November 20, 2025 • 42 mins
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From the moment Vanessa met bestselling authors/podcasters Cat and Nat on Breakfast Television, where the 2 moms proudly professed to hate math ... she knew she had to have them on Math Therapy to dig deeper and find out why. They are the definition of unfiltered, so they are a perfect fit!
This interview may be uncomfortable for teachers to hear - honestly, it was difficult for Vanessa at times to not be defensive. But the fact is, we need to know what students and parents are really going through; not just in the classroom but in their entire, completely chaotic modern lives.
About Cat and Nat: (Website, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube)
Between the two of them, bestselling authors & podcasters Cat & Nat have seven kids, zero down time, and an unshakable belief that motherhood shouldn’t feel like solitary confinement.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nat (00:03):
Math has really bad I can't explain to my kid why they're
learning or why it's important.
what I really would wanna sayis, just get through this.
You're gonna use a calculatorfor the rest of your life.
Cat (00:13):
at some point we dim their light and I think teachers and
parents, we have the power tolike ignite it or dim it.
We grind, we grind, we grindthem for the sake of what, I
don't know.
it should be joyful,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:27):
Okay guys, you know I'm all about clickbait and
being very dramatic aboutliterally everything, but I am
not joking when I say thattoday's episode might be the
most controversial one we'veever shared.
Why you ask?
Well, because I interviewed twomoms who have seven kids between
them and give zero fucks aboutmaking it a hundred percent
clear that in spite of all thenumbers I just threw at you,
(00:50):
they hate math.
Catherine Belknap and NatalieTelfer, AKA Cat and Nat, are two
powerhouse mom influencers thathave created an entire"mompire",
dishing real talk about raisingkids in the modern world, their
bestselling authors andpodcasters, and they do not hold
back.
And this interview was nodifferent.
On Math Therapy We're usuallytalking about what's happening
(01:12):
in the classroom.
But I wanted to talk to Cat andNat about the parent perspective
because when it comes to math,we're finding that this
generation is growing up withthe same bad relationship with
math as their parents had.
And it doesn't have to be thatway.
Now guys, when I say this convowill be controversial, I really
mean it.
I can already sense the steamready to blow the AirPods out of
(01:33):
your ears, but I truly believeyou need to hear it.
And here's why.
If you're a parent, this episodewill validate you.
If you think you're a horribleperson for thinking that school
math sucks, and that the way weteach it is bullshit, and you
also feel helpless when it comesto helping your kid, Cat and Nat
will make it very clear thatyou're not alone.
If you're an educator, thisepisode might sting.
(01:54):
It certainly did for me.
But Cat, Annette remind us thatstudents are bringing their
entire lives into math class andparents are treading water.
Trying to just keep these littlehumans alive and out of trouble.
And if parents are stillstruggling to understand why we
need to learn math, how are theysupposed to justify it to their
kids?
If you're none of the above orall of the above and you've
struggled with math at any stagein life, this conversation will
(02:17):
hopefully put a lot of whatyou've been feeling into words.
I'll be honest, it was reallyhard to listen back to this
interview.
I could like feel the very raw,real stress and anxiety that Cat
and not deal with every day.
And I get it when you're worriedthat your kid's gonna get
pregnant behind the circle.
K, you are not worried abouttrigonometry.
Thank you, by the way, Cat, forpainting that picture for us.
(02:38):
But guys, I firmly believe thatjust because the math education
system is broken doesn't mean wegive up on it.
We need our kids to developnumeracy and critical thinking
skills, and I know we can teachin better ways so we can all
stop like losing our minds andconversations like these ones
are a big part of the solution.
So thank you for listening.
I wanna know what it brings upfor you, and I encourage you to
share it with a parent orteacher in your life that needs
(03:00):
to hear it too, because hardconversations are often the
catalyst for change.
I wanna start by acknowledging,'cause I think we may have
forgotten because now, you know,we know each other ish that when
we first met it was because youtwo were hosting breakfast
television and you admittedwithout hesitation that you
hated math.
And I loved it.
(03:21):
Like I loved how real it wasbecause you two represent so
many parents out there, right?
Like parents who are raisingchildren, who did not have a
positive math experience, andyou're kind of carrying that
baggage and trying to manage thetwo.
This is the first time I'veactually had parents on the
podcast.
And I think it's so importantbecause so much of my audience
is teachers, and one of ourbiggest questions as teachers
(03:42):
is, what about the parents?
You know, how do we help theparents?
And I don't think any of usfucking know.
So you two are the experts,you're the moms, and we're gonna
obviously start with your mathtrauma.
But before we do, I just wannasay thanks for being here so
much.
Nat (03:55):
Oh, Vanessa, we love you.
We would be here for youanytime.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:58):
Ugh.
So should we start with alittle, I kind of wanna know
where your math trauma began forboth of you.
Like do either of you have aspecific memory or just
experience with math, or do youwanna just tell us a bit,
because I'm just coming on herebeing like you hate math and I'm
sure I'm simplifying it.
Cat (04:12):
Is it possible to not like it?
can you just not like it?
Like, I don't like caviar
Vanessa Vakharia (04:18):
Yep.
Cat (04:19):
and I don't like cilantro and I don't like math.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:23):
Yeah.
Cat (04:23):
You know, I think people have different brains and I
really tell my kids this and Ithink that you can't be good at
everything, and school expectsyou to be good at everything.
And, you know, we've taken outthe word hate in our house and
we've put in not a lot in commonat the moment with.
So I don't have anything incommon with math.
I don't like the way it looks.
I don't like the way it sounds.
(04:44):
I don't like the wording.
I don't like stupid puzzles thattell you to look backwards, step
upside down, and then figure outthe math problem without just
saying three plus three is nine.
Johnny didn't go to the storeand do three twirls.
Like, just tell me what I'mlooking for.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:58):
Yeah.
Cat (04:58):
You know what I mean?
Like, why are you trying tocomplicate me?
Don't do that.
She's actually really naturallygood with numbers and common
sense numbers and like bankingand stuff, but to me it just
makes me wanna barf.
Nat (05:12):
I mean, I guess I didn't really think too much about
math, up to like grade five,let's say.
And then I, applied to get intosome private schools and I
didn't get in.
And then, so during grade six,my mom put me in, math and
English tutor twice a week toprepare me for the test to get
in to try out again for gradeseven.
And during that time, because Iwas not only learning what I was
(05:34):
learning in school, but I waslearning like advanced, it was
the first time that I was inclass and my teacher would be
like introducing something and Ialready had heard it before and
I felt so smart for like thefirst time.
Because I remember my teachersaying, how do you know that?
And I don't know why my mom waslike, just don't, my mom, don't
tell anyone you're a tutor.
Don't tell anyone you're tryingout for the schools, just so if
(05:55):
you don't make it, it's notgonna be.
So I go, oh, my older brothertaught me, but I had done it the
night before and I was like, itfelt so magical that I actually
knew what they were talkingabout.
Fast forward, get into theschool.
Go to the private school and Istart falling behind just
because, you know, at this pointI'm in grade nine and I just
don't care, not not doing myhomework, but in this private
(06:15):
school, if you're not doing wellthe teacher was really like, I
think you're capable and I thinkyou've fallen behind.
Called in my mom.
We had a meeting, we made aplan, and I ended up being
tutored, but the teacher alsogave me a peer tutor and for
that moment when I had her as mypeer tutor and my teacher and
people literally babysitting mefor a very short period of time,
I understood math and I got it.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:36):
Okay.
Nat (06:37):
Leave the private school, go to the public school, don't
understand anything theteacher's ever saying ever again
for the rest life.
Cat (06:46):
I think kids learn math differently.
I don't think it's a universalway of teaching.
And I think that that's where wehave roadblocks is we were
taught differently.
Mm-hmm.
Than, than our kids are learningright now.
So we actually can't help thembecause it's not correct the way
they're learning.
And we go to help them andthey're like, that's not how we
do it.
And you're like, well, okay.
So it's changed, so we're, wecan't help.
(07:06):
And then they'll go to a mathtutor and they won't do well
necessarily, because that mathtutor, it's not absorbing the
way they're learning.
It's the one subject that'scumulative each, each chapter is
cumulative and I think that it'sa really big disservice because
there's no, it's black and whiteand so there, if you forget to
add a one or care, not show yourwork properly,'cause why one
(07:29):
son's school taught him mentalmath and the next school is
like, you need to show everystep or you're gonna lose marks.
Nat (07:35):
That's frustrating.
Cat (07:36):
There's no consistency.
And so why do we get frustratedwith math?
Because people want to overcomplicate it rather than make
it simple.
Nat (07:43):
Or they're, or someone's simplifying it and then
someone's making it morecomplicated and they're doing it
differently.
And then the kids sort of justfeel really overwhelmed.
We can get to the kids.
I know you were asking about ourtrauma, but um,
Cat (07:53):
We have calculators.
We have calculators.
Yeah.
So if we have a calculator.
Tell a kid, we're teaching youthis for this reason, for your
brain.
Don't just say there's no, theydon't understand why they're
doing it.
Mm-hmm.
Because every, they have accessto technology everywhere.
So if I can go on a computer anddo it, and when I get older,
every, every accountant is Uusing ai.
(08:14):
Why are we not teaching them howto use these things with their
brains and teaching them more?
That makes sense.
Nat (08:20):
That actually is a question that I, I'd like to ask you is,
why do they take math?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:24):
Oh my God, this is so interesting because
obviously I, as a teacher, I'mlistening to this and like so
many things are happening, likemy heart's breaking.
I'm like, oh fuck, she justdoesn't have anything in common
math.
Then I'm listening to half thisstuff and being like, no, like
that's not okay.
And then I'm like, oh, but theydon't understand.
And I actually think this isgonna be so triggering for the
people who are listening rightnow, who are teachers who are
(08:45):
like, but, and I actually thinkthat's why this conversation
exactly needs to fucking happenright now, because this is a
real thing.
Everything you're saying, I wantyou to feel validated for.
I'm just sitting here beinglike, yep, of course that makes
sense.
That would feel shitty.
I actually think, I bet youteachers have their backs up a
little bit right now.
I know I did at some of thecomments being like, well, hold
on.
(09:05):
But no, this is a realexperience of students and
parents and we are here to servestudents.
That's literally the job of ateacher is here to help a
student build a healthyrelationship with math.
And if these are the things thatstudents and parents are
feeling, we need to acknowledgethat.
So, let me actually just answerthat question.
When you say why do studentstake math, I think most teachers
(09:29):
can agree probably with the factthat like, we're all like, like,
'cause I, I'm assuming, and tellme if I'm wrong, that part of
your question is like, why arethey learning half of this shit?
Nat (09:38):
You know when they say like, you learn cursive writing
because it helps develop a partof the brain.
So I assume up to there, butlike, let's say, why do they
have to take grade 10 math?
And also because I feel likeeveryone that I know, including
a lot of parents who are tryingto help with grade 10 and math,
like they don't know if, theydon't remember, if they don't
use it.
So why are they, why do theyhave to take it?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:54):
Okay, so the first thing I would say that I
think is really important forparents to know is it's actually
not your job to teach math.
And I know that sounds reallyhard, like Cat, when you're
saying like, we can't even helpour kids with math because it's
being taught in a different way.
Of course, as a parent, you wantto help your kid, so like, I
hate that and, and I get why,because often parents are like,
well, I've gotta teach the mathto my kid because my kid's not
(10:17):
fucking learning it.
But I think we should separatelike, teachers shouldn't be
teaching math in a way that theparents understand, just so the
parents can help, if that makessense.
And so I say that to be like,'cause I know sometimes it's
like, well this new math, theidea hopefully is that a lot of
our new strategies are going tobe more helpful in the, in the
(10:37):
real world.
So for example, like.
Why are students taking math upto a certain grade level?
A lot of what should be taughtin math is critical thinking,
the ability to think throughproblems and find solutions.
However, you're totally right.
Half of the math we see is like,Johnny went and bought 40
watermelons, dah, dah, dah, dah,duh.
Fill out this formula.
(10:57):
There's no thinking in that.
All we're wanting kids to do isto take a number, plug it into
some shit they've memorized andspit it out.
That's not cool.
They don't, they don't need thatskill.
I think what hopefully willbring hope is that in the math
education community, we'retrying to move away from all of
that.
We're trying to get away fromlike memorizing and rote
learning and getting into like,let's really focus on kids
(11:20):
thinking skills and processingand understanding numbers and
quantities and numeracy.
So when they like go into the reworld and are given some bunk
statistic, they can be like,that sounds like bullshit.
You know, like, but.
But to be fair, and you knowthis'cause I tutor so many kids,
we haven't caught up to that andI'm sure you're seeing that.
You're seeing a lot of shit mathand you're like, why are they
(11:40):
doing this?
The only other thing I'll say iswhen we're like, well, why did
they have to take math up to,let's say, grade 10 or
something?
The truth is, again, let's notfocus on how fucked the
curriculum in schools are, butthe fact is that many university
programs require math as apre-req
Nat (11:56):
Right.
It's like not counting thingsout, like keeping you in the
game until like long enoughwhether your brain might, might
wanna know what you wanna gointo.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:04):
Yes.
And I will say I've, I'vepersonally seen so many students
that have been written off,like, let's say in grade seven.
And you know, they, we used tobe able to stream them in grade
nine, like, oh f fuck it, justtake the workplace math.
And I've worked with them andthey've, they've seen that, oh
my God, I actually like math andI'm good at it and have ended up
like going to med school orwhatever.
And I hate the idea of beinglike, let's write a kid off when
(12:26):
they're like 10 or 11.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, let's give them theoption.
But also to your point, if youhate it and your life sucks and
you don't understand it, to justkeep being like, well, you gotta
do this till grade 10 and we'renot gonna support or help then
there's this whole additionalanxiety.
So I think, anyways, hopefullythat answers the why, but are we
doing it the right way?
(12:46):
No, in many ways.
Now I kind of wanna like Cat,you said at the beginning, I
loved it, right,'cause you'relike, well, I just have nothing
in common with it, and youlisted some things that were
math, right?
Like you were like twirlingaround and doing this kind of
thing and we have calculators,so why this and that.
And that, that broke my heart abit, only not because I'm like
(13:07):
you, you can totally not likecaviar and not like math.
I don't mind that.
It pisses me off because I'mlike, so many of those things
are not like what I would evencall math.
Like it's almost like kind of toNat's question of like, what are
we teaching?
Like you're right, we havecalculators.
So if we were literally sayingto kids, hey, guess what?
We're just gonna do mental mathforever and ever, even though
(13:29):
you have this tool, that seemskind of pointless.
Right?
But like, ideally, like I'm kindof thinking about all the things
that are math that we nevershare with kids or Cat, that you
never like identified as mathand just sort of, I don't know.
Cat (13:44):
That's real world though, right?
Like I think where the, whereyou're seeing breakdowns from
parents is their kids arefrustrated, time is time is
small.
We don't have a lot of time.
When they come home with aworksheet of a hundred questions
and it's like, you know, theyhave to write like the
multiplication a hundred timesor a hundred different ways, or
whatever it is you, and you seetheir frustration, it becomes
your frustration.
(14:05):
So I really think that if theystruggle in math, it becomes a
contentious point because if youcan't support them, then you
have to go elsewhere.
The kids have no time anymore,like there is no more time and
they're in school from, youknow, eight 30 to to three 30 or
four, and then they're cominghome, you're jamming a dinner in
their throats, trying to getthem to do something else they
(14:27):
might like, and then going backto the books to possibly do more
schoolwork, when they'rechildren.
You know, so I think it's reallynot maybe about the subject
because this might be someoneelse's plight in English, or
this might be someone else'splight in French.
I think it's more where do yourkids have pain points?
And the frustration often ismath, you know, and then you
have parents who are going to doRussian math on the weekends
(14:49):
from kindergarten.
And it's actually called that,like I'm not,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:52):
Yeah.
it's the Russian School of Math.
It's actually a
Cat (14:54):
It's a Russian school of math or you know, Spirit of
Math, but they're already goodin math.
So now you have kids who are sofar ahead in math, like it's
like the teachers can't winbecause no one's subscribing to
a program that supportseverybody.
You have kids that are off thechart and then you have kids who
are just not naturally inclinedto math.
(15:14):
So it's like this thing.
Nat (15:16):
And then some teachers, it's like, you know, your kid
kind of connects with them.
When the teacher speaks, theycan hear them, but.
Not every kid is gonna feel thesame way about the way a, a
teacher teaches.
So, um, I, I find it's mathbecause it seems it is probably
not to you, but it feels reallylike abstract when you see all
these letters and numbers all inthe thing in brackets, and none
(15:38):
of it looks like anything thatis a part of the real world.
I feel like kids would need tobe in small groups to learn
based on their learning style.
But there's not enoughresources, that's not enough
resources.
Cat (15:50):
And my daughter did a project, like she defined rent,
see how much it costs.
Mm-hmm.
Like go grocery shopping, get abill.
That wasn't in math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:58):
What,
Cat (15:59):
A no, it was in one of the grade nine, you
Vanessa Vakharia (16:03):
is math.
Cat (16:05):
but that's not what math does.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:07):
Yeah.
Cat (16:08):
So if they had put real world, okay, so let's budget
this, let's balance this budgetsheet, let's figure out taxes.
How do you do your taxes?
That's math.
This is what we're learning isabstract.
You know, if you gave them aformula, I'm like, eventually
you'll plug this into GoogleSheets to, in order to get your
balance for your household andyour taxes.
(16:29):
Well, great.
But like nobody's doing that.
We're hiring accountants.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:35):
A hundred percent.
I remember reading this book, itwas such an amazing book, and he
was like, imagine you'd neverheard a song in your life, like
you'd never heard a song in yourlife.
So you go to this thing calledmusic class, and they're like,
okay, so what you're gonna do istake this paper with lines and
you're gonna draw these blackdots.
Like, don't worry, you'llunderstand why later, but just
memorize where everything go.
Like you'd hate music.
(16:55):
You'd be the fuck is this?
Like, and that's the problemwith math is we're always like,
you'll understand one day.
Whereas if we could actuallyshow them like, math is actually
very cool.
There's all this cool shit.
But like you can't access thatuntil you like go to university
in many cases and by then you'refucked.
Cat (17:11):
Teach them their algorithm numbers and like how much they
can, what's an ROI?
What's your return oninvestment?
Teach them things of theirlanguage that they're, you know.
Like someone should make alesson up with six, seven in it,
you know?
Or like something where it's allof these things that they're
saying that they can relate to,but we're just expecting them to
level up to a place where isn't,it's not interesting.
(17:33):
No one's making it interesting.
So maybe math is veryinteresting.
Yeah, it, it is because we douse it every day, but they don't
use what they're learning atall, and we don't use what
they're learning at all.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:46):
Oh my God.
So can I ask, are either of you,would you identify as being like
anxious around math or are youjust like, no, we just don't
like it?
Nat (17:56):
I would say I don't feel anxious or it's just that I
don't like it.
I just feel like it is so out ofmy, like, out of my league of
the way that I think and the waythat I understand.
And I miss, I've missed, so Imet, like, I really didn't gain
any knowledge, somehow I gotthrough high school, but I
didn't take anything, I didn'ttake anything from math.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:17):
it feels so crazy to say the words, you know
how there are always thosethings like, are you smarter
than a fifth grader?
And like, it's meant to make youfeel stupid for being like, I
can't answer this grade fourquestion.
You guys know I'm a high schoolmath teacher, so I could teach
you like calculus?
Well, okay, that's a bitgenerous.
I haven't done that in a while.
But I could teach, like, youknow, I could teach grade 12
math.
I wrote two kids books forScholastic and it was the
(18:40):
hardest thing.
I was like, I have no ideaactually how to use a protractor
or like to explain why a decimalworks.
I was like, I don't, like youput the.in.
Like I don't like, it'sactually, so just to be like,
Nat (18:53):
Pie.
Pie.
Just
Vanessa Vakharia (18:55):
Just
Nat (18:55):
just.
Just.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:57):
it's you.
'cause we don't learn why.
So it's like, it actually washard.
Like, I was like, this is gradethree math.
And I was like, you know, I, Iwill not tutor below grade nine
math because I actually find itvery challenging.
So like, I just wanna also belike, it doesn't mean like we're
dumb or something'cause we can'tdo something.
A grade four is learning.
It actually is.
Quite challenging in acompletely different way of
(19:18):
thinking.
'cause a lot of that stuff wejust like do, like you go to buy
a pizza and you're like, I don'tknow, like cut it into quarters
and you know what you actuallymean.
Like, you know
Cat (19:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And also, uh, numbers don'tbelong in num in math.
There's no numbers in math, butthere
Vanessa Vakharia (19:32):
can you please explain that statement?
Cat (19:35):
Sorry.
There's no letters.
letters belong in math.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:39):
I was like, pardon?
I was like,
Cat (19:40):
Could you please expand?
There's no letters that belongin math.
Letters don't belong in math.
Numbers belong in math.
Not
Vanessa Vakharia (19:48):
agree to disagree on that one, but that's
okay.
That's
Nat (19:50):
Do the letters represent like things like it's y.
An example for like a car.
Like all those letters representthing.
Cat (19:57):
Just put a picture of a car.
Nat (19:58):
Oh God.
Write a little visual of a realthing.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:02):
Yeah.
I, I feel like that wouldchallenge the people who like,
feel like they're, they havelike art anxiety to have to draw
car instead of the letter
Cat (20:09):
Oh, a stick figure.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:11):
Yeah, it's something to, it's for sure,
something to think about.
Um,
Cat (20:16):
I your open-mindedness.
gonna listen to that feedback.
I'm never gonna apply it, butokay.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
What?
I used to, when I taught Algebrato Kids instead of X and YI
would use hearts and stars, andsome of them just liked it so
much better.
Like, I'd be like, becauseyou're like, you get all caught
up on the fact that it's an X,and again, no one has explained
it to you.
Like if I explained it to you,like I actually feel like you'd
be like.
Cat (20:36):
But X and Y look too much alike too.
It should not be x and y thatthey.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:40):
hot take.
Cat (20:41):
They look, they look really similar on paper, and it's, if
you, when you do two differentsymbols, they look very
different.
Much easier to remember.
I would mix up X and Y no matterwhat, because they look alike.
They're, yeah, they're the samething.
Nat (20:56):
Star, makes, I mean, I, I can imagine would like, that's
so much easier to remember.
Cat (21:00):
X and Y are black in my brain.
Heart and a star are color, soyou know what I
Nat (21:05):
in different shapes.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:06):
It change.
I, I agree.
Again, it just makes thingsinteresting.
It spices things up, like youneed something to, yeah.
And then it's not that hard todraw a heart.
Nat (21:13):
think of kids who are like neurodiverse and they see like
or processed differently.
X and Y are the exact samething.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:20):
My God, I feel like we're already, I mean, the,
even the, the grade 12 teachersare gonna have something to take
away from here, from someone whoprofesses to not know anything
about math, but is reallygetting into the algebra of how
it should be taught, andneurodiverse students.
Okay.
Um, I have a question just to,to move on from this very
algebraic conversation we'rehaving, which I did not expect
to get into, but I'm excitedabout.
Your community is a community ofmoms, right?
(21:42):
Like that's primarily.
Do you guys talk about thisstuff?
Do you talk about math?
Nat (21:48):
No, it's usually an, uh, if, if we're talking about math,
it's usually with frustrationand then people are,
Cat (21:53):
it's homework, it's homework,
Nat (21:54):
it's homework.
We're never like, we're neverhaving a positive, fun
conversation about math with ourcommunity.
You know, one of my, one of our,one
Cat (22:02):
of our kids schools gives time.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:06):
this, this conversation is insane.
Sorry.
Go on.
Cat (22:10):
One of our kids' schools gives time in each class to do
the work, right?
So there are four hour, fourclasses in a day and it's like
an hour and a half or whatever,and they have like 40 minutes to
do their work.
Genius.
Because, genius, because theteacher's there, yeah, if you
are self-driven, you can get itdone, some don't like, you know,
(22:31):
but if you learn thatself-regulation skill, you can
be, I need help with this.
Like put out office hours in thetimes that they're in school
rather than all of these othertimes because there is no time.
Like, it's like, you know, asparents you have so much to
worry about.
Your kids have to bewell-rounded, do
extracurricular, do sports sothey don't get addicted to
drugs.
Then go and be, then havefriends.
(22:53):
Then get a job then, you know,and it like you, it's, you are
worried they're gonna getpregnant behind the Circle K at
the corner store if they're notdoing other things.
That's the messaging we get.
Right?
So he we're then we're like, sitdown, slam your homework in your
mouth.
Oh, and have great mentalhealth, but also look amazing.
(23:13):
Then have a big group of friendsgo do the things on the weekend.
Get straight A's.
'cause you know what, you're notgetting in if you don't get a
99.
Because you know, hundredsaren't getting done these days.
And keep your GPA up all school'cause they're looking back to
grade nine for your grades.
Like the whole thing isludicrous.
So I think that math is part ofa frustration of parents trying
(23:35):
to juggle their kids over mentalhealth and balance in life that
doesn't exist and it falls on usto make things go right, when
there's just not time to makethings.
And then, you know, tutoring'shard because you're paying
extra.
You're trying to find the timefor them to get to class, to go
do it.
It's winter, it's snowing,they're freezing, and you're
(23:57):
like, go do another hour of mathat eight o'clock at night.
Nat (24:00):
Oh God, though, it just sounds really overwhelming,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:02):
I'm so stressed out
Cat (24:05):
Yes but that's what we deal with.
That's what we deal with.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:08):
Well, and I'm also thinking as you, like math
pales in comparison to like thepotential of getting pregnant
behind the Circle K.
Like who the fuck cares?
Nat (24:18):
I know, but you gotta keep, you gotta keep,'em busy.
You know what I mean?
Vanessa Vakharia (24:22):
it's Like you don't have time to worry about
their math identity.
Nat (24:26):
the other thing I find confusing was, my daughter was
in I guess it was a grade 10math, and she walked out with
like a, a really bad mark, likejust a pass.
When she walked out of grade 10without the building blocks, I
was very worried about her grade11 math.
So I decided that if she was ata school where her math class
(24:46):
was three people and she waswalking out with a very low
mark.
In order to pass this grade 11,I wasn't even too worried about
how well she did, I'm not gonnaleave her to a class of 30,
which is, she went from a classof three where she got 50 to a
class of 30.
I'm gonna take it in my ownhands and I am going to get
somebody to take the informationthat she learns at school and
(25:08):
teach it to her the way that shelearns.
And that's what she did at MathGuru.
She met with a girl who shereally connected with, and she
met with her two days a week.
And that girl somehow, Taylor'sjust like, I don't understand
how all of a sudden I understandit.
I think it's her, but I don'tknow if the content was
different, I couldn't believethat she ended up getting an A,
(25:29):
but I don't even know how shedid and I never looked at what
she was learning and I just, Ican't imagine that she went from
having no, like 50% of theknowledge, to the next year
understanding it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:42):
I'm kind of hearing like, there's just so
much emotion around, really,appropriate, I think emotion
around being like.
It is actually really upsettingto think like, my kid might just
be a number to someone and theonly thing they care about is
whether they achieve thisbenchmark that somebody has
decided is like a good benchmarkhere.
And we're not taking intoaccount like what they're
(26:04):
interested in, the fact thatthey might feel like they're
struggling, the fact thatthey're working really hard,
they, they should be rewardedand embraced for being like,
wow.
Like guess what?
You got a 40 last week and todayyou got a 41.
That's fucking awesome.
You know, like.
Cat (26:19):
We're not built that way though.
And our, our, like ourpost-secondary is not built way.
And that they're, they'renumber, they are because that's
what you apply with is numbers
Nat (26:27):
and you are the way, how you talk about and think about
math and for the people, theteachers that will be listening
to this, they're like you.
I do think there are someteachers, oh, amazing teachers,
end up being, yeah.
But I do think there are some,like these are the ones that
care, like really care.
Do I, we have experienced onesthat became teachers, like in
(26:47):
any job and they're just, justtrying to get through, they
don't, I mean, obviously theycan't walk.
Cat (26:52):
That's a lot of work with very little resources.
I don't underestimate that.
I just think that, you know,it's like a systemic issue
because we're dealing, we aredealing with numbers and we're
trying to pump these ki kidsthrough, and we have bell curves
and we have, they feel thepressure.
They get mixed messages becausethey're like, oh, it's what's
holistic here.
Nothing is like, it's such bs.
And the kids know exactly what'sgoing on.
(27:13):
They know some kids, they allknow the, the grades that are
padded.
They like, everybody, it's likethis game we're all playing when
everyone's like, oh, it's howhard you work.
No it's not.
Because the grades, you takeyour top six grades and apply
with that.
That's what you apply with.
That's, that's the end of theday.
So, you know, I think that thepressure they know now of
(27:34):
getting into university is notwhat any of us experienced.
Like it was not like So, and Idon't think we can validate what
they're feeling'cause we didn'tlive it.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:44):
Do you think if we like just imagine a world
where there were no grades?
Okay.
Oh, this is very hard to do, butjust like imagine'cause actually
like getting rid of grading is,not happening, but there's a lot
of experimenting with ithappening.
And like, you know, like in BCfor example, they're not giving
grades until grade nine.
Like you don't get a mark onanything.
Like pretend there was nograding and like somehow math
(28:06):
class was just like, let's alllike learn progress over
product.
Like what way do you learn,let's try teaching you this in a
bajillion different ways.
It's relevant.
Like do you think there'd besome hope there?
Like what would be the thingthat like would give us hope
that maybe
Cat (28:22):
I think you ever get rid of grades.
I think you just have to weighthow hard that child's working.
There will be some kids whoseproduct who pr, whose input
doesn't match their output andthey will always lose.
Right?
Like that's just the way lifegoes.
We have to validate that, youknow, they're, like you said, if
a teacher can take the time andbe like, wow you, I saw how hard
(28:43):
you worked on this test and Iknow the result maybe wasn't
what you hoped for, but I likethe skills you learn in getting
there are gonna take you so muchfurther.
And I think that's on us asparents too, to let them know,
like the fact that you didn'tgive up when it was really hard
is what I look for as anemployer.
You know, and I think that a,what we all have to know is AI
will decimate math in a lot ofways, and it's the way that you
(29:09):
learn and how you are able toprocess or work hard or have
relationships within math,right?
So I think that those are allreal conversations because those
people will win.
I think that we, we just have tolike, you know, we're not
learning for the future andwe're not igniting their
learning lights.
And I think that that's what asparents we get frustrated with
is we want their learning lightsto stay strong because little
(29:32):
kids are so inherently, soexcited to learn.
Yeah.
Like they to learn.
So badly and they get so excitedabout learning new things
Nat (29:39):
And they can tell when their teacher has a passion or
if their teacher, teacher isjust reading from the book.
They can really feel that.
Cat (29:46):
And I think we, we, so at some point we dim their light
and I think that everyone needsto look at why their lights
dimming.
And I think teachers have, youknow, and parents, we have the
power to like ignite it or dimit.
And I think that that's, I thinkwe dim it each year.
They get more and more.
We grind, we grind, we grindthem for the sake of what, I
don't know.
(30:06):
I don't know what, why we grindthem so hard.
So they become older people whojust are stress cases going into
a like I'll never under, itshould be joyful, you know.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:18):
Yeah, and I mean, just to like validate that
whole thing.
I mean the, like the reasonschool was started was because
of the industrial revolution.
The whole purpose of school wasto build like skilled assembly,
sign workers, assembly lineworkers that could follow rules.
Like that's what we needed atthe time.
And the craziest thing is.
It really hasn't changed thatmuch.
(30:40):
Right.
Cat (30:40):
said that.
She's like, I'm 80 and they'redoing the exact same thing.
This is the only industry thathasn't changed.
She's like, this is crazy.
Nat (30:48):
And the classrooms still look the same, smell the same.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:51):
I think this has been so good.
I can, this is such a triggeringconvo and I fucking love it
because it's like, math just hascontinually suffered from the
worst fucking communications PRcrisis of all time.
There's no like, the targetmarket, like here you are and
the kids, here's math educationover here.
There's no communication.
So it you're, it's almost like,you know how you're saying it
sucks that kids don't know whatthey're doing in math, so they
(31:13):
don't like it.
Now there's an additional layerof the parents don't know why
the teachers are doing some ofthe things they're doing.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's like this endless nocommunication
Cat (31:22):
are squeezed, to get in this amount before this thing.
They're squeezed.
Like, I feel very badly forteachers too.
'cause I think most going withthe right heart and so excited
to teach and they get squeezedout of too, right?
Nat (31:33):
You're right.
Math has really bad like, PR.
and I feel like it's so truethat a parent, like, I can't
explain to my kid why they'relearning or why it's important.
In reality, my understanding ofit is, what I really would wanna
say is, just get through this.
You're gonna use a calculatorfor the rest of your life.
Like, this isn't important, it'snot relatable, like that's what
(31:53):
I feel like I would say to them.
I'm not gonna say that to them'cause I don't wanna discourage
but I, you just have to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:00):
Yeah.
Nat (32:01):
There was a moment where there was some really good PR
about.
Uh, girls in stem, girls instem, stem, oh.
And now it's steam.
Like it was big for a while.
I remember it.
I mean, I, I don't know.
And now boys are screwed.
Like now we're screwing theboys, so I don't know
Vanessa Vakharia (32:19):
We Okay.
We that we, we are gonna haveto, there's so much we could
talk about here.
We're gonna have
Nat (32:24):
Well, you're talking just two moms of seven children.
Cat (32:27):
But I, I do wanna say teachers were, I am really
thankful for teachers and Ithink majority of them are, you
know, really doing their bestwith not a lot.
And I do not underestimate that.
And I'm not saying that this ison them at all.
Nat (32:39):
No.
Cat (32:40):
I really do think that teachers are remarkable and you
know, I'm so thankful for them.
I just think that they're doingthe best they can and we are.
Don't communicate with thembecause they're crazy parents
now, so you're not allowed totalk to them like you used to.
So it is, it is challenging withcommunication and.
I am thankful for faculty andyou know, all the people who,
(33:01):
who do their best every day.
'Cause I can't imagine how hardit is for them and how much
resources they put into thesethings for themselves, and money
they buy, an extra time and theydo foster a lot of learning
lights.
It's just some, some, the systemgrinds, grinds everybody.
Including kids, including
Vanessa Vakharia (33:15):
I think that's so well said.
And you said it earlier and Ithink everyone would agree that
it is a systemic issue, right?
It's like we're like, teachersare like at the bottom being
like but a lot of what you saidis, so I think we all need to
hear, and I wanna ask you guysbefore I get to the final, like
quickfire questions, thequestion I get from teachers all
the time is.
cause you know, I talk toteachers about math, anxiety and
math, trauma.
(33:35):
So I'll be like, you know,here's how you prevent it in
your classroom.
Here's how you help studentsheal.
And they'll be like, but what dowe do?
Like what do we do when theparents have math, trauma or the
parents hate math?
Like what can we do?
And like, I know that's a kindof a broad question, but is
there anything like for you two,since you're both like, well,
math really isn't my thing.
Is there something a teachercould do or say that would be
(33:58):
helpful in terms of having toraise kids who need to do math
for a chunk of time.
Cat (34:04):
I think just acknowledging that, know math is hard for
some, and that's okay.
And your kid can still besuccessful even if they're not a
hundred in math.
But together, let's do our bestto support them and make it more
bearable or more enjoyable, theprocess so that they learn how
to learn.
Let's stop focusing on thenumber and let's help them
(34:24):
understand that learning, isn'talways gonna be perfect, but if
we can encourage them to notshut down because they're just
not good at it, that's a biggerlesson.
And I think it's justacknowledging like, it's okay.
Like let's all be okay thatwe're going to, they're gonna
get through it, they have to getthrough it, so let's do the best
we can to support them, ratherthan squeezing a number out of
them, be like, how can I supportyou?
(34:46):
And this is how you can supportme.
And you know, like if we'restruggling, let's think about
ways to problem solve this.
And here's how you can problemsolve at home.
Like, this is what I suggest.
Nat (34:55):
And from a practical, just literally, if, if I were to say
like, how do you make this morelike, entertaining or
interesting is before eachlesson.
Try to give some sort of anexample of how this would be
important to either their brain,their, uh, decision making, uh,
how they would apply this lessonin real life
Cat (35:16):
And maybe talk about ChatGPT.
Like how they can use it as atutor.
Like, you know, that's a really,that is a source some can have
access to, and it really isgreat for kids who maybe are
struggling and, you know, be, beokay with technology and how
they can access it to supporteverybody in the house without
condemning it.
'Cause I think that that'sanother thing, uh, an issue
we're all dealing with is kidsare secretly using it now and
(35:38):
trying to find ways to go aroundit.
But let, I think when teacherstalk about how to incorporate
it, they're like, oh my God,that teacher taught me this
skill and now I can apply it.
And, and you can actually learnfrom practicing in a different
way.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:49):
Yep.
Cat (35:50):
They can teach their kids how they learn.
You are winning if you can justopen up, you know, you like to
write it down, you like to watcha video, like get the parents to
help with that.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
okay, I'm about to do the finaltwo questions, but I wanna know
if you guys ever thought you'dbe on a math podcast.
Like, are you excited?
Nat (36:08):
No, but I You're not like, you're not doing math.
You know what I mean?
We're having conversations.
And you are literally theopposite of what I would think.
Like, uh, I think every personwho's interested in math would
be like,
Cat (36:19):
and I think every person who took math from me would
probably like math.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Totally.
So I think that you're ananomaly.
Yeah.
I'd like to meet more like
Vanessa Vakharia (36:26):
I can't wait to teach you algebra one day
with the X's and Y's and theemojis.
We're gonna have so much fun,Cat.
Nat (36:30):
In In in color.
Please.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:34):
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you guys each onequestion.
This is the final two questionsI ask everyone.
You're each getting one.
Okay?
So the first one, you guys, youguys can pick.
First question is, and we'vekind of touched about this, but
let's say you can only chooseone thing you wanna change about
the way math is taught inschools.
What's it gonna be?
Cat (36:51):
What's the second one?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:52):
The second one?
I feel like that you just did alittle math there, to be honest.
By even just being like, I needto know this.
Cat (37:01):
I reasoned.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:02):
You fucking reason girl.
Okay.
Uh, the second one is if someonewas like, I feel this is a weird
question to ask you,'cause Ikind of like, but okay.
But if someone said, Hey listen,I'm just not a math person, it's
not my thing, I can't learn it.
What would you say?
Cat (37:16):
Oh, you, well, it's a choice.
You two, you're choosing not toright now, you're choosing not
to learn and that's okay.
But you know, you have to lookat where you wanna go with math
and where, look at your,
Nat (37:26):
an adult or a kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:29):
I did not think this was gonna be your
answer.
Nat (37:31):
Because if my friend was like, my friend was like, I'm
just not a math person, I'd belike, who fucking cares me
either.
Cat (37:35):
I think you just have to look at, I think you have to
work backwards if you want.
I always say to my kids, if youwant this result, but you're
doing this, then that doesn'tmatch up.
So what do you want?
If you want this, then you gottago for this.
If you don't want it, then don'tbe worried about it.
But if you wanna go and be amath teacher, you need math.
So you need to get a highermark.
Nat (37:52):
Yeah, and I think the only thing that I'd like to see
changed is just to, um, help.
Them understand, oh, the, like,the practicality of learning and
doing math
Cat (38:01):
and put some colors in there and some emojis.
No, I'm not joking.
Make it a little moreinteresting for the people who
learn differently.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:09):
what I'm laughing at is that I said you
each get to pick one and insteadwhat you, you tricked me into
giving you both, and then youboth answered both of them.
Nat (38:18):
Yeah, so we multiplied by a bunch and got a whole lot of, we
had a sum number of four insteadof two
Vanessa Vakharia (38:25):
I mean, we've now done math for I'd say at
least 5% of this interview.
Okay.
we are gonna close up here.
Where can everyone find you?
Cat and Nat
Nat (38:32):
Oh,@catandnat everywhere.
everywhere that they have it,it's Cat and Nat.
Our podcast is Cat and NatUnfiltered.
We have catandnat.com.
Just everything, everywhere.
Cat and Nat.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:43):
This a really important talk, I think.
It was insane, but it wasimportant.
We might all get canceled.
That's okay.
Nat (38:49):
in the math world.
I'm not worried.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:51):
Well, that is where my career lies, but yeah,
no problem.
I can't believe I'm gonnainterview your daughter
tomorrow.
Now this is like
Nat (38:56):
I know.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:56):
layer.
Nat (38:58):
Well, she has a lot of, like, she's, it's been a journey
for her and so she's got a lotto say and she also has, you
know, really appreciated you,um, giving her like other ways
to think about it.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:10):
Well, we'll see.
Okay guys, we're gonna saygoodbye, but don't hang up quite
yet.
I hate this part.
How do you guys say bye on yourpodcast?
Like what's the
Nat (39:17):
See ya.
We'll just hang up on you.
Thanks for coming.
Bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:21):
There we go.
It's done.
We're done.
Okay, we're done Okay.
I don't know what to say afterthat rollercoaster, like I'm
still kind of speechless and asyou know, that is not normal for
me.
I'll be honest, like it was sucha challenging conversation for
me because the whole time I wastorn between validating their
feelings as parents whiledefending teachers who have to
(39:43):
work.
In a broken system and thereality is that it's all true,
right?
Two things can be true.
And I also felt like my role wassort of to listen.
Like I, I, I wanted to like, notargue, but I kind of wanted to
debate and like defend and belike, but this is why we do
this.
And I sort of realized a fewminutes in.
My role right now is to actuallylisten to their feelings, and
(40:04):
that is the approach I alwayschampion in math class with our
own students.
Our role is not to defend, it'sto listen to our students'
feelings, to make sure they feelseen and heard.
That's often the first step tolike solving the problem and
changing their relationship withmath.
I'm so glad we did this episodebecause teachers and parents are
partners in raising these kidsand everyone benefits if we all
(40:26):
understand each other'sperspective better.
So I wanna put the ball in yourcourt.
And I realize that now all of asudden, I'm a sports metaphor
person, I guess, but okay.
I wanna know, what did thisepisode bring up for you?
What did you agree with?
What did you disagree with?
And I also just had a thoughtlike, do schools need to do more
parent education around this?
(40:48):
Like I know we do a lot ofparent education around content
and how we're teaching math, butdo we need to have more parent
nights around what Nat and Catbrought up?
So for this week's Math Therapyhomework.
I'm thinking, I want you to putyourself in their shoes.
If someone says, we should justbe teaching math the old way or
whatever, I was never good atmath, it's boring, I hate it.
Instead of being mad about itand getting defensive, which I
(41:10):
am very guilty of doing, askthem why they feel that way and
like see if you can empathizeand then respond from that
place.
And I wanna know what happens.
So remember, you can text thepodcast by hitting the link in
your show notes.
You can DM me at the Math Guru,or you can email me at
vanessa@themathguru.ca.
I really want to hear from you.
I know there was a lot in thisepisode, and I'm so curious what
(41:32):
you're thinking and feeling, Andif you've made it this far,
first of all, thank you, yourock.
But more importantly, you are infor a treat because on next
week's episode, I'll be talkingwith Nats daughter Taylor.
She was so honest about whathigh school is really like and
was the perfect compliment tothis week's episode.
So make sure you and everyoneyou know and love are subscribed
to the podcast so you don't missit.
(41:54):
And again, just as a littlereminder, Math Therapy is hosted
by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it isproduced and edited by the
amazing David Kochberg, and themusic you're hearing is by our
band, Goodnight Sunrise.
Nat (42:12):
bye.
Bye bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:13):
Oh, bye ya.
Nat (42:14):
No, I'm saying, you're saying, how do you guys say bye?
We're like, okay.
Where can everybody find you?
Okay, great.
Bye Bye bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:19):
And then you don't hang up.
Nat (42:21):
Yeah, we hang up.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:22):
See, I think it's different because they hang
up and if I was gonna hang up onthem it would be more natural to
say bye.
But I know I'm not hanging up.
Nat (42:29):
Why aren't you hanging up?
Vanessa Vakharia (42:30):
Because we have to like make, why aren't we
hanging up?
Nat (42:35):
You
Vanessa Vakharia (42:36):
because we have to make sure it like, I
don't know.
Don't you have to like make sureit uploads or something?
We have to take a selfie, like Ithink that
Nat (42:41):
Oh, okay.
Oh, we don't do any of that.
Math has really bad I can't explain to my kid why they're
learning or why it's important.
what I really would wanna sayis, just get through this.
You're gonna use a calculatorfor the rest of your life.
Cat (00:13):
at some point we dim their light and I think teachers and
parents, we have the power tolike ignite it or dim it.
We grind, we grind, we grindthem for the sake of what, I
don't know.
it should be joyful,
Vanessa Vakharia (00:27):
Okay guys, you know I'm all about clickbait and
being very dramatic aboutliterally everything, but I am
not joking when I say thattoday's episode might be the
most controversial one we'veever shared.
Why you ask?
Well, because I interviewed twomoms who have seven kids between
them and give zero fucks aboutmaking it a hundred percent
clear that in spite of all thenumbers I just threw at you,
(00:50):
they hate math.
Catherine Belknap and NatalieTelfer, AKA Cat and Nat, are two
powerhouse mom influencers thathave created an entire"mompire",
dishing real talk about raisingkids in the modern world, their
bestselling authors andpodcasters, and they do not hold
back.
And this interview was nodifferent.
On Math Therapy We're usuallytalking about what's happening
(01:12):
in the classroom.
But I wanted to talk to Cat andNat about the parent perspective
because when it comes to math,we're finding that this
generation is growing up withthe same bad relationship with
math as their parents had.
And it doesn't have to be thatway.
Now guys, when I say this convowill be controversial, I really
mean it.
I can already sense the steamready to blow the AirPods out of
(01:33):
your ears, but I truly believeyou need to hear it.
And here's why.
If you're a parent, this episodewill validate you.
If you think you're a horribleperson for thinking that school
math sucks, and that the way weteach it is bullshit, and you
also feel helpless when it comesto helping your kid, Cat and Nat
will make it very clear thatyou're not alone.
If you're an educator, thisepisode might sting.
(01:54):
It certainly did for me.
But Cat, Annette remind us thatstudents are bringing their
entire lives into math class andparents are treading water.
Trying to just keep these littlehumans alive and out of trouble.
And if parents are stillstruggling to understand why we
need to learn math, how are theysupposed to justify it to their
kids?
If you're none of the above orall of the above and you've
struggled with math at any stagein life, this conversation will
(02:17):
hopefully put a lot of whatyou've been feeling into words.
I'll be honest, it was reallyhard to listen back to this
interview.
I could like feel the very raw,real stress and anxiety that Cat
and not deal with every day.
And I get it when you're worriedthat your kid's gonna get
pregnant behind the circle.
K, you are not worried abouttrigonometry.
Thank you, by the way, Cat, forpainting that picture for us.
(02:38):
But guys, I firmly believe thatjust because the math education
system is broken doesn't mean wegive up on it.
We need our kids to developnumeracy and critical thinking
skills, and I know we can teachin better ways so we can all
stop like losing our minds andconversations like these ones
are a big part of the solution.
So thank you for listening.
I wanna know what it brings upfor you, and I encourage you to
share it with a parent orteacher in your life that needs
(03:00):
to hear it too, because hardconversations are often the
catalyst for change.
I wanna start by acknowledging,'cause I think we may have
forgotten because now, you know,we know each other ish that when
we first met it was because youtwo were hosting breakfast
television and you admittedwithout hesitation that you
hated math.
And I loved it.
(03:21):
Like I loved how real it wasbecause you two represent so
many parents out there, right?
Like parents who are raisingchildren, who did not have a
positive math experience, andyou're kind of carrying that
baggage and trying to manage thetwo.
This is the first time I'veactually had parents on the
podcast.
And I think it's so importantbecause so much of my audience
is teachers, and one of ourbiggest questions as teachers
(03:42):
is, what about the parents?
You know, how do we help theparents?
And I don't think any of usfucking know.
So you two are the experts,you're the moms, and we're gonna
obviously start with your mathtrauma.
But before we do, I just wannasay thanks for being here so
much.
Nat (03:55):
Oh, Vanessa, we love you.
We would be here for youanytime.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:58):
Ugh.
So should we start with alittle, I kind of wanna know
where your math trauma began forboth of you.
Like do either of you have aspecific memory or just
experience with math, or do youwanna just tell us a bit,
because I'm just coming on herebeing like you hate math and I'm
sure I'm simplifying it.
Cat (04:12):
Is it possible to not like it?
can you just not like it?
Like, I don't like caviar
Vanessa Vakharia (04:18):
Yep.
Cat (04:19):
and I don't like cilantro and I don't like math.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:23):
Yeah.
Cat (04:23):
You know, I think people have different brains and I
really tell my kids this and Ithink that you can't be good at
everything, and school expectsyou to be good at everything.
And, you know, we've taken outthe word hate in our house and
we've put in not a lot in commonat the moment with.
So I don't have anything incommon with math.
I don't like the way it looks.
I don't like the way it sounds.
(04:44):
I don't like the wording.
I don't like stupid puzzles thattell you to look backwards, step
upside down, and then figure outthe math problem without just
saying three plus three is nine.
Johnny didn't go to the storeand do three twirls.
Like, just tell me what I'mlooking for.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:58):
Yeah.
Cat (04:58):
You know what I mean?
Like, why are you trying tocomplicate me?
Don't do that.
She's actually really naturallygood with numbers and common
sense numbers and like bankingand stuff, but to me it just
makes me wanna barf.
Nat (05:12):
I mean, I guess I didn't really think too much about
math, up to like grade five,let's say.
And then I, applied to get intosome private schools and I
didn't get in.
And then, so during grade six,my mom put me in, math and
English tutor twice a week toprepare me for the test to get
in to try out again for gradeseven.
And during that time, because Iwas not only learning what I was
(05:34):
learning in school, but I waslearning like advanced, it was
the first time that I was inclass and my teacher would be
like introducing something and Ialready had heard it before and
I felt so smart for like thefirst time.
Because I remember my teachersaying, how do you know that?
And I don't know why my mom waslike, just don't, my mom, don't
tell anyone you're a tutor.
Don't tell anyone you're tryingout for the schools, just so if
(05:55):
you don't make it, it's notgonna be.
So I go, oh, my older brothertaught me, but I had done it the
night before and I was like, itfelt so magical that I actually
knew what they were talkingabout.
Fast forward, get into theschool.
Go to the private school and Istart falling behind just
because, you know, at this pointI'm in grade nine and I just
don't care, not not doing myhomework, but in this private
(06:15):
school, if you're not doing wellthe teacher was really like, I
think you're capable and I thinkyou've fallen behind.
Called in my mom.
We had a meeting, we made aplan, and I ended up being
tutored, but the teacher alsogave me a peer tutor and for
that moment when I had her as mypeer tutor and my teacher and
people literally babysitting mefor a very short period of time,
I understood math and I got it.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:36):
Okay.
Nat (06:37):
Leave the private school, go to the public school, don't
understand anything theteacher's ever saying ever again
for the rest life.
Cat (06:46):
I think kids learn math differently.
I don't think it's a universalway of teaching.
And I think that that's where wehave roadblocks is we were
taught differently.
Mm-hmm.
Than, than our kids are learningright now.
So we actually can't help thembecause it's not correct the way
they're learning.
And we go to help them andthey're like, that's not how we
do it.
And you're like, well, okay.
So it's changed, so we're, wecan't help.
(07:06):
And then they'll go to a mathtutor and they won't do well
necessarily, because that mathtutor, it's not absorbing the
way they're learning.
It's the one subject that'scumulative each, each chapter is
cumulative and I think that it'sa really big disservice because
there's no, it's black and whiteand so there, if you forget to
add a one or care, not show yourwork properly,'cause why one
(07:29):
son's school taught him mentalmath and the next school is
like, you need to show everystep or you're gonna lose marks.
Nat (07:35):
That's frustrating.
Cat (07:36):
There's no consistency.
And so why do we get frustratedwith math?
Because people want to overcomplicate it rather than make
it simple.
Nat (07:43):
Or they're, or someone's simplifying it and then
someone's making it morecomplicated and they're doing it
differently.
And then the kids sort of justfeel really overwhelmed.
We can get to the kids.
I know you were asking about ourtrauma, but um,
Cat (07:53):
We have calculators.
We have calculators.
Yeah.
So if we have a calculator.
Tell a kid, we're teaching youthis for this reason, for your
brain.
Don't just say there's no, theydon't understand why they're
doing it.
Mm-hmm.
Because every, they have accessto technology everywhere.
So if I can go on a computer anddo it, and when I get older,
every, every accountant is Uusing ai.
(08:14):
Why are we not teaching them howto use these things with their
brains and teaching them more?
That makes sense.
Nat (08:20):
That actually is a question that I, I'd like to ask you is,
why do they take math?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:24):
Oh my God, this is so interesting because
obviously I, as a teacher, I'mlistening to this and like so
many things are happening, likemy heart's breaking.
I'm like, oh fuck, she justdoesn't have anything in common
math.
Then I'm listening to half thisstuff and being like, no, like
that's not okay.
And then I'm like, oh, but theydon't understand.
And I actually think this isgonna be so triggering for the
people who are listening rightnow, who are teachers who are
(08:45):
like, but, and I actually thinkthat's why this conversation
exactly needs to fucking happenright now, because this is a
real thing.
Everything you're saying, I wantyou to feel validated for.
I'm just sitting here beinglike, yep, of course that makes
sense.
That would feel shitty.
I actually think, I bet youteachers have their backs up a
little bit right now.
I know I did at some of thecomments being like, well, hold
on.
(09:05):
But no, this is a realexperience of students and
parents and we are here to servestudents.
That's literally the job of ateacher is here to help a
student build a healthyrelationship with math.
And if these are the things thatstudents and parents are
feeling, we need to acknowledgethat.
So, let me actually just answerthat question.
When you say why do studentstake math, I think most teachers
(09:29):
can agree probably with the factthat like, we're all like, like,
'cause I, I'm assuming, and tellme if I'm wrong, that part of
your question is like, why arethey learning half of this shit?
Nat (09:38):
You know when they say like, you learn cursive writing
because it helps develop a partof the brain.
So I assume up to there, butlike, let's say, why do they
have to take grade 10 math?
And also because I feel likeeveryone that I know, including
a lot of parents who are tryingto help with grade 10 and math,
like they don't know if, theydon't remember, if they don't
use it.
So why are they, why do theyhave to take it?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:54):
Okay, so the first thing I would say that I
think is really important forparents to know is it's actually
not your job to teach math.
And I know that sounds reallyhard, like Cat, when you're
saying like, we can't even helpour kids with math because it's
being taught in a different way.
Of course, as a parent, you wantto help your kid, so like, I
hate that and, and I get why,because often parents are like,
well, I've gotta teach the mathto my kid because my kid's not
(10:17):
fucking learning it.
But I think we should separatelike, teachers shouldn't be
teaching math in a way that theparents understand, just so the
parents can help, if that makessense.
And so I say that to be like,'cause I know sometimes it's
like, well this new math, theidea hopefully is that a lot of
our new strategies are going tobe more helpful in the, in the
(10:37):
real world.
So for example, like.
Why are students taking math upto a certain grade level?
A lot of what should be taughtin math is critical thinking,
the ability to think throughproblems and find solutions.
However, you're totally right.
Half of the math we see is like,Johnny went and bought 40
watermelons, dah, dah, dah, dah,duh.
Fill out this formula.
(10:57):
There's no thinking in that.
All we're wanting kids to do isto take a number, plug it into
some shit they've memorized andspit it out.
That's not cool.
They don't, they don't need thatskill.
I think what hopefully willbring hope is that in the math
education community, we'retrying to move away from all of
that.
We're trying to get away fromlike memorizing and rote
learning and getting into like,let's really focus on kids
(11:20):
thinking skills and processingand understanding numbers and
quantities and numeracy.
So when they like go into the reworld and are given some bunk
statistic, they can be like,that sounds like bullshit.
You know, like, but.
But to be fair, and you knowthis'cause I tutor so many kids,
we haven't caught up to that andI'm sure you're seeing that.
You're seeing a lot of shit mathand you're like, why are they
(11:40):
doing this?
The only other thing I'll say iswhen we're like, well, why did
they have to take math up to,let's say, grade 10 or
something?
The truth is, again, let's notfocus on how fucked the
curriculum in schools are, butthe fact is that many university
programs require math as apre-req
Nat (11:56):
Right.
It's like not counting thingsout, like keeping you in the
game until like long enoughwhether your brain might, might
wanna know what you wanna gointo.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:04):
Yes.
And I will say I've, I'vepersonally seen so many students
that have been written off,like, let's say in grade seven.
And you know, they, we used tobe able to stream them in grade
nine, like, oh f fuck it, justtake the workplace math.
And I've worked with them andthey've, they've seen that, oh
my God, I actually like math andI'm good at it and have ended up
like going to med school orwhatever.
And I hate the idea of beinglike, let's write a kid off when
(12:26):
they're like 10 or 11.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, let's give them theoption.
But also to your point, if youhate it and your life sucks and
you don't understand it, to justkeep being like, well, you gotta
do this till grade 10 and we'renot gonna support or help then
there's this whole additionalanxiety.
So I think, anyways, hopefullythat answers the why, but are we
doing it the right way?
(12:46):
No, in many ways.
Now I kind of wanna like Cat,you said at the beginning, I
loved it, right,'cause you'relike, well, I just have nothing
in common with it, and youlisted some things that were
math, right?
Like you were like twirlingaround and doing this kind of
thing and we have calculators,so why this and that.
And that, that broke my heart abit, only not because I'm like
(13:07):
you, you can totally not likecaviar and not like math.
I don't mind that.
It pisses me off because I'mlike, so many of those things
are not like what I would evencall math.
Like it's almost like kind of toNat's question of like, what are
we teaching?
Like you're right, we havecalculators.
So if we were literally sayingto kids, hey, guess what?
We're just gonna do mental mathforever and ever, even though
(13:29):
you have this tool, that seemskind of pointless.
Right?
But like, ideally, like I'm kindof thinking about all the things
that are math that we nevershare with kids or Cat, that you
never like identified as mathand just sort of, I don't know.
Cat (13:44):
That's real world though, right?
Like I think where the, whereyou're seeing breakdowns from
parents is their kids arefrustrated, time is time is
small.
We don't have a lot of time.
When they come home with aworksheet of a hundred questions
and it's like, you know, theyhave to write like the
multiplication a hundred timesor a hundred different ways, or
whatever it is you, and you seetheir frustration, it becomes
your frustration.
(14:05):
So I really think that if theystruggle in math, it becomes a
contentious point because if youcan't support them, then you
have to go elsewhere.
The kids have no time anymore,like there is no more time and
they're in school from, youknow, eight 30 to to three 30 or
four, and then they're cominghome, you're jamming a dinner in
their throats, trying to getthem to do something else they
(14:27):
might like, and then going backto the books to possibly do more
schoolwork, when they'rechildren.
You know, so I think it's reallynot maybe about the subject
because this might be someoneelse's plight in English, or
this might be someone else'splight in French.
I think it's more where do yourkids have pain points?
And the frustration often ismath, you know, and then you
have parents who are going to doRussian math on the weekends
(14:49):
from kindergarten.
And it's actually called that,like I'm not,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:52):
Yeah.
it's the Russian School of Math.
It's actually a
Cat (14:54):
It's a Russian school of math or you know, Spirit of
Math, but they're already goodin math.
So now you have kids who are sofar ahead in math, like it's
like the teachers can't winbecause no one's subscribing to
a program that supportseverybody.
You have kids that are off thechart and then you have kids who
are just not naturally inclinedto math.
(15:14):
So it's like this thing.
Nat (15:16):
And then some teachers, it's like, you know, your kid
kind of connects with them.
When the teacher speaks, theycan hear them, but.
Not every kid is gonna feel thesame way about the way a, a
teacher teaches.
So, um, I, I find it's mathbecause it seems it is probably
not to you, but it feels reallylike abstract when you see all
these letters and numbers all inthe thing in brackets, and none
(15:38):
of it looks like anything thatis a part of the real world.
I feel like kids would need tobe in small groups to learn
based on their learning style.
But there's not enoughresources, that's not enough
resources.
Cat (15:50):
And my daughter did a project, like she defined rent,
see how much it costs.
Mm-hmm.
Like go grocery shopping, get abill.
That wasn't in math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:58):
What,
Cat (15:59):
A no, it was in one of the grade nine, you
Vanessa Vakharia (16:03):
is math.
Cat (16:05):
but that's not what math does.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:07):
Yeah.
Cat (16:08):
So if they had put real world, okay, so let's budget
this, let's balance this budgetsheet, let's figure out taxes.
How do you do your taxes?
That's math.
This is what we're learning isabstract.
You know, if you gave them aformula, I'm like, eventually
you'll plug this into GoogleSheets to, in order to get your
balance for your household andyour taxes.
(16:29):
Well, great.
But like nobody's doing that.
We're hiring accountants.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:35):
A hundred percent.
I remember reading this book, itwas such an amazing book, and he
was like, imagine you'd neverheard a song in your life, like
you'd never heard a song in yourlife.
So you go to this thing calledmusic class, and they're like,
okay, so what you're gonna do istake this paper with lines and
you're gonna draw these blackdots.
Like, don't worry, you'llunderstand why later, but just
memorize where everything go.
Like you'd hate music.
(16:55):
You'd be the fuck is this?
Like, and that's the problemwith math is we're always like,
you'll understand one day.
Whereas if we could actuallyshow them like, math is actually
very cool.
There's all this cool shit.
But like you can't access thatuntil you like go to university
in many cases and by then you'refucked.
Cat (17:11):
Teach them their algorithm numbers and like how much they
can, what's an ROI?
What's your return oninvestment?
Teach them things of theirlanguage that they're, you know.
Like someone should make alesson up with six, seven in it,
you know?
Or like something where it's allof these things that they're
saying that they can relate to,but we're just expecting them to
level up to a place where isn't,it's not interesting.
(17:33):
No one's making it interesting.
So maybe math is veryinteresting.
Yeah, it, it is because we douse it every day, but they don't
use what they're learning atall, and we don't use what
they're learning at all.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:46):
Oh my God.
So can I ask, are either of you,would you identify as being like
anxious around math or are youjust like, no, we just don't
like it?
Nat (17:56):
I would say I don't feel anxious or it's just that I
don't like it.
I just feel like it is so out ofmy, like, out of my league of
the way that I think and the waythat I understand.
And I miss, I've missed, so Imet, like, I really didn't gain
any knowledge, somehow I gotthrough high school, but I
didn't take anything, I didn'ttake anything from math.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:17):
it feels so crazy to say the words, you know
how there are always thosethings like, are you smarter
than a fifth grader?
And like, it's meant to make youfeel stupid for being like, I
can't answer this grade fourquestion.
You guys know I'm a high schoolmath teacher, so I could teach
you like calculus?
Well, okay, that's a bitgenerous.
I haven't done that in a while.
But I could teach, like, youknow, I could teach grade 12
math.
I wrote two kids books forScholastic and it was the
(18:40):
hardest thing.
I was like, I have no ideaactually how to use a protractor
or like to explain why a decimalworks.
I was like, I don't, like youput the.in.
Like I don't like, it'sactually, so just to be like,
Nat (18:53):
Pie.
Pie.
Just
Vanessa Vakharia (18:55):
Just
Nat (18:55):
just.
Just.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:57):
it's you.
'cause we don't learn why.
So it's like, it actually washard.
Like, I was like, this is gradethree math.
And I was like, you know, I, Iwill not tutor below grade nine
math because I actually find itvery challenging.
So like, I just wanna also belike, it doesn't mean like we're
dumb or something'cause we can'tdo something.
A grade four is learning.
It actually is.
Quite challenging in acompletely different way of
(19:18):
thinking.
'cause a lot of that stuff wejust like do, like you go to buy
a pizza and you're like, I don'tknow, like cut it into quarters
and you know what you actuallymean.
Like, you know
Cat (19:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And also, uh, numbers don'tbelong in num in math.
There's no numbers in math, butthere
Vanessa Vakharia (19:32):
can you please explain that statement?
Cat (19:35):
Sorry.
There's no letters.
letters belong in math.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:39):
I was like, pardon?
I was like,
Cat (19:40):
Could you please expand?
There's no letters that belongin math.
Letters don't belong in math.
Numbers belong in math.
Not
Vanessa Vakharia (19:48):
agree to disagree on that one, but that's
okay.
That's
Nat (19:50):
Do the letters represent like things like it's y.
An example for like a car.
Like all those letters representthing.
Cat (19:57):
Just put a picture of a car.
Nat (19:58):
Oh God.
Write a little visual of a realthing.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:02):
Yeah.
I, I feel like that wouldchallenge the people who like,
feel like they're, they havelike art anxiety to have to draw
car instead of the letter
Cat (20:09):
Oh, a stick figure.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:11):
Yeah, it's something to, it's for sure,
something to think about.
Um,
Cat (20:16):
I your open-mindedness.
gonna listen to that feedback.
I'm never gonna apply it, butokay.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
What?
I used to, when I taught Algebrato Kids instead of X and YI
would use hearts and stars, andsome of them just liked it so
much better.
Like, I'd be like, becauseyou're like, you get all caught
up on the fact that it's an X,and again, no one has explained
it to you.
Like if I explained it to you,like I actually feel like you'd
be like.
Cat (20:36):
But X and Y look too much alike too.
It should not be x and y thatthey.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:40):
hot take.
Cat (20:41):
They look, they look really similar on paper, and it's, if
you, when you do two differentsymbols, they look very
different.
Much easier to remember.
I would mix up X and Y no matterwhat, because they look alike.
They're, yeah, they're the samething.
Nat (20:56):
Star, makes, I mean, I, I can imagine would like, that's
so much easier to remember.
Cat (21:00):
X and Y are black in my brain.
Heart and a star are color, soyou know what I
Nat (21:05):
in different shapes.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:06):
It change.
I, I agree.
Again, it just makes thingsinteresting.
It spices things up, like youneed something to, yeah.
And then it's not that hard todraw a heart.
Nat (21:13):
think of kids who are like neurodiverse and they see like
or processed differently.
X and Y are the exact samething.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:20):
My God, I feel like we're already, I mean, the,
even the, the grade 12 teachersare gonna have something to take
away from here, from someone whoprofesses to not know anything
about math, but is reallygetting into the algebra of how
it should be taught, andneurodiverse students.
Okay.
Um, I have a question just to,to move on from this very
algebraic conversation we'rehaving, which I did not expect
to get into, but I'm excitedabout.
Your community is a community ofmoms, right?
(21:42):
Like that's primarily.
Do you guys talk about thisstuff?
Do you talk about math?
Nat (21:48):
No, it's usually an, uh, if, if we're talking about math,
it's usually with frustrationand then people are,
Cat (21:53):
it's homework, it's homework,
Nat (21:54):
it's homework.
We're never like, we're neverhaving a positive, fun
conversation about math with ourcommunity.
You know, one of my, one of our,one
Cat (22:02):
of our kids schools gives time.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:06):
this, this conversation is insane.
Sorry.
Go on.
Cat (22:10):
One of our kids' schools gives time in each class to do
the work, right?
So there are four hour, fourclasses in a day and it's like
an hour and a half or whatever,and they have like 40 minutes to
do their work.
Genius.
Because, genius, because theteacher's there, yeah, if you
are self-driven, you can get itdone, some don't like, you know,
(22:31):
but if you learn thatself-regulation skill, you can
be, I need help with this.
Like put out office hours in thetimes that they're in school
rather than all of these othertimes because there is no time.
Like, it's like, you know, asparents you have so much to
worry about.
Your kids have to bewell-rounded, do
extracurricular, do sports sothey don't get addicted to
drugs.
Then go and be, then havefriends.
(22:53):
Then get a job then, you know,and it like you, it's, you are
worried they're gonna getpregnant behind the Circle K at
the corner store if they're notdoing other things.
That's the messaging we get.
Right?
So he we're then we're like, sitdown, slam your homework in your
mouth.
Oh, and have great mentalhealth, but also look amazing.
(23:13):
Then have a big group of friendsgo do the things on the weekend.
Get straight A's.
'cause you know what, you're notgetting in if you don't get a
99.
Because you know, hundredsaren't getting done these days.
And keep your GPA up all school'cause they're looking back to
grade nine for your grades.
Like the whole thing isludicrous.
So I think that math is part ofa frustration of parents trying
(23:35):
to juggle their kids over mentalhealth and balance in life that
doesn't exist and it falls on usto make things go right, when
there's just not time to makethings.
And then, you know, tutoring'shard because you're paying
extra.
You're trying to find the timefor them to get to class, to go
do it.
It's winter, it's snowing,they're freezing, and you're
(23:57):
like, go do another hour of mathat eight o'clock at night.
Nat (24:00):
Oh God, though, it just sounds really overwhelming,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:02):
I'm so stressed out
Cat (24:05):
Yes but that's what we deal with.
That's what we deal with.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:08):
Well, and I'm also thinking as you, like math
pales in comparison to like thepotential of getting pregnant
behind the Circle K.
Like who the fuck cares?
Nat (24:18):
I know, but you gotta keep, you gotta keep,'em busy.
You know what I mean?
Vanessa Vakharia (24:22):
it's Like you don't have time to worry about
their math identity.
Nat (24:26):
the other thing I find confusing was, my daughter was
in I guess it was a grade 10math, and she walked out with
like a, a really bad mark, likejust a pass.
When she walked out of grade 10without the building blocks, I
was very worried about her grade11 math.
So I decided that if she was ata school where her math class
(24:46):
was three people and she waswalking out with a very low
mark.
In order to pass this grade 11,I wasn't even too worried about
how well she did, I'm not gonnaleave her to a class of 30,
which is, she went from a classof three where she got 50 to a
class of 30.
I'm gonna take it in my ownhands and I am going to get
somebody to take the informationthat she learns at school and
(25:08):
teach it to her the way that shelearns.
And that's what she did at MathGuru.
She met with a girl who shereally connected with, and she
met with her two days a week.
And that girl somehow, Taylor'sjust like, I don't understand
how all of a sudden I understandit.
I think it's her, but I don'tknow if the content was
different, I couldn't believethat she ended up getting an A,
(25:29):
but I don't even know how shedid and I never looked at what
she was learning and I just, Ican't imagine that she went from
having no, like 50% of theknowledge, to the next year
understanding it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:42):
I'm kind of hearing like, there's just so
much emotion around, really,appropriate, I think emotion
around being like.
It is actually really upsettingto think like, my kid might just
be a number to someone and theonly thing they care about is
whether they achieve thisbenchmark that somebody has
decided is like a good benchmarkhere.
And we're not taking intoaccount like what they're
(26:04):
interested in, the fact thatthey might feel like they're
struggling, the fact thatthey're working really hard,
they, they should be rewardedand embraced for being like,
wow.
Like guess what?
You got a 40 last week and todayyou got a 41.
That's fucking awesome.
You know, like.
Cat (26:19):
We're not built that way though.
And our, our, like ourpost-secondary is not built way.
And that they're, they'renumber, they are because that's
what you apply with is numbers
Nat (26:27):
and you are the way, how you talk about and think about
math and for the people, theteachers that will be listening
to this, they're like you.
I do think there are someteachers, oh, amazing teachers,
end up being, yeah.
But I do think there are some,like these are the ones that
care, like really care.
Do I, we have experienced onesthat became teachers, like in
(26:47):
any job and they're just, justtrying to get through, they
don't, I mean, obviously theycan't walk.
Cat (26:52):
That's a lot of work with very little resources.
I don't underestimate that.
I just think that, you know,it's like a systemic issue
because we're dealing, we aredealing with numbers and we're
trying to pump these ki kidsthrough, and we have bell curves
and we have, they feel thepressure.
They get mixed messages becausethey're like, oh, it's what's
holistic here.
Nothing is like, it's such bs.
And the kids know exactly what'sgoing on.
(27:13):
They know some kids, they allknow the, the grades that are
padded.
They like, everybody, it's likethis game we're all playing when
everyone's like, oh, it's howhard you work.
No it's not.
Because the grades, you takeyour top six grades and apply
with that.
That's what you apply with.
That's, that's the end of theday.
So, you know, I think that thepressure they know now of
(27:34):
getting into university is notwhat any of us experienced.
Like it was not like So, and Idon't think we can validate what
they're feeling'cause we didn'tlive it.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:44):
Do you think if we like just imagine a world
where there were no grades?
Okay.
Oh, this is very hard to do, butjust like imagine'cause actually
like getting rid of grading is,not happening, but there's a lot
of experimenting with ithappening.
And like, you know, like in BCfor example, they're not giving
grades until grade nine.
Like you don't get a mark onanything.
Like pretend there was nograding and like somehow math
(28:06):
class was just like, let's alllike learn progress over
product.
Like what way do you learn,let's try teaching you this in a
bajillion different ways.
It's relevant.
Like do you think there'd besome hope there?
Like what would be the thingthat like would give us hope
that maybe
Cat (28:22):
I think you ever get rid of grades.
I think you just have to weighthow hard that child's working.
There will be some kids whoseproduct who pr, whose input
doesn't match their output andthey will always lose.
Right?
Like that's just the way lifegoes.
We have to validate that, youknow, they're, like you said, if
a teacher can take the time andbe like, wow you, I saw how hard
(28:43):
you worked on this test and Iknow the result maybe wasn't
what you hoped for, but I likethe skills you learn in getting
there are gonna take you so muchfurther.
And I think that's on us asparents too, to let them know,
like the fact that you didn'tgive up when it was really hard
is what I look for as anemployer.
You know, and I think that a,what we all have to know is AI
will decimate math in a lot ofways, and it's the way that you
(29:09):
learn and how you are able toprocess or work hard or have
relationships within math,right?
So I think that those are allreal conversations because those
people will win.
I think that we, we just have tolike, you know, we're not
learning for the future andwe're not igniting their
learning lights.
And I think that that's what asparents we get frustrated with
is we want their learning lightsto stay strong because little
(29:32):
kids are so inherently, soexcited to learn.
Yeah.
Like they to learn.
So badly and they get so excitedabout learning new things
Nat (29:39):
And they can tell when their teacher has a passion or
if their teacher, teacher isjust reading from the book.
They can really feel that.
Cat (29:46):
And I think we, we, so at some point we dim their light
and I think that everyone needsto look at why their lights
dimming.
And I think teachers have, youknow, and parents, we have the
power to like ignite it or dimit.
And I think that that's, I thinkwe dim it each year.
They get more and more.
We grind, we grind, we grindthem for the sake of what, I
don't know.
(30:06):
I don't know what, why we grindthem so hard.
So they become older people whojust are stress cases going into
a like I'll never under, itshould be joyful, you know.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:18):
Yeah, and I mean, just to like validate that
whole thing.
I mean the, like the reasonschool was started was because
of the industrial revolution.
The whole purpose of school wasto build like skilled assembly,
sign workers, assembly lineworkers that could follow rules.
Like that's what we needed atthe time.
And the craziest thing is.
It really hasn't changed thatmuch.
(30:40):
Right.
Cat (30:40):
said that.
She's like, I'm 80 and they'redoing the exact same thing.
This is the only industry thathasn't changed.
She's like, this is crazy.
Nat (30:48):
And the classrooms still look the same, smell the same.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:51):
I think this has been so good.
I can, this is such a triggeringconvo and I fucking love it
because it's like, math just hascontinually suffered from the
worst fucking communications PRcrisis of all time.
There's no like, the targetmarket, like here you are and
the kids, here's math educationover here.
There's no communication.
So it you're, it's almost like,you know how you're saying it
sucks that kids don't know whatthey're doing in math, so they
(31:13):
don't like it.
Now there's an additional layerof the parents don't know why
the teachers are doing some ofthe things they're doing.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's like this endless nocommunication
Cat (31:22):
are squeezed, to get in this amount before this thing.
They're squeezed.
Like, I feel very badly forteachers too.
'cause I think most going withthe right heart and so excited
to teach and they get squeezedout of too, right?
Nat (31:33):
You're right.
Math has really bad like, PR.
and I feel like it's so truethat a parent, like, I can't
explain to my kid why they'relearning or why it's important.
In reality, my understanding ofit is, what I really would wanna
say is, just get through this.
You're gonna use a calculatorfor the rest of your life.
Like, this isn't important, it'snot relatable, like that's what
(31:53):
I feel like I would say to them.
I'm not gonna say that to them'cause I don't wanna discourage
but I, you just have to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:00):
Yeah.
Nat (32:01):
There was a moment where there was some really good PR
about.
Uh, girls in stem, girls instem, stem, oh.
And now it's steam.
Like it was big for a while.
I remember it.
I mean, I, I don't know.
And now boys are screwed.
Like now we're screwing theboys, so I don't know
Vanessa Vakharia (32:19):
We Okay.
We that we, we are gonna haveto, there's so much we could
talk about here.
We're gonna have
Nat (32:24):
Well, you're talking just two moms of seven children.
Cat (32:27):
But I, I do wanna say teachers were, I am really
thankful for teachers and Ithink majority of them are, you
know, really doing their bestwith not a lot.
And I do not underestimate that.
And I'm not saying that this ison them at all.
Nat (32:39):
No.
Cat (32:40):
I really do think that teachers are remarkable and you
know, I'm so thankful for them.
I just think that they're doingthe best they can and we are.
Don't communicate with thembecause they're crazy parents
now, so you're not allowed totalk to them like you used to.
So it is, it is challenging withcommunication and.
I am thankful for faculty andyou know, all the people who,
(33:01):
who do their best every day.
'Cause I can't imagine how hardit is for them and how much
resources they put into thesethings for themselves, and money
they buy, an extra time and theydo foster a lot of learning
lights.
It's just some, some, the systemgrinds, grinds everybody.
Including kids, including
Vanessa Vakharia (33:15):
I think that's so well said.
And you said it earlier and Ithink everyone would agree that
it is a systemic issue, right?
It's like we're like, teachersare like at the bottom being
like but a lot of what you saidis, so I think we all need to
hear, and I wanna ask you guysbefore I get to the final, like
quickfire questions, thequestion I get from teachers all
the time is.
cause you know, I talk toteachers about math, anxiety and
math, trauma.
(33:35):
So I'll be like, you know,here's how you prevent it in
your classroom.
Here's how you help studentsheal.
And they'll be like, but what dowe do?
Like what do we do when theparents have math, trauma or the
parents hate math?
Like what can we do?
And like, I know that's a kindof a broad question, but is
there anything like for you two,since you're both like, well,
math really isn't my thing.
Is there something a teachercould do or say that would be
(33:58):
helpful in terms of having toraise kids who need to do math
for a chunk of time.
Cat (34:04):
I think just acknowledging that, know math is hard for
some, and that's okay.
And your kid can still besuccessful even if they're not a
hundred in math.
But together, let's do our bestto support them and make it more
bearable or more enjoyable, theprocess so that they learn how
to learn.
Let's stop focusing on thenumber and let's help them
(34:24):
understand that learning, isn'talways gonna be perfect, but if
we can encourage them to notshut down because they're just
not good at it, that's a biggerlesson.
And I think it's justacknowledging like, it's okay.
Like let's all be okay thatwe're going to, they're gonna
get through it, they have to getthrough it, so let's do the best
we can to support them, ratherthan squeezing a number out of
them, be like, how can I supportyou?
(34:46):
And this is how you can supportme.
And you know, like if we'restruggling, let's think about
ways to problem solve this.
And here's how you can problemsolve at home.
Like, this is what I suggest.
Nat (34:55):
And from a practical, just literally, if, if I were to say
like, how do you make this morelike, entertaining or
interesting is before eachlesson.
Try to give some sort of anexample of how this would be
important to either their brain,their, uh, decision making, uh,
how they would apply this lessonin real life
Cat (35:16):
And maybe talk about ChatGPT.
Like how they can use it as atutor.
Like, you know, that's a really,that is a source some can have
access to, and it really isgreat for kids who maybe are
struggling and, you know, be, beokay with technology and how
they can access it to supporteverybody in the house without
condemning it.
'Cause I think that that'sanother thing, uh, an issue
we're all dealing with is kidsare secretly using it now and
(35:38):
trying to find ways to go aroundit.
But let, I think when teacherstalk about how to incorporate
it, they're like, oh my God,that teacher taught me this
skill and now I can apply it.
And, and you can actually learnfrom practicing in a different
way.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:49):
Yep.
Cat (35:50):
They can teach their kids how they learn.
You are winning if you can justopen up, you know, you like to
write it down, you like to watcha video, like get the parents to
help with that.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
okay, I'm about to do the finaltwo questions, but I wanna know
if you guys ever thought you'dbe on a math podcast.
Like, are you excited?
Nat (36:08):
No, but I You're not like, you're not doing math.
You know what I mean?
We're having conversations.
And you are literally theopposite of what I would think.
Like, uh, I think every personwho's interested in math would
be like,
Cat (36:19):
and I think every person who took math from me would
probably like math.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Totally.
So I think that you're ananomaly.
Yeah.
I'd like to meet more like
Vanessa Vakharia (36:26):
I can't wait to teach you algebra one day
with the X's and Y's and theemojis.
We're gonna have so much fun,Cat.
Nat (36:30):
In In in color.
Please.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:34):
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you guys each onequestion.
This is the final two questionsI ask everyone.
You're each getting one.
Okay?
So the first one, you guys, youguys can pick.
First question is, and we'vekind of touched about this, but
let's say you can only chooseone thing you wanna change about
the way math is taught inschools.
What's it gonna be?
Cat (36:51):
What's the second one?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:52):
The second one?
I feel like that you just did alittle math there, to be honest.
By even just being like, I needto know this.
Cat (37:01):
I reasoned.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:02):
You fucking reason girl.
Okay.
Uh, the second one is if someonewas like, I feel this is a weird
question to ask you,'cause Ikind of like, but okay.
But if someone said, Hey listen,I'm just not a math person, it's
not my thing, I can't learn it.
What would you say?
Cat (37:16):
Oh, you, well, it's a choice.
You two, you're choosing not toright now, you're choosing not
to learn and that's okay.
But you know, you have to lookat where you wanna go with math
and where, look at your,
Nat (37:26):
an adult or a kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:29):
I did not think this was gonna be your
answer.
Nat (37:31):
Because if my friend was like, my friend was like, I'm
just not a math person, I'd belike, who fucking cares me
either.
Cat (37:35):
I think you just have to look at, I think you have to
work backwards if you want.
I always say to my kids, if youwant this result, but you're
doing this, then that doesn'tmatch up.
So what do you want?
If you want this, then you gottago for this.
If you don't want it, then don'tbe worried about it.
But if you wanna go and be amath teacher, you need math.
So you need to get a highermark.
Nat (37:52):
Yeah, and I think the only thing that I'd like to see
changed is just to, um, help.
Them understand, oh, the, like,the practicality of learning and
doing math
Cat (38:01):
and put some colors in there and some emojis.
No, I'm not joking.
Make it a little moreinteresting for the people who
learn differently.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:09):
what I'm laughing at is that I said you
each get to pick one and insteadwhat you, you tricked me into
giving you both, and then youboth answered both of them.
Nat (38:18):
Yeah, so we multiplied by a bunch and got a whole lot of, we
had a sum number of four insteadof two
Vanessa Vakharia (38:25):
I mean, we've now done math for I'd say at
least 5% of this interview.
Okay.
we are gonna close up here.
Where can everyone find you?
Cat and Nat
Nat (38:32):
Oh,@catandnat everywhere.
everywhere that they have it,it's Cat and Nat.
Our podcast is Cat and NatUnfiltered.
We have catandnat.com.
Just everything, everywhere.
Cat and Nat.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:43):
This a really important talk, I think.
It was insane, but it wasimportant.
We might all get canceled.
That's okay.
Nat (38:49):
in the math world.
I'm not worried.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:51):
Well, that is where my career lies, but yeah,
no problem.
I can't believe I'm gonnainterview your daughter
tomorrow.
Now this is like
Nat (38:56):
I know.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:56):
layer.
Nat (38:58):
Well, she has a lot of, like, she's, it's been a journey
for her and so she's got a lotto say and she also has, you
know, really appreciated you,um, giving her like other ways
to think about it.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:10):
Well, we'll see.
Okay guys, we're gonna saygoodbye, but don't hang up quite
yet.
I hate this part.
How do you guys say bye on yourpodcast?
Like what's the
Nat (39:17):
See ya.
We'll just hang up on you.
Thanks for coming.
Bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:21):
There we go.
It's done.
We're done.
Okay, we're done Okay.
I don't know what to say afterthat rollercoaster, like I'm
still kind of speechless and asyou know, that is not normal for
me.
I'll be honest, like it was sucha challenging conversation for
me because the whole time I wastorn between validating their
feelings as parents whiledefending teachers who have to
(39:43):
work.
In a broken system and thereality is that it's all true,
right?
Two things can be true.
And I also felt like my role wassort of to listen.
Like I, I, I wanted to like, notargue, but I kind of wanted to
debate and like defend and belike, but this is why we do
this.
And I sort of realized a fewminutes in.
My role right now is to actuallylisten to their feelings, and
(40:04):
that is the approach I alwayschampion in math class with our
own students.
Our role is not to defend, it'sto listen to our students'
feelings, to make sure they feelseen and heard.
That's often the first step tolike solving the problem and
changing their relationship withmath.
I'm so glad we did this episodebecause teachers and parents are
partners in raising these kidsand everyone benefits if we all
(40:26):
understand each other'sperspective better.
So I wanna put the ball in yourcourt.
And I realize that now all of asudden, I'm a sports metaphor
person, I guess, but okay.
I wanna know, what did thisepisode bring up for you?
What did you agree with?
What did you disagree with?
And I also just had a thoughtlike, do schools need to do more
parent education around this?
(40:48):
Like I know we do a lot ofparent education around content
and how we're teaching math, butdo we need to have more parent
nights around what Nat and Catbrought up?
So for this week's Math Therapyhomework.
I'm thinking, I want you to putyourself in their shoes.
If someone says, we should justbe teaching math the old way or
whatever, I was never good atmath, it's boring, I hate it.
Instead of being mad about itand getting defensive, which I
(41:10):
am very guilty of doing, askthem why they feel that way and
like see if you can empathizeand then respond from that
place.
And I wanna know what happens.
So remember, you can text thepodcast by hitting the link in
your show notes.
You can DM me at the Math Guru,or you can email me at
vanessa@themathguru.ca.
I really want to hear from you.
I know there was a lot in thisepisode, and I'm so curious what
(41:32):
you're thinking and feeling, Andif you've made it this far,
first of all, thank you, yourock.
But more importantly, you are infor a treat because on next
week's episode, I'll be talkingwith Nats daughter Taylor.
She was so honest about whathigh school is really like and
was the perfect compliment tothis week's episode.
So make sure you and everyoneyou know and love are subscribed
to the podcast so you don't missit.
(41:54):
And again, just as a littlereminder, Math Therapy is hosted
by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it isproduced and edited by the
amazing David Kochberg, and themusic you're hearing is by our
band, Goodnight Sunrise.
Nat (42:12):
bye.
Bye bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:13):
Oh, bye ya.
Nat (42:14):
No, I'm saying, you're saying, how do you guys say bye?
We're like, okay.
Where can everybody find you?
Okay, great.
Bye Bye bye.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:19):
And then you don't hang up.
Nat (42:21):
Yeah, we hang up.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:22):
See, I think it's different because they hang
up and if I was gonna hang up onthem it would be more natural to
say bye.
But I know I'm not hanging up.
Nat (42:29):
Why aren't you hanging up?
Vanessa Vakharia (42:30):
Because we have to like make, why aren't we
hanging up?
Nat (42:35):
You
Vanessa Vakharia (42:36):
because we have to make sure it like, I
don't know.
Don't you have to like make sureit uploads or something?
We have to take a selfie, like Ithink that
Nat (42:41):
Oh, okay.
Oh, we don't do any of that.
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