October 23, 2025 • 19 mins
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Sometimes an interview fires us up so much here at Math Therapy HQ, that we end up debriefing and debating it long after the guest has signed off - at which point producer David says to host Vanessa "we should have recorded THAT too!"
So today, we actually did! We kept the mics rolling after interviewing last week's guest, Dr. Raj Shah, resulting in a discussion on the mechanics of memory & aptitude and a spirited debate as David pushed back against Vanessa's war on the words "natural ability".
We would LOVE to have an expert in this field on the podcast, so if you have any suggestions let us know!
And we want to know what you think as well - are some people born better at some things than others?! Let us know below!
Episodes referenced:
- Why math sucks and how to fix it w/ Raj Shah
- Math ed needs more conversations like this w/ Pam Harris
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:00):
Okay.
(00:00):
We just finished interviewingDr.
Raj Shah and we're gonna do alittle debrief David is
fidgeting around with shit rightnow.
David Kochberg (00:06):
You know, just producing myself now.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:07):
How, what, just start sharing your
thoughts.
Like what did you think?
David Kochberg (00:12):
My own thoughts.
What about, look at the stand Igot going on here.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:14):
What about the thought of him singing John
Legend, you like.
You said something crazyhappened in his face, in his
eyes, in his head region.
David Kochberg (00:22):
Oh yeah, we were talking about memories.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:24):
Yeah.
Maybe let's even back it upbecause part of the thing is we
were talking about memory andsomething I've always noticed
with you, we have a verydifferent skillset.
What's going on?
David Kochberg (00:32):
Well, we don't need these headphones at this
point.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:34):
Oh, well I'm,
David Kochberg (00:34):
you can't hear yourself anyways, right.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:35):
I'm monitoring myself.
David Kochberg (00:37):
Oh man, you're a pro.
Look at you.
I've trained you well, but Well,I don't need
Vanessa Vakharia (00:40):
to, I guess.
No, do
David Kochberg (00:41):
it.
Keep it, keep it going.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:42):
the thing is with David is I've always said
David is one of the smartestpeople I know.
He might be these, oh, I canmonitor
David Kochberg (00:47):
myself.
Keep going.
David,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:48):
stop.
I honestly don't have this muchtime.
David Kochberg (00:50):
No, no.
You continue complimenting mewhile I,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:53):
okay.
So anyways.
I mean, I think the reason Ithink David, actually, that's a
whole other conversation we'renot gonna get into right now,
but like I do think he'sbrilliant using Raj's words, Dr.
Shah's words.
But what's really interesting isDavid and I are in a band
together, as you well know, I amvery good at memorizing lyrics.
Like I just, I can memorize themlike right before a show.
Like it's just something that Ican do.
(01:14):
Whereas David.
Sometimes just forgets thelyrics to our own songs.
But David remembers everything.
Like I'll bring up like any TVshow or movie we watch, he'll be
like, oh, that actor's likeblah, blah, blah.
From that movie from like 19fucking 98.
Like he remembers all thisstuff.
And so this whole conversationwith Raj made me think like,
(01:35):
why?
Like why can you remember all ofthose things?
But you can't remember a songlyric?
David Kochberg (01:40):
That's a great question.
I don't know the answer.
But it's also completelydifferent things because Yeah,
but you remembering think thissong lyric
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
could be so much easier.
'cause you have so muchcontextual information.
Like you've got, like, you'vegot the lyrics that come before
the lyrics, after things rhyme.
Like you've got music.
Like,
David Kochberg (01:57):
but memorizing something like a, like a song or
a poem or a speech or something,like that's a, big chunk of
information to commit to memory,is different than having
individual memories or orstoring facts in your brain.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:12):
Okay.
Storing, well, like if
David Kochberg (02:14):
I've watched a movie years ago and it left an
impression on me, and I createthese associations between
different movies by the samedirector or if I know what actor
has been in different movies.
Those things.
Yeah.
I'm making emotional, I guess,like kind of what we were
talking about, like I'm makingemotional connections because
it's something that I'minterested in.
(02:35):
A band or music, like knowingall these facts.
What connects those facts tolong-term storage in my brain is
some emotional connection.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:44):
Need to.
Guess, but it's like, how manytimes have I learned who like
the drummer of a particular bandis?
David Kochberg (02:50):
Hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:50):
And it's like I jump,
David Kochberg (02:52):
why?
Yeah.
Why does that not get retainmemory?
I can, it does not
Vanessa Vakharia (02:54):
say in my memory.
Like, but
David Kochberg (02:56):
this gets to my other point that I was saying,
which is why we're on the michere.
Which is that after Pam'spodcast?
Well, kind of, yeah, because I,I think this whole idea, this
controversial discussion about,do different people have
different natural aptitudes?
That idea?
'cause Yes, we were talkingbriefly after Pam's, because
(03:19):
that was a hot take that shedropped.
and I mean, she did agree thatthere's no math gene, so I think
it's like every, everyone'sbasically on the same page.
But I think the idea that somepeople have a natural aptitude
towards different things.
I don't think that that initself is a negative or limiting
thing.
(03:39):
I think it's that that can thenbe amplified into a limiting
thing where kids can get themessage that they can't overcome
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:47):
Mm.
I think I just need, like, Ijust, I need to talk to a
neuroscientist or somethingbecause I feel like
David Kochberg (03:55):
not just me
Vanessa Vakharia (03:57):
like it, because I mean, I just feel like
every time I talk about thiswith a neuroscientist or
brain-based learning specialist,the idea, well, it's not that
you're wrong, but they wouldsay, like, from what I've heard,
the, I, it's, it's such a smallpercentage of people that
actually have these like quoteunquote inclinations, but I'm
(04:17):
only, I, I don't know, I feellike, but is it, that's the, I
don't know.
David Kochberg (04:21):
and and the other thing is I think everybody
probably comes at this debatefrom their own personal
perspective'cause how can younot?
So it's very subjective, but, sowhat I was gonna say, because
you were talking with Raj about,you guys had talked about
drawing and or being good atart, being good at drawing.
So if I think of myself and myskills, many of which you noted,
(04:42):
thank you very much.
But yeah, drawing is not one ofmy skills.
Now look, I took art classeswhen I was a kid.
And I loved art, but at no pointin my life, like I could draw I
mean, still at this point, likean a ridiculously childish
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlecartoon.
His handwritten actually notvery great either.
(05:03):
I'll be honest.
Yeah, I know.
Honest.
But so yeah, my, my ability.
I would never, I, I don't thinkthat I have a natural ability
for drawing at all.
Whereas I, I feel like I've metpeople who've had no training in
drawing, like you, have you everbeen, have you ever taken
lessons or like learned how todraw?
'Cause I've seen you draw orpaint before and you're really
(05:25):
good and I
Vanessa Vakharia (05:26):
It's true, but, okay.
Is it like,
David Kochberg (05:28):
is that something that you ever learned?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Um, I've taken art class, I took art classes
and stuff when I was younger.
Like I always liked drawing.
I, I see, this is the thing'cause it's like I have a
million questions for you thenwhere you're like, I, at no
point was I ever good atdrawing.
I would be like, how much ofyour free time when you were
younger did you spend drawingversus doing other things?
Did you spend a lot of timedrawing or did you only draw in
(05:49):
art classes?
Did you spend, like, I think mypoint is, but
David Kochberg (05:53):
did you spend a lot of time drawing?
Yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (05:55):
a lot.
I loved drawing.
That's like what?
Like one of the things I did alot, I drew a lot.
I doodled, I like, I did take,it's not like I was taking like
professional art classes, but Iwas always actually in some sort
of art thing and like I, I also,like, I had a sketchbook and
like, you know, I was like thisemo kid, so I was always like
making all these drawings andsketches and because I had ADHD
that was my way of focusing inthe classroom.
I always drew while the teacherwas talking.
(06:17):
I've always done that.
So like, it was something Ispent a lot of time doing.
I would, I would also argue, Ithink one of the reasons this is
such a hard discussion is wecannot test it.
Because we can't put two babies,like I was always like, if we
could put two BA babies in, likeon a desert island or like in a
box, like I would never do this,with no context, then we could
tell we can't parse away.
(06:39):
This is like what Dr.
Sarah McKay said.
In a way, it's like you can'treally remove, uh, the way
someone is from the experiencesand the environments they've
had.
And you can't just say, well,two, we both grew up in the same
household.
Because even if you both grew upin the same household, you
watched different shows, haddifferent friends, people said
different things to you, mayhave been treated differently
based on kids get treateddifferently based on a
(07:02):
perception of naturalinclination.
Like a parent will be like, oh,he was counting his toes, he
must, I'm gonna buy him Legolike, oh, she was doing this.
I'm gonna buy, like, I'm justsaying there's so many factors.
It's really hard to say, wereyou born with a natural
inclination?
How could we test that?
Yeah.
They've done these studies withtwins, by the way.
Yeah.
They've done these, thesestudies with twins who like
(07:24):
we're raised by completelydifferent people like this, that
the other thing.
Yeah.
And they've turned out complete.
But again, you're not sayingthat.
You're saying Yes, I guess.
Well,
David Kochberg (07:32):
so what I'm saying is that I wonder about
this conversation is once again,just like what you were
discussing with Pam, when peopledebate this stuff, how much of
it is really just coming down tosemantics.
Where when I'm saying a kidmight have a natural aptitude,
(07:53):
or a natural inclination, I'mkind of using those words
interchangeably and I'm, and my,I'm using them to say, what is
it that draws a kid tosomething?
And I feel like it's a naturalaffinity towards something like
a kid.
Just like you're saying, youwere drawn to drawing.
(08:16):
Pun.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:16):
But I, no pun intended, but I can't say that.
I can't say that's why.
Like what do you mean?
I was drawn to,
David Kochberg (08:20):
you used that example of drawing and saying,
when I was saying that I didn'tspend that much time drawing, so
that's probably why I'm not agood artist.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:27):
It could be one reason.
David Kochberg (08:28):
Yeah, one.
But you're saying by comparison.
'cause I had noted that you aregood at it, but it weren't like
trained.
But you were saying you justspent, this is more than 10,000
hours thing, like you just spentway more time drawing.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
So I wasn't allowed to watch tv.
David Kochberg (08:42):
Oh, well I spent a lot of time watching tv,
Vanessa Vakharia (08:43):
but, so this is what I mean, it's like what's
a natural inclination there Isthis not, I wasn't allowed to
watch tv, so I had a lot moretime on my hands,
David Kochberg (08:50):
but I've never been drawn to expressing myself
through drawing, whereas.
Like May, maybe it's'cause Ididn't discover that.
Maybe if we had both discoveredthat, oh, you could process your
feelings through drawings.
Maybe if we did that at the sametime.
Or maybe, maybe I
Vanessa Vakharia (09:03):
saw someone do it and I was really taken by
that.
Like maybe I literally walkeddown the street during a fair
and saw a caricature artist.
Like we're influenced by allthese tiny, and maybe that got
me interested in it.
David Kochberg (09:13):
Yeah.
But I feel like both things canbe true at once.
No, but you're
Vanessa Vakharia (09:16):
saying natural inclination, which implies ner
nature because.
David Kochberg (09:20):
And that's why I just don't think it's such a bad
thing to say that because, butit is.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:24):
If you, you're but, but you and I
David Kochberg (09:25):
are different people.
Every single person is a uniquesnowflake and has.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:28):
Yeah, but the difference is if you're saying
someone's born that way or not,if you're not saying that, which
it turned out Pam was notsaying, then I can get on board.
If you're like, yes, we developdifferent inclinations based on
environment and experience.
I'm down with you.
If you're saying people are justborn with different, talents and
inclinations towards things, Iam just not convinced.
(09:48):
And I think it's problematicbecause then we get into being
like some people are born betterat things than others.
And then, I don't
David Kochberg (09:57):
know, but that's a value judgment that that then
is being placed.
And I feel like it is beingplaced in, in a, through no
fault of your own, but like Ifeel like that is, is coming
from like a defensive placebecause you are overall trying
to combat traumas and anxietiesaround math that kids really for
sure go through.
(10:17):
But I feel like it doesn't haveto be like the pendulum swinging
all the way to the other end ofthe extreme, because you hear, I
mean obviously I don't havekids, but like lots of my
friends have kids and like Ioften hear parents talking about
their kids and can say theirpersonality was evident from
when they were a kid.
(10:37):
So that's the thing is yeah,some things about us, like you
can say, I know I think of, onefamily, like two friends of mine
who have four kids and all fourkids are wildly different.
Right.
And I mean, I don't, I don'tknow their entire kid's life
story, but like, think wheretheres no I what you're saying,
but there's where there, uh, Twoof the kids are extremely
(10:57):
outgoing.
Like one kid is, uh, insanelyoutgoing.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:00):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (11:01):
And just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And then one kid is so shy andintroverted.
Now, I don't know, maybe there'slike reason, I don't know the
kids that well, but like maybethere's reasons that they, maybe
in relation to one another, butlike through their whole lives
as I've known these, these kids,like seen them like every year.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:19):
How old is the introverted one versus the other
one?
David Kochberg (11:22):
Younger, a few years younger.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:24):
Okay, so can you, couldn't it, but how much
couldn't it be that the louduncle, but like, I can remember
one takes up it, it has MA hasaffected the other one.
The other one's introvertedbecause they're under the
shadow.
Like the shadow of I anythingcould be.
Sure.
But, but that's, it's importantto be like, is it an
environmental thing or is itjust the way they were born?
That is important.
Yeah.
Because when you talk to peoplethis way, because what's gonna
(11:44):
happen is these parents verywell meaningly are gonna be
like, oh, you were always thisout.
You were always thisintroverted, whatever.
And people get it in their headsthat then they're born this way.
It's not that they can'tovercome it, but you know what,
that's my, like, I was born likethis, it's gonna be harder for
me to be extroverted and likedid like I, I know what you have
wrap.
But that's more of
David Kochberg (12:02):
like a messaging thing and that's,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:05):
well, and we also don't know if it's true.
once again, I think it comesdown to semantics where we are
sort of arguing semantics,because I think both are true.
I think I do think like natureis a thing, you're right.
I do think people are born incertain ways, but I don't think
that that means that they arenecessarily imprisoned by those
(12:25):
things.
They're not.
But I think that there arefundamental things that.
Are part of our personalities atbirth, even though we're little
babies.
I do think that there just areways that we are, it's just
like, just like physically, likeyou're born with a certain face.
Correct, correct.
And the face is totallydifferent from every other face.
So I think similarly,emotionally, intellectually,
(12:48):
you're gonna have a differentbrain than every single other
person.
And we do.
It's true.
Yeah.
But so then
David Kochberg (12:53):
I don't, I don't think of those as a, a prison,
but I think it's a startingpoint.
And then I hundred percent agreethat your environment and what
you're exposed to andopportunities and privileges or
lack of privileges and the wayand what teachers you encounter
and what if you've got ScrabbleLego representation and Oh yeah.
(13:14):
Like what you see on media.
Like for sure you're influencedby all of this stuff.
And so that's why, yeah, ofcourse.
I agree with your overallmessage and premise that it, so
yeah, I see, I see why it is amessage that you're fighting
against the idea that kids areborn a certain way and popped
out of the womb, as you say,being good or not good at math.
(13:36):
So I think it is just aninteresting complex,'cause it
can't be proven necessarily,exactly.
So it's an interestingphilosophical discussion, this
one.
Which is, is it something that'sso important to like, dispel or
like eliminate this concept thatkid could be born with a natural
affinity towards something moreso than another kid when, as
(13:59):
long as what you're fightingfor, ultimately, that we're
building education systems andsupports to teach kids that
regardless of how you're born,if you want to be, let's say,
quote unquote good at math, orif you want to like master math,
it doesn't matter if you aremore naturally inclined or not,
(14:20):
it's like, I dunno, just withdance, like if, think of some
kid, or skateboarding orsomething, like some kid might,
there's lots of kids out therewho love skateboarding and they
want to be the best skateboarderin the world, but you just see
them and they're like not thatgood.
Like they don't have, they don'tjust like hop on a skateboard
and instantly are awesome anddoing kick flips, whereas some
(14:44):
other kid has
Vanessa Vakharia (14:44):
never tried it before and they get on, he's
never tried and
David Kochberg (14:46):
they just jump on and they're like, oh, this is
easy.
Yeah.
But then I'd be like,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:48):
what other experiences do they have?
Do they play other sports?
Like what?
Like, yeah.
Look, I get what you're sayingand I think maybe at the end of
it is because we don't fullyknow, although I'm gonna do a
call out for if anyone has somethoughts about this, to please
send them in regardless.
It's the messaging around itthat I think we can both agree
on is the bigger issue.
It's like regardless, themessaging around it should be
(15:10):
like, okay, cool.
Maybe there's some differencesin the way, you know, our
affinities when we're born, butthey're so minor, this is what I
like to say, nature for the mostpart, the influence of nature on
our ability and aptitude is sominor compared to what nurture
can do, and I think that's themore important thing is like,
like you said, when you read aTipping Point by Malcolm
(15:31):
Gladwell, it's the 10,000 hoursthat vetoes any nurture.
Not in every case.
Yeah, and I agree there are,there are, you know, there's
obviously disability and someextreme differences, but like in
many cases, so we do have towrap this up because you have
another interview.
Oh, um, oh yeah.
Oh, four minutes.
Yeah.
But I wanna say this has been anexcellent debate with you, my
producer, and I'm very curiouswhat people think.
(15:52):
Oh, if there's someone you knowthat I can interview about this
that would be like an expert onthis, let me know if you have.
Thoughts about this yourself.
If you just wanna share youropinion or evidence or anecdotal
evidence, send them in becauseI'd like to continue this
discussion.
I think it's a very importantone, and we'd like to hear from
you.
You can text the podcast bygoing to the description of this
episode atmaththerapypodcast.com.
(16:15):
That's a lie.
Yes, it's not.
No, it's not.
You can go there.
You can text the podcast.
David Kochberg (16:18):
You can text the podcast in the description of
this episode in your podcastplayer.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:22):
Great.
Go do that.
Oh, any podcast player, it'll bethere.
David Kochberg (16:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
It's in the, the, like when wesay show notes, like it's in the
description of the episode,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:30):
it's in the description of the episode.
You can also email me, Vanessa,at themathguru.ca with a voice
note.
If you're comfortable with usplaying it on a future episode
of the podcast, that'd be great.
You can DM me on Instagram@themathguru.
Let us know what you think.
David Kochberg (16:41):
So many ways to get in touch.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:42):
How, what do you think of our discussion
here?
How much of our ability andaffinity comes from nature
versus nurture.
What do you think?
Does it even matter?
David Kochberg (16:51):
Yeah, the, the last thing I'll say, just'cause
I wanted to, okay.
Just'cause I want the last word,now all of a sudden I got a mic,
so, you know, the path feel ofpower is,'cause I also feel
like, I can't think of examples,but like there's lots of other
times in your work where you'resaying like, you're trying to
tell students that what they seeisn't the truth or something.
Where it's like this, likestudents might be complaining
(17:12):
about something in the, in theclass and you're like, no, no,
no, no, this is the way, orlike, this is, this is important
because of this or something,and then they're like, but this
is' what I'm observing.
I can't, it would be better if Ihad an example, but I don't at
the moment.
We're, we're, but I, I get whatyou're saying.
My point is like,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:28):
we don't wanna gaslight
David Kochberg (17:29):
a kid might feel.
They're in class, like a kidjust might feel in the moment,
like, my friend is getting thisstuff way faster than me, have a
natural ability.
And you could like try to belike, well, no, brain based
science says this and that, butto them they're just like.
It's hard for me.
It's not hard for them.
(17:50):
And I mean, I've even been asbrilliant as I am.
Like, I mean, I've talked wherepeople can listen to the other
class.
I mean, yeah, we can get thisanother time, but like I
remember in, in university therewere times in engineering class,
what, not engineering class, butlike in calculus first year I
had no idea what was going on.
And another friend of mine justgot it so quickly and to me I'm
like, yeah, I'm a smart guy, butthis guy, he just gets it
(18:11):
effortlessly.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:13):
But would it have helped you for someone to
have been like, oh, proven fact.
He has more natural ability thanyou?
No, no.
David Kochberg (18:18):
My point is that like I think he had a more
natural ability to just get thatconcept, but that didn't mean
that I couldn't get it.
It just mean I needed to do alittle bit more work to get it.
And so I think the point is forthe point I'm trying to make
ultimately is that, that for akid, I don't think it does them
any service to be like, we haveproven there's no difference
fundamentally in people'snatural ability because it
(18:41):
defies what they kind of observetheir experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:43):
I get it.
You think it helps them to belike, okay, well at least
there's a reason why I'm notgetting this
David Kochberg (18:47):
No, no, not necessarily.
I'm just, I think the focusshould be more on like, even if
there is slight difference inpeople's natural ability or
natural inclination, it doesn'tmatter that much because
everyone can learn the samestuff.
It just might take differentpaths for you to get there
instead of focusing on like, wemust dispel this myth that some
(19:09):
people have more of a naturalability, I think.
I think that that's moreimportant and also more in line
with like your overall work.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:17):
I'm gonna have to really think about this.
David Kochberg (19:19):
Yeah, no problem.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:19):
Cause I can see what you're'cause.
As I told Raj during ourepisode, one of my amazing
superpowers, one of my amazingsuperpowers is I can always see
both sides.
So I can see both sides.
I'm gonna have to sit with this.
David Kochberg (19:28):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:28):
Goodbye everyone.
We have an interview in twoseconds.
David Kochberg (19:30):
Let's wrap it.
Bye.
Goodbye.
Okay.
(00:00):
We just finished interviewingDr.
Raj Shah and we're gonna do alittle debrief David is
fidgeting around with shit rightnow.
David Kochberg (00:06):
You know, just producing myself now.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:07):
How, what, just start sharing your
thoughts.
Like what did you think?
David Kochberg (00:12):
My own thoughts.
What about, look at the stand Igot going on here.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:14):
What about the thought of him singing John
Legend, you like.
You said something crazyhappened in his face, in his
eyes, in his head region.
David Kochberg (00:22):
Oh yeah, we were talking about memories.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:24):
Yeah.
Maybe let's even back it upbecause part of the thing is we
were talking about memory andsomething I've always noticed
with you, we have a verydifferent skillset.
What's going on?
David Kochberg (00:32):
Well, we don't need these headphones at this
point.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:34):
Oh, well I'm,
David Kochberg (00:34):
you can't hear yourself anyways, right.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:35):
I'm monitoring myself.
David Kochberg (00:37):
Oh man, you're a pro.
Look at you.
I've trained you well, but Well,I don't need
Vanessa Vakharia (00:40):
to, I guess.
No, do
David Kochberg (00:41):
it.
Keep it, keep it going.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:42):
the thing is with David is I've always said
David is one of the smartestpeople I know.
He might be these, oh, I canmonitor
David Kochberg (00:47):
myself.
Keep going.
David,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:48):
stop.
I honestly don't have this muchtime.
David Kochberg (00:50):
No, no.
You continue complimenting mewhile I,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:53):
okay.
So anyways.
I mean, I think the reason Ithink David, actually, that's a
whole other conversation we'renot gonna get into right now,
but like I do think he'sbrilliant using Raj's words, Dr.
Shah's words.
But what's really interesting isDavid and I are in a band
together, as you well know, I amvery good at memorizing lyrics.
Like I just, I can memorize themlike right before a show.
Like it's just something that Ican do.
(01:14):
Whereas David.
Sometimes just forgets thelyrics to our own songs.
But David remembers everything.
Like I'll bring up like any TVshow or movie we watch, he'll be
like, oh, that actor's likeblah, blah, blah.
From that movie from like 19fucking 98.
Like he remembers all thisstuff.
And so this whole conversationwith Raj made me think like,
(01:35):
why?
Like why can you remember all ofthose things?
But you can't remember a songlyric?
David Kochberg (01:40):
That's a great question.
I don't know the answer.
But it's also completelydifferent things because Yeah,
but you remembering think thissong lyric
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
could be so much easier.
'cause you have so muchcontextual information.
Like you've got, like, you'vegot the lyrics that come before
the lyrics, after things rhyme.
Like you've got music.
Like,
David Kochberg (01:57):
but memorizing something like a, like a song or
a poem or a speech or something,like that's a, big chunk of
information to commit to memory,is different than having
individual memories or orstoring facts in your brain.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:12):
Okay.
Storing, well, like if
David Kochberg (02:14):
I've watched a movie years ago and it left an
impression on me, and I createthese associations between
different movies by the samedirector or if I know what actor
has been in different movies.
Those things.
Yeah.
I'm making emotional, I guess,like kind of what we were
talking about, like I'm makingemotional connections because
it's something that I'minterested in.
(02:35):
A band or music, like knowingall these facts.
What connects those facts tolong-term storage in my brain is
some emotional connection.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:44):
Need to.
Guess, but it's like, how manytimes have I learned who like
the drummer of a particular bandis?
David Kochberg (02:50):
Hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:50):
And it's like I jump,
David Kochberg (02:52):
why?
Yeah.
Why does that not get retainmemory?
I can, it does not
Vanessa Vakharia (02:54):
say in my memory.
Like, but
David Kochberg (02:56):
this gets to my other point that I was saying,
which is why we're on the michere.
Which is that after Pam'spodcast?
Well, kind of, yeah, because I,I think this whole idea, this
controversial discussion about,do different people have
different natural aptitudes?
That idea?
'cause Yes, we were talkingbriefly after Pam's, because
(03:19):
that was a hot take that shedropped.
and I mean, she did agree thatthere's no math gene, so I think
it's like every, everyone'sbasically on the same page.
But I think the idea that somepeople have a natural aptitude
towards different things.
I don't think that that initself is a negative or limiting
thing.
(03:39):
I think it's that that can thenbe amplified into a limiting
thing where kids can get themessage that they can't overcome
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:47):
Mm.
I think I just need, like, Ijust, I need to talk to a
neuroscientist or somethingbecause I feel like
David Kochberg (03:55):
not just me
Vanessa Vakharia (03:57):
like it, because I mean, I just feel like
every time I talk about thiswith a neuroscientist or
brain-based learning specialist,the idea, well, it's not that
you're wrong, but they wouldsay, like, from what I've heard,
the, I, it's, it's such a smallpercentage of people that
actually have these like quoteunquote inclinations, but I'm
(04:17):
only, I, I don't know, I feellike, but is it, that's the, I
don't know.
David Kochberg (04:21):
and and the other thing is I think everybody
probably comes at this debatefrom their own personal
perspective'cause how can younot?
So it's very subjective, but, sowhat I was gonna say, because
you were talking with Raj about,you guys had talked about
drawing and or being good atart, being good at drawing.
So if I think of myself and myskills, many of which you noted,
(04:42):
thank you very much.
But yeah, drawing is not one ofmy skills.
Now look, I took art classeswhen I was a kid.
And I loved art, but at no pointin my life, like I could draw I
mean, still at this point, likean a ridiculously childish
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlecartoon.
His handwritten actually notvery great either.
(05:03):
I'll be honest.
Yeah, I know.
Honest.
But so yeah, my, my ability.
I would never, I, I don't thinkthat I have a natural ability
for drawing at all.
Whereas I, I feel like I've metpeople who've had no training in
drawing, like you, have you everbeen, have you ever taken
lessons or like learned how todraw?
'Cause I've seen you draw orpaint before and you're really
(05:25):
good and I
Vanessa Vakharia (05:26):
It's true, but, okay.
Is it like,
David Kochberg (05:28):
is that something that you ever learned?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Um, I've taken art class, I took art classes
and stuff when I was younger.
Like I always liked drawing.
I, I see, this is the thing'cause it's like I have a
million questions for you thenwhere you're like, I, at no
point was I ever good atdrawing.
I would be like, how much ofyour free time when you were
younger did you spend drawingversus doing other things?
Did you spend a lot of timedrawing or did you only draw in
(05:49):
art classes?
Did you spend, like, I think mypoint is, but
David Kochberg (05:53):
did you spend a lot of time drawing?
Yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (05:55):
a lot.
I loved drawing.
That's like what?
Like one of the things I did alot, I drew a lot.
I doodled, I like, I did take,it's not like I was taking like
professional art classes, but Iwas always actually in some sort
of art thing and like I, I also,like, I had a sketchbook and
like, you know, I was like thisemo kid, so I was always like
making all these drawings andsketches and because I had ADHD
that was my way of focusing inthe classroom.
I always drew while the teacherwas talking.
(06:17):
I've always done that.
So like, it was something Ispent a lot of time doing.
I would, I would also argue, Ithink one of the reasons this is
such a hard discussion is wecannot test it.
Because we can't put two babies,like I was always like, if we
could put two BA babies in, likeon a desert island or like in a
box, like I would never do this,with no context, then we could
tell we can't parse away.
(06:39):
This is like what Dr.
Sarah McKay said.
In a way, it's like you can'treally remove, uh, the way
someone is from the experiencesand the environments they've
had.
And you can't just say, well,two, we both grew up in the same
household.
Because even if you both grew upin the same household, you
watched different shows, haddifferent friends, people said
different things to you, mayhave been treated differently
based on kids get treateddifferently based on a
(07:02):
perception of naturalinclination.
Like a parent will be like, oh,he was counting his toes, he
must, I'm gonna buy him Legolike, oh, she was doing this.
I'm gonna buy, like, I'm justsaying there's so many factors.
It's really hard to say, wereyou born with a natural
inclination?
How could we test that?
Yeah.
They've done these studies withtwins, by the way.
Yeah.
They've done these, thesestudies with twins who like
(07:24):
we're raised by completelydifferent people like this, that
the other thing.
Yeah.
And they've turned out complete.
But again, you're not sayingthat.
You're saying Yes, I guess.
Well,
David Kochberg (07:32):
so what I'm saying is that I wonder about
this conversation is once again,just like what you were
discussing with Pam, when peopledebate this stuff, how much of
it is really just coming down tosemantics.
Where when I'm saying a kidmight have a natural aptitude,
(07:53):
or a natural inclination, I'mkind of using those words
interchangeably and I'm, and my,I'm using them to say, what is
it that draws a kid tosomething?
And I feel like it's a naturalaffinity towards something like
a kid.
Just like you're saying, youwere drawn to drawing.
(08:16):
Pun.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:16):
But I, no pun intended, but I can't say that.
I can't say that's why.
Like what do you mean?
I was drawn to,
David Kochberg (08:20):
you used that example of drawing and saying,
when I was saying that I didn'tspend that much time drawing, so
that's probably why I'm not agood artist.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:27):
It could be one reason.
David Kochberg (08:28):
Yeah, one.
But you're saying by comparison.
'cause I had noted that you aregood at it, but it weren't like
trained.
But you were saying you justspent, this is more than 10,000
hours thing, like you just spentway more time drawing.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:39):
So I wasn't allowed to watch tv.
David Kochberg (08:42):
Oh, well I spent a lot of time watching tv,
Vanessa Vakharia (08:43):
but, so this is what I mean, it's like what's
a natural inclination there Isthis not, I wasn't allowed to
watch tv, so I had a lot moretime on my hands,
David Kochberg (08:50):
but I've never been drawn to expressing myself
through drawing, whereas.
Like May, maybe it's'cause Ididn't discover that.
Maybe if we had both discoveredthat, oh, you could process your
feelings through drawings.
Maybe if we did that at the sametime.
Or maybe, maybe I
Vanessa Vakharia (09:03):
saw someone do it and I was really taken by
that.
Like maybe I literally walkeddown the street during a fair
and saw a caricature artist.
Like we're influenced by allthese tiny, and maybe that got
me interested in it.
David Kochberg (09:13):
Yeah.
But I feel like both things canbe true at once.
No, but you're
Vanessa Vakharia (09:16):
saying natural inclination, which implies ner
nature because.
David Kochberg (09:20):
And that's why I just don't think it's such a bad
thing to say that because, butit is.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:24):
If you, you're but, but you and I
David Kochberg (09:25):
are different people.
Every single person is a uniquesnowflake and has.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:28):
Yeah, but the difference is if you're saying
someone's born that way or not,if you're not saying that, which
it turned out Pam was notsaying, then I can get on board.
If you're like, yes, we developdifferent inclinations based on
environment and experience.
I'm down with you.
If you're saying people are justborn with different, talents and
inclinations towards things, Iam just not convinced.
(09:48):
And I think it's problematicbecause then we get into being
like some people are born betterat things than others.
And then, I don't
David Kochberg (09:57):
know, but that's a value judgment that that then
is being placed.
And I feel like it is beingplaced in, in a, through no
fault of your own, but like Ifeel like that is, is coming
from like a defensive placebecause you are overall trying
to combat traumas and anxietiesaround math that kids really for
sure go through.
(10:17):
But I feel like it doesn't haveto be like the pendulum swinging
all the way to the other end ofthe extreme, because you hear, I
mean obviously I don't havekids, but like lots of my
friends have kids and like Ioften hear parents talking about
their kids and can say theirpersonality was evident from
when they were a kid.
(10:37):
So that's the thing is yeah,some things about us, like you
can say, I know I think of, onefamily, like two friends of mine
who have four kids and all fourkids are wildly different.
Right.
And I mean, I don't, I don'tknow their entire kid's life
story, but like, think wheretheres no I what you're saying,
but there's where there, uh, Twoof the kids are extremely
(10:57):
outgoing.
Like one kid is, uh, insanelyoutgoing.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:00):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (11:01):
And just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And then one kid is so shy andintroverted.
Now, I don't know, maybe there'slike reason, I don't know the
kids that well, but like maybethere's reasons that they, maybe
in relation to one another, butlike through their whole lives
as I've known these, these kids,like seen them like every year.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:19):
How old is the introverted one versus the other
one?
David Kochberg (11:22):
Younger, a few years younger.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:24):
Okay, so can you, couldn't it, but how much
couldn't it be that the louduncle, but like, I can remember
one takes up it, it has MA hasaffected the other one.
The other one's introvertedbecause they're under the
shadow.
Like the shadow of I anythingcould be.
Sure.
But, but that's, it's importantto be like, is it an
environmental thing or is itjust the way they were born?
That is important.
Yeah.
Because when you talk to peoplethis way, because what's gonna
(11:44):
happen is these parents verywell meaningly are gonna be
like, oh, you were always thisout.
You were always thisintroverted, whatever.
And people get it in their headsthat then they're born this way.
It's not that they can'tovercome it, but you know what,
that's my, like, I was born likethis, it's gonna be harder for
me to be extroverted and likedid like I, I know what you have
wrap.
But that's more of
David Kochberg (12:02):
like a messaging thing and that's,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:05):
well, and we also don't know if it's true.
once again, I think it comesdown to semantics where we are
sort of arguing semantics,because I think both are true.
I think I do think like natureis a thing, you're right.
I do think people are born incertain ways, but I don't think
that that means that they arenecessarily imprisoned by those
(12:25):
things.
They're not.
But I think that there arefundamental things that.
Are part of our personalities atbirth, even though we're little
babies.
I do think that there just areways that we are, it's just
like, just like physically, likeyou're born with a certain face.
Correct, correct.
And the face is totallydifferent from every other face.
So I think similarly,emotionally, intellectually,
(12:48):
you're gonna have a differentbrain than every single other
person.
And we do.
It's true.
Yeah.
But so then
David Kochberg (12:53):
I don't, I don't think of those as a, a prison,
but I think it's a startingpoint.
And then I hundred percent agreethat your environment and what
you're exposed to andopportunities and privileges or
lack of privileges and the wayand what teachers you encounter
and what if you've got ScrabbleLego representation and Oh yeah.
(13:14):
Like what you see on media.
Like for sure you're influencedby all of this stuff.
And so that's why, yeah, ofcourse.
I agree with your overallmessage and premise that it, so
yeah, I see, I see why it is amessage that you're fighting
against the idea that kids areborn a certain way and popped
out of the womb, as you say,being good or not good at math.
(13:36):
So I think it is just aninteresting complex,'cause it
can't be proven necessarily,exactly.
So it's an interestingphilosophical discussion, this
one.
Which is, is it something that'sso important to like, dispel or
like eliminate this concept thatkid could be born with a natural
affinity towards something moreso than another kid when, as
(13:59):
long as what you're fightingfor, ultimately, that we're
building education systems andsupports to teach kids that
regardless of how you're born,if you want to be, let's say,
quote unquote good at math, orif you want to like master math,
it doesn't matter if you aremore naturally inclined or not,
(14:20):
it's like, I dunno, just withdance, like if, think of some
kid, or skateboarding orsomething, like some kid might,
there's lots of kids out therewho love skateboarding and they
want to be the best skateboarderin the world, but you just see
them and they're like not thatgood.
Like they don't have, they don'tjust like hop on a skateboard
and instantly are awesome anddoing kick flips, whereas some
(14:44):
other kid has
Vanessa Vakharia (14:44):
never tried it before and they get on, he's
never tried and
David Kochberg (14:46):
they just jump on and they're like, oh, this is
easy.
Yeah.
But then I'd be like,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:48):
what other experiences do they have?
Do they play other sports?
Like what?
Like, yeah.
Look, I get what you're sayingand I think maybe at the end of
it is because we don't fullyknow, although I'm gonna do a
call out for if anyone has somethoughts about this, to please
send them in regardless.
It's the messaging around itthat I think we can both agree
on is the bigger issue.
It's like regardless, themessaging around it should be
(15:10):
like, okay, cool.
Maybe there's some differencesin the way, you know, our
affinities when we're born, butthey're so minor, this is what I
like to say, nature for the mostpart, the influence of nature on
our ability and aptitude is sominor compared to what nurture
can do, and I think that's themore important thing is like,
like you said, when you read aTipping Point by Malcolm
(15:31):
Gladwell, it's the 10,000 hoursthat vetoes any nurture.
Not in every case.
Yeah, and I agree there are,there are, you know, there's
obviously disability and someextreme differences, but like in
many cases, so we do have towrap this up because you have
another interview.
Oh, um, oh yeah.
Oh, four minutes.
Yeah.
But I wanna say this has been anexcellent debate with you, my
producer, and I'm very curiouswhat people think.
(15:52):
Oh, if there's someone you knowthat I can interview about this
that would be like an expert onthis, let me know if you have.
Thoughts about this yourself.
If you just wanna share youropinion or evidence or anecdotal
evidence, send them in becauseI'd like to continue this
discussion.
I think it's a very importantone, and we'd like to hear from
you.
You can text the podcast bygoing to the description of this
episode atmaththerapypodcast.com.
(16:15):
That's a lie.
Yes, it's not.
No, it's not.
You can go there.
You can text the podcast.
David Kochberg (16:18):
You can text the podcast in the description of
this episode in your podcastplayer.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:22):
Great.
Go do that.
Oh, any podcast player, it'll bethere.
David Kochberg (16:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
It's in the, the, like when wesay show notes, like it's in the
description of the episode,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:30):
it's in the description of the episode.
You can also email me, Vanessa,at themathguru.ca with a voice
note.
If you're comfortable with usplaying it on a future episode
of the podcast, that'd be great.
You can DM me on Instagram@themathguru.
Let us know what you think.
David Kochberg (16:41):
So many ways to get in touch.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:42):
How, what do you think of our discussion
here?
How much of our ability andaffinity comes from nature
versus nurture.
What do you think?
Does it even matter?
David Kochberg (16:51):
Yeah, the, the last thing I'll say, just'cause
I wanted to, okay.
Just'cause I want the last word,now all of a sudden I got a mic,
so, you know, the path feel ofpower is,'cause I also feel
like, I can't think of examples,but like there's lots of other
times in your work where you'resaying like, you're trying to
tell students that what they seeisn't the truth or something.
Where it's like this, likestudents might be complaining
(17:12):
about something in the, in theclass and you're like, no, no,
no, no, this is the way, orlike, this is, this is important
because of this or something,and then they're like, but this
is' what I'm observing.
I can't, it would be better if Ihad an example, but I don't at
the moment.
We're, we're, but I, I get whatyou're saying.
My point is like,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:28):
we don't wanna gaslight
David Kochberg (17:29):
a kid might feel.
They're in class, like a kidjust might feel in the moment,
like, my friend is getting thisstuff way faster than me, have a
natural ability.
And you could like try to belike, well, no, brain based
science says this and that, butto them they're just like.
It's hard for me.
It's not hard for them.
(17:50):
And I mean, I've even been asbrilliant as I am.
Like, I mean, I've talked wherepeople can listen to the other
class.
I mean, yeah, we can get thisanother time, but like I
remember in, in university therewere times in engineering class,
what, not engineering class, butlike in calculus first year I
had no idea what was going on.
And another friend of mine justgot it so quickly and to me I'm
like, yeah, I'm a smart guy, butthis guy, he just gets it
(18:11):
effortlessly.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:13):
But would it have helped you for someone to
have been like, oh, proven fact.
He has more natural ability thanyou?
No, no.
David Kochberg (18:18):
My point is that like I think he had a more
natural ability to just get thatconcept, but that didn't mean
that I couldn't get it.
It just mean I needed to do alittle bit more work to get it.
And so I think the point is forthe point I'm trying to make
ultimately is that, that for akid, I don't think it does them
any service to be like, we haveproven there's no difference
fundamentally in people'snatural ability because it
(18:41):
defies what they kind of observetheir experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:43):
I get it.
You think it helps them to belike, okay, well at least
there's a reason why I'm notgetting this
David Kochberg (18:47):
No, no, not necessarily.
I'm just, I think the focusshould be more on like, even if
there is slight difference inpeople's natural ability or
natural inclination, it doesn'tmatter that much because
everyone can learn the samestuff.
It just might take differentpaths for you to get there
instead of focusing on like, wemust dispel this myth that some
(19:09):
people have more of a naturalability, I think.
I think that that's moreimportant and also more in line
with like your overall work.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:17):
I'm gonna have to really think about this.
David Kochberg (19:19):
Yeah, no problem.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:19):
Cause I can see what you're'cause.
As I told Raj during ourepisode, one of my amazing
superpowers, one of my amazingsuperpowers is I can always see
both sides.
So I can see both sides.
I'm gonna have to sit with this.
David Kochberg (19:28):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:28):
Goodbye everyone.
We have an interview in twoseconds.
David Kochberg (19:30):
Let's wrap it.
Bye.
Goodbye.
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