June 19, 2025 • 37 mins
First of all, big news: as of this fall, Math Therapy will be a weekly podcast! This has long been a goal, so after 6 glorious 10-episode seasons and a bunch of bonus eps along the way, we'll be hitting your feed every single Thursday starting September.
For now, we are back this month with 2 special interviews we recorded earlier in the year with some friends we made in Bali, Indonesia. (Next week's episode will legit blow your mind!!)
Today, Vanessa explores the power of intuition and its role in math education with Rebecca McLeod, an artist/designer, yogi/meditator, and all around chill vibe. Rebecca shares how discovering sacred geometry as an adult led her to reconnect with math and examine the idea of a deep and inner sense of knowing. They discuss how this kind of intuitive thinking can help students engage with math on a more personal (and, dare we say, spiritual!) level, and how that can help them build real confidence in their learning. They also share practical tips for both teachers and students to tap into their intuition, and highlight the importance of creating a loving and curiosity-driven math classroom.
If you've ever struggled with math anxiety or felt disconnected from math, this episode offers a fresh, grounded, and empowering outlook.
Show notes:
- The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life, Vol 1 by Drunvalo Melchizedek
- The Flower of Life (google image search)
- Wikipedia article on Sacred Geometry
- Connect with Rebecca on Instagram @rebxxart
- Connect with Vanessa: @themathguru (Insta, Twitter, TikTok)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca MacLeod (00:03):
The goal is to have an experience.
To be in the experience of theunknown.
Is math really the outcome hereor is it learning to trust
yourself when you don't knowwhat to do?
It's okay to listen and tobreathe and to ask for help, And
what do I learn when I get itwrong?
This isn't who you are.
(00:24):
Your test score is not who youare.
This is a way for you to get toknow yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:29):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:52):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay.
Let me ask you something.
What if math didn't have to bejust about getting the right
answer?
What if it could actually helpyou connect to something bigger,
like your intuition or yourcreativity, your true essence,
or even your soul?
Well, today I am talking toRebecca McLeod, an artist,
(01:13):
intuition expert, and generallymagical human being who has one
of the coolest perspectives I'veever heard about how we can
experience and engage with math.
I met her while I was inIndonesia this winter, and I
just had to have her on the pod,the first of two bonus episodes
we're sharing with you thismonth.
Today you'll hear us talk abouthow intuition belongs just as
much as logic in the mathclassroom, what sacred geometry
(01:36):
is, and how it can help usconnect with math on a spiritual
level, and what happens when westop pressuring students and
start inviting curiosity.
We also get into how fear showsup in learning and how to tell
the difference between fear andintuition, which is actually so
important because most of ushave been taught to ignore both.
If you've ever felt like mathjust wasn't for you, or you've
(01:57):
had like this gut feeling,there's more to it than
memorizing formulas, thisepisode is gonna blow your mind.
Also, if you're a longtimelistener, you're probably
thinking"what is even going onwith this podcast?
Episodes are dropping in arandom fashion, which I cannot
comprehend." And you're right,but I have a surprise for you
guys.
We've been working behind thescenes to turn this podcast into
(02:17):
something much bigger and moreconsistent.
I'll tell you more at the end ofthis episode.
Rebecca, hi.
Welcome to the podcast.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:29):
Well, this is so cool because I have not done
an in-person interview since ourfirst season.
And it's so cool to just talk tosomeone in person.
And actually, I was justthinking about this today.
I was like, we just met randomlyon the steps of a coffee shop in
Bali.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:43):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:43):
Okay.
And where are you from?
Like originally
Rebecca MacLeod (02:45):
I'm from Halifax,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:46):
Another Canadian in our midst, two
Canadian girlies in Bali.
I love that.
For us.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:50):
Yeah.
There's a feeling when I meet aCanadian, there's just like a
soft feeling of home.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:56):
Um, so I wanted to have you on, because I
remember you came up to me a fewweeks ago and you were like, oh,
I hear you do work with mathtrauma.
And you said you read Vedicastrology charts, correct?
And that, you know how to seethat in a chart?
Rebecca MacLeod (03:11):
I do.
I mean, primarily I was lookingat my own experience with math
and using the tools that I haveto just look back and say, oh, I
have a better understanding ofwhat happened with me and math
over time, because it definitelychanged.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:27):
Was there a way that math was being taught
to you or school was happeningfor you that didn't align?
Like was there, were therespecific things you could be
like, yeah, these were thethings in class or the, the way
I was being treated as a studentthat didn't align with my way of
being?
Rebecca MacLeod (03:42):
For sure.
I would say there's adisconnection from what I was
being taught and how this makessense in a broader way.
Why am I learning this?
And what is it for?
Why do I need to know theseformulas?
And so actually what I did getinto was economics.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:01):
Really?
Rebecca MacLeod (04:01):
Yeah.
I, I majored in economicsactually.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:03):
What?
Okay.
That's a big plot twist I wasnot expecting.
Rebecca MacLeod (04:06):
Yeah.
And because the logic of itappealed to me at that time.
This makes sense.
Now, I, I did all of that and myopinion changed dramatically of
it.
But, uh, but what I needed was abroader context for what I was
learning.
And so I came back to math quiterecently, by studying sacred
(04:28):
geometry.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:29):
Oh my God.
Tell us more.
Rebecca MacLeod (04:31):
So I like to embroider things.
Okay.
And so I, one day was in Uluwatuand I embroidered a simple
pattern of four circles, andit's uh, sacred geometry
pattern, a very basic one.
And I didn't know why I wasdoing it.
I just did it.
I was like, oh, that'sinteresting.
And then I went to a bookshopand there was a book and it had
(04:52):
the Flower of Life on it.
And I said, oh, perhaps that'sfor me.
And I flipped it open to a pageand the first word that I saw
was the word"coptic".
Okay.
It doesn't matter what the wordis about, but the word coptic
had been repeating in my headfor about three months prior.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:10):
And you didn't even had never heard that word?
Rebecca MacLeod (05:12):
No, I had no association with it at all.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:13):
Wow.
Rebecca MacLeod (05:14):
And I was curious because, uh, when things
come in this way, there's, itusually is like a little wink, a
flag, something to pay attentionto.
And so I knew when I saw thisword like that is the
association, that was theintuitive association.
And I knew the book was for me.
And so the Flower of Life, uh,is probably the first book to
(05:38):
bring sacred geometry tohumanity again.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:43):
Okay.
So I wanna hear like, what isSacred Geometry?
Rebecca MacLeod (05:46):
So, sacred geometry is what underlies our
experience of reality.
The Flower of Life pattern issaid to hold every possibility
of experience within it.
And you can derive any geometryfrom the flower of life.
And so this was kind of, for me,a reentry into the world of
(06:06):
mathematics because I said, oh,this is something that makes
sense to me.
I wanna know how math relates toexperience.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:14):
Who, I'm getting like, such goosebumps.
There's so much exploding in mymind.
Keep going.
Sorry to interrupt.
Go, go, go.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:21):
I think that's, that's it really.
Well, I mean,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:24):
I love it.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:24):
Something about, there's, so relating to
geometry in an intuitive way,you can learn so much by drawing
sacred geometry figures, and youdon't need anything to do it.
You make a straight line and ifyou can make a circle, you're
away to the races.
You don't need anything else.
It's obvious what to do.
And in the doing of it, I findmy energy becomes very elevated.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:47):
Right.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:48):
It's alm, it's, it's meditating, but it's tuning
into a greater field becausethis is what creates our
experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
I'm having a moment of going back to your
younger self being like I needto learn the context.
Like why am I learning thisstuff?
I need to learn the context.
And actually, we talk about thisa lot in math education of being
like, students need to know whythey're doing something and how
to apply things to real life.
But what I'm kind of hearingnow, and I don't wanna project,
so let me know if this is whatI'm hearing, is it wasn't
(07:17):
necessarily that you need toneeded to know, like, I need to
use this formula when Icalculate like the distance
between blah, blah, blah.
You more wanted like a purposeof the math, like a deeper
meaning.
Like it didn't have to be like,I can apply this formula to
something.
It sounds like you're like, Iwanted this connected to my
human experience, Yeah.
(07:39):
which is so fucking mind blowingbecause it's like, I do think we
miss the boat a bit when we'relike, all we need to do is
create a math problem like withwatermelons or like, you know,
we're calculating like how manyTV shows this kid watches that's
relevant.
Whereas I've always believedthat kids, even though they're
kids, or.
they you know, when, when welook at the blue zones and what
gives people meaning, often itis purpose, it is meaning, it is
(08:02):
like a deeper, more intangiblething, like a connection to our
real lived human experience onthe planet.
And that doesn't always come inthe material, you know,
sometimes it does come in thespiritual realm.
So you kind of like, I, I kindof even wanna know a little more
when you're kind of talkingabout sacred geometry and how
that spoke to you so much.
How, because I also think theword spirituality gets a bit of
(08:23):
a bad rep.
You know, we're kind of like,oh, spirituality woo woo.
But what I'm hearing from you isspirituality is connected to my
lived experience as a human, andits deeper meaning.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:33):
Absolutely.
And for me, it's, it's simply anexploration.
Spirituality is me connecting toparts of me that are unseen.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:46):
Mm.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:46):
But incredibly potent.
What said the word Coptic to meand led me to that book?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:51):
Right.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:52):
That's an interesting question.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:53):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I love that, like thatcuriosity that wonder that awe,
which is so ironically whatwe're always wanting our
students to feel in math class,but then we're delivering the
content to them in a way thatshuts that down.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:09):
Yeah.
It's, it's true.
It's, when you have a room fullof 12 students though, it'll be
interesting to see what lightsone child up versus another.
And somebody may be reallyinterested in sacred geometry,
but someone else might reallywanna know how this relates to
how many watermelons to buy.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:28):
Totally.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:28):
What's happening in the stock market
and what have you.
So, I think though, not havingmath as an abstraction is
important.
That's how it felt to me.
It felt disconnected fromeverything when I was presented
with it.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And okay, so, so thinking aboutit in that way, it's so, also so
funny that you set a room of 12students because now teachers
have literally 35 to 40 studentsin a classroom.
It's so wild.
Yeah.
I was like 12 students.
That sounds like a dream.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:56):
Totally.
totally.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:58):
But it, I think that's really important is
that idea of studentcenteredness of being like,
what?
We're not all the same.
The things that give us purposeand meaning are actually very
different.
You know?
Again, it doesn't always have tobe connected to this very deep
spiritual thing, but this ideaof what gives us meaning and
purpose and how, because you're,the way you're talking about it
math already is that we don'thave to force it to be that it
(10:19):
is a deeper thing.
It does connect to everythingthat's important to us and to
our experience, but we need tofind a way to present it that
way to the people we'reteaching.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to find a way forstudents to, to feel that.
And I wonder, like a lot ofthis, again, ties into what I'm
hearing from you is intuition,you know, when you saw that
word, Coptic, you intuitivelypicked up that book.
(10:40):
You know, you started drawingthose circles.
Someone wasn't like, HeyRebecca, here's an assignment.
Draw these circles.
You were just exploring andplaying.
And I wonder how could weempower teachers to tap into
their intuition when they'reteaching something?
And then the second part I'mjust gonna ask you both at once
is like, is there a tool orsomething they could teach their
(11:00):
students in terms of how to tapinto their intuition when
they're learning math?
Like how does intuition come toplay in the classroom?
Rebecca MacLeod (11:07):
I think intuition serves on a moment to
moment basis.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:10):
Love.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (11:12):
And in it purest sense, it's a yes or a
no.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:16):
Woo.
Rebecca MacLeod (11:18):
And it, it comes not from evaluating which
math that we're evaluating, butit's, it's, it's a, coming from
another place.
I focus, I, I literally will askmy heart if I'm curious about
which path to take.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:35):
So let's, can we like play out a scenario like
you're solving a math problem.
Let's say like you're given amath problem and you, for most
students, what happens is theysee the math problem and they
don't know how to do it.
They can't remember the formula.
They're like, I don't rememberlearning this.
And because so many students dohave a deep math trauma and
have, are coming from a fearspace.
(11:56):
Like, that's the end of it.
Right?
So how could we guide a studentwith math anxiety, using
intuition through justapproaching that problem with,
intuitive curiosity.
So like, I'm giving you a mathproblem and you have no idea how
to solve it.
What would you do?
Rebecca MacLeod (12:14):
I think that I would encourage students to
remember that it, it is not onlylogic that solves problems.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
Oh my God, I love it.
Rebecca MacLeod (12:25):
It is not the data processing that you have
done so far in life that you canexclusively rely on, first of
all.
There is a higher knowing thatyou have access to.
There's a part of yourself thatalready knows the answer.
Now, going into a, a publicschool in Canada and saying this
kind of thing would be aninteresting experience, but why
(12:46):
not?
Are we
Vanessa Vakharia (12:47):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (12:48):
Do we want to change what we're doing or not?
Yeah.
So perhaps it could be an, anexploration.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:53):
And and I think too, like, I, I don't
think you're like saying, andcorrect me if I'm wrong, you're
not like, I could give a gradefour kid a calculus problem, and
they they know how to solve theproblem and they know the
answer.
But like, are you more kind ofsaying like, there's a higher
knowing there's a part ofthemselves that might very,
really have a gut instinct of atleast the next question to ask?
Rebecca MacLeod (13:14):
Absolutely.
And how do you listen to it?
Well, then you need to be quiet.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:20):
Hmm.
Rebecca MacLeod (13:21):
Close your eyes.
Perhaps give the child a or, youknow, the, the teenager, a
breathing exercise.
Something simple, something thatcalms.
What is, what is going to becalming?
And ask them to listen.
Just listen.
And they may get a, a nudge ofsome kind, however, it'll work
(13:42):
for them.
It could be a word, it could beremembrance, it could be an
image.
And then they can follow thatand say, ah, yeah, wait.
Ah, okay.
And then proceed in this way.
What would happen with me inhigh school is that I would be
so nervous.
It was performative.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca MacLeod (14:00):
Who am I if I get it wrong?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:01):
Right, right.
Rebecca MacLeod (14:02):
And that gets in the way of remembering
anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:05):
A hundred percent.
You know, so many studentsactually do know the answer.
They do know, you know, I usedto be like this when I, my math
anxiety would pop up in tests,where I'd intuitively start
doing something and then mybrain would kind of get in the
way and be like,"no, no, no,erase that".
Like, wait, like, maybe itwould, you know, it would go
into this really cerebral place.
And it would turn out that myintuitive answer was the right
(14:27):
one.
You know?
But I had ignored it to be like,I should be doing this and, and
this kind of thing.
So how, what's also interesting,I think, and I've been working a
lot on, with my therapist, islike, how do we know the
difference?
Like, we have these students whoare coming from a fear space,
they are anxious around math.
These questions are popping up.
Who am I if I get it wrong?
And that shuts them down.
(14:48):
How do we discern thedifference?
This is a big question right?
but how do we, what's a tip todiscern the difference between
fear and intuition?
So a student who's, for example,like my intuition is telling me
not to try this because likesomething horrible is gonna
happen.
Uh, versus being able to belike, that's just fear.
That's not like a deep innerknowing.
That's like a, or I don't knowif I'm wording that correctly,
(15:11):
but you know what I mean, likehow, how could, how do we do
that?
Rebecca MacLeod (15:13):
Mm-hmm.
So this is something I've beenexploring, I, would, I would say
for 10 years.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:22):
That shows like it takes work, right?
'cause we're not conditionedthat way.
Rebecca MacLeod (15:25):
Mm-hmm.
It is what, what is, am I in apicture right now?
A picture being, uh, a moment intime where I had a negative
experience and I'm trying toprotect myself again from that
experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:39):
Oh my God, I love that.
Rebecca MacLeod (15:41):
Or am I connected to something else?
And normally if you are in aspace of fear as you're
speaking, oh my God, I shouldn'tdo this, I shouldn't do this, I
shouldn't do this.
That's not to your intuitionspeaking.
That is you doing your best toprotect yourself from having, a
(16:02):
negative experience again.
And intuition often is direct,clear, soft, and it's very often
the first thing comes in yourmind Before you evaluate it.
It's the drop in, it's the thingyou receive.
And then you know that part ofus that says, well, yes, no,
maybe pros and cons andhistorical experiences.
(16:24):
That's not intuition, that'smechanical.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:29):
I really love this because I think, one of the
things that kind of comes up.
In the a a broader culturalsense is this idea that certain
of us have math ability andcertain don't.
But again, we are all born with,you know, there, there really is
no scientific studies to, toback that up.
Like there's no like brain scansbeing like, some people have
these, brain, you know,whatever.
And the idea that I really thinkintuition could be a tool into
(16:51):
like actually allowing everyoneto tap into their natural
curiosity, their natural senseof like question asking and
creative thinking and, and youknow, our recognizing that so
much of what we do in life istied to this beautiful math is
just not necessarily evaluatedin the classroom, which to me is
just proof and evidence that wehave mathematical intuition.
(17:13):
And I think maybe'cause I lovethe idea of being like, here's a
problem, you know, you put thisin front of a student, here's a
problem.
You have no idea to solve.
First instinct.
What would you do?
Like, just like, you know what Imean?
Don't even think about it toomuch.
What would you do?
Now the likelihood is a lot oftimes that will happen and it
will be the quote unquote wrongthing to do, let's say.
(17:34):
Right?
Like some, you know, sometimesit won't lead to the, the
intended outcome that theteacher has or the answer.
And I actually think that's areally good exercise to be like,
even if it doesn't lead youthere, that that's okay and
that's part of the process.
But how would you frame that fora student who's, you know, we're
constantly told in math classthat the goal is to get a right
(17:56):
answer.
Yeah.
What's a good like, reframe of,of this?
Because I really like your, thisidea.
Rebecca MacLeod (18:02):
The goal is to have an experience.
How about that?
It's, it's to be in theexperience of the unknown.
So is math really the outcomehere or is it learning to trust
yourself when you don't knowwhat to do?
Getting a right answer, sure,that's a nice outcome.
But if that is immediately theconcern, then it's restrictive.
(18:26):
You've put a boundary around thesituation, so if you can make
the focus as well on it's okayto not know and to listen and to
breathe and to ask for help,then there's a different energy
(18:47):
around it.
And what do I learn when I getit wrong?
Does it matter?
Maybe I've learned something.
Yeah.
Maybe I've had the experience ofseeing myself be in fear and
then get it wrong and then I'mokay on the other side of it.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:03):
Yes.
Oh, I love the way you're,you're putting this because I
do, you know, that's such a bigpart of my work through math
therapy is this idea of evenlike, you know, practicing doing
things that you're probably notgonna get the intended outcome,
like getting into that space.
And I really love the tie inthat you're making between
intuition, it's that, you know,if you have an intuitive gut
(19:24):
instinct, which is so hard for,for us to listen to, just
listening to it more, and I'mjust even imagining like,
because I'm imagining someonebeing like, okay, I keep
listening to my gut, but it'salways like, you know, it's
never leading me to the answer.
But that there, there islearning in that, you know, and
that learning of being able totune into your gut, being able
to tune into your intuition isalways going to get you closer
(19:48):
to action.
And action is better than thestagnant place of fear and
freeze.
Right?
Like, am I onto something?
Rebecca MacLeod (19:55):
I think you definitely are, because what
creates the stagnation is thefear of failure.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:03):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (20:03):
But why does it matter?
Like, okay, well I've gotta geta B or an A to get into college.
Well, that matters.
Okay.
But are we, are we in a learningprocess right now?
The, the future orientedconcerns, that's what creates
the anxiety.
And that's what will constrictthe moment.
(20:27):
And so the learning processbeing more spacious, I think is
crucial.
So to move into a situation withcuriosity, I think is
everything.
I, I like to paint and make art,and sometimes I get caught up in
(20:49):
thinking, well, what do peoplewant?
What will sell, what will theybe interested in?
And immediately my creativityhas walls around it.
That's a future concern.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:01):
Could not be more relatable to me as a
musician.
Keep going.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:05):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:05):
I need, I need this talk.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:06):
Yeah.
And so do you make somethingnovel and of you, of your
essence?
in that moment?
Or are you making somethingthat's probably going to be
similar to what's already beenmade because that feels safe?
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
Oh my God, this could not be more
applicable to math.
Like, could not be more.
Because again, when we're inschool, we're not doing it for
ourselves.
Often we're doing it for theteacher in the room or for the
adult or for the grade.
And we're trying to be like, howare other, we say a lot in math,
that up till now most studentsare taught how to mimic, like
you're taught how to mimic nothow to think.
(21:40):
Like, do it this way.
It's called like"I do, you do"from the teacher.
Um, and you're right.
Like there's, there areimmediately walls around that.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:49):
For sure.
And it stifles the, thecreativity of problem solving.
I mimicked my way throughcollege.
I got an economics degree.
And, you know, I would go tostats class and be like, what
the hell is this?
And memorize the formulas, do itin a test and be like, this is
bullshit.
This isn't anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:05):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (22:06):
You can fudge, you can fudge any statistics.
Yeah.
But some, some students may nottake the questioning that far.
They may just mimic their waythrough and then at some point
wonder, well, where, where am I?
Where am I in any of this?
So if, if at an earlier point itcan be beyond the rote
memorization of something, thenI think you're going to unlock
(22:28):
more in a student.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:31):
Oh, this is beautiful.
Did you, at any point, you know,when you were, uh, going through
your own school experience, didyou feel like you were incapable
of doing math?
Like did you For sure.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (22:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I did.
I would look at something and Iwould feel like a, a, crunch in
my mind or a confusion or areaching for what's the right
thing, what did I do last time?
And I don't quite remember it.
And I would be so nervous that Iwould be cut off from even my,
my, my access to what we learnedin class.
(23:03):
And I would be frustrated,therefore I wouldn't study, and
therefore I would keep showingup in a a, a way that was not,
not fulfilling at all.
It was, it was totally fearbased.
And so had my learning been in adifferent environment, things
could have been very different.
Not only, you know, math as aconcept, what is this, but am I
(23:25):
approaching it from fear or am Iapproaching it with curiosity?
Vanessa Vakharia (23:30):
Okay, a couple more.
We're, we're reaching, I mean, Icould talk to you for a thousand
hours.
This is so fascinating.
Okay.
There's another big thing Iwanna talk about and I know this
is gonna seem kind of in theweeds for some of our listeners,
but everyone listening to thisknows how much I love astrology.
And one of the things that drewme to you is that you study
Vedic astrology.
And you mentioned that, youreally believe that astrology
(23:52):
played a role in your own mathexperience and in, in your, in
the way you were relating tomath when you were long younger.
Can you just tell us a littlebit about that?
Rebecca MacLeod (24:03):
So,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
and tell us what vedic astrology is first, a
little brief snippet.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:07):
Sure.
Vedic astrology is a system ofastrology.
It came from India and it canhelp us to understand ourselves
in any given moment.
It's.
It's like understanding what'shappening with the weather, but
your internal weather.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:22):
I love that.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:24):
And there's something called the hermetic
principle:"as above, so below"
Vanessa Vakharia (24:31):
I have that tattooed to my arm.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
TANC, stop.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Love, love.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:36):
So I think that's the, the basis of
astrology.
You're like, what the hell doesJupiter have to do with
anything?
It's over there.
Mm.
Well, maybe Jupiter is alsoinside.
In, in the realm of science,there's increasingly an
understanding that life iscoming from us.
It's not happening out here,it's coming from us.
(24:57):
So astrology is a way to getinside.
Okay.
And say what's happening outsideis also what's happening inside.
I'm related to the cosmos.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:06):
I love that.
And so tell me a bit about,looking back now, you know,
we've heard about your journeythrough math and what was
happening in school.
How you've kind of been able toreflect on that from that
perspective?
Rebecca MacLeod (25:19):
Right.
So in Vedic astrology, you canlook at different parts of your
life and see dominant energiestaking place at different times
in your life.
And you can look at your chartto see this.
And as I was learning Vedicastrology, I looked back and I
(25:39):
saw these different chapters ofmy life and how different
strengths or challenges emergedover time.
And so during a certain phase, Iwas very, very strong in math.
And then it changed to anotherphase, which was more
challenging my life.
And I could see how math becameutterly difficult for me,
(26:01):
confusing.
essentially the self-confidencechanged.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:06):
Like literally your relationship with it.
Rebecca MacLeod (26:08):
It did.
I, I, I was no longer confidentin math.
And I didn't understand why Iwas learning it.
I questioned it and I struggledto connect with it.
And I could see through lookingat my chart why that was.
Which is an interesting thing todo.
(26:28):
That's an interesting part ofastrology is you under get to
understand this system.
It's actually called a Vedicmathematics.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
That's right.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rebecca MacLeod (26:37):
So it's, it's a system of probabilities,
essentially.
Based on an understanding ofdifferent energies, what is more
likely to occur during a, aperiod of time or not.
Now, we have free will withinthat, but, we can say that there
are certain impressions thathappen on the mind at a certain
period of time, and that willimpact how you live out your
life.
(26:57):
And so I, I saw my math journeyin, in what I have learned so
far.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:01):
Wow.
And you, and not to get into thenitty gritty, even though, you
know, I want to, um, you, thisparticular thing just had to do
with the moon phase you were inand the Mars phase you were in.
Rebecca MacLeod (27:11):
That's right.
So the moon in my chart is veryhappy.
It's in a good position.
It likes where it is.
It's exalted.
The moon is the mind also, it's,it represents the mind.
Okay.
And so I was excelling inschool.
Very, very good at math.
Very good at everything.
Good.
You know?
Yeah.
Good.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
She's using air quotes, everyone.
Rebecca MacLeod (27:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like from, from this, this waythat we like to judge children.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, and then the, thechapter, it was a new chapter
and this one was ruled by, byMars, which in my chart Mars is
challenged.
It's not in a place that isparticularly comfortable.
In my particular chart, Mars isalso associated with the mind.
(27:52):
And so, things became less clearto me.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:58):
You know, it's, it's so interesting'cause
I know we're talking aboutastrology and we love it, and,
and we all have different beliefsystems and different tools of
reflection or religions orspiritual manifestations.
Like whatever.
It's, you know, we have what thethings that help us feel
anchored in the world.
But what I, what I honestlythink is so interesting is like,
you're literally just talkingabout phases of your life, you
(28:18):
know, and you're using astrologyto understand them.
For, but for every, for all ofus, we've gotta recognize that
the students that we areteaching are all in different
phases of their lives.
Whether it's astrologically orlike more rooted in the material
world, or like hormonally ormentally or emotionally.
Like, they're all in thesedifferent phases.
And when I'm really hearing toois that like, we've gotta honor
(28:40):
that, you know, we have to honorthat and.
I wonder if there is a piece,because it's so hard for a
teacher with, you know, forhowever many students in a room
to tap into what every singlestudent is going through and
what they need.
You know, like how your teachercould have been like Rebecca's
in Mars phase.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, but I'm actually wonderingas kind of a final question.
(29:01):
We're talking so much aboutstudent intuition.
Is there a way teachers might beable to use their intuition to
tap into what a student needs?
You know, so often we'refrustrated because a student, we
can tell they're in anxiety.
We, we can tell they're notfeeling good.
They have an unhealthyrelationship with math, and we
don't know how to, you know,we've used all our tools and we
(29:22):
don't know how to navigate that.
Would you have any like tip forteachers of how to, how to
quickly, or not quickly, how toeven begin to tap into a gut
feeling of what a student mightneed?
Rebecca MacLeod (29:33):
Well, we're talking about pressure and
performance, both for theteacher and the student.
Yeah.
I gotta get this done.
Shit, I gotta learn this versus,versus peace.
And so can a teacher with 30 to40 students in the class, I know
there's a lot going on.
Can they show up in a way thatis loving in a moment?
(29:57):
And create a space that's cominga little more from, from the
heart.
And literally just, just picturethe heart or take a few moments
to do that before starting.
Is it possible to take a fewmoments to breathe with the
students,
Vanessa Vakharia (30:14):
With the class, yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (30:15):
And, and say, this is, this is an exploration
we're going on together.
This isn't who you are.
Yes.
Your test score is not who youare.
This is a way for you to get toknow yourself and to get to know
the world.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:27):
Clapping over here, everyone.
Yes.
I love that.
And I also can't help but think,you know, so many, I love how
you said pressure to perform forthe teacher as well.
And I, I know that so, so manyincredible teachers are just,
they just wanna be doing theirbest.
They want students to feel good.
And I actually really think thatwhat you're saying, coming at it
from a place of love forthemselves as well.
(30:49):
You know, like giving themselvesthat self-compassion to say,
say, I'm just getting up here,I'm gonna do my best.
I'm gonna tap into my heartcenter and teach from that
place.
will probably be really healingand peaceful for them as well.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:01):
For sure.
And I think remembering that noteverything is up to them and not
everything is meant to goperfectly for every individual.
There's lots to be learnedthrough failure.
that may be what someone ischoosing to experience at that
time and there's a greater,broader reason for it that has
an impact later in life.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:21):
I believe that.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:22):
And so it's, it's not all up to you as a
teacher at all.
But, to, to create anenvironment where people can
have the experience that they'remeant to have
Vanessa Vakharia (31:32):
In like a loving way.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:33):
Exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:34):
Oh my God, I I love that.
Yeah.
I think that's so important.
My mantra for Bali has been,"asI let go of the need to control
my life, abundance flows easilyand effortlessly to me and those
around me".
And it's, it's funny, I've evenstarted realizing how much I'm
trying to control things thatlike I can't, you know, and that
I shouldn't.
And, and I really love that.
'cause I think teachers really,they're, they're so, they want
(31:56):
to give so much and, to reallyrecognize we can't control
everything.
You know, we can give andreceive.
But that's, that's it.
Okay.
So before we wrap up, this hasbeen just an incredible
interview.
So different from the ones I'vehad, but a conversation I really
always wanted to have.
And you're just so wise andcoming from a place that I think
is really useful.
So many of us don't get to hearthat perspective.
(32:18):
It was really healing for me,even to just kind of feel like
we do have an inner knowing andcuriosity and wonder are the
goal for students, but also forteachers and for us as humans.
So there are two questions Ialways ask all my guests, so I'm
gonna fire them at you.
Ready?
All right.
Question number one.
If there was one thing you couldchange about the way math is
(32:38):
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Rebecca MacLeod (32:40):
Love.
That's, that's it.
To, to make it not a space of,of performance, but a space of
love, which is fundamentallygoing to lead to a better
outcome.
Can we be in wonder andsweetness with this?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:59):
Sweetness.
I love this.
I love you.
Okay, amazing.
And then my final question is,if someone was chatting with you
and they were like, yeah, I geteverything you're saying about
intuition and we know, but I'mjust not a math person, what
would you say?
Rebecca MacLeod (33:16):
I would be curious to know what a math
person means to them.
What does it mean to be a mathperson?
To be really good at memorizingformulas, to be good at acing
tests, to be good at adding upyour, your grocery bill.
Like what does, what does thatmean?
Does the people think you'regood at math?
Because it's, it's what is thisgoal in, in mind that would be
(33:40):
interesting and to say there maybe some way that you can
experience math that feelsreally cool and fun to you.
And maybe you can find out whatthat is.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:50):
Oh, I love it.
So, such a you answer to, torespond to that question with a
question about the person.
Right.
Like, I think it's great andsometimes that asking instead of
telling.
Is what brings out of thatperson, what their deep mouth
trauma is and how it can behealed.
Rebecca MacLeod (34:04):
What do they believe about themselves?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:05):
What they, yeah.
Oh my God, this has beenamazing, amazing.
Our first interview ever inBali, like, honestly, you're
such a treat.
Thank you for taking the time.
Is there, do you want people tofind you anywhere?
Like do you have Instagram?
Do you like, should they, do youhave social media?
Rebecca MacLeod (34:22):
I do, um, where I post highly irregularly, so I
dunno how interesting it wouldbe for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:28):
Okay, so, no problem.
Yeah.
We'll just leave you as thismysterious, intuitive woman on
the podcast.
Perfect.
Find, find Rebecca in thecosmos.
Everyone, Yeah.
thank you so much for beinghere.
Rebecca MacLeod (34:39):
Thanks for having me.
And you're doing incrediblework.
Truly.
It's, it's a gift to make aspace where people can talk
about this and so that peoplecan have a more honest
experience of math andthemselves.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Should we hug?
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:59):
Oh God, We've never, all thank you so much.
Oh my God.
Oh, I'm not saying bye.
No need.
She's right here.
I mean, can we just take asecond to breathe that all in?
If this episode sparkedsomething for you, I mean, maybe
it reminded you that yourintuition matters, or maybe it
(35:21):
made you think about your ownmath journey in a new way.
Share it.
I guarantee that someone, youknow needs.
To hear this message today asmuch as you did, so send it to a
friend, post it to your story,or just DM me and let me know
what resonated.
I'm on Instagram at the Mathguru, and I'm always up for a
chat about sacred geometry,student joy, or what it means to
be a math person.
(35:41):
And hey, if you're loving thepod, a quick five star review
helps me reach more people andkeep these convos going.
Now for next week, I havesomething truly special for you
guys.
When I was in Bali, I was doingyoga like every day, searching
for meaning, blah, blah, blah,as one does.
And one day my yoga teacherpulled me aside and said, Hey, I
know you do this math therapystuff.
(36:03):
My girlfriend Charizma isterrified of math.
Like, you know, she cries at thesight of numbers kind of thing.
Can you help her?
Well, for the next couple ofweeks, charisma and I went
through some intense maththerapy and she was brave enough
to sit down with me on the micto share her experience.
I know I exaggerate a lot, butI'm actually serious that my
(36:23):
time getting to know Charizmawas one of the most absolute
highlights of my work in matheducation, and I learned as much
from her as she did from me.
So I can't wait to share herstory with you next week.
Now, one more thing before yougo.
As I said at the start of thisepisode, we have big things in
store.
Are you ready?
I'm actually so excited.
As of this fall, we willofficially be a weekly podcast.
(36:46):
That means new episodes everyweek, guys.
So I wanna hear from you.
If there's anyone you want me tointerview, any episode ideas you
have, any topics you want me toexplore, dm me on Instagram,
email me atvanessa@themathguru.ca.
I wanna hear from you becausethis podcast is for you guys.
Math Therapy is produced andedited by David Kochberg, and
(37:07):
that lovely music you're hearingis by my band, Goodnight
Sunrise, See you guys next weekand until then, go be curious,
go be kind, and go be your bestmath therapist self, for a
friend, student, colleague, oreven just for you because you
deserve it.
The goal is to have an experience.
To be in the experience of theunknown.
Is math really the outcome hereor is it learning to trust
yourself when you don't knowwhat to do?
It's okay to listen and tobreathe and to ask for help, And
what do I learn when I get itwrong?
This isn't who you are.
(00:24):
Your test score is not who youare.
This is a way for you to get toknow yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:29):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:52):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay.
Let me ask you something.
What if math didn't have to bejust about getting the right
answer?
What if it could actually helpyou connect to something bigger,
like your intuition or yourcreativity, your true essence,
or even your soul?
Well, today I am talking toRebecca McLeod, an artist,
(01:13):
intuition expert, and generallymagical human being who has one
of the coolest perspectives I'veever heard about how we can
experience and engage with math.
I met her while I was inIndonesia this winter, and I
just had to have her on the pod,the first of two bonus episodes
we're sharing with you thismonth.
Today you'll hear us talk abouthow intuition belongs just as
much as logic in the mathclassroom, what sacred geometry
(01:36):
is, and how it can help usconnect with math on a spiritual
level, and what happens when westop pressuring students and
start inviting curiosity.
We also get into how fear showsup in learning and how to tell
the difference between fear andintuition, which is actually so
important because most of ushave been taught to ignore both.
If you've ever felt like mathjust wasn't for you, or you've
(01:57):
had like this gut feeling,there's more to it than
memorizing formulas, thisepisode is gonna blow your mind.
Also, if you're a longtimelistener, you're probably
thinking"what is even going onwith this podcast?
Episodes are dropping in arandom fashion, which I cannot
comprehend." And you're right,but I have a surprise for you
guys.
We've been working behind thescenes to turn this podcast into
(02:17):
something much bigger and moreconsistent.
I'll tell you more at the end ofthis episode.
Rebecca, hi.
Welcome to the podcast.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:29):
Well, this is so cool because I have not done
an in-person interview since ourfirst season.
And it's so cool to just talk tosomeone in person.
And actually, I was justthinking about this today.
I was like, we just met randomlyon the steps of a coffee shop in
Bali.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:43):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:43):
Okay.
And where are you from?
Like originally
Rebecca MacLeod (02:45):
I'm from Halifax,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:46):
Another Canadian in our midst, two
Canadian girlies in Bali.
I love that.
For us.
Rebecca MacLeod (02:50):
Yeah.
There's a feeling when I meet aCanadian, there's just like a
soft feeling of home.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:56):
Um, so I wanted to have you on, because I
remember you came up to me a fewweeks ago and you were like, oh,
I hear you do work with mathtrauma.
And you said you read Vedicastrology charts, correct?
And that, you know how to seethat in a chart?
Rebecca MacLeod (03:11):
I do.
I mean, primarily I was lookingat my own experience with math
and using the tools that I haveto just look back and say, oh, I
have a better understanding ofwhat happened with me and math
over time, because it definitelychanged.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:27):
Was there a way that math was being taught
to you or school was happeningfor you that didn't align?
Like was there, were therespecific things you could be
like, yeah, these were thethings in class or the, the way
I was being treated as a studentthat didn't align with my way of
being?
Rebecca MacLeod (03:42):
For sure.
I would say there's adisconnection from what I was
being taught and how this makessense in a broader way.
Why am I learning this?
And what is it for?
Why do I need to know theseformulas?
And so actually what I did getinto was economics.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:01):
Really?
Rebecca MacLeod (04:01):
Yeah.
I, I majored in economicsactually.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:03):
What?
Okay.
That's a big plot twist I wasnot expecting.
Rebecca MacLeod (04:06):
Yeah.
And because the logic of itappealed to me at that time.
This makes sense.
Now, I, I did all of that and myopinion changed dramatically of
it.
But, uh, but what I needed was abroader context for what I was
learning.
And so I came back to math quiterecently, by studying sacred
(04:28):
geometry.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:29):
Oh my God.
Tell us more.
Rebecca MacLeod (04:31):
So I like to embroider things.
Okay.
And so I, one day was in Uluwatuand I embroidered a simple
pattern of four circles, andit's uh, sacred geometry
pattern, a very basic one.
And I didn't know why I wasdoing it.
I just did it.
I was like, oh, that'sinteresting.
And then I went to a bookshopand there was a book and it had
(04:52):
the Flower of Life on it.
And I said, oh, perhaps that'sfor me.
And I flipped it open to a pageand the first word that I saw
was the word"coptic".
Okay.
It doesn't matter what the wordis about, but the word coptic
had been repeating in my headfor about three months prior.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:10):
And you didn't even had never heard that word?
Rebecca MacLeod (05:12):
No, I had no association with it at all.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:13):
Wow.
Rebecca MacLeod (05:14):
And I was curious because, uh, when things
come in this way, there's, itusually is like a little wink, a
flag, something to pay attentionto.
And so I knew when I saw thisword like that is the
association, that was theintuitive association.
And I knew the book was for me.
And so the Flower of Life, uh,is probably the first book to
(05:38):
bring sacred geometry tohumanity again.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:43):
Okay.
So I wanna hear like, what isSacred Geometry?
Rebecca MacLeod (05:46):
So, sacred geometry is what underlies our
experience of reality.
The Flower of Life pattern issaid to hold every possibility
of experience within it.
And you can derive any geometryfrom the flower of life.
And so this was kind of, for me,a reentry into the world of
(06:06):
mathematics because I said, oh,this is something that makes
sense to me.
I wanna know how math relates toexperience.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:14):
Who, I'm getting like, such goosebumps.
There's so much exploding in mymind.
Keep going.
Sorry to interrupt.
Go, go, go.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:21):
I think that's, that's it really.
Well, I mean,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:24):
I love it.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:24):
Something about, there's, so relating to
geometry in an intuitive way,you can learn so much by drawing
sacred geometry figures, and youdon't need anything to do it.
You make a straight line and ifyou can make a circle, you're
away to the races.
You don't need anything else.
It's obvious what to do.
And in the doing of it, I findmy energy becomes very elevated.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:47):
Right.
Rebecca MacLeod (06:48):
It's alm, it's, it's meditating, but it's tuning
into a greater field becausethis is what creates our
experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
I'm having a moment of going back to your
younger self being like I needto learn the context.
Like why am I learning thisstuff?
I need to learn the context.
And actually, we talk about thisa lot in math education of being
like, students need to know whythey're doing something and how
to apply things to real life.
But what I'm kind of hearingnow, and I don't wanna project,
so let me know if this is whatI'm hearing, is it wasn't
(07:17):
necessarily that you need toneeded to know, like, I need to
use this formula when Icalculate like the distance
between blah, blah, blah.
You more wanted like a purposeof the math, like a deeper
meaning.
Like it didn't have to be like,I can apply this formula to
something.
It sounds like you're like, Iwanted this connected to my
human experience, Yeah.
(07:39):
which is so fucking mind blowingbecause it's like, I do think we
miss the boat a bit when we'relike, all we need to do is
create a math problem like withwatermelons or like, you know,
we're calculating like how manyTV shows this kid watches that's
relevant.
Whereas I've always believedthat kids, even though they're
kids, or.
they you know, when, when welook at the blue zones and what
gives people meaning, often itis purpose, it is meaning, it is
(08:02):
like a deeper, more intangiblething, like a connection to our
real lived human experience onthe planet.
And that doesn't always come inthe material, you know,
sometimes it does come in thespiritual realm.
So you kind of like, I, I kindof even wanna know a little more
when you're kind of talkingabout sacred geometry and how
that spoke to you so much.
How, because I also think theword spirituality gets a bit of
(08:23):
a bad rep.
You know, we're kind of like,oh, spirituality woo woo.
But what I'm hearing from you isspirituality is connected to my
lived experience as a human, andits deeper meaning.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:33):
Absolutely.
And for me, it's, it's simply anexploration.
Spirituality is me connecting toparts of me that are unseen.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:46):
Mm.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:46):
But incredibly potent.
What said the word Coptic to meand led me to that book?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:51):
Right.
Rebecca MacLeod (08:52):
That's an interesting question.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:53):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I love that, like thatcuriosity that wonder that awe,
which is so ironically whatwe're always wanting our
students to feel in math class,but then we're delivering the
content to them in a way thatshuts that down.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:09):
Yeah.
It's, it's true.
It's, when you have a room fullof 12 students though, it'll be
interesting to see what lightsone child up versus another.
And somebody may be reallyinterested in sacred geometry,
but someone else might reallywanna know how this relates to
how many watermelons to buy.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:28):
Totally.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:28):
What's happening in the stock market
and what have you.
So, I think though, not havingmath as an abstraction is
important.
That's how it felt to me.
It felt disconnected fromeverything when I was presented
with it.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And okay, so, so thinking aboutit in that way, it's so, also so
funny that you set a room of 12students because now teachers
have literally 35 to 40 studentsin a classroom.
It's so wild.
Yeah.
I was like 12 students.
That sounds like a dream.
Rebecca MacLeod (09:56):
Totally.
totally.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:58):
But it, I think that's really important is
that idea of studentcenteredness of being like,
what?
We're not all the same.
The things that give us purposeand meaning are actually very
different.
You know?
Again, it doesn't always have tobe connected to this very deep
spiritual thing, but this ideaof what gives us meaning and
purpose and how, because you're,the way you're talking about it
math already is that we don'thave to force it to be that it
(10:19):
is a deeper thing.
It does connect to everythingthat's important to us and to
our experience, but we need tofind a way to present it that
way to the people we'reteaching.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to find a way forstudents to, to feel that.
And I wonder, like a lot ofthis, again, ties into what I'm
hearing from you is intuition,you know, when you saw that
word, Coptic, you intuitivelypicked up that book.
(10:40):
You know, you started drawingthose circles.
Someone wasn't like, HeyRebecca, here's an assignment.
Draw these circles.
You were just exploring andplaying.
And I wonder how could weempower teachers to tap into
their intuition when they'reteaching something?
And then the second part I'mjust gonna ask you both at once
is like, is there a tool orsomething they could teach their
(11:00):
students in terms of how to tapinto their intuition when
they're learning math?
Like how does intuition come toplay in the classroom?
Rebecca MacLeod (11:07):
I think intuition serves on a moment to
moment basis.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:10):
Love.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (11:12):
And in it purest sense, it's a yes or a
no.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:16):
Woo.
Rebecca MacLeod (11:18):
And it, it comes not from evaluating which
math that we're evaluating, butit's, it's, it's a, coming from
another place.
I focus, I, I literally will askmy heart if I'm curious about
which path to take.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:35):
So let's, can we like play out a scenario like
you're solving a math problem.
Let's say like you're given amath problem and you, for most
students, what happens is theysee the math problem and they
don't know how to do it.
They can't remember the formula.
They're like, I don't rememberlearning this.
And because so many students dohave a deep math trauma and
have, are coming from a fearspace.
(11:56):
Like, that's the end of it.
Right?
So how could we guide a studentwith math anxiety, using
intuition through justapproaching that problem with,
intuitive curiosity.
So like, I'm giving you a mathproblem and you have no idea how
to solve it.
What would you do?
Rebecca MacLeod (12:14):
I think that I would encourage students to
remember that it, it is not onlylogic that solves problems.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
Oh my God, I love it.
Rebecca MacLeod (12:25):
It is not the data processing that you have
done so far in life that you canexclusively rely on, first of
all.
There is a higher knowing thatyou have access to.
There's a part of yourself thatalready knows the answer.
Now, going into a, a publicschool in Canada and saying this
kind of thing would be aninteresting experience, but why
(12:46):
not?
Are we
Vanessa Vakharia (12:47):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (12:48):
Do we want to change what we're doing or not?
Yeah.
So perhaps it could be an, anexploration.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:53):
And and I think too, like, I, I don't
think you're like saying, andcorrect me if I'm wrong, you're
not like, I could give a gradefour kid a calculus problem, and
they they know how to solve theproblem and they know the
answer.
But like, are you more kind ofsaying like, there's a higher
knowing there's a part ofthemselves that might very,
really have a gut instinct of atleast the next question to ask?
Rebecca MacLeod (13:14):
Absolutely.
And how do you listen to it?
Well, then you need to be quiet.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:20):
Hmm.
Rebecca MacLeod (13:21):
Close your eyes.
Perhaps give the child a or, youknow, the, the teenager, a
breathing exercise.
Something simple, something thatcalms.
What is, what is going to becalming?
And ask them to listen.
Just listen.
And they may get a, a nudge ofsome kind, however, it'll work
(13:42):
for them.
It could be a word, it could beremembrance, it could be an
image.
And then they can follow thatand say, ah, yeah, wait.
Ah, okay.
And then proceed in this way.
What would happen with me inhigh school is that I would be
so nervous.
It was performative.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca MacLeod (14:00):
Who am I if I get it wrong?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:01):
Right, right.
Rebecca MacLeod (14:02):
And that gets in the way of remembering
anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:05):
A hundred percent.
You know, so many studentsactually do know the answer.
They do know, you know, I usedto be like this when I, my math
anxiety would pop up in tests,where I'd intuitively start
doing something and then mybrain would kind of get in the
way and be like,"no, no, no,erase that".
Like, wait, like, maybe itwould, you know, it would go
into this really cerebral place.
And it would turn out that myintuitive answer was the right
(14:27):
one.
You know?
But I had ignored it to be like,I should be doing this and, and
this kind of thing.
So how, what's also interesting,I think, and I've been working a
lot on, with my therapist, islike, how do we know the
difference?
Like, we have these students whoare coming from a fear space,
they are anxious around math.
These questions are popping up.
Who am I if I get it wrong?
And that shuts them down.
(14:48):
How do we discern thedifference?
This is a big question right?
but how do we, what's a tip todiscern the difference between
fear and intuition?
So a student who's, for example,like my intuition is telling me
not to try this because likesomething horrible is gonna
happen.
Uh, versus being able to belike, that's just fear.
That's not like a deep innerknowing.
That's like a, or I don't knowif I'm wording that correctly,
(15:11):
but you know what I mean, likehow, how could, how do we do
that?
Rebecca MacLeod (15:13):
Mm-hmm.
So this is something I've beenexploring, I, would, I would say
for 10 years.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:22):
That shows like it takes work, right?
'cause we're not conditionedthat way.
Rebecca MacLeod (15:25):
Mm-hmm.
It is what, what is, am I in apicture right now?
A picture being, uh, a moment intime where I had a negative
experience and I'm trying toprotect myself again from that
experience.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:39):
Oh my God, I love that.
Rebecca MacLeod (15:41):
Or am I connected to something else?
And normally if you are in aspace of fear as you're
speaking, oh my God, I shouldn'tdo this, I shouldn't do this, I
shouldn't do this.
That's not to your intuitionspeaking.
That is you doing your best toprotect yourself from having, a
(16:02):
negative experience again.
And intuition often is direct,clear, soft, and it's very often
the first thing comes in yourmind Before you evaluate it.
It's the drop in, it's the thingyou receive.
And then you know that part ofus that says, well, yes, no,
maybe pros and cons andhistorical experiences.
(16:24):
That's not intuition, that'smechanical.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:29):
I really love this because I think, one of the
things that kind of comes up.
In the a a broader culturalsense is this idea that certain
of us have math ability andcertain don't.
But again, we are all born with,you know, there, there really is
no scientific studies to, toback that up.
Like there's no like brain scansbeing like, some people have
these, brain, you know,whatever.
And the idea that I really thinkintuition could be a tool into
(16:51):
like actually allowing everyoneto tap into their natural
curiosity, their natural senseof like question asking and
creative thinking and, and youknow, our recognizing that so
much of what we do in life istied to this beautiful math is
just not necessarily evaluatedin the classroom, which to me is
just proof and evidence that wehave mathematical intuition.
(17:13):
And I think maybe'cause I lovethe idea of being like, here's a
problem, you know, you put thisin front of a student, here's a
problem.
You have no idea to solve.
First instinct.
What would you do?
Like, just like, you know what Imean?
Don't even think about it toomuch.
What would you do?
Now the likelihood is a lot oftimes that will happen and it
will be the quote unquote wrongthing to do, let's say.
(17:34):
Right?
Like some, you know, sometimesit won't lead to the, the
intended outcome that theteacher has or the answer.
And I actually think that's areally good exercise to be like,
even if it doesn't lead youthere, that that's okay and
that's part of the process.
But how would you frame that fora student who's, you know, we're
constantly told in math classthat the goal is to get a right
(17:56):
answer.
Yeah.
What's a good like, reframe of,of this?
Because I really like your, thisidea.
Rebecca MacLeod (18:02):
The goal is to have an experience.
How about that?
It's, it's to be in theexperience of the unknown.
So is math really the outcomehere or is it learning to trust
yourself when you don't knowwhat to do?
Getting a right answer, sure,that's a nice outcome.
But if that is immediately theconcern, then it's restrictive.
(18:26):
You've put a boundary around thesituation, so if you can make
the focus as well on it's okayto not know and to listen and to
breathe and to ask for help,then there's a different energy
(18:47):
around it.
And what do I learn when I getit wrong?
Does it matter?
Maybe I've learned something.
Yeah.
Maybe I've had the experience ofseeing myself be in fear and
then get it wrong and then I'mokay on the other side of it.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:03):
Yes.
Oh, I love the way you're,you're putting this because I
do, you know, that's such a bigpart of my work through math
therapy is this idea of evenlike, you know, practicing doing
things that you're probably notgonna get the intended outcome,
like getting into that space.
And I really love the tie inthat you're making between
intuition, it's that, you know,if you have an intuitive gut
(19:24):
instinct, which is so hard for,for us to listen to, just
listening to it more, and I'mjust even imagining like,
because I'm imagining someonebeing like, okay, I keep
listening to my gut, but it'salways like, you know, it's
never leading me to the answer.
But that there, there islearning in that, you know, and
that learning of being able totune into your gut, being able
to tune into your intuition isalways going to get you closer
(19:48):
to action.
And action is better than thestagnant place of fear and
freeze.
Right?
Like, am I onto something?
Rebecca MacLeod (19:55):
I think you definitely are, because what
creates the stagnation is thefear of failure.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:03):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (20:03):
But why does it matter?
Like, okay, well I've gotta geta B or an A to get into college.
Well, that matters.
Okay.
But are we, are we in a learningprocess right now?
The, the future orientedconcerns, that's what creates
the anxiety.
And that's what will constrictthe moment.
(20:27):
And so the learning processbeing more spacious, I think is
crucial.
So to move into a situation withcuriosity, I think is
everything.
I, I like to paint and make art,and sometimes I get caught up in
(20:49):
thinking, well, what do peoplewant?
What will sell, what will theybe interested in?
And immediately my creativityhas walls around it.
That's a future concern.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:01):
Could not be more relatable to me as a
musician.
Keep going.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:05):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:05):
I need, I need this talk.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:06):
Yeah.
And so do you make somethingnovel and of you, of your
essence?
in that moment?
Or are you making somethingthat's probably going to be
similar to what's already beenmade because that feels safe?
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
Oh my God, this could not be more
applicable to math.
Like, could not be more.
Because again, when we're inschool, we're not doing it for
ourselves.
Often we're doing it for theteacher in the room or for the
adult or for the grade.
And we're trying to be like, howare other, we say a lot in math,
that up till now most studentsare taught how to mimic, like
you're taught how to mimic nothow to think.
(21:40):
Like, do it this way.
It's called like"I do, you do"from the teacher.
Um, and you're right.
Like there's, there areimmediately walls around that.
Rebecca MacLeod (21:49):
For sure.
And it stifles the, thecreativity of problem solving.
I mimicked my way throughcollege.
I got an economics degree.
And, you know, I would go tostats class and be like, what
the hell is this?
And memorize the formulas, do itin a test and be like, this is
bullshit.
This isn't anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:05):
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (22:06):
You can fudge, you can fudge any statistics.
Yeah.
But some, some students may nottake the questioning that far.
They may just mimic their waythrough and then at some point
wonder, well, where, where am I?
Where am I in any of this?
So if, if at an earlier point itcan be beyond the rote
memorization of something, thenI think you're going to unlock
(22:28):
more in a student.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:31):
Oh, this is beautiful.
Did you, at any point, you know,when you were, uh, going through
your own school experience, didyou feel like you were incapable
of doing math?
Like did you For sure.
Yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (22:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I did.
I would look at something and Iwould feel like a, a, crunch in
my mind or a confusion or areaching for what's the right
thing, what did I do last time?
And I don't quite remember it.
And I would be so nervous that Iwould be cut off from even my,
my, my access to what we learnedin class.
(23:03):
And I would be frustrated,therefore I wouldn't study, and
therefore I would keep showingup in a a, a way that was not,
not fulfilling at all.
It was, it was totally fearbased.
And so had my learning been in adifferent environment, things
could have been very different.
Not only, you know, math as aconcept, what is this, but am I
(23:25):
approaching it from fear or am Iapproaching it with curiosity?
Vanessa Vakharia (23:30):
Okay, a couple more.
We're, we're reaching, I mean, Icould talk to you for a thousand
hours.
This is so fascinating.
Okay.
There's another big thing Iwanna talk about and I know this
is gonna seem kind of in theweeds for some of our listeners,
but everyone listening to thisknows how much I love astrology.
And one of the things that drewme to you is that you study
Vedic astrology.
And you mentioned that, youreally believe that astrology
(23:52):
played a role in your own mathexperience and in, in your, in
the way you were relating tomath when you were long younger.
Can you just tell us a littlebit about that?
Rebecca MacLeod (24:03):
So,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
and tell us what vedic astrology is first, a
little brief snippet.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:07):
Sure.
Vedic astrology is a system ofastrology.
It came from India and it canhelp us to understand ourselves
in any given moment.
It's.
It's like understanding what'shappening with the weather, but
your internal weather.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:22):
I love that.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:24):
And there's something called the hermetic
principle:"as above, so below"
Vanessa Vakharia (24:31):
I have that tattooed to my arm.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
TANC, stop.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Love, love.
Rebecca MacLeod (24:36):
So I think that's the, the basis of
astrology.
You're like, what the hell doesJupiter have to do with
anything?
It's over there.
Mm.
Well, maybe Jupiter is alsoinside.
In, in the realm of science,there's increasingly an
understanding that life iscoming from us.
It's not happening out here,it's coming from us.
(24:57):
So astrology is a way to getinside.
Okay.
And say what's happening outsideis also what's happening inside.
I'm related to the cosmos.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:06):
I love that.
And so tell me a bit about,looking back now, you know,
we've heard about your journeythrough math and what was
happening in school.
How you've kind of been able toreflect on that from that
perspective?
Rebecca MacLeod (25:19):
Right.
So in Vedic astrology, you canlook at different parts of your
life and see dominant energiestaking place at different times
in your life.
And you can look at your chartto see this.
And as I was learning Vedicastrology, I looked back and I
(25:39):
saw these different chapters ofmy life and how different
strengths or challenges emergedover time.
And so during a certain phase, Iwas very, very strong in math.
And then it changed to anotherphase, which was more
challenging my life.
And I could see how math becameutterly difficult for me,
(26:01):
confusing.
essentially the self-confidencechanged.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:06):
Like literally your relationship with it.
Rebecca MacLeod (26:08):
It did.
I, I, I was no longer confidentin math.
And I didn't understand why Iwas learning it.
I questioned it and I struggledto connect with it.
And I could see through lookingat my chart why that was.
Which is an interesting thing todo.
(26:28):
That's an interesting part ofastrology is you under get to
understand this system.
It's actually called a Vedicmathematics.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
That's right.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rebecca MacLeod (26:37):
So it's, it's a system of probabilities,
essentially.
Based on an understanding ofdifferent energies, what is more
likely to occur during a, aperiod of time or not.
Now, we have free will withinthat, but, we can say that there
are certain impressions thathappen on the mind at a certain
period of time, and that willimpact how you live out your
life.
(26:57):
And so I, I saw my math journeyin, in what I have learned so
far.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:01):
Wow.
And you, and not to get into thenitty gritty, even though, you
know, I want to, um, you, thisparticular thing just had to do
with the moon phase you were inand the Mars phase you were in.
Rebecca MacLeod (27:11):
That's right.
So the moon in my chart is veryhappy.
It's in a good position.
It likes where it is.
It's exalted.
The moon is the mind also, it's,it represents the mind.
Okay.
And so I was excelling inschool.
Very, very good at math.
Very good at everything.
Good.
You know?
Yeah.
Good.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:28):
She's using air quotes, everyone.
Rebecca MacLeod (27:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like from, from this, this waythat we like to judge children.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, and then the, thechapter, it was a new chapter
and this one was ruled by, byMars, which in my chart Mars is
challenged.
It's not in a place that isparticularly comfortable.
In my particular chart, Mars isalso associated with the mind.
(27:52):
And so, things became less clearto me.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:58):
You know, it's, it's so interesting'cause
I know we're talking aboutastrology and we love it, and,
and we all have different beliefsystems and different tools of
reflection or religions orspiritual manifestations.
Like whatever.
It's, you know, we have what thethings that help us feel
anchored in the world.
But what I, what I honestlythink is so interesting is like,
you're literally just talkingabout phases of your life, you
(28:18):
know, and you're using astrologyto understand them.
For, but for every, for all ofus, we've gotta recognize that
the students that we areteaching are all in different
phases of their lives.
Whether it's astrologically orlike more rooted in the material
world, or like hormonally ormentally or emotionally.
Like, they're all in thesedifferent phases.
And when I'm really hearing toois that like, we've gotta honor
(28:40):
that, you know, we have to honorthat and.
I wonder if there is a piece,because it's so hard for a
teacher with, you know, forhowever many students in a room
to tap into what every singlestudent is going through and
what they need.
You know, like how your teachercould have been like Rebecca's
in Mars phase.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, but I'm actually wonderingas kind of a final question.
(29:01):
We're talking so much aboutstudent intuition.
Is there a way teachers might beable to use their intuition to
tap into what a student needs?
You know, so often we'refrustrated because a student, we
can tell they're in anxiety.
We, we can tell they're notfeeling good.
They have an unhealthyrelationship with math, and we
don't know how to, you know,we've used all our tools and we
(29:22):
don't know how to navigate that.
Would you have any like tip forteachers of how to, how to
quickly, or not quickly, how toeven begin to tap into a gut
feeling of what a student mightneed?
Rebecca MacLeod (29:33):
Well, we're talking about pressure and
performance, both for theteacher and the student.
Yeah.
I gotta get this done.
Shit, I gotta learn this versus,versus peace.
And so can a teacher with 30 to40 students in the class, I know
there's a lot going on.
Can they show up in a way thatis loving in a moment?
(29:57):
And create a space that's cominga little more from, from the
heart.
And literally just, just picturethe heart or take a few moments
to do that before starting.
Is it possible to take a fewmoments to breathe with the
students,
Vanessa Vakharia (30:14):
With the class, yeah.
Rebecca MacLeod (30:15):
And, and say, this is, this is an exploration
we're going on together.
This isn't who you are.
Yes.
Your test score is not who youare.
This is a way for you to get toknow yourself and to get to know
the world.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:27):
Clapping over here, everyone.
Yes.
I love that.
And I also can't help but think,you know, so many, I love how
you said pressure to perform forthe teacher as well.
And I, I know that so, so manyincredible teachers are just,
they just wanna be doing theirbest.
They want students to feel good.
And I actually really think thatwhat you're saying, coming at it
from a place of love forthemselves as well.
(30:49):
You know, like giving themselvesthat self-compassion to say,
say, I'm just getting up here,I'm gonna do my best.
I'm gonna tap into my heartcenter and teach from that
place.
will probably be really healingand peaceful for them as well.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:01):
For sure.
And I think remembering that noteverything is up to them and not
everything is meant to goperfectly for every individual.
There's lots to be learnedthrough failure.
that may be what someone ischoosing to experience at that
time and there's a greater,broader reason for it that has
an impact later in life.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:21):
I believe that.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:22):
And so it's, it's not all up to you as a
teacher at all.
But, to, to create anenvironment where people can
have the experience that they'remeant to have
Vanessa Vakharia (31:32):
In like a loving way.
Rebecca MacLeod (31:33):
Exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:34):
Oh my God, I I love that.
Yeah.
I think that's so important.
My mantra for Bali has been,"asI let go of the need to control
my life, abundance flows easilyand effortlessly to me and those
around me".
And it's, it's funny, I've evenstarted realizing how much I'm
trying to control things thatlike I can't, you know, and that
I shouldn't.
And, and I really love that.
'cause I think teachers really,they're, they're so, they want
(31:56):
to give so much and, to reallyrecognize we can't control
everything.
You know, we can give andreceive.
But that's, that's it.
Okay.
So before we wrap up, this hasbeen just an incredible
interview.
So different from the ones I'vehad, but a conversation I really
always wanted to have.
And you're just so wise andcoming from a place that I think
is really useful.
So many of us don't get to hearthat perspective.
(32:18):
It was really healing for me,even to just kind of feel like
we do have an inner knowing andcuriosity and wonder are the
goal for students, but also forteachers and for us as humans.
So there are two questions Ialways ask all my guests, so I'm
gonna fire them at you.
Ready?
All right.
Question number one.
If there was one thing you couldchange about the way math is
(32:38):
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Rebecca MacLeod (32:40):
Love.
That's, that's it.
To, to make it not a space of,of performance, but a space of
love, which is fundamentallygoing to lead to a better
outcome.
Can we be in wonder andsweetness with this?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:59):
Sweetness.
I love this.
I love you.
Okay, amazing.
And then my final question is,if someone was chatting with you
and they were like, yeah, I geteverything you're saying about
intuition and we know, but I'mjust not a math person, what
would you say?
Rebecca MacLeod (33:16):
I would be curious to know what a math
person means to them.
What does it mean to be a mathperson?
To be really good at memorizingformulas, to be good at acing
tests, to be good at adding upyour, your grocery bill.
Like what does, what does thatmean?
Does the people think you'regood at math?
Because it's, it's what is thisgoal in, in mind that would be
(33:40):
interesting and to say there maybe some way that you can
experience math that feelsreally cool and fun to you.
And maybe you can find out whatthat is.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:50):
Oh, I love it.
So, such a you answer to, torespond to that question with a
question about the person.
Right.
Like, I think it's great andsometimes that asking instead of
telling.
Is what brings out of thatperson, what their deep mouth
trauma is and how it can behealed.
Rebecca MacLeod (34:04):
What do they believe about themselves?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:05):
What they, yeah.
Oh my God, this has beenamazing, amazing.
Our first interview ever inBali, like, honestly, you're
such a treat.
Thank you for taking the time.
Is there, do you want people tofind you anywhere?
Like do you have Instagram?
Do you like, should they, do youhave social media?
Rebecca MacLeod (34:22):
I do, um, where I post highly irregularly, so I
dunno how interesting it wouldbe for them.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:28):
Okay, so, no problem.
Yeah.
We'll just leave you as thismysterious, intuitive woman on
the podcast.
Perfect.
Find, find Rebecca in thecosmos.
Everyone, Yeah.
thank you so much for beinghere.
Rebecca MacLeod (34:39):
Thanks for having me.
And you're doing incrediblework.
Truly.
It's, it's a gift to make aspace where people can talk
about this and so that peoplecan have a more honest
experience of math andthemselves.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Should we hug?
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:59):
Oh God, We've never, all thank you so much.
Oh my God.
Oh, I'm not saying bye.
No need.
She's right here.
I mean, can we just take asecond to breathe that all in?
If this episode sparkedsomething for you, I mean, maybe
it reminded you that yourintuition matters, or maybe it
(35:21):
made you think about your ownmath journey in a new way.
Share it.
I guarantee that someone, youknow needs.
To hear this message today asmuch as you did, so send it to a
friend, post it to your story,or just DM me and let me know
what resonated.
I'm on Instagram at the Mathguru, and I'm always up for a
chat about sacred geometry,student joy, or what it means to
be a math person.
(35:41):
And hey, if you're loving thepod, a quick five star review
helps me reach more people andkeep these convos going.
Now for next week, I havesomething truly special for you
guys.
When I was in Bali, I was doingyoga like every day, searching
for meaning, blah, blah, blah,as one does.
And one day my yoga teacherpulled me aside and said, Hey, I
know you do this math therapystuff.
(36:03):
My girlfriend Charizma isterrified of math.
Like, you know, she cries at thesight of numbers kind of thing.
Can you help her?
Well, for the next couple ofweeks, charisma and I went
through some intense maththerapy and she was brave enough
to sit down with me on the micto share her experience.
I know I exaggerate a lot, butI'm actually serious that my
(36:23):
time getting to know Charizmawas one of the most absolute
highlights of my work in matheducation, and I learned as much
from her as she did from me.
So I can't wait to share herstory with you next week.
Now, one more thing before yougo.
As I said at the start of thisepisode, we have big things in
store.
Are you ready?
I'm actually so excited.
As of this fall, we willofficially be a weekly podcast.
(36:46):
That means new episodes everyweek, guys.
So I wanna hear from you.
If there's anyone you want me tointerview, any episode ideas you
have, any topics you want me toexplore, dm me on Instagram,
email me atvanessa@themathguru.ca.
I wanna hear from you becausethis podcast is for you guys.
Math Therapy is produced andedited by David Kochberg, and
(37:07):
that lovely music you're hearingis by my band, Goodnight
Sunrise, See you guys next weekand until then, go be curious,
go be kind, and go be your bestmath therapist self, for a
friend, student, colleague, oreven just for you because you
deserve it.
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