October 16, 2025 • 53 mins
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What is memory? Are different brains good at memorizing different things (like math vs music)? Is memorization even a good way to learn? Why don’t we teach math like we teach reading? Why do we love puzzles and escape rooms but hate math class? Is it possible to make math learning fun?? Will Vanessa ever learn how to explain how to text the podcast?!?! How does this all relate to math trauma?!?!?!
Ok. Deep breaths. Today's ep with Dr. Raj Shah was a rollercoaster, as every question spawned 10 more! Connecting the big thorny debates of math education with the humanity and complexity of what students are actually experiencing in their minds and bodies, Vanessa and Raj laughed, cried, and one of them even broke out into song (probably not the one you expected!)
If you need a triple shot of inspiration, hope, and laughter today, this episode is for you.
Show notes:
- Raj’s TED Talk "Using Video Game Principles to Improve Math Scores"
- Ted Lasso scene "Be curious, not judgmental"
- All of Me by John Legend
- Good Inside by Becky Kennedy
- Annie Fetter “Notice and Wonder”
- Math Therapy S5E06: Redefining Success
- Send us your 3 superpowers!
About Raj: (Website, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook)
Dr. Raj Shah is the founder of Math Plus Academy, a founding member of the Global Math Project, and a leading voice in making math irresistible. Raj is passionate about creating math experiences that feel joyful and accessible, drawing inspiration from everything from video game design to human psychology. Beyond math, Raj is deeply interested in spirituality and therapy, seeing connections between how we approach math, how we heal shame, and how we make sense of the world.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Raj Shah (00:02):
It is like, here's this medicine.
Take it.
It's terrible, you know, you'regonna need to balance your
checkbook someday.
My daughter's like, what's acheck?
People have books of thesethings?
A dream world we could just belike, math is, we should just
learn it'cause it's freakingfun.
Your ability to see thebrilliance in someone else is
completely correlated with yourability to see the brilliance in
(00:24):
yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:27):
Okay guys, tell me if this sounds familiar.
You can remember like everysingle lyric from Mr.
Brightside, but I ask you for asingle times table past the
sevens and your brain's like,Hmm, no.
Or maybe you're the opposite.
Maybe remembering math facts islike easy for you.
But when it comes to songlyrics, your brain is like swiss
cheese vibes.
Well, on today's episode, Dr.
(00:48):
Raj Shah and I risk it all anddive into one of the most
controversial topics in all ofmath ed: how and why
memorization became such a dirtyword.
Raj is one of those people wholike makes you rethink your
entire life with one sentence.
And in this episode, he's comingfor all of it.
The myths, the guilt, the, youjust have to memorize your facts
(01:09):
nonsense.
And that one haunting questionthat students always ask, but
teachers are terrified toanswer.
Why do we teach so much stuff inmath class that we'll never
actually use in real life?
You're gonna hear us break downwhy memorizing might not be evil
if used in the right context,why and how we should consider
students' emotions in class, andwhy maybe just maybe we should
(01:33):
stop, like, torturing kids withuseless math and start teaching
them the stuff that actuallymatters.
If you're a teacher who's everthought I don't know how to get
through to these kids, or aparent who's tired of math
homework meltdowns, or a humanwho's ever felt personally
victimized by the timestables,this is an episode you cannot
skip.
We laughed, we cried, and one ofus even started singing a John
(01:56):
Legend song.
I've said too much, so here's myconvo with Dr.
Raj Shah.
Hello.
Hi.
Raj Shah (02:05):
Hello.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:07):
I just finished your TED Talk.
First of all, very cool that youhave a TED Talk.
My first question is, do youhave to memorize that whole
thing?
Raj Shah (02:14):
You do.
They, they recommend that you,me, they give you training once
you get accepted and they wantyou to write the whole thing
out.
That is the hardest thing thatI've ever done.
I'm super curious, could youtell that I memorized the whole
thing word for word?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:28):
No, it's not that.
it's not like, oh, this soundedlike it was a script.
It's just, it's so tight.
Right?
Like you're making your point sosuccinctly.
Just that's a skill I don'thave, like I'm a very like outer
processor, so, everything issaid so concisely, did you
memorize it, was my thought.
I was like, well, I would.
You.
Okay.
Raj Shah (02:45):
it, and it was torture because I'm used to presenting,
but I'm not used to havingthings memorized.
And so I was up in, in my headthe whole time, like, don't get
any of the words wrong, don'tget any of the words wrong,
don't stumble, they're recordingthis, blah, blah, blah.
And it was tough.
I was sweating the whole time.
Uh, there's a moment.
I don't know if you noticed it.
I know where it is.
It's the very end.
(03:06):
And it's, it's hilarious becausesubconsciously I have this
thought of like, oh my goodness,I have made it to the end.
I have like three sentences leftand I have not goofed this thing
up yet.
And right then in that moment,there's a hiccup and I had to
like, catch my sentence andlike, I dunno if I restarted it
or missed a word or something,but it's in there.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:23):
Huh.
Raj Shah (03:24):
if you didn't, if you didn't catch it, you can go back
and try and catch it.
But that's one of the hardesttalks I've ever given.
And then I did a, did a fiveminute, what are those things
called, Ignite?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:32):
Well, like, that's what I was gonna say.
It reminds me of that vibe.
Yeah,
Raj Shah (03:35):
At CMC South last year, the year before on, uh, my
favorite show Ted Lasso,"Becurious, not judgmental".
And had to memorize that becauseyou gotta be on that 15 second
Cadence with those slideschanging all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:49):
That's why I don't wanna do it.
Raj Shah (03:51):
I don't know if I wanna do that to myself again.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:53):
I don't think I ever wanna do it.
And you know what it actuallymade me think of, like as you're
talking, it's making me thinkabout how like memorization is
such a hot topic in math, right?
The idea of like memorizing.
And I have to tell yousomething.
You know, I'm in a band withDavid and I am very good at
memorizing lyrics.
Like I can do it so easily.
Like I'm actually really good atmemorizing things.
(04:14):
And I was like debating withDavid, I'm like, is this a
useful skill though?
I'm like, you know, part of thereason I'm so good at memorizing
is so much of my education wasabout memorizing things,
memorizing scripts when you'rein drama class, memorizing your
presentations, that's how you'retaught to do it.
Memorizing all these formulas inmath class.
And I have to say I'm very goodat it.
But let me tell you how Imemorize a song and I'm
(04:36):
wondering if this is how youmemorize your TED Talk.
I'm not just memorizing, like,words on a page with no meaning.
I'm memorizing them and my cuesare all based in meaning.
So like, okay, I'm gonna singabout this thing now because in
the last verse I just talkedabout trying to like, be more
like myself, and I tried to likedo all these weird strategies,
(04:57):
so now logically I'm gonna talkabout how that made me feel.
Oh, that cues, the words thathave to do with feel, like, do
you know what I mean?
It's not like,
Raj Shah (05:04):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:05):
So is that what you did for your TED Talk?
Are you like,
Raj Shah (05:07):
a, that was a sneaky way to get us to talk about
Vanessa Vakharia (05:09):
I didn't mean to, I, that's not even, it's not
on my list.
That's not what I wanted to talkabout, but it just occurred to
me right now.
Raj Shah (05:16):
Uh, gosh, now I have so many thoughts like.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:19):
Okay.
Raj Shah (05:20):
I, I, I hated memorizing those speeches.
Hate is a very strong word.
It's just really challenging todo it.
And I think part of the reasonwas there was like this
perfectionism thing that likecreeped out, was like, oh, don't
get any of the words wrong,you're doomed.
And when I normally, I speak alot in front of audiences and I
(05:40):
get nervous beforehand, but Idon't memorize anything.
I have my slides and they,they're, they're my cues, like
you just said.
They give me the meaning and Iknow what goes with that.
Doesn't come out the same everytime.
But I do also feel like comesout authentically because, every
time I give the talk, it's adifferent version of me giving
the talk.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:01):
Mm.
Raj Shah (06:02):
And
Vanessa Vakharia (06:02):
Ooh.
Raj Shah (06:03):
even if I gave it last week and I'm giving it today,
I've already had someexperiences in the world that
may inform something about whatI emphasize or what I
de-emphasize, or a differentstory that I might put in or not
put in.
And when you memorize, you'resort of, you're locked in.
It's so constraining.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
Hmm,
Raj Shah (06:23):
haven't really thought about this, but I, I'm wondering
now, like how does this apply tomath?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (06:30):
and then if I keep riffing, the other thing I will
say is that because of the waymath was taught, certainly when
I was growing up, and probablywhen most other people listening
to this were growing up, youcould get by just memorizing, at
least K 12.
And I was a good math memorizer,I think people, including
(06:50):
myself, mistook that as being"good at math", you
Vanessa Vakharia (06:56):
Yeah.
Yes.
I, I mean, yes.
Raj Shah (06:58):
really smart.
Like, was I smart or was I justgood at memorizing?
And also, what does smart evenmean?
You made a great point aboutmeaning, right?
Like there are many ways inwhich you can try to memorize
things.
And when you are able to connectthem and put meaning to them, I
think of it as like they sort ofattach like puzzle pieces to
things in your brain that werealready there, which means
(07:20):
they're gonna kind of staylocked in or more likely to stay
locked in than if you just havea random collection of facts
bopping around in there.
'Cause they're gonna get lost.
And I think that's what happensto a lot of kids is that we may
be trying to get them tomemorize, but if it's
disconnected, it probably won'tlast
Vanessa Vakharia (07:39):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I, sorry.
I don't know.
I, I, I really, that wasactually fascinating, but not,
Raj Shah (07:45):
Wait, I got one more thing.
I got
Vanessa Vakharia (07:46):
yeah.
Yeah.
Keep going.
Raj Shah (07:47):
learning how to, I'm learning how to sing.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:49):
I'm sorry.
What?
No, you're not.
Since when?
Raj Shah (07:54):
Since, uh, about two or three years,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Okay.
Raj Shah (07:57):
I would've called myself not a music person.
Not that anyone would saysomething crazy like
Vanessa Vakharia (08:03):
People say that all the time.
Raj Shah (08:04):
fixed mindset.
Um, I was like, okay, I'm gonnachallenge myself to sing.
And I, I was motivated.
I wanted to sing at my, uh, formy wife at our 25th anniversary.
But learning the lyrics to songsis really hard for me, really
hard.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:21):
Really
Raj Shah (08:21):
Even songs that I know really well, and you feel like,
you know, you know how, youknow, you have song lyrics in
your brain, right?
Like taking up space.
But when the lyrics, whensomeone else isn't singing them,
and when they're not on thescreen to read, I actually don't
know them that well.
So it's like, am I good atmemorizing math things, but not
as good at memorizing songs?
(08:42):
That's interesting.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:44):
I do have actually quite a few questions
here, because I feel that is agood question.
I think there'd be a fewadditional questions we would
have to ask to dig into it,because first of all, you're
memorizing math things, youcould say, okay, I'm good at,
you know, I'm memorizing maththings, but then I'm doing
something challenging with thatmemory because I'm on like a
high stakes test, so now I'm, oryou know, I'm standing in front
(09:05):
of people at a TED talk, so nowI've gotta recite something
while I'm under pressure.
Now, whereas with singing, it'sit, I would say equal, because
you're not only memorizinglyrics, then you have to do this
thing you're uncomfortable with,which is sing the lyrics.
So there's an additional levelof stress.
Raj Shah (09:20):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:21):
I'm wondering why you're finding memorizing
lyrics challenging?
Is it because you're notattaching any meaning to them?
Raj Shah (09:30):
I don't know.
I, I was attaching meaning tothem.
The song I was trying to singwas, it was quite meaningful
Vanessa Vakharia (09:35):
What was it?
Raj Shah (09:36):
Uh, I,
Vanessa Vakharia (09:38):
We all wanna know.
Raj Shah (09:39):
sang, this is absurd, I sang All of Me by John Legend.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:44):
Oh my God, come on, give us a verse.
Give us something.
Raj Shah (09:47):
No.
Oh, goodness gracious.
I stepped into this.
But see, this is the thing, likeright now, without the music
playing in the background,right, without some sort of cue,
I literally don't remember whatthe first line of the song is.
I.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:04):
Yeah.
But that makes sense becauseyour memory of that lyric is
attached to the sonic, uh,representation of the music.
It's actually those things.
It's like when a smell invokes amemory,
Raj Shah (10:15):
the, the, him playing the
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
you'd get it.
Raj Shah (10:18):
It would probably
Vanessa Vakharia (10:19):
It would it.
Raj Shah (10:20):
I need that before I can start it.
Also, the stress of you justmaking me do this like on a
podcast,
Vanessa Vakharia (10:25):
really freaking you out.
We're still waiting for you tosing the verse.
Raj Shah (10:28):
it, shut the system down.
Like, wait, what?
How does the song, what are eventhe words?
I, it must say all of me at somepoint in the song.
I don't
Vanessa Vakharia (10:35):
Oh,
Raj Shah (10:36):
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (10:38):
there it is.
Raj Shah (10:38):
"Do without your smart mouth draw me in and you kicking
me out.
You got my head spinning.
No kidding.
You can't pin me down." Thereyou go.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:53):
My
Raj Shah (10:54):
I did it.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:54):
I did not think you were gonna do it.
First of all, you sound amazing.
Raj Shah (10:58):
Hey, thanks.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:59):
I can't believe you just said
Raj Shah (11:00):
I'm on
Vanessa Vakharia (11:00):
you just, you do, and you just did it acapella
because we turned the music off.
This is what the fans wannahear, like we should, we could
just end right now.
This is, this is, okay.
First of all, let's.
Raj Shah (11:10):
you also told me that you edit this so we can edit
that whole thing out
Vanessa Vakharia (11:13):
We could, but we won't, and we're in charge.
And you've already signed yourrelease form.
Okay, so now listen, the reasonI brought up the TED talk, by
the way also, but now I've gottasay something else, which
there's no reason I thought wewould talk about it all, but I'm
so glad you brought up.
You know what's funny about thatI'm not a music person thing,
you'll hear this thing all thetime where you o obviously
(11:34):
always hear people say, I'm nota math person.
Because people deeply believethat they are born with this
thing in their brain they eitherhave or don't have.
Now the thing, the only otherthing I've found that people say
with the same level of, offrequency is I'm not musical.
I have no musical talent.
I'm not able to sing.
Raj Shah (11:53):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:54):
People think it's like a physical thing,
right?
Like your vocal chords.
Now, I don't know if you foundthis, but I started working with
a vocal coach years and yearsago.
And I cannot, I was like, well,this is my range, I'm an alto,
this is how I sing, this is mytone of voice.
Whatever I have gained over anoctave of musical notes.
And she's like, you could do waymore.
Raj Shah (12:13):
cool.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:14):
Well, it's so cool.
But it busted my own limitingbelief of being like, well, this
is, certain people just havethese voices.
Raj Shah (12:21):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:21):
found that?
Raj Shah (12:24):
Uh, my range has definitely improved.
Not an octave.
Part of the reason I did it wasto force me out of the box.
Right.
Like, and going back to yourpoint about I'm not a x, y, Z
person.
I think art is another one.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:37):
art is another one sometimes.
Raj Shah (12:39):
I can't draw, I can't draw.
I,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:41):
Or athletic people do that too.
Raj Shah (12:43):
um, yeah, maybe a little bit with physical things
too.
Sports.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:47):
It.
Raj Shah (12:47):
Yeah.
So I guess there are, uh, we,math is not alone in this fixed
Vanessa Vakharia (12:51):
No, it's just like the most frequent.
It's the most frequent.
Raj Shah (12:54):
to us.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:55):
Well, and also there's the most pressure on it.
Like, okay, you can't paint, youcan't like play a sport, like
it's not gonna affect you forthe rest of your life.
But as you said in your TEDTalk, which is literally the
whole fucking reason I broughtup your TED Talk, and 15 minutes
later we're gonna actually go tothis, you start your TED Talk by
saying, and this literally, wow,the segue I'm coming up with
right now is just blowing my ownfucking mind.
(13:15):
You say, as a society, we'vedone a really good job of
telling everyone, if you can'tdo math, you are in trouble.
But we've done a really poor jobof making people feel like they
can do math or want to do math.
Now, I want you to elaborate onthat, but just to tie the bow on
what we were saying, we don'ttell people if you can't draw or
you can't play basketball,you're in trouble.
(13:36):
So there's just way lesspressure on those things.
People don't have necessarily asmuch anxiety around it because
it's like, I can't do it.
Well, fine.
Whereas with math, it's like,you can't do it, you're fucked.
Raj Shah (13:46):
You're doomed.
You're doomed.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:48):
So tell me more about that statement.
Raj Shah (13:51):
So speaking of like things that people have decided
they can't do or they're not
Vanessa Vakharia (13:55):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (13:56):
We touched on the word smart.
When I think about it, I thinkfor the most part have put a lot
of connection betweenmathematical ability or
proficiency and smartness.
If you are really good atwriting and reading, we probably
don't call you smart.
We probably call you like abookworm or a writer or
Vanessa Vakharia (14:16):
God.
Raj Shah (14:17):
right?
If you're really good at sports,you're not smart, you're
athletic, right?
We could go down the list.
I could do this forever,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:24):
Like Picasso isn't smart.
He's a talented genius.
Raj Shah (14:27):
smart.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:29):
Yep, yep, yep.
Raj Shah (14:30):
it's the one subject they're like tied together like
this.
So in our culture we've madethis like tie.
So like, and, and then obviouslyI think in this culture we've
also made it that you wouldwanna be smart as opposed to not
be smart, which means you betterbe good at math.
That is lot of freakingpressure.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:47):
Pause on that for a second.
That is so much pressure.
But then you go on to say thenext part, which is I think even
adds to the pressure, which isthen we make it seem like only
certain people can do it.
Raj Shah (14:59):
Yeah.
And that I always wonder like,is that an accident
Vanessa Vakharia (15:05):
Mm.
Raj Shah (15:06):
master design?
But I'm not ready to get intothat in this
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
I'm ready.
And it's obviously the secondone, but go on.
Raj Shah (15:11):
I don't have form thoughts about it yet,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:13):
Okay.
Raj Shah (15:13):
um.
we live in a culture thatbelieves this idea, this absurd
idea that some people can domath and some people can't.
And I've heard you talk aboutlike your research into the
media and the way it portraysmath and all the things, right?
Like every sign that you canpossibly get in Western or
American culture is like mathpeople are introverted, they're
(15:36):
quiet, they're super special,they're gifted genius, and along
with that genius comes all thequirkiness and it's like, no, I
can, I can do math and be sortof normal.
And so what if I'm quirky?
It's like both things at thesame time
Vanessa Vakharia (15:51):
I kind of think also what's cool is not
only does it make sense, butyou're kind of saying, we've
done this really good job offreaking people out, but then
we've done this horrible job of,what did you say, I wanna make
sure, of making people feel likethey can do math or even like
making them want to do math.
Raj Shah (16:07):
to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:08):
Yeah.
So it's like you,
Raj Shah (16:10):
it is like, here's this medicine.
Take it.
It's terrible,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:13):
but so why?
Tell me.
Raj Shah (16:15):
13 years.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:16):
Tell me, tell me why you think that is.
Like, okay, we're not gonna gointo our conspiracy theory of
maybe it's by some grand design.
Let's pre, let's pretendeveryone's very
well-intentioned.
Okay?
Cause what we're we're gonna getto next is that you have all of
these incredible ways of makingmath fun and irresistible, and
bringing out the brilliance ineveryone, right?
Your eyes are opening widethere.
(16:36):
Like, are you agreeing or areyou saying no, Vanessa, that's
completely incorrect.
Raj Shah (16:39):
I guess I'm agreeing.
I, I wonder sometimes about factthat math is useful,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:48):
Okay.
Raj Shah (16:48):
that you're going to quote, unquote, need it in real
life, whatever the heck thatmeans.
And these like tropes that wethat people still use to this
day that I just laugh at.
Like, you know, you're gonnaneed to balance your checkbook
someday.
And like my daughter's like,what's a check?
People have books of thesethings that I don't even know
what a check is.
What, what?
Nobody, nobody is balancing acheckbook in 2025.
(17:12):
This is absurd.
But yeah, you're gonna need it.
Like, can we just be honest andsay most of the stuff you learn
in K 12 math, you're never goingto need.
Most of the skills.
I'm
Vanessa Vakharia (17:25):
Yep,
Raj Shah (17:25):
not the thinking, right, but the skills, you're
not! Long division, don't needit.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:30):
Don't need it.
Raj Shah (17:31):
don't need it.
Factoring, polynomials don'tneed
Vanessa Vakharia (17:34):
SOHCAHTOA.
Why?
Raj Shah (17:35):
Polynomials don't need that either.
Trig functions don't need it.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:38):
Yeah.
We don't need this stuff.
We don't need it.
Raj Shah (17:40):
Most of the math that is in the school of math.
Like if we were being reallyhonest questioning our own value
in the world as teachers, likeyou don't need the skills.
A hundred percent, math givesyou an amazing way, an amazing
lens through which to see theworld that's super duper useful.
Like being skeptical of beingable to quantify things, being
(18:01):
able to look at data and decidewhether this makes sense or that
makes sense or that conclusion,or correlation and causation and
all these things that you canlearn through the study of
mathematics, super valuable.
I want everyone to have thatability to put that lens on when
it is appropriate.
and like okay if you didn'tmemorize all your facts, you're
(18:24):
still gonna live a perfectlylife.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:30):
but tell me this, okay, because you know
what, I don't know when yourinterview's coming out in
relation to these other people.
Maybe it's come out, maybe ithasn't, but this week I
interviewed two moms.
The conversation was, I actuallydon't even know if I can publish
it'cause I might get canceled.
But it was, it was heartbreakingbecause these moms were like,
Raj Shah (18:47):
Hmm,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:48):
math was horrible for us, it's horrible
for our kids, they just feellike shit all the time.
But then they just were like,why aren't they learning this
stuff?
Why the fuck are they learningit?
And I was like, you know, Idon't have much of a good answer
and I'm so glad you just broughtit up.
'Cause I really wanna ask you,you're telling me all this stuff
is useless.
I, I mean, I had some answers.
I was like, well, they'relearning it because maybe if
(19:10):
they wanna go into a collegeprogram where, right, like a, a
part of it is a likepreventative almost.
It's like, well maybe you'regonna wanna do this thing and
then you need the prereq this,or like, well, they need the
skills that they're learning.
Exactly.
Like you said, they needskepticism thinking.
But dude, why are they learningthis shit if there's so much
other stuff they could belearning?
Can you tell me why?
Raj Shah (19:29):
Why we have all that stuff in the K 12?
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
Yeah, why?
Raj Shah (19:31):
Yeah, because we always did.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:34):
Oh shit.
Raj Shah (19:35):
there was probably a time when knowing all these
things and having them superduper committed to your memory
and being able to calculatequickly arithmetic things was
useful.
Like my dad grew up with sliderules.
Okay, we
Vanessa Vakharia (19:47):
Same.
Raj Shah (19:47):
rules anymore, right?
Like we have calculators and wehave phones that you can just
ask what 42 divided by 19 is andget an answer like, super
accurate, super quick.
So I don't feel like we've keptup with that.
And then the, my other half ofit would be, and I was answering
(20:09):
your other question, which is Ithink the fact that math is
useful in real life, we've likedrank too much of that Kool-Aid
Vanessa Vakharia (20:14):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (20:15):
and convinced ourselves that like everybody's
doomed if they don't learn allthis stuff and um, put all this
pressure on it and all thatstuff.
And it's like, what if we justlike it?
What if a dream world we couldjust be like, math is, we should
just learn it'cause it'sfreaking fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:31):
Right.
That was what you were gettingat.
Raj Shah (20:32):
Puzzles are fun,
Vanessa Vakharia (20:33):
Yes.
Raj Shah (20:34):
you know, like, one of my favorite examples to give is
like escape rooms.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:39):
Oh my God.
I love escape rooms.
Raj Shah (20:41):
Okay?
So believe it or not, people whowill claim to not be math people
also love escape
Vanessa Vakharia (20:47):
Right.
Raj Shah (20:48):
But what is an escape room?
It's absurd.
You're locking yourself in aroom with some friends for 60
minutes and you're taking atest.
This is what you're doing, Andyou're paying money to do this
for someone to do this to you,like giving up your most
precious resource, which istime.
(21:11):
But if I gave you a math test,you'd be like, oh, math, this is
terrible.
You
Vanessa Vakharia (21:14):
is boring.
Raj Shah (21:15):
Yeah, like we just took all the fun stuff out, left
it, we called it a K 12 math,and then we're like, how come
nobody likes this?
Well, because you took all,every, anything that could
possibly could be good has beensucked out of it.
Now, of course, over the lastfew years, I think people are
trying to infuse back curiosity,wonder, puzzle, problem solving,
(21:36):
all those things, just for thesake of those things, because
that's what human beings want todo.
We love challenge.
We love being curious.
We love cha.
You know, I said challengetwice.
We love doing these things.
We like risk taking.
People like take risks.
Do it in a math class.
Take some risks, put up aproblem that you think nobody
can solve and see what happens.
(21:57):
Chaos will ensue.
That'll be fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:59):
You've really just made me think of something
because, well, a few things, butwhat you said a few beats ago
about saying, I think it'sbecause we are so, um, bent on
being like, it's this thingyou're going to use.
That actually just really struckme because I started mentally
(22:19):
being like going through theother subjects.
You know what I mean?
Like, I was like, okay, hold ona second.
Is this gonna hold up?
And yeah, like, okay, so like,yeah, math is this thing it's
going to use, so it ha it'sgonna be like utilitarian
basically, and therefore the twocannot coexist, right?
Like, we're just gonna, it hasto be like, we can't have
anything fun in that.
(22:39):
And now I'm kind of going downyour path of like, okay, so
like, let's imagine I mean,what's something where you don't
think you're gonna use it, likeart,
Raj Shah (22:48):
History.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:48):
Yeah.
Art or history?
History is pretty boring.
But yeah, like, Yeah.
Let's say something like that.
Art or history, like you'reapproaching it.
Not like, alright guys, you needto make sure you leave with
these skills, memorize and youknow what you're doing.
Because in the real world you'regonna need them for a job.
It's more about it exploring,like history is like all the
stories and the tales and thecharacter and like whatever.
(23:10):
And art's, like all aboutimagination and curiosity.
Find this thing you like andjust go for it.
Try this strategy, try that.
Like, but imagine we approachmath that way.
Raj Shah (23:19):
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:20):
But
Raj Shah (23:20):
we think, if we take the history analogy, like
there's one way history istaught where it's like you need
to know the
Vanessa Vakharia (23:26):
the dates.
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:28):
the people and the
Vanessa Vakharia (23:29):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:30):
and the rulers and whatever, right?
And you pro if you had a teacherlike that, you memorized all
that stuff.
You tried to spit it back out onthe test, and then you
Vanessa Vakharia (23:37):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:38):
remember any of it.
But if you had a good historyteacher, they would tell you the
story, right?
They'd immerse you in the story,the, the intrigue of like, why
these people felt this way andwere at war with those and what,
you know, like you get into thestory of it and then maybe you
would notice that, oh, somethings like that are happening
today in today's world.
(23:58):
You'd make those connections.
That would be a much moremeaningful way, I think.
Not that I've ever taughthistory, but that feels more
meaningful to me.
And maybe it's like that, like Itry to, I don't know a lot of
math history, but I try toinfuse as much of it as I can
Vanessa Vakharia (24:12):
There's like some juicy stuff like
Raj Shah (24:14):
Yeah.
Or like the kids were laughingthere, you know what's off,
because I was like, you know,there's this guy Archimedes, who
was in the bathtub, and I don'teven know if this story's true
or not, but it doesn't matter.
And he was so happy about thewater flowing outta the bathtub
he ran through the streets nakedand they were like, you know,
middle schoolers, like, what didhe just say?
And then the one kid couldn'tstop saying Eureka for the
entire class.
(24:35):
But
Vanessa Vakharia (24:35):
Oh my God.
Raj Shah (24:36):
something he will not forget.
He's
Vanessa Vakharia (24:39):
But
Raj Shah (24:39):
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:40):
I, this is, I, I mean, I've always said this,
I'm like, I think we shouldtreat mathematicians like celeb
culture and talk about all thetea behind it and be like, you
know what?
Raj Shah (24:49):
that.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:49):
I'm it.
So into it.
The thing is though, now whatI'm wondering is,'cause
obviously people are gonna belike, well, hold on a second
though, but you do need math.
Like they need skills.
But I'd like to, I'd like to getout of this dichotomy of it's
either fun or it's functional.
Like why can't it be both?
Like I think you're not saying,scrap any necessary math skills.
(25:09):
You're just sort of right.
Like you're like, no, let'steach math skills that matter.
But also.
Raj Shah (25:16):
yeah.
And I, I'm glad you gave me theopportunity to say that.
Like, I love to say provocativethings like nobody needs long
subtraction and long divisionand all the other,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:24):
But nobody does need long division.
Raj Shah (25:26):
Fair enough.
I'm not arguing against all ofthe things that are in math
class.
There's lots of good stuff.
I'm trying to find the ways tomake the stuff that is there fun
and that the reason we'relearning it, yes it has
practical value, but like, we'rejust learning'cause it's fun to
learn it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:44):
Well, you know what actually might be a good,
almost like a bridge for us itmight be English class.
because I, I, I kind of feellike that's a class where, okay,
you're gonna need these skills.
Like you need to learn how toread, right?
You need to know how to read andwrite, you will need that.
But we do it, let's forget highschool for a second,'cause I
don't wanna talk about essaysand shit, that's debatable if
(26:06):
you even need that with ChatGPT.
Just kidding.
Okay.
But like, let's take it to likeelementary school, we're
teaching kids how to read.
It's utilitarian, as in you needthe skill, but the way we do it
is through like fun ways, likestories, things you're
interested in.
Right?
Raj Shah (26:20):
Thousand percent, yes.
And the analogy to storybooksfor math is games.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
Tell me about your whole video game thing,
Raj Shah (26:29):
Yeah.
but you're making a a, anamazing point.
How do we get kids to beinterested in reading?
It's picture books, right?
Like when you're really littleand we've convinced everyone
that you should read to yourchild every night, right?
That's a thing.
We should be convincing peoplethat you should play one game
with your child every night.
Because every game that you canpossibly think of has math in
(26:54):
it.
Even Scrabble.
That's a math game.
It's not a word game.
it's a math game.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:58):
Oh, hot takes, talk about saying provocative
things.
I'd like to pause and note thatDr.
Raj Shaw here did not say youshould be doing a math worksheet
with your kid every night.
He said, you should play onegame and that, because I get so
many parents saying, well, whatdo I do with my kids at night?
(27:19):
What math thing?
And I, I, this is the mostbeautiful and important thing.
Regardless if you're a parentwho loves math or doesn't love
math, we all love games.
And any game you play will bedoing the work of teaching your
child a math skill.
Raj Shah (27:33):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:36):
Sorry, I really interrupted you.
Raj Shah (27:38):
get to bond over
Vanessa Vakharia (27:39):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (27:39):
to have fun.
When you give worksheets, youknow there are some kids who
will gobble up worksheets andgreat, you know, I might've been
one of those kids, but thosekids are not normal.
And if you're having to forceyour child to do
Vanessa Vakharia (27:54):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (27:54):
creating a negative association for your child to
math and to you.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:02):
Ooh.
Raj Shah (28:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And later in life, when they'rewhatever and you're like,
fighting them about math, it'sgonna, like, it started when you
started that.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:13):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (28:13):
blaming anyone, right.
But I'm just trying to bring anawareness to like, I listen to
your podcast about success wedefine success.
And the thing I loved most aboutit was at the end you talked
about how do I want to feel?
We live in a culture that ishyper rational.
We value thinking, intelligence,math to the highest level,
(28:37):
right?
But we have disconnected fromfeeling.
What you feel in your body.
We've disconnected from itcompletely.
Most of us.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:48):
Mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (28:49):
I'm just learning how to reconnect to it.
What do I want my child to feelwhen they're experiencing
mathematical things?
And if doing the worksheet istorture, I'm now creating an
association with mathematics andpain.
(29:09):
And that is really hard to breakapart.
You would need, wait for it,Math Therapy.
Do you see what I did there?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:19):
So
Raj Shah (29:19):
It's freaking brilliant.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:20):
it was,
Raj Shah (29:21):
so good right now.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:22):
it was expert level,
Raj Shah (29:24):
But it's
Vanessa Vakharia (29:25):
but it's, what you're saying is so important.
Yeah.
Keep going.
It really is.
Raj Shah (29:28):
a game with you and we're having fun, we are
bonding.
I am creating an association, apositive association between you
and me and the game, and at somelevel math, even if they don't
know that we're sneakily doing
Vanessa Vakharia (29:42):
Mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (29:43):
Because when they do see a problem in math class, not
a worksheet, that part of theirmind, that was the game playing
part of their mind is gonna kickin and think, oh, this is like a
game.
It's like a puzzle.
I can do this.
Let me play around with this.
And it's okay if I lose'cause Ilose in games all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:59):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (30:00):
That's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:01):
Oh, I mean, no, that's not, I mean, that's
just, I feel like the beginningand it sets such a strong
foundation for so much of theway, I think we can think about
this because you're right nowtalking about like, you know,
like a parent doing somethingwith their kid, but my mind is
going to, oh my gosh, like mostkids and adults actually have
that negative association withmath.
(30:22):
Not just from parents doing ornot doing worksheets.
From school.
What is the feeling?
We, and and this is what Ialways do focus on with math
therapy, you know, there's thatquote that says something like,
I can't remember who said it, soI'm sorry.
But, uh, kids don't remember thethings you say or teach them.
They remember how you make themfeel.
And the truth is that,
Raj Shah (30:41):
a Toni Morrison.
I think don't remember how you
Vanessa Vakharia (30:45):
Oh,
Raj Shah (30:47):
they remember how you made
Vanessa Vakharia (30:48):
that's it.
You're right.
That is exactly what it is.
Raj Shah (30:50):
Okay, there you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:51):
Can you fact check that over there, please?
Toni Morrison.
Thanks.
Okay.
Um, you're right.
It wasn't even, it wasn'tanything to do with education,
but it was exactly that.
Here's the thing is like a very,unfortunately, when, you know,
if you're a teacher listening tothis, a kid is probably walking
into your classroom with baggagearound math.
They just are.
And a lot of that baggage isnegative because so many of the
feelings associated with mathare about being scolded for
(31:14):
being wrong, being told you'redoing something the wrong way.
Not doing something fast enough,feeling like you're not smart.
It's just like icky, ugh,whatever.
And we do constantly, I do findin math, in the, in the math ed
bubble we're in, where there'sall this wonderful professional
development.
Everyone's like, curiosity,wonder, joy.
And I keep thinking to myself,okay, cool babe.
Like I, yes, we want kids to becurious and wonder, we want them
(31:37):
to be playing games, butthey're, right now, most of them
are scared and they feel likeanything that is called math is
going to elicit those samenegative feelings they've,
they've already had.
Right?
It's like, you know, we couldget into very deep into like
their childhood parts havealready developed that
association.
So, what you're kind of sayingis you don't, even if you're a
(32:01):
parent or you wanna do somethingexternal, or even if you're a
teacher, would you say that oneway to break this and to at
least start with getting intotheir curiosity, is to just drop
the word math from it and dosomething tangential to math,
like playing a game?
Raj Shah (32:14):
Math is a four letter word for a lot of people.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
It is
Raj Shah (32:18):
Maybe.
Maybe.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:20):
so like even, I'm just thinking if you're a
teacher and you're like, Ireally wanna do this, I would
almost be like, don't even callit a math game.
Right.
You could just be like, we'regonna solve a puzzle.
We're gonna play a game.
Raj Shah (32:28):
Don't call it a math game.
Are you nuts?
It's a game.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:33):
It's a game.
It's a game.
Raj Shah (32:35):
Don't sabotage yourself by like, Hey kid, we're
gonna go play a math game.
Are you nuts?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Well,
Raj Shah (32:42):
a game.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
playing a game and I also think that, you know,
some people will be like, yeah,but what about they're not
learning like addition or, orthrough the game.
But what you're saying is yes,but when they go into the class
and solve any type of problemand face any type of challenge,
which is what they're doing allthe time, those same skills that
they've built while playingwhatever game with you will
(33:03):
translate into the classroom.
So yes, they've built skills ofresilience, perseverance, not
worrying if they're losing,liking a challenge, trying to
think creatively beingcuriosity.
Now they go into school, theylearn integers, they don't know,
integers, but all of a sudden itopens them up to being more
curious and resilient aboutlearning the thing of integers,
the concept and they're moreable to absorb it.
(33:25):
When students have a morepositive math identity, when
they feel less anxious ingeneral, when you're in a flow
state, when you're curious, youwill learn more.
Raj Shah (33:35):
You had mentioned like if the, they learned addition
while playing the game, that'lltranslate.
I don't know for sure if that'strue or not.
I kind of has to be, but but thefeeling, I think translates.
And what I try to tell teacherswhen they're, I don't know what
word to use, but when they'restruggling with kids who don't
appear to want to engage inmathematics and have tuned out
(33:56):
and all the things, is like yougotta get the attitude and the
mindset first.
I know you, everyone feels likeif I could just get them to
memorize their multiplicationfacts, then we could do the fun
math.
And so they, they like defaultto going back to that which is
really boring.
And all the things, because ifyou're older and you're supposed
(34:17):
to know that, then there's allthat, all that feeling is gonna
come with that, right?
Like, here we go, we'reremediating you guys again'cause
you didn't get it the firstseven times, so we're gonna do
it again.
And we're just, we're actuallysolidifying the idea that you
are the kind of kids who don'tget this stuff.
Right.
And I think we just, we don'tthink about feelings at all.
(34:38):
My number one job when you comein that room is to make you feel
safe, to make you feel seen, tomake you feel heard.
Right?
If I can't do those things, Igot no shot.
And then after that to make youfeel like this thing that we're
doing is fun.
You're capable of doingsomething.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:55):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (34:56):
Maybe you don't get right answers yet.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Sure.
Raj Shah (34:58):
But you can do something.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:59):
You can do something.
Raj Shah (35:00):
Things like Annie Fetter's"notice and wonder",
right?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:03):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (35:03):
Everyone can notice.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:05):
Talking about feelings, I wanna kind of
continue a bit with it, becausewe don't talk about it a lot
because we are so disconnectedfrom our bodies and like
Raj Shah (35:12):
yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:13):
Also emotion and feeling are like bad words
almost.
Raj Shah (35:17):
We've been taught to like, push'em down and not worry
about them,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:21):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (35:22):
we have all these other problems.
Which, real quick about bodylanguage
Vanessa Vakharia (35:25):
Take your time.
Raj Shah (35:26):
This may resonate, if there's a teacher watching, uh,
listening.
Read their body language, I wassomewhere, when we were just
talking with adults, andeventually, you know, it comes
out that I teach math for aliving and then, you know,
there's the, uh, but I, but forthe first time when somebody was
giving me that reaction, Iwatched their bodies and I was
(35:49):
sitting at the end of the tableand these two women were sitting
like this.
And literally when they werelike talking about themselves in
math, their whole systemcollapsed.
Like they went, oh, math.
So like that tells you that allof that is literally in their
entire body.
The idea that they can't do mathand all the sadness that they
(36:09):
have, pain and suffering andtrauma, if we're gonna use that
word.
Right?
It's all in the body.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:15):
mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (36:16):
you're not going to solve that.
I, there's no way I can solvethat by being like, Hey, let's
work on your multiplicationfacts.
If you can just memorize whatseven times eight is, I
guarantee you'll feel betterabout yourself.
It's not gonna work.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:28):
Well, it makes me think too of like kids
slouching and being called likelazy and it's like, so sit up in
your chair, da, da da.
It's like if somebody is in thatposition, there is something
taking over their whole body.
And not only should that, isthat really actually helpful for
teachers?
Because I always say it's likeyou can look for very like,
explicit signs of like mathanxiety and trauma in things
(36:49):
like that.
Like a kid with his head down orjust she's slouching or just
like eyes darting around theroom or arms crossed.
Like those are signs that likesomething is not okay.
But I think we often are like,oh, just like sit up and do your
work.
And it's like, that is thebiggest, we should be grateful
for that gift.
It's like we are now seeing howdeep this like math trauma runs
(37:11):
for this person and you're soright that the way to an
embodied experience is neverthrough the mind.
So if we are dealing withsomething that has gotten that
far in a student's body, the wayto do it is not to be like, just
do more questions or just listento me explain this concept.
Right?
Like somatically, we have to getthem, we have to meet them where
(37:34):
they are, which is in theirbodies.
Raj Shah (37:36):
Yeah.
So educate me, what would you doin that situation?
Vanessa Vakharia (37:40):
I think it can be really scary.
Because educators all want thebest for their students.
We want to help our students.
Sometimes that's how I feel whenI talk about math anxiety and
math therapy is like, I havethese math teachers who are
like, well, I know how to teachmath, but I don't know how to
like, talk to someone abouttheir feelings.
Like, no one trained you on howto do that.
And I, I really get that.
(38:01):
So I think we first have to belike, the more you know, the
more you know you don't know,you know, like the more we
learn, the more we realize wedon't know.
And that's cool.
And you know why that's cool?
Because as educators we are alsolifelong learners.
That's what makes us greateducators.
I would say a, an entry pointinto like, if a student is in
(38:21):
front of you, arms crossed,slouching, like obvious, you
know, I'm not gonna say obvious'cause it's not obvious, we're
learning what that means.
They're shut down becausethere's math trauma that lives
in their body.
They have a series of badexperiences.
They don't feel like they can doit.
We don't know the exact thing.
Honestly, my first tip is to getto the feeling center.
Whatever you're comfortablewith, you're comfortable at
(38:43):
asking questions'cause you're ateacher.
But instead of asking a mathquestion, crouching down,
getting down next to'em soyou're at their level and being
like, are you okay?
Like, what are you feeling rightnow?
That's it.
It can be, that simple.
And I am, I am thinking this'cause it's really interesting.
I just interviewed a grade 11student for the podcast, which
I've never done.
And she said, she doesn't knowanything about all this Building
(39:05):
Thinking class, which doesn'tknow any of the shit.
And she said what made such abig difference is she had this
teacher when the teacher cameover to talk to her about math,
the teacher would crouch downand get on her level and say,
Hey, I can tell you're feelingstressed, don't worry about it,
like we get, we're gonna getthrough this together.
As, and she was like, all myother teachers would stand above
me and hover over me.
(39:25):
And it, it would be so obviousthat they were impatient.
They just, and I was like, it's,you know, you're talking about
body language.
We can read a student's bodylanguage, they can read ours.
You know, so just getting, youknow, I won't get into this,
'cause now it's really in theweeds, but I know you and I have
been talking about the nervoussystem and one of the things
I'll say is just know this ifyou're listening, don't worry
about the terminology, but we ashumans seek to co-regulate.
(39:50):
That means we seek to feel safearound other people through
energy.
So the biggest thing you can do,crouch down next to a student,
look at them kindly in the eyes,relax your body and really feel
sympathetic towards them.
And just like we're on the sameteam.
And that's the starting point.
You don't need to be like, andnow we're gonna do some deep
(40:10):
breathing, like, if you'recomfortable with that, cool.
But really just the question,how are you feeling right now?
Like, let's just take a beat,don't worry about the math, tell
me how you feel.
And then my next favoritequestion is, do you feel like
you've had like negativeexperiences with math before?
Raj Shah (40:24):
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:26):
We're talking about feelings.
You can't logic out a feeling.
It's emotion, if someone is, isin an emotional state, you've
gotta react emotionally.
You get what I'm saying?
Did that, does that help, do youthink?
Raj Shah (40:39):
That helps.
That helps.
The, the word that just keepsflying into my brain is
compassion.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:43):
Compassion, yes.
Raj Shah (40:45):
that you know how to
Vanessa Vakharia (40:46):
Yes.
Raj Shah (40:47):
for someone, can you do that?
And I get that there's like 29other students in the room and
so you can't spend minutes withthis pers, you know, with this
child who's in pain, but findthose moments where you can show
that compassion, like you said,get down at their level.
For sure.
And I love that you said like,ask a question more about
(41:07):
feelings and less about logic.
That's, that's good advice.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:11):
And also keep in mind like we're adults and we
often don't know why, I mean,think about, I just think about
all the therapy I've done wherelike think I know everything and
then my therapist will ask me aquestion and all of a sudden
some story will unravel that I'mlike.
Wait, what?
I don't even know what's comingoutta my mouth right now.
I didn't realize I evenremembered this memory and all
(41:33):
of a sudden, blah.
And I'm an adult that's beenthrough therapy, so our student
is not sitting there thinking, Iknow what's going on, I've got
boatloads of math trauma.
They, they're not, all they arethinking is, I, I hate this.
I don't feel good,
Raj Shah (41:45):
Yeah.
I hate this or there's somethingwrong with me.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:47):
or there's something wrong with me, which
is me in therapy all the time.
There's something wrong with me.
Raj Shah (41:52):
Yeah, there's a book by Dr.
Becky Kennedy.
it's called Good Inside.
The premise of the book iseveryone is good inside.
And you know, I read that and itreally, the moment I read it
where I was in my life, it justlike hit me like a ton of
bricks.
And I've been going around nowsaying something almost
(42:15):
identical, which is that everychild is brilliant and,
realizing now that my job, myentire job, is just to help them
recognize the ways in whichthey're brilliant and reinforce
them.
And if that's all I did, I'msuccessful.
(42:35):
And then I'll layer on some mathevery once in a while.
But like the math, like watchingthem do math gives me the
opportunity to see all the waysin which they're brilliant.
To me, when I'm doing that, itis so much fun to teach kids
math.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:53):
I love this so much because I not to make this
about me, but I will for onesecond.
I, I always just say the goal ofMath Therapy, like has nothing
to do with right answers ormarks, is just to help every
child build a betterrelationship with math and
therefore themselves, right?
It's about self-worth.
Like, that's all I want.
But one question I have for you,because I love this idea of
(43:15):
being like, my only job, again,it kind of goes back to that
Toni Morrison quote.
Is it Toni Morrison?
We haven't decided, but thatquote of being like, at the end
of the day, kids are gonnaremember how you made them feel.
And there's no better gift.
There's no better thing you cangive a student than to have them
leaving your care thinking, Ifeel brilliant, I feel really
good about, like, that's,there's nothing better you can
(43:36):
do for like them as anindividual.
Yeah.
And us as a generation.
Like we, you know, like justthat feeling of worth translates
to every area of life.
Not just for themselves and whatthey end up doing because they
now have the confidence, howthey treat other people.
But I have a question.
Do you have any tips for whatyou can say at the end of like a
(43:56):
lesson or a challenge orsomething, like any verbal cues
that can help a child leave alesson feeling brilliant.
Like, do you have any thingslike, regardless of how they
performed on a task or anythinglike that, is there anything a
teacher listening can just startincorporating to help kids feel
really like they're brilliant?
Raj Shah (44:15):
Your ability to see the brilliance in someone else
is completely correlated withyour ability to see the
brilliance in yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:27):
Oh my God,
Raj Shah (44:27):
So step one is recognize all the ways in which
you are brilliant and gifted.
Do not minimize them.
Do not caveat them.
Do not be like, well, I'm nice,but everybody's nice.
It doesn't count.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:41):
hmm.
Raj Shah (44:43):
Like if you're nice, then you're freaking nice.
Like own it.
And you know what's funny?
uh, I've been doing this, uh,with teachers and I'm having
them write down like three oftheir superpowers and how they
apply in the classroom.
And then I tell them what mineare.
And do you know that I try, Ikind of caveat them when I say
that.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:02):
What are they?
Raj Shah (45:02):
people tell me that like, I'm kind of good at
Vanessa Vakharia (45:05):
Uhhuh.
Raj Shah (45:06):
And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing
Vanessa Vakharia (45:08):
Yeah,
Raj Shah (45:09):
Right?
Because it's sort ofembarrassing to say in front of
a group of people, like, this iswhy I'm amazing.
But if I believe that all of usare amazing, then it's a little
less crazy.
Right?
And egotistical.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:22):
What are your three superpowers though?
Just tell us quick.
Raj Shah (45:25):
Uh, one, I'm really, I think, oh, see, I did it right
there.
Really good at making studentsfeel like I'm in it with them as
opposed to the, the sage who hasall the answers and that we're,
we're struggling through thistogether, like,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:41):
Which is also, by the way, one of the tips I
was giving earlier of like astudent loves when they feel
like, Hey, there's nothing wrongwith them, you're in it with
them.
Okay, next step.
What's the next superpower?
Raj Shah (45:52):
Oh, I'm, I'm listing.
Okay.
You want a second one?
Uh, second one.
My silly one is that I'm reallygood at forgetting the answers
to math problems so that whenkids are like, was this right?
I like, literally don't know'cause I forgot.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:04):
Love it.
So you're not a liar.
Raj Shah (46:05):
That's my silly superpower.
And then a third one, if I hadto say a third one.
I think I do a pretty good job.
I will caveat this a tiny bit'cause it's always, you're
always in the process of this, Ithink.
But my favorite quote is, becurious, not judgmental.
Ted Lasso, uh, season one,episode eight, the greatest
scene of TV ever made in thehistory of the universe.
And I try really, really hard tonot judge and just respond with
(46:30):
curiosity all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:32):
I love it.
Okay.
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm sorry I interrupted theinitial flow.
I need you to finish what youwere saying.
Raj Shah (46:39):
Okay.
I think I was saying that yourability to see the brilliance in
others is correlated a hundredpercent directly to your ability
to seller.
So
Vanessa Vakharia (46:47):
Yep.
Raj Shah (46:47):
find your own brilliance.
Like, change that if, if youhave a problem with that, which
lots of people do, um, that'sbeing human.
And then because you've seen itin yourself, you will see it in
other people.
So you'll see, you'll start tosee their kindness.
You'll start to see theircuriosity.
You'll start to see their lackof judgment.
You'll start to see all and thenall you, it's not that
complicated.
(47:08):
Just when you notice it, you'reobligated to tell them,
Vanessa Vakharia (47:12):
I love it.
Raj Shah (47:13):
I love how curious you are.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:14):
I love it.
I love it.
Raj Shah (47:17):
what color the cars are in this problem, I love that
curiosity, it has nothing to dowith the math of this problem,
but never thought about thecolor of the cars.
That's super cool.
Tell me more.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:33):
There it is there.
Raj Shah (47:33):
obviously i's made a little bit
Vanessa Vakharia (47:35):
No, no, no, no.
Raj Shah (47:37):
but you get my point.
Also it is so much more fun tocome to school every day if you
do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:43):
Okay.
Step one, find the brilliance inyourself.
List three things that are yoursuperpowers.
Do it.
No caveat, if you're literallyhaving trouble, call your best
friend and be like, tell methree things that are amazing
about me.
Step two start noticing thebrilliance in the kids around
you, because now you've realizedthree superpowers that you
didn't even know you had.
(48:03):
Just start being curious aboutwhat brilliance lies amongst the
people around you.
And step three, point it out.
Every time you can point it out,you're obligated to say
something about it.
Every time you do.
It's like complimenting awoman's eyeliner.
It always ends well.
They always are happy after theyalways smile and they pass that
on.
Raj Shah (48:22):
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (48:22):
I love it.
Raj Shah (48:23):
tip.
I'm gonna keep that eyeliner
Vanessa Vakharia (48:25):
Eyeliner every time.
Yep.
Dude.
Wow.
Wow.
Honestly, what a great time.
I, you know, I could talk to youfor hours.
You know I absolutely can't.
Is there anything you wantpeople to go look up?
Like if, you know, if peoplewanted to go find you, where
should they go?
Raj Shah (48:39):
Okay.
If, I mean, if they want to,they can go to my website, Dr.
Raj Shaw, drrajshah.com But whatwould be even cooler, because
you asked everyone to write downtheir three superpowers is if
they emailed them to us.
Vanessa Vakharia (48:53):
I want that to happen.
Let's do it.
Email them.
Okay, so you can now actuallytext this podcast.
Raj Shah (49:00):
Ooh.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:00):
But I don't understand where they find that
in the show notes, thedescription The description.
Okay.
So here's what's gonna happen.
You can text us your threesuperpowers to me and Raj, in
the description of this episode.
There will be a number in thepodcast player.
What?
Say it again.
David's so annoyed, David.
Just tell everyone.
He's coming.
David will tell you how to te
David Kochberg (49:21):
You should really learn how to do this.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:23):
But just tell us,
David Kochberg (49:24):
in the podcast player that you're listening to
this on, you just should be ableto see a link right at the top
that says, of the descriptionthat says, see now I'm not
trained at this.
I'm not as experienced a host asyou.
In the podcast player.
Look at the description of thisepisode and there should be a
link that says, text us orsomething like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:42):
Great.
Text us your three superpower
David Kochberg (49:43):
Standard messaging rates apply.
I think it's a US number.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:46):
Okay, fine.
And if you don't wanna do thatbecause we just made it so
confusing, DM your threesuperpowers to me on Instagram
@themathguru.
Email them to me, Vanessa, atthe math guru.ca, and I will
share them all with Raj and wewill look through them all and
we will celebrate you.
Raj Shah (50:01):
I can't wait!
Vanessa Vakharia (50:01):
We can't wait.
Raj Shah (50:03):
Wait, we, we, we left off something extremely
important.
Vanessa Vakharia (50:05):
Wait.
There's more.
Raj Shah (50:06):
Yeah.
We don't know what your threesuperpowers are yet.
Vanessa Vakharia (50:10):
Oh God.
Uh, okay, let me, you're right,it is hard, right, you don't,
it's true.
And honestly, I'm really tryingto work on this, but it's so
hard'cause you feel like you'rebragging.
You like this and that.
Raj Shah (50:20):
I'm gonna call you out when you caveat,
Vanessa Vakharia (50:22):
Watch.
I'm not gonna, okay.
My three superpowers are, Idon't, I was about to be like, I
think I'm pretty funny.
I'm, I, I, I think I'm prettyfunny.
That's number one.
Do I have to, I'm not allowed tosay.
I think, fuck.
Superpower number one.
I am funny.
Superpower number two.
I do, I keep wanting to say, Ithink superpower number two.
(50:43):
I love asking questions.
That feels better than sayingI'm great at asking questions.
Okay.
Superpower number three.
Um, oh, oh.
Superpower number three is I cansee both sides of basically
everything.
I can always see the other side.
I can always find something incommon with someone.
Always,
Raj Shah (51:02):
That's cool.
And your eyeliner is on point.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:08):
honestly does look really good today.
Thank you.
Okay, final two questions.
Number one, if you could changeone thing about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Raj Shah (51:17):
No assessments,
Vanessa Vakharia (51:18):
Shit.
All right.
Number two.
Someone's like, Raj, I love yourwork, that's so cool, whatever.
But the thing is, I'm just not amath person.
What do you say?
Raj Shah (51:27):
No such thing as a math person.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:30):
Quick, efficient.
I loved it.
Raj Shah (51:32):
You've bought into a fake idea that doesn't exist.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:35):
And on that note, everyone, that's a wrap.
That was great.
I loved it.
Raj Shah (51:41):
too much fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:44):
Can we just talk about that moment for a
second?
Like Raj literally said hecouldn't remember the lyrics,
and then the second he heardthat one musical cue, he
suddenly could, I swear, everytime I re-listened to that clip,
I get goosebumps because Iwatched it happen.
Like I saw in his face thathesitation, that flicker of
recognition and then like, boom,he went for it.
It was this perfect humanreminder that memory and meaning
(52:08):
are not separate, they feed eachother.
And I know this might sound likea stretch, but I think this was
such a perfect analogy for howwe can help students overcome
math anxiety.
Some kids have no problemrecalling facts under pressure,
but others draw a blank, even ifdeep down they really know the
answers.
They need a little nudge.
Maybe it's the pressure of time,like maybe it's social anxiety.
(52:28):
Maybe it's this internal, I knowI know this, I know, I know
this, like, what's wrong withme, why can't I remember?
But if we allow students alittle cue, whatever personal
helping hand they need, they canbreak through those walls.
And before you know it, they'resinging John Legend live on a
podcast.
I don't know.
I loved every direction thisconversation went, and I was so
inspired by how thoughtful andhopeful Raj is and how much
(52:51):
faith he has in everyone to findmeaning in what they're
learning.
So here is your Math Therapyhomework this week.
Think about the last timesomething finally made sense,
like really clicked for you.
What made that happen?
Was it the pattern?
Was it the story, the why behindit?
And now I want you to bring thatenergy into your next math class
and see what kind of magichappens.
(53:12):
And if that moment with Raj hityou like it hit me, share this
episode.
Send it to a teacher who'sstruggling to connect with a
student, a parent who's tryingto help their kid find meaning
in their homework, or literallyanyone who's ever thought, I'm
just not a math person.
And you guys know the drill.
Text the podcast.
DM me on Instagram@themathguru,or email me at
vanessa@themathguru.ca.
(53:34):
Links for all of that are in theshow notes.
Tell me what this brought up foryou, I love hearing from you
guys.
And remember, my book MathTherapy is now available on all
audiobook platforms narrated byme, and my Math Therapy merch
line is out.
So head to maththerapy.com/merchand get yourself something cute.
Until next week, xo xo.
It is like, here's this medicine.
Take it.
It's terrible, you know, you'regonna need to balance your
checkbook someday.
My daughter's like, what's acheck?
People have books of thesethings?
A dream world we could just belike, math is, we should just
learn it'cause it's freakingfun.
Your ability to see thebrilliance in someone else is
completely correlated with yourability to see the brilliance in
(00:24):
yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:27):
Okay guys, tell me if this sounds familiar.
You can remember like everysingle lyric from Mr.
Brightside, but I ask you for asingle times table past the
sevens and your brain's like,Hmm, no.
Or maybe you're the opposite.
Maybe remembering math facts islike easy for you.
But when it comes to songlyrics, your brain is like swiss
cheese vibes.
Well, on today's episode, Dr.
(00:48):
Raj Shah and I risk it all anddive into one of the most
controversial topics in all ofmath ed: how and why
memorization became such a dirtyword.
Raj is one of those people wholike makes you rethink your
entire life with one sentence.
And in this episode, he's comingfor all of it.
The myths, the guilt, the, youjust have to memorize your facts
(01:09):
nonsense.
And that one haunting questionthat students always ask, but
teachers are terrified toanswer.
Why do we teach so much stuff inmath class that we'll never
actually use in real life?
You're gonna hear us break downwhy memorizing might not be evil
if used in the right context,why and how we should consider
students' emotions in class, andwhy maybe just maybe we should
(01:33):
stop, like, torturing kids withuseless math and start teaching
them the stuff that actuallymatters.
If you're a teacher who's everthought I don't know how to get
through to these kids, or aparent who's tired of math
homework meltdowns, or a humanwho's ever felt personally
victimized by the timestables,this is an episode you cannot
skip.
We laughed, we cried, and one ofus even started singing a John
(01:56):
Legend song.
I've said too much, so here's myconvo with Dr.
Raj Shah.
Hello.
Hi.
Raj Shah (02:05):
Hello.
Vanessa Vakharia (02:07):
I just finished your TED Talk.
First of all, very cool that youhave a TED Talk.
My first question is, do youhave to memorize that whole
thing?
Raj Shah (02:14):
You do.
They, they recommend that you,me, they give you training once
you get accepted and they wantyou to write the whole thing
out.
That is the hardest thing thatI've ever done.
I'm super curious, could youtell that I memorized the whole
thing word for word?
Vanessa Vakharia (02:28):
No, it's not that.
it's not like, oh, this soundedlike it was a script.
It's just, it's so tight.
Right?
Like you're making your point sosuccinctly.
Just that's a skill I don'thave, like I'm a very like outer
processor, so, everything issaid so concisely, did you
memorize it, was my thought.
I was like, well, I would.
You.
Okay.
Raj Shah (02:45):
it, and it was torture because I'm used to presenting,
but I'm not used to havingthings memorized.
And so I was up in, in my headthe whole time, like, don't get
any of the words wrong, don'tget any of the words wrong,
don't stumble, they're recordingthis, blah, blah, blah.
And it was tough.
I was sweating the whole time.
Uh, there's a moment.
I don't know if you noticed it.
I know where it is.
It's the very end.
(03:06):
And it's, it's hilarious becausesubconsciously I have this
thought of like, oh my goodness,I have made it to the end.
I have like three sentences leftand I have not goofed this thing
up yet.
And right then in that moment,there's a hiccup and I had to
like, catch my sentence andlike, I dunno if I restarted it
or missed a word or something,but it's in there.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:23):
Huh.
Raj Shah (03:24):
if you didn't, if you didn't catch it, you can go back
and try and catch it.
But that's one of the hardesttalks I've ever given.
And then I did a, did a fiveminute, what are those things
called, Ignite?
Vanessa Vakharia (03:32):
Well, like, that's what I was gonna say.
It reminds me of that vibe.
Yeah,
Raj Shah (03:35):
At CMC South last year, the year before on, uh, my
favorite show Ted Lasso,"Becurious, not judgmental".
And had to memorize that becauseyou gotta be on that 15 second
Cadence with those slideschanging all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:49):
That's why I don't wanna do it.
Raj Shah (03:51):
I don't know if I wanna do that to myself again.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:53):
I don't think I ever wanna do it.
And you know what it actuallymade me think of, like as you're
talking, it's making me thinkabout how like memorization is
such a hot topic in math, right?
The idea of like memorizing.
And I have to tell yousomething.
You know, I'm in a band withDavid and I am very good at
memorizing lyrics.
Like I can do it so easily.
Like I'm actually really good atmemorizing things.
(04:14):
And I was like debating withDavid, I'm like, is this a
useful skill though?
I'm like, you know, part of thereason I'm so good at memorizing
is so much of my education wasabout memorizing things,
memorizing scripts when you'rein drama class, memorizing your
presentations, that's how you'retaught to do it.
Memorizing all these formulas inmath class.
And I have to say I'm very goodat it.
But let me tell you how Imemorize a song and I'm
(04:36):
wondering if this is how youmemorize your TED Talk.
I'm not just memorizing, like,words on a page with no meaning.
I'm memorizing them and my cuesare all based in meaning.
So like, okay, I'm gonna singabout this thing now because in
the last verse I just talkedabout trying to like, be more
like myself, and I tried to likedo all these weird strategies,
(04:57):
so now logically I'm gonna talkabout how that made me feel.
Oh, that cues, the words thathave to do with feel, like, do
you know what I mean?
It's not like,
Raj Shah (05:04):
I do.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:05):
So is that what you did for your TED Talk?
Are you like,
Raj Shah (05:07):
a, that was a sneaky way to get us to talk about
Vanessa Vakharia (05:09):
I didn't mean to, I, that's not even, it's not
on my list.
That's not what I wanted to talkabout, but it just occurred to
me right now.
Raj Shah (05:16):
Uh, gosh, now I have so many thoughts like.
Vanessa Vakharia (05:19):
Okay.
Raj Shah (05:20):
I, I, I hated memorizing those speeches.
Hate is a very strong word.
It's just really challenging todo it.
And I think part of the reasonwas there was like this
perfectionism thing that likecreeped out, was like, oh, don't
get any of the words wrong,you're doomed.
And when I normally, I speak alot in front of audiences and I
(05:40):
get nervous beforehand, but Idon't memorize anything.
I have my slides and they,they're, they're my cues, like
you just said.
They give me the meaning and Iknow what goes with that.
Doesn't come out the same everytime.
But I do also feel like comesout authentically because, every
time I give the talk, it's adifferent version of me giving
the talk.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:01):
Mm.
Raj Shah (06:02):
And
Vanessa Vakharia (06:02):
Ooh.
Raj Shah (06:03):
even if I gave it last week and I'm giving it today,
I've already had someexperiences in the world that
may inform something about whatI emphasize or what I
de-emphasize, or a differentstory that I might put in or not
put in.
And when you memorize, you'resort of, you're locked in.
It's so constraining.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:23):
Hmm,
Raj Shah (06:23):
haven't really thought about this, but I, I'm wondering
now, like how does this apply tomath?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (06:30):
and then if I keep riffing, the other thing I will
say is that because of the waymath was taught, certainly when
I was growing up, and probablywhen most other people listening
to this were growing up, youcould get by just memorizing, at
least K 12.
And I was a good math memorizer,I think people, including
(06:50):
myself, mistook that as being"good at math", you
Vanessa Vakharia (06:56):
Yeah.
Yes.
I, I mean, yes.
Raj Shah (06:58):
really smart.
Like, was I smart or was I justgood at memorizing?
And also, what does smart evenmean?
You made a great point aboutmeaning, right?
Like there are many ways inwhich you can try to memorize
things.
And when you are able to connectthem and put meaning to them, I
think of it as like they sort ofattach like puzzle pieces to
things in your brain that werealready there, which means
(07:20):
they're gonna kind of staylocked in or more likely to stay
locked in than if you just havea random collection of facts
bopping around in there.
'Cause they're gonna get lost.
And I think that's what happensto a lot of kids is that we may
be trying to get them tomemorize, but if it's
disconnected, it probably won'tlast
Vanessa Vakharia (07:39):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I, sorry.
I don't know.
I, I, I really, that wasactually fascinating, but not,
Raj Shah (07:45):
Wait, I got one more thing.
I got
Vanessa Vakharia (07:46):
yeah.
Yeah.
Keep going.
Raj Shah (07:47):
learning how to, I'm learning how to sing.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:49):
I'm sorry.
What?
No, you're not.
Since when?
Raj Shah (07:54):
Since, uh, about two or three years,
Vanessa Vakharia (07:56):
Okay.
Raj Shah (07:57):
I would've called myself not a music person.
Not that anyone would saysomething crazy like
Vanessa Vakharia (08:03):
People say that all the time.
Raj Shah (08:04):
fixed mindset.
Um, I was like, okay, I'm gonnachallenge myself to sing.
And I, I was motivated.
I wanted to sing at my, uh, formy wife at our 25th anniversary.
But learning the lyrics to songsis really hard for me, really
hard.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:21):
Really
Raj Shah (08:21):
Even songs that I know really well, and you feel like,
you know, you know how, youknow, you have song lyrics in
your brain, right?
Like taking up space.
But when the lyrics, whensomeone else isn't singing them,
and when they're not on thescreen to read, I actually don't
know them that well.
So it's like, am I good atmemorizing math things, but not
as good at memorizing songs?
(08:42):
That's interesting.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:44):
I do have actually quite a few questions
here, because I feel that is agood question.
I think there'd be a fewadditional questions we would
have to ask to dig into it,because first of all, you're
memorizing math things, youcould say, okay, I'm good at,
you know, I'm memorizing maththings, but then I'm doing
something challenging with thatmemory because I'm on like a
high stakes test, so now I'm, oryou know, I'm standing in front
(09:05):
of people at a TED talk, so nowI've gotta recite something
while I'm under pressure.
Now, whereas with singing, it'sit, I would say equal, because
you're not only memorizinglyrics, then you have to do this
thing you're uncomfortable with,which is sing the lyrics.
So there's an additional levelof stress.
Raj Shah (09:20):
Sure.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:21):
I'm wondering why you're finding memorizing
lyrics challenging?
Is it because you're notattaching any meaning to them?
Raj Shah (09:30):
I don't know.
I, I was attaching meaning tothem.
The song I was trying to singwas, it was quite meaningful
Vanessa Vakharia (09:35):
What was it?
Raj Shah (09:36):
Uh, I,
Vanessa Vakharia (09:38):
We all wanna know.
Raj Shah (09:39):
sang, this is absurd, I sang All of Me by John Legend.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:44):
Oh my God, come on, give us a verse.
Give us something.
Raj Shah (09:47):
No.
Oh, goodness gracious.
I stepped into this.
But see, this is the thing, likeright now, without the music
playing in the background,right, without some sort of cue,
I literally don't remember whatthe first line of the song is.
I.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:04):
Yeah.
But that makes sense becauseyour memory of that lyric is
attached to the sonic, uh,representation of the music.
It's actually those things.
It's like when a smell invokes amemory,
Raj Shah (10:15):
the, the, him playing the
Vanessa Vakharia (10:17):
you'd get it.
Raj Shah (10:18):
It would probably
Vanessa Vakharia (10:19):
It would it.
Raj Shah (10:20):
I need that before I can start it.
Also, the stress of you justmaking me do this like on a
podcast,
Vanessa Vakharia (10:25):
really freaking you out.
We're still waiting for you tosing the verse.
Raj Shah (10:28):
it, shut the system down.
Like, wait, what?
How does the song, what are eventhe words?
I, it must say all of me at somepoint in the song.
I don't
Vanessa Vakharia (10:35):
Oh,
Raj Shah (10:36):
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (10:38):
there it is.
Raj Shah (10:38):
"Do without your smart mouth draw me in and you kicking
me out.
You got my head spinning.
No kidding.
You can't pin me down." Thereyou go.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:53):
My
Raj Shah (10:54):
I did it.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:54):
I did not think you were gonna do it.
First of all, you sound amazing.
Raj Shah (10:58):
Hey, thanks.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:59):
I can't believe you just said
Raj Shah (11:00):
I'm on
Vanessa Vakharia (11:00):
you just, you do, and you just did it acapella
because we turned the music off.
This is what the fans wannahear, like we should, we could
just end right now.
This is, this is, okay.
First of all, let's.
Raj Shah (11:10):
you also told me that you edit this so we can edit
that whole thing out
Vanessa Vakharia (11:13):
We could, but we won't, and we're in charge.
And you've already signed yourrelease form.
Okay, so now listen, the reasonI brought up the TED talk, by
the way also, but now I've gottasay something else, which
there's no reason I thought wewould talk about it all, but I'm
so glad you brought up.
You know what's funny about thatI'm not a music person thing,
you'll hear this thing all thetime where you o obviously
(11:34):
always hear people say, I'm nota math person.
Because people deeply believethat they are born with this
thing in their brain they eitherhave or don't have.
Now the thing, the only otherthing I've found that people say
with the same level of, offrequency is I'm not musical.
I have no musical talent.
I'm not able to sing.
Raj Shah (11:53):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:54):
People think it's like a physical thing,
right?
Like your vocal chords.
Now, I don't know if you foundthis, but I started working with
a vocal coach years and yearsago.
And I cannot, I was like, well,this is my range, I'm an alto,
this is how I sing, this is mytone of voice.
Whatever I have gained over anoctave of musical notes.
And she's like, you could do waymore.
Raj Shah (12:13):
cool.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:14):
Well, it's so cool.
But it busted my own limitingbelief of being like, well, this
is, certain people just havethese voices.
Raj Shah (12:21):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:21):
found that?
Raj Shah (12:24):
Uh, my range has definitely improved.
Not an octave.
Part of the reason I did it wasto force me out of the box.
Right.
Like, and going back to yourpoint about I'm not a x, y, Z
person.
I think art is another one.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:37):
art is another one sometimes.
Raj Shah (12:39):
I can't draw, I can't draw.
I,
Vanessa Vakharia (12:41):
Or athletic people do that too.
Raj Shah (12:43):
um, yeah, maybe a little bit with physical things
too.
Sports.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:47):
It.
Raj Shah (12:47):
Yeah.
So I guess there are, uh, we,math is not alone in this fixed
Vanessa Vakharia (12:51):
No, it's just like the most frequent.
It's the most frequent.
Raj Shah (12:54):
to us.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:55):
Well, and also there's the most pressure on it.
Like, okay, you can't paint, youcan't like play a sport, like
it's not gonna affect you forthe rest of your life.
But as you said in your TEDTalk, which is literally the
whole fucking reason I broughtup your TED Talk, and 15 minutes
later we're gonna actually go tothis, you start your TED Talk by
saying, and this literally, wow,the segue I'm coming up with
right now is just blowing my ownfucking mind.
(13:15):
You say, as a society, we'vedone a really good job of
telling everyone, if you can'tdo math, you are in trouble.
But we've done a really poor jobof making people feel like they
can do math or want to do math.
Now, I want you to elaborate onthat, but just to tie the bow on
what we were saying, we don'ttell people if you can't draw or
you can't play basketball,you're in trouble.
(13:36):
So there's just way lesspressure on those things.
People don't have necessarily asmuch anxiety around it because
it's like, I can't do it.
Well, fine.
Whereas with math, it's like,you can't do it, you're fucked.
Raj Shah (13:46):
You're doomed.
You're doomed.
Vanessa Vakharia (13:48):
So tell me more about that statement.
Raj Shah (13:51):
So speaking of like things that people have decided
they can't do or they're not
Vanessa Vakharia (13:55):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (13:56):
We touched on the word smart.
When I think about it, I thinkfor the most part have put a lot
of connection betweenmathematical ability or
proficiency and smartness.
If you are really good atwriting and reading, we probably
don't call you smart.
We probably call you like abookworm or a writer or
Vanessa Vakharia (14:16):
God.
Raj Shah (14:17):
right?
If you're really good at sports,you're not smart, you're
athletic, right?
We could go down the list.
I could do this forever,
Vanessa Vakharia (14:24):
Like Picasso isn't smart.
He's a talented genius.
Raj Shah (14:27):
smart.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:29):
Yep, yep, yep.
Raj Shah (14:30):
it's the one subject they're like tied together like
this.
So in our culture we've madethis like tie.
So like, and, and then obviouslyI think in this culture we've
also made it that you wouldwanna be smart as opposed to not
be smart, which means you betterbe good at math.
That is lot of freakingpressure.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:47):
Pause on that for a second.
That is so much pressure.
But then you go on to say thenext part, which is I think even
adds to the pressure, which isthen we make it seem like only
certain people can do it.
Raj Shah (14:59):
Yeah.
And that I always wonder like,is that an accident
Vanessa Vakharia (15:05):
Mm.
Raj Shah (15:06):
master design?
But I'm not ready to get intothat in this
Vanessa Vakharia (15:08):
I'm ready.
And it's obviously the secondone, but go on.
Raj Shah (15:11):
I don't have form thoughts about it yet,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:13):
Okay.
Raj Shah (15:13):
um.
we live in a culture thatbelieves this idea, this absurd
idea that some people can domath and some people can't.
And I've heard you talk aboutlike your research into the
media and the way it portraysmath and all the things, right?
Like every sign that you canpossibly get in Western or
American culture is like mathpeople are introverted, they're
(15:36):
quiet, they're super special,they're gifted genius, and along
with that genius comes all thequirkiness and it's like, no, I
can, I can do math and be sortof normal.
And so what if I'm quirky?
It's like both things at thesame time
Vanessa Vakharia (15:51):
I kind of think also what's cool is not
only does it make sense, butyou're kind of saying, we've
done this really good job offreaking people out, but then
we've done this horrible job of,what did you say, I wanna make
sure, of making people feel likethey can do math or even like
making them want to do math.
Raj Shah (16:07):
to do it.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:08):
Yeah.
So it's like you,
Raj Shah (16:10):
it is like, here's this medicine.
Take it.
It's terrible,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:13):
but so why?
Tell me.
Raj Shah (16:15):
13 years.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:16):
Tell me, tell me why you think that is.
Like, okay, we're not gonna gointo our conspiracy theory of
maybe it's by some grand design.
Let's pre, let's pretendeveryone's very
well-intentioned.
Okay?
Cause what we're we're gonna getto next is that you have all of
these incredible ways of makingmath fun and irresistible, and
bringing out the brilliance ineveryone, right?
Your eyes are opening widethere.
(16:36):
Like, are you agreeing or areyou saying no, Vanessa, that's
completely incorrect.
Raj Shah (16:39):
I guess I'm agreeing.
I, I wonder sometimes about factthat math is useful,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:48):
Okay.
Raj Shah (16:48):
that you're going to quote, unquote, need it in real
life, whatever the heck thatmeans.
And these like tropes that wethat people still use to this
day that I just laugh at.
Like, you know, you're gonnaneed to balance your checkbook
someday.
And like my daughter's like,what's a check?
People have books of thesethings that I don't even know
what a check is.
What, what?
Nobody, nobody is balancing acheckbook in 2025.
(17:12):
This is absurd.
But yeah, you're gonna need it.
Like, can we just be honest andsay most of the stuff you learn
in K 12 math, you're never goingto need.
Most of the skills.
I'm
Vanessa Vakharia (17:25):
Yep,
Raj Shah (17:25):
not the thinking, right, but the skills, you're
not! Long division, don't needit.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:30):
Don't need it.
Raj Shah (17:31):
don't need it.
Factoring, polynomials don'tneed
Vanessa Vakharia (17:34):
SOHCAHTOA.
Why?
Raj Shah (17:35):
Polynomials don't need that either.
Trig functions don't need it.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:38):
Yeah.
We don't need this stuff.
We don't need it.
Raj Shah (17:40):
Most of the math that is in the school of math.
Like if we were being reallyhonest questioning our own value
in the world as teachers, likeyou don't need the skills.
A hundred percent, math givesyou an amazing way, an amazing
lens through which to see theworld that's super duper useful.
Like being skeptical of beingable to quantify things, being
(18:01):
able to look at data and decidewhether this makes sense or that
makes sense or that conclusion,or correlation and causation and
all these things that you canlearn through the study of
mathematics, super valuable.
I want everyone to have thatability to put that lens on when
it is appropriate.
and like okay if you didn'tmemorize all your facts, you're
(18:24):
still gonna live a perfectlylife.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:30):
but tell me this, okay, because you know
what, I don't know when yourinterview's coming out in
relation to these other people.
Maybe it's come out, maybe ithasn't, but this week I
interviewed two moms.
The conversation was, I actuallydon't even know if I can publish
it'cause I might get canceled.
But it was, it was heartbreakingbecause these moms were like,
Raj Shah (18:47):
Hmm,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:48):
math was horrible for us, it's horrible
for our kids, they just feellike shit all the time.
But then they just were like,why aren't they learning this
stuff?
Why the fuck are they learningit?
And I was like, you know, Idon't have much of a good answer
and I'm so glad you just broughtit up.
'Cause I really wanna ask you,you're telling me all this stuff
is useless.
I, I mean, I had some answers.
I was like, well, they'relearning it because maybe if
(19:10):
they wanna go into a collegeprogram where, right, like a, a
part of it is a likepreventative almost.
It's like, well maybe you'regonna wanna do this thing and
then you need the prereq this,or like, well, they need the
skills that they're learning.
Exactly.
Like you said, they needskepticism thinking.
But dude, why are they learningthis shit if there's so much
other stuff they could belearning?
Can you tell me why?
Raj Shah (19:29):
Why we have all that stuff in the K 12?
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
Yeah, why?
Raj Shah (19:31):
Yeah, because we always did.
Vanessa Vakharia (19:34):
Oh shit.
Raj Shah (19:35):
there was probably a time when knowing all these
things and having them superduper committed to your memory
and being able to calculatequickly arithmetic things was
useful.
Like my dad grew up with sliderules.
Okay, we
Vanessa Vakharia (19:47):
Same.
Raj Shah (19:47):
rules anymore, right?
Like we have calculators and wehave phones that you can just
ask what 42 divided by 19 is andget an answer like, super
accurate, super quick.
So I don't feel like we've keptup with that.
And then the, my other half ofit would be, and I was answering
(20:09):
your other question, which is Ithink the fact that math is
useful in real life, we've likedrank too much of that Kool-Aid
Vanessa Vakharia (20:14):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (20:15):
and convinced ourselves that like everybody's
doomed if they don't learn allthis stuff and um, put all this
pressure on it and all thatstuff.
And it's like, what if we justlike it?
What if a dream world we couldjust be like, math is, we should
just learn it'cause it'sfreaking fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:31):
Right.
That was what you were gettingat.
Raj Shah (20:32):
Puzzles are fun,
Vanessa Vakharia (20:33):
Yes.
Raj Shah (20:34):
you know, like, one of my favorite examples to give is
like escape rooms.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:39):
Oh my God.
I love escape rooms.
Raj Shah (20:41):
Okay?
So believe it or not, people whowill claim to not be math people
also love escape
Vanessa Vakharia (20:47):
Right.
Raj Shah (20:48):
But what is an escape room?
It's absurd.
You're locking yourself in aroom with some friends for 60
minutes and you're taking atest.
This is what you're doing, Andyou're paying money to do this
for someone to do this to you,like giving up your most
precious resource, which istime.
(21:11):
But if I gave you a math test,you'd be like, oh, math, this is
terrible.
You
Vanessa Vakharia (21:14):
is boring.
Raj Shah (21:15):
Yeah, like we just took all the fun stuff out, left
it, we called it a K 12 math,and then we're like, how come
nobody likes this?
Well, because you took all,every, anything that could
possibly could be good has beensucked out of it.
Now, of course, over the lastfew years, I think people are
trying to infuse back curiosity,wonder, puzzle, problem solving,
(21:36):
all those things, just for thesake of those things, because
that's what human beings want todo.
We love challenge.
We love being curious.
We love cha.
You know, I said challengetwice.
We love doing these things.
We like risk taking.
People like take risks.
Do it in a math class.
Take some risks, put up aproblem that you think nobody
can solve and see what happens.
(21:57):
Chaos will ensue.
That'll be fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:59):
You've really just made me think of something
because, well, a few things, butwhat you said a few beats ago
about saying, I think it'sbecause we are so, um, bent on
being like, it's this thingyou're going to use.
That actually just really struckme because I started mentally
(22:19):
being like going through theother subjects.
You know what I mean?
Like, I was like, okay, hold ona second.
Is this gonna hold up?
And yeah, like, okay, so like,yeah, math is this thing it's
going to use, so it ha it'sgonna be like utilitarian
basically, and therefore the twocannot coexist, right?
Like, we're just gonna, it hasto be like, we can't have
anything fun in that.
(22:39):
And now I'm kind of going downyour path of like, okay, so
like, let's imagine I mean,what's something where you don't
think you're gonna use it, likeart,
Raj Shah (22:48):
History.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:48):
Yeah.
Art or history?
History is pretty boring.
But yeah, like, Yeah.
Let's say something like that.
Art or history, like you'reapproaching it.
Not like, alright guys, you needto make sure you leave with
these skills, memorize and youknow what you're doing.
Because in the real world you'regonna need them for a job.
It's more about it exploring,like history is like all the
stories and the tales and thecharacter and like whatever.
(23:10):
And art's, like all aboutimagination and curiosity.
Find this thing you like andjust go for it.
Try this strategy, try that.
Like, but imagine we approachmath that way.
Raj Shah (23:19):
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:20):
But
Raj Shah (23:20):
we think, if we take the history analogy, like
there's one way history istaught where it's like you need
to know the
Vanessa Vakharia (23:26):
the dates.
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:28):
the people and the
Vanessa Vakharia (23:29):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:30):
and the rulers and whatever, right?
And you pro if you had a teacherlike that, you memorized all
that stuff.
You tried to spit it back out onthe test, and then you
Vanessa Vakharia (23:37):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (23:38):
remember any of it.
But if you had a good historyteacher, they would tell you the
story, right?
They'd immerse you in the story,the, the intrigue of like, why
these people felt this way andwere at war with those and what,
you know, like you get into thestory of it and then maybe you
would notice that, oh, somethings like that are happening
today in today's world.
(23:58):
You'd make those connections.
That would be a much moremeaningful way, I think.
Not that I've ever taughthistory, but that feels more
meaningful to me.
And maybe it's like that, like Itry to, I don't know a lot of
math history, but I try toinfuse as much of it as I can
Vanessa Vakharia (24:12):
There's like some juicy stuff like
Raj Shah (24:14):
Yeah.
Or like the kids were laughingthere, you know what's off,
because I was like, you know,there's this guy Archimedes, who
was in the bathtub, and I don'teven know if this story's true
or not, but it doesn't matter.
And he was so happy about thewater flowing outta the bathtub
he ran through the streets nakedand they were like, you know,
middle schoolers, like, what didhe just say?
And then the one kid couldn'tstop saying Eureka for the
entire class.
(24:35):
But
Vanessa Vakharia (24:35):
Oh my God.
Raj Shah (24:36):
something he will not forget.
He's
Vanessa Vakharia (24:39):
But
Raj Shah (24:39):
that.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:40):
I, this is, I, I mean, I've always said this,
I'm like, I think we shouldtreat mathematicians like celeb
culture and talk about all thetea behind it and be like, you
know what?
Raj Shah (24:49):
that.
I love it.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:49):
I'm it.
So into it.
The thing is though, now whatI'm wondering is,'cause
obviously people are gonna belike, well, hold on a second
though, but you do need math.
Like they need skills.
But I'd like to, I'd like to getout of this dichotomy of it's
either fun or it's functional.
Like why can't it be both?
Like I think you're not saying,scrap any necessary math skills.
(25:09):
You're just sort of right.
Like you're like, no, let'steach math skills that matter.
But also.
Raj Shah (25:16):
yeah.
And I, I'm glad you gave me theopportunity to say that.
Like, I love to say provocativethings like nobody needs long
subtraction and long divisionand all the other,
Vanessa Vakharia (25:24):
But nobody does need long division.
Raj Shah (25:26):
Fair enough.
I'm not arguing against all ofthe things that are in math
class.
There's lots of good stuff.
I'm trying to find the ways tomake the stuff that is there fun
and that the reason we'relearning it, yes it has
practical value, but like, we'rejust learning'cause it's fun to
learn it.
Vanessa Vakharia (25:44):
Well, you know what actually might be a good,
almost like a bridge for us itmight be English class.
because I, I, I kind of feellike that's a class where, okay,
you're gonna need these skills.
Like you need to learn how toread, right?
You need to know how to read andwrite, you will need that.
But we do it, let's forget highschool for a second,'cause I
don't wanna talk about essaysand shit, that's debatable if
(26:06):
you even need that with ChatGPT.
Just kidding.
Okay.
But like, let's take it to likeelementary school, we're
teaching kids how to read.
It's utilitarian, as in you needthe skill, but the way we do it
is through like fun ways, likestories, things you're
interested in.
Right?
Raj Shah (26:20):
Thousand percent, yes.
And the analogy to storybooksfor math is games.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
Tell me about your whole video game thing,
Raj Shah (26:29):
Yeah.
but you're making a a, anamazing point.
How do we get kids to beinterested in reading?
It's picture books, right?
Like when you're really littleand we've convinced everyone
that you should read to yourchild every night, right?
That's a thing.
We should be convincing peoplethat you should play one game
with your child every night.
Because every game that you canpossibly think of has math in
(26:54):
it.
Even Scrabble.
That's a math game.
It's not a word game.
it's a math game.
Vanessa Vakharia (26:58):
Oh, hot takes, talk about saying provocative
things.
I'd like to pause and note thatDr.
Raj Shaw here did not say youshould be doing a math worksheet
with your kid every night.
He said, you should play onegame and that, because I get so
many parents saying, well, whatdo I do with my kids at night?
(27:19):
What math thing?
And I, I, this is the mostbeautiful and important thing.
Regardless if you're a parentwho loves math or doesn't love
math, we all love games.
And any game you play will bedoing the work of teaching your
child a math skill.
Raj Shah (27:33):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:36):
Sorry, I really interrupted you.
Raj Shah (27:38):
get to bond over
Vanessa Vakharia (27:39):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (27:39):
to have fun.
When you give worksheets, youknow there are some kids who
will gobble up worksheets andgreat, you know, I might've been
one of those kids, but thosekids are not normal.
And if you're having to forceyour child to do
Vanessa Vakharia (27:54):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (27:54):
creating a negative association for your child to
math and to you.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:02):
Ooh.
Raj Shah (28:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And later in life, when they'rewhatever and you're like,
fighting them about math, it'sgonna, like, it started when you
started that.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:13):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (28:13):
blaming anyone, right.
But I'm just trying to bring anawareness to like, I listen to
your podcast about success wedefine success.
And the thing I loved most aboutit was at the end you talked
about how do I want to feel?
We live in a culture that ishyper rational.
We value thinking, intelligence,math to the highest level,
(28:37):
right?
But we have disconnected fromfeeling.
What you feel in your body.
We've disconnected from itcompletely.
Most of us.
Vanessa Vakharia (28:48):
Mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (28:49):
I'm just learning how to reconnect to it.
What do I want my child to feelwhen they're experiencing
mathematical things?
And if doing the worksheet istorture, I'm now creating an
association with mathematics andpain.
(29:09):
And that is really hard to breakapart.
You would need, wait for it,Math Therapy.
Do you see what I did there?
Vanessa Vakharia (29:19):
So
Raj Shah (29:19):
It's freaking brilliant.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:20):
it was,
Raj Shah (29:21):
so good right now.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:22):
it was expert level,
Raj Shah (29:24):
But it's
Vanessa Vakharia (29:25):
but it's, what you're saying is so important.
Yeah.
Keep going.
It really is.
Raj Shah (29:28):
a game with you and we're having fun, we are
bonding.
I am creating an association, apositive association between you
and me and the game, and at somelevel math, even if they don't
know that we're sneakily doing
Vanessa Vakharia (29:42):
Mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (29:43):
Because when they do see a problem in math class, not
a worksheet, that part of theirmind, that was the game playing
part of their mind is gonna kickin and think, oh, this is like a
game.
It's like a puzzle.
I can do this.
Let me play around with this.
And it's okay if I lose'cause Ilose in games all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:59):
Hmm.
Raj Shah (30:00):
That's it.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:01):
Oh, I mean, no, that's not, I mean, that's
just, I feel like the beginningand it sets such a strong
foundation for so much of theway, I think we can think about
this because you're right nowtalking about like, you know,
like a parent doing somethingwith their kid, but my mind is
going to, oh my gosh, like mostkids and adults actually have
that negative association withmath.
(30:22):
Not just from parents doing ornot doing worksheets.
From school.
What is the feeling?
We, and and this is what Ialways do focus on with math
therapy, you know, there's thatquote that says something like,
I can't remember who said it, soI'm sorry.
But, uh, kids don't remember thethings you say or teach them.
They remember how you make themfeel.
And the truth is that,
Raj Shah (30:41):
a Toni Morrison.
I think don't remember how you
Vanessa Vakharia (30:45):
Oh,
Raj Shah (30:47):
they remember how you made
Vanessa Vakharia (30:48):
that's it.
You're right.
That is exactly what it is.
Raj Shah (30:50):
Okay, there you go.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:51):
Can you fact check that over there, please?
Toni Morrison.
Thanks.
Okay.
Um, you're right.
It wasn't even, it wasn'tanything to do with education,
but it was exactly that.
Here's the thing is like a very,unfortunately, when, you know,
if you're a teacher listening tothis, a kid is probably walking
into your classroom with baggagearound math.
They just are.
And a lot of that baggage isnegative because so many of the
feelings associated with mathare about being scolded for
(31:14):
being wrong, being told you'redoing something the wrong way.
Not doing something fast enough,feeling like you're not smart.
It's just like icky, ugh,whatever.
And we do constantly, I do findin math, in the, in the math ed
bubble we're in, where there'sall this wonderful professional
development.
Everyone's like, curiosity,wonder, joy.
And I keep thinking to myself,okay, cool babe.
Like I, yes, we want kids to becurious and wonder, we want them
(31:37):
to be playing games, butthey're, right now, most of them
are scared and they feel likeanything that is called math is
going to elicit those samenegative feelings they've,
they've already had.
Right?
It's like, you know, we couldget into very deep into like
their childhood parts havealready developed that
association.
So, what you're kind of sayingis you don't, even if you're a
(32:01):
parent or you wanna do somethingexternal, or even if you're a
teacher, would you say that oneway to break this and to at
least start with getting intotheir curiosity, is to just drop
the word math from it and dosomething tangential to math,
like playing a game?
Raj Shah (32:14):
Math is a four letter word for a lot of people.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
It is
Raj Shah (32:18):
Maybe.
Maybe.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:20):
so like even, I'm just thinking if you're a
teacher and you're like, Ireally wanna do this, I would
almost be like, don't even callit a math game.
Right.
You could just be like, we'regonna solve a puzzle.
We're gonna play a game.
Raj Shah (32:28):
Don't call it a math game.
Are you nuts?
It's a game.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:33):
It's a game.
It's a game.
Raj Shah (32:35):
Don't sabotage yourself by like, Hey kid, we're
gonna go play a math game.
Are you nuts?
Vanessa Vakharia (32:41):
Well,
Raj Shah (32:42):
a game.
Vanessa Vakharia (32:42):
playing a game and I also think that, you know,
some people will be like, yeah,but what about they're not
learning like addition or, orthrough the game.
But what you're saying is yes,but when they go into the class
and solve any type of problemand face any type of challenge,
which is what they're doing allthe time, those same skills that
they've built while playingwhatever game with you will
(33:03):
translate into the classroom.
So yes, they've built skills ofresilience, perseverance, not
worrying if they're losing,liking a challenge, trying to
think creatively beingcuriosity.
Now they go into school, theylearn integers, they don't know,
integers, but all of a sudden itopens them up to being more
curious and resilient aboutlearning the thing of integers,
the concept and they're moreable to absorb it.
(33:25):
When students have a morepositive math identity, when
they feel less anxious ingeneral, when you're in a flow
state, when you're curious, youwill learn more.
Raj Shah (33:35):
You had mentioned like if the, they learned addition
while playing the game, that'lltranslate.
I don't know for sure if that'strue or not.
I kind of has to be, but but thefeeling, I think translates.
And what I try to tell teacherswhen they're, I don't know what
word to use, but when they'restruggling with kids who don't
appear to want to engage inmathematics and have tuned out
(33:56):
and all the things, is like yougotta get the attitude and the
mindset first.
I know you, everyone feels likeif I could just get them to
memorize their multiplicationfacts, then we could do the fun
math.
And so they, they like defaultto going back to that which is
really boring.
And all the things, because ifyou're older and you're supposed
(34:17):
to know that, then there's allthat, all that feeling is gonna
come with that, right?
Like, here we go, we'reremediating you guys again'cause
you didn't get it the firstseven times, so we're gonna do
it again.
And we're just, we're actuallysolidifying the idea that you
are the kind of kids who don'tget this stuff.
Right.
And I think we just, we don'tthink about feelings at all.
(34:38):
My number one job when you comein that room is to make you feel
safe, to make you feel seen, tomake you feel heard.
Right?
If I can't do those things, Igot no shot.
And then after that to make youfeel like this thing that we're
doing is fun.
You're capable of doingsomething.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:55):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (34:56):
Maybe you don't get right answers yet.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:58):
Sure.
Raj Shah (34:58):
But you can do something.
Vanessa Vakharia (34:59):
You can do something.
Raj Shah (35:00):
Things like Annie Fetter's"notice and wonder",
right?
Vanessa Vakharia (35:03):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (35:03):
Everyone can notice.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:05):
Talking about feelings, I wanna kind of
continue a bit with it, becausewe don't talk about it a lot
because we are so disconnectedfrom our bodies and like
Raj Shah (35:12):
yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:13):
Also emotion and feeling are like bad words
almost.
Raj Shah (35:17):
We've been taught to like, push'em down and not worry
about them,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:21):
Yeah.
Raj Shah (35:22):
we have all these other problems.
Which, real quick about bodylanguage
Vanessa Vakharia (35:25):
Take your time.
Raj Shah (35:26):
This may resonate, if there's a teacher watching, uh,
listening.
Read their body language, I wassomewhere, when we were just
talking with adults, andeventually, you know, it comes
out that I teach math for aliving and then, you know,
there's the, uh, but I, but forthe first time when somebody was
giving me that reaction, Iwatched their bodies and I was
(35:49):
sitting at the end of the tableand these two women were sitting
like this.
And literally when they werelike talking about themselves in
math, their whole systemcollapsed.
Like they went, oh, math.
So like that tells you that allof that is literally in their
entire body.
The idea that they can't do mathand all the sadness that they
(36:09):
have, pain and suffering andtrauma, if we're gonna use that
word.
Right?
It's all in the body.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:15):
mm-hmm.
Raj Shah (36:16):
you're not going to solve that.
I, there's no way I can solvethat by being like, Hey, let's
work on your multiplicationfacts.
If you can just memorize whatseven times eight is, I
guarantee you'll feel betterabout yourself.
It's not gonna work.
Vanessa Vakharia (36:28):
Well, it makes me think too of like kids
slouching and being called likelazy and it's like, so sit up in
your chair, da, da da.
It's like if somebody is in thatposition, there is something
taking over their whole body.
And not only should that, isthat really actually helpful for
teachers?
Because I always say it's likeyou can look for very like,
explicit signs of like mathanxiety and trauma in things
(36:49):
like that.
Like a kid with his head down orjust she's slouching or just
like eyes darting around theroom or arms crossed.
Like those are signs that likesomething is not okay.
But I think we often are like,oh, just like sit up and do your
work.
And it's like, that is thebiggest, we should be grateful
for that gift.
It's like we are now seeing howdeep this like math trauma runs
(37:11):
for this person and you're soright that the way to an
embodied experience is neverthrough the mind.
So if we are dealing withsomething that has gotten that
far in a student's body, the wayto do it is not to be like, just
do more questions or just listento me explain this concept.
Right?
Like somatically, we have to getthem, we have to meet them where
(37:34):
they are, which is in theirbodies.
Raj Shah (37:36):
Yeah.
So educate me, what would you doin that situation?
Vanessa Vakharia (37:40):
I think it can be really scary.
Because educators all want thebest for their students.
We want to help our students.
Sometimes that's how I feel whenI talk about math anxiety and
math therapy is like, I havethese math teachers who are
like, well, I know how to teachmath, but I don't know how to
like, talk to someone abouttheir feelings.
Like, no one trained you on howto do that.
And I, I really get that.
(38:01):
So I think we first have to belike, the more you know, the
more you know you don't know,you know, like the more we
learn, the more we realize wedon't know.
And that's cool.
And you know why that's cool?
Because as educators we are alsolifelong learners.
That's what makes us greateducators.
I would say a, an entry pointinto like, if a student is in
(38:21):
front of you, arms crossed,slouching, like obvious, you
know, I'm not gonna say obvious'cause it's not obvious, we're
learning what that means.
They're shut down becausethere's math trauma that lives
in their body.
They have a series of badexperiences.
They don't feel like they can doit.
We don't know the exact thing.
Honestly, my first tip is to getto the feeling center.
Whatever you're comfortablewith, you're comfortable at
(38:43):
asking questions'cause you're ateacher.
But instead of asking a mathquestion, crouching down,
getting down next to'em soyou're at their level and being
like, are you okay?
Like, what are you feeling rightnow?
That's it.
It can be, that simple.
And I am, I am thinking this'cause it's really interesting.
I just interviewed a grade 11student for the podcast, which
I've never done.
And she said, she doesn't knowanything about all this Building
(39:05):
Thinking class, which doesn'tknow any of the shit.
And she said what made such abig difference is she had this
teacher when the teacher cameover to talk to her about math,
the teacher would crouch downand get on her level and say,
Hey, I can tell you're feelingstressed, don't worry about it,
like we get, we're gonna getthrough this together.
As, and she was like, all myother teachers would stand above
me and hover over me.
(39:25):
And it, it would be so obviousthat they were impatient.
They just, and I was like, it's,you know, you're talking about
body language.
We can read a student's bodylanguage, they can read ours.
You know, so just getting, youknow, I won't get into this,
'cause now it's really in theweeds, but I know you and I have
been talking about the nervoussystem and one of the things
I'll say is just know this ifyou're listening, don't worry
about the terminology, but we ashumans seek to co-regulate.
(39:50):
That means we seek to feel safearound other people through
energy.
So the biggest thing you can do,crouch down next to a student,
look at them kindly in the eyes,relax your body and really feel
sympathetic towards them.
And just like we're on the sameteam.
And that's the starting point.
You don't need to be like, andnow we're gonna do some deep
(40:10):
breathing, like, if you'recomfortable with that, cool.
But really just the question,how are you feeling right now?
Like, let's just take a beat,don't worry about the math, tell
me how you feel.
And then my next favoritequestion is, do you feel like
you've had like negativeexperiences with math before?
Raj Shah (40:24):
Oh.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:26):
We're talking about feelings.
You can't logic out a feeling.
It's emotion, if someone is, isin an emotional state, you've
gotta react emotionally.
You get what I'm saying?
Did that, does that help, do youthink?
Raj Shah (40:39):
That helps.
That helps.
The, the word that just keepsflying into my brain is
compassion.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:43):
Compassion, yes.
Raj Shah (40:45):
that you know how to
Vanessa Vakharia (40:46):
Yes.
Raj Shah (40:47):
for someone, can you do that?
And I get that there's like 29other students in the room and
so you can't spend minutes withthis pers, you know, with this
child who's in pain, but findthose moments where you can show
that compassion, like you said,get down at their level.
For sure.
And I love that you said like,ask a question more about
(41:07):
feelings and less about logic.
That's, that's good advice.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:11):
And also keep in mind like we're adults and we
often don't know why, I mean,think about, I just think about
all the therapy I've done wherelike think I know everything and
then my therapist will ask me aquestion and all of a sudden
some story will unravel that I'mlike.
Wait, what?
I don't even know what's comingoutta my mouth right now.
I didn't realize I evenremembered this memory and all
(41:33):
of a sudden, blah.
And I'm an adult that's beenthrough therapy, so our student
is not sitting there thinking, Iknow what's going on, I've got
boatloads of math trauma.
They, they're not, all they arethinking is, I, I hate this.
I don't feel good,
Raj Shah (41:45):
Yeah.
I hate this or there's somethingwrong with me.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:47):
or there's something wrong with me, which
is me in therapy all the time.
There's something wrong with me.
Raj Shah (41:52):
Yeah, there's a book by Dr.
Becky Kennedy.
it's called Good Inside.
The premise of the book iseveryone is good inside.
And you know, I read that and itreally, the moment I read it
where I was in my life, it justlike hit me like a ton of
bricks.
And I've been going around nowsaying something almost
(42:15):
identical, which is that everychild is brilliant and,
realizing now that my job, myentire job, is just to help them
recognize the ways in whichthey're brilliant and reinforce
them.
And if that's all I did, I'msuccessful.
(42:35):
And then I'll layer on some mathevery once in a while.
But like the math, like watchingthem do math gives me the
opportunity to see all the waysin which they're brilliant.
To me, when I'm doing that, itis so much fun to teach kids
math.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:53):
I love this so much because I not to make this
about me, but I will for onesecond.
I, I always just say the goal ofMath Therapy, like has nothing
to do with right answers ormarks, is just to help every
child build a betterrelationship with math and
therefore themselves, right?
It's about self-worth.
Like, that's all I want.
But one question I have for you,because I love this idea of
(43:15):
being like, my only job, again,it kind of goes back to that
Toni Morrison quote.
Is it Toni Morrison?
We haven't decided, but thatquote of being like, at the end
of the day, kids are gonnaremember how you made them feel.
And there's no better gift.
There's no better thing you cangive a student than to have them
leaving your care thinking, Ifeel brilliant, I feel really
good about, like, that's,there's nothing better you can
(43:36):
do for like them as anindividual.
Yeah.
And us as a generation.
Like we, you know, like justthat feeling of worth translates
to every area of life.
Not just for themselves and whatthey end up doing because they
now have the confidence, howthey treat other people.
But I have a question.
Do you have any tips for whatyou can say at the end of like a
(43:56):
lesson or a challenge orsomething, like any verbal cues
that can help a child leave alesson feeling brilliant.
Like, do you have any thingslike, regardless of how they
performed on a task or anythinglike that, is there anything a
teacher listening can just startincorporating to help kids feel
really like they're brilliant?
Raj Shah (44:15):
Your ability to see the brilliance in someone else
is completely correlated withyour ability to see the
brilliance in yourself.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:27):
Oh my God,
Raj Shah (44:27):
So step one is recognize all the ways in which
you are brilliant and gifted.
Do not minimize them.
Do not caveat them.
Do not be like, well, I'm nice,but everybody's nice.
It doesn't count.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:41):
hmm.
Raj Shah (44:43):
Like if you're nice, then you're freaking nice.
Like own it.
And you know what's funny?
uh, I've been doing this, uh,with teachers and I'm having
them write down like three oftheir superpowers and how they
apply in the classroom.
And then I tell them what mineare.
And do you know that I try, Ikind of caveat them when I say
that.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:02):
What are they?
Raj Shah (45:02):
people tell me that like, I'm kind of good at
Vanessa Vakharia (45:05):
Uhhuh.
Raj Shah (45:06):
And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing
Vanessa Vakharia (45:08):
Yeah,
Raj Shah (45:09):
Right?
Because it's sort ofembarrassing to say in front of
a group of people, like, this iswhy I'm amazing.
But if I believe that all of usare amazing, then it's a little
less crazy.
Right?
And egotistical.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:22):
What are your three superpowers though?
Just tell us quick.
Raj Shah (45:25):
Uh, one, I'm really, I think, oh, see, I did it right
there.
Really good at making studentsfeel like I'm in it with them as
opposed to the, the sage who hasall the answers and that we're,
we're struggling through thistogether, like,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:41):
Which is also, by the way, one of the tips I
was giving earlier of like astudent loves when they feel
like, Hey, there's nothing wrongwith them, you're in it with
them.
Okay, next step.
What's the next superpower?
Raj Shah (45:52):
Oh, I'm, I'm listing.
Okay.
You want a second one?
Uh, second one.
My silly one is that I'm reallygood at forgetting the answers
to math problems so that whenkids are like, was this right?
I like, literally don't know'cause I forgot.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:04):
Love it.
So you're not a liar.
Raj Shah (46:05):
That's my silly superpower.
And then a third one, if I hadto say a third one.
I think I do a pretty good job.
I will caveat this a tiny bit'cause it's always, you're
always in the process of this, Ithink.
But my favorite quote is, becurious, not judgmental.
Ted Lasso, uh, season one,episode eight, the greatest
scene of TV ever made in thehistory of the universe.
And I try really, really hard tonot judge and just respond with
(46:30):
curiosity all the time.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:32):
I love it.
Okay.
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm sorry I interrupted theinitial flow.
I need you to finish what youwere saying.
Raj Shah (46:39):
Okay.
I think I was saying that yourability to see the brilliance in
others is correlated a hundredpercent directly to your ability
to seller.
So
Vanessa Vakharia (46:47):
Yep.
Raj Shah (46:47):
find your own brilliance.
Like, change that if, if youhave a problem with that, which
lots of people do, um, that'sbeing human.
And then because you've seen itin yourself, you will see it in
other people.
So you'll see, you'll start tosee their kindness.
You'll start to see theircuriosity.
You'll start to see their lackof judgment.
You'll start to see all and thenall you, it's not that
complicated.
(47:08):
Just when you notice it, you'reobligated to tell them,
Vanessa Vakharia (47:12):
I love it.
Raj Shah (47:13):
I love how curious you are.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:14):
I love it.
I love it.
Raj Shah (47:17):
what color the cars are in this problem, I love that
curiosity, it has nothing to dowith the math of this problem,
but never thought about thecolor of the cars.
That's super cool.
Tell me more.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:33):
There it is there.
Raj Shah (47:33):
obviously i's made a little bit
Vanessa Vakharia (47:35):
No, no, no, no.
Raj Shah (47:37):
but you get my point.
Also it is so much more fun tocome to school every day if you
do that.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:43):
Okay.
Step one, find the brilliance inyourself.
List three things that are yoursuperpowers.
Do it.
No caveat, if you're literallyhaving trouble, call your best
friend and be like, tell methree things that are amazing
about me.
Step two start noticing thebrilliance in the kids around
you, because now you've realizedthree superpowers that you
didn't even know you had.
(48:03):
Just start being curious aboutwhat brilliance lies amongst the
people around you.
And step three, point it out.
Every time you can point it out,you're obligated to say
something about it.
Every time you do.
It's like complimenting awoman's eyeliner.
It always ends well.
They always are happy after theyalways smile and they pass that
on.
Raj Shah (48:22):
Oh,
Vanessa Vakharia (48:22):
I love it.
Raj Shah (48:23):
tip.
I'm gonna keep that eyeliner
Vanessa Vakharia (48:25):
Eyeliner every time.
Yep.
Dude.
Wow.
Wow.
Honestly, what a great time.
I, you know, I could talk to youfor hours.
You know I absolutely can't.
Is there anything you wantpeople to go look up?
Like if, you know, if peoplewanted to go find you, where
should they go?
Raj Shah (48:39):
Okay.
If, I mean, if they want to,they can go to my website, Dr.
Raj Shaw, drrajshah.com But whatwould be even cooler, because
you asked everyone to write downtheir three superpowers is if
they emailed them to us.
Vanessa Vakharia (48:53):
I want that to happen.
Let's do it.
Email them.
Okay, so you can now actuallytext this podcast.
Raj Shah (49:00):
Ooh.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:00):
But I don't understand where they find that
in the show notes, thedescription The description.
Okay.
So here's what's gonna happen.
You can text us your threesuperpowers to me and Raj, in
the description of this episode.
There will be a number in thepodcast player.
What?
Say it again.
David's so annoyed, David.
Just tell everyone.
He's coming.
David will tell you how to te
David Kochberg (49:21):
You should really learn how to do this.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:23):
But just tell us,
David Kochberg (49:24):
in the podcast player that you're listening to
this on, you just should be ableto see a link right at the top
that says, of the descriptionthat says, see now I'm not
trained at this.
I'm not as experienced a host asyou.
In the podcast player.
Look at the description of thisepisode and there should be a
link that says, text us orsomething like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:42):
Great.
Text us your three superpower
David Kochberg (49:43):
Standard messaging rates apply.
I think it's a US number.
Vanessa Vakharia (49:46):
Okay, fine.
And if you don't wanna do thatbecause we just made it so
confusing, DM your threesuperpowers to me on Instagram
@themathguru.
Email them to me, Vanessa, atthe math guru.ca, and I will
share them all with Raj and wewill look through them all and
we will celebrate you.
Raj Shah (50:01):
I can't wait!
Vanessa Vakharia (50:01):
We can't wait.
Raj Shah (50:03):
Wait, we, we, we left off something extremely
important.
Vanessa Vakharia (50:05):
Wait.
There's more.
Raj Shah (50:06):
Yeah.
We don't know what your threesuperpowers are yet.
Vanessa Vakharia (50:10):
Oh God.
Uh, okay, let me, you're right,it is hard, right, you don't,
it's true.
And honestly, I'm really tryingto work on this, but it's so
hard'cause you feel like you'rebragging.
You like this and that.
Raj Shah (50:20):
I'm gonna call you out when you caveat,
Vanessa Vakharia (50:22):
Watch.
I'm not gonna, okay.
My three superpowers are, Idon't, I was about to be like, I
think I'm pretty funny.
I'm, I, I, I think I'm prettyfunny.
That's number one.
Do I have to, I'm not allowed tosay.
I think, fuck.
Superpower number one.
I am funny.
Superpower number two.
I do, I keep wanting to say, Ithink superpower number two.
(50:43):
I love asking questions.
That feels better than sayingI'm great at asking questions.
Okay.
Superpower number three.
Um, oh, oh.
Superpower number three is I cansee both sides of basically
everything.
I can always see the other side.
I can always find something incommon with someone.
Always,
Raj Shah (51:02):
That's cool.
And your eyeliner is on point.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:08):
honestly does look really good today.
Thank you.
Okay, final two questions.
Number one, if you could changeone thing about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Raj Shah (51:17):
No assessments,
Vanessa Vakharia (51:18):
Shit.
All right.
Number two.
Someone's like, Raj, I love yourwork, that's so cool, whatever.
But the thing is, I'm just not amath person.
What do you say?
Raj Shah (51:27):
No such thing as a math person.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:30):
Quick, efficient.
I loved it.
Raj Shah (51:32):
You've bought into a fake idea that doesn't exist.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:35):
And on that note, everyone, that's a wrap.
That was great.
I loved it.
Raj Shah (51:41):
too much fun.
Vanessa Vakharia (51:44):
Can we just talk about that moment for a
second?
Like Raj literally said hecouldn't remember the lyrics,
and then the second he heardthat one musical cue, he
suddenly could, I swear, everytime I re-listened to that clip,
I get goosebumps because Iwatched it happen.
Like I saw in his face thathesitation, that flicker of
recognition and then like, boom,he went for it.
It was this perfect humanreminder that memory and meaning
(52:08):
are not separate, they feed eachother.
And I know this might sound likea stretch, but I think this was
such a perfect analogy for howwe can help students overcome
math anxiety.
Some kids have no problemrecalling facts under pressure,
but others draw a blank, even ifdeep down they really know the
answers.
They need a little nudge.
Maybe it's the pressure of time,like maybe it's social anxiety.
(52:28):
Maybe it's this internal, I knowI know this, I know, I know
this, like, what's wrong withme, why can't I remember?
But if we allow students alittle cue, whatever personal
helping hand they need, they canbreak through those walls.
And before you know it, they'resinging John Legend live on a
podcast.
I don't know.
I loved every direction thisconversation went, and I was so
inspired by how thoughtful andhopeful Raj is and how much
(52:51):
faith he has in everyone to findmeaning in what they're
learning.
So here is your Math Therapyhomework this week.
Think about the last timesomething finally made sense,
like really clicked for you.
What made that happen?
Was it the pattern?
Was it the story, the why behindit?
And now I want you to bring thatenergy into your next math class
and see what kind of magichappens.
(53:12):
And if that moment with Raj hityou like it hit me, share this
episode.
Send it to a teacher who'sstruggling to connect with a
student, a parent who's tryingto help their kid find meaning
in their homework, or literallyanyone who's ever thought, I'm
just not a math person.
And you guys know the drill.
Text the podcast.
DM me on Instagram@themathguru,or email me at
vanessa@themathguru.ca.
(53:34):
Links for all of that are in theshow notes.
Tell me what this brought up foryou, I love hearing from you
guys.
And remember, my book MathTherapy is now available on all
audiobook platforms narrated byme, and my Math Therapy merch
line is out.
So head to maththerapy.com/merchand get yourself something cute.
Until next week, xo xo.
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