to be coachable,
which is someone that youwant at your business.
So I don't want to bring onsomeone that says, oh, no,
I think I'm doing great ateverything. I'm really good at this.
I'm really good at that. I wantto hear what your weaknesses are.
I want to know that youcan identify, yeah, yeah,
you have self-awareness and so thatyou can actually improve in certain
(19:44):
areas.
So the next I want to talk aboutis do you hire with experience?
And this can be very differentbecause Megan is hiring for
plumbing is a very high skilledthing for the most part.
And pressure washing gutters notas high skill, don't need licenses,
that kind of stuff. So thereare different businesses.
(20:04):
I'm curious how you guys answerthis, but let's go ahead, Megan.
Do you hire solely on experience?
No.
I would love to be able to hireexperienced journeyman master
plumbers and just find those all over you.
A shortage are not around.
So that is where we've hadsuccess growing our own.
(20:26):
So that's why I really invest in themiddle schools, the high schools,
the trade schools,
finding younger individuals ordoesn't always have to be younger.
Maybe it's from a different background,
but being able to findsomebody who's good that way,
and then we train them and we don'thave to also train people out of bad
habits too. We can train themour way. And so plumbing, I mean,
(20:48):
it's five-year apprenticeshipto sit for your journeyman exam.
It's a commitment on ourpart and on their part.
Use commitment.
We want to make sure it's a good fit.
So we have had the most successtraining your own people,
but we've been lucky and foundsome already skilled people.
So you have to be open to finding whatever
(21:09):
talent you can, I think,to be able to grow that.
And I think when I'mhiring younger individuals,
the thing that I have to be reallyconscious of is these are 18-year-old kids
a lot of times, and you have to givethem grace to be able to mature.
They're going to make mistakes, documentit, have the conversation with them,
and have the follow-up plan sothat it doesn't get out of control.
(21:33):
And you can decide if theystill are a good fit or not.
But when you're dealingwith younger individuals,
there's just a lot of maturitythat has to happen there.
I'm actually surprised to hear that inplumbing that it's gotten to that point
as well where, hey,
we're taking people that are core valuefits and that we see want to learn how
to do this, and that's amazing.So we're in the same boat.
(21:55):
I don't don't think I've ever hiredanyone that's had prior window cleaning
experience,
maybe one technician over the yearsbecause I'm looking for the soft skills.
I don't care how wellyou can clean a window.
I don't care how well how manygutters you say that you've cleaned,
anyone can learn how to do that. Ifyou've got a good training program,
if you've got the SOPs,take it a step further.
If you have someone in your businessthat is a lead technician or maybe a
(22:16):
production manager or a hybridbetween the two, even better.
You can train peoplehow to do these things,
but the longevity that you're going toget is going to come from are they a core
value match? Do we like them? Dothey have chemistry with the team,
or do we have chances todevelop them as human beings?
So that's who we're really looking for.
Experience is probably thelast thing that we look for.
(22:40):
I wouldn't even say it's onthe list of requirements or
expectations for people applyingto Mount Baker window cleaning.
The thing is,
out of all the things we want ourpeople to have out of all the different
characteristics, experience isthe only thing we can give them.
We can help them develop softskills, but at the end of the day,
(23:01):
that's up to them. Butwe can give experience.
And so that's really thelast thing. Like you said,
it should be the last thing on thelist in my view for most jobs is like,
Hey, I can give you the skills.I can give you experience.
That's the only I can, but Ineed you to be a hard worker.
I need you to have a good attitude.I need people to like you.
Can you do that because you can wrestlewith them, but at the end of the day,
(23:21):
they have to decide for themselves thatthey're going to have those kind of
characteristics.
I think it plagues a lot of homeservice businesses because I do
believe that a lot of homeservice business owners have it backwards where they
do hire for the hard skillsbecause maybe they're in a
pinch and they need to get someonethat week in that knows how to do that
(23:42):
certain trade. And then they endup saying down the road, Hey,
this guy's really goodat doing the actual work,
but he's got a terribleattitude. And you're right.
You cannot train those soft skills.You cannot train someone for attitude.
You can absolutely train the hard skillsas long as you have those systems in
place and you're a good leader.
So what ends up happening is that yourcompany is built up of what we would
(24:04):
call a maverick,
which is someone that doesn't reallycare about the vision of the company,
it's all.
About them.
They're not a core value fit.Maybe they don't follow the SOPs,
they do things their own way.
And then you end up with a dysfunctionalcompany because you have these people
that, yeah, they're verygood at the technical skills,
but they're not bought into anything else.
And so what I like tostart with is getting,
(24:26):
it's a completely differentsquadrant of this square.
If we can just imagine a square here,the maverick being in the top left,
you've got a loyal worker. So this issomeone who comes into your business,
they identify with yourmission, with your values,
and you coach them up.
You teach them the technical skills andcan turn them into what we would call a
(24:47):
rockstar. And that's what youwant to comprise your business of.
So everyone's going tostart as a loyal worker,
as long as you can find someone thatis on board with what you're trying to
create, with what you're trying tobuild. They like you as a leader.
You can coach them up tobe very good technically.
Yeah.
So talking about hiring throughthe lens of our listeners who
(25:09):
are really needing to hire people.
We've gotten them to the pointwhere they know what to look for,
but now where do theylook? Are we on Indeed?
Where are you finding employees? That'sa big hangup for people. Do they just,
Craigslist is still a thingnow. What do you guys think?
We do a lot of Facebook ads. And honestly,because we're in a smaller community,
(25:32):
I am hiring people that Iknow through contacts that I
know from these trade schools that I knowfrom the high schools that I know I'm
getting names that way.
Some of my most successful hires havebeen cold calls that I have just, Hey,
heard you just graduated tech school,heard you didn't want to do that.
You want to do plumbing? Have you everthought about it? Come job shadow.
(25:54):
See what you think. So Ithink just being open to,
honestly out in the community, if there'ssomeone you see that is a rockstar,
I don't know, a waiter, maybe theydon't want to be a waiter forever,
it's okay to ask people, Hey,have you ever thought about this?
You might be surprised. Youmight find someone really good.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think that when we goto Indeed or Craigslist,
(26:19):
a couple of things are happening. One,
you're casting this huge net overa massive area to try and find a
needle in a haystack.And then secondarily,
you're looking for people that are alreadyunemployed. Why are they unemployed?
Why don't you have a job? Howlong have you been unemployed?
So we're not reallylooking in the right place,
and we're going very deep into that zone.
(26:40):
So I'll just give you an example.When I started the business,
I knew that I had thisoutdoor recreation culture,
and I needed to learn myself how to geton roofs and how to rope up and clean
gutters on technical homes.So I went to the Rock gym,
the rock climbing gym in myarea, and I put a job ad there.
You like playing at heights, you likeworking at Heights. Come work for me.
(27:02):
Guess what? I hired a couple of rockclimbers. They were awesome with ropes.
They taught me how to rope upon a roof. So I went directly,
I knew who I wanted to hire, and Iwent directly to them. So how do we,
instead of casting this huge netover our entire service area,
how do we just direct our job ads and our
(27:23):
efforts towards the people that weknow we want to work in our companies?
And then you're going to havea much higher success rate.
You're going to go through less resumes,you're going to have less interviews,
and you're going to find better people.And then I guess to add to that too,
because we don't necessarily want tobe looking in places where we just have
this huge unemployment pool.
(27:45):
We want our brand tospeak to people that maybe
already have jobs and they're looking toswitch careers. Just like you've said,
you've outreached to people working in it.
Just different.
In a different industry, differentarea, a different industry.
So how do we construct oursocial media to showcase
what fun our employees arehaving at work, outside of work,
(28:09):
just to showcase this incrediblecompany culture that we've built?
And if you can continuously do that,
people are going to start tohave awareness of your brand,
and they're going to start to reach outto you without even you having to put on
a job ad. They're like, Hey,
I've been looking at yourcompany for a few years now,
and I've really wanted to come. We hadthis kid this year come apply for a job.
He said, do you remember me? Isaid, not really. He's like, yeah,
(28:30):
I was here last year, but youtold me that I was too young,
but I've been waiting to apply at yourcompany. That's cool. And I'm like, man,
you're hired.
How old are you.
Now? Yeah, you're here. So yeah,
plenty of things that you can do,
but just don't be putting generic jobads into this and casting this huge net
because you're going to get frustrated.There's no one good out here.
(28:52):
You've sifted through 200 resumesand none of them are good. Well,
you don't even know who youwant working at your company.
So if you haven't figuredthat out yet, well,
how are you going to directlytarget them? Well, you're not.
And if you have good company cultureand you have good people already,
your current employees are going tobe your best ads, your best job ads.
They are the ones that can actuallytell people, you know what?
(29:14):
It is really great here.I really do like my job.
I really do like what I'm doing. So ifyou're treating your current employees,
they're also the ones. If theyknow you're looking for people,
they're going to be able to talk to whothey know and who they know and who they
know, and it spreads and you'll getthe right people coming back to you.
I think that if people spent oras aggressive recruiting as they
(29:37):
were by getting new leads, they'dprobably be a lot better recruiting.
But we're not. We spend a hundredpercent of our effort getting leads,
and then we throw some timeat recruiting and we think,
why aren't we successful? Well,
you wouldn't get any leads for new workif you gave it the same effort that
you're giving new hires. Sohow about you mess it up?
It's true. It's so true. And honestly,
(29:59):
the people that you bring into yourteam are going to be more important than
those.
If you get five leads for a candidateto join your company for a technician
role, it's going to be way more importantthan five leads for washing a house or
whatever your industry is.
Well, guys, this is a great conversation.
I'm going to boil it downto three actual items here.
Number one is create acompelling job description.
(30:21):
Have the three-year vision in there.Make sure that people know how they.
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