September 5, 2024 • 36 mins
HUGE news - Math Therapy is now a book! Vanessa has taken everything she's learned in her career helping students overcome math trauma, and all the insights from the 6 seasons of this podcast, and formulated a 5-step process to bring math therapy into classrooms and help all students develop a better relationship with math.
To celebrate, Math Therapy producer David Kochberg turned the mic around and interviewed Vanessa about how Math Therapy started in the first place, what gives her hope about the future of math education, and how she really feels about the provocative term "edu celeb"...
Show notes:
- Math Therapy the book is out now - buy from Corwin Press or Amazon
- S3E09: I’m not a math person, don’t @ me w/ Bex
- Vanessa's master's thesis "Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:07):
I don't like being interviewed.
it's just so much energy toanswer all those questions.
David Kochberg (00:12):
Well, that's, we're off to a great start
already.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:16):
K, go.
David Kochberg (00:17):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode
of math therapy.
I am your host, David Kochberg,and today I'm interviewing the
normal host of Math Therapy,Vanessa Vakharia AKA The Math
Guru.
And, uh, why am I talking toyou?
(00:38):
Why am I hosting today?
You rightfully ask?
Well, Vanessa happens to haveamalgamated her life's work into
a book.
What is that book titled?
It's called Math Therapy.
(00:58):
So, uh, so you know what wethought here, the Math Therapy
team of the two of us, was wethought, you know, why don't we
flip the mic around actuallywe're using a bi-directional
mic.
And, why don't I grill The MathGuru herself, is this coming out
(01:19):
when the book is out, is thebook out?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:21):
Yes.
David Kochberg (01:22):
The book is out.
So we want to talk about thebook.
So, um, was that a good, wasthat a good intro?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:27):
That was so long.
David Kochberg (01:29):
Oh, all right.
Well maybe I'll edit some out.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:31):
I don't know if anyone's still listening.
All right.
David Kochberg (01:33):
So I want to start with the real hard hitting
journalism.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:39):
Because that's what this podcast is if
anything, people come here forthe hard hitting journalism.
David Kochberg (01:43):
Yes.
So what I want to,
Vanessa Vakharia (01:45):
I'd like to make this 20 minutes and we're
at three.
David Kochberg (01:48):
I am the host.
And you are my guest.
So you interviewed me.
Is that coming out, has thatbeen out?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:59):
That's going to be after this one, David.
David Kochberg (02:00):
So in the next one, right, so the next
interview, since you didn't askme this, I would like to start
by asking you.
What do you think most annoys meabout producing you.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:13):
Okay.
Wow.
I thought this is going to beabout the book.
David Kochberg (02:17):
You think this is some puff piece?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Okay.
What do I think annoys you mostabout working with me?
Fuck, where to start.
I actually do think I know whatit is.
And I think it's that I'm aGemini and you're a Taurus.
And so I want to do everythingreally, really fast.
And you want to take your timeand do it.
So I think it actually reallyannoys you when I try to speed
(02:40):
through things like say, I wantto make this episode 20 minutes
and we're already at three orwhatever, just like put on the
mic and just record when you'retrying to like make, you know,
do quality control.
I think it's my speed and lackof attention to, my attention
deficit?
Am I right?
David Kochberg (03:00):
Great answer.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:01):
Do you have an answer as to what annoys you
most that I,
David Kochberg (03:03):
We don't have time for that.
But great answer and highlyaccurate.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:07):
Okay.
David Kochberg (03:07):
Thank you for your vulnerability.
All right.
So extremely briefly, how didMath Therapy start and how did
it evolve into what is destinedto be a best selling book?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:20):
It's really hard when you ask a question
like that and preface it withvery briefly.
David Kochberg (03:24):
You are the one who said you want this over with
already! Fine take as much timeas you want!
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay, how did Math Therapy start?
Okay.
So in brief, I mean, first ofall, I've been teaching math
forever and ever.
I've been tutoring math for, 20years now.
and I have always been doingmath therapy with students
without having an official namefor it.
And by that I mean, I havealways been very, very invested
in helping students build betterrelationships with math.
(03:53):
Through healing underlying mathtrauma.
So really focused on theemotional component of math
learning.
Now that being said, somehowsomewhere along the way, I
started doing a lot of pressabout math anxiety and talking
to news outlets about mathteaching.
And one day, me and my PR personat the time, Sabina, who is the
original creator of thispodcast, we were at Global
(04:15):
Television and I was doing aninterview as normal and I was on
air with this guy, the host,this man.
And basically anytime I go onair with a host, and this is so
the stereotype about journalism,but it's true, I go on and the
camera starts rolling and thehost will start reading from
their script.
"And here with me right now isVanessa Vakharia, the Math Guru.
(04:38):
Oh my God".
And then they'll start goinginto a math trauma response.
Like for real, they'll be like,"oh my God math.
Oh, I can't believe we'retalking about math.
I hated math".
But this time was different.
Because this particular hostwent one step further.
And he said,"I hated math somuch in school, and that's why I
became a journalist".
That's normal, they all saythat.
(05:00):
Then he said,"I'm so bad atmath.
I need my toes to count to 20".
On live television, nationaltelevision across Canada, takes
off his shoe, takes off hissock, and then proceeds to count
to 20 on his bare feet on TV.
And I, I was stunned.
(05:20):
I thought to myself, what theactual fuck, but number two, I
thought, I can't believe you'reso comfortable on air just
saying to millions of Canadiansthat you're so bad at uh, at
math that, you can't count to20.
Because that's not, we knowthat's not true, he can
obviously count to 20 withouthis toes.
And it was just thatreinforcement of that myth, you
know, of that idea that we'recomfortable bragging and about
(05:42):
not being good at math, butobviously he was so traumatized
that like, you would just dothat.
It was just crazy.
Anyways.
I left, and Sabina looked at meand she said, oh my God, these
people need math therapy.
And I was like, oh my God.
And then the podcast was born.
So that's how the podcaststarted.
And briefly it started.
If you, if you've been a longtime listener, first time
(06:02):
caller.
Uh, sorry.
David Kochberg (06:04):
Still don't know how to use that, do you.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:07):
Sorry, Zak.
Um, if you've been a longtimelistener, you'll know that in
the first few seasons, Iactually interviewed people with
math trauma.
So I was interviewing people whowere anxious around math and had
bad experiences with math andslowly that morphed into talking
to people in math, people wholiked math about math anxiety
and about what they thought ledto it.
And then that morphed into itscurrent state, which is really
(06:28):
talking to educators about allthe work that surrounds the hard
work of healing math trauma.
Student centered practices,representation, equity,
problem-solving, productivestruggle, and just realizing
what a village it takes to healmath trauma.
So then from there.
I started doing professionaldevelopment on it because there
was this real need, and, youknow, I was getting all these
emails from teachers, listeningto the podcast, being like, how
(06:51):
do I use this information in myclassroom?
So I put together a five stepprocess based on what the work
I've been doing with studentsfor 20 years, the steps I
actually go through on how toidentify math trauma, prevent
it, heal it, rewrite students'math stories, measure their
progress in a way that isn'tjust reliant on grades.
And then I wrote a book.
David Kochberg (07:11):
Great job
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
That wasn't bad, actually,
David Kochberg (07:14):
I wouldn't call it brief, but
Vanessa Vakharia (07:16):
It took six minutes.
David Kochberg (07:16):
You had to cover a lot.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:17):
I had to cover a lot.
David Kochberg (07:18):
And how are, at this very moment, the book is
not out, but it's coming out,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:24):
David!
David Kochberg (07:24):
When we're talking about, because you can't
put yourself into the future.
I mean right now at this, fine,pulling back the curtain on how
a podcast gets made.
We're recording this in advance.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:34):
Fine.
David Kochberg (07:34):
So how do you feel right now at this moment?
Are you nervous?
Are you excited or, um, in apanic, or what do you, what are
your feelings about the bookcoming out?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:44):
I'm not in a panic.
I will say like, I'm proud.
Because I have, you know, wetalk about math trauma, I have
real writing trauma.
I mean, I won't go too in depthinto it, but I remember like, to
me, the idea of writing an essayor writing a cohesive story was
the most stressful thing for mein high school.
(08:05):
I remember we would have Englishexams and you hand wrote them,
like we hand write exams, youdon't have a computer or
anything.
Also, it was the early twothousands.
Anyways.
I would sit there and there'dalways be the essay question on
the exam.
And in my mind, I would be like,if I just can avoid writing this
essay question, maybe it'll likedisappear.
So I would answer all the otherquestions on the exam.
(08:26):
And I'd wait and I'd wait.
And then when I'd have likeeight minutes left in the exam,
I'd be like, fuck, I've got todo this essay question.
And I'd always just completelybomb it because I couldn't, I
mean, eight minutes, you can'twrite an essay in eight minutes
and I just, I hated it, it, justeven thinking about it stresses
me out.
And then that really culminatedwhen I did my master's degree, I
remember the reason I didn'twant to do it is I knew I would
have to write a master's thesis,but I did it anyway.
(08:49):
And my writing of my master'sthesis, which by the way, it's
called Imagining a World WhereParis Hilton Loves Math, and I
was so excited about it, but theprocess of writing it nearly
destroyed me.
Like I'm not, I won't get intothe nitty gritty, but like my
mental health went down thedrain.
It was so horrible.
It was, oh my God.
Just even the research and that,them being so, so pedantic and
(09:10):
not being, I remember there wasa whole fuss because I used the
word adolescent instead ofteenager.
And literally because of thatword, I had to do a whole extra
semester.
I can't.
And I'm sorry, this isn't makingsense, but I remember it was
like
David Kochberg (09:25):
But the trauma's coming through.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:26):
Yeah.
It was, it was horrible.
It was just like the nitpickingover every single word and the
punctuation and the dah, dah,dah.
And I was just like, I.
It was, it was a lot.
So when it came time to writethis book, I was really excited
about, I wanted to createsomething for educators to use.
Like I wanted, I.
I really wanted to do it.
But I was really scared.
I was like, I really hope thattrauma doesn't come back.
(09:48):
I hope I don't freeze.
Cause that's what would happen.
And I
David Kochberg (09:51):
Just the task of writing?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:52):
The task of, of putting, this is why I have a
podcast is because I like tojust blah.
You know, like it's, it's hardto think of story through from
beginning to end and plan it outand make it make sense and, and
cover all the important points.
That idea of making somethingcohesive and concise is so
stressful to me.
(10:13):
And I was just, I had the besteditor.
I'm, I, I'm actually gettingemotional.
So Debbie, if you're listening,I had the best editor at Corwin,
Debbie Hardin, who just got me.
She got it.
She got, she was like, justwrite stuff down, let it flow
and I'll edit it, which is howmy relationship with you works.
(10:36):
But I will say this.
It's not like I just gave her abunch of garbage and she edited.
Okay.
That's not what happened.
David Kochberg (10:40):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:41):
The fact that she said that in the first
place, allowed me to unlock, um,It's not like I'm a bad writer
or a storyteller, honestly.
Like I'm a bit all over theplace.
Fine.
And I need some spit shining aswe all know.
But, but it allowed, knowing Ididn't have to give her a
perfect finished product, itunlocked at all.
(11:02):
And I was able to just sit andwrite and let the stuff come
out.
Just knowing someone was goingto look it over and, and fix it
up if it needed to, or makesuggestions or I've, just not
knowledge like unlocked.
And actually, this is so funnywe're talking about this now
because I'm like, this I feelis, it's the same thing as when
I say when students know thatthe answer isn't the goal
they're able to actually tacklethe problem.
(11:23):
And that's what it was because Iknew that a finished product
wasn't the goal.
The goal was just to get somestuff out there and to start, it
just made the writing process somuch less stressful and I really
enjoyed it and we, it was just,anyways, I just, Debbie is, I
can't thank her enough.
What was the question?
Oh, how do I feel now?
So my point is, my point isafter all that, I'm actually
(11:43):
proud that I wrote this bookbecause I thought it was
something I might never be ableto do.
Because I was like, I was sotraumatized by my master's
thesis.
I don't know that I ever wantedto, I always thought if I wrote
a book, I'll just get you toghost write it right?
That's always been my plan.
I'll just say a bunch of shitand you'll write it up for me.
So the fact that I wrote it out,um, and did it, so I'm proud.
That's number one.
David Kochberg (12:02):
Good.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:02):
And I'm excited because I know the
reactions I got to, like when Italk to teachers and the
professional development, and somany teachers are writing,
emailing me saying they're usingall my stuff in their
classrooms, now I'm going tohave something really cohesive
and concrete to give them withlike, you know, in an hour
professional development,there's only so much you can
talk about.
This, like goes so into it.
It really shows them how to domath therapy, how to turn their
classrooms into a math therapyclassroom.
(12:24):
So I'm excited.
And then also, obviously a partof me is like, is anyone going
to read this book?
So there's, there's that part,but I've, I mean, there's no
point in thinking about that.
I think it's funny, like intoday's world or you get so
stuck on the, like, and now Ihave to promote this thing.
I'm like, I don't want to getinto that really.
I just want to.
David Kochberg (12:43):
Even though you just filmed 20 hours of content.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:46):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (12:47):
But yes, I know
Vanessa Vakharia (12:48):
I'm trying to do it out of excitement.
Like I'm, so I'm excited.
I'm not panicked.
I'm just like, oh, I hope peoplebuy it and like it I guess.
But I'm excited to like, it's,it's pretty cool that this all
came from my own math traumawhen I was in school.
And now.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (13:09):
That's great.
That's, I'm glad to hear thatyou're proud and excited and it
makes sense to be nervous.
And the way you wrapped it up interms of the roots of it, I was
thinking about that idea of thewounded healer.
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:24):
Because Chiron is the asteroid that represents
the wounded healer in a birthchart.
David Kochberg (13:31):
Not necessarily where I was going with it.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:33):
But I just want to say mine is in my 12th
house, which is all about thesubconscious, which means it is
like my thing in this life to bea wound, like the wounded
healing for me comes from likethe subconscious, which has past
trauma.
And I heal through healing otherpeople's subconsciouses.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (13:52):
Can't resist taking over, taking control.
It's alright.
Yeah.
We're like two control freaks,but in very opposing ways.
But, yeah.
Okay.
Sure.
What was I going to say?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:01):
I don't know.
David Kochberg (14:01):
I've lost my train of thought.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:02):
That's a hard thing with the podcast is when
the, when the guests throws youoff course, you've gotta be able
to either keep going with it.
David Kochberg (14:09):
And you are a seasoned professional, whereas
this is my first, my first guesthosting.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:13):
You're doing really great.
Actually you're getting greatinfo to me, I can't believe I've
been talking.
David Kochberg (14:16):
I love how before this, you were like, you
do all the talking.
I don't want to talk at all.
And it's like, you're the guest.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:21):
Next question.
David Kochberg (14:23):
Uh, no, I do, I was going to say that I do think
that that is what makes, I meansure, social media and creating
content and stuff can alwaysfeel kind of artificial, cause
you have to, there is anartifice to creating stuff for
promoting, but you have to dothat, that's part of it.
But I think overall, especiallyin the podcast, because of the
way you talk to people, yourauthenticity comes through and
(14:46):
it's clear that you really careabout this stuff.
And it's, it's common thatpeople get into something
because they feel connected toit emotionally and empathy comes
from having gone throughsomething similar to the people
that you're empathizing with.
And so, thank you for sharingall of that backstory because I
think it is a really interestingcontext.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
Thank you.
And that's why I always say thatmath teachers with their own
math trauma are some of the mostpowerful teachers because they
can empathize with theirstudents.
David Kochberg (15:16):
Agreed.
I also, the producer in me can'tstop thinking that I, I'm
worried your voice is quieterthan mine because you're further
from the mic than me, but Idon't know.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:25):
But I'm louder than you.
David Kochberg (15:26):
You normally are, but I find in this, for
some reason you being the guest,you're like a lot more,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:30):
All right
David Kochberg (15:31):
reserved.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:32):
I'm not being reserved at all.
David Kochberg (15:33):
Don't hit the table, please.
Uh, all right, moving rightalong.
So you've interviewed some ofthe biggest names in math
education.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:40):
Oh!
David Kochberg (15:41):
From Jo Boaler to Peter Liljedahl to the
creators of the NetflixChristmas STEM movie, Jingle
Jangle, all of whom I now knoweverything about.
Uh, so what do you think
Vanessa Vakharia (15:53):
Jo Boaler actually wrote the forward to my
book.
Actually, everyone should knowthat.
David Kochberg (15:56):
Facts, facts, facts.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:57):
She's the best.
David Kochberg (15:58):
What do you think young Vanessa fresh out of
teacher's college would thinkabout where you have ended up in
education?
Vanessa Vakharia (16:06):
Wow.
Well, I would say that youngVanessa who was failing math
would probably be like, what theactual fuck.
I mean, I always tell mystudents who are, who are
stressed out about their futuresbeing like, I don't know what I
want to do, I'm always like, doyou think when I was 16, I was
like, I'm going to go into matheducation and talk to everyone
(16:26):
about math trauma.
Like sometimes you can't planthis stuff.
I think young Vanessa would belike, yeah right, that's the
weirdest thing I've ever heard.
Like number one.
But thinking of me in teacherscollege, you know, I don't know
that the young Vanessa would beso surprised.
I've always had a thirst forfame.
You know,
David Kochberg (16:50):
Okay, well, this is going to come as a shock to
nobody.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:53):
I've always wanted to be kind of famous, not
that I am famous, but I thinklike being like, oh, if you were
going to tell young Vanessa andteacher's college, you know what
you're going to end up doingwith your teaching, you're going
to end up, uh, ranting on everypublic platform you possibly can
about teaching math, she'd belike, Yeah, that checks out.
Like anything for a buck.
David Kochberg (17:15):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:15):
Actually I make no money off of any of this
ranting.
Our podcast is not sponsored,neither is my social media
content, but you know what Imean.
David Kochberg (17:22):
Growth mindset.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:23):
Should you delete this maybe?
David Kochberg (17:25):
No, because it segues great into one of my
other questions.
I was going to save it tilllater on, but we're just going
to go straight to it.
So, there's been a lot ofdiscussion about the perils and
dangers of math education beingtaken over by quote unquote, edu
celebs.
Do you think now is the besttime to be pivoting so hard into
(17:46):
a career as an edu celeb.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:54):
Oh, my God.
Let me start with this.
Everyone loves to hate acelebrity.
Okay.
Everyone loves to hate acelebrity.
Here's what I've always thoughtabout fame.
The coolest part about fame isthat people listen to you.
I remember when I wrote mymaster's thesis, by the way.
I pitched this to the Universityof British Columbia, my thing
(18:16):
was called Imagining a WorldWhere Paris Hilton Loves Math,
great, I've told you that.
But I say that because I waslike, you know what we Need to
do, we need to pay Paris Hiltonto get on her platform and be
like, math is cool.
Because my whole thesis wasabout how like, math is marketed
in a way that makes itimpossible for like most of the
population to get into it, causeit's all about like, nerdy, like
(18:36):
anti social people doing math.
Anyways, the point is, my wholepitch was a celebrity could
literally, think about whenTaylor Swift like speaks up
about an election, likethousands of people, maybe
millions vote for like,
David Kochberg (18:49):
Yeah, the original influencer.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:50):
The original influencers.
And so, so I actually think thiswhole edu celeb thing is, let me
think, let me, let me thinkabout my answer here.
I mean, first of all, this wholeidea about education being at
the risk of being taken over byedu celebs, I.
David Kochberg (19:07):
Well I mostly posed the question for
entertainment value.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:11):
But I want to answer it because I'm because
I'm sure some people think that.
David Kochberg (19:15):
I mean, yeah, uh, in honesty, it is part of
the discussion.
It is something that we talkabout it because you talk about
it because there is a discussionabout.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:22):
I don't know how true this is.
Like, it's like, Okay.
What are we actually talkingabout?
Are we talking about there, howthere are, which there are in
every industry, people who arelike, well-known?
Like, okay.
There are people who well knownand that makes them, I mean, the
term edu celeb is so absurd tome that I can't even say it, but
like it's like, so they'rewell-known and they have
(19:42):
influence, I guess, becausepeople know them and like them.
And so
David Kochberg (19:47):
I think what you're trying to say is with
the, the old adage,"with greatpower comes, great
responsibility".
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
Yes! I do, I do say that.
David Kochberg (19:54):
And yes, the Paris Hilton idea, the idea of,
you can use your fame for thepowers of good.
And I think that there is a lotto be said for that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:04):
But I also think who is like, we're talking
about education, like the ideaof an edu celeb.
It's like, we're not talkingabout Paris Hilton.
We're talking about a person inthe math education world who is
very, very well-known and peoplelook up to like, is that our
definition of edu celeb?
David Kochberg (20:20):
We really don't have to, things were going very
smoothly.
We don't have to go down toodeep into this
Vanessa Vakharia (20:25):
Fine.
I just, I just think we all needto rethink what we're, if there
are people who are like, oh myGod, math education is being
taken over by edu celebs, whatis the actual, what what's
what's beneath that sentiment.
I just
David Kochberg (20:38):
Well yes, as an outsider who sees it all,
various trends can, can beeither jumped on and then, in
anything when something getspopular
Vanessa Vakharia (20:48):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (20:48):
There's always going to be haters.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:49):
That's it.
David Kochberg (20:49):
Haters are going to hate.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:51):
Haters are going to
David Kochberg (20:52):
But then
Vanessa Vakharia (20:52):
As Taylor Swift said, haters will hate.
Yeah.
Period.
I think that's it.
I that's, that's actually what Ithink.
So that's my closing statementis that with great power comes
great responsibility, but also Ireally think that when anything
reaches a pinnacle of becomingpopular and people are jumping
on the trend, the haters aregoing to come out and that's our
society.
(21:13):
Next.
David Kochberg (21:16):
Great.
Very succinct.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
Well, it's just, it gets me fired up.
David Kochberg (21:20):
No.
I know, that's why I asked.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:22):
And I also, I don't want to be acting
defensively and like being like,this is so ridiculous.
I mean, obviously.
David Kochberg (21:28):
No.
I asked the questionridiculously, intentionally.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:31):
Okay.
David Kochberg (21:32):
Uh, okay.
Let's, let's, let's keep, let'sgo back to the, let's keep it.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:35):
It's been 25 minutes somehow.
David Kochberg (21:38):
Because we're just having a conversation.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:40):
Okay.
David Kochberg (21:41):
So.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
We should do this more.
David Kochberg (21:45):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:46):
Maybe we should co-host the pod
David Kochberg (21:47):
Let's see how this Oh, my God.
Let's see how this one goes.
Uh, okay.
So looking back on your storiedcareer as a podcast host, is
there any guest that stands outas the most surprising, in terms
of, you went into the interviewexpecting one thing, or maybe
not expecting anything, and thenyou left it and your mind was
(22:10):
totally blown.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:13):
I would have to like look through the guests.
You know what I'm just going tosay something.
I will tell you a guest that hasstuck with me and that is Bex.
Honestly, she has always stuckwith me and I'll tell you why.
So for those of you who don'tknow, again, this was the early
days of the podcast when I wasjust like trolling the internet
for people who are talking shitabout math.
And I saw a tweet, from thisgirl, and it said"the best part
(22:37):
about adulting is being able toopt out of math".
David Kochberg (22:40):
Hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:41):
And so I commented and I was like, oh,
"sounds like math trauma, youshould come on my podcast." And
this girl was like, what?
And it ended up, I think beingone of the nice, first of all,
she ended up being such a lovelyperson.
Um, she's from the UK, it wasone of our first virtual
interviews, because at the timewe were doing them all in
person, and she just came onbeing like, so self-assured and
(23:03):
which makes her so amazing andjust being like, seriously, like
I suck at math, I've always beenbad at it and I don't care.
I didn't post that because Ihave math trauma it's cause
like, for real, like I don'tneed to do math anymore and I
was never good at it.
And like, that's fine.
And I kind of tried to convinceher throughout the interview, I
tried to pull some math therapyon her, and she, I was like, she
worked in a bank, she worked ina bank.
(23:24):
I was like, you're doing mathall the time.
And she was kind of like, ah,And it's so funny because six
months later, I remember gettinga message from her and she's
like, you know, I ended up goingon such a journey after our
interview and having a huge talkwith my mom and just realized
how true it was that I'vethought I was bad at math, and
it kind of was impacting my selfconfidence, and you've really
(23:45):
changed the way I see myselfnow.
And I've, I've kept in touchwith her to this day.
It was like four years ago.
And I just thought, I mean, Iguess it wasn't like a shocker,
but it was a really surprisingturnaround.
And also a surprising, like,going back to what you said
about like on, maybe you saidthis in the other interview that
people on Twitter just want toargue, you know, she had posted
this thing and was just like,you know, causing shit on
(24:08):
Twitter, kind of with it, butreally at the core of it, she
was just the nicest sweetestperson and really open to like,
self-reflecting about this.
I don't know.
I just, I just, I just, I lovedthat episode.
David Kochberg (24:19):
I agree.
Yeah.
And she was also very funny.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:21):
She was so funny.
She, I, I really hope she gets,she ends up on a reality show.
David Kochberg (24:26):
I do remember that one being really
fascinating and that's true,that's true, that was one of the
best, like you giving maththerapy, or not you giving even,
just talking like actual maththerapy.
In terms of what the podcast wasenvisioned for in the first
place.
Because I remember she wastalking about how, didn't she
have dyscalcula?
Like she had number dyslexia
Vanessa Vakharia (24:47):
That's right, that's right.
And it just occurred to her!
David Kochberg (24:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:50):
On the podcast!
David Kochberg (24:51):
So, yeah, it was,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:52):
She didn't know that that was even a thing.
She was like I'm always writingmy letters, uh, my numbers
backwards.
I was like, that's dyscalcula.
David Kochberg (24:59):
Oh, yeah, cause she was like, she would mix up
the hours and how there's 60minutes in an hour.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:04):
With a hundred cents in a dollar.
A lot of people, a lot of peoplethat's actually very common.
David Kochberg (25:08):
Yeah, it was very fascinating.
I thought it was so cool, thosekinds of opportunities to
understand, in a lot ofconversations, you're talking
about learning disabilities andyou're talking about
accommodations and stuff likethat, but that can be kind of
esoteric or abstract.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:26):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (25:26):
And then it's all, I've thought it's been very
interesting, a lot of yourguests, where you can actually
hear from some of them describewhat actually is their
experience.
How does their brain actuallytake in or interpret or struggle
with stuff that like a quoteunquote normal person might not,
which I know is not, that's whyI quote unquoted it, I know it's
(25:48):
not appropriate to say normal.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:49):
He's using air-quotes guys.
David Kochberg (25:50):
And I also said the words, quote unquote.
Yeah.
So this was, that's veryinteresting.
Uh, okay.
Let's move, let's move on.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:57):
I'm loving this interview.
David Kochberg (25:58):
I think it's going great.
I think I'm doing a great job.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:01):
It's been 30 minutes.
David Kochberg (26:02):
30 minutes.
Okay.
We're going to wrap up soon.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:05):
We are?
David Kochberg (26:06):
You want to keep going?
Vanessa Vakharia (26:07):
No, I'm just excited.
David Kochberg (26:08):
I'm, I planned.
I mean, I did it in the fiveminutes prior to the interview,
but uh, okay.
Let's brighten things up.
Well, things have been mostlypretty bright, actually.
Let's make them even brighter.
What gives you hope about thefuture of education?
Vanessa Vakharia (26:23):
So nice.
Not much.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
What I, honestly, I am, that wasa joke.
Because what gives me hope is,I'm telling you, talking,
talking to the guests on thispodcast, just having these
conversations, um, with so manyeducators who are not putting it
on, there are so passionateabout what they're doing.
(26:45):
It's funny because I think therest of the world has this
perception of teachers, and itis usually based, look, I run a
tutoring center.
I see thousands of kids everysingle year.
I talked to hundreds of parents,and the stories are familiar,
right?
It's like their, their kid willhave a very bad experience with
a teacher and ended up coming tous for tutoring, and now we're
(27:06):
here to heal those math wounds.
And I think the perception is ifyou're a parent, you know, with
a kid that has a bad experiencewith the teacher.
You get the impression that,that teachers don't care, you
know, and that they're nottrying, and they're using the
same old tech, whatever it is.
Okay.
And I just, I think teachers getsuch a bad reputation, based on
(27:28):
these one-off experiences,right?
And this is just negativity biasin the brain.
We remember the negativeexperiences more than the good
ones, because we're trying toprotect ourselves.
So, you know, their kid can have10 amazing teachers, but there's
one teacher that just, you know,like didn't pay attention to
them or did whatever, whateverit is, I don't want to call out
behavior.
And then they get thisimpression that, oh, teachers,
you know, like they're not doingany work or they're just
(27:50):
whatever.
And I think it's so easy to seethat all over, you know, we saw
that during COVID, just all ofthe hate teachers were getting,
being called glorifiedbabysitters, like just all of
this stuff.
And then on this side of things,I'm talking, every educator, I
am talking to cares so much,they're putting in so much extra
work.
They're buying resources withtheir own money, like, they are
(28:13):
just, they care so deeply aboutimproving the lives of their
students, like with their wholeheart and soul, and it does give
me so much hope.
Because it's just, I mean, ifyou're listening to this and
you're not an educator, it'slike, there are so, like the
majority of teachers out theretruly love your children.
(28:33):
You know, they love yourchildren and they care for them
and they want them to lovethemselves.
That's what gives me the mosthope.
It's talking to all theseeducators and, you know, you see
the math wars and all thisnonsense on Twitter and all of
that is just nonsense.
It's not, it's not happening inthe classroom.
In the classroom, what'shappening for the most part, are
teachers just doing everythingthey can to improve the lives of
their students.
David Kochberg (28:53):
That's beautiful.
I feel the same way, thatlistening to those conversations
you're having with all thesepeople similarly gives me hope
for the future.
Something that I think has comeup when you talk about this idea
with other guests is, is indeedwhat you just said, which is
that even if, for the most part,like sure, there's outliers who
(29:15):
just want to argue or just wantattention or whatever, but for
the most part, even if youvehemently disagree with someone
else in terms of educationpolicy, chances are both of you
are coming at it because youreally care about helping kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:32):
I really believe that.
Honestly.
Thank you for saying that.
I really believe that.
I think, I think that's what wehave to remember is like, you
know, you.
Oh, my God, you might disagreeon whether it should be explicit
instruction or not, the biggestdebate of all time, but at the
root of most of that is peoplewho really just want to do
what's best for the children anddisagree about how to do it.
(29:53):
Like again, of course there'ssome shit disturbers, and people
who are doing it for, you know,politics or whatever, but for
the most part, I really dobelieve that.
David Kochberg (30:00):
Well that's, all right, that's great.
Look at us agreeing.
Uh, okay.
Let us wrap up with the finaltwo questions that I ask every
guest, starting with this, myfirst interview.
And, uh, they're not what youthink they are!
Vanessa Vakharia (30:18):
Okay good.
Because I don't have answers tothose.
David Kochberg (30:21):
What would you say to someone who thinks that
they are a math person, andwants to share their love of
math with the world?
Vanessa Vakharia (30:31):
I mean, that would just be music to my ears.
Let me tell you.
I, um, if someone said that tome, I would be pumped.
And I think the key is actuallyis to find out, everyone has a
strength in terms of sharingknowledge and a passion for
something.
So I'd be very invested in likethis person's personality and
(30:52):
where to help them shine.
Like, are you, you don't need tobe a teacher, you don't have to
enter the classroom, but if youwant to, we need you.
Teachers are quitting at analarming rate.
Um, you know, but there are somany ways to share a love for
learning, including like,honestly, you hop on social
media and talk about it, startbreaking some of those
stereotypes, like be thatperson, when you go out with
friends and your friends arelike, I'm not a math person,
(31:13):
that you're the person likehelping them realize that
they're more capable than theythink.
I think there are so many waysto spread that love of math.
And we need all of the creative,innovative, unique approaches to
changing the stereotype that,that, you know, most of us can't
do math.
David Kochberg (31:31):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
And the last question that I askevery single time I interview
someone, what would you changeabout this podcast?
Vanessa Vakharia (31:46):
Um,
David Kochberg (31:46):
One thing
Vanessa Vakharia (31:47):
I will tell you one thing, I will tell you
one thing.
I would record way moreepisodes.
David Kochberg (31:52):
Oh God.
Can we go back to the firstquestion that I asked you that
we deleted, because it wasactually quite a depressing
answer you gave me.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:01):
There you go.
David Kochberg (32:02):
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:03):
So get to work!
David Kochberg (32:04):
I guess I walked right into that one.
It now comes time, for thatpoint in every episode where the
host, with grace, with con
Vanessa Vakharia (32:16):
Tell them about where to buy my book first
though.
David Kochberg (32:18):
Vanessa's book, Vanessa.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:20):
You're supposed to say is there
anything
David Kochberg (32:22):
Hey Vanessa, thank you, no, that's good, good
point, good, this is a goodlearning experience, good
training, thank you for theconstructive feedback.
Vanessa.
Is there anything else you'dlike to tell our guest, our
audience, you're the guest, our,is there anything else you would
like to tell the audience aboutspecifically the book that you
were trying to peddle right now?
You want to sell, you want tomove some copies, so those,
(32:44):
those pink beacons of hope arejust taking up space at some
warehouse, the back of your caror something?
I don't know.
Yeah, where can they buy it?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
Um, thank you so much.
I am trying to peddle my book.
It is called Math Therapy, andit is jam packed with tools,
strategies, templates.
No, for real though, um, if youwant to buy my book, uh, it is
not just a collection of storiesfrom the podcast, quite the
opposite.
It is literally every singlestep, the five steps of Math
Therapy, guiding every teacherout there on how to heal math
(33:15):
trauma in their classroom withlike strategies, resources,
activities, like everything.
Okay, cool.
That's my little promo pitch.
David Kochberg (33:21):
As the host and producer, I shall be putting a
link to purchase that book.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:28):
Let me tell you where to get it
David Kochberg (33:28):
Into the show notes.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:29):
Great.
You can literally, though, ifit's easier for you guys, the
easiest thing you can do is justgo to maththerapy.com.
New website, new book baby, goto maththerapy.com, you can see
how to purchase the book there.
David Kochberg (33:42):
Yeah, go do it.
It's it's a, it's a great book.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:44):
You haven't read it.
David Kochberg (33:45):
Heard the stories.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:46):
You've never read it.
David Kochberg (33:47):
But apparently I'm in it.
I think I had to sign somewaiver.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:49):
You did.
David Kochberg (33:50):
So, uh, yeah, go, go get the book.
Let me know what happens, how Iwas featured in there, cause I'm
not reading this piece ofgarbage.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:00):
David!
David Kochberg (34:03):
Uh, is there anything else?
Uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:05):
No.
David Kochberg (34:05):
No, make sure, you know, follow us on all the
social things.
There's the links in the shownotes, the description in your
podcast player or whatever,yada, yada.
Let us know what you think aboutthe podcast, you know, go on the
social media, do the tweetingand the Instagram commenting and
such.
And, uh, and, is it now, now Ican do the, okay.
(34:27):
And now finally it really comestime for the host to, with great
circumstance and pomp and, uh,and confidence, actually, now
I'm not doing a great job atall, it's time to say goodbye.
Vanessa, thank you so much forcoming on my podcast.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity to live out my
(34:49):
dreams.
And I am very happy to returnthe reins of the podcast back to
you because you do a great job.
It is a true honor to produceyou and edit these wonderful
episodes.
And this has been a lot of fun.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Your own podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:07):
You are supposed to say bye first,
everyone knows that.
You're just messing with me.
David Kochberg (35:15):
I've taught you nothing.
No.
How does a conversation usuallyend?
Like you see a person in publicyou're talking to them.
One of you is like, Hey, thishas been so great.
Great to see you.
Actually, no, that doesn'thappen in public, but it happens
on a podcast.
On a podcast.
If someone's like, it's like anatural, people.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:33):
We have to end this episode.
David Kochberg (35:35):
You know what, no, no, I you're, don't turn
around on me.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:40):
David.
It's been 50 minutes.
We're going to cut out a lot ofit though.
Yeah, but there's a lot.
We'll cut that whole section.
Okay.
David Kochberg (35:46):
Vanessa, thanks so much for coming on the pod
past, pod past, the cod pat,you're right, it is hard.
Huh!
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
I'm actually just leaving.
I have to go to the bathroom.
David Kochberg (35:55):
Thanks.
Vanessa.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
Goodbye.
She's, she's, now she's on thetoilet.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:07):
David!
David Kochberg (36:14):
And the final question, I will be asking you
on this interview.
What is one thing that you thinkthe education system does really
well?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:25):
Such a, wow, wow, wow, wow.
David Kochberg (36:30):
Since you're always shitting on it.
Ah,
I don't like being interviewed.
it's just so much energy toanswer all those questions.
David Kochberg (00:12):
Well, that's, we're off to a great start
already.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:16):
K, go.
David Kochberg (00:17):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode
of math therapy.
I am your host, David Kochberg,and today I'm interviewing the
normal host of Math Therapy,Vanessa Vakharia AKA The Math
Guru.
And, uh, why am I talking toyou?
(00:38):
Why am I hosting today?
You rightfully ask?
Well, Vanessa happens to haveamalgamated her life's work into
a book.
What is that book titled?
It's called Math Therapy.
(00:58):
So, uh, so you know what wethought here, the Math Therapy
team of the two of us, was wethought, you know, why don't we
flip the mic around actuallywe're using a bi-directional
mic.
And, why don't I grill The MathGuru herself, is this coming out
(01:19):
when the book is out, is thebook out?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:21):
Yes.
David Kochberg (01:22):
The book is out.
So we want to talk about thebook.
So, um, was that a good, wasthat a good intro?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:27):
That was so long.
David Kochberg (01:29):
Oh, all right.
Well maybe I'll edit some out.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:31):
I don't know if anyone's still listening.
All right.
David Kochberg (01:33):
So I want to start with the real hard hitting
journalism.
Vanessa Vakharia (01:39):
Because that's what this podcast is if
anything, people come here forthe hard hitting journalism.
David Kochberg (01:43):
Yes.
So what I want to,
Vanessa Vakharia (01:45):
I'd like to make this 20 minutes and we're
at three.
David Kochberg (01:48):
I am the host.
And you are my guest.
So you interviewed me.
Is that coming out, has thatbeen out?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:59):
That's going to be after this one, David.
David Kochberg (02:00):
So in the next one, right, so the next
interview, since you didn't askme this, I would like to start
by asking you.
What do you think most annoys meabout producing you.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:13):
Okay.
Wow.
I thought this is going to beabout the book.
David Kochberg (02:17):
You think this is some puff piece?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Okay.
What do I think annoys you mostabout working with me?
Fuck, where to start.
I actually do think I know whatit is.
And I think it's that I'm aGemini and you're a Taurus.
And so I want to do everythingreally, really fast.
And you want to take your timeand do it.
So I think it actually reallyannoys you when I try to speed
(02:40):
through things like say, I wantto make this episode 20 minutes
and we're already at three orwhatever, just like put on the
mic and just record when you'retrying to like make, you know,
do quality control.
I think it's my speed and lackof attention to, my attention
deficit?
Am I right?
David Kochberg (03:00):
Great answer.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:01):
Do you have an answer as to what annoys you
most that I,
David Kochberg (03:03):
We don't have time for that.
But great answer and highlyaccurate.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:07):
Okay.
David Kochberg (03:07):
Thank you for your vulnerability.
All right.
So extremely briefly, how didMath Therapy start and how did
it evolve into what is destinedto be a best selling book?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:20):
It's really hard when you ask a question
like that and preface it withvery briefly.
David Kochberg (03:24):
You are the one who said you want this over with
already! Fine take as much timeas you want!
Vanessa Vakharia (03:31):
Okay, how did Math Therapy start?
Okay.
So in brief, I mean, first ofall, I've been teaching math
forever and ever.
I've been tutoring math for, 20years now.
and I have always been doingmath therapy with students
without having an official namefor it.
And by that I mean, I havealways been very, very invested
in helping students build betterrelationships with math.
(03:53):
Through healing underlying mathtrauma.
So really focused on theemotional component of math
learning.
Now that being said, somehowsomewhere along the way, I
started doing a lot of pressabout math anxiety and talking
to news outlets about mathteaching.
And one day, me and my PR personat the time, Sabina, who is the
original creator of thispodcast, we were at Global
(04:15):
Television and I was doing aninterview as normal and I was on
air with this guy, the host,this man.
And basically anytime I go onair with a host, and this is so
the stereotype about journalism,but it's true, I go on and the
camera starts rolling and thehost will start reading from
their script.
"And here with me right now isVanessa Vakharia, the Math Guru.
(04:38):
Oh my God".
And then they'll start goinginto a math trauma response.
Like for real, they'll be like,"oh my God math.
Oh, I can't believe we'retalking about math.
I hated math".
But this time was different.
Because this particular hostwent one step further.
And he said,"I hated math somuch in school, and that's why I
became a journalist".
That's normal, they all saythat.
(05:00):
Then he said,"I'm so bad atmath.
I need my toes to count to 20".
On live television, nationaltelevision across Canada, takes
off his shoe, takes off hissock, and then proceeds to count
to 20 on his bare feet on TV.
And I, I was stunned.
(05:20):
I thought to myself, what theactual fuck, but number two, I
thought, I can't believe you'reso comfortable on air just
saying to millions of Canadiansthat you're so bad at uh, at
math that, you can't count to20.
Because that's not, we knowthat's not true, he can
obviously count to 20 withouthis toes.
And it was just thatreinforcement of that myth, you
know, of that idea that we'recomfortable bragging and about
(05:42):
not being good at math, butobviously he was so traumatized
that like, you would just dothat.
It was just crazy.
Anyways.
I left, and Sabina looked at meand she said, oh my God, these
people need math therapy.
And I was like, oh my God.
And then the podcast was born.
So that's how the podcaststarted.
And briefly it started.
If you, if you've been a longtime listener, first time
(06:02):
caller.
Uh, sorry.
David Kochberg (06:04):
Still don't know how to use that, do you.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:07):
Sorry, Zak.
Um, if you've been a longtimelistener, you'll know that in
the first few seasons, Iactually interviewed people with
math trauma.
So I was interviewing people whowere anxious around math and had
bad experiences with math andslowly that morphed into talking
to people in math, people wholiked math about math anxiety
and about what they thought ledto it.
And then that morphed into itscurrent state, which is really
(06:28):
talking to educators about allthe work that surrounds the hard
work of healing math trauma.
Student centered practices,representation, equity,
problem-solving, productivestruggle, and just realizing
what a village it takes to healmath trauma.
So then from there.
I started doing professionaldevelopment on it because there
was this real need, and, youknow, I was getting all these
emails from teachers, listeningto the podcast, being like, how
(06:51):
do I use this information in myclassroom?
So I put together a five stepprocess based on what the work
I've been doing with studentsfor 20 years, the steps I
actually go through on how toidentify math trauma, prevent
it, heal it, rewrite students'math stories, measure their
progress in a way that isn'tjust reliant on grades.
And then I wrote a book.
David Kochberg (07:11):
Great job
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
That wasn't bad, actually,
David Kochberg (07:14):
I wouldn't call it brief, but
Vanessa Vakharia (07:16):
It took six minutes.
David Kochberg (07:16):
You had to cover a lot.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:17):
I had to cover a lot.
David Kochberg (07:18):
And how are, at this very moment, the book is
not out, but it's coming out,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:24):
David!
David Kochberg (07:24):
When we're talking about, because you can't
put yourself into the future.
I mean right now at this, fine,pulling back the curtain on how
a podcast gets made.
We're recording this in advance.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:34):
Fine.
David Kochberg (07:34):
So how do you feel right now at this moment?
Are you nervous?
Are you excited or, um, in apanic, or what do you, what are
your feelings about the bookcoming out?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:44):
I'm not in a panic.
I will say like, I'm proud.
Because I have, you know, wetalk about math trauma, I have
real writing trauma.
I mean, I won't go too in depthinto it, but I remember like, to
me, the idea of writing an essayor writing a cohesive story was
the most stressful thing for mein high school.
(08:05):
I remember we would have Englishexams and you hand wrote them,
like we hand write exams, youdon't have a computer or
anything.
Also, it was the early twothousands.
Anyways.
I would sit there and there'dalways be the essay question on
the exam.
And in my mind, I would be like,if I just can avoid writing this
essay question, maybe it'll likedisappear.
So I would answer all the otherquestions on the exam.
(08:26):
And I'd wait and I'd wait.
And then when I'd have likeeight minutes left in the exam,
I'd be like, fuck, I've got todo this essay question.
And I'd always just completelybomb it because I couldn't, I
mean, eight minutes, you can'twrite an essay in eight minutes
and I just, I hated it, it, justeven thinking about it stresses
me out.
And then that really culminatedwhen I did my master's degree, I
remember the reason I didn'twant to do it is I knew I would
have to write a master's thesis,but I did it anyway.
(08:49):
And my writing of my master'sthesis, which by the way, it's
called Imagining a World WhereParis Hilton Loves Math, and I
was so excited about it, but theprocess of writing it nearly
destroyed me.
Like I'm not, I won't get intothe nitty gritty, but like my
mental health went down thedrain.
It was so horrible.
It was, oh my God.
Just even the research and that,them being so, so pedantic and
(09:10):
not being, I remember there wasa whole fuss because I used the
word adolescent instead ofteenager.
And literally because of thatword, I had to do a whole extra
semester.
I can't.
And I'm sorry, this isn't makingsense, but I remember it was
like
David Kochberg (09:25):
But the trauma's coming through.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:26):
Yeah.
It was, it was horrible.
It was just like the nitpickingover every single word and the
punctuation and the dah, dah,dah.
And I was just like, I.
It was, it was a lot.
So when it came time to writethis book, I was really excited
about, I wanted to createsomething for educators to use.
Like I wanted, I.
I really wanted to do it.
But I was really scared.
I was like, I really hope thattrauma doesn't come back.
(09:48):
I hope I don't freeze.
Cause that's what would happen.
And I
David Kochberg (09:51):
Just the task of writing?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:52):
The task of, of putting, this is why I have a
podcast is because I like tojust blah.
You know, like it's, it's hardto think of story through from
beginning to end and plan it outand make it make sense and, and
cover all the important points.
That idea of making somethingcohesive and concise is so
stressful to me.
(10:13):
And I was just, I had the besteditor.
I'm, I, I'm actually gettingemotional.
So Debbie, if you're listening,I had the best editor at Corwin,
Debbie Hardin, who just got me.
She got it.
She got, she was like, justwrite stuff down, let it flow
and I'll edit it, which is howmy relationship with you works.
(10:36):
But I will say this.
It's not like I just gave her abunch of garbage and she edited.
Okay.
That's not what happened.
David Kochberg (10:40):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:41):
The fact that she said that in the first
place, allowed me to unlock, um,It's not like I'm a bad writer
or a storyteller, honestly.
Like I'm a bit all over theplace.
Fine.
And I need some spit shining aswe all know.
But, but it allowed, knowing Ididn't have to give her a
perfect finished product, itunlocked at all.
(11:02):
And I was able to just sit andwrite and let the stuff come
out.
Just knowing someone was goingto look it over and, and fix it
up if it needed to, or makesuggestions or I've, just not
knowledge like unlocked.
And actually, this is so funnywe're talking about this now
because I'm like, this I feelis, it's the same thing as when
I say when students know thatthe answer isn't the goal
they're able to actually tacklethe problem.
(11:23):
And that's what it was because Iknew that a finished product
wasn't the goal.
The goal was just to get somestuff out there and to start, it
just made the writing process somuch less stressful and I really
enjoyed it and we, it was just,anyways, I just, Debbie is, I
can't thank her enough.
What was the question?
Oh, how do I feel now?
So my point is, my point isafter all that, I'm actually
(11:43):
proud that I wrote this bookbecause I thought it was
something I might never be ableto do.
Because I was like, I was sotraumatized by my master's
thesis.
I don't know that I ever wantedto, I always thought if I wrote
a book, I'll just get you toghost write it right?
That's always been my plan.
I'll just say a bunch of shitand you'll write it up for me.
So the fact that I wrote it out,um, and did it, so I'm proud.
That's number one.
David Kochberg (12:02):
Good.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:02):
And I'm excited because I know the
reactions I got to, like when Italk to teachers and the
professional development, and somany teachers are writing,
emailing me saying they're usingall my stuff in their
classrooms, now I'm going tohave something really cohesive
and concrete to give them withlike, you know, in an hour
professional development,there's only so much you can
talk about.
This, like goes so into it.
It really shows them how to domath therapy, how to turn their
classrooms into a math therapyclassroom.
(12:24):
So I'm excited.
And then also, obviously a partof me is like, is anyone going
to read this book?
So there's, there's that part,but I've, I mean, there's no
point in thinking about that.
I think it's funny, like intoday's world or you get so
stuck on the, like, and now Ihave to promote this thing.
I'm like, I don't want to getinto that really.
I just want to.
David Kochberg (12:43):
Even though you just filmed 20 hours of content.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:46):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (12:47):
But yes, I know
Vanessa Vakharia (12:48):
I'm trying to do it out of excitement.
Like I'm, so I'm excited.
I'm not panicked.
I'm just like, oh, I hope peoplebuy it and like it I guess.
But I'm excited to like, it's,it's pretty cool that this all
came from my own math traumawhen I was in school.
And now.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (13:09):
That's great.
That's, I'm glad to hear thatyou're proud and excited and it
makes sense to be nervous.
And the way you wrapped it up interms of the roots of it, I was
thinking about that idea of thewounded healer.
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:24):
Because Chiron is the asteroid that represents
the wounded healer in a birthchart.
David Kochberg (13:31):
Not necessarily where I was going with it.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:33):
But I just want to say mine is in my 12th
house, which is all about thesubconscious, which means it is
like my thing in this life to bea wound, like the wounded
healing for me comes from likethe subconscious, which has past
trauma.
And I heal through healing otherpeople's subconsciouses.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (13:52):
Can't resist taking over, taking control.
It's alright.
Yeah.
We're like two control freaks,but in very opposing ways.
But, yeah.
Okay.
Sure.
What was I going to say?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:01):
I don't know.
David Kochberg (14:01):
I've lost my train of thought.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:02):
That's a hard thing with the podcast is when
the, when the guests throws youoff course, you've gotta be able
to either keep going with it.
David Kochberg (14:09):
And you are a seasoned professional, whereas
this is my first, my first guesthosting.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:13):
You're doing really great.
Actually you're getting greatinfo to me, I can't believe I've
been talking.
David Kochberg (14:16):
I love how before this, you were like, you
do all the talking.
I don't want to talk at all.
And it's like, you're the guest.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:21):
Next question.
David Kochberg (14:23):
Uh, no, I do, I was going to say that I do think
that that is what makes, I meansure, social media and creating
content and stuff can alwaysfeel kind of artificial, cause
you have to, there is anartifice to creating stuff for
promoting, but you have to dothat, that's part of it.
But I think overall, especiallyin the podcast, because of the
way you talk to people, yourauthenticity comes through and
(14:46):
it's clear that you really careabout this stuff.
And it's, it's common thatpeople get into something
because they feel connected toit emotionally and empathy comes
from having gone throughsomething similar to the people
that you're empathizing with.
And so, thank you for sharingall of that backstory because I
think it is a really interestingcontext.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
Thank you.
And that's why I always say thatmath teachers with their own
math trauma are some of the mostpowerful teachers because they
can empathize with theirstudents.
David Kochberg (15:16):
Agreed.
I also, the producer in me can'tstop thinking that I, I'm
worried your voice is quieterthan mine because you're further
from the mic than me, but Idon't know.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:25):
But I'm louder than you.
David Kochberg (15:26):
You normally are, but I find in this, for
some reason you being the guest,you're like a lot more,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:30):
All right
David Kochberg (15:31):
reserved.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:32):
I'm not being reserved at all.
David Kochberg (15:33):
Don't hit the table, please.
Uh, all right, moving rightalong.
So you've interviewed some ofthe biggest names in math
education.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:40):
Oh!
David Kochberg (15:41):
From Jo Boaler to Peter Liljedahl to the
creators of the NetflixChristmas STEM movie, Jingle
Jangle, all of whom I now knoweverything about.
Uh, so what do you think
Vanessa Vakharia (15:53):
Jo Boaler actually wrote the forward to my
book.
Actually, everyone should knowthat.
David Kochberg (15:56):
Facts, facts, facts.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:57):
She's the best.
David Kochberg (15:58):
What do you think young Vanessa fresh out of
teacher's college would thinkabout where you have ended up in
education?
Vanessa Vakharia (16:06):
Wow.
Well, I would say that youngVanessa who was failing math
would probably be like, what theactual fuck.
I mean, I always tell mystudents who are, who are
stressed out about their futuresbeing like, I don't know what I
want to do, I'm always like, doyou think when I was 16, I was
like, I'm going to go into matheducation and talk to everyone
(16:26):
about math trauma.
Like sometimes you can't planthis stuff.
I think young Vanessa would belike, yeah right, that's the
weirdest thing I've ever heard.
Like number one.
But thinking of me in teacherscollege, you know, I don't know
that the young Vanessa would beso surprised.
I've always had a thirst forfame.
You know,
David Kochberg (16:50):
Okay, well, this is going to come as a shock to
nobody.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:53):
I've always wanted to be kind of famous, not
that I am famous, but I thinklike being like, oh, if you were
going to tell young Vanessa andteacher's college, you know what
you're going to end up doingwith your teaching, you're going
to end up, uh, ranting on everypublic platform you possibly can
about teaching math, she'd belike, Yeah, that checks out.
Like anything for a buck.
David Kochberg (17:15):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:15):
Actually I make no money off of any of this
ranting.
Our podcast is not sponsored,neither is my social media
content, but you know what Imean.
David Kochberg (17:22):
Growth mindset.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:23):
Should you delete this maybe?
David Kochberg (17:25):
No, because it segues great into one of my
other questions.
I was going to save it tilllater on, but we're just going
to go straight to it.
So, there's been a lot ofdiscussion about the perils and
dangers of math education beingtaken over by quote unquote, edu
celebs.
Do you think now is the besttime to be pivoting so hard into
(17:46):
a career as an edu celeb.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:54):
Oh, my God.
Let me start with this.
Everyone loves to hate acelebrity.
Okay.
Everyone loves to hate acelebrity.
Here's what I've always thoughtabout fame.
The coolest part about fame isthat people listen to you.
I remember when I wrote mymaster's thesis, by the way.
I pitched this to the Universityof British Columbia, my thing
(18:16):
was called Imagining a WorldWhere Paris Hilton Loves Math,
great, I've told you that.
But I say that because I waslike, you know what we Need to
do, we need to pay Paris Hiltonto get on her platform and be
like, math is cool.
Because my whole thesis wasabout how like, math is marketed
in a way that makes itimpossible for like most of the
population to get into it, causeit's all about like, nerdy, like
(18:36):
anti social people doing math.
Anyways, the point is, my wholepitch was a celebrity could
literally, think about whenTaylor Swift like speaks up
about an election, likethousands of people, maybe
millions vote for like,
David Kochberg (18:49):
Yeah, the original influencer.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:50):
The original influencers.
And so, so I actually think thiswhole edu celeb thing is, let me
think, let me, let me thinkabout my answer here.
I mean, first of all, this wholeidea about education being at
the risk of being taken over byedu celebs, I.
David Kochberg (19:07):
Well I mostly posed the question for
entertainment value.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:11):
But I want to answer it because I'm because
I'm sure some people think that.
David Kochberg (19:15):
I mean, yeah, uh, in honesty, it is part of
the discussion.
It is something that we talkabout it because you talk about
it because there is a discussionabout.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:22):
I don't know how true this is.
Like, it's like, Okay.
What are we actually talkingabout?
Are we talking about there, howthere are, which there are in
every industry, people who arelike, well-known?
Like, okay.
There are people who well knownand that makes them, I mean, the
term edu celeb is so absurd tome that I can't even say it, but
like it's like, so they'rewell-known and they have
(19:42):
influence, I guess, becausepeople know them and like them.
And so
David Kochberg (19:47):
I think what you're trying to say is with
the, the old adage,"with greatpower comes, great
responsibility".
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
Yes! I do, I do say that.
David Kochberg (19:54):
And yes, the Paris Hilton idea, the idea of,
you can use your fame for thepowers of good.
And I think that there is a lotto be said for that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:04):
But I also think who is like, we're talking
about education, like the ideaof an edu celeb.
It's like, we're not talkingabout Paris Hilton.
We're talking about a person inthe math education world who is
very, very well-known and peoplelook up to like, is that our
definition of edu celeb?
David Kochberg (20:20):
We really don't have to, things were going very
smoothly.
We don't have to go down toodeep into this
Vanessa Vakharia (20:25):
Fine.
I just, I just think we all needto rethink what we're, if there
are people who are like, oh myGod, math education is being
taken over by edu celebs, whatis the actual, what what's
what's beneath that sentiment.
I just
David Kochberg (20:38):
Well yes, as an outsider who sees it all,
various trends can, can beeither jumped on and then, in
anything when something getspopular
Vanessa Vakharia (20:48):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (20:48):
There's always going to be haters.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:49):
That's it.
David Kochberg (20:49):
Haters are going to hate.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:51):
Haters are going to
David Kochberg (20:52):
But then
Vanessa Vakharia (20:52):
As Taylor Swift said, haters will hate.
Yeah.
Period.
I think that's it.
I that's, that's actually what Ithink.
So that's my closing statementis that with great power comes
great responsibility, but also Ireally think that when anything
reaches a pinnacle of becomingpopular and people are jumping
on the trend, the haters aregoing to come out and that's our
society.
(21:13):
Next.
David Kochberg (21:16):
Great.
Very succinct.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:18):
Well, it's just, it gets me fired up.
David Kochberg (21:20):
No.
I know, that's why I asked.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:22):
And I also, I don't want to be acting
defensively and like being like,this is so ridiculous.
I mean, obviously.
David Kochberg (21:28):
No.
I asked the questionridiculously, intentionally.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:31):
Okay.
David Kochberg (21:32):
Uh, okay.
Let's, let's, let's keep, let'sgo back to the, let's keep it.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:35):
It's been 25 minutes somehow.
David Kochberg (21:38):
Because we're just having a conversation.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:40):
Okay.
David Kochberg (21:41):
So.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
We should do this more.
David Kochberg (21:45):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:46):
Maybe we should co-host the pod
David Kochberg (21:47):
Let's see how this Oh, my God.
Let's see how this one goes.
Uh, okay.
So looking back on your storiedcareer as a podcast host, is
there any guest that stands outas the most surprising, in terms
of, you went into the interviewexpecting one thing, or maybe
not expecting anything, and thenyou left it and your mind was
(22:10):
totally blown.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:13):
I would have to like look through the guests.
You know what I'm just going tosay something.
I will tell you a guest that hasstuck with me and that is Bex.
Honestly, she has always stuckwith me and I'll tell you why.
So for those of you who don'tknow, again, this was the early
days of the podcast when I wasjust like trolling the internet
for people who are talking shitabout math.
And I saw a tweet, from thisgirl, and it said"the best part
(22:37):
about adulting is being able toopt out of math".
David Kochberg (22:40):
Hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:41):
And so I commented and I was like, oh,
"sounds like math trauma, youshould come on my podcast." And
this girl was like, what?
And it ended up, I think beingone of the nice, first of all,
she ended up being such a lovelyperson.
Um, she's from the UK, it wasone of our first virtual
interviews, because at the timewe were doing them all in
person, and she just came onbeing like, so self-assured and
(23:03):
which makes her so amazing andjust being like, seriously, like
I suck at math, I've always beenbad at it and I don't care.
I didn't post that because Ihave math trauma it's cause
like, for real, like I don'tneed to do math anymore and I
was never good at it.
And like, that's fine.
And I kind of tried to convinceher throughout the interview, I
tried to pull some math therapyon her, and she, I was like, she
worked in a bank, she worked ina bank.
(23:24):
I was like, you're doing mathall the time.
And she was kind of like, ah,And it's so funny because six
months later, I remember gettinga message from her and she's
like, you know, I ended up goingon such a journey after our
interview and having a huge talkwith my mom and just realized
how true it was that I'vethought I was bad at math, and
it kind of was impacting my selfconfidence, and you've really
(23:45):
changed the way I see myselfnow.
And I've, I've kept in touchwith her to this day.
It was like four years ago.
And I just thought, I mean, Iguess it wasn't like a shocker,
but it was a really surprisingturnaround.
And also a surprising, like,going back to what you said
about like on, maybe you saidthis in the other interview that
people on Twitter just want toargue, you know, she had posted
this thing and was just like,you know, causing shit on
(24:08):
Twitter, kind of with it, butreally at the core of it, she
was just the nicest sweetestperson and really open to like,
self-reflecting about this.
I don't know.
I just, I just, I just, I lovedthat episode.
David Kochberg (24:19):
I agree.
Yeah.
And she was also very funny.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:21):
She was so funny.
She, I, I really hope she gets,she ends up on a reality show.
David Kochberg (24:26):
I do remember that one being really
fascinating and that's true,that's true, that was one of the
best, like you giving maththerapy, or not you giving even,
just talking like actual maththerapy.
In terms of what the podcast wasenvisioned for in the first
place.
Because I remember she wastalking about how, didn't she
have dyscalcula?
Like she had number dyslexia
Vanessa Vakharia (24:47):
That's right, that's right.
And it just occurred to her!
David Kochberg (24:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:50):
On the podcast!
David Kochberg (24:51):
So, yeah, it was,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:52):
She didn't know that that was even a thing.
She was like I'm always writingmy letters, uh, my numbers
backwards.
I was like, that's dyscalcula.
David Kochberg (24:59):
Oh, yeah, cause she was like, she would mix up
the hours and how there's 60minutes in an hour.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:04):
With a hundred cents in a dollar.
A lot of people, a lot of peoplethat's actually very common.
David Kochberg (25:08):
Yeah, it was very fascinating.
I thought it was so cool, thosekinds of opportunities to
understand, in a lot ofconversations, you're talking
about learning disabilities andyou're talking about
accommodations and stuff likethat, but that can be kind of
esoteric or abstract.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:26):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (25:26):
And then it's all, I've thought it's been very
interesting, a lot of yourguests, where you can actually
hear from some of them describewhat actually is their
experience.
How does their brain actuallytake in or interpret or struggle
with stuff that like a quoteunquote normal person might not,
which I know is not, that's whyI quote unquoted it, I know it's
(25:48):
not appropriate to say normal.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:49):
He's using air-quotes guys.
David Kochberg (25:50):
And I also said the words, quote unquote.
Yeah.
So this was, that's veryinteresting.
Uh, okay.
Let's move, let's move on.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:57):
I'm loving this interview.
David Kochberg (25:58):
I think it's going great.
I think I'm doing a great job.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:01):
It's been 30 minutes.
David Kochberg (26:02):
30 minutes.
Okay.
We're going to wrap up soon.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:05):
We are?
David Kochberg (26:06):
You want to keep going?
Vanessa Vakharia (26:07):
No, I'm just excited.
David Kochberg (26:08):
I'm, I planned.
I mean, I did it in the fiveminutes prior to the interview,
but uh, okay.
Let's brighten things up.
Well, things have been mostlypretty bright, actually.
Let's make them even brighter.
What gives you hope about thefuture of education?
Vanessa Vakharia (26:23):
So nice.
Not much.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
What I, honestly, I am, that wasa joke.
Because what gives me hope is,I'm telling you, talking,
talking to the guests on thispodcast, just having these
conversations, um, with so manyeducators who are not putting it
on, there are so passionateabout what they're doing.
(26:45):
It's funny because I think therest of the world has this
perception of teachers, and itis usually based, look, I run a
tutoring center.
I see thousands of kids everysingle year.
I talked to hundreds of parents,and the stories are familiar,
right?
It's like their, their kid willhave a very bad experience with
a teacher and ended up coming tous for tutoring, and now we're
(27:06):
here to heal those math wounds.
And I think the perception is ifyou're a parent, you know, with
a kid that has a bad experiencewith the teacher.
You get the impression that,that teachers don't care, you
know, and that they're nottrying, and they're using the
same old tech, whatever it is.
Okay.
And I just, I think teachers getsuch a bad reputation, based on
(27:28):
these one-off experiences,right?
And this is just negativity biasin the brain.
We remember the negativeexperiences more than the good
ones, because we're trying toprotect ourselves.
So, you know, their kid can have10 amazing teachers, but there's
one teacher that just, you know,like didn't pay attention to
them or did whatever, whateverit is, I don't want to call out
behavior.
And then they get thisimpression that, oh, teachers,
you know, like they're not doingany work or they're just
(27:50):
whatever.
And I think it's so easy to seethat all over, you know, we saw
that during COVID, just all ofthe hate teachers were getting,
being called glorifiedbabysitters, like just all of
this stuff.
And then on this side of things,I'm talking, every educator, I
am talking to cares so much,they're putting in so much extra
work.
They're buying resources withtheir own money, like, they are
(28:13):
just, they care so deeply aboutimproving the lives of their
students, like with their wholeheart and soul, and it does give
me so much hope.
Because it's just, I mean, ifyou're listening to this and
you're not an educator, it'slike, there are so, like the
majority of teachers out theretruly love your children.
(28:33):
You know, they love yourchildren and they care for them
and they want them to lovethemselves.
That's what gives me the mosthope.
It's talking to all theseeducators and, you know, you see
the math wars and all thisnonsense on Twitter and all of
that is just nonsense.
It's not, it's not happening inthe classroom.
In the classroom, what'shappening for the most part, are
teachers just doing everythingthey can to improve the lives of
their students.
David Kochberg (28:53):
That's beautiful.
I feel the same way, thatlistening to those conversations
you're having with all thesepeople similarly gives me hope
for the future.
Something that I think has comeup when you talk about this idea
with other guests is, is indeedwhat you just said, which is
that even if, for the most part,like sure, there's outliers who
(29:15):
just want to argue or just wantattention or whatever, but for
the most part, even if youvehemently disagree with someone
else in terms of educationpolicy, chances are both of you
are coming at it because youreally care about helping kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:32):
I really believe that.
Honestly.
Thank you for saying that.
I really believe that.
I think, I think that's what wehave to remember is like, you
know, you.
Oh, my God, you might disagreeon whether it should be explicit
instruction or not, the biggestdebate of all time, but at the
root of most of that is peoplewho really just want to do
what's best for the children anddisagree about how to do it.
(29:53):
Like again, of course there'ssome shit disturbers, and people
who are doing it for, you know,politics or whatever, but for
the most part, I really dobelieve that.
David Kochberg (30:00):
Well that's, all right, that's great.
Look at us agreeing.
Uh, okay.
Let us wrap up with the finaltwo questions that I ask every
guest, starting with this, myfirst interview.
And, uh, they're not what youthink they are!
Vanessa Vakharia (30:18):
Okay good.
Because I don't have answers tothose.
David Kochberg (30:21):
What would you say to someone who thinks that
they are a math person, andwants to share their love of
math with the world?
Vanessa Vakharia (30:31):
I mean, that would just be music to my ears.
Let me tell you.
I, um, if someone said that tome, I would be pumped.
And I think the key is actuallyis to find out, everyone has a
strength in terms of sharingknowledge and a passion for
something.
So I'd be very invested in likethis person's personality and
(30:52):
where to help them shine.
Like, are you, you don't need tobe a teacher, you don't have to
enter the classroom, but if youwant to, we need you.
Teachers are quitting at analarming rate.
Um, you know, but there are somany ways to share a love for
learning, including like,honestly, you hop on social
media and talk about it, startbreaking some of those
stereotypes, like be thatperson, when you go out with
friends and your friends arelike, I'm not a math person,
(31:13):
that you're the person likehelping them realize that
they're more capable than theythink.
I think there are so many waysto spread that love of math.
And we need all of the creative,innovative, unique approaches to
changing the stereotype that,that, you know, most of us can't
do math.
David Kochberg (31:31):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
And the last question that I askevery single time I interview
someone, what would you changeabout this podcast?
Vanessa Vakharia (31:46):
Um,
David Kochberg (31:46):
One thing
Vanessa Vakharia (31:47):
I will tell you one thing, I will tell you
one thing.
I would record way moreepisodes.
David Kochberg (31:52):
Oh God.
Can we go back to the firstquestion that I asked you that
we deleted, because it wasactually quite a depressing
answer you gave me.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:01):
There you go.
David Kochberg (32:02):
Well,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:03):
So get to work!
David Kochberg (32:04):
I guess I walked right into that one.
It now comes time, for thatpoint in every episode where the
host, with grace, with con
Vanessa Vakharia (32:16):
Tell them about where to buy my book first
though.
David Kochberg (32:18):
Vanessa's book, Vanessa.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:20):
You're supposed to say is there
anything
David Kochberg (32:22):
Hey Vanessa, thank you, no, that's good, good
point, good, this is a goodlearning experience, good
training, thank you for theconstructive feedback.
Vanessa.
Is there anything else you'dlike to tell our guest, our
audience, you're the guest, our,is there anything else you would
like to tell the audience aboutspecifically the book that you
were trying to peddle right now?
You want to sell, you want tomove some copies, so those,
(32:44):
those pink beacons of hope arejust taking up space at some
warehouse, the back of your caror something?
I don't know.
Yeah, where can they buy it?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
Um, thank you so much.
I am trying to peddle my book.
It is called Math Therapy, andit is jam packed with tools,
strategies, templates.
No, for real though, um, if youwant to buy my book, uh, it is
not just a collection of storiesfrom the podcast, quite the
opposite.
It is literally every singlestep, the five steps of Math
Therapy, guiding every teacherout there on how to heal math
(33:15):
trauma in their classroom withlike strategies, resources,
activities, like everything.
Okay, cool.
That's my little promo pitch.
David Kochberg (33:21):
As the host and producer, I shall be putting a
link to purchase that book.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:28):
Let me tell you where to get it
David Kochberg (33:28):
Into the show notes.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:29):
Great.
You can literally, though, ifit's easier for you guys, the
easiest thing you can do is justgo to maththerapy.com.
New website, new book baby, goto maththerapy.com, you can see
how to purchase the book there.
David Kochberg (33:42):
Yeah, go do it.
It's it's a, it's a great book.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:44):
You haven't read it.
David Kochberg (33:45):
Heard the stories.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:46):
You've never read it.
David Kochberg (33:47):
But apparently I'm in it.
I think I had to sign somewaiver.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:49):
You did.
David Kochberg (33:50):
So, uh, yeah, go, go get the book.
Let me know what happens, how Iwas featured in there, cause I'm
not reading this piece ofgarbage.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:00):
David!
David Kochberg (34:03):
Uh, is there anything else?
Uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:05):
No.
David Kochberg (34:05):
No, make sure, you know, follow us on all the
social things.
There's the links in the shownotes, the description in your
podcast player or whatever,yada, yada.
Let us know what you think aboutthe podcast, you know, go on the
social media, do the tweetingand the Instagram commenting and
such.
And, uh, and, is it now, now Ican do the, okay.
(34:27):
And now finally it really comestime for the host to, with great
circumstance and pomp and, uh,and confidence, actually, now
I'm not doing a great job atall, it's time to say goodbye.
Vanessa, thank you so much forcoming on my podcast.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity to live out my
(34:49):
dreams.
And I am very happy to returnthe reins of the podcast back to
you because you do a great job.
It is a true honor to produceyou and edit these wonderful
episodes.
And this has been a lot of fun.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Your own podcast.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:07):
You are supposed to say bye first,
everyone knows that.
You're just messing with me.
David Kochberg (35:15):
I've taught you nothing.
No.
How does a conversation usuallyend?
Like you see a person in publicyou're talking to them.
One of you is like, Hey, thishas been so great.
Great to see you.
Actually, no, that doesn'thappen in public, but it happens
on a podcast.
On a podcast.
If someone's like, it's like anatural, people.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:33):
We have to end this episode.
David Kochberg (35:35):
You know what, no, no, I you're, don't turn
around on me.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:40):
David.
It's been 50 minutes.
We're going to cut out a lot ofit though.
Yeah, but there's a lot.
We'll cut that whole section.
Okay.
David Kochberg (35:46):
Vanessa, thanks so much for coming on the pod
past, pod past, the cod pat,you're right, it is hard.
Huh!
Vanessa Vakharia (35:52):
I'm actually just leaving.
I have to go to the bathroom.
David Kochberg (35:55):
Thanks.
Vanessa.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
Goodbye.
She's, she's, now she's on thetoilet.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:07):
David!
David Kochberg (36:14):
And the final question, I will be asking you
on this interview.
What is one thing that you thinkthe education system does really
well?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:25):
Such a, wow, wow, wow, wow.
David Kochberg (36:30):
Since you're always shitting on it.
Ah,
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