April 25, 2024 • 36 mins
We’re often talking about trauma from the student perspective: how it happens in the classroom, and how it follows them into adulthood. But one group is often overlooked in this discussion - teachers! Today Vanessa chats with educator Brittany Hege about the challenges teachers often face in keeping up with changing pedagogies, while already being strapped for time and often struggling with math traumas of their own! This is an honest and heartfelt discussion about how education can evolve without leaving either students or teachers behind, how shame in the classroom can lead to anxiety for both, and how curiosity and community can lay the path to healing.
About Brittany (Website, Insta, YouTube, LinkedIn, Twitter)
Brittany Hege is a math educator who has worked with students and teachers in both upper elementary and middle grades. She holds a master's degree in Elementary Mathematics Education and is passionate about helping teachers grow their understanding of the math concepts they teach. Brittany believes in the power of experiencing math through hands-on work and uses her platform, Mix and Math, to equip upper elementary teachers with the knowledge and confidence to inspire a generation of empowered math learners.
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Brittany Hege (00:02):
I think every teaching experience is also a
learning experience.
Like I've never been in aclassroom with students where
I've not learned something aboutthe math that I'm teaching
Vanessa Vakharia (00:13):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:35):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, I am so excited abouttoday's guest because here's how
I've been feeling lately andmaybe you can relate.
There are so many new ways thatteachers are being told to teach
their students these days.
Like the frameworks, thepedagogies, the this, the that.
It's so overwhelming and I mean,think of how many different
people I've interviewed on thispodcast who have developed a new
(00:58):
approach to teaching.
Like even I'm here peddling thiswhole math therapy thing to
whoever I can get to listen.
So I guess, hi, I'm the problem,it's me?
Okay, well my point is most ofus who are teachers, were never
taught the way we're nowexpected to teach.
And even that keeps changing.
And what's more, there seems tobe little to no support for
teachers to help them figure outall of these new ways to best
(01:19):
deliver content to students.
And so many teachers have theirown math trauma and are nervous
enough already, like it's toomuch.
But today's guest is here tohelp us all.
Brittany Hege is an incrediblemath educator and content
creator, and we chatted aboutthe ways education can evolve
without leaving either studentsor teachers behind.
She also explains how shame inthe classroom can lead to
(01:39):
anxiety and the healing power ofcuriosity and community.
And now I've been talking forway too long, so here's
Brittany.
So, you are in a way sodifferent from the rest of my
guests because I, I realize thatI rarely speak to my guests
about math.
You know, we're often talkingabout math trauma in students,
we're very rarely talking aboutmath trauma in teachers.
(02:01):
And what I love about what youdo is your whole thing is like,
teachers these days are expectedto teach in a way that they
weren't taught, and that can beso triggering, I don't think
these are your words, but in mymind, I'm like, that can trigger
their math trauma.
Brittany Hege (02:19):
For sure.
I very clearly remember my firstyear teaching, sitting at the
front of the classroom, and Ithink I always like thought I
was good at math, like I'm justa problem solver, but I remember
standing at the front of myclassroom, I had a fifth grader
sitting in front of me and Idon't know the problem like nine
times 12 came up.
And I was doing the wholeteacher thing of like"who knows
(02:39):
it?" to buy time so I couldfigure it out in my head.
Because I was like I didn't knowit.
And I've got my phone up therebehind my water like having to
put it in the calculator, like Idon't identify as somebody who
necessarily had like"mathtrauma", but clearly I had a lot
of beliefs and was not as strongof a math student as I thought I
(03:00):
was.
And so I was having to teach ina way that was so uncomfortable
to me.
I was learning the math rightalongside my students.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:07):
So do you think that learning the math
right along our students issomething that we should expect
to do as teachers?
Like is that the thing we needto get comfortable with?
Brittany Hege (03:16):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean it's really helpful whenwe're doing math outside the
classroom and we are engaging inexperiences where we're
deepening our own understanding.
Like, I think that's reallyhelpful.
But I also think we shouldexpect to be learning right
alongside our students.
There are going to be studentswho do things in a way that is
completely different than how Iwould have done it.
(03:38):
And that piques my curiosity oflike, okay, why does this work?
How is this similar to thestrategy, like, I would have
taken?
Is this an approach that's goingto last for them like long term
or do I need to kind of likeguide them in a different way?
So I think every teachingexperience is also a learning
experience.
Like I've never been in aclassroom with students where
(03:58):
I've not learned something aboutthe math that I'm teaching.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:03):
I love that you said this because I'm now
just thinking about last weekwhen I taught this grade eight
kid, I was teaching him ratiosand it started occurring to me
that he was totally not pickingup what I was putting down
because he didn't know how todivide.
And I, I say to him, well, holdon a second, what's 10 divided
by 2?
And he was like, I don't, Idon't know.
And then I was like, Well, howmany groups of two are in 10?
(04:25):
And then he'd be like, two,four, six.
And I was like, trying to figureout what he was doing.
I was like, so hold on a second.
When I say the word divide,you're completely blanked out,
but when I phrase it a differentway, and I, it took me like 10
minutes to be like, oh my God,you're skip counting to get to
the number.
And then when I said to him, butinstead of counting five groups
(04:45):
of two, couldn't you do fivetimes two?
He was like, I don't get whatthat means.
The whole point is at the end,he said to me, thank you so much
for teaching me.
And I was like, no, thank youfor teaching me.
I was like, I've never seenanyone process this question in
this way.
And then I also said you know,it's my job as a teacher to
figure out how to help youunderstand this.
It's not your job to understandit just the way I'm teaching it,
(05:07):
like straight up.
That's not it, that's not thepower dynamic.
But it made me think of what youjust said of being like, well,
you can't possibly anticipateevery single way a student is
going to think in yourclassroom.
And maybe back in the day, wewere taught in a way that there
was one way we were expected todo something, and the teacher at
the front of the room knew thatway.
They were an expert in that way.
Brittany Hege (05:26):
Yeah, well, I think the way, at least for me,
the way that I learned math, itwas not this creative thing that
invoked curiosity.
It was just like, this is theone way to do it.
And if you don't get this oneway, F.
You know, like that's yourgrade.
And it was so funny.
I was talking to my husband theother day because he will tell
(05:46):
you, and he's an elementaryschool administrator, he would
tell you like math was not mything.
He still is intimidated by math.
And we were talking aboutsomething because I was trying
to prove something forInstagram.
Um, so we were having a mathdiscussion on Instagram.
And so, you know, I was askinghim, how would you figure out
this problem?
And he was, explaining it, andit was just really creative, it
(06:06):
was beautiful number sense, andthe thing that he said after
that is he said, I was nevergood at math, but the strategy I
just told you, like, that's howI coped.
And I was like, no, like whatyou just told me is not a coping
strategy, that is what we aretrying to develop in students
now.
And so that's where I think itwas like, just such an aha
moment for me that like, thegoal for how we were taught math
(06:31):
was to like, do it this one wayto do the algorithm, do the
procedure and anything else thanthat was viewed as coping, or at
least that's how he internalizedit.
And now I feel like it's kind ofthe exact opposite.
Like we want the multiplestrategies, the multiple
representations, multipleapproaches, and that's what's
like praised and highlighted, orat least that's what we want to
(06:52):
be praised and highlighted andnot just the one path and no
flexibility outside that onepath.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:59):
So what's really interesting is like Mix
and Math, which is what youcreated, has kind of stepped in
to like solve this problem, butI, I have to back up because I
was thinking about the statementyou made, again, your website
says it's been our experience inworking with thousands of
teachers that most did not learnmath the way they are expected
to teach.
And I was sitting with that andbeing like, is this specific to
(07:20):
teachers?
Like, can we just pause?
Let's look at like doctors.
Okay.
Or like, let's talk likeliterally any profession.
Okay.
We're going to use doctorsbecause like everyone's had a
doctor probably.
Were they treated in the waythey are expected to treat
patients?
And if not, is the differencethat they went to school and
were taught how to treat, like,do you know what I'm saying?
Brittany Hege (07:41):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And you're probably right,because medicine evolves, right?
And so, because of that, theylearn something new.
My assumption is that maybe theyare educated on it.
And then they have to changetheir practices.
I think the missing piece isthat, for me, in my experience,
there was no, like, education.
(08:02):
The gap between, like, how wewere taught and then how we're
expected to teach.
That, like, missing section isthat education.
Like for me, I had one mathmethods course in college.
I was an elementary ed major.
So yes, I took the calc and precalc or whatever college courses
you take.
But then I had the one mathclass.
So for one semester, I wastaught how to teach math K6.
(08:27):
And that's not enough.
Like, that's the only educationI got.
Any other education I have tochange my practices has been
learning that I've done on myown.
And so, I don't know if it's thesame in the medical field, but I
assume they're being educated oflike, research has said this,
here's how we change ourpractices accordingly.
I don't know.
Maybe that's an assumption.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:47):
No, but I, I, this is, this was my thing
because I was like, okay, we'renot gonna like, I know neither
of us are experts in like,teaching teachers, but I, this
has been a conversation that'sbeen happening for so long.
Like, I'm a high school mathteacher, like I did my teacher's
ed for high school math, we werenever, first of all, we didn't
do any math, obviously.
So there was, there was no mathbeing done.
We had to like, hand in lessonplans and stuff, but like, that
(09:10):
was kind of it.
So I'm kind of like, I don'tunderstand where teachers are
supposed to learn this.
Like, are we basically sayinglike, okay, you went to school
for X number of years as anelementary and high school
student, you were taught in away that is no longer like en
vogue to teach anymore, so youcan't teach that way, but don't
worry, you're in teacher'scollege where you're not going
to learn how to teach at all.
But then when you go into theclassroom, please find your own
(09:32):
resources and figure it out?
Like literally, is that what'shappening?
Brittany Hege (09:36):
I mean, that was my experience.
That's really what it felt like.
And I had a fantastic experiencein college, I love the
university that I graduatedfrom, and their teacher ed
program is great.
And ultimately, cause it'sreally what, three years that
you're working in your major?
You cannot prepare a teacher forevery subject level, every grade
level, over six grades, sevengrades.
(09:56):
That's just impossible to do.
And actually it's really twoyears because that last year
you're student teaching.
So it's just not going tohappen.
But yes, that was my experience.
I went into it thinking like Iwas really prepared and I
learned all of the like bestpractices and things.
But when it got down to actuallylike, what am I going to teach
today?
I did not know how to do that.
I did not have the understandingneeded to do it.
(10:18):
Like I knew how to structure mylesson and all of that.
And so some people will saylike, I don't know, some people
put a lot of emphasis on thepedagogy, and I absolutely think
that is so important.
But I also feel like there hasto be time for teachers to
explore the math that they'reteaching.
One, because I think itincreases, their excitement and
their passion for what they'reteaching.
But it increases theirconfidence and allows them to
(10:40):
apply the principles thatthey're working on, as far as
you know, all of the work thatPeter Liljedahl is doing.
Like, if they have the contentknowledge, it just makes it a
little bit easier to apply theother stuff.
I don't know, that's just,again, my experience, the
teachers that I'm working with,that's what I'm seeing.
But the fear of the math thatthey're teaching is really real.
And it, I think it gets in theway of being able to apply other
(11:03):
things, other practices in theclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:06):
Well, I think that's such a powerful
statement.
Oh my God, I keep sayingpowerful, it's like the word,
every interview I'm like, that'sso powerful.
So anyways, it was though, itwas a very powerful statement.
And I say that because like, youknow, this is a podcast about
math therapy and healing mathtrauma, not just for students,
but for educators and anyonewho's listening.
And I always think a lot ofteachers genuinely are scared of
(11:26):
the math they're teaching,they're not confident around it,
but it's usually because thereis like a math trauma and a lot
of anxiety around math.
So how do it's the chicken orthe egg.
How are they going to learn themath that you're, you're there
being like, look here, let mehelp you understand fractions
better.
But they kind of have a mentalblock of being like, but I
can't.
Do you find that with teacherswhen you're kind of like, look,
I'm providing you with all theseresources to understand the math
(11:48):
deeper?
Do you ever find that there's ablock where they shut down
before they even get there?
Brittany Hege (11:53):
So I think I'm in a little bit of a unique
situation in that I work withteachers who come to me.
And so they are open enough tosay like, I need help, I'm here.
And so that's definitely like aprivilege to be able to work
with people who are already likebought into the idea that
there's more for them to learnand they're willing to get
uncomfortable and step intothat.
(12:14):
So I don't necessarily have tolike push back on that a whole
lot, but I will say, I thinkthat, one thing that's like
really core to me and to Mix andMath is I think we can teach
teachers and create learningopportunities for teachers in a
way that make them not feel badabout themselves.
(12:34):
Or the fact like, Oh, you didn'tknow this yet, like you're a
teacher, where you were supposedto know this.
Like, I think we can just comein in a very I don't know if
like humility is the right way,but like not talking at them,
but just inviting them into thislearning experience.
And being like, oh my goodness,this is what I discovered today,
I cannot wait to share it withyou, and that's automatically
you're going to get verydifferent buy in than"here's the
(12:57):
best way to teach this andyou're not teaching it the best
way".
And like, I believe that's socore to me.
And I actually really think
Vanessa Vakharia (13:03):
I love.
Brittany Hege (13:04):
that's like a problem in professional
development right now is it's alot of like, this is best
practice, you're not doing it,versus inviting them into
exploring it alongside you.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:16):
Oh my God.
I, I, First of all, I love thatyou said that and it's validated
how I've been feeling because,well, you know all my timetables
drama, and I've been feelinglately that like things are, are
so polarized because, okay, solike very quick story.
I did a segment on live TV, thisis after the initial drama,
being like"I'm back to talkabout how there are so many
(13:37):
different ways to get math factsstored in people's brains.
And one of the things I want totalk about are the amazing
patterns in the nine timestables".
It's a four minute news segment.
I show the nine times tablesfinger trick.
I show that every digit adds upto nine.
All the hosts are like oohingand aahing.
They all hate math, and they'relike, Oh my God, this is
amazing.
I leave.
Great.
Cool.
I get two emails.
The first email is from thiswoman being like, I hated math
(13:58):
my entire life, I'm 80 yearsold.
I was so into this, this is socool.
Like, does this trick work forother digits other than nine?
Like, what we want! We wantmathematical curiosity.
We want wonder.
That's what we want.
Then I get an email from ateacher being like, I just want
to let you know I've beenfollowing you for years.
And I was really disappointed tosee this.
I wanted to share it with mystaff, and as soon as you said
(14:20):
that there was a nine timestables trick, I couldn't show it
to them, it's so damaging, Likeyou know, like that, or you were
saying some great stuff on thenews, but as soon as you said
trick, the nine times tablestrick took over and that's all
people are going to see and it'sjust so damaging.
Then I saw somebody repost it onInstagram being like, The Math
Guru says that the number nineis special, but we disagree
because all numbers are special.
It's important to know why thistrick works.
(14:40):
And then did this whole veryclever reel on why the trick
works, cool.
All of this could have justbeen, great, Vanessa, that's one
way that will engage somelearners and it's cool to know,
and here are some other ways youcould use alongside that should
you choose to, and should therecipient be interested.
Oh my God, sorry.
This is, this is like a soloepisode now.
And Britt, just, everyone knows,Britt is like nodding so
(15:03):
understandingly, like hastherapist eyes on, she's just
like, okay.
Anyways, but I just feel likethis is what you were saying.
It's like, why are you framingit as I did something wrong?
Did I do something fuckingwrong?
Did I do something wrong byshowing the world a really cool
pattern in the nines?
Tell me!
Brittany Hege (15:20):
That's the thing.
You revealed a pattern.
Like I actually heard something,it said math is the science of
patterns.
And I love that.
Like I love viewing math as justlike, exploring patterns,
because that's really what itis.
And so you revealed a pattern.
And when we see those patternsand we show students that, and
(15:40):
then we say like, why does thiswork?
Like, that's a greatconversation to have.
I see that you're using yourfingers to help you with the
nines.
Do you know why that works?
Let's explore it.
And as you're doing thatexploration and having that
conversation, you deepen yourunderstanding even further about
the nines.
But I think it gets back to theway that all of that was
handled, just as a society, thisis probably outside of math, but
(16:04):
as a society, I feel likesometimes we can be so harsh and
judgmental and it's like, can wenot just explore and have
conversations together?
Like, yes, of course, speak outagainst practices that are truly
harmful for students andteachers, but outside of that,
can we not just have beautifulmath conversations and explore
and discuss and be okay beingwrong?
(16:26):
And when we are right, ratherthan having to like project that
we are right, instead invitepeople in to explore and have
the same aha moments that wehad.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:36):
Ugh.
Preach, preach, preach.
And on that note, what I'd liketo talk about is your view on
direct instruction, explicitinstruction, and how everyone is
like fucking going bananas overit.
Like, this is one of thosepractices where I'm like, half
the people are like, no, it's soharmful, and the other half are
like, no, it's not.
What do you think here?
Like, is it really harmful?
Brittany Hege (16:57):
Anytime, like, we're having discussions about
really just anything in life, Ilike to define the terms
initially.
Because what one person can say,like, especially with these
polarized words, one person canview it in one way, and another
person can view it in anotherway.
And if we are arguing about thesame word, but we're viewing it
completely different, like,that's just not beneficial.
And so I don't even want to likenecessarily like use that word
(17:19):
because people view itdifferently.
But if we're talking about apractice where we are just
telling students how to do math,so, we are teaching adding,
subtracting, and fractions.
Today's day one, let me tell youhow to do this.
Watch me, this is exactly howyou do it.
You find a a common denominator,and then you add the numerators,
and then, you know, whatever.
(17:40):
If we are doing that, that isnot the approach that I believe
research says is effective.
It is not what I believe to beeffective, it's not what I've
seen to be effective.
But there is a time for, I liketo call it, explicit
connections", so I am really bigabout using a bunch of different
representations, letting themexplore, and then obviously we
(18:02):
want to not just like leave themin that, like, oh, we've
explored all these things.
It's like, okay, what did welearn from that?
And we are intentionally guidingstudents to make specific
connections here.
Like, okay, so we just, we weretalking about the algorithm
initially, right?
When we, you know, added these,I saw that you had to make
exchanges with your patternblocks.
Um, why do you think you had tomake those exchanges?
(18:23):
Well, because we can't talkabout these, like, it's kind of
like when you're adding, like,two bananas and three
watermelon, you don't say, like,I have five watermelon or five
bananas, if you have to find acommon unit to describe them, so
we have five fruit.
So we have that discussion andthen it's like, okay, look at
this person who maybe they diduse the algorithm because
they've been taught that.
It's like, how is what they didsimilar to what you did?
(18:44):
So we're being relativelyexplicit in the connections that
they're making.
And that is the approach thathas been really helpful for me
in my learning of the researchand looking at, I mean, it's
consolidating when we're talkingabout, like, Peter Liljedahl's
work, like, that's what thatconsolidation process is, is
kind of like, guiding students,yeah, bringing it together, that
(19:05):
synthesis.
But there are times where we dohave to specifically tell
students certain things, like,they are not going to magically
discover, I don't know, that youput a decimal point between the
one's place and the tenth'splace.
It is a convention.
So there are certain things thatare conventions.
They are just, it is the way itis.
(19:27):
And those are things we have tojust directly tell students.
And I can't remember if I saidthis already, but like certain
algorithms, like the way that weset up an algorithm, a student
is not just going to discoverthat.
But when they have theconceptual understanding, they
understand why this works, whywhen we multiply, we can find
partial products and things likethat.
Then we say, here's another waythat you could organize your
(19:50):
thinking.
So to say like, never directinstruction, there is time where
students need more directinstruction, but I find that
that typically comes afterstudents have built conceptual
understanding but, I'd like toreally focus on more explicit
connections rather than explicitinstruction.
I think that embodies more ofthe approach that I take.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:15):
This is really interesting because I'm really
trying to like dig deep into myown math experience.
I definitely think I was aproduct of this way of teaching
where like I could really followthe rules and the formulas.
It's not that I didn'tunderstand, but certainly,
whenever I had to do like one ofthose math contests or something
where there's no rules likeyou're really just thinking, I
couldn't like answer a singlequestion.
(20:37):
And I think that actually didcause a lot of anxiety for me in
terms of like, even now I feelso threatened, you know, when
you're out at a math conference,like one of these ed conferences
and like the presenter's, like,and now we're all going to like
think, pair, share and work onthis like weird ass fucking
problem.
And here's what happens everytime I start trying to like do
the thing by algebra.
They're like, well, you're usingalgebra, but there are other
(20:58):
ways to look at it.
And I always feel like I'mgetting in trouble because they
want me to do something likemore creative and like move some
like boxes around and likediscover that the square roots
is like actually has to do withthe square and because I didn't,
I'm not really a mathematician.
Like, I actually feel there's somuch shame around this explicit
instruction conversation, almostbecause like I learned that way
(21:18):
then it doesn't count.
So that's where I'm like, you'reright, I agree that like, a true
understanding is obviously moreimportant than just learning
algorithms and formulas, but Iactually wonder if a lot of math
teachers are being shamed andlike almost developing new math
trauma at this stage of theircareer.
Brittany Hege (21:40):
Yes.
I mean, there is never a placefor shame in teaching.
Like shame is just not a helpfulemotion to get to change
practices.
Like it's just not.
And so again, this kind of goesback to the same discussion of
like, rather than saying like,,"That's the wrong way to teach
it".
Why can we not just haveconversations about like, okay,
(22:02):
this is one way to teach it.
But what happens when yourstudents don't get it that way?
Do you have other strategies orways to approach it?
And if you don't, like, let'sexplore that together.
I think it may have been JulieDixon who said like, you know
what?
I'm not even gonna try and quoteher because honestly, I'm the
worst at quoting people.
I always butcher their quotes,but something.
She was basically just talkingabout the importance of teachers
(22:25):
doing math.
Like, we can't grow in math ifwe are not doing math ourselves.
And so, I hate that youexperience shame around that.
It doesn't surprise me.
I know there's plenty ofteachers who experience shame
around that.
But I think it's just, that isone way, and there are other
ways to do it, but you have tobe given the opportunity and a
safe space to explore that foryourself.
(22:46):
And explore that along studentalongside students.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:49):
Mm hmm.
Well, and it's also interestingbecause I feel like I have such
a different role.
I know you and I, like, talkabout this a lot of, like, I'm
no longer a classroom teacher.
I taught in the, I taught in theclassroom for a very short time,
quite honestly.
I have been tutoring for 20years.
And because I'm a tutor, my roleis, when a kid comes in for
their one hour of the entireweek to learn the entire unit
(23:13):
that they didn't understandtheir teacher explain, I have to
figure out the fastest way toteach it to them.
Now, this is unfortunate.
This puts me in a very trickyposition.
Would I love to sit with thatkid for hours and explain how
everything works?
A hundred percent.
But usually a goal, the goals ofthe parent and of the students
are, I want to feel better inclass and not be anxious around
(23:33):
math.
And I want to get a higher mark.
Those are the goals, right?
So like I wouldn't say my handsare tied because I feel like
there's a lot of freedom in whatI do, but I feel my approach has
to be different.
And usually it actually has torely, at least partially, on
direction instruction to getthrough it as fast as possible.
So I almost, I'm like, okay, atthe very least, I can get the
(23:54):
student like going through themotions of solving, you know,
here's how to factor aquadratic, just follow this
pattern, just follow thispattern.
And once they're feeling a bitconfident, I can then start
explaining to them why it works.
But I actually find if I onlyhave an hour in the week, I have
to start with the explicitinstruction, otherwise within 20
minutes, they're feeling solost, they're feeling like
(24:15):
they've made no progress andthey have to get out of there in
an hour and know how to dosomething.
So like, I think I come at itfrom that way.
And I see people like completelytaking down tutors on online and
just kind of being like, this issuch bullshit.
And like, what are you reallydoing?
And it's like, well, there is arole for everyone.
And like these kids have accessto one hour a week.
That's what they, they canafford, that's what they have
(24:36):
access to.
Depending on what your goal iswith the student and what that
student needs, like you have tobe willing to adjust and not to
just shut down somethingentirely because like the
internet is against it.
Brittany Hege (24:47):
Yeah.
So, first, I just want to likevalidate that that is a really
hard position to be in, and I'veexperienced this too, when I go
into classrooms and work withteachers and work with their
PLCs, and I'm not there longterm with that teacher or that
school, and I go in and workwith their students, it is
really hard to sit down and belike, I want to help you, but
the amount of time andexperience I know it will take
(25:09):
to get you to really understandthis concept is like much longer
than this 20 minute math center.
And so that's a really hardchallenge.
It's not something that I'venecessarily figured out yet,
like how to best support thestudent in such a short
fragmented amount of time.
But I think it's important torecognize too that like in a
(25:30):
perfect world, students wouldtruly understand, like deeply
understand every single mathconcept they face in the
classroom.
But the reality is with all ofthe standards and all of the
pressures and short timeframes,like that is just not doable.
And so really looking at likethose priority concepts, like, I
don't even, not even going topretend to know like what the
(25:51):
standards are like in Canada,but in here and we're talking
about upper elementary,fractions is huge.
And that is something thatcarries through middle school,
high school.
So when I'm working with ateacher and I'm like, if there
is one thing, like one area youreally want to grow and really
want to grow, go deep withstudents, it is fractions
because it impacts so many otherthings.
So I think it's alsoprioritizing,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:12):
That's a good point.
Brittany Hege (26:14):
And also getting really clear on your goals.
Like, as a tutor, you have tomeet the goals of the parents,
or of the teachers, whoever'ssetting those goals.
And like, their goals may bedifferent than what the goals
you would choose for that child.
And that's okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:28):
Totally.
Totally.
And also I feel like I'm like,I'm basically negotiating what
every teacher out there is doingthrough my students.
So like, right, I'm dealing with400, I have like 400 students.
So I have 400 different teacherswith different expectations and
different like ways of teachingand approaches and ways to
navigate each of those.
(26:50):
I honestly feel like you'regiving me therapy at this point.
I'm so sorry.
Brittany Hege (26:53):
Well, you came on to my podcast and gave me
therapy, so it works out.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:59):
Oh my god.
Okay, this has been so fun.
Like, this has flown by.
I also feel I've interrupted youquite a bit.
Did you, David's nodding andjust being like, what wrong with
you?
I'm so sorry, Brittany.
Brittany Hege (27:13):
You were fine.
I always love talking to you.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:15):
But I, did you even finish your last thought?
Brittany Hege (27:19):
Oh yeah, I think so.
I'm, I'm typically am finishingthoughts like mid sentence.
I saw a meme the other day thatwas like, are you the wife that
has like a conversation withyourself in your head and then
brings your husband in like onthe last 20 percent of the
conversation?
And I was like, oh, that's me.
I'll just randomly be like, andthen we're going to go here.
And he's like, what?
(27:39):
I missed something.
So I
Vanessa Vakharia (27:43):
So what would you say?
I mean, I want to ask a coupleof final questions.
What would you say, I'm askingyou this question and then I'm
going to ask the last twoquestions that are quick.
What would you say to a teacherwho's like, yeah, I, I really
agree with this.
And I feel like in order for meto be a more confident teacher
and like a, you know, lessanxious teacher, I really do
need to make peace with the maththat I'm teaching and learn it
more, but I don't have any time.
(28:04):
What's the one thing they coulddo that would move the needle
there?
Brittany Hege (28:08):
That they don't have any time.
Okay, if they don't, if theytruly do not have any time,
although I will say, I trulybelieve that exploring the math
saves you time in the long run.
But if you truly do not have asingle second of time, like, get
curious about what your studentsare doing.
If we are always tellingstudents how to do and how to
think, you're always going tosee work that is exactly like
(28:28):
mimicking exactly what you'redoing and what you're telling
them to think.
But if you give them a problemand let them explore it, you
know, students intuitively knowa lot just from life
experiences.
Like, uh, one of the 5th gradestandards is fractions as
division, and that, like, 2 3rdsis 2 divided by 3.
Well, a second grader couldfigure that out because they
(28:51):
have experience sharing twocookies with three friends.
So like give students thoseopportunities and then just be
really curious about yourstudents work.
So look at how they approachedit, think about how you would
approach it if you couldn't usean algorithm, that alone will
allow you to kind of like deepenyour understanding of the math
or see it in a different way.
(29:12):
So that's the first thing.
And the second thing, I'm like,we are in the day and age, that
just made me sound so old.
We're in the day and age wherethere is so many online
communities.
And obviously I'm biased, like,you know, follow me on
Instagram, join the UpperElementary Math Teacher's
Facebook group, read a blogpost, look on YouTube, there are
so many, and now granted, youhave to find a community that
(29:34):
feels safe to you, and that isencouraging, but just join, and
listen, and allow other people'spassions to maybe like spark
your passion and your curiosityabout, oh, is there another way
to teach this.
I feel like I'm constantly justrandomly doing math on sticky
notes because I'll seesomething, I saw it on your
Instagram, you posted somethingabout the algorithm for dividing
(29:56):
fractions, I think, and Iimmediately pull out a sticky
note, I'm like drawing picturesabout it.
So, I think we have to get to aplace where we're willing to,
like, accept that we may notunderstand it the way that we
want to, and then just, I'veused the word curiosity a
million times, but I just feel
Vanessa Vakharia (30:13):
But I love it.
Brittany Hege (30:14):
Yeah, just how, why does this work?
I have no idea.
Let's explore! Like, I feel likethat is just my math life.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:21):
Well, I will use the word I always use and
say that was very powerful.
Okay.
That was very powerful,Brittany.
Okay.
I'm going to ask you the lasttwo questions but this has just
been so illuminating and trulycathartic for me.
So thank you so much.
The first is what would, ifthere was one thing you could
change about the way math istaught in schools, what would it
be?
Brittany Hege (30:41):
I wish that it was more visual, like more hands
on.
I wish students, rather thanlearning math, were experiencing
math.
Yeah, I think just making itmore visual, whether that is
with pictures, whether that is,um, with manipulatives.
I'm big on manipulatives.
I love manipulatives.
So, there are probably a millionthings that are really important
(31:04):
to change.
This is just the one area I'mvery passionate about.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:08):
Love.
What would you say to someonewho was like, that's so cool,
really great story, like, Iwould love to get more confident
with the math I'm teaching, butlike, I'm just not a math
person.
Brittany Hege (31:23):
I think I would say, I don't know if I would say
this like in person, but whatcame to my head is like, I'm
really sorry the experiences youhave had have made you believe
that.
That's like deep in my gut whatI would want to say.
I don't know that I wouldactually say that.
Um, I don't know.
I don't know why this is such ahard question.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:40):
I think nice to say.
I think you should say that.
Well, I'm not here to tell youwhat to do, but like, if you
said that, I think that's like,really validating.
Brittany Hege (31:49):
You know, I think it was maybe Chase Orton who
said, you may not have been goodat math class, but that does not
mean that you're not good atmath.
Like distinguishing like mathfrom math class.
I love that.
So maybe in my more eloquentdays, I'll be able to validate
their experience and also tellthem like, math is so much
(32:12):
different than what you likelyexperienced growing up.
And then I would invite them tocome sit in my office and do
math on sticky notes with me.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:23):
I love that.
Okay.
You are the best.
This has been so fun.
I can't wait to hang out in reallife.
Um, Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You're amazing.
Brittany Hege (32:33):
Aw.
Well, thank you so much.
It is, like, such a joy to getto talk to you, and to meet you,
and I know you hate goodbyes, soI can be the one to say goodbye.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
Thank you! David's giving me the eye.
Thank you, Brittany.
You are my therapist! You're mymath therapist.
Brittany Hege (32:50):
Hey, I, I will take that title.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
You go.
Brittany Hege (32:55):
Well, thank you for joining another episode of
the Math Therapy Podcast.
We'll talk to you later.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:03):
Bye.
David Kochberg (33:06):
Beautiful.
Professional!
Vanessa Vakharia (33:10):
I just want to start by letting everyone know
how hard it was for me to notstart this episode with"it's
Brittany, bitch".
Now that I've gotten that out ofmy system, I am obsessed with
Brittany, guys.
Like, capital O obsessed.
I loved everything about thisinterview, and I feel like I
walked away with so many gems,and quite frankly, that was kind
of the math therapy I neededwhen it comes to all of the math
related bullying I've beengetting on the internet.
(33:32):
I think the biggest takeaway forme is that there's no one right
way to teach students, becauseevery student is different.
If we can lean into that, thenwe're already doing way better
than we have in the past.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
(33:52):
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
(34:14):
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
Brittany Hege (34:27):
They are not going to, magically discover, I
don't know, that you put adecimal point between the, um,
one's place and the tenth'splace.
Like that is, there's a word forthat.
What is it?
A,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:40):
What is it?
Brittany Hege (34:41):
What's it called?
Um, I just blanked on it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:43):
I don't, I certainly don't know.
I wouldn't, I don't think you'regoing to blow my mind with
whatever it
Brittany Hege (34:48):
There, hold on.
There certain things that justare the way they are.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
Oh, is that the word you're looking for, for
certain things that are the waythey are?
Brittany Hege (34:57):
Yeah.
It's just,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Facts?
Brittany Hege (34:59):
No, it's not that.
Hold on, this is probably goingto get
Vanessa Vakharia (35:02):
Oh, notation, notation,
Brittany Hege (35:04):
um, no.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:06):
David!
David Kochberg (35:07):
I don't know, I need more context.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:08):
Give us more context.
Brittany Hege (35:10):
I don't know.
It's just,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:11):
Okay, a decimal point between two
numbers, what's another exampleof this thing you're talking
about?
Brittany Hege (35:15):
or like rounding, for example.
When we round, like the factlike a five.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:20):
Rules?
Brittany Hege (35:20):
No, it's a, Ah!
Vanessa Vakharia (35:23):
rules, conjectures, uh, format, um.
David Kochberg (35:28):
You're saying random words.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:29):
Here, film
David Kochberg (35:30):
don't think understand what she's actually
saying.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:32):
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm waiting until she says
it's like that.
Like, I'm waiting for her to belike, oh, you're close.
David Kochberg (35:37):
Well let her explain the whole example.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:39):
Oh, okay.
Brittany Hege (35:40):
it's, um,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:41):
She's stuck.
Brittany Hege (35:43):
I know, I cannot, I'm going to be able to pull it
out.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:45):
Here, Dave film, can you get some content
for fuck's sake?
Okay, hold on.
Hey Siri, what do you call Okay,hold on, hold on.
Siri needs to get on this.
One second.
David Kochberg (35:56):
But you don't even understand what you're
asking.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:58):
Shh!
David Kochberg (35:58):
You just keep interrupting her.
Siri (36:00):
Sorry about that.
David Kochberg (36:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Siri agrees.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:04):
Hey Siri, what do you call it when there are
certain rules in math?
Siri (36:09):
I found this on the web.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:11):
Expressions.
No, that's not it.
I don't know.
Britt.
Brittany Hege (36:14):
I'm, I'm, I'm looking at ChatGPT.
A convention! Oh my gosh.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:19):
Convention! She looked at ChatGPT.
That's what I was gonna do.
What was your prompt?
Brittany Hege (36:23):
What is the word that is used in math education
for things that are just ruleslike a five rounds up?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:28):
That fucking ChatGPT.
David Kochberg (36:31):
This is what you wanted me to film.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:32):
This is good content! Anyway, sorry, Britt,
as you were saying.
Brittany Hege (36:36):
It's a convention.
It is a convention.
I think every teaching experience is also a
learning experience.
Like I've never been in aclassroom with students where
I've not learned something aboutthe math that I'm teaching
Vanessa Vakharia (00:13):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:35):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, I am so excited abouttoday's guest because here's how
I've been feeling lately andmaybe you can relate.
There are so many new ways thatteachers are being told to teach
their students these days.
Like the frameworks, thepedagogies, the this, the that.
It's so overwhelming and I mean,think of how many different
people I've interviewed on thispodcast who have developed a new
(00:58):
approach to teaching.
Like even I'm here peddling thiswhole math therapy thing to
whoever I can get to listen.
So I guess, hi, I'm the problem,it's me?
Okay, well my point is most ofus who are teachers, were never
taught the way we're nowexpected to teach.
And even that keeps changing.
And what's more, there seems tobe little to no support for
teachers to help them figure outall of these new ways to best
(01:19):
deliver content to students.
And so many teachers have theirown math trauma and are nervous
enough already, like it's toomuch.
But today's guest is here tohelp us all.
Brittany Hege is an incrediblemath educator and content
creator, and we chatted aboutthe ways education can evolve
without leaving either studentsor teachers behind.
She also explains how shame inthe classroom can lead to
(01:39):
anxiety and the healing power ofcuriosity and community.
And now I've been talking forway too long, so here's
Brittany.
So, you are in a way sodifferent from the rest of my
guests because I, I realize thatI rarely speak to my guests
about math.
You know, we're often talkingabout math trauma in students,
we're very rarely talking aboutmath trauma in teachers.
(02:01):
And what I love about what youdo is your whole thing is like,
teachers these days are expectedto teach in a way that they
weren't taught, and that can beso triggering, I don't think
these are your words, but in mymind, I'm like, that can trigger
their math trauma.
Brittany Hege (02:19):
For sure.
I very clearly remember my firstyear teaching, sitting at the
front of the classroom, and Ithink I always like thought I
was good at math, like I'm justa problem solver, but I remember
standing at the front of myclassroom, I had a fifth grader
sitting in front of me and Idon't know the problem like nine
times 12 came up.
And I was doing the wholeteacher thing of like"who knows
(02:39):
it?" to buy time so I couldfigure it out in my head.
Because I was like I didn't knowit.
And I've got my phone up therebehind my water like having to
put it in the calculator, like Idon't identify as somebody who
necessarily had like"mathtrauma", but clearly I had a lot
of beliefs and was not as strongof a math student as I thought I
(03:00):
was.
And so I was having to teach ina way that was so uncomfortable
to me.
I was learning the math rightalongside my students.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:07):
So do you think that learning the math
right along our students issomething that we should expect
to do as teachers?
Like is that the thing we needto get comfortable with?
Brittany Hege (03:16):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean it's really helpful whenwe're doing math outside the
classroom and we are engaging inexperiences where we're
deepening our own understanding.
Like, I think that's reallyhelpful.
But I also think we shouldexpect to be learning right
alongside our students.
There are going to be studentswho do things in a way that is
completely different than how Iwould have done it.
(03:38):
And that piques my curiosity oflike, okay, why does this work?
How is this similar to thestrategy, like, I would have
taken?
Is this an approach that's goingto last for them like long term
or do I need to kind of likeguide them in a different way?
So I think every teachingexperience is also a learning
experience.
Like I've never been in aclassroom with students where
(03:58):
I've not learned something aboutthe math that I'm teaching.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:03):
I love that you said this because I'm now
just thinking about last weekwhen I taught this grade eight
kid, I was teaching him ratiosand it started occurring to me
that he was totally not pickingup what I was putting down
because he didn't know how todivide.
And I, I say to him, well, holdon a second, what's 10 divided
by 2?
And he was like, I don't, Idon't know.
And then I was like, Well, howmany groups of two are in 10?
(04:25):
And then he'd be like, two,four, six.
And I was like, trying to figureout what he was doing.
I was like, so hold on a second.
When I say the word divide,you're completely blanked out,
but when I phrase it a differentway, and I, it took me like 10
minutes to be like, oh my God,you're skip counting to get to
the number.
And then when I said to him, butinstead of counting five groups
(04:45):
of two, couldn't you do fivetimes two?
He was like, I don't get whatthat means.
The whole point is at the end,he said to me, thank you so much
for teaching me.
And I was like, no, thank youfor teaching me.
I was like, I've never seenanyone process this question in
this way.
And then I also said you know,it's my job as a teacher to
figure out how to help youunderstand this.
It's not your job to understandit just the way I'm teaching it,
(05:07):
like straight up.
That's not it, that's not thepower dynamic.
But it made me think of what youjust said of being like, well,
you can't possibly anticipateevery single way a student is
going to think in yourclassroom.
And maybe back in the day, wewere taught in a way that there
was one way we were expected todo something, and the teacher at
the front of the room knew thatway.
They were an expert in that way.
Brittany Hege (05:26):
Yeah, well, I think the way, at least for me,
the way that I learned math, itwas not this creative thing that
invoked curiosity.
It was just like, this is theone way to do it.
And if you don't get this oneway, F.
You know, like that's yourgrade.
And it was so funny.
I was talking to my husband theother day because he will tell
(05:46):
you, and he's an elementaryschool administrator, he would
tell you like math was not mything.
He still is intimidated by math.
And we were talking aboutsomething because I was trying
to prove something forInstagram.
Um, so we were having a mathdiscussion on Instagram.
And so, you know, I was askinghim, how would you figure out
this problem?
And he was, explaining it, andit was just really creative, it
(06:06):
was beautiful number sense, andthe thing that he said after
that is he said, I was nevergood at math, but the strategy I
just told you, like, that's howI coped.
And I was like, no, like whatyou just told me is not a coping
strategy, that is what we aretrying to develop in students
now.
And so that's where I think itwas like, just such an aha
moment for me that like, thegoal for how we were taught math
(06:31):
was to like, do it this one wayto do the algorithm, do the
procedure and anything else thanthat was viewed as coping, or at
least that's how he internalizedit.
And now I feel like it's kind ofthe exact opposite.
Like we want the multiplestrategies, the multiple
representations, multipleapproaches, and that's what's
like praised and highlighted, orat least that's what we want to
(06:52):
be praised and highlighted andnot just the one path and no
flexibility outside that onepath.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:59):
So what's really interesting is like Mix
and Math, which is what youcreated, has kind of stepped in
to like solve this problem, butI, I have to back up because I
was thinking about the statementyou made, again, your website
says it's been our experience inworking with thousands of
teachers that most did not learnmath the way they are expected
to teach.
And I was sitting with that andbeing like, is this specific to
(07:20):
teachers?
Like, can we just pause?
Let's look at like doctors.
Okay.
Or like, let's talk likeliterally any profession.
Okay.
We're going to use doctorsbecause like everyone's had a
doctor probably.
Were they treated in the waythey are expected to treat
patients?
And if not, is the differencethat they went to school and
were taught how to treat, like,do you know what I'm saying?
Brittany Hege (07:41):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And you're probably right,because medicine evolves, right?
And so, because of that, theylearn something new.
My assumption is that maybe theyare educated on it.
And then they have to changetheir practices.
I think the missing piece isthat, for me, in my experience,
there was no, like, education.
(08:02):
The gap between, like, how wewere taught and then how we're
expected to teach.
That, like, missing section isthat education.
Like for me, I had one mathmethods course in college.
I was an elementary ed major.
So yes, I took the calc and precalc or whatever college courses
you take.
But then I had the one mathclass.
So for one semester, I wastaught how to teach math K6.
(08:27):
And that's not enough.
Like, that's the only educationI got.
Any other education I have tochange my practices has been
learning that I've done on myown.
And so, I don't know if it's thesame in the medical field, but I
assume they're being educated oflike, research has said this,
here's how we change ourpractices accordingly.
I don't know.
Maybe that's an assumption.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:47):
No, but I, I, this is, this was my thing
because I was like, okay, we'renot gonna like, I know neither
of us are experts in like,teaching teachers, but I, this
has been a conversation that'sbeen happening for so long.
Like, I'm a high school mathteacher, like I did my teacher's
ed for high school math, we werenever, first of all, we didn't
do any math, obviously.
So there was, there was no mathbeing done.
We had to like, hand in lessonplans and stuff, but like, that
(09:10):
was kind of it.
So I'm kind of like, I don'tunderstand where teachers are
supposed to learn this.
Like, are we basically sayinglike, okay, you went to school
for X number of years as anelementary and high school
student, you were taught in away that is no longer like en
vogue to teach anymore, so youcan't teach that way, but don't
worry, you're in teacher'scollege where you're not going
to learn how to teach at all.
But then when you go into theclassroom, please find your own
(09:32):
resources and figure it out?
Like literally, is that what'shappening?
Brittany Hege (09:36):
I mean, that was my experience.
That's really what it felt like.
And I had a fantastic experiencein college, I love the
university that I graduatedfrom, and their teacher ed
program is great.
And ultimately, cause it'sreally what, three years that
you're working in your major?
You cannot prepare a teacher forevery subject level, every grade
level, over six grades, sevengrades.
(09:56):
That's just impossible to do.
And actually it's really twoyears because that last year
you're student teaching.
So it's just not going tohappen.
But yes, that was my experience.
I went into it thinking like Iwas really prepared and I
learned all of the like bestpractices and things.
But when it got down to actuallylike, what am I going to teach
today?
I did not know how to do that.
I did not have the understandingneeded to do it.
(10:18):
Like I knew how to structure mylesson and all of that.
And so some people will saylike, I don't know, some people
put a lot of emphasis on thepedagogy, and I absolutely think
that is so important.
But I also feel like there hasto be time for teachers to
explore the math that they'reteaching.
One, because I think itincreases, their excitement and
their passion for what they'reteaching.
But it increases theirconfidence and allows them to
(10:40):
apply the principles thatthey're working on, as far as
you know, all of the work thatPeter Liljedahl is doing.
Like, if they have the contentknowledge, it just makes it a
little bit easier to apply theother stuff.
I don't know, that's just,again, my experience, the
teachers that I'm working with,that's what I'm seeing.
But the fear of the math thatthey're teaching is really real.
And it, I think it gets in theway of being able to apply other
(11:03):
things, other practices in theclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:06):
Well, I think that's such a powerful
statement.
Oh my God, I keep sayingpowerful, it's like the word,
every interview I'm like, that'sso powerful.
So anyways, it was though, itwas a very powerful statement.
And I say that because like, youknow, this is a podcast about
math therapy and healing mathtrauma, not just for students,
but for educators and anyonewho's listening.
And I always think a lot ofteachers genuinely are scared of
(11:26):
the math they're teaching,they're not confident around it,
but it's usually because thereis like a math trauma and a lot
of anxiety around math.
So how do it's the chicken orthe egg.
How are they going to learn themath that you're, you're there
being like, look here, let mehelp you understand fractions
better.
But they kind of have a mentalblock of being like, but I
can't.
Do you find that with teacherswhen you're kind of like, look,
I'm providing you with all theseresources to understand the math
(11:48):
deeper?
Do you ever find that there's ablock where they shut down
before they even get there?
Brittany Hege (11:53):
So I think I'm in a little bit of a unique
situation in that I work withteachers who come to me.
And so they are open enough tosay like, I need help, I'm here.
And so that's definitely like aprivilege to be able to work
with people who are already likebought into the idea that
there's more for them to learnand they're willing to get
uncomfortable and step intothat.
(12:14):
So I don't necessarily have tolike push back on that a whole
lot, but I will say, I thinkthat, one thing that's like
really core to me and to Mix andMath is I think we can teach
teachers and create learningopportunities for teachers in a
way that make them not feel badabout themselves.
(12:34):
Or the fact like, Oh, you didn'tknow this yet, like you're a
teacher, where you were supposedto know this.
Like, I think we can just comein in a very I don't know if
like humility is the right way,but like not talking at them,
but just inviting them into thislearning experience.
And being like, oh my goodness,this is what I discovered today,
I cannot wait to share it withyou, and that's automatically
you're going to get verydifferent buy in than"here's the
(12:57):
best way to teach this andyou're not teaching it the best
way".
And like, I believe that's socore to me.
And I actually really think
Vanessa Vakharia (13:03):
I love.
Brittany Hege (13:04):
that's like a problem in professional
development right now is it's alot of like, this is best
practice, you're not doing it,versus inviting them into
exploring it alongside you.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:16):
Oh my God.
I, I, First of all, I love thatyou said that and it's validated
how I've been feeling because,well, you know all my timetables
drama, and I've been feelinglately that like things are, are
so polarized because, okay, solike very quick story.
I did a segment on live TV, thisis after the initial drama,
being like"I'm back to talkabout how there are so many
(13:37):
different ways to get math factsstored in people's brains.
And one of the things I want totalk about are the amazing
patterns in the nine timestables".
It's a four minute news segment.
I show the nine times tablesfinger trick.
I show that every digit adds upto nine.
All the hosts are like oohingand aahing.
They all hate math, and they'relike, Oh my God, this is
amazing.
I leave.
Great.
Cool.
I get two emails.
The first email is from thiswoman being like, I hated math
(13:58):
my entire life, I'm 80 yearsold.
I was so into this, this is socool.
Like, does this trick work forother digits other than nine?
Like, what we want! We wantmathematical curiosity.
We want wonder.
That's what we want.
Then I get an email from ateacher being like, I just want
to let you know I've beenfollowing you for years.
And I was really disappointed tosee this.
I wanted to share it with mystaff, and as soon as you said
(14:20):
that there was a nine timestables trick, I couldn't show it
to them, it's so damaging, Likeyou know, like that, or you were
saying some great stuff on thenews, but as soon as you said
trick, the nine times tablestrick took over and that's all
people are going to see and it'sjust so damaging.
Then I saw somebody repost it onInstagram being like, The Math
Guru says that the number nineis special, but we disagree
because all numbers are special.
It's important to know why thistrick works.
(14:40):
And then did this whole veryclever reel on why the trick
works, cool.
All of this could have justbeen, great, Vanessa, that's one
way that will engage somelearners and it's cool to know,
and here are some other ways youcould use alongside that should
you choose to, and should therecipient be interested.
Oh my God, sorry.
This is, this is like a soloepisode now.
And Britt, just, everyone knows,Britt is like nodding so
(15:03):
understandingly, like hastherapist eyes on, she's just
like, okay.
Anyways, but I just feel likethis is what you were saying.
It's like, why are you framingit as I did something wrong?
Did I do something fuckingwrong?
Did I do something wrong byshowing the world a really cool
pattern in the nines?
Tell me!
Brittany Hege (15:20):
That's the thing.
You revealed a pattern.
Like I actually heard something,it said math is the science of
patterns.
And I love that.
Like I love viewing math as justlike, exploring patterns,
because that's really what itis.
And so you revealed a pattern.
And when we see those patternsand we show students that, and
(15:40):
then we say like, why does thiswork?
Like, that's a greatconversation to have.
I see that you're using yourfingers to help you with the
nines.
Do you know why that works?
Let's explore it.
And as you're doing thatexploration and having that
conversation, you deepen yourunderstanding even further about
the nines.
But I think it gets back to theway that all of that was
handled, just as a society, thisis probably outside of math, but
(16:04):
as a society, I feel likesometimes we can be so harsh and
judgmental and it's like, can wenot just explore and have
conversations together?
Like, yes, of course, speak outagainst practices that are truly
harmful for students andteachers, but outside of that,
can we not just have beautifulmath conversations and explore
and discuss and be okay beingwrong?
(16:26):
And when we are right, ratherthan having to like project that
we are right, instead invitepeople in to explore and have
the same aha moments that wehad.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:36):
Ugh.
Preach, preach, preach.
And on that note, what I'd liketo talk about is your view on
direct instruction, explicitinstruction, and how everyone is
like fucking going bananas overit.
Like, this is one of thosepractices where I'm like, half
the people are like, no, it's soharmful, and the other half are
like, no, it's not.
What do you think here?
Like, is it really harmful?
Brittany Hege (16:57):
Anytime, like, we're having discussions about
really just anything in life, Ilike to define the terms
initially.
Because what one person can say,like, especially with these
polarized words, one person canview it in one way, and another
person can view it in anotherway.
And if we are arguing about thesame word, but we're viewing it
completely different, like,that's just not beneficial.
And so I don't even want to likenecessarily like use that word
(17:19):
because people view itdifferently.
But if we're talking about apractice where we are just
telling students how to do math,so, we are teaching adding,
subtracting, and fractions.
Today's day one, let me tell youhow to do this.
Watch me, this is exactly howyou do it.
You find a a common denominator,and then you add the numerators,
and then, you know, whatever.
(17:40):
If we are doing that, that isnot the approach that I believe
research says is effective.
It is not what I believe to beeffective, it's not what I've
seen to be effective.
But there is a time for, I liketo call it, explicit
connections", so I am really bigabout using a bunch of different
representations, letting themexplore, and then obviously we
(18:02):
want to not just like leave themin that, like, oh, we've
explored all these things.
It's like, okay, what did welearn from that?
And we are intentionally guidingstudents to make specific
connections here.
Like, okay, so we just, we weretalking about the algorithm
initially, right?
When we, you know, added these,I saw that you had to make
exchanges with your patternblocks.
Um, why do you think you had tomake those exchanges?
(18:23):
Well, because we can't talkabout these, like, it's kind of
like when you're adding, like,two bananas and three
watermelon, you don't say, like,I have five watermelon or five
bananas, if you have to find acommon unit to describe them, so
we have five fruit.
So we have that discussion andthen it's like, okay, look at
this person who maybe they diduse the algorithm because
they've been taught that.
It's like, how is what they didsimilar to what you did?
(18:44):
So we're being relativelyexplicit in the connections that
they're making.
And that is the approach thathas been really helpful for me
in my learning of the researchand looking at, I mean, it's
consolidating when we're talkingabout, like, Peter Liljedahl's
work, like, that's what thatconsolidation process is, is
kind of like, guiding students,yeah, bringing it together, that
(19:05):
synthesis.
But there are times where we dohave to specifically tell
students certain things, like,they are not going to magically
discover, I don't know, that youput a decimal point between the
one's place and the tenth'splace.
It is a convention.
So there are certain things thatare conventions.
They are just, it is the way itis.
(19:27):
And those are things we have tojust directly tell students.
And I can't remember if I saidthis already, but like certain
algorithms, like the way that weset up an algorithm, a student
is not just going to discoverthat.
But when they have theconceptual understanding, they
understand why this works, whywhen we multiply, we can find
partial products and things likethat.
Then we say, here's another waythat you could organize your
(19:50):
thinking.
So to say like, never directinstruction, there is time where
students need more directinstruction, but I find that
that typically comes afterstudents have built conceptual
understanding but, I'd like toreally focus on more explicit
connections rather than explicitinstruction.
I think that embodies more ofthe approach that I take.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:15):
This is really interesting because I'm really
trying to like dig deep into myown math experience.
I definitely think I was aproduct of this way of teaching
where like I could really followthe rules and the formulas.
It's not that I didn'tunderstand, but certainly,
whenever I had to do like one ofthose math contests or something
where there's no rules likeyou're really just thinking, I
couldn't like answer a singlequestion.
(20:37):
And I think that actually didcause a lot of anxiety for me in
terms of like, even now I feelso threatened, you know, when
you're out at a math conference,like one of these ed conferences
and like the presenter's, like,and now we're all going to like
think, pair, share and work onthis like weird ass fucking
problem.
And here's what happens everytime I start trying to like do
the thing by algebra.
They're like, well, you're usingalgebra, but there are other
(20:58):
ways to look at it.
And I always feel like I'mgetting in trouble because they
want me to do something likemore creative and like move some
like boxes around and likediscover that the square roots
is like actually has to do withthe square and because I didn't,
I'm not really a mathematician.
Like, I actually feel there's somuch shame around this explicit
instruction conversation, almostbecause like I learned that way
(21:18):
then it doesn't count.
So that's where I'm like, you'reright, I agree that like, a true
understanding is obviously moreimportant than just learning
algorithms and formulas, but Iactually wonder if a lot of math
teachers are being shamed andlike almost developing new math
trauma at this stage of theircareer.
Brittany Hege (21:40):
Yes.
I mean, there is never a placefor shame in teaching.
Like shame is just not a helpfulemotion to get to change
practices.
Like it's just not.
And so again, this kind of goesback to the same discussion of
like, rather than saying like,,"That's the wrong way to teach
it".
Why can we not just haveconversations about like, okay,
(22:02):
this is one way to teach it.
But what happens when yourstudents don't get it that way?
Do you have other strategies orways to approach it?
And if you don't, like, let'sexplore that together.
I think it may have been JulieDixon who said like, you know
what?
I'm not even gonna try and quoteher because honestly, I'm the
worst at quoting people.
I always butcher their quotes,but something.
She was basically just talkingabout the importance of teachers
(22:25):
doing math.
Like, we can't grow in math ifwe are not doing math ourselves.
And so, I hate that youexperience shame around that.
It doesn't surprise me.
I know there's plenty ofteachers who experience shame
around that.
But I think it's just, that isone way, and there are other
ways to do it, but you have tobe given the opportunity and a
safe space to explore that foryourself.
(22:46):
And explore that along studentalongside students.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:49):
Mm hmm.
Well, and it's also interestingbecause I feel like I have such
a different role.
I know you and I, like, talkabout this a lot of, like, I'm
no longer a classroom teacher.
I taught in the, I taught in theclassroom for a very short time,
quite honestly.
I have been tutoring for 20years.
And because I'm a tutor, my roleis, when a kid comes in for
their one hour of the entireweek to learn the entire unit
(23:13):
that they didn't understandtheir teacher explain, I have to
figure out the fastest way toteach it to them.
Now, this is unfortunate.
This puts me in a very trickyposition.
Would I love to sit with thatkid for hours and explain how
everything works?
A hundred percent.
But usually a goal, the goals ofthe parent and of the students
are, I want to feel better inclass and not be anxious around
(23:33):
math.
And I want to get a higher mark.
Those are the goals, right?
So like I wouldn't say my handsare tied because I feel like
there's a lot of freedom in whatI do, but I feel my approach has
to be different.
And usually it actually has torely, at least partially, on
direction instruction to getthrough it as fast as possible.
So I almost, I'm like, okay, atthe very least, I can get the
(23:54):
student like going through themotions of solving, you know,
here's how to factor aquadratic, just follow this
pattern, just follow thispattern.
And once they're feeling a bitconfident, I can then start
explaining to them why it works.
But I actually find if I onlyhave an hour in the week, I have
to start with the explicitinstruction, otherwise within 20
minutes, they're feeling solost, they're feeling like
(24:15):
they've made no progress andthey have to get out of there in
an hour and know how to dosomething.
So like, I think I come at itfrom that way.
And I see people like completelytaking down tutors on online and
just kind of being like, this issuch bullshit.
And like, what are you reallydoing?
And it's like, well, there is arole for everyone.
And like these kids have accessto one hour a week.
That's what they, they canafford, that's what they have
(24:36):
access to.
Depending on what your goal iswith the student and what that
student needs, like you have tobe willing to adjust and not to
just shut down somethingentirely because like the
internet is against it.
Brittany Hege (24:47):
Yeah.
So, first, I just want to likevalidate that that is a really
hard position to be in, and I'veexperienced this too, when I go
into classrooms and work withteachers and work with their
PLCs, and I'm not there longterm with that teacher or that
school, and I go in and workwith their students, it is
really hard to sit down and belike, I want to help you, but
the amount of time andexperience I know it will take
(25:09):
to get you to really understandthis concept is like much longer
than this 20 minute math center.
And so that's a really hardchallenge.
It's not something that I'venecessarily figured out yet,
like how to best support thestudent in such a short
fragmented amount of time.
But I think it's important torecognize too that like in a
(25:30):
perfect world, students wouldtruly understand, like deeply
understand every single mathconcept they face in the
classroom.
But the reality is with all ofthe standards and all of the
pressures and short timeframes,like that is just not doable.
And so really looking at likethose priority concepts, like, I
don't even, not even going topretend to know like what the
(25:51):
standards are like in Canada,but in here and we're talking
about upper elementary,fractions is huge.
And that is something thatcarries through middle school,
high school.
So when I'm working with ateacher and I'm like, if there
is one thing, like one area youreally want to grow and really
want to grow, go deep withstudents, it is fractions
because it impacts so many otherthings.
So I think it's alsoprioritizing,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:12):
That's a good point.
Brittany Hege (26:14):
And also getting really clear on your goals.
Like, as a tutor, you have tomeet the goals of the parents,
or of the teachers, whoever'ssetting those goals.
And like, their goals may bedifferent than what the goals
you would choose for that child.
And that's okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:28):
Totally.
Totally.
And also I feel like I'm like,I'm basically negotiating what
every teacher out there is doingthrough my students.
So like, right, I'm dealing with400, I have like 400 students.
So I have 400 different teacherswith different expectations and
different like ways of teachingand approaches and ways to
navigate each of those.
(26:50):
I honestly feel like you'regiving me therapy at this point.
I'm so sorry.
Brittany Hege (26:53):
Well, you came on to my podcast and gave me
therapy, so it works out.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:59):
Oh my god.
Okay, this has been so fun.
Like, this has flown by.
I also feel I've interrupted youquite a bit.
Did you, David's nodding andjust being like, what wrong with
you?
I'm so sorry, Brittany.
Brittany Hege (27:13):
You were fine.
I always love talking to you.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:15):
But I, did you even finish your last thought?
Brittany Hege (27:19):
Oh yeah, I think so.
I'm, I'm typically am finishingthoughts like mid sentence.
I saw a meme the other day thatwas like, are you the wife that
has like a conversation withyourself in your head and then
brings your husband in like onthe last 20 percent of the
conversation?
And I was like, oh, that's me.
I'll just randomly be like, andthen we're going to go here.
And he's like, what?
(27:39):
I missed something.
So I
Vanessa Vakharia (27:43):
So what would you say?
I mean, I want to ask a coupleof final questions.
What would you say, I'm askingyou this question and then I'm
going to ask the last twoquestions that are quick.
What would you say to a teacherwho's like, yeah, I, I really
agree with this.
And I feel like in order for meto be a more confident teacher
and like a, you know, lessanxious teacher, I really do
need to make peace with the maththat I'm teaching and learn it
more, but I don't have any time.
(28:04):
What's the one thing they coulddo that would move the needle
there?
Brittany Hege (28:08):
That they don't have any time.
Okay, if they don't, if theytruly do not have any time,
although I will say, I trulybelieve that exploring the math
saves you time in the long run.
But if you truly do not have asingle second of time, like, get
curious about what your studentsare doing.
If we are always tellingstudents how to do and how to
think, you're always going tosee work that is exactly like
(28:28):
mimicking exactly what you'redoing and what you're telling
them to think.
But if you give them a problemand let them explore it, you
know, students intuitively knowa lot just from life
experiences.
Like, uh, one of the 5th gradestandards is fractions as
division, and that, like, 2 3rdsis 2 divided by 3.
Well, a second grader couldfigure that out because they
(28:51):
have experience sharing twocookies with three friends.
So like give students thoseopportunities and then just be
really curious about yourstudents work.
So look at how they approachedit, think about how you would
approach it if you couldn't usean algorithm, that alone will
allow you to kind of like deepenyour understanding of the math
or see it in a different way.
(29:12):
So that's the first thing.
And the second thing, I'm like,we are in the day and age, that
just made me sound so old.
We're in the day and age wherethere is so many online
communities.
And obviously I'm biased, like,you know, follow me on
Instagram, join the UpperElementary Math Teacher's
Facebook group, read a blogpost, look on YouTube, there are
so many, and now granted, youhave to find a community that
(29:34):
feels safe to you, and that isencouraging, but just join, and
listen, and allow other people'spassions to maybe like spark
your passion and your curiosityabout, oh, is there another way
to teach this.
I feel like I'm constantly justrandomly doing math on sticky
notes because I'll seesomething, I saw it on your
Instagram, you posted somethingabout the algorithm for dividing
(29:56):
fractions, I think, and Iimmediately pull out a sticky
note, I'm like drawing picturesabout it.
So, I think we have to get to aplace where we're willing to,
like, accept that we may notunderstand it the way that we
want to, and then just, I'veused the word curiosity a
million times, but I just feel
Vanessa Vakharia (30:13):
But I love it.
Brittany Hege (30:14):
Yeah, just how, why does this work?
I have no idea.
Let's explore! Like, I feel likethat is just my math life.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:21):
Well, I will use the word I always use and
say that was very powerful.
Okay.
That was very powerful,Brittany.
Okay.
I'm going to ask you the lasttwo questions but this has just
been so illuminating and trulycathartic for me.
So thank you so much.
The first is what would, ifthere was one thing you could
change about the way math istaught in schools, what would it
be?
Brittany Hege (30:41):
I wish that it was more visual, like more hands
on.
I wish students, rather thanlearning math, were experiencing
math.
Yeah, I think just making itmore visual, whether that is
with pictures, whether that is,um, with manipulatives.
I'm big on manipulatives.
I love manipulatives.
So, there are probably a millionthings that are really important
(31:04):
to change.
This is just the one area I'mvery passionate about.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:08):
Love.
What would you say to someonewho was like, that's so cool,
really great story, like, Iwould love to get more confident
with the math I'm teaching, butlike, I'm just not a math
person.
Brittany Hege (31:23):
I think I would say, I don't know if I would say
this like in person, but whatcame to my head is like, I'm
really sorry the experiences youhave had have made you believe
that.
That's like deep in my gut whatI would want to say.
I don't know that I wouldactually say that.
Um, I don't know.
I don't know why this is such ahard question.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:40):
I think nice to say.
I think you should say that.
Well, I'm not here to tell youwhat to do, but like, if you
said that, I think that's like,really validating.
Brittany Hege (31:49):
You know, I think it was maybe Chase Orton who
said, you may not have been goodat math class, but that does not
mean that you're not good atmath.
Like distinguishing like mathfrom math class.
I love that.
So maybe in my more eloquentdays, I'll be able to validate
their experience and also tellthem like, math is so much
(32:12):
different than what you likelyexperienced growing up.
And then I would invite them tocome sit in my office and do
math on sticky notes with me.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:23):
I love that.
Okay.
You are the best.
This has been so fun.
I can't wait to hang out in reallife.
Um, Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You're amazing.
Brittany Hege (32:33):
Aw.
Well, thank you so much.
It is, like, such a joy to getto talk to you, and to meet you,
and I know you hate goodbyes, soI can be the one to say goodbye.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
Thank you! David's giving me the eye.
Thank you, Brittany.
You are my therapist! You're mymath therapist.
Brittany Hege (32:50):
Hey, I, I will take that title.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:53):
You go.
Brittany Hege (32:55):
Well, thank you for joining another episode of
the Math Therapy Podcast.
We'll talk to you later.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:03):
Bye.
David Kochberg (33:06):
Beautiful.
Professional!
Vanessa Vakharia (33:10):
I just want to start by letting everyone know
how hard it was for me to notstart this episode with"it's
Brittany, bitch".
Now that I've gotten that out ofmy system, I am obsessed with
Brittany, guys.
Like, capital O obsessed.
I loved everything about thisinterview, and I feel like I
walked away with so many gems,and quite frankly, that was kind
of the math therapy I neededwhen it comes to all of the math
related bullying I've beengetting on the internet.
(33:32):
I think the biggest takeaway forme is that there's no one right
way to teach students, becauseevery student is different.
If we can lean into that, thenwe're already doing way better
than we have in the past.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
(33:52):
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
(34:14):
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
Brittany Hege (34:27):
They are not going to, magically discover, I
don't know, that you put adecimal point between the, um,
one's place and the tenth'splace.
Like that is, there's a word forthat.
What is it?
A,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:40):
What is it?
Brittany Hege (34:41):
What's it called?
Um, I just blanked on it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:43):
I don't, I certainly don't know.
I wouldn't, I don't think you'regoing to blow my mind with
whatever it
Brittany Hege (34:48):
There, hold on.
There certain things that justare the way they are.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:53):
Oh, is that the word you're looking for, for
certain things that are the waythey are?
Brittany Hege (34:57):
Yeah.
It's just,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Facts?
Brittany Hege (34:59):
No, it's not that.
Hold on, this is probably goingto get
Vanessa Vakharia (35:02):
Oh, notation, notation,
Brittany Hege (35:04):
um, no.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:06):
David!
David Kochberg (35:07):
I don't know, I need more context.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:08):
Give us more context.
Brittany Hege (35:10):
I don't know.
It's just,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:11):
Okay, a decimal point between two
numbers, what's another exampleof this thing you're talking
about?
Brittany Hege (35:15):
or like rounding, for example.
When we round, like the factlike a five.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:20):
Rules?
Brittany Hege (35:20):
No, it's a, Ah!
Vanessa Vakharia (35:23):
rules, conjectures, uh, format, um.
David Kochberg (35:28):
You're saying random words.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:29):
Here, film
David Kochberg (35:30):
don't think understand what she's actually
saying.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:32):
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm waiting until she says
it's like that.
Like, I'm waiting for her to belike, oh, you're close.
David Kochberg (35:37):
Well let her explain the whole example.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:39):
Oh, okay.
Brittany Hege (35:40):
it's, um,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:41):
She's stuck.
Brittany Hege (35:43):
I know, I cannot, I'm going to be able to pull it
out.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:45):
Here, Dave film, can you get some content
for fuck's sake?
Okay, hold on.
Hey Siri, what do you call Okay,hold on, hold on.
Siri needs to get on this.
One second.
David Kochberg (35:56):
But you don't even understand what you're
asking.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:58):
Shh!
David Kochberg (35:58):
You just keep interrupting her.
Siri (36:00):
Sorry about that.
David Kochberg (36:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Siri agrees.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:04):
Hey Siri, what do you call it when there are
certain rules in math?
Siri (36:09):
I found this on the web.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:11):
Expressions.
No, that's not it.
I don't know.
Britt.
Brittany Hege (36:14):
I'm, I'm, I'm looking at ChatGPT.
A convention! Oh my gosh.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:19):
Convention! She looked at ChatGPT.
That's what I was gonna do.
What was your prompt?
Brittany Hege (36:23):
What is the word that is used in math education
for things that are just ruleslike a five rounds up?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:28):
That fucking ChatGPT.
David Kochberg (36:31):
This is what you wanted me to film.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:32):
This is good content! Anyway, sorry, Britt,
as you were saying.
Brittany Hege (36:36):
It's a convention.
It is a convention.
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