May 16, 2024 • 38 mins
What if the secret to winning a debate was actually listening to your opponent? What if you could build confidence and overcome anxiety through the practice of public speaking? And HOW does someone go from dreams of Broadway fame to teaching debate in math class?! Find out today as Vanessa chats with math educator/coach Chris Luzniak, host of The DebateMath Podcast!
About Chris (Website, Twitter, Instagram)
Chris Luzniak is an international math consultant and instructional coach. While teaching in New York City public schools he founded the Speech and Debate team, and through this combination of teaching and coaching Chris has developed debate routines that bring student voice and discussion into the math classroom. He coaches teachers in both math and science to develop real-world debate activities for students, hosts The DebateMath Podcast (Subscribe, Twitter, YouTube), and explores these themes further in his book Up for Debate!
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Luzniak (00:02):
And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson,
the teacher said, that girl whoshared first has never spoken
all year in my class.
But she several times raised herhand and wanted participate
because she suddenly feltcomfortable.
She suddenly has a voice.
Every side in a debate has somekernel of truth, and I want to
hear more about it to understandwhat's in their head, not just
if they're right or wrong.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so I'm just gonna come inhot and say that I think my
guest might be my math edsoulmate.
I say this for many reasons, themain one being that he went to
school to be a Broadway starbefore becoming a math teacher.
Like, how cool is that?
And actually, I've alwaysthought that teaching is kind of
(01:05):
like performing, so it makessense that today's guest is an
incredible math teacher.
Chris Luzniak, guys! That's whoit is! The king of debate in
math class and host of theDebate Math Podcast.
And what, you might ask, doesdebate have to do with math
class?
How can getting kids morecomfortable with public speaking
in low pressure scenarios helpprevent math anxiety?
And what is the secret tochanging someone's mind?
(01:28):
Well, stay tuned because Chrisis about to tell all and if you
disagree with any of it, you'lljust have to go on his podcast.
Chris.
Welcome to the podcast.
Um, I, our listeners shouldprobably know that we've been
now speaking for about half anhour already all our gold has
already been unrecorded, so nowwe're going to have to repeat it
(01:50):
all.
Chris Luzniak (01:51):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Glad to finally be recordingwith you.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:55):
Oh my god, he's acting so professional.
He's like, and now I'm going tosay something normal.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Um, okay.
Well, I'm just going to pick upwhere we left off of what we
were talking about, because nowI want to know about it and
everyone should know.
So, the last thing you just saidbefore we got rudely cut off by
David telling me to stop yellinginto the microphone was that you
have a joint theatre and mathdegree.
(02:15):
Can I just hear about this andlike, why?
Chris Luzniak (02:17):
Yeah, I didn't fully finish the theater, but I
went to college for theateroriginally because I mean, I was
good at math in high school, butwhat do you do with a math
degree?
And, you know, I had teacherswho lectured at me and I
memorized things and I got the Aand just moved on with my life,
but like, I wasn't going to bea, what does a math major do?
Right?
Um, but theater is really funand exciting and it was like a
hobby of mine.
(02:37):
So, I went to college for that,and then I took a math class in
college with a professor whokind of had like a flipped
classroom where we did someteaching ourselves calculus at
home and then doing problems atthe board kind of like Building
Thinking Classrooms, but like 20some years ago, this was.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:52):
Wow, dropping Building Thinking Classrooms,
it's been one minute of theinterview.
Chris Luzniak (02:56):
But this is before all of that, right?
This is like
Vanessa Vakharia (02:58):
Yeah.
Chris Luzniak (02:59):
2000.
Um, and it was so fun to learnmath that way.
And like everything suddenlyclicked and made sense.
And we were challenged.
And I was like, I want to takemore classes with you, like this
professor, and being a liberalarts college, there wasn't a lot
of people in the math program,so it was very easy to have one
on one time with our professors.
And I just kept taking more mathclasses and I switched to a math
degree.
And I, and then I went to gradschool for math after that.
(03:19):
Like, I just loved, I fell inlove with math and I didn't
fully finish the theater degree.
Like I have a minor or somethingin it.
I don't even remember.
Um, but I took most of theclasses for it cause I still
loved it.
But, uh, yeah, so I have a dualpassion of theater and math.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay, I have so many questions, none of which
were on my list.
But the first is when you, I'mjust curious, when you were
going to take your theatredegree, were you like, I'm going
to be on Broadway.
Like, what did you want?
Like you said, there's nothingyou can do with a math degree.
So, okay, that's what you were
Chris Luzniak (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like singer, dancer,actor, like auditioning at
colleges when I was in a senioryear of like, you know, doing,
songs and dance audition thingsto get into the musical theater
programs, things like that.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:54):
Oh my God.
Well, we're right now watchingOnly Murders in the Building.
Have you seen it?
Chris Luzniak (03:58):
Of course.
Yeah.
Season three.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:59):
So yeah, so I'm just thinking of everything
right now,"which of the pickwick triplets did it?" know,
like that.
Chris Luzniak (04:06):
That is such great catchy song.
Yeah, I mean, that's also why Iended up in New York City.
Like I taught math for almost adecade in New York City, but I,
friends of mine were movingthere to do theater and I had
developed a math and educationkind of pathway on the side.
So I still wanted to go to NewYork with them.
So, uh, I taught in New York andthen I went to Broadway shows in
the evenings.
It was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:25):
Okay, so your, your whole thing that like I
really wanted to talk to youabout was debate in math class.
So we're going to talk aboutwhat that actually means.
But I'm wondering like.
It must be, like, I always thinkabout this.
You kind of said that the reasonyou fell back in love with math,
or even fell in love with it tostart with, was because of a
teacher.
You loved, like, his style.
He was doing Peter Liljedahl,while Peter Liljedahl in the
(04:49):
2000s was probably, like, stillin his canoe, like, not even
knowing that he wanted to use awhiteboard.
Fine.
Um, and you loved that.
So, like, that teacher made sucha difference.
But for you, like, that is sucha unique skill set to bring into
a classroom because it must beso incredible to have that,
like, ability to perform whileteaching.
Like, how do you think that kindof helps you be such an engaging
(05:10):
teacher?
Chris Luzniak (05:11):
Ooh, that's complicated.
Cause when I teach, I mean, I'mnot teaching this year, but I
want it to be about thestudents, not about me.
Versus like, if I'm on stage, Iwant it to be about me, right?
Me and look at my skills.
So, um, but it helps like thosebackground skills help in like
the improv way and the like, howto like um, read the audience
way that like, I can see what'shappening and I kind of keep
(05:34):
things moving.
Like people notice when theycome to observe my classroom,
like things keep moving, kidsare always busy doing different
things.
And I, I can sense when it'slike, we spent enough time on
this problem.
Let's like, either talk aboutthe answer or move on to
something else.
Like it just like, it keepsflowing.
And so like that, those kinds oflike softer skills or background
skills, I think, really kick inwhen I, when I'm in front of a
group or working with a group.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:54):
That's such a cool way to think about it,
because I was totally justthinking about you in the
spotlight, but what a cool wayto flip it around to be like,
no, like one of my greatestskills is being able to like,
read the room and react to theaudience.
And like, what could possibly bemore student centered than that?
Right?
Like, I feel like, you know,this is a podcast about math
trauma, and one of the things Ioften talk about is that, like,
(06:15):
you're not going to go up toevery student and be like, hey,
do you have trauma?
Like, what someone do to hurtyou?
But, like, to build those activelistening or observational
skills so that you can spotsigns.
So, like, I feel like that'sactually so cool that you're
using that skill in a way ofbeing like, how is my audience
reacting?
How do I have to change myapproach as a teacher?
And that kind of stuff.
And now I'm thinking about, Iwant to hear about this debate
(06:38):
in math class thing.
How did it start?
Because this really plays in forme.
I'm just thinking about you as aperformer, watching the audience
and like encouraging debate.
So tell me about it.
Chris Luzniak (06:47):
Yes, so before I was in the theater, um, I had a
teacher in high school, Englishteacher who convinced me to join
speech and debate team atschool.
And I was a somewhatintroverted, pretty shy, nerdy
freshman.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:06):
I can't see it.
Chris Luzniak (07:07):
And well, when I did speeches and competition,
like I suddenly came out of myshell, like it was like my, like
10 minutes to like perform mything.
And then I sat back down.
Right.
But like, when I'm on, I was onand I suddenly, it just like
kicked in in me like this, likepassion for like, I want to be
up there and performing anddoing things and talking to
people.
And it like brought me out of myshell.
A million times over.
(07:27):
Like I, I can remember in likeelementary school, I never
wanted to talk in class at all.
Like I just never feltcomfortable no matter how much I
knew the answer or whatever.
Like I wouldn't, I was someonewho wouldn't raise my hand when
I was younger.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:36):
Why?
Chris Luzniak (07:37):
I, just too shy.
I don't know.
I just didn't feel like I hadenough to contribute or I just
wasn't comfortable for somereason.
And, speech and debate, like,changed my whole perspective of
like what I can do or how, myconfidence level and all these
things.
And so, yeah, so that, that ledme to theater and all that stuff
down the road.
And so when I was teaching, inNew York City, my first couple
of years, I was also coachingspeech and debate.
(07:59):
I started a team at the schoolthat I was at.
And I noticed that after schoolkids never wanted to leave my
room.
They wanted to read really likedull articles about like
healthcare policy or, you know,like foreign affairs, whatever,
um, cause they wanted to win thedebate that coming weekend when
we went to the competition,right.
Or they wanted to practice thespeech they wrote with me over
(08:20):
and over again.
And I was like, why is like thisso compelling for kids?
And why is math class a placewhere they just kind of, you
slouch down, you know, hide inthe back and just kind of only
spoke if, if they're forced to.
And so I tried to merge thosetwo worlds and just playing with
a lot of ideas around studentdiscourse.
And then also just askingquestions that are more
debatable than just what's theanswer, but like, what's, what's
(08:43):
the best method for going this,or what might be your first
step, or looking at twoincorrect answers and being
like, who has the coolestmistake here?
And just getting things wherelike, there's an opinion behind
it and math wasn't just cold andabout getting the answers
anymore.
And suddenly I saw kids start tolean in and say, I want to share
my thought on this, because I'masking for their opinions, we
know teenagers are full ofopinions, they share their
(09:04):
ideas.
And so when I flipped that andmade math more about sharing
your ideas about things, kidsreally wanted to talk.
And so this is what I do nowwith teachers.
When I work with teachers, like.
I work with them to buildclassroom routines and questions
and activities where studentsare sharing their opinion, maybe
not all the time, but at leastparts of classes here and there
to get the culture to shift fromanswer getting to like really
(09:27):
leaning in and talking aboutyour ideas.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:30):
I'm obsessed with this.
Okay, so I'm obsessed with this.
So, to, uh, my first questionis, what did you learn in, in
your speech and debateexperience that, like, all of a
sudden shifted your perspectiveto being like, I'm really
comfortable talking and sharingmy opinion.
Like, what were some of the coreskills?
Because like, we're always like,I do this, I'm like, just don't
be afraid to take a risk.
That's not like a skill though.
Chris Luzniak (09:50):
Yeah, I just learned by doing it a bunch of
times, my comfort and confidencereally grew and I just have to
do it.
Like, I can't do it once and belike, I'm, I got over my public
speaking fear.
Right.
But if I it every weekend orevery other weekend or whatever,
uh, it becomes more comfortableand the more I do it.
And so I want in my classroom,my students to do the same
(10:10):
thing.
I want them to talk, once, twicea week, at least, right?
Like maybe every class, if I, ifI could, depends how big my
classes are and where I'mteaching, but like, can it
become a routine that like onceor twice every week they have to
like share with each other,share with the whole class,
share with a small group,whatever size of audience we're
working with.
But I want it to be comfortableand it only becomes comfortable
(10:31):
if you repeat, repeat, repeat.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:33):
Hmm.
Like consistency.
Like, even when you're workingout, it's more important to just
be consistent than to like liftheavy weights once a week,
right?
Like consistency, consistency.
So what you're saying aboutrepetition, I love that.
But I'm also wondering, like, isthere, I, I've actually never
like done any sort of structureddebate, waiting for someone to
have me on their podcast so Ican do it.
Chris Luzniak (10:53):
Okay.
I got the hint.
I got the hint.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:55):
We'll talk about that shortly.
What I'm wondering is, can youtell me like how debate works?
Cause you have a podcast whereyou have adults debating
mathematical ideas and concepts,but you also do it in class.
Are there like rules?
Like, how does it work?
Chris Luzniak (11:10):
Well, I'd say it depends how formal you're being.
If I have like a five minutewarm up question with students
at the beginning of class, andI'm just like, what's the best
pizza topping or, you know,what's the best method for
solving this problem, whateverit is, it's quick.
And it's just like you get your30 seconds to kind of share your
idea.
And I have a little structurearound it.
I use some sentence stems, like"my claim is, my warrant is",
(11:30):
um, but on that like low keylevel, it's just about like a
quick, you know, 20 seconds inthe spotlight, share your ideas
and someone else goes.
But it's about one persontalking, that's like, that's the
only rule and everyone else justlistening and practicing our
listening skills.
But as I get bigger, like if Ido a project with a class where
we're going to have like a fulldebate for like a whole day, or
on my podcast, when I get adultstogether and they have different
(11:52):
viewpoints and we're all goingto debate, there is a structure
to it, which if you're, whenyou're on in the future,
Vanessa Vakharia (11:58):
But like, tell briefly what it is.
Chris Luzniak (12:00):
Yeah, I mean, I just do a simple, like everyone
gets an opening statement andthen we have a questioning
round.
And then there's a closing roundwhere you kind of summarize your
main points one last time.
But for me, the openingstatements is the most important
because everyone gets their 2minutes to say whatever they
want and to like, kind of starttheir case.
It's kind of like, you know, in,uh, in a courtroom, kind of like
the opening statements there.
(12:21):
And then the questioning roundis where my host and I just ask
questions, and we just have aconversation, because I want to
hear more about some of thethings you said, or I want to
talk about some things thatdidn't come up in your opening
statement, because you can't fiteverything you want to say in 2
minutes, but you like, your 2minutes is like you set the tone
and say what you really want toget across.
We'll casually talk throughthings in the questioning round.
And we say to all our guests,like, I really believe both
(12:43):
sides have something to share.
And so the questions, there's nogotchas in the questions.
We just want to know, like, canyou say more about that?
We don't come out with like, butwhat about this?
Right.
We're not, we're notcross-examining someone.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:53):
You're not being a reply guy.
Did I use that right?
Chris Luzniak (12:57):
I don't know what that means.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:59):
Okay, David is shaking his head.
Never mind, go on.
Chris Luzniak (13:02):
I want people to be comfortable and I want to
hear them out.
I, I really believe at least inalmost every debate we have and
most debates I have in life thatboth sides are seeing things,
uh, with truth, like we havesome misunderstandings or some
different goals in mind.
That's why we really debate.
Like, you know, the, um, like onsocial media you see all the
time, like the cylinder, like ifI look from one end, it's a
(13:22):
circle, but if you look from theside, it's a, it's a rectangle.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that.
Chris Luzniak (13:25):
We both see like different shapes, right?
But we're both right.
Like, we're just like, I'mviewing things with this lens or
with this goal in mind.
Like I want to get my kids topass the state exams.
Like that's different than whatyou want to do, if you want them
to feel comfortable withlearning math is, you know, we
have different goals atdifferent moments.
And so I want to hear them allout.
Cause there's points to be madeon all sides.
(13:46):
And so I don't want, I wanteveryone to feel comfortable.
I just want to dwell in thatgray area in the middle we talk
about a lot, where there is noright or wrong, it's just shades
of gray.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:55):
Do you think there's something to the
structure of it?
Because it's like I'm imaginingyou starting your class, a lot
of teachers try to do this,right, of just being like so,
like, what's the best way tosolve this problem?
Versus We have five minutes.
Everyone has 20 seconds, what'sthe best way to solve this
problem?
Like, is there something aboutthe structure of it that lends
itself to kids being more likewilling to share?
(14:18):
Cause they know that it's goingto follow a format.
They know that like, is theresomething there?
Chris Luzniak (14:22):
Yeah.
I would say it's two things.
It's the fact that you're askingfor an opinion, not the answer.
So even if I don't know how todo that, I can give an opinion
of like, I might do this first,like, and just throw something
out there.
So it's easier to join theconversation.
And then I have, like I said, Ihave the sentence frame,"my
claim is my warrant is".
Vanessa Vakharia (14:38):
What does that mean?
Like explain that my claim is?
My warrant, like use it.
Chris Luzniak (14:42):
My claim is dogs are the best pets, and my
warrant is because they're socuddly.
And,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:49):
Ohhhh.
Chris Luzniak (14:50):
So warrant means reason, it's just a fancy, I
took it from the debate world.
Like warrant means reason.
Um, it's just a, an oldfashioned word for reason.
But I, I also tell teachers allthe time when I work with them,
I lucked onto this.
I was just playing withdifferent sentence frame ideas.
The word warrant is somethingspecial, and claim even too,
because it's not part of thestudents' everyday vocabulary.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:11):
It's like, fancy.
Chris Luzniak (15:13):
Yeah, so if you ask them to say like,"I think
because", it becomes a lot morelike informal and it becomes
like almost personal when peoplereply like in the opposite side
of things.
But when you say"my claim, mywarrant", it sounds like this
fancy thing, that's like reallyjust you're throwing an idea out
there and people are attackingthe idea and not the person.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:30):
I love this! I'm always going on about how
language is so important, butit's like every day I realize I
didn't even realize howimportant language was or like
in what context, like even thistiny little thing can like
shift.
So, okay.
Oh my God.
I have like three questions,which one am I going to ask
first?
My first one actually is this.
With what you're saying, butalso with a lot of like ideas
educators have of like newframeworks and things to do, I
(15:52):
find that one thing we, wealmost like take for granted is
the relationship building thatneeds to happen before you can
do something like this.
Right?
Like, so I was, I was wonderingabout that.
You know, if you were givingadvice to educators and you were
like, go do this claim warrantstuff, yay.
Would you be like, but firstthere's some stuff you have to
do.
Like, are there, is thererelationship building?
Do you have to teach conflictresolution?
(16:12):
Like, do you need to make sureit's a safe space?
Like, how do you do thosethings?
Chris Luzniak (16:17):
Uh, that's complicated because any, ways to
build relationships aredifferent from teacher to
teacher and even from year toyear and different students.
Yes, all of that's true.
Like, I need to create acomfortable environment where
they feel safe to share theirideas.
But I say, I like, start theyear with debate, and
relationship building at thesame time.
And they're kind of working handin hand.
Like I think making them alittle uncomfortable about
(16:38):
having them share out the firstor second day of class, um,
opens them up to a little bit ofvulnerability, but like I do it
in a loving, careful way.
And so the, I want them to knowthat they, their voice is
valued, and, um, it's okay to beuncomfortable in this class.
But I, I'm here to support youand only say positive things
about this, uh, when you shareout.
And like, I start debate withlike best pizza topping, best
(16:59):
ice cream,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:00):
Like chill stuff.
Chris Luzniak (17:01):
Like, we're not even talking about math because
math anxiety could, couldheighten the level of someone's
stress.
But if I ask you to talk about,you know, the best video game or
the best musician.
You have an opinion and it'sokay to share.
And even just share in like a,in a partner format, like a pair
share or in a small group, likejust each, each person in your
group share with each other,like, what's your, what's the
best ice cream flavor?
(17:21):
And my claim is, my warrant is,just get that practice down and
then we'll build up to like,talking in front of the class,
maybe.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:26):
Mh hmm.
So it's funny, you brought upmath anxiety and this podcast is
called Math Therapy.
So it's very much about that,like how do we spot anxiety?
How do we deal with it?
How do we manage it?
How do we help kids overcome it?
And I want to go back to whatyou just said about being like,
well, first I ask, you know,about chill things that have
nothing to do with math.
Otherwise, math anxiety might,and then we didn't finish the
sentence because I startedlaughing.
(17:46):
So can we, can we go back tothat?
Like.
Tell me what you mean and whatpower you think debate might
have, because I think it couldbe such a powerful tool in
helping kids overcome previousmath trauma.
Chris Luzniak (17:59):
Yeah.
so like I said, first, I don'tstart with math.
Because if you just say, I wantyou to speak, and that student
has a fear of public speaking,and talk about math, that is,
could be like be beyond theirthreshold, like tenfold, right?
It is so stressful to do that,but if I'm just like, I want you
to speak about ice cream, that'sa great way to get into it.
But then when we start talkingabout math, it's very gently and
just like, Hey, what do youthink is the best method for
(18:21):
this?
Or, here's like two mistakes Imade on this problem.
Which one is the better mistake,whatever the coolest mistake,
whatever that means.
Right.
Um, which I love.
Cause then they're, when I do abest mistake debate, I love that
because then they say the bestmistake is that, and they're
valuing mistakes in my class,which is a whole nother layer of
awesomeness that happens.
Um, what was your question?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:43):
Well, I also was like so unfair.
I was like, I didn't even askhim a question.
So, no, that, so that, good.
You're like, you were justtalking about how you bring up
like basically a non curriculartopic to get them talking.
And then you like wean intomath.
And I, my, my real question is,What power do you think debate
in math class has in helpingkids work through their math
anxiety and their math trauma?
Chris Luzniak (19:05):
A, a lot.
I don't have like researchedanswers, but I can say like,
from experience
Vanessa Vakharia (19:09):
You don't need a, this is not a research
podcast in case that wasn't veryclear.
Chris Luzniak (19:14):
Screw that.
Uh, no, uh, um,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:18):
Just from your experience, like, have you seen
it transform anyone?
Chris Luzniak (19:21):
Yeah.
I think there's something aboutasking about the process and not
the answer.
Like the students don't feellike they have to be correct.
And so students are more eagerto jump in.
And I, like, I work a lot withteachers now as a consultant.
And I just think about, like, acouple months ago, I was working
with some teachers, and theyasked me to model debate in
their class.
So I just, we went in, weplanned a lesson ahead of time,
(19:42):
and then I went in and taughtit, and the first thing I did
was ask a debate question about,about something, I can't
remember, a slope or something.
Um, you know, a girl raised herhand and shared out, some more
people shared out.
And at the end, when wedebriefed the lesson, the
teacher said, that girl whoshared first has never spoken
all year in my class.
But she several times raised herhand and wanted participate
because she suddenly feltcomfortable, she suddenly has a
(20:04):
voice.
She doesn't have to know theanswer, but she has some opinion
about things, and so she cantalk about it.
And then maybe, hopefully, as ateacher, she's going to learn it
as we talk about it, becauseshe's not just being passive and
ignoring me anymore, right?
She's engaged in the learning alittle bit, which is my goal.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
And I would like imagine so many amazing
things could come from thisbecause it's like, once that
girl is talking, she's morelikely to talk or raise her hand
when she has an actual questionabout something.
You know what I mean?
It's like now her voice is beingvalued in the classroom.
She's broken the ice and she'salready used it.
It's like the gateway drug, likedebate is the gateway drug to
actually like
Chris Luzniak (20:40):
To joining math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:41):
Yeah.
Like I think it's very, cool.
Chris Luzniak (20:43):
And I was gonna say, like, I think a lot of it
is students come in thinkingmath is like black and white,
and there's like this, thisdesired answer and the desired
method that you want, andthere's no, like, options, and
there's, there's no openness toit.
And, uh, so debate helps themsee that like, I'm not looking
for you to say seven and then Ican give you a sticker and we
(21:04):
can move on.
I'm looking to hear yourthoughts and like that is much
more engaging for students andmuch more manageable for them to
join in and not feel likeanxious about, do I have the
right answer or am I, am I goodat math or am I dumb?
You know, that kind of likeblack and white polarized thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Well, and that's so, so I'm like such a
big proponent of the fact thatlike, cool, I want kids to learn
math, I do.
But I also think that the mostimportant thing that can come
out of math class is the beliefthat you are capable of more
than you thought you were.
Because so many kids go intomath class with a deficit
perspective, because they'vebeen told at some point that
they can't do math in thetraditional sense of like
(21:40):
getting the right answerquickly, whatever.
So, like, to me, I'm like, oneskill, we were talking about
this when we weren't recording,one skill that I think the
world, we can both agree theworld needs now more than ever
is the ability to hear differentopinions, to actively listen, to
be open minded, to feel like youcan speak your mind while also
(22:02):
not just teaming up with oneside because we're so polarized.
And like what an incredible wayto build that skill in math
class in a place where peopleare already scared.
Like, I'm just, like, sofascinated by all the, like,
rich work you're doing.
Because I would imagine that,like, kids leave your math class
being like, well, this is howyou, you engage with, this is
(22:22):
how you communicate.
Like, you listen to people, yousometimes see two sides of a
story.
Chris Luzniak (22:29):
Yes, I will say, uh, when I'm, modeling a lesson
in teacher's classrooms andstuff, one of the biggest
feedback comments I get fromteachers is you're a really good
listener.
Like, I think all the time, likewe're so listening for the right
answer, and I'm just listeningto the student and like, what is
it, you know, or don't know.
(22:50):
And like, think about like, uh,if you have a square with a side
of four and ask for the area,you say 16, you might have been
counting the perimeter.
Right?
Like I, 16 doesn't mean you'reright.
So it's like say more to mefirst.
Right?
Um, Or like I did this, with astudent.
I said something like what's 10plus 10, some younger students,
and they said, uh, eight.
(23:10):
And instead of shutting themdown saying you're wrong, I was
just like, Oh, so tell me howyou got that.
And they're like, well, 10o'clock plus 10 hours is eight
because we had been talkingabout time, like kind of on a
tangent, but her mind was stillon that.
And so instead of shutting herdown and being like, you're
right, you're wrong.
I'm just like, tell me aboutyour thinking.
And she was totally right.
10 plus 10 is eight when you'retalking about time in some, some
(23:30):
sense.
And so I go back to my point.
Like, I think every side in adebate has some kernel of truth,
something that they're, they'regetting at.
And I want to hear more about itto understand what's in their
head, not just if they're rightor wrong.
And I think we're, this worldjust, everyone just wants to be
right or wrong.
I want to be in the right, rightpolitical party.
I want to be in the right group.
I want to go to the rightcollege, like all these right
things.
And it's like, just, just enjoylife and the complications of
(23:53):
it.
And I, we're getting furtherfrom that as we get more
polarized.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:57):
So, this is the thing I really wanted to
talk about because I've alsonoticed as, you know, we're both
podcasters, you have guests on,you engage in discussion, I am
on social media all the timetalking about things.
I, I know everyone's noticedthis, but I, like, when I tell
my friends, when I'm like, oh mygod, I'm getting all these like,
crazy, I just got two newcomments today on my Instagram
(24:17):
post.
Can I read them to you?
My post was, my post was about,um, whether we should memorize
math facts or not.
Comment number one:"oh my god,you're today's winner of the
dumbest idea on the internet".
And then let me tell you thesecond comment,"girl, shut up".
The reason I bring that up iswhen I tell my friends this,
they're like, wait, about math?
(24:39):
And I'm like, yes.
I'm like, like, you know,they're used to the, you know,
the polarized things you see onthe internet about like, juicier
stuff, politics racism, sexism,climate don't know.
And they're like, wait, aboutthe times tables?
And I'm like, yes, because it'sliterally everywhere.
Like it's literally everywhere.
And I think about like yourstudents having opinion, like
(25:01):
take social media out of it,your students having opinions on
the best way to solve a problemor the fact that they get the
wrong answer.
And they are probably actuallyused to thinking.
Well, I'm going to be shut, I'mgoing to be told I'm fucking
stupid.
Like, this girl just told me toshut up on the internet.
Like, that's probably whatthey're expecting.
So, A, you're raising ageneration, like, of kids, of
young people, who know not toengage with one another that
(25:22):
way.
That's the first very coolthing.
But how do we, reconcile thefact that even though we might
be technically or visibly orlike, you know, objectively on
the opposite side of thespectrum on someone, on an
opinion, that we can still havesomething in common.
Does that make sense?
Like I, I feel like it's like,like I have a neighbor with a
(25:45):
Confederate flag, which I, Icould, I could shut that down
immediately and be like, I'mnever gonna speak to him.
We obviously don't agree on thefact that he thinks it's okay to
fly a confederate flag, but wehave a ton of stuff in common
and we have learned that throughspeaking with each other for two
years and engaging inconversation and actually quite
respectfully disagreeing withone another when we do and
(26:07):
agreeing with each other when wedo.
Chris Luzniak (26:09):
I love that.
I wish, I wish that was what wesaw in news media, the
respectful disagreements.
Like I disagree with you on thishealthcare policy because, but
I, but I understand where you'recoming from.
We just see people looking forsoundbites and to polarize their
audience quickly.
So they get the votes, not athoughtful, like well reasoned
discussion.
And like I was saying to youearlier, that this is, my
(26:31):
podcast is an hour long everytime, because I want to hear
people out and I want them totalk through their ideas and not
just give me a quick soundbiteof like memorize facts or don't
memorize facts.
We're done.
I'm like, why is that?
Or what, what times would youmemorize or not memorize?
Like, you know, how nuanced isyour answer?
And, I think that makes us allbetter if we hear both sides out
(26:53):
because then we can decide forourselves what really works for
us.
Because every teacher isdifferent, every district is
different, school, students,right?
So I don't think there's oneright way to teach anything
specifically, but I want you to,if you're going to do some
action, do it well informed ofwhat the different options are,
the different sides would say,like why you might or why you
might not do this, what good orharm each side could be doing
(27:16):
for what you're doing forstudents.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:18):
So, do you ever, like, get into a
situation, because I feel likethis would happen to me, it's
not just because I'm, like, aGemini and I can see both sides,
but, like, do you ever have asituation where your two podcast
guests are on different sides,and at the end, they, like, come
around to agree with each other?
Chris Luzniak (27:33):
Oh, uh, yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:34):
Yeah?
Chris Luzniak (27:35):
Yeah, yeah.
I wouldn't say like in fullagreement, but they like, they
find lots of common groundsometimes, uh, sometimes, not
always, But the Venn diagramlike can overlap more and more
as we talk about things.
And this is just like yourneighbor.
Like the more you talk, the moreyou see that your Venn diagrams
overlap.
And I wish we all did that.
And that, that's actually a lotof the work that I'm doing now
(27:56):
is I've been researching andworking with some organizations.
Like, how do you actually changesomeone's mind?
And like looking at likeresearch and like cult mentality
and
Vanessa Vakharia (28:05):
Ooh, oh my god, wait, wait, wait, wait,
what?
You said my, said my amazingtrigger word.
I love cults.
What about it?
Chris Luzniak (28:12):
This is a whole nother discussion for another
day.
We can go on for hours.
But, like, I just, like, howmuch people, um, once they,
like, lean into something, theyare more afraid to change their
mind if they're going to upsettheir social group.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:25):
Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, have you seen
the Flat Earth documentary?
Chris Luzniak (28:29):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:30):
No, no, no.
I'm serious.
What's it called?
Beyond the,
Chris Luzniak (28:33):
Beyond The Curve?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:34):
Beyond The Curve.
You have to, because it's allabout it, and it's like, so you
just said if it's going to upsettheir social group, and I would
go one step further becausewhat, what the guy says in
there, because basically by theend of the documentary, like,
they have proven to him that theworld is not flat, and he's just
like, I can't change my opinionon this, because, it's who I am
at this point and my entirefriend, like exactly my social,
(28:57):
I would have nothing if I let goof it.
Like the closer you like, um,attach an opinion to who you
are, you can't let go of it.
Whereas if I'm like, well, I'mthis very multifaceted person,
and one of the many things Ibelieve is like, there are other
ways to learn your math factsthan memorize, it's easier for
me to change my mind, causethat's not like my core
identity.
Chris Luzniak (29:18):
For sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:18):
So how do you change people's minds?
Like, what are you finding?
Chris Luzniak (29:22):
it's a, long discussion.
Um, but what you're doing withyour neighbor, like that's a big
part of it, like reallyconnecting and just listening to
people.
I, I know from experience andfrom what I've been doing
recently, uh, I will only changepeople's minds by listening to
them.
Um, can, I cannot, I cannotfacts at them and, and make them
change their mind becausethey've decided this for a
(29:44):
reason, right?
And then they're tied to theiridentity, their social group,
like all these things.
And so I need to listen to themand just ask about why they
think that way or where thatstory came from, like where that
belief came from.
And as we unpack it together,like we can slowly, but it's,
it's moving a boulder, right?
We're just going to slowly nudgeit a little bit along the way of
getting you to be moreintrospective about a topic.
(30:04):
And like, that's what my podcastis about.
Like, I just want you to thinkabout both sides a little bit
more and not just have a quickanswer to some of these topics.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:12):
I like, wanna cry.
Like, honestly, I feel veryvalidated because I feel like,
that's my approach too, like Iwant to just ask questions and
understand.
Because sometimes the reasoningbehind why you think something
is not at all what I thought itwas, you know?
And like even in the math, likethe math education world, like
I'm sure a lot of peoplelistening to this are like, this
(30:33):
probably really resonatesbecause it's so polarized and
people want to take sides.
I think that comes from a placeof fear of being like, well, I
just have to like, pick one sideor like they're going to, like,
I've, I will just say I'vepersonally felt very bullied, in
a way, by people being like,well, you're either with us or
you're against us, like pick.
Whereas I'm like, well, no, likeI agree with a little bit of
(30:55):
column A and a little bit ofcolumn B.
And like, I think that comesfrom fear.
And I actually think it's rootedlike psychologically in like our
tribal nature.
Like when we used to literallylike have enemy tribes after us.
So like to, to notice that isreally important, but what you
said, that idea of being like,until you understand where a
person's coming from, you can'tchange their mind.
But also a big thing I've beenlearning, like I do a lot of
(31:17):
like Deepak Chopra meditation,and a lot of his philosophy is
to not be attached to outcome,to not feel like you ever need
to change someone's mind.
You don't, right?
Like it's important to listen,it's important to be able to
state your opinion, but in mostcases, like the people you're
arguing with or whatever, like,that doesn't need to be your
goal to change your mind, norare you like this martyr that's
(31:39):
going to change their mindnecessarily.
So when you can like let go ofthat, sorry, now this is just a
podcast about me, I've not letyou speak in one minute, in like
10 minutes, but wait, there'sone thing I was going to, I'm
leading up to is what I wasgoing to say is I actually
really believe that most peoplein math education are very well
intentioned.
So like
Chris Luzniak (31:56):
Oh, 100%.
I believe all teachers mean thebest.
That is my default belief.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:01):
Same.
Like, maybe you don't believe inthe way someone's teaching or
whatever it is, but it's like,if you can at least look at that
being like, they're doing thisbecause they believe it's best
for kids.
If we could start with thatfoundation, I feel like the
discussions would be so muchmore, like, fruitful.
Chris Luzniak (32:16):
Yes.
We'd have to be more vulnerablethough, as, as humans and be
okay getting feedback andcriticism and told like this
part isn't working for thestudent.
And like, I don't know, we alsoneed more time and space as
teachers to reflect on all thesethings and we're, I, yeah,
there's no time.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:33):
Well, like, we're gonna have to wrap up, but
I have to ask you one last I'masking you one last thing, and
then I'm going into the finaltwo questions.
Chris Luzniak (32:39):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:40):
So, I've, like, lately been, like, I kind
of want to do a season of thepodcast where I'm like Joe Rogan
but like for math education andlike I only have people on that
I like fundamentally right nowdon't agree with.
Do you think that's a bad careermove?
Chris Luzniak (33:00):
What the hell, Vanessa, I can't, I can't give
you career advice.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:06):
Do you think that's a bad, because we were
talking about this.
People are always like, don'tgive people platforms who you
don't agree with, or like whoare doing something harmful, but
I agree with you in that, like,it's not like I'm going to let
them just monologue on thepodcast.
I want to understand wherethey're coming from and I'd like
to debate with them as well.
Chris Luzniak (33:20):
Yeah, I, I mean, I get a little pushback
sometimes with some of thethings we want to debate and
like, you know, we, we shouldn'tgive those people time and space
to share this idea.
Like you shouldn't memorize mathfacts or whatever, right?
Like we shouldn't have them on,but I, but again, I think
there's a kernel of truth inboth sides and I want to hear
them out and I think everythingonline gets reduced to a
(33:41):
soundbite and so I want to hearthem out.
I just like, the great thingabout mine is we have two sides
on a debate.
So I have someone to countersomething that I might not agree
with to bring out the other sideof things.
And so I want the audience tothink for themselves.
I want to just put it all outthere.
But I feel like if we just keepignoring things, it just kind of
festers and grows, some of theseideas, especially with the
(34:02):
internet and social media.
Many of your listeners thinkflat earth is silly, right, but,
but if we never like, talk aboutit or talk to those people,
they'll just keep like in theirbubble and like festering and
getting angrier and spreading tomore angry people.
And so like, I, I think it'simportant to give space as long
as you're like hearing multiplesides.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:23):
And if you are a flat earther listening to the
podcast, we would love to haveyou on.
So, get in touch with us.
I would love that.
Okay, we need to move on to thefinal two questions.
Okay?
Chris Luzniak (34:35):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:36):
Final two questions.
What is the one thing you'd liketo see change about the way math
is taught in schools?
Chris Luzniak (34:42):
I only get one?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:43):
Yep.
Chris Luzniak (34:44):
Um, I want to change the standards, the
curriculum.
We pack too much in, we race tocalculus for no reason, like it
is.
At least in the U.
S.
I don't know exactly how it allgoes in Canada.
I have some idea.
But like, it is just jam packedwith stuff that we don't need
for any reason.
We, we carry phones andcalculators in our pocket.
(35:06):
We don't need to like, memorizeall these formulas and things.
Like, let's make math much morerelevant and interesting and
update it a lot.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:15):
Love it.
Okay.
And finally, what do you say tosomeone who's like, but Chris,
I'm just not a math person.
Chris Luzniak (35:24):
Uh, there's no such thing.
I, I mean, people say that, yes,but there's no such thing as not
a math person.
What does that mean?
Like you don't know how to countto five.
You don't see patterns in yourlife.
Like what, what, what does thatmean?
I, of course you're a mathperson.
You may not have been a goodschool math person for the
teachers you had, cause theywanted you to do things a
certain way and memorize thingsa certain way or do things, you
(35:46):
know, specifically in onemethod, but, we're all like, I'm
a big escape room enthusiast
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
Oh my god, I love an escape room.
Chris Luzniak (35:54):
I've gone to over a hundred now and we're
counting.
Um, getting involved in someescape rooms locally and stuff
too, but, uh, I love them.
And a lot of the people thatI've met in the community, like
don't see themselves as mathpeople, but I'm like, all you're
doing is looking for patternsand like decoding things.
Like this is math, but this iswhere I see the curriculum and
the standards have failed,because we've told them that
(36:17):
math is memorizing thisencyclopedia of formulas, not
the reasoning and problemsolving that we really want.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:22):
Okay.
All right.
We have to say goodbye soon, buttell us, can you do, no, no.
Can tell us, like, give us, whatdo you want people to know, see,
look you up, like do all thosethings.
So I
Chris Luzniak (36:32):
Yeah.
Come find me.
Um, easiest way is just my lastname, Luzniak.Com, L U Z N I A
K.
On social media, I'm@cluzniak onlike Instagram, Twitter or X or
whatever the heck that is, BlueSky, all those things.
I have a workshop about debatemath on Grassroots Workshop.
I have a book Up For Debate, um,that you can find on Amazon or
(36:52):
anywhere like just come talk tome.
I work with schools anddistricts now and send me an
email.
Let's just talk.
I I'd love to talk about mathwith anyone and, watch how
debate can change yourclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:02):
Oh my god, oh my, like what an amazing
episode.
okay.
Thank you so much for being onthe pod.
Had the best time and goodbye.
Chris Luzniak (37:14):
Goodbye.
love you.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:16):
Love you.
David Kochberg (37:16):
Great job.
Great job saying goodbye.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:22):
Oh my God, guys, I'm obsessed with Chris.
Like, I'm sorry, but now I needto go argue with someone about
something immediately.
Also, do we need a part twoabout cults?
Because literally, if one personsays yes, I will do it.
I honestly think that the ideaof fostering debate vibes in
math class is one of the mostunderrated ideas and I'm so
excited for you guys to try it.
(37:42):
Also, I really want to fight,respectfully, with someone on
Chris's Debate Math podcast, andDan Meyer already said no to me,
so who should it be, and whattopic should we fight about?
DMs are officially open, let meknow, and let's get this show on
the road.
if something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(38:05):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(38:26):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson,
the teacher said, that girl whoshared first has never spoken
all year in my class.
But she several times raised herhand and wanted participate
because she suddenly feltcomfortable.
She suddenly has a voice.
Every side in a debate has somekernel of truth, and I want to
hear more about it to understandwhat's in their head, not just
if they're right or wrong.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so I'm just gonna come inhot and say that I think my
guest might be my math edsoulmate.
I say this for many reasons, themain one being that he went to
school to be a Broadway starbefore becoming a math teacher.
Like, how cool is that?
And actually, I've alwaysthought that teaching is kind of
(01:05):
like performing, so it makessense that today's guest is an
incredible math teacher.
Chris Luzniak, guys! That's whoit is! The king of debate in
math class and host of theDebate Math Podcast.
And what, you might ask, doesdebate have to do with math
class?
How can getting kids morecomfortable with public speaking
in low pressure scenarios helpprevent math anxiety?
And what is the secret tochanging someone's mind?
(01:28):
Well, stay tuned because Chrisis about to tell all and if you
disagree with any of it, you'lljust have to go on his podcast.
Chris.
Welcome to the podcast.
Um, I, our listeners shouldprobably know that we've been
now speaking for about half anhour already all our gold has
already been unrecorded, so nowwe're going to have to repeat it
(01:50):
all.
Chris Luzniak (01:51):
It's a pleasure to be here.
Glad to finally be recordingwith you.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:55):
Oh my god, he's acting so professional.
He's like, and now I'm going tosay something normal.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Um, okay.
Well, I'm just going to pick upwhere we left off of what we
were talking about, because nowI want to know about it and
everyone should know.
So, the last thing you just saidbefore we got rudely cut off by
David telling me to stop yellinginto the microphone was that you
have a joint theatre and mathdegree.
(02:15):
Can I just hear about this andlike, why?
Chris Luzniak (02:17):
Yeah, I didn't fully finish the theater, but I
went to college for theateroriginally because I mean, I was
good at math in high school, butwhat do you do with a math
degree?
And, you know, I had teacherswho lectured at me and I
memorized things and I got the Aand just moved on with my life,
but like, I wasn't going to bea, what does a math major do?
Right?
Um, but theater is really funand exciting and it was like a
hobby of mine.
(02:37):
So, I went to college for that,and then I took a math class in
college with a professor whokind of had like a flipped
classroom where we did someteaching ourselves calculus at
home and then doing problems atthe board kind of like Building
Thinking Classrooms, but like 20some years ago, this was.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:52):
Wow, dropping Building Thinking Classrooms,
it's been one minute of theinterview.
Chris Luzniak (02:56):
But this is before all of that, right?
This is like
Vanessa Vakharia (02:58):
Yeah.
Chris Luzniak (02:59):
2000.
Um, and it was so fun to learnmath that way.
And like everything suddenlyclicked and made sense.
And we were challenged.
And I was like, I want to takemore classes with you, like this
professor, and being a liberalarts college, there wasn't a lot
of people in the math program,so it was very easy to have one
on one time with our professors.
And I just kept taking more mathclasses and I switched to a math
degree.
And I, and then I went to gradschool for math after that.
(03:19):
Like, I just loved, I fell inlove with math and I didn't
fully finish the theater degree.
Like I have a minor or somethingin it.
I don't even remember.
Um, but I took most of theclasses for it cause I still
loved it.
But, uh, yeah, so I have a dualpassion of theater and math.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay, I have so many questions, none of which
were on my list.
But the first is when you, I'mjust curious, when you were
going to take your theatredegree, were you like, I'm going
to be on Broadway.
Like, what did you want?
Like you said, there's nothingyou can do with a math degree.
So, okay, that's what you were
Chris Luzniak (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like singer, dancer,actor, like auditioning at
colleges when I was in a senioryear of like, you know, doing,
songs and dance audition thingsto get into the musical theater
programs, things like that.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:54):
Oh my God.
Well, we're right now watchingOnly Murders in the Building.
Have you seen it?
Chris Luzniak (03:58):
Of course.
Yeah.
Season three.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:59):
So yeah, so I'm just thinking of everything
right now,"which of the pickwick triplets did it?" know,
like that.
Chris Luzniak (04:06):
That is such great catchy song.
Yeah, I mean, that's also why Iended up in New York City.
Like I taught math for almost adecade in New York City, but I,
friends of mine were movingthere to do theater and I had
developed a math and educationkind of pathway on the side.
So I still wanted to go to NewYork with them.
So, uh, I taught in New York andthen I went to Broadway shows in
the evenings.
It was great.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:25):
Okay, so your, your whole thing that like I
really wanted to talk to youabout was debate in math class.
So we're going to talk aboutwhat that actually means.
But I'm wondering like.
It must be, like, I always thinkabout this.
You kind of said that the reasonyou fell back in love with math,
or even fell in love with it tostart with, was because of a
teacher.
You loved, like, his style.
He was doing Peter Liljedahl,while Peter Liljedahl in the
(04:49):
2000s was probably, like, stillin his canoe, like, not even
knowing that he wanted to use awhiteboard.
Fine.
Um, and you loved that.
So, like, that teacher made sucha difference.
But for you, like, that is sucha unique skill set to bring into
a classroom because it must beso incredible to have that,
like, ability to perform whileteaching.
Like, how do you think that kindof helps you be such an engaging
(05:10):
teacher?
Chris Luzniak (05:11):
Ooh, that's complicated.
Cause when I teach, I mean, I'mnot teaching this year, but I
want it to be about thestudents, not about me.
Versus like, if I'm on stage, Iwant it to be about me, right?
Me and look at my skills.
So, um, but it helps like thosebackground skills help in like
the improv way and the like, howto like um, read the audience
way that like, I can see what'shappening and I kind of keep
(05:34):
things moving.
Like people notice when theycome to observe my classroom,
like things keep moving, kidsare always busy doing different
things.
And I, I can sense when it'slike, we spent enough time on
this problem.
Let's like, either talk aboutthe answer or move on to
something else.
Like it just like, it keepsflowing.
And so like that, those kinds oflike softer skills or background
skills, I think, really kick inwhen I, when I'm in front of a
group or working with a group.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:54):
That's such a cool way to think about it,
because I was totally justthinking about you in the
spotlight, but what a cool wayto flip it around to be like,
no, like one of my greatestskills is being able to like,
read the room and react to theaudience.
And like, what could possibly bemore student centered than that?
Right?
Like, I feel like, you know,this is a podcast about math
trauma, and one of the things Ioften talk about is that, like,
(06:15):
you're not going to go up toevery student and be like, hey,
do you have trauma?
Like, what someone do to hurtyou?
But, like, to build those activelistening or observational
skills so that you can spotsigns.
So, like, I feel like that'sactually so cool that you're
using that skill in a way ofbeing like, how is my audience
reacting?
How do I have to change myapproach as a teacher?
And that kind of stuff.
And now I'm thinking about, Iwant to hear about this debate
(06:38):
in math class thing.
How did it start?
Because this really plays in forme.
I'm just thinking about you as aperformer, watching the audience
and like encouraging debate.
So tell me about it.
Chris Luzniak (06:47):
Yes, so before I was in the theater, um, I had a
teacher in high school, Englishteacher who convinced me to join
speech and debate team atschool.
And I was a somewhatintroverted, pretty shy, nerdy
freshman.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:06):
I can't see it.
Chris Luzniak (07:07):
And well, when I did speeches and competition,
like I suddenly came out of myshell, like it was like my, like
10 minutes to like perform mything.
And then I sat back down.
Right.
But like, when I'm on, I was onand I suddenly, it just like
kicked in in me like this, likepassion for like, I want to be
up there and performing anddoing things and talking to
people.
And it like brought me out of myshell.
A million times over.
(07:27):
Like I, I can remember in likeelementary school, I never
wanted to talk in class at all.
Like I just never feltcomfortable no matter how much I
knew the answer or whatever.
Like I wouldn't, I was someonewho wouldn't raise my hand when
I was younger.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:36):
Why?
Chris Luzniak (07:37):
I, just too shy.
I don't know.
I just didn't feel like I hadenough to contribute or I just
wasn't comfortable for somereason.
And, speech and debate, like,changed my whole perspective of
like what I can do or how, myconfidence level and all these
things.
And so, yeah, so that, that ledme to theater and all that stuff
down the road.
And so when I was teaching, inNew York City, my first couple
of years, I was also coachingspeech and debate.
(07:59):
I started a team at the schoolthat I was at.
And I noticed that after schoolkids never wanted to leave my
room.
They wanted to read really likedull articles about like
healthcare policy or, you know,like foreign affairs, whatever,
um, cause they wanted to win thedebate that coming weekend when
we went to the competition,right.
Or they wanted to practice thespeech they wrote with me over
(08:20):
and over again.
And I was like, why is like thisso compelling for kids?
And why is math class a placewhere they just kind of, you
slouch down, you know, hide inthe back and just kind of only
spoke if, if they're forced to.
And so I tried to merge thosetwo worlds and just playing with
a lot of ideas around studentdiscourse.
And then also just askingquestions that are more
debatable than just what's theanswer, but like, what's, what's
(08:43):
the best method for going this,or what might be your first
step, or looking at twoincorrect answers and being
like, who has the coolestmistake here?
And just getting things wherelike, there's an opinion behind
it and math wasn't just cold andabout getting the answers
anymore.
And suddenly I saw kids start tolean in and say, I want to share
my thought on this, because I'masking for their opinions, we
know teenagers are full ofopinions, they share their
(09:04):
ideas.
And so when I flipped that andmade math more about sharing
your ideas about things, kidsreally wanted to talk.
And so this is what I do nowwith teachers.
When I work with teachers, like.
I work with them to buildclassroom routines and questions
and activities where studentsare sharing their opinion, maybe
not all the time, but at leastparts of classes here and there
to get the culture to shift fromanswer getting to like really
(09:27):
leaning in and talking aboutyour ideas.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:30):
I'm obsessed with this.
Okay, so I'm obsessed with this.
So, to, uh, my first questionis, what did you learn in, in
your speech and debateexperience that, like, all of a
sudden shifted your perspectiveto being like, I'm really
comfortable talking and sharingmy opinion.
Like, what were some of the coreskills?
Because like, we're always like,I do this, I'm like, just don't
be afraid to take a risk.
That's not like a skill though.
Chris Luzniak (09:50):
Yeah, I just learned by doing it a bunch of
times, my comfort and confidencereally grew and I just have to
do it.
Like, I can't do it once and belike, I'm, I got over my public
speaking fear.
Right.
But if I it every weekend orevery other weekend or whatever,
uh, it becomes more comfortableand the more I do it.
And so I want in my classroom,my students to do the same
(10:10):
thing.
I want them to talk, once, twicea week, at least, right?
Like maybe every class, if I, ifI could, depends how big my
classes are and where I'mteaching, but like, can it
become a routine that like onceor twice every week they have to
like share with each other,share with the whole class,
share with a small group,whatever size of audience we're
working with.
But I want it to be comfortableand it only becomes comfortable
(10:31):
if you repeat, repeat, repeat.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:33):
Hmm.
Like consistency.
Like, even when you're workingout, it's more important to just
be consistent than to like liftheavy weights once a week,
right?
Like consistency, consistency.
So what you're saying aboutrepetition, I love that.
But I'm also wondering, like, isthere, I, I've actually never
like done any sort of structureddebate, waiting for someone to
have me on their podcast so Ican do it.
Chris Luzniak (10:53):
Okay.
I got the hint.
I got the hint.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:55):
We'll talk about that shortly.
What I'm wondering is, can youtell me like how debate works?
Cause you have a podcast whereyou have adults debating
mathematical ideas and concepts,but you also do it in class.
Are there like rules?
Like, how does it work?
Chris Luzniak (11:10):
Well, I'd say it depends how formal you're being.
If I have like a five minutewarm up question with students
at the beginning of class, andI'm just like, what's the best
pizza topping or, you know,what's the best method for
solving this problem, whateverit is, it's quick.
And it's just like you get your30 seconds to kind of share your
idea.
And I have a little structurearound it.
I use some sentence stems, like"my claim is, my warrant is",
(11:30):
um, but on that like low keylevel, it's just about like a
quick, you know, 20 seconds inthe spotlight, share your ideas
and someone else goes.
But it's about one persontalking, that's like, that's the
only rule and everyone else justlistening and practicing our
listening skills.
But as I get bigger, like if Ido a project with a class where
we're going to have like a fulldebate for like a whole day, or
on my podcast, when I get adultstogether and they have different
(11:52):
viewpoints and we're all goingto debate, there is a structure
to it, which if you're, whenyou're on in the future,
Vanessa Vakharia (11:58):
But like, tell briefly what it is.
Chris Luzniak (12:00):
Yeah, I mean, I just do a simple, like everyone
gets an opening statement andthen we have a questioning
round.
And then there's a closing roundwhere you kind of summarize your
main points one last time.
But for me, the openingstatements is the most important
because everyone gets their 2minutes to say whatever they
want and to like, kind of starttheir case.
It's kind of like, you know, in,uh, in a courtroom, kind of like
the opening statements there.
(12:21):
And then the questioning roundis where my host and I just ask
questions, and we just have aconversation, because I want to
hear more about some of thethings you said, or I want to
talk about some things thatdidn't come up in your opening
statement, because you can't fiteverything you want to say in 2
minutes, but you like, your 2minutes is like you set the tone
and say what you really want toget across.
We'll casually talk throughthings in the questioning round.
And we say to all our guests,like, I really believe both
(12:43):
sides have something to share.
And so the questions, there's nogotchas in the questions.
We just want to know, like, canyou say more about that?
We don't come out with like, butwhat about this?
Right.
We're not, we're notcross-examining someone.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:53):
You're not being a reply guy.
Did I use that right?
Chris Luzniak (12:57):
I don't know what that means.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:59):
Okay, David is shaking his head.
Never mind, go on.
Chris Luzniak (13:02):
I want people to be comfortable and I want to
hear them out.
I, I really believe at least inalmost every debate we have and
most debates I have in life thatboth sides are seeing things,
uh, with truth, like we havesome misunderstandings or some
different goals in mind.
That's why we really debate.
Like, you know, the, um, like onsocial media you see all the
time, like the cylinder, like ifI look from one end, it's a
(13:22):
circle, but if you look from theside, it's a, it's a rectangle.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that.
Chris Luzniak (13:25):
We both see like different shapes, right?
But we're both right.
Like, we're just like, I'mviewing things with this lens or
with this goal in mind.
Like I want to get my kids topass the state exams.
Like that's different than whatyou want to do, if you want them
to feel comfortable withlearning math is, you know, we
have different goals atdifferent moments.
And so I want to hear them allout.
Cause there's points to be madeon all sides.
(13:46):
And so I don't want, I wanteveryone to feel comfortable.
I just want to dwell in thatgray area in the middle we talk
about a lot, where there is noright or wrong, it's just shades
of gray.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:55):
Do you think there's something to the
structure of it?
Because it's like I'm imaginingyou starting your class, a lot
of teachers try to do this,right, of just being like so,
like, what's the best way tosolve this problem?
Versus We have five minutes.
Everyone has 20 seconds, what'sthe best way to solve this
problem?
Like, is there something aboutthe structure of it that lends
itself to kids being more likewilling to share?
(14:18):
Cause they know that it's goingto follow a format.
They know that like, is theresomething there?
Chris Luzniak (14:22):
Yeah.
I would say it's two things.
It's the fact that you're askingfor an opinion, not the answer.
So even if I don't know how todo that, I can give an opinion
of like, I might do this first,like, and just throw something
out there.
So it's easier to join theconversation.
And then I have, like I said, Ihave the sentence frame,"my
claim is my warrant is".
Vanessa Vakharia (14:38):
What does that mean?
Like explain that my claim is?
My warrant, like use it.
Chris Luzniak (14:42):
My claim is dogs are the best pets, and my
warrant is because they're socuddly.
And,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:49):
Ohhhh.
Chris Luzniak (14:50):
So warrant means reason, it's just a fancy, I
took it from the debate world.
Like warrant means reason.
Um, it's just a, an oldfashioned word for reason.
But I, I also tell teachers allthe time when I work with them,
I lucked onto this.
I was just playing withdifferent sentence frame ideas.
The word warrant is somethingspecial, and claim even too,
because it's not part of thestudents' everyday vocabulary.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:11):
It's like, fancy.
Chris Luzniak (15:13):
Yeah, so if you ask them to say like,"I think
because", it becomes a lot morelike informal and it becomes
like almost personal when peoplereply like in the opposite side
of things.
But when you say"my claim, mywarrant", it sounds like this
fancy thing, that's like reallyjust you're throwing an idea out
there and people are attackingthe idea and not the person.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:30):
I love this! I'm always going on about how
language is so important, butit's like every day I realize I
didn't even realize howimportant language was or like
in what context, like even thistiny little thing can like
shift.
So, okay.
Oh my God.
I have like three questions,which one am I going to ask
first?
My first one actually is this.
With what you're saying, butalso with a lot of like ideas
educators have of like newframeworks and things to do, I
(15:52):
find that one thing we, wealmost like take for granted is
the relationship building thatneeds to happen before you can
do something like this.
Right?
Like, so I was, I was wonderingabout that.
You know, if you were givingadvice to educators and you were
like, go do this claim warrantstuff, yay.
Would you be like, but firstthere's some stuff you have to
do.
Like, are there, is thererelationship building?
Do you have to teach conflictresolution?
(16:12):
Like, do you need to make sureit's a safe space?
Like, how do you do thosethings?
Chris Luzniak (16:17):
Uh, that's complicated because any, ways to
build relationships aredifferent from teacher to
teacher and even from year toyear and different students.
Yes, all of that's true.
Like, I need to create acomfortable environment where
they feel safe to share theirideas.
But I say, I like, start theyear with debate, and
relationship building at thesame time.
And they're kind of working handin hand.
Like I think making them alittle uncomfortable about
(16:38):
having them share out the firstor second day of class, um,
opens them up to a little bit ofvulnerability, but like I do it
in a loving, careful way.
And so the, I want them to knowthat they, their voice is
valued, and, um, it's okay to beuncomfortable in this class.
But I, I'm here to support youand only say positive things
about this, uh, when you shareout.
And like, I start debate withlike best pizza topping, best
(16:59):
ice cream,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:00):
Like chill stuff.
Chris Luzniak (17:01):
Like, we're not even talking about math because
math anxiety could, couldheighten the level of someone's
stress.
But if I ask you to talk about,you know, the best video game or
the best musician.
You have an opinion and it'sokay to share.
And even just share in like a,in a partner format, like a pair
share or in a small group, likejust each, each person in your
group share with each other,like, what's your, what's the
best ice cream flavor?
(17:21):
And my claim is, my warrant is,just get that practice down and
then we'll build up to like,talking in front of the class,
maybe.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:26):
Mh hmm.
So it's funny, you brought upmath anxiety and this podcast is
called Math Therapy.
So it's very much about that,like how do we spot anxiety?
How do we deal with it?
How do we manage it?
How do we help kids overcome it?
And I want to go back to whatyou just said about being like,
well, first I ask, you know,about chill things that have
nothing to do with math.
Otherwise, math anxiety might,and then we didn't finish the
sentence because I startedlaughing.
(17:46):
So can we, can we go back tothat?
Like.
Tell me what you mean and whatpower you think debate might
have, because I think it couldbe such a powerful tool in
helping kids overcome previousmath trauma.
Chris Luzniak (17:59):
Yeah.
so like I said, first, I don'tstart with math.
Because if you just say, I wantyou to speak, and that student
has a fear of public speaking,and talk about math, that is,
could be like be beyond theirthreshold, like tenfold, right?
It is so stressful to do that,but if I'm just like, I want you
to speak about ice cream, that'sa great way to get into it.
But then when we start talkingabout math, it's very gently and
just like, Hey, what do youthink is the best method for
(18:21):
this?
Or, here's like two mistakes Imade on this problem.
Which one is the better mistake,whatever the coolest mistake,
whatever that means.
Right.
Um, which I love.
Cause then they're, when I do abest mistake debate, I love that
because then they say the bestmistake is that, and they're
valuing mistakes in my class,which is a whole nother layer of
awesomeness that happens.
Um, what was your question?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:43):
Well, I also was like so unfair.
I was like, I didn't even askhim a question.
So, no, that, so that, good.
You're like, you were justtalking about how you bring up
like basically a non curriculartopic to get them talking.
And then you like wean intomath.
And I, my, my real question is,What power do you think debate
in math class has in helpingkids work through their math
anxiety and their math trauma?
Chris Luzniak (19:05):
A, a lot.
I don't have like researchedanswers, but I can say like,
from experience
Vanessa Vakharia (19:09):
You don't need a, this is not a research
podcast in case that wasn't veryclear.
Chris Luzniak (19:14):
Screw that.
Uh, no, uh, um,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:18):
Just from your experience, like, have you seen
it transform anyone?
Chris Luzniak (19:21):
Yeah.
I think there's something aboutasking about the process and not
the answer.
Like the students don't feellike they have to be correct.
And so students are more eagerto jump in.
And I, like, I work a lot withteachers now as a consultant.
And I just think about, like, acouple months ago, I was working
with some teachers, and theyasked me to model debate in
their class.
So I just, we went in, weplanned a lesson ahead of time,
(19:42):
and then I went in and taughtit, and the first thing I did
was ask a debate question about,about something, I can't
remember, a slope or something.
Um, you know, a girl raised herhand and shared out, some more
people shared out.
And at the end, when wedebriefed the lesson, the
teacher said, that girl whoshared first has never spoken
all year in my class.
But she several times raised herhand and wanted participate
because she suddenly feltcomfortable, she suddenly has a
(20:04):
voice.
She doesn't have to know theanswer, but she has some opinion
about things, and so she cantalk about it.
And then maybe, hopefully, as ateacher, she's going to learn it
as we talk about it, becauseshe's not just being passive and
ignoring me anymore, right?
She's engaged in the learning alittle bit, which is my goal.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
And I would like imagine so many amazing
things could come from thisbecause it's like, once that
girl is talking, she's morelikely to talk or raise her hand
when she has an actual questionabout something.
You know what I mean?
It's like now her voice is beingvalued in the classroom.
She's broken the ice and she'salready used it.
It's like the gateway drug, likedebate is the gateway drug to
actually like
Chris Luzniak (20:40):
To joining math class.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:41):
Yeah.
Like I think it's very, cool.
Chris Luzniak (20:43):
And I was gonna say, like, I think a lot of it
is students come in thinkingmath is like black and white,
and there's like this, thisdesired answer and the desired
method that you want, andthere's no, like, options, and
there's, there's no openness toit.
And, uh, so debate helps themsee that like, I'm not looking
for you to say seven and then Ican give you a sticker and we
(21:04):
can move on.
I'm looking to hear yourthoughts and like that is much
more engaging for students andmuch more manageable for them to
join in and not feel likeanxious about, do I have the
right answer or am I, am I goodat math or am I dumb?
You know, that kind of likeblack and white polarized thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Well, and that's so, so I'm like such a
big proponent of the fact thatlike, cool, I want kids to learn
math, I do.
But I also think that the mostimportant thing that can come
out of math class is the beliefthat you are capable of more
than you thought you were.
Because so many kids go intomath class with a deficit
perspective, because they'vebeen told at some point that
they can't do math in thetraditional sense of like
(21:40):
getting the right answerquickly, whatever.
So, like, to me, I'm like, oneskill, we were talking about
this when we weren't recording,one skill that I think the
world, we can both agree theworld needs now more than ever
is the ability to hear differentopinions, to actively listen, to
be open minded, to feel like youcan speak your mind while also
(22:02):
not just teaming up with oneside because we're so polarized.
And like what an incredible wayto build that skill in math
class in a place where peopleare already scared.
Like, I'm just, like, sofascinated by all the, like,
rich work you're doing.
Because I would imagine that,like, kids leave your math class
being like, well, this is howyou, you engage with, this is
(22:22):
how you communicate.
Like, you listen to people, yousometimes see two sides of a
story.
Chris Luzniak (22:29):
Yes, I will say, uh, when I'm, modeling a lesson
in teacher's classrooms andstuff, one of the biggest
feedback comments I get fromteachers is you're a really good
listener.
Like, I think all the time, likewe're so listening for the right
answer, and I'm just listeningto the student and like, what is
it, you know, or don't know.
(22:50):
And like, think about like, uh,if you have a square with a side
of four and ask for the area,you say 16, you might have been
counting the perimeter.
Right?
Like I, 16 doesn't mean you'reright.
So it's like say more to mefirst.
Right?
Um, Or like I did this, with astudent.
I said something like what's 10plus 10, some younger students,
and they said, uh, eight.
(23:10):
And instead of shutting themdown saying you're wrong, I was
just like, Oh, so tell me howyou got that.
And they're like, well, 10o'clock plus 10 hours is eight
because we had been talkingabout time, like kind of on a
tangent, but her mind was stillon that.
And so instead of shutting herdown and being like, you're
right, you're wrong.
I'm just like, tell me aboutyour thinking.
And she was totally right.
10 plus 10 is eight when you'retalking about time in some, some
(23:30):
sense.
And so I go back to my point.
Like, I think every side in adebate has some kernel of truth,
something that they're, they'regetting at.
And I want to hear more about itto understand what's in their
head, not just if they're rightor wrong.
And I think we're, this worldjust, everyone just wants to be
right or wrong.
I want to be in the right, rightpolitical party.
I want to be in the right group.
I want to go to the rightcollege, like all these right
things.
And it's like, just, just enjoylife and the complications of
(23:53):
it.
And I, we're getting furtherfrom that as we get more
polarized.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:57):
So, this is the thing I really wanted to
talk about because I've alsonoticed as, you know, we're both
podcasters, you have guests on,you engage in discussion, I am
on social media all the timetalking about things.
I, I know everyone's noticedthis, but I, like, when I tell
my friends, when I'm like, oh mygod, I'm getting all these like,
crazy, I just got two newcomments today on my Instagram
(24:17):
post.
Can I read them to you?
My post was, my post was about,um, whether we should memorize
math facts or not.
Comment number one:"oh my god,you're today's winner of the
dumbest idea on the internet".
And then let me tell you thesecond comment,"girl, shut up".
The reason I bring that up iswhen I tell my friends this,
they're like, wait, about math?
(24:39):
And I'm like, yes.
I'm like, like, you know,they're used to the, you know,
the polarized things you see onthe internet about like, juicier
stuff, politics racism, sexism,climate don't know.
And they're like, wait, aboutthe times tables?
And I'm like, yes, because it'sliterally everywhere.
Like it's literally everywhere.
And I think about like yourstudents having opinion, like
(25:01):
take social media out of it,your students having opinions on
the best way to solve a problemor the fact that they get the
wrong answer.
And they are probably actuallyused to thinking.
Well, I'm going to be shut, I'mgoing to be told I'm fucking
stupid.
Like, this girl just told me toshut up on the internet.
Like, that's probably whatthey're expecting.
So, A, you're raising ageneration, like, of kids, of
young people, who know not toengage with one another that
(25:22):
way.
That's the first very coolthing.
But how do we, reconcile thefact that even though we might
be technically or visibly orlike, you know, objectively on
the opposite side of thespectrum on someone, on an
opinion, that we can still havesomething in common.
Does that make sense?
Like I, I feel like it's like,like I have a neighbor with a
(25:45):
Confederate flag, which I, Icould, I could shut that down
immediately and be like, I'mnever gonna speak to him.
We obviously don't agree on thefact that he thinks it's okay to
fly a confederate flag, but wehave a ton of stuff in common
and we have learned that throughspeaking with each other for two
years and engaging inconversation and actually quite
respectfully disagreeing withone another when we do and
(26:07):
agreeing with each other when wedo.
Chris Luzniak (26:09):
I love that.
I wish, I wish that was what wesaw in news media, the
respectful disagreements.
Like I disagree with you on thishealthcare policy because, but
I, but I understand where you'recoming from.
We just see people looking forsoundbites and to polarize their
audience quickly.
So they get the votes, not athoughtful, like well reasoned
discussion.
And like I was saying to youearlier, that this is, my
(26:31):
podcast is an hour long everytime, because I want to hear
people out and I want them totalk through their ideas and not
just give me a quick soundbiteof like memorize facts or don't
memorize facts.
We're done.
I'm like, why is that?
Or what, what times would youmemorize or not memorize?
Like, you know, how nuanced isyour answer?
And, I think that makes us allbetter if we hear both sides out
(26:53):
because then we can decide forourselves what really works for
us.
Because every teacher isdifferent, every district is
different, school, students,right?
So I don't think there's oneright way to teach anything
specifically, but I want you to,if you're going to do some
action, do it well informed ofwhat the different options are,
the different sides would say,like why you might or why you
might not do this, what good orharm each side could be doing
(27:16):
for what you're doing forstudents.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:18):
So, do you ever, like, get into a
situation, because I feel likethis would happen to me, it's
not just because I'm, like, aGemini and I can see both sides,
but, like, do you ever have asituation where your two podcast
guests are on different sides,and at the end, they, like, come
around to agree with each other?
Chris Luzniak (27:33):
Oh, uh, yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (27:34):
Yeah?
Chris Luzniak (27:35):
Yeah, yeah.
I wouldn't say like in fullagreement, but they like, they
find lots of common groundsometimes, uh, sometimes, not
always, But the Venn diagramlike can overlap more and more
as we talk about things.
And this is just like yourneighbor.
Like the more you talk, the moreyou see that your Venn diagrams
overlap.
And I wish we all did that.
And that, that's actually a lotof the work that I'm doing now
(27:56):
is I've been researching andworking with some organizations.
Like, how do you actually changesomeone's mind?
And like looking at likeresearch and like cult mentality
and
Vanessa Vakharia (28:05):
Ooh, oh my god, wait, wait, wait, wait,
what?
You said my, said my amazingtrigger word.
I love cults.
What about it?
Chris Luzniak (28:12):
This is a whole nother discussion for another
day.
We can go on for hours.
But, like, I just, like, howmuch people, um, once they,
like, lean into something, theyare more afraid to change their
mind if they're going to upsettheir social group.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:25):
Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, have you seen
the Flat Earth documentary?
Chris Luzniak (28:29):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:30):
No, no, no.
I'm serious.
What's it called?
Beyond the,
Chris Luzniak (28:33):
Beyond The Curve?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:34):
Beyond The Curve.
You have to, because it's allabout it, and it's like, so you
just said if it's going to upsettheir social group, and I would
go one step further becausewhat, what the guy says in
there, because basically by theend of the documentary, like,
they have proven to him that theworld is not flat, and he's just
like, I can't change my opinionon this, because, it's who I am
at this point and my entirefriend, like exactly my social,
(28:57):
I would have nothing if I let goof it.
Like the closer you like, um,attach an opinion to who you
are, you can't let go of it.
Whereas if I'm like, well, I'mthis very multifaceted person,
and one of the many things Ibelieve is like, there are other
ways to learn your math factsthan memorize, it's easier for
me to change my mind, causethat's not like my core
identity.
Chris Luzniak (29:18):
For sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:18):
So how do you change people's minds?
Like, what are you finding?
Chris Luzniak (29:22):
it's a, long discussion.
Um, but what you're doing withyour neighbor, like that's a big
part of it, like reallyconnecting and just listening to
people.
I, I know from experience andfrom what I've been doing
recently, uh, I will only changepeople's minds by listening to
them.
Um, can, I cannot, I cannotfacts at them and, and make them
change their mind becausethey've decided this for a
(29:44):
reason, right?
And then they're tied to theiridentity, their social group,
like all these things.
And so I need to listen to themand just ask about why they
think that way or where thatstory came from, like where that
belief came from.
And as we unpack it together,like we can slowly, but it's,
it's moving a boulder, right?
We're just going to slowly nudgeit a little bit along the way of
getting you to be moreintrospective about a topic.
(30:04):
And like, that's what my podcastis about.
Like, I just want you to thinkabout both sides a little bit
more and not just have a quickanswer to some of these topics.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:12):
I like, wanna cry.
Like, honestly, I feel veryvalidated because I feel like,
that's my approach too, like Iwant to just ask questions and
understand.
Because sometimes the reasoningbehind why you think something
is not at all what I thought itwas, you know?
And like even in the math, likethe math education world, like
I'm sure a lot of peoplelistening to this are like, this
(30:33):
probably really resonatesbecause it's so polarized and
people want to take sides.
I think that comes from a placeof fear of being like, well, I
just have to like, pick one sideor like they're going to, like,
I've, I will just say I'vepersonally felt very bullied, in
a way, by people being like,well, you're either with us or
you're against us, like pick.
Whereas I'm like, well, no, likeI agree with a little bit of
(30:55):
column A and a little bit ofcolumn B.
And like, I think that comesfrom fear.
And I actually think it's rootedlike psychologically in like our
tribal nature.
Like when we used to literallylike have enemy tribes after us.
So like to, to notice that isreally important, but what you
said, that idea of being like,until you understand where a
person's coming from, you can'tchange their mind.
But also a big thing I've beenlearning, like I do a lot of
(31:17):
like Deepak Chopra meditation,and a lot of his philosophy is
to not be attached to outcome,to not feel like you ever need
to change someone's mind.
You don't, right?
Like it's important to listen,it's important to be able to
state your opinion, but in mostcases, like the people you're
arguing with or whatever, like,that doesn't need to be your
goal to change your mind, norare you like this martyr that's
(31:39):
going to change their mindnecessarily.
So when you can like let go ofthat, sorry, now this is just a
podcast about me, I've not letyou speak in one minute, in like
10 minutes, but wait, there'sone thing I was going to, I'm
leading up to is what I wasgoing to say is I actually
really believe that most peoplein math education are very well
intentioned.
So like
Chris Luzniak (31:56):
Oh, 100%.
I believe all teachers mean thebest.
That is my default belief.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:01):
Same.
Like, maybe you don't believe inthe way someone's teaching or
whatever it is, but it's like,if you can at least look at that
being like, they're doing thisbecause they believe it's best
for kids.
If we could start with thatfoundation, I feel like the
discussions would be so muchmore, like, fruitful.
Chris Luzniak (32:16):
Yes.
We'd have to be more vulnerablethough, as, as humans and be
okay getting feedback andcriticism and told like this
part isn't working for thestudent.
And like, I don't know, we alsoneed more time and space as
teachers to reflect on all thesethings and we're, I, yeah,
there's no time.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:33):
Well, like, we're gonna have to wrap up, but
I have to ask you one last I'masking you one last thing, and
then I'm going into the finaltwo questions.
Chris Luzniak (32:39):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:40):
So, I've, like, lately been, like, I kind
of want to do a season of thepodcast where I'm like Joe Rogan
but like for math education andlike I only have people on that
I like fundamentally right nowdon't agree with.
Do you think that's a bad careermove?
Chris Luzniak (33:00):
What the hell, Vanessa, I can't, I can't give
you career advice.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:06):
Do you think that's a bad, because we were
talking about this.
People are always like, don'tgive people platforms who you
don't agree with, or like whoare doing something harmful, but
I agree with you in that, like,it's not like I'm going to let
them just monologue on thepodcast.
I want to understand wherethey're coming from and I'd like
to debate with them as well.
Chris Luzniak (33:20):
Yeah, I, I mean, I get a little pushback
sometimes with some of thethings we want to debate and
like, you know, we, we shouldn'tgive those people time and space
to share this idea.
Like you shouldn't memorize mathfacts or whatever, right?
Like we shouldn't have them on,but I, but again, I think
there's a kernel of truth inboth sides and I want to hear
them out and I think everythingonline gets reduced to a
(33:41):
soundbite and so I want to hearthem out.
I just like, the great thingabout mine is we have two sides
on a debate.
So I have someone to countersomething that I might not agree
with to bring out the other sideof things.
And so I want the audience tothink for themselves.
I want to just put it all outthere.
But I feel like if we just keepignoring things, it just kind of
festers and grows, some of theseideas, especially with the
(34:02):
internet and social media.
Many of your listeners thinkflat earth is silly, right, but,
but if we never like, talk aboutit or talk to those people,
they'll just keep like in theirbubble and like festering and
getting angrier and spreading tomore angry people.
And so like, I, I think it'simportant to give space as long
as you're like hearing multiplesides.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:23):
And if you are a flat earther listening to the
podcast, we would love to haveyou on.
So, get in touch with us.
I would love that.
Okay, we need to move on to thefinal two questions.
Okay?
Chris Luzniak (34:35):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:36):
Final two questions.
What is the one thing you'd liketo see change about the way math
is taught in schools?
Chris Luzniak (34:42):
I only get one?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:43):
Yep.
Chris Luzniak (34:44):
Um, I want to change the standards, the
curriculum.
We pack too much in, we race tocalculus for no reason, like it
is.
At least in the U.
S.
I don't know exactly how it allgoes in Canada.
I have some idea.
But like, it is just jam packedwith stuff that we don't need
for any reason.
We, we carry phones andcalculators in our pocket.
(35:06):
We don't need to like, memorizeall these formulas and things.
Like, let's make math much morerelevant and interesting and
update it a lot.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:15):
Love it.
Okay.
And finally, what do you say tosomeone who's like, but Chris,
I'm just not a math person.
Chris Luzniak (35:24):
Uh, there's no such thing.
I, I mean, people say that, yes,but there's no such thing as not
a math person.
What does that mean?
Like you don't know how to countto five.
You don't see patterns in yourlife.
Like what, what, what does thatmean?
I, of course you're a mathperson.
You may not have been a goodschool math person for the
teachers you had, cause theywanted you to do things a
certain way and memorize thingsa certain way or do things, you
(35:46):
know, specifically in onemethod, but, we're all like, I'm
a big escape room enthusiast
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
Oh my god, I love an escape room.
Chris Luzniak (35:54):
I've gone to over a hundred now and we're
counting.
Um, getting involved in someescape rooms locally and stuff
too, but, uh, I love them.
And a lot of the people thatI've met in the community, like
don't see themselves as mathpeople, but I'm like, all you're
doing is looking for patternsand like decoding things.
Like this is math, but this iswhere I see the curriculum and
the standards have failed,because we've told them that
(36:17):
math is memorizing thisencyclopedia of formulas, not
the reasoning and problemsolving that we really want.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:22):
Okay.
All right.
We have to say goodbye soon, buttell us, can you do, no, no.
Can tell us, like, give us, whatdo you want people to know, see,
look you up, like do all thosethings.
So I
Chris Luzniak (36:32):
Yeah.
Come find me.
Um, easiest way is just my lastname, Luzniak.Com, L U Z N I A
K.
On social media, I'm@cluzniak onlike Instagram, Twitter or X or
whatever the heck that is, BlueSky, all those things.
I have a workshop about debatemath on Grassroots Workshop.
I have a book Up For Debate, um,that you can find on Amazon or
(36:52):
anywhere like just come talk tome.
I work with schools anddistricts now and send me an
email.
Let's just talk.
I I'd love to talk about mathwith anyone and, watch how
debate can change yourclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:02):
Oh my god, oh my, like what an amazing
episode.
okay.
Thank you so much for being onthe pod.
Had the best time and goodbye.
Chris Luzniak (37:14):
Goodbye.
love you.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:16):
Love you.
David Kochberg (37:16):
Great job.
Great job saying goodbye.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:22):
Oh my God, guys, I'm obsessed with Chris.
Like, I'm sorry, but now I needto go argue with someone about
something immediately.
Also, do we need a part twoabout cults?
Because literally, if one personsays yes, I will do it.
I honestly think that the ideaof fostering debate vibes in
math class is one of the mostunderrated ideas and I'm so
excited for you guys to try it.
(37:42):
Also, I really want to fight,respectfully, with someone on
Chris's Debate Math podcast, andDan Meyer already said no to me,
so who should it be, and whattopic should we fight about?
DMs are officially open, let meknow, and let's get this show on
the road.
if something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(38:05):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(38:26):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
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