May 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Today’s another one for the teachers, featuring Jon Orr & Kyle Pearce of the Make Math Moments empire - they have a podcast, a framework, workshops & courses & virtual summits galore, and who knows probably even a cooking show at this point?! They join Vanessa today to discuss the SHOCKING realization early in their career that not all students would be as excited about math as they were … which propelled them to adapt their teaching methods to fuel curiosity in kids so they don’t just get the right answers, but rather develop a true understanding of what they’re learning in class and beyond.
About Make Math Moments:
(Website, Podcast, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn)
Make Math Moments is on a mission to provide an opportunity for all mathematics educators around the world to access professional learning opportunities that will elevate their teaching practice and promote an equitable learning experience for all students.
Show notes:
- https://growyourmathprogram.com
- Jon Orr on Twitter
- Kyle Pearce on Twitter
- Vanessa’s episode on Make Math Moments podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyle Pearce (00:02):
We came in as these like, math geeks, both wanted to
be math teachers.
And it was sort of like, one daywe were in the classroom and
finally realized that otherpeople don't like math, and
that's a real shocker,especially when you've gone
through schooling and you havethis excitement, you want to
share it with students.
And very quickly we recognizethat, Oh my gosh, the majority
(00:25):
of the students that we've beenentrusted to actually educate
are not on the same train as us.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:32):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:55):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Guys, big news.
This is the first time I've hadtwo guests on the podcast at the
same time.
Editing was a nightmare, Davidwants to kill me, yet here we
are and it was totally worth it.
Today you're going to meet KylePearce and Jon Orr, hosts of the
podcast Make Math Moments.
I tried to start beef with them,but it didn't work because
(01:17):
they're like both actually sonice and Canadian.
So, and instead we ended uphaving the best chat about how
to authentically fuel curiosity,the roots of math trauma, and
why some people just hate math.
Most shocking of all, weactually did math on the
podcast, which I know goesagainst my little disclaimer in
the show intro, but whatever, itall worked out.
I think.
Anyways, let's dive in.
(01:40):
Okay, Kyle and Jon, welcome tothe podcast.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Kyle Pearce (01:45):
Hello!
Jon Orr (01:46):
We're excited!
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
This is the first time I've ever interviewed
two people.
And I actually, like, do peopleknow your names?
Or do they just know you as,like, the Make Math Moments
bros?
Jon Orr (01:54):
I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, I've never reallyasked anyone if we were the math
people or like, do you know whowe are?
Kyle Pearce (02:01):
But Jon, you gotta, the people who do know one or
both of our names always get itbackwards.
Jon Orr (02:07):
That's true.
That's true.
Kyle Pearce (02:08):
So at conferences, people call me Jon all the time,
and they call Jon Kyle,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:15):
all the time.
Which is fine.
Well, I didn't know who was whountil literally this moment.
Kyle Pearce (02:20):
I don't think
Jon Orr (02:20):
We're one person.
That's, that's, what everyonethinks.
You know, we're one person,talking to ourselves every day.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:26):
Okay, can you, I, I rarely do this, but I'm so
confused about what you twoactually do.
can you tell me what you do?
Kyle Pearce (02:34):
I wish we prepared for this, Jon, cause I'm not
sure either.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:37):
What is your role?
Like, why are you here?
I know that you have the MakeMath Moments podcast, which I've
been a guest on.
I know you have the Make MathMoments Teacher's Conference,
which I can't wait to talk aboutbecause it's one of my
favorites.
But like, what's your nine tofive?
What's your morning routine?
Like, what's your mission?
Jon Orr (02:52):
Well, up till the last, you know, year, uh, we have
been, practicing classroomteachers.
So, you know, our mission is tohelp change math instruction for
a million students, in terms oftrying to get more engagement,
but also create that, uh, youknow, positive and productive
disposition towards mathematicsthat most people, you know,
(03:13):
don't have, you know, knowingyou this podcast, Math Therapy,
you know that, like the peoplehave this like need to go
through math therapy.
We're trying to change it fromthe classroom level.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:23):
Kyle, it's your turn.
Kyle Pearce (03:24):
I think for both of us, early in our careers, we
came in as these like, mathgeeks, you know, like we both
got math degrees, uh,separately, different
universities, never knew eachother, both wanted to be math
teachers.
And it was sort of like, one daywe were in the classroom and
finally realized that like otherpeople don't like math, you
(03:47):
know, and that's a real shocker,especially when you've gone
through schooling and you havethis, you know, this excitement,
you want to share it withstudents.
And then you go in, and veryquickly we recognize that, Oh my
gosh, the majority of thestudents that we have to
interact with each day, that,that we've been entrusted to
actually educate are not on thesame train as us.
(04:10):
And we could do one of twothings.
We could just do it and say, weput it up on the board we did
what we had to do, we checkedoff the curriculum expectation
and moved on, or we could startgoing down the rabbit hole and
try to figure out like, how dowe actually do this better?
And, you know, for both of us,we took that path and I will
(04:31):
argue that without making thatchoice, I don't know how long I
would have lasted as a mathteacher, because that would have
been really tough to do for 30years straight if we were just
trying to do the same thing overand over again, expecting a
different result.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:47):
Were you surprised?
Like, were you surprised in theclassroom that like, people
weren't into math instructionthe way you were?
Like, were you like in therebeing like, Oh fuck yeah, I'm
going to spread this, I'm goingto like be teaching math and
you're factoring quadratics andyou're like, why does everyone
hate this?
Like, was,
Jon Orr (05:02):
I don't think so.
I don't, I don't remember.
Like, I remember that was thegig, the gig is that you're,
you're in a math class and youknow, like Kyle, like I think
when you said you'd like, youwere surprised that other kids
just didn't like math, like, Idon't think I was surprised the
kids and like my peers didn'tlike math.
Everyone says it, you know,everyone says like, Oh, you're a
math person or, you know, like,Like, you're, you're the math
(05:22):
geek, I'm not the math, like,it's, it's, it's just common,
common phrasing.
Kyle Pearce (05:25):
Maybe I was the only clueless one.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:27):
Kyle, were you surprised?
Kyle Pearce (05:29):
I I guess like I knew that there were some people
that didn't enjoy it but I don'tknow if maybe I just thought
that somehow they'd like itbetter from me.
Like maybe, it was like, peoplewould like me more, or I could
do this better.
And then you go to do it, andthen you realize that, wait a
second, I haven't broughtanything different to the table
(05:49):
than what was taught, you know,all these other years to these
students.
And I think that was the partthat hurt.
Jon Orr (05:56):
I think you go in right, like you go in going
like, I know kids hate math andI'm going to make it better.
I'm going to do it better andI'm going to like make sure, and
then it hurts when you're youknow you're trying different
strategies in there and it'slike all of a sudden that
strategy you thought was goingto be like, that's going to be
the one that turns that kid intoa math believer, and it doesn't,
and you're like, Oh man, what'sgoing on here?
(06:17):
And that kind of like takes youa step back going like, Oh, I
feel deflated now because I putso much effort and thinking and
work and emotion into thislesson and it, and it falls flat
sometimes.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:30):
I think that's probably so relatable to
teachers.
When you say you're like, ourmission is to like, help, you
know, a million students becomemath believers, as you put it,
what's your like thing?
Like, how do you do that?
Like, are you like, ooh, it'slike open middle problems, it's,
you know, low floor, highceiling, it's like some
whiteboard.
It's like, do you have a thing?
Jon Orr (06:49):
I think, those are all like structures.
Those are all resources.
Like those, like, we've got allof that that we grab.
And I think where we're like,Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna do the open middleproblem.
I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonnado a three act math problem.
Like, I'm gonna like put allthese things that I've been
searching on the internet for,for years.
And I've got this, database of,things that I think work, but
(07:10):
what we like, to do when we Kyleand I, this is actually how Kyle
and I kind of partnered uptogether is, is that we were
looking at what is going on inour lessons that makes this one
engaging, but that one fallflat?
Like what is going on here?
And then we ended up doing apresentation at O.
A.
M.
E.
You know, years and years andyears ago, 10 years ago together
on on that.
(07:30):
And it was, we realized thatthere are elements all of these
things have in common.
You know, if you're doing anopen middle problem, what is
going on in that that engagesthe students more than your
typical lesson?
Or like when you're doing athree act math problem, like,
why is that, or how do youstructure it so it's the same as
the open middle problem?
So what we realized, and this isnot like rocket science here,
but what we realized is that,you know, when you're in
(07:52):
teachers college, they're sayingyou got to have a hook.
And really what you're saying islike, I have to draw my students
curiosity in somewhere, and Ihave to create that curious
moment.
And when you have an open middleproblem like that, there is
curious moments at thebeginning.
You've, got this task to do, andthen all of a sudden this
middle, it makes it verycurious.
What happens if I change thisnumber?
What happened when I changedthis number?
Like you're creating that.
(08:12):
You give those students thatopportunity to kind of step into
a lesson and start askingquestions that they weren't
going to ask before when youjust like, Hey, I'm just going
to teach you how to solve twostep equations.
No one's wanting to know thatanswer.
But if you create that curiositymoment, you know, to begin your
lesson to go, Hey, I'm going tocreate an environment and an
experience where you have to,you have to kind of step in with
(08:34):
curiosity, then that allows usto go into in depth and kind of
fuel sensemaking.
Because for years, Kyle and Istarted with curiosity and go,
how do I create these curiousmoments?
But then it was like, as soon asI got them hooked, it's like, ha
ha, I'm going to switch thegears.
And now I'm just going to showyou how to solve two step
equations and not actually getthinking out of this.
(08:55):
So it was like, well, now weneed to fuel sensemaking once we
have that part.
And that's actually where ourlessons, you know, really came
together.
It was like, we got theircuriosity.
We were engaging them, but nowwe're really focused on the
mathematics, the conceptualunderstanding of mathematics.
Part of the engaging part of alesson is getting that
curiosity, but it's actuallymore engaging to get your
students thinking on a regularlevel instead of just giving
(09:15):
them everything.
So it's like, how do youstructure that part?
So when we started structuringour lessons that way, that's
where we started to see thechange.
And that's kind of like morphedinto how we try to make sure we
craft our lessons, craft theresources that we make, talk
about how to engage, helpteachers teach that way, because
most teachers, they're not surehow to do those things and are
(09:36):
scared to do those things, ordon't feel equipped to do those
things, or don't have thebackground knowledge to do those
things.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:43):
Kyle, so one thing, um, Jon said that I
loved, I love that you said youtalked about creating
mathematical experiences forstudents.
Like this idea of, because whenI think of an experience, I
don't think about a question, Idon't think about a lesson, I
actually think about a holisticview of like what their entire
experience is, like bothemotionally, like mentally,
physically in the classroom.
(10:03):
You, one of the cool thingsabout interviewing you guys,
like because I haven'tinterviewed like another
podcaster, is that you've hadlike everyone on your podcast,
so you've heard about everysingle like new framework, and
new idea and whatever.
What to you is like your mostfavorite like framework or
resource or like perspectivethat's come out of your
(10:24):
interviews with guests that youthink kind of fuels this idea of
creating a positive mathematicalexperience that's rife with
curiosity.
Like, do you have anything?
Kyle Pearce (10:32):
What I would say is, you know, kind of goes back
to what Jon was saying is like,what are those elements?
And I would argue that we ineducation and we, we are guilty
of it, like Jon and I werethere, we did this for many
years.
Where it's like you find aresource, or an idea, and then
you kind of like, you know, youhad mentioned open middle, uh,
Jon, you mentioned three actmath tasks, like Jon and I kind
(10:55):
of went down the three act mathtask rabbit hole for a really
long time.
And I'll be honest, was likegreat at the start, but then it
was like the rest of the lessonwas still flat.
It was a great curiositysparker, but then it was like,
we didn't have the tools to doit well.
And I'm going to argue that anyother structure or, or any other
resource can lead to the sameresult, if there isn't more
(11:19):
there for us to dig into.
So what I mean by that is let'ssay, uh, you know, an open
middle problem.
If you just sort of go, here'sthe problem, go do it.
And then the kids do it and thenthat's it.
And you move on.
It's going to lose its luster,And really what it comes down to
for us was like, how do wequestion students so that
they're doing more of thethinking, talk about Peter and,
(11:40):
you know, building, thinkingclassrooms and all of that work,
how do we do that?
And then how do we bring it backtogether, and tie it up with a
bow?
Like how do we consolidate it ina way that students are going to
walk out of this classroom andnot just think I solved a
problem about blank, butactually get a better
understanding of the mathematicsand the behaviors of the
(12:03):
mathematics.
And that's something that Ithink is really easy for us to
miss.
And here's the sad reality.
You can have a fully engagedgroup of students working on a
really amazing task, and theycould walk away and the vast
majority of the students may notactually understand what it was
that they learned or be able toapply it to a different scenario
(12:25):
that is similar, that followsthe same big idea.
And that to me is the part thatI think we struggle with the
most in mathematics education.
And that's what sort ofcaptivated Jon and I around this
work is like going down deeperand going, okay, how do we ask
students to get them to lean in?
How do we give them goodproblems, but then how do we be
(12:46):
intentional about it so it's notjust like entertainment, you
know, like we're not in therejust entertaining kids or giving
them something to keep thembusy, but rather that there's a
very intentional goal, that atthe beginning you were like, I
knew this was going to happen,there's always surprises too,
but you're like, I did it thisway so that you hit this part in
(13:07):
the journey and now, I'm goingto step in and I'm going to do
something very specific based onwhat you've done so far, and I'm
going to use all of yourthinking and I'm going to help
you to make sense of thebehaviors of mathematics.
That's like a Kathy Fosno line,she talks about the behaviors of
the mathematics.
(13:27):
And only when you understandthose behaviors, can you
actually start thinkingmathematically.
And only when you feel confidentto think mathematically, can you
truly feel a productivedisposition towards the
mathematics.
Cause that's when you start totrust the mathematics and you
trust that you have the tools inplace to help you work your way
(13:49):
out of any issue or anysituation that you might find
yourself in.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:54):
I mean, look, I'm going to be honest here.
Everything you said soundedamazing.
It sounded so good.
I'm listening to it, I'm like,yes, you're bringing trust into
it, which I can't wait to talkabout.
But honestly, at the end of itall, I still, I'm like, I don't
know what you mean and I bringthis up because I actually think
something you guys are really,really good at is, uh, creating
(14:17):
ways for teachers to take thesephilosophies and actualize them
in, in their classrooms.
And you're talking about that,but I need an example because
I'm listening to this and I'mlike, I still, like, I still
don't know what you mean.
So I started with an open middleproblem.
It was all good.
People were curious.
And then you keep being like butthat's not enough and we have to
like, get the, but what, what iseverything you just said mean?
(14:39):
Can I have like an actualexample?
Kyle Pearce (14:44):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:45):
Was that mean?
I just, like, it sounds likethese really good words but I
don't know how it like actuallyworks.
Jon Orr (14:50):
I'll, before Kyle gives you the example, because he's
got a good example, But, Kyleand I actually for the last
couple of years have, you know,worked with school districts on
a regular basis.
So that's also what we do duringthe day.
Is in help them shape thestructure of the math PD that
they're giving their teachers.
And what we're finding, youknow, what we're finding is that
is, and we used to, we used totravel, you know, across North
(15:11):
America and go in and do a, youknow, a one hour session or a
full day workshop or, thosetypes of things.
But we would leave and, youknow, there's remnants of what
you did, but there's no likereal lasting change.
And, and the work that we'vebeen doing, we've actually
uncovered, I, I think it's not,it's not like we uncovered it,
but I think it's kind of like,it just needs to be pointed out
that so many of the, theroutines, you know, those things
(15:34):
that we just said, an openmiddle problem, you know, Dan's
three act tasks or, or any ofthe other structures that we,
you know, we, we've mentioned
Vanessa Vakharia (15:42):
I like that you're calling them structures.
Jon Orr (15:44):
Yeah, because they are, they're like framework
structures, you know, routinesthat we're doing in our
classroom.
It's like every, every one ofthose.
So if you think of Peter, uh,Liljedahl's, you know, Building
Thinking Classrooms, his 14practices.
Like we're asking teachers, likeall of these ask teachers to
step away from the, the, youknow, the tested I've done this
for years.
I'm just going to lecture.
I'm going to give you thecontent.
(16:05):
And then I'm going to ask you topractice the content.
Why, why teachers have relied onthat so much, especially,
especially middle school andlower teachers is because
they're, they're not confidentwith the, the mathematics.
They don't, they're not sure whythings work or how to represent
them differently than thestandard algorithms that, that
(16:26):
we, we've been, you know, we'velearned.
So what we're asking teachers todo and why there's pushback on
different strategies is, is thatwe're, all of these school
districts have been askedteachers to go like, I want you
to teach like Peter's classroom.
I want you to do this, this openmiddle problem.
I want to do this, but you'reasking teachers to go like, wait
a minute.
I, I only have been doing thelecture because I'm not sure how
(16:47):
all this works.
And if a kid asked me stuff, orI'm not sure exactly how to
phrase it differently or, oreven model it differently
because I just have this scriptthat I've been following for
years.
And that's just what I wastaught when I was a kid.
And instead of going like, wewant you to stop that.
We want you to actually likegive kids the freedom to solve
problems, and you now have tonot only allow that in classroom
(17:10):
management in the classroom todo those things, but you also
have to be ready andknowledgeable enough to interact
with the way a student doessolve a problem that's different
than the way you know how tosolve the problem.
What happens if they solve itthis way?
How do I know that that's wrong?
Now it's scary for teachers todo that.
So what we're saying is like,when we've been partnering with
school districts, most areasking teachers to change
(17:33):
instruction to this, but notequipping them with the
background knowledge onunderstanding how to solve
problems differently, whatmodels or strategies that those
teachers can use that helpcreate fluency different than
just showing standardalgorithms, and then building
that conceptual understanding sokids can move towards procedural
fluency, which is like, I can dothis, you know, with, with my
(17:55):
eyes closed, but real fluency,like I can do this with my eyes
closed this way, but I couldpivot over here and model it and
show you this way.
Like that's real fluency, likebeing able to like switch in
between different, uh,representations of the
mathematics.
So that's like a long winded wayof kind of, I think, saying what
Kyle is saying, but Kyle, whydon't you give the example.
Kyle Pearce (18:15):
Well, here, here's, I'm going to share at least one
of the biggest challenges thatwe have in order to do this
well.
And it's really does come downto conceptual understanding.
So Jon talks about this fluencyand flexibility, which is, which
is a part of the conceptualunderstanding.
And the reality is, is that mostof us, and Jon, you said middle
(18:35):
and, and lower, I'm going toargue that like, all of us, like
K through 12, and beyond in manycases, actually don't
necessarily, like there
Vanessa Vakharia (18:45):
I, 100%.
I'm a high school math teacherand I have no, like seriously,
I, no one ever told me whyflipping and multiplying is what
you do with division.
Deborah Peart taught it to metwo months ago and I was like,
like, I, I didn't even know andI didn't need to know and I've
never even questioned it.
Kyle Pearce (19:01):
Yeah, totally.
And, and this is the thing andit's the kids who trust blindly.
I was that kid.
Jon that kid.
It sounds like maybe you werethat kid, right?
The kids who trust blindly, andare able to memorize steps and
procedures, traditionally havebeen what we call the math
people.
And people say, there's no suchthing as math people.
(19:22):
I'm like, heck yes, there is, inthat world where math is only
memorization.
Of course, there's math peoplebecause not everyone's going to
be able to memorize somethingblindly right?
That's the reality of thesituation.
I believe if we do it actuallyholistically, like you're
saying, but then also looking atall five proficiencies of
mathematics, we can all beamazing mathematicians.
(19:45):
But the difference is, is thatyou can't just turn that on.
It's not like all of ourteachers in the past have been
like, you know, we don't want topull out the whole conceptual
understanding thing because likeit might, be, you know, it might
like let everyone understand it,you know, like it's like, no, we
just don't know it.
The example that's so easy.
You talked about why flippingand, and multiplying for
(20:07):
dividing fractions, why we'venever known it.
Well, I'm going to go evenearlier and say, I never knew
that there was two types ofdivision.
Right?
Like dividing two whole numbers,you are always dividing with one
of two structures.
Use that word again, structuresof division and what you might
be like, what the heck are youtalking
Vanessa Vakharia (20:28):
I, my face is saying, what the heck are you
talking
Kyle Pearce (20:30):
Exactly, this
Jon Orr (20:31):
Wait, don't I just divide two numbers and boom,
there's an answer?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:35):
Yeah, what are you talking about?
Kyle Pearce (20:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:38):
Like 10 divided by five.
Kyle Pearce (20:40):
Yeah.
So now let's think about withcontext, right?
With numbers.
Here's the crazy part.
If you use naked problems like10 divided by five, what you'll
tend to do, tend, not ten to do,tend to is you're going to use
you're going to naturally do thedivision structure that fits the
numbers easiest, without evenknowing it, right?
(21:04):
So in certain cases, like you'llbe like, okay, let's do, let's,
let's pick an easy one.
Uh, let's go 10 divided by two.
How, like, you know, the answer,I know, you know, the answer,
but you had to actually likeexplain how you're going to
divide that, tell me how you'regoing to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Well, this is so interesting because I was
just teaching a grade 8 kid theother day and realized he didn't
know what division was becausewhen I said 10 divided by 2, he
did this.
Oh, sorry.
I'm, I'm, I'm making a splittingmotion with my hand and he was
like 5.
And then when I was like Okay,what's 20 divided by 2, if I
said 2 he could split it, if Isaid any other number he didn't
know what to do.
(21:40):
What I'm doing, when you say 10divided by, I don't know what
I'm doing, 10 divided by 2, Imean I just I know it's 5, but I
think I'm thinking like 2 groupsof 5, I think.
Kyle Pearce (21:49):
Interesting.
So two groups of five.
So now let's think about this.
When that student went likethis, that student actually
really understands one of thetwo types of division.
That's partitive division.
You put
Vanessa Vakharia (22:00):
What the fuck, I've never heard this.
Kyle Pearce (22:03):
Yeah, I know.
This is the crazy part.
Neither have I.
I mean, now I do, but I justsaid it, but I went and I got a
math degree and I neverrecognized the fact that
sometimes ten divided by twomeans make two groups and other
times it's like make groups oftwo and count how many groups
there are.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:22):
What?
Pause.
Pause.
When it mean that?
What?
Ten divided by two is makingfive groups of two.
Like, I know that works, butlike, why would you think of it
that way?
Kyle Pearce (22:34):
So now let's think about this.
Now let's layer in context.
I got 10 apples and I have twopeople, right?
What are we going to do ifthere's 10 apples and there's
two people, even very youngchildren know what this is.
They're like, you don't have tosay it's division.
You say there's 10 apples and Iwant you to give them fairly to
all the people.
(22:55):
And they go, Oh, one for you,one for you.
That's called
Vanessa Vakharia (22:58):
Uh, what's that called?
Jon Orr (23:00):
Fair sharing
Kyle Pearce (23:01):
Yeah.
Fair sharing.
It's like here, one for you, onefor you, one for you, one for,
Oh, each person ends up withfive each, but that, what that
is is that's one type.
Because the other option is youcould say, Hey, I got 10 apples
and I want everybody to get twoapples each.
Hmm.
(23:21):
Now it's different.
I can't fair share that, or atleast share in the same way.
I could, I could go like two foryou, two for you, and then I
just keep going until I run outof apples.
Before I was going, okay, onefor you, one for you, one for
you, till I ran out of apples.
Which might seem like it's thesame thing, it's actually very
different.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:41):
This is the most math we've ever done on
this podcast.
Like, this so crazy for me andour listeners.
So, okay, Kyle's been talkingfor this entire time, so now
it's Jon's turn to speak,because we can't tell your
voices apart.
How do you think, this is apodcast about math trauma.
and math therapy.
How do you think all of thisstuff, I mean, this is actually
really blowing my mind, but all,one thing that really stuck with
(24:03):
me is you said, because youknow, teachers are so strapped
for time.
And the biggest conversationright now is like, I love it,
but I don't have time.
I love it but I don't have time.
How does the way we currentlyteach math versus this idea of
true understanding, how do youthink that actually affects kids
when it comes to the developmentor triggering of math trauma?
Like, is this something you'vethought about?
Jon Orr (24:23):
This is, I think why so many students develop that math
trauma, is because they're notbeing brought through this
process of going like, I'm putin a position to want to know
the answer to this.
And then I also want to be putinto a position where it makes
sense to me.
And I think, I think that'swhere the trauma ends up coming
(24:45):
from.
We end up saying like, you justshould know it because the
teacher also doesn't know it.
They're not saying like, like,well, why do I flip and multiply
or why, you know, in thisparticular thing.
And the teacher's like, that'sjust the way you do it.
But then that creates like a lotof conflict in us to go like,
but I want to know the answer.
And then all of a sudden there'slike an animosity towards the
(25:06):
teacher, there's animositytowards mathematics itself.
Going like this, but there's nogood answer, now it doesn't make
sense to me, math doesn't makesense to me, math is not for me,
I hate mathematics.
And it's because, if we don'thave good answers to these
wonders, these questions, thisconnection towards why this
(25:26):
makes sense, like as long as youcan make it sense for a student,
this is why it's like, it madesense to you because you were
like, I can follow that pattern,right?
For you, it was probably like,cause that was true for me
becoming like, um, you know, amath teacher is like the teacher
might say, do it this way, and Iwould say, Hey, look, if I do it
that way every time, it works,that makes sense to me, because
(25:49):
I'm not really like seeking, Iwasn't back then, seeking like
the real understanding answer.
And it was only until I metstudents who were like, but why?
Like I need to understand thewhy.
And talk to adults who have thatlike animosity towards
mathematics also were like, Ialways wanted to know why, but
no one could explain it to me.
And then it hurts, it hurts.
So I create this, like thisbarrier that I can never get
(26:13):
over, and then that's, thatturns into that trauma.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:17):
So, I'm finding with a lot of my
conversations with people, and Iask this personally, because I'm
writing a book right now on maththerapy, and I know this is
going to happen to me too, wherepeople, like, will read a
framework or a structure, like,you talk about it, and you're
like, yeah, like, it's reallygreat, but it doesn't work
unless you do this, or, like,this thing, but, like, first you
got real, What responsibility doyou think the person has who's
(26:38):
creating this structure to,like, talk about every single
thing that needs to be in placefor their structure to work.
Like, I'm finding it, like,actually really hard to navigate
this space where, like, everyoneneeds to be responsible for
everything.
And, like, I guess this is justa personal thing for me because
I'm like, I know people aregoing to read Math Therapy and
they're going to be like, Okay,great, but, like, she's not
talking about conceptuallyunderstanding a problem, so it's
(27:00):
not going to, like, I don'tknow, I'm feeling, I need some
advice.
Like, how,
Jon Orr (27:04):
Yeah, I think there's like, there's, there's like,
what do you call it?
Like, uh, like buckets, there'sbuckets that we all need to
understand.
And you know, you're talkingabout one bucket doesn't
necessarily mean that your jobis to teach all the other
buckets that fits with yourbucket.
But as a, as a profession, youknow, if we are wanting to see
our change in our craft, if weare dedicated to changing
(27:26):
instruction for students so thatwe can meet their needs and put
away this math trauma forever,you know, for every student, I
need to, as a professional,decide on what buckets I need to
fill for myself.
So it's like, I, I need to belike, there's the conceptual
understanding bucket or, orunderstanding math or my roots.
(27:46):
We, you know, Kyle and I, whenwe work with school districts
across North America, you know,we, we help them craft a plan to
meet six different areas of, ofmath professional development in
their, in their district.
So one of those is the roots,which is what Kyle gave that
full example on.
It's like really understandingthe mathematics.
We really need to fill thatbucket for the teacher so that
(28:07):
they're in a position to work onthe other bucket, which is our
pedagogy, our moves in ourclassroom.
You're filling the bucket oflike mindset and thinking about
how to think about mathematicsand beliefs around mathematics.
So, you know, your filling thatbucket with your book doesn't
mean you have to go and go, Hey,I also need to fill this bucket,
but the, these, these kinds ofareas exist and they're all
(28:30):
intertwined.
And I guess Kyle's got up on thescreen right now is like, we
call these like the pieces ofour tree.
We're growing our mathematicaltree.
And the roots of the tree arelike the way we understand
mathematics at a conceptuallevel, and then you're talking
about the math, you know,mindsets, beliefs, our
connection towards mathematics,we call it the soil, the water,
(28:50):
the sunlight, which helped theroots grow.
There are other areas, you know,there are other areas of the
tree as well that can see on thescreen, but there's so many, so
many different, you know, areasthat we all can work on like, as
a teacher, we should work onthese areas and it doesn't mean
that, you know, you just have towork on one or, or fill them
all.
Does that make sense?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:10):
Well, it makes so much sense and I'm so glad
you said it because it's waybetter than the way I've been
saying it.
Like, I just find people arereally at each other's throats
being like, this person's aboutthis thing, but it's not as
important as this thing.
And it's like, I keep beinglike, no, you need all of this
stuff.
Like, that's the whole point.
But I really like, almost theway you're saying it, of being
like, this is about us in ourprofession, being able to be
(29:31):
self reflective and be like,look, here are the things I know
I'm really good at right now,here are the things I'm lacking,
and seeking out thatprofessional development, those
resources, like help where youneed it.
It's like being like, look, Ireally need to go to a therapist
for these specific issues.
Like, I don't need to talk aboutthese, you know?
So like, yeah, I love this.
I really love it.
Kyle Pearce (29:49):
Our biggest, like, you know, what we try to
advocate to those educators andin particular, the district
leaders that we work withthrough our district improvement
program is that you want tofocus on everything, but you
really do have to decide, like,where are you going to start?
So maybe someone might befocusing on the beliefs and
mindset as a start, but where Ithink we run into problems is as
(30:11):
if we look at one thing as it isgoing to fix all.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:16):
Yes.
Yes.
Kyle Pearce (30:16):
And that's really the key.
So for us, it's about awareness.
It's not, you know, we don'twant people to be overwhelmed.
That's why we use this, youknow, nice tree analogy.
So it's easy enough to like,remember.
But it's like, hey, like Jon andI, we admit wholeheartedly that
for many, many years, we focusedprimarily on the actual leaves
(30:37):
of our tree and maybe a littlebit about the branches, right?
So the leaves being theresources, right?
Like we were focused on that andhow we delivered it, which was,
for us, it was engaging, threeact math tasks, that sort of,
but we didn't know about theseother pieces.
And in particular, the roots,which we like the idea of the
(30:59):
roots is that they're hidden.
They're underground, but they'rereally, really important.
So that division we just talkedabout, it's always been there,
but it's been hidden in thebackground.
And I'm telling you right now,you could spend the next 10
years in a district, in aschool, in your own classroom,
focusing only on mindset andbeliefs.
But if we forget why we'refeeding the tree, the water, the
(31:21):
sun, the soil, the soil, that'sto help develop the root
structure.
It's to help develop the limbs.
It's to, you know, it's to doall of these other things.
And I think if we, if we look atit that way, you use the word
holistic, I love it, becauselike, we have to look at math
improvement in the same way.
It's not that one thing or onestructure or one idea or one
(31:43):
area is going to fix it.
I'll argue that, you know, ourbranches were really strong,
like we had really goodpedagogical moves, but
ultimately, the rest of the treewas like suffering, right?
Like our, our root system wasweak, you know, the, the trunk
wasn't developing.
The, the limbs of the treeweren't developing.
It was like, we were doing thatone thing really well, and a lot
(32:04):
of people actually said like,these guys are really good math
teachers at the time, and ourscores weren't getting better.
Like it was like, kids enjoyed
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
Oh my God, you're going to bring up test
scores at the end of the fuckingpodcast?
No.
Jon Orr (32:18):
He didn't say it.
He didn't say it.
He didn't say it.
Don't worry.
Kyle Pearce (32:20):
No, I didn't.
I didn't say it at all.
But you know what I would say,though?
Here's what I will say.
And we don't have to go deeperinto it.
But ultimately, the whole testscore thing in the long run, if
we develop all six areas, thosewill change.
I don't care what questions areon the test because kids are
going to better understand themath, they're going to be
confident enough to do it, andthey're going to be fine.
(32:42):
But the problem is, is we focuson, you know, we always talk to
our district partners, we'relike, how are we going to
measure the change we're making?
And they go test scores.
We're like, well, the problemis, is that test scores aren't
going to change this year.
So how are we going to measurewhat we're changing now to see
if what we're doing now isactually helping us move the
needle.
(33:03):
It's not going to move the testneedle this year.
And I'm going to guess thatuntil you fix all six areas of
that tree, we're not going tosee the actual test scores
change, unless you just getlucky and you got that one group
of students that was going to dopretty well on that test anyway,
like it has nothing to do withthese things that we're doing on
a daily basis in the district,in the schools, in the
(33:26):
classroom, that's a much, muchlonger road for us to actually
change the scores.
We've got to change the detailshere to monitor.
If you look at the tree, you'regoing to go, wow.
The tree's greener.
Wow.
These branches are gettingstronger.
Wow.
The root system's getting wider.
Like all of those things aregoing to be what you'd measure
when you see that you're workingon those different areas.
(33:49):
We can't just say, how good isthe tree?
You know, like how healthy isthe tree at a general level?
That's not going to actually doit.
And the same is true for math.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:00):
Wow.
Snap, snap, snap.
We are on the final twoquestions of the podcast, my
friends.
I mean, that was, that was justbeautiful.
I'm going to need you to answerthese questions in 30 seconds
each.
Okay,
Jon Orr (34:12):
Let's do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:13):
Okay, so the first question, and we'll start
with Jon, is what is the onething you'd like to see change
about math education?
One thing.
30 seconds, go.
Jon Orr (34:22):
I would like to see the professional development towards
math education change to be moreabout, you know, that content
knowledge, the roots of thetree.
Too much of our choices areabout the pedagogy and going
like, we need this pedagogy tochange, change, change the
pedagogy, hey, we want all ofyou to change your pedagogy, but
we're not actually preparing youto change that pedagogy by
(34:43):
giving you what you need tochange that pedagogy, which is
really the understanding of themathematics.
We say pedagogy, but we reallyneed to help teachers just
grapple with the way they'vebeen doing mathematics just with
math problems themselves and nothave any real, real obligation
at this point to do it withstudents, you have to do for
(35:04):
yourself first and really thinkabout how the strategies and the
models you've been using and howyou could be doing it this way.
Get comfortable first, and thenyou can start to think about how
that, that evolves in theclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:16):
You guys cannot talk for 30 seconds.
You can't do it.
Jon Orr (35:20):
I did it.
do it, it 30, I timed it.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:24):
Okay.
Kyle, your turn.
What's the one thing you'd liketo see change?
Kyle Pearce (35:27):
You know what, I would say I would love
Jon Orr (35:29):
Won't be able to do it.
Kyle Pearce (35:30):
For us, this is hard, stop taking my time! Uh,
what I would love is I wouldlove for us to take number sense
and operations, and I would loveto take them out of the math
program for a little while andmake it its own little separate
subject
Vanessa Vakharia (35:45):
Wow.
Kyle Pearce (35:46):
And have the rest of math kind of like be in this
other little subject for alittle while.
And just like really make sure,really, really make sure that we
help people understand,including educators, understand
number sense, fluency andflexibility with numbers and
operations, because I think therest of the job gets so much
easier when we do it and do itwell, and I'm not talking about
(36:07):
just memorizing facts.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:09):
I think that was 30 seconds.
He, that was, that was succinct.
Final question.
What do you say to someone, Jon,who just is like, this is really
great, everything you've talkedabout, but like, I'm just not a
math person.
Jon Orr (36:22):
Well, I think we've been, we've been chatting about
that, that we
Vanessa Vakharia (36:26):
You're wasting time.
Jon Orr (36:27):
We, I am, I am.
We do need to see ourselves asmath people.
And if we're saying we're not amath person, then then we need
to think about what does thatmean?
And why am I saying saying thatabout myself?
Because we have it in ourselvesto do what we want to do, if you
want to become, you know, a mathperson, or you want to become
better at mathematics or yourunderstanding of math, you can
(36:50):
do it.
You just have to choose that.
Like, like you, you could chooseto go on, you know, run a
marathon.
Everyone could do it.
But you just have to choose todedicate yourself to making that
happen.
And I think, I think that's thesame with mathematics.
It's like, I could just say I'mnot a math person, but if
you're, if you're dedicated tomaking this change in yourself,
you can make it happen.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:11):
Thank you so much for that succinct answer.
Kyle?
Kyle Pearce (37:14):
I would love to see us focusing on making the
experience one such that peoplewon't have that problem.
And what I mean by that is thatmeans we in the education
community specifically need tounderstand the mathematics
conceptually well enough that wecan teach it so that more
students can understand itinstead of memorizing it.
(37:38):
And if we do that, I don't thinkwe're going to have to convince
anybody of anything, becausethey're going to trust the math.
They're going to trust what'sgoing on and they're going to be
confident with it.
You don't have people saying thesame thing about literacy and
reading, you know, maybewriting, some people may be like
I'm not great at writing.
I'll be fine if people are like,I'm not very good at writing
down the math that I'm thinkingabout.
You know, but it's like, I wantthem to be able to understand
(38:00):
numbers, operations, how theywork, how they behave.
And if they do, then they'regoing to be in a much better
situation where they go, yeah,like maybe I don't like math so
much, like, I don't want to doit for my career, I don't want
to, you know, whatever.
That's fine.
I'm not a big reader, but I knowhow to read.
And I want more people to havethat reality.
(38:21):
And that really begins with usin the education community, to
do the work ourselves so that wecan help more students see that
in themselves.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:31):
So what I've noticed about your response
styles, which I love, is Kylealways, Kyle's like me, where
like he wants to wrap up hisresponse in something like
really clickbaity and powerfulat the end.
Like he wants to make sure hehas a good soundbite at the end.
So that's why it takes him a bitof time sometimes I think, cause
(38:51):
you're like, I'm like this too.
So I've really, I've noticedthat about you and I appreciate
it.
Cause I'm going to have a lot ofgreat soundbites and you both
have great soundbites.
But like, I noticed that you arelike near the end of your
response, you're like, and nowhow am I going to tie this into
like a really good statement?
Kyle Pearce (39:07):
I love it.
I didn't know that about me.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:09):
Well, now you know that about yourself.
It's time to go.
This has been fucking amazing.
I, I loved it.
I actually didn't know what wewere gonna talk about.
I was like, I just, like,
Jon Orr (39:16):
We didn't either.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:17):
It was, it was so much fun.
It was really fun.
And this division thing, like,I'm gonna go divide shit now.
And I'm, I'm, yeah, thank you.
Bye guys.
Good times.
Jon Orr (39:26):
Thanks so much.
Kyle Pearce (39:26):
Thanks so much for having us, take care.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:30):
Okay, wow, this episode really reminded me
how important it is to inspirekids to understand math rather
than just memorize it.
That's where curiosity is born.
That's where joy and wonderstems from.
That's what matters most when itcomes to students building
meaningful relationships withmath.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(39:54):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(40:15):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
We came in as these like, math geeks, both wanted to
be math teachers.
And it was sort of like, one daywe were in the classroom and
finally realized that otherpeople don't like math, and
that's a real shocker,especially when you've gone
through schooling and you havethis excitement, you want to
share it with students.
And very quickly we recognizethat, Oh my gosh, the majority
(00:25):
of the students that we've beenentrusted to actually educate
are not on the same train as us.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:32):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:55):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
Guys, big news.
This is the first time I've hadtwo guests on the podcast at the
same time.
Editing was a nightmare, Davidwants to kill me, yet here we
are and it was totally worth it.
Today you're going to meet KylePearce and Jon Orr, hosts of the
podcast Make Math Moments.
I tried to start beef with them,but it didn't work because
(01:17):
they're like both actually sonice and Canadian.
So, and instead we ended uphaving the best chat about how
to authentically fuel curiosity,the roots of math trauma, and
why some people just hate math.
Most shocking of all, weactually did math on the
podcast, which I know goesagainst my little disclaimer in
the show intro, but whatever, itall worked out.
I think.
Anyways, let's dive in.
(01:40):
Okay, Kyle and Jon, welcome tothe podcast.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Kyle Pearce (01:45):
Hello!
Jon Orr (01:46):
We're excited!
Vanessa Vakharia (01:47):
This is the first time I've ever interviewed
two people.
And I actually, like, do peopleknow your names?
Or do they just know you as,like, the Make Math Moments
bros?
Jon Orr (01:54):
I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, I've never reallyasked anyone if we were the math
people or like, do you know whowe are?
Kyle Pearce (02:01):
But Jon, you gotta, the people who do know one or
both of our names always get itbackwards.
Jon Orr (02:07):
That's true.
That's true.
Kyle Pearce (02:08):
So at conferences, people call me Jon all the time,
and they call Jon Kyle,
Vanessa Vakharia (02:15):
all the time.
Which is fine.
Well, I didn't know who was whountil literally this moment.
Kyle Pearce (02:20):
I don't think
Jon Orr (02:20):
We're one person.
That's, that's, what everyonethinks.
You know, we're one person,talking to ourselves every day.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:26):
Okay, can you, I, I rarely do this, but I'm so
confused about what you twoactually do.
can you tell me what you do?
Kyle Pearce (02:34):
I wish we prepared for this, Jon, cause I'm not
sure either.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:37):
What is your role?
Like, why are you here?
I know that you have the MakeMath Moments podcast, which I've
been a guest on.
I know you have the Make MathMoments Teacher's Conference,
which I can't wait to talk aboutbecause it's one of my
favorites.
But like, what's your nine tofive?
What's your morning routine?
Like, what's your mission?
Jon Orr (02:52):
Well, up till the last, you know, year, uh, we have
been, practicing classroomteachers.
So, you know, our mission is tohelp change math instruction for
a million students, in terms oftrying to get more engagement,
but also create that, uh, youknow, positive and productive
disposition towards mathematicsthat most people, you know,
(03:13):
don't have, you know, knowingyou this podcast, Math Therapy,
you know that, like the peoplehave this like need to go
through math therapy.
We're trying to change it fromthe classroom level.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:23):
Kyle, it's your turn.
Kyle Pearce (03:24):
I think for both of us, early in our careers, we
came in as these like, mathgeeks, you know, like we both
got math degrees, uh,separately, different
universities, never knew eachother, both wanted to be math
teachers.
And it was sort of like, one daywe were in the classroom and
finally realized that like otherpeople don't like math, you
(03:47):
know, and that's a real shocker,especially when you've gone
through schooling and you havethis, you know, this excitement,
you want to share it withstudents.
And then you go in, and veryquickly we recognize that, Oh my
gosh, the majority of thestudents that we have to
interact with each day, that,that we've been entrusted to
actually educate are not on thesame train as us.
(04:10):
And we could do one of twothings.
We could just do it and say, weput it up on the board we did
what we had to do, we checkedoff the curriculum expectation
and moved on, or we could startgoing down the rabbit hole and
try to figure out like, how dowe actually do this better?
And, you know, for both of us,we took that path and I will
(04:31):
argue that without making thatchoice, I don't know how long I
would have lasted as a mathteacher, because that would have
been really tough to do for 30years straight if we were just
trying to do the same thing overand over again, expecting a
different result.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:47):
Were you surprised?
Like, were you surprised in theclassroom that like, people
weren't into math instructionthe way you were?
Like, were you like in therebeing like, Oh fuck yeah, I'm
going to spread this, I'm goingto like be teaching math and
you're factoring quadratics andyou're like, why does everyone
hate this?
Like, was,
Jon Orr (05:02):
I don't think so.
I don't, I don't remember.
Like, I remember that was thegig, the gig is that you're,
you're in a math class and youknow, like Kyle, like I think
when you said you'd like, youwere surprised that other kids
just didn't like math, like, Idon't think I was surprised the
kids and like my peers didn'tlike math.
Everyone says it, you know,everyone says like, Oh, you're a
math person or, you know, like,Like, you're, you're the math
(05:22):
geek, I'm not the math, like,it's, it's, it's just common,
common phrasing.
Kyle Pearce (05:25):
Maybe I was the only clueless one.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:27):
Kyle, were you surprised?
Kyle Pearce (05:29):
I I guess like I knew that there were some people
that didn't enjoy it but I don'tknow if maybe I just thought
that somehow they'd like itbetter from me.
Like maybe, it was like, peoplewould like me more, or I could
do this better.
And then you go to do it, andthen you realize that, wait a
second, I haven't broughtanything different to the table
(05:49):
than what was taught, you know,all these other years to these
students.
And I think that was the partthat hurt.
Jon Orr (05:56):
I think you go in right, like you go in going
like, I know kids hate math andI'm going to make it better.
I'm going to do it better andI'm going to like make sure, and
then it hurts when you're youknow you're trying different
strategies in there and it'slike all of a sudden that
strategy you thought was goingto be like, that's going to be
the one that turns that kid intoa math believer, and it doesn't,
and you're like, Oh man, what'sgoing on here?
(06:17):
And that kind of like takes youa step back going like, Oh, I
feel deflated now because I putso much effort and thinking and
work and emotion into thislesson and it, and it falls flat
sometimes.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:30):
I think that's probably so relatable to
teachers.
When you say you're like, ourmission is to like, help, you
know, a million students becomemath believers, as you put it,
what's your like thing?
Like, how do you do that?
Like, are you like, ooh, it'slike open middle problems, it's,
you know, low floor, highceiling, it's like some
whiteboard.
It's like, do you have a thing?
Jon Orr (06:49):
I think, those are all like structures.
Those are all resources.
Like those, like, we've got allof that that we grab.
And I think where we're like,Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna do the open middleproblem.
I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonnado a three act math problem.
Like, I'm gonna like put allthese things that I've been
searching on the internet for,for years.
And I've got this, database of,things that I think work, but
(07:10):
what we like, to do when we Kyleand I, this is actually how Kyle
and I kind of partnered uptogether is, is that we were
looking at what is going on inour lessons that makes this one
engaging, but that one fallflat?
Like what is going on here?
And then we ended up doing apresentation at O.
A.
M.
E.
You know, years and years andyears ago, 10 years ago together
on on that.
(07:30):
And it was, we realized thatthere are elements all of these
things have in common.
You know, if you're doing anopen middle problem, what is
going on in that that engagesthe students more than your
typical lesson?
Or like when you're doing athree act math problem, like,
why is that, or how do youstructure it so it's the same as
the open middle problem?
So what we realized, and this isnot like rocket science here,
but what we realized is that,you know, when you're in
(07:52):
teachers college, they're sayingyou got to have a hook.
And really what you're saying islike, I have to draw my students
curiosity in somewhere, and Ihave to create that curious
moment.
And when you have an open middleproblem like that, there is
curious moments at thebeginning.
You've, got this task to do, andthen all of a sudden this
middle, it makes it verycurious.
What happens if I change thisnumber?
What happened when I changedthis number?
Like you're creating that.
(08:12):
You give those students thatopportunity to kind of step into
a lesson and start askingquestions that they weren't
going to ask before when youjust like, Hey, I'm just going
to teach you how to solve twostep equations.
No one's wanting to know thatanswer.
But if you create that curiositymoment, you know, to begin your
lesson to go, Hey, I'm going tocreate an environment and an
experience where you have to,you have to kind of step in with
(08:34):
curiosity, then that allows usto go into in depth and kind of
fuel sensemaking.
Because for years, Kyle and Istarted with curiosity and go,
how do I create these curiousmoments?
But then it was like, as soon asI got them hooked, it's like, ha
ha, I'm going to switch thegears.
And now I'm just going to showyou how to solve two step
equations and not actually getthinking out of this.
(08:55):
So it was like, well, now weneed to fuel sensemaking once we
have that part.
And that's actually where ourlessons, you know, really came
together.
It was like, we got theircuriosity.
We were engaging them, but nowwe're really focused on the
mathematics, the conceptualunderstanding of mathematics.
Part of the engaging part of alesson is getting that
curiosity, but it's actuallymore engaging to get your
students thinking on a regularlevel instead of just giving
(09:15):
them everything.
So it's like, how do youstructure that part?
So when we started structuringour lessons that way, that's
where we started to see thechange.
And that's kind of like morphedinto how we try to make sure we
craft our lessons, craft theresources that we make, talk
about how to engage, helpteachers teach that way, because
most teachers, they're not surehow to do those things and are
(09:36):
scared to do those things, ordon't feel equipped to do those
things, or don't have thebackground knowledge to do those
things.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:43):
Kyle, so one thing, um, Jon said that I
loved, I love that you said youtalked about creating
mathematical experiences forstudents.
Like this idea of, because whenI think of an experience, I
don't think about a question, Idon't think about a lesson, I
actually think about a holisticview of like what their entire
experience is, like bothemotionally, like mentally,
physically in the classroom.
(10:03):
You, one of the cool thingsabout interviewing you guys,
like because I haven'tinterviewed like another
podcaster, is that you've hadlike everyone on your podcast,
so you've heard about everysingle like new framework, and
new idea and whatever.
What to you is like your mostfavorite like framework or
resource or like perspectivethat's come out of your
(10:24):
interviews with guests that youthink kind of fuels this idea of
creating a positive mathematicalexperience that's rife with
curiosity.
Like, do you have anything?
Kyle Pearce (10:32):
What I would say is, you know, kind of goes back
to what Jon was saying is like,what are those elements?
And I would argue that we ineducation and we, we are guilty
of it, like Jon and I werethere, we did this for many
years.
Where it's like you find aresource, or an idea, and then
you kind of like, you know, youhad mentioned open middle, uh,
Jon, you mentioned three actmath tasks, like Jon and I kind
(10:55):
of went down the three act mathtask rabbit hole for a really
long time.
And I'll be honest, was likegreat at the start, but then it
was like the rest of the lessonwas still flat.
It was a great curiositysparker, but then it was like,
we didn't have the tools to doit well.
And I'm going to argue that anyother structure or, or any other
resource can lead to the sameresult, if there isn't more
(11:19):
there for us to dig into.
So what I mean by that is let'ssay, uh, you know, an open
middle problem.
If you just sort of go, here'sthe problem, go do it.
And then the kids do it and thenthat's it.
And you move on.
It's going to lose its luster,And really what it comes down to
for us was like, how do wequestion students so that
they're doing more of thethinking, talk about Peter and,
(11:40):
you know, building, thinkingclassrooms and all of that work,
how do we do that?
And then how do we bring it backtogether, and tie it up with a
bow?
Like how do we consolidate it ina way that students are going to
walk out of this classroom andnot just think I solved a
problem about blank, butactually get a better
understanding of the mathematicsand the behaviors of the
(12:03):
mathematics.
And that's something that Ithink is really easy for us to
miss.
And here's the sad reality.
You can have a fully engagedgroup of students working on a
really amazing task, and theycould walk away and the vast
majority of the students may notactually understand what it was
that they learned or be able toapply it to a different scenario
(12:25):
that is similar, that followsthe same big idea.
And that to me is the part thatI think we struggle with the
most in mathematics education.
And that's what sort ofcaptivated Jon and I around this
work is like going down deeperand going, okay, how do we ask
students to get them to lean in?
How do we give them goodproblems, but then how do we be
(12:46):
intentional about it so it's notjust like entertainment, you
know, like we're not in therejust entertaining kids or giving
them something to keep thembusy, but rather that there's a
very intentional goal, that atthe beginning you were like, I
knew this was going to happen,there's always surprises too,
but you're like, I did it thisway so that you hit this part in
(13:07):
the journey and now, I'm goingto step in and I'm going to do
something very specific based onwhat you've done so far, and I'm
going to use all of yourthinking and I'm going to help
you to make sense of thebehaviors of mathematics.
That's like a Kathy Fosno line,she talks about the behaviors of
the mathematics.
(13:27):
And only when you understandthose behaviors, can you
actually start thinkingmathematically.
And only when you feel confidentto think mathematically, can you
truly feel a productivedisposition towards the
mathematics.
Cause that's when you start totrust the mathematics and you
trust that you have the tools inplace to help you work your way
(13:49):
out of any issue or anysituation that you might find
yourself in.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:54):
I mean, look, I'm going to be honest here.
Everything you said soundedamazing.
It sounded so good.
I'm listening to it, I'm like,yes, you're bringing trust into
it, which I can't wait to talkabout.
But honestly, at the end of itall, I still, I'm like, I don't
know what you mean and I bringthis up because I actually think
something you guys are really,really good at is, uh, creating
(14:17):
ways for teachers to take thesephilosophies and actualize them
in, in their classrooms.
And you're talking about that,but I need an example because
I'm listening to this and I'mlike, I still, like, I still
don't know what you mean.
So I started with an open middleproblem.
It was all good.
People were curious.
And then you keep being like butthat's not enough and we have to
like, get the, but what, what iseverything you just said mean?
(14:39):
Can I have like an actualexample?
Kyle Pearce (14:44):
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:45):
Was that mean?
I just, like, it sounds likethese really good words but I
don't know how it like actuallyworks.
Jon Orr (14:50):
I'll, before Kyle gives you the example, because he's
got a good example, But, Kyleand I actually for the last
couple of years have, you know,worked with school districts on
a regular basis.
So that's also what we do duringthe day.
Is in help them shape thestructure of the math PD that
they're giving their teachers.
And what we're finding, youknow, what we're finding is that
is, and we used to, we used totravel, you know, across North
(15:11):
America and go in and do a, youknow, a one hour session or a
full day workshop or, thosetypes of things.
But we would leave and, youknow, there's remnants of what
you did, but there's no likereal lasting change.
And, and the work that we'vebeen doing, we've actually
uncovered, I, I think it's not,it's not like we uncovered it,
but I think it's kind of like,it just needs to be pointed out
that so many of the, theroutines, you know, those things
(15:34):
that we just said, an openmiddle problem, you know, Dan's
three act tasks or, or any ofthe other structures that we,
you know, we, we've mentioned
Vanessa Vakharia (15:42):
I like that you're calling them structures.
Jon Orr (15:44):
Yeah, because they are, they're like framework
structures, you know, routinesthat we're doing in our
classroom.
It's like every, every one ofthose.
So if you think of Peter, uh,Liljedahl's, you know, Building
Thinking Classrooms, his 14practices.
Like we're asking teachers, likeall of these ask teachers to
step away from the, the, youknow, the tested I've done this
for years.
I'm just going to lecture.
I'm going to give you thecontent.
(16:05):
And then I'm going to ask you topractice the content.
Why, why teachers have relied onthat so much, especially,
especially middle school andlower teachers is because
they're, they're not confidentwith the, the mathematics.
They don't, they're not sure whythings work or how to represent
them differently than thestandard algorithms that, that
(16:26):
we, we've been, you know, we'velearned.
So what we're asking teachers todo and why there's pushback on
different strategies is, is thatwe're, all of these school
districts have been askedteachers to go like, I want you
to teach like Peter's classroom.
I want you to do this, this openmiddle problem.
I want to do this, but you'reasking teachers to go like, wait
a minute.
I, I only have been doing thelecture because I'm not sure how
(16:47):
all this works.
And if a kid asked me stuff, orI'm not sure exactly how to
phrase it differently or, oreven model it differently
because I just have this scriptthat I've been following for
years.
And that's just what I wastaught when I was a kid.
And instead of going like, wewant you to stop that.
We want you to actually likegive kids the freedom to solve
problems, and you now have tonot only allow that in classroom
(17:10):
management in the classroom todo those things, but you also
have to be ready andknowledgeable enough to interact
with the way a student doessolve a problem that's different
than the way you know how tosolve the problem.
What happens if they solve itthis way?
How do I know that that's wrong?
Now it's scary for teachers todo that.
So what we're saying is like,when we've been partnering with
school districts, most areasking teachers to change
(17:33):
instruction to this, but notequipping them with the
background knowledge onunderstanding how to solve
problems differently, whatmodels or strategies that those
teachers can use that helpcreate fluency different than
just showing standardalgorithms, and then building
that conceptual understanding sokids can move towards procedural
fluency, which is like, I can dothis, you know, with, with my
(17:55):
eyes closed, but real fluency,like I can do this with my eyes
closed this way, but I couldpivot over here and model it and
show you this way.
Like that's real fluency, likebeing able to like switch in
between different, uh,representations of the
mathematics.
So that's like a long winded wayof kind of, I think, saying what
Kyle is saying, but Kyle, whydon't you give the example.
Kyle Pearce (18:15):
Well, here, here's, I'm going to share at least one
of the biggest challenges thatwe have in order to do this
well.
And it's really does come downto conceptual understanding.
So Jon talks about this fluencyand flexibility, which is, which
is a part of the conceptualunderstanding.
And the reality is, is that mostof us, and Jon, you said middle
(18:35):
and, and lower, I'm going toargue that like, all of us, like
K through 12, and beyond in manycases, actually don't
necessarily, like there
Vanessa Vakharia (18:45):
I, 100%.
I'm a high school math teacherand I have no, like seriously,
I, no one ever told me whyflipping and multiplying is what
you do with division.
Deborah Peart taught it to metwo months ago and I was like,
like, I, I didn't even know andI didn't need to know and I've
never even questioned it.
Kyle Pearce (19:01):
Yeah, totally.
And, and this is the thing andit's the kids who trust blindly.
I was that kid.
Jon that kid.
It sounds like maybe you werethat kid, right?
The kids who trust blindly, andare able to memorize steps and
procedures, traditionally havebeen what we call the math
people.
And people say, there's no suchthing as math people.
(19:22):
I'm like, heck yes, there is, inthat world where math is only
memorization.
Of course, there's math peoplebecause not everyone's going to
be able to memorize somethingblindly right?
That's the reality of thesituation.
I believe if we do it actuallyholistically, like you're
saying, but then also looking atall five proficiencies of
mathematics, we can all beamazing mathematicians.
(19:45):
But the difference is, is thatyou can't just turn that on.
It's not like all of ourteachers in the past have been
like, you know, we don't want topull out the whole conceptual
understanding thing because likeit might, be, you know, it might
like let everyone understand it,you know, like it's like, no, we
just don't know it.
The example that's so easy.
You talked about why flippingand, and multiplying for
(20:07):
dividing fractions, why we'venever known it.
Well, I'm going to go evenearlier and say, I never knew
that there was two types ofdivision.
Right?
Like dividing two whole numbers,you are always dividing with one
of two structures.
Use that word again, structuresof division and what you might
be like, what the heck are youtalking
Vanessa Vakharia (20:28):
I, my face is saying, what the heck are you
talking
Kyle Pearce (20:30):
Exactly, this
Jon Orr (20:31):
Wait, don't I just divide two numbers and boom,
there's an answer?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:35):
Yeah, what are you talking about?
Kyle Pearce (20:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:38):
Like 10 divided by five.
Kyle Pearce (20:40):
Yeah.
So now let's think about withcontext, right?
With numbers.
Here's the crazy part.
If you use naked problems like10 divided by five, what you'll
tend to do, tend, not ten to do,tend to is you're going to use
you're going to naturally do thedivision structure that fits the
numbers easiest, without evenknowing it, right?
(21:04):
So in certain cases, like you'llbe like, okay, let's do, let's,
let's pick an easy one.
Uh, let's go 10 divided by two.
How, like, you know, the answer,I know, you know, the answer,
but you had to actually likeexplain how you're going to
divide that, tell me how you'regoing to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:19):
Well, this is so interesting because I was
just teaching a grade 8 kid theother day and realized he didn't
know what division was becausewhen I said 10 divided by 2, he
did this.
Oh, sorry.
I'm, I'm, I'm making a splittingmotion with my hand and he was
like 5.
And then when I was like Okay,what's 20 divided by 2, if I
said 2 he could split it, if Isaid any other number he didn't
know what to do.
(21:40):
What I'm doing, when you say 10divided by, I don't know what
I'm doing, 10 divided by 2, Imean I just I know it's 5, but I
think I'm thinking like 2 groupsof 5, I think.
Kyle Pearce (21:49):
Interesting.
So two groups of five.
So now let's think about this.
When that student went likethis, that student actually
really understands one of thetwo types of division.
That's partitive division.
You put
Vanessa Vakharia (22:00):
What the fuck, I've never heard this.
Kyle Pearce (22:03):
Yeah, I know.
This is the crazy part.
Neither have I.
I mean, now I do, but I justsaid it, but I went and I got a
math degree and I neverrecognized the fact that
sometimes ten divided by twomeans make two groups and other
times it's like make groups oftwo and count how many groups
there are.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:22):
What?
Pause.
Pause.
When it mean that?
What?
Ten divided by two is makingfive groups of two.
Like, I know that works, butlike, why would you think of it
that way?
Kyle Pearce (22:34):
So now let's think about this.
Now let's layer in context.
I got 10 apples and I have twopeople, right?
What are we going to do ifthere's 10 apples and there's
two people, even very youngchildren know what this is.
They're like, you don't have tosay it's division.
You say there's 10 apples and Iwant you to give them fairly to
all the people.
(22:55):
And they go, Oh, one for you,one for you.
That's called
Vanessa Vakharia (22:58):
Uh, what's that called?
Jon Orr (23:00):
Fair sharing
Kyle Pearce (23:01):
Yeah.
Fair sharing.
It's like here, one for you, onefor you, one for you, one for,
Oh, each person ends up withfive each, but that, what that
is is that's one type.
Because the other option is youcould say, Hey, I got 10 apples
and I want everybody to get twoapples each.
Hmm.
(23:21):
Now it's different.
I can't fair share that, or atleast share in the same way.
I could, I could go like two foryou, two for you, and then I
just keep going until I run outof apples.
Before I was going, okay, onefor you, one for you, one for
you, till I ran out of apples.
Which might seem like it's thesame thing, it's actually very
different.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:41):
This is the most math we've ever done on
this podcast.
Like, this so crazy for me andour listeners.
So, okay, Kyle's been talkingfor this entire time, so now
it's Jon's turn to speak,because we can't tell your
voices apart.
How do you think, this is apodcast about math trauma.
and math therapy.
How do you think all of thisstuff, I mean, this is actually
really blowing my mind, but all,one thing that really stuck with
(24:03):
me is you said, because youknow, teachers are so strapped
for time.
And the biggest conversationright now is like, I love it,
but I don't have time.
I love it but I don't have time.
How does the way we currentlyteach math versus this idea of
true understanding, how do youthink that actually affects kids
when it comes to the developmentor triggering of math trauma?
Like, is this something you'vethought about?
Jon Orr (24:23):
This is, I think why so many students develop that math
trauma, is because they're notbeing brought through this
process of going like, I'm putin a position to want to know
the answer to this.
And then I also want to be putinto a position where it makes
sense to me.
And I think, I think that'swhere the trauma ends up coming
(24:45):
from.
We end up saying like, you justshould know it because the
teacher also doesn't know it.
They're not saying like, like,well, why do I flip and multiply
or why, you know, in thisparticular thing.
And the teacher's like, that'sjust the way you do it.
But then that creates like a lotof conflict in us to go like,
but I want to know the answer.
And then all of a sudden there'slike an animosity towards the
(25:06):
teacher, there's animositytowards mathematics itself.
Going like this, but there's nogood answer, now it doesn't make
sense to me, math doesn't makesense to me, math is not for me,
I hate mathematics.
And it's because, if we don'thave good answers to these
wonders, these questions, thisconnection towards why this
(25:26):
makes sense, like as long as youcan make it sense for a student,
this is why it's like, it madesense to you because you were
like, I can follow that pattern,right?
For you, it was probably like,cause that was true for me
becoming like, um, you know, amath teacher is like the teacher
might say, do it this way, and Iwould say, Hey, look, if I do it
that way every time, it works,that makes sense to me, because
(25:49):
I'm not really like seeking, Iwasn't back then, seeking like
the real understanding answer.
And it was only until I metstudents who were like, but why?
Like I need to understand thewhy.
And talk to adults who have thatlike animosity towards
mathematics also were like, Ialways wanted to know why, but
no one could explain it to me.
And then it hurts, it hurts.
So I create this, like thisbarrier that I can never get
(26:13):
over, and then that's, thatturns into that trauma.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:17):
So, I'm finding with a lot of my
conversations with people, and Iask this personally, because I'm
writing a book right now on maththerapy, and I know this is
going to happen to me too, wherepeople, like, will read a
framework or a structure, like,you talk about it, and you're
like, yeah, like, it's reallygreat, but it doesn't work
unless you do this, or, like,this thing, but, like, first you
got real, What responsibility doyou think the person has who's
(26:38):
creating this structure to,like, talk about every single
thing that needs to be in placefor their structure to work.
Like, I'm finding it, like,actually really hard to navigate
this space where, like, everyoneneeds to be responsible for
everything.
And, like, I guess this is justa personal thing for me because
I'm like, I know people aregoing to read Math Therapy and
they're going to be like, Okay,great, but, like, she's not
talking about conceptuallyunderstanding a problem, so it's
(27:00):
not going to, like, I don'tknow, I'm feeling, I need some
advice.
Like, how,
Jon Orr (27:04):
Yeah, I think there's like, there's, there's like,
what do you call it?
Like, uh, like buckets, there'sbuckets that we all need to
understand.
And you know, you're talkingabout one bucket doesn't
necessarily mean that your jobis to teach all the other
buckets that fits with yourbucket.
But as a, as a profession, youknow, if we are wanting to see
our change in our craft, if weare dedicated to changing
(27:26):
instruction for students so thatwe can meet their needs and put
away this math trauma forever,you know, for every student, I
need to, as a professional,decide on what buckets I need to
fill for myself.
So it's like, I, I need to belike, there's the conceptual
understanding bucket or, orunderstanding math or my roots.
(27:46):
We, you know, Kyle and I, whenwe work with school districts
across North America, you know,we, we help them craft a plan to
meet six different areas of, ofmath professional development in
their, in their district.
So one of those is the roots,which is what Kyle gave that
full example on.
It's like really understandingthe mathematics.
We really need to fill thatbucket for the teacher so that
(28:07):
they're in a position to work onthe other bucket, which is our
pedagogy, our moves in ourclassroom.
You're filling the bucket oflike mindset and thinking about
how to think about mathematicsand beliefs around mathematics.
So, you know, your filling thatbucket with your book doesn't
mean you have to go and go, Hey,I also need to fill this bucket,
but the, these, these kinds ofareas exist and they're all
(28:30):
intertwined.
And I guess Kyle's got up on thescreen right now is like, we
call these like the pieces ofour tree.
We're growing our mathematicaltree.
And the roots of the tree arelike the way we understand
mathematics at a conceptuallevel, and then you're talking
about the math, you know,mindsets, beliefs, our
connection towards mathematics,we call it the soil, the water,
(28:50):
the sunlight, which helped theroots grow.
There are other areas, you know,there are other areas of the
tree as well that can see on thescreen, but there's so many, so
many different, you know, areasthat we all can work on like, as
a teacher, we should work onthese areas and it doesn't mean
that, you know, you just have towork on one or, or fill them
all.
Does that make sense?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:10):
Well, it makes so much sense and I'm so glad
you said it because it's waybetter than the way I've been
saying it.
Like, I just find people arereally at each other's throats
being like, this person's aboutthis thing, but it's not as
important as this thing.
And it's like, I keep beinglike, no, you need all of this
stuff.
Like, that's the whole point.
But I really like, almost theway you're saying it, of being
like, this is about us in ourprofession, being able to be
(29:31):
self reflective and be like,look, here are the things I know
I'm really good at right now,here are the things I'm lacking,
and seeking out thatprofessional development, those
resources, like help where youneed it.
It's like being like, look, Ireally need to go to a therapist
for these specific issues.
Like, I don't need to talk aboutthese, you know?
So like, yeah, I love this.
I really love it.
Kyle Pearce (29:49):
Our biggest, like, you know, what we try to
advocate to those educators andin particular, the district
leaders that we work withthrough our district improvement
program is that you want tofocus on everything, but you
really do have to decide, like,where are you going to start?
So maybe someone might befocusing on the beliefs and
mindset as a start, but where Ithink we run into problems is as
(30:11):
if we look at one thing as it isgoing to fix all.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:16):
Yes.
Yes.
Kyle Pearce (30:16):
And that's really the key.
So for us, it's about awareness.
It's not, you know, we don'twant people to be overwhelmed.
That's why we use this, youknow, nice tree analogy.
So it's easy enough to like,remember.
But it's like, hey, like Jon andI, we admit wholeheartedly that
for many, many years, we focusedprimarily on the actual leaves
(30:37):
of our tree and maybe a littlebit about the branches, right?
So the leaves being theresources, right?
Like we were focused on that andhow we delivered it, which was,
for us, it was engaging, threeact math tasks, that sort of,
but we didn't know about theseother pieces.
And in particular, the roots,which we like the idea of the
(30:59):
roots is that they're hidden.
They're underground, but they'rereally, really important.
So that division we just talkedabout, it's always been there,
but it's been hidden in thebackground.
And I'm telling you right now,you could spend the next 10
years in a district, in aschool, in your own classroom,
focusing only on mindset andbeliefs.
But if we forget why we'refeeding the tree, the water, the
(31:21):
sun, the soil, the soil, that'sto help develop the root
structure.
It's to help develop the limbs.
It's to, you know, it's to doall of these other things.
And I think if we, if we look atit that way, you use the word
holistic, I love it, becauselike, we have to look at math
improvement in the same way.
It's not that one thing or onestructure or one idea or one
(31:43):
area is going to fix it.
I'll argue that, you know, ourbranches were really strong,
like we had really goodpedagogical moves, but
ultimately, the rest of the treewas like suffering, right?
Like our, our root system wasweak, you know, the, the trunk
wasn't developing.
The, the limbs of the treeweren't developing.
It was like, we were doing thatone thing really well, and a lot
(32:04):
of people actually said like,these guys are really good math
teachers at the time, and ourscores weren't getting better.
Like it was like, kids enjoyed
Vanessa Vakharia (32:13):
Oh my God, you're going to bring up test
scores at the end of the fuckingpodcast?
No.
Jon Orr (32:18):
He didn't say it.
He didn't say it.
He didn't say it.
Don't worry.
Kyle Pearce (32:20):
No, I didn't.
I didn't say it at all.
But you know what I would say,though?
Here's what I will say.
And we don't have to go deeperinto it.
But ultimately, the whole testscore thing in the long run, if
we develop all six areas, thosewill change.
I don't care what questions areon the test because kids are
going to better understand themath, they're going to be
confident enough to do it, andthey're going to be fine.
(32:42):
But the problem is, is we focuson, you know, we always talk to
our district partners, we'relike, how are we going to
measure the change we're making?
And they go test scores.
We're like, well, the problemis, is that test scores aren't
going to change this year.
So how are we going to measurewhat we're changing now to see
if what we're doing now isactually helping us move the
needle.
(33:03):
It's not going to move the testneedle this year.
And I'm going to guess thatuntil you fix all six areas of
that tree, we're not going tosee the actual test scores
change, unless you just getlucky and you got that one group
of students that was going to dopretty well on that test anyway,
like it has nothing to do withthese things that we're doing on
a daily basis in the district,in the schools, in the
(33:26):
classroom, that's a much, muchlonger road for us to actually
change the scores.
We've got to change the detailshere to monitor.
If you look at the tree, you'regoing to go, wow.
The tree's greener.
Wow.
These branches are gettingstronger.
Wow.
The root system's getting wider.
Like all of those things aregoing to be what you'd measure
when you see that you're workingon those different areas.
(33:49):
We can't just say, how good isthe tree?
You know, like how healthy isthe tree at a general level?
That's not going to actually doit.
And the same is true for math.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:00):
Wow.
Snap, snap, snap.
We are on the final twoquestions of the podcast, my
friends.
I mean, that was, that was justbeautiful.
I'm going to need you to answerthese questions in 30 seconds
each.
Okay,
Jon Orr (34:12):
Let's do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:13):
Okay, so the first question, and we'll start
with Jon, is what is the onething you'd like to see change
about math education?
One thing.
30 seconds, go.
Jon Orr (34:22):
I would like to see the professional development towards
math education change to be moreabout, you know, that content
knowledge, the roots of thetree.
Too much of our choices areabout the pedagogy and going
like, we need this pedagogy tochange, change, change the
pedagogy, hey, we want all ofyou to change your pedagogy, but
we're not actually preparing youto change that pedagogy by
(34:43):
giving you what you need tochange that pedagogy, which is
really the understanding of themathematics.
We say pedagogy, but we reallyneed to help teachers just
grapple with the way they'vebeen doing mathematics just with
math problems themselves and nothave any real, real obligation
at this point to do it withstudents, you have to do for
(35:04):
yourself first and really thinkabout how the strategies and the
models you've been using and howyou could be doing it this way.
Get comfortable first, and thenyou can start to think about how
that, that evolves in theclassroom.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:16):
You guys cannot talk for 30 seconds.
You can't do it.
Jon Orr (35:20):
I did it.
do it, it 30, I timed it.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:24):
Okay.
Kyle, your turn.
What's the one thing you'd liketo see change?
Kyle Pearce (35:27):
You know what, I would say I would love
Jon Orr (35:29):
Won't be able to do it.
Kyle Pearce (35:30):
For us, this is hard, stop taking my time! Uh,
what I would love is I wouldlove for us to take number sense
and operations, and I would loveto take them out of the math
program for a little while andmake it its own little separate
subject
Vanessa Vakharia (35:45):
Wow.
Kyle Pearce (35:46):
And have the rest of math kind of like be in this
other little subject for alittle while.
And just like really make sure,really, really make sure that we
help people understand,including educators, understand
number sense, fluency andflexibility with numbers and
operations, because I think therest of the job gets so much
easier when we do it and do itwell, and I'm not talking about
(36:07):
just memorizing facts.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:09):
I think that was 30 seconds.
He, that was, that was succinct.
Final question.
What do you say to someone, Jon,who just is like, this is really
great, everything you've talkedabout, but like, I'm just not a
math person.
Jon Orr (36:22):
Well, I think we've been, we've been chatting about
that, that we
Vanessa Vakharia (36:26):
You're wasting time.
Jon Orr (36:27):
We, I am, I am.
We do need to see ourselves asmath people.
And if we're saying we're not amath person, then then we need
to think about what does thatmean?
And why am I saying saying thatabout myself?
Because we have it in ourselvesto do what we want to do, if you
want to become, you know, a mathperson, or you want to become
better at mathematics or yourunderstanding of math, you can
(36:50):
do it.
You just have to choose that.
Like, like you, you could chooseto go on, you know, run a
marathon.
Everyone could do it.
But you just have to choose todedicate yourself to making that
happen.
And I think, I think that's thesame with mathematics.
It's like, I could just say I'mnot a math person, but if
you're, if you're dedicated tomaking this change in yourself,
you can make it happen.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:11):
Thank you so much for that succinct answer.
Kyle?
Kyle Pearce (37:14):
I would love to see us focusing on making the
experience one such that peoplewon't have that problem.
And what I mean by that is thatmeans we in the education
community specifically need tounderstand the mathematics
conceptually well enough that wecan teach it so that more
students can understand itinstead of memorizing it.
(37:38):
And if we do that, I don't thinkwe're going to have to convince
anybody of anything, becausethey're going to trust the math.
They're going to trust what'sgoing on and they're going to be
confident with it.
You don't have people saying thesame thing about literacy and
reading, you know, maybewriting, some people may be like
I'm not great at writing.
I'll be fine if people are like,I'm not very good at writing
down the math that I'm thinkingabout.
You know, but it's like, I wantthem to be able to understand
(38:00):
numbers, operations, how theywork, how they behave.
And if they do, then they'regoing to be in a much better
situation where they go, yeah,like maybe I don't like math so
much, like, I don't want to doit for my career, I don't want
to, you know, whatever.
That's fine.
I'm not a big reader, but I knowhow to read.
And I want more people to havethat reality.
(38:21):
And that really begins with usin the education community, to
do the work ourselves so that wecan help more students see that
in themselves.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:31):
So what I've noticed about your response
styles, which I love, is Kylealways, Kyle's like me, where
like he wants to wrap up hisresponse in something like
really clickbaity and powerfulat the end.
Like he wants to make sure hehas a good soundbite at the end.
So that's why it takes him a bitof time sometimes I think, cause
(38:51):
you're like, I'm like this too.
So I've really, I've noticedthat about you and I appreciate
it.
Cause I'm going to have a lot ofgreat soundbites and you both
have great soundbites.
But like, I noticed that you arelike near the end of your
response, you're like, and nowhow am I going to tie this into
like a really good statement?
Kyle Pearce (39:07):
I love it.
I didn't know that about me.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:09):
Well, now you know that about yourself.
It's time to go.
This has been fucking amazing.
I, I loved it.
I actually didn't know what wewere gonna talk about.
I was like, I just, like,
Jon Orr (39:16):
We didn't either.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:17):
It was, it was so much fun.
It was really fun.
And this division thing, like,I'm gonna go divide shit now.
And I'm, I'm, yeah, thank you.
Bye guys.
Good times.
Jon Orr (39:26):
Thanks so much.
Kyle Pearce (39:26):
Thanks so much for having us, take care.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:30):
Okay, wow, this episode really reminded me
how important it is to inspirekids to understand math rather
than just memorize it.
That's where curiosity is born.
That's where joy and wonderstems from.
That's what matters most when itcomes to students building
meaningful relationships withmath.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
(39:54):
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
(40:15):
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
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