September 12, 2024 • 43 mins
Having attended and presented at the annual NCTM (National Council of Teachers of Mathematics) conference, Vanessa reached out to "famously nice guy" Kevin Dykema, the organization's President, to learn more about his journey to the top. Along the way she was surprised to learn that even he battles imposter syndrome, and the way he's learned to deal with it is by "learning what he doesn't know" and not being afraid to reach out for help.
Today's conversation covered the pros and cons of professional development, advice on how teachers can adapt to changing education systems, and how perspectives on math anxiety have shifted in recent years. Kevin has an incredibly inspiring and optimistic outlook on education and you're going to love this convo!
About Kevin: (Twitter)
Kevin Dykema is President of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM), an international mathematics education organization with more than 30,000 members. He has taught 8th grade mathematics for over 25 years and is currently at Mattawan Middle School in southwest Michigan. Kevin is a frequent speaker before mathematics education audiences and has co-authored Productive Math Struggle.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Dykema (00:02):
If I want my students to be willing to take
risks and to learn something,I've got to be willing to model
that by taking risks of my own.
There are times that I'll tellmy students, I tried something
new, it flat out didn't work,let's try something different.
And I think as teachers, we needto model that.
And we need to really keep thestudent in the center of mind.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:23):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:46):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
So one of the biggest matheducation conferences ever
happens every single fall andit's happening again in less
than two weeks.
So I thought I would bring on avery special guest who I've
never actually spoken to, buthave always wanted to: Kevin
Dykema, President of theNational Council of Teachers of
(01:08):
Mathematics, aka NCTM.
Honestly, guys, thisconversation took so many twists
and turns.
I didn't even get to ask any ofthe questions I had planned.
We got so deep into why peopleare so resistant to change in
math ed and how challenging itis for teachers to change their
approach to teaching whenthey're currently being expected
to teach in a way they werenever taught or never even
(01:30):
trained to teach.
And obviously we talked about mynew book for two seconds.
It's called Math Therapy andit's full of strategies, tools,
templates, all of this fun stuffto help teachers prevent and
heal math trauma in theirclassrooms.
I'm just so excited, I had tolike throw in this shameless
plug because you can officiallyorder it right now by heading to
www.maththerapy.com.
(01:52):
Also side note, kevin wasactually somewhat disappointed
that I didn't end up uttering asingle swear word during our
interview, despite my warningsthat I am a voracious swearer.
So I thought I would fix thatright now by saying, you guys
are gonna love Kevin, so let'sfucking go.
Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
I have been like a fan of yoursfrom afar, I think for a very
(02:16):
long time, but I don't thinkwe've ever had a conversation in
actual person, but I have tosay, every single time I talk
about you or you come up inconversation, everyone's like,
Oh my God, Kevin, he's thenicest guy, like, uh, and I'm
always like, who is this man ofmystery?
So, so I just want to start bysaying thank you for gracing me
with your presence.
Kevin Dykema (02:36):
Thanks for the invitation.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation today.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:40):
Me too.
Okay.
So in addition to everyonesaying, um, that you're the
greatest guy ever, I've beenstarting to like, wonder why
everyone says that.
And in my mind, I'm like, youknow, everyone who I talk to you
about knows you professionally.
And when someone is so nice andemanating such good vibes, it's
normally because they reallylove what they do.
I kind of wanted to start byasking you, like, how did this
(03:03):
rise to fame begin?
Like, how did you become thepresident of NCTM?
Kevin Dykema (03:07):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (03:08):
How
Kevin Dykema (03:08):
and I hesitate to call it a rise to fame because
there are, there are so manypeople who are so knowledgeable
in the world of mathematicseducation.
So I've been an 8th grade mathteacher my entire life, over 25
years of teaching 8th graders,and I love my 8th graders most
days.
I was heavily involved with theMichigan Council of Teachers of
(03:29):
Mathematics, served on theirboard, served as the, the
conference program chair for sixor seven years.
And then somebody said, heyKevin, would you run for the
NCTM board?
I said sure, so I ran for theboard, didn't think I was gonna
get picked, didn't get elected.
Because when I looked at thelist of who else was the
candidates who was on the board,I mean, these are the rock stars
(03:50):
of math education, these are thewell known people and here I was
a classroom teacher fromSouthwest Michigan.
Much to my surprise, I waselected.
So I served a three year termfrom 2016 to 2019.
And then when there was a roundof nominations for president,
all of a sudden I startedgetting emails and texts from a
variety of different peoplesaying, Hey Kevin, we think it's
(04:11):
time for a classroom teacher tobecome president of NCTM, and we
think you're the person for it.
I don't think it was a concertedeffort because I don't know how
these people knew each other, soI think it truly was just a
conglomeration of differentpeople.
I had the, the, the impostersyndrome.
I thought there was no way.
I don't have a PhD, I'm notintelligent enough, I don't know
(04:32):
enough about all the differentareas of math education to be
able to speak intelligently.
I had a wonderful conversationwith somebody with a PhD and I
shared that and she said,welcome to my life.
When I talk to somebody who alsowas a PhD, their specialty is
something different than myspecialty.
I can't talk about theirspecialty as knowledgeable as
they can.
(04:54):
And she said, really the role ofpresident is just to know what
you don't know and seek outpeople who, who do know better.
And I've been so fortunate thatover these past two years,
anytime I've reached out toanybody, they've all said, sure,
I'll give you a half hour of mytime and help educate you with,
with a variety of differentthings.
(05:16):
So this presidency has probablybeen the greatest professional
development for me.
I have learned so much aboutmath education, learned so much
about humanity and been able tomeet so many wonderful people
such as yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Oh my God.
This, this is why people sayyou're the nicest guy ever.
But like so many things, youknow, you just said something so
interesting, you said, I lovewhat this person said to you,
that the role of president is toknow what you don't know.
And I actually want to pause onthat for a second because I feel
like, I mean, and this for suretouches on the imposter syndrome
(05:49):
I experience sometimes, that youfeel like if you, you know, and
that, you know what, in fact,we're going to get right into it
because this is a podcast aboutmath trauma.
And I feel like so many teachersthemselves experience math
anxiety because they think ifthey don't know everything, they
can't possibly get up in frontof the room and try a new
strategy and teach something.
And I also, you know, so Iactually want to hear a little
(06:10):
more about that, that idea ofyour role is to know what you
don't know.
How do you navigate that withlike that feeling that like, you
should know more than you do.
Kevin Dykema (06:21):
Yeah, and it's a daily battle.
It's something that I constantlyget there, and anytime I get a
media request, I have, oh, thereare so many people who are much
better equipped to talk to thisreporter about this topic.
And that just means, hey, I needto make sure that I know what's
going on.
I need to make sure I'mcommunicating with a variety of
(06:42):
different people who have thatarea and reaffirm what I think I
know.
And a lot of times when I'm,when I'm thinking about a
president's message that I'mwriting, thinking about a media
request, thinking about apresentation I have to give, you
know, I come up with my list oftalking points.
Here's what I think about this.
And then run it past somebodywho has more expertise in that
(07:03):
area.
And then they say, Hey, yep,looks good.
Or maybe you should have addedthis little bit to it as well.
So it's been a wonderfulexperience.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
What would you say to a math teacher who
experiences that same kind ofthing, right?
Like, who's kind of like, well,I kind of am worried about
teaching this new concept.
This kind of actually, to me,goes into a big question I have
about professional developmentthat I'll probably get to later,
but I'll just touch on itquickly now, which is that
because of the way matheducation is moving right now,
(07:34):
so many teachers are expected toteach in a way they weren't
taught, right?
Like they haven't experiencedthat form of teaching
themselves.
They weren't necessarily trainedin like their teacher program to
teach that way.
So they learn all these likeincredible strategies during a
one hour PD and they feel likethat combined with their own
anxiety they might have aroundmath makes them unprepared to go
(07:56):
try those in the classroom.
What, what kind of advice do youhave for them on that?
Kevin Dykema (08:03):
Yeah.
So I think the advice that I'dhave is the same advice I give
myself all the time.
If I want my students to bewilling to take risks and to
learn something, I've got to bewilling to model that by taking
risks of on my own.
There are times that I'll tellmy students, you know what, I
tried something new, it flat outdidn't work, let's try something
(08:24):
different.
Let's not just keep doing thatsame thing over and over and
over again.
And I think as teachers, we needto model that.
And we need to really keep thestudent in the center of mind.
I know that if I teach the waythat I was taught, I'll reach a
subset of students.
And that's fantastic.
But if I'm truly interested inmeeting the needs of all of my
(08:45):
students, I have to be willingto try different things.
I need to continually remindmyself, what works for student A
is not going to work for studentB, is not going to work for
student C.
There is no one thing that everysingle student is going to
connect with and every singlestrategy or some strategy that
every single student is going tobe like, Oh, this is exactly
what I need.
(09:05):
I think our job as educators, isto be willing to try a variety
of different things, if we'retruly interested in meeting the
needs of all of our students.
And I think so often we say, Ohyeah, we want to meet all of our
students needs.
But it's one thing to say it.
It's another thing to show itwith our actions and being
willing to try different things.
And it's tough.
It's tough when I try somethingnew that's a little out of my
(09:28):
comfort zone.
And I've got to remind myself,it's okay if it didn't work
smoothly the first time.
It's okay if it didn't work assmoothly the second time.
Change takes a little bit.
By about the third or fourthtime I've tried something, I
start to get a better sense.
Is this going to meet studentsneeds?
Is it not going to meet studentsneeds?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:47):
You're making me think of a bit of a juicy
question, this is a bitcontroversial, but I'm thinking
what you said at the beginning.
Like you said, I know if I teachthe way I was taught, I'll reach
a certain subset of students,but I want to reach, you know,
everyone.
But at the same time, there's noone way to meet everyone's
needs.
I mean, We know that there are alot of people who are just kind
(10:09):
of like, all of this new stuffis garbage, just stick to the
way it was already done.
And one of the arguments I hear,and I never know how to respond,
so now I'm just asking you howto respond to trolls on Twitter,
I'm sorry about that, but that'swhat you're here for, is, what
about the people who say, okay,but if you're teaching in these
new ways, you're now missing thesubset of students that was
(10:32):
serviced by the old way ofteaching.
Do you think there's anything tothat?
Or do you think it's like, no,the whole point is these new
methods encompass more students?
Kevin Dykema (10:41):
Yeah, I think, I think different methods, it
encompasses all of them.
And we need to, to really makesure that we are paying
attention to the needs of allthe students.
Not just those students who havehistorically been served and not
just those students who aregreat at the sitting and getting
with a variety of differentthings.
I also often think, you know,when you talk to most adults,
(11:03):
most adults, when you ask them,what was your experience with
math?
Do you enjoy math?
Most adults say, I hate math.
I was never good at math.
So that's a great reminder tomyself of, even if I have an, a
parent, a caregiver who'ssaying, Oh, why are you trying
different things?
I can just remind them, Hey, youtold me you hated math.
(11:24):
You told me you're not good atmath.
So what can I do so that yourchild, the person that you're
caring for, does not have thatsame experience.
And I think we need to do abetter job as a math education
community of engaging ourstudents, caregivers, and
recognizing that change looksdifferent.
It's tough for us, but it'stough for a caregiver at home
(11:44):
who's trying to help theirchild, when math is being taught
differently than the way thatthey were taught, and the way
that they absolutely hated.
But that's their knowledge basewith, with that.
And, you know, especially when Ithink about elementary parents
and caregivers, they don't wantto tell their second grader, I
don't know how to do your math.
One of the beautiful thingsabout teaching middle school,
(12:04):
most of my students caregiverswill quickly tell the student, I
don't know how to do this, goask your teacher.
That doesn't happen, though, inthe primary grades.
Instead, it gets to be theparents start to feel agitated
because they feel insecure inhelping their kids with their
homework or help provide some ofthat support at home that's so
necessary at times.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:26):
Okay.
So I actually think that'sreally interesting because I've
noticed the same pattern wherelike, you know, you have all
these adults saying, no, don'tchange math.
But these are also the sameadults who hated math.
And I've always been like, Idon't understand here.
But you bring up a really goodpoint, which is that perhaps
part of the reason is that ifthere's any hope of them helping
(12:47):
their kids with their homework,it needs to be taught in that
traditional way.
But like, what a mess, becausethey hated that traditional way
and they don't even understand.
Like, The other thing I noticedthough is that there are all
these adults weighing in whohave grown kids or like, I don't
even think that's the thing.
Do you think they're just likeresistant to change?
(13:07):
Like what would the resistancebe?
Kevin Dykema (13:10):
Yeah, I think it's a, for some, it's a fear factor.
It's a fear that if matheducation changes That may
affect the way that I've alwaysdone something.
That may affect who's taking myclass, if I'm a professor.
That may be a job security typething for some.
And for some it's just thechange is unsettling, that the
(13:33):
way that the school structurehas always been worked for me,
so people just need to adaptbecause it worked for me.
Not recognizing sometimes that,hey, it worked for me.
My K 12 math education workedfine for me, but if I'm truly
interested in meeting the needsof more students and helping
(13:54):
have a math literate society,reducing the number of people
that freely admit they'rehorrible at math and they hate
math, I've got to be willing tochange and to adapt and to try
different things.
That does not mean that theKevin Dykemas of today are going
to, who would have done well, nomatter what, my needs are still
going to be met if I was astudent, I'm still going to
(14:15):
learn that content.
But now instead of it being arelatively small subset, we can
argue how big of a subset ofstudents it is that needs to
have been met in the past, nowwe're increasing, and we're
having more people recognizingthe value of math, and seeing
that math is useful.
It's not just a subject tomemorize a bunch of procedures,
and then flush once you get tothe test, memorize a new set of
(14:38):
procedures, flush when you getto the test, and then never do
math again.
I want people to recognize thatmath applies to the real world,
that math can be used as alanguage to describe real world
phenomena.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:51):
Oh, you're an inspiration.
You're, you truly are.
And this, this actually reallyleads me though to the next big
question that I have sinceyou're, you know, such a big
part of your life is, isprofessional development and
being in that world.
Like, I've always wondered this,here we are talking about how
teachers need, you know, there'sbeen a quite a drastic shift,
I'd say, in math education overthe past, like, what, how many
(15:13):
years do you think?
Kevin Dykema (15:14):
Five, ten years,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:16):
well, yeah.
Kevin Dykema (15:17):
and it's, yeah, I mean
Vanessa Vakharia (15:19):
Okay, let's say five, ten years.
Kevin Dykema (15:21):
I think there's been a greater focus or a
greater recognition that we'reteaching students.
We're not teaching content.
That in the past, so much of ourprofessional development was on,
how do you teach fractions tostudents?
How do you teach algebra tostudents?
Now, I sense there's a shift of,how do I teach students algebra?
(15:42):
How do I teach studentsfractions?
That's not everywhere, but Ithink there's starting to be a
recognition that, that student Amay have different needs than
student B.
They may have different livedexperiences.
They may have different,different community
environments.
And we need to, to recognizethat, honor that, celebrate
that, and adapt how we've donethings, To better build on the
(16:06):
strengths that every singlestudent brings to the
educational classroom setting.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:11):
Oh my god, this is making me think of 4,
000 questions, but I need tolike just keep my brain on
track.
So, okay.
This is so interesting.
You said this because I'm alsothinking like you said 5, 10
years.
In the history of teaching thatis like a very quick time frame
and I'm even thinking about thisLike I published a book with
Scholastic in 2017.
Okay?
And that book, which I don'ttalk about because I don't want
(16:33):
to get cancelled, I'm kidding,it's still a very useful book,
okay, Scholastic, I love you,but it was called Math Hacks and
the whole point was, it was allabout like, how to teach tricks,
right, like how to teach mathtricks.
And also, alongside that, thereare 40 pages of content about
identity.
So stuff like pep talks forstudents, mental health.
(16:53):
And it was the first math bookpublished basically where you'd
have math content alongsidelike, work around socio
emotional learning.
Sorry, I'm whispering that causeI know we're not allowed to say
that in America.
Anyway, so you'd, so it was likethis whole thing, but it's funny
cause fast forward, what, it'sbeen six years, fast forward to
now, I can't even talk aboutthat book because the idea of a
(17:14):
math trick is like the oppositeof what we're doing.
Like you said, we're trying tolike, Really dig deep into how
students think and emphasize thelearning and all of this stuff.
So that is a very short timespan for me to have published
this book that was like we wereall about it and six years later
we're like no absolutely not.
Which leads me to you're ateacher, like imagine you're a
teacher, a teacher who's beenteaching for six years and
(17:36):
suddenly like the wholelandscape has changed.
You're out of your teachertraining program because it was
six years ago, you've now beenteaching in the classroom, and
now you're expected to teach inthis completely different way.
And this is where I'm like,okay, so what are your options?
Like you, it's, it has to beprofessional development, right?
Like, it's not like you're,you're going back to school.
Kevin Dykema (17:56):
It's got to be sustained professional
development.
It can't be this professionaldevelopment where you have a
speaker come in for an hour andsay here's what you need to do
and then you never have anyfollow up with that.
I mean, I think about a lot ofthe professional development I
received in my career I sit inthe hour session and say, Oh,
what a great idea! I go back tothe four walls of my classroom
and like, what in the world doesthat look like?
(18:18):
How do I, how do, what does thatreally mean in the context of my
eighth grade math classroom?
So I think we need to have thesesustained professional
developments that, you know, youget a new idea.
But here's what it looks like,and oh, let's come back and
let's revisit this idea again infour weeks.
What have you done in themeantime to try out this new
strategy, to try out this newthing?
(18:39):
I think it's also therecognition, you know, you talk
about math tricks.
It's gotta be a recognition thatwhen we used to teach really
promoting math tricks, it wasn'tlike we were trying to be
harmful to our students.
It's just that we have nowlearned better.
We have learned that that's notleading to a generation of
people who are, who are trulyappreciating mathematics.
Right.
(18:59):
I also think part of this moveaway from shift, or the shift
from, you know, really utilizingtricks to get into
understanding, is really becauseof technology.
Technology has evolved to thepoint where students are saying,
why do I need to learn thatstupid trick?
I can just say, hey Siri, how doyou do this?
And Siri will tell it correctly.
(19:20):
Or there's an app calledPhotomath that I'm fairly
positive that no secondaryteacher says, hey kids, go home
and use Photomath.
But our students know about itand they're doing that.
So our students are seeing thisdisconnect when we're trying to
teach math as tricks.
They're like, why?
Technology will do that.
And I think we're starting torecognize that when we've taught
(19:40):
math as tricks, what I thinkwith the message we're really
sending our kids is math is soincredibly difficult to learn.
And in fact, it's so incrediblydifficult that I have to use
tricks in order to help yousucceed and get the correct
answer.
I'd much rather have a studentwho says, Hey Siri, what's the
quadratic formula?
(20:00):
And Siri can spit it back out atthem, but knows what the
quadratic formula is actuallydoing.
I'd much rather have a kid thatsays, Hey Siri, what's the
formula for the area of atriangle, or the area of a
trapezoid, but understands whereit's coming from and how to use
it to answer real worldsituations.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
Oh my God.
Yeah, this is really making methink because, you're totally
right.
And I also wonder, like, we'reso polarized.
I don't know if you know thisstory, but I was on like a
morning television show lastyear and I showed the hosts, you
know, the nine times tabletricks with your hands.
And they like, these are liketwo really math anxious hosts,
(20:43):
like they hate math and theywere so excited.
Like their eyes lit up.
They were like, Oh my God, doesthis work with other numbers?
They were asking greatquestions, right?
Like, does this only work withthe nines?
Like, why does this work?
This and that.
And then we got into like thedivisibility rule and like,
whatever.
And I got so much hate.
Like I had, I would wake up to ahundred messages every day being
(21:04):
like, I can't believe you'reteaching these tricks, like
that's so damaging, like ateacher actually wrote to me and
was like, I used to love yourwork, but like I saw you on TV
doing a math trick and it's, andI was like, okay, let's, can we
just take a minute here?
Like, I get what you're saying,Kevin, right?
Like, I completely get whatyou're saying, and I get the
message that sends.
But is there not a world wherewe teach the knowledge and
(21:25):
understanding, and then we alsohave in our back pocket to reach
the students who just can't getengaged this trick to have them
asking, but why does it work?
Kevin Dykema (21:34):
Yes.
And I think, I think in matheducation, and probably
education in general, you knowyou spoke to it a little bit
ago, it's the polarizations.
Either you're on this end, oryou're on this end, and I would
argue so often, talk to a realclassroom teacher.
Most classroom teachers are noton this end or this end, they're
somewhere in the middle.
They're recognizing when do Iuse this approach?
(21:57):
When do I use this approach?
And I think there's a lot morenuance that's involved than what
a lot of people want to admit.
And I think it comes back tothis notion of there's no one
strategy that's going to workfor every single student.
And if I had that student thatI've tried this repeatedly and
it's not working, maybe I needto try something different to
(22:18):
get them engaged, get themstarting to recognize, all
right, I can do mathematics, Ican start to make sense of that.
And I would argue if we're goingto use some tricks, some
mnemonic devices are great, Imean, there's lots of things out
there, we need to make sure theyunderstand when to use it, how
to use, why to use that andengage them with that and we
(22:40):
can't give them a steady diet ofthat.
We've got to give them a dietthat has a wide range of
different things.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:48):
It's funny because earlier you were like,
yes, the, the way to this forteachers, since most of, you
know, any teacher that's beenteaching for basically over
like, you know, five, 10 yearswas trained in a completely
different way, probably hasdifferent practices.
You said it's professionaldevelopment.
You said it's sustainedprofessional development.
And I have to be honest, Kevin,I don't, I don't know any, any
(23:08):
teachers, I know maybe a few,but I don't know many teachers
who have sustained professionaldevelopment opportunities in
their schools.
Isn't this something that's likereally lacking?
Kevin Dykema (23:17):
Very much so.
Very, very lacking.
And there are some places that,that say they're going to do
that, but in so many differentdistricts, it's sort of a flavor
of the month.
This month, we're going to haveprofessional development on
this.
The next month, somethingcompletely and totally
different.
The next month, somethingcompletely and totally
different.
And as teachers, sometimes wesort of say, Ah, nice idea.
(23:40):
Push it off to the side becausewe know next month, next year,
there's going to be a differentfocus.
Those places that have startedto really say, all right, here's
our focus for the year, here'sour focus for the next two
years, has started to see some,some improvement with that.
And I think so oftenprofessional developers, and I'm
just as guilty of that as othersat times, we think we need to
(24:02):
have this big, new, shinyobject.
We need to have brand newthings.
It's okay to say there wasnothing terribly new in here,
but let's put it in a differentcontext with it.
Let's take what we've known tobe true for many years and let's
just keep reminding ourselves,this is what it looks, give
examples of what it looks likein the classroom.
Allow teachers opportunities toshare their successes, their
(24:25):
challenges with each other asthey're trying out a variety of
different things.
And at the same time,recognizing the world around our
students is changing.
We've got to be willing to adaptto meet the needs of our
students.
The technology that existed whenI started teaching in 1995 looks
tremendously different than thetechnology that now exists in
(24:48):
2024.
I mean, email wasn't even reallya thing when I started teaching.
I was so excited my first year,because our principal got to
select eight teachers to get anemail address from the district.
And I was one of those eightteachers, and I thought it was
all hot stuff.
Well, now we all have emailaddresses.
We have multiple emailaddresses.
But yet, if I'm going to keepteaching the way I started
(25:09):
teaching in 1995, I'm notmeeting my students needs.
I'm not preparing them to be aproductive human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:19):
I'm just like stressed kind of like, I'm
really putting this together inmy head of like, if you didn't
have this consistentprofessional development you're
talking about, there's no realway for teachers to learn the
new things they're supposed tobe doing unless they literally
on their own time go like doresearch and look it up.
And then in my mind, and I knowbecause you're someone who's
(25:40):
really invested in equity, whichI actually want to talk about in
a sec, I'm imagining it costsmoney for these boards to do
this professional development.
And like, like, so then in mymind, I'm like, isn't there such
a lack of equity?
Because the only teachers whoreceive this professional
development from their boardsand schools have to belong to
(26:00):
schools that can afford it.
Am I wrong here?
Kevin Dykema (26:02):
Yeah, I think there's, I think there's lots of
different pots of, of moneywithin school boards, within
school districts to, to providesome professional resources for
their teachers.
And I think when you do havethose, those teachers who are
going out and actively maybeusing their own dollars to, to
read books, to listen to apodcast, go to a webinar, go to
(26:25):
a free virtual conference,there's a lot of things that
don't require travel and don'trequire other things.
But then it's on those teachersthen to share some of those
ideas with their colleagues.
And I think when we have more ofthose peer to peer
conversations, you don't alwaysneed to bring in a so called
expert to help move the needleto meet kids needs.
(26:45):
You've had a classroom teacherwho may have read a book about
math education and shares someof their big key learnings with
some of their colleagues.
And I think that's the directionthat we need to keep moving in
as well.
And then all of a sudden,instead of it just being one
teacher being affected, maybeyou have two teachers who are
being affected.
Then maybe it grows to threeteachers and four teachers.
(27:06):
We have to be willing to sharewith our colleagues and help
them learn right along with us.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:13):
Do you think like that's asking a lot of
teachers?
Like, I'm actually justwondering, like, do you think
this happens in any otherprofession like a bank or
something, a banker, they'reexpected to go out and use their
own resources to learn moreabout how to be a better banker
and then to come back and teachit to the other bankers.
Like, maybe I'm wrong, but like,do you think, do you think this
(27:35):
is unique to
Kevin Dykema (27:36):
Yeah, I don't think it's unique to teaching.
My wife is a social worker andwe had a conversation yesterday
and her social work team,they're currently doing a book
study.
And they went out and bought acopy of the book for those that
want to participate.
They're all reading it on theirown time.
They're having a book clubmeeting outside of work hours
because they just want to growin their own skills and grow in
(27:59):
that.
So I don't think it's abnormalnecessarily.
I do think that that teachersare expected maybe more than
some other professions, but Idon't, I don't ask other
professions, how do they growprofessionally?
So it could be a very normalthing that other professions are
spending some of their owndollars and resources doing
that.
And it's definitely a challenge.
It's definitely, there'sdefinitely inequities involved
(28:22):
with that and, you know, it'd bewonderful if schools were able
to do all of that stuff.
But I keep reminding myself, ifI'm truly answering the needs of
my students, I've got to bewilling to try to do things
differently.
I have to be willing to ask mycolleagues, Hey, what do you
think about this?
What do you think about this?
And start to open up some ofthose collegial conversations.
(28:42):
So that I'm not just teachingthe same way as I have the last
25 years, because it'd be boringto me.
I want to try new ideas.
I don't, I mean, sometimespeople say, how have you taught
A3 that long?
Isn't that boring?
I keep saying no, because it'sdifferent.
If I were to teach you the exactsame thing every single year, I
mean the content doesn't change,but the kids are changing,
(29:03):
society is changing, theinstructional strategies that
I'm trying are changing, and Ithink we need to continually
push ourselves to try new ideas.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:16):
I love it.
I love it.
I think you're right.
And I, it's so true.
Like, especially for yourself.
I mean, in any part of our lifewhen we're not growing, like,
even like, imagine you did thesame routine at the gym every
day.
You'd just be like, I'm bored.
Right?
Like, it's like, you need to,like, variety is the spice of
life, spice of the classroom,whatever.
Um.
You know what, I want to ask youa bit about math trauma.
You know, like you've beenteaching grade eight math for
(29:37):
over 25 years, which is craycray to me, quite frankly, but
very cool for you and very luckyfor your students.
Did you, thinking about, youstarted teaching in the 90s when
we weren't even talking aboutmath anxiety or anything like
Have you seen a shift?
Like, first of all, do you feellike you have always seen signs
(29:57):
of math anxiety in your
Kevin Dykema (29:59):
Oh, without doubt.
Without a doubt.
Now we just have a name for it.
And now as a society werecognize and we value students.
We recognize and value humansmental health.
That we recognize that it's okayif you've got a chemical
imbalance.
It's okay if you've experiencedsome of these things.
Let's work our way through itand, and let's, let's continue
(30:22):
to, to grow as human beings.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:26):
When do you feel that shift happened?
Kevin Dykema (30:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Uh, within the last 10 or soyears, really since the
pandemic, it has, has reallybecome much more, much more
relevant to the human beings asa whole, society as a whole.
Really over the last 10 years,the sort of the shift to, you
know, came back to aconversation earlier that we're
(30:48):
starting to shift from teachingcontent to kids to teaching kids
content.
And I think the same thing is,you know, is we have this focus,
we're recognizing, alright, noteverybody has the same
backgrounds.
Some have anxiety, some haveexperienced trauma in the past.
And we need to recognize thatand honor that.
(31:09):
And not say, oh, here's a kidwho's had math trauma, they're
never going to be good at math.
We need to figure out what canwe do to build their identity?
What can we do to help them seethat they are capable of
learning mathematics?
And not continually do the sametraumatic experiences for them
over and over and over again.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:30):
Well, it's so funny because like, as you know,
I just published a book, MathTherapy, about math trauma, and
I always think about, um, How doI put this?
Like just this idea of like,okay, so now we're at a point
where we all can at least,you're right, because I remember
I did this talk for a bunch ofprofessors in like 2018 and I
was talking about math anxietyand they literally thought I had
(31:51):
like made it up.
And that was only six years ago.
Like they were like, that's nota thing.
So it's like, okay, fine.
So now we can all at least belike, yes, there is an emotional
component to math learning,fine.
But I still find there's, and Iunderstand why, but I want your
take on it.
There's this, still thisprioritization of like, okay,
fine, there's math anxiety, butI really need to focus on how to
(32:12):
teach this content.
And like, you know, the mentalhealth part really needs to take
a back burner.
Whereas like, I think you and Iare kind of like, no, no, no.
Because if you're teaching mathto a kid who literally has shut
down, it doesn't matter how goodyour content is.
Like, it just like, doesn'tmatter.
So like, I'm kind of wonderingwhen, I mean, do you think it's
kind of because some peoplestill don't take mental health
(32:34):
seriously?
Like, what is it?
Like, I find there's a bigdisconnect.
Kevin Dykema (32:39):
I think definitely so.
I think there's also, I meansome of it's that they don't
think it's a real thing.
I think there's also thisfeeling of inadequacy.
My training as an educator wasnot in how do you meet the
health needs of a student.
My training, my professionaldevelopment up until recently
was always on instruction,instruction, instruction, not on
(32:59):
how do you take care of, ofkids.
And I think there's that, that,oh my goodness, I don't know
what to do, so let's just sortof push it off to the side and
we'll let somebody else takecare of that.
But I, doggone it, I know how toteach math, so I'll just keep
teaching math and somebody elsecan take care of the mental
health needs and do that.
(33:19):
And I think it needs to bethrough a collective effort.
We all need to be payingattention to our students lived
experiences.
It can't just be for, for theschool counselor, the school
social worker, we all need toplay a role in doing that.
And, as a consultant, I alsoneed to recognize that isn't my
training.
There are people who have awhole lot more experience, who
(33:41):
have a whole lot more knowledge,and I need to know when do I tap
in to the, to those who havethat professional background and
those professional experiences.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:51):
And that goes back to how we started this, of
you saying it's important toknow what you don't know.
But like, okay, but now, Kevin,I'm like, you're blowing my mind
even more.
And honestly, we actually haveto wrap up, but like, I don't
even want to, because I 40 morequestions.
But like, I haven't even askedyou anything I wanted to ask
you, because I'm so into thisconvo, Because now I'm like,
hold on a second.
If we're kind of like, yeah, nowthere's a Recognization.
Is that a word?
(34:14):
It is,
Kevin Dykema (34:15):
If not, it's now
David Kochberg (34:19):
Recognition.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:21):
if there's a recognition that like, yes, the
mental health of our students isof primary importance in the
classroom, I'm like, okay, buthold on.
Shouldn't we now be includingthat as part of teacher
training?
I, like, I say this because Ibet you there are a lot of
teachers, I know there are a lotof teachers who are like, I
didn't get into this for this,like, I really just wanted to
(34:44):
teach math.
Which, by the way, is completelyfair.
Like, I think it's fair to belike, quite frankly, the reason
I left the classroom was like, Iwas like, I, oh, I don't want to
classroom manage.
That's not what I want to do.
I just wanted to teach math.
But the truth is you have to doboth.
And that's why I left theclassroom because I didn't want
to, I, you know, I wanted toteach math.
And so I went a completelydifferent route.
(35:06):
So I think it's fair forteachers now to be like, but
hold on a second.
I actually have no interest,like, I really just want math
concepts.
And now I'm like, well,shouldn't we then, if we
recognize how important this is,shouldn't we make this a part of
teacher training and a part oflike the qualification to become
a new teacher?
Oh my god, what do you think?
Kevin Dykema (35:22):
Yeah, I think that, I think it probably is, I
think there are colleges ofeducation that are spending a
lot more time focusing in on, onthe student's mental health
issues and student mental healthneeds.
Recognizing that, you know, asyou said, if that kid's in that
shutdown because of whatever isgoing on in their life, they're
not gonna be learning anything.
I get excited sometimes.
I think, all right, from five,ten years ago to now, how much
(35:45):
more part of a conversation isstudents mental health, students
trauma?
How much more is that, than theconversation now?
What's it going to be like infive years?
What's it going to be like inten years, that I think we're on
the cusp of figuring out how dowe better meet the needs of all
of our kids?
And I think sometimes some ofthe naysayers say, Oh, you're
(36:06):
not teaching math.
No, we're still teaching math.
But we're recognizing we'reteaching math to human beings.
And if we're not, if we're nothonoring the experiences of our,
of the human beings within ourclassroom, there's nothing that
I can do to help truly meet theneeds of every single one of
them.
And I need to continually lookat what can I do to better meet
the needs of all of my students.
(36:28):
Not just those students whoaren't experiencing any trauma.
Not just those students who havebeen told their entire life, Oh,
you're great at math.
What am I truly doing to helptry to improve math education
for every single student?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:43):
Like, I just, you're so great.
You're so great.
You're so passionate.
Um, I have to end thisinterview, but I have, I have to
ask three, three questions.
I do have to ask one question.
Okay.
NCTM is like next week.
What is the thing you're mostexcited about for those going to
NCTM?
Like we want a, we want a littlespoiler, you know, like a
Kevin's recommendations.
Kevin Dykema (37:03):
The thing that fills my bucket when I go to
NCTM and to many other matheducation conferences is just
the excitement, the energythat's there.
It's the reconnecting.
It's working with other peoplewho are passionate about meeting
students needs.
And for me, that's always ahighlight.
It's those interactions that Ihave with people.
(37:23):
It's not always necessarily thesessions that I go to, and there
are some dynamite sessions to goto, but it's really about those
interactions, those hallwayconversations, those quick
little sidebar conversations youhave after a session.
That's what I get most excitedfor when I think about going to
NCTM.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:40):
You are such a president because that was like
a politician's you know?
Okay, I'm gonna now ask you thetwo final questions that we
always ask our guests.
Question number one.
What do you say to one of yourcute little grade eight students
who's like, but Kevin, I'm justnot a math person.
Kevin Dykema (37:59):
Yeah.
That's a great question.
And I think in the past we'vejust said, Oh, just tell them if
you're a person, you're a mathperson, but they don't really
believe that.
And I think it's when I havethat kid that says that, I need
to figure out why.
Why do they not see themselvesas a math person?
I need to then find some ofthose things that they are
excelling at with that, findthat student's strength with
(38:22):
that.
And sometimes I even say, allright, hey, let's think back to
when you were a preschooler.
You don't remember being apreschooler.
I certainly was not yourpreschool teacher.
When you were a preschoolteacher, when you had five
objects, And the teacher asked,how many were there?
You had to count one, two,three, four, five.
The teacher shuffled them up andsaid, how many are there?
You didn't know.
You had to count them again.
One, two, three, four, five.
(38:43):
But now, if you see those fiveobjects, you're like, Oh, I know
there's five objects there.
That sometimes, you may thinkyou're not a math person,
because you don't fullyunderstand the content that
we're learning at that hotmoment right there.
But think back to what youlearned three years ago.
You feel confident about many ofthose skills that you have, so
(39:03):
you are a math person.
You may not feel fully confidentin what we're doing right at
this moment, But in three years,you may look back at this and
say, Oh, I don't know why I wasworried about that.
Now I fully understand it.
We've got to continue to pushour kids to get to that
understanding stage.
Because it makes it so much moreenjoyable for them and they
start to see a purpose for it.
And as human beings, I don'twant to do something that I
(39:25):
don't understand.
Our students are going to bethat the same way.
We've got to get them to thatunderstanding and help them
start to appreciate themathematics.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:34):
I love that.
And I have a quote for that,which is, I use this in all
aspects of my life, which isonce upon a time, you wanted
what you have now.
So this idea of like, once upona time, you just wanted to
understand.
something you already understandtoday.
I can't, I need to rephrasethat, but like, that idea, I
really, I really love that.
(39:55):
I do, there's an activity in mybook that I use for this called
I Used to Think and Now I Know.
And it's like, I used to thinkI'd never be able to count to
five, and now I know how.
I used to, and when you, whenyour students make a long enough
list of that, you start beinglike, You You know, like the way
you feel about math now is thesame way you felt two weeks ago
about a different part of math.
(40:15):
I, I really like that.
Um, final question, if there wasone thing you could change about
math education, what would itbe?
Kevin Dykema (40:22):
If there was one thing that I could change, it
would be to increase the amountof student to student discourse.
That there are too manyclassrooms.
My own classroom at times, soI'm just as guilty.
Where the only dialogue isteacher to student, teacher to
student, teacher to student.
I need to get my studentsactively engaged.
When my students are gettingthat student to student discord,
they're more likely to beactively engaged.
(40:44):
They're more likely to be ableto make sense of the
mathematics.
And they're going to begin tohave that increased motivation.
So that's, I mean, if there's,if there's one thing that I
would change, in fact, wave mymagic wand and everybody would,
would be focusing on that, itwould be that student to student
discourse.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:01):
I love it.
No one said that before.
Way to go.
First
Kevin Dykema (41:04):
Hey, awesome.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:06):
This is why you're the president
Kevin Dykema (41:08):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:09):
Kevin, it was amazing having you on the
podcast.
Thank you so much.
I can't wait to hang out at NCTMand join in the celebratory
vibes.
Thanks for being just as greatof a guy as everyone says you
are.
Kevin Dykema (41:21):
Well, thanks very much for the kind words and
thanks for having me on thispodcast and thanks for, for
publishing a great book thathelps us all learn about how can
we better meet the needs of ourstudents.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:33):
I'm going to count that as an official
endorsement.
Kevin Dykema endorses MathTherapy.
Kevin Dykema (41:37):
Yeah!
Vanessa Vakharia (41:38):
Ok.
Bye! Guys.
I have no idea why I didn'tswear that entire time.
Like I'm going to have to unpackthat later.
Like that is very weird for me.
I am still thinking about howKevin said that his job was to
know what he doesn't know.
And I think that's going tostick with me for a long time
and it's just something that weall need a little more of in our
(41:59):
lives.
If by the way, you're going tobe at NCTM, I'm going to be
there in the halls.
I'm doing a little book signing,so you can grab a copy of my
book at the Corwin booth, or youcan order it now at
maththerapy.com and I'mpresenting once solo and another
time with the one and only PeterLiljedahl, I would love to see
you there.
And whether you come to mypresentation or not, I would
(42:21):
just love to meet you and seeyou.
So if you're going to be there,reach out, let me know.
Let's meet up, high five, hug,grab a coffee, whatever.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
(42:43):
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
(43:04):
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
That was so fun!
Kevin Dykema (43:17):
That was a lot of fun, but I will point out, I
don't think you swore once thisentire time.
I was a little disappointed.
I was waiting for it to happen.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:27):
Why the fuck didn't I swear?
you know what?
I'm going to swear in the intro.
Kevin Dykema (43:31):
Oh good!
Vanessa Vakharia (43:31):
In the intro and the outro.
I'm going to make sure I'll makesure there's some profanity in
this podcast because so we canmark it as explicit.
Because don't want to break thatpattern.
And there is, don't worry,there's a ton of swearing in my
book.
It's all like bleeped out, butthere are, there are lots of
swear words with little like,but thank you so much for making
me feel so seen as a human.
Like, I really appreciate that.
(43:52):
And the fact that you noticedthat, that is active listening,
Kevin.
If I want my students to be willing to take
risks and to learn something,I've got to be willing to model
that by taking risks of my own.
There are times that I'll tellmy students, I tried something
new, it flat out didn't work,let's try something different.
And I think as teachers, we needto model that.
And we need to really keep thestudent in the center of mind.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:23):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math
Guru, and you're listening toMath Therapy, a podcast that
explores the root causes of mathtrauma, and the empowering ways
we can heal from it.
Whether you think you're a mathperson or not, you're about to
find out that math people don'tactually exist.
But the scars that math classleft on many of us definitely
do.
Oh, and don't worry, nocalculators or actual math were
(00:46):
involved in the making of thispodcast.
So one of the biggest matheducation conferences ever
happens every single fall andit's happening again in less
than two weeks.
So I thought I would bring on avery special guest who I've
never actually spoken to, buthave always wanted to: Kevin
Dykema, President of theNational Council of Teachers of
(01:08):
Mathematics, aka NCTM.
Honestly, guys, thisconversation took so many twists
and turns.
I didn't even get to ask any ofthe questions I had planned.
We got so deep into why peopleare so resistant to change in
math ed and how challenging itis for teachers to change their
approach to teaching whenthey're currently being expected
to teach in a way they werenever taught or never even
(01:30):
trained to teach.
And obviously we talked about mynew book for two seconds.
It's called Math Therapy andit's full of strategies, tools,
templates, all of this fun stuffto help teachers prevent and
heal math trauma in theirclassrooms.
I'm just so excited, I had tolike throw in this shameless
plug because you can officiallyorder it right now by heading to
www.maththerapy.com.
(01:52):
Also side note, kevin wasactually somewhat disappointed
that I didn't end up uttering asingle swear word during our
interview, despite my warningsthat I am a voracious swearer.
So I thought I would fix thatright now by saying, you guys
are gonna love Kevin, so let'sfucking go.
Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
I have been like a fan of yoursfrom afar, I think for a very
(02:16):
long time, but I don't thinkwe've ever had a conversation in
actual person, but I have tosay, every single time I talk
about you or you come up inconversation, everyone's like,
Oh my God, Kevin, he's thenicest guy, like, uh, and I'm
always like, who is this man ofmystery?
So, so I just want to start bysaying thank you for gracing me
with your presence.
Kevin Dykema (02:36):
Thanks for the invitation.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation today.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:40):
Me too.
Okay.
So in addition to everyonesaying, um, that you're the
greatest guy ever, I've beenstarting to like, wonder why
everyone says that.
And in my mind, I'm like, youknow, everyone who I talk to you
about knows you professionally.
And when someone is so nice andemanating such good vibes, it's
normally because they reallylove what they do.
I kind of wanted to start byasking you, like, how did this
(03:03):
rise to fame begin?
Like, how did you become thepresident of NCTM?
Kevin Dykema (03:07):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (03:08):
How
Kevin Dykema (03:08):
and I hesitate to call it a rise to fame because
there are, there are so manypeople who are so knowledgeable
in the world of mathematicseducation.
So I've been an 8th grade mathteacher my entire life, over 25
years of teaching 8th graders,and I love my 8th graders most
days.
I was heavily involved with theMichigan Council of Teachers of
(03:29):
Mathematics, served on theirboard, served as the, the
conference program chair for sixor seven years.
And then somebody said, heyKevin, would you run for the
NCTM board?
I said sure, so I ran for theboard, didn't think I was gonna
get picked, didn't get elected.
Because when I looked at thelist of who else was the
candidates who was on the board,I mean, these are the rock stars
(03:50):
of math education, these are thewell known people and here I was
a classroom teacher fromSouthwest Michigan.
Much to my surprise, I waselected.
So I served a three year termfrom 2016 to 2019.
And then when there was a roundof nominations for president,
all of a sudden I startedgetting emails and texts from a
variety of different peoplesaying, Hey Kevin, we think it's
(04:11):
time for a classroom teacher tobecome president of NCTM, and we
think you're the person for it.
I don't think it was a concertedeffort because I don't know how
these people knew each other, soI think it truly was just a
conglomeration of differentpeople.
I had the, the, the impostersyndrome.
I thought there was no way.
I don't have a PhD, I'm notintelligent enough, I don't know
(04:32):
enough about all the differentareas of math education to be
able to speak intelligently.
I had a wonderful conversationwith somebody with a PhD and I
shared that and she said,welcome to my life.
When I talk to somebody who alsowas a PhD, their specialty is
something different than myspecialty.
I can't talk about theirspecialty as knowledgeable as
they can.
(04:54):
And she said, really the role ofpresident is just to know what
you don't know and seek outpeople who, who do know better.
And I've been so fortunate thatover these past two years,
anytime I've reached out toanybody, they've all said, sure,
I'll give you a half hour of mytime and help educate you with,
with a variety of differentthings.
(05:16):
So this presidency has probablybeen the greatest professional
development for me.
I have learned so much aboutmath education, learned so much
about humanity and been able tomeet so many wonderful people
such as yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:29):
Oh my God.
This, this is why people sayyou're the nicest guy ever.
But like so many things, youknow, you just said something so
interesting, you said, I lovewhat this person said to you,
that the role of president is toknow what you don't know.
And I actually want to pause onthat for a second because I feel
like, I mean, and this for suretouches on the imposter syndrome
(05:49):
I experience sometimes, that youfeel like if you, you know, and
that, you know what, in fact,we're going to get right into it
because this is a podcast aboutmath trauma.
And I feel like so many teachersthemselves experience math
anxiety because they think ifthey don't know everything, they
can't possibly get up in frontof the room and try a new
strategy and teach something.
And I also, you know, so Iactually want to hear a little
(06:10):
more about that, that idea ofyour role is to know what you
don't know.
How do you navigate that withlike that feeling that like, you
should know more than you do.
Kevin Dykema (06:21):
Yeah, and it's a daily battle.
It's something that I constantlyget there, and anytime I get a
media request, I have, oh, thereare so many people who are much
better equipped to talk to thisreporter about this topic.
And that just means, hey, I needto make sure that I know what's
going on.
I need to make sure I'mcommunicating with a variety of
(06:42):
different people who have thatarea and reaffirm what I think I
know.
And a lot of times when I'm,when I'm thinking about a
president's message that I'mwriting, thinking about a media
request, thinking about apresentation I have to give, you
know, I come up with my list oftalking points.
Here's what I think about this.
And then run it past somebodywho has more expertise in that
(07:03):
area.
And then they say, Hey, yep,looks good.
Or maybe you should have addedthis little bit to it as well.
So it's been a wonderfulexperience.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
What would you say to a math teacher who
experiences that same kind ofthing, right?
Like, who's kind of like, well,I kind of am worried about
teaching this new concept.
This kind of actually, to me,goes into a big question I have
about professional developmentthat I'll probably get to later,
but I'll just touch on itquickly now, which is that
because of the way matheducation is moving right now,
(07:34):
so many teachers are expected toteach in a way they weren't
taught, right?
Like they haven't experiencedthat form of teaching
themselves.
They weren't necessarily trainedin like their teacher program to
teach that way.
So they learn all these likeincredible strategies during a
one hour PD and they feel likethat combined with their own
anxiety they might have aroundmath makes them unprepared to go
(07:56):
try those in the classroom.
What, what kind of advice do youhave for them on that?
Kevin Dykema (08:03):
Yeah.
So I think the advice that I'dhave is the same advice I give
myself all the time.
If I want my students to bewilling to take risks and to
learn something, I've got to bewilling to model that by taking
risks of on my own.
There are times that I'll tellmy students, you know what, I
tried something new, it flat outdidn't work, let's try something
(08:24):
different.
Let's not just keep doing thatsame thing over and over and
over again.
And I think as teachers, we needto model that.
And we need to really keep thestudent in the center of mind.
I know that if I teach the waythat I was taught, I'll reach a
subset of students.
And that's fantastic.
But if I'm truly interested inmeeting the needs of all of my
(08:45):
students, I have to be willingto try different things.
I need to continually remindmyself, what works for student A
is not going to work for studentB, is not going to work for
student C.
There is no one thing that everysingle student is going to
connect with and every singlestrategy or some strategy that
every single student is going tobe like, Oh, this is exactly
what I need.
(09:05):
I think our job as educators, isto be willing to try a variety
of different things, if we'retruly interested in meeting the
needs of all of our students.
And I think so often we say, Ohyeah, we want to meet all of our
students needs.
But it's one thing to say it.
It's another thing to show itwith our actions and being
willing to try different things.
And it's tough.
It's tough when I try somethingnew that's a little out of my
(09:28):
comfort zone.
And I've got to remind myself,it's okay if it didn't work
smoothly the first time.
It's okay if it didn't work assmoothly the second time.
Change takes a little bit.
By about the third or fourthtime I've tried something, I
start to get a better sense.
Is this going to meet studentsneeds?
Is it not going to meet studentsneeds?
Vanessa Vakharia (09:47):
You're making me think of a bit of a juicy
question, this is a bitcontroversial, but I'm thinking
what you said at the beginning.
Like you said, I know if I teachthe way I was taught, I'll reach
a certain subset of students,but I want to reach, you know,
everyone.
But at the same time, there's noone way to meet everyone's
needs.
I mean, We know that there are alot of people who are just kind
(10:09):
of like, all of this new stuffis garbage, just stick to the
way it was already done.
And one of the arguments I hear,and I never know how to respond,
so now I'm just asking you howto respond to trolls on Twitter,
I'm sorry about that, but that'swhat you're here for, is, what
about the people who say, okay,but if you're teaching in these
new ways, you're now missing thesubset of students that was
(10:32):
serviced by the old way ofteaching.
Do you think there's anything tothat?
Or do you think it's like, no,the whole point is these new
methods encompass more students?
Kevin Dykema (10:41):
Yeah, I think, I think different methods, it
encompasses all of them.
And we need to, to really makesure that we are paying
attention to the needs of allthe students.
Not just those students who havehistorically been served and not
just those students who aregreat at the sitting and getting
with a variety of differentthings.
I also often think, you know,when you talk to most adults,
(11:03):
most adults, when you ask them,what was your experience with
math?
Do you enjoy math?
Most adults say, I hate math.
I was never good at math.
So that's a great reminder tomyself of, even if I have an, a
parent, a caregiver who'ssaying, Oh, why are you trying
different things?
I can just remind them, Hey, youtold me you hated math.
(11:24):
You told me you're not good atmath.
So what can I do so that yourchild, the person that you're
caring for, does not have thatsame experience.
And I think we need to do abetter job as a math education
community of engaging ourstudents, caregivers, and
recognizing that change looksdifferent.
It's tough for us, but it'stough for a caregiver at home
(11:44):
who's trying to help theirchild, when math is being taught
differently than the way thatthey were taught, and the way
that they absolutely hated.
But that's their knowledge basewith, with that.
And, you know, especially when Ithink about elementary parents
and caregivers, they don't wantto tell their second grader, I
don't know how to do your math.
One of the beautiful thingsabout teaching middle school,
(12:04):
most of my students caregiverswill quickly tell the student, I
don't know how to do this, goask your teacher.
That doesn't happen, though, inthe primary grades.
Instead, it gets to be theparents start to feel agitated
because they feel insecure inhelping their kids with their
homework or help provide some ofthat support at home that's so
necessary at times.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:26):
Okay.
So I actually think that'sreally interesting because I've
noticed the same pattern wherelike, you know, you have all
these adults saying, no, don'tchange math.
But these are also the sameadults who hated math.
And I've always been like, Idon't understand here.
But you bring up a really goodpoint, which is that perhaps
part of the reason is that ifthere's any hope of them helping
(12:47):
their kids with their homework,it needs to be taught in that
traditional way.
But like, what a mess, becausethey hated that traditional way
and they don't even understand.
Like, The other thing I noticedthough is that there are all
these adults weighing in whohave grown kids or like, I don't
even think that's the thing.
Do you think they're just likeresistant to change?
(13:07):
Like what would the resistancebe?
Kevin Dykema (13:10):
Yeah, I think it's a, for some, it's a fear factor.
It's a fear that if matheducation changes That may
affect the way that I've alwaysdone something.
That may affect who's taking myclass, if I'm a professor.
That may be a job security typething for some.
And for some it's just thechange is unsettling, that the
(13:33):
way that the school structurehas always been worked for me,
so people just need to adaptbecause it worked for me.
Not recognizing sometimes that,hey, it worked for me.
My K 12 math education workedfine for me, but if I'm truly
interested in meeting the needsof more students and helping
(13:54):
have a math literate society,reducing the number of people
that freely admit they'rehorrible at math and they hate
math, I've got to be willing tochange and to adapt and to try
different things.
That does not mean that theKevin Dykemas of today are going
to, who would have done well, nomatter what, my needs are still
going to be met if I was astudent, I'm still going to
(14:15):
learn that content.
But now instead of it being arelatively small subset, we can
argue how big of a subset ofstudents it is that needs to
have been met in the past, nowwe're increasing, and we're
having more people recognizingthe value of math, and seeing
that math is useful.
It's not just a subject tomemorize a bunch of procedures,
and then flush once you get tothe test, memorize a new set of
(14:38):
procedures, flush when you getto the test, and then never do
math again.
I want people to recognize thatmath applies to the real world,
that math can be used as alanguage to describe real world
phenomena.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:51):
Oh, you're an inspiration.
You're, you truly are.
And this, this actually reallyleads me though to the next big
question that I have sinceyou're, you know, such a big
part of your life is, isprofessional development and
being in that world.
Like, I've always wondered this,here we are talking about how
teachers need, you know, there'sbeen a quite a drastic shift,
I'd say, in math education overthe past, like, what, how many
(15:13):
years do you think?
Kevin Dykema (15:14):
Five, ten years,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:16):
well, yeah.
Kevin Dykema (15:17):
and it's, yeah, I mean
Vanessa Vakharia (15:19):
Okay, let's say five, ten years.
Kevin Dykema (15:21):
I think there's been a greater focus or a
greater recognition that we'reteaching students.
We're not teaching content.
That in the past, so much of ourprofessional development was on,
how do you teach fractions tostudents?
How do you teach algebra tostudents?
Now, I sense there's a shift of,how do I teach students algebra?
(15:42):
How do I teach studentsfractions?
That's not everywhere, but Ithink there's starting to be a
recognition that, that student Amay have different needs than
student B.
They may have different livedexperiences.
They may have different,different community
environments.
And we need to, to recognizethat, honor that, celebrate
that, and adapt how we've donethings, To better build on the
(16:06):
strengths that every singlestudent brings to the
educational classroom setting.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:11):
Oh my god, this is making me think of 4,
000 questions, but I need tolike just keep my brain on
track.
So, okay.
This is so interesting.
You said this because I'm alsothinking like you said 5, 10
years.
In the history of teaching thatis like a very quick time frame
and I'm even thinking about thisLike I published a book with
Scholastic in 2017.
Okay?
And that book, which I don'ttalk about because I don't want
(16:33):
to get cancelled, I'm kidding,it's still a very useful book,
okay, Scholastic, I love you,but it was called Math Hacks and
the whole point was, it was allabout like, how to teach tricks,
right, like how to teach mathtricks.
And also, alongside that, thereare 40 pages of content about
identity.
So stuff like pep talks forstudents, mental health.
(16:53):
And it was the first math bookpublished basically where you'd
have math content alongsidelike, work around socio
emotional learning.
Sorry, I'm whispering that causeI know we're not allowed to say
that in America.
Anyway, so you'd, so it was likethis whole thing, but it's funny
cause fast forward, what, it'sbeen six years, fast forward to
now, I can't even talk aboutthat book because the idea of a
(17:14):
math trick is like the oppositeof what we're doing.
Like you said, we're trying tolike, Really dig deep into how
students think and emphasize thelearning and all of this stuff.
So that is a very short timespan for me to have published
this book that was like we wereall about it and six years later
we're like no absolutely not.
Which leads me to you're ateacher, like imagine you're a
teacher, a teacher who's beenteaching for six years and
(17:36):
suddenly like the wholelandscape has changed.
You're out of your teachertraining program because it was
six years ago, you've now beenteaching in the classroom, and
now you're expected to teach inthis completely different way.
And this is where I'm like,okay, so what are your options?
Like you, it's, it has to beprofessional development, right?
Like, it's not like you're,you're going back to school.
Kevin Dykema (17:56):
It's got to be sustained professional
development.
It can't be this professionaldevelopment where you have a
speaker come in for an hour andsay here's what you need to do
and then you never have anyfollow up with that.
I mean, I think about a lot ofthe professional development I
received in my career I sit inthe hour session and say, Oh,
what a great idea! I go back tothe four walls of my classroom
and like, what in the world doesthat look like?
(18:18):
How do I, how do, what does thatreally mean in the context of my
eighth grade math classroom?
So I think we need to have thesesustained professional
developments that, you know, youget a new idea.
But here's what it looks like,and oh, let's come back and
let's revisit this idea again infour weeks.
What have you done in themeantime to try out this new
strategy, to try out this newthing?
(18:39):
I think it's also therecognition, you know, you talk
about math tricks.
It's gotta be a recognition thatwhen we used to teach really
promoting math tricks, it wasn'tlike we were trying to be
harmful to our students.
It's just that we have nowlearned better.
We have learned that that's notleading to a generation of
people who are, who are trulyappreciating mathematics.
Right.
(18:59):
I also think part of this moveaway from shift, or the shift
from, you know, really utilizingtricks to get into
understanding, is really becauseof technology.
Technology has evolved to thepoint where students are saying,
why do I need to learn thatstupid trick?
I can just say, hey Siri, how doyou do this?
And Siri will tell it correctly.
(19:20):
Or there's an app calledPhotomath that I'm fairly
positive that no secondaryteacher says, hey kids, go home
and use Photomath.
But our students know about itand they're doing that.
So our students are seeing thisdisconnect when we're trying to
teach math as tricks.
They're like, why?
Technology will do that.
And I think we're starting torecognize that when we've taught
(19:40):
math as tricks, what I thinkwith the message we're really
sending our kids is math is soincredibly difficult to learn.
And in fact, it's so incrediblydifficult that I have to use
tricks in order to help yousucceed and get the correct
answer.
I'd much rather have a studentwho says, Hey Siri, what's the
quadratic formula?
(20:00):
And Siri can spit it back out atthem, but knows what the
quadratic formula is actuallydoing.
I'd much rather have a kid thatsays, Hey Siri, what's the
formula for the area of atriangle, or the area of a
trapezoid, but understands whereit's coming from and how to use
it to answer real worldsituations.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:20):
Oh my God.
Yeah, this is really making methink because, you're totally
right.
And I also wonder, like, we'reso polarized.
I don't know if you know thisstory, but I was on like a
morning television show lastyear and I showed the hosts, you
know, the nine times tabletricks with your hands.
And they like, these are liketwo really math anxious hosts,
(20:43):
like they hate math and theywere so excited.
Like their eyes lit up.
They were like, Oh my God, doesthis work with other numbers?
They were asking greatquestions, right?
Like, does this only work withthe nines?
Like, why does this work?
This and that.
And then we got into like thedivisibility rule and like,
whatever.
And I got so much hate.
Like I had, I would wake up to ahundred messages every day being
(21:04):
like, I can't believe you'reteaching these tricks, like
that's so damaging, like ateacher actually wrote to me and
was like, I used to love yourwork, but like I saw you on TV
doing a math trick and it's, andI was like, okay, let's, can we
just take a minute here?
Like, I get what you're saying,Kevin, right?
Like, I completely get whatyou're saying, and I get the
message that sends.
But is there not a world wherewe teach the knowledge and
(21:25):
understanding, and then we alsohave in our back pocket to reach
the students who just can't getengaged this trick to have them
asking, but why does it work?
Kevin Dykema (21:34):
Yes.
And I think, I think in matheducation, and probably
education in general, you knowyou spoke to it a little bit
ago, it's the polarizations.
Either you're on this end, oryou're on this end, and I would
argue so often, talk to a realclassroom teacher.
Most classroom teachers are noton this end or this end, they're
somewhere in the middle.
They're recognizing when do Iuse this approach?
(21:57):
When do I use this approach?
And I think there's a lot morenuance that's involved than what
a lot of people want to admit.
And I think it comes back tothis notion of there's no one
strategy that's going to workfor every single student.
And if I had that student thatI've tried this repeatedly and
it's not working, maybe I needto try something different to
(22:18):
get them engaged, get themstarting to recognize, all
right, I can do mathematics, Ican start to make sense of that.
And I would argue if we're goingto use some tricks, some
mnemonic devices are great, Imean, there's lots of things out
there, we need to make sure theyunderstand when to use it, how
to use, why to use that andengage them with that and we
(22:40):
can't give them a steady diet ofthat.
We've got to give them a dietthat has a wide range of
different things.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:48):
It's funny because earlier you were like,
yes, the, the way to this forteachers, since most of, you
know, any teacher that's beenteaching for basically over
like, you know, five, 10 yearswas trained in a completely
different way, probably hasdifferent practices.
You said it's professionaldevelopment.
You said it's sustainedprofessional development.
And I have to be honest, Kevin,I don't, I don't know any, any
(23:08):
teachers, I know maybe a few,but I don't know many teachers
who have sustained professionaldevelopment opportunities in
their schools.
Isn't this something that's likereally lacking?
Kevin Dykema (23:17):
Very much so.
Very, very lacking.
And there are some places that,that say they're going to do
that, but in so many differentdistricts, it's sort of a flavor
of the month.
This month, we're going to haveprofessional development on
this.
The next month, somethingcompletely and totally
different.
The next month, somethingcompletely and totally
different.
And as teachers, sometimes wesort of say, Ah, nice idea.
(23:40):
Push it off to the side becausewe know next month, next year,
there's going to be a differentfocus.
Those places that have startedto really say, all right, here's
our focus for the year, here'sour focus for the next two
years, has started to see some,some improvement with that.
And I think so oftenprofessional developers, and I'm
just as guilty of that as othersat times, we think we need to
(24:02):
have this big, new, shinyobject.
We need to have brand newthings.
It's okay to say there wasnothing terribly new in here,
but let's put it in a differentcontext with it.
Let's take what we've known tobe true for many years and let's
just keep reminding ourselves,this is what it looks, give
examples of what it looks likein the classroom.
Allow teachers opportunities toshare their successes, their
(24:25):
challenges with each other asthey're trying out a variety of
different things.
And at the same time,recognizing the world around our
students is changing.
We've got to be willing to adaptto meet the needs of our
students.
The technology that existed whenI started teaching in 1995 looks
tremendously different than thetechnology that now exists in
(24:48):
2024.
I mean, email wasn't even reallya thing when I started teaching.
I was so excited my first year,because our principal got to
select eight teachers to get anemail address from the district.
And I was one of those eightteachers, and I thought it was
all hot stuff.
Well, now we all have emailaddresses.
We have multiple emailaddresses.
But yet, if I'm going to keepteaching the way I started
(25:09):
teaching in 1995, I'm notmeeting my students needs.
I'm not preparing them to be aproductive human being.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:19):
I'm just like stressed kind of like, I'm
really putting this together inmy head of like, if you didn't
have this consistentprofessional development you're
talking about, there's no realway for teachers to learn the
new things they're supposed tobe doing unless they literally
on their own time go like doresearch and look it up.
And then in my mind, and I knowbecause you're someone who's
(25:40):
really invested in equity, whichI actually want to talk about in
a sec, I'm imagining it costsmoney for these boards to do
this professional development.
And like, like, so then in mymind, I'm like, isn't there such
a lack of equity?
Because the only teachers whoreceive this professional
development from their boardsand schools have to belong to
(26:00):
schools that can afford it.
Am I wrong here?
Kevin Dykema (26:02):
Yeah, I think there's, I think there's lots of
different pots of, of moneywithin school boards, within
school districts to, to providesome professional resources for
their teachers.
And I think when you do havethose, those teachers who are
going out and actively maybeusing their own dollars to, to
read books, to listen to apodcast, go to a webinar, go to
(26:25):
a free virtual conference,there's a lot of things that
don't require travel and don'trequire other things.
But then it's on those teachersthen to share some of those
ideas with their colleagues.
And I think when we have more ofthose peer to peer
conversations, you don't alwaysneed to bring in a so called
expert to help move the needleto meet kids needs.
(26:45):
You've had a classroom teacherwho may have read a book about
math education and shares someof their big key learnings with
some of their colleagues.
And I think that's the directionthat we need to keep moving in
as well.
And then all of a sudden,instead of it just being one
teacher being affected, maybeyou have two teachers who are
being affected.
Then maybe it grows to threeteachers and four teachers.
(27:06):
We have to be willing to sharewith our colleagues and help
them learn right along with us.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:13):
Do you think like that's asking a lot of
teachers?
Like, I'm actually justwondering, like, do you think
this happens in any otherprofession like a bank or
something, a banker, they'reexpected to go out and use their
own resources to learn moreabout how to be a better banker
and then to come back and teachit to the other bankers.
Like, maybe I'm wrong, but like,do you think, do you think this
(27:35):
is unique to
Kevin Dykema (27:36):
Yeah, I don't think it's unique to teaching.
My wife is a social worker andwe had a conversation yesterday
and her social work team,they're currently doing a book
study.
And they went out and bought acopy of the book for those that
want to participate.
They're all reading it on theirown time.
They're having a book clubmeeting outside of work hours
because they just want to growin their own skills and grow in
(27:59):
that.
So I don't think it's abnormalnecessarily.
I do think that that teachersare expected maybe more than
some other professions, but Idon't, I don't ask other
professions, how do they growprofessionally?
So it could be a very normalthing that other professions are
spending some of their owndollars and resources doing
that.
And it's definitely a challenge.
It's definitely, there'sdefinitely inequities involved
(28:22):
with that and, you know, it'd bewonderful if schools were able
to do all of that stuff.
But I keep reminding myself, ifI'm truly answering the needs of
my students, I've got to bewilling to try to do things
differently.
I have to be willing to ask mycolleagues, Hey, what do you
think about this?
What do you think about this?
And start to open up some ofthose collegial conversations.
(28:42):
So that I'm not just teachingthe same way as I have the last
25 years, because it'd be boringto me.
I want to try new ideas.
I don't, I mean, sometimespeople say, how have you taught
A3 that long?
Isn't that boring?
I keep saying no, because it'sdifferent.
If I were to teach you the exactsame thing every single year, I
mean the content doesn't change,but the kids are changing,
(29:03):
society is changing, theinstructional strategies that
I'm trying are changing, and Ithink we need to continually
push ourselves to try new ideas.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:16):
I love it.
I love it.
I think you're right.
And I, it's so true.
Like, especially for yourself.
I mean, in any part of our lifewhen we're not growing, like,
even like, imagine you did thesame routine at the gym every
day.
You'd just be like, I'm bored.
Right?
Like, it's like, you need to,like, variety is the spice of
life, spice of the classroom,whatever.
Um.
You know what, I want to ask youa bit about math trauma.
You know, like you've beenteaching grade eight math for
(29:37):
over 25 years, which is craycray to me, quite frankly, but
very cool for you and very luckyfor your students.
Did you, thinking about, youstarted teaching in the 90s when
we weren't even talking aboutmath anxiety or anything like
Have you seen a shift?
Like, first of all, do you feellike you have always seen signs
(29:57):
of math anxiety in your
Kevin Dykema (29:59):
Oh, without doubt.
Without a doubt.
Now we just have a name for it.
And now as a society werecognize and we value students.
We recognize and value humansmental health.
That we recognize that it's okayif you've got a chemical
imbalance.
It's okay if you've experiencedsome of these things.
Let's work our way through itand, and let's, let's continue
(30:22):
to, to grow as human beings.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:26):
When do you feel that shift happened?
Kevin Dykema (30:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Uh, within the last 10 or soyears, really since the
pandemic, it has, has reallybecome much more, much more
relevant to the human beings asa whole, society as a whole.
Really over the last 10 years,the sort of the shift to, you
know, came back to aconversation earlier that we're
(30:48):
starting to shift from teachingcontent to kids to teaching kids
content.
And I think the same thing is,you know, is we have this focus,
we're recognizing, alright, noteverybody has the same
backgrounds.
Some have anxiety, some haveexperienced trauma in the past.
And we need to recognize thatand honor that.
(31:09):
And not say, oh, here's a kidwho's had math trauma, they're
never going to be good at math.
We need to figure out what canwe do to build their identity?
What can we do to help them seethat they are capable of
learning mathematics?
And not continually do the sametraumatic experiences for them
over and over and over again.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:30):
Well, it's so funny because like, as you know,
I just published a book, MathTherapy, about math trauma, and
I always think about, um, How doI put this?
Like just this idea of like,okay, so now we're at a point
where we all can at least,you're right, because I remember
I did this talk for a bunch ofprofessors in like 2018 and I
was talking about math anxietyand they literally thought I had
(31:51):
like made it up.
And that was only six years ago.
Like they were like, that's nota thing.
So it's like, okay, fine.
So now we can all at least belike, yes, there is an emotional
component to math learning,fine.
But I still find there's, and Iunderstand why, but I want your
take on it.
There's this, still thisprioritization of like, okay,
fine, there's math anxiety, butI really need to focus on how to
(32:12):
teach this content.
And like, you know, the mentalhealth part really needs to take
a back burner.
Whereas like, I think you and Iare kind of like, no, no, no.
Because if you're teaching mathto a kid who literally has shut
down, it doesn't matter how goodyour content is.
Like, it just like, doesn'tmatter.
So like, I'm kind of wonderingwhen, I mean, do you think it's
kind of because some peoplestill don't take mental health
(32:34):
seriously?
Like, what is it?
Like, I find there's a bigdisconnect.
Kevin Dykema (32:39):
I think definitely so.
I think there's also, I meansome of it's that they don't
think it's a real thing.
I think there's also thisfeeling of inadequacy.
My training as an educator wasnot in how do you meet the
health needs of a student.
My training, my professionaldevelopment up until recently
was always on instruction,instruction, instruction, not on
(32:59):
how do you take care of, ofkids.
And I think there's that, that,oh my goodness, I don't know
what to do, so let's just sortof push it off to the side and
we'll let somebody else takecare of that.
But I, doggone it, I know how toteach math, so I'll just keep
teaching math and somebody elsecan take care of the mental
health needs and do that.
(33:19):
And I think it needs to bethrough a collective effort.
We all need to be payingattention to our students lived
experiences.
It can't just be for, for theschool counselor, the school
social worker, we all need toplay a role in doing that.
And, as a consultant, I alsoneed to recognize that isn't my
training.
There are people who have awhole lot more experience, who
(33:41):
have a whole lot more knowledge,and I need to know when do I tap
in to the, to those who havethat professional background and
those professional experiences.
Vanessa Vakharia (33:51):
And that goes back to how we started this, of
you saying it's important toknow what you don't know.
But like, okay, but now, Kevin,I'm like, you're blowing my mind
even more.
And honestly, we actually haveto wrap up, but like, I don't
even want to, because I 40 morequestions.
But like, I haven't even askedyou anything I wanted to ask
you, because I'm so into thisconvo, Because now I'm like,
hold on a second.
If we're kind of like, yeah, nowthere's a Recognization.
Is that a word?
(34:14):
It is,
Kevin Dykema (34:15):
If not, it's now
David Kochberg (34:19):
Recognition.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:21):
if there's a recognition that like, yes, the
mental health of our students isof primary importance in the
classroom, I'm like, okay, buthold on.
Shouldn't we now be includingthat as part of teacher
training?
I, like, I say this because Ibet you there are a lot of
teachers, I know there are a lotof teachers who are like, I
didn't get into this for this,like, I really just wanted to
(34:44):
teach math.
Which, by the way, is completelyfair.
Like, I think it's fair to belike, quite frankly, the reason
I left the classroom was like, Iwas like, I, oh, I don't want to
classroom manage.
That's not what I want to do.
I just wanted to teach math.
But the truth is you have to doboth.
And that's why I left theclassroom because I didn't want
to, I, you know, I wanted toteach math.
And so I went a completelydifferent route.
(35:06):
So I think it's fair forteachers now to be like, but
hold on a second.
I actually have no interest,like, I really just want math
concepts.
And now I'm like, well,shouldn't we then, if we
recognize how important this is,shouldn't we make this a part of
teacher training and a part oflike the qualification to become
a new teacher?
Oh my god, what do you think?
Kevin Dykema (35:22):
Yeah, I think that, I think it probably is, I
think there are colleges ofeducation that are spending a
lot more time focusing in on, onthe student's mental health
issues and student mental healthneeds.
Recognizing that, you know, asyou said, if that kid's in that
shutdown because of whatever isgoing on in their life, they're
not gonna be learning anything.
I get excited sometimes.
I think, all right, from five,ten years ago to now, how much
(35:45):
more part of a conversation isstudents mental health, students
trauma?
How much more is that, than theconversation now?
What's it going to be like infive years?
What's it going to be like inten years, that I think we're on
the cusp of figuring out how dowe better meet the needs of all
of our kids?
And I think sometimes some ofthe naysayers say, Oh, you're
(36:06):
not teaching math.
No, we're still teaching math.
But we're recognizing we'reteaching math to human beings.
And if we're not, if we're nothonoring the experiences of our,
of the human beings within ourclassroom, there's nothing that
I can do to help truly meet theneeds of every single one of
them.
And I need to continually lookat what can I do to better meet
the needs of all of my students.
(36:28):
Not just those students whoaren't experiencing any trauma.
Not just those students who havebeen told their entire life, Oh,
you're great at math.
What am I truly doing to helptry to improve math education
for every single student?
Vanessa Vakharia (36:43):
Like, I just, you're so great.
You're so great.
You're so passionate.
Um, I have to end thisinterview, but I have, I have to
ask three, three questions.
I do have to ask one question.
Okay.
NCTM is like next week.
What is the thing you're mostexcited about for those going to
NCTM?
Like we want a, we want a littlespoiler, you know, like a
Kevin's recommendations.
Kevin Dykema (37:03):
The thing that fills my bucket when I go to
NCTM and to many other matheducation conferences is just
the excitement, the energythat's there.
It's the reconnecting.
It's working with other peoplewho are passionate about meeting
students needs.
And for me, that's always ahighlight.
It's those interactions that Ihave with people.
(37:23):
It's not always necessarily thesessions that I go to, and there
are some dynamite sessions to goto, but it's really about those
interactions, those hallwayconversations, those quick
little sidebar conversations youhave after a session.
That's what I get most excitedfor when I think about going to
NCTM.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:40):
You are such a president because that was like
a politician's you know?
Okay, I'm gonna now ask you thetwo final questions that we
always ask our guests.
Question number one.
What do you say to one of yourcute little grade eight students
who's like, but Kevin, I'm justnot a math person.
Kevin Dykema (37:59):
Yeah.
That's a great question.
And I think in the past we'vejust said, Oh, just tell them if
you're a person, you're a mathperson, but they don't really
believe that.
And I think it's when I havethat kid that says that, I need
to figure out why.
Why do they not see themselvesas a math person?
I need to then find some ofthose things that they are
excelling at with that, findthat student's strength with
(38:22):
that.
And sometimes I even say, allright, hey, let's think back to
when you were a preschooler.
You don't remember being apreschooler.
I certainly was not yourpreschool teacher.
When you were a preschoolteacher, when you had five
objects, And the teacher asked,how many were there?
You had to count one, two,three, four, five.
The teacher shuffled them up andsaid, how many are there?
You didn't know.
You had to count them again.
One, two, three, four, five.
(38:43):
But now, if you see those fiveobjects, you're like, Oh, I know
there's five objects there.
That sometimes, you may thinkyou're not a math person,
because you don't fullyunderstand the content that
we're learning at that hotmoment right there.
But think back to what youlearned three years ago.
You feel confident about many ofthose skills that you have, so
(39:03):
you are a math person.
You may not feel fully confidentin what we're doing right at
this moment, But in three years,you may look back at this and
say, Oh, I don't know why I wasworried about that.
Now I fully understand it.
We've got to continue to pushour kids to get to that
understanding stage.
Because it makes it so much moreenjoyable for them and they
start to see a purpose for it.
And as human beings, I don'twant to do something that I
(39:25):
don't understand.
Our students are going to bethat the same way.
We've got to get them to thatunderstanding and help them
start to appreciate themathematics.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:34):
I love that.
And I have a quote for that,which is, I use this in all
aspects of my life, which isonce upon a time, you wanted
what you have now.
So this idea of like, once upona time, you just wanted to
understand.
something you already understandtoday.
I can't, I need to rephrasethat, but like, that idea, I
really, I really love that.
(39:55):
I do, there's an activity in mybook that I use for this called
I Used to Think and Now I Know.
And it's like, I used to thinkI'd never be able to count to
five, and now I know how.
I used to, and when you, whenyour students make a long enough
list of that, you start beinglike, You You know, like the way
you feel about math now is thesame way you felt two weeks ago
about a different part of math.
(40:15):
I, I really like that.
Um, final question, if there wasone thing you could change about
math education, what would itbe?
Kevin Dykema (40:22):
If there was one thing that I could change, it
would be to increase the amountof student to student discourse.
That there are too manyclassrooms.
My own classroom at times, soI'm just as guilty.
Where the only dialogue isteacher to student, teacher to
student, teacher to student.
I need to get my studentsactively engaged.
When my students are gettingthat student to student discord,
they're more likely to beactively engaged.
(40:44):
They're more likely to be ableto make sense of the
mathematics.
And they're going to begin tohave that increased motivation.
So that's, I mean, if there's,if there's one thing that I
would change, in fact, wave mymagic wand and everybody would,
would be focusing on that, itwould be that student to student
discourse.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:01):
I love it.
No one said that before.
Way to go.
First
Kevin Dykema (41:04):
Hey, awesome.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:06):
This is why you're the president
Kevin Dykema (41:08):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:09):
Kevin, it was amazing having you on the
podcast.
Thank you so much.
I can't wait to hang out at NCTMand join in the celebratory
vibes.
Thanks for being just as greatof a guy as everyone says you
are.
Kevin Dykema (41:21):
Well, thanks very much for the kind words and
thanks for having me on thispodcast and thanks for, for
publishing a great book thathelps us all learn about how can
we better meet the needs of ourstudents.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:33):
I'm going to count that as an official
endorsement.
Kevin Dykema endorses MathTherapy.
Kevin Dykema (41:37):
Yeah!
Vanessa Vakharia (41:38):
Ok.
Bye! Guys.
I have no idea why I didn'tswear that entire time.
Like I'm going to have to unpackthat later.
Like that is very weird for me.
I am still thinking about howKevin said that his job was to
know what he doesn't know.
And I think that's going tostick with me for a long time
and it's just something that weall need a little more of in our
(41:59):
lives.
If by the way, you're going tobe at NCTM, I'm going to be
there in the halls.
I'm doing a little book signing,so you can grab a copy of my
book at the Corwin booth, or youcan order it now at
maththerapy.com and I'mpresenting once solo and another
time with the one and only PeterLiljedahl, I would love to see
you there.
And whether you come to mypresentation or not, I would
(42:21):
just love to meet you and seeyou.
So if you're going to be there,reach out, let me know.
Let's meet up, high five, hug,grab a coffee, whatever.
If something in this episodeinspired you, please tweet us
@maththerapy, and you can alsofollow me personally@themathguru
on Instagram, Twitter, andTikTok.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, it was created
(42:43):
by me and Sabina Wex, and it'sproduced and edited by David
Kochberg.
Our theme music is by GoodnightSunrise.
And guys, if you know someonewho needs math therapy or just
needs to hear someone elsegetting math therapy, please,
please, please share thispodcast, and rate or review it
on whatever podcast app you use.
Those things actually make sucha big difference for us.
(43:04):
I'm determined to change theculture surrounding math and I
need your help, so spread theword.
Until next time, peace, love,and pi.
That was so fun!
Kevin Dykema (43:17):
That was a lot of fun, but I will point out, I
don't think you swore once thisentire time.
I was a little disappointed.
I was waiting for it to happen.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:27):
Why the fuck didn't I swear?
you know what?
I'm going to swear in the intro.
Kevin Dykema (43:31):
Oh good!
Vanessa Vakharia (43:31):
In the intro and the outro.
I'm going to make sure I'll makesure there's some profanity in
this podcast because so we canmark it as explicit.
Because don't want to break thatpattern.
And there is, don't worry,there's a ton of swearing in my
book.
It's all like bleeped out, butthere are, there are lots of
swear words with little like,but thank you so much for making
me feel so seen as a human.
Like, I really appreciate that.
(43:52):
And the fact that you noticedthat, that is active listening,
Kevin.
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