May 23, 2024 • 41 mins
Dr. India White learned grit and resilience the hard way: facing down obstacles throughout her life and deciding she wouldn’t back down. Now she coaches teachers and students on developing their own gritty superpowers, and she joins Vanessa today for wide-ranging and inspiring conversation. They discuss her journey from a homeless shelter to a college dorm, how equity is about so much more than just race, and the power of lifting each other up as an antidote to fear.
About India
(Website, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, LinkedIn)
As a TEDx speaker, I motivate students who are disadvantaged and at-risk of dropping out! As an educational consultant, I help teachers understand equity and grit in a math classroom! As a speaker coach, I help leaders grow their speaking business! As a co-author for Big Ideas Learning, I provide a diverse lens on teaching math for all learners! As a #1 best-selling Published Author, I help aspiring authors thrive and finish writing their book!
Show notes:
- India’s TEDx Talk “The Power of Grit”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. India White (00:02):
The reason why people feel like they're not a
math person is because they'vehad some type of trauma or some
type of negative experience.
You might not be a rocketscientist.
But you're still a math person.
And if you had the rightteacher, you would have been
able to build that confidenceeven more.
But even if you don't have theright teacher, hang out with
people like me, and we'll buildyour confidence over time.
You'll be just fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, hello! I have a treat foryou today.
Her name is Dr.
India White, and she's an experton grit in the classroom.
She's legit TED Talk famous, andour interview was so inspiring.
I don't know about you, butlately I feel like the concept
of grit has been totallymisused, turned into a classroom
(01:06):
poster and left for kids tofigure out how to action
themselves without anydirection.
But India defines grit in such aunique and inspiring way, and
it's rooted in resilience.
We also discuss how it feels tobe tokenized or dismissed as a
minority, and how equity isabout so much more than just
race, and finally, howsurprisingly easy it is to get a
doctorate.
Also, I feel like this needs adisclaimer that I'm not advising
(01:29):
you to get a fake doctorate, butlike, I may get one myself.
I haven't decided yet.
Okay! Have fun!
Dr. India White (01:37):
Oh my god, this is this whole thing is going to
be you by the end of it.
I'm like, I'm signing up for myPhD.
Go for it.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:43):
I just want someone to give it to me.
Like, you know how they
Dr. India White (01:45):
You can pay for that.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
like,
Dr. India White (01:47):
Just pay, I think it's$450.
People pay for fake doctoratesall the time.
Find a university, and thenthey'll have like some kind of
like honorarium, doctorate formthat you fill out.
And then you pay$450, whatever,and you have a doctorate.
Congratulations.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:03):
Fuck right off.
What are you
Dr. India White (02:05):
All those doctorates.
When I got my doctorate, I hadabout four people apply for
doctorates.
Um, just so that they could sayI'm doctor too, I, hey, I'm
doctor too.
Go for it.
Go be a doctor, go apply.
I thought to get a fakedoctorate, maybe in business or
something, because, you know,I'm so busy out here, but I a
doctorate in business.
So, you know, I can get anotherdoctorate or, hey, if I want
(02:25):
five doctorates just pay for it.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:27):
This seems really inexpensive.
This sounds like the mostAmerican thing I've ever
Dr. India White (02:30):
Look it up.
I'm so serious.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:32):
I'm going to look it up.
Dr. India White (02:33):
They call them honorary doctorates.
And you do a ceremony andeverything.
The only thing is
Vanessa Vakharia (02:38):
No, shut up
Dr. India White (02:38):
I'm not lying.
They do a ceremony for you.
They give you a robe,everything, like you actually
went through school for fouryears at a university, and they
honor you.
And the reason why they dohonorary doctorates, I think
like Missy Elliot or someone hadan honorary doctorate, the
reason why they do it is becausethey understand like certain
people are in the field andthey're famous, they're the
(02:59):
experts, they're good at whatthey do, and they don't have
time to go to school becausethey're so busy servicing
everybody else.
So they say, well, you deserve adoctorate.
Some people really do like somepeople they serve 25 years, 30
years, they've gotten greatresults.
Okay, great.
Like for instance, if you giveMark Zuckerberg a doctorate in
information sciences, probablywell deserved.
Um, you know, Oprah, doctoratein media, something like that.
(03:21):
But there are some people whohave served in fields for maybe
two years, but they're like, eh,I want a doctorate too, shoot,
you know, well then, go, go getone, 450 dollars, you can get a
doctorate.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:34):
The best part about this is, we've not even
started our interview and I feellike you're already doing what
you do best.
Like, I literally came on here,I said I wanted something, and
in five minutes or less, you'vetold me exactly how get it.
Dr. India White (03:47):
Yeah! That's it.
That's why I'm here.
Here to help.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:52):
It's, this is so fucking funny.
I
Dr. India White (03:54):
Hey, we could get doctorates together.
You want to apply?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:56):
Let's get them.
Like,
Dr. India White (03:58):
Hey, I want a doctorate in business.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:01):
In business and I want one in therapy.
Okay.
And we'll do like a whole photoshoot.
Okay.
I love this.
So this is happening.
Great.
How are you so good at this?
How have you already convincedme of what I need with my life?
Dr. India White (04:11):
I don't know.
I think, well with the honorarydoctorate thing.
I think everybody's been in thatboat of, Oh, I want a doctorate,
you know, but I really did someresearch because, you know, and
then of course, you know, aftergetting a real doctorate and
going through that, whoa, I sawa lot of people that were like,
you know what, we saw what youwent through and no thanks, so,
where's the easy way out?
So, I don't know, I think justfrom experience and hearing
(04:35):
people's stories.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:36):
Okay.
But you are, I mean, you're anauthor, you're a speaker, you're
an educational consultant, andyou're a coach.
And I feel like you haveliterally just coached me.
I want to kind of talk aboutthis, I feel like you're doing
so much in the educationalspace, and I really don't know
you, and literally within threeminutes, I'm like, oh, my God,
like, you are actually asuperhero.
(04:57):
You've like simplified thisgreat big thing and just
factually told me how to get it.
You've made me feel not badabout paying 450 dollars and for
everyone's going to call medoctor by the time this episode
comes out.
So how do you like, what, whatis your role in doing this in
education?
Who are you coaching and whatare you coaching them about?
Dr. India White (05:14):
So after spending many years in the
classroom, and knowing that Ihad the it, I had something, but
I just couldn't really pinpointit.
Um, I was like, well, maybe I'mjust good with kids cause I just
know how to communicate.
Or maybe I just know how to havea good relationship.
But then it was deeper thanthat.
When I started to see studentsthat had level one test scores
(05:35):
come back to me with levelthree, level four, level five,
level five, level five, levelfour, level five, level, and it
was just like, okay, it's deeperthan that then.
It's not just relationships, I'mactually able to further
results, um, and help people getwhat they want.
And I think it's because Iunderstand how to teach and how
to motivate and uplift students,teachers, and principals.
(05:58):
And so it spilled out from justthe classroom to actually
teaching teachers, because I hada wonderful principal in
Hillsborough County in Tampa,and he was like, India, I see
more than you, you know, youjust staying behind these four
walls.
You need to be out there.
Like there's more to you thanjust this.
And the look in his face, he wasdead serious and I was like,
(06:21):
Hmm, maybe I need to give this ashot, but what does that look
like?
But I knew that, throughteaching grit, teaching how to
be passionate about what youwant, and then of course,
removing limitations andbarriers.
Because I don't think it's fairthat we need to go through life
feeling like we have oppressionon us or feeling like we can't
evolve into some greatsuperstar, which all of us have
(06:43):
in us, we should not feel thatwe have to be limited by someone
else or by someone else'sopinion or by some mistake we
made in our past.
We should not live in fear, weneed to live beyond that.
We need to walk in faith, weneed to walk in greatness and we
need to own our greatness andown our purpose and fulfill our
purpose through grit.
(07:04):
So my thing is, I know I havethe tools, the resources, the
research, and the experience tocome alongside wonderful
teachers, principals,superintendents, to really help
develop and motivate studentsthrough grit and also through
implementing equitable mathpractices in particular, to
close the achievement gap.
So that's my purpose.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:26):
I'm like so fired up.
I feel like I'm going to likecry, but I'm also like really
excited.
Like, I don't know what I'm evenfeeling right now, but other
than like, I believe you.
And I, I have a question.
Like, so you've mentioned gritand equitable practices multiple
times.
Can you define what equitablepractices mean to you and what
grit means to you?
Dr. India White (07:46):
So NCTM did a wonderful job back in 2000 and
they said that equity is when aleader provides reasonable, um,
accommodations and supports tostudents as needed to promote
access and attainment for alllearners.
And so what that says is thatI'm going to meet that student
where they are and provide theservices that they need, no
matter if they're deaf and hardof hearing, no matter if they
(08:08):
are a student with a disability,if they are emotionally, if they
are visually impaired, if theyare dealing with trauma, if they
are two years behind, if theyhave a various linguistic or
cultural backgrounds, I am goingto fill in the gap to make sure
that all students can have thoseservices that they need.
And so when you're doing thatthrough equitable math
practices, there's so manydifferent ways that you do this,
(08:29):
not just math practices, youcould do it in any, uh, scope of
education, whether that's, youknow, English class, science,
whatever, by just giving themvarious ways of understanding
and various opportunities tolearn and various opportunities
to express their learning and toexpress how they're
understanding a concept.
So for instance, you could do aproject based learning activity
(08:50):
around Pi Day that is also evenculturally responsive, where
you're tying in different waysfor students to express
themselves and express howthey've learned the math, how
they understood Pi, how theyunderstand the background of Pi.
Instead of doing a boringworksheet where you just say,
okay, here's Pythagoras, okay,yeah, da da da.
No, spice that baby up, okay?
You're talking about Pi Day.
(09:11):
This is one of the mostimportant parts of math culture
that we celebrate in our mathclassroom.
Do you wanna talk to us about aspecific thing that has been
built in your culture aroundmath?
Then let's bring it out.
That's an equitable practice.
If the students are like, Idon't feel comfortable learning
math in just this structural,um.
you know, desk and all thisother stuff, can you maybe spice
your room up a little bit?
(09:32):
Can you maybe put some things onthe wall where they do learning
walks when they're able to goand they're able to see what
each other have put on the walland learn from each other?
How are you helping your studentfeel comfortable as they're
learning and assisting themwhere they are, at that specific
moment.
Those are just some slightexamples of equitable math
practices.
You have so much with like cloudcomputing, which means you're
(09:52):
uploading things on the cloud.
You're giving students QR codes,to stimulate their interest and
to give them knowledge in a waythat's not just a boring
worksheet.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:01):
I'm listening to this and I think like,
equity's gotten such a likeweird, people are so weird about
it.
They don't understand, theythink it means one thing.
So as you're explaining it, I'mkind of like, okay, hold on a
second.
You're basically just sayinglike, give every student a shot.
Dr. India White (10:16):
Thank you.
That's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
Right?
Like
Dr. India White (10:18):
This is not a racially focused thing, and I'm
going go right there for themain elephant in the room.
So people always emphasizeequity to mean servicing black
students or dealing with blackissues or Hispanic issues and
always highlighting race.
Yes, even though race is onelens and even gender and things
like that are lenses of equity,that is not the whole approach
(10:41):
when you're dealing with equityin the area of education.
When you're talking about equityand education, you are talking
about this student needs tolearn 1 plus 1 equals 2.
What resources do we have at thetable today that will help them
learn 1 plus 1 equals 2.
It's not that, here, let's learnabout, you know, this whole
different, historical, culturalthing that has nothing to do
(11:04):
with this particular lesson, no.
And I'm not knocking culture andI'm not knocking cultural
relevance.
What I'm saying is put things inproper perspective and, and, and
they have to stop believing thateverything is indoctrination,
it's not.
Okay, whenever you are doingequity, you're saying, I am
doing what I can as a teacher tomeet the needs of that
particular student each day.
(11:24):
Do they need a pencil?
Then give them a pencil, please.
Do they not eat?
You got some, some, you know,peanut butter crackers or
something you could give'em fromthe, the cupboard or from the
nurse?
You know, did, did the kid cutthemselves?
Well then do you have a bandaidor a bandage where you can
assist that?
Those are equitable practices.
It's not all race related andit's so annoying.
I am African American, and yes,this is, Black History Month,
(11:46):
I'm thankful to be AfricanAmerican, I love my race, but
the attack of, Oh, equity isonly dealing with race, it's a
false narrative.
And I want to, I want to dishhope for everybody here to let
you know that as an educator, ifyou are doing equitable
practices, continue to love yourkids, continue to do what you
know is best for your kids andlearn how to chew the meat and
(12:10):
spit out the bones wheneveryou're looking at certain things
Vanessa Vakharia (12:13):
What does that mean?
Dr. India White (12:13):
On in social media.
So when you chew the meat andspit out the bones, say you have
a piece of chicken or a piece ofsteak or something, you get the
good part and you spit out thepart you don't need.
You spit out the parts that aredistractions.
You spit out the parts that areirrelevant, the parts that are
damaging.
You spit it out.
That's what we have to do aswe're doing this work of equity
because we know we're doingwhat's right for students.
(12:34):
And so we have to ignore thenoise.
You have to ignore everythingelse that is saying that we're
harming someone, that it'sabuse.
No, it's not.
When it comes down to equity ina classroom, please keep it in
the right context.
Some people are taking it andblowing it way out of proportion
and making teachers feel likethey are In handcuffs.
They can't do their job.
(12:55):
They can't love kids.
They can't give a kid a pencil.
They can't ask a student, hey,that's crying, hey, what's wrong
with you?
Is everything okay?
Those are equitable practices.
And so I think that it's becausepeople aren't doing the, they're
not doing their own research torealize the difference between
equity and then other, you know,terminology that they've heard
that is very triggering.
And now equity has become atrigger word where people feel
(13:17):
like they're being punchedupside the head whenever you say
the word equity, they feel likethey've done something wrong.
And it should have never gottento this point, because we do
equitable practices every day,whether we want to or not.
Look in an airport, you go tothe airport to simply check your
luggage, get up the ramp, get upthe escalator.
The escalator is an equitablepractice.
An elevator is an equitablepractice.
(13:39):
So, students with disabilitiesthat can't get up to, you know,
the classroom on the stairsbecause they have a wheelchair,
you have a ramp.
When are we going to starthaving these right
conversations?
What we're doing is we areharming the experiences of
students and opportunities forcommunity leaders to even come
in and support at a greatermeasure, whether that's fiscally
(13:59):
or coming in and, and donatingand things like that, because
they're afraid because theydon't want to get canceled and
they don't want to, you know, bea part of this hate stuff and I
don't blame them.
I think it's sad that they haveto now cower out in a corner
because people don't understandwhat equity is.
It's providing resources andaccommodations.
Why is race the pivotal part ofthat.
(14:21):
It should have never gotten tothat.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:23):
My god.
I'm so
Dr. India White (14:24):
And the thing is, if you take away equitable
practices, what are you going toreplace it with?
Okay, so you say, I don't wantequity.
I don't want equitablepractices.
Okay.
Tell me what you want then.
So if you don't want a studentto have pencils, or, you know,
they're hungry, you don't wantto support them.
If the student, you know, needsa ramp for the wheelchair, and
you're taking away ramps now,you're not giving funding for
(14:46):
that.
Come on now, because when theycut funding, that's what they're
doing.
So if you're cutting that, if astudent, no habla ingles, and
you're cutting the funding forthat student to be able to
transition, what are youreplacing that with?
That is question.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:00):
Well, what's the answer?
What do people want?
What are people saying?
Dr. India White (15:02):
There is no answer! There is no replacement.
It's, we cut this from you, andthat's it.
So how are you to service, howare you going to service our
babies?
What are you going to do?
That's my thing is how are yougoing to help them if you take
away all of the accommodationsand resources that we, we're
(15:24):
giving our students a fair and afree and appropriate public
education.
If we have signed up for that,then we need to do what it
takes.
Seeing that parents have trustedus with their kids 8 hours plus
a day.
Those kids, some of them willget hungry.
Some of them will mess theirpants, you know, in the grades K
(15:44):
5, some of them will forgettheir pencil at home.
So what are we going to do tofill in those gaps?
Those are equitable practices.
What are we going to do?
What are we going to do to takecare of schools that have safety
hazards students, that have tobe in environments where the
students, the there's bugs androaches and rats and all this
(16:05):
other stuff as they learn, whatare we going to do to
accommodate for these kids?
That that's my biggest question.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:14):
First of all, I really have never looked at
equity that way.
Like, that's why I actuallywanted to speak with you.
I don't understand equity.
You know, you read all the booksand whatever, whatever, but I
still like, I must be missingsomething because it's either
too simplistic or I don'tunderstand why everyone's so
mad, but you've put it in such agood way.
But my question is, cause asyou're talking, I'm like, so
what the fuck is everyone'sproblem?
(16:35):
And I wonder, are you, like,into Brene Brown at all?
I'm really into this likescarcity, abundance stuff.
And I'm like, one of the thingsshe talks about is like so much
of our, and a lot of people talkabout this, but like the idea
that like, when we're trying totake stuff away from other
people, when we don't want giveother people stuff, it's from
our own fear of scarcity.
(16:55):
And I wonder if you think yeah,like the reason, like, I don't
want these kids to have theseaccommodations is because I
can't have, and if I can't havethem, do you think there's
something there?
Dr. India White (17:05):
It's a fear.
It's a fear of, there's a coupleof theories and I'm not saying I
I'm with any of these.
Um, there is one, kind of wayof, seeing this that I've heard
on, on the street, um, basicallythat says, Okay, so since we've
provided these, uh, resourcesand accommodations, students of
(17:25):
color or diverse students arenow getting the positions that,
you know, everybody else, youknow, Europeans were supposed to
get.
And now the Europeans are out ofa job or out of an opportunity
because the quota has to be metto let someone of a
marginalized, a diversecommunity come in.
And so some people say that thatwas a buzz around why
(17:49):
affirmative action was cut, wasbecause some others, right, some
people were afraid that if wecontinue to have those
opportunities, then themarginalized communities are
going to be our bosses.
They're going to take over andthey're going to have, they're
going to have the wealth.
And I think to be honest, Ithink if people stop living in
(18:11):
fear and just did what was rightby their neighbor and, um, gave
everybody a fair chance.
The cookies are going to crumblein an equitable and a just
manner.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:22):
Yes.
Dr. India White (18:22):
We We won't have to worry about, Oh, I'm not
gonna have job.
If you are marketable andvaluable, you'll have a job.
Now, if you got a job and youweren't ever competent, karma
will meet you, and you're notgoing to have that job anyway.
Um, you know, whether or notsomebody is going to take it or
not, you'll, you'll eventuallylose it because you're not
competent.
So my thing is, I think peopleshould focus on their own sense
(18:43):
of competency and value and, andwhat they bring to the table.
Stop trying to pull downeverybody else that they see
have worked hard, that pulledthemselves up from their own
bootstraps or no bootstraps atall and made something out of
their lives.
You should be happy and proud ofthat person and cheering them on
and saying, Hey, how can I comealongside you and support you,
(19:03):
and is there anything I can do?
And you know, the opportunitiesthat have been afforded to me to
help service you.
That's what we should bethinking.
We should be having a pure heartby this.
I think people, they needsomeone to blame.
It's almost like I can't getahead because them.
And it's like, wait, wait, wait,wait a second.
Especially when you're talkingabout diverse people, especially
(19:24):
in particular, AfricanAmericans, who built much of
this country, and you're worriedthat they are a threat, but can
we really keep it real?
African Americans have neverreally even tapped into wealth
until the 1950 ish sixties, youknow?
So, I mean, we've had all theseother years, right.
(19:47):
where African Americans did nothave access to wealth or to
building, um, their communities.
And they even had times wherethey were attacked in their
communities.
Rosewood is an example of that.
And so we've had attacks in theAfrican American community, but
yet African American outlierscontinue to bounce up and do
great things.
And then they're like, they evenassimilate.
(20:10):
They assimilate.
They culturally assimilate to bea part of society and to be
accepted and to let people knowwe are not a threat.
We are here in peace.
Can I say something on behalf ofthe African American community?
We are here in peace.
We are here in peace.
Our skin color should not be aweapon.
We should not walk into the roomand be a threat.
We should be welcomed with peaceand love.
(20:32):
And with people saying, you knowwhat, I want to give you an
opportunity and I'm going togive you the benefit of the
doubt.
And I'm going to give you a fairchance.
And see you face value and notbe afraid of you and not feel
like, okay, now that you'rehere, how can I cancel you?
Or now that you're here, how canI take your ideas and put my
face on it?
Or how can I see how I canslight you not pay you for your
work?
Or how can I say that you feelthe stereotypical norms of being
(20:55):
loud and brash and angry andhard to deal with and difficult?
How can I instead grow beyondthat and walk in love and walk
in support?
I don't know where we missed it,our nation in particular is
really going through, I thinkit's, it's, it's a scary place
where we really have to startlooking and seeing, okay, are we
(21:17):
going to continue to do thisliberty and justice for all?
Is that still going to be a partof the pledge of allegiance?
Are we still going to, um, treateverybody the way we want to be
treated?
Like what really is going onnow, America, that is the
biggest question.
Can I choose to go above hateand choose to love people that
(21:39):
look different from me?
I can't tell you, how manyjewels and blessings I've had
from people from diversebackgrounds, European, Indian,
Asian, African, beautiful peoplethat have molded me and helped
me as a leader, that I would notbe where I am today had I not
had those wonderful, beautifulpeople who are still a part of
(22:01):
my tribe today, like I wouldhave missed out on a lot about
life if I hadn't given people afair chance.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:09):
Well I hate that you had to come on my
podcast and announce that youcome in peace.
And I hate that you felt likeyou had to do that, but i'm so
happy you did like I'm so beyondhappy you did, but I'm so sorry
that like you have to.
Like that fucking sucks.
Dr. India White (22:27):
It's tough.
It's tough because, um, becauseof what people see in the media,
what they hear, there's thisunderlying assumption that
there's that angry black woman,black women just, they just
something under their craw,they're just so ticked off all
the time.
Some of us are happy, some of usloving.
Sometimes people fight you,through what their ancestors
(22:49):
went through or like history,like, I don't know if they're
trying to be noble to theirgrandparents, like, I don't, I
don't get it.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:55):
you were talking about affirmative action
and you're like, you know,people keep saying things like,
Oh, people of color are nowlike, you know, in these
positions only because we haveaffir, only because we made
these accommodations.
Does this ever happen to you?
Cause it happens to me all thetime, both in math ed or in my
band where people are like, Oh,well, I saw your keynoting this
thing.
Like, great.
I guess it really works thatyou're a woman of color.
And I'm like, does that happento you?
Dr. India White (23:18):
Unfortunately, yes.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:20):
Isn't that f, oh my god I'm swearing more than
I've ever sworn.
Dr. India White (23:23):
1 of the 1st times, I was a senior in high
school and we had just got ouracceptance letters of
university.
And so I had a 4.
25 GPA.
I was a senior.
I had 32 credits.
I only needed 28 credits.
I was in 13 clubs.
I worked part time.
And I applied to all theuniversities, every university I
(23:45):
applied to, I got accepted in.
Well, the one I wanted to go towas University of Florida.
And so when I got my acceptanceletter, go Gators, at the
University of Florida, one ofthe students in my class says,
Oh, you're going to Universityof Florida?
Because he also got accepted toUniversity of Florida, um, and
he's a white male and he said,Oh, you got accepted, he says,
(24:08):
must've been affirmative action.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (24:10):
Oh my god I just choked myself.
Ugh! What did you do, what didyou say, how did you feel?
Dr. India White (24:17):
I was the only Black.
So I silenced myself.
I was muted.
A lot of your"only Black" areseen as tokens and are seen as
the only one, and so we'retreated sometimes like tokens.
It's horrible.
Because it's like, yeah, you'rein this space, but you know,
it's affirmative action.
Like it can't be from your ownmerit.
That's the hurtful part, whenpeople say stuff like that, it's
(24:40):
like, they assume that upstairsis just empty.
Like there's just some peasrunning around.
Like, I don't have a brain toformulate thought to process
stuff.
So that's the only annoying partfor me is like, when people are
like, oh wait, you actually aresmart, like, well, actually
Vanessa Vakharia (24:58):
oh my god, people say that to me all the
time.
Dr. India White (25:00):
You actually got a doctorate, like a real,
like a real one or,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:05):
not the one that Vanessa bought.
Oh,
Dr. India White (25:10):
Drtoday.com, 450 dollars.
We need to start something likethat.
But anyway.
Um, so, you know, my thing is,just having your intelligence
dismissed.
Or you're black, so your work isnon scholarly.
You know, I've had that saidtoo, your work is non scholarly.
What do you mean, my work's notscholarly?
I did the work, I did theresearch.
(25:31):
So this is what Black people gothrough.
Is you get in the space, butthen it's like you're totally
slighted and discredited and yougo through discriminations and
abuse and biases and then you'remuted and then you don't have a,
an advocate.
So there's no one that's goingto say back off of her, back off
(25:51):
of them, don't say that to them,it's not right.
And that's the hurtful part.
And that is why people ask, whydo certain students not break
away from the fold and actuallypursue a path of education?
Why would they?
Why would they leave theirculture, and those that love
them, and opportunities amongtheir culture, to try to climb
these ladders where it's lonelyand it's painful.
(26:14):
And even when you attained adoctorate, you're still seen as
incompetent and that you don'tknow what you're doing.
You're non scholarly and thatyou're just the token.
So let's talk about that.
Why, why, why the tokenmentality?
Why can't it be, you know what,I see everyone face value, every
African American, every one of adiverse background is amazing
(26:34):
and has the competency to putout a wonderful product.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:39):
It's insane.
It's, the whole thing is socrazy and so wild because like,
I'm listening to this and like,I am on the same page.
I always have been, but what Idon't understand is how anyone
could listen to this and belike, well, like, what would
your possible counterargument beunless you legit were like,
well, I think they're dumberthan white people, like
literally that would have to beyour argument, you literally
(27:01):
think they're inferior.
Dr. India White (27:02):
some people, unfortunately they do have that
bias.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:07):
they do! It's funny because I do so much work
with like women in STEM and I'musing air quotes because people
are always like, well, how do weget women involved?
And I'm like, what fuckingteenage girl is like, Oh, I know
I want to go into an industrywhere people are sexist and
there are microaggressions andit's hard for me to, like, why
would you want to do that?
Like, no one wants to do that.
So it's our job to make thesespaces more inclusive.
(27:27):
But, what I really want to talkto you about now, because this
is like, we don't even have thatmuch time left, but this ties in
so well is like, because we'vetalked so much about what is,
what is so beyond important.
I didn't even plan to talk toyou about this today.
And I'm just like, I'm so gladwe did because I needed to hear
it and everyone needs to hearit.
But one of your big things isgrit, and listening to you
speak, I'm like, well, nofucking shit.
(27:48):
You've had to develop an entirepractice around grit.
Dr. India White (27:51):
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:52):
Tell me
Dr. India White (27:52):
about it,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:53):
go, tell me
Dr. India White (27:54):
about grit.
You know, as a first generationstudent and, you know, learning
about grit, the light bulbreally connected when I was
studying persistence, um, andunderstanding persistence of
first generation students in mydissertation at the University
of Florida.
And I found that intrinsicmotivation and grit was
definitely some of the factorsthat contributed to their
success.
(28:15):
And that's when it, boom, it hitme.
This is what I've had my wholelife.
I went from a homeless shelterinto a college dorm overnight.
Okay.
I was homeless those two years,it was crazy, but I was in
calculus while homeless, andstill was able to pull out I
think a B in that class, andthen go on to University of
Florida as a homeless kid andmajor in math and now here I am
today, wrote 45 books and it wasall
Vanessa Vakharia (28:36):
What?!
Dr. India White (28:37):
and,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:38):
45 books?
That's insane!
Dr. India White (28:41):
Yeah, 45 and counting.
And so, know, it's, it's justone of those things.
I just decided, you know, weonly live once on this side.
I do believe in God, I dobelieve in eternal life and all
that, I do believe in that, butI'm saying you live once in this
life with everybody around you,you have one opportunity to make
impact.
So why not do it with a bang?
(29:02):
Why not contribute in a way thatwill leave a stamp when you're
gone, that people will say theydid that thing.
And I said, what do I want mylegacy to be?
I want them to say that girl hadgrit.
She taught us how to have grit.
You know, yeah, she loved Godtoo, she taught us how to have
grit and, and that's, that'swhat I want.
So I have to be the firstexample.
(29:24):
So when I was studying that atUniversity of Florida and I
found from the first generationstudents, grit was it, I was
like, this is a well kept secretand I am going to expose it.
And then I love Dr.
Duckworth and her work on grit.
And I just kind of wanted tochampion her work as well.
And so I had the opportunity todo a TEDx.
And they came to me and theysaid, you know, apply for this,
(29:46):
see what happens.
And then when I saw it, it waslike the power of, and then you
fill in the blank.
I'm like, well, the power ofgrit, everybody knows you need
grit.
And I went on to do that.
And it was like, I'm nowfulfilling my purpose.
And whenever I see people areable to bounce back from low
motivation and people are ableto try again, and people are
able to make great things happenin their lives, I know that grit
(30:09):
is it.
And I'm helping them to becomegrittier and they're developing
their grit.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:13):
Okay, so what does, I wanna know, so it's
funny, like I'm writing a book,Math Therapy, now, and I,
Dr. India White (30:18):
Good for
Vanessa Vakharia (30:19):
It's, it's, thanks, that's so nice, India,
it's interesting because I, gritgets such a like bad reputation
now, I find, like I've hadpeople, right, like, so what do
define grit as to like a mathstudent?
Dr. India White (30:32):
So GRIT is Great Resilience In Time.
Grit is simply being able totake your resilience, which we
all have, and saying, I'mchoosing to be resilient in this
moment to fulfill thisparticular purpose in this
certain amount of time, becauseI have something, it's either a
part of my purpose, or I'm goingto get a reward, or it's going
(30:54):
to help me for the next part ofmy journey.
That is what it's all about.
Everybody needs grit.
Everybody that says I'm going tocollege.
Why?
Cause I want to become this.
Why?
So that I can give back orbecause I want to carry on my
parents legacy, or, you know, Iwant to start that business or I
want to do something new.
That's why.
But you have to measure itwithin a certain amount of time.
(31:16):
And that's where people getlost.
Grit is an innate trait that iswithin all of us, where when you
have a trait of grit, you'reable to, build that trait, like
a muscle.
You're able to say, okay, I needmore grit, what do I need to do
to harness my self control?
What do I need to do to harnessmy emotions so that I can stay
focused on this journey?
Like that's what grit does is ithelps you to really hone in and
(31:40):
harness in time and harness inyour purpose, so that you can
really continue to move forwardand not fall off the wayside, be
distracted, or allow laziness toget the best of you.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:51):
I really actually like that because I
think the way people think of itis in a way of like, Oh, when
you tell kids about grit, you'reblaming them for like all the
systemic shit that's holdingthem back.
And the way you're putting it isno, like, regardless of whatever
your circumstances are in thatmoment, you can make a choice.
You're not like, well, too bad,like you can all make a million
dollars if you just get ittogether, you're kind of like,
(32:13):
how do you do the best you canto be resilient, am I getting
right?
Dr. India White (32:17):
You're spot
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
How do you define resilience?
Like, what's resilience to you?
Dr. India White (32:21):
Um, so resilience is your ability to
bounce back through a hard time.
It's your ability to continue tomove forward.
Whenever you've had a hardshipor something, your ability to
bounce back and move forward.
You develop an emotional ormental system within yourself to
say, okay, come hell or highwater, I'm moving forward.
I'm going forward, I'm bouncingback, I'm going to make
something great of this.
(32:42):
I'm going to recycle the bad inthis situation.
I'm going to take my lemons andmake lemonade.
That's resilience.
So the thing is grit did have abad rap.
People thought it was just likeworking out and things.
Grit is what everybody needs.
grit is what everyone has.
And so I think that the bad rap,some people said it was for
middle class.
No, the grit is for everyone.
(33:04):
Some people were like, Oh, gritis just for those that work out.
No.
Grit is for everyone and it'sfor each particular field of
life, whether it's academic,whether it's, um, You know, a
business, whether you need griton the hospital bed, like you
got to get better and you, yougot to start, you know,
believing that you're going toget better, whether you're
dealing with grief and you haveto believe, you know, that this
(33:27):
isn't the end and, and somethinggreat will come out of this.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:31):
Do you feel like this, because this, you
know, my whole thing is aboutmath therapy and math trauma and
how we heal, and I feel likethere's a real place for like
teaching kids skills around gritin order to like, like you said,
get them through the toughtimes.
Have you had like specificexperiences or applications of
grit when it comes to like mathtrauma?
Dr. India White (33:50):
So two examples I can recall.
The first one is when my brotherpassed away, I was homeless.
And then, um, about.
about a couple of months later,my brother passed and, um, I
remembered having to go back topre calculus class to take the
final exam, studying whilewiping my eyes, um, writing
(34:14):
Bible scriptures, doing whateverI can to stay on top of things.
It was the hardest time of mylife, but I was able to bounce
back and push through.
Um, and I would say that thatreally, um, it just taught me
that you can't give up no matterwhat.
And the way I was able to bounceback was I was able to take that
pain and that, that sorrow andthat grief.
(34:36):
And I dedicated the rest of myperformances in the future to my
brother.
So I remember saying, bro, goingto get through this for you.
And I even said a prayer to theLord, I'm Christian.
I said, God, I said, if you canget me through this, I know you
can get me through any chapterof my life.
And it was a covenant that Imade with God.
Like we're going to get throughthis life together.
(34:59):
And it was through grit.
So that was one example.
And then I remember, anotherexample of math trauma, you
know, being in my calculusclass, and my teacher told me,
he said, India, this isn't, um,he said, you're stupid.
You'll never understand calculusand you'll never major in math.
Why don't you go do somethingthat you and your people can do.
(35:21):
And, yeah.
That's what he said.
So I had to go to his classevery day and be embarrassed,
humiliated, didn't have, youknow, support, but I knew my
purpose was bigger than justthat class and just that moment.
And so I would harness enoughgrit to say, I'm going to ignore
the noise and do what I need todo beyond this moment.
(35:42):
Like, so I'm going to besuccessful in this moment and,
and keep this like between meand God, and then use that to
get into the next moment.
And that's what I've had to do.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
It sounds like there's a real spiritual
component to grit for you.
Dr. India White (35:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Um, I think grit is, I thinkit's the driving force of
everybody's life.
When you wake up in the morning,when you choose to wake up and
work out or choose to eat a bowlof healthy cereal versus pigging
out over a bunch of sausages andeggs, or, you know, whatever you
choose to do, the freeness ofyour life, the free will, when
(36:20):
you put your mindset to anythingand you take a step forward in
something, it's because grit,you had enough grit, enough
stamina to say, I'm going to goforward today.
I'm going to make it a good daytoday.
I'm going to choose to apply forthat job.
I'm going to choose to go backto school.
I'm going to choose to buy mydoctorate today.
Whatever you do.
(36:41):
That's
Vanessa Vakharia (36:45):
That was best full circle moment.
Okay.
I love it.
We have to get to the final twoquestions.
I'm so, I didn't even ask youhalf my questions, but it's
good, this was so great.
Okay, what is the one thingyou'd like to see change about
the way math is taught inschools?
Dr. India White (36:59):
I wish that there was more, advocating for
students of diverse backgroundsso that they didn't seem like
they always have to have watereddown math, they always have to
sit in the back of theclassroom, or they always have
to be on a disciplined school toprison pipeline type of,
trajectory.
I wish that it was more like,you know what?
Let me actually listen to whatJohnny has to say, or what
Rashad had to say.
(37:20):
Let me stop living in a bubbleor having a pre assumption about
them or a bias.
Um, let me live beyond the biasand see them, you know, face
value and give them a fairchance.
I wish that there was just moreadvocacy and more agents of
change that could really helpbring that forth.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:39):
And, and what if someone listened to all this
and they were like, I love allyour work on grit, but like
India, I'm just not a mathperson.
Dr. India White (37:46):
my response to them is, uh, you are a math
person, uh, you balance acheckbook, you get up every day,
you check the time, you are ableto, use math whenever you're
cooking, you're able to use mathon the road, you look at the
GPS, you're able to, determinehow much time you have left for
a particular, uh, places you'retrying to go to.
And I would say to beencouraged.
(38:07):
The reason why people feel likethey're not a math person is
because they've had some type oftrauma or some type of negative
experience.
You might not be a rocketscientist.
But you're still a math person.
So I want to encourage everybodyto say you are definitely still
a math person.
And if you had the rightteacher, you would have been
able to build that confidenceeven more.
But even if you don't have theright teacher, hang out with
people like me, uh, and we'llbuild your confidence over time.
(38:30):
You'll be just fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:31):
we'll build you, we'll buy you a doctorate
in math, and you're gonna feelgreat
Dr. India White (38:34):
That's right.
You'll get your honourarydoctorate.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:37):
Tell everyone where to find you.
Tell us all the things.
You have like a million things.
Dr. India White (38:41):
Sure.
So, um, you can find me on mywebsite, www.india-white.com.
You can schedule a free strategycall with me.
And then of course there's myemail,
india.white.123@gmail.com.
And then you can also reach meon my social media, Twitter is
@indiespeaknteach.
Instagram is@ind1238, that'sindi238 my um LinkedIn handle is
(39:07):
@theindiawhite My Facebookhandle is@msindiawhite, M S I N
D I A and the word white.
TikTok is@DrIndiaWhite.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:15):
You have to change this! These all need to
be the same!
Dr. India White (39:20):
Yeah.
YouTube is@indiawhite123.
What happened was some peoplestole some of these before so
this is what I have.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:28):
Ok, we'll put these all on the show notes
page,
Dr. India White (39:30):
Excellent.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:31):
Ok India, thank you so much for sharing so
much of yourself, for sharingyour passion, but also for
sharing like some really hardstories.
And I know that I've learned alot, and I'm sure everyone
listening has, and I just wantto know so much more about you,
so let's go get those honorarydoctorates together and have a
little ceremony and pop somechampagne and hang out!
Dr. India White (39:51):
Yes! Sounds good.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:53):
Okay, wow, I am capital I inspired.
What about you guys?
I mean, I think the biggesttakeaway is the idea that equity
isn't just about race.
That's going to stick with mefor a long, long time.
I can't wait to hear what youguys thought and whether or not
this has changed your thoughtsabout grit and how it might
actually play out in a usefulway in your classroom practice.
So don't be shy.
Let me know.
(40:15):
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
(40:38):
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
The reason why people feel like they're not a
math person is because they'vehad some type of trauma or some
type of negative experience.
You might not be a rocketscientist.
But you're still a math person.
And if you had the rightteacher, you would have been
able to build that confidenceeven more.
But even if you don't have theright teacher, hang out with
people like me, and we'll buildyour confidence over time.
You'll be just fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, hello! I have a treat foryou today.
Her name is Dr.
India White, and she's an experton grit in the classroom.
She's legit TED Talk famous, andour interview was so inspiring.
I don't know about you, butlately I feel like the concept
of grit has been totallymisused, turned into a classroom
(01:06):
poster and left for kids tofigure out how to action
themselves without anydirection.
But India defines grit in such aunique and inspiring way, and
it's rooted in resilience.
We also discuss how it feels tobe tokenized or dismissed as a
minority, and how equity isabout so much more than just
race, and finally, howsurprisingly easy it is to get a
doctorate.
Also, I feel like this needs adisclaimer that I'm not advising
(01:29):
you to get a fake doctorate, butlike, I may get one myself.
I haven't decided yet.
Okay! Have fun!
Dr. India White (01:37):
Oh my god, this is this whole thing is going to
be you by the end of it.
I'm like, I'm signing up for myPhD.
Go for it.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:43):
I just want someone to give it to me.
Like, you know how they
Dr. India White (01:45):
You can pay for that.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
like,
Dr. India White (01:47):
Just pay, I think it's$450.
People pay for fake doctoratesall the time.
Find a university, and thenthey'll have like some kind of
like honorarium, doctorate formthat you fill out.
And then you pay$450, whatever,and you have a doctorate.
Congratulations.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:03):
Fuck right off.
What are you
Dr. India White (02:05):
All those doctorates.
When I got my doctorate, I hadabout four people apply for
doctorates.
Um, just so that they could sayI'm doctor too, I, hey, I'm
doctor too.
Go for it.
Go be a doctor, go apply.
I thought to get a fakedoctorate, maybe in business or
something, because, you know,I'm so busy out here, but I a
doctorate in business.
So, you know, I can get anotherdoctorate or, hey, if I want
(02:25):
five doctorates just pay for it.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:27):
This seems really inexpensive.
This sounds like the mostAmerican thing I've ever
Dr. India White (02:30):
Look it up.
I'm so serious.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:32):
I'm going to look it up.
Dr. India White (02:33):
They call them honorary doctorates.
And you do a ceremony andeverything.
The only thing is
Vanessa Vakharia (02:38):
No, shut up
Dr. India White (02:38):
I'm not lying.
They do a ceremony for you.
They give you a robe,everything, like you actually
went through school for fouryears at a university, and they
honor you.
And the reason why they dohonorary doctorates, I think
like Missy Elliot or someone hadan honorary doctorate, the
reason why they do it is becausethey understand like certain
people are in the field andthey're famous, they're the
(02:59):
experts, they're good at whatthey do, and they don't have
time to go to school becausethey're so busy servicing
everybody else.
So they say, well, you deserve adoctorate.
Some people really do like somepeople they serve 25 years, 30
years, they've gotten greatresults.
Okay, great.
Like for instance, if you giveMark Zuckerberg a doctorate in
information sciences, probablywell deserved.
Um, you know, Oprah, doctoratein media, something like that.
(03:21):
But there are some people whohave served in fields for maybe
two years, but they're like, eh,I want a doctorate too, shoot,
you know, well then, go, go getone, 450 dollars, you can get a
doctorate.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:34):
The best part about this is, we've not even
started our interview and I feellike you're already doing what
you do best.
Like, I literally came on here,I said I wanted something, and
in five minutes or less, you'vetold me exactly how get it.
Dr. India White (03:47):
Yeah! That's it.
That's why I'm here.
Here to help.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:52):
It's, this is so fucking funny.
I
Dr. India White (03:54):
Hey, we could get doctorates together.
You want to apply?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:56):
Let's get them.
Like,
Dr. India White (03:58):
Hey, I want a doctorate in business.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:01):
In business and I want one in therapy.
Okay.
And we'll do like a whole photoshoot.
Okay.
I love this.
So this is happening.
Great.
How are you so good at this?
How have you already convincedme of what I need with my life?
Dr. India White (04:11):
I don't know.
I think, well with the honorarydoctorate thing.
I think everybody's been in thatboat of, Oh, I want a doctorate,
you know, but I really did someresearch because, you know, and
then of course, you know, aftergetting a real doctorate and
going through that, whoa, I sawa lot of people that were like,
you know what, we saw what youwent through and no thanks, so,
where's the easy way out?
So, I don't know, I think justfrom experience and hearing
(04:35):
people's stories.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:36):
Okay.
But you are, I mean, you're anauthor, you're a speaker, you're
an educational consultant, andyou're a coach.
And I feel like you haveliterally just coached me.
I want to kind of talk aboutthis, I feel like you're doing
so much in the educationalspace, and I really don't know
you, and literally within threeminutes, I'm like, oh, my God,
like, you are actually asuperhero.
(04:57):
You've like simplified thisgreat big thing and just
factually told me how to get it.
You've made me feel not badabout paying 450 dollars and for
everyone's going to call medoctor by the time this episode
comes out.
So how do you like, what, whatis your role in doing this in
education?
Who are you coaching and whatare you coaching them about?
Dr. India White (05:14):
So after spending many years in the
classroom, and knowing that Ihad the it, I had something, but
I just couldn't really pinpointit.
Um, I was like, well, maybe I'mjust good with kids cause I just
know how to communicate.
Or maybe I just know how to havea good relationship.
But then it was deeper thanthat.
When I started to see studentsthat had level one test scores
(05:35):
come back to me with levelthree, level four, level five,
level five, level five, levelfour, level five, level, and it
was just like, okay, it's deeperthan that then.
It's not just relationships, I'mactually able to further
results, um, and help people getwhat they want.
And I think it's because Iunderstand how to teach and how
to motivate and uplift students,teachers, and principals.
(05:58):
And so it spilled out from justthe classroom to actually
teaching teachers, because I hada wonderful principal in
Hillsborough County in Tampa,and he was like, India, I see
more than you, you know, youjust staying behind these four
walls.
You need to be out there.
Like there's more to you thanjust this.
And the look in his face, he wasdead serious and I was like,
(06:21):
Hmm, maybe I need to give this ashot, but what does that look
like?
But I knew that, throughteaching grit, teaching how to
be passionate about what youwant, and then of course,
removing limitations andbarriers.
Because I don't think it's fairthat we need to go through life
feeling like we have oppressionon us or feeling like we can't
evolve into some greatsuperstar, which all of us have
(06:43):
in us, we should not feel thatwe have to be limited by someone
else or by someone else'sopinion or by some mistake we
made in our past.
We should not live in fear, weneed to live beyond that.
We need to walk in faith, weneed to walk in greatness and we
need to own our greatness andown our purpose and fulfill our
purpose through grit.
(07:04):
So my thing is, I know I havethe tools, the resources, the
research, and the experience tocome alongside wonderful
teachers, principals,superintendents, to really help
develop and motivate studentsthrough grit and also through
implementing equitable mathpractices in particular, to
close the achievement gap.
So that's my purpose.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:26):
I'm like so fired up.
I feel like I'm going to likecry, but I'm also like really
excited.
Like, I don't know what I'm evenfeeling right now, but other
than like, I believe you.
And I, I have a question.
Like, so you've mentioned gritand equitable practices multiple
times.
Can you define what equitablepractices mean to you and what
grit means to you?
Dr. India White (07:46):
So NCTM did a wonderful job back in 2000 and
they said that equity is when aleader provides reasonable, um,
accommodations and supports tostudents as needed to promote
access and attainment for alllearners.
And so what that says is thatI'm going to meet that student
where they are and provide theservices that they need, no
matter if they're deaf and hardof hearing, no matter if they
(08:08):
are a student with a disability,if they are emotionally, if they
are visually impaired, if theyare dealing with trauma, if they
are two years behind, if theyhave a various linguistic or
cultural backgrounds, I am goingto fill in the gap to make sure
that all students can have thoseservices that they need.
And so when you're doing thatthrough equitable math
practices, there's so manydifferent ways that you do this,
(08:29):
not just math practices, youcould do it in any, uh, scope of
education, whether that's, youknow, English class, science,
whatever, by just giving themvarious ways of understanding
and various opportunities tolearn and various opportunities
to express their learning and toexpress how they're
understanding a concept.
So for instance, you could do aproject based learning activity
(08:50):
around Pi Day that is also evenculturally responsive, where
you're tying in different waysfor students to express
themselves and express howthey've learned the math, how
they understood Pi, how theyunderstand the background of Pi.
Instead of doing a boringworksheet where you just say,
okay, here's Pythagoras, okay,yeah, da da da.
No, spice that baby up, okay?
You're talking about Pi Day.
(09:11):
This is one of the mostimportant parts of math culture
that we celebrate in our mathclassroom.
Do you wanna talk to us about aspecific thing that has been
built in your culture aroundmath?
Then let's bring it out.
That's an equitable practice.
If the students are like, Idon't feel comfortable learning
math in just this structural,um.
you know, desk and all thisother stuff, can you maybe spice
your room up a little bit?
(09:32):
Can you maybe put some things onthe wall where they do learning
walks when they're able to goand they're able to see what
each other have put on the walland learn from each other?
How are you helping your studentfeel comfortable as they're
learning and assisting themwhere they are, at that specific
moment.
Those are just some slightexamples of equitable math
practices.
You have so much with like cloudcomputing, which means you're
(09:52):
uploading things on the cloud.
You're giving students QR codes,to stimulate their interest and
to give them knowledge in a waythat's not just a boring
worksheet.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:01):
I'm listening to this and I think like,
equity's gotten such a likeweird, people are so weird about
it.
They don't understand, theythink it means one thing.
So as you're explaining it, I'mkind of like, okay, hold on a
second.
You're basically just sayinglike, give every student a shot.
Dr. India White (10:16):
Thank you.
That's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
Right?
Like
Dr. India White (10:18):
This is not a racially focused thing, and I'm
going go right there for themain elephant in the room.
So people always emphasizeequity to mean servicing black
students or dealing with blackissues or Hispanic issues and
always highlighting race.
Yes, even though race is onelens and even gender and things
like that are lenses of equity,that is not the whole approach
(10:41):
when you're dealing with equityin the area of education.
When you're talking about equityand education, you are talking
about this student needs tolearn 1 plus 1 equals 2.
What resources do we have at thetable today that will help them
learn 1 plus 1 equals 2.
It's not that, here, let's learnabout, you know, this whole
different, historical, culturalthing that has nothing to do
(11:04):
with this particular lesson, no.
And I'm not knocking culture andI'm not knocking cultural
relevance.
What I'm saying is put things inproper perspective and, and, and
they have to stop believing thateverything is indoctrination,
it's not.
Okay, whenever you are doingequity, you're saying, I am
doing what I can as a teacher tomeet the needs of that
particular student each day.
(11:24):
Do they need a pencil?
Then give them a pencil, please.
Do they not eat?
You got some, some, you know,peanut butter crackers or
something you could give'em fromthe, the cupboard or from the
nurse?
You know, did, did the kid cutthemselves?
Well then do you have a bandaidor a bandage where you can
assist that?
Those are equitable practices.
It's not all race related andit's so annoying.
I am African American, and yes,this is, Black History Month,
(11:46):
I'm thankful to be AfricanAmerican, I love my race, but
the attack of, Oh, equity isonly dealing with race, it's a
false narrative.
And I want to, I want to dishhope for everybody here to let
you know that as an educator, ifyou are doing equitable
practices, continue to love yourkids, continue to do what you
know is best for your kids andlearn how to chew the meat and
(12:10):
spit out the bones wheneveryou're looking at certain things
Vanessa Vakharia (12:13):
What does that mean?
Dr. India White (12:13):
On in social media.
So when you chew the meat andspit out the bones, say you have
a piece of chicken or a piece ofsteak or something, you get the
good part and you spit out thepart you don't need.
You spit out the parts that aredistractions.
You spit out the parts that areirrelevant, the parts that are
damaging.
You spit it out.
That's what we have to do aswe're doing this work of equity
because we know we're doingwhat's right for students.
(12:34):
And so we have to ignore thenoise.
You have to ignore everythingelse that is saying that we're
harming someone, that it'sabuse.
No, it's not.
When it comes down to equity ina classroom, please keep it in
the right context.
Some people are taking it andblowing it way out of proportion
and making teachers feel likethey are In handcuffs.
They can't do their job.
(12:55):
They can't love kids.
They can't give a kid a pencil.
They can't ask a student, hey,that's crying, hey, what's wrong
with you?
Is everything okay?
Those are equitable practices.
And so I think that it's becausepeople aren't doing the, they're
not doing their own research torealize the difference between
equity and then other, you know,terminology that they've heard
that is very triggering.
And now equity has become atrigger word where people feel
(13:17):
like they're being punchedupside the head whenever you say
the word equity, they feel likethey've done something wrong.
And it should have never gottento this point, because we do
equitable practices every day,whether we want to or not.
Look in an airport, you go tothe airport to simply check your
luggage, get up the ramp, get upthe escalator.
The escalator is an equitablepractice.
An elevator is an equitablepractice.
(13:39):
So, students with disabilitiesthat can't get up to, you know,
the classroom on the stairsbecause they have a wheelchair,
you have a ramp.
When are we going to starthaving these right
conversations?
What we're doing is we areharming the experiences of
students and opportunities forcommunity leaders to even come
in and support at a greatermeasure, whether that's fiscally
(13:59):
or coming in and, and donatingand things like that, because
they're afraid because theydon't want to get canceled and
they don't want to, you know, bea part of this hate stuff and I
don't blame them.
I think it's sad that they haveto now cower out in a corner
because people don't understandwhat equity is.
It's providing resources andaccommodations.
Why is race the pivotal part ofthat.
(14:21):
It should have never gotten tothat.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:23):
My god.
I'm so
Dr. India White (14:24):
And the thing is, if you take away equitable
practices, what are you going toreplace it with?
Okay, so you say, I don't wantequity.
I don't want equitablepractices.
Okay.
Tell me what you want then.
So if you don't want a studentto have pencils, or, you know,
they're hungry, you don't wantto support them.
If the student, you know, needsa ramp for the wheelchair, and
you're taking away ramps now,you're not giving funding for
(14:46):
that.
Come on now, because when theycut funding, that's what they're
doing.
So if you're cutting that, if astudent, no habla ingles, and
you're cutting the funding forthat student to be able to
transition, what are youreplacing that with?
That is question.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:00):
Well, what's the answer?
What do people want?
What are people saying?
Dr. India White (15:02):
There is no answer! There is no replacement.
It's, we cut this from you, andthat's it.
So how are you to service, howare you going to service our
babies?
What are you going to do?
That's my thing is how are yougoing to help them if you take
away all of the accommodationsand resources that we, we're
(15:24):
giving our students a fair and afree and appropriate public
education.
If we have signed up for that,then we need to do what it
takes.
Seeing that parents have trustedus with their kids 8 hours plus
a day.
Those kids, some of them willget hungry.
Some of them will mess theirpants, you know, in the grades K
(15:44):
5, some of them will forgettheir pencil at home.
So what are we going to do tofill in those gaps?
Those are equitable practices.
What are we going to do?
What are we going to do to takecare of schools that have safety
hazards students, that have tobe in environments where the
students, the there's bugs androaches and rats and all this
(16:05):
other stuff as they learn, whatare we going to do to
accommodate for these kids?
That that's my biggest question.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:14):
First of all, I really have never looked at
equity that way.
Like, that's why I actuallywanted to speak with you.
I don't understand equity.
You know, you read all the booksand whatever, whatever, but I
still like, I must be missingsomething because it's either
too simplistic or I don'tunderstand why everyone's so
mad, but you've put it in such agood way.
But my question is, cause asyou're talking, I'm like, so
what the fuck is everyone'sproblem?
(16:35):
And I wonder, are you, like,into Brene Brown at all?
I'm really into this likescarcity, abundance stuff.
And I'm like, one of the thingsshe talks about is like so much
of our, and a lot of people talkabout this, but like the idea
that like, when we're trying totake stuff away from other
people, when we don't want giveother people stuff, it's from
our own fear of scarcity.
(16:55):
And I wonder if you think yeah,like the reason, like, I don't
want these kids to have theseaccommodations is because I
can't have, and if I can't havethem, do you think there's
something there?
Dr. India White (17:05):
It's a fear.
It's a fear of, there's a coupleof theories and I'm not saying I
I'm with any of these.
Um, there is one, kind of wayof, seeing this that I've heard
on, on the street, um, basicallythat says, Okay, so since we've
provided these, uh, resourcesand accommodations, students of
(17:25):
color or diverse students arenow getting the positions that,
you know, everybody else, youknow, Europeans were supposed to
get.
And now the Europeans are out ofa job or out of an opportunity
because the quota has to be metto let someone of a
marginalized, a diversecommunity come in.
And so some people say that thatwas a buzz around why
(17:49):
affirmative action was cut, wasbecause some others, right, some
people were afraid that if wecontinue to have those
opportunities, then themarginalized communities are
going to be our bosses.
They're going to take over andthey're going to have, they're
going to have the wealth.
And I think to be honest, Ithink if people stop living in
(18:11):
fear and just did what was rightby their neighbor and, um, gave
everybody a fair chance.
The cookies are going to crumblein an equitable and a just
manner.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:22):
Yes.
Dr. India White (18:22):
We We won't have to worry about, Oh, I'm not
gonna have job.
If you are marketable andvaluable, you'll have a job.
Now, if you got a job and youweren't ever competent, karma
will meet you, and you're notgoing to have that job anyway.
Um, you know, whether or notsomebody is going to take it or
not, you'll, you'll eventuallylose it because you're not
competent.
So my thing is, I think peopleshould focus on their own sense
(18:43):
of competency and value and, andwhat they bring to the table.
Stop trying to pull downeverybody else that they see
have worked hard, that pulledthemselves up from their own
bootstraps or no bootstraps atall and made something out of
their lives.
You should be happy and proud ofthat person and cheering them on
and saying, Hey, how can I comealongside you and support you,
(19:03):
and is there anything I can do?
And you know, the opportunitiesthat have been afforded to me to
help service you.
That's what we should bethinking.
We should be having a pure heartby this.
I think people, they needsomeone to blame.
It's almost like I can't getahead because them.
And it's like, wait, wait, wait,wait a second.
Especially when you're talkingabout diverse people, especially
(19:24):
in particular, AfricanAmericans, who built much of
this country, and you're worriedthat they are a threat, but can
we really keep it real?
African Americans have neverreally even tapped into wealth
until the 1950 ish sixties, youknow?
So, I mean, we've had all theseother years, right.
(19:47):
where African Americans did nothave access to wealth or to
building, um, their communities.
And they even had times wherethey were attacked in their
communities.
Rosewood is an example of that.
And so we've had attacks in theAfrican American community, but
yet African American outlierscontinue to bounce up and do
great things.
And then they're like, they evenassimilate.
(20:10):
They assimilate.
They culturally assimilate to bea part of society and to be
accepted and to let people knowwe are not a threat.
We are here in peace.
Can I say something on behalf ofthe African American community?
We are here in peace.
We are here in peace.
Our skin color should not be aweapon.
We should not walk into the roomand be a threat.
We should be welcomed with peaceand love.
(20:32):
And with people saying, you knowwhat, I want to give you an
opportunity and I'm going togive you the benefit of the
doubt.
And I'm going to give you a fairchance.
And see you face value and notbe afraid of you and not feel
like, okay, now that you'rehere, how can I cancel you?
Or now that you're here, how canI take your ideas and put my
face on it?
Or how can I see how I canslight you not pay you for your
work?
Or how can I say that you feelthe stereotypical norms of being
(20:55):
loud and brash and angry andhard to deal with and difficult?
How can I instead grow beyondthat and walk in love and walk
in support?
I don't know where we missed it,our nation in particular is
really going through, I thinkit's, it's, it's a scary place
where we really have to startlooking and seeing, okay, are we
(21:17):
going to continue to do thisliberty and justice for all?
Is that still going to be a partof the pledge of allegiance?
Are we still going to, um, treateverybody the way we want to be
treated?
Like what really is going onnow, America, that is the
biggest question.
Can I choose to go above hateand choose to love people that
(21:39):
look different from me?
I can't tell you, how manyjewels and blessings I've had
from people from diversebackgrounds, European, Indian,
Asian, African, beautiful peoplethat have molded me and helped
me as a leader, that I would notbe where I am today had I not
had those wonderful, beautifulpeople who are still a part of
(22:01):
my tribe today, like I wouldhave missed out on a lot about
life if I hadn't given people afair chance.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:09):
Well I hate that you had to come on my
podcast and announce that youcome in peace.
And I hate that you felt likeyou had to do that, but i'm so
happy you did like I'm so beyondhappy you did, but I'm so sorry
that like you have to.
Like that fucking sucks.
Dr. India White (22:27):
It's tough.
It's tough because, um, becauseof what people see in the media,
what they hear, there's thisunderlying assumption that
there's that angry black woman,black women just, they just
something under their craw,they're just so ticked off all
the time.
Some of us are happy, some of usloving.
Sometimes people fight you,through what their ancestors
(22:49):
went through or like history,like, I don't know if they're
trying to be noble to theirgrandparents, like, I don't, I
don't get it.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:55):
you were talking about affirmative action
and you're like, you know,people keep saying things like,
Oh, people of color are nowlike, you know, in these
positions only because we haveaffir, only because we made
these accommodations.
Does this ever happen to you?
Cause it happens to me all thetime, both in math ed or in my
band where people are like, Oh,well, I saw your keynoting this
thing.
Like, great.
I guess it really works thatyou're a woman of color.
And I'm like, does that happento you?
Dr. India White (23:18):
Unfortunately, yes.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:20):
Isn't that f, oh my god I'm swearing more than
I've ever sworn.
Dr. India White (23:23):
1 of the 1st times, I was a senior in high
school and we had just got ouracceptance letters of
university.
And so I had a 4.
25 GPA.
I was a senior.
I had 32 credits.
I only needed 28 credits.
I was in 13 clubs.
I worked part time.
And I applied to all theuniversities, every university I
(23:45):
applied to, I got accepted in.
Well, the one I wanted to go towas University of Florida.
And so when I got my acceptanceletter, go Gators, at the
University of Florida, one ofthe students in my class says,
Oh, you're going to Universityof Florida?
Because he also got accepted toUniversity of Florida, um, and
he's a white male and he said,Oh, you got accepted, he says,
(24:08):
must've been affirmative action.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (24:10):
Oh my god I just choked myself.
Ugh! What did you do, what didyou say, how did you feel?
Dr. India White (24:17):
I was the only Black.
So I silenced myself.
I was muted.
A lot of your"only Black" areseen as tokens and are seen as
the only one, and so we'retreated sometimes like tokens.
It's horrible.
Because it's like, yeah, you'rein this space, but you know,
it's affirmative action.
Like it can't be from your ownmerit.
That's the hurtful part, whenpeople say stuff like that, it's
(24:40):
like, they assume that upstairsis just empty.
Like there's just some peasrunning around.
Like, I don't have a brain toformulate thought to process
stuff.
So that's the only annoying partfor me is like, when people are
like, oh wait, you actually aresmart, like, well, actually
Vanessa Vakharia (24:58):
oh my god, people say that to me all the
time.
Dr. India White (25:00):
You actually got a doctorate, like a real,
like a real one or,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:05):
not the one that Vanessa bought.
Oh,
Dr. India White (25:10):
Drtoday.com, 450 dollars.
We need to start something likethat.
But anyway.
Um, so, you know, my thing is,just having your intelligence
dismissed.
Or you're black, so your work isnon scholarly.
You know, I've had that saidtoo, your work is non scholarly.
What do you mean, my work's notscholarly?
I did the work, I did theresearch.
(25:31):
So this is what Black people gothrough.
Is you get in the space, butthen it's like you're totally
slighted and discredited and yougo through discriminations and
abuse and biases and then you'remuted and then you don't have a,
an advocate.
So there's no one that's goingto say back off of her, back off
(25:51):
of them, don't say that to them,it's not right.
And that's the hurtful part.
And that is why people ask, whydo certain students not break
away from the fold and actuallypursue a path of education?
Why would they?
Why would they leave theirculture, and those that love
them, and opportunities amongtheir culture, to try to climb
these ladders where it's lonelyand it's painful.
(26:14):
And even when you attained adoctorate, you're still seen as
incompetent and that you don'tknow what you're doing.
You're non scholarly and thatyou're just the token.
So let's talk about that.
Why, why, why the tokenmentality?
Why can't it be, you know what,I see everyone face value, every
African American, every one of adiverse background is amazing
(26:34):
and has the competency to putout a wonderful product.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:39):
It's insane.
It's, the whole thing is socrazy and so wild because like,
I'm listening to this and like,I am on the same page.
I always have been, but what Idon't understand is how anyone
could listen to this and belike, well, like, what would
your possible counterargument beunless you legit were like,
well, I think they're dumberthan white people, like
literally that would have to beyour argument, you literally
(27:01):
think they're inferior.
Dr. India White (27:02):
some people, unfortunately they do have that
bias.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:07):
they do! It's funny because I do so much work
with like women in STEM and I'musing air quotes because people
are always like, well, how do weget women involved?
And I'm like, what fuckingteenage girl is like, Oh, I know
I want to go into an industrywhere people are sexist and
there are microaggressions andit's hard for me to, like, why
would you want to do that?
Like, no one wants to do that.
So it's our job to make thesespaces more inclusive.
(27:27):
But, what I really want to talkto you about now, because this
is like, we don't even have thatmuch time left, but this ties in
so well is like, because we'vetalked so much about what is,
what is so beyond important.
I didn't even plan to talk toyou about this today.
And I'm just like, I'm so gladwe did because I needed to hear
it and everyone needs to hearit.
But one of your big things isgrit, and listening to you
speak, I'm like, well, nofucking shit.
(27:48):
You've had to develop an entirepractice around grit.
Dr. India White (27:51):
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:52):
Tell me
Dr. India White (27:52):
about it,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:53):
go, tell me
Dr. India White (27:54):
about grit.
You know, as a first generationstudent and, you know, learning
about grit, the light bulbreally connected when I was
studying persistence, um, andunderstanding persistence of
first generation students in mydissertation at the University
of Florida.
And I found that intrinsicmotivation and grit was
definitely some of the factorsthat contributed to their
success.
(28:15):
And that's when it, boom, it hitme.
This is what I've had my wholelife.
I went from a homeless shelterinto a college dorm overnight.
Okay.
I was homeless those two years,it was crazy, but I was in
calculus while homeless, andstill was able to pull out I
think a B in that class, andthen go on to University of
Florida as a homeless kid andmajor in math and now here I am
today, wrote 45 books and it wasall
Vanessa Vakharia (28:36):
What?!
Dr. India White (28:37):
and,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:38):
45 books?
That's insane!
Dr. India White (28:41):
Yeah, 45 and counting.
And so, know, it's, it's justone of those things.
I just decided, you know, weonly live once on this side.
I do believe in God, I dobelieve in eternal life and all
that, I do believe in that, butI'm saying you live once in this
life with everybody around you,you have one opportunity to make
impact.
So why not do it with a bang?
(29:02):
Why not contribute in a way thatwill leave a stamp when you're
gone, that people will say theydid that thing.
And I said, what do I want mylegacy to be?
I want them to say that girl hadgrit.
She taught us how to have grit.
You know, yeah, she loved Godtoo, she taught us how to have
grit and, and that's, that'swhat I want.
So I have to be the firstexample.
(29:24):
So when I was studying that atUniversity of Florida and I
found from the first generationstudents, grit was it, I was
like, this is a well kept secretand I am going to expose it.
And then I love Dr.
Duckworth and her work on grit.
And I just kind of wanted tochampion her work as well.
And so I had the opportunity todo a TEDx.
And they came to me and theysaid, you know, apply for this,
(29:46):
see what happens.
And then when I saw it, it waslike the power of, and then you
fill in the blank.
I'm like, well, the power ofgrit, everybody knows you need
grit.
And I went on to do that.
And it was like, I'm nowfulfilling my purpose.
And whenever I see people areable to bounce back from low
motivation and people are ableto try again, and people are
able to make great things happenin their lives, I know that grit
(30:09):
is it.
And I'm helping them to becomegrittier and they're developing
their grit.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:13):
Okay, so what does, I wanna know, so it's
funny, like I'm writing a book,Math Therapy, now, and I,
Dr. India White (30:18):
Good for
Vanessa Vakharia (30:19):
It's, it's, thanks, that's so nice, India,
it's interesting because I, gritgets such a like bad reputation
now, I find, like I've hadpeople, right, like, so what do
define grit as to like a mathstudent?
Dr. India White (30:32):
So GRIT is Great Resilience In Time.
Grit is simply being able totake your resilience, which we
all have, and saying, I'mchoosing to be resilient in this
moment to fulfill thisparticular purpose in this
certain amount of time, becauseI have something, it's either a
part of my purpose, or I'm goingto get a reward, or it's going
(30:54):
to help me for the next part ofmy journey.
That is what it's all about.
Everybody needs grit.
Everybody that says I'm going tocollege.
Why?
Cause I want to become this.
Why?
So that I can give back orbecause I want to carry on my
parents legacy, or, you know, Iwant to start that business or I
want to do something new.
That's why.
But you have to measure itwithin a certain amount of time.
(31:16):
And that's where people getlost.
Grit is an innate trait that iswithin all of us, where when you
have a trait of grit, you'reable to, build that trait, like
a muscle.
You're able to say, okay, I needmore grit, what do I need to do
to harness my self control?
What do I need to do to harnessmy emotions so that I can stay
focused on this journey?
Like that's what grit does is ithelps you to really hone in and
(31:40):
harness in time and harness inyour purpose, so that you can
really continue to move forwardand not fall off the wayside, be
distracted, or allow laziness toget the best of you.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:51):
I really actually like that because I
think the way people think of itis in a way of like, Oh, when
you tell kids about grit, you'reblaming them for like all the
systemic shit that's holdingthem back.
And the way you're putting it isno, like, regardless of whatever
your circumstances are in thatmoment, you can make a choice.
You're not like, well, too bad,like you can all make a million
dollars if you just get ittogether, you're kind of like,
(32:13):
how do you do the best you canto be resilient, am I getting
right?
Dr. India White (32:17):
You're spot
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
How do you define resilience?
Like, what's resilience to you?
Dr. India White (32:21):
Um, so resilience is your ability to
bounce back through a hard time.
It's your ability to continue tomove forward.
Whenever you've had a hardshipor something, your ability to
bounce back and move forward.
You develop an emotional ormental system within yourself to
say, okay, come hell or highwater, I'm moving forward.
I'm going forward, I'm bouncingback, I'm going to make
something great of this.
(32:42):
I'm going to recycle the bad inthis situation.
I'm going to take my lemons andmake lemonade.
That's resilience.
So the thing is grit did have abad rap.
People thought it was just likeworking out and things.
Grit is what everybody needs.
grit is what everyone has.
And so I think that the bad rap,some people said it was for
middle class.
No, the grit is for everyone.
(33:04):
Some people were like, Oh, gritis just for those that work out.
No.
Grit is for everyone and it'sfor each particular field of
life, whether it's academic,whether it's, um, You know, a
business, whether you need griton the hospital bed, like you
got to get better and you, yougot to start, you know,
believing that you're going toget better, whether you're
dealing with grief and you haveto believe, you know, that this
(33:27):
isn't the end and, and somethinggreat will come out of this.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:31):
Do you feel like this, because this, you
know, my whole thing is aboutmath therapy and math trauma and
how we heal, and I feel likethere's a real place for like
teaching kids skills around gritin order to like, like you said,
get them through the toughtimes.
Have you had like specificexperiences or applications of
grit when it comes to like mathtrauma?
Dr. India White (33:50):
So two examples I can recall.
The first one is when my brotherpassed away, I was homeless.
And then, um, about.
about a couple of months later,my brother passed and, um, I
remembered having to go back topre calculus class to take the
final exam, studying whilewiping my eyes, um, writing
(34:14):
Bible scriptures, doing whateverI can to stay on top of things.
It was the hardest time of mylife, but I was able to bounce
back and push through.
Um, and I would say that thatreally, um, it just taught me
that you can't give up no matterwhat.
And the way I was able to bounceback was I was able to take that
pain and that, that sorrow andthat grief.
(34:36):
And I dedicated the rest of myperformances in the future to my
brother.
So I remember saying, bro, goingto get through this for you.
And I even said a prayer to theLord, I'm Christian.
I said, God, I said, if you canget me through this, I know you
can get me through any chapterof my life.
And it was a covenant that Imade with God.
Like we're going to get throughthis life together.
(34:59):
And it was through grit.
So that was one example.
And then I remember, anotherexample of math trauma, you
know, being in my calculusclass, and my teacher told me,
he said, India, this isn't, um,he said, you're stupid.
You'll never understand calculusand you'll never major in math.
Why don't you go do somethingthat you and your people can do.
(35:21):
And, yeah.
That's what he said.
So I had to go to his classevery day and be embarrassed,
humiliated, didn't have, youknow, support, but I knew my
purpose was bigger than justthat class and just that moment.
And so I would harness enoughgrit to say, I'm going to ignore
the noise and do what I need todo beyond this moment.
(35:42):
Like, so I'm going to besuccessful in this moment and,
and keep this like between meand God, and then use that to
get into the next moment.
And that's what I've had to do.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
It sounds like there's a real spiritual
component to grit for you.
Dr. India White (35:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Um, I think grit is, I thinkit's the driving force of
everybody's life.
When you wake up in the morning,when you choose to wake up and
work out or choose to eat a bowlof healthy cereal versus pigging
out over a bunch of sausages andeggs, or, you know, whatever you
choose to do, the freeness ofyour life, the free will, when
(36:20):
you put your mindset to anythingand you take a step forward in
something, it's because grit,you had enough grit, enough
stamina to say, I'm going to goforward today.
I'm going to make it a good daytoday.
I'm going to choose to apply forthat job.
I'm going to choose to go backto school.
I'm going to choose to buy mydoctorate today.
Whatever you do.
(36:41):
That's
Vanessa Vakharia (36:45):
That was best full circle moment.
Okay.
I love it.
We have to get to the final twoquestions.
I'm so, I didn't even ask youhalf my questions, but it's
good, this was so great.
Okay, what is the one thingyou'd like to see change about
the way math is taught inschools?
Dr. India White (36:59):
I wish that there was more, advocating for
students of diverse backgroundsso that they didn't seem like
they always have to have watereddown math, they always have to
sit in the back of theclassroom, or they always have
to be on a disciplined school toprison pipeline type of,
trajectory.
I wish that it was more like,you know what?
Let me actually listen to whatJohnny has to say, or what
Rashad had to say.
(37:20):
Let me stop living in a bubbleor having a pre assumption about
them or a bias.
Um, let me live beyond the biasand see them, you know, face
value and give them a fairchance.
I wish that there was just moreadvocacy and more agents of
change that could really helpbring that forth.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:39):
And, and what if someone listened to all this
and they were like, I love allyour work on grit, but like
India, I'm just not a mathperson.
Dr. India White (37:46):
my response to them is, uh, you are a math
person, uh, you balance acheckbook, you get up every day,
you check the time, you are ableto, use math whenever you're
cooking, you're able to use mathon the road, you look at the
GPS, you're able to, determinehow much time you have left for
a particular, uh, places you'retrying to go to.
And I would say to beencouraged.
(38:07):
The reason why people feel likethey're not a math person is
because they've had some type oftrauma or some type of negative
experience.
You might not be a rocketscientist.
But you're still a math person.
So I want to encourage everybodyto say you are definitely still
a math person.
And if you had the rightteacher, you would have been
able to build that confidenceeven more.
But even if you don't have theright teacher, hang out with
people like me, uh, and we'llbuild your confidence over time.
(38:30):
You'll be just fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:31):
we'll build you, we'll buy you a doctorate
in math, and you're gonna feelgreat
Dr. India White (38:34):
That's right.
You'll get your honourarydoctorate.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:37):
Tell everyone where to find you.
Tell us all the things.
You have like a million things.
Dr. India White (38:41):
Sure.
So, um, you can find me on mywebsite, www.india-white.com.
You can schedule a free strategycall with me.
And then of course there's myemail,
india.white.123@gmail.com.
And then you can also reach meon my social media, Twitter is
@indiespeaknteach.
Instagram is@ind1238, that'sindi238 my um LinkedIn handle is
(39:07):
@theindiawhite My Facebookhandle is@msindiawhite, M S I N
D I A and the word white.
TikTok is@DrIndiaWhite.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:15):
You have to change this! These all need to
be the same!
Dr. India White (39:20):
Yeah.
YouTube is@indiawhite123.
What happened was some peoplestole some of these before so
this is what I have.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:28):
Ok, we'll put these all on the show notes
page,
Dr. India White (39:30):
Excellent.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:31):
Ok India, thank you so much for sharing so
much of yourself, for sharingyour passion, but also for
sharing like some really hardstories.
And I know that I've learned alot, and I'm sure everyone
listening has, and I just wantto know so much more about you,
so let's go get those honorarydoctorates together and have a
little ceremony and pop somechampagne and hang out!
Dr. India White (39:51):
Yes! Sounds good.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:53):
Okay, wow, I am capital I inspired.
What about you guys?
I mean, I think the biggesttakeaway is the idea that equity
isn't just about race.
That's going to stick with mefor a long, long time.
I can't wait to hear what youguys thought and whether or not
this has changed your thoughtsabout grit and how it might
actually play out in a usefulway in your classroom practice.
So don't be shy.
Let me know.
(40:15):
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
(40:38):
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
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