November 14, 2024 • 35 mins
If you're a fan of the podcast, you've often heard Vanessa mention our producer "David" in reference to him getting mad at her for yelling into the mic or hitting the mic or generally doing things that impact the quality of this AUDIO medium. And if it isn't apparent, this is actually David typing, because I also handle publishing the episodes, so I'll stop referring to myself in the 3rd person because it's weird!
In September we released an episode in which I interviewed Vanessa about her career and about her new book Math Therapy, a resource for teachers to bring strategies in the classroom to help students build a better relationship with math. (After a little digitial mix-up, it is now shipping on Amazon/Kindle so go grab it!)
Afterwards, she decided to interview me about my own math journey, what I enjoy about working on the pod, and what I really think as an outsider about how intense the "math wars" debate has gotten.
About David:
In addition to producing/editing this podcast, I work as a mechanical engineer (3D CAD modelling and drafting) and play guitar & sing in the band Vanessa and I started in 2011, Goodnight Sunrise. I don't have any personal social media links but I'm usually the snarky one behind our Twitter, so connect with Vanessa at the usual places below!
- Vanessa Vakharia: @themathguru (Insta, Twitter, TikTok)
- Math Therapy: @maththerapy (Twitter)
- Math Therapy the book is out now - buy from Corwin Press or Amazon
- David interviews Vanessa (from September 2024)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:03):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:25):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so the fans have beenasking.
Who is this David, and how doeshe put up with you?
And if you're not a long timelistener, you might be like, who
is David?
And David, guys, is ourproducer.
Like you hear him in episode.
He'll pipe up when I'm talkingtoo loud, or my bracelets are
(00:48):
jingling, or when I saysomething that might get me
canceled.
He's the man behind MathTherapy.
And I thought it was time to gethim on the podcast.
This conversation was wild.
We talked about Joe Rogan.
We talked about how matheducation has been weaponized.
We talked about what David, whois not an educator, really
thinks about the"math wars".
Most importantly, though, wetalked about my new book for
(01:08):
like two minutes.
If you haven't heard it's calledMath Therapy.
it came out on September 2nd,Keanu Reeves' 60th birthday.
And it's finally available fororder, if you head to
maththerapy.com.
It's a book for teachers on howto help every single student
heal their math trauma in theirclassroom.
Anyways, you're not here forthat.
You are here for David, justlike I am.
(01:29):
So without further ado.
Let's get to it.
Okay guys, I know the fans ofthe pod have always wondered
about the man, the mystery, thelegend, the wizard of Oz, the
wizard of Math Therapy, DavidKochberg.
He is our producer.
He's my long time bestie.
He's my ex-boyfriend.
(01:50):
We're in a band together.
I know that you guys arewondering.
How do you make it work?
What is it like?
What is it like behind thescenes?
So I thought.
I would interview David, andthat's what we're going to do
today.
So David, welcome to thepodcast.
David Kochberg (02:07):
Vanessa, it is a delight and an honor to be here.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:11):
I just want you guys to know that before we
started even recording Davidstarted having a full panic
because he's like, well, I don'tknow what to do.
I'm not even in, I'm not incontrol.
I can't see the wave form on thescreen.
And, and, you know, I thinkthat's a really good segue into,
what is it like with us workingtogether, working with somebody,
David you, yourself, who is sucha perfectionist, so detail
(02:33):
oriented.
And you having me to produce,who is so not detail oriented.
What has it been like?
Let's start there.
David Kochberg (02:43):
It has been a learning curve, but as you
clearly, and in great detail,explained our entire history
together, we have gone through alot together.
So I know you very well, and Iknow how to work with you.
We'll have our little spats.
Uh, we'll have our little,
Vanessa Vakharia (03:03):
What do we fight about?
Like about what, what are wedisagreeing about during the
making of the podcast?
Run the fans through it.
David Kochberg (03:09):
Well, We have opposing forms of anxiety that
both annoy and compound on eachothers.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:18):
Sure.
David Kochberg (03:18):
So it's just a matter of us just going through
those motions before eachrecording session.
I get anxious about is it goingto sound good?
Is, I, is the room going to betoo echoey, is there going to be
some noise from outside that themic is going to pick up?
What's the lighting, all thisstuff.
You're sitting there freakingout about all the questions that
(03:40):
you're going to ask, or youdon't even know what questions
to ask but you've written athousand questions, and then
when we get to the interview,you don't ask any of them.
You then just end upchit-chatting and shooting the
shit with the guest.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:50):
First swear word on the podcast episode.
And it is from David Kochberg.
Okay.
So that's really, really good toknow.
Thank you so much.
I mean, I think what's reallyinteresting is you, so you get
roped into this podcast.
Can you take yourself back towhen we started this, which I
think was 2020, 1st season, fouryears ago.
What you were thinking when Iwas like, I want you to produce
(04:12):
a podcast called Math Therapy.
Like what, and I ask thisbecause you are not a math
teacher, right?
You're not a math educator,you're an engineer, which so
you're kind of in STEM.
David Kochberg (04:22):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:22):
But very different than being in the
education world.
What were you thinking at thattime about what the podcast was
going to be about?
And like, did you care?
Like, were you like, whatever,like I'll just produce something
or were you interested in theidea of math therapy?
David Kochberg (04:36):
Well, to be precise, I came on board after
you had already recorded thefirst season's interviews.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:44):
What?
Who produced it?
David Kochberg (04:46):
Well, you and Sabina started the podcast and
you had recorded all of theseepisodes, and then you needed
someone to edit them and turnthem into a podcast.
So then that's so yeah, Iwasn't, I wasn't involved in the
very early germination of theseed.
Seed is that a right analogy?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:05):
Obviously, I'm not going to know.
So, well, so when you startediting these episodes, what are
you thinking?
Like you're hearing thesestories.
What's going on.
David Kochberg (05:14):
From a technical standpoint, I was curious about
just, how does one edit apodcast?
And then, because we are in aband together and over the
years, I've gotten into a lot ofthe production, I have learned a
lot about audio editing andmixing and stuff like that.
So then that's why I thought,well, maybe I can try editing
(05:35):
this podcast.
And I edited all those episodesand it was a lot of fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:38):
But what did you think of what you were
hearing?
The content, like these storiesabout math anxiety, like where
you kind of like, were youinterested or were you just
like, I'm just editing this girllike a yammering on.
David Kochberg (05:49):
Well, I'm quite used to you yammering on.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:51):
Right.
David Kochberg (05:52):
Just in general day-to-day life.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:53):
Sure.
David Kochberg (05:54):
And when you yammer, you are very interesting
and insightful.
And coming from a STEMbackground myself, I found the
conversations interesting.
And on that first season and onsubsequent seasons since you
always have quite a wide varietyof guests from all these
different backgrounds.
Like some people who have mathanxiety, some people who are
(06:18):
doing the same kind of work thatyou are.
And it is interesting talkingabout education.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
So, you know what I'm, I'm curious for you to
just actually tell us a bitabout your history with math.
Like what is your math historylike?
I, we obviously talk about mathtrauma on the podcast all the
time.
Would you say you ever had anymath anxiety yourself or have
experienced any math traumayourself?
David Kochberg (06:42):
You know what, as a matter of fact, I do recall
a specific instance.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:48):
You do?
David Kochberg (06:48):
Yeah.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:50):
But you were always good at math, right?
David Kochberg (06:52):
Well, so this is, this is interesting because
yes, I, I think I always had anaptitude for it in elementary
school, but in elementary schoollike, I didn't do very well in
our school for various reasons.
And, then for high school, Iwent to a gifted school, which
(07:12):
is never a fun thing to say outloud, but alas.
But however it balances out bythe rest of the story, because I
came in there thinking like, oh,I'm gifted.
I'm really good at everything.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:26):
This is why we don't label students, everyone.
Go on.
David Kochberg (07:28):
Anti labels.
If there's one thing I'velearned from listening to
hundreds of Math Therapyinterviews is that labels are
very damaging.
Uh, so yeah, so I rolled intothe first day of class there,
thinking oh, I'm so advanced andI'm ahead of the curve and I'm
so good at math and blah, blah,blah.
And, I think I discovered thateveryone else in that class was
(07:54):
way further ahead of the curvethan me.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Really.
David Kochberg (07:57):
And I remember the first day, I think the first
day of school going to mathclass.
And the teacher starts doingthis, like this exercise.
He's just shouting out numbersand he's like five plus two
times seven minus three dividedby seven and he's going on and
on.
And it's like a kind of braintest for everyone.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:18):
I'm getting anxiety.
David Kochberg (08:19):
So then I got anxiety.
And after like a few numbers,I'm like, I can't keep track of
all this stuff.
And he goes on for like a minuteand then a few of the people in
the class got it.
And then, then they start goingthrough the actual curriculum
and then they're like goingthrough all of this stuff that
I've never seen before and allthese other people are getting
it.
And then also it was the kind ofschool where.
I think you could move aheadgrade levels if you were
(08:40):
advanced.
So then there's kids, who's likethree years younger than me who
know more stuff than me.
And so, I remember like, gettinghome that night, and my parents
are all like excited about megoing to this new school that we
were both excited about, and mebeing challenged.
And I'm like in tears, because Ifeel like I'm so far behind all
(09:02):
of these other kids and all of asudden, I thought I was so smart
cause I get into this giftedschool and actually, I don't
know anything.
And I feel like I was hopeless.
So.
I do remember that initial shockof math trauma.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:18):
It's funny because like, okay.
First of all, I never knew thatstory.
And I'm thinking about how manydifferent things there are in
there that I'm like, oh my God.
So, you know, using timed,timed, quick frantic ways to
measure understanding.
Number two, being labeled.
Number three, you know,comparing yourself to everyone.
(09:40):
Like these are, these are thingsthat can cause math trauma,
right?
Like there's just like a wholebunch of them.
And just this idea of like youleaving there, feeling like
you're so much less than.
Did that stick with you?
How did you, how did you move onfrom that moment?
Like where was there a shift?
David Kochberg (09:56):
That, is a good question.
I don't really know because
Vanessa Vakharia (10:01):
Did your parents say anything to you?
Like did someone like,
David Kochberg (10:03):
Well, I think it was a matter of like, Hey, this
is the first day.
Let's give it a little bit oftime.
There's going to be a transitionperiod.
And this was a very differentschool.
And I guess that's somethingI've always related to your
story that you, that you alwaystell about your academic journey
and how you didn't fit in at thequote unquote regular school.
(10:27):
And then when you get, went toan alternative school, you were
able to find yourselfacademically more.
And so that is what happened tome at this school.
Kind of the identical storywhere in previous schools I had
not really fit in and I hadn'tfelt challenged or there wasn't
the same kind of attention or itjust didn't, it just didn't work
(10:47):
for me.
for whatever reasons, but thenat this school, I did end up
fine.
And it was a much smallerschool.
They were small classes.
So we got to know our teachersreally well and there was so
much one-on-one.
So I think those kinds of thingsare actually a parallel between
our high school journeys.
And so I think just initiallythat initial shock was a turning
point.
And then I, we just were like,let's not panic.
(11:10):
Let's not jump to conclusionstoo quickly.
Let's give it a bit of time.
And then over time I did getinto it and I was able to catch
up to everyone.
And then, and then at thatschool, yeah, like we would do
all those, those Euclid orwhatever tests like.
Yeah.
So they still had those.
And then I started to reallyenjoy those because those were
(11:31):
very problem solving oriented.
And, I came to excel at math andscience and really enjoy it.
And then that's why I ended upgoing into engineering for my
bachelor's.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:42):
Well, for those of you who don't know, no
joke, and I'm not just sayingthis, David is probably the best
problem solver I know.
Not that there's like a best wayto be a problem solver, but
like, I, it's actuallyincredible to watch you because
literally any problem, whetherit's figuring out how to record
the podcast or even for thisinterview, trying to figure out
how to make this one mic workfor both of us while we're still
(12:04):
being videoed while we're in thesame room by different devices.
Or whether it's like, I can'tfigure out how to, like, put a
tripod together.
Or, I mean, it's, it's crazy howyour brain works to me.
And to me, whenever I think ofwhat math is about, I think of
you.
I think it's about, um, teachingsomebody the skills they need to
(12:24):
be able to creatively problemsolve in any circumstance, not
teaching someone how to puttogether a tripod, but teaching
somebody how to be able to lookat any problem from a variety of
angles so that they can solveany problem.
And I really wonder, like, haveyou ever considered that your
ability to do that is a mathskill?
(12:46):
Oh, my God.
I'm coming up with such goodquestions.
Look, I'm stumping you.
David Kochberg (12:49):
You are a professional.
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:52):
Before, before this podcast, would you have
considered that a math skill?
David Kochberg (12:56):
Probably not explicitly, I wouldn't say that
it would be math.
I wouldn't think of, and I'mtrying to decide if I do, if I
still, if I think now,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:05):
Oh yeah, sorry.
David Kochberg (13:06):
I think problem solving, is a component of math
in general.
but yeah, you get, this isgetting into the semantics of
like, of what is math.
And so you can say math isproblem solving.
You can say, like some of theguests in, in recent seasons
have said, that math is patternrecognition and you can draw a
(13:30):
parallel between patternrecognition and problem solving.
So there's definitely a lot ofoverlap.
Yeah, probably listening to yourconversations and to you and
other educators dive so deeplyinto what is education?
How do kids learn?
How do we transfer learning andknowledge to, to students?
I probably wouldn't have thoughtso deeply about that kind of
(13:52):
thing, but yes, I definitelythink that problem solving and
math are intertwined.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:59):
So the other really interesting thing I think
is that you're not an educator.
You're not a math educator.
You like, I would imagine thatbefore starting this podcast,
you were like, how much is therereally to talk about in math
education?
Like you go and teach math.
Am I right?
Like, and where I'm going withthis, just to give you the full
framing of the question is I'mreally, I'm so curious, like now
(14:20):
that you've seen me behind thescenes and like, you've heard
all of these conversations andyou've heard about all of the
like crazy math wars on socialmedia, I'm wondering how your
perception of math education haschanged over the past four
years.
David Kochberg (14:34):
Well, one thing that popped to mind just, I've
been through a lot of differenteducation.
Like I did a bachelor's and thenI've also done a master's.
So I, and I'm very curious aboutacademia and I like learning
just about how the world works.
And I, I enjoyed learning aboutthe academic world.
And then also it occurs to methat my mom was a high school
(14:54):
teacher and the languagedepartment head or something for
many, many years.
So I also have that kind ofperspective of just knowing what
her life as a teacher was like.
Both in terms of education andthen also the social and
political influences on teachersand on education.
(15:15):
In terms of the world.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:16):
Say more!
David Kochberg (15:17):
Well, just like the, just budget cuts from
provincial governments inOntario that greatly affected
her work and life and her fellowteachers, and just knowing the
kind of stress that politics canimpose onto the education
system.
So that, yeah, I think that allthat kind of stuff has, is just
(15:40):
part of me as well.
And so that's why I think I canrelate to and find interest in
all the conversations that youhave with your guests, about
what, cause they, the samethings that happened 20, 30
years ago are, have beenhappening the last few years.
And that does lead to the mathwars, which is, it's crazy.
(16:00):
And it is really interestingthat education is such a.
a hot button topic or it's, it'slike, to observe how heated
things get is pretty crazy,where instead of people, I mean,
you and the people you've talkedto so far on the podcast are
(16:21):
having very constructiveconversations, but in other
spaces, it's just yelling ateach other or like tearing each
other down and scream, and itbecomes very political and
argumentative as opposed toproblem-solving oriented.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:36):
Do you have more or less hope in our ability
to change math education afterlistening to all these stories?
David Kochberg (16:45):
Deep, deep sigh.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:47):
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, are you kind of like, ohmy God, this is way more of a
mess than I thought it was.
Or are you like, oh, look likeall these people are really
hopeful and wanting to do goodwork.
David Kochberg (16:56):
Hmm.
I guess more because you do havea lot of really constructive
conversations.
And knowing, and also knowingthe feedback that you get, that
we get as a podcast, just fromteachers who email you to tell
you how either an episode reallyimpacted them or when they see
(17:17):
you at a conference and then youget the feedback that they got
so inspired and that they'regoing to bring these strategies
and perspectives into theirclassroom.
Then you have to have a hopefulperspective that, that those
little changes, even just oneteacher treating one student
(17:38):
better, that that improves theworld, even if it's not like the
entire overhaul of the educationsystem or something.
So it is hopeful to know thatyou and your colleagues and
these guests are doing this kindof work.
I think it still is very easy tobe cynical, just because it's
the way people, the way otherpeople argue.
(18:00):
But then also that I do feellike this is just like any other
field or
Vanessa Vakharia (18:05):
is it?
I always wonder this I'm like,is this like, when I think about
it, I'm like, oh my God, matheducation is so crazy.
I'm like, but hold on, this isjust like the music industry
we're in.
Really the exact same thing,but.
David Kochberg (18:17):
Well, that's different.
No, because there, I think it'sanything in which politics is
involved..
Vanessa Vakharia (18:23):
Right, right, right, right, right, right.
David Kochberg (18:24):
So because politicians can weaponize these
kinds of things in the effort toget elected or stay elected or
to sway voters.
And so, like whatever, withoutbeing partisan or whatever, it's
like, you can get one, party orsomething saying, oh, it's this
other party's fault thatwhatever test scores are low or
(18:46):
something.
And then it just becomes, likewith so many other things that
are impacted by politics, it'sjust becomes a sport.
And then you've got the peoplewho support one party against
the people who support the otherparty, as opposed to those
people really wanting to learn,well, what is the research, what
does the research say aboutthis, this teaching method or
(19:09):
about test scores or about timedtest or something.
Like, I mean, that's somethingas an engineer that I have
always been drawn to and I feellike it is part of problem
solving for me is evidence-basedstrategies or, or something like
that.
But I also recognize that manypeople don't think like an
engineer or maybe don't have a,a STEM background where.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:33):
They just don't.
I'm not, I'm kind of speakingfor myself here in a way of
like, I don't think people don'tcare.
I think there's so muchinformation.
There's so much overwhelm oflike, how do I find actual
research and dig into the factand make sure it's not fake
news, that people just can'tlike, they just go with
something.
David Kochberg (19:51):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
It's not that I don't think people care,
honestly.
I think that you have the peoplewho care about evidence-based
and they find evidence and I'musing air quotes from like some
fucked up source, and don't evenknow that it's like fake news or
don't care.
Or B they're like, yeah, I wouldlove some evidence, but like, I
can't possibly like figure outwhere to dig and find actual
evidence.
So I'm just going to trust thisperson who I trust, who happens
(20:13):
to be this politician becauseI'm on their side.
David Kochberg (20:16):
Yeah, it's tough.
It's very hard because you talkabout, I mean, what, what you
were describing was acombination of media literacy
and numeracy, um, and, it isvery difficult, I mean, I think
about this, I think about thisin, in terms of society as a
whole, but working with you onthis podcast has helped me to
(20:38):
think about it in terms of matheducation which is very
interesting, I mean when, whenthe COVID stuff came out and
like you've got sciencecommunicators trying to explain
what's actually happening.
And then, I mean, even me who isan engineer and understands
stuff is, it was so good.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:55):
Who is an engineer and understands stuff.
David Kochberg (20:58):
That's on that's on my diploma.
Bachelor of engineer and guy whoknows some stuff.
Yeah.
yeah, even for me, I, even forme, a genius.
I was
Vanessa Vakharia (21:12):
A gifted,
David Kochberg (21:13):
A gifted genius, with multiple degrees, it was
very confusing.
And so I think about, yeah,with, with these things about
politicians using these issuesas kind of political wedges,
it's very frustrating because,because, yeah, I feel for the
(21:33):
people who are swayed by thesearguments, because they don't
have the training to understanda statistical analysis or, yeah,
this whole, the anti-sciencemovement or something, or like,
that's what I was saying before,how I, found it interesting,
like doing my masters.
I didn't do a research basedmaster's, but I was exposed to
(21:55):
other colleagues in my, in mygroup who were doing that.
So I could see all that stuffand I could see how things are
peer reviewed and understandwhat is a meta analysis and
understand how, and I also took,like, I don't understand
statistics now, I couldn't do astatistical analysis now, but I
took a course back then.
And so I, I have a, afoundational understanding of
(22:17):
how statistics works.
So then that gives me confidencein, what a scientific paper says
now.
Whereas someone who doesn't havethat kind of training, it's
like, no wonder someone whodoesn't have a STEM background,
like, having a, having a, havingblind faith in science, it is
(22:39):
hard for a lot of people, if youdon't really know how it works
and, and it's hard to, yeah.
Is this making any sense?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:47):
That makes sense.
And the thing is I'm justlistening to you being like in a
way, politicians are weaponizingprivilege.
David Kochberg (22:52):
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:52):
Because you're, you're saying all these
amazing things, but I'mlistening to you and I'm like,
wow.
Yeah, you have the STEMbackground and you have these
degrees.
And like, I'm not saying this isthe only way, but it's like, so
much of that comes, you know,like there is a privileged
position and being able toobtain all these degrees, and
like all of this education, likewe already know that.
So I'm like, I, it's not likepoliticians don't know what
(23:13):
they're doing, or like theselike fake news movements don't
know what they're doing.
They know that many people haveno idea how to interpret stats.
So like they're kind ofweaponizing our societies and
numeracy.
And I do think that many people,like advertisers included, like,
know what they're doing.
They.
They should know that peopledon't understand the math behind
a lot of the science, andthey're going to use that to
(23:35):
their advantage, to sellwhatever they want to sell,
whether that's a new curriculumor policy or product.
Okay.
I think we.
David Kochberg (23:41):
I think yes.
I think your point aboutprivilege is very fair and apt.
And I think, I think it can alsobe, I think, a big aspect of the
social divide in general thatpoliticians can then kind of
amplify or feed off of, is thisidea that the word"uneducated"
(24:01):
can sound so insulting and youcan, because it's so easy to
like, look at, look at the otherside, look at someone who thinks
the opposite you or votes forthe other person and think like,
oh, they're stupid, they don'tget, but, I don't think, I mean,
I don't think every, everyonefeels that way, but there's
definitely some people who arelike that person, how can they
(24:21):
vote for such and such?
They like, they must be so dumb.
But my point more so was like,being uneducated, I think it's
not necessarily like a dirtyword or pejorative or something.
It is a fact.
And I guess that rolls into whythis, like, why all your
conversations about equity anddiversity and taking into a
(24:44):
class, a account class andprivilege and stuff like that in
education system is so importantbecause if people are educated
to understand these kinds ofthings, then they have the
foundational understanding ofhow society works, and like that
basic level of, of literacy andnumeracy and media literacy, but
(25:05):
that's all, that's a lot of workthat the school system has to
do.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:11):
Uh, okay.
I mean, I was thinking like, youknow, this kind of, this whole
rant started with the math warsand you know, the one thing I've
wanted to do is be the Joe Roganof of math education.
I've thought of us doing aseason where I invite guests on
specifically that I don'ttechnically agree with.
Right?
Just thinking of the math wars,obviously there are sides and I
(25:33):
really do believe that there areso much common ground that has
never discussed because peoplewant to polarize.
And everyone is like, you'reeither on this side or that.
And I've thought of having thisseason where I specifically
bring on those who I disagreewith.
That's what I mean about JoeRogan.
I mean that he's not verydiscerning with what guest.
David Kochberg (25:50):
No, I get it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:51):
I wouldn't say I'm a fan.
I'm just saying that, thatformat.
What do you think of that idea?
Should I, should I do that?
David Kochberg (25:58):
Well, uh, I mean, I can advise you about how
to structure an episode.
About what order of guests weshould put the season in.
Um, you know, I can help you.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:13):
Are you going to answer.
David Kochberg (26:13):
Copy edit the intros and outros.
Um, joking aside, I, I thinkit's an interesting idea.
I think it's hard.
it can be.
risky with some guests, but I dothink there's a hundred percent
great value in.
two people who don't agree witheach other, actually
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
Having a conversation! Okay.
So if you're listening to thisright now and you have a
suggestion for a guest, I shouldbring on, that I probably
wouldn't agree with or that youdon't agree with, I don't know.
Just, just give us somesuggestions, tweet them at us.
David Kochberg (26:47):
But even the last season, when you
interviewed Chris, Luzniak,Yeah.
the Debate Math Podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:52):
That guy is so controversial.
No, just kidding.
He's great.
David Kochberg (26:56):
Yes,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:56):
But what about him?
Oh, the debate podcast.
Oh.
David Kochberg (26:59):
Let me finish.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:00):
I thought you were gonna talk shit about
Chris, David.
David Kochberg (27:02):
No he's great.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:03):
He's the nicest.
Yeah, Chris, we love you.
David Kochberg (27:06):
Are you done?
So.
In that episode, he was talkingabout the value of people
talking, even if they don'tagree with each other.
And, now it's one thing, ifyou've got someone who's just
out there and is clearlyintentionally inflammatory, just
(27:28):
trying to like get clicks orlikes or whatevers.
That's a different story, but ifit's just like, if you can get a
sense that someone is arguingabout something because they
care.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:38):
Yes.
David Kochberg (27:39):
Ultimately,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:40):
Just a different point of view.
David Kochberg (27:41):
Yeah.
Not just because they'reargumentative then.
Yeah.
I think that there is in, ineducation and in all aspects of
life, I do think people, andthis is, I think just the perils
of social media, it has rewardedarguments, and people yelling at
each other.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:57):
Honestly, I don't know how, but it's been 35
minutes.
So I know you would be tellingme to wrap it up.
But I know what people reallywant to know is what is it like
working with me?
David Kochberg (28:05):
Okay.
Well, I mean, it, you, we areyour best friends and I, and we
know each other very well.
And so high level, it is a lotof fun.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend atthe, this much time working on
something, if I didn't enjoyworking with you on it.
And if I didn't feel like thework itself is important.
I think it's very, I've alwaysbeen fulfilled and honored to be
(28:28):
a part of it, because I knowthat there's a lot of listeners
and, and teachers who follow youand colleagues and stuff who are
very touched by theconversations that you have, and
by your own perspective,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:41):
Okay, next, next, next.
David Kochberg (28:43):
You weren't fishing for a compliment?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:44):
No, this is a little much, honestly people are
going to think that I asked youto say all this nice stuff about
me.
Next question.
David Kochberg (28:48):
Okay.
You didn't.
I'm volunteering.
I was just volunteering.
Trying to be nice.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:51):
Thank you so much.
I love it.
The next question is, as youknow, I have written a book
called Math Therapy.
David Kochberg (28:57):
What?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:58):
And it's out and I want.
David Kochberg (29:00):
You want me to say the scripted pitch for how
great the book is?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:06):
But the reason we're recording this, these
bonus episodes is because I, um,wrote a book.
Uh, normally we only do oneseason a year, but I really want
to do a little something tocelebrate because it's been such
a huge milestone.
And it all started with thispodcast.
And the question I want to askyou is, do you think it is dumb
that I wrote a book called MathTherapy.
David Kochberg (29:24):
Do I think it's dumb.
She says on the, on the eve ofher releasing said book.
Uh, do I think it's dumb thatyou, no, I don't think it's dumb
that you wrote a book.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:37):
What do you think?
Are you like, what's the vibe.
David Kochberg (29:40):
Well the vibe, okay, but I also just, just also
to attack, because youinterrupted me, which is not a
very nice thing for aninterviewer to do.
I mean, I was, and I was aboutto compliment how great and
talented and natural a host youare.
But in terms of, do I enjoyworking on the podcast or what
I, I also, part of it is it's alot of fun technically.
I like editing, I likeassembling it, I like putting
(30:03):
the whole thing together.
It's fun.
So that's another reason, youknow, just for, if there are any
budding podcast producers.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:09):
It's for the budding podcast producers.
David Kochberg (30:12):
Go start a podcast.
Pick a topic.
Just hit record and then spendthe next few hours just
stressing over wave forms andwhether or not it recorded.
And if there's background noise,or maybe, maybe the fridge
started humming and then you'vegot this little, in the
background.
Um, what was the question?
Vanessa Vakharia (30:33):
My book.
David Kochberg (30:34):
So I think it's great that you wrote a book, why
would I think it's dumb?
I think it's a natural extensionof all of your work.
I mean, you've got your wholelife experience that has led you
to your perspective on matheducation.
You've worked closely withteenagers and students for many,
many years.
You're kind of like, you are ateenager in your brain.
And you've developed all ofthese workshops and seminars
(30:58):
that you bring to conferencesaround the world and share these
insights and inspirations toteachers to take them to their
classroom.
So it is very logical that allof that stuff and the stuff that
you talk about in the podcast,all can be neatly packaged in a
(31:18):
bright pink book.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:20):
And just to be clear the book, isn't like a
bunch of stories of the podcast.
It's how to actually take maththerapy and use it in your
classrooms.
It's like five steps to healmath trauma in the classroom.
And it's like how to do it,because I feel like in the
podcast we learned about allthese stories and I started
realizing, oh my gosh, like mathtrauma is literally everywhere.
And it comes in so manydifferent ways, you know,
(31:41):
shapes, forms, sizes, this andthat, but also realizing that
what we do through the podcast,this idea of math therapy, is
there are actual practicalapplications and, well, yeah,
now I'm just promoting the book,but I'm just going to do it for
one minute.
The point is the book isactually just 200 pages of tips
and tricks and strategies andtemplates and resources of how
(32:01):
to actually take math therapyand turn it into a culture in
your classroom.
The end, I'm done.
David
David Kochberg (32:06):
Which is valuable and a great resource
that teachers will have.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:10):
It's out now.
Go order it.
David Kochberg (32:12):
It's great that you wrote a book.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
David.
It is time for the two finalquestions I ask every guest.
David Kochberg (32:17):
I was not anticipating this and I should
have.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:19):
Are you ready?
David Kochberg (32:20):
I guess so.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:21):
What do you say to someone who says, but
David.
I'm just not a math person.
You're so triggered.
David Kochberg (32:29):
Well, this is, it'll sound too easy, but I
think the catchiest and mostsuccinct and accurate way to put
it is that there is no suchthing as a math person.
I agree with your tagline.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Why are you saying it in that tone of voice?
David Kochberg (32:44):
I guess I just have resigned myself to not
being able to on the spot comeup with something original.
And I'm just, I just amdisappointed in myself,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:55):
But you did great, don't be so hard on
yourself.
Just in case anyone waswondering, David is a Taurus,
which explains basically thiswhole interview.
Final question.
If you could change one thingabout math education, what would
it be?
David Kochberg (33:07):
Get those, get the politicians out of there.
Right?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:15):
I think we're done.
Yeah.
That was actually the biggesttreat.
I don't, I didn't ask you any ofthe questions I had planned.
David Kochberg (33:21):
Just like every other interview you do.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:24):
Guys.
David Kochberg, the man, themyth, the legend, the Taurus,
you're, you're wonderful, thankyou so much for letting me do
this.
I know it was uncomfortable foryou to be in front of the
camera, in front of the mic.
We all had a great time.
And now is that time where I'mgoing to bid you farewell.
David Kochberg (33:41):
How are you going to do it?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:42):
Peace out.
David Kochberg (33:45):
Bye.
Thanks for having me.
Okay.
Wow.
That was a real roller coasterride, even for me.
And I do feel I need to saythree things to end this
episode.
The first is, we are notconspiracy theorists.
The second is I am actuallyreally serious, and I do want
(34:06):
you guys to send me yourcontroversial guest ideas and by
controversial, I mean likepeople you think I might not
agree with because I want totalk to them, I want to, I want
to hear the other side.
And number three, well, this oneis just a shameless plug.
Order my book.
Or at least check it out byheading to maththerapy.com.
Honestly, thank you guys all somuch for being along for the
wild ride that is this podcastand you know what, send David
(34:29):
some love, because he did agreat, great job, and he was
really nervous.
You know, it takes a lot to gofrom being behind the scenes, to
in front of the camera, and justshout out to David.
We love you, boo.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:44):
But I know what people really want to know
is what is it like working withme?
David Kochberg (34:48):
I also have to say that this entire time, I
have just been stressed aboutwhether or not the mic is even
working.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:55):
How would I know
David Kochberg (34:55):
Exactly! That's how, we're not going to know
until we finish until we pressstop, we're not gonna know,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:00):
like the time thing says it's recording.
David Kochberg (35:02):
Yeah, sure.
But what is, what is time, but aconstruct.
Okay.
Anyways, what was your question?
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:25):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so the fans have beenasking.
Who is this David, and how doeshe put up with you?
And if you're not a long timelistener, you might be like, who
is David?
And David, guys, is ourproducer.
Like you hear him in episode.
He'll pipe up when I'm talkingtoo loud, or my bracelets are
(00:48):
jingling, or when I saysomething that might get me
canceled.
He's the man behind MathTherapy.
And I thought it was time to gethim on the podcast.
This conversation was wild.
We talked about Joe Rogan.
We talked about how matheducation has been weaponized.
We talked about what David, whois not an educator, really
thinks about the"math wars".
Most importantly, though, wetalked about my new book for
(01:08):
like two minutes.
If you haven't heard it's calledMath Therapy.
it came out on September 2nd,Keanu Reeves' 60th birthday.
And it's finally available fororder, if you head to
maththerapy.com.
It's a book for teachers on howto help every single student
heal their math trauma in theirclassroom.
Anyways, you're not here forthat.
You are here for David, justlike I am.
(01:29):
So without further ado.
Let's get to it.
Okay guys, I know the fans ofthe pod have always wondered
about the man, the mystery, thelegend, the wizard of Oz, the
wizard of Math Therapy, DavidKochberg.
He is our producer.
He's my long time bestie.
He's my ex-boyfriend.
(01:50):
We're in a band together.
I know that you guys arewondering.
How do you make it work?
What is it like?
What is it like behind thescenes?
So I thought.
I would interview David, andthat's what we're going to do
today.
So David, welcome to thepodcast.
David Kochberg (02:07):
Vanessa, it is a delight and an honor to be here.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:11):
I just want you guys to know that before we
started even recording Davidstarted having a full panic
because he's like, well, I don'tknow what to do.
I'm not even in, I'm not incontrol.
I can't see the wave form on thescreen.
And, and, you know, I thinkthat's a really good segue into,
what is it like with us workingtogether, working with somebody,
David you, yourself, who is sucha perfectionist, so detail
(02:33):
oriented.
And you having me to produce,who is so not detail oriented.
What has it been like?
Let's start there.
David Kochberg (02:43):
It has been a learning curve, but as you
clearly, and in great detail,explained our entire history
together, we have gone through alot together.
So I know you very well, and Iknow how to work with you.
We'll have our little spats.
Uh, we'll have our little,
Vanessa Vakharia (03:03):
What do we fight about?
Like about what, what are wedisagreeing about during the
making of the podcast?
Run the fans through it.
David Kochberg (03:09):
Well, We have opposing forms of anxiety that
both annoy and compound on eachothers.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:18):
Sure.
David Kochberg (03:18):
So it's just a matter of us just going through
those motions before eachrecording session.
I get anxious about is it goingto sound good?
Is, I, is the room going to betoo echoey, is there going to be
some noise from outside that themic is going to pick up?
What's the lighting, all thisstuff.
You're sitting there freakingout about all the questions that
(03:40):
you're going to ask, or youdon't even know what questions
to ask but you've written athousand questions, and then
when we get to the interview,you don't ask any of them.
You then just end upchit-chatting and shooting the
shit with the guest.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:50):
First swear word on the podcast episode.
And it is from David Kochberg.
Okay.
So that's really, really good toknow.
Thank you so much.
I mean, I think what's reallyinteresting is you, so you get
roped into this podcast.
Can you take yourself back towhen we started this, which I
think was 2020, 1st season, fouryears ago.
What you were thinking when Iwas like, I want you to produce
(04:12):
a podcast called Math Therapy.
Like what, and I ask thisbecause you are not a math
teacher, right?
You're not a math educator,you're an engineer, which so
you're kind of in STEM.
David Kochberg (04:22):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:22):
But very different than being in the
education world.
What were you thinking at thattime about what the podcast was
going to be about?
And like, did you care?
Like, were you like, whatever,like I'll just produce something
or were you interested in theidea of math therapy?
David Kochberg (04:36):
Well, to be precise, I came on board after
you had already recorded thefirst season's interviews.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:44):
What?
Who produced it?
David Kochberg (04:46):
Well, you and Sabina started the podcast and
you had recorded all of theseepisodes, and then you needed
someone to edit them and turnthem into a podcast.
So then that's so yeah, Iwasn't, I wasn't involved in the
very early germination of theseed.
Seed is that a right analogy?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:05):
Obviously, I'm not going to know.
So, well, so when you startediting these episodes, what are
you thinking?
Like you're hearing thesestories.
What's going on.
David Kochberg (05:14):
From a technical standpoint, I was curious about
just, how does one edit apodcast?
And then, because we are in aband together and over the
years, I've gotten into a lot ofthe production, I have learned a
lot about audio editing andmixing and stuff like that.
So then that's why I thought,well, maybe I can try editing
(05:35):
this podcast.
And I edited all those episodesand it was a lot of fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:38):
But what did you think of what you were
hearing?
The content, like these storiesabout math anxiety, like where
you kind of like, were youinterested or were you just
like, I'm just editing this girllike a yammering on.
David Kochberg (05:49):
Well, I'm quite used to you yammering on.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:51):
Right.
David Kochberg (05:52):
Just in general day-to-day life.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:53):
Sure.
David Kochberg (05:54):
And when you yammer, you are very interesting
and insightful.
And coming from a STEMbackground myself, I found the
conversations interesting.
And on that first season and onsubsequent seasons since you
always have quite a wide varietyof guests from all these
different backgrounds.
Like some people who have mathanxiety, some people who are
(06:18):
doing the same kind of work thatyou are.
And it is interesting talkingabout education.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
So, you know what I'm, I'm curious for you to
just actually tell us a bitabout your history with math.
Like what is your math historylike?
I, we obviously talk about mathtrauma on the podcast all the
time.
Would you say you ever had anymath anxiety yourself or have
experienced any math traumayourself?
David Kochberg (06:42):
You know what, as a matter of fact, I do recall
a specific instance.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:48):
You do?
David Kochberg (06:48):
Yeah.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:50):
But you were always good at math, right?
David Kochberg (06:52):
Well, so this is, this is interesting because
yes, I, I think I always had anaptitude for it in elementary
school, but in elementary schoollike, I didn't do very well in
our school for various reasons.
And, then for high school, Iwent to a gifted school, which
(07:12):
is never a fun thing to say outloud, but alas.
But however it balances out bythe rest of the story, because I
came in there thinking like, oh,I'm gifted.
I'm really good at everything.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:26):
This is why we don't label students, everyone.
Go on.
David Kochberg (07:28):
Anti labels.
If there's one thing I'velearned from listening to
hundreds of Math Therapyinterviews is that labels are
very damaging.
Uh, so yeah, so I rolled intothe first day of class there,
thinking oh, I'm so advanced andI'm ahead of the curve and I'm
so good at math and blah, blah,blah.
And, I think I discovered thateveryone else in that class was
(07:54):
way further ahead of the curvethan me.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Really.
David Kochberg (07:57):
And I remember the first day, I think the first
day of school going to mathclass.
And the teacher starts doingthis, like this exercise.
He's just shouting out numbersand he's like five plus two
times seven minus three dividedby seven and he's going on and
on.
And it's like a kind of braintest for everyone.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:18):
I'm getting anxiety.
David Kochberg (08:19):
So then I got anxiety.
And after like a few numbers,I'm like, I can't keep track of
all this stuff.
And he goes on for like a minuteand then a few of the people in
the class got it.
And then, then they start goingthrough the actual curriculum
and then they're like goingthrough all of this stuff that
I've never seen before and allthese other people are getting
it.
And then also it was the kind ofschool where.
I think you could move aheadgrade levels if you were
(08:40):
advanced.
So then there's kids, who's likethree years younger than me who
know more stuff than me.
And so, I remember like, gettinghome that night, and my parents
are all like excited about megoing to this new school that we
were both excited about, and mebeing challenged.
And I'm like in tears, because Ifeel like I'm so far behind all
(09:02):
of these other kids and all of asudden, I thought I was so smart
cause I get into this giftedschool and actually, I don't
know anything.
And I feel like I was hopeless.
So.
I do remember that initial shockof math trauma.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:18):
It's funny because like, okay.
First of all, I never knew thatstory.
And I'm thinking about how manydifferent things there are in
there that I'm like, oh my God.
So, you know, using timed,timed, quick frantic ways to
measure understanding.
Number two, being labeled.
Number three, you know,comparing yourself to everyone.
(09:40):
Like these are, these are thingsthat can cause math trauma,
right?
Like there's just like a wholebunch of them.
And just this idea of like youleaving there, feeling like
you're so much less than.
Did that stick with you?
How did you, how did you move onfrom that moment?
Like where was there a shift?
David Kochberg (09:56):
That, is a good question.
I don't really know because
Vanessa Vakharia (10:01):
Did your parents say anything to you?
Like did someone like,
David Kochberg (10:03):
Well, I think it was a matter of like, Hey, this
is the first day.
Let's give it a little bit oftime.
There's going to be a transitionperiod.
And this was a very differentschool.
And I guess that's somethingI've always related to your
story that you, that you alwaystell about your academic journey
and how you didn't fit in at thequote unquote regular school.
(10:27):
And then when you get, went toan alternative school, you were
able to find yourselfacademically more.
And so that is what happened tome at this school.
Kind of the identical storywhere in previous schools I had
not really fit in and I hadn'tfelt challenged or there wasn't
the same kind of attention or itjust didn't, it just didn't work
(10:47):
for me.
for whatever reasons, but thenat this school, I did end up
fine.
And it was a much smallerschool.
They were small classes.
So we got to know our teachersreally well and there was so
much one-on-one.
So I think those kinds of thingsare actually a parallel between
our high school journeys.
And so I think just initiallythat initial shock was a turning
point.
And then I, we just were like,let's not panic.
(11:10):
Let's not jump to conclusionstoo quickly.
Let's give it a bit of time.
And then over time I did getinto it and I was able to catch
up to everyone.
And then, and then at thatschool, yeah, like we would do
all those, those Euclid orwhatever tests like.
Yeah.
So they still had those.
And then I started to reallyenjoy those because those were
(11:31):
very problem solving oriented.
And, I came to excel at math andscience and really enjoy it.
And then that's why I ended upgoing into engineering for my
bachelor's.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:42):
Well, for those of you who don't know, no
joke, and I'm not just sayingthis, David is probably the best
problem solver I know.
Not that there's like a best wayto be a problem solver, but
like, I, it's actuallyincredible to watch you because
literally any problem, whetherit's figuring out how to record
the podcast or even for thisinterview, trying to figure out
how to make this one mic workfor both of us while we're still
(12:04):
being videoed while we're in thesame room by different devices.
Or whether it's like, I can'tfigure out how to, like, put a
tripod together.
Or, I mean, it's, it's crazy howyour brain works to me.
And to me, whenever I think ofwhat math is about, I think of
you.
I think it's about, um, teachingsomebody the skills they need to
(12:24):
be able to creatively problemsolve in any circumstance, not
teaching someone how to puttogether a tripod, but teaching
somebody how to be able to lookat any problem from a variety of
angles so that they can solveany problem.
And I really wonder, like, haveyou ever considered that your
ability to do that is a mathskill?
(12:46):
Oh, my God.
I'm coming up with such goodquestions.
Look, I'm stumping you.
David Kochberg (12:49):
You are a professional.
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:52):
Before, before this podcast, would you have
considered that a math skill?
David Kochberg (12:56):
Probably not explicitly, I wouldn't say that
it would be math.
I wouldn't think of, and I'mtrying to decide if I do, if I
still, if I think now,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:05):
Oh yeah, sorry.
David Kochberg (13:06):
I think problem solving, is a component of math
in general.
but yeah, you get, this isgetting into the semantics of
like, of what is math.
And so you can say math isproblem solving.
You can say, like some of theguests in, in recent seasons
have said, that math is patternrecognition and you can draw a
(13:30):
parallel between patternrecognition and problem solving.
So there's definitely a lot ofoverlap.
Yeah, probably listening to yourconversations and to you and
other educators dive so deeplyinto what is education?
How do kids learn?
How do we transfer learning andknowledge to, to students?
I probably wouldn't have thoughtso deeply about that kind of
(13:52):
thing, but yes, I definitelythink that problem solving and
math are intertwined.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:59):
So the other really interesting thing I think
is that you're not an educator.
You're not a math educator.
You like, I would imagine thatbefore starting this podcast,
you were like, how much is therereally to talk about in math
education?
Like you go and teach math.
Am I right?
Like, and where I'm going withthis, just to give you the full
framing of the question is I'mreally, I'm so curious, like now
(14:20):
that you've seen me behind thescenes and like, you've heard
all of these conversations andyou've heard about all of the
like crazy math wars on socialmedia, I'm wondering how your
perception of math education haschanged over the past four
years.
David Kochberg (14:34):
Well, one thing that popped to mind just, I've
been through a lot of differenteducation.
Like I did a bachelor's and thenI've also done a master's.
So I, and I'm very curious aboutacademia and I like learning
just about how the world works.
And I, I enjoyed learning aboutthe academic world.
And then also it occurs to methat my mom was a high school
(14:54):
teacher and the languagedepartment head or something for
many, many years.
So I also have that kind ofperspective of just knowing what
her life as a teacher was like.
Both in terms of education andthen also the social and
political influences on teachersand on education.
(15:15):
In terms of the world.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:16):
Say more!
David Kochberg (15:17):
Well, just like the, just budget cuts from
provincial governments inOntario that greatly affected
her work and life and her fellowteachers, and just knowing the
kind of stress that politics canimpose onto the education
system.
So that, yeah, I think that allthat kind of stuff has, is just
(15:40):
part of me as well.
And so that's why I think I canrelate to and find interest in
all the conversations that youhave with your guests, about
what, cause they, the samethings that happened 20, 30
years ago are, have beenhappening the last few years.
And that does lead to the mathwars, which is, it's crazy.
(16:00):
And it is really interestingthat education is such a.
a hot button topic or it's, it'slike, to observe how heated
things get is pretty crazy,where instead of people, I mean,
you and the people you've talkedto so far on the podcast are
(16:21):
having very constructiveconversations, but in other
spaces, it's just yelling ateach other or like tearing each
other down and scream, and itbecomes very political and
argumentative as opposed toproblem-solving oriented.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:36):
Do you have more or less hope in our ability
to change math education afterlistening to all these stories?
David Kochberg (16:45):
Deep, deep sigh.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:47):
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, are you kind of like, ohmy God, this is way more of a
mess than I thought it was.
Or are you like, oh, look likeall these people are really
hopeful and wanting to do goodwork.
David Kochberg (16:56):
Hmm.
I guess more because you do havea lot of really constructive
conversations.
And knowing, and also knowingthe feedback that you get, that
we get as a podcast, just fromteachers who email you to tell
you how either an episode reallyimpacted them or when they see
(17:17):
you at a conference and then youget the feedback that they got
so inspired and that they'regoing to bring these strategies
and perspectives into theirclassroom.
Then you have to have a hopefulperspective that, that those
little changes, even just oneteacher treating one student
(17:38):
better, that that improves theworld, even if it's not like the
entire overhaul of the educationsystem or something.
So it is hopeful to know thatyou and your colleagues and
these guests are doing this kindof work.
I think it still is very easy tobe cynical, just because it's
the way people, the way otherpeople argue.
(18:00):
But then also that I do feellike this is just like any other
field or
Vanessa Vakharia (18:05):
is it?
I always wonder this I'm like,is this like, when I think about
it, I'm like, oh my God, matheducation is so crazy.
I'm like, but hold on, this isjust like the music industry
we're in.
Really the exact same thing,but.
David Kochberg (18:17):
Well, that's different.
No, because there, I think it'sanything in which politics is
involved..
Vanessa Vakharia (18:23):
Right, right, right, right, right, right.
David Kochberg (18:24):
So because politicians can weaponize these
kinds of things in the effort toget elected or stay elected or
to sway voters.
And so, like whatever, withoutbeing partisan or whatever, it's
like, you can get one, party orsomething saying, oh, it's this
other party's fault thatwhatever test scores are low or
(18:46):
something.
And then it just becomes, likewith so many other things that
are impacted by politics, it'sjust becomes a sport.
And then you've got the peoplewho support one party against
the people who support the otherparty, as opposed to those
people really wanting to learn,well, what is the research, what
does the research say aboutthis, this teaching method or
(19:09):
about test scores or about timedtest or something.
Like, I mean, that's somethingas an engineer that I have
always been drawn to and I feellike it is part of problem
solving for me is evidence-basedstrategies or, or something like
that.
But I also recognize that manypeople don't think like an
engineer or maybe don't have a,a STEM background where.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:33):
They just don't.
I'm not, I'm kind of speakingfor myself here in a way of
like, I don't think people don'tcare.
I think there's so muchinformation.
There's so much overwhelm oflike, how do I find actual
research and dig into the factand make sure it's not fake
news, that people just can'tlike, they just go with
something.
David Kochberg (19:51):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
It's not that I don't think people care,
honestly.
I think that you have the peoplewho care about evidence-based
and they find evidence and I'musing air quotes from like some
fucked up source, and don't evenknow that it's like fake news or
don't care.
Or B they're like, yeah, I wouldlove some evidence, but like, I
can't possibly like figure outwhere to dig and find actual
evidence.
So I'm just going to trust thisperson who I trust, who happens
(20:13):
to be this politician becauseI'm on their side.
David Kochberg (20:16):
Yeah, it's tough.
It's very hard because you talkabout, I mean, what, what you
were describing was acombination of media literacy
and numeracy, um, and, it isvery difficult, I mean, I think
about this, I think about thisin, in terms of society as a
whole, but working with you onthis podcast has helped me to
(20:38):
think about it in terms of matheducation which is very
interesting, I mean when, whenthe COVID stuff came out and
like you've got sciencecommunicators trying to explain
what's actually happening.
And then, I mean, even me who isan engineer and understands
stuff is, it was so good.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:55):
Who is an engineer and understands stuff.
David Kochberg (20:58):
That's on that's on my diploma.
Bachelor of engineer and guy whoknows some stuff.
Yeah.
yeah, even for me, I, even forme, a genius.
I was
Vanessa Vakharia (21:12):
A gifted,
David Kochberg (21:13):
A gifted genius, with multiple degrees, it was
very confusing.
And so I think about, yeah,with, with these things about
politicians using these issuesas kind of political wedges,
it's very frustrating because,because, yeah, I feel for the
(21:33):
people who are swayed by thesearguments, because they don't
have the training to understanda statistical analysis or, yeah,
this whole, the anti-sciencemovement or something, or like,
that's what I was saying before,how I, found it interesting,
like doing my masters.
I didn't do a research basedmaster's, but I was exposed to
(21:55):
other colleagues in my, in mygroup who were doing that.
So I could see all that stuffand I could see how things are
peer reviewed and understandwhat is a meta analysis and
understand how, and I also took,like, I don't understand
statistics now, I couldn't do astatistical analysis now, but I
took a course back then.
And so I, I have a, afoundational understanding of
(22:17):
how statistics works.
So then that gives me confidencein, what a scientific paper says
now.
Whereas someone who doesn't havethat kind of training, it's
like, no wonder someone whodoesn't have a STEM background,
like, having a, having a, havingblind faith in science, it is
(22:39):
hard for a lot of people, if youdon't really know how it works
and, and it's hard to, yeah.
Is this making any sense?
Vanessa Vakharia (22:47):
That makes sense.
And the thing is I'm justlistening to you being like in a
way, politicians are weaponizingprivilege.
David Kochberg (22:52):
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:52):
Because you're, you're saying all these
amazing things, but I'mlistening to you and I'm like,
wow.
Yeah, you have the STEMbackground and you have these
degrees.
And like, I'm not saying this isthe only way, but it's like, so
much of that comes, you know,like there is a privileged
position and being able toobtain all these degrees, and
like all of this education, likewe already know that.
So I'm like, I, it's not likepoliticians don't know what
(23:13):
they're doing, or like theselike fake news movements don't
know what they're doing.
They know that many people haveno idea how to interpret stats.
So like they're kind ofweaponizing our societies and
numeracy.
And I do think that many people,like advertisers included, like,
know what they're doing.
They.
They should know that peopledon't understand the math behind
a lot of the science, andthey're going to use that to
(23:35):
their advantage, to sellwhatever they want to sell,
whether that's a new curriculumor policy or product.
Okay.
I think we.
David Kochberg (23:41):
I think yes.
I think your point aboutprivilege is very fair and apt.
And I think, I think it can alsobe, I think, a big aspect of the
social divide in general thatpoliticians can then kind of
amplify or feed off of, is thisidea that the word"uneducated"
(24:01):
can sound so insulting and youcan, because it's so easy to
like, look at, look at the otherside, look at someone who thinks
the opposite you or votes forthe other person and think like,
oh, they're stupid, they don'tget, but, I don't think, I mean,
I don't think every, everyonefeels that way, but there's
definitely some people who arelike that person, how can they
(24:21):
vote for such and such?
They like, they must be so dumb.
But my point more so was like,being uneducated, I think it's
not necessarily like a dirtyword or pejorative or something.
It is a fact.
And I guess that rolls into whythis, like, why all your
conversations about equity anddiversity and taking into a
(24:44):
class, a account class andprivilege and stuff like that in
education system is so importantbecause if people are educated
to understand these kinds ofthings, then they have the
foundational understanding ofhow society works, and like that
basic level of, of literacy andnumeracy and media literacy, but
(25:05):
that's all, that's a lot of workthat the school system has to
do.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:11):
Uh, okay.
I mean, I was thinking like, youknow, this kind of, this whole
rant started with the math warsand you know, the one thing I've
wanted to do is be the Joe Roganof of math education.
I've thought of us doing aseason where I invite guests on
specifically that I don'ttechnically agree with.
Right?
Just thinking of the math wars,obviously there are sides and I
(25:33):
really do believe that there areso much common ground that has
never discussed because peoplewant to polarize.
And everyone is like, you'reeither on this side or that.
And I've thought of having thisseason where I specifically
bring on those who I disagreewith.
That's what I mean about JoeRogan.
I mean that he's not verydiscerning with what guest.
David Kochberg (25:50):
No, I get it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:51):
I wouldn't say I'm a fan.
I'm just saying that, thatformat.
What do you think of that idea?
Should I, should I do that?
David Kochberg (25:58):
Well, uh, I mean, I can advise you about how
to structure an episode.
About what order of guests weshould put the season in.
Um, you know, I can help you.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:13):
Are you going to answer.
David Kochberg (26:13):
Copy edit the intros and outros.
Um, joking aside, I, I thinkit's an interesting idea.
I think it's hard.
it can be.
risky with some guests, but I dothink there's a hundred percent
great value in.
two people who don't agree witheach other, actually
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
Having a conversation! Okay.
So if you're listening to thisright now and you have a
suggestion for a guest, I shouldbring on, that I probably
wouldn't agree with or that youdon't agree with, I don't know.
Just, just give us somesuggestions, tweet them at us.
David Kochberg (26:47):
But even the last season, when you
interviewed Chris, Luzniak,Yeah.
the Debate Math Podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:52):
That guy is so controversial.
No, just kidding.
He's great.
David Kochberg (26:56):
Yes,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:56):
But what about him?
Oh, the debate podcast.
Oh.
David Kochberg (26:59):
Let me finish.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:00):
I thought you were gonna talk shit about
Chris, David.
David Kochberg (27:02):
No he's great.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:03):
He's the nicest.
Yeah, Chris, we love you.
David Kochberg (27:06):
Are you done?
So.
In that episode, he was talkingabout the value of people
talking, even if they don'tagree with each other.
And, now it's one thing, ifyou've got someone who's just
out there and is clearlyintentionally inflammatory, just
(27:28):
trying to like get clicks orlikes or whatevers.
That's a different story, but ifit's just like, if you can get a
sense that someone is arguingabout something because they
care.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:38):
Yes.
David Kochberg (27:39):
Ultimately,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:40):
Just a different point of view.
David Kochberg (27:41):
Yeah.
Not just because they'reargumentative then.
Yeah.
I think that there is in, ineducation and in all aspects of
life, I do think people, andthis is, I think just the perils
of social media, it has rewardedarguments, and people yelling at
each other.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:57):
Honestly, I don't know how, but it's been 35
minutes.
So I know you would be tellingme to wrap it up.
But I know what people reallywant to know is what is it like
working with me?
David Kochberg (28:05):
Okay.
Well, I mean, it, you, we areyour best friends and I, and we
know each other very well.
And so high level, it is a lotof fun.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend atthe, this much time working on
something, if I didn't enjoyworking with you on it.
And if I didn't feel like thework itself is important.
I think it's very, I've alwaysbeen fulfilled and honored to be
(28:28):
a part of it, because I knowthat there's a lot of listeners
and, and teachers who follow youand colleagues and stuff who are
very touched by theconversations that you have, and
by your own perspective,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:41):
Okay, next, next, next.
David Kochberg (28:43):
You weren't fishing for a compliment?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:44):
No, this is a little much, honestly people are
going to think that I asked youto say all this nice stuff about
me.
Next question.
David Kochberg (28:48):
Okay.
You didn't.
I'm volunteering.
I was just volunteering.
Trying to be nice.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:51):
Thank you so much.
I love it.
The next question is, as youknow, I have written a book
called Math Therapy.
David Kochberg (28:57):
What?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:58):
And it's out and I want.
David Kochberg (29:00):
You want me to say the scripted pitch for how
great the book is?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:06):
But the reason we're recording this, these
bonus episodes is because I, um,wrote a book.
Uh, normally we only do oneseason a year, but I really want
to do a little something tocelebrate because it's been such
a huge milestone.
And it all started with thispodcast.
And the question I want to askyou is, do you think it is dumb
that I wrote a book called MathTherapy.
David Kochberg (29:24):
Do I think it's dumb.
She says on the, on the eve ofher releasing said book.
Uh, do I think it's dumb thatyou, no, I don't think it's dumb
that you wrote a book.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:37):
What do you think?
Are you like, what's the vibe.
David Kochberg (29:40):
Well the vibe, okay, but I also just, just also
to attack, because youinterrupted me, which is not a
very nice thing for aninterviewer to do.
I mean, I was, and I was aboutto compliment how great and
talented and natural a host youare.
But in terms of, do I enjoyworking on the podcast or what
I, I also, part of it is it's alot of fun technically.
I like editing, I likeassembling it, I like putting
(30:03):
the whole thing together.
It's fun.
So that's another reason, youknow, just for, if there are any
budding podcast producers.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:09):
It's for the budding podcast producers.
David Kochberg (30:12):
Go start a podcast.
Pick a topic.
Just hit record and then spendthe next few hours just
stressing over wave forms andwhether or not it recorded.
And if there's background noise,or maybe, maybe the fridge
started humming and then you'vegot this little, in the
background.
Um, what was the question?
Vanessa Vakharia (30:33):
My book.
David Kochberg (30:34):
So I think it's great that you wrote a book, why
would I think it's dumb?
I think it's a natural extensionof all of your work.
I mean, you've got your wholelife experience that has led you
to your perspective on matheducation.
You've worked closely withteenagers and students for many,
many years.
You're kind of like, you are ateenager in your brain.
And you've developed all ofthese workshops and seminars
(30:58):
that you bring to conferencesaround the world and share these
insights and inspirations toteachers to take them to their
classroom.
So it is very logical that allof that stuff and the stuff that
you talk about in the podcast,all can be neatly packaged in a
(31:18):
bright pink book.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:20):
And just to be clear the book, isn't like a
bunch of stories of the podcast.
It's how to actually take maththerapy and use it in your
classrooms.
It's like five steps to healmath trauma in the classroom.
And it's like how to do it,because I feel like in the
podcast we learned about allthese stories and I started
realizing, oh my gosh, like mathtrauma is literally everywhere.
And it comes in so manydifferent ways, you know,
(31:41):
shapes, forms, sizes, this andthat, but also realizing that
what we do through the podcast,this idea of math therapy, is
there are actual practicalapplications and, well, yeah,
now I'm just promoting the book,but I'm just going to do it for
one minute.
The point is the book isactually just 200 pages of tips
and tricks and strategies andtemplates and resources of how
(32:01):
to actually take math therapyand turn it into a culture in
your classroom.
The end, I'm done.
David
David Kochberg (32:06):
Which is valuable and a great resource
that teachers will have.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:10):
It's out now.
Go order it.
David Kochberg (32:12):
It's great that you wrote a book.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
David.
It is time for the two finalquestions I ask every guest.
David Kochberg (32:17):
I was not anticipating this and I should
have.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:19):
Are you ready?
David Kochberg (32:20):
I guess so.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:21):
What do you say to someone who says, but
David.
I'm just not a math person.
You're so triggered.
David Kochberg (32:29):
Well, this is, it'll sound too easy, but I
think the catchiest and mostsuccinct and accurate way to put
it is that there is no suchthing as a math person.
I agree with your tagline.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Why are you saying it in that tone of voice?
David Kochberg (32:44):
I guess I just have resigned myself to not
being able to on the spot comeup with something original.
And I'm just, I just amdisappointed in myself,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:55):
But you did great, don't be so hard on
yourself.
Just in case anyone waswondering, David is a Taurus,
which explains basically thiswhole interview.
Final question.
If you could change one thingabout math education, what would
it be?
David Kochberg (33:07):
Get those, get the politicians out of there.
Right?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:15):
I think we're done.
Yeah.
That was actually the biggesttreat.
I don't, I didn't ask you any ofthe questions I had planned.
David Kochberg (33:21):
Just like every other interview you do.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:24):
Guys.
David Kochberg, the man, themyth, the legend, the Taurus,
you're, you're wonderful, thankyou so much for letting me do
this.
I know it was uncomfortable foryou to be in front of the
camera, in front of the mic.
We all had a great time.
And now is that time where I'mgoing to bid you farewell.
David Kochberg (33:41):
How are you going to do it?
Vanessa Vakharia (33:42):
Peace out.
David Kochberg (33:45):
Bye.
Thanks for having me.
Okay.
Wow.
That was a real roller coasterride, even for me.
And I do feel I need to saythree things to end this
episode.
The first is, we are notconspiracy theorists.
The second is I am actuallyreally serious, and I do want
(34:06):
you guys to send me yourcontroversial guest ideas and by
controversial, I mean likepeople you think I might not
agree with because I want totalk to them, I want to, I want
to hear the other side.
And number three, well, this oneis just a shameless plug.
Order my book.
Or at least check it out byheading to maththerapy.com.
Honestly, thank you guys all somuch for being along for the
wild ride that is this podcastand you know what, send David
(34:29):
some love, because he did agreat, great job, and he was
really nervous.
You know, it takes a lot to gofrom being behind the scenes, to
in front of the camera, and justshout out to David.
We love you, boo.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:44):
But I know what people really want to know
is what is it like working withme?
David Kochberg (34:48):
I also have to say that this entire time, I
have just been stressed aboutwhether or not the mic is even
working.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:55):
How would I know
David Kochberg (34:55):
Exactly! That's how, we're not going to know
until we finish until we pressstop, we're not gonna know,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:00):
like the time thing says it's recording.
David Kochberg (35:02):
Yeah, sure.
But what is, what is time, but aconstruct.
Okay.
Anyways, what was your question?
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