May 9, 2024 • 39 mins
When Vanessa saw today’s guest deliver a deeply personal talk at a recent math conference, she was left with more questions than answers; all she knew for certain was she had to get him on the podcast. Sean Nank is a math educator who believes that the power of our students' stories is the most valuable tool we can harness in our math classrooms, and he illustrates this by sharing his own journey of growing up in an abusive environment, learning to understand and embrace his OCD, and the fateful day that math, for real, saved his own life.
On that note, a heads up that today’s episode involves a brief discussion early on about abuse and suicide.
About Sean (Website, Twitter)
Sean Nank, PhD, is an award-winning math educator and author. He has worked in various positions with the United States Department of Education, White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, National Science Foundation, and the California Department of Education. Sean currently serves on the Executive Board at the National Council of Supervisors of Mathematics (NCSM) and is the Associate Editor of their Journal of Mathematics Education Leadership (JMEL), and works at Amplify as a math content designer.
Show notes:
- Sean’s 2022 ShadowCon talk: “Mathematics saved my life”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sean Nank (00:02):
Mathematics classrooms can sometimes be
extremely comforting, but theycan be borderline abusive at
times, hence, know, why we wouldneed, math therapy.
Fact of the matter is that mathdoesn't give people trauma,
people give people trauma.
And I think about that a lot inthe classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:18):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:40):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, I've been wanting tointerview today's guest ever
since I saw him give a heartfeltand moving speech almost two
years ago about how mathliterally saved his life.
I know that sounds likehyperbole and I very much
overused the word literally, butthis time I mean it.
(01:01):
Sean Nank is a math educator whobelieves that the power of our
students stories is the mostvaluable tool that we can
harness in our math classrooms,and he draws from his own very
personal experience.
We chat about how to trulycultivate trust in a classroom
setting, how labeling folks asnot math people can be
traumatizing, and for real, howa fascination with mathematics
gave him a reason to live.
(01:23):
On that note, a heads up thatthis episode contains a lot of
laughs, but also of some seriousdiscussion of abuse and suicide.
Sean, thank you so much forcoming to the pod.
I, I normally don't do this tostart, but you're such a unique
individual.
I was wondering if you couldexplain to the guests what props
you brought with you for ourinterview.
Sean Nank (01:43):
Props.
Oh, I just brought sound props,and uh, the stuff in case I get
hungry.
Like, like you say something andI disagree, I'm just gonna do
this.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:55):
Okay.
Well, thank you so much forsharing.
I've never actually had a guestwho's brought props before.
And you know, this reminds me ofactually one of the reasons I
wanted to have you on thepodcast.
I think in 2022, I saw you atShadowCon, I'm going to get you
to explain what that is cause Inever even had heard of it.
And I was so taken with yourtalk because I couldn't, like,
(02:18):
decide if I liked you or, like,really didn't.
I couldn't place, like, myfeelings, my reaction, my very
visceral reaction to what wasgoing on with you.
And I thought, I was like, youknow, I really want to talk to
that guy more because I'm veryintrigued, but I'm also
intrigued by my own reaction.
And I don't mean it in a badway, but when I have a reaction
with me that sticks, I alwayswondered what it was that made
(02:39):
it so.
And like, you showing up withprops is not in the least
surprising me, but it againreminds me of the reason that I
wanted to have you on is becauseI genuinely want to know more
about you.
I have some questions about whatyou said on that fortuitous day
in 2022.
So should we start with thatmoment?
Sean Nank (02:56):
Sure.
I get it.
You, uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:58):
Well, and also
Sean Nank (02:58):
invited me on this to see if you'd like me or not.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:02):
Yes.
Sean Nank (03:02):
Ok, it's a test.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So there's no rubric for this.
Like this is neither formativenor summative assessment.
I just generally, I'm curious.
What do I notice?
What do I wonder about SeanNank?
Sean Nank (03:13):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:14):
So 2022, bring us back.
What is ShadowCon?
Sean Nank (03:17):
Uh, ShadowCon is dead, actually, they retired it.
2022 was the last time it everhappened.
The best way I can describeShadowCon, when I went to it in
the past, I always viewed it as,like, the TED Talk of the math
education world.
It was just so enigmatic, therewas so much energy.
The people had around about tenminutes to, uh, talk about
(03:42):
something that they'repassionate about.
The thing that I like the mostabout it in recent years though,
they used to pick people, but,uh, the last couple of years
they had people apply.
Which I think is really nicebecause it kind of evens the
playing field because then itturns less into who you know and
more into what you want to saythat you haven't ever been able
to say before.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:00):
Wasn't the whole point of ShadowCon though,
like from what I heard, wasn'tthe point almost to give voices
to those that wouldn't beselected by like the mainstream
conferences as a whole?
Sean Nank (04:13):
Um, well, there's, I think there's some people who
are heavy hitters who have beena part of ShadowCon.
I also think there's some peoplewho weren't as well known.
I mean, to be honest with you, Ihave no idea why they, accepted
my invitation.
I'm just happy that they did.
So, for me, I was like one ofthose, I'm not worthy, thank you
(04:35):
for the platform, I neverthought I would be able to do
anything like that in my life.
And then, that runs the gamutfrom that to people who have
been keynotes nationally.
So, they do a good mix of, ofpeople we might not have heard
of.
And people who we're going toknow the name.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:51):
So tell us, tell me again what your talk was
about.
I mean, I remember it veryclearly, but no one else has
necessarily heard it.
Would you be comfortable likesharing?
Sean Nank (05:00):
Yeah, my talk was mainly about, uh, getting
visceral reactions to see ifthey liked me or hated me.
And apparently you haven'tdecided yet, so I'll tell you it
again.
So, as briefly as possible, Iouted myself on the stage, uh,
and I told the whole world, Ijust told my daughter about an
hour or two before, nobody in mylife knew that I had OCD.
(05:22):
I was hiding it my entire life.
I did a really good job at it.
There's been a couple of peoplesince ShadowCon who were like,
oh, I totally saw but theydidn't see, they had no idea.
Part of it though was also Iwent into the aspect that the
OCD, the mathematics of OCD, itjust saved my life.
(05:43):
Because I was, I grew up in avery abusive environment.
And the story that I told inShadowCon was about one night in
particular when I was in middleschool, and my mother had at it
with the belt, and then myfather did as well.
And, uh, on this particularevening he let, because
(06:03):
everybody doubles up the beltwhen they start hitting you with
it, he accidentally let thebuckle go and it wrapped around,
hit me in the groin, and I wasdown for the count.
I couldn't get up.
And he wouldn't stop.
And he was honest.
He told me that he wasn't goingto stop until I got back up.
So, I believed him.
I don't know how, but I got backup.
(06:24):
As soon as I was on my feetagain, he stopped.
He left the room.
I fell to the ground.
Passed out.
And the next morning, I decidedthat I was done.
I decided that there was only afinite amount of pain that you
could take in this life, so Iwas going to take everything I
was going to have to go throughover the next few years in my
family, package it into onemoment, and I decided to jump in
(06:45):
front of a school bus while Iwas on the way to school.
The thing about the OCD, though,was it was, a, fall, and it was
in the Chicagoland area, sothere were a bunch of branches
on this one tree, and I startedOCDing the crap out of this
tree.
I started counting the branches,and then I started thinking,
well, I can't count the branchesbefore the next bus comes, So I
(07:05):
started thinking about fractalswithout even realizing what
fractals were, and I got sodistracted, so like my
dysfunctionality of OCDdistracted me from committing
suicide that day, because I had,I had fully planned on doing it.
And when the bus went by, I wasokay with it because I was just
engulfed in the mathematics of atree through my OCD.
(07:31):
So that's pretty much the gistof it.
And then the, the overarchingconsideration was letting people
know that that wasn't themathematics that I had ever
experienced in math classrooms.
K through 12 plus mathclassrooms.
I had some really bad mathteachers and I had some
amazingly wonderful mathteachers, but none of them
really taught the things that Iwas thinking about
(07:52):
mathematically outside of theclassroom.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (07:55):
Mm hmm.
Sean Nank (07:56):
also the aspect that mathematics classrooms can
sometimes be extremelycomforting, but they can be
borderline if not abusive attimes, uh, hence, you know, why
we would need, uh, math therapy.
But, I mean, overarchinglythinking about it, the simply
complex fact of the matter isthat math doesn't give people
trauma, people give peopletrauma.
(08:17):
And I think about that a lot inthe classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:19):
Wow, yeah.
Sean Nank (08:21):
But you were there.
What did you think?
Do you like me now?
Hate me?
Podcast over?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:26):
Well hold on, ok.
So I do love making jokes allthe time, but I want to just,
for a minute, acknowledge theseverity of your story and just
like your vulnerability insharing it and just say thank
you.
And also, I'm beyond sorry thatever happened to you and, um, I
yeah, that's horrible, butlet's, let's, I want, I also
(08:47):
have like a ton of questionsabout this.
The first question actuallybeing, did you know you had OCD?
Sean Nank (08:55):
Yeah, the first time I knew I
Vanessa Vakharia (08:56):
At the, in that moment it.
Sean Nank (08:57):
Uh, yes, I knew actually, I think around about,
I didn't know what it was, but Iknew something was different.
Around about second grade, andit was counting, counting the
colored tiles on the floor in myelementary school.
So it was a way, OCD for me wasa way to distract my mind, so I
(09:18):
didn't think about what couldpotentially happen when I went
home that evening.
It was an escape for me.
It was a way to occupy your mindso that you didn't worry about
other things.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:30):
So, I guess I'm thinking about this in so
many different ways, becauseyeah, this is a podcast about
math trauma and about maththerapy.
And I, I love what you said,like, that math doesn't cause
trauma, people cause trauma.
And I'm, I'm actually justletting that settle in right
now.
Because whenever, I talk aboutmath trauma, I talk about things
that could be traumatic forsomeone, and I'm kind of going
(09:50):
through my mind being like,wait, is he right?
And yeah, you're right.
It's always about people.
It's like, you know, there's alack of representation out
there, or someone tells you yousuck at math or you're being
compared to other, it isactually always being enacted by
a person, the experience thatyou're about to have.
But one of the things I alwaystalk about is how, um, being
diagnosed or undiagnosed withlike a learning difference or a
(10:10):
mental health issue can actuallybe really traumatic
mathematically.
Like, for example, let's say youare never diagnosed with ADHD.
You never get an access to thoseresources and you just think
like there's something wrongwith you.
And that kind of, that can be amath trauma as opposed to being
like, you know, you actually getdiagnosed, you get the
resources, you've got theaccommodations, like you take
(10:31):
some Ritalin if you need it, Idon't know, whatever.
So I'm thinking about OCD inthat way.
And like wondering if, you'respeaking about it in this very
like positive way as, you know,it saved your life in this way
that you could use it todistract from this really
horrible thing going on in yourlife.
How did that affect you inclass?
Did your teachers know you hadOCD?
Did it ever like affect yourperformance in a way that they
(10:53):
perceived negatively orpositively?
Like, how did it affect you inmath?
Sean Nank (10:56):
Hmm.
Actually, in math classes, itlent itself to more success than
anything else.
Because I was always, sothere's, there's different types
of OCD.
And one of the things that I dois, I do a lot of, counting, for
distraction.
So it's like counting on top ofcounting on top of counting.
(11:21):
So there's different layers andI'm always doing it.
So in a way, my whole life I hadbeen doing math in my head.
Um, so in that manner, it was,uh, it was a good thing.
The point in time where itwasn't, was when people would
misconstrue things.
(11:42):
So there's times, well even tothis day, where I'll be in
conversations, or when I was inthe classroom, when I would
start hyper focusing on, uh,different, uh, events, thinking
about bad things that wouldhappen.
Because the thing about me withmy OCD is, I'm not worried about
me, I'm worried about the peopleI love.
So it's kind of a matter of, ifI don't check the stove 17
(12:05):
times, then something bad isgoing to happen to my daughter
that day.
So, if I'm counting in theclassroom, to try to get that
cyclical reference of somethingbad that's going to happen that
I have no control over, then itlooks like I'm disengaged when
actually I'm just, I'm trying toget through those thoughts.
And a lot of people willactually, honestly, I'm looking
(12:27):
forward to me not having to lieto people anymore, by omission.
Because there's times, I wasjust out to dinner a little
while ago with a friend, beforethey knew I had OCD, and I was
looking in the distance andthere was something I had to
count.
And they're like, what are youlooking at?
Oh, I'm looking at this coolthing over here.
So I, and I felt really badbecause I was hiding it.
So I had to, I had to lie andnot tell them what I was really
(12:48):
looking at or what I was reallythinking or what I was really
doing in that moment, whichkinda sucks for the people who
are around me because they don'tknow, they don't know that part
of me.
They don't know why I'm doingwhat I'm doing.
And they don't know that it'snot a, it's not a reflection of
the conversation or of them orhow much I do or don't care
about them.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:07):
This reminds me of when we talk about
students and when we're talkingabout students as like, oh,
they're so distracted or they'reso unmotivated or they're lazy,
but really there's likesomething completely entirely
else going on with them.
And I mean, one thing I'venoticed about you just in our
conversations is that you're areally good listener and you're
really observant and you'recurious and you actually care
about the why of why someone issaying something or I mean, even
(13:30):
here, you're being so kind withme, saying you wondered why I
potentially had a visceralreaction to you, which I'm
realizing was a really badchoice of words and is not a
good look for me.
I didn't, I don't think, I don'tthink I use that word correctly.
Sean Nank (13:42):
I mean, I'm going to look all your other podcasts and
see if you attacked peoplesaying I'm either love you or
hate you, go.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:49):
Um, but my point is, though, so I'm
wondering if actually you haveany advice for teachers.
I know you do a lot of work withother educators and you, one of
the things you pride yourself onis really like allowing students
to share their voices and increating space for them to show
up in their authentic versionsof themselves.
How do you have dinner with afriend and not look at them
looking in the distance and justthink they're disengaged?
(14:12):
How do you watch a student whoseems like they're completely
not listening and see past thatand get to the root of what's
going on?
Sean Nank (14:19):
Um, as succinctly as possible, I never use these two
words, but I'm going to use itright now.
Shut up and ask.
The thing about it is whenpeople have disabilities and
there's exponential confoundingof, it's like in education and
especially in math we judgepeople all the time and there
(14:40):
are certain people who feel likethey belong and certain people
who don't.
So if you are not white, if youare not a male, if you have a
disability, those are threethings that could severely
affect you in a math classroomand it's exacerbated if you have
all three then we really need tofix the system because you
almost have no hope, the systemis designed against you.
(15:00):
I, I think, if I had to sayanything to teachers, it's
understand.
Cause like, so here's what astudent like me would tell you
if you cared to ask.
Or, no, strike that, not if youcared to ask, if you had the
time to ask.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:15):
Well, but cared too.
Sean Nank (15:17):
Yeah, that's true.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:18):
Sorry, I'm like, I don't want to talk over
you, but I think it's fair to belike, care to ask, have the time
to ask, have the courage to ask.
Sean Nank (15:26):
Have the comfort to ask.
One of the things I tellteachers is, uh, every single
teacher needs to go throughpsychological therapy.
Not because we're crazy forteaching, but because we had to
deal with our crap so that wecan be there and be ready and
not be triggered by whateveranybody else is going through.
Because like, if they, if theycared to ask me, I would tell
them something like, it's like,it's like I'm enveloped in a
(15:49):
darkness.
Like, kind of grasping, gaspingfor air, drowning in like, just
this sea of actions and intentthat I have really no control
over at all, until I remember tojust breathe.
And it takes time for certainpeople to be able to do that.
So it's a matter ofunderstanding and giving people
time.
I mean, I've had more than oneadministrator come into my
(16:12):
classroom and not like the waymy classroom is
Vanessa Vakharia (16:15):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (16:15):
because there's time in the classroom and I am
totally okay with a little bitof silence.
I'm totally okay with somebodytaking a little break.
We need that from time to time.
So I guess the best way I cansay it is how often do we really
stop, look at somebody, and askthem, How are you?
And then sit in that moment anddo nothing other than listen to
(16:36):
what they have to say.
Instead of asking it so we cantell them how we are, asking it
for a particular end result.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:44):
It's so interesting you say that because
on a personal note, since we'rehaving therapy together here, on
a personal note, I've been likenoticing over the past few
years, you know, there are somefriends I like don't see in
person, you know, I just likewe, because I just don't
socialize at all.
Um, but, but like, text, we textall the time.
But if were ever to go throughall of our texts, I could go
(17:06):
through texts for like, from sixmonths worth of conversations
and not see a single questionfrom them to me.
I can't even remember the lasttime, like, certain people have
been like, how are you?
Like, no, really, how are you?
Not just like,"oh my God, how'sit going?
I have the craziest story totell you".
And, and sorry I'm gonna back upand say that when I talk about
math therapy and I'm sharing itwith teachers, and in the book
(17:26):
that I have coming out, it's allabout like how to do these steps
of math therapy and one of thosesteps is helping students map
out their trauma, not by beinglike hey who hurt you, you know,
but by looking for signs and byactively listening and by asking
these questions.
And like a neighbor once said tome, kids will tell you what's
going on with them if you justobserve.
(17:48):
If you just actually activelylisten and observe, it's
actually not that hard.
It's not like you have to be atherapist.
It's not like you have to pryinformation out of them.
Like actually listening,actually asking those questions,
those spaces and breaks fortime, like you need those for
people to process and actuallybe able to tell you things in
the classroom.
Sean Nank (18:06):
Yeah, well there's, I don't know, there's always a
give and take in everyrelationship, right?
If we're teaching to the best ofour ability, then we're learning
just as much as our students arelearning.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:16):
Yes.
I love that.
Sean Nank (18:18):
You're reminding me too, like, when I got ready for
ShadowCon, they approved me, andthey did a really good job of
trying to get us ready, but thenthere came a point in time where
I thought they were gonna dropme.
Um, because my story could havebeen triggering for people and
part of it too was the aspectof, I didn't have a lot of math
(18:39):
in my story.
And I actually put, if you watchthe video, I say halfway
through, I go through some ofthe math and I say that's all
the math we're going to get.
Because we have too much math inmath classrooms.
We fill it with what we thinksometimes instead of just
stopping and listening to whatstudents think and asking them
questions.
And so the key is, I get a lotof pushback of there's not
(19:00):
enough time.
We feel, as human beings, likewe've gotten really good at
protecting ourselves, but in allhonesty, we're just trying to
fall into each other, to try tofeel like we belong, and just be
accepted for who we are.
So if you ask simple questions,you can learn more about
(19:20):
somebody in one minute thanlike, a year of therapy.
And if you have thatrelationship, if you have that
trust.
And it takes a solid two, threeweeks for students to trust me
because they've been burnedbefore.
And they've gone through thefirst week of class where, Yay!
We're gonna have fun! Let's dothese icebreakers! I love you!
You love me! Now sit down, shutup, and listen to math.
(19:43):
So they know that it's gonnaeventually change, it's just a
matter of making sure that itdoesn't and providing that
space.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:50):
I hear this narrative all the time of like,
we need to get to know ourstudents so that we can then
build math lessons around theirinterests.
Like, what are they watching?
Oh, we'll put like fivecharacters from Euphoria in this
math problem.
And it's like, okay, that's oneway.
But also when you find out whatthey care about, you realize
what their stakes are in yourclass.
Like, how do you raise thestakes of your content and of
your pedagogy to be like, thisstudent here who doesn't give a
(20:12):
shit about math, doesn't want togo into a STEM career and wants
to be a rock star, is stillgoing to care because they are
getting some sort of value frommy classroom.
Sean Nank (20:20):
Right.
Never underestimate theprofoundness of one human being
letting another human being knowthat you care, that you're
willing to listen.
Yeah.
And it's, it doesn't have to be,you need to have the
conversation before you have theconversation.
You need to have theconversation that's math
agnostic before you can have theconversation, you don't have to.
(20:44):
But it's a lot better, and it's,I mean,
Vanessa Vakharia (20:47):
Why?
Tell me why you think it's a lotbetter because I say it all the
time but I don't even know why.
Sean Nank (20:51):
Because you don't have to like somebody to be able
to learn from them, but it makesit a hell of a lot easier.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:57):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (20:58):
It's a, it's a matter of building the relationships
because it's all aboutrelationships.
And we tend to think thatmathematics is, well, it is
logical, but we think it'snature's language and it's not.
It's a human being's best guessat nature's language.
It is not nature's language.
Okay.
So here's the deal, there's ahuge push to rehumanizing
mathematics right now.
(21:19):
And I think every time
Vanessa Vakharia (21:20):
But what that mean?
Oh Sorry.
Oh god, Sean.
Okay, go.
Sean Nank (21:25):
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (21:25):
I'm the worst interviewer right now.
Sean Nank (21:27):
The biggest thing I can tell people is there's, um,
we don't need to rehumanizemath.
We need to just stopdehumanizing it.
If mathematics is our languageas human beings, our way of
making sense of the world, andthat's the world we live in, if
we use it on nature, if we useit with people, it's still our
language.
And it should be everybody'slanguage, that's part of the
(21:48):
problem, but it's inherent.
So when people look atmathematics and say, we need to
rehumanize it, I said, what thehell did you do to it in the
first place to dehumanize it?
Just go back to the way it wasbefore.
It's kind of like a Deweyanaspect.
Um, John Dewey.
As soon as we startedsegregating the, the subject
matters, we also startedsegregating the point behind the
(22:09):
subject matter.
So we didn't just make thePythagorean theorem because we
had nothing better to do on asunny afternoon.
There was a reason why weinvented math, why we discovered
it, why we, whatever way youwant to phrase it.
So it's partially going back tothose reasons so that we can
connect them.
And it's, it's also part of thestorytelling aspect too, but I'd
(22:29):
like to say I love storytelling,but I don't like it when, when
people just tell the stories ofmathematicians.
There needs to be some gatewayso that we can bring it into
what it means for us in thepresent moment.
And by the way, it's okay to saythat certain subsets of math
mean nothing to me.
There's so many branches ofmathematics that we force
people.
So I just told my geometryclasses yesterday that most
(22:53):
people don't like geometry whenthey
Vanessa Vakharia (22:54):
Oh my God, I don't like geometry.
That's me.
Sean Nank (22:57):
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:58):
No, thank you!
Sean Nank (22:59):
It's, not the math that we've ever seen before.
Like K through ninth grade oreighth grade, we get this
algebra.
We get this certain subset ofmathematics, and we skip the
stats, we skip the numbertheory, we skip the geometry,
and then all of a sudden there'ssomething that we've never seen
before.
And I wonder how many people, ifthey were exposed to different
branches of mathematics earlyon, kindergarten, first, second,
third grade, would find the typeof mathematics they love.
(23:22):
Because let's be honest, there'ssome math, so you just said you
didn't like geometry as much.
I'm sure there's some math thatyou love doing, and some that
you don't.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:30):
Yeah.
Like give me some algebra, youknow, that's like some juicy
shit, but like, ugh, shapes,like I just don't want to.
Sean Nank (23:37):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:38):
This is the other thing.
We haven't even talked aboutthis yet, but you talked about
how you love storytelling.
But I have to say, as soon asyou said humanizing mathematics,
I am not kidding, I, I for real,no joke, had a visceral
reaction.
I'm just going to say it soundspretentious because no one ever
defines it and so I reallyappreciate us talking about
(23:58):
this, but I actually need you togo back for a second What do you
mean when you say, let's go backto the way it was when we
invented it?
Sean Nank (24:07):
Okay, so, I'll not talk about math, so we can talk
about math.
Have you ever heard a song thatreally resonates with you?
Vanessa Vakharia (24:15):
Yes.
Sean Nank (24:16):
Okay, so you don't need to know the meaning behind
the lyrics from the person whowrote them in order to be able
to let that, like, really touchyour soul and be one of your
favorite songs ever.
But if you know the origin, andif you know their meaning, then
it'll help you to interpret yourreaction, and it'll help you to
(24:36):
make meaning of that song.
It just brings more richness.
So I would say the way that wehumanize math is to just put it
out there and ask people whatthey think about it.
What does this mean to you, whatdo these data mean to you?
What, you know, just give themthe numbers, give them the
concepts, start talkingmathematically and logically,
(24:56):
because when you do that, youopen up the door for them to be
able to interpret what it meansto them.
So you, you can go back and youcan go to the origin of it, but
it's only if it makes theirmeaning richer, because it's not
about the people who created themath in the first place, and
it's not about us.
It's about them.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:14):
So, what do other people mean when they say
humanizing mathematics?
Do they mean this?
Sean Nank (25:21):
In all honesty, and I'm trying to over generalize
here, I think what people sayabout humanizing mathematics is
creating mathematical problemsthat are culturally proficient
and applicable to every aspectof our society.
But I'm going to push back onthat and say, none of us will
ever be able to do that unlesswe listen to our students.
So there's the best minds in theworld, in my opinion, who talk
(25:44):
about humanizing mathematics,and then they push out problems,
That are low key sexist, andthey don't even see it because
that's not on their radar, orthey're into feminism And I am
like 100 percent totally intofeminism But then if you have
that lens you're gonna missdifferent aspects of different
(26:06):
people who have been oppressedSo like where I teach right now,
it's the highest population ofSamoas in the entire nation.
I don't think anybody's gonnacreate a curriculum based on the
Samoan culture But what I can doin the classroom is never assume
what math means to them, whattheir culture is, but what I can
do as a teacher is I can listen.
(26:27):
So here's the deal.
I don't care if somebody cansolve an advanced calculus
problem.
I care if a K 12 teacher canunderstand the mathematics
enough to listen to a studentand be able to bring that
mathematics into their life.
Which is one of the reasons whyone of the favorite things, I'm
going to start it up next weekin, uh, in my high school
classes, and I'm going to do itwith my university students too
(26:48):
is a passion project, where theproject is all about shooting a
two minute video where theygroup together in groups of
three over a common passion andtry to find the mathematics
inherent in their passion.
And that's pretty much what weneed to do with mathematics, um,
in our classroom.
What does this mean to you?
And it is not looking atsomebody thinking, Oh, so you
(27:11):
are this type of person whopresents as this type of way.
So you're not going to like thissubject.
Or I mean, even if we make itagnostic, people think we make
it agnostic and there's stilljudgment.
What do we do the first time wedo stats?
We bring out the playing cards.
About a quarter of my studentshave never seen a playing card
in their entire life and theyhave no idea what
Vanessa Vakharia (27:27):
Playing cards are over, they're like 1999,
like no one uses cards, we havephones.
Sean Nank (27:32):
Yeah, but it's still in the math curricula
everywhere.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:35):
Yeah, but like this is a huge problem even with
our data management and finitecurriculum, like as soon as
there's questions about cardslike and it's like and how many
suits are there and kids arelike what the fuck are you
talking about?
Sean Nank (27:46):
Exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:47):
Okay, so you have mentioned storytelling a
few times and I want to like wehave to talk about your book
that you have coming out, calledEmpathetic Storytelling.
Am I correct?
Sean Nank (27:57):
Empathetic Storytelling, Igniting Change in
Education.
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:01):
And so we're going to talk about the book in
a sec, but you've brought upstorytelling a few times during
this conversation and I kind offeel like it's really a thread
that's woven through becauseyou've told me a lot about your
math story in a way, right?
Like the way that OCD has playedinto your relationship with math
and that has played into yourrelationship with yourself and
how important it is for us tolisten to our students' stories.
(28:23):
And even when we're talkingabout building trust, how
storytelling and beingvulnerable is such a way for us
at the classroom to tell ourstories and be vulnerable, build
trust in our students.
There's just so much there.
But one thing I love that yousaid is that we can't just be
telling stories, telling storiesdoesn't mean like, let me tell
you a story about Archimedes andlike what he invented, you know,
so, tell me more about that.
(28:45):
Like, you're about to release anentire book on storytelling,
what are the stories and how arethey important to helping people
form better relationships withmath?
Sean Nank (28:53):
Yeah, so the book and the stories in there are, um, it
started as a 10 minute talk thatturned into a one hour
conference presentation, thatthen turned into an article that
when I went to submit it, uh,there was a call for a book, uh,
about critical storytelling.
And I thought, ooh, I can spenda few minutes writing a couple
(29:14):
of pages and get rejected.
So, I submitted it and theyaccepted the book.
And the premise of it was, uh,that critical storytelling is,
critical.
You're not going to buildrelationships by being critical.
We need to be critical so we canbreak down the substructures of
the educational experience,especially in epistemologically
privileged positions that wedon't hold.
(29:36):
But what we really need to do ishave empathetic storytelling.
What that means is, we don'twant to tell stories just so
that we're telling stories.
We want to, and you've heardabout the mirror and the window
and the doors, and that'slovely, but in the book I say we
need to go one step farther, andwe need to make our stories
empathetic gateways.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:56):
Tell people, like, some people might not know
about the windows and themirrors and the doors.
Sean Nank (30:01):
Oh, so the window's is when you tell a story, it
provides a window as areflection into when you tell
the story, the way you tell thestory, if you listen to how
you're doing it, you'll learn alot about yourself.
The mirror is, you know,reflecting back on you, the
window is letting somebody peerin.
What's even better is lettingsomebody step through a door
into the world of yourmathematical story.
What I say is even better thanthat is letting them step
(30:22):
through that door, sitting atthe table, and conversing in a
way that it becomes both of yourstory, so that you're
symbiotically sharing detailsabout your life, getting to know
each other, and connecting on anempathetic level.
So the book, um, one of thethings I told the publishers was
if I'm going to start talkingabout empathetic storytelling,
you don't want a book from somestraight white guy.
(30:43):
I need to open it up.
So we open it up to the world toanybody in the educational
community from, you just thinkof anybody who has any
interactions with education atall from students to parents to
teachers to, anybody,administration, higher ed, pre
K, whatever.
And then we pitched it based onfour themes and the first theme
is, uh, racism, sexism, any ofthe isms, ableism.
(31:07):
The second one is, uh, belongingand identity.
The third is caring andrelationships.
And the fourth one is bullying.
And when I got the stories backfrom these people, I thought I
would be able to edit two orthree stories or approve or deny
three or four stories a day, butthey were extremely powerful.
And I had to take time inbetween each one because we had
stories of, oh, black elf on theshelf, being locked in a closet
(31:31):
at school because you couldn'tread, the first time somebody
decided as a teacher to notchemically straighten their hair
and the result of the studentsand the adults.
And I'm going to tell you rightnow, the adults are meaner than
the students in education.
The reaction that they had.
ADHD, adults bullying, dyslexia,um, being Palestinian on
September 11th, and then now,what that means for people.
(31:53):
And the thing that I liked themost about the book was they
were able to tell their story,but then I required them to have
a, uh, you have to choose, wherethey went into the reasons why
they chose to do what they didin the moment and what they
would do differently now.
And also a reflection onimplicit and explicit biases.
And when I talked to to thecontributors, it was helping
(32:14):
them to lean more into theirbiases than others.
Because if we tell stories, it'spartially so people get to know
us, but they're beautiful waysof getting to know ourselves.
Because every time you tell astory, it's slightly different
because the way the meaning wemake of stories, especially from
years ago, changes because wechange.
So I think there's a wonderfulway that we can use stories
(32:36):
outside of the classroom withadults, but inside the classroom
as well, to create that bond.
So anytime I talk about anystory in the classroom, it's so
I can get them talking abouttheir story.
It's a gateway, so that they cantalk, and they can trust, and I
can get to know them.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
Well, that's amazing and it's, it's such a
perfect tie in because thefourth step of math therapy,
like I go through steps of whatteachers need to do to heal like
math trauma in their classroom,and the fourth one is all about
having students write out theirmath stories and then rewrite
them, rewrite them with a newperspective, like not changing
the facts like you said, butlike bringing new light to them.
(33:13):
Because our words and ourthoughts define our reality, you
know, as much as like theobjective events that happen.
So I think that's really, reallycool.
And, I appreciate you sharingthat.
I want to talk so much moreabout it, but we are out of
time.
We got to go and I have to askyou the two final questions that
I ask everyone.
Before I do that, is thereanything you haven't talked
(33:33):
about that you want to talkabout?
Like, is there anything I didn'task?
Like, I asked you the weirdestshit.
So like, is there anything thatyou're like, well, I really
wanted to talk about this?
Sean Nank (33:40):
Oh, yeah, there was a ton of things I really wanted to
talk about, but I'm gonna dothat on the next podcast, the
Therapy After Math Therapypodcast, to realize what the
visceral reaction was.
So, I'm just gonna save it forthat person.
Maybe when I come on, they'llask me if I like them, something
like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:57):
Good luck, good luck to that person.
Okay, so the two things I haveto ask you, the first is what,
if there is one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Sean Nank (34:09):
So I'm thinking of, since we just got done talking
about the book, I'm thinking oflike the last couple of
sentences in the book as soon asyou say that, which goes
something like, the key toworking together lies in
listening to and learning fromand finding the value in
everybody's story.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:26):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (34:27):
And I think that maybe then we'll realize that
we're all connected through oneshared story that's intricately
woven together in a diversetapestry with the delicate
thread of our humanity.
So, I think if I had one thing,I would encourage adults to just
stop and listen, so thatstudents can be afforded the
(34:50):
same thing.
And it's, it's funny when mydaughter graduated from high
school, I told her to, uh, takerisks, be yourself, and, uh,
don't worry about what the wrongpeople think because then you're
not giving the right people achance to know who you really
are.
Uh, I think there's a lot oftimes that we don't let people
be who they are.
And honestly, there's times,like right now, I have an
(35:12):
administrator who really doesn'twant me to be who I am and
doesn't want me to let mystudents be who they are.
But I need to protect them and Ineed to let that happen in our
classrooms.
Because if we don't, then, Imean, what's it all for?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:27):
Wow.
And finally, what would you sayto someone who has heard all of
this wonderful stuff and justsays, but Sean, I am not a math
person.
Sean Nank (35:37):
Thank God you're not a math person because we treat
people like shit in mathclassrooms more often than not.
If you were a math person, thatwould mean that you would have
to endure the abuse that somepeople go through in math.
You're not a math person notbecause of the math.
You're not a math person becauseyou had that one incident with
that one person who probablyshould have stayed home that day
(36:00):
because they were having a badday and they let you know that
you're not one.
Um, as, viscerally succinctly aspossible as I could put it, I
think that's my answer, um,because I mean, yeah, we are all
math people, but I, I mean, I,given certain teachers in
certain classrooms, I reallywant to be a math person, but
given the way math is portrayedin other classrooms, I don't
(36:21):
want to have anything to do withit.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:24):
Well, fuck, this is great.
Um, in case you're wonderingwhat the verdict is, I like you,
now.
More than I did 46 minutes ago.
But seriously, thank you somuch.
Thank you for sharing yourstories.
Thank you.
Like, honestly, you've sharedsome really meaningful,
important stuff, and I'm soexcited that everyone can hear
and learn from you.
And I, I honestly do want tothank you because you've shared
(36:46):
some stuff that I assume is, isprobably likely difficult to
share.
And I know that people listeningwill really gain something from
it, so.
Sean Nank (36:54):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:54):
Thank you so much!
Sean Nank (36:55):
And I want to stick around because now I have
questions for you and for Davidas well.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:58):
Great.
Okay.
Yeah, so we'll do your podcastas soon as this one's over.
All right.
Thank you so much I have to saybye or David will kill me.
So bye.
Sean Nank (37:07):
Bye.
David Kochberg (37:07):
But he still has so many snacks to to open up!
Vanessa Vakharia (37:15):
Okay, so how are we feeling after all of
that?
I honestly had to spend a lot oftime in stillness in order to
process so much of what Seansaid, and I'm still thinking
about it now.
I think the most valuabletakeaway for me is that
connecting with our studentsisn't just about figuring out
what they're interested in sothat we can target curriculum
and content at them, but insteadit's about truly understanding
who they are as entire peopleand how the stories they bring
(37:37):
into our classrooms shape themas learners.
True connection is where healingmath trauma happens.
True connection is how we canhelp our students really, truly
build meaningful relationshipswith math, and I'm grateful to
Sean for sharing his story withus all.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(37:59):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(38:21):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
Fuck.
You were being so noisy!
Sean Nank (38:40):
Was I?
Vanessa Vakharia (38:40):
You know, you might have OD OCD, but I have
ADHD and it's so distracting
Sean Nank (38:44):
Oh I could kind of tell that yeah, I wasn't gonna
assume but
Vanessa Vakharia (38:48):
This episode just be man with OCD a woman
with ADHD walk into podcast.
Sean Nank (38:55):
I can't hear you.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:55):
Stop! And I can't even see you.
It's so annoying.
I can't see you.
All I can hear are these weirdfucking noises.
Mathematics classrooms can sometimes be
extremely comforting, but theycan be borderline abusive at
times, hence, know, why we wouldneed, math therapy.
Fact of the matter is that mathdoesn't give people trauma,
people give people trauma.
And I think about that a lot inthe classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:18):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:40):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, I've been wanting tointerview today's guest ever
since I saw him give a heartfeltand moving speech almost two
years ago about how mathliterally saved his life.
I know that sounds likehyperbole and I very much
overused the word literally, butthis time I mean it.
(01:01):
Sean Nank is a math educator whobelieves that the power of our
students stories is the mostvaluable tool that we can
harness in our math classrooms,and he draws from his own very
personal experience.
We chat about how to trulycultivate trust in a classroom
setting, how labeling folks asnot math people can be
traumatizing, and for real, howa fascination with mathematics
gave him a reason to live.
(01:23):
On that note, a heads up thatthis episode contains a lot of
laughs, but also of some seriousdiscussion of abuse and suicide.
Sean, thank you so much forcoming to the pod.
I, I normally don't do this tostart, but you're such a unique
individual.
I was wondering if you couldexplain to the guests what props
you brought with you for ourinterview.
Sean Nank (01:43):
Props.
Oh, I just brought sound props,and uh, the stuff in case I get
hungry.
Like, like you say something andI disagree, I'm just gonna do
this.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:55):
Okay.
Well, thank you so much forsharing.
I've never actually had a guestwho's brought props before.
And you know, this reminds me ofactually one of the reasons I
wanted to have you on thepodcast.
I think in 2022, I saw you atShadowCon, I'm going to get you
to explain what that is cause Inever even had heard of it.
And I was so taken with yourtalk because I couldn't, like,
(02:18):
decide if I liked you or, like,really didn't.
I couldn't place, like, myfeelings, my reaction, my very
visceral reaction to what wasgoing on with you.
And I thought, I was like, youknow, I really want to talk to
that guy more because I'm veryintrigued, but I'm also
intrigued by my own reaction.
And I don't mean it in a badway, but when I have a reaction
with me that sticks, I alwayswondered what it was that made
(02:39):
it so.
And like, you showing up withprops is not in the least
surprising me, but it againreminds me of the reason that I
wanted to have you on is becauseI genuinely want to know more
about you.
I have some questions about whatyou said on that fortuitous day
in 2022.
So should we start with thatmoment?
Sean Nank (02:56):
Sure.
I get it.
You, uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:58):
Well, and also
Sean Nank (02:58):
invited me on this to see if you'd like me or not.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:02):
Yes.
Sean Nank (03:02):
Ok, it's a test.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So there's no rubric for this.
Like this is neither formativenor summative assessment.
I just generally, I'm curious.
What do I notice?
What do I wonder about SeanNank?
Sean Nank (03:13):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:14):
So 2022, bring us back.
What is ShadowCon?
Sean Nank (03:17):
Uh, ShadowCon is dead, actually, they retired it.
2022 was the last time it everhappened.
The best way I can describeShadowCon, when I went to it in
the past, I always viewed it as,like, the TED Talk of the math
education world.
It was just so enigmatic, therewas so much energy.
The people had around about tenminutes to, uh, talk about
(03:42):
something that they'repassionate about.
The thing that I like the mostabout it in recent years though,
they used to pick people, but,uh, the last couple of years
they had people apply.
Which I think is really nicebecause it kind of evens the
playing field because then itturns less into who you know and
more into what you want to saythat you haven't ever been able
to say before.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:00):
Wasn't the whole point of ShadowCon though,
like from what I heard, wasn'tthe point almost to give voices
to those that wouldn't beselected by like the mainstream
conferences as a whole?
Sean Nank (04:13):
Um, well, there's, I think there's some people who
are heavy hitters who have beena part of ShadowCon.
I also think there's some peoplewho weren't as well known.
I mean, to be honest with you, Ihave no idea why they, accepted
my invitation.
I'm just happy that they did.
So, for me, I was like one ofthose, I'm not worthy, thank you
(04:35):
for the platform, I neverthought I would be able to do
anything like that in my life.
And then, that runs the gamutfrom that to people who have
been keynotes nationally.
So, they do a good mix of, ofpeople we might not have heard
of.
And people who we're going toknow the name.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:51):
So tell us, tell me again what your talk was
about.
I mean, I remember it veryclearly, but no one else has
necessarily heard it.
Would you be comfortable likesharing?
Sean Nank (05:00):
Yeah, my talk was mainly about, uh, getting
visceral reactions to see ifthey liked me or hated me.
And apparently you haven'tdecided yet, so I'll tell you it
again.
So, as briefly as possible, Iouted myself on the stage, uh,
and I told the whole world, Ijust told my daughter about an
hour or two before, nobody in mylife knew that I had OCD.
(05:22):
I was hiding it my entire life.
I did a really good job at it.
There's been a couple of peoplesince ShadowCon who were like,
oh, I totally saw but theydidn't see, they had no idea.
Part of it though was also Iwent into the aspect that the
OCD, the mathematics of OCD, itjust saved my life.
(05:43):
Because I was, I grew up in avery abusive environment.
And the story that I told inShadowCon was about one night in
particular when I was in middleschool, and my mother had at it
with the belt, and then myfather did as well.
And, uh, on this particularevening he let, because
(06:03):
everybody doubles up the beltwhen they start hitting you with
it, he accidentally let thebuckle go and it wrapped around,
hit me in the groin, and I wasdown for the count.
I couldn't get up.
And he wouldn't stop.
And he was honest.
He told me that he wasn't goingto stop until I got back up.
So, I believed him.
I don't know how, but I got backup.
(06:24):
As soon as I was on my feetagain, he stopped.
He left the room.
I fell to the ground.
Passed out.
And the next morning, I decidedthat I was done.
I decided that there was only afinite amount of pain that you
could take in this life, so Iwas going to take everything I
was going to have to go throughover the next few years in my
family, package it into onemoment, and I decided to jump in
(06:45):
front of a school bus while Iwas on the way to school.
The thing about the OCD, though,was it was, a, fall, and it was
in the Chicagoland area, sothere were a bunch of branches
on this one tree, and I startedOCDing the crap out of this
tree.
I started counting the branches,and then I started thinking,
well, I can't count the branchesbefore the next bus comes, So I
(07:05):
started thinking about fractalswithout even realizing what
fractals were, and I got sodistracted, so like my
dysfunctionality of OCDdistracted me from committing
suicide that day, because I had,I had fully planned on doing it.
And when the bus went by, I wasokay with it because I was just
engulfed in the mathematics of atree through my OCD.
(07:31):
So that's pretty much the gistof it.
And then the, the overarchingconsideration was letting people
know that that wasn't themathematics that I had ever
experienced in math classrooms.
K through 12 plus mathclassrooms.
I had some really bad mathteachers and I had some
amazingly wonderful mathteachers, but none of them
really taught the things that Iwas thinking about
(07:52):
mathematically outside of theclassroom.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (07:55):
Mm hmm.
Sean Nank (07:56):
also the aspect that mathematics classrooms can
sometimes be extremelycomforting, but they can be
borderline if not abusive attimes, uh, hence, you know, why
we would need, uh, math therapy.
But, I mean, overarchinglythinking about it, the simply
complex fact of the matter isthat math doesn't give people
trauma, people give peopletrauma.
(08:17):
And I think about that a lot inthe classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:19):
Wow, yeah.
Sean Nank (08:21):
But you were there.
What did you think?
Do you like me now?
Hate me?
Podcast over?
Vanessa Vakharia (08:26):
Well hold on, ok.
So I do love making jokes allthe time, but I want to just,
for a minute, acknowledge theseverity of your story and just
like your vulnerability insharing it and just say thank
you.
And also, I'm beyond sorry thatever happened to you and, um, I
yeah, that's horrible, butlet's, let's, I want, I also
(08:47):
have like a ton of questionsabout this.
The first question actuallybeing, did you know you had OCD?
Sean Nank (08:55):
Yeah, the first time I knew I
Vanessa Vakharia (08:56):
At the, in that moment it.
Sean Nank (08:57):
Uh, yes, I knew actually, I think around about,
I didn't know what it was, but Iknew something was different.
Around about second grade, andit was counting, counting the
colored tiles on the floor in myelementary school.
So it was a way, OCD for me wasa way to distract my mind, so I
(09:18):
didn't think about what couldpotentially happen when I went
home that evening.
It was an escape for me.
It was a way to occupy your mindso that you didn't worry about
other things.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:30):
So, I guess I'm thinking about this in so
many different ways, becauseyeah, this is a podcast about
math trauma and about maththerapy.
And I, I love what you said,like, that math doesn't cause
trauma, people cause trauma.
And I'm, I'm actually justletting that settle in right
now.
Because whenever, I talk aboutmath trauma, I talk about things
that could be traumatic forsomeone, and I'm kind of going
(09:50):
through my mind being like,wait, is he right?
And yeah, you're right.
It's always about people.
It's like, you know, there's alack of representation out
there, or someone tells you yousuck at math or you're being
compared to other, it isactually always being enacted by
a person, the experience thatyou're about to have.
But one of the things I alwaystalk about is how, um, being
diagnosed or undiagnosed withlike a learning difference or a
(10:10):
mental health issue can actuallybe really traumatic
mathematically.
Like, for example, let's say youare never diagnosed with ADHD.
You never get an access to thoseresources and you just think
like there's something wrongwith you.
And that kind of, that can be amath trauma as opposed to being
like, you know, you actually getdiagnosed, you get the
resources, you've got theaccommodations, like you take
(10:31):
some Ritalin if you need it, Idon't know, whatever.
So I'm thinking about OCD inthat way.
And like wondering if, you'respeaking about it in this very
like positive way as, you know,it saved your life in this way
that you could use it todistract from this really
horrible thing going on in yourlife.
How did that affect you inclass?
Did your teachers know you hadOCD?
Did it ever like affect yourperformance in a way that they
(10:53):
perceived negatively orpositively?
Like, how did it affect you inmath?
Sean Nank (10:56):
Hmm.
Actually, in math classes, itlent itself to more success than
anything else.
Because I was always, sothere's, there's different types
of OCD.
And one of the things that I dois, I do a lot of, counting, for
distraction.
So it's like counting on top ofcounting on top of counting.
(11:21):
So there's different layers andI'm always doing it.
So in a way, my whole life I hadbeen doing math in my head.
Um, so in that manner, it was,uh, it was a good thing.
The point in time where itwasn't, was when people would
misconstrue things.
(11:42):
So there's times, well even tothis day, where I'll be in
conversations, or when I was inthe classroom, when I would
start hyper focusing on, uh,different, uh, events, thinking
about bad things that wouldhappen.
Because the thing about me withmy OCD is, I'm not worried about
me, I'm worried about the peopleI love.
So it's kind of a matter of, ifI don't check the stove 17
(12:05):
times, then something bad isgoing to happen to my daughter
that day.
So, if I'm counting in theclassroom, to try to get that
cyclical reference of somethingbad that's going to happen that
I have no control over, then itlooks like I'm disengaged when
actually I'm just, I'm trying toget through those thoughts.
And a lot of people willactually, honestly, I'm looking
(12:27):
forward to me not having to lieto people anymore, by omission.
Because there's times, I wasjust out to dinner a little
while ago with a friend, beforethey knew I had OCD, and I was
looking in the distance andthere was something I had to
count.
And they're like, what are youlooking at?
Oh, I'm looking at this coolthing over here.
So I, and I felt really badbecause I was hiding it.
So I had to, I had to lie andnot tell them what I was really
(12:48):
looking at or what I was reallythinking or what I was really
doing in that moment, whichkinda sucks for the people who
are around me because they don'tknow, they don't know that part
of me.
They don't know why I'm doingwhat I'm doing.
And they don't know that it'snot a, it's not a reflection of
the conversation or of them orhow much I do or don't care
about them.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:07):
This reminds me of when we talk about
students and when we're talkingabout students as like, oh,
they're so distracted or they'reso unmotivated or they're lazy,
but really there's likesomething completely entirely
else going on with them.
And I mean, one thing I'venoticed about you just in our
conversations is that you're areally good listener and you're
really observant and you'recurious and you actually care
about the why of why someone issaying something or I mean, even
(13:30):
here, you're being so kind withme, saying you wondered why I
potentially had a visceralreaction to you, which I'm
realizing was a really badchoice of words and is not a
good look for me.
I didn't, I don't think, I don'tthink I use that word correctly.
Sean Nank (13:42):
I mean, I'm going to look all your other podcasts and
see if you attacked peoplesaying I'm either love you or
hate you, go.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:49):
Um, but my point is, though, so I'm
wondering if actually you haveany advice for teachers.
I know you do a lot of work withother educators and you, one of
the things you pride yourself onis really like allowing students
to share their voices and increating space for them to show
up in their authentic versionsof themselves.
How do you have dinner with afriend and not look at them
looking in the distance and justthink they're disengaged?
(14:12):
How do you watch a student whoseems like they're completely
not listening and see past thatand get to the root of what's
going on?
Sean Nank (14:19):
Um, as succinctly as possible, I never use these two
words, but I'm going to use itright now.
Shut up and ask.
The thing about it is whenpeople have disabilities and
there's exponential confoundingof, it's like in education and
especially in math we judgepeople all the time and there
(14:40):
are certain people who feel likethey belong and certain people
who don't.
So if you are not white, if youare not a male, if you have a
disability, those are threethings that could severely
affect you in a math classroomand it's exacerbated if you have
all three then we really need tofix the system because you
almost have no hope, the systemis designed against you.
(15:00):
I, I think, if I had to sayanything to teachers, it's
understand.
Cause like, so here's what astudent like me would tell you
if you cared to ask.
Or, no, strike that, not if youcared to ask, if you had the
time to ask.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:15):
Well, but cared too.
Sean Nank (15:17):
Yeah, that's true.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:18):
Sorry, I'm like, I don't want to talk over
you, but I think it's fair to belike, care to ask, have the time
to ask, have the courage to ask.
Sean Nank (15:26):
Have the comfort to ask.
One of the things I tellteachers is, uh, every single
teacher needs to go throughpsychological therapy.
Not because we're crazy forteaching, but because we had to
deal with our crap so that wecan be there and be ready and
not be triggered by whateveranybody else is going through.
Because like, if they, if theycared to ask me, I would tell
them something like, it's like,it's like I'm enveloped in a
(15:49):
darkness.
Like, kind of grasping, gaspingfor air, drowning in like, just
this sea of actions and intentthat I have really no control
over at all, until I remember tojust breathe.
And it takes time for certainpeople to be able to do that.
So it's a matter ofunderstanding and giving people
time.
I mean, I've had more than oneadministrator come into my
(16:12):
classroom and not like the waymy classroom is
Vanessa Vakharia (16:15):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (16:15):
because there's time in the classroom and I am
totally okay with a little bitof silence.
I'm totally okay with somebodytaking a little break.
We need that from time to time.
So I guess the best way I cansay it is how often do we really
stop, look at somebody, and askthem, How are you?
And then sit in that moment anddo nothing other than listen to
(16:36):
what they have to say.
Instead of asking it so we cantell them how we are, asking it
for a particular end result.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:44):
It's so interesting you say that because
on a personal note, since we'rehaving therapy together here, on
a personal note, I've been likenoticing over the past few
years, you know, there are somefriends I like don't see in
person, you know, I just likewe, because I just don't
socialize at all.
Um, but, but like, text, we textall the time.
But if were ever to go throughall of our texts, I could go
(17:06):
through texts for like, from sixmonths worth of conversations
and not see a single questionfrom them to me.
I can't even remember the lasttime, like, certain people have
been like, how are you?
Like, no, really, how are you?
Not just like,"oh my God, how'sit going?
I have the craziest story totell you".
And, and sorry I'm gonna back upand say that when I talk about
math therapy and I'm sharing itwith teachers, and in the book
(17:26):
that I have coming out, it's allabout like how to do these steps
of math therapy and one of thosesteps is helping students map
out their trauma, not by beinglike hey who hurt you, you know,
but by looking for signs and byactively listening and by asking
these questions.
And like a neighbor once said tome, kids will tell you what's
going on with them if you justobserve.
(17:48):
If you just actually activelylisten and observe, it's
actually not that hard.
It's not like you have to be atherapist.
It's not like you have to pryinformation out of them.
Like actually listening,actually asking those questions,
those spaces and breaks fortime, like you need those for
people to process and actuallybe able to tell you things in
the classroom.
Sean Nank (18:06):
Yeah, well there's, I don't know, there's always a
give and take in everyrelationship, right?
If we're teaching to the best ofour ability, then we're learning
just as much as our students arelearning.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:16):
Yes.
I love that.
Sean Nank (18:18):
You're reminding me too, like, when I got ready for
ShadowCon, they approved me, andthey did a really good job of
trying to get us ready, but thenthere came a point in time where
I thought they were gonna dropme.
Um, because my story could havebeen triggering for people and
part of it too was the aspectof, I didn't have a lot of math
(18:39):
in my story.
And I actually put, if you watchthe video, I say halfway
through, I go through some ofthe math and I say that's all
the math we're going to get.
Because we have too much math inmath classrooms.
We fill it with what we thinksometimes instead of just
stopping and listening to whatstudents think and asking them
questions.
And so the key is, I get a lotof pushback of there's not
(19:00):
enough time.
We feel, as human beings, likewe've gotten really good at
protecting ourselves, but in allhonesty, we're just trying to
fall into each other, to try tofeel like we belong, and just be
accepted for who we are.
So if you ask simple questions,you can learn more about
(19:20):
somebody in one minute thanlike, a year of therapy.
And if you have thatrelationship, if you have that
trust.
And it takes a solid two, threeweeks for students to trust me
because they've been burnedbefore.
And they've gone through thefirst week of class where, Yay!
We're gonna have fun! Let's dothese icebreakers! I love you!
You love me! Now sit down, shutup, and listen to math.
(19:43):
So they know that it's gonnaeventually change, it's just a
matter of making sure that itdoesn't and providing that
space.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:50):
I hear this narrative all the time of like,
we need to get to know ourstudents so that we can then
build math lessons around theirinterests.
Like, what are they watching?
Oh, we'll put like fivecharacters from Euphoria in this
math problem.
And it's like, okay, that's oneway.
But also when you find out whatthey care about, you realize
what their stakes are in yourclass.
Like, how do you raise thestakes of your content and of
your pedagogy to be like, thisstudent here who doesn't give a
(20:12):
shit about math, doesn't want togo into a STEM career and wants
to be a rock star, is stillgoing to care because they are
getting some sort of value frommy classroom.
Sean Nank (20:20):
Right.
Never underestimate theprofoundness of one human being
letting another human being knowthat you care, that you're
willing to listen.
Yeah.
And it's, it doesn't have to be,you need to have the
conversation before you have theconversation.
You need to have theconversation that's math
agnostic before you can have theconversation, you don't have to.
(20:44):
But it's a lot better, and it's,I mean,
Vanessa Vakharia (20:47):
Why?
Tell me why you think it's a lotbetter because I say it all the
time but I don't even know why.
Sean Nank (20:51):
Because you don't have to like somebody to be able
to learn from them, but it makesit a hell of a lot easier.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:57):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (20:58):
It's a, it's a matter of building the relationships
because it's all aboutrelationships.
And we tend to think thatmathematics is, well, it is
logical, but we think it'snature's language and it's not.
It's a human being's best guessat nature's language.
It is not nature's language.
Okay.
So here's the deal, there's ahuge push to rehumanizing
mathematics right now.
(21:19):
And I think every time
Vanessa Vakharia (21:20):
But what that mean?
Oh Sorry.
Oh god, Sean.
Okay, go.
Sean Nank (21:25):
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (21:25):
I'm the worst interviewer right now.
Sean Nank (21:27):
The biggest thing I can tell people is there's, um,
we don't need to rehumanizemath.
We need to just stopdehumanizing it.
If mathematics is our languageas human beings, our way of
making sense of the world, andthat's the world we live in, if
we use it on nature, if we useit with people, it's still our
language.
And it should be everybody'slanguage, that's part of the
(21:48):
problem, but it's inherent.
So when people look atmathematics and say, we need to
rehumanize it, I said, what thehell did you do to it in the
first place to dehumanize it?
Just go back to the way it wasbefore.
It's kind of like a Deweyanaspect.
Um, John Dewey.
As soon as we startedsegregating the, the subject
matters, we also startedsegregating the point behind the
(22:09):
subject matter.
So we didn't just make thePythagorean theorem because we
had nothing better to do on asunny afternoon.
There was a reason why weinvented math, why we discovered
it, why we, whatever way youwant to phrase it.
So it's partially going back tothose reasons so that we can
connect them.
And it's, it's also part of thestorytelling aspect too, but I'd
(22:29):
like to say I love storytelling,but I don't like it when, when
people just tell the stories ofmathematicians.
There needs to be some gatewayso that we can bring it into
what it means for us in thepresent moment.
And by the way, it's okay to saythat certain subsets of math
mean nothing to me.
There's so many branches ofmathematics that we force
people.
So I just told my geometryclasses yesterday that most
(22:53):
people don't like geometry whenthey
Vanessa Vakharia (22:54):
Oh my God, I don't like geometry.
That's me.
Sean Nank (22:57):
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:58):
No, thank you!
Sean Nank (22:59):
It's, not the math that we've ever seen before.
Like K through ninth grade oreighth grade, we get this
algebra.
We get this certain subset ofmathematics, and we skip the
stats, we skip the numbertheory, we skip the geometry,
and then all of a sudden there'ssomething that we've never seen
before.
And I wonder how many people, ifthey were exposed to different
branches of mathematics earlyon, kindergarten, first, second,
third grade, would find the typeof mathematics they love.
(23:22):
Because let's be honest, there'ssome math, so you just said you
didn't like geometry as much.
I'm sure there's some math thatyou love doing, and some that
you don't.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:30):
Yeah.
Like give me some algebra, youknow, that's like some juicy
shit, but like, ugh, shapes,like I just don't want to.
Sean Nank (23:37):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:38):
This is the other thing.
We haven't even talked aboutthis yet, but you talked about
how you love storytelling.
But I have to say, as soon asyou said humanizing mathematics,
I am not kidding, I, I for real,no joke, had a visceral
reaction.
I'm just going to say it soundspretentious because no one ever
defines it and so I reallyappreciate us talking about
(23:58):
this, but I actually need you togo back for a second What do you
mean when you say, let's go backto the way it was when we
invented it?
Sean Nank (24:07):
Okay, so, I'll not talk about math, so we can talk
about math.
Have you ever heard a song thatreally resonates with you?
Vanessa Vakharia (24:15):
Yes.
Sean Nank (24:16):
Okay, so you don't need to know the meaning behind
the lyrics from the person whowrote them in order to be able
to let that, like, really touchyour soul and be one of your
favorite songs ever.
But if you know the origin, andif you know their meaning, then
it'll help you to interpret yourreaction, and it'll help you to
(24:36):
make meaning of that song.
It just brings more richness.
So I would say the way that wehumanize math is to just put it
out there and ask people whatthey think about it.
What does this mean to you, whatdo these data mean to you?
What, you know, just give themthe numbers, give them the
concepts, start talkingmathematically and logically,
(24:56):
because when you do that, youopen up the door for them to be
able to interpret what it meansto them.
So you, you can go back and youcan go to the origin of it, but
it's only if it makes theirmeaning richer, because it's not
about the people who created themath in the first place, and
it's not about us.
It's about them.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:14):
So, what do other people mean when they say
humanizing mathematics?
Do they mean this?
Sean Nank (25:21):
In all honesty, and I'm trying to over generalize
here, I think what people sayabout humanizing mathematics is
creating mathematical problemsthat are culturally proficient
and applicable to every aspectof our society.
But I'm going to push back onthat and say, none of us will
ever be able to do that unlesswe listen to our students.
So there's the best minds in theworld, in my opinion, who talk
(25:44):
about humanizing mathematics,and then they push out problems,
That are low key sexist, andthey don't even see it because
that's not on their radar, orthey're into feminism And I am
like 100 percent totally intofeminism But then if you have
that lens you're gonna missdifferent aspects of different
(26:06):
people who have been oppressedSo like where I teach right now,
it's the highest population ofSamoas in the entire nation.
I don't think anybody's gonnacreate a curriculum based on the
Samoan culture But what I can doin the classroom is never assume
what math means to them, whattheir culture is, but what I can
do as a teacher is I can listen.
(26:27):
So here's the deal.
I don't care if somebody cansolve an advanced calculus
problem.
I care if a K 12 teacher canunderstand the mathematics
enough to listen to a studentand be able to bring that
mathematics into their life.
Which is one of the reasons whyone of the favorite things, I'm
going to start it up next weekin, uh, in my high school
classes, and I'm going to do itwith my university students too
(26:48):
is a passion project, where theproject is all about shooting a
two minute video where theygroup together in groups of
three over a common passion andtry to find the mathematics
inherent in their passion.
And that's pretty much what weneed to do with mathematics, um,
in our classroom.
What does this mean to you?
And it is not looking atsomebody thinking, Oh, so you
(27:11):
are this type of person whopresents as this type of way.
So you're not going to like thissubject.
Or I mean, even if we make itagnostic, people think we make
it agnostic and there's stilljudgment.
What do we do the first time wedo stats?
We bring out the playing cards.
About a quarter of my studentshave never seen a playing card
in their entire life and theyhave no idea what
Vanessa Vakharia (27:27):
Playing cards are over, they're like 1999,
like no one uses cards, we havephones.
Sean Nank (27:32):
Yeah, but it's still in the math curricula
everywhere.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:35):
Yeah, but like this is a huge problem even with
our data management and finitecurriculum, like as soon as
there's questions about cardslike and it's like and how many
suits are there and kids arelike what the fuck are you
talking about?
Sean Nank (27:46):
Exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:47):
Okay, so you have mentioned storytelling a
few times and I want to like wehave to talk about your book
that you have coming out, calledEmpathetic Storytelling.
Am I correct?
Sean Nank (27:57):
Empathetic Storytelling, Igniting Change in
Education.
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:01):
And so we're going to talk about the book in
a sec, but you've brought upstorytelling a few times during
this conversation and I kind offeel like it's really a thread
that's woven through becauseyou've told me a lot about your
math story in a way, right?
Like the way that OCD has playedinto your relationship with math
and that has played into yourrelationship with yourself and
how important it is for us tolisten to our students' stories.
(28:23):
And even when we're talkingabout building trust, how
storytelling and beingvulnerable is such a way for us
at the classroom to tell ourstories and be vulnerable, build
trust in our students.
There's just so much there.
But one thing I love that yousaid is that we can't just be
telling stories, telling storiesdoesn't mean like, let me tell
you a story about Archimedes andlike what he invented, you know,
so, tell me more about that.
(28:45):
Like, you're about to release anentire book on storytelling,
what are the stories and how arethey important to helping people
form better relationships withmath?
Sean Nank (28:53):
Yeah, so the book and the stories in there are, um, it
started as a 10 minute talk thatturned into a one hour
conference presentation, thatthen turned into an article that
when I went to submit it, uh,there was a call for a book, uh,
about critical storytelling.
And I thought, ooh, I can spenda few minutes writing a couple
(29:14):
of pages and get rejected.
So, I submitted it and theyaccepted the book.
And the premise of it was, uh,that critical storytelling is,
critical.
You're not going to buildrelationships by being critical.
We need to be critical so we canbreak down the substructures of
the educational experience,especially in epistemologically
privileged positions that wedon't hold.
(29:36):
But what we really need to do ishave empathetic storytelling.
What that means is, we don'twant to tell stories just so
that we're telling stories.
We want to, and you've heardabout the mirror and the window
and the doors, and that'slovely, but in the book I say we
need to go one step farther, andwe need to make our stories
empathetic gateways.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:56):
Tell people, like, some people might not know
about the windows and themirrors and the doors.
Sean Nank (30:01):
Oh, so the window's is when you tell a story, it
provides a window as areflection into when you tell
the story, the way you tell thestory, if you listen to how
you're doing it, you'll learn alot about yourself.
The mirror is, you know,reflecting back on you, the
window is letting somebody peerin.
What's even better is lettingsomebody step through a door
into the world of yourmathematical story.
What I say is even better thanthat is letting them step
(30:22):
through that door, sitting atthe table, and conversing in a
way that it becomes both of yourstory, so that you're
symbiotically sharing detailsabout your life, getting to know
each other, and connecting on anempathetic level.
So the book, um, one of thethings I told the publishers was
if I'm going to start talkingabout empathetic storytelling,
you don't want a book from somestraight white guy.
(30:43):
I need to open it up.
So we open it up to the world toanybody in the educational
community from, you just thinkof anybody who has any
interactions with education atall from students to parents to
teachers to, anybody,administration, higher ed, pre
K, whatever.
And then we pitched it based onfour themes and the first theme
is, uh, racism, sexism, any ofthe isms, ableism.
(31:07):
The second one is, uh, belongingand identity.
The third is caring andrelationships.
And the fourth one is bullying.
And when I got the stories backfrom these people, I thought I
would be able to edit two orthree stories or approve or deny
three or four stories a day, butthey were extremely powerful.
And I had to take time inbetween each one because we had
stories of, oh, black elf on theshelf, being locked in a closet
(31:31):
at school because you couldn'tread, the first time somebody
decided as a teacher to notchemically straighten their hair
and the result of the studentsand the adults.
And I'm going to tell you rightnow, the adults are meaner than
the students in education.
The reaction that they had.
ADHD, adults bullying, dyslexia,um, being Palestinian on
September 11th, and then now,what that means for people.
(31:53):
And the thing that I liked themost about the book was they
were able to tell their story,but then I required them to have
a, uh, you have to choose, wherethey went into the reasons why
they chose to do what they didin the moment and what they
would do differently now.
And also a reflection onimplicit and explicit biases.
And when I talked to to thecontributors, it was helping
(32:14):
them to lean more into theirbiases than others.
Because if we tell stories, it'spartially so people get to know
us, but they're beautiful waysof getting to know ourselves.
Because every time you tell astory, it's slightly different
because the way the meaning wemake of stories, especially from
years ago, changes because wechange.
So I think there's a wonderfulway that we can use stories
(32:36):
outside of the classroom withadults, but inside the classroom
as well, to create that bond.
So anytime I talk about anystory in the classroom, it's so
I can get them talking abouttheir story.
It's a gateway, so that they cantalk, and they can trust, and I
can get to know them.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
Well, that's amazing and it's, it's such a
perfect tie in because thefourth step of math therapy,
like I go through steps of whatteachers need to do to heal like
math trauma in their classroom,and the fourth one is all about
having students write out theirmath stories and then rewrite
them, rewrite them with a newperspective, like not changing
the facts like you said, butlike bringing new light to them.
(33:13):
Because our words and ourthoughts define our reality, you
know, as much as like theobjective events that happen.
So I think that's really, reallycool.
And, I appreciate you sharingthat.
I want to talk so much moreabout it, but we are out of
time.
We got to go and I have to askyou the two final questions that
I ask everyone.
Before I do that, is thereanything you haven't talked
(33:33):
about that you want to talkabout?
Like, is there anything I didn'task?
Like, I asked you the weirdestshit.
So like, is there anything thatyou're like, well, I really
wanted to talk about this?
Sean Nank (33:40):
Oh, yeah, there was a ton of things I really wanted to
talk about, but I'm gonna dothat on the next podcast, the
Therapy After Math Therapypodcast, to realize what the
visceral reaction was.
So, I'm just gonna save it forthat person.
Maybe when I come on, they'llask me if I like them, something
like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:57):
Good luck, good luck to that person.
Okay, so the two things I haveto ask you, the first is what,
if there is one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Sean Nank (34:09):
So I'm thinking of, since we just got done talking
about the book, I'm thinking oflike the last couple of
sentences in the book as soon asyou say that, which goes
something like, the key toworking together lies in
listening to and learning fromand finding the value in
everybody's story.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:26):
Hmm.
Sean Nank (34:27):
And I think that maybe then we'll realize that
we're all connected through oneshared story that's intricately
woven together in a diversetapestry with the delicate
thread of our humanity.
So, I think if I had one thing,I would encourage adults to just
stop and listen, so thatstudents can be afforded the
(34:50):
same thing.
And it's, it's funny when mydaughter graduated from high
school, I told her to, uh, takerisks, be yourself, and, uh,
don't worry about what the wrongpeople think because then you're
not giving the right people achance to know who you really
are.
Uh, I think there's a lot oftimes that we don't let people
be who they are.
And honestly, there's times,like right now, I have an
(35:12):
administrator who really doesn'twant me to be who I am and
doesn't want me to let mystudents be who they are.
But I need to protect them and Ineed to let that happen in our
classrooms.
Because if we don't, then, Imean, what's it all for?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:27):
Wow.
And finally, what would you sayto someone who has heard all of
this wonderful stuff and justsays, but Sean, I am not a math
person.
Sean Nank (35:37):
Thank God you're not a math person because we treat
people like shit in mathclassrooms more often than not.
If you were a math person, thatwould mean that you would have
to endure the abuse that somepeople go through in math.
You're not a math person notbecause of the math.
You're not a math person becauseyou had that one incident with
that one person who probablyshould have stayed home that day
(36:00):
because they were having a badday and they let you know that
you're not one.
Um, as, viscerally succinctly aspossible as I could put it, I
think that's my answer, um,because I mean, yeah, we are all
math people, but I, I mean, I,given certain teachers in
certain classrooms, I reallywant to be a math person, but
given the way math is portrayedin other classrooms, I don't
(36:21):
want to have anything to do withit.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:24):
Well, fuck, this is great.
Um, in case you're wonderingwhat the verdict is, I like you,
now.
More than I did 46 minutes ago.
But seriously, thank you somuch.
Thank you for sharing yourstories.
Thank you.
Like, honestly, you've sharedsome really meaningful,
important stuff, and I'm soexcited that everyone can hear
and learn from you.
And I, I honestly do want tothank you because you've shared
(36:46):
some stuff that I assume is, isprobably likely difficult to
share.
And I know that people listeningwill really gain something from
it, so.
Sean Nank (36:54):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:54):
Thank you so much!
Sean Nank (36:55):
And I want to stick around because now I have
questions for you and for Davidas well.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:58):
Great.
Okay.
Yeah, so we'll do your podcastas soon as this one's over.
All right.
Thank you so much I have to saybye or David will kill me.
So bye.
Sean Nank (37:07):
Bye.
David Kochberg (37:07):
But he still has so many snacks to to open up!
Vanessa Vakharia (37:15):
Okay, so how are we feeling after all of
that?
I honestly had to spend a lot oftime in stillness in order to
process so much of what Seansaid, and I'm still thinking
about it now.
I think the most valuabletakeaway for me is that
connecting with our studentsisn't just about figuring out
what they're interested in sothat we can target curriculum
and content at them, but insteadit's about truly understanding
who they are as entire peopleand how the stories they bring
(37:37):
into our classrooms shape themas learners.
True connection is where healingmath trauma happens.
True connection is how we canhelp our students really, truly
build meaningful relationshipswith math, and I'm grateful to
Sean for sharing his story withus all.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(37:59):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(38:21):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
Fuck.
You were being so noisy!
Sean Nank (38:40):
Was I?
Vanessa Vakharia (38:40):
You know, you might have OD OCD, but I have
ADHD and it's so distracting
Sean Nank (38:44):
Oh I could kind of tell that yeah, I wasn't gonna
assume but
Vanessa Vakharia (38:48):
This episode just be man with OCD a woman
with ADHD walk into podcast.
Sean Nank (38:55):
I can't hear you.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:55):
Stop! And I can't even see you.
It's so annoying.
I can't see you.
All I can hear are these weirdfucking noises.
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