April 4, 2024 • 42 mins
Longtime listeners (like today’s guest, as you’ll discover…) will recall one name popping up in almost every interview last season, so Vanessa needed to find out for herself: who is Zak Champagne & why do people like him so much?! Through today’s rollercoaster episode she discovered a teacher with boundless enthusiasm for the joys of teaching, grounded in a deep respect for his students.
They unpack what we really mean by terms like “student voice” and “building trust”, offer practical advice on how to actually integrate those ideas into the classroom when teachers are already so strapped for time, and discuss how giving students a sense of purpose and community doesn’t just help them learn - it could even save their lives.
About Zak (Website, Twitter)
Zak Champagne began his career as an elementary school teacher in Jacksonville, Florida, receiving many state and national awards including the Presidential Award for Excellence in Mathematics and Science Teaching (PAEMST). Zak then spent six years as a researcher at the Florida Center for Research in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (FCR-STEM) at FSU before serving as the Director of Teacher Leadership at the Jacksonville Public Education Fund. Zak returned to the classroom in the fall of 2019 as a Lower Elementary Teacher (grades 3 and 4), Director of Mathematics, and Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) at The Discovery School.
Show notes:
- Zak’s Blog: Control vs. trust in the classrom
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zak Champagne (00:02):
If I get to spend 180 days in the classroom with a
kid, I would rather them leavemy classroom having a positive
outlook on who they are as amath learner than knowing a
bunch of shit about math.
I think it's more important fortheir well being and their
future that they walk outfeeling like they have a
connection and they seethemselves as a math learner
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so if you listened to thelast season of Math Therapy, you
probably noticed that the mostname dropped person was a guy
named Zak Champagne.
Like guys, I'm not kidding.
Almost every one of our guestswas like, Zak Champagne this,
and Zak Champagne that, andlike, blah, blah, blah, blah, I
love Zak.
So, of course, I needed to findout for myself what the hype was
(01:07):
all about.
And let me tell you, the hype isreal.
Zak has been an elementaryclassroom teacher for over 20
years and has won a ton of stateand national awards for
excellence in teaching,including the Presidential Award
for Excellence in Mathematicsand Science Teaching.
Like, guys, he met a real lifepresident.
Zak really gets the profoundimpact of trust and respect in
(01:28):
the classroom and justunderstands that learning can't
happen without that foundation.
This episode was truly a wildride because I have to say that
Zak easily makes the top threeall time awkward starts to a
Math Therapy interview, but wequickly recovered and had a very
moving discussion about howgiving students meaning and a
sense of belonging can help usavoid losing students both
(01:50):
inside and outside of ourclassrooms.
Hello.
Zak Champagne.
Welcome to the pod.
Zak Champagne (01:58):
What's up?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:59):
Okay.
So the reason I'm being so.
What?
Zak Champagne (02:02):
No, I was just going to say, well, go ahead.
You go ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:04):
No, you go
Zak Champagne (02:04):
This is gonna a great start.
This is a real shady startalready.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:07):
You start!
Zak Champagne (02:08):
I just was going to say to everyone out there
that I'm a long time listener,but first time caller.
And if you get that reference,you're as old as me.
Um, so there you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:18):
What's that?
Zak Champagne (02:19):
You don't know that saying?
Maybe
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Are you trying to figure out if I'm as old as
you?
Is that what
Zak Champagne (02:23):
No, I'm sure you are as old as me or I'm assuming
close.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:27):
I'm not going to tell you because I'm age
fluid and then that's just theway it is.
Zak Champagne (02:30):
Okay.
All right.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:31):
But when what year were you born?
Zak Champagne (02:33):
76.
I'm four, I'm 47.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:35):
You think I'm 47?
Zak Champagne (02:37):
Yeah, Did we just end the podcast?
Are we done?
Is it over?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:42):
Do you sincerely think I'm 47?
Zak Champagne (02:44):
No, I think you're, am I allowed to guess
without you getting mad?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna tell, I, I, but
like,
Zak Champagne (02:49):
I would say I would say early forties, late
thirties would be my guess.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:54):
But did you, I need to know honestly, did you
think I was 47 potentially?
Zak Champagne (02:59):
No, but I think if you were in your early
forties, you'd still get thereference of longtime listener,
first time caller.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:05):
Okay, we're gonna move on.
So I don't get that reference.
I do not get that reference,number one.
Zak Champagne (03:10):
Okay.
Fair.
bad start here.
All right.
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:13):
I'm kidding.
I love you.
Okay, here we go.
So the reason I really wantedyou on I was just saying that I
saw you speak in 2022, uh, atNCTM, it was my first NCTM, I've
never been in that world untilthen.
So it was like my first time,fresh eyes.
And I was like, everyone waslike Zak Champagne, Zak
Champagne.
And I was like, this guy hassuch a dope name.
Like I'm just to see what allthe hype is about, you know?
(03:36):
So I go to your talk.
And I remember your talk beinggreat, but that's actually not
what I remember the most.
What I remember the most was theaudience reaction.
I remember, like, Crystal, like,giving you a standing ovation.
I didn't even know who she was.
I was just like, what ishappening?
Like, everyone's, like,reacting, like, so, lovingly to
Zak Champagne.
I also don't think I can sayZak, everyone's always like, Zak
(03:57):
Champagne, Zak Champagne, and Iwas like, what's with this guy?
Like, you know, people love totalk shit about everyone, and
I've never heard anyone talkshit about you.
So like, what, why does everyonelike you so much?
Zak Champagne (04:08):
Oh my God.
What a crazy first question.
Like I gotta like build my, um,my ego up a little bit here and
which
Vanessa Vakharia (04:15):
No, the first question was, do you really
think I'm 47?
the second question, okay,
Zak Champagne (04:20):
This the second question.
Um, yeah, I do know about yourlove of astrology, and I'm a
Leo, I'm not afraid to, like,yeah, roll the eyes, right?
Like, I'm all about myself.
I'm totally, you know, selfcentered, I think I can save the
world and change the world.
So I'm not too mad to, like,talk about why people don't hate
me.
I guess maybe that's a better
Vanessa Vakharia (04:40):
I love this.
Also, Leo's are reallymisunderstood.
A lot of a Leo is about passionand bringing passion to what
they do.
Zak Champagne (04:47):
I would say that I think that is a big part of
who I am.
I love, I love this work.
I love being around young peopleand learning alongside them,
learning with and from them.
I think that's a space in thesort of math education sphere
that like isn't often talkedabout as much as it should be,
which is like, this work that weare gifted and able to do is so
(05:07):
special and so wonderful.
And the opportunity to get to bealongside young people that
much, it makes me so happy andit fills me with so much energy
and joy.
And then when I get to work withteachers and be in front of
teachers, I just try to sharethat.
I try to share their voices.
And I think, I think thatresonates with people.
Um, I think you you go to thesemath education conferences and
(05:29):
there's like two camps in mymind.
There's like the likeresearcher, I've been out of the
classroom for a very long timeand I have, but I have some
ideas that, that are important,I'm not knocking that that lane,
just not the lane I'm in.
And then there's sort of like,the people who are just really
good speakers, and I love goingto see them as well, they
inspire me, they give me ideas.
But there's this lane that's notfilled with like an actual
(05:51):
classroom teacher who, who cantalk about the practice and the
work that we do every day, butalso has a way, and again, I'm
filling my own bucket here toanswer your question, which is
like also has a way, I think, toconnect with people.
And I think part of that is theLeo in me and the sort of
passion in me.
But it also is like, I truly dojust love being around people,
and talking with them andlearning with them.
(06:11):
And so hopefully, you know, thatcomes across, and people, you
know, get that about me that I'mjust interested in like knowing
your world and like knowing whoyou are and learning with you.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
Do you have any haters that you know about?
Zak Champagne (06:26):
Oh, good question.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Because like I've discovered I do recently.
Zak Champagne (06:32):
Really?
Interesting.
I don't think there are any likeoutward haters.
There are certainly people,particularly locally, um, where
I live who like probably havehad enough of me and I, I can
see that, right?
Like, um, you know, I was, I wasborn and raised in Jacksonville,
Florida, and now I'm going todigress for a minute, I'm going
(06:53):
to ask that none of yourlisteners judge me by my state,
um, it's a hot mess down therein Florida, but I was born and
raised there, and I've done alot of work to try and make that
place better.
But I've also, you know,Jacksonville's a really small,
kind of big town, and soeverybody kind of knows
everybody.
So I would imagine, particularlyin the education space, there
are people in in Jacksonvillewho are kind of like, all right,
that guy's had enough.
(07:13):
Let, let's, let's, let's stoplistening to him.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:16):
Okay, so this is really interesting.
You said people have had enoughof you, maybe, whatever.
And you also talked about howmuch you love, which I love how
you started this by talkingabout how much you love being
around young people like me.
So that's really nice that we'rehere together.
Um, but.
One thing I, you know, in justkind of like looking at the work
you've done and even just beingaround you, like, one thing that
(07:38):
I find so special about you isthat you really, in a non
cheesy, like, non performativeway, really do value student
voice.
And I, I hate saying thatbecause it's such a catchphrase,
but you just said it best, beinglike, I love being around young
people, learning with them,hearing what they have to say.
So.
It's weird to me because I'mlike, isn't that, like,
shouldn't that be such anobvious thing that teachers
(07:58):
love?
Like, that's what they do everyday.
But where do you think we'vesort of gone wrong there?
Like, why do you think you're sounique in that?
Like, do you think it really isthat, like, other teachers,
like, don't love being aroundyoung people?
Or that they don't know how tolisten to them?
Or, like, what is it?
Zak Champagne (08:13):
I think it's a couple of things.
You mentioned some of them.
One is I don't, I don't thinkthere are very many teachers who
like, don't like being aroundyoung people, right?
Like this work's way too hard tolike, not enjoy that.
I think what's happened is thissystem that we built has robbed
them of the opportunity to enjoybeing around young people and
listening to their ideas, Ithink the system has been set up
(08:36):
so that they are so focused onkids getting answers and kids
getting questions right on testsor whatever.
And so they're sort of forced,their hand is forced a little
bit to focus only on outcomes asopposed to like the human beings
that are in the room.
Um, so I think one, it's thatthe system is set up to do that.
And I do think, um, two, it'slike the time, which is also
(09:00):
part of the system.
But like, I think teachers arepressed for time.
Of course they are right.
It's not quick to sit and listento a seven year old talk about
their math ideas, right?
Like they have lots they want totell you about right?
And so that takes so much timeand so much energy.
And I will also say and this, Ihope this does not come across
as a knock to teachers because Idon't mean that in this way at
all.
But what I, it's been myexperience that listening to
(09:22):
kids and, trying to makeinstructional decisions in the
moment.
Um, it's really hard to do.
It's really complex andchallenging work and, and the
sort of thousands of microdecisions we make every day that
impact outcomes, it's reallycognitively demanding for
teachers.
Even, even those of us have beendoing it for a really long time.
And so sometimes, and again,this is why I don't mean this as
(09:44):
a knock.
This work is so hard.
Sometimes it's just easier, tolike focus on answers, let's get
some stuff done and move on,because it doesn't wear you down
and break you down.
Like that work, it's incrediblycomplex.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:56):
So, has anyone, you know, you're a big
proponent of being like, well,like I know it's time consuming,
but we really need to listen toyoung people in the classroom,
that's where our strength lies,and we're going to talk more
about that.
Has anyone ever come for youbeing like, no, we don't need to
do that.
I don't know what they wouldhave said.
And I'm really making this aboutmyself.
So I don't know who the real Leoin the room is.
I'm a Gemini, so whatever,
Zak Champagne (10:17):
Fair.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:18):
But I am so curious because I've been
finding that lately, like theentire math education world is
like people coming for eachother and being like, no, like
we shouldn't be listening tostudents talk, like we should be
telling like.
I, I actually haven't heardanyone say that specifically,
but being like, no, like directinstruction or no, like we
shouldn't be talking aboutmindfulness.
Has anyone ever been like, no,Zak, no, we should not be
(10:38):
listening to, to students.
That's not
Zak Champagne (10:41):
I mean, I would, I would imagine there are people
who believe some version ofthat.
Maybe the argument is somethinglike, you know, we, we really
want to prepare kids for theworld and, and to do that, they
have to like, grunt through allthis stuff.
And like, not, it's not, theirideas aren't, aren't what
matters here, it's like, yeah,getting to understand whatever
the thing we're trying to teachthem is.
(11:01):
So maybe there's some version oflike, you know, that.
I don't believe that, but Ithink there's some version of
that somewhere.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:08):
But you've never heard anyone say that to
you, or you've never been awarethat people are like, what Zak
is saying is bullshit.
Really?
Zak Champagne (11:15):
No, no one said that to me.
And I think, I mean, it is nice,but I do think I, I'm old
enough, we'll go back to age, myfriend, um, sorry to, triggering
here, but I'm old enough tolike, to like surround myself
with people that, that I reallylove and care for and do align
with those sort of valuesbecause they're that important
to me, um, and I also reallystay off Twitter X, whatever
Vanessa Vakharia (11:41):
So that's what, that's what it is.
You're, you're staying off ofsocial media.
I see.
Ok, that's a skill I don't have.
Zak Champagne (11:47):
And I don't have like, I have a personal
Instagram account.
I don't have like a Instagramaccount that's like, like for
the work I do.
So I don't, that's a happierplace, I think, at least for me.
But, um, yeah, staying away fromthat has been really good for my
health.
Now that you say that, there wasa time where I called out our
governor in Florida for some ofhis terrible policies in
(12:08):
education.
And boy, did the right wing comefor me on that.
Um, which was kind of actuallyjust funny to watch for a while.
Cause you know, they're all likebots, like they're not real
people,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:18):
But it still, like, stings, when you see
enough
Zak Champagne (12:21):
It does, Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
Okay.
Well, great, good for you fornot being on social media,
that's really great.
And I don't know how to do that.
Zak Champagne (12:29):
And sorry, Vanessa, let's also, let's also
acknowledge the elephant in theroom, which is a white straight
cis male does not get attackedquite nearly as much as, as
women or queer folks or peopleof color.
So, like, I have this sort of,like, intangible thing, which,
you know, gives me anincredible, incredible amount of
(12:49):
privilege,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:50):
Well, thank you for acknowledging that
because yes, I constantly getcomments being like, somebody
with sparkly eyeshadow shouldn'tbe talking about math education.
I'm like, babe, what's that Venndiagram, doesn't make sense.
Okay, you were like, talkingabout how one of the reasons you
think that it's so hard toincorporate student voice into
like the real life mathclassroom is just due to time.
(13:11):
What advice would you have for ateacher who listens to this and
is like, okay, well, I genuinelydo want to like hear what my
students have to say and somehowincorporate that into my
pedagogy.
Like, what do I do?
Do you have any, any tips forsomeone who feels strapped for
time?
Because, like this podcast isMath Therapy, and one of the
biggest things is how to makesure that everyone's math story
and math identity and previousmath traumas are valued in the
(13:32):
classroom in as little time aspossible.
And I feel there is a way tolike integrate it holistically
without being like, we'respending specific lessons on
learning who you are, but Iwonder what you have to say.
Zak Champagne (13:44):
There's a saying in the South, that, uh, if you
don't have time to do it right,you must have time to do it
twice.
And kind of kind of think thatapplies here, which is like,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:53):
What does that mean?
Zak Champagne (13:54):
To me, what it means is, I think listening to
kids and giving kids space tobuild their math identities is
the right thing to do.
And so while that takes moretime, if you don't do that, what
you're going to end up doing isdoing this other thing multiple
times and never moving forward.
Right?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:11):
Ooh, I love this.
Zak Champagne (14:13):
So you sort of take the time to do it right the
first time, so you don't have todo it again and again and again
as these kids get older.
So for me, it's all about likespending the time.
And I've always said this.
And this, doesn't bode well forthat metaphorical person we were
talking about a few minutes agothat makes up this argument,"why
would I listen to kids?" Um, butlike, I would rather, if I get
to spend 180 days in theclassroom with a kid, I would
(14:36):
rather them leave my classroomhaving a positive outlook on who
they are as a math learner thanknowing a bunch of shit about
math.
I think it's more important fortheir well being and their
future that they walk outfeeling like they have a
connection and they seethemselves as a math learner,
and I think that to me is moreimportant.
And so that's why I say thattime is well spent because
(14:57):
they're going to walk out withthat positive feeling about who
they are as a math learner.
And that's going to serve thembetter than like knowing about
ratios and proportions orwhatever it is, you know what I
mean?
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
Yeah, I love how you said that because I
always say that too, like thegoal of math therapy for me
isn't that every student getslike an A, it's that every
student leaves the classroomfeeling like anything is
possible, starting with theirability to just develop a teensy
weensy bit of a betterrelationship with math, like
that is like such abreakthrough.
But that being said, teachersand educators are still under so
(15:30):
much pressure and kids under areunder so much pressure to be
like, but I need these specificgrades and I need these specific
skills like they're so, and itis important, right?
Like the, both the things areimportant, I think we're both
aligned on what's the mostimportant.
Zak Champagne (15:41):
Right,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:42):
I always think like, the two often go hand in
hand, right?
Because you're talking aboutthat idea of doing things twice.
When we think about like chronicabsenteeism or turning in things
late or disengagement, all ofthat is often a result of like a
math trauma that is neveraddressed or a math identity
that is never healed.
So like, I think that kind ofgoes along to what you're saying
of like, okay, if you don't wantto do the identity work though,
(16:05):
you're going to have so muchmore trouble reaching those
students that they'll stillnever leave your classroom
understanding ratios.
Zak Champagne (16:11):
Right,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:12):
So it's like maybe take a shot, take a shot
at it, help them with theiridentity, maybe the ratios
follow, maybe they don't, buteither way they're leaving with
something of value, if not twothings.
Zak Champagne (16:23):
Yep.
So I, I tell this to parents alot when, when they ask about
this sort of like why we spendso much time on building
positive math identities.
And I think I first heard thisfrom Annette Johnson, she's a
California person, and I thinkin one of her ShadowCon talks,
she talked about this, I don'tknow where it all came from,
maybe it's from a bunch ofpeople, but this sort of idea
that there's a cycle oflearning, which is like, the
more you do something, thebetter you get at it.
(16:44):
Right.
As a musician, as a, as a,someone who plays sports, like
the practice part, um, is whatmakes you better at it, but
like, you don't actually want todo the practice, unless you're
good at it.
It's like, how do I get intothis circle, which is like, I
got to do more of it to getbetter at it, but I got to like
it to want to do it.
So it's like, then all of asudden I'm getting better at it.
So I like it more, which meansI'm going to do it more.
(17:05):
And I'm in that cycle.
And I think there's two entrypoints in there.
Either you're good at it and youget into it.
Or you want to do it, right,because you feel like you want
to try and do it.
And I think that's the easierway for most kids to get in.
If we're talking about math, Iwould argue that even for like
musicians and sports folks aswell, like feeling like you can
do it is the entry point becausethen you're going to want to do
(17:27):
it more and then you startgetting better at it and you
stay in that cycle.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:31):
We can't just have people entering from the
like, I know how, right?
Because then like, you're gonnamiss all these people.
So yeah.
So it's like, how do you getstudents to want to do it?
And I think this is where yourwork comes in.
How does valuing, first of all,what does it mean?
I don't, I hate throwing aroundthe term student voice.
Tell me what it means togenuinely value a student's
voice and tell me how that helpsa student enter in at the"want
(17:55):
to do it" part of that cycle.
Like give me tangible things youdo.
Zak Champagne (17:59):
Ok I will, but I'm gonna say one thing first,
which I think is in, in myclassroom, which I would I try
to qualify my classroom as asocial classroom, right?
I think about this as a placewhere kids are able to talk or
write about their math thinking.
And then the second part of thatthat's so important is that
everyone in the space deemsthose ideas as valuable or
(18:21):
holding some kind of value.
That is really hard to do,right?
So because, because kids arekids and they can be jerks
sometimes, let's be honest.
And I don't think they mean tobe, but they can say things
sometimes that can be harmful toother people.
And sometimes they don't mean tobe, they're just sort of like,
"that's not right", or somethinglike that, right?
Like they say things that can beharmful to each other.
But for me, it's about trying tobuild a space where kids feel
(18:45):
safe, and they feel loved, andthey feel valued, right?
Um, and so to do that thing, Ithink we have to do a couple of
things.
One, we have to be explicit.
We have to, like, say the quietpart out loud to kids, which is
your voice matters in myclassroom.
I want to hear from all of you.
I think you make us better whenwe get to learn with you.
Like we just you have to saythose things, right?
(19:08):
And also I think we have torethink what participation
actually looks like.
So when we say student voice,that thing you're talking about,
right?
It's not always talking.
You can participate in a mathlesson by listening, right?
In fact, that's how most kidsparticipate in math lessons.
So I try to help my kidsunderstand how to be a better
(19:29):
listener to each other.
What are the things that we doas listeners when our classmates
are talking?
Because actually, you're goingto listen a whole lot more in a
math class than you're going totalk.
I don't care who you are, howsocial the space you make.
Even for me, I have anincredibly low number of kids, I
have 18 kids.
But can you imagine?
There's never a day in a mathclass where all 18 kids have a
(19:50):
chance to talk to the wholeclass.
That doesn't happen.
You're just going to be activelylistening more than you're going
to be speaking.
So when I say student voice, I'mtalking about like all the ways
we can show up and participatein a math class, and it's not
just talking.
It's not just showing your work,right?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:06):
I think that's actually really important to,
um, unpack a lot of these terms,like growth mindset, student
voice, like humanizing math,it's like, what does that mean?
When you just say those wordswithout context, they mean
different things to differentpeople.
So we get frustrated because wethink we're doing the thing, but
we're doing something totallydifferent than the person who
like said it to us intended.
It's like the word love, youknow, when someone says it to
you, you're like, when you sayyou love me, does it mean the
same thing as when I say I loveyou though?
(20:28):
Like, and now we're operatingunder two things.
Okay.
Also I'd just like to say thatyou have made this very
accessible, I think.
Because like, this is less of alike, activity and more of a
classroom ethos, right?
Like,
Zak Champagne (20:41):
That's exactly right.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:42):
And it takes two minutes to be like your
opinion matters and this is whatit means to me, you know, and
saying those little things inthat language and reinforcing
behavior is like, thank you,it's really great to see you
actively listening or like, Ireally love the way you like
were patient and whatever, allthat stuff is just stuff you can
weave in.
Zak Champagne (20:59):
And then like, I think repairing harm, right?
Like when kids do say thingsthat are, that are unkind,
whether they're intentional orunintentional, like a lot of
times what will happen is if akid sharing an idea in my class
and they say what their answeris or ideas and a kid like
disagrees, they'll say like,that's not, that's not right.
And that's harmful, right?
That, that is like a shot tolike your, your ethos of like, I
thought I was doing okay.
(21:20):
Right.
Right.
And so thinking about, like weuse nonverbal signs a lot in our
classroom, right?
So, like, that's another way youcan show up, participate, right?
So, like, when Vanessa sharingher idea and my idea is similar,
I can use this agree sign,right?
That's a way for me tocommunicate with you, like, I
thought like you thought, right?
But I don't have to, like, stopyou or interrupt you, but I'm
communicating to you.
Like, hey, we're on the samepage, right?
(21:40):
And the same thing withdisagree.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
We're on a podcast.
Zak Champagne (21:43):
I know.
Sorry.
Agree is, so the sign language
Vanessa Vakharia (21:45):
No one can see you.
Zak Champagne (21:47):
It's mostly a, um, audio medium, but there's a
video component somewhere inhere, I don't know.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:52):
There is.
No, no, just explain what you'redoing because I think it's
important.
Zak Champagne (21:55):
The, the sign language for agree is sort of
like, uh, I guess, like, the oldhang loose sign, but you sort of
point to your chest, then youpoint to the other person with
that.
So that's a way to communicateto each other.
Like, I agree with what you'resaying, or I thought like you're
thinking, without interruptingthem.
And then also we use both armssort of like in the shape of an
X.
Like if you disagree withsomeone, you can use this sign
as a way to say, like, Idisagree with what you're
(22:15):
saying, but I'm not outwardlyyelling that at you right now.
Right.
And that's a more subtle way tolike, just sort of communicate.
And then the other one that weuse a lot, and again, I think
these are ways that kids areparticipating and they are
communicating and that they'reusing their voice without the
actual voice, is if Vanessa issaying something in the class
and I want to add on to it, weuse the sort of like two fists
(22:36):
on top of each other back andforth, which is like this is
saying, like, I want to build onwhat Vanessa is saying, I want
to add something to that.
And those are all ways you canshow up and your voice can be
heard without actually speaking,I think.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:47):
I love that.
Okay.
I love this so much.
Can we talk about trust for asecond?
Zak Champagne (22:51):
Oh yeah, please.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:53):
Okay, so, we have all of these ideas and
these different, like, pedagogyideas and frameworks and this
and that, but often the piece ofthe conversation that's missing
is, like, for any of these toactually work effectively, we
need to have a classroom spacewhere there is trust built in.
Both ways.
Like, we have to trust ourstudents, our students have to
trust us.
But again, trust is one of thosewords that just gets thrown
around and we don't know, likewhat it actually means.
(23:15):
So what does it mean to you?
Zak Champagne (23:19):
The first thing that comes into my mind when you
say trust in the class, if we'retalking about a classroom space,
I think the thing, this is not,I don't think probably the most
common way people think abouttrust, but the way that I think
about it is like, do I trust mykids with the material?
Do I trust that, I trust themwith the content that I want
them to engage with?
Do I trust them to engage inappropriate ways, even when I'm
(23:42):
not there.
I believe that no matter where akid is on their learning path
that we should trust them withgrade level content.
Now, grade level content is a,that's another word that we all
think, it means different thingsto different people.
But for me, it means like, allright, this is something that a
fourth grader would typicallydo.
I should trust that you canengage with it no matter what
your history is, and I have tothink about how I can support
you in that.
(24:02):
The second part of that is thatI'm going to trust that you're
going to engage with the workand engage with each other in
appropriate ways.
And so one of the things that Ithink so much about, um, this
will get back to trust.
I'm gonna go on a little detour.
Hang with me, people.
Don't put this on double speed,listeners.
I promise it's gonna we're gonnaget back.
I love sitting next to youngpeople when they're talking
(24:25):
about their math thinking.
I love listening to kids talk toeach other.
I love listening to them talk tome.
It is hands down the best partabout my job.
But what I have to remind myselfof is that the second that I sit
down next to young people, Ihave now changed the dynamic of
that group, right?
My, my positional power that youhold as a teacher changes that
(24:47):
conversation.
So.
What we have to do as teachersis we have to make the
intentional decision.
Is it worth me going over thereand sitting down next to these
kids right now?
Do I need to know what they'resaying or do I need to trust
that they are actually talkingabout the content and they are
having a conversation thatmatters that can exist without
me being a part of it.
(25:08):
And that's why I think, likethat piece of trust is hard.
Because one, again, it's fun.
I love listening to people talk.
And two, usually what happens isif I go sit down next to a
couple of kids, I'm going to usethat information to drive our
whole group learning forward.
But sometimes, I think, and whatI'm challenging myself to do
more of is, sometimes I have totrust that that conversation can
(25:30):
live as it is.
And I don't have to like, changeit by sitting down.
I don't have to like, shareeverything that every kid says.
Like, it can exist.
And I have to trust that kidscan do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:40):
Okay, but how are we creating the space for
kids to trust you and to trustone another?
Zak Champagne (25:46):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:46):
How do you do that and what does that mean?
Because you're talking aboutthis incredible stuff of, of
students being able to like usethese hand signals to show
whether they agree or disagree,for kids to actually listen to
one another, but they can't dothat unless they trust you and
they trust one another.
Zak Champagne (26:01):
Time, right?
Like it takes time.
And I think it goes back to evenwhat I was saying earlier, which
is like, one, you have to beexplicit with kids.
I, I don't think we try to besubtle with kids.
We should say to them, I trustyou.
I believe you're gonna be ableto do this work.
I believe in you.
Right?
Like, I don't care if, if thosekids we're talking about are
high school seniors, I thinkwe'd say to them like, I trust
you to engage with this work.
And I, I also get to teach asection of eighth grade math as
(26:24):
well at my school, it's a smallschool, I have third and fourth
graders most of the day, and Iteach eighth grade as well.
And with those eighth graders,the thing I say to them on the
first day of school is, um, youremotional and physical well
being will always be moreimportant to me than the math.
And that means that if you cometo me and you say, I didn't do
my homework last night, I'mgoing to say, okay, cool, what's
going on?
Can I help?
How can I support you?
(26:44):
What do you need from me?
Right?
As opposed to like coming atthat with, with like a, Oh, you
have to have this punishment nowif you didn't do your homework
or whatever.
Right?
So like being clear with kidsthat like, I am here for you and
you can trust me is, it'sexplicit.
And it's also, it just takestime.
You got to prove it to them,right?
They have to, you have to showthem over time.
You know, we show up over time,right?
(27:07):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:07):
And this is just not unlike any
relationship, like romantic,friendship, whatever.
It's that, like, you know, trustisn't just built in the words
you say, but in proving thevalidity of those words with
your action.
So, like, you can't, you know,you can't say, I trust you and
then be like, but I also need tosit next to you every time you
say something to just make sure.
(27:27):
You know, like then a kid knowslike, no, you don't.
And I, and I love that.
And I also think it's reallyimportant to like, really point
out that like you, if you'relistening to this and you're
like, I'm going to do this, you,you might be the first adult in
a kid's life that shows themtrue and actual trust.
Zak Champagne (27:44):
And so remind yourself as a teacher that if
you are in fact the first adultin a child's life that's ever
said that to them, they're notgoing to trust you the first
time.
That it's going to take a longtime.
And so when you continue to faillike I do every single day, like
we do every single day, justforgive yourself, know that it's
okay, and that there might besome kids who you can do that
(28:06):
all year long for, and it maynever be until three or four
years later that they come backand say, Oh my gosh, you
trusting me, you telling me allthat, like, did make a
difference.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's not going to happenthe first, the first day of
school.
It's particularly not going tohappen for young people who've
never had an adult that they cantrust.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:23):
And I mean, this is where I just think about
math trauma and the fact that,like, you are in most cases
dealing with students who havesome sort of wound around math
and it's going to take time foryou to, like, actually help them
heal that to a point where theycan trust you.
Like, I went to a public schooland I failed grade 11 math
twice, and fast forward, myparents sent me to this
(28:44):
alternative school like a schoolfor misfits.
Teachers were called by theirfirst names, we were allowed to
chew gum in class, and we neverhad to raise our hand if we had
to go to the bathroom.
And it changed the entiredynamic because that, I felt
that I was like, Oh my God, theytrust us.
Like they trust that if I haveto go to the bathroom, I
shouldn't have to ask cause I'mgoing to pee my fucking pants
and I should just go, you know?
(29:05):
And even just the, like the, thedynamic of calling them by their
first names, like they'rementors.
Anyway.
So you can think there's so manyways to build trust is my point.
Those little actions reallyworked for us in that school.
So, um,
Zak Champagne (29:18):
Totally.
We go by our first names in myschool.
I'm Mr Zak all day long.
I love it.
I actually would love it if wecould drop the Mr.
I would love to just be Zak,because it's, you're right, it
changes the power dynamic in theroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:29):
And it does.
And it's not like, Oh my God,then they're not going to
respect us.
Like no, in many cases, therespect just becomes a little
more mutual, you know, and theyfeel that accountability for
being like, I don't want to, Idon't want to lose that trust.
Like I want to be able to likechew gum and go to the bathroom
when I need to.
And so, yeah, yeah, it's cool,those little things.
Okay, this is a podcast aboutmath trauma.
(29:50):
I know I keep saying that, butthere's a quote I read by you
somewhere who knows where, soyou said, let's listen to our
students no matter howostracized they feel, no matter
their relationship with math, nomatter their race or background.
It's our job to make each andevery student understand that
they are a part of somethingbigger and to let them know they
matter".
What do you mean when you saythat they are a part of
(30:10):
something bigger?
Zak Champagne (30:12):
Let me tell you the, um, the background on that
quote.
I wrote that, and I wrote alonger blog post about this, um,
right after the Marjory Stone,um, oh gosh, the name of the
school in Florida where the bigshooting was, um, Marjorie
Stoneman Douglas.
That's the name of the school.
So after that, it was thathorrific shooting, 20 plus
people killed, um, just aterrible thing.
(30:35):
And, you know, there's afterevery school shooting, there's
always this crazy argument fromboth sides about is it about
guns or is it about people?
And, um, I tried to like, justlike stay clear of that whole
thing for a minute and just saylike, you know what?
Do you know what actuallymatters more than any of that?
Is that the kid who committedthat horrendous act felt so
(30:58):
ostracized, and felt so not apart of something, that they
felt like they had to do that?
And so for me, what that's allabout is like, as a math
teacher, as a teacher of youngpeople, like, let's make sure
kids feel like they're a part ofsomething.
I don't care what that somethingis because it gives them a
reason to keep going.
And so we have the opportunityas math teachers to make them
(31:20):
feel like they're part of theclassroom.
They're part of, um, they have,they're connected to me.
They're connected to each other.
They're connected to thecontent.
That connection, I think, is oneof the ways we help people feel
like they're not alone and feellike they are a part of
something that matters.
And so I think we have theopportunity to do that as
teachers is make sure that nomatter what that kid looks like,
(31:41):
sounds like, how different theyare from you, that they feel
connected to something in yourroom.
It's a tiny, tangible thing thatyou can do, I think, that will
make a big difference for a lotof kids if they feel like
they're connected to something.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:54):
It's interesting because, um, have
you, first of all, that's suchan incredible way of looking at
it, and I always feel like mathteachers have this opportunity
that no one else does because somany kids feel like they're not
a part of the math community,that you have this, like,
opportunity to, like, just fixthat right there and then.
Um, Have you heard of the BlueZones?
Zak Champagne (32:15):
No,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:16):
world's five blue zones?
Um, they're the five countriesin the world where people live
the longest, most fulfillinglives.
So people have been like, one ofthem is like Linda Loma,
California.
One of them's in Greece.
One of them's in Japan.
One of them's in Italy.
They've studied them and they'vefound these characteristics that
all these places have in common.
Like one of them is like accessto like farm to table food.
(32:36):
Another one is whatever.
But one of the things ispurpose.
It's, it's even when you're 92,when you've retired, whatever,
it's waking up and knowing thereis a purpose to you going
through the day.
So a lot of these places areplaces where, um, they live
intergenerationally, where likethey take care of one another,
like where they farm, likewhatever.
And it's like this idea of likewhen you are purposeless there
(33:00):
is this darkness that isinexplicable because truly why
the fuck are we on this planet?
What is the point of it all?
Right.
So, and kids, even though theymight not phrase it in that way,
especially think of the monotonyof going to school every day and
like slogging through, like whythe f why?
Zak Champagne (33:16):
Can you imagine how fucking hard it is for a
third grader to walk into theclassroom every day?
And here's what we ask them todo.
We ask them to sit down and trya problem they've never frickin
done before.
Can you imagine if every day forthe rest of your life you had to
go into like a honors calculusclass?
And in front of your friends,we're gonna ask you, Hey, solve
this thing you've never donebefore and if you feel really
good about it, tell everybodyhow you did it.
(33:36):
That's frickin terrifying, dude.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:38):
And why?
Zak Champagne (33:39):
so giving them purpose, like when you were
talking about purpose, I thinkthat's a better way to talk
about this, which is like,there's got to be something,
some reason I'm going to show upand try this today.
Right?
I have to have a reason to showup here today.
And again, whether thatconnection or that purpose is
like some some connection withme as the teacher, whether it's
a classmate, there are a groupof classmates that you have.
Or the content, I think we haveto acknowledge to that, like
(34:02):
some kids do really feelconnected to the content.
There's something that they likeabout math, right?
And that's a beautiful thing.
And so how do we help themremember that connection so that
they have the purpose that thatyou're talking about?
Why are they called blue zones?
I don't, I missed that part ofthe
Vanessa Vakharia (34:16):
Um, I, I actually don't know.
That's a
Zak Champagne (34:19):
I thought it was going to be a sad place, like
when you said blue zones, I was
Vanessa Vakharia (34:22):
Why are they called?
Okay, David, David, note fromproducer.
"The name Blue Zone derivedsimply during the original
survey by scientists who used ablue pen on a map to mark the
villages with long livedpopulations."
Zak Champagne (34:35):
Stop it right now.
Fantastic.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:39):
Okay, that is, David, wow, what a great
producer.
Um, We have to do the final twoquestions.
Zak Champagne (34:44):
Let's go.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:45):
Okay.
That is the sound of Zak rubbinghis hands together in
anticipation.
Question number one.
If there was one thing you couldchange about math education,
what would it be?
Zak Champagne (34:58):
Um, I would lessen the number of God.
This is gonna be controversialfor some people.
Stay with me here.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:04):
Let's get cancelled together.
Let's do it.
Zak Champagne (35:06):
Let's go.
I would lessen the number oflike, content things we need to
check off in a given year sothat we can provide space to
allow kids to think about andtalk about the math that they're
learning.
So many teachers are asked rightnow to teach one standard, one
day and it got to move on.
I don't think people learn likethat, I don't think anyone
(35:29):
learns math like that.
And so if we can, we can lessenthat checklist of like all the
things you have to do for athird grader and third graders
can just engage with math, andtalk about math and think about
math, I think we're gonna havemore incredible problem solvers
coming out of our classrooms.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:47):
Great, that was not that controversial.
So,
Zak Champagne (35:50):
Well, I, I,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:50):
I wish you said something a little juicier,
to be honest.
Zak Champagne (35:53):
Dang it.
All right.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:54):
You still have a chance.
There's one more question.
What do you say to someone who'slike, cool story, but I'm just
not a math person?
Zak Champagne (36:01):
Um, you know, I, I push back a little bit on the,
like, look, I 100 percentbelieve that everyone's a math
person, but I think that likethe simplistic, like, Oh, are
you a person, and do you domath, like, you're a Like, I
don't, I don't think that's veryconvincing, actually, I don't
think people are like, Oh, yeah,you got me, um right.
Um, it's like, I think, Anddon't get me wrong.
(36:23):
I think that, that whole thingcomes from a space of like, good
intentions, right?
Like, of course, of course, wewant you to believe that about
yourself.
Um, so, I also don't think likechallenging them is like the
right thing either.
I don't think saying like, Oh,do you calculate how much you
spent at the grocery store?
I'm not sure that's it either.
I don't think that's,
Vanessa Vakharia (36:40):
We don't like that?
Zak Champagne (36:41):
Maybe it is, maybe it works for some people,
but like, I actually think likesaying like, wow, like your
experience like has, has madeyou believe that you, you don't
get to engage in math.
I get, validating at first islike really important.
Like you've,
Vanessa Vakharia (36:52):
Love that.
Yes.
Zak Champagne (36:53):
You've experienced trauma.
Like, if you really are a grownperson and you believe that
about yourself, like I hear you,I get that.
And like that has to be, that'svery real.
And so I think sometimes when wesay, but you are a math person,
we're unintentionallycommunicating to them that their
experiences aren't real.
That their experiences with mathweren't real.
So starting from a space ofvalidating and acknowledging
(37:14):
that, like what the trauma, theexperiences they had are real
and they matter.
But then also saying, like,there's a way to repair that.
Like you, you can come to knowthings about math that are
really exciting and reallyinteresting and really fun.
No matter where you are in yourjourney of life, whether you're
three or 33 like you, Vanessa,um, I mean, wherever you are in
that journey, like you canrepair that part of it.
(37:37):
All right,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:38):
My God, um, I love that.
I really love that.
That's very much my strategy.
Okay.
Fuck.
I'm really sad that thisconversation is ending, but it
has literally been a treat.
My question is, there anything,what?
Zak Champagne (37:50):
Yeah, I have a question for you.
We're gonna flip the scripthere.
So, you know, as again, as Isaid at the top, I'm a long time
listener, but first time caller,which means I've listened to a
lot of podcasts, but I've neverbeen on it.
Okay.
It's what it means.
David Kochberg (38:01):
I've heard that before, I get it.
Zak Champagne (38:03):
Yeah, there you go.
David's with me.
Okay.
So like radio shows back in theday, people would call in and
say, Hey, long time listener,first time caller.
And then they like ask aquestion on the radio.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:12):
Ooooh.
What's a radio?
Zak Champagne (38:15):
Exactly.
So as a long time listener andfirst time caller, um, I've
noticed that you, you mentionedto some of your guests that, um,
that you're their best friendlike Crystal Watson.
And I wonder why you haven'tmentioned that we're best
friends yet.
I'm just, I'm just putting itout there.
I don't know.
We just spent all this time.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:35):
Do I do that?
Zak Champagne (38:36):
I mean, you've said it a couple of times that
like, yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (38:38):
Oh my god.
Who have I said that to otherthan, wow, this makes me feel
very like inauthentic.
How many best friends do I have?
Zak Champagne (38:45):
You can have lots of best friends.
I just wonder why I'm not one ofthem.
That's all.
I
Vanessa Vakharia (38:48):
Um,
Zak Champagne (38:49):
It's fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:49):
I, I would say that after this hour we've spent
together, look, I'll tell youthis.
I spent longer on the pod withyou than anyone else.
I do not, I'm normally in myhard half an hour stop.
So like that says Yeah, Iwouldn't say we're at bestie
level yet, but like growthmindset.
Yet.
Zak Champagne (39:05):
We're gonna get there.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:06):
We're gonna, we're gonna get there.
Okay, great.
Is there anything I did not askyou about that you'd wanted to
say?
Zak Champagne (39:12):
No, I think we did it.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:13):
Can, can you plug yourself?
What are the things you wantpeople to know?
Where do we find you?
How do we stalk you, how do wefind out how old you are?
Zak Champagne (39:20):
Perfect.
I'm Zak Champagne.
I'm 47 years old, born August5th, 1976.
Um, my website is, um, Zakchamp,z a k c h a m p dot com.
Um, you can find my writingsand, and my thoughts there.
Um, I was active on Twitter fora long time, uh, the handle is
the same@zakchamp.
(39:40):
I, I, like I mentioned earlier,try to shelter myself from that
place right now because it'stoxic and gross.
But I do, I do check in everyonce in a while.
So that's a good spot.
Um, and then you can contact me.
If you go to the website, youcan get my email, stalk me
there, write me.
I would love to hear what you'rethinking about.
If there are things today that Isaid that challenged you or, or
maybe you're one of my hatersnow, please reach out.
(40:01):
I'd love to be able to tellVanessa I have a hater.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:04):
Thank you so much this was the fucking best.
I love this.
Zak Champagne (40:07):
You are the fucking best.
This is awesome.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:09):
So fun.
Zak Champagne (40:10):
I also kind of love David.
So, just so he knows.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:12):
You do?
Zak Champagne (40:13):
Yeah, he's great.
David Kochberg (40:14):
We're best friends, Zak.
I'll be your best friend.
Zak Champagne (40:16):
That's what I'm talking about.
You see that?
That's the level of energy Ineed you to bring and David's
bringing it for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:21):
We have to say bye.
Zak Champagne (40:23):
Okay.
Go ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:25):
Goodbye.
Zak Champagne (40:27):
Goodbye.
David Kochberg (40:29):
Great job.
Zak Champagne (40:30):
That's the most anticlimactic ending.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:34):
Okay, I get it guys.
I am sold.
I am all aboard the ZakChampagne train.
I mean, what a guy! There is somuch I loved about our convo,
but what stands out to me isjust how important it is to do
the real legwork required tobuild trust in our classrooms at
all costs.
I know it takes time, and I knowmost of us don't have any of
that, but without trust, it'sThere's no vulnerability.
(40:56):
And without vulnerability, howcan we truly expect our students
to notice and wonder with thereckless abandon needed to truly
discover mathematics the waythey deserve to?
The way Zak talked about theopportunity teachers have to
really make a student feel likethey belong to something just
reminded me that sometimes themost important thing you can do
to help a student is just listenand make them feel like someone
(41:17):
cares about them.
And that fills me with so muchhope and reminds me why we're
all in this work in the firstplace.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
(41:38):
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
(41:59):
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
If I get to spend 180 days in the classroom with a
kid, I would rather them leavemy classroom having a positive
outlook on who they are as amath learner than knowing a
bunch of shit about math.
I think it's more important fortheir well being and their
future that they walk outfeeling like they have a
connection and they seethemselves as a math learner
Vanessa Vakharia (00:22):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:45):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Okay, so if you listened to thelast season of Math Therapy, you
probably noticed that the mostname dropped person was a guy
named Zak Champagne.
Like guys, I'm not kidding.
Almost every one of our guestswas like, Zak Champagne this,
and Zak Champagne that, andlike, blah, blah, blah, blah, I
love Zak.
So, of course, I needed to findout for myself what the hype was
(01:07):
all about.
And let me tell you, the hype isreal.
Zak has been an elementaryclassroom teacher for over 20
years and has won a ton of stateand national awards for
excellence in teaching,including the Presidential Award
for Excellence in Mathematicsand Science Teaching.
Like, guys, he met a real lifepresident.
Zak really gets the profoundimpact of trust and respect in
(01:28):
the classroom and justunderstands that learning can't
happen without that foundation.
This episode was truly a wildride because I have to say that
Zak easily makes the top threeall time awkward starts to a
Math Therapy interview, but wequickly recovered and had a very
moving discussion about howgiving students meaning and a
sense of belonging can help usavoid losing students both
(01:50):
inside and outside of ourclassrooms.
Hello.
Zak Champagne.
Welcome to the pod.
Zak Champagne (01:58):
What's up?
Vanessa Vakharia (01:59):
Okay.
So the reason I'm being so.
What?
Zak Champagne (02:02):
No, I was just going to say, well, go ahead.
You go ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:04):
No, you go
Zak Champagne (02:04):
This is gonna a great start.
This is a real shady startalready.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:07):
You start!
Zak Champagne (02:08):
I just was going to say to everyone out there
that I'm a long time listener,but first time caller.
And if you get that reference,you're as old as me.
Um, so there you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:18):
What's that?
Zak Champagne (02:19):
You don't know that saying?
Maybe
Vanessa Vakharia (02:20):
Are you trying to figure out if I'm as old as
you?
Is that what
Zak Champagne (02:23):
No, I'm sure you are as old as me or I'm assuming
close.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:27):
I'm not going to tell you because I'm age
fluid and then that's just theway it is.
Zak Champagne (02:30):
Okay.
All right.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:31):
But when what year were you born?
Zak Champagne (02:33):
76.
I'm four, I'm 47.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:35):
You think I'm 47?
Zak Champagne (02:37):
Yeah, Did we just end the podcast?
Are we done?
Is it over?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:42):
Do you sincerely think I'm 47?
Zak Champagne (02:44):
No, I think you're, am I allowed to guess
without you getting mad?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna tell, I, I, but
like,
Zak Champagne (02:49):
I would say I would say early forties, late
thirties would be my guess.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:54):
But did you, I need to know honestly, did you
think I was 47 potentially?
Zak Champagne (02:59):
No, but I think if you were in your early
forties, you'd still get thereference of longtime listener,
first time caller.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:05):
Okay, we're gonna move on.
So I don't get that reference.
I do not get that reference,number one.
Zak Champagne (03:10):
Okay.
Fair.
bad start here.
All right.
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:13):
I'm kidding.
I love you.
Okay, here we go.
So the reason I really wantedyou on I was just saying that I
saw you speak in 2022, uh, atNCTM, it was my first NCTM, I've
never been in that world untilthen.
So it was like my first time,fresh eyes.
And I was like, everyone waslike Zak Champagne, Zak
Champagne.
And I was like, this guy hassuch a dope name.
Like I'm just to see what allthe hype is about, you know?
(03:36):
So I go to your talk.
And I remember your talk beinggreat, but that's actually not
what I remember the most.
What I remember the most was theaudience reaction.
I remember, like, Crystal, like,giving you a standing ovation.
I didn't even know who she was.
I was just like, what ishappening?
Like, everyone's, like,reacting, like, so, lovingly to
Zak Champagne.
I also don't think I can sayZak, everyone's always like, Zak
(03:57):
Champagne, Zak Champagne, and Iwas like, what's with this guy?
Like, you know, people love totalk shit about everyone, and
I've never heard anyone talkshit about you.
So like, what, why does everyonelike you so much?
Zak Champagne (04:08):
Oh my God.
What a crazy first question.
Like I gotta like build my, um,my ego up a little bit here and
which
Vanessa Vakharia (04:15):
No, the first question was, do you really
think I'm 47?
the second question, okay,
Zak Champagne (04:20):
This the second question.
Um, yeah, I do know about yourlove of astrology, and I'm a
Leo, I'm not afraid to, like,yeah, roll the eyes, right?
Like, I'm all about myself.
I'm totally, you know, selfcentered, I think I can save the
world and change the world.
So I'm not too mad to, like,talk about why people don't hate
me.
I guess maybe that's a better
Vanessa Vakharia (04:40):
I love this.
Also, Leo's are reallymisunderstood.
A lot of a Leo is about passionand bringing passion to what
they do.
Zak Champagne (04:47):
I would say that I think that is a big part of
who I am.
I love, I love this work.
I love being around young peopleand learning alongside them,
learning with and from them.
I think that's a space in thesort of math education sphere
that like isn't often talkedabout as much as it should be,
which is like, this work that weare gifted and able to do is so
(05:07):
special and so wonderful.
And the opportunity to get to bealongside young people that
much, it makes me so happy andit fills me with so much energy
and joy.
And then when I get to work withteachers and be in front of
teachers, I just try to sharethat.
I try to share their voices.
And I think, I think thatresonates with people.
Um, I think you you go to thesemath education conferences and
(05:29):
there's like two camps in mymind.
There's like the likeresearcher, I've been out of the
classroom for a very long timeand I have, but I have some
ideas that, that are important,I'm not knocking that that lane,
just not the lane I'm in.
And then there's sort of like,the people who are just really
good speakers, and I love goingto see them as well, they
inspire me, they give me ideas.
But there's this lane that's notfilled with like an actual
(05:51):
classroom teacher who, who cantalk about the practice and the
work that we do every day, butalso has a way, and again, I'm
filling my own bucket here toanswer your question, which is
like also has a way, I think, toconnect with people.
And I think part of that is theLeo in me and the sort of
passion in me.
But it also is like, I truly dojust love being around people,
and talking with them andlearning with them.
(06:11):
And so hopefully, you know, thatcomes across, and people, you
know, get that about me that I'mjust interested in like knowing
your world and like knowing whoyou are and learning with you.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
Do you have any haters that you know about?
Zak Champagne (06:26):
Oh, good question.
Um,
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Because like I've discovered I do recently.
Zak Champagne (06:32):
Really?
Interesting.
I don't think there are any likeoutward haters.
There are certainly people,particularly locally, um, where
I live who like probably havehad enough of me and I, I can
see that, right?
Like, um, you know, I was, I wasborn and raised in Jacksonville,
Florida, and now I'm going todigress for a minute, I'm going
(06:53):
to ask that none of yourlisteners judge me by my state,
um, it's a hot mess down therein Florida, but I was born and
raised there, and I've done alot of work to try and make that
place better.
But I've also, you know,Jacksonville's a really small,
kind of big town, and soeverybody kind of knows
everybody.
So I would imagine, particularlyin the education space, there
are people in in Jacksonvillewho are kind of like, all right,
that guy's had enough.
(07:13):
Let, let's, let's, let's stoplistening to him.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:16):
Okay, so this is really interesting.
You said people have had enoughof you, maybe, whatever.
And you also talked about howmuch you love, which I love how
you started this by talkingabout how much you love being
around young people like me.
So that's really nice that we'rehere together.
Um, but.
One thing I, you know, in justkind of like looking at the work
you've done and even just beingaround you, like, one thing that
(07:38):
I find so special about you isthat you really, in a non
cheesy, like, non performativeway, really do value student
voice.
And I, I hate saying thatbecause it's such a catchphrase,
but you just said it best, beinglike, I love being around young
people, learning with them,hearing what they have to say.
So.
It's weird to me because I'mlike, isn't that, like,
shouldn't that be such anobvious thing that teachers
(07:58):
love?
Like, that's what they do everyday.
But where do you think we'vesort of gone wrong there?
Like, why do you think you're sounique in that?
Like, do you think it really isthat, like, other teachers,
like, don't love being aroundyoung people?
Or that they don't know how tolisten to them?
Or, like, what is it?
Zak Champagne (08:13):
I think it's a couple of things.
You mentioned some of them.
One is I don't, I don't thinkthere are very many teachers who
like, don't like being aroundyoung people, right?
Like this work's way too hard tolike, not enjoy that.
I think what's happened is thissystem that we built has robbed
them of the opportunity to enjoybeing around young people and
listening to their ideas, Ithink the system has been set up
(08:36):
so that they are so focused onkids getting answers and kids
getting questions right on testsor whatever.
And so they're sort of forced,their hand is forced a little
bit to focus only on outcomes asopposed to like the human beings
that are in the room.
Um, so I think one, it's thatthe system is set up to do that.
And I do think, um, two, it'slike the time, which is also
(09:00):
part of the system.
But like, I think teachers arepressed for time.
Of course they are right.
It's not quick to sit and listento a seven year old talk about
their math ideas, right?
Like they have lots they want totell you about right?
And so that takes so much timeand so much energy.
And I will also say and this, Ihope this does not come across
as a knock to teachers because Idon't mean that in this way at
all.
But what I, it's been myexperience that listening to
(09:22):
kids and, trying to makeinstructional decisions in the
moment.
Um, it's really hard to do.
It's really complex andchallenging work and, and the
sort of thousands of microdecisions we make every day that
impact outcomes, it's reallycognitively demanding for
teachers.
Even, even those of us have beendoing it for a really long time.
And so sometimes, and again,this is why I don't mean this as
(09:44):
a knock.
This work is so hard.
Sometimes it's just easier, tolike focus on answers, let's get
some stuff done and move on,because it doesn't wear you down
and break you down.
Like that work, it's incrediblycomplex.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:56):
So, has anyone, you know, you're a big
proponent of being like, well,like I know it's time consuming,
but we really need to listen toyoung people in the classroom,
that's where our strength lies,and we're going to talk more
about that.
Has anyone ever come for youbeing like, no, we don't need to
do that.
I don't know what they wouldhave said.
And I'm really making this aboutmyself.
So I don't know who the real Leoin the room is.
I'm a Gemini, so whatever,
Zak Champagne (10:17):
Fair.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:18):
But I am so curious because I've been
finding that lately, like theentire math education world is
like people coming for eachother and being like, no, like
we shouldn't be listening tostudents talk, like we should be
telling like.
I, I actually haven't heardanyone say that specifically,
but being like, no, like directinstruction or no, like we
shouldn't be talking aboutmindfulness.
Has anyone ever been like, no,Zak, no, we should not be
(10:38):
listening to, to students.
That's not
Zak Champagne (10:41):
I mean, I would, I would imagine there are people
who believe some version ofthat.
Maybe the argument is somethinglike, you know, we, we really
want to prepare kids for theworld and, and to do that, they
have to like, grunt through allthis stuff.
And like, not, it's not, theirideas aren't, aren't what
matters here, it's like, yeah,getting to understand whatever
the thing we're trying to teachthem is.
(11:01):
So maybe there's some version oflike, you know, that.
I don't believe that, but Ithink there's some version of
that somewhere.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:08):
But you've never heard anyone say that to
you, or you've never been awarethat people are like, what Zak
is saying is bullshit.
Really?
Zak Champagne (11:15):
No, no one said that to me.
And I think, I mean, it is nice,but I do think I, I'm old
enough, we'll go back to age, myfriend, um, sorry to, triggering
here, but I'm old enough tolike, to like surround myself
with people that, that I reallylove and care for and do align
with those sort of valuesbecause they're that important
to me, um, and I also reallystay off Twitter X, whatever
Vanessa Vakharia (11:41):
So that's what, that's what it is.
You're, you're staying off ofsocial media.
I see.
Ok, that's a skill I don't have.
Zak Champagne (11:47):
And I don't have like, I have a personal
Instagram account.
I don't have like a Instagramaccount that's like, like for
the work I do.
So I don't, that's a happierplace, I think, at least for me.
But, um, yeah, staying away fromthat has been really good for my
health.
Now that you say that, there wasa time where I called out our
governor in Florida for some ofhis terrible policies in
(12:08):
education.
And boy, did the right wing comefor me on that.
Um, which was kind of actuallyjust funny to watch for a while.
Cause you know, they're all likebots, like they're not real
people,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:18):
But it still, like, stings, when you see
enough
Zak Champagne (12:21):
It does, Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
Okay.
Well, great, good for you fornot being on social media,
that's really great.
And I don't know how to do that.
Zak Champagne (12:29):
And sorry, Vanessa, let's also, let's also
acknowledge the elephant in theroom, which is a white straight
cis male does not get attackedquite nearly as much as, as
women or queer folks or peopleof color.
So, like, I have this sort of,like, intangible thing, which,
you know, gives me anincredible, incredible amount of
(12:49):
privilege,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:50):
Well, thank you for acknowledging that
because yes, I constantly getcomments being like, somebody
with sparkly eyeshadow shouldn'tbe talking about math education.
I'm like, babe, what's that Venndiagram, doesn't make sense.
Okay, you were like, talkingabout how one of the reasons you
think that it's so hard toincorporate student voice into
like the real life mathclassroom is just due to time.
(13:11):
What advice would you have for ateacher who listens to this and
is like, okay, well, I genuinelydo want to like hear what my
students have to say and somehowincorporate that into my
pedagogy.
Like, what do I do?
Do you have any, any tips forsomeone who feels strapped for
time?
Because, like this podcast isMath Therapy, and one of the
biggest things is how to makesure that everyone's math story
and math identity and previousmath traumas are valued in the
(13:32):
classroom in as little time aspossible.
And I feel there is a way tolike integrate it holistically
without being like, we'respending specific lessons on
learning who you are, but Iwonder what you have to say.
Zak Champagne (13:44):
There's a saying in the South, that, uh, if you
don't have time to do it right,you must have time to do it
twice.
And kind of kind of think thatapplies here, which is like,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:53):
What does that mean?
Zak Champagne (13:54):
To me, what it means is, I think listening to
kids and giving kids space tobuild their math identities is
the right thing to do.
And so while that takes moretime, if you don't do that, what
you're going to end up doing isdoing this other thing multiple
times and never moving forward.
Right?
Vanessa Vakharia (14:11):
Ooh, I love this.
Zak Champagne (14:13):
So you sort of take the time to do it right the
first time, so you don't have todo it again and again and again
as these kids get older.
So for me, it's all about likespending the time.
And I've always said this.
And this, doesn't bode well forthat metaphorical person we were
talking about a few minutes agothat makes up this argument,"why
would I listen to kids?" Um, butlike, I would rather, if I get
to spend 180 days in theclassroom with a kid, I would
(14:36):
rather them leave my classroomhaving a positive outlook on who
they are as a math learner thanknowing a bunch of shit about
math.
I think it's more important fortheir well being and their
future that they walk outfeeling like they have a
connection and they seethemselves as a math learner,
and I think that to me is moreimportant.
And so that's why I say thattime is well spent because
(14:57):
they're going to walk out withthat positive feeling about who
they are as a math learner.
And that's going to serve thembetter than like knowing about
ratios and proportions orwhatever it is, you know what I
mean?
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
Yeah, I love how you said that because I
always say that too, like thegoal of math therapy for me
isn't that every student getslike an A, it's that every
student leaves the classroomfeeling like anything is
possible, starting with theirability to just develop a teensy
weensy bit of a betterrelationship with math, like
that is like such abreakthrough.
But that being said, teachersand educators are still under so
(15:30):
much pressure and kids under areunder so much pressure to be
like, but I need these specificgrades and I need these specific
skills like they're so, and itis important, right?
Like the, both the things areimportant, I think we're both
aligned on what's the mostimportant.
Zak Champagne (15:41):
Right,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:42):
I always think like, the two often go hand in
hand, right?
Because you're talking aboutthat idea of doing things twice.
When we think about like chronicabsenteeism or turning in things
late or disengagement, all ofthat is often a result of like a
math trauma that is neveraddressed or a math identity
that is never healed.
So like, I think that kind ofgoes along to what you're saying
of like, okay, if you don't wantto do the identity work though,
(16:05):
you're going to have so muchmore trouble reaching those
students that they'll stillnever leave your classroom
understanding ratios.
Zak Champagne (16:11):
Right,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:12):
So it's like maybe take a shot, take a shot
at it, help them with theiridentity, maybe the ratios
follow, maybe they don't, buteither way they're leaving with
something of value, if not twothings.
Zak Champagne (16:23):
Yep.
So I, I tell this to parents alot when, when they ask about
this sort of like why we spendso much time on building
positive math identities.
And I think I first heard thisfrom Annette Johnson, she's a
California person, and I thinkin one of her ShadowCon talks,
she talked about this, I don'tknow where it all came from,
maybe it's from a bunch ofpeople, but this sort of idea
that there's a cycle oflearning, which is like, the
more you do something, thebetter you get at it.
(16:44):
Right.
As a musician, as a, as a,someone who plays sports, like
the practice part, um, is whatmakes you better at it, but
like, you don't actually want todo the practice, unless you're
good at it.
It's like, how do I get intothis circle, which is like, I
got to do more of it to getbetter at it, but I got to like
it to want to do it.
So it's like, then all of asudden I'm getting better at it.
So I like it more, which meansI'm going to do it more.
(17:05):
And I'm in that cycle.
And I think there's two entrypoints in there.
Either you're good at it and youget into it.
Or you want to do it, right,because you feel like you want
to try and do it.
And I think that's the easierway for most kids to get in.
If we're talking about math, Iwould argue that even for like
musicians and sports folks aswell, like feeling like you can
do it is the entry point becausethen you're going to want to do
(17:27):
it more and then you startgetting better at it and you
stay in that cycle.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:31):
We can't just have people entering from the
like, I know how, right?
Because then like, you're gonnamiss all these people.
So yeah.
So it's like, how do you getstudents to want to do it?
And I think this is where yourwork comes in.
How does valuing, first of all,what does it mean?
I don't, I hate throwing aroundthe term student voice.
Tell me what it means togenuinely value a student's
voice and tell me how that helpsa student enter in at the"want
(17:55):
to do it" part of that cycle.
Like give me tangible things youdo.
Zak Champagne (17:59):
Ok I will, but I'm gonna say one thing first,
which I think is in, in myclassroom, which I would I try
to qualify my classroom as asocial classroom, right?
I think about this as a placewhere kids are able to talk or
write about their math thinking.
And then the second part of thatthat's so important is that
everyone in the space deemsthose ideas as valuable or
(18:21):
holding some kind of value.
That is really hard to do,right?
So because, because kids arekids and they can be jerks
sometimes, let's be honest.
And I don't think they mean tobe, but they can say things
sometimes that can be harmful toother people.
And sometimes they don't mean tobe, they're just sort of like,
"that's not right", or somethinglike that, right?
Like they say things that can beharmful to each other.
But for me, it's about trying tobuild a space where kids feel
(18:45):
safe, and they feel loved, andthey feel valued, right?
Um, and so to do that thing, Ithink we have to do a couple of
things.
One, we have to be explicit.
We have to, like, say the quietpart out loud to kids, which is
your voice matters in myclassroom.
I want to hear from all of you.
I think you make us better whenwe get to learn with you.
Like we just you have to saythose things, right?
(19:08):
And also I think we have torethink what participation
actually looks like.
So when we say student voice,that thing you're talking about,
right?
It's not always talking.
You can participate in a mathlesson by listening, right?
In fact, that's how most kidsparticipate in math lessons.
So I try to help my kidsunderstand how to be a better
(19:29):
listener to each other.
What are the things that we doas listeners when our classmates
are talking?
Because actually, you're goingto listen a whole lot more in a
math class than you're going totalk.
I don't care who you are, howsocial the space you make.
Even for me, I have anincredibly low number of kids, I
have 18 kids.
But can you imagine?
There's never a day in a mathclass where all 18 kids have a
(19:50):
chance to talk to the wholeclass.
That doesn't happen.
You're just going to be activelylistening more than you're going
to be speaking.
So when I say student voice, I'mtalking about like all the ways
we can show up and participatein a math class, and it's not
just talking.
It's not just showing your work,right?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:06):
I think that's actually really important to,
um, unpack a lot of these terms,like growth mindset, student
voice, like humanizing math,it's like, what does that mean?
When you just say those wordswithout context, they mean
different things to differentpeople.
So we get frustrated because wethink we're doing the thing, but
we're doing something totallydifferent than the person who
like said it to us intended.
It's like the word love, youknow, when someone says it to
you, you're like, when you sayyou love me, does it mean the
same thing as when I say I loveyou though?
(20:28):
Like, and now we're operatingunder two things.
Okay.
Also I'd just like to say thatyou have made this very
accessible, I think.
Because like, this is less of alike, activity and more of a
classroom ethos, right?
Like,
Zak Champagne (20:41):
That's exactly right.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:42):
And it takes two minutes to be like your
opinion matters and this is whatit means to me, you know, and
saying those little things inthat language and reinforcing
behavior is like, thank you,it's really great to see you
actively listening or like, Ireally love the way you like
were patient and whatever, allthat stuff is just stuff you can
weave in.
Zak Champagne (20:59):
And then like, I think repairing harm, right?
Like when kids do say thingsthat are, that are unkind,
whether they're intentional orunintentional, like a lot of
times what will happen is if akid sharing an idea in my class
and they say what their answeris or ideas and a kid like
disagrees, they'll say like,that's not, that's not right.
And that's harmful, right?
That, that is like a shot tolike your, your ethos of like, I
thought I was doing okay.
(21:20):
Right.
Right.
And so thinking about, like weuse nonverbal signs a lot in our
classroom, right?
So, like, that's another way youcan show up, participate, right?
So, like, when Vanessa sharingher idea and my idea is similar,
I can use this agree sign,right?
That's a way for me tocommunicate with you, like, I
thought like you thought, right?
But I don't have to, like, stopyou or interrupt you, but I'm
communicating to you.
Like, hey, we're on the samepage, right?
(21:40):
And the same thing withdisagree.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
We're on a podcast.
Zak Champagne (21:43):
I know.
Sorry.
Agree is, so the sign language
Vanessa Vakharia (21:45):
No one can see you.
Zak Champagne (21:47):
It's mostly a, um, audio medium, but there's a
video component somewhere inhere, I don't know.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:52):
There is.
No, no, just explain what you'redoing because I think it's
important.
Zak Champagne (21:55):
The, the sign language for agree is sort of
like, uh, I guess, like, the oldhang loose sign, but you sort of
point to your chest, then youpoint to the other person with
that.
So that's a way to communicateto each other.
Like, I agree with what you'resaying, or I thought like you're
thinking, without interruptingthem.
And then also we use both armssort of like in the shape of an
X.
Like if you disagree withsomeone, you can use this sign
as a way to say, like, Idisagree with what you're
(22:15):
saying, but I'm not outwardlyyelling that at you right now.
Right.
And that's a more subtle way tolike, just sort of communicate.
And then the other one that weuse a lot, and again, I think
these are ways that kids areparticipating and they are
communicating and that they'reusing their voice without the
actual voice, is if Vanessa issaying something in the class
and I want to add on to it, weuse the sort of like two fists
(22:36):
on top of each other back andforth, which is like this is
saying, like, I want to build onwhat Vanessa is saying, I want
to add something to that.
And those are all ways you canshow up and your voice can be
heard without actually speaking,I think.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:47):
I love that.
Okay.
I love this so much.
Can we talk about trust for asecond?
Zak Champagne (22:51):
Oh yeah, please.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:53):
Okay, so, we have all of these ideas and
these different, like, pedagogyideas and frameworks and this
and that, but often the piece ofthe conversation that's missing
is, like, for any of these toactually work effectively, we
need to have a classroom spacewhere there is trust built in.
Both ways.
Like, we have to trust ourstudents, our students have to
trust us.
But again, trust is one of thosewords that just gets thrown
around and we don't know, likewhat it actually means.
(23:15):
So what does it mean to you?
Zak Champagne (23:19):
The first thing that comes into my mind when you
say trust in the class, if we'retalking about a classroom space,
I think the thing, this is not,I don't think probably the most
common way people think abouttrust, but the way that I think
about it is like, do I trust mykids with the material?
Do I trust that, I trust themwith the content that I want
them to engage with?
Do I trust them to engage inappropriate ways, even when I'm
(23:42):
not there.
I believe that no matter where akid is on their learning path
that we should trust them withgrade level content.
Now, grade level content is a,that's another word that we all
think, it means different thingsto different people.
But for me, it means like, allright, this is something that a
fourth grader would typicallydo.
I should trust that you canengage with it no matter what
your history is, and I have tothink about how I can support
you in that.
(24:02):
The second part of that is thatI'm going to trust that you're
going to engage with the workand engage with each other in
appropriate ways.
And so one of the things that Ithink so much about, um, this
will get back to trust.
I'm gonna go on a little detour.
Hang with me, people.
Don't put this on double speed,listeners.
I promise it's gonna we're gonnaget back.
I love sitting next to youngpeople when they're talking
(24:25):
about their math thinking.
I love listening to kids talk toeach other.
I love listening to them talk tome.
It is hands down the best partabout my job.
But what I have to remind myselfof is that the second that I sit
down next to young people, Ihave now changed the dynamic of
that group, right?
My, my positional power that youhold as a teacher changes that
(24:47):
conversation.
So.
What we have to do as teachersis we have to make the
intentional decision.
Is it worth me going over thereand sitting down next to these
kids right now?
Do I need to know what they'resaying or do I need to trust
that they are actually talkingabout the content and they are
having a conversation thatmatters that can exist without
me being a part of it.
(25:08):
And that's why I think, likethat piece of trust is hard.
Because one, again, it's fun.
I love listening to people talk.
And two, usually what happens isif I go sit down next to a
couple of kids, I'm going to usethat information to drive our
whole group learning forward.
But sometimes, I think, and whatI'm challenging myself to do
more of is, sometimes I have totrust that that conversation can
(25:30):
live as it is.
And I don't have to like, changeit by sitting down.
I don't have to like, shareeverything that every kid says.
Like, it can exist.
And I have to trust that kidscan do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:40):
Okay, but how are we creating the space for
kids to trust you and to trustone another?
Zak Champagne (25:46):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:46):
How do you do that and what does that mean?
Because you're talking aboutthis incredible stuff of, of
students being able to like usethese hand signals to show
whether they agree or disagree,for kids to actually listen to
one another, but they can't dothat unless they trust you and
they trust one another.
Zak Champagne (26:01):
Time, right?
Like it takes time.
And I think it goes back to evenwhat I was saying earlier, which
is like, one, you have to beexplicit with kids.
I, I don't think we try to besubtle with kids.
We should say to them, I trustyou.
I believe you're gonna be ableto do this work.
I believe in you.
Right?
Like, I don't care if, if thosekids we're talking about are
high school seniors, I thinkwe'd say to them like, I trust
you to engage with this work.
And I, I also get to teach asection of eighth grade math as
(26:24):
well at my school, it's a smallschool, I have third and fourth
graders most of the day, and Iteach eighth grade as well.
And with those eighth graders,the thing I say to them on the
first day of school is, um, youremotional and physical well
being will always be moreimportant to me than the math.
And that means that if you cometo me and you say, I didn't do
my homework last night, I'mgoing to say, okay, cool, what's
going on?
Can I help?
How can I support you?
(26:44):
What do you need from me?
Right?
As opposed to like coming atthat with, with like a, Oh, you
have to have this punishment nowif you didn't do your homework
or whatever.
Right?
So like being clear with kidsthat like, I am here for you and
you can trust me is, it'sexplicit.
And it's also, it just takestime.
You got to prove it to them,right?
They have to, you have to showthem over time.
You know, we show up over time,right?
(27:07):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:07):
And this is just not unlike any
relationship, like romantic,friendship, whatever.
It's that, like, you know, trustisn't just built in the words
you say, but in proving thevalidity of those words with
your action.
So, like, you can't, you know,you can't say, I trust you and
then be like, but I also need tosit next to you every time you
say something to just make sure.
(27:27):
You know, like then a kid knowslike, no, you don't.
And I, and I love that.
And I also think it's reallyimportant to like, really point
out that like you, if you'relistening to this and you're
like, I'm going to do this, you,you might be the first adult in
a kid's life that shows themtrue and actual trust.
Zak Champagne (27:44):
And so remind yourself as a teacher that if
you are in fact the first adultin a child's life that's ever
said that to them, they're notgoing to trust you the first
time.
That it's going to take a longtime.
And so when you continue to faillike I do every single day, like
we do every single day, justforgive yourself, know that it's
okay, and that there might besome kids who you can do that
(28:06):
all year long for, and it maynever be until three or four
years later that they come backand say, Oh my gosh, you
trusting me, you telling me allthat, like, did make a
difference.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's not going to happenthe first, the first day of
school.
It's particularly not going tohappen for young people who've
never had an adult that they cantrust.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:23):
And I mean, this is where I just think about
math trauma and the fact that,like, you are in most cases
dealing with students who havesome sort of wound around math
and it's going to take time foryou to, like, actually help them
heal that to a point where theycan trust you.
Like, I went to a public schooland I failed grade 11 math
twice, and fast forward, myparents sent me to this
(28:44):
alternative school like a schoolfor misfits.
Teachers were called by theirfirst names, we were allowed to
chew gum in class, and we neverhad to raise our hand if we had
to go to the bathroom.
And it changed the entiredynamic because that, I felt
that I was like, Oh my God, theytrust us.
Like they trust that if I haveto go to the bathroom, I
shouldn't have to ask cause I'mgoing to pee my fucking pants
and I should just go, you know?
(29:05):
And even just the, like the, thedynamic of calling them by their
first names, like they'rementors.
Anyway.
So you can think there's so manyways to build trust is my point.
Those little actions reallyworked for us in that school.
So, um,
Zak Champagne (29:18):
Totally.
We go by our first names in myschool.
I'm Mr Zak all day long.
I love it.
I actually would love it if wecould drop the Mr.
I would love to just be Zak,because it's, you're right, it
changes the power dynamic in theroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:29):
And it does.
And it's not like, Oh my God,then they're not going to
respect us.
Like no, in many cases, therespect just becomes a little
more mutual, you know, and theyfeel that accountability for
being like, I don't want to, Idon't want to lose that trust.
Like I want to be able to likechew gum and go to the bathroom
when I need to.
And so, yeah, yeah, it's cool,those little things.
Okay, this is a podcast aboutmath trauma.
(29:50):
I know I keep saying that, butthere's a quote I read by you
somewhere who knows where, soyou said, let's listen to our
students no matter howostracized they feel, no matter
their relationship with math, nomatter their race or background.
It's our job to make each andevery student understand that
they are a part of somethingbigger and to let them know they
matter".
What do you mean when you saythat they are a part of
(30:10):
something bigger?
Zak Champagne (30:12):
Let me tell you the, um, the background on that
quote.
I wrote that, and I wrote alonger blog post about this, um,
right after the Marjory Stone,um, oh gosh, the name of the
school in Florida where the bigshooting was, um, Marjorie
Stoneman Douglas.
That's the name of the school.
So after that, it was thathorrific shooting, 20 plus
people killed, um, just aterrible thing.
(30:35):
And, you know, there's afterevery school shooting, there's
always this crazy argument fromboth sides about is it about
guns or is it about people?
And, um, I tried to like, justlike stay clear of that whole
thing for a minute and just saylike, you know what?
Do you know what actuallymatters more than any of that?
Is that the kid who committedthat horrendous act felt so
(30:58):
ostracized, and felt so not apart of something, that they
felt like they had to do that?
And so for me, what that's allabout is like, as a math
teacher, as a teacher of youngpeople, like, let's make sure
kids feel like they're a part ofsomething.
I don't care what that somethingis because it gives them a
reason to keep going.
And so we have the opportunityas math teachers to make them
(31:20):
feel like they're part of theclassroom.
They're part of, um, they have,they're connected to me.
They're connected to each other.
They're connected to thecontent.
That connection, I think, is oneof the ways we help people feel
like they're not alone and feellike they are a part of
something that matters.
And so I think we have theopportunity to do that as
teachers is make sure that nomatter what that kid looks like,
(31:41):
sounds like, how different theyare from you, that they feel
connected to something in yourroom.
It's a tiny, tangible thing thatyou can do, I think, that will
make a big difference for a lotof kids if they feel like
they're connected to something.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:54):
It's interesting because, um, have
you, first of all, that's suchan incredible way of looking at
it, and I always feel like mathteachers have this opportunity
that no one else does because somany kids feel like they're not
a part of the math community,that you have this, like,
opportunity to, like, just fixthat right there and then.
Um, Have you heard of the BlueZones?
Zak Champagne (32:15):
No,
Vanessa Vakharia (32:16):
world's five blue zones?
Um, they're the five countriesin the world where people live
the longest, most fulfillinglives.
So people have been like, one ofthem is like Linda Loma,
California.
One of them's in Greece.
One of them's in Japan.
One of them's in Italy.
They've studied them and they'vefound these characteristics that
all these places have in common.
Like one of them is like accessto like farm to table food.
(32:36):
Another one is whatever.
But one of the things ispurpose.
It's, it's even when you're 92,when you've retired, whatever,
it's waking up and knowing thereis a purpose to you going
through the day.
So a lot of these places areplaces where, um, they live
intergenerationally, where likethey take care of one another,
like where they farm, likewhatever.
And it's like this idea of likewhen you are purposeless there
(33:00):
is this darkness that isinexplicable because truly why
the fuck are we on this planet?
What is the point of it all?
Right.
So, and kids, even though theymight not phrase it in that way,
especially think of the monotonyof going to school every day and
like slogging through, like whythe f why?
Zak Champagne (33:16):
Can you imagine how fucking hard it is for a
third grader to walk into theclassroom every day?
And here's what we ask them todo.
We ask them to sit down and trya problem they've never frickin
done before.
Can you imagine if every day forthe rest of your life you had to
go into like a honors calculusclass?
And in front of your friends,we're gonna ask you, Hey, solve
this thing you've never donebefore and if you feel really
good about it, tell everybodyhow you did it.
(33:36):
That's frickin terrifying, dude.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:38):
And why?
Zak Champagne (33:39):
so giving them purpose, like when you were
talking about purpose, I thinkthat's a better way to talk
about this, which is like,there's got to be something,
some reason I'm going to show upand try this today.
Right?
I have to have a reason to showup here today.
And again, whether thatconnection or that purpose is
like some some connection withme as the teacher, whether it's
a classmate, there are a groupof classmates that you have.
Or the content, I think we haveto acknowledge to that, like
(34:02):
some kids do really feelconnected to the content.
There's something that they likeabout math, right?
And that's a beautiful thing.
And so how do we help themremember that connection so that
they have the purpose that thatyou're talking about?
Why are they called blue zones?
I don't, I missed that part ofthe
Vanessa Vakharia (34:16):
Um, I, I actually don't know.
That's a
Zak Champagne (34:19):
I thought it was going to be a sad place, like
when you said blue zones, I was
Vanessa Vakharia (34:22):
Why are they called?
Okay, David, David, note fromproducer.
"The name Blue Zone derivedsimply during the original
survey by scientists who used ablue pen on a map to mark the
villages with long livedpopulations."
Zak Champagne (34:35):
Stop it right now.
Fantastic.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:39):
Okay, that is, David, wow, what a great
producer.
Um, We have to do the final twoquestions.
Zak Champagne (34:44):
Let's go.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:45):
Okay.
That is the sound of Zak rubbinghis hands together in
anticipation.
Question number one.
If there was one thing you couldchange about math education,
what would it be?
Zak Champagne (34:58):
Um, I would lessen the number of God.
This is gonna be controversialfor some people.
Stay with me here.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:04):
Let's get cancelled together.
Let's do it.
Zak Champagne (35:06):
Let's go.
I would lessen the number oflike, content things we need to
check off in a given year sothat we can provide space to
allow kids to think about andtalk about the math that they're
learning.
So many teachers are asked rightnow to teach one standard, one
day and it got to move on.
I don't think people learn likethat, I don't think anyone
(35:29):
learns math like that.
And so if we can, we can lessenthat checklist of like all the
things you have to do for athird grader and third graders
can just engage with math, andtalk about math and think about
math, I think we're gonna havemore incredible problem solvers
coming out of our classrooms.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:47):
Great, that was not that controversial.
So,
Zak Champagne (35:50):
Well, I, I,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:50):
I wish you said something a little juicier,
to be honest.
Zak Champagne (35:53):
Dang it.
All right.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:54):
You still have a chance.
There's one more question.
What do you say to someone who'slike, cool story, but I'm just
not a math person?
Zak Champagne (36:01):
Um, you know, I, I push back a little bit on the,
like, look, I 100 percentbelieve that everyone's a math
person, but I think that likethe simplistic, like, Oh, are
you a person, and do you domath, like, you're a Like, I
don't, I don't think that's veryconvincing, actually, I don't
think people are like, Oh, yeah,you got me, um right.
Um, it's like, I think, Anddon't get me wrong.
(36:23):
I think that, that whole thingcomes from a space of like, good
intentions, right?
Like, of course, of course, wewant you to believe that about
yourself.
Um, so, I also don't think likechallenging them is like the
right thing either.
I don't think saying like, Oh,do you calculate how much you
spent at the grocery store?
I'm not sure that's it either.
I don't think that's,
Vanessa Vakharia (36:40):
We don't like that?
Zak Champagne (36:41):
Maybe it is, maybe it works for some people,
but like, I actually think likesaying like, wow, like your
experience like has, has madeyou believe that you, you don't
get to engage in math.
I get, validating at first islike really important.
Like you've,
Vanessa Vakharia (36:52):
Love that.
Yes.
Zak Champagne (36:53):
You've experienced trauma.
Like, if you really are a grownperson and you believe that
about yourself, like I hear you,I get that.
And like that has to be, that'svery real.
And so I think sometimes when wesay, but you are a math person,
we're unintentionallycommunicating to them that their
experiences aren't real.
That their experiences with mathweren't real.
So starting from a space ofvalidating and acknowledging
(37:14):
that, like what the trauma, theexperiences they had are real
and they matter.
But then also saying, like,there's a way to repair that.
Like you, you can come to knowthings about math that are
really exciting and reallyinteresting and really fun.
No matter where you are in yourjourney of life, whether you're
three or 33 like you, Vanessa,um, I mean, wherever you are in
that journey, like you canrepair that part of it.
(37:37):
All right,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:38):
My God, um, I love that.
I really love that.
That's very much my strategy.
Okay.
Fuck.
I'm really sad that thisconversation is ending, but it
has literally been a treat.
My question is, there anything,what?
Zak Champagne (37:50):
Yeah, I have a question for you.
We're gonna flip the scripthere.
So, you know, as again, as Isaid at the top, I'm a long time
listener, but first time caller,which means I've listened to a
lot of podcasts, but I've neverbeen on it.
Okay.
It's what it means.
David Kochberg (38:01):
I've heard that before, I get it.
Zak Champagne (38:03):
Yeah, there you go.
David's with me.
Okay.
So like radio shows back in theday, people would call in and
say, Hey, long time listener,first time caller.
And then they like ask aquestion on the radio.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:12):
Ooooh.
What's a radio?
Zak Champagne (38:15):
Exactly.
So as a long time listener andfirst time caller, um, I've
noticed that you, you mentionedto some of your guests that, um,
that you're their best friendlike Crystal Watson.
And I wonder why you haven'tmentioned that we're best
friends yet.
I'm just, I'm just putting itout there.
I don't know.
We just spent all this time.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:35):
Do I do that?
Zak Champagne (38:36):
I mean, you've said it a couple of times that
like, yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (38:38):
Oh my god.
Who have I said that to otherthan, wow, this makes me feel
very like inauthentic.
How many best friends do I have?
Zak Champagne (38:45):
You can have lots of best friends.
I just wonder why I'm not one ofthem.
That's all.
I
Vanessa Vakharia (38:48):
Um,
Zak Champagne (38:49):
It's fine.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:49):
I, I would say that after this hour we've spent
together, look, I'll tell youthis.
I spent longer on the pod withyou than anyone else.
I do not, I'm normally in myhard half an hour stop.
So like that says Yeah, Iwouldn't say we're at bestie
level yet, but like growthmindset.
Yet.
Zak Champagne (39:05):
We're gonna get there.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:06):
We're gonna, we're gonna get there.
Okay, great.
Is there anything I did not askyou about that you'd wanted to
say?
Zak Champagne (39:12):
No, I think we did it.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:13):
Can, can you plug yourself?
What are the things you wantpeople to know?
Where do we find you?
How do we stalk you, how do wefind out how old you are?
Zak Champagne (39:20):
Perfect.
I'm Zak Champagne.
I'm 47 years old, born August5th, 1976.
Um, my website is, um, Zakchamp,z a k c h a m p dot com.
Um, you can find my writingsand, and my thoughts there.
Um, I was active on Twitter fora long time, uh, the handle is
the same@zakchamp.
(39:40):
I, I, like I mentioned earlier,try to shelter myself from that
place right now because it'stoxic and gross.
But I do, I do check in everyonce in a while.
So that's a good spot.
Um, and then you can contact me.
If you go to the website, youcan get my email, stalk me
there, write me.
I would love to hear what you'rethinking about.
If there are things today that Isaid that challenged you or, or
maybe you're one of my hatersnow, please reach out.
(40:01):
I'd love to be able to tellVanessa I have a hater.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:04):
Thank you so much this was the fucking best.
I love this.
Zak Champagne (40:07):
You are the fucking best.
This is awesome.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:09):
So fun.
Zak Champagne (40:10):
I also kind of love David.
So, just so he knows.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:12):
You do?
Zak Champagne (40:13):
Yeah, he's great.
David Kochberg (40:14):
We're best friends, Zak.
I'll be your best friend.
Zak Champagne (40:16):
That's what I'm talking about.
You see that?
That's the level of energy Ineed you to bring and David's
bringing it for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:21):
We have to say bye.
Zak Champagne (40:23):
Okay.
Go ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:25):
Goodbye.
Zak Champagne (40:27):
Goodbye.
David Kochberg (40:29):
Great job.
Zak Champagne (40:30):
That's the most anticlimactic ending.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:34):
Okay, I get it guys.
I am sold.
I am all aboard the ZakChampagne train.
I mean, what a guy! There is somuch I loved about our convo,
but what stands out to me isjust how important it is to do
the real legwork required tobuild trust in our classrooms at
all costs.
I know it takes time, and I knowmost of us don't have any of
that, but without trust, it'sThere's no vulnerability.
(40:56):
And without vulnerability, howcan we truly expect our students
to notice and wonder with thereckless abandon needed to truly
discover mathematics the waythey deserve to?
The way Zak talked about theopportunity teachers have to
really make a student feel likethey belong to something just
reminded me that sometimes themost important thing you can do
to help a student is just listenand make them feel like someone
(41:17):
cares about them.
And that fills me with so muchhope and reminds me why we're
all in this work in the firstplace.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
(41:38):
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
(41:59):
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
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