March 28, 2024 • 43 mins
On the Season 6 premiere of Math Therapy, Vanessa chats with Dr. Pamela Seda, an expert in all things education and inspiration! They dive deep into hot topics like how teachers can build trust in the classroom by modelling vulnerability, the benefits of cultivating community over competition, and a fascinating metaphor that illustrates what equity and accommodations truly mean in our schools.
About Pam (Website, Insta, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn)
Dr. Pamela Seda, Founder and CEO of Seda Educational Consulting, is the creator of the VANG Math Card Game and co-author of "Choosing to See: A Framework for Equity in the Math Classroom." Dr. Seda's career spans roles as a high school math teacher, instructional coach, college instructor, and district math supervisor. Dr. Seda is a prominent speaker on math equity, committed to transforming how marginalized students experience mathematics and advocates for mathematics instruction that develops all students as thinkers and problem-solvers.
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Pamela Seda (00:02):
As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in
situations where we can bewrong, but we ask our students
to do it every single day.
We force them to beuncomfortable.
We force them to risk.
Who are we, if we ask our kidsto do that every day, who are we
then to excuse ourselves fromthe discomfort of learning?
(00:23):
Especially when another humanbeing can be impacted.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:28):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:50):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
We are back, baby.
Okay, I probably say that everyseason, but hey, I love a good
catchphrase.
The point is, I'm back with awhole new season of Math
Therapy, and I'm gonna start bydoing something shocking.
I'm gonna shut up and dive rightinto our first guest without
further ado.
(01:11):
So when I say the word equity, Iwant to know what comes to your
mind because I'll be honest, Italk about it all the time but
sometimes I feel like I don'teven know what it truly means
and that's why I could not waitto talk to Dr.
Pamela Seda.
She is a total equity guru and Ijust found our chat so
refreshing.
Sometimes I find equity to besuch like a nebulous, confusing
(01:32):
topic, and I want to learn moreand action the big ideas we keep
hearing about, but I don't knowhow.
And that's where Pam comes in.
She shares her thoughts on thestate of education and also some
perspective on how we got herein the first place.
We also discussed practical waysin which we can turn those big
ideas into reality in our ownclassrooms.
And if you listen verycarefully, you can hear my
(01:53):
microphone picking up the soundof my brain literally exploding
as she explained the differencebetween equity and equality.
So lay down a tarp or put on ahelmet or do whatever you gotta
do to emotionally prepare tohave your mind blown by Pam
Seda.
Pam, welcome to the podcast.
Pamela Seda (02:10):
I am so happy to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:14):
Well, of course, so I'm, I'm actually a
huge fan because I read yourbook, Choosing to See, I
remember while I was reading it,I was like, I need to have her
on the podcast because I have somany questions and I felt it
really challenged like my viewof equity.
So like maybe just in shortbefore I even start asking you
questions, do you want todescribe the book to listeners,
(02:36):
like if someone was like, well,what's the book about?
Like, what would you say?
Pamela Seda (02:39):
So I would say the book is about how do we teach
math in ways so that it's not agatekeeping subject, but that
it's accessible to everyone.
And it's based on the frameworkthat came out of my
dissertation, ICUCARE.
Every chapter, um, is based onthe principle, but the book not
only has the research talksabout the principles, it starts
(03:01):
off with personal stories sopeople understand how this
really impacts students.
What does it mean, what happenswhen we don't do this and then
lots of specific strategies onhow do we get it done?
So I kind of say, it's my loveletter to teachers who want to
do right by children frommarginalized groups.
It's a place to start.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:22):
I love that.
That I actually felt like thatway too.
Like I, it was something I couldlisten to and understand.
And like, there was lots of likenice little tidbits and little
sections.
And I want, let's talk about theICUCARE framework.
Like what, what does that standfor?
Pamela Seda (03:36):
So ICUCARE is an acronym for, um, the framework
that actually was in themulticultural teacher education
literature, at first, it wasn'teven about math.
It was just about, you know,equity in general.
And then I saw someone hadapplied it to a ELA class and
used a lens for ELA instruction.
And so, because for me, it's allabout that math, I applied it to
(03:58):
a math context.
And so in doing that, it standsfor Include others as experts,
be Critically conscious,Understand your students well,
use Culturally relevantcurricula, Assess, activate,
build on prior knowledge,Release control, and Expect
more.
And I'm just gonna say, itwasn't that sexy in my
dissertation, but in workingwith teachers, they said, you
(04:22):
gotta give us a way to rememberit.
So, I went back to the drawingboard and out came ICUCARE.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:28):
Well, I love it.
Everyone needs an acronym.
Like I can see this on at-shirt.
Where's the merch?
Put that on a crop top for me.
Pamela Seda (04:34):
I need to get my daughter on it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:35):
Okay.
let's get her, let's get her onit.
Okay.
I actually wanna ask you aboutthe final two.
R was release control and E ishold high expectations.
for all students.
I think, um, it's reallyinteresting because we're in a
space in education where Ialmost feel like everything's
like low key about releasingcontrol.
Like you look at all theframeworks out there, like even
(04:57):
like thinking classrooms, it'slike, just let your kids like do
stuff on whiteboards or likeopen middle, just let them like
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like, okay, this is a really baddescription of all those things,
but you know what I mean?
Like, it's like, there's all ofthis idea of like, let kids
think and do stuff and don'ttell them what to do.
Do you get pushback from that?
Like, do you have teachers beinglike, well, how can I release?
Like, I feel like educationactually, especially in a math
(05:18):
class, is so much about control.
You said math as a gatekeeper,but it's also like math as like
a means of controlling.
Like, how do you see that R inICUCARE?
Like, how do you see it playingout now, and how would you like
to see it play out?
Pamela Seda (05:32):
Well, I haven't gotten a lot of pushback.
Matter fact, that's the one thatmost teachers say, I really
struggle with this one.
Like they say that chapterreally resonated with them.
It's like guilty as charged.
Um, they probably kind of knewthat that was an issue, but the
fact that I said it and said itout loud, gave them permission
(05:52):
to say, okay, I know I need towork on this.
So I haven't seen a lot ofpushback.
But one of the reasons I thoughtit was real important to put
release control and expect more,and I'm glad that you mentioned
both of those together isbecause there's this perception
that making math accessible isabout lowering the bar, it's
about watering things down.
And it's like,"Oh, these poorchildren, I feel sorry for them,
(06:15):
so we're going to lower the barbecause they can't do any
better".
And, it's not that way at all.
It's you can't really, reallyrelease control unless you
expect your kids to take it.
Right?
If you don't have highexpectations for your kids,
you're not going to releasecontrol.
You're going to try to do allthe work.
But the other side of that is.
(06:37):
You know, there's this phrasethat the kids used to always
say, you're doing too much.
And in this case, we are doingtoo much.
Partly because teachers arebeing expected to do too much.
Other parts are because we wantto rescue kids and we so much
want for them to learn.
We ended up taking over thelearning, not realizing we're
(06:57):
actually undermining thelearning process.
So it's, it's in that vein thatI wrote that chapter, being
guilty myself of needing torelease control.
So one of the things I talkabout in the expect more chapter
is I talk about how important itis to be a warm demander, like
those two things go together.
(07:17):
And kids kind of like, that'scognitive dissonance for most
children.
They think if you're nice tothem, then you're going to make
everything easy and let them getaway with stuff.
And if you demand from them,they're thinking you got to be
mean.
And I remember sharing withpeople as a high school teacher,
I was probably, I was prettygood with the demanding part.
(07:38):
But sometimes not so much thewarm part and how important it
is for both.
And that when you are both, whenyou are those warm demanders,
that really gets a lot of impactfor kids, especially for those
who traditionally don't trustthe system.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:55):
Huh.
Pamela Seda (07:56):
That being a warm demander really makes a
difference.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:59):
It's so interesting because you're like
the fourth interview now thatthe word trust has come up.
And like I just, I just happenedto be on this Brene Brown kick.
And by that I mean I've pickedup one book of hers and I'm
halfway through it.
But it's really made me rethinkthe word trust.
We say it so often, trust,trust, trust.
But like, what does thatactually mean in the classroom,
(08:21):
and why does that need to be inplace for any of this stuff to
work?
what does it mean to you whenyou say that?
Like, kids who don'ttraditionally trust the system,
like, they need to build trustin you as their guide.
Like, what, what does that mean?
Pamela Seda (08:35):
Oh, wow, that's, that's a lot there.
So I was thinking about theresearch on wise feedback.
They were saying a lot ofstudents who receive negative
feedback, sometimes they are,they don't trust that the person
giving them the feedback is notbased on stereotypes.
(08:55):
So if there's a stereotype thatas a black person, I'm not as
academically adept as some ofyour other people, then if a
teacher gives me negativefeedback, I may think this
feedback is coming out of yourbias.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:12):
Hmm.
Pamela Seda (09:14):
That's where we talk about that trust.
Sometimes it may not haveanything to do with you
personally, but justhistorically because the
stereotypes, and the nature ofstereotypes, we don't ever know
when they're really operating.
I remember just having thisconversation with someone
recently about how, you know,somebody can make a decision, it
(09:34):
could have a negative impact onme.
And I don't know whether it'sbecause I'm black or it's
because I'm a woman.
It could be, but I realizedbecause I never really can know
that I don't waste my, I can'twaste my mental energy trying to
figure that out.
Like I just have keep it moving,learn from it.
But there's still that always inthe back of my mind, why did
(09:55):
they make that decision?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:58):
I, I could not possibly relate to this more.
Like I, yeah, like to me, likeliterally actually everything is
sexism, like the end, like justeverything.
And so, so I feel this way too.
But then it's like you'regaslighting yourself, right?
Cause you're like, but am Ilike, wait, am I overreacting?
Is it not really because ofthat?
So, but, but now I need justadvice.
(10:18):
How do you not waste your mentalenergy on that?
Like, what do you do?
Pamela Seda (10:21):
I just learned, I, and I was just telling my
husband this, just yesterday,how some of the best ideas and
some of my best work has comeout of reaction to negative
criticism that I thought wasjust crazy.
Like me being mad with someonebecause they said something or
did something I didn't like.
And I've come up with some ofthe greatest ideas, that way.
I'm like they saying this?
(10:43):
This is some nonsense, I'm goingto show them.
And then I've come up withsomething brilliant.
So I'm like, I realized that,I've told him, I said, all
feedback really is a gift, evenif the gift is, I'm going to
know not to say it this way, ornot to share this information
with you because you're a haterand you can't, and you value
this information.
(11:03):
That's still a gift because mostpeople don't give you feedback
at all.
They think all these crazythings and you never know about
it and it's operating, butyou're just like, have no idea.
So even if they are off the walland they hate me and it's
because I'm a black, it doesn'tmatter.
All feedback is a gift.
And it can motivate me to bebetter
Vanessa Vakharia (11:23):
I love that.
But do you tell this tostudents?
Like, how could a studentprocess this?
Pamela Seda (11:29):
I'm just saying this for me personally, what
I've often told students, thisis what I've told students, and
it may be terrible, but this iswhat I used tell them, like
when, if they were, because Itaught high school, so if they
were in high school and theywould complain about whatever
teacher, this teacher, whateverthey say, not fair, they're
picking on them, whatever.
So then if I asked them, you Um,do you want to go to college?
Are your plans to go to college?
(11:50):
And most students do want to goto college.
Most of the students I haveworked with, they want to go to
college.
And I say, it's only going toget worse.
I'm just being honest with you.
I said, the teachers you havenow are better.
They're probably 10 times betterthan the ones you're going to
get.
So, let's figure it out.
Like, you're preparing, this isyour preparation ground.
Let's figure out how to advocatefor yourself, how to because
(12:12):
those are the things you'regonna have to do in college.
Because they're not gonna evengive you half the stuff that
you're getting here.
I don't know if that was goodadvice, but that was just, it
seemed to work.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:22):
Well, okay, we're all doing our best in any
given moment and I don't thinkthere's a right or wrong.
I also think like this isinteresting because like, you
know, my podcast is Math Therapyand it's all about healing math
trauma and helping kids buildbetter relationships with math.
And one of the things I'm, I'mwriting a book on it right now,
and one of the chapters, one ofthe steps, like basically
there's five steps of maththerapy, who cares, we're not
going to get into it.
But one of the steps is allabout finding ways to motivate
(12:45):
students who are like, well, Ireally don't care about math.
And I love what you said,because often what I encourage
teachers to do is focus on theskill they are building, in your
classroom that they can carryfar out of the classroom.
So I love what you're saying ina way of being like, okay, yeah,
let's take this like negativefeedback or negative experience
and turn it into a positive inthe sense that like you have an
(13:07):
opportunity right now to buildskills, to advocate for
yourselves, to reflect on your,like all these skills that are
going to carry you forth, farbeyond the math classroom, far
beyond like the ratios you'relearning or whatever.
So I really liked that.
And I wonder though, too, likehow, where is the line of like,
obviously, if you're a studentin a classroom and you're
feeling like you're beingdiscriminated against or like
(13:29):
the feedback you're getting is,due to a biases, that is like
going to form a math trauma tome, right?
Like you're going to be like, Ifeel this sense of not
belonging.
There's going to be a wound, butat the same time, there's this
opportunity to build thisstrength.
I guess I'm just like outerprocessing this with you.
I'm like, Oh, this is such atough one because on the one
hand, how do we like, letstudents know that what's
(13:52):
happening to them is wrong, ifit is wrong, while helping them
build that strength.
Like, how do you navigate thatmiddle ground?
Pamela Seda (13:59):
Yeah, I I think the advocating for yourself is
important, is something that'slearned.
A lot of adults haven't learnedthat.
So, you know, and I understandeven I've heard people say,
well, you know, it's hard toexpect a middle schooler to
advocate, you know, with ateacher that's much older, and I
get that, but it's not any lessintimidating when you're an
adult and have a supervisor whocontrols your paycheck.
(14:21):
it's a skill that has to belearned and, you know, it's just
like a muscle, you practice it.
And I think that's a valuablething to learn.
But the second thing I think isvery important, which is to me
why black people have survivedin the United States the way
they have, is they foundcommunity.
You have to find, you have tofind your people who can build
(14:42):
you up.
And I remember, this was notmath trauma, but I remember
being really traumatized onetime when a parent just
basically told me I didn't care.
Like I was a teacher, I called,the child was sleeping in class,
and I called the parent.
You know, kind of say, what canwe do, your child's sleeping in
class?
And they explained to me at thispoint in time, maybe, I don't
(15:03):
know how many weeks later thattheir child had a medical
condition and the medicine wasmaking them sleepy.
Like, okay, that would have beennice to know at the beginning,
but we still have to, right.
And so they just really attackedme.
Said I didn't care aboutteaching and that I was just
there for the paycheck.
Oh, right?
When, when you, a parent of oneof my students said that about
(15:27):
me, it was soul crushing.
But I remember going to theteacher next door, telling her
what happened, and of course,she was just there, she's like,
you, you, you just can't letthat, that's her pain.
Her, you can't, you can'tinternalize that.
And she just built me up and ifI hadn't had her, I, I don't
know what kind of negative talkwould have been going on in my
(15:48):
brain.
Um, and so it was just, I wasjust thankful to have that.
And I think that's just soimportant that when you're in
the struggle and there's abattle and we, we're battling
all kinds of things, whetherit's bias or just plain old
ignorance, uh, you can't do itby yourself.
You've got to have people to,while you're trying to advocate
(16:09):
for yourself, you got to havepeople who can build you back
up.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:13):
Well, and I wonder too just that idea of
community is like one of thereasons like, obviously, this is
a different way of looking atit.
Um, just like why we need totalk to our students about
feelings around math anxiety,math trauma, the fact that like,
you know, stereotyping can bereally traumatic that they're,
you know, that this is a commonfeeling that people feel like
they're not isolated so thatthey can feel more of a sense of
(16:35):
belonging, regardless of whatthey're going through in the
math classroom.
Like that to me is such a keycomponent of math therapy is of
being like, yeah, we're talkingabout it and we're creating a
community culture even withinour classroom where all of us
can have one another's backs.
Pamela Seda (16:48):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:49):
Well, and I, I want to talk a little more about
equity.
And what I want to start withalmost is I say this all the
time, that there's so manydifferent ways that math trauma
can occur.
It can be someone telling youyou suck at math.
It can be, you know, this andthat.
But one of the key things thatcan be is biases, stereotyping,
lack of representation.
So many of the things Iassociate with equity, but I
feel I'm being really closeminded about it, in a way, and
(17:12):
like, I'm not, I kind of want tohear how you define equity
because I feel like it actuallyencompasses way more than I
think and that can in turnaffect students.
Pamela Seda (17:22):
Yeah, I've heard somebody describing and we, we
pretty much say in the book it'ssimple as equity is simply every
student getting what they needto be successful.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:30):
Hmm.
Pamela Seda (17:30):
Everybody gets what they need.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:32):
Everybody gets what they need to be successful.
I love that.
Pamela Seda (17:36):
That's, that's the end goal.
It's just that simple.
The problem is, we makeassumptions about what kids
need.
Either we do as when a friend ofmine said, we make those
cardiac, uh, assessments, what Ifeel in my heart,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:53):
What?
What is
Pamela Seda (17:56):
One of my friends said it's a cardiac assessment,
it's how I feel, what I feel inmy heart about this kid that
we've been guilty of just, thisis what I feel for this kid.
And so we make this cardiacassessment, not based on any
evidence.
Or we make assumptions aboutkids based on stereotypes.
And as adults, we just alwaysassume that we know what kids
(18:18):
need rather than asking them.
Rather than collecting evidence.
And I'm not saying that wealways just listen to what kids
say, right?
Because sometimes kids needadults to kind of help them
accurately assess theirabilities, but you have to do
both.
You have to, you know, look atwhat students are doing.
Look at their work.
(18:39):
Listen to what they're saying inaddition to interviews,
whatever, in addition to thetest, like, look at the whole
picture to figure out what kidsneed.
And somebody said this, I wish Iknew who I could give credit to,
but I don't remember.
They said equality is everybodygets a pair of shoes.
(19:01):
Equity is everybody gets a pairof shoes that fits.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:05):
I'm thinking.
I'm thinking about this.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
Hold on.
Equality is everyone gets a pairof shoes.
Equity is everyone gets a pairof shoes that fits.
I guess I'm like, is equalityeveryone getting a pair of
shoes?
Yeah.
Okay.
Pamela Seda (19:22):
We think about equality, everybody getting the
same thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:25):
The same thing.
Okay, now it makes sense.
No, no, I needed you to unpackthat.
Now I get it.
Pamela Seda (19:29):
Yes, everybody gets the same thing.
So everybody gets a pair ofshoes.
You get a pair of shoes.
You get a pair of shoes.
Everybody gets a pair of shoes!
Vanessa Vakharia (19:36):
Oprah, yes, Okay.
Pamela Seda (19:38):
And so it looks like we have equity, but we
don't think about the end goal.
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Vanessa Vakharia (19:44):
Right.
Pamela Seda (19:45):
And if our goal is that everybody can run or walk
to their destination,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
Oh.
Pamela Seda (19:52):
Then you can't just get caught up in the fact that
you gave somebody shoes.
And, and so much of what we do,for me, even around equity feels
like a checkbox.
It's like, see, I gave everybodyshoes.
Look, look at me.
Look how great I was.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:07):
So how do you take this idea, which is an
incredibly beautiful idea, and Ithink like everyone in principle
would be like, well, yeah, Butlike, I can just imagine, and I
know this is what people say, ofjust being, and I'm sure you
hear this, of people being like,but like, there's not time for
that, like, how do we, sorry,I'm like, okay, as soon as you
say that there's not time forthat, I guess you're making the
choice to just leave some peoplewithout a pair of shoes.
(20:28):
Like, you're just like, well,and like, I guess it's already
always the same people thatdon't have the pair of shoes
that fit.
Oh my God.
Right.
Pamela Seda (20:36):
And you have to think about what is it we're
doing?
Why are we here?
Like, what's the point?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:41):
So how do you do it though?
Because it's like I, imagine youhave a classroom of 35 kids and
I would imagine that everysingle student needs something
different.
Pamela Seda (20:49):
Right.
And so this is what I'verealized.
We have to shift our mindsetabout us as teachers and the
work that we're supposed to bedoing.
And we are doing too much if wethink that individually we're
going to be able to meet theneeds of every individual kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:03):
Ah.
Pamela Seda (21:05):
If we see that I am the teacher and I'm responsible
for meeting the individual needsof 35 kids, there's not enough
for me to go around.
Traditionally, that's the wayschool's been set up.
It's competition for theteacher's attention.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Right.
Pamela Seda (21:20):
A competition for teacher's attention.
The smartest, the brightest, theloudest, that's who gets
teacher's attention.
Those who are quiet don't getthe teacher's attention and they
lose.
It's a competition.
That's how traditionalclassrooms have been set up.
But if we change it from acollection of individuals to a
community of learners and youcreate structures or routines to
(21:41):
where they're not onlyresponsible for their individual
learning, but they're alsoresponsible for supporting the
learning of their classmates,and you structure that way, then
you'll find a whole lot oflearning is going on because you
release some control to thekids.
It's a different type ofleadership.
It's accountability to eachother, which is way more
(22:01):
powerful than accountability toyou as a single teacher,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:05):
Okay.
So this is really interestingbecause I actually feel like
that really opens a door that inmy mind was closed of like
almost being like, I hear yousay that I want to do it, it
feels impossible, I'm giving up.
But you're right.
It's like, if you can rely onyour community for support, if
you can do the R, releasecontrol, like, that's what ends
up building this idea.
So I really, really love that.
(22:26):
And I wonder then like, how dowe turn, like, I sometimes feel
like equity is like just thisposter on the classroom wall,
and you're like, great, look,like, we have all these diverse
mathematicians, but like, weactually have to like actualize
that into classroom practice,right?
Pamela Seda (22:41):
Right.
So we're speaking a poster onthe wall, I just thought about a
poster I used to have on my wallcalled See Three Before Me.
Shifting a mindset.
Whereas in times past, kidsraise their hands, I'm running
all over the classroom trying toanswer individual questions,
right?
So just a little shift was youneed to see three people,
(23:02):
because I've already have theclass structured, so you know
who your three people are, whoyour community that I've already
structured that you ask first.
Not only you see your people,you might use a textbook as a
resource, or you might go like,there's three places you've
tried to get your questionanswered first.
(23:22):
And if everybody in your group,if all four of you have the same
question.
Then I come over and I answeredthe one question for four
people.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:32):
Huh.
I love this.
Pamela Seda (23:33):
So I'm making wiser use of my time.
Because I'm not answering anindividual's question, I'm
answering the question for fourpeople, that, because they've
discussed it before they came tome asking, they're going to have
much richer question to ask andbe able to make more sense of
the response I'm going to givethem because they have been
interacting with each otherabout the question before it
(23:57):
ever gets to me.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:58):
I love this.
It's like the snowball effect.
Probably by the time thequestion gets to you, it's like,
first of all, so much more likethey know what they're really
asking now, you know, likethey've like figured out what
they know and what they don't.
I love this.
Okay, so here was anotherquestion I had.
Tell me if this is a legitstrategy or not, okay?
I feel like one of thearguments, again, like, going
back to what you're saying,like, you cannot accommodate
(24:19):
every single person in the room.
Like, the ratio of 1 to 35 isunrealistic.
What if, you know how, like,it's like some of the
accommodations for kids withIEPs are like, someone needs
extra time on a test, someoneneeds a formula sheet, someone
needs access to being able towrite their essay on a computer
instead of by hand, like, justbasic things.
What if we just let all kidshave the same accommodations.
(24:43):
Is that a thing?
Pamela Seda (24:46):
So, I totally agree with you.
And this may get me in trouble,but this is the thing.
Why are we making all theseaccommodations for kids?
Most of that stuff that you saidis just so that kids can somehow
perform better on this test.
Are those accommodations reallyhelping them learn?
So, that's 1 thing that I reallywant us to think about because
(25:06):
that's also part of equity thatI look at is, yeah, it's how we
structure the classroom, butsometimes equity means, to help
kids be successful, sometimesthere are barriers in the way
that you might have to move outthe way.
Not that you lower the standard,the bar is up here, but for some
kids, there's some rocks andsome dams in the way of that
(25:30):
bar.
They're not there for anyparticular reason, they're just
what I call some of thosegatekeeping practices.
So for some kids, equity justmeans moving those things out
the way so they can get to thebar.
And I think when we're talkingabout accommodations, it should
be about moving stuff out theway that blocks their access to
(25:51):
the math content and not just sothat they can bubble in some
multiple choice test, so thatmakes our test scores look good
so that we can brag to everybodyin our community about what a
great school we are.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:04):
Oh my God.
Yes.
And I'm also like, I heard,don't quote me on this
statistic, but I believe inOntario and I know it's kind of
similar in the States, only like2 percent of the kids that need
an IEP ever get one because ofmoney, because of wait lists,
because of access, because offirst gen parents who don't know
how to navigate the system.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, I mean, look, couldn't we
(26:25):
be bold and say if so many kidsneed extra time on a test
because the boulder, because therock in the way of them
accessing math content is beingtimed, and like their anxiety
flares up
Pamela Seda (26:36):
I agree.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:37):
Yeah, why don't we just move that boulder
for everyone?
Pamela Seda (26:39):
Move it!
Vanessa Vakharia (26:39):
Like I don't understand!
Pamela Seda (26:41):
Let me tell you why,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:42):
Okay,
Pamela Seda (26:43):
Because if we go back, I don't know if we
mentioned it here, but, schoolswere never created to educate
all kids to high levels.
They're simply sortingmechanisms.
And going back to thatcompetition, schools have been
places, if you're sorting,there's only so many high
spaces, so many spots for peopleto be at the top, then it's all
(27:06):
about competition.
And if that's what school isabout, which traditionally it
has been, that's why you won'tgive them to everybody because
then, then the competition,that's giving people unfair
advantages in the competition.
That's why it doesn't change.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:21):
You're so right.
And you know what?
Kids know this.
They don't need to be told,like, I mean, you've said it in
a really explicit way with,like, historical evidence, but
it's like, kids know it's acompetition, like, you can say
to them, it's not a competition,like, don't compare yourselves
to others, but everything in thestructure and system of school
is set up for a competition, andlike, they know how to compete,
they've played video games,they've played a sport, they
(27:41):
know what rules are, and they'reseeing the same rules in their
classrooms, oh my god, this isblowing my mind, it's so hard
not to swear right now, but I'mnot doing it, but like, this is,
you're right.
That's so wild.
And it's like, how do we, do, Iguess here's a question.
Do we need schools to sort?
Do we need there to be like, dowe need it anymore?
Pamela Seda (28:04):
I think it's unethical to sort kids.
I just think it's, I think it'seducational malpractice.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:10):
Wow.
Oh my God.
There's the title of an episode.
Pamela Seda (28:13):
I don't that's our job to sort kids.
Our job should be helping kidslearn all that they need to
learn, teaching them to thinkand reason so they can figure
stuff out, because Lord knows wehave a lot of problems that need
to be figured out in this world.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:33):
Wow.
Amen.
I've never said amen in my life.
Delete I feel so weird that Ijust said that.
But like, I was
Pamela Seda (28:41):
You're not cussing and you're saying, Amen, what's
gotten into you?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:46):
I'm a new woman.
Okay.
Is there a way, I have a coupleof friends who are like white
male teachers who are like,sometimes I try to talk to them
about this stuff and theirreaction is like, Oh yeah, no,
like I don't even, yeah, I justdon't want to mess it up.
I don't want to get canceled.
I just try to stay away from itall.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, they think they're goingto do inclusion and equity
wrong.
Like, what?
Like, what, what, what, what,what are you saying there?
Pamela Seda (29:09):
So if you're trying to, if you're trying to follow a
program and if it's about beingcompliant, which a lot of work
that teachers are doing, that'swhat it's about, then I can
understand that.
But if it's about helping thosekids, then that's not an option.
So, I remember a time that astudent came to me and this was
in the middle of all thecontroversy where, you know,
(29:31):
don't say gay, like everythingis politicized.
And I remember, uh, a studentcame up to me and actually I was
subbing at the time, it wasfunny, I was working in a social
office, but I was substitutingat the time, but I had been a
regular so she knew me.
She came up to me and she says,well, my brother just came out,
he just told us he was gay.
So I'm thinking about how I canconnect with her.
(29:52):
Obviously she feels safe enoughto say that to me.
And then I'm thinking, but Lord,I'm a substitute.
I don't need to be.
uh, on the news somewhere.
And so I just simply said, well,how do you feel about it?
Did you know, or was it asurprise to you?
And she's like, we kind ofalready knew.
And that was kind of like theend of the discussion because my
(30:12):
issue was, it's not about me,it's not about my feelings.
It's about me connecting withthis kid.
And when, when that's your goal,it's connecting with real life
human beings, it's not puttingthem through some factory to
sort kids, when it's aboutconnecting to their humanity and
making them feel cared for and,and loved, then you, you can't
(30:35):
not do anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:38):
And I guess like, that's always, it's funny,
like I own a tutoring center.
Like that's kind of what I do.
And we have hundreds of kids andlots of tutors.
And I always have thesediscussions with them being
like, you know, often you arethe only adult in your student's
life who like, they really trustto say stuff to because that's
the whole vibe of my space.
Like I want them to feel like,you know, they're able to be
themselves while doing math.
(30:58):
They don't have to take offtheir hat of their identity to
put on their math hat, whatever,stuff that you're obviously
familiar with.
And I'm like, things are goingto come up, right, and obviously
we're all so nervous, right?
Like not, we thankfully don'tlive in America and we can say
the word gay in Canada, I'm sosorry about that.
That is just literally wild.
Um, but I'm going to getcanceled by some Americans now.
(31:19):
But, I always say what you cando if you're ever unsure, if you
ever feel like, well, I don'tknow enough about the subject,
is just ask them questions.
You never have to tell themanything, you never have to give
them advice, you never have toshare your opinion.
If it's something, right?
Like there's so much power inasking because often like these
kids just want to feel heard.
They're expressing themselvesand they need something to work
(31:41):
out their own feelings and youcan just like ask away and never
really say anything and allowthem that space.
Pamela Seda (31:47):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:48):
So yeah, I guess that's really good advice
for anyone listening who's like,but I don't know how or I feel
uncomfortable or I feel like I'mgoing to do it wrong.
It's like just connecting tostudents and asking why, like
just even the word why, like whydo you feel that way?
Like how does
Pamela Seda (32:01):
I also want to, um, turn this around just a little
Vanessa Vakharia (32:04):
Yeah, please.
Pamela Seda (32:06):
As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in
situations where we can bewrong, but we ask our students
to do it every single day Weforce them to be uncomfortable.
We force them to risk.
We force them to be insituations where they don't know
and they're not sure.
Who are we if we ask our kids todo that every day, who are we
(32:29):
then to, to excuse ourselvesfrom the discomfort of learning,
especially when another humanbeing can be impacted.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:38):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's so powerful.
So, and I guess like this is oneof those things to like, you
know, a call to action to thetask of being like, you might be
uncomfortable just like yourstudents, but that doesn't mean
like it's not the right thing todo or you need to shut down or
like, you know, you're learninga lot about yourself and what
makes you uncomfortable and why,too.
Which is like, I think really,really important.
And I mean, we get like, we aretalking about equity, which is
(32:59):
obviously the most important,but I'm even thinking about
teachers who are uncomfortablearound math, right?
Because often I do math therapywith teachers who are
uncomfortable around their own,own math ability.
And it's like, but you're askingyour students to like navigate
these new ideas and be wrong, solike you taking that first leap
again, Oh my God, I'm bringingup Brene Brown so much, I feel
like as soon as I read a book, Ithink I authored the book.
(33:20):
Okay, but anyways, she talksabout how one of the most
powerful things a leader can do,like research has shown, is when
a leader asks for help and showsvulnerability, their staff
responds to them better than ifthe leader always acts like they
know what to do.
Right.
So like, I think, yeah, likethat teacher being like, you
know what, I don't know how tosolve this problem.
(33:40):
Or, you know what, I'm havinganxiety up here.
Or like, you know what, like, Iactually really don't know how
to answer your question and Ifeel for you.
And like, all of these thingsmake you so much more powerful
and that connection you'retalking about in that community
in the classroom, like, Oh myGod, I feel all warm and fuzzy
now.
Well, can I ask you a questionin your opinion?
Like, things seem so dark rightnow in that, like, I almost feel
(34:03):
like in my mind, it was like aparabola.
I think, I'm hoping it's aparabola.
Cause I feel like we startedlike talking about equity up,
like, okay, we're both makingweird hand gestures guys.
But it's an inverted parabola,because, these talks with equity
and the classroom almost seemedlike really good and hopeful at
first.
And then things took like a realdark turn and all of a sudden it
(34:25):
was like weaponized and everyonelike hates the word equity.
And now it's like the oppositeof equity.
Like you can't like do anything.
And now we're like down in thedark.
Am I right?
Is this the right mathematicalshape?
Are we going to climb back up?
What's happening?
Are things okay out there?
Are they going to get better?
Are they getting worse beforethey get better?
Answer all my questions.
Pamela Seda (34:41):
So I haven't studied the history of education
long enough.
to answer that question.
I can only have my 30ish yearsthat I've been education, but
what I can do, because I havestudied is the history of
oppression for Black people inthe United States, and I've done
(35:02):
a lot of studying historically.
And I think about it as dark asit is now, and it's been very
disappointing for me as a personwho came of age started college
in the eighties, so hopeful thatthings were getting better to
see this happening.
But when I look at ithistorically, it is just, it's
very typical.
(35:23):
Every time there has been blacksuccess, there's always been
backlash until the next time.
And so I look at what my parentsdealt with, what my grandparents
dealt with, I look at what myancestors dealt with and the
disappointment they experiencedin trying to get equal access to
(35:45):
a variety of things.
And one of the reasons I so pushfor math because I know that
being math literate is really aprerequisite to so many decent
paying jobs that I feel likewhat I'm experiencing right now
pales kind of compared to whatmy ancestors dealt with.
(36:07):
Emotionally?
No, right.
Emotionally, there's always thatdisappointment when you work so
hard and you think thatsomething's going to happen.
But the backlash has been verypersistent and consistent, and
I'm not surprised.
The fact was that we were toosuccessful
Vanessa Vakharia (36:23):
Wow.
Pamela Seda (36:23):
And that's why the backlash was so swift and harsh
because it was so successful.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:30):
Do you feel like, I'm sorry, I've decided
you're a historian and knoweverything now, but like, do
you, do you feel like every timethere is backlash, like, is this
a like two steps forward, onestep back situation, or is this
a one step forward, two stepsback situation?
Pamela Seda (36:49):
No, I think it's two step forward one step back.
Even in my experience, eventhough there's all these laws
and there's all these talk tome, most of the people who were
committed to the work are stillcommitted to the work.
They're still doing the work.
I haven't had to change anythingI've had to say.
Like, people are still asking meto come, I've not changed my
message.
There are people who are stillinterested in the work.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:11):
That makes me happy.
That makes me really happybecause I guess, like, again,
I'm in Canada, which is not far,but it's like, if look, if you
look at the headlines, like,you're getting a very different
picture, you know, and it's onlyfrom talk, like, having these
conversations that I'm reallytrying to understand, like,
what's going on.
And it's not like we're perfectover here either, absolutely
(37:31):
not, but it's just not to thesame extreme and we don't have
the
Pamela Seda (37:34):
Yeah, I tell people all the time I say, you know, a
lot of Canadians have beeninterested in my work because
they haven't done thebackstepping like we have in the
U.
S.
But,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:46):
Well that's, yeah, I would love to talk about
how great Canada is, but we haveour own issues, and we're
definitely very racist andsexist in many ways.
But, but yes, like it'sobviously a bit different.
Pamela Seda (37:55):
Well, I'm, I'm thinking about policy, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (37:57):
Yeah, totally.
Pamela Seda (37:59):
Policy makes it harder.
But when you have teachers whoare committed to doing the right
work, and that's part of thereason why I wrote the book.
You don't need to get permissionfrom anybody to do those
strategies in your class.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:10):
Right.
Pamela Seda (38:10):
Everything that I say in that book are things that
are totally under the purvey ofthe teacher.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:15):
Yeah.
Pamela Seda (38:16):
You don't have to go out and change all these
systems even though they need tobe changed.
It's just understanding thesystem that you work within, how
to, to do things in your realmof control, what you can do in
your classroom, to make adifference for the kids who are
sitting in your classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:32):
Uh, so powerful.
So powerful because I think thatis it.
Sometimes it feels like you'relike, but I work within this
system, and it's like you do andthat sucks, like let's
acknowledge it sucks, and thenlet's figure out how to work
within that system to do thebest you possibly can to align
with your mission and yourvalues.
And I, I love that because thatputs power in the hands of the
teacher of like, we acknowledgethat it sucks and your hands are
(38:54):
tied in many, many ways, but insome they're not, and how can
you find that freedom and passit on to your students?
Like, where can you find it?
Wow.
This has been so, I could talkto you forever, ever and ever.
This has just been such alovely, hopeful talk.
Final two questions of thepodcast.
Number one, first question is,what is the one thing you would
(39:16):
like to see about the way mathis taught in schools?
One thing.
30 seconds.
Let's go.
Pamela Seda (39:22):
I would like to see the students doing the hard work
of learning.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:26):
I love that.
Wow.
Most succinct answer award goesto Pam on this one.
Um, okay.
And what would you say tosomeone who's like, Pam, I love
everything you said, so great,but like, I'm just not a math
person.
Pamela Seda (39:38):
Tell me what that means to not be a math person.
I'm not quite understanding whatthat means.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:45):
I love it!
Pamela Seda (39:47):
Are you saying you can't learn math?
Is that what you're saying?
You do have the ability to learnmath, so I would ask to try to
understand what they meant bythat they're not a math person.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:57):
Well, and you know what's such a full circle
moment here.
We were just talking about howlike when you don't know what to
say and you don't know how toconnect, just ask a question
instead of giving an answer.
And I love that.
I love that.
What do you mean?
Pamela Seda (40:10):
Sometimes we try to communicate to kids that they
have to like math to do it.
And I always share my ownexperience.
You know, I wrote a book, I'mgetting ready to write a second
one, I wrote a dissertation.
And I still hate writing.
The only thing I like to writeis my name on the back of a
cheque.
That I don't mind.
But, I don't like to write.
(40:31):
It's hard me.
But I do it because it needs tobe done and I decided that I was
not going to let writing keep mefrom going where I needed to go.
And I, that's the story I sharewith my students.
You don't have to like math.
You just have to determine thatmath is not going to be a
(40:53):
roadblock for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:53):
Oh my god I'm obsessed.
Pamela Seda (40:55):
And I'm gonna be the one to help you so that math
is not a roadblock for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:01):
I mean, yes.
Preach.
Amen.
All the things.
No f words.
Tell us where we can find you.
Tell the people where to findyou.
Pamela Seda (41:11):
Okay, so you can find me on my website
www.Pamseda.com, P-A-M-S-E-D-A.com.
That will take you toSEDAeducationalconsulting.com,
which is a mouthful.
Um, you can reach me on Twitter,which is@pamseda1, and Instagram
is the same thing.
So it's just Pam Seda.
That's how you find me.
(41:32):
P A M S E D A.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:33):
What a treat.
What a treat.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It was amazing.
I can't wait to meet in reallife one day.
Pamela Seda (41:40):
Thank you for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:41):
Bye.
I just love her.
I mean, such an inspiration andso much to think about.
Honestly, ever since ourinterview, I've been imagining
not only the history ofeducation as a parabola, but
like the history of the world.
It seems to me like matheducation is mimicking the
pattern of every industry,philosophy, policy, and way of
(42:02):
thinking right now.
Like we're stuck betweenprogress and the past.
And I truly believe that all ofus have the best intentions, but
we're so frustrated by howthings are that we just can't
see a way out.
And that's why I'm so gratefulfor and inspired by people like
Pam, who shed some light on howwe can just chart a new course
for our students and make ourclassrooms and hopefully our
world a better place for allpeople, like literally every
(42:26):
single one of us.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
(42:47):
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in
situations where we can bewrong, but we ask our students
to do it every single day.
We force them to beuncomfortable.
We force them to risk.
Who are we, if we ask our kidsto do that every day, who are we
then to excuse ourselves fromthe discomfort of learning?
(00:23):
Especially when another humanbeing can be impacted.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:28):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:50):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
We are back, baby.
Okay, I probably say that everyseason, but hey, I love a good
catchphrase.
The point is, I'm back with awhole new season of Math
Therapy, and I'm gonna start bydoing something shocking.
I'm gonna shut up and dive rightinto our first guest without
further ado.
(01:11):
So when I say the word equity, Iwant to know what comes to your
mind because I'll be honest, Italk about it all the time but
sometimes I feel like I don'teven know what it truly means
and that's why I could not waitto talk to Dr.
Pamela Seda.
She is a total equity guru and Ijust found our chat so
refreshing.
Sometimes I find equity to besuch like a nebulous, confusing
(01:32):
topic, and I want to learn moreand action the big ideas we keep
hearing about, but I don't knowhow.
And that's where Pam comes in.
She shares her thoughts on thestate of education and also some
perspective on how we got herein the first place.
We also discussed practical waysin which we can turn those big
ideas into reality in our ownclassrooms.
And if you listen verycarefully, you can hear my
(01:53):
microphone picking up the soundof my brain literally exploding
as she explained the differencebetween equity and equality.
So lay down a tarp or put on ahelmet or do whatever you gotta
do to emotionally prepare tohave your mind blown by Pam
Seda.
Pam, welcome to the podcast.
Pamela Seda (02:10):
I am so happy to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:14):
Well, of course, so I'm, I'm actually a
huge fan because I read yourbook, Choosing to See, I
remember while I was reading it,I was like, I need to have her
on the podcast because I have somany questions and I felt it
really challenged like my viewof equity.
So like maybe just in shortbefore I even start asking you
questions, do you want todescribe the book to listeners,
(02:36):
like if someone was like, well,what's the book about?
Like, what would you say?
Pamela Seda (02:39):
So I would say the book is about how do we teach
math in ways so that it's not agatekeeping subject, but that
it's accessible to everyone.
And it's based on the frameworkthat came out of my
dissertation, ICUCARE.
Every chapter, um, is based onthe principle, but the book not
only has the research talksabout the principles, it starts
(03:01):
off with personal stories sopeople understand how this
really impacts students.
What does it mean, what happenswhen we don't do this and then
lots of specific strategies onhow do we get it done?
So I kind of say, it's my loveletter to teachers who want to
do right by children frommarginalized groups.
It's a place to start.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:22):
I love that.
That I actually felt like thatway too.
Like I, it was something I couldlisten to and understand.
And like, there was lots of likenice little tidbits and little
sections.
And I want, let's talk about theICUCARE framework.
Like what, what does that standfor?
Pamela Seda (03:36):
So ICUCARE is an acronym for, um, the framework
that actually was in themulticultural teacher education
literature, at first, it wasn'teven about math.
It was just about, you know,equity in general.
And then I saw someone hadapplied it to a ELA class and
used a lens for ELA instruction.
And so, because for me, it's allabout that math, I applied it to
(03:58):
a math context.
And so in doing that, it standsfor Include others as experts,
be Critically conscious,Understand your students well,
use Culturally relevantcurricula, Assess, activate,
build on prior knowledge,Release control, and Expect
more.
And I'm just gonna say, itwasn't that sexy in my
dissertation, but in workingwith teachers, they said, you
(04:22):
gotta give us a way to rememberit.
So, I went back to the drawingboard and out came ICUCARE.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:28):
Well, I love it.
Everyone needs an acronym.
Like I can see this on at-shirt.
Where's the merch?
Put that on a crop top for me.
Pamela Seda (04:34):
I need to get my daughter on it.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:35):
Okay.
let's get her, let's get her onit.
Okay.
I actually wanna ask you aboutthe final two.
R was release control and E ishold high expectations.
for all students.
I think, um, it's reallyinteresting because we're in a
space in education where Ialmost feel like everything's
like low key about releasingcontrol.
Like you look at all theframeworks out there, like even
(04:57):
like thinking classrooms, it'slike, just let your kids like do
stuff on whiteboards or likeopen middle, just let them like
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like, okay, this is a really baddescription of all those things,
but you know what I mean?
Like, it's like, there's all ofthis idea of like, let kids
think and do stuff and don'ttell them what to do.
Do you get pushback from that?
Like, do you have teachers beinglike, well, how can I release?
Like, I feel like educationactually, especially in a math
(05:18):
class, is so much about control.
You said math as a gatekeeper,but it's also like math as like
a means of controlling.
Like, how do you see that R inICUCARE?
Like, how do you see it playingout now, and how would you like
to see it play out?
Pamela Seda (05:32):
Well, I haven't gotten a lot of pushback.
Matter fact, that's the one thatmost teachers say, I really
struggle with this one.
Like they say that chapterreally resonated with them.
It's like guilty as charged.
Um, they probably kind of knewthat that was an issue, but the
fact that I said it and said itout loud, gave them permission
(05:52):
to say, okay, I know I need towork on this.
So I haven't seen a lot ofpushback.
But one of the reasons I thoughtit was real important to put
release control and expect more,and I'm glad that you mentioned
both of those together isbecause there's this perception
that making math accessible isabout lowering the bar, it's
about watering things down.
And it's like,"Oh, these poorchildren, I feel sorry for them,
(06:15):
so we're going to lower the barbecause they can't do any
better".
And, it's not that way at all.
It's you can't really, reallyrelease control unless you
expect your kids to take it.
Right?
If you don't have highexpectations for your kids,
you're not going to releasecontrol.
You're going to try to do allthe work.
But the other side of that is.
(06:37):
You know, there's this phrasethat the kids used to always
say, you're doing too much.
And in this case, we are doingtoo much.
Partly because teachers arebeing expected to do too much.
Other parts are because we wantto rescue kids and we so much
want for them to learn.
We ended up taking over thelearning, not realizing we're
(06:57):
actually undermining thelearning process.
So it's, it's in that vein thatI wrote that chapter, being
guilty myself of needing torelease control.
So one of the things I talkabout in the expect more chapter
is I talk about how important itis to be a warm demander, like
those two things go together.
(07:17):
And kids kind of like, that'scognitive dissonance for most
children.
They think if you're nice tothem, then you're going to make
everything easy and let them getaway with stuff.
And if you demand from them,they're thinking you got to be
mean.
And I remember sharing withpeople as a high school teacher,
I was probably, I was prettygood with the demanding part.
(07:38):
But sometimes not so much thewarm part and how important it
is for both.
And that when you are both, whenyou are those warm demanders,
that really gets a lot of impactfor kids, especially for those
who traditionally don't trustthe system.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:55):
Huh.
Pamela Seda (07:56):
That being a warm demander really makes a
difference.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:59):
It's so interesting because you're like
the fourth interview now thatthe word trust has come up.
And like I just, I just happenedto be on this Brene Brown kick.
And by that I mean I've pickedup one book of hers and I'm
halfway through it.
But it's really made me rethinkthe word trust.
We say it so often, trust,trust, trust.
But like, what does thatactually mean in the classroom,
(08:21):
and why does that need to be inplace for any of this stuff to
work?
what does it mean to you whenyou say that?
Like, kids who don'ttraditionally trust the system,
like, they need to build trustin you as their guide.
Like, what, what does that mean?
Pamela Seda (08:35):
Oh, wow, that's, that's a lot there.
So I was thinking about theresearch on wise feedback.
They were saying a lot ofstudents who receive negative
feedback, sometimes they are,they don't trust that the person
giving them the feedback is notbased on stereotypes.
(08:55):
So if there's a stereotype thatas a black person, I'm not as
academically adept as some ofyour other people, then if a
teacher gives me negativefeedback, I may think this
feedback is coming out of yourbias.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:12):
Hmm.
Pamela Seda (09:14):
That's where we talk about that trust.
Sometimes it may not haveanything to do with you
personally, but justhistorically because the
stereotypes, and the nature ofstereotypes, we don't ever know
when they're really operating.
I remember just having thisconversation with someone
recently about how, you know,somebody can make a decision, it
(09:34):
could have a negative impact onme.
And I don't know whether it'sbecause I'm black or it's
because I'm a woman.
It could be, but I realizedbecause I never really can know
that I don't waste my, I can'twaste my mental energy trying to
figure that out.
Like I just have keep it moving,learn from it.
But there's still that always inthe back of my mind, why did
(09:55):
they make that decision?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:58):
I, I could not possibly relate to this more.
Like I, yeah, like to me, likeliterally actually everything is
sexism, like the end, like justeverything.
And so, so I feel this way too.
But then it's like you'regaslighting yourself, right?
Cause you're like, but am Ilike, wait, am I overreacting?
Is it not really because ofthat?
So, but, but now I need justadvice.
(10:18):
How do you not waste your mentalenergy on that?
Like, what do you do?
Pamela Seda (10:21):
I just learned, I, and I was just telling my
husband this, just yesterday,how some of the best ideas and
some of my best work has comeout of reaction to negative
criticism that I thought wasjust crazy.
Like me being mad with someonebecause they said something or
did something I didn't like.
And I've come up with some ofthe greatest ideas, that way.
I'm like they saying this?
(10:43):
This is some nonsense, I'm goingto show them.
And then I've come up withsomething brilliant.
So I'm like, I realized that,I've told him, I said, all
feedback really is a gift, evenif the gift is, I'm going to
know not to say it this way, ornot to share this information
with you because you're a haterand you can't, and you value
this information.
(11:03):
That's still a gift because mostpeople don't give you feedback
at all.
They think all these crazythings and you never know about
it and it's operating, butyou're just like, have no idea.
So even if they are off the walland they hate me and it's
because I'm a black, it doesn'tmatter.
All feedback is a gift.
And it can motivate me to bebetter
Vanessa Vakharia (11:23):
I love that.
But do you tell this tostudents?
Like, how could a studentprocess this?
Pamela Seda (11:29):
I'm just saying this for me personally, what
I've often told students, thisis what I've told students, and
it may be terrible, but this iswhat I used tell them, like
when, if they were, because Itaught high school, so if they
were in high school and theywould complain about whatever
teacher, this teacher, whateverthey say, not fair, they're
picking on them, whatever.
So then if I asked them, you Um,do you want to go to college?
Are your plans to go to college?
(11:50):
And most students do want to goto college.
Most of the students I haveworked with, they want to go to
college.
And I say, it's only going toget worse.
I'm just being honest with you.
I said, the teachers you havenow are better.
They're probably 10 times betterthan the ones you're going to
get.
So, let's figure it out.
Like, you're preparing, this isyour preparation ground.
Let's figure out how to advocatefor yourself, how to because
(12:12):
those are the things you'regonna have to do in college.
Because they're not gonna evengive you half the stuff that
you're getting here.
I don't know if that was goodadvice, but that was just, it
seemed to work.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:22):
Well, okay, we're all doing our best in any
given moment and I don't thinkthere's a right or wrong.
I also think like this isinteresting because like, you
know, my podcast is Math Therapyand it's all about healing math
trauma and helping kids buildbetter relationships with math.
And one of the things I'm, I'mwriting a book on it right now,
and one of the chapters, one ofthe steps, like basically
there's five steps of maththerapy, who cares, we're not
going to get into it.
But one of the steps is allabout finding ways to motivate
(12:45):
students who are like, well, Ireally don't care about math.
And I love what you said,because often what I encourage
teachers to do is focus on theskill they are building, in your
classroom that they can carryfar out of the classroom.
So I love what you're saying ina way of being like, okay, yeah,
let's take this like negativefeedback or negative experience
and turn it into a positive inthe sense that like you have an
(13:07):
opportunity right now to buildskills, to advocate for
yourselves, to reflect on your,like all these skills that are
going to carry you forth, farbeyond the math classroom, far
beyond like the ratios you'relearning or whatever.
So I really liked that.
And I wonder though, too, likehow, where is the line of like,
obviously, if you're a studentin a classroom and you're
feeling like you're beingdiscriminated against or like
(13:29):
the feedback you're getting is,due to a biases, that is like
going to form a math trauma tome, right?
Like you're going to be like, Ifeel this sense of not
belonging.
There's going to be a wound, butat the same time, there's this
opportunity to build thisstrength.
I guess I'm just like outerprocessing this with you.
I'm like, Oh, this is such atough one because on the one
hand, how do we like, letstudents know that what's
(13:52):
happening to them is wrong, ifit is wrong, while helping them
build that strength.
Like, how do you navigate thatmiddle ground?
Pamela Seda (13:59):
Yeah, I I think the advocating for yourself is
important, is something that'slearned.
A lot of adults haven't learnedthat.
So, you know, and I understandeven I've heard people say,
well, you know, it's hard toexpect a middle schooler to
advocate, you know, with ateacher that's much older, and I
get that, but it's not any lessintimidating when you're an
adult and have a supervisor whocontrols your paycheck.
(14:21):
it's a skill that has to belearned and, you know, it's just
like a muscle, you practice it.
And I think that's a valuablething to learn.
But the second thing I think isvery important, which is to me
why black people have survivedin the United States the way
they have, is they foundcommunity.
You have to find, you have tofind your people who can build
(14:42):
you up.
And I remember, this was notmath trauma, but I remember
being really traumatized onetime when a parent just
basically told me I didn't care.
Like I was a teacher, I called,the child was sleeping in class,
and I called the parent.
You know, kind of say, what canwe do, your child's sleeping in
class?
And they explained to me at thispoint in time, maybe, I don't
(15:03):
know how many weeks later thattheir child had a medical
condition and the medicine wasmaking them sleepy.
Like, okay, that would have beennice to know at the beginning,
but we still have to, right.
And so they just really attackedme.
Said I didn't care aboutteaching and that I was just
there for the paycheck.
Oh, right?
When, when you, a parent of oneof my students said that about
(15:27):
me, it was soul crushing.
But I remember going to theteacher next door, telling her
what happened, and of course,she was just there, she's like,
you, you, you just can't letthat, that's her pain.
Her, you can't, you can'tinternalize that.
And she just built me up and ifI hadn't had her, I, I don't
know what kind of negative talkwould have been going on in my
(15:48):
brain.
Um, and so it was just, I wasjust thankful to have that.
And I think that's just soimportant that when you're in
the struggle and there's abattle and we, we're battling
all kinds of things, whetherit's bias or just plain old
ignorance, uh, you can't do itby yourself.
You've got to have people to,while you're trying to advocate
(16:09):
for yourself, you got to havepeople who can build you back
up.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:13):
Well, and I wonder too just that idea of
community is like one of thereasons like, obviously, this is
a different way of looking atit.
Um, just like why we need totalk to our students about
feelings around math anxiety,math trauma, the fact that like,
you know, stereotyping can bereally traumatic that they're,
you know, that this is a commonfeeling that people feel like
they're not isolated so thatthey can feel more of a sense of
(16:35):
belonging, regardless of whatthey're going through in the
math classroom.
Like that to me is such a keycomponent of math therapy is of
being like, yeah, we're talkingabout it and we're creating a
community culture even withinour classroom where all of us
can have one another's backs.
Pamela Seda (16:48):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:49):
Well, and I, I want to talk a little more about
equity.
And what I want to start withalmost is I say this all the
time, that there's so manydifferent ways that math trauma
can occur.
It can be someone telling youyou suck at math.
It can be, you know, this andthat.
But one of the key things thatcan be is biases, stereotyping,
lack of representation.
So many of the things Iassociate with equity, but I
feel I'm being really closeminded about it, in a way, and
(17:12):
like, I'm not, I kind of want tohear how you define equity
because I feel like it actuallyencompasses way more than I
think and that can in turnaffect students.
Pamela Seda (17:22):
Yeah, I've heard somebody describing and we, we
pretty much say in the book it'ssimple as equity is simply every
student getting what they needto be successful.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:30):
Hmm.
Pamela Seda (17:30):
Everybody gets what they need.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:32):
Everybody gets what they need to be successful.
I love that.
Pamela Seda (17:36):
That's, that's the end goal.
It's just that simple.
The problem is, we makeassumptions about what kids
need.
Either we do as when a friend ofmine said, we make those
cardiac, uh, assessments, what Ifeel in my heart,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:53):
What?
What is
Pamela Seda (17:56):
One of my friends said it's a cardiac assessment,
it's how I feel, what I feel inmy heart about this kid that
we've been guilty of just, thisis what I feel for this kid.
And so we make this cardiacassessment, not based on any
evidence.
Or we make assumptions aboutkids based on stereotypes.
And as adults, we just alwaysassume that we know what kids
(18:18):
need rather than asking them.
Rather than collecting evidence.
And I'm not saying that wealways just listen to what kids
say, right?
Because sometimes kids needadults to kind of help them
accurately assess theirabilities, but you have to do
both.
You have to, you know, look atwhat students are doing.
Look at their work.
(18:39):
Listen to what they're saying inaddition to interviews,
whatever, in addition to thetest, like, look at the whole
picture to figure out what kidsneed.
And somebody said this, I wish Iknew who I could give credit to,
but I don't remember.
They said equality is everybodygets a pair of shoes.
(19:01):
Equity is everybody gets a pairof shoes that fits.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:05):
I'm thinking.
I'm thinking about this.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
Hold on.
Equality is everyone gets a pairof shoes.
Equity is everyone gets a pairof shoes that fits.
I guess I'm like, is equalityeveryone getting a pair of
shoes?
Yeah.
Okay.
Pamela Seda (19:22):
We think about equality, everybody getting the
same thing.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:25):
The same thing.
Okay, now it makes sense.
No, no, I needed you to unpackthat.
Now I get it.
Pamela Seda (19:29):
Yes, everybody gets the same thing.
So everybody gets a pair ofshoes.
You get a pair of shoes.
You get a pair of shoes.
Everybody gets a pair of shoes!
Vanessa Vakharia (19:36):
Oprah, yes, Okay.
Pamela Seda (19:38):
And so it looks like we have equity, but we
don't think about the end goal.
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Vanessa Vakharia (19:44):
Right.
Pamela Seda (19:45):
And if our goal is that everybody can run or walk
to their destination,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:52):
Oh.
Pamela Seda (19:52):
Then you can't just get caught up in the fact that
you gave somebody shoes.
And, and so much of what we do,for me, even around equity feels
like a checkbox.
It's like, see, I gave everybodyshoes.
Look, look at me.
Look how great I was.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:07):
So how do you take this idea, which is an
incredibly beautiful idea, and Ithink like everyone in principle
would be like, well, yeah, Butlike, I can just imagine, and I
know this is what people say, ofjust being, and I'm sure you
hear this, of people being like,but like, there's not time for
that, like, how do we, sorry,I'm like, okay, as soon as you
say that there's not time forthat, I guess you're making the
choice to just leave some peoplewithout a pair of shoes.
(20:28):
Like, you're just like, well,and like, I guess it's already
always the same people thatdon't have the pair of shoes
that fit.
Oh my God.
Right.
Pamela Seda (20:36):
And you have to think about what is it we're
doing?
Why are we here?
Like, what's the point?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:41):
So how do you do it though?
Because it's like I, imagine youhave a classroom of 35 kids and
I would imagine that everysingle student needs something
different.
Pamela Seda (20:49):
Right.
And so this is what I'verealized.
We have to shift our mindsetabout us as teachers and the
work that we're supposed to bedoing.
And we are doing too much if wethink that individually we're
going to be able to meet theneeds of every individual kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:03):
Ah.
Pamela Seda (21:05):
If we see that I am the teacher and I'm responsible
for meeting the individual needsof 35 kids, there's not enough
for me to go around.
Traditionally, that's the wayschool's been set up.
It's competition for theteacher's attention.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Right.
Pamela Seda (21:20):
A competition for teacher's attention.
The smartest, the brightest, theloudest, that's who gets
teacher's attention.
Those who are quiet don't getthe teacher's attention and they
lose.
It's a competition.
That's how traditionalclassrooms have been set up.
But if we change it from acollection of individuals to a
community of learners and youcreate structures or routines to
(21:41):
where they're not onlyresponsible for their individual
learning, but they're alsoresponsible for supporting the
learning of their classmates,and you structure that way, then
you'll find a whole lot oflearning is going on because you
release some control to thekids.
It's a different type ofleadership.
It's accountability to eachother, which is way more
(22:01):
powerful than accountability toyou as a single teacher,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:05):
Okay.
So this is really interestingbecause I actually feel like
that really opens a door that inmy mind was closed of like
almost being like, I hear yousay that I want to do it, it
feels impossible, I'm giving up.
But you're right.
It's like, if you can rely onyour community for support, if
you can do the R, releasecontrol, like, that's what ends
up building this idea.
So I really, really love that.
(22:26):
And I wonder then like, how dowe turn, like, I sometimes feel
like equity is like just thisposter on the classroom wall,
and you're like, great, look,like, we have all these diverse
mathematicians, but like, weactually have to like actualize
that into classroom practice,right?
Pamela Seda (22:41):
Right.
So we're speaking a poster onthe wall, I just thought about a
poster I used to have on my wallcalled See Three Before Me.
Shifting a mindset.
Whereas in times past, kidsraise their hands, I'm running
all over the classroom trying toanswer individual questions,
right?
So just a little shift was youneed to see three people,
(23:02):
because I've already have theclass structured, so you know
who your three people are, whoyour community that I've already
structured that you ask first.
Not only you see your people,you might use a textbook as a
resource, or you might go like,there's three places you've
tried to get your questionanswered first.
(23:22):
And if everybody in your group,if all four of you have the same
question.
Then I come over and I answeredthe one question for four
people.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:32):
Huh.
I love this.
Pamela Seda (23:33):
So I'm making wiser use of my time.
Because I'm not answering anindividual's question, I'm
answering the question for fourpeople, that, because they've
discussed it before they came tome asking, they're going to have
much richer question to ask andbe able to make more sense of
the response I'm going to givethem because they have been
interacting with each otherabout the question before it
(23:57):
ever gets to me.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:58):
I love this.
It's like the snowball effect.
Probably by the time thequestion gets to you, it's like,
first of all, so much more likethey know what they're really
asking now, you know, likethey've like figured out what
they know and what they don't.
I love this.
Okay, so here was anotherquestion I had.
Tell me if this is a legitstrategy or not, okay?
I feel like one of thearguments, again, like, going
back to what you're saying,like, you cannot accommodate
(24:19):
every single person in the room.
Like, the ratio of 1 to 35 isunrealistic.
What if, you know how, like,it's like some of the
accommodations for kids withIEPs are like, someone needs
extra time on a test, someoneneeds a formula sheet, someone
needs access to being able towrite their essay on a computer
instead of by hand, like, justbasic things.
What if we just let all kidshave the same accommodations.
(24:43):
Is that a thing?
Pamela Seda (24:46):
So, I totally agree with you.
And this may get me in trouble,but this is the thing.
Why are we making all theseaccommodations for kids?
Most of that stuff that you saidis just so that kids can somehow
perform better on this test.
Are those accommodations reallyhelping them learn?
So, that's 1 thing that I reallywant us to think about because
(25:06):
that's also part of equity thatI look at is, yeah, it's how we
structure the classroom, butsometimes equity means, to help
kids be successful, sometimesthere are barriers in the way
that you might have to move outthe way.
Not that you lower the standard,the bar is up here, but for some
kids, there's some rocks andsome dams in the way of that
(25:30):
bar.
They're not there for anyparticular reason, they're just
what I call some of thosegatekeeping practices.
So for some kids, equity justmeans moving those things out
the way so they can get to thebar.
And I think when we're talkingabout accommodations, it should
be about moving stuff out theway that blocks their access to
(25:51):
the math content and not just sothat they can bubble in some
multiple choice test, so thatmakes our test scores look good
so that we can brag to everybodyin our community about what a
great school we are.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:04):
Oh my God.
Yes.
And I'm also like, I heard,don't quote me on this
statistic, but I believe inOntario and I know it's kind of
similar in the States, only like2 percent of the kids that need
an IEP ever get one because ofmoney, because of wait lists,
because of access, because offirst gen parents who don't know
how to navigate the system.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, I mean, look, couldn't we
(26:25):
be bold and say if so many kidsneed extra time on a test
because the boulder, because therock in the way of them
accessing math content is beingtimed, and like their anxiety
flares up
Pamela Seda (26:36):
I agree.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:37):
Yeah, why don't we just move that boulder
for everyone?
Pamela Seda (26:39):
Move it!
Vanessa Vakharia (26:39):
Like I don't understand!
Pamela Seda (26:41):
Let me tell you why,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:42):
Okay,
Pamela Seda (26:43):
Because if we go back, I don't know if we
mentioned it here, but, schoolswere never created to educate
all kids to high levels.
They're simply sortingmechanisms.
And going back to thatcompetition, schools have been
places, if you're sorting,there's only so many high
spaces, so many spots for peopleto be at the top, then it's all
(27:06):
about competition.
And if that's what school isabout, which traditionally it
has been, that's why you won'tgive them to everybody because
then, then the competition,that's giving people unfair
advantages in the competition.
That's why it doesn't change.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:21):
You're so right.
And you know what?
Kids know this.
They don't need to be told,like, I mean, you've said it in
a really explicit way with,like, historical evidence, but
it's like, kids know it's acompetition, like, you can say
to them, it's not a competition,like, don't compare yourselves
to others, but everything in thestructure and system of school
is set up for a competition, andlike, they know how to compete,
they've played video games,they've played a sport, they
(27:41):
know what rules are, and they'reseeing the same rules in their
classrooms, oh my god, this isblowing my mind, it's so hard
not to swear right now, but I'mnot doing it, but like, this is,
you're right.
That's so wild.
And it's like, how do we, do, Iguess here's a question.
Do we need schools to sort?
Do we need there to be like, dowe need it anymore?
Pamela Seda (28:04):
I think it's unethical to sort kids.
I just think it's, I think it'seducational malpractice.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:10):
Wow.
Oh my God.
There's the title of an episode.
Pamela Seda (28:13):
I don't that's our job to sort kids.
Our job should be helping kidslearn all that they need to
learn, teaching them to thinkand reason so they can figure
stuff out, because Lord knows wehave a lot of problems that need
to be figured out in this world.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:33):
Wow.
Amen.
I've never said amen in my life.
Delete I feel so weird that Ijust said that.
But like, I was
Pamela Seda (28:41):
You're not cussing and you're saying, Amen, what's
gotten into you?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:46):
I'm a new woman.
Okay.
Is there a way, I have a coupleof friends who are like white
male teachers who are like,sometimes I try to talk to them
about this stuff and theirreaction is like, Oh yeah, no,
like I don't even, yeah, I justdon't want to mess it up.
I don't want to get canceled.
I just try to stay away from itall.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, they think they're goingto do inclusion and equity
wrong.
Like, what?
Like, what, what, what, what,what are you saying there?
Pamela Seda (29:09):
So if you're trying to, if you're trying to follow a
program and if it's about beingcompliant, which a lot of work
that teachers are doing, that'swhat it's about, then I can
understand that.
But if it's about helping thosekids, then that's not an option.
So, I remember a time that astudent came to me and this was
in the middle of all thecontroversy where, you know,
(29:31):
don't say gay, like everythingis politicized.
And I remember, uh, a studentcame up to me and actually I was
subbing at the time, it wasfunny, I was working in a social
office, but I was substitutingat the time, but I had been a
regular so she knew me.
She came up to me and she says,well, my brother just came out,
he just told us he was gay.
So I'm thinking about how I canconnect with her.
(29:52):
Obviously she feels safe enoughto say that to me.
And then I'm thinking, but Lord,I'm a substitute.
I don't need to be.
uh, on the news somewhere.
And so I just simply said, well,how do you feel about it?
Did you know, or was it asurprise to you?
And she's like, we kind ofalready knew.
And that was kind of like theend of the discussion because my
(30:12):
issue was, it's not about me,it's not about my feelings.
It's about me connecting withthis kid.
And when, when that's your goal,it's connecting with real life
human beings, it's not puttingthem through some factory to
sort kids, when it's aboutconnecting to their humanity and
making them feel cared for and,and loved, then you, you can't
(30:35):
not do anything.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:38):
And I guess like, that's always, it's funny,
like I own a tutoring center.
Like that's kind of what I do.
And we have hundreds of kids andlots of tutors.
And I always have thesediscussions with them being
like, you know, often you arethe only adult in your student's
life who like, they really trustto say stuff to because that's
the whole vibe of my space.
Like I want them to feel like,you know, they're able to be
themselves while doing math.
(30:58):
They don't have to take offtheir hat of their identity to
put on their math hat, whatever,stuff that you're obviously
familiar with.
And I'm like, things are goingto come up, right, and obviously
we're all so nervous, right?
Like not, we thankfully don'tlive in America and we can say
the word gay in Canada, I'm sosorry about that.
That is just literally wild.
Um, but I'm going to getcanceled by some Americans now.
(31:19):
But, I always say what you cando if you're ever unsure, if you
ever feel like, well, I don'tknow enough about the subject,
is just ask them questions.
You never have to tell themanything, you never have to give
them advice, you never have toshare your opinion.
If it's something, right?
Like there's so much power inasking because often like these
kids just want to feel heard.
They're expressing themselvesand they need something to work
(31:41):
out their own feelings and youcan just like ask away and never
really say anything and allowthem that space.
Pamela Seda (31:47):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:48):
So yeah, I guess that's really good advice
for anyone listening who's like,but I don't know how or I feel
uncomfortable or I feel like I'mgoing to do it wrong.
It's like just connecting tostudents and asking why, like
just even the word why, like whydo you feel that way?
Like how does
Pamela Seda (32:01):
I also want to, um, turn this around just a little
Vanessa Vakharia (32:04):
Yeah, please.
Pamela Seda (32:06):
As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in
situations where we can bewrong, but we ask our students
to do it every single day Weforce them to be uncomfortable.
We force them to risk.
We force them to be insituations where they don't know
and they're not sure.
Who are we if we ask our kids todo that every day, who are we
(32:29):
then to, to excuse ourselvesfrom the discomfort of learning,
especially when another humanbeing can be impacted.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:38):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's so powerful.
So, and I guess like this is oneof those things to like, you
know, a call to action to thetask of being like, you might be
uncomfortable just like yourstudents, but that doesn't mean
like it's not the right thing todo or you need to shut down or
like, you know, you're learninga lot about yourself and what
makes you uncomfortable and why,too.
Which is like, I think really,really important.
And I mean, we get like, we aretalking about equity, which is
(32:59):
obviously the most important,but I'm even thinking about
teachers who are uncomfortablearound math, right?
Because often I do math therapywith teachers who are
uncomfortable around their own,own math ability.
And it's like, but you're askingyour students to like navigate
these new ideas and be wrong, solike you taking that first leap
again, Oh my God, I'm bringingup Brene Brown so much, I feel
like as soon as I read a book, Ithink I authored the book.
(33:20):
Okay, but anyways, she talksabout how one of the most
powerful things a leader can do,like research has shown, is when
a leader asks for help and showsvulnerability, their staff
responds to them better than ifthe leader always acts like they
know what to do.
Right.
So like, I think, yeah, likethat teacher being like, you
know what, I don't know how tosolve this problem.
(33:40):
Or, you know what, I'm havinganxiety up here.
Or like, you know what, like, Iactually really don't know how
to answer your question and Ifeel for you.
And like, all of these thingsmake you so much more powerful
and that connection you'retalking about in that community
in the classroom, like, Oh myGod, I feel all warm and fuzzy
now.
Well, can I ask you a questionin your opinion?
Like, things seem so dark rightnow in that, like, I almost feel
(34:03):
like in my mind, it was like aparabola.
I think, I'm hoping it's aparabola.
Cause I feel like we startedlike talking about equity up,
like, okay, we're both makingweird hand gestures guys.
But it's an inverted parabola,because, these talks with equity
and the classroom almost seemedlike really good and hopeful at
first.
And then things took like a realdark turn and all of a sudden it
(34:25):
was like weaponized and everyonelike hates the word equity.
And now it's like the oppositeof equity.
Like you can't like do anything.
And now we're like down in thedark.
Am I right?
Is this the right mathematicalshape?
Are we going to climb back up?
What's happening?
Are things okay out there?
Are they going to get better?
Are they getting worse beforethey get better?
Answer all my questions.
Pamela Seda (34:41):
So I haven't studied the history of education
long enough.
to answer that question.
I can only have my 30ish yearsthat I've been education, but
what I can do, because I havestudied is the history of
oppression for Black people inthe United States, and I've done
(35:02):
a lot of studying historically.
And I think about it as dark asit is now, and it's been very
disappointing for me as a personwho came of age started college
in the eighties, so hopeful thatthings were getting better to
see this happening.
But when I look at ithistorically, it is just, it's
very typical.
(35:23):
Every time there has been blacksuccess, there's always been
backlash until the next time.
And so I look at what my parentsdealt with, what my grandparents
dealt with, I look at what myancestors dealt with and the
disappointment they experiencedin trying to get equal access to
(35:45):
a variety of things.
And one of the reasons I so pushfor math because I know that
being math literate is really aprerequisite to so many decent
paying jobs that I feel likewhat I'm experiencing right now
pales kind of compared to whatmy ancestors dealt with.
(36:07):
Emotionally?
No, right.
Emotionally, there's always thatdisappointment when you work so
hard and you think thatsomething's going to happen.
But the backlash has been verypersistent and consistent, and
I'm not surprised.
The fact was that we were toosuccessful
Vanessa Vakharia (36:23):
Wow.
Pamela Seda (36:23):
And that's why the backlash was so swift and harsh
because it was so successful.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:30):
Do you feel like, I'm sorry, I've decided
you're a historian and knoweverything now, but like, do
you, do you feel like every timethere is backlash, like, is this
a like two steps forward, onestep back situation, or is this
a one step forward, two stepsback situation?
Pamela Seda (36:49):
No, I think it's two step forward one step back.
Even in my experience, eventhough there's all these laws
and there's all these talk tome, most of the people who were
committed to the work are stillcommitted to the work.
They're still doing the work.
I haven't had to change anythingI've had to say.
Like, people are still asking meto come, I've not changed my
message.
There are people who are stillinterested in the work.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:11):
That makes me happy.
That makes me really happybecause I guess, like, again,
I'm in Canada, which is not far,but it's like, if look, if you
look at the headlines, like,you're getting a very different
picture, you know, and it's onlyfrom talk, like, having these
conversations that I'm reallytrying to understand, like,
what's going on.
And it's not like we're perfectover here either, absolutely
(37:31):
not, but it's just not to thesame extreme and we don't have
the
Pamela Seda (37:34):
Yeah, I tell people all the time I say, you know, a
lot of Canadians have beeninterested in my work because
they haven't done thebackstepping like we have in the
U.
S.
But,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:46):
Well that's, yeah, I would love to talk about
how great Canada is, but we haveour own issues, and we're
definitely very racist andsexist in many ways.
But, but yes, like it'sobviously a bit different.
Pamela Seda (37:55):
Well, I'm, I'm thinking about policy, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (37:57):
Yeah, totally.
Pamela Seda (37:59):
Policy makes it harder.
But when you have teachers whoare committed to doing the right
work, and that's part of thereason why I wrote the book.
You don't need to get permissionfrom anybody to do those
strategies in your class.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:10):
Right.
Pamela Seda (38:10):
Everything that I say in that book are things that
are totally under the purvey ofthe teacher.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:15):
Yeah.
Pamela Seda (38:16):
You don't have to go out and change all these
systems even though they need tobe changed.
It's just understanding thesystem that you work within, how
to, to do things in your realmof control, what you can do in
your classroom, to make adifference for the kids who are
sitting in your classroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:32):
Uh, so powerful.
So powerful because I think thatis it.
Sometimes it feels like you'relike, but I work within this
system, and it's like you do andthat sucks, like let's
acknowledge it sucks, and thenlet's figure out how to work
within that system to do thebest you possibly can to align
with your mission and yourvalues.
And I, I love that because thatputs power in the hands of the
teacher of like, we acknowledgethat it sucks and your hands are
(38:54):
tied in many, many ways, but insome they're not, and how can
you find that freedom and passit on to your students?
Like, where can you find it?
Wow.
This has been so, I could talkto you forever, ever and ever.
This has just been such alovely, hopeful talk.
Final two questions of thepodcast.
Number one, first question is,what is the one thing you would
(39:16):
like to see about the way mathis taught in schools?
One thing.
30 seconds.
Let's go.
Pamela Seda (39:22):
I would like to see the students doing the hard work
of learning.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:26):
I love that.
Wow.
Most succinct answer award goesto Pam on this one.
Um, okay.
And what would you say tosomeone who's like, Pam, I love
everything you said, so great,but like, I'm just not a math
person.
Pamela Seda (39:38):
Tell me what that means to not be a math person.
I'm not quite understanding whatthat means.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:45):
I love it!
Pamela Seda (39:47):
Are you saying you can't learn math?
Is that what you're saying?
You do have the ability to learnmath, so I would ask to try to
understand what they meant bythat they're not a math person.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:57):
Well, and you know what's such a full circle
moment here.
We were just talking about howlike when you don't know what to
say and you don't know how toconnect, just ask a question
instead of giving an answer.
And I love that.
I love that.
What do you mean?
Pamela Seda (40:10):
Sometimes we try to communicate to kids that they
have to like math to do it.
And I always share my ownexperience.
You know, I wrote a book, I'mgetting ready to write a second
one, I wrote a dissertation.
And I still hate writing.
The only thing I like to writeis my name on the back of a
cheque.
That I don't mind.
But, I don't like to write.
(40:31):
It's hard me.
But I do it because it needs tobe done and I decided that I was
not going to let writing keep mefrom going where I needed to go.
And I, that's the story I sharewith my students.
You don't have to like math.
You just have to determine thatmath is not going to be a
(40:53):
roadblock for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:53):
Oh my god I'm obsessed.
Pamela Seda (40:55):
And I'm gonna be the one to help you so that math
is not a roadblock for you.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:01):
I mean, yes.
Preach.
Amen.
All the things.
No f words.
Tell us where we can find you.
Tell the people where to findyou.
Pamela Seda (41:11):
Okay, so you can find me on my website
www.Pamseda.com, P-A-M-S-E-D-A.com.
That will take you toSEDAeducationalconsulting.com,
which is a mouthful.
Um, you can reach me on Twitter,which is@pamseda1, and Instagram
is the same thing.
So it's just Pam Seda.
That's how you find me.
(41:32):
P A M S E D A.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:33):
What a treat.
What a treat.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It was amazing.
I can't wait to meet in reallife one day.
Pamela Seda (41:40):
Thank you for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:41):
Bye.
I just love her.
I mean, such an inspiration andso much to think about.
Honestly, ever since ourinterview, I've been imagining
not only the history ofeducation as a parabola, but
like the history of the world.
It seems to me like matheducation is mimicking the
pattern of every industry,philosophy, policy, and way of
(42:02):
thinking right now.
Like we're stuck betweenprogress and the past.
And I truly believe that all ofus have the best intentions, but
we're so frustrated by howthings are that we just can't
see a way out.
And that's why I'm so gratefulfor and inspired by people like
Pam, who shed some light on howwe can just chart a new course
for our students and make ourclassrooms and hopefully our
world a better place for allpeople, like literally every
(42:26):
single one of us.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
(42:47):
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
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