March 14, 2024 • 48 mins
It's March 14th, aka 3.14 ... so Happy Pi Day! To help you get in the zone, we're re-airing an episode from last year recounting the Math Therapy team's Pi Day 2023 trip to Bellamy Creek Correctional Facility in Michigan. This stemmed from Vanessa's Season 3, Episode 10 interview with Christopher Havens, an inmate serving a 25-year sentence for murder who has rehabilitated himself with math and founded the Prison Mathematics Project.
Find out more about PMP at prisonmathproject.org where you can:
- donate
- volunteer as a mentor for an inmate
- sign up an inmate interested in the program
Connect with us:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:00):
Hello and happy Pi Day everyone.
Oh my god, this is so exciting.
Okay, so if you're listening andyou're like, I'm sorry, what?
Happy Pi Day?
Let me explain.
Pi Day is March 14th becauseit's the third month and the
14th day, so 3.14, which arelike the approximate digits of
Pi.
So it's a very exciting time.
It is more important to me thanmy birthday, I like to celebrate
(00:20):
every year.
You should be baking a pie rightnow.
You do you.
But this year I figured we wouldcelebrate by re airing our most
epic Pi Day episode yet.
So if you've been following thepodcast for a while you'll know
that a few seasons ago weinterviewed Christopher Havens
who was an inmate in prison,there for committing murder, but
discovered math and it totallychanged his life.
(00:41):
It was an incredibly movingepisode and last year he invited
the entire Math Therapy team togo to prison and do math with
the inmates.
It was the most incredibleexperience and we recorded an
episode based on it, but weweren't able to air it until
like way after Pi Day last year.
So this year we figured we'regoing to re air it today on Pi
Day so you can listen to itagain if you already have or if
(01:03):
you're a new follower of thepodcast you can listen to it for
the first time.
Whatever you're doing, whetherthat made sense or not, I don't
know.
The point is happy Pi Day.
Listen to this episode, it'samazing, go eat a pie, yes,
pizza counts.
Yay 3.14.
By the way, one more quickthing.
Season six of Math Therapy isofficially dropping in two weeks
on March 28th.
(01:26):
Okay guys, today we maybe haveone of the craziest episodes
ever, like no hyperbole, Iswear.
Let me start by saying that theMath Therapy team went to prison
for PI Day.
Like we crossed the border intoMichigan and went to prison for
Pi Day.
Okay.
I just want to like, get thatout of the way, but okay, let me
back up.
(01:46):
Some of you might rememberseason 3, episode 10, when I
interviewed Christopher Havens,a convicted felon, who's
currently serving a 25 yearmurder sentence.
Now, like the story is crazy.
You have to listen to theepisode, but in short,
Christopher Havens was in themiddle of a 25 year sentence,
he's in solitary confinement,and somebody passes an envelope
of math puzzles under his door.
(02:08):
It forever changes his life, andhe is now in the process of
rehabilitating with math, and hehas started the Prison
Mathematics Project, which is anorganization aimed at helping
inmates across the USrehabilitate with math.
Obviously listen to the wholeepisode because there was way
more to it, but that's a shortsummary.
So Christopher and I have keptin touch over the past few
years, and it has been a goal ofhis to actually bring Prison
(02:32):
Math Project to inmates, IRL oneday.
But the barriers have beencrazy.
I mean like first there wasCOVID, but additionally, we
learned that it's shockinglyhard to get most correctional
facilities to actually agree toallowing the prisoners to
receive any more than the bareminimum when it comes to
education.
But this year the stars alignedand one prison called the
Bellamy Creek CorrectionalFacility in Michigan, agreed to
(02:54):
let Prison Math Project host aPi Day celebration for their
inmates.
Okay.
So you're probably like, that'sgreat, but how did you possibly
got involved and that's a greatquestion that I ask myself every
day, no joke.
And the simple answer isChristopher asked me to host it.
Trust me, when I got the call, Iwas simultaneously like,
absolutely yes hell no, but Iknew deep down, this was
(03:15):
something I had to say yes to,no matter how scary or new or
weird it sounded.
And I knew I wasn't going to doit alone, obviously.
The second I got off the phonewith Christopher, I begged
Sabina and David, AKA the O GMath Therapy team, to agree to
this crazy adventure with me,and they said, yes.
But like truthfully, I thinkDavid said yes, just because he
was terrified of what wouldhappen if he said no, and I was
(03:37):
left to fend for myself, likecruising on into a prison,
wearing full velvet with no onethere to chaperone me.
But guys, I'm so glad we alljust trusted our intuition
because we literally had alife-changing experience I know
that none of us will everforget.
So luckily for us Sabina, AKAthe true reporter she is,
brought along a handheldrecorder, and we documented the
(03:59):
before and after of our time onthe inside, as they say in the
movies.
I'm going to play you guys whatwe recorded and then I'm going
to pipe in here and there tofill in the blanks.
So what you're about to hearfirst is a recording of us in
the car on a six hour drive fromToronto to Michigan, headed to
Bellamy Creek CorrectionalFacility on March 13th, the day
(04:19):
before Pi Day.
Sabina Wex (04:20):
Okay.
We just wanna go on the recordabout how we're feeling about
going to jail right now.
David, do you wanna explain thecontext?
I feel like you're good at it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:28):
Yeah.
Where are we off
David Kochberg (04:29):
Now we are suddenly representatives of the
Prison Math Project.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:34):
That's correct.
David Kochberg (04:35):
Having a year or two ago conducted an interview
where Vanessa spoke to inmateChristopher Havens who
rehabilitated himself withmathematics.
And he invited Vanessa to MCtomorrow's Pi Day celebrations
at Bellamy Correctional Facilityin Michigan.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:54):
What's the vibe fam?
Sabina Wex (04:56):
How are we feeling in general?
Vanessa Vakharia (04:57):
So I'm feeling, I will say at the
beginning, like the weeksleading up, I was like feeling
kind of stressed and nervousabout it.
I was kind of like, oh my God.
I have no idea what I'm doingand I still feel that way.
I have no clue what I'm doing.
Like, are they gonna hate me?
Or am I gonna say somethingoffensive?
Like that kind of thing.
Sabina Wex (05:12):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:13):
But I have to say, as I've been speaking more
and more to Christopher and he'skind of just been like, listen,
no matter what happens, it'sgoing to be great.
no matter what, we're on anadventure.
We've never done this.
So that's very cool.
Number two, regardless of how itturns out, we are well
intentioned and we've done asmuch research as possible and
asked as many questions aspossible, and we're, this is
what the podcast is for, this islike why we recorded the
(05:34):
episode.
And also I just feel good thatyou guys are here.
You know what I mean?
So I'm, I'm kind of actually nowin the phase of like, yep, who
knows what's gonna happen,there's only so much you can
organize when you're dealingwith prison, like there's only
so much you can organize andknow beforehand.
I'm kind of like excited for theadventure.
What about you?
Sabina Wex (05:51):
Yeah, I agree.
Leading up when you called me Iwas like, this sounds like a
shit show, this is gonna be sobad.
We're gonna drive eight hoursfor no fucking reason.
Like we're gonna be in there forliterally 30 minutes,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:00):
Which still might happen.
Sabina Wex (06:02):
It still could happen.
But now I'm like, it's justreally weird.
And honestly, I'm veryinterested to see what happens.
Yeah.
And I do, I do have a goodfeeling about it.
And like, I think it's gonna belike, we're so nervous.
We keep being like, we havestuff printed out for the border
guards in case they ask, we areso prepared for the prison
guards when they like need totake stuff from us, but I feel
like they're just gonna be like,come on in.
(06:24):
Like, I could be totally wrong.
I've never been to a prisonbefore in my life.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:28):
Same
Sabina Wex (06:29):
Or a jail or anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:30):
And we're going to an American.
You have?
David Kochberg (06:32):
No, I don't think I have.
Sabina Wex (06:33):
None of us have been to prison.
So it's definitely a newexperience.
And like you said, Americanprisons, like there's all this
baggage.
I really don't know what toexpect and I don't think we
could really prepare anymore.
Like I think we just have to go.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (06:44):
And just act like our normal selves.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:46):
Which is hard because we like also, I will say
I did have a full dream lastnight that we went to the
prison, but it was like our bandwas playing and there were all
these people there andChristopher was like, oh, you
don't need a mic.
And I was like, how's anyonegonna hear me?
There's hundreds of people.
And then I also said to both ofyou, I was like, I was really
scared someone was gonna put melike in the hole cause that's
what you hear about always.
And I was like, if you don't seeme in 10 minutes, like come look
(07:06):
for me.
But it wasn't like a scary dreamactually, but like I did have a
whole dream about it.
David Kochberg (07:11):
So you dreamt that during a show you got
placed in solitary confinement?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:14):
No, but like I didn't, but I was scared I was
going to, and I like told you
David Kochberg (07:17):
Because your performance wasn't good enough?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:20):
No, I,
David Kochberg (07:21):
Because you committed a crime during the
show?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:23):
Just the concept of the hole, like when I
was talking to Christopher onthe phone, yeah, yesterday he
was like,
David Kochberg (07:28):
He does keeps saying, he does keep referring
to it as the hole
Vanessa Vakharia (07:31):
Like he was talking about, he was talking
about this guy, TravisCunningham, that he wanted that
apparently he is gonna be there.
And he was like, he was like,yeah, he's actually really taken
on this role and he's like doingall this math stuff on his own.
And we couldn't get in touchwith him for two years because
of like all of the red tape ofthe prison system and how hard
it is to get in touch withinmates.
And he was like, and their mailwasn't working and he was like,
(07:51):
and for a while I thought maybehe was in the hole.
And I was like, wait.
I thought that was just inmovies, like fucking Murder in
the First with Kevin Bacon.
Like that's actually so scary.
Yeah.
That people get put in solitaryconfinement.
Like, I thought it actuallyreally creeps me out.
David Kochberg (08:04):
Yeah, there's a, I think a lot of controversy
around that.
I mean, this is a, a muchbroader conversation, but yeah,
if the whole point of acorrections facility is to help
rehabilitate prisoners, but howmuch actual rehabilitation goes
on.
But that's what's cool aboutbeing involved in an, an event
like this.
And that's what's cool aboutwhat Christopher does with this
(08:25):
project, is that it isproactively trying to do
something to helprehabilitation.
Mm-hmm.
So that's why it is cool to beinvolved and like make this
trek.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:34):
I feel like we're gonna, I'm nervous that
I'm gonna get really upset whenI like, see how little they're
allowed to do.
Like Christopher's alwaystalking about how it's so hard
to actually mobilize this thingbecause, so the reason we're
going to Bellamy by the way, isnot because he's there.
It's because it's one of the fewprisons in the entire system
that will allow educational workto take place, which is actually
(08:56):
really upsetting.
And he's not allowed to do thisin his prison.
Sabina Wex (09:00):
Yeah.
I'm also worried about beinglike, I'm deeply upset by the
state of this.
David Kochberg (09:06):
Well, I don't think we should be getting too
emotionally invested.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:10):
Yeah, but how do you not, it's like when you
see a homeless person, like, Iget upset right away.
David Kochberg (09:14):
Yeah.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tcare, like we're going because
we care, but I think we don'tknow anything about any of,
these people, the prisoners thatwe are going to meet.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:23):
Right.
David Kochberg (09:23):
And you can't have the context on all of them.
who knows what they've done andhow they've ended up in prison,
and that's not really our placeto be figuring that out.
Sabina Wex (09:36):
Yeah, I agree.
None of us are gonna be like,what did you do?
Like that's not the conversationwe're having.
Okay.
Do we have anything else wewanna put on before we get
going?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:44):
I mean, the best thing we can do is just get
comfortable with uncertainty atthis point.
David Kochberg (09:48):
Yeah.
It's just an interestinglearning experience.
And in terms of the actualprisoners there, likely, they
have very boring, regimentedlives, I mean, Christopher was
saying like, this kind of thingdoesn't happen that much.
They don't get right visitors orspeakers ever, if at all, and
not often.
So I'm just looking at it as,well, I mean, you're gonna do
(10:12):
all the talking there, but you
Vanessa Vakharia (10:14):
Feel free to pipe in.
David Kochberg (10:15):
Well, we'll participate, but like you are
the host.
Sabina Wex (10:17):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (10:17):
Like you're the MC.
We're here as part of the team.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:20):
Sure.
David Kochberg (10:20):
But yeah, you're the whole point of
rehabilitation or of thisproject, the Prison Math
Project, is to humanizeprisoners and yeah, we don't
have to or want to know whythey're in prison, but they're
in prison.
And the whole point is to notjust give up on people because
they've done something like theymade a mistake earlier in their
(10:41):
lives.
And as far as we need to analyzeit in advance, it's just we're
doing something to help brightentheir pi day and give them
something a little different intheir lives and maybe be a tiny
part in giving them a bit ofhope.
And if they're showing up tothis event, then they're
probably interested in math, soyou're just playing a part in
(11:03):
facilitating that interest leveland just a tiny little thing
that can hopefully help in theirrehabilitation journey.
But yeah, otherwise there is noway to predict what it's gonna
be like.
Which is cool for us, likethat's just an interesting
experience that we otherwisewould never have had.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:19):
Yeah.
The thing I'm most scared aboutactually is just how early it
is.
David Kochberg (11:23):
But you're a relatively early bird.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:25):
No, but like, it's like we have to be there at
like 7:15 in the morning, likethat's early.
Sabina Wex (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
David Kochberg (11:29):
Yeah.
I'm terrified about that part.
Sabina Wex (11:30):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (11:31):
But I feel like I'll be, so, I'll be so tired,
that then I will be, I'll be tootired to be like stressed, I
guess so.
Sabina Wex (11:39):
Oh, that's a, that's a good idea.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:39):
Yeah, that's a good point.
And also this event is two and ahalf hours.
It's so quick, like, I'm kind ofnervous it's gonna go by too
fast.
Sabina Wex (11:46):
It's okay.
We'll do some more debriefs.
We'll do, this is great.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:50):
Okay.
Wow.
It's so crazy to listen back tothat now, and to think of how
young and innocent we were whenwe're walking through those
prison doors.
I mean, like I'm half joking,but I'm half serious.
Before I tell you guys whatactually happened.
I need to clarify by the waythat the border guard did not
just let us cruise right intoMichigan as Sabina suggested.
First of all, I get so nervousevery time I crossed the border,
(12:12):
like, I don't know if it's justme, but you're just like, oh my
God, they're not going to let mein, whatever.
And especially on this occasion,because I was like, our story is
insane.
So we're about to go in and theguard's like, why are you going?
And we're like, well, it'sactually PI day tomorrow, like
March 14th.
And he's like, k, whatever.
And we're like, we're going toteach math to inmates in a
prison.
And he, he goes,"why?".
(12:33):
And we're like, because we,like, we, it's PI day, and we're
volunteering to teach math tothe inmates.
And he's like, well, why you?
And I'm like, oh, like I'm amath teacher, this and that.
And he's like, are you makingmoney?
And I'm like, oh no.
And he's like,"so then why".
Have you heard of volunteering?
Anyways, he finally, like, I waslike, dude, listen to how cool
(12:55):
this is.
And then I told them all aboutChristopher Havens and he like,
I don't know, he like raised aneyebrow, he seemed kind of
interested.
And then he was like, k,whatever, go in.
Anyways.
Now that we've clarified that,here's what PI day in prison
actually looked like.
Okay.
So I'm just gonna explain to youguys what happened.
So, first of all, we got thereMarch 13th, we got into Michigan
and we're, we need to be at theprison the next day at 7:00 AM.
(13:16):
Okay.
Basically the inmates only havetwo and a half hours.
the event starts at eight andends at 10:20, so they can be
back in their cells for count at10 30.
So we got there on March 13th,like in the evening and we're
meeting this guy, Ben, who worksat Prison Math Project.
He flew in from Atlanta, he'slike a 22 year old math major,
and he's the PMP representative.
So he's coming with us.
So his role is to do actual mathwith the inmates.
(13:39):
My role is like to pep talk themand MC, we have a couple other
speakers which I'll tell youabout.
And then Ben's role is to do themath.
So we meet Ben and we go out fordinner, and we're like so Ben,
what are you planning on talkingto the inmates about?
And he's like,"have you guysheard of Hilbert's hotel?" And
we're like, no, what is it?
Guys?
I'm actually gonna post video ofhim trying to explain it to us
(14:00):
on Instagram, just go watch it.
He starts explaining thisconcept of like infinity and
like, Like I think the firstthing starts with like, let's
pretend you have a hotel withinfinite rooms.
Okay.
You have infinite rooms andthey're all full.
Okay.
All the rooms are full there'sinfinite rooms and a guest shows
up to the hotel.
How can you make room for them?
Very fascinating, but like, wehad no fucking clue what he was
(14:24):
talking about and he's like thisand that and the other thing,
and like, he's, he, he has nopaper and Sabina is losing her
mind.
She's just like, what are youtalking about?
Anyways, this will come in handylater.
So just remember that we wereall just like, what are you
talking about, this is insane,like good luck with the inmates
tomorrow..
Fine.
We leave dinner.
We're all excited for the nextday.
Me and David are like, we needto get more pies because we were
bringing pies and coffee to theinmates.
(14:45):
We go to a local grocery storeand we're stocking up on like 20
pies.
And the cashier is like, why iseveryone buying pies today?
And then I'm like, oh my God,wait, everyone's buying pies?
And she's like, yeah, mostlyteachers.
So then we tell her it's pi day.
We're so excited.
I was just like, oh, I love thatthis whole town of like Ionia,
Michigan is like getting into PIday.
Fine whatever.
Got up the next morning, we goto Starbucks to get like all of
(15:07):
these coffees, we have like fourgiant carafes of coffees and
we're on our way.
So we're driving and like, keepin mind, it's so early in the
morning it's kind of dark.
And I want you guys to imaginethis because I think I still
have this image in my head ofhow alarming it was that like
we're driving and it's like asmall town and we're like, oh, I
wonder where the prison is.
And then all of a sudden.
Like imagine, like Jurassic parktheme song, the music and all of
(15:31):
a sudden it's like kilometers ofbarbed wire, but like that razor
wire, like just silver glaring,razor wire, and like the
biggest, like hundreds of giantfloodlights.
And we were just like, we'rehere.
And it's like sprawling.
There's like all thesebuildings, but like, it was just
so alarming to see that silverrazor wire, so much of it, so
(15:53):
much of it.
And these giant, giant, giantfloodlight.
Okay.
So we got there and like we gotchecked in, we meet Dave Dirks.
Who's our amazing facilitatorthere.
We get checked by security, I'msure you all want to know what
thoughts like, and they didcheck under our tongues.
So we had to like open ourmouths, look under our tongues
and we had to take our socksoff.
Oh, and we weren't allowed tobring anything with us.
(16:13):
Like not even a pencil, not evena key.
I was allowed to bring in mychapstick, thank God.
Okay.
We go in and we walk intobasically what looked like a
high school auditorium.
And there are the inmates andlike they're seated at tables,
like in rows as though it's aclassroom and they're just
sitting there silently.
Um, well-behaved seems like areally weird word to say, but
(16:35):
that's like the first thing thatstruck me, like, I don't know
what I expected, but probablylike something from Orange is
the New Black, because what elsedo I have to go on?
And they were just sitting theresmiling.
We went in, we put our stuffdown.
And I was like, I guess we'llstart.
And basically I just, I don't, ICan't remember what I did, but I
do remember I started by justbeing like, I just want everyone
(16:56):
to know that I'm really nervousright now.
And they all laughed and I waslike, okay, they're laughing at
my jokes, this is a good sign,like everything's going to be
okay because that's how Iusually feel when someone laughs
at a joke of mine.
And so we started, we startedand basically the structure of
the day was I gave pep talks, Italked about growth mindset,
I'll tell you more about thatlater, but I basically just
(17:16):
talked about why we were there.
I gave mathematical pep talks, Italked about math anxiety and
then it was interspersed withvideo chats from Gary Gordon and
Sunil Singh.
And then Ben, Ben Jeffers, ourpal, taught them math.
So I'll talk about, a bit moreabout the math he did, but he
did like Hilbert's hotel, theinfinity thing, and then he did
another math problem with them.
And we actually did math.
(17:37):
We ate pie, we drank coffee andthen it was done.
And then after we were finishedthe event at 10 30 in the
morning, we got a bit of a tour,we learned some stuff about
Bellamy Correctional and weleft, immediately, got in the
car, hit the record buttonbecause we wanted to capture
exactly how we felt the secondwe left.
Sabina Wex (17:56):
Okay.
We just came from the prison,Bellamy Correctional Facility.
We're leaving the parking lot atthe moment.
I see a watch tower.
I see barbed wire.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:04):
Like so much.
Sabina Wex (18:06):
Yeah, we're just coming out of the Pi Day.
It's 11:21.
Not only did we do our Pi Day,which we had to wrap up at
exactly 10:20 because there wasa count that the prisoners have
to be in their cells for at10:30.
Um, but we also got a tour ofthe facility, so we have a lot
to debrief on.
The three of us, the OG MathTherapy team.
How are we feeling guys?
(18:28):
Vanessa, David?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:28):
Okay.
So I need to start by sayingthank you guys.
Seriously.
Like I really, I really wannajust start by saying thank you
guys so much.
Remember we weren't even gonnacome and we were like, this is
gonna be a shit show.
And like, all of these questionsand like, I'm not gonna speak
for you guys.
You guys are gonna speak in asecond, but I have to say, like,
I, I wouldn't have come withoutyou, and I'm so fucking glad I
(18:49):
did because that was such aspecial experience.
So, but seriously guys, thankyou.
Like that was beyond what Iever, well, like I didn't even
know what to expect, but it wasa million times better than what
I didn't expect.
Sabina Wex (19:01):
Yeah, it was a lot better than I expected.
And also I think in a weird way,I felt very anti-climatic.
Like I think we were like sonervous, unsure what was gonna
happen, but it was actually justlike almost any other talk I've
seen you do, Vanessa.
Like that's what was cool.
It was just actually prettynormal.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:17):
I would say the audience was more receptive
than my normal audiences.
It's hard to not go into it withlike, I'm sorry, but like we
were just completely influencedby media.
So our, yeah, perceptions ofwhat jail is gonna be like, of
what an inmate is gonna be like.
All of those things were in myhead before and I think it was
like I don't know, when I wastalking about like.
(19:38):
Has been a gatekeeper for somany and so many of us are just
taught we can't do things likeso many of them are just like
nodding along.
So I think it's like one ofthose things where it's like,
yeah, I sometimes am like, oh,am I pushing it too far?
Like you know, in a math talk,talking about this kind of
stuff.
But I actually just think like,this is why we started Math
Therapy.
Like this truly is, math reallyis something that at its core,
(19:59):
can oppress or empower peoplelike I really believe that.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
David, sabina, you guys go.
Sabina Wex (20:06):
David, what are your thoughts?
David Kochberg (20:08):
More than anything, I guess I feel like
humbled by the experience.
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot to process becausethere's, yeah, there's like a
room full of guys who are inthere, some have been in there
for decades, some will be inthere for decades and like who
knows what each of their storiesis.
(20:30):
But today, like withoutexaggeration, could be the
highlight of their year, whichis insane for us to think that
way.
But just knowing, like, yeah,hearing from some of the other
people, like some of the staff,there's, this stuff doesn't
happen.
Like this is not, this isextremely unique.
They don't get visitors in andcertainly no one brings
(20:54):
Starbucks in like,
Sabina Wex (20:55):
Oh, they seriously, they were stoked about the
coffee.
They kept being like, oh my God,it's so great you guys brought
coffee and I was, don't you havecoffee in here?
And they're like, it's instant,so this is so good.
They were so excited, that's whythey were all hyped to try the
oat milk.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:09):
I'm sorry.
I just still think that was thehighlight for me, is someone
going, wait, they're milkingoats now?
And Sabina being like, yeah, youshould try, you know, if you're
lactose intolerant, a greatalternative.
Sabina Wex (21:22):
And it was just like I don't know David, if you
noticed this too and Vanessamaybe you did too, but when
David and I were like at onepoint handing out, we had
brought in some pies and cookiesand coffee for the inmates and
we were like handing it out tothem.
Cutting it up for them.
Cause I think they're actuallynot allowed to like touch it
even.
Right.
Because we weren't even allowedknives to cut the pie.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:41):
What were you cutting it with?
Sabina Wex (21:42):
Like forks.
David Kochberg (21:43):
There was one spatula
Sabina Wex (21:45):
Yeah
David Kochberg (21:45):
That, the guy had brought out.
Sabina Wex (21:46):
And they were like, oh my God, thank you so much.
And they individually likethanked both of us for coming
and for doing this and forbringing stuff.
They were like so grateful.
And I guess I didn't realize howbig a deal it was for us to come
there.
Right?
Like obviously it was, I wasmore thinking about myself being
like, so I'm coming to prison,like this is dangerous.
But I was like, this is a bigdeal.
(22:08):
This is a way bigger deal to youthan it is to me.
At first we're like, ha, we'regoing to jail.
How crazy is that?
And now it's like, like Davidsaid, like this made your year,
or for sure your day or yourweek or something thing like.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:19):
Yeah.
And I think also too, I waslike, ugh, I don't want to be
this annoying like saviorcoming, like, you know what I
mean?
Sabina Wex (22:24):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:24):
Like, yeah.
Like us being like, oh my God.
Like it's hard to like, take,not center yourself in the
equation of being like,
Sabina Wex (22:31):
mm-hmm
Vanessa Vakharia (22:32):
We're going to do this thing, da da da da.
And I was so worried aboutsaying something offensive or
coming across as like, oh myGod, I'm some cool person
because I've decided to come toprison.
And I really didn't wanna comeoff that way.
Cause I really was actuallylike, I'm actually thankful
you're like sharing your timewith us.
Like we're just some randomscoming in here talking to you
about math.
Sabina Wex (22:50):
Yeah.
I felt so grateful to them.
I was like, wow, this is a bigdeal for you to come out and do
this.
And also like just when theywere doing the math problems,
when you were talking, when evenwith all the videos, they were
so engaged, so respectful, likereally wanted to hear about it.
David Kochberg (23:05):
When this first came up, I think all of us were
kind of skeptical.
And, but I'm so happy that wecame because it was a
fascinating life experience thatmm-hmm I would never have
otherwise had.
And I think it really wasextremely eye-opening to like
see what even the, the slightesthint slice of life for a
(23:27):
prisoner on the inside of afacility like that.
And just to be in the same roomwith a bunch of actual people it
sort of humanizes the idea ofinmates who are in for a very
long sentence.
And yeah, we can't make too manyassumptions or inferences about
each of their stories.
But just seeing them today, Imean there's lots of problems
(23:50):
with the system and like theguys who are working in the
shops that we saw like workingan eight hour day every day for
like three bucks.
Like that's fucked up.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:01):
No,$2 and 62 cents.
David Kochberg (24:02):
Well, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
Maybe$3 Canadian a day.
David Kochberg (24:04):
That's true.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:05):
Three a day.
David Kochberg (24:06):
I know that's fucked up, but looking on like,
on the positive, how he's sayingthey all love being in there.
Yeah.
Because the alternative is thatthey would just be in their tiny
cell, which is like, probablylike the size of this car.
Yeah.
And just having no hope orpurpose whatsoever.
And so like that's what's reallymeaningful to like even just a,
(24:27):
be a support role for you MCingtoday,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:32):
You guys were a part of it.
You guys probably actuallyinteracted more individually.
Mm-hmm.
One-on-one with them than I did.
Someone was like asking aboutlike your engineering degree,
like all of that stuff, like
David Kochberg (24:41):
Yes, so he was, I think he was saying he's like
early twenties and he he's soyoung.
Was incarcerated when he was 19and he was saying how he's like
always been interested inengineering and he really liked
math and science when he was atschool.
And like, I have no idea whatput him in in prison.
(25:02):
But he was saying that he'sgoing to be going home this
summer, I think, which I assumethat means like his sentence is
up and so he was asking me ifthere's a barrier to pursuing a
career in engineering and like,I have no idea, but it's crazy
to think like this kid, hetechnically could have a new
(25:24):
life ahead of him.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:25):
Right.
David Kochberg (25:26):
But can he?
I don't know.
Like, I don't know how, what theintegration system is, but I was
speaking to our, our host aboutthat and, and like he'll have a
parole officer and it does seemlike they've got a lot of
systems at this facility toactually help rehabilitate the
inmates if they have goodbehavior and, and if they are
committed to it.
So the guys that we all mettoday they're all level two, so
(25:50):
level.
Is very high.
She's the highest in security.
Yeah.
And she's like, the level fiveis like on lockdown basically
every day because there's likefights and they're like, last
week there was like a stabbingand they had to like set, but
these are like, like that reallyhappens.
Yeah.
But these are, so that's likethe maximum security.
These guys that are at level twoand they have a lot more
(26:14):
freedoms because they'veestablished a lot more trust.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:18):
Could they have started at level five and
moved down to level two?
David Kochberg (26:21):
You can move up or down.
Right.
It's obviously way easier tomove down.
Like these guys are all at leveltwo, but like they can fuck up
and be bumped down to level fourand lose all their privileges.
Okay.
Yeah, and it's crazy.
Like there's a sign in the shopthat they showed us around and
so they get tickets and like,it's like a point, like a
demerit system basically.
You get a ticket for,misbehaving basically.
(26:42):
And if you get it enough, youcan be bumped down to a
different level.
So like writing in a textbook,you can get a ticket for it
because you're not allowed todeface property, stuff like
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:55):
It's kind of ridiculous,
Sabina Wex (26:56):
I feel like, cuz it's, they think they're gonna
send a message out or something.
David Kochberg (26:59):
It's true.
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (27:00):
And like it was interesting even the way, like I
found, the way that inmates werespoken about was really, wait,
what were they saying?
Weird.
Like even that sh So we went tothe area where there's a lot of
guys who do like, shop, likethey make cabinets and stuff for
Habitat For Humanity, which isreally nice, but the guy there
was talking about, because, Iwas like, oh, they make these
beautiful like birdhousesgorgeous, gorgeous things they
(27:22):
were making in shop class.
And I was like, oh, why can'tthey just bring it to their
selves with them, like as adecoration or kind of like a
reward to be like, oh, look, youmade something really impactful
and you can keep it and it'syours.
And they're like, oh no, likethey're gonna take one strip of
wood and turn it into a shankand like, duh duh.
And like, I'm sure that happens.
I don't wanna be like dismissiveof that.
(27:43):
But I was just like, oh my God,this is really like, you're
always thinking the worst.
I guess you kind of have to, butyeah, that's like a tough one.
David Kochberg (27:52):
Yeah.
I think unfortunately it's, itis justified like, like that's
from experience.
Sabina Wex (27:55):
Sure.
I'm sure.
Like I've never obviously workedin a prison.
I've never even been to a prisontill today, but I was just like,
oh wow.
What a hard thing to do, to goin somewhere, you know, you've
obviously done something enoughthat you have to be put in
prison for it, and then you haveall these people basically being
like we assume that you aregonna hurt someone else, and do
(28:17):
something bad.
Like basically really like noteven giving you the benefit of
the doubt.
That was hard to hear, eventhough I get it.
I was just like, yeah, ugh.
This is so,
David Kochberg (28:26):
Yeah, it's dehumanizing for sure.
And none of us are experts in,because yeah, it, what else can
you do?
Sabina Wex (28:33):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (28:33):
Like if someone said, like we were in a room
with of people who probably havemurdered people, which is crazy
to think, but then also I.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:42):
I can't even wrap my head around.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (28:44):
But then also, like we were also at the same
time in a room with like a bunchof guys who were just really
nice and friendly and polite.
Sabina Wex (28:49):
Yes.
David Kochberg (28:50):
And, and had a great time talking about math
for a couple hours, so it's likecrazy disconnect, but then
mm-hmm in terms of like, what,what can society do differently?
That's a way bigger questionbeyond our knowledge or ability.
But that's why I just tried togo into it just thinking, what
can we do ourselves to just likemake their day a bit better?
(29:15):
Yeah, and I think we've verymuch did that in a lot of ways.
We can't think too far ahead interms of what is their whole
life.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:24):
Right.
David Kochberg (29:26):
But even just for one day, because yeah, they
don't have a whole lot ofdignity in there.
Right.
So I think that something thatfeels good is that we treated
them with a lot of dignity andrespect.
Which I think probably meant alot to them.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:40):
I also like makes, think of like, I don't
know that John Mighton meantthis, of course I have to bring
him up.
But, like he's talking about itin a different way, but he talks
about how math is the greatequalizer and, like just the
idea of mathematical thinking asthe great equalizer.
Like in that room we're talkingabout math and we're like the
conversations are like, oh wait,that's such a cool way of
thinking about it.
And like, how did you come tothat solution?
Like, it's kind of likeeverything else fades away and
(30:00):
you're like, we're all justtalking about how to solve a
problem together.
Yeah.
Which is like very, it is kindof the great equalizer because
actually a lot of them knew moreabout math than I did.
David Kochberg (30:11):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (30:11):
Well that's what was cool, was like Travis, who is
kind of the main PMP guy at thisprison, when he first got in, he
was really unfocused.
He was young too, he was 19, hewas, you know, angry, whatever.
And math gave him like such asense of calm and purpose and
order.
And now he's like this exemplaryinmate, he's become like
(30:33):
basically a totally differentperson.
And it's like, oh, maybe thisshould be a rehabilitation
program in more prisons, whichis, I know what PMP is trying to
do.
But it's like, wow, like, Idon't think people would
necessarily put math and prisontogether.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:46):
No, never.
It would be like the last thing,and people always would assume
that like, we do that with mathanyway, we'd be like, there's no
way they can understand it, likethey're incapable, like it's too
advanced.
Whereas like it's kind of theopposite, like, I'm sorry.
When the shop guy was telling usabout why they can't let a, an
inmate take a pen out, it'sbecause they'll take the pen
apart and to turn the coil intosomething where you can boil
(31:07):
water and then they'll turn theother part into like a tattoo
gun.
They are some of the mostcreative thinkers.
Sabina Wex (31:13):
Yeah, and they're like so scientific and even that
guy who came up when Ben wasdoing his fucking crazy infinity
Hilbert's hotel problem, andthis guy just comes up and did
the answer, like had a way ofthinking about it where I'm
like, you got it?
Like this took not no trainingobviously, but like you're
thinking deeply about somethinglike you can get there, which is
(31:33):
so cool.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:34):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (31:35):
And even Ben was saying like the problems he was
giving them, he's like, yeah,what's good about these problems
is you don't actually have tohave technical training.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:41):
Right.
Sabina Wex (31:41):
But you can problem solve them, which I thought was
really cool.
David Kochberg (31:45):
And it was a cool mix between and what Ben
was doing and what your approachis because he's presenting these
like complex mathematicalproblems.
And you are also balancing thatlike it's okay if you have no
idea what he's saying, becauseeven if you are trying to think
(32:06):
about this ridiculous nonsenseexploration of infinity, you're
thinking about it.
And that in itself is a goodactivity to just be like
challenging yourself to thinkand you can only imagine how
absent that opportunitytypically is for them to just be
like thinking creatively aboutjust an interesting problem for
(32:27):
its own sake.
And that was cool that you gaveTravis an opportunity to stand
up and speak about his storybriefly, and then also field
questions because you could seesome of these other guys who
maybe would've been hesitant toparticipate or get up and speak
or something like he can be arole model for them and create a
(32:51):
bit more connection and sense ofcommunity and maybe for them to
think about themselvesdifferently.
Like you gave up a bunch ofreally great pep talks as you
typically do.
Cause yeah, like we've heard yougive the, or I certainly more
than anyone have heard you givelike a lot of these, speeches or
pep talks many a time.
(33:12):
But it was especially resonantand, and like pretty crazy for
me to think about like whatthese, the implications of the
lessons that you're sharing withthese guys who they're the
people that society forgets themost.
Sabina Wex (33:28):
When we were hanging out with them.
I was like, I didn't reallythink of them as prisoners
necessarily, like once we got toknow them a bit.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:34):
Me neither.
I actually couldn't put the twotogether.
What David is saying, it's like,yeah, that disconnect.
I'm like, yeah, I knowcerebrally that we were in a
prison and you've committed acrime.
Plus exactly like when you hearabout this stuff, which is the
only way we interact with it, ifyou hear about it on the news or
something, it is completelydehumanized or the person is
painted in a very particular waythat is so incongruous with what
(33:55):
we just saw, so there is a lotgoing on there.
And also obviously now I'm likethinking about all these things
I wished I said, so we justwon't even get into that cause
Exactly.
We'll go into my impostersyndrome.
David Kochberg (34:06):
No, no, no.
Sabina Wex (34:07):
You were great.
You were really good.
Everybody was super into it andlike, staff were so excited.
The inmates were so excited.
Like everybody was stoked.
Everyone liked it.
Like the warden came to us to belike, this was great.
This sounds like it went reallywell.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:20):
Well, hopefully the word spreads, I
hope this is one of those thingswhere everyone's talking about
it enough that like, they'relike, oh fuck, like it sounds
like this is actually reallygood.
Yeah,
Sabina Wex (34:29):
I'm sure those prisoners are gonna go tell
their cellmate to be like, oh, Ijust did this cool thing.
David Kochberg (34:35):
Yeah.
Everyone was appreciative, likethe inmates, but then also the
staff.
Sabina Wex (34:38):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (34:39):
They were all really appreciative of us coming
and doing this.
Sabina Wex (34:45):
Okay.
Shall I stop recording?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did that make any sense to youguys?
I feel like we're like all shellshocked and just feeling very
like contemplated andexistential about our first time
in prison.
But seriously guys, it was suchan incredible experience, and
we've all been thinking about itevery single day since March
14th.
And I wanted to share some ofthe reflections and thoughts
(35:06):
that I've been having as Iprocessed how grateful I am, I
mean, we all are, to have beengiven this opportunity.
The first thing I want to talkabout is when I got in there, so
after I finished telling them Iwas nervous and stuff, I Started
by saying,"who's here for themath and who's here for the free
pie".
And they honestly, like a few ofthem were there for the math,
but a lot of them were justlike, yeah, we're just here from
(35:28):
the pie, like, we don't knowanything about math.
And then I asked who had mathanxiety and a bunch of them
raise their hands.
And I know, you know, I alwaysthink it's so cool, like, often
I give talks to teachers andstudents, and I always think
it's like very courageous toactually raise your hand and,
admit that, right?
It can be something people feelvery self-conscious about.
And I feel like it really warmedup the room for everyone to sort
(35:51):
of, like keep in mind there werepeople in there that don't even
have their high school diploma.
Right?
And we know how pervasive mathtrauma is, and I'm sure,
convicted felons, like any othersegment of the population
definitely have a highproportion of math trauma and
math anxiety.
So I thought that was really,really amazing.
that we could start off the dayby saying, yeah, not all of us
(36:11):
are here for the math, not allof us are comfortable with math,
and some of us have mathanxiety.
And that opened up the floor forme to talk about my experiences
and to say, hey, that's normal.
It's normal for you to have mathanxiety in here and on the
outside or whatever.
Like this is a common thing.
People have math anxiety and ithas nothing to do with your
(36:31):
capability to do math.
And I think that was a veryimportant message.
I explained that I suffer frommath anxiety in situations too.
It doesn't mean I'm not good atmath.
And that shouldn't preclude usfrom trying.
So then I actually talked aboutgrowth mindset and I actually
hadn't planned to, like, Iactually didn't plan anything I
was going to say, because I justlike that's who I am.
(36:52):
But.
as I started talking about it, Iwas like, oh my God, we take it
so for granted especially ineducation, we assume everyone
like just knows what growthmindset is.
Right?
Which I actually think is aproblem because I think we use
the term a lot and a lot ofpeople say it, but they don't
know exactly what it means.
And these inmates definitelydidn't know, who would have told
them about growth mindset, manyof them, right?
(37:15):
So I thought it was so powerfulto talk about our actual brains,
that we have neural pathwaysthat you know, we can change,
the way we see ourselves ascapable as, of math, we can
change our responses to math.
But what we were going to bedoing that day for two and a
half hours, while it was math, Ikind of was like, it's going to
(37:36):
show you guys that we canchange.
Period.
That our brains can change.
And one of the coolest thingsthat happened is that the end of
the two and a half hours, I saidbecause, oh my God, Ben had
ended with his Hilbert's hotelthing, okay, so everyone was
just like, what the fuck isgoing on?
I was like, Do your brains hurtand all of them were like, yes.
(37:58):
And I said, you have all thoughtone or many more new thoughts in
the past two and a half hours,it is proof that you can think
of things a different way, it isproof that your, your brain is
different now than it was at thebeginning of the two and a half
hours.
And, and it was just everyonejust cheered.
It was like the coolest thing,because that's what I always say
(38:18):
about math.
Like, I don't care about themath, like fine, it's cool.
But through teaching math,through helping people feel like
an inch more capable of math,you are showing them that they
have the ability to change, togrow, to think different ways,
to develop new habits.
Like, okay, I'm getting like alllike worked up now, but I I was
(38:38):
really glad I went on thattangent because I was like, this
is what it's actually about.
And what was so funny is, as Itold you guys, only some of them
were there for the math at thebeginning, but by the end, they
all were, all of them were like,yep.
I want to sign up for PrisonMath Project.
They all started like, coming upwith things they were interested
in.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like some of them were like,yeah, I've always been
interested in science and insolving puzzles, another inmate
(39:02):
who had a Scorpio tattoo, soI'll call him, Scorpio was like,
"you know what, when I was inschool, I could never really pay
attention to stuff, and I alwaysgot in trouble for not showing
my work, but I've always been socurious about how things work.
And do you think I can get anengineering degree when I'm out
of here?" And he was actuallyone of, one of the inmates that
got up in front of the wholegroup and, you know, was trying
(39:22):
to solve a math problem.
And he was like,"hey guys,here's how I tried to solve this
problem.
I got stuck at this step.
Can anyone help me out?" So I'lltalk about more about the math
later, but I thought it was socool that all of them are kind
of like, wow, we have felt thetiniest inkling of growth.
We have been challenged to thinkin a way that no one believed in
us to think before, maybe?
It was just a very, very coolthing, and I, it kind of made me
(39:44):
wonder, what does this tell usabout the way we teach math?
And about the relationship partof teaching math.
What does it tell us that wewalked into a room of inmates,
most of whom do not think ofthemselves as mathematically
capable and by the end of twohours, all of them were
interested in learning more.
What does that tell us about theway, you know, somebody, an
instructor at the front of theroom, or maybe not at the front
(40:07):
of the room, makes it clear thatthey believe in their audience
and in their students.
So like just, I was leftthinking all of those things.
Another thing I thought wasreally interesting is so when
Ben taught the, so Ben askedthis question, okay, you guys
will probably like it.
The first problem, the firstmath problem we worked on, he
said,"so you guys have sixdifferent flavored pies, like
apple, peach, blueberry,whatever.
(40:29):
How many different orders canyou eat them in?" Now, some of
you might know that the answeris six factorial, but most of
them did not know what afactorial was.
No, some of them did becauseactually, uh, one of the inmates
there, Travis Cunningham, he'sbeen a part of the prison math
project for a bit of time.
And he does six hours of mathevery day in his cell, and he
was there saying,"if you guyshave questions about how I got
(40:52):
involved, or you need math help,come up to me".
So he did know, a couple of themknew, but like most of them
don't know what a factorial is.
Again, they don't have highschool diplomas a lot at them.
But what was so fascinating is,and you hear this a lot about
sort of asking questions likethis, where there are many
different entry points.
This could be considered Ithink, a low floor, high ceiling
(41:12):
exercise.
You could know what a factorialis, you could know the formula
to solve it, but you also canwork it out.
Right?
You can logic it out.
It might take a bit of time, butyou can.
And it was so funny when heasked that question, every
single person went to work.
Some people didn't know what tostart.
Some people, we encouragedpeople to get into groups and to
talk.
Some people were trying tofigure things out.
You know, Scorpio was like, oh,I knew the formula for this at
(41:34):
one point.
And I was like, forgot theformula.
Let's think about it.
How would you figure it out?
Some of them were making treediagrams, charts, slots.
Like there were so many coolways of watching them all try to
solve the problem.
And that was what the, one ofthe coolest things was like.
It reminds me of Peter Liljedahla bit to be like, when you focus
on the thinking, right?
(41:54):
Like forget what the rightanswer is, when you just focus
on thinking and collaborating,and curiosity and wonder they
were all in flow.
They were all doing it.
And then when Ben was like, whowants to come up and show their
work?
Most of them did not have thequote unquote right answer, but
they were all happy to come upand show what they had done and
to see if anyone could help thembuild on that, to get to the
answer.
There really didn't seem to bemuch ego or much like
(42:18):
embarrassment of getting thewrong answer.
It was the curiosity, it was thetrying, it was the thinking, it
was the collaborating that waskind of on display.
And I thought that was really,really cool.
Because again, like, in school,things are so different.
We're so focused on getting theright answer, we're so focused
on marks.
It was interesting to see whenyou take that away, what's left
(42:39):
is true mathematics.
Okay.
So the other thing is when Benbrought up Hilbert's hotel,
okay, whereas me, Sabina, andDavid had been like, what the
fuck, Ben?
These inmates were all into it.
Actually, one of them had aninfinity tattoo, which I thought
was so cool.
Their minds were blown.
Now, okay, look.
If you ask a question like ahotel has infinite rooms,
(43:02):
they're all full and a guestshows up, can we fit them in?
Right.
Like in a normal math classroom,people are going to be like,
what's the answer.
They were like, the questionsthey were asking were great.
some of them were like, whatkind of hotel room is this?
Like, one of them was like,that's like maximum security
prison, anyways, whatever,prison jokes.
But like people, they werereally contemplating it.
(43:22):
They were really trying to solvethe problem and their minds were
blown and they liked it.
They loved how hard it was, theyloved how challenging it was.
Again, like it wasn't aboutgetting the right answer.
It was about being like, wow,I'm feeling my brain grow.
Like I'm learning things at mytable from other, you know, my
peers that like, I've neverthought of before.
It was just very, very cool.
Also, I have to tell you guysthis part.
So we mentioned in the recordingthat we went to like visit this
(43:45):
like factory thing where theyall work in.
And the shop teacher showed us apen, he like pulls out a pen and
he's like, you could never leavethis pen, like lying around.
And we're like, why?
And he's like, because theywould take it apart, they would
turn the ink into a tattoo gun,they would take the coil out of
the pen and they'd figure out away to hook it up so it boiled
water, and I'm sitting therethinking holy shit, are these
(44:07):
the engineers of our time,right?
Like it's like the creativity,like it's it just blows my mind.
Look, I know we're talking aboutinmates.
I know we're talking about likesomething specific, but to me it
just shows that the mostoverlooked people in math are
often the ones with the mostcreative ways of thinking, the
most non-traditional creativeways of thinking, aren't those
(44:28):
the people we need in STEMfields.
Like aren't those the people weshould be encouraging to think,
to think out of the box to like,I don't know, it was just, I
thought it was so cool, but Iwas also like, yep, this is why
we are missing the mark when itcomes to math.
Oh, another thing I was thinkingis.
cause we all left and we werelike, they need math therapy,
like, see what happened in twoand a half hours, like, you
(44:49):
know, everyone learned theirbrains could grow and there was
such high morale.
And I was like, why do we haveart therapy, but not math
therapy.
It's because we don't thinkpeople are capable of
mathematical thinking and theopposite is true.
It's like it is therapeutic tochallenge your brain.
It is therapeutic to showyourself you can grow and learn
and think in a way you can't, oryou've never been able to, like
(45:11):
that is therapeutic.
When you're not results driven,when you're not saying the only
important thing is the rightanswer, when you're not doing it
for marks, mathematical thinkingcan be spiritual.
It can be meditative.
It can be beautiful.
It can be empowering.
And that reminds me of whatwe're really missing.
You know, Travis Cunningham, theinmate I told you about he's in
there for another, I think 10,12 years, he's the one who has
(45:33):
been doing math every day forsix hours.
he kinda got up in front ofeveryone and he said, I know
this might sound ridiculous, butyou know, once I started doing
math, I really started seeingbeauty in it.
I really found it spiritual.
I really found it to be ameditation.
And Christopher Havens said thesame thing, and I think math can
be so oppressive, so traumatic,or it can be so healing and so
(45:55):
empowering.
I guess like, my finalreflection is just, you know,
I'm not going to get into all oftheir backgrounds and we
certainly don't know all oftheir backgrounds and stories,
but I remember ChristopherHavens has said this to me on
our episode of the podcast thatlike, certainly it's not because
he had a bad relationship withmath or was like excluded from
the math classroom or anythinglike that, that he committed a
crime.
(46:15):
But it is a common thread.
I heard this from a lot of theseinmates that they had sort of
been overlooked.
They were directionless.
No one really believed in themand you know, Christopher has
said this, that he ended upgetting involved with like a bad
crowd and doing drugs and doinghis thing because he just wanted
it to be cool, he had noconfidence.
And I really wonder, like,again, I always think of math as
(46:35):
so much more than math.
It is a divider between thosewho can and those who can, it is
the arbiter of who'sintelligent.
It's, you know, uh, a symbol ofwho belongs and who's deserving.
And what if we, what if we tookthat a little more seriously?
I think that's why it was soamazing.
We were only there for two and ahalf hours.
I don't want to be like, oh myGod, we're these crazy saviors
(46:56):
and we changed their lives.
No.
But I hope that that two and ahalf hours of knowing someone
believes in you and knowingyou're capable in something you
might've been written off frommade a difference.
I mean, I have new thoughtsevery day, but I guess what I'm
really left reflecting upon ishow are we getting it so wrong?
Just watching 25 inmates, someof whom don't even have a high
school diploma working togetherto eagerly and curiously solve a
(47:19):
university level math problemjust did it for me.
When grades aren't involved andrelationships are built when
collaboration is encouraged,when everyone is invited to the
table, that's when the mostmeaningful math happens, and
when the most math learners areable to blossom.
Yet that is the completeopposite of what happens and
what has been historicallyhappening in most math
classrooms.
Anyways, that's a rant foranother episode, but for now
(47:40):
guys, I have to say thank youfor listening and thank you for
letting me outer processstraight to your ears, I needed
it.
As I mentioned earlier on theepisode, every single one of the
25 inmates, we spoke to filledout a Prison Math Project for
them to be matched with a mathmentor, which is amazing, but
daunting for an organizationthat currently runs on
volunteers and incarceratedmembers.
So, if you want to make adonation, be a math mentor or
(48:02):
volunteer at some othercapacity, Head to
prisonmathproject.org.
They would love to have you.
Thank you so much for listening.
I mean, I've so many otherreflections.
I'm sure I didn't covereverything I could have, so if
you have a question, post it inthe YouTube comments on this
episode, tweet me at The MathGuru or at Math Therapy, head to
Instagram at The Math Guru andcomment on a post related to
(48:24):
this episode.
I would love to answer yourquestions, and you will find the
website to Prison Math Projectplus, oh my God, we have some
pictures from the day becausethere was a photographer there.
You'll find that all in the shownotes for this episode.
Thank you for listening, staytuned, and happy belated Pi Day!
Hello and happy Pi Day everyone.
Oh my god, this is so exciting.
Okay, so if you're listening andyou're like, I'm sorry, what?
Happy Pi Day?
Let me explain.
Pi Day is March 14th becauseit's the third month and the
14th day, so 3.14, which arelike the approximate digits of
Pi.
So it's a very exciting time.
It is more important to me thanmy birthday, I like to celebrate
(00:20):
every year.
You should be baking a pie rightnow.
You do you.
But this year I figured we wouldcelebrate by re airing our most
epic Pi Day episode yet.
So if you've been following thepodcast for a while you'll know
that a few seasons ago weinterviewed Christopher Havens
who was an inmate in prison,there for committing murder, but
discovered math and it totallychanged his life.
(00:41):
It was an incredibly movingepisode and last year he invited
the entire Math Therapy team togo to prison and do math with
the inmates.
It was the most incredibleexperience and we recorded an
episode based on it, but weweren't able to air it until
like way after Pi Day last year.
So this year we figured we'regoing to re air it today on Pi
Day so you can listen to itagain if you already have or if
(01:03):
you're a new follower of thepodcast you can listen to it for
the first time.
Whatever you're doing, whetherthat made sense or not, I don't
know.
The point is happy Pi Day.
Listen to this episode, it'samazing, go eat a pie, yes,
pizza counts.
Yay 3.14.
By the way, one more quickthing.
Season six of Math Therapy isofficially dropping in two weeks
on March 28th.
(01:26):
Okay guys, today we maybe haveone of the craziest episodes
ever, like no hyperbole, Iswear.
Let me start by saying that theMath Therapy team went to prison
for PI Day.
Like we crossed the border intoMichigan and went to prison for
Pi Day.
Okay.
I just want to like, get thatout of the way, but okay, let me
back up.
(01:46):
Some of you might rememberseason 3, episode 10, when I
interviewed Christopher Havens,a convicted felon, who's
currently serving a 25 yearmurder sentence.
Now, like the story is crazy.
You have to listen to theepisode, but in short,
Christopher Havens was in themiddle of a 25 year sentence,
he's in solitary confinement,and somebody passes an envelope
of math puzzles under his door.
(02:08):
It forever changes his life, andhe is now in the process of
rehabilitating with math, and hehas started the Prison
Mathematics Project, which is anorganization aimed at helping
inmates across the USrehabilitate with math.
Obviously listen to the wholeepisode because there was way
more to it, but that's a shortsummary.
So Christopher and I have keptin touch over the past few
years, and it has been a goal ofhis to actually bring Prison
(02:32):
Math Project to inmates, IRL oneday.
But the barriers have beencrazy.
I mean like first there wasCOVID, but additionally, we
learned that it's shockinglyhard to get most correctional
facilities to actually agree toallowing the prisoners to
receive any more than the bareminimum when it comes to
education.
But this year the stars alignedand one prison called the
Bellamy Creek CorrectionalFacility in Michigan, agreed to
(02:54):
let Prison Math Project host aPi Day celebration for their
inmates.
Okay.
So you're probably like, that'sgreat, but how did you possibly
got involved and that's a greatquestion that I ask myself every
day, no joke.
And the simple answer isChristopher asked me to host it.
Trust me, when I got the call, Iwas simultaneously like,
absolutely yes hell no, but Iknew deep down, this was
(03:15):
something I had to say yes to,no matter how scary or new or
weird it sounded.
And I knew I wasn't going to doit alone, obviously.
The second I got off the phonewith Christopher, I begged
Sabina and David, AKA the O GMath Therapy team, to agree to
this crazy adventure with me,and they said, yes.
But like truthfully, I thinkDavid said yes, just because he
was terrified of what wouldhappen if he said no, and I was
(03:37):
left to fend for myself, likecruising on into a prison,
wearing full velvet with no onethere to chaperone me.
But guys, I'm so glad we alljust trusted our intuition
because we literally had alife-changing experience I know
that none of us will everforget.
So luckily for us Sabina, AKAthe true reporter she is,
brought along a handheldrecorder, and we documented the
(03:59):
before and after of our time onthe inside, as they say in the
movies.
I'm going to play you guys whatwe recorded and then I'm going
to pipe in here and there tofill in the blanks.
So what you're about to hearfirst is a recording of us in
the car on a six hour drive fromToronto to Michigan, headed to
Bellamy Creek CorrectionalFacility on March 13th, the day
(04:19):
before Pi Day.
Sabina Wex (04:20):
Okay.
We just wanna go on the recordabout how we're feeling about
going to jail right now.
David, do you wanna explain thecontext?
I feel like you're good at it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:28):
Yeah.
Where are we off
David Kochberg (04:29):
Now we are suddenly representatives of the
Prison Math Project.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:34):
That's correct.
David Kochberg (04:35):
Having a year or two ago conducted an interview
where Vanessa spoke to inmateChristopher Havens who
rehabilitated himself withmathematics.
And he invited Vanessa to MCtomorrow's Pi Day celebrations
at Bellamy Correctional Facilityin Michigan.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:54):
What's the vibe fam?
Sabina Wex (04:56):
How are we feeling in general?
Vanessa Vakharia (04:57):
So I'm feeling, I will say at the
beginning, like the weeksleading up, I was like feeling
kind of stressed and nervousabout it.
I was kind of like, oh my God.
I have no idea what I'm doingand I still feel that way.
I have no clue what I'm doing.
Like, are they gonna hate me?
Or am I gonna say somethingoffensive?
Like that kind of thing.
Sabina Wex (05:12):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:13):
But I have to say, as I've been speaking more
and more to Christopher and he'skind of just been like, listen,
no matter what happens, it'sgoing to be great.
no matter what, we're on anadventure.
We've never done this.
So that's very cool.
Number two, regardless of how itturns out, we are well
intentioned and we've done asmuch research as possible and
asked as many questions aspossible, and we're, this is
what the podcast is for, this islike why we recorded the
(05:34):
episode.
And also I just feel good thatyou guys are here.
You know what I mean?
So I'm, I'm kind of actually nowin the phase of like, yep, who
knows what's gonna happen,there's only so much you can
organize when you're dealingwith prison, like there's only
so much you can organize andknow beforehand.
I'm kind of like excited for theadventure.
What about you?
Sabina Wex (05:51):
Yeah, I agree.
Leading up when you called me Iwas like, this sounds like a
shit show, this is gonna be sobad.
We're gonna drive eight hoursfor no fucking reason.
Like we're gonna be in there forliterally 30 minutes,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:00):
Which still might happen.
Sabina Wex (06:02):
It still could happen.
But now I'm like, it's justreally weird.
And honestly, I'm veryinterested to see what happens.
Yeah.
And I do, I do have a goodfeeling about it.
And like, I think it's gonna belike, we're so nervous.
We keep being like, we havestuff printed out for the border
guards in case they ask, we areso prepared for the prison
guards when they like need totake stuff from us, but I feel
like they're just gonna be like,come on in.
(06:24):
Like, I could be totally wrong.
I've never been to a prisonbefore in my life.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:28):
Same
Sabina Wex (06:29):
Or a jail or anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:30):
And we're going to an American.
You have?
David Kochberg (06:32):
No, I don't think I have.
Sabina Wex (06:33):
None of us have been to prison.
So it's definitely a newexperience.
And like you said, Americanprisons, like there's all this
baggage.
I really don't know what toexpect and I don't think we
could really prepare anymore.
Like I think we just have to go.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (06:44):
And just act like our normal selves.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:46):
Which is hard because we like also, I will say
I did have a full dream lastnight that we went to the
prison, but it was like our bandwas playing and there were all
these people there andChristopher was like, oh, you
don't need a mic.
And I was like, how's anyonegonna hear me?
There's hundreds of people.
And then I also said to both ofyou, I was like, I was really
scared someone was gonna put melike in the hole cause that's
what you hear about always.
And I was like, if you don't seeme in 10 minutes, like come look
(07:06):
for me.
But it wasn't like a scary dreamactually, but like I did have a
whole dream about it.
David Kochberg (07:11):
So you dreamt that during a show you got
placed in solitary confinement?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:14):
No, but like I didn't, but I was scared I was
going to, and I like told you
David Kochberg (07:17):
Because your performance wasn't good enough?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:20):
No, I,
David Kochberg (07:21):
Because you committed a crime during the
show?
Vanessa Vakharia (07:23):
Just the concept of the hole, like when I
was talking to Christopher onthe phone, yeah, yesterday he
was like,
David Kochberg (07:28):
He does keeps saying, he does keep referring
to it as the hole
Vanessa Vakharia (07:31):
Like he was talking about, he was talking
about this guy, TravisCunningham, that he wanted that
apparently he is gonna be there.
And he was like, he was like,yeah, he's actually really taken
on this role and he's like doingall this math stuff on his own.
And we couldn't get in touchwith him for two years because
of like all of the red tape ofthe prison system and how hard
it is to get in touch withinmates.
And he was like, and their mailwasn't working and he was like,
(07:51):
and for a while I thought maybehe was in the hole.
And I was like, wait.
I thought that was just inmovies, like fucking Murder in
the First with Kevin Bacon.
Like that's actually so scary.
Yeah.
That people get put in solitaryconfinement.
Like, I thought it actuallyreally creeps me out.
David Kochberg (08:04):
Yeah, there's a, I think a lot of controversy
around that.
I mean, this is a, a muchbroader conversation, but yeah,
if the whole point of acorrections facility is to help
rehabilitate prisoners, but howmuch actual rehabilitation goes
on.
But that's what's cool aboutbeing involved in an, an event
like this.
And that's what's cool aboutwhat Christopher does with this
(08:25):
project, is that it isproactively trying to do
something to helprehabilitation.
Mm-hmm.
So that's why it is cool to beinvolved and like make this
trek.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:34):
I feel like we're gonna, I'm nervous that
I'm gonna get really upset whenI like, see how little they're
allowed to do.
Like Christopher's alwaystalking about how it's so hard
to actually mobilize this thingbecause, so the reason we're
going to Bellamy by the way, isnot because he's there.
It's because it's one of the fewprisons in the entire system
that will allow educational workto take place, which is actually
(08:56):
really upsetting.
And he's not allowed to do thisin his prison.
Sabina Wex (09:00):
Yeah.
I'm also worried about beinglike, I'm deeply upset by the
state of this.
David Kochberg (09:06):
Well, I don't think we should be getting too
emotionally invested.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:10):
Yeah, but how do you not, it's like when you
see a homeless person, like, Iget upset right away.
David Kochberg (09:14):
Yeah.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tcare, like we're going because
we care, but I think we don'tknow anything about any of,
these people, the prisoners thatwe are going to meet.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:23):
Right.
David Kochberg (09:23):
And you can't have the context on all of them.
who knows what they've done andhow they've ended up in prison,
and that's not really our placeto be figuring that out.
Sabina Wex (09:36):
Yeah, I agree.
None of us are gonna be like,what did you do?
Like that's not the conversationwe're having.
Okay.
Do we have anything else wewanna put on before we get
going?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:44):
I mean, the best thing we can do is just get
comfortable with uncertainty atthis point.
David Kochberg (09:48):
Yeah.
It's just an interestinglearning experience.
And in terms of the actualprisoners there, likely, they
have very boring, regimentedlives, I mean, Christopher was
saying like, this kind of thingdoesn't happen that much.
They don't get right visitors orspeakers ever, if at all, and
not often.
So I'm just looking at it as,well, I mean, you're gonna do
(10:12):
all the talking there, but you
Vanessa Vakharia (10:14):
Feel free to pipe in.
David Kochberg (10:15):
Well, we'll participate, but like you are
the host.
Sabina Wex (10:17):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (10:17):
Like you're the MC.
We're here as part of the team.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:20):
Sure.
David Kochberg (10:20):
But yeah, you're the whole point of
rehabilitation or of thisproject, the Prison Math
Project, is to humanizeprisoners and yeah, we don't
have to or want to know whythey're in prison, but they're
in prison.
And the whole point is to notjust give up on people because
they've done something like theymade a mistake earlier in their
(10:41):
lives.
And as far as we need to analyzeit in advance, it's just we're
doing something to help brightentheir pi day and give them
something a little different intheir lives and maybe be a tiny
part in giving them a bit ofhope.
And if they're showing up tothis event, then they're
probably interested in math, soyou're just playing a part in
(11:03):
facilitating that interest leveland just a tiny little thing
that can hopefully help in theirrehabilitation journey.
But yeah, otherwise there is noway to predict what it's gonna
be like.
Which is cool for us, likethat's just an interesting
experience that we otherwisewould never have had.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:19):
Yeah.
The thing I'm most scared aboutactually is just how early it
is.
David Kochberg (11:23):
But you're a relatively early bird.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:25):
No, but like, it's like we have to be there at
like 7:15 in the morning, likethat's early.
Sabina Wex (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
David Kochberg (11:29):
Yeah.
I'm terrified about that part.
Sabina Wex (11:30):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (11:31):
But I feel like I'll be, so, I'll be so tired,
that then I will be, I'll be tootired to be like stressed, I
guess so.
Sabina Wex (11:39):
Oh, that's a, that's a good idea.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:39):
Yeah, that's a good point.
And also this event is two and ahalf hours.
It's so quick, like, I'm kind ofnervous it's gonna go by too
fast.
Sabina Wex (11:46):
It's okay.
We'll do some more debriefs.
We'll do, this is great.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:50):
Okay.
Wow.
It's so crazy to listen back tothat now, and to think of how
young and innocent we were whenwe're walking through those
prison doors.
I mean, like I'm half joking,but I'm half serious.
Before I tell you guys whatactually happened.
I need to clarify by the waythat the border guard did not
just let us cruise right intoMichigan as Sabina suggested.
First of all, I get so nervousevery time I crossed the border,
(12:12):
like, I don't know if it's justme, but you're just like, oh my
God, they're not going to let mein, whatever.
And especially on this occasion,because I was like, our story is
insane.
So we're about to go in and theguard's like, why are you going?
And we're like, well, it'sactually PI day tomorrow, like
March 14th.
And he's like, k, whatever.
And we're like, we're going toteach math to inmates in a
prison.
And he, he goes,"why?".
(12:33):
And we're like, because we,like, we, it's PI day, and we're
volunteering to teach math tothe inmates.
And he's like, well, why you?
And I'm like, oh, like I'm amath teacher, this and that.
And he's like, are you makingmoney?
And I'm like, oh no.
And he's like,"so then why".
Have you heard of volunteering?
Anyways, he finally, like, I waslike, dude, listen to how cool
(12:55):
this is.
And then I told them all aboutChristopher Havens and he like,
I don't know, he like raised aneyebrow, he seemed kind of
interested.
And then he was like, k,whatever, go in.
Anyways.
Now that we've clarified that,here's what PI day in prison
actually looked like.
Okay.
So I'm just gonna explain to youguys what happened.
So, first of all, we got thereMarch 13th, we got into Michigan
and we're, we need to be at theprison the next day at 7:00 AM.
(13:16):
Okay.
Basically the inmates only havetwo and a half hours.
the event starts at eight andends at 10:20, so they can be
back in their cells for count at10 30.
So we got there on March 13th,like in the evening and we're
meeting this guy, Ben, who worksat Prison Math Project.
He flew in from Atlanta, he'slike a 22 year old math major,
and he's the PMP representative.
So he's coming with us.
So his role is to do actual mathwith the inmates.
(13:39):
My role is like to pep talk themand MC, we have a couple other
speakers which I'll tell youabout.
And then Ben's role is to do themath.
So we meet Ben and we go out fordinner, and we're like so Ben,
what are you planning on talkingto the inmates about?
And he's like,"have you guysheard of Hilbert's hotel?" And
we're like, no, what is it?
Guys?
I'm actually gonna post video ofhim trying to explain it to us
(14:00):
on Instagram, just go watch it.
He starts explaining thisconcept of like infinity and
like, Like I think the firstthing starts with like, let's
pretend you have a hotel withinfinite rooms.
Okay.
You have infinite rooms andthey're all full.
Okay.
All the rooms are full there'sinfinite rooms and a guest shows
up to the hotel.
How can you make room for them?
Very fascinating, but like, wehad no fucking clue what he was
(14:24):
talking about and he's like thisand that and the other thing,
and like, he's, he, he has nopaper and Sabina is losing her
mind.
She's just like, what are youtalking about?
Anyways, this will come in handylater.
So just remember that we wereall just like, what are you
talking about, this is insane,like good luck with the inmates
tomorrow..
Fine.
We leave dinner.
We're all excited for the nextday.
Me and David are like, we needto get more pies because we were
bringing pies and coffee to theinmates.
(14:45):
We go to a local grocery storeand we're stocking up on like 20
pies.
And the cashier is like, why iseveryone buying pies today?
And then I'm like, oh my God,wait, everyone's buying pies?
And she's like, yeah, mostlyteachers.
So then we tell her it's pi day.
We're so excited.
I was just like, oh, I love thatthis whole town of like Ionia,
Michigan is like getting into PIday.
Fine whatever.
Got up the next morning, we goto Starbucks to get like all of
(15:07):
these coffees, we have like fourgiant carafes of coffees and
we're on our way.
So we're driving and like, keepin mind, it's so early in the
morning it's kind of dark.
And I want you guys to imaginethis because I think I still
have this image in my head ofhow alarming it was that like
we're driving and it's like asmall town and we're like, oh, I
wonder where the prison is.
And then all of a sudden.
Like imagine, like Jurassic parktheme song, the music and all of
(15:31):
a sudden it's like kilometers ofbarbed wire, but like that razor
wire, like just silver glaring,razor wire, and like the
biggest, like hundreds of giantfloodlights.
And we were just like, we'rehere.
And it's like sprawling.
There's like all thesebuildings, but like, it was just
so alarming to see that silverrazor wire, so much of it, so
(15:53):
much of it.
And these giant, giant, giantfloodlight.
Okay.
So we got there and like we gotchecked in, we meet Dave Dirks.
Who's our amazing facilitatorthere.
We get checked by security, I'msure you all want to know what
thoughts like, and they didcheck under our tongues.
So we had to like open ourmouths, look under our tongues
and we had to take our socksoff.
Oh, and we weren't allowed tobring anything with us.
(16:13):
Like not even a pencil, not evena key.
I was allowed to bring in mychapstick, thank God.
Okay.
We go in and we walk intobasically what looked like a
high school auditorium.
And there are the inmates andlike they're seated at tables,
like in rows as though it's aclassroom and they're just
sitting there silently.
Um, well-behaved seems like areally weird word to say, but
(16:35):
that's like the first thing thatstruck me, like, I don't know
what I expected, but probablylike something from Orange is
the New Black, because what elsedo I have to go on?
And they were just sitting theresmiling.
We went in, we put our stuffdown.
And I was like, I guess we'llstart.
And basically I just, I don't, ICan't remember what I did, but I
do remember I started by justbeing like, I just want everyone
(16:56):
to know that I'm really nervousright now.
And they all laughed and I waslike, okay, they're laughing at
my jokes, this is a good sign,like everything's going to be
okay because that's how Iusually feel when someone laughs
at a joke of mine.
And so we started, we startedand basically the structure of
the day was I gave pep talks, Italked about growth mindset,
I'll tell you more about thatlater, but I basically just
(17:16):
talked about why we were there.
I gave mathematical pep talks, Italked about math anxiety and
then it was interspersed withvideo chats from Gary Gordon and
Sunil Singh.
And then Ben, Ben Jeffers, ourpal, taught them math.
So I'll talk about, a bit moreabout the math he did, but he
did like Hilbert's hotel, theinfinity thing, and then he did
another math problem with them.
And we actually did math.
(17:37):
We ate pie, we drank coffee andthen it was done.
And then after we were finishedthe event at 10 30 in the
morning, we got a bit of a tour,we learned some stuff about
Bellamy Correctional and weleft, immediately, got in the
car, hit the record buttonbecause we wanted to capture
exactly how we felt the secondwe left.
Sabina Wex (17:56):
Okay.
We just came from the prison,Bellamy Correctional Facility.
We're leaving the parking lot atthe moment.
I see a watch tower.
I see barbed wire.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:04):
Like so much.
Sabina Wex (18:06):
Yeah, we're just coming out of the Pi Day.
It's 11:21.
Not only did we do our Pi Day,which we had to wrap up at
exactly 10:20 because there wasa count that the prisoners have
to be in their cells for at10:30.
Um, but we also got a tour ofthe facility, so we have a lot
to debrief on.
The three of us, the OG MathTherapy team.
How are we feeling guys?
(18:28):
Vanessa, David?
Vanessa Vakharia (18:28):
Okay.
So I need to start by sayingthank you guys.
Seriously.
Like I really, I really wannajust start by saying thank you
guys so much.
Remember we weren't even gonnacome and we were like, this is
gonna be a shit show.
And like, all of these questionsand like, I'm not gonna speak
for you guys.
You guys are gonna speak in asecond, but I have to say, like,
I, I wouldn't have come withoutyou, and I'm so fucking glad I
(18:49):
did because that was such aspecial experience.
So, but seriously guys, thankyou.
Like that was beyond what Iever, well, like I didn't even
know what to expect, but it wasa million times better than what
I didn't expect.
Sabina Wex (19:01):
Yeah, it was a lot better than I expected.
And also I think in a weird way,I felt very anti-climatic.
Like I think we were like sonervous, unsure what was gonna
happen, but it was actually justlike almost any other talk I've
seen you do, Vanessa.
Like that's what was cool.
It was just actually prettynormal.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:17):
I would say the audience was more receptive
than my normal audiences.
It's hard to not go into it withlike, I'm sorry, but like we
were just completely influencedby media.
So our, yeah, perceptions ofwhat jail is gonna be like, of
what an inmate is gonna be like.
All of those things were in myhead before and I think it was
like I don't know, when I wastalking about like.
(19:38):
Has been a gatekeeper for somany and so many of us are just
taught we can't do things likeso many of them are just like
nodding along.
So I think it's like one ofthose things where it's like,
yeah, I sometimes am like, oh,am I pushing it too far?
Like you know, in a math talk,talking about this kind of
stuff.
But I actually just think like,this is why we started Math
Therapy.
Like this truly is, math reallyis something that at its core,
(19:59):
can oppress or empower peoplelike I really believe that.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
David, sabina, you guys go.
Sabina Wex (20:06):
David, what are your thoughts?
David Kochberg (20:08):
More than anything, I guess I feel like
humbled by the experience.
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot to process becausethere's, yeah, there's like a
room full of guys who are inthere, some have been in there
for decades, some will be inthere for decades and like who
knows what each of their storiesis.
(20:30):
But today, like withoutexaggeration, could be the
highlight of their year, whichis insane for us to think that
way.
But just knowing, like, yeah,hearing from some of the other
people, like some of the staff,there's, this stuff doesn't
happen.
Like this is not, this isextremely unique.
They don't get visitors in andcertainly no one brings
(20:54):
Starbucks in like,
Sabina Wex (20:55):
Oh, they seriously, they were stoked about the
coffee.
They kept being like, oh my God,it's so great you guys brought
coffee and I was, don't you havecoffee in here?
And they're like, it's instant,so this is so good.
They were so excited, that's whythey were all hyped to try the
oat milk.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:09):
I'm sorry.
I just still think that was thehighlight for me, is someone
going, wait, they're milkingoats now?
And Sabina being like, yeah, youshould try, you know, if you're
lactose intolerant, a greatalternative.
Sabina Wex (21:22):
And it was just like I don't know David, if you
noticed this too and Vanessamaybe you did too, but when
David and I were like at onepoint handing out, we had
brought in some pies and cookiesand coffee for the inmates and
we were like handing it out tothem.
Cutting it up for them.
Cause I think they're actuallynot allowed to like touch it
even.
Right.
Because we weren't even allowedknives to cut the pie.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:41):
What were you cutting it with?
Sabina Wex (21:42):
Like forks.
David Kochberg (21:43):
There was one spatula
Sabina Wex (21:45):
Yeah
David Kochberg (21:45):
That, the guy had brought out.
Sabina Wex (21:46):
And they were like, oh my God, thank you so much.
And they individually likethanked both of us for coming
and for doing this and forbringing stuff.
They were like so grateful.
And I guess I didn't realize howbig a deal it was for us to come
there.
Right?
Like obviously it was, I wasmore thinking about myself being
like, so I'm coming to prison,like this is dangerous.
But I was like, this is a bigdeal.
(22:08):
This is a way bigger deal to youthan it is to me.
At first we're like, ha, we'regoing to jail.
How crazy is that?
And now it's like, like Davidsaid, like this made your year,
or for sure your day or yourweek or something thing like.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:19):
Yeah.
And I think also too, I waslike, ugh, I don't want to be
this annoying like saviorcoming, like, you know what I
mean?
Sabina Wex (22:24):
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:24):
Like, yeah.
Like us being like, oh my God.
Like it's hard to like, take,not center yourself in the
equation of being like,
Sabina Wex (22:31):
mm-hmm
Vanessa Vakharia (22:32):
We're going to do this thing, da da da da.
And I was so worried aboutsaying something offensive or
coming across as like, oh myGod, I'm some cool person
because I've decided to come toprison.
And I really didn't wanna comeoff that way.
Cause I really was actuallylike, I'm actually thankful
you're like sharing your timewith us.
Like we're just some randomscoming in here talking to you
about math.
Sabina Wex (22:50):
Yeah.
I felt so grateful to them.
I was like, wow, this is a bigdeal for you to come out and do
this.
And also like just when theywere doing the math problems,
when you were talking, when evenwith all the videos, they were
so engaged, so respectful, likereally wanted to hear about it.
David Kochberg (23:05):
When this first came up, I think all of us were
kind of skeptical.
And, but I'm so happy that wecame because it was a
fascinating life experience thatmm-hmm I would never have
otherwise had.
And I think it really wasextremely eye-opening to like
see what even the, the slightesthint slice of life for a
(23:27):
prisoner on the inside of afacility like that.
And just to be in the same roomwith a bunch of actual people it
sort of humanizes the idea ofinmates who are in for a very
long sentence.
And yeah, we can't make too manyassumptions or inferences about
each of their stories.
But just seeing them today, Imean there's lots of problems
(23:50):
with the system and like theguys who are working in the
shops that we saw like workingan eight hour day every day for
like three bucks.
Like that's fucked up.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:01):
No,$2 and 62 cents.
David Kochberg (24:02):
Well, yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:03):
Maybe$3 Canadian a day.
David Kochberg (24:04):
That's true.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:05):
Three a day.
David Kochberg (24:06):
I know that's fucked up, but looking on like,
on the positive, how he's sayingthey all love being in there.
Yeah.
Because the alternative is thatthey would just be in their tiny
cell, which is like, probablylike the size of this car.
Yeah.
And just having no hope orpurpose whatsoever.
And so like that's what's reallymeaningful to like even just a,
(24:27):
be a support role for you MCingtoday,
Vanessa Vakharia (24:32):
You guys were a part of it.
You guys probably actuallyinteracted more individually.
Mm-hmm.
One-on-one with them than I did.
Someone was like asking aboutlike your engineering degree,
like all of that stuff, like
David Kochberg (24:41):
Yes, so he was, I think he was saying he's like
early twenties and he he's soyoung.
Was incarcerated when he was 19and he was saying how he's like
always been interested inengineering and he really liked
math and science when he was atschool.
And like, I have no idea whatput him in in prison.
(25:02):
But he was saying that he'sgoing to be going home this
summer, I think, which I assumethat means like his sentence is
up and so he was asking me ifthere's a barrier to pursuing a
career in engineering and like,I have no idea, but it's crazy
to think like this kid, hetechnically could have a new
(25:24):
life ahead of him.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:25):
Right.
David Kochberg (25:26):
But can he?
I don't know.
Like, I don't know how, what theintegration system is, but I was
speaking to our, our host aboutthat and, and like he'll have a
parole officer and it does seemlike they've got a lot of
systems at this facility toactually help rehabilitate the
inmates if they have goodbehavior and, and if they are
committed to it.
So the guys that we all mettoday they're all level two, so
(25:50):
level.
Is very high.
She's the highest in security.
Yeah.
And she's like, the level fiveis like on lockdown basically
every day because there's likefights and they're like, last
week there was like a stabbingand they had to like set, but
these are like, like that reallyhappens.
Yeah.
But these are, so that's likethe maximum security.
These guys that are at level twoand they have a lot more
(26:14):
freedoms because they'veestablished a lot more trust.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:18):
Could they have started at level five and
moved down to level two?
David Kochberg (26:21):
You can move up or down.
Right.
It's obviously way easier tomove down.
Like these guys are all at leveltwo, but like they can fuck up
and be bumped down to level fourand lose all their privileges.
Okay.
Yeah, and it's crazy.
Like there's a sign in the shopthat they showed us around and
so they get tickets and like,it's like a point, like a
demerit system basically.
You get a ticket for,misbehaving basically.
(26:42):
And if you get it enough, youcan be bumped down to a
different level.
So like writing in a textbook,you can get a ticket for it
because you're not allowed todeface property, stuff like
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:55):
It's kind of ridiculous,
Sabina Wex (26:56):
I feel like, cuz it's, they think they're gonna
send a message out or something.
David Kochberg (26:59):
It's true.
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (27:00):
And like it was interesting even the way, like I
found, the way that inmates werespoken about was really, wait,
what were they saying?
Weird.
Like even that sh So we went tothe area where there's a lot of
guys who do like, shop, likethey make cabinets and stuff for
Habitat For Humanity, which isreally nice, but the guy there
was talking about, because, Iwas like, oh, they make these
beautiful like birdhousesgorgeous, gorgeous things they
(27:22):
were making in shop class.
And I was like, oh, why can'tthey just bring it to their
selves with them, like as adecoration or kind of like a
reward to be like, oh, look, youmade something really impactful
and you can keep it and it'syours.
And they're like, oh no, likethey're gonna take one strip of
wood and turn it into a shankand like, duh duh.
And like, I'm sure that happens.
I don't wanna be like dismissiveof that.
(27:43):
But I was just like, oh my God,this is really like, you're
always thinking the worst.
I guess you kind of have to, butyeah, that's like a tough one.
David Kochberg (27:52):
Yeah.
I think unfortunately it's, itis justified like, like that's
from experience.
Sabina Wex (27:55):
Sure.
I'm sure.
Like I've never obviously workedin a prison.
I've never even been to a prisontill today, but I was just like,
oh wow.
What a hard thing to do, to goin somewhere, you know, you've
obviously done something enoughthat you have to be put in
prison for it, and then you haveall these people basically being
like we assume that you aregonna hurt someone else, and do
(28:17):
something bad.
Like basically really like noteven giving you the benefit of
the doubt.
That was hard to hear, eventhough I get it.
I was just like, yeah, ugh.
This is so,
David Kochberg (28:26):
Yeah, it's dehumanizing for sure.
And none of us are experts in,because yeah, it, what else can
you do?
Sabina Wex (28:33):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (28:33):
Like if someone said, like we were in a room
with of people who probably havemurdered people, which is crazy
to think, but then also I.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:42):
I can't even wrap my head around.
Yeah.
David Kochberg (28:44):
But then also, like we were also at the same
time in a room with like a bunchof guys who were just really
nice and friendly and polite.
Sabina Wex (28:49):
Yes.
David Kochberg (28:50):
And, and had a great time talking about math
for a couple hours, so it's likecrazy disconnect, but then
mm-hmm in terms of like, what,what can society do differently?
That's a way bigger questionbeyond our knowledge or ability.
But that's why I just tried togo into it just thinking, what
can we do ourselves to just likemake their day a bit better?
(29:15):
Yeah, and I think we've verymuch did that in a lot of ways.
We can't think too far ahead interms of what is their whole
life.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:24):
Right.
David Kochberg (29:26):
But even just for one day, because yeah, they
don't have a whole lot ofdignity in there.
Right.
So I think that something thatfeels good is that we treated
them with a lot of dignity andrespect.
Which I think probably meant alot to them.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:40):
I also like makes, think of like, I don't
know that John Mighton meantthis, of course I have to bring
him up.
But, like he's talking about itin a different way, but he talks
about how math is the greatequalizer and, like just the
idea of mathematical thinking asthe great equalizer.
Like in that room we're talkingabout math and we're like the
conversations are like, oh wait,that's such a cool way of
thinking about it.
And like, how did you come tothat solution?
Like, it's kind of likeeverything else fades away and
(30:00):
you're like, we're all justtalking about how to solve a
problem together.
Yeah.
Which is like very, it is kindof the great equalizer because
actually a lot of them knew moreabout math than I did.
David Kochberg (30:11):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (30:11):
Well that's what was cool, was like Travis, who is
kind of the main PMP guy at thisprison, when he first got in, he
was really unfocused.
He was young too, he was 19, hewas, you know, angry, whatever.
And math gave him like such asense of calm and purpose and
order.
And now he's like this exemplaryinmate, he's become like
(30:33):
basically a totally differentperson.
And it's like, oh, maybe thisshould be a rehabilitation
program in more prisons, whichis, I know what PMP is trying to
do.
But it's like, wow, like, Idon't think people would
necessarily put math and prisontogether.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:46):
No, never.
It would be like the last thing,and people always would assume
that like, we do that with mathanyway, we'd be like, there's no
way they can understand it, likethey're incapable, like it's too
advanced.
Whereas like it's kind of theopposite, like, I'm sorry.
When the shop guy was telling usabout why they can't let a, an
inmate take a pen out, it'sbecause they'll take the pen
apart and to turn the coil intosomething where you can boil
(31:07):
water and then they'll turn theother part into like a tattoo
gun.
They are some of the mostcreative thinkers.
Sabina Wex (31:13):
Yeah, and they're like so scientific and even that
guy who came up when Ben wasdoing his fucking crazy infinity
Hilbert's hotel problem, andthis guy just comes up and did
the answer, like had a way ofthinking about it where I'm
like, you got it?
Like this took not no trainingobviously, but like you're
thinking deeply about somethinglike you can get there, which is
(31:33):
so cool.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:34):
Yeah.
Sabina Wex (31:35):
And even Ben was saying like the problems he was
giving them, he's like, yeah,what's good about these problems
is you don't actually have tohave technical training.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:41):
Right.
Sabina Wex (31:41):
But you can problem solve them, which I thought was
really cool.
David Kochberg (31:45):
And it was a cool mix between and what Ben
was doing and what your approachis because he's presenting these
like complex mathematicalproblems.
And you are also balancing thatlike it's okay if you have no
idea what he's saying, becauseeven if you are trying to think
(32:06):
about this ridiculous nonsenseexploration of infinity, you're
thinking about it.
And that in itself is a goodactivity to just be like
challenging yourself to thinkand you can only imagine how
absent that opportunitytypically is for them to just be
like thinking creatively aboutjust an interesting problem for
(32:27):
its own sake.
And that was cool that you gaveTravis an opportunity to stand
up and speak about his storybriefly, and then also field
questions because you could seesome of these other guys who
maybe would've been hesitant toparticipate or get up and speak
or something like he can be arole model for them and create a
(32:51):
bit more connection and sense ofcommunity and maybe for them to
think about themselvesdifferently.
Like you gave up a bunch ofreally great pep talks as you
typically do.
Cause yeah, like we've heard yougive the, or I certainly more
than anyone have heard you givelike a lot of these, speeches or
pep talks many a time.
(33:12):
But it was especially resonantand, and like pretty crazy for
me to think about like whatthese, the implications of the
lessons that you're sharing withthese guys who they're the
people that society forgets themost.
Sabina Wex (33:28):
When we were hanging out with them.
I was like, I didn't reallythink of them as prisoners
necessarily, like once we got toknow them a bit.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:34):
Me neither.
I actually couldn't put the twotogether.
What David is saying, it's like,yeah, that disconnect.
I'm like, yeah, I knowcerebrally that we were in a
prison and you've committed acrime.
Plus exactly like when you hearabout this stuff, which is the
only way we interact with it, ifyou hear about it on the news or
something, it is completelydehumanized or the person is
painted in a very particular waythat is so incongruous with what
(33:55):
we just saw, so there is a lotgoing on there.
And also obviously now I'm likethinking about all these things
I wished I said, so we justwon't even get into that cause
Exactly.
We'll go into my impostersyndrome.
David Kochberg (34:06):
No, no, no.
Sabina Wex (34:07):
You were great.
You were really good.
Everybody was super into it andlike, staff were so excited.
The inmates were so excited.
Like everybody was stoked.
Everyone liked it.
Like the warden came to us to belike, this was great.
This sounds like it went reallywell.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:20):
Well, hopefully the word spreads, I
hope this is one of those thingswhere everyone's talking about
it enough that like, they'relike, oh fuck, like it sounds
like this is actually reallygood.
Yeah,
Sabina Wex (34:29):
I'm sure those prisoners are gonna go tell
their cellmate to be like, oh, Ijust did this cool thing.
David Kochberg (34:35):
Yeah.
Everyone was appreciative, likethe inmates, but then also the
staff.
Sabina Wex (34:38):
Yeah.
David Kochberg (34:39):
They were all really appreciative of us coming
and doing this.
Sabina Wex (34:45):
Okay.
Shall I stop recording?
Vanessa Vakharia (34:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did that make any sense to youguys?
I feel like we're like all shellshocked and just feeling very
like contemplated andexistential about our first time
in prison.
But seriously guys, it was suchan incredible experience, and
we've all been thinking about itevery single day since March
14th.
And I wanted to share some ofthe reflections and thoughts
(35:06):
that I've been having as Iprocessed how grateful I am, I
mean, we all are, to have beengiven this opportunity.
The first thing I want to talkabout is when I got in there, so
after I finished telling them Iwas nervous and stuff, I Started
by saying,"who's here for themath and who's here for the free
pie".
And they honestly, like a few ofthem were there for the math,
but a lot of them were justlike, yeah, we're just here from
(35:28):
the pie, like, we don't knowanything about math.
And then I asked who had mathanxiety and a bunch of them
raise their hands.
And I know, you know, I alwaysthink it's so cool, like, often
I give talks to teachers andstudents, and I always think
it's like very courageous toactually raise your hand and,
admit that, right?
It can be something people feelvery self-conscious about.
And I feel like it really warmedup the room for everyone to sort
(35:51):
of, like keep in mind there werepeople in there that don't even
have their high school diploma.
Right?
And we know how pervasive mathtrauma is, and I'm sure,
convicted felons, like any othersegment of the population
definitely have a highproportion of math trauma and
math anxiety.
So I thought that was really,really amazing.
that we could start off the dayby saying, yeah, not all of us
(36:11):
are here for the math, not allof us are comfortable with math,
and some of us have mathanxiety.
And that opened up the floor forme to talk about my experiences
and to say, hey, that's normal.
It's normal for you to have mathanxiety in here and on the
outside or whatever.
Like this is a common thing.
People have math anxiety and ithas nothing to do with your
(36:31):
capability to do math.
And I think that was a veryimportant message.
I explained that I suffer frommath anxiety in situations too.
It doesn't mean I'm not good atmath.
And that shouldn't preclude usfrom trying.
So then I actually talked aboutgrowth mindset and I actually
hadn't planned to, like, Iactually didn't plan anything I
was going to say, because I justlike that's who I am.
(36:52):
But.
as I started talking about it, Iwas like, oh my God, we take it
so for granted especially ineducation, we assume everyone
like just knows what growthmindset is.
Right?
Which I actually think is aproblem because I think we use
the term a lot and a lot ofpeople say it, but they don't
know exactly what it means.
And these inmates definitelydidn't know, who would have told
them about growth mindset, manyof them, right?
(37:15):
So I thought it was so powerfulto talk about our actual brains,
that we have neural pathwaysthat you know, we can change,
the way we see ourselves ascapable as, of math, we can
change our responses to math.
But what we were going to bedoing that day for two and a
half hours, while it was math, Ikind of was like, it's going to
(37:36):
show you guys that we canchange.
Period.
That our brains can change.
And one of the coolest thingsthat happened is that the end of
the two and a half hours, I saidbecause, oh my God, Ben had
ended with his Hilbert's hotelthing, okay, so everyone was
just like, what the fuck isgoing on?
I was like, Do your brains hurtand all of them were like, yes.
(37:58):
And I said, you have all thoughtone or many more new thoughts in
the past two and a half hours,it is proof that you can think
of things a different way, it isproof that your, your brain is
different now than it was at thebeginning of the two and a half
hours.
And, and it was just everyonejust cheered.
It was like the coolest thing,because that's what I always say
(38:18):
about math.
Like, I don't care about themath, like fine, it's cool.
But through teaching math,through helping people feel like
an inch more capable of math,you are showing them that they
have the ability to change, togrow, to think different ways,
to develop new habits.
Like, okay, I'm getting like alllike worked up now, but I I was
(38:38):
really glad I went on thattangent because I was like, this
is what it's actually about.
And what was so funny is, as Itold you guys, only some of them
were there for the math at thebeginning, but by the end, they
all were, all of them were like,yep.
I want to sign up for PrisonMath Project.
They all started like, coming upwith things they were interested
in.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like some of them were like,yeah, I've always been
interested in science and insolving puzzles, another inmate
(39:02):
who had a Scorpio tattoo, soI'll call him, Scorpio was like,
"you know what, when I was inschool, I could never really pay
attention to stuff, and I alwaysgot in trouble for not showing
my work, but I've always been socurious about how things work.
And do you think I can get anengineering degree when I'm out
of here?" And he was actuallyone of, one of the inmates that
got up in front of the wholegroup and, you know, was trying
(39:22):
to solve a math problem.
And he was like,"hey guys,here's how I tried to solve this
problem.
I got stuck at this step.
Can anyone help me out?" So I'lltalk about more about the math
later, but I thought it was socool that all of them are kind
of like, wow, we have felt thetiniest inkling of growth.
We have been challenged to thinkin a way that no one believed in
us to think before, maybe?
It was just a very, very coolthing, and I, it kind of made me
(39:44):
wonder, what does this tell usabout the way we teach math?
And about the relationship partof teaching math.
What does it tell us that wewalked into a room of inmates,
most of whom do not think ofthemselves as mathematically
capable and by the end of twohours, all of them were
interested in learning more.
What does that tell us about theway, you know, somebody, an
instructor at the front of theroom, or maybe not at the front
(40:07):
of the room, makes it clear thatthey believe in their audience
and in their students.
So like just, I was leftthinking all of those things.
Another thing I thought wasreally interesting is so when
Ben taught the, so Ben askedthis question, okay, you guys
will probably like it.
The first problem, the firstmath problem we worked on, he
said,"so you guys have sixdifferent flavored pies, like
apple, peach, blueberry,whatever.
(40:29):
How many different orders canyou eat them in?" Now, some of
you might know that the answeris six factorial, but most of
them did not know what afactorial was.
No, some of them did becauseactually, uh, one of the inmates
there, Travis Cunningham, he'sbeen a part of the prison math
project for a bit of time.
And he does six hours of mathevery day in his cell, and he
was there saying,"if you guyshave questions about how I got
(40:52):
involved, or you need math help,come up to me".
So he did know, a couple of themknew, but like most of them
don't know what a factorial is.
Again, they don't have highschool diplomas a lot at them.
But what was so fascinating is,and you hear this a lot about
sort of asking questions likethis, where there are many
different entry points.
This could be considered Ithink, a low floor, high ceiling
(41:12):
exercise.
You could know what a factorialis, you could know the formula
to solve it, but you also canwork it out.
Right?
You can logic it out.
It might take a bit of time, butyou can.
And it was so funny when heasked that question, every
single person went to work.
Some people didn't know what tostart.
Some people, we encouragedpeople to get into groups and to
talk.
Some people were trying tofigure things out.
You know, Scorpio was like, oh,I knew the formula for this at
(41:34):
one point.
And I was like, forgot theformula.
Let's think about it.
How would you figure it out?
Some of them were making treediagrams, charts, slots.
Like there were so many coolways of watching them all try to
solve the problem.
And that was what the, one ofthe coolest things was like.
It reminds me of Peter Liljedahla bit to be like, when you focus
on the thinking, right?
(41:54):
Like forget what the rightanswer is, when you just focus
on thinking and collaborating,and curiosity and wonder they
were all in flow.
They were all doing it.
And then when Ben was like, whowants to come up and show their
work?
Most of them did not have thequote unquote right answer, but
they were all happy to come upand show what they had done and
to see if anyone could help thembuild on that, to get to the
answer.
There really didn't seem to bemuch ego or much like
(42:18):
embarrassment of getting thewrong answer.
It was the curiosity, it was thetrying, it was the thinking, it
was the collaborating that waskind of on display.
And I thought that was really,really cool.
Because again, like, in school,things are so different.
We're so focused on getting theright answer, we're so focused
on marks.
It was interesting to see whenyou take that away, what's left
(42:39):
is true mathematics.
Okay.
So the other thing is when Benbrought up Hilbert's hotel,
okay, whereas me, Sabina, andDavid had been like, what the
fuck, Ben?
These inmates were all into it.
Actually, one of them had aninfinity tattoo, which I thought
was so cool.
Their minds were blown.
Now, okay, look.
If you ask a question like ahotel has infinite rooms,
(43:02):
they're all full and a guestshows up, can we fit them in?
Right.
Like in a normal math classroom,people are going to be like,
what's the answer.
They were like, the questionsthey were asking were great.
some of them were like, whatkind of hotel room is this?
Like, one of them was like,that's like maximum security
prison, anyways, whatever,prison jokes.
But like people, they werereally contemplating it.
(43:22):
They were really trying to solvethe problem and their minds were
blown and they liked it.
They loved how hard it was, theyloved how challenging it was.
Again, like it wasn't aboutgetting the right answer.
It was about being like, wow,I'm feeling my brain grow.
Like I'm learning things at mytable from other, you know, my
peers that like, I've neverthought of before.
It was just very, very cool.
Also, I have to tell you guysthis part.
So we mentioned in the recordingthat we went to like visit this
(43:45):
like factory thing where theyall work in.
And the shop teacher showed us apen, he like pulls out a pen and
he's like, you could never leavethis pen, like lying around.
And we're like, why?
And he's like, because theywould take it apart, they would
turn the ink into a tattoo gun,they would take the coil out of
the pen and they'd figure out away to hook it up so it boiled
water, and I'm sitting therethinking holy shit, are these
(44:07):
the engineers of our time,right?
Like it's like the creativity,like it's it just blows my mind.
Look, I know we're talking aboutinmates.
I know we're talking about likesomething specific, but to me it
just shows that the mostoverlooked people in math are
often the ones with the mostcreative ways of thinking, the
most non-traditional creativeways of thinking, aren't those
(44:28):
the people we need in STEMfields.
Like aren't those the people weshould be encouraging to think,
to think out of the box to like,I don't know, it was just, I
thought it was so cool, but Iwas also like, yep, this is why
we are missing the mark when itcomes to math.
Oh, another thing I was thinkingis.
cause we all left and we werelike, they need math therapy,
like, see what happened in twoand a half hours, like, you
(44:49):
know, everyone learned theirbrains could grow and there was
such high morale.
And I was like, why do we haveart therapy, but not math
therapy.
It's because we don't thinkpeople are capable of
mathematical thinking and theopposite is true.
It's like it is therapeutic tochallenge your brain.
It is therapeutic to showyourself you can grow and learn
and think in a way you can't, oryou've never been able to, like
(45:11):
that is therapeutic.
When you're not results driven,when you're not saying the only
important thing is the rightanswer, when you're not doing it
for marks, mathematical thinkingcan be spiritual.
It can be meditative.
It can be beautiful.
It can be empowering.
And that reminds me of whatwe're really missing.
You know, Travis Cunningham, theinmate I told you about he's in
there for another, I think 10,12 years, he's the one who has
(45:33):
been doing math every day forsix hours.
he kinda got up in front ofeveryone and he said, I know
this might sound ridiculous, butyou know, once I started doing
math, I really started seeingbeauty in it.
I really found it spiritual.
I really found it to be ameditation.
And Christopher Havens said thesame thing, and I think math can
be so oppressive, so traumatic,or it can be so healing and so
(45:55):
empowering.
I guess like, my finalreflection is just, you know,
I'm not going to get into all oftheir backgrounds and we
certainly don't know all oftheir backgrounds and stories,
but I remember ChristopherHavens has said this to me on
our episode of the podcast thatlike, certainly it's not because
he had a bad relationship withmath or was like excluded from
the math classroom or anythinglike that, that he committed a
crime.
(46:15):
But it is a common thread.
I heard this from a lot of theseinmates that they had sort of
been overlooked.
They were directionless.
No one really believed in themand you know, Christopher has
said this, that he ended upgetting involved with like a bad
crowd and doing drugs and doinghis thing because he just wanted
it to be cool, he had noconfidence.
And I really wonder, like,again, I always think of math as
(46:35):
so much more than math.
It is a divider between thosewho can and those who can, it is
the arbiter of who'sintelligent.
It's, you know, uh, a symbol ofwho belongs and who's deserving.
And what if we, what if we tookthat a little more seriously?
I think that's why it was soamazing.
We were only there for two and ahalf hours.
I don't want to be like, oh myGod, we're these crazy saviors
(46:56):
and we changed their lives.
No.
But I hope that that two and ahalf hours of knowing someone
believes in you and knowingyou're capable in something you
might've been written off frommade a difference.
I mean, I have new thoughtsevery day, but I guess what I'm
really left reflecting upon ishow are we getting it so wrong?
Just watching 25 inmates, someof whom don't even have a high
school diploma working togetherto eagerly and curiously solve a
(47:19):
university level math problemjust did it for me.
When grades aren't involved andrelationships are built when
collaboration is encouraged,when everyone is invited to the
table, that's when the mostmeaningful math happens, and
when the most math learners areable to blossom.
Yet that is the completeopposite of what happens and
what has been historicallyhappening in most math
classrooms.
Anyways, that's a rant foranother episode, but for now
(47:40):
guys, I have to say thank youfor listening and thank you for
letting me outer processstraight to your ears, I needed
it.
As I mentioned earlier on theepisode, every single one of the
25 inmates, we spoke to filledout a Prison Math Project for
them to be matched with a mathmentor, which is amazing, but
daunting for an organizationthat currently runs on
volunteers and incarceratedmembers.
So, if you want to make adonation, be a math mentor or
(48:02):
volunteer at some othercapacity, Head to
prisonmathproject.org.
They would love to have you.
Thank you so much for listening.
I mean, I've so many otherreflections.
I'm sure I didn't covereverything I could have, so if
you have a question, post it inthe YouTube comments on this
episode, tweet me at The MathGuru or at Math Therapy, head to
Instagram at The Math Guru andcomment on a post related to
(48:24):
this episode.
I would love to answer yourquestions, and you will find the
website to Prison Math Projectplus, oh my God, we have some
pictures from the day becausethere was a photographer there.
You'll find that all in the shownotes for this episode.
Thank you for listening, staytuned, and happy belated Pi Day!
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!