November 13, 2025 • 48 mins
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*call-out before we get into today's ep* - If you or a colleague/parent/student has a story about incorporating the absurd 6-7 phenomenon into actual learning, we need you! Seriously, send us a brief text or a voicenote via Instagram DM or email. We've heard some stories and want to do an episode about enhancing learning by reaching kids through their interests (no matter how ridiculous we think they are...)
On today's episode w/ Rob Baier:
Vanessa often goes into our interviews with a thorough plan, and then as soon as we hit record she instead asks the first random thing that pops into her mind and never looks at the outline again. Well, today's episode with trailblazer Rob Baier is one of those rollercoasters! Some of the rabbit holes they end up in include:
- how our assessment systems contribute to math anxiety/trauma
- why we actually became so obsessed with getting every student into calculus
- what student learning has in common with binging an entire season of Ginny and Georgia (spoiler alert: we have it all backwards)
About Rob: (LinkedIn)
Rob is passionate about inspiring the next generation of math enthusiasts! As a Growth Lead at Innovamat, Rob is dedicated to bringing innovative math education solutions to schools across three states. With a diverse background in education, including roles as a math teacher, curriculum director, and professional development leader, he is committed to empowering educators and students. He is also a co-host of the #DebateMath podcast and a frequent presenter at national and regional conferences.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
More Math Therapy:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rob Baier (00:03):
You coming at any educator, saying why aren't they
teach in the way that Ilearned, my question to you is,
did you like math?
Do you want us to still teachit the way that you learned it?
So you're saying you don't likemath, you hate math, math isn't
your thing, math isn't yourjam.
But you want us to teach yourkids the same way.
That's crazy.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:25):
Okay guys.
Oh my God.
I just got back from 40 days onthe road speaking to educators
across North America about MathTherapy, and I feel like I've
just like arisen from a fuguestate.
Like what just happened?
I literally left sunny PalmSprings, 10 hours later, I was
in snowy Toronto.
It has been a wild ride.
It was just so cool to see somany teachers wearing their new
(00:45):
Math Therapy merch, and Iliterally almost died when I
found out that my book sold outat two of the conferences I was
at.
Like, what?
Huh?
Thank you guys so much.
I don't know, I just, I learnedso, so much from all of you and
all of the teachers there andall of the incredible educators.
And I also have to say thatwhat I really learned is that
(01:06):
our collective obsession withthe six seven situation is not
slowing down anytime soon.
It's ridiculous.
It doesn't make any sense.
We all hate it, but when lifehands you lemons, you make a
podcast about it.
So before we get into today'sinterview, I wanna try something
with you guys.
If you or a teacher or parentyou know has found some way to
(01:27):
incorporate this like sixseven nonsense into your kids'
learning, I want to hear aboutit.
I've heard some stories aboutthis and I thought this is a
great example of meeting kidswhere they are and incorporating
what they're interested in toget them invested in learning,
no matter how completelyridiculous we think it is.
So, text the podcast with abrief story or send a voice note
(01:47):
by Instagram DM or by email tovanessa@themathguru.ca.
Links for those are in thisepisode's description.
I wanna hear from you.
Alright, onto today's episode.
So this crazy teacher conferencetour I've been on has been
truly incredible, both for thethousands of inspiring teachers
I've met, and also theincredible network of other
innovators in the math ed worldtrying to fix the broken parts
(02:10):
of the system.
That's why I've been so excitedto have Rob Baier on the
podcast because guys, he's oneof the most passionate,
inspiring math educators I know.
And honestly, I love him evenmore for the authentic, loyal
friend that he is.
As I've gotten to know Rob moreand more over the past 40 days,
I've realized how rare it is tomeet someone who always stands
up for what they believe in,won't back down when they sense
(02:32):
bullshit, and truly has hisheart set on what is best for
those around him.
And that's why today'sconversation is so special
because Rob does not holdback. As usual, I went in with
a plan and then instead offollowing that plan, I just
asked him the first thing thatpopped into my mind, and
that sent us down a rabbit holedebating how our assessment
systems contribute to mathanxiety and trauma, why we
(02:53):
became so obsessed with gettingevery student into calculus in
the first place, and whatstudent learning has in common
with binging an entire season ofGinny and Georgia.
Rob shared so much practicaladvice for teachers and
generally like made me snortlaugh multiple times in this
episode.
Remember, if something makes yougo, oh my God, you can always
pause, share this episode with afriend you want to yell about
(03:15):
it with, and text the podcast ifyou have any thoughts by
hitting the link in the shownotes.
So guys, here we go.
I cannot wait for you to meetmy friend, the one and only Rob
Baier.
Hello Rob.
Welcome to the podcast.
Rob Baier (03:31):
Oh, thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:36):
You host your own podcast, don't you?
Rob Baier (03:38):
I do.
Is this how we're gonna dothis?
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:41):
I don't know.
That's just what came outta mymouth.
I just,
Rob Baier (03:44):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
just occurred to me.
Rob Baier (03:46):
own podcast with Chris Luzniak, who is, his book
is Up for Debate.
Our podcast is called DebateMath.
I don't know what to do with myhands.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:55):
Okay.
The reason I brought, first ofall, this is an audio podcast.
No one's gonna be watching thevideo, so don't even worry about
that.
Okay.
The reason I brought that up isa, it just occurred to me, and
I just say the first thing thatcomes into my mind, because I
have no filter, this is just howit works.
But it occurred to me as I saidit.
I was like, okay, you host yourown podcast called Debate Math,
which is all about havingconversations and talking about
(04:16):
the nuance of topics that canfeel very heated.
Rob Baier (04:20):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:21):
This is a nice little segue because we've
interviewed Pam Harris on thepodcast, and the reason I know
Pam Harris is because we bothdebated the value of algorithms
on your podcast.
One thing that I think isreally cool about you now that
we've like kind of becomefriends is you and I love
talking about things and kind ofdissecting them and being like,
well, what about this side?
What about that side?
And something I've alwaysadmired about you is that you
(04:42):
share a quality I have, soreally I'm just complimenting
myself, which is that we'reoften able to see many sides of
something.
So we don't like to jump toconclusions like we're, we don't
wanna write something off.
We're very often like, well,yeah, I can see that side, but
then am I overthinking it and amI do it?
Like we talk a lot like that,both of us.
I kind of wanna know what isthe thing in math education
(05:06):
right now that you feel likeyou're kind of on the fence
about, that you're havingtrouble picking a side?
Is there something you can pickmore than one, but right now,
what's top of mind when I saythat?
What's the thing for you?
Rob Baier (05:18):
Wow.
Um, Maybe around this idea of,of assessment like, what is
assessment?
are we assessing for?
And it kind of comes out as islike grades.
then I'm like, okay, well thenit sounds like it's not an issue
within, do we have assessmentsor are we assessing, the issue
(05:41):
is the educational system, thefocus and impact on grades.
So like, how do we shift that?
Like my, so me being on thefence is like, do we have to
play by the rules because of therules that are, that were dealt
with.
And how do we continue tohonor, like what actual
assessment is, like assessing dostudents actually understand a
(06:04):
certain concept?
And are we in the moment whereyou know, I, I believe in like
spiral learning trajectories andare we in that moment where
we're assessing the student foron mastery, but they're not in
the moment of mastery?
it is kind of a nuanceddiscussion.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:18):
You said a bunch of words that, okay, I'm
gonna need you to define a fewof the words you said.
'cause you just like casuallywere like, I believe in a spiral
curriculum.
What is that?
Rob Baier (06:26):
Spiral learning trajectories.
Okay.
So a spiral, oh, This isperfect for this podcast.
Let's talk
Vanessa Vakharia (06:34):
Okay.
Rob Baier (06:35):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:35):
Oh my God, I can't wait.
Yeah.
Rob Baier (06:37):
I am curious for you, what's something that you're
binging right now?
Like that, that you sit down,you've binged, like what's
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (06:44):
What is it?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:45):
Ginny and Georgia.
Rob Baier (06:46):
Okay, so, and like you sat down all in one setting,
like setting and like you'velike one where like you may
Vanessa Vakharia (06:51):
over three days?
Rob Baier (06:53):
three days you watched like a whole like series
or something like that, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
Yeah.
Like I couldn't stop.
I was like, oh my God, I can'twait to watch.
Yes, yes.
Rob Baier (07:01):
if a month from now, if we came back and I said, Hey,
what were some of the thingsthat happened during that?
Like what were some of thedetails you wouldn't be able to
recall all of it.
You'd be able to recall partsof it, but what you would
remember would not be as much aswhat you would remember right
at the end of it.
Correct.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:18):
Okay.
Yep.
Rob Baier (07:20):
Way back when we were younger, back in the day when
Vanessa Vakharia (07:22):
Hmm.
Rob Baier (07:23):
was weekly things and we're talking about like, let's
say Thursday nights, you know,I know this is gonna date myself
a little bit, but Thursdaynights Friends is on.
Right?
Or
Vanessa Vakharia (07:33):
And Who's the Boss?
Rob Baier (07:35):
the
Vanessa Vakharia (07:35):
Yep.
Rob Baier (07:36):
Meets World or you know, like all of these
Vanessa Vakharia (07:38):
oh yeah.
Rob Baier (07:39):
you know, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like that was
Friday nights.
But like, the fact that I
Vanessa Vakharia (07:43):
You remember the days of the weeks?
Why do you remember that?
Rob Baier (07:47):
on like ABC or whatever and
Vanessa Vakharia (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Rob Baier (07:49):
So anyway, so when we're, when we're thinking back
to that, like what happenedbetween like an episode and
another episode, we had time inbetween.
Right?
And that time in
Vanessa Vakharia (08:00):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (08:00):
socially, what were we.
We were
Vanessa Vakharia (08:04):
Talking about it,
Rob Baier (08:05):
And we are processing
Vanessa Vakharia (08:07):
like, oh my.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rob Baier (08:08):
conversations and like, you know, throwing things
out there because like, oh, Iwonder what's gonna happen next?
And like, you
Vanessa Vakharia (08:14):
Yep.
Rob Baier (08:14):
all this stuff.
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:15):
In between weeks.
We'd be talking about theepisodes.
We'd be like, oh, I can't waittill next week's episode.
What do you think's gonnahappen?
Rob Baier (08:20):
Yeah.
So full circle back to what isa, spiral, trajectory.
it, it's where we're teachingstudents like not to mastery in
the moment, but we are, buildingsomething that continues to
circle back and cycle back.
And in between they're applyinglike the, the little skills
that they're learning they'rehaving conversations and like,
(08:41):
you know, it's not, and this canhappen over weeks and as we're
building towards mastery asopposed to, you know, like
teaching in units, similar tobinge watching where students
would have a lot more successright after a unit, right, on an
assessment or on, you know, inhow they are having success and
(09:01):
like math.
That's the difference betweenthe two.
Like the one's like a more unitlike driven, the other one's
spiral where it's coming back,learning trajectories are how
students learn mathematics, likeif this, then that.
So, for instance, you were atour session at NCSM when we
built the 17 times tables.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:19):
For People who dunno what we're talking about,
it was very, very cool.
Like no one knows their 17times tables off by heart.
So Rob was showing us a waythat we could build the 17 times
tables tapping into knowledgewe already have, as opposed to
mastering them by memorizing.
So for example, we couldprobably, most of us could say
what 17 times one is,
Rob Baier (09:41):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
It's 17, we already know that.
How can we use that to figureout what 17 times two is?
We could even add them togetherif we wanted and get 34.
Now it might be hard to get to17 times three, but if we have
34 is 17 times two, we couldmaybe use that knowledge to go
to 17 times four, because weknow it's doubling.
(10:03):
That's prior knowledge.
Okay.
Anyways, I don't know if thatwas necessary.
Go on.
Rob Baier (10:07):
actually a hundred percent necessary.
A learning trajectory would bethings like, you know, we, we
skip count, coming out of, youknow, second grade we are able
to skip count by twos and fivesand tens, right?
So it's natural to start whenyou start to introduce
multiplication to go back totalk about doubling, because the
idea of doubling is afoundational skill for addition.
(10:30):
And so we can start withdoubling and counting by twos.
and then we get into buildingthe twos timestables.
So we're multiplying by two.
And then once we multiply bytwo and build the twos times
tables, we're not mastering,we're just building those.
And then we build the fivetimes tables.
And once we know the twos andwe know the fives, and we also
talked about doubling thenatural progression would be
fours because twos and
Vanessa Vakharia (10:52):
huh.
Rob Baier (10:53):
we know twos and fours, natural progression would
be eights.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:58):
Eight.
Okay, but sorry, back me up.
What does this have to do withspiraling?
Rob Baier (11:02):
This is the learning trajectory piece.
How students should learnmathematics or can learn
mathematics like in a sequentialway.
Like if they know
Vanessa Vakharia (11:09):
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:09):
know this, then they know this, then they know this.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:12):
We're building on prior knowledge.
Rob Baier (11:14):
knowledge.
So like once you build thetwos, then we learn the fours
Vanessa Vakharia (11:18):
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:19):
the idea of like how we were all taught, we're gonna
learn the twos, now we're gonnamemorize the threes, now we're
gonna
Vanessa Vakharia (11:25):
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:27):
memorize the
Vanessa Vakharia (11:27):
I got it.
Rob Baier (11:28):
and so on.
um, and then for whateverreason, sevens, you know, are
right after sixes.
Right?
Well, in learning trajectories,like when we start thinking
about how the brain actually,you know, is processing this.
Sevens are last,
Vanessa Vakharia (11:40):
Why are sevens lost?
Rob Baier (11:41):
Twos, fives, fours, because we got two and four.
Once we go fours, then we goeights
Vanessa Vakharia (11:49):
Because we're doubling every time, so we
already understand that.
Rob Baier (11:52):
we come back
Vanessa Vakharia (11:52):
Then what?
Rob Baier (11:53):
back to threes.
'cause once we know twos andfours, we can use deduction,
deductive thinking to get tothrees.
Now we know twos and threes, sonaturally it's gonna be six.
And then once we
Vanessa Vakharia (12:07):
Oh, 'cause we can now double the, we can
double the three to get to asix.
Oh my God, I love it.
Okay.
Rob Baier (12:11):
And then from sixes.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:12):
okay.
And then.
Rob Baier (12:13):
then from sixes we go to nines.
And then, uh, the last one issevens.
'cause sevens doesn't reallyhave a connection unless you're
a massive American football fan.
You play Madden and you justcount by touchdowns.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
I dunno what that means.
Okay, great.
So what we were talking aboutis really the idea of, as we
started this talking aboutassessment, just to bring us
back and the idea of when we'reas teaching by unit, we are then
assessing at the end of everyunit we're assessing mastery.
But the problem is the unit onquadratics is over, now we've
moved on to trigonometry.
(12:44):
Months later a student has totake an exam and they're like,
wait, what the fuck?
I don't remember anything I didbefore because I've never
looked at Quadratics again.
Now that we've moved on totrig.
Whereas with spiraling, wewould slowly be introducing
these pieces.
We would circle back, we wouldmove for opioid, you know, can I
just tell you that one time Iactually walked into a PD
session called "Spiraling theCurriculum", I think it was
called, and I read it asspiraling over the curriculum
(13:07):
and I was like, oh good, this isgonna be about like anxiety and
like freaking out about thecurriculum.
And I went into the session andthey were showing all these
diagrams of how you could teachthis stuff.
And I was like, fuck.
That is not, that is not what Ithought I was doing here.
Um, okay, so, you, you're onthe fence about the idea of
assessment and why we're doingit in a way, like, it's like, is
(13:29):
that it?
This idea of like, what is itfor?
Rob Baier (13:32):
no, I think I'm on the, the, it's more about being
on the fence on do I wanna fightthe fight against grades or do
Vanessa Vakharia (13:40):
Well, my God, yes.
Rob Baier (13:41):
and,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:41):
Okay.
Rob Baier (13:42):
then, but that, see, but that's a, it's tough because
like in education, I think manyof us, would be wanting to
fight against grades.
But then you have like thesocial aspect of grades, and
then there's also like, youknow, like schools are still
ranking in high school and like,there's like all these things
that we kind of know are notreally right, you know, in the
(14:02):
grand
Vanessa Vakharia (14:03):
well.
Rob Baier (14:04):
But like, we still overemphasize grades and we
overemphasize other things.
And it's like, okay, so, but,but assessment for like, what
assessment really should be islike, what does a student know,
coming in, what do they knownow, how can we, you know, like
find out where they'restruggling and, and you know,
and help 'em.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:26):
Okay.
I have a question though.
I'm really actually glad youbrought up grading because I've
been wanting to ask someonethese questions.
You can tell me if you're like,this really isn't what I wanna
be talking about right now, butwhen you say fighting the fight
against grades, me and Davidwere having this debate 'cause
he is like, you know, he,everyone kind of brings this up.
At one point or another in aninterview, someone will casually
be like, and well, you know,like grades are bad and like,
(14:47):
you know, we should get rid ofgrading.
But I've, I've always in theback of my mind wondered, can
someone play, paint me a pictureof what the vision is without
grades, because I actually don'tthink I understand what it wa
is, that's not you, you don'twanna paint it, you don't wanna
do it.
Rob Baier (15:02):
no, I think, so our mutual friend Nolan, Nolan
Fossum, he, you know, was, wasworking around like un grading
at one point and
Vanessa Vakharia (15:13):
Yes.
What, what is it?
Rob Baier (15:14):
well, and, and it posed some, some problems where
he was providing feedback in theprocess and, the problems that,
that he was getting was like,it's still like, it's a pushback
from like a community and like,you still have to put grades
in, especially as a high schoolteacher, because then it's like
how, you know, if kids are ontheir way to college and
university, like they need it ontheir transcript,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:37):
Yeah,
Rob Baier (15:37):
that makes grades important for that.
what he was doing was,providing, an assessment score
on what they know in thatmoment, that can be improved on
and should be improved on as youcontinue practicing that skill
over time.
it, like
Vanessa Vakharia (15:54):
so, okay.
Rob Baier (15:55):
what he was thinking about, right.
And like, I, I didn't get todive too much into that, but for
me, a world without grades,like, I don't know what it would
look like.
I think it's more out offeedback and like knowing where
they, where students are andwhat they know and what they're
capable of doing.
Like, like let's think aboutlike, And like we're adulting
right now.
Like we are in the middle ofadulting.
That's what we're trying to do,right?
(16:17):
This whole
Vanessa Vakharia (16:18):
Like, what does that mean?
Like living life as an adult?
Rob Baier (16:20):
adult.
Like it's, that's not thefantasy land that kids are in.
Like we
Vanessa Vakharia (16:25):
Okay.
Yeah,
Rob Baier (16:26):
of adulting.
Like I, I'm married with threekids.
That's adulting.
Like, that's, and,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:31):
but I'm not married with three kids.
Am I still adulting?
Rob Baier (16:34):
Adulting because you are grinding with, with your,
your band.
You're going on tour, you're,you have books, you are speaking
engagements.
Like you're doing all thethings.
You know what you're not doing?
Worrying about like, okay, oh,I'm going to eat, you know,
these meals, I'm gonna go hangout with my friends all the
time.
I'm gonna, I have no bills.
I have nothing to pay for.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:55):
Okay.
Rob Baier (16:56):
very kid oriented.
Remember those days?
Vanessa Vakharia (16:59):
Like we're responsible for caring of
ourselves.
Rob Baier (17:01):
It's the worst.
it's the worst.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:05):
Okay.
Rob Baier (17:06):
Okay.
So, so in the, in the adultworld, like we don't receive
grades, like
Vanessa Vakharia (17:13):
Okay.
Rob Baier (17:14):
receive feedback, like,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:16):
Hmm.
Rob Baier (17:17):
feedback then we learn from our feedback, like
feedback that's provided.
When you and I present, we willreceive like feedback, whether
it's through social media orsomebody emailing us, or like, I
always put up a QR code so thatway they can provide me, you
know, feedback in the moment towhat they like, what they didn't
like, like, then I learned fromit.
Within feedback, like we learnas adults, so like why are we
(17:40):
giving kids like the statusgrade as opposed to like
valuable feedback that couldlearn, you know, lean into
something.
Like, I also think you know,people who sell things on
online, uh, whether it's throughlike Etsy or like Amazon or
wherever, like wherever you'reselling Facebook marketplace,
um, if you're doing any of thosethings, like you get feedback,
people are
Vanessa Vakharia (18:01):
But you got grades also.
You got, yeah, but you also gota five star, you got a star
system.
Rob Baier (18:05):
okay, that's a star system.
Is that a grade that's notreally a status symbol.
It's like, Hey, you did
Vanessa Vakharia (18:09):
Why isn't that a grade?
Hold on a second.
It's out of five.
Rob Baier (18:13):
a grade that's more of like,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:14):
Well define A grade.
Okay, I'm sorry.
We should really have startedwith what is Define A grade
then.
What's a grade?
Rob Baier (18:20):
I, I think a grade is more, of like a status thing at
this point, like the stars aremore like based on I think
that's feedback on, like it's areview of, of you and your
process.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:32):
Hard disagree because if somebody goes to look
at like at, okay, you knowwhat, actually this brings up a
very good point.
'cause you know what reallygrinds my gears and I don't
understand, you know what Idon't understand is when people
say, we've gotten rid ofgrading.
We did this in Canada lastyear, in BC.
We've gotten rid of grading.
So now students only get anumber between one and four,
(18:54):
that's a fucking grade.
And all the parents are like,okay, so they've gotten rid of
like a, B, C 90 80.
But I'm still looking for theone to four.
And I would agree that I wouldalso add, when you go to Amazon
or Google or something, you lookfor something with the highest
rating to tell you how good thatthing is.
How is that not a grade?
What's the difference?
Rob Baier (19:16):
That's a good question.
know what really grinds mygears?
no,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:22):
What
Rob Baier (19:23):
I, I actually, this is, um, this is a very nuanced
conversation and I, I don't seemyself as a grading expert at
all.
Okay.
I wanna be very
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
Totally.
Rob Baier (19:31):
transparent with that.
So I don't like,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:34):
Sure.
Rob Baier (19:35):
I, I, I would much rather us have a, continue the
conversation on what is a grade,let's define a grade like are,
are five star ratings a grade.
Like, that's like, I wouldrather have a conversation with
around that than, know, anythingelse about like, oh, you don't
know what grades are.
No, I don't wanna talk aboutthat.
But I think we need to reallyfocus on like, okay, like we are
(19:58):
giving star ratings, right?
The uber Lyft, like, like weget star
Vanessa Vakharia (20:03):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (20:04):
on whatever, but else are we giving feedback?
So maybe, maybe what we'reunpacking here is that A grade,
when you have a report card,whatever, there's no feedback to
it
Vanessa Vakharia (20:16):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (20:16):
a number maybe attached to it.
Like, Hey, you have a 98 A.
Okay, great.
What does that mean?
You got an A?
if I have a five star rating orlet, let's say I have a four
and a half star rating.
Well, why do I not have a five?
Oh, let's look.
And you can actually see likecomments and you can see things
like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:32):
Yep.
Rob Baier (20:32):
I think that's different.
And this might, you know what Iactually think.
Maybe I'll start doing likestar ratings, for my
presentations when I dopresentations, like have
somebody rate me like, well zeroto five stars, and then provide
feedback just like I'm a anUber driver or a Lyft driver.
And, and then like, maybe I'llcreate an app.
Maybe this is my million dollaridea where I'll create an app
(20:54):
for educators, for, uh, peoplewho are presenting that if they
want feedback and they wannalearn more, like, because like,
let's be honest, I've seen a lotof presentations in schools.
We should probably have a starrating.
Like there should
Vanessa Vakharia (21:07):
I love this idea.
There should be a start.
Rob Baier (21:10):
I'm glad this is
Vanessa Vakharia (21:10):
You've started,
Rob Baier (21:11):
I said it first.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:13):
you've also started with maybe un grading to
like now let, we don't receivegrade as adults to be like,
let's actually give more adultsgrades.
That's what I'm hearing hashappened.
Well,
Rob Baier (21:24):
no, I know.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:25):
I dunno.
Rob Baier (21:25):
No, no.
What I said was, we shouldgive, we should give more star
ratings with feedback becauselike, if you think about this,
okay, let's think about this,okay, on the dating scene, I
haven't dated in years, but onthe dating scene,
Vanessa Vakharia (21:39):
David has David get in on this.
Rob Baier (21:41):
hop in on this.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
He's so pissed.
Rob Baier (21:45):
I have, you know, like friends who, who have been
dating and things like that, andsomebody who just got back on
the dating scene and, and
Vanessa Vakharia (21:51):
Oh yeah.
Rob Baier (21:52):
they were like, would you be nice, like if, like,
hey, you could pull up like thisperson's a, a five star person.
Like they're a great person.
Okay.
Hey, this person's a two and ahalf stars.
Why are they two and a halfstars?
Massive red flags.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:03):
Based on what?
What would you base that on?
You could see how that could goso wrong in the dating world.
Rob Baier (22:08):
could be, yeah, for
Vanessa Vakharia (22:09):
We're riffing we're
Rob Baier (22:11):
We're riffing on this.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:12):
that could,
Rob Baier (22:12):
I like,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:13):
that's a very per,
Rob Baier (22:14):
on some things, let's give stars on everything.
Right?
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:17):
okay.
Okay.
Rob Baier (22:18):
this
Vanessa Vakharia (22:18):
That's a hot take.
Rob Baier (22:20):
You ready?
This is where Debate Math comesinto play.
So,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:23):
I was gonna say this would be great for
Debate Math.
What is a grade is a,
Rob Baier (22:27):
well, I'm gonna go a different direction on this
because reason why Chris and Ido the podcast is like, we want
to have reasoning, right?
And so whenever you say, youknow, you, you, you're allowed
to have opinions, but you shouldalso have reasonings with this.
So provide reasoning.
So this is a healthyconversation about something
that we started with, you know,like no grades to now, like
(22:48):
we're doing five star ratings ondating profiles.
But, but with, with all ofthis, all I'm saying is like, we
have tried to unpack and, and,and provide reasoning to, to
everything that we were justtalking about.
And when you asked me, well,aren't stars, you know, grades,
wait a second, what are grades?
I think that's probably wherewe need to start.
(23:11):
From anything.
So what, what,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:13):
I agree.
Rob Baier (23:15):
we have, we, there's probably gonna be, there are
probably gonna be some, somemisconceptions and misalignments
on definitions.
Once we start to definesomething, then we build off of
that definition.
We can, may still be, you know,on the opposite ends, but at
least we have a clear definitionon what it is we're talking
(23:35):
about.
And we can take that part out.
So, yeah, so look at that fullcircle.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:42):
That's exactly, by the way, this is
actually really full circlebecause right before you, I
interviewed Pam Harris, and thisis exactly what happened to us,
is like halfway through adisagreement we were like, wait
a second, we're defining thisterm the wrong way.
We were like, we've never evendefined algorithm, like are we
going by the same definition ofwhat an algorithm even is.
So I actually do think this isreally, really important.
And it's true, I didn't meanfor this whole thing to be about
(24:04):
grading, but now you've reallygotten me thinking.
And I just was like, we alwayshave interesting discussions
because it is this nuance thing.
And I've a, I actually thinkit's really important to be
like, you kind of started thisby being like, but what is
assessment for?
Is it just to get a grade?
And then it's like, okay, butthen what is a grade and what is
that even for?
And I actually do think it'sreally interesting because now
(24:24):
I'm hearing you be like, well,hold on a second.
The five star system isdifferent because you're also
getting feedback.
And then I would, I wouldtotally lobb it back to you and
be like, okay, so as long as I'mgiving someone a grade and I'm
writing a comment next to it, isthat okay?
And I don't think
Rob Baier (24:40):
I don't know if it's that simplistic.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:43):
No, it's not.
It's obviously not, but it'slike, it's, it's an interesting
idea of why are we givinggrades?
It kind of seems like thereason we're doing it is because
we know that our, our studentsare in a pipeline where grades
will eventually be requiredbecause we as educators, our
goal is for them to learnsomething, right?
That is our goal.
(25:03):
So if our goal is for them tolearn something, does our
grading system help or hinderthat?
Well, it kind of seems likeit's hindering that because the
whole thing is we give them agrade at the end of a quote
unquote unit, and then we justmove the fuck on.
And we're grading where theyare with a concept at a certain
point in time with no,motivation, let's even say as
(25:27):
educators to help them continueto master that concept later on.
And no motivation for thestudent to continue to master
that concept later on.
Because the unit's over,they're never gonna get tested
on it again.
So what the fuck's the point?
So if our goal is for them tolearn, the way we are grading,
at the very least, seems tohinder that.
And it provides no feedback orinformation.
(25:47):
Because ideally in a world, astudent would learn something,
they would do whatever theywould do, they would hand in
their paper or whatever theassessment is, and we'd be able
to say, all right, awesome.
Here's how close you are tothis.
Here's what you need to workon.
Here's la, la la, la, la, la,la.
And that would be the feedbackthey would get so they could
continue to learn, which is thegoal.
Rob Baier (26:05):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:06):
Did that make sense, what I said?
I think so.
Okay.
So it's like, obviously there'sa, there's an issue here, but
they're also stuck in thispipeline, so we don't know what
to even do with them, becauseeventually they'll need a grade.
And I think we just have tomove on from this because we
need to now talk to a gradingexpert who has the answers, and
I guess we have to find thisperson.
Because I'd like to evenimagine, yeah,
Rob Baier (26:23):
was gonna say like, like this is exactly like where,
like, this is why I'm on thefence with this.
Like there's, like you,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:30):
right.
Rob Baier (26:30):
whole conversation started because you said.
What, what are you on the fenceon?
Like with like
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (26:36):
and this conversation ex, that's exactly what like, I
mean there's other, there areother things that I'm on the
fence with, but that this isexactly why I am on the fence
with it because
Vanessa Vakharia (26:46):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (26:47):
I think school to school, teacher to teacher, like
in a building, teacher toteacher, there's a different
definition for grades and whatshould be graded and and all of
that.
And then there's also differentdefinitions for assessment and
what are
Vanessa Vakharia (27:00):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (27:01):
and whether it's formative assessment or
summative assessment and, ohwait, let's not get into that.
Like what are formativeassessments?
Well, that could be
Vanessa Vakharia (27:08):
We can't.
Rob Baier (27:10):
Oh, but this is a summative assessment, but I see
it as formative.
Like there are so many nuancesin education, which makes it
incredibly hard to have aconversation like this and have
a definitive answer.
Like, all this is gonna bedoing is like allowing us to, to
structure a way to have morereasons.
Which is great, then
Vanessa Vakharia (27:31):
Maybe that's an incredible goal though.
Rob Baier (27:34):
incredible goal, but then I love to always follow
with action.
And in this moment
Vanessa Vakharia (27:38):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (27:38):
there, there aren't any actionable steps because
it's gonna take way more than,know, a handful of people having
this conversation, havinggeneral understanding.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:50):
Well, it's true, but I would almost like,
as we wrap up this particularconvo and move to a new topic, I
actually think there is anaction because I think it can be
so frustrating to feel likewe're talking in circles and
then being like, not that we'retalking in circles, but being
like, oh my God, we've talkedabout all this and there's no
answer.
We crave an answer.
We crave a certain answer.
We want things to be black andwhite because it's so much
(28:11):
easier.
And guess what?
That's not how the world is.
They're not black and white.
And I think the coolest thingis that you and I can see all
these shades of gray and we cansay we're on the fence.
Instead of just doubling downand saying, Nope, I'm sticking
to this belief because I said itonce.
You know?
I actually think that's wherethe beauty is.
And we are educators, so weshould be constantly learning
and questioning our beliefs.
And I think an action at apoint like this might be like,
(28:32):
yeah, we're on the fence.
We're not really sure.
But one thing you and I havekind of come to is the most
important part of the learningprocess when it comes to
assessment is feedback.
So guess what?
Everyone, you gotta give yourgrades.
Cool, do it.
But you know what you can do.
Also while you're givinggrades, you can add a caveat to
all of your students and belike, Hey look, I'm giving a
grade because that's what I'vegotta do in this moment.
(28:52):
But also I really actuallywanna focus on the learning
part.
Here is some useful feedback togo along with it.
You know, like that is anaction we can take and other
actions we can take aroundgrading as and assessment,
depending on where you are,obviously we all have our own
red tape, is you can allow, alot of us have a bit of leeway
to allow students to retake anassessment later down the line.
(29:14):
You know, like I always usethis example of being like a
student fails a a test on commondenominators.
They see a failed mark.
A month later they fail a teston adding fractions.
They see a failure.
But you know what they gotright in that adding fractions
test, they managed to do everysingle common denominator.
And they never get rewarded forit.
Rob Baier (29:33):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:33):
Right?
Because, because they never, soyou could as a teacher be like,
you know what, babe?
I saw that you got all thosecommon denominators, right?
What if you just take thatcommon denominators test again
now
Rob Baier (29:43):
Or,
Vanessa Vakharia (29:44):
anyways, okay.
Whatever.
Rob Baier (29:45):
or even, even more so for me, you know, they do well
on the, on the commondenominator test, you know, or
adding common denominators.
And I look at that as like,okay, so like, what didn't they
do well.
Didn't get the right answer?
Ok.
But look at the process.
Where are they struggling?
Okay, so instead of like an
Vanessa Vakharia (30:06):
Yes.
Rob Baier (30:06):
C, D, maybe it's like a, hey, it's like three and a
half stars be, and here's why.
Like, your process was reallygood.
You know, when you're doing,you know, conversions and trying
to get those commondenominators, like you made
some, some mistakes, somecalculation errors, which then
made your answer incorrect atthe end.
Oh my gosh.
As a student, excuse me, as astudent, I'm like, oh, I made a
(30:29):
mistake here.
I know what, what I did at theend.
Like, I know how to fix this.
opposed to sorry, you, youfailed this.
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:38):
Totally.
I think the feedback isimportant and the feedback also
shows our students that webelieve they can improve.
We're not just slapping a gradedown and saying, move on.
We're saying, I'm giving youfeedback because I think you can
take the feedback and then dosomething with it.
I kind of wanna ask how youknow, we, we talk about, this is
a podcast about math trauma andmath anxiety, how you think
(30:59):
these current practices ofassessment, or even the way we
teach in a nons spiraledfashion, just unit after unit
might contribute to math traumain some students.
Do you ever think about that?
Like how that might actuallylike cause math anxiety.
Rob Baier (31:14):
yeah, I actually have recently, because as, as I,
this, that Netflix analogy isone that, you know, internally
at Innovamat we've, we've talkedabout a lot and it's, I think
Albert's the one that kind ofcame up with it and it makes
sense.
And you know, for me, as, as Istarted to reflect on unit
teaching, you know, if a studentdoes really well at the end of
(31:36):
a unit on a unit test, threemonths later, you know, they
have a cumulative exam, maybeit's like a midterm.
And they bomb the midterm.
And the part that they reallystruggle with is that unit one
stuff.
And now you're thinking like,second, I, maybe I'm stupid at
(31:57):
math.
Like I knew it at one point andI forgot it already.
Maybe I'm just not good atthis.
Like, why can't I remember it?
Well, you can't remember itbecause it's not your fault.
Like you, you learned it in a,in a block, like a block, like a
unit, and then you never use itagain.
Like, you didn't, like continuepracticing those skills over
(32:17):
and over
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
Right.
Rob Baier (32:19):
right?
Like, like I'm pretty, so, forinstance, growing up, my dad
showed me how to change oil outof a, of a car.
He, he said, I need, you needto know how to do this.
And he did this whole thing.
He showed me once I helped him,once.
have not done that again in myentire life.
(32:40):
And.
of fact, I would rather paysomebody to do it because I'm
gonna screw this up.
And if I were to do this now, Imean, I'm pretty sure I could,
could empty the oil and then putit
Vanessa Vakharia (32:57):
I would not trust you.
Whatever you're doing with yourface, I would not let you near
my car.
Rob Baier (33:01):
would look at, look, I, I wouldn't let me near your
car either or mine or anybody's.
If I, if somebody's like, Hey,I want you to change the oil on
my car, I'd be like, all right,your keys.
And then I would take it tosomebody and have them do it and
come back.
But the, the, what I'm, thepoint I'm trying to get to is
like, I was shown that in amoment, and then when I needed
(33:22):
to help the next time was ableto do it in that moment, I have
not practiced that skill rest ofmy life.
I was a teenager then.
I am at least double the agethat I was when he shared that
with me.
There's no way in the world I'mgonna remember that.
Now, on the other side of that,like, I love to cook.
(33:43):
I love to, I love to cook.
I love to, like what somethingI, I do a lot for my kids 'cause
I have a, a, a Blackstone Grillis I love to make like hibachi
make hibachi
Vanessa Vakharia (33:54):
Oh my God.
What?
Invite us over.
Rob Baier (33:57):
like rice and, and shrimp.
But it's something that like,I've been crafting and trying to
work on the flavors and stuff,and I keep
Vanessa Vakharia (34:03):
Mm.
Rob Baier (34:04):
I keep getting better at it.
And, it's to the point nowwhere like my middle son will
say, Hey, I, I want hibachitonight.
And like, we'll go get thisstuff.
don't look at a recipe anymore.
It's something I know because Ipracticed it overover time, but
I also failed fixed, failed andfixed, failed and fixed.
(34:24):
And I was able to
Vanessa Vakharia (34:25):
Rupture and repair
Rob Baier (34:27):
Yeah.
So if we wanna talk like a,like a trauma, like if
somebody's like, Hey, here's,here's the keys to my car.
Can you, can you change theoil?
Yeah.
It's, it's like a, a a, aflight or fight response a
little bit.
I'm like, I don't know what thehell I'm doing.
Going back to math, samething's true for like units.
you don't practice those skillsor tie those to other concepts
(34:49):
within, and it's just like, Hey,here's this.
Let's move on.
Here's this,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (34:53):
And then, you know, by the end of the year and the
elementary grades, they're like,we didn't get to geometry.
Third grade comes along.
We didn't get to geometrybecause that's unit 14.
Well, then kids get to 4thgrade, and they go I didn't get,
sorry, didn't get to geometry.
'Cause that's unit 15.
Oh, then they get to fifthgrade and the teacher goes, you
don't know what a quadrilateralis?
Because third grade and fourthgrade, they didn't learn it.
(35:17):
And then in
Vanessa Vakharia (35:18):
Well,
Rob Baier (35:19):
and this,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:19):
okay.
Rob Baier (35:20):
standard take, but then in fifth grade, now that
fifth grade student, going totrauma, that 5th grade student's
going, I must be dumb.
'cause I'm like, that teachersaid I'm supposed to know the
quadrilateral is by fifth grade.
That's not their fault.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:32):
Yeah, there's two different things here
because I mean that that ladderexample is like they literally
didn't learn something, but yourfirst example of mastering
something in a moment, thennever revisiting it, then being
asked to do it and thinking toyourself, I don't remember it.
I actually love that youbrought this up because it's so
funny you say this.
(35:53):
I was literally just talking toRaj about this on the podcast.
We were talking about cars aswell, and I was saying, I
learned how to change a flattire once, right?
Like, and I, I did it.
I, I learned how to do it and Idid it.
I have not used that skillsince, and I don't know how to
do it.
Now.
What's happened, and I bet youthere's a phenomenon for this.
I wanna look it up after.
It's almost made me feelstupider than if I had never
(36:15):
learned how to fix the flat tirein the first place.
Because now my story is I knewhow to do it once and now I
don't.
Which means I can't rememberthings.
And I, it was so foggy.
It was so long ago.
Maybe it was too hard.
Maybe I didn't really know howto do it.
Now my story is about myability to learn things as
(36:37):
opposed to being able to say,well, no one ever showed it to
me.
Maybe I could learn it.
So I actually think this is avery interesting point.
That we teach students in thisway in which they get this taste
of understanding something, butthen later can't remember it
because we've taught in unitsinstead of spiraling.
It almost adds to their storyof, well, I was never really
(36:57):
good at it, if I can't do itnow.
Rob Baier (37:00):
Can I add
Vanessa Vakharia (37:00):
I, I actually think that's, yeah, please,
Rob Baier (37:03):
the
Vanessa Vakharia (37:03):
yeah.
Rob Baier (37:03):
other layer to that, and this is bringing it back to
what we were talking about atthe beginning.
If they're not able to not onlypractice the skill, but to
reason and be able to share andhave conversations and be able
to process, that's anotherblocker for them that, oh, okay,
I didn't, I don't remember thisfrom before, but also like,
(37:24):
they didn't get to practice orlike process through, you know,
going back to where I wastalking about, you know, the
weekly shows, the reason we wereable to process that was
through conversation andreasoning,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:33):
Mm.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Rob Baier (37:35):
like, I, I really believe that like, like there
needs to be a lot more reasoningand processing, but also like,
we can't just learn somethingand move on and, and like think
it's not connected, which Iguess, you know, takes us to an
even bigger issue with, withmath education and in general is
like, we allow that becauseit's so standards driven.
And high stakes testing still.
(37:56):
And, we allow that and it's,and we, we set up, um, a sandbox
that we're trying to play inthat has rules that nobody
really likes.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:05):
Is this just a, well, it's because it's
always been done this way, or doyou think that there's a
conspiracy going on why we'rekeeping it this way?
Rob Baier (38:12):
I think a large part of it is it's always been done
this way and it's somethingthat's comfortable.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:16):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (38:16):
years ago it was the race to calculus, which is still
kind of a thing, but it was arace to calculus.
But why did the race tocalculus even occur?
Well, it's because we were, wasa space race and we were trying
to get to the moon.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (38:30):
What, is that an analogy, or is that real?
Rob Baier (38:33):
real.
And, and the United,
Vanessa Vakharia (38:34):
Oh, oh, really?
Actually.
Rob Baier (38:35):
United, like the, like the United States, we
started to really push calculusand race to get every kid to
take calculus because we had,basically we were trying to get
to the moon before any other
Vanessa Vakharia (38:49):
When was this?
Do you think people haveactually been to the moon or do
you think it's all fabricated?
Rob Baier (38:56):
next que
Vanessa Vakharia (38:57):
wondering.
Okay.
We have to, we have to wrap up.
I don't know how we've beentalking for this long, but this
is just like gone in the oddest,but I'm so into this direction
to be honest, because it'sbrought up a lot of really
interesting things.
Rob Baier (39:13):
I am so excited to see how David's gonna edit this.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:17):
I dunno how he's gonna do it.
This is definitely, he's gothis work cut out for him.
I'll tell you that.
Rob Baier (39:21):
very
Vanessa Vakharia (39:21):
But like,
Rob Baier (39:22):
probably mad at me, but I, I'm not around him.
So.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:27):
I really do, honestly, the thing I really
love about you, it's, it's, Isaid this at the beginning and
then it just showed through ourconversation that, you and I
love, we, we are not scared ofnuance.
We're not the type of peoplewho are like, no, I need to just
have a right answer and know,and I honestly think that's what
makes you such a valuableeducator and such a valuable,
like coach for other teachersbecause you can see all the
(39:49):
different perspectives and waysto do things.
And I know in your work withInnovamat, you have a way of
teaching math that honors a lotof what you're talking about.
Is that correct?
Rob Baier (39:57):
True.
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:58):
If there was a teacher listening to this right
now who was like, you know, Ireally, this spiraling thing
sounds cool, but I don't evenknow where to start.
What advice do you have forthem?
Rob Baier (40:07):
Call us.
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:09):
Call Innovamat.
Rob Baier (40:11):
I mean, I, I, I think that there's a, there's a lot
of research out there and I, Iencourage anybody, whenever
somebody tries to throw researchin your face, read it yourself
and then also try to likeactively seek counter arguments,
that way you can formalize theideas yourself.
I think start there.
So, so read about what it is,how you could do it in terms of
(40:32):
resources, like, I mean,truthfully, like, as a company,
Vanessa Vakharia (40:36):
Gimme something quick.
Rob Baier (40:37):
there's
Vanessa Vakharia (40:38):
Something quick they can do.
Rob Baier (40:39):
well, there's not really anything quick you can
do.
Have to
Vanessa Vakharia (40:42):
Okay.
Fair.
Rob Baier (40:43):
You have to understand, like, I would,
there's nothing quick I, but youneed to dive into like how
students actually learn.
There's a lot of research thereand especially with like
learning progressions orlearning trajectories, like dive
into that.
Uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (40:58):
But you guys have a whole curriculum, right?
Like if a teacher was like,look, I don't wanna read the
science behind this, I believeeverything you said on Vanessa's
amazing podcast, I just wannado it, and I'm a grade three
math teacher.
Can they just like get thisfrom you?
Can they get a lesson on howto, they can get a whole
resource and how to teach theirgrade three curriculum in a
spiraled way?
Rob Baier (41:16):
that'd be a stretch, but we could try.
Yeah.
I, there it's not easy.
This isn't an easy, like,there's, there's not an easy
answer for this one, to behonest.
I wish I could tell you otherthan like finding spiral
curriculums that are already outthere.
There's not an easy way,because most curriculums are,
are written in unit format.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:35):
What's, okay, so we don't even have to put
this in, but now I'm justcurious.
What is a Innovamats curriculumlike?
Rob Baier (41:40):
Spiral.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:42):
But, so I'm trying to, hello?
So can you just tell people tojust call you up?
You're like, it's impossible.
It's so hard.
No
Rob Baier (41:49):
then you said, oh, just call you.
But what's something easy?
Vanessa Vakharia (41:52):
Okay.
I dunno what part of this isgonna be kept on.
He's trying to, not selfpromote, but he, what we're
saying here is Innovamat.
This is not a pitch for aInnovamat, but there is a
resource out there that has allthe, all the grades spiraled for
you.
Rob Baier (42:04):
I will tell you that, okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:06):
Is this reverse psychology?
Is this like, don't call me,don't whatever.
Rob Baier (42:10):
No, no.
Listen, like, so yeah.
I, I, this, I was not intendingto like, have any type of
self-promotion or promotionwhatsoever.
With that said, at, at aInnovamat, at a Innovamat,
Vanessa Vakharia (42:26):
Don't cut any of this.
It's so good.
Rob Baier (42:28):
We have a spiral, a learning trajectory, that is
based off of how students learnmathematics.
We have partnered and areendorsed by Peter Liljedahl,
Vanessa's best friend
Vanessa Vakharia (42:40):
Oh, here we go.
Rob Baier (42:42):
and our core curriculum is called Thinking
Math.
We get kids to think more inmath class in a, in a way that
they retain more over time.
And we also have interventionthat is used by Chicago Public
Schools and other really bigschools around the country.
yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:59):
appreciate you not wanting to self-promote.
I also didn't want you toself-promote, but honestly I'm
also like, you know, spiralingsounds really, really
interesting and very beneficialand it's cool to know there's a
resource out there.
So I'm, you know, that you kindof played this well because it,
now it sounds like I'm forcingyou to sell yourself and you had
no hand in the matter.
It's smart, it's.
Rob Baier (43:18):
It's not, that is not what I tried to do though.
The only thing I didintentionally and I can't wait,
okay, David, keep this part in.
I am so thankful to be on thispodcast, and I hope that this
clip right here shows thatVanessa made me put her book at
the top and then Chris's book atthe bottom or in the middle.
(43:42):
Uh, no, don't, you can cut allthat, but
Vanessa Vakharia (43:46):
We love you.
Okay, final two questions.
Rob Baier (43:50):
questions.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:50):
has been so fun.
Rob Baier (43:51):
ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:52):
No, rapid fire questions.
If there's one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Rob Baier (43:59):
Get students to talk more about their reasons for why
they believe, what they believefor an answer, for a process,
anything like that.
Like hear what they're thinkingthat way we can address like
what their conceptions are ormisconceptions are.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:16):
Love it.
And number two, someone's like,cool, cool, cool.
Yeah, but I'm just not really amath person.
Doesn't really matter how youteach me.
I'm just not a math person.
Rob Baier (44:24):
I typically have a conversation with them about
what they do for, for work.
talk about like their life and,and things like that.
And then literally dissect howthey're doing math all the time.
so,
Vanessa Vakharia (44:36):
Okay.
Rob Baier (44:36):
clearly a math person 'cause you literally do it all
the time.
And that's from reasoning, fromorganizing, from estimating
when you go to the grocery storeto estimating your Amazon cart
as you're clicking through allthe things you wanna buy to, you
know, all of those things, youare doing math all the time.
I'm not a math person is a bsthing to say.
And on top of that, you comingat, at anybody, any educator,
(45:00):
saying that common core and, howthe standards are, like all
this new math and you know, I,why aren't they, they teach in
the way that I learned, myquestion to you is, did you like
math?
And do you want us to stillteach it the way that you
learned it?
So you're saying you don't likemath, you hate math, math.
Isn't your thing, math isn'tyour jam.
(45:21):
But you want us to teach yourkids the same way.
That's crazy.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:26):
Drop the fucking mic.
Go off King.
And on that note, that's a, whydo I keep saying that's a wrap?
I've said it like four times.
Okay, Rob,
Rob Baier (45:38):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:38):
been a pleasure.
Rob Baier (45:40):
Vanessa.
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:43):
See you guys.
I told you I was not lying.
Rob is the real deal.
I'm still like not over thiswhole space race calculus thing.
I think it's so crazy that oureducation system is still like
mostly based around society'sneeds from literally decades
ago.
If learning should be about thefuture, why is education so
stuck in the past?
And you know what, I'm alsoreally sitting here thinking
(46:04):
about assessment.
I know it's a hot topic, but tome it's just this other thing
that we do the same way wealways have and like haven't
adjusted to be like, wait asecond, what exactly are we
doing here and why are we doingit?
If you're thinking some of thesesame thoughts, please share
this episode.
Send it to a teacher who'sstruggling to connect,
assessment to practice, or acolleague who's in the process
(46:24):
of rethinking the why behindtheir instructional practices,
or literally anyone who's everthought, but why are we doing
this stuff and how can I be apart of the solution?
And since I'm all fired up aboutassessment right now, here is
your Math Therapy homework.
This week I want you to reflecton the way you use assessment
in the classroom and considerwhat it is you want to be
assessing and whether or not theform of assessment that you're
(46:46):
using actually as assesses thatthing.
I'm curious what you'lldiscover.
If it's a yes, how does thatmake you feel?
If it's a no, how does thatmake you feel?
And is there some tweak youcould be making?
And you guys know the drill.
Text the podcast, DM me onInstagram at The Math Guru, or
email me atvanessa@themathguru.ca.
Links are all in the shownotes, and I wanna know what
(47:07):
this brought up for you.
I love hearing from you guys.
And finally, remember my book,Math Therapy is now available
on.
All audiobook platformsnarrated by me and my Math
Therapy merch line is out, and Ireleased a special little drop
in the middle of my tour.
So head tomaththerapy.com/merch and get
yourself something cute or maybeget something cute for one of
(47:27):
your besties because theholidays are fast approaching.
And guys, Math Therapy isproduced and edited by the one
and only David Kochberg who'salso in my band, Goodnight
Sunrise.
And I bring that up because ourtheme music that you're
listening to is by our band,Goodnight Sunrise.
You can find new episodesweekly of Math Therapy because
we are now a weekly podcast.
So what's happening next week?
(47:48):
Who knows?
You're gonna have to listen tofind out.
Oh my God.
Yes.
Chris has picked up.
okay.
Sorry.
I'm just recording the intro toRob's session and we are having
a debate about, we're having adebate, there we go.
is it Rob Baier or Baier?
Uh, are you recording this,David?
We have Chris Luzniak.
Is it Luzniak or Luzniak?
(48:09):
Is it Luzniak?
You go with either?
All right.
Oh my God.
David is yelling in my ear.
"He said that when youinterviewed him, Vanessa." Okay,
I love you.
Sorry.
You know I wanna talk to youmore, but I have to record this.
Thank you for coming in Clutch.
Rob Baier.
Okay, there we go.
Oh, Rob is calling me back.
Rob is calling me Rob, I'vegot, I got Rob on the horn.
I got Rob on the horn.
Okay, here's Rob.
(48:30):
what I called you for is I'mcurrently recording the intro to
your session and I said, RobBaier and David yelled, it's Rob
Baier.
So we called you and you didn'tpick up, so then we called
Chris Luzniak.
We're recording all of this.
This is amazing.
This is gonna be the best introever to our unhinged episode.
Okay.
We have to go.
We have to go.
Okay.
Love you.
Okay.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Okay.
Okay.
You can use that however youwant.
(48:51):
Okay.
Here we go.
You coming at any educator, saying why aren't they
teach in the way that Ilearned, my question to you is,
did you like math?
Do you want us to still teachit the way that you learned it?
So you're saying you don't likemath, you hate math, math isn't
your thing, math isn't yourjam.
But you want us to teach yourkids the same way.
That's crazy.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:25):
Okay guys.
Oh my God.
I just got back from 40 days onthe road speaking to educators
across North America about MathTherapy, and I feel like I've
just like arisen from a fuguestate.
Like what just happened?
I literally left sunny PalmSprings, 10 hours later, I was
in snowy Toronto.
It has been a wild ride.
It was just so cool to see somany teachers wearing their new
(00:45):
Math Therapy merch, and Iliterally almost died when I
found out that my book sold outat two of the conferences I was
at.
Like, what?
Huh?
Thank you guys so much.
I don't know, I just, I learnedso, so much from all of you and
all of the teachers there andall of the incredible educators.
And I also have to say thatwhat I really learned is that
(01:06):
our collective obsession withthe six seven situation is not
slowing down anytime soon.
It's ridiculous.
It doesn't make any sense.
We all hate it, but when lifehands you lemons, you make a
podcast about it.
So before we get into today'sinterview, I wanna try something
with you guys.
If you or a teacher or parentyou know has found some way to
(01:27):
incorporate this like sixseven nonsense into your kids'
learning, I want to hear aboutit.
I've heard some stories aboutthis and I thought this is a
great example of meeting kidswhere they are and incorporating
what they're interested in toget them invested in learning,
no matter how completelyridiculous we think it is.
So, text the podcast with abrief story or send a voice note
(01:47):
by Instagram DM or by email tovanessa@themathguru.ca.
Links for those are in thisepisode's description.
I wanna hear from you.
Alright, onto today's episode.
So this crazy teacher conferencetour I've been on has been
truly incredible, both for thethousands of inspiring teachers
I've met, and also theincredible network of other
innovators in the math ed worldtrying to fix the broken parts
(02:10):
of the system.
That's why I've been so excitedto have Rob Baier on the
podcast because guys, he's oneof the most passionate,
inspiring math educators I know.
And honestly, I love him evenmore for the authentic, loyal
friend that he is.
As I've gotten to know Rob moreand more over the past 40 days,
I've realized how rare it is tomeet someone who always stands
up for what they believe in,won't back down when they sense
(02:32):
bullshit, and truly has hisheart set on what is best for
those around him.
And that's why today'sconversation is so special
because Rob does not holdback. As usual, I went in with
a plan and then instead offollowing that plan, I just
asked him the first thing thatpopped into my mind, and
that sent us down a rabbit holedebating how our assessment
systems contribute to mathanxiety and trauma, why we
(02:53):
became so obsessed with gettingevery student into calculus in
the first place, and whatstudent learning has in common
with binging an entire season ofGinny and Georgia.
Rob shared so much practicaladvice for teachers and
generally like made me snortlaugh multiple times in this
episode.
Remember, if something makes yougo, oh my God, you can always
pause, share this episode with afriend you want to yell about
(03:15):
it with, and text the podcast ifyou have any thoughts by
hitting the link in the shownotes.
So guys, here we go.
I cannot wait for you to meetmy friend, the one and only Rob
Baier.
Hello Rob.
Welcome to the podcast.
Rob Baier (03:31):
Oh, thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:36):
You host your own podcast, don't you?
Rob Baier (03:38):
I do.
Is this how we're gonna dothis?
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:41):
I don't know.
That's just what came outta mymouth.
I just,
Rob Baier (03:44):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
just occurred to me.
Rob Baier (03:46):
own podcast with Chris Luzniak, who is, his book
is Up for Debate.
Our podcast is called DebateMath.
I don't know what to do with myhands.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:55):
Okay.
The reason I brought, first ofall, this is an audio podcast.
No one's gonna be watching thevideo, so don't even worry about
that.
Okay.
The reason I brought that up isa, it just occurred to me, and
I just say the first thing thatcomes into my mind, because I
have no filter, this is just howit works.
But it occurred to me as I saidit.
I was like, okay, you host yourown podcast called Debate Math,
which is all about havingconversations and talking about
(04:16):
the nuance of topics that canfeel very heated.
Rob Baier (04:20):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (04:21):
This is a nice little segue because we've
interviewed Pam Harris on thepodcast, and the reason I know
Pam Harris is because we bothdebated the value of algorithms
on your podcast.
One thing that I think isreally cool about you now that
we've like kind of becomefriends is you and I love
talking about things and kind ofdissecting them and being like,
well, what about this side?
What about that side?
And something I've alwaysadmired about you is that you
(04:42):
share a quality I have, soreally I'm just complimenting
myself, which is that we'reoften able to see many sides of
something.
So we don't like to jump toconclusions like we're, we don't
wanna write something off.
We're very often like, well,yeah, I can see that side, but
then am I overthinking it and amI do it?
Like we talk a lot like that,both of us.
I kind of wanna know what isthe thing in math education
(05:06):
right now that you feel likeyou're kind of on the fence
about, that you're havingtrouble picking a side?
Is there something you can pickmore than one, but right now,
what's top of mind when I saythat?
What's the thing for you?
Rob Baier (05:18):
Wow.
Um, Maybe around this idea of,of assessment like, what is
assessment?
are we assessing for?
And it kind of comes out as islike grades.
then I'm like, okay, well thenit sounds like it's not an issue
within, do we have assessmentsor are we assessing, the issue
(05:41):
is the educational system, thefocus and impact on grades.
So like, how do we shift that?
Like my, so me being on thefence is like, do we have to
play by the rules because of therules that are, that were dealt
with.
And how do we continue tohonor, like what actual
assessment is, like assessing dostudents actually understand a
(06:04):
certain concept?
And are we in the moment whereyou know, I, I believe in like
spiral learning trajectories andare we in that moment where
we're assessing the student foron mastery, but they're not in
the moment of mastery?
it is kind of a nuanceddiscussion.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:18):
You said a bunch of words that, okay, I'm
gonna need you to define a fewof the words you said.
'cause you just like casuallywere like, I believe in a spiral
curriculum.
What is that?
Rob Baier (06:26):
Spiral learning trajectories.
Okay.
So a spiral, oh, This isperfect for this podcast.
Let's talk
Vanessa Vakharia (06:34):
Okay.
Rob Baier (06:35):
Okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:35):
Oh my God, I can't wait.
Yeah.
Rob Baier (06:37):
I am curious for you, what's something that you're
binging right now?
Like that, that you sit down,you've binged, like what's
Vanessa Vakharia (06:43):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (06:44):
What is it?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:45):
Ginny and Georgia.
Rob Baier (06:46):
Okay, so, and like you sat down all in one setting,
like setting and like you'velike one where like you may
Vanessa Vakharia (06:51):
over three days?
Rob Baier (06:53):
three days you watched like a whole like series
or something like that, right?
Vanessa Vakharia (06:57):
Yeah.
Like I couldn't stop.
I was like, oh my God, I can'twait to watch.
Yes, yes.
Rob Baier (07:01):
if a month from now, if we came back and I said, Hey,
what were some of the thingsthat happened during that?
Like what were some of thedetails you wouldn't be able to
recall all of it.
You'd be able to recall partsof it, but what you would
remember would not be as much aswhat you would remember right
at the end of it.
Correct.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:18):
Okay.
Yep.
Rob Baier (07:20):
Way back when we were younger, back in the day when
Vanessa Vakharia (07:22):
Hmm.
Rob Baier (07:23):
was weekly things and we're talking about like, let's
say Thursday nights, you know,I know this is gonna date myself
a little bit, but Thursdaynights Friends is on.
Right?
Or
Vanessa Vakharia (07:33):
And Who's the Boss?
Rob Baier (07:35):
the
Vanessa Vakharia (07:35):
Yep.
Rob Baier (07:36):
Meets World or you know, like all of these
Vanessa Vakharia (07:38):
oh yeah.
Rob Baier (07:39):
you know, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like that was
Friday nights.
But like, the fact that I
Vanessa Vakharia (07:43):
You remember the days of the weeks?
Why do you remember that?
Rob Baier (07:47):
on like ABC or whatever and
Vanessa Vakharia (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Rob Baier (07:49):
So anyway, so when we're, when we're thinking back
to that, like what happenedbetween like an episode and
another episode, we had time inbetween.
Right?
And that time in
Vanessa Vakharia (08:00):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (08:00):
socially, what were we.
We were
Vanessa Vakharia (08:04):
Talking about it,
Rob Baier (08:05):
And we are processing
Vanessa Vakharia (08:07):
like, oh my.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rob Baier (08:08):
conversations and like, you know, throwing things
out there because like, oh, Iwonder what's gonna happen next?
And like, you
Vanessa Vakharia (08:14):
Yep.
Rob Baier (08:14):
all this stuff.
Right.
Vanessa Vakharia (08:15):
In between weeks.
We'd be talking about theepisodes.
We'd be like, oh, I can't waittill next week's episode.
What do you think's gonnahappen?
Rob Baier (08:20):
Yeah.
So full circle back to what isa, spiral, trajectory.
it, it's where we're teachingstudents like not to mastery in
the moment, but we are, buildingsomething that continues to
circle back and cycle back.
And in between they're applyinglike the, the little skills
that they're learning they'rehaving conversations and like,
(08:41):
you know, it's not, and this canhappen over weeks and as we're
building towards mastery asopposed to, you know, like
teaching in units, similar tobinge watching where students
would have a lot more successright after a unit, right, on an
assessment or on, you know, inhow they are having success and
(09:01):
like math.
That's the difference betweenthe two.
Like the one's like a more unitlike driven, the other one's
spiral where it's coming back,learning trajectories are how
students learn mathematics, likeif this, then that.
So, for instance, you were atour session at NCSM when we
built the 17 times tables.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:19):
For People who dunno what we're talking about,
it was very, very cool.
Like no one knows their 17times tables off by heart.
So Rob was showing us a waythat we could build the 17 times
tables tapping into knowledgewe already have, as opposed to
mastering them by memorizing.
So for example, we couldprobably, most of us could say
what 17 times one is,
Rob Baier (09:41):
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Vakharia (09:42):
It's 17, we already know that.
How can we use that to figureout what 17 times two is?
We could even add them togetherif we wanted and get 34.
Now it might be hard to get to17 times three, but if we have
34 is 17 times two, we couldmaybe use that knowledge to go
to 17 times four, because weknow it's doubling.
(10:03):
That's prior knowledge.
Okay.
Anyways, I don't know if thatwas necessary.
Go on.
Rob Baier (10:07):
actually a hundred percent necessary.
A learning trajectory would bethings like, you know, we, we
skip count, coming out of, youknow, second grade we are able
to skip count by twos and fivesand tens, right?
So it's natural to start whenyou start to introduce
multiplication to go back totalk about doubling, because the
idea of doubling is afoundational skill for addition.
(10:30):
And so we can start withdoubling and counting by twos.
and then we get into buildingthe twos timestables.
So we're multiplying by two.
And then once we multiply bytwo and build the twos times
tables, we're not mastering,we're just building those.
And then we build the fivetimes tables.
And once we know the twos andwe know the fives, and we also
talked about doubling thenatural progression would be
fours because twos and
Vanessa Vakharia (10:52):
huh.
Rob Baier (10:53):
we know twos and fours, natural progression would
be eights.
Vanessa Vakharia (10:58):
Eight.
Okay, but sorry, back me up.
What does this have to do withspiraling?
Rob Baier (11:02):
This is the learning trajectory piece.
How students should learnmathematics or can learn
mathematics like in a sequentialway.
Like if they know
Vanessa Vakharia (11:09):
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:09):
know this, then they know this, then they know this.
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:12):
We're building on prior knowledge.
Rob Baier (11:14):
knowledge.
So like once you build thetwos, then we learn the fours
Vanessa Vakharia (11:18):
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:19):
the idea of like how we were all taught, we're gonna
learn the twos, now we're gonnamemorize the threes, now we're
gonna
Vanessa Vakharia (11:25):
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Rob Baier (11:27):
memorize the
Vanessa Vakharia (11:27):
I got it.
Rob Baier (11:28):
and so on.
um, and then for whateverreason, sevens, you know, are
right after sixes.
Right?
Well, in learning trajectories,like when we start thinking
about how the brain actually,you know, is processing this.
Sevens are last,
Vanessa Vakharia (11:40):
Why are sevens lost?
Rob Baier (11:41):
Twos, fives, fours, because we got two and four.
Once we go fours, then we goeights
Vanessa Vakharia (11:49):
Because we're doubling every time, so we
already understand that.
Rob Baier (11:52):
we come back
Vanessa Vakharia (11:52):
Then what?
Rob Baier (11:53):
back to threes.
'cause once we know twos andfours, we can use deduction,
deductive thinking to get tothrees.
Now we know twos and threes, sonaturally it's gonna be six.
And then once we
Vanessa Vakharia (12:07):
Oh, 'cause we can now double the, we can
double the three to get to asix.
Oh my God, I love it.
Okay.
Rob Baier (12:11):
And then from sixes.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:12):
okay.
And then.
Rob Baier (12:13):
then from sixes we go to nines.
And then, uh, the last one issevens.
'cause sevens doesn't reallyhave a connection unless you're
a massive American football fan.
You play Madden and you justcount by touchdowns.
Vanessa Vakharia (12:24):
I dunno what that means.
Okay, great.
So what we were talking aboutis really the idea of, as we
started this talking aboutassessment, just to bring us
back and the idea of when we'reas teaching by unit, we are then
assessing at the end of everyunit we're assessing mastery.
But the problem is the unit onquadratics is over, now we've
moved on to trigonometry.
(12:44):
Months later a student has totake an exam and they're like,
wait, what the fuck?
I don't remember anything I didbefore because I've never
looked at Quadratics again.
Now that we've moved on totrig.
Whereas with spiraling, wewould slowly be introducing
these pieces.
We would circle back, we wouldmove for opioid, you know, can I
just tell you that one time Iactually walked into a PD
session called "Spiraling theCurriculum", I think it was
called, and I read it asspiraling over the curriculum
(13:07):
and I was like, oh good, this isgonna be about like anxiety and
like freaking out about thecurriculum.
And I went into the session andthey were showing all these
diagrams of how you could teachthis stuff.
And I was like, fuck.
That is not, that is not what Ithought I was doing here.
Um, okay, so, you, you're onthe fence about the idea of
assessment and why we're doingit in a way, like, it's like, is
(13:29):
that it?
This idea of like, what is itfor?
Rob Baier (13:32):
no, I think I'm on the, the, it's more about being
on the fence on do I wanna fightthe fight against grades or do
Vanessa Vakharia (13:40):
Well, my God, yes.
Rob Baier (13:41):
and,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:41):
Okay.
Rob Baier (13:42):
then, but that, see, but that's a, it's tough because
like in education, I think manyof us, would be wanting to
fight against grades.
But then you have like thesocial aspect of grades, and
then there's also like, youknow, like schools are still
ranking in high school and like,there's like all these things
that we kind of know are notreally right, you know, in the
(14:02):
grand
Vanessa Vakharia (14:03):
well.
Rob Baier (14:04):
But like, we still overemphasize grades and we
overemphasize other things.
And it's like, okay, so, but,but assessment for like, what
assessment really should be islike, what does a student know,
coming in, what do they knownow, how can we, you know, like
find out where they'restruggling and, and you know,
and help 'em.
Vanessa Vakharia (14:26):
Okay.
I have a question though.
I'm really actually glad youbrought up grading because I've
been wanting to ask someonethese questions.
You can tell me if you're like,this really isn't what I wanna
be talking about right now, butwhen you say fighting the fight
against grades, me and Davidwere having this debate 'cause
he is like, you know, he,everyone kind of brings this up.
At one point or another in aninterview, someone will casually
be like, and well, you know,like grades are bad and like,
(14:47):
you know, we should get rid ofgrading.
But I've, I've always in theback of my mind wondered, can
someone play, paint me a pictureof what the vision is without
grades, because I actually don'tthink I understand what it wa
is, that's not you, you don'twanna paint it, you don't wanna
do it.
Rob Baier (15:02):
no, I think, so our mutual friend Nolan, Nolan
Fossum, he, you know, was, wasworking around like un grading
at one point and
Vanessa Vakharia (15:13):
Yes.
What, what is it?
Rob Baier (15:14):
well, and, and it posed some, some problems where
he was providing feedback in theprocess and, the problems that,
that he was getting was like,it's still like, it's a pushback
from like a community and like,you still have to put grades
in, especially as a high schoolteacher, because then it's like
how, you know, if kids are ontheir way to college and
university, like they need it ontheir transcript,
Vanessa Vakharia (15:37):
Yeah,
Rob Baier (15:37):
that makes grades important for that.
what he was doing was,providing, an assessment score
on what they know in thatmoment, that can be improved on
and should be improved on as youcontinue practicing that skill
over time.
it, like
Vanessa Vakharia (15:54):
so, okay.
Rob Baier (15:55):
what he was thinking about, right.
And like, I, I didn't get todive too much into that, but for
me, a world without grades,like, I don't know what it would
look like.
I think it's more out offeedback and like knowing where
they, where students are andwhat they know and what they're
capable of doing.
Like, like let's think aboutlike, And like we're adulting
right now.
Like we are in the middle ofadulting.
That's what we're trying to do,right?
(16:17):
This whole
Vanessa Vakharia (16:18):
Like, what does that mean?
Like living life as an adult?
Rob Baier (16:20):
adult.
Like it's, that's not thefantasy land that kids are in.
Like we
Vanessa Vakharia (16:25):
Okay.
Yeah,
Rob Baier (16:26):
of adulting.
Like I, I'm married with threekids.
That's adulting.
Like, that's, and,
Vanessa Vakharia (16:31):
but I'm not married with three kids.
Am I still adulting?
Rob Baier (16:34):
Adulting because you are grinding with, with your,
your band.
You're going on tour, you're,you have books, you are speaking
engagements.
Like you're doing all thethings.
You know what you're not doing?
Worrying about like, okay, oh,I'm going to eat, you know,
these meals, I'm gonna go hangout with my friends all the
time.
I'm gonna, I have no bills.
I have nothing to pay for.
Vanessa Vakharia (16:55):
Okay.
Rob Baier (16:56):
very kid oriented.
Remember those days?
Vanessa Vakharia (16:59):
Like we're responsible for caring of
ourselves.
Rob Baier (17:01):
It's the worst.
it's the worst.
Vanessa Vakharia (17:05):
Okay.
Rob Baier (17:06):
Okay.
So, so in the, in the adultworld, like we don't receive
grades, like
Vanessa Vakharia (17:13):
Okay.
Rob Baier (17:14):
receive feedback, like,
Vanessa Vakharia (17:16):
Hmm.
Rob Baier (17:17):
feedback then we learn from our feedback, like
feedback that's provided.
When you and I present, we willreceive like feedback, whether
it's through social media orsomebody emailing us, or like, I
always put up a QR code so thatway they can provide me, you
know, feedback in the moment towhat they like, what they didn't
like, like, then I learned fromit.
Within feedback, like we learnas adults, so like why are we
(17:40):
giving kids like the statusgrade as opposed to like
valuable feedback that couldlearn, you know, lean into
something.
Like, I also think you know,people who sell things on
online, uh, whether it's throughlike Etsy or like Amazon or
wherever, like wherever you'reselling Facebook marketplace,
um, if you're doing any of thosethings, like you get feedback,
people are
Vanessa Vakharia (18:01):
But you got grades also.
You got, yeah, but you also gota five star, you got a star
system.
Rob Baier (18:05):
okay, that's a star system.
Is that a grade that's notreally a status symbol.
It's like, Hey, you did
Vanessa Vakharia (18:09):
Why isn't that a grade?
Hold on a second.
It's out of five.
Rob Baier (18:13):
a grade that's more of like,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:14):
Well define A grade.
Okay, I'm sorry.
We should really have startedwith what is Define A grade
then.
What's a grade?
Rob Baier (18:20):
I, I think a grade is more, of like a status thing at
this point, like the stars aremore like based on I think
that's feedback on, like it's areview of, of you and your
process.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:32):
Hard disagree because if somebody goes to look
at like at, okay, you knowwhat, actually this brings up a
very good point.
'cause you know what reallygrinds my gears and I don't
understand, you know what Idon't understand is when people
say, we've gotten rid ofgrading.
We did this in Canada lastyear, in BC.
We've gotten rid of grading.
So now students only get anumber between one and four,
(18:54):
that's a fucking grade.
And all the parents are like,okay, so they've gotten rid of
like a, B, C 90 80.
But I'm still looking for theone to four.
And I would agree that I wouldalso add, when you go to Amazon
or Google or something, you lookfor something with the highest
rating to tell you how good thatthing is.
How is that not a grade?
What's the difference?
Rob Baier (19:16):
That's a good question.
know what really grinds mygears?
no,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:22):
What
Rob Baier (19:23):
I, I actually, this is, um, this is a very nuanced
conversation and I, I don't seemyself as a grading expert at
all.
Okay.
I wanna be very
Vanessa Vakharia (19:31):
Totally.
Rob Baier (19:31):
transparent with that.
So I don't like,
Vanessa Vakharia (19:34):
Sure.
Rob Baier (19:35):
I, I, I would much rather us have a, continue the
conversation on what is a grade,let's define a grade like are,
are five star ratings a grade.
Like, that's like, I wouldrather have a conversation with
around that than, know, anythingelse about like, oh, you don't
know what grades are.
No, I don't wanna talk aboutthat.
But I think we need to reallyfocus on like, okay, like we are
(19:58):
giving star ratings, right?
The uber Lyft, like, like weget star
Vanessa Vakharia (20:03):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (20:04):
on whatever, but else are we giving feedback?
So maybe, maybe what we'reunpacking here is that A grade,
when you have a report card,whatever, there's no feedback to
it
Vanessa Vakharia (20:16):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (20:16):
a number maybe attached to it.
Like, Hey, you have a 98 A.
Okay, great.
What does that mean?
You got an A?
if I have a five star rating orlet, let's say I have a four
and a half star rating.
Well, why do I not have a five?
Oh, let's look.
And you can actually see likecomments and you can see things
like that.
Vanessa Vakharia (20:32):
Yep.
Rob Baier (20:32):
I think that's different.
And this might, you know what Iactually think.
Maybe I'll start doing likestar ratings, for my
presentations when I dopresentations, like have
somebody rate me like, well zeroto five stars, and then provide
feedback just like I'm a anUber driver or a Lyft driver.
And, and then like, maybe I'llcreate an app.
Maybe this is my million dollaridea where I'll create an app
(20:54):
for educators, for, uh, peoplewho are presenting that if they
want feedback and they wannalearn more, like, because like,
let's be honest, I've seen a lotof presentations in schools.
We should probably have a starrating.
Like there should
Vanessa Vakharia (21:07):
I love this idea.
There should be a start.
Rob Baier (21:10):
I'm glad this is
Vanessa Vakharia (21:10):
You've started,
Rob Baier (21:11):
I said it first.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:13):
you've also started with maybe un grading to
like now let, we don't receivegrade as adults to be like,
let's actually give more adultsgrades.
That's what I'm hearing hashappened.
Well,
Rob Baier (21:24):
no, I know.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:25):
I dunno.
Rob Baier (21:25):
No, no.
What I said was, we shouldgive, we should give more star
ratings with feedback becauselike, if you think about this,
okay, let's think about this,okay, on the dating scene, I
haven't dated in years, but onthe dating scene,
Vanessa Vakharia (21:39):
David has David get in on this.
Rob Baier (21:41):
hop in on this.
Vanessa Vakharia (21:42):
He's so pissed.
Rob Baier (21:45):
I have, you know, like friends who, who have been
dating and things like that, andsomebody who just got back on
the dating scene and, and
Vanessa Vakharia (21:51):
Oh yeah.
Rob Baier (21:52):
they were like, would you be nice, like if, like,
hey, you could pull up like thisperson's a, a five star person.
Like they're a great person.
Okay.
Hey, this person's a two and ahalf stars.
Why are they two and a halfstars?
Massive red flags.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:03):
Based on what?
What would you base that on?
You could see how that could goso wrong in the dating world.
Rob Baier (22:08):
could be, yeah, for
Vanessa Vakharia (22:09):
We're riffing we're
Rob Baier (22:11):
We're riffing on this.
Vanessa Vakharia (22:12):
that could,
Rob Baier (22:12):
I like,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:13):
that's a very per,
Rob Baier (22:14):
on some things, let's give stars on everything.
Right?
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:17):
okay.
Okay.
Rob Baier (22:18):
this
Vanessa Vakharia (22:18):
That's a hot take.
Rob Baier (22:20):
You ready?
This is where Debate Math comesinto play.
So,
Vanessa Vakharia (22:23):
I was gonna say this would be great for
Debate Math.
What is a grade is a,
Rob Baier (22:27):
well, I'm gonna go a different direction on this
because reason why Chris and Ido the podcast is like, we want
to have reasoning, right?
And so whenever you say, youknow, you, you, you're allowed
to have opinions, but you shouldalso have reasonings with this.
So provide reasoning.
So this is a healthyconversation about something
that we started with, you know,like no grades to now, like
(22:48):
we're doing five star ratings ondating profiles.
But, but with, with all ofthis, all I'm saying is like, we
have tried to unpack and, and,and provide reasoning to, to
everything that we were justtalking about.
And when you asked me, well,aren't stars, you know, grades,
wait a second, what are grades?
I think that's probably wherewe need to start.
(23:11):
From anything.
So what, what,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:13):
I agree.
Rob Baier (23:15):
we have, we, there's probably gonna be, there are
probably gonna be some, somemisconceptions and misalignments
on definitions.
Once we start to definesomething, then we build off of
that definition.
We can, may still be, you know,on the opposite ends, but at
least we have a clear definitionon what it is we're talking
(23:35):
about.
And we can take that part out.
So, yeah, so look at that fullcircle.
Vanessa Vakharia (23:42):
That's exactly, by the way, this is
actually really full circlebecause right before you, I
interviewed Pam Harris, and thisis exactly what happened to us,
is like halfway through adisagreement we were like, wait
a second, we're defining thisterm the wrong way.
We were like, we've never evendefined algorithm, like are we
going by the same definition ofwhat an algorithm even is.
So I actually do think this isreally, really important.
And it's true, I didn't meanfor this whole thing to be about
(24:04):
grading, but now you've reallygotten me thinking.
And I just was like, we alwayshave interesting discussions
because it is this nuance thing.
And I've a, I actually thinkit's really important to be
like, you kind of started thisby being like, but what is
assessment for?
Is it just to get a grade?
And then it's like, okay, butthen what is a grade and what is
that even for?
And I actually do think it'sreally interesting because now
(24:24):
I'm hearing you be like, well,hold on a second.
The five star system isdifferent because you're also
getting feedback.
And then I would, I wouldtotally lobb it back to you and
be like, okay, so as long as I'mgiving someone a grade and I'm
writing a comment next to it, isthat okay?
And I don't think
Rob Baier (24:40):
I don't know if it's that simplistic.
Vanessa Vakharia (24:43):
No, it's not.
It's obviously not, but it'slike, it's, it's an interesting
idea of why are we givinggrades?
It kind of seems like thereason we're doing it is because
we know that our, our studentsare in a pipeline where grades
will eventually be requiredbecause we as educators, our
goal is for them to learnsomething, right?
That is our goal.
(25:03):
So if our goal is for them tolearn something, does our
grading system help or hinderthat?
Well, it kind of seems likeit's hindering that because the
whole thing is we give them agrade at the end of a quote
unquote unit, and then we justmove the fuck on.
And we're grading where theyare with a concept at a certain
point in time with no,motivation, let's even say as
(25:27):
educators to help them continueto master that concept later on.
And no motivation for thestudent to continue to master
that concept later on.
Because the unit's over,they're never gonna get tested
on it again.
So what the fuck's the point?
So if our goal is for them tolearn, the way we are grading,
at the very least, seems tohinder that.
And it provides no feedback orinformation.
(25:47):
Because ideally in a world, astudent would learn something,
they would do whatever theywould do, they would hand in
their paper or whatever theassessment is, and we'd be able
to say, all right, awesome.
Here's how close you are tothis.
Here's what you need to workon.
Here's la, la la, la, la, la,la.
And that would be the feedbackthey would get so they could
continue to learn, which is thegoal.
Rob Baier (26:05):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:06):
Did that make sense, what I said?
I think so.
Okay.
So it's like, obviously there'sa, there's an issue here, but
they're also stuck in thispipeline, so we don't know what
to even do with them, becauseeventually they'll need a grade.
And I think we just have tomove on from this because we
need to now talk to a gradingexpert who has the answers, and
I guess we have to find thisperson.
Because I'd like to evenimagine, yeah,
Rob Baier (26:23):
was gonna say like, like this is exactly like where,
like, this is why I'm on thefence with this.
Like there's, like you,
Vanessa Vakharia (26:30):
right.
Rob Baier (26:30):
whole conversation started because you said.
What, what are you on the fenceon?
Like with like
Vanessa Vakharia (26:35):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (26:36):
and this conversation ex, that's exactly what like, I
mean there's other, there areother things that I'm on the
fence with, but that this isexactly why I am on the fence
with it because
Vanessa Vakharia (26:46):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (26:47):
I think school to school, teacher to teacher, like
in a building, teacher toteacher, there's a different
definition for grades and whatshould be graded and and all of
that.
And then there's also differentdefinitions for assessment and
what are
Vanessa Vakharia (27:00):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (27:01):
and whether it's formative assessment or
summative assessment and, ohwait, let's not get into that.
Like what are formativeassessments?
Well, that could be
Vanessa Vakharia (27:08):
We can't.
Rob Baier (27:10):
Oh, but this is a summative assessment, but I see
it as formative.
Like there are so many nuancesin education, which makes it
incredibly hard to have aconversation like this and have
a definitive answer.
Like, all this is gonna bedoing is like allowing us to, to
structure a way to have morereasons.
Which is great, then
Vanessa Vakharia (27:31):
Maybe that's an incredible goal though.
Rob Baier (27:34):
incredible goal, but then I love to always follow
with action.
And in this moment
Vanessa Vakharia (27:38):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (27:38):
there, there aren't any actionable steps because
it's gonna take way more than,know, a handful of people having
this conversation, havinggeneral understanding.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:50):
Well, it's true, but I would almost like,
as we wrap up this particularconvo and move to a new topic, I
actually think there is anaction because I think it can be
so frustrating to feel likewe're talking in circles and
then being like, not that we'retalking in circles, but being
like, oh my God, we've talkedabout all this and there's no
answer.
We crave an answer.
We crave a certain answer.
We want things to be black andwhite because it's so much
(28:11):
easier.
And guess what?
That's not how the world is.
They're not black and white.
And I think the coolest thingis that you and I can see all
these shades of gray and we cansay we're on the fence.
Instead of just doubling downand saying, Nope, I'm sticking
to this belief because I said itonce.
You know?
I actually think that's wherethe beauty is.
And we are educators, so weshould be constantly learning
and questioning our beliefs.
And I think an action at apoint like this might be like,
(28:32):
yeah, we're on the fence.
We're not really sure.
But one thing you and I havekind of come to is the most
important part of the learningprocess when it comes to
assessment is feedback.
So guess what?
Everyone, you gotta give yourgrades.
Cool, do it.
But you know what you can do.
Also while you're givinggrades, you can add a caveat to
all of your students and belike, Hey look, I'm giving a
grade because that's what I'vegotta do in this moment.
(28:52):
But also I really actuallywanna focus on the learning
part.
Here is some useful feedback togo along with it.
You know, like that is anaction we can take and other
actions we can take aroundgrading as and assessment,
depending on where you are,obviously we all have our own
red tape, is you can allow, alot of us have a bit of leeway
to allow students to retake anassessment later down the line.
(29:14):
You know, like I always usethis example of being like a
student fails a a test on commondenominators.
They see a failed mark.
A month later they fail a teston adding fractions.
They see a failure.
But you know what they gotright in that adding fractions
test, they managed to do everysingle common denominator.
And they never get rewarded forit.
Rob Baier (29:33):
Yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (29:33):
Right?
Because, because they never, soyou could as a teacher be like,
you know what, babe?
I saw that you got all thosecommon denominators, right?
What if you just take thatcommon denominators test again
now
Rob Baier (29:43):
Or,
Vanessa Vakharia (29:44):
anyways, okay.
Whatever.
Rob Baier (29:45):
or even, even more so for me, you know, they do well
on the, on the commondenominator test, you know, or
adding common denominators.
And I look at that as like,okay, so like, what didn't they
do well.
Didn't get the right answer?
Ok.
But look at the process.
Where are they struggling?
Okay, so instead of like an
Vanessa Vakharia (30:06):
Yes.
Rob Baier (30:06):
C, D, maybe it's like a, hey, it's like three and a
half stars be, and here's why.
Like, your process was reallygood.
You know, when you're doing,you know, conversions and trying
to get those commondenominators, like you made
some, some mistakes, somecalculation errors, which then
made your answer incorrect atthe end.
Oh my gosh.
As a student, excuse me, as astudent, I'm like, oh, I made a
(30:29):
mistake here.
I know what, what I did at theend.
Like, I know how to fix this.
opposed to sorry, you, youfailed this.
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:38):
Totally.
I think the feedback isimportant and the feedback also
shows our students that webelieve they can improve.
We're not just slapping a gradedown and saying, move on.
We're saying, I'm giving youfeedback because I think you can
take the feedback and then dosomething with it.
I kind of wanna ask how youknow, we, we talk about, this is
a podcast about math trauma andmath anxiety, how you think
(30:59):
these current practices ofassessment, or even the way we
teach in a nons spiraledfashion, just unit after unit
might contribute to math traumain some students.
Do you ever think about that?
Like how that might actuallylike cause math anxiety.
Rob Baier (31:14):
yeah, I actually have recently, because as, as I,
this, that Netflix analogy isone that, you know, internally
at Innovamat we've, we've talkedabout a lot and it's, I think
Albert's the one that kind ofcame up with it and it makes
sense.
And you know, for me, as, as Istarted to reflect on unit
teaching, you know, if a studentdoes really well at the end of
(31:36):
a unit on a unit test, threemonths later, you know, they
have a cumulative exam, maybeit's like a midterm.
And they bomb the midterm.
And the part that they reallystruggle with is that unit one
stuff.
And now you're thinking like,second, I, maybe I'm stupid at
(31:57):
math.
Like I knew it at one point andI forgot it already.
Maybe I'm just not good atthis.
Like, why can't I remember it?
Well, you can't remember itbecause it's not your fault.
Like you, you learned it in a,in a block, like a block, like a
unit, and then you never use itagain.
Like, you didn't, like continuepracticing those skills over
(32:17):
and over
Vanessa Vakharia (32:18):
Right.
Rob Baier (32:19):
right?
Like, like I'm pretty, so, forinstance, growing up, my dad
showed me how to change oil outof a, of a car.
He, he said, I need, you needto know how to do this.
And he did this whole thing.
He showed me once I helped him,once.
have not done that again in myentire life.
(32:40):
And.
of fact, I would rather paysomebody to do it because I'm
gonna screw this up.
And if I were to do this now, Imean, I'm pretty sure I could,
could empty the oil and then putit
Vanessa Vakharia (32:57):
I would not trust you.
Whatever you're doing with yourface, I would not let you near
my car.
Rob Baier (33:01):
would look at, look, I, I wouldn't let me near your
car either or mine or anybody's.
If I, if somebody's like, Hey,I want you to change the oil on
my car, I'd be like, all right,your keys.
And then I would take it tosomebody and have them do it and
come back.
But the, the, what I'm, thepoint I'm trying to get to is
like, I was shown that in amoment, and then when I needed
(33:22):
to help the next time was ableto do it in that moment, I have
not practiced that skill rest ofmy life.
I was a teenager then.
I am at least double the agethat I was when he shared that
with me.
There's no way in the world I'mgonna remember that.
Now, on the other side of that,like, I love to cook.
(33:43):
I love to, I love to cook.
I love to, like what somethingI, I do a lot for my kids 'cause
I have a, a, a Blackstone Grillis I love to make like hibachi
make hibachi
Vanessa Vakharia (33:54):
Oh my God.
What?
Invite us over.
Rob Baier (33:57):
like rice and, and shrimp.
But it's something that like,I've been crafting and trying to
work on the flavors and stuff,and I keep
Vanessa Vakharia (34:03):
Mm.
Rob Baier (34:04):
I keep getting better at it.
And, it's to the point nowwhere like my middle son will
say, Hey, I, I want hibachitonight.
And like, we'll go get thisstuff.
don't look at a recipe anymore.
It's something I know because Ipracticed it overover time, but
I also failed fixed, failed andfixed, failed and fixed.
(34:24):
And I was able to
Vanessa Vakharia (34:25):
Rupture and repair
Rob Baier (34:27):
Yeah.
So if we wanna talk like a,like a trauma, like if
somebody's like, Hey, here's,here's the keys to my car.
Can you, can you change theoil?
Yeah.
It's, it's like a, a a, aflight or fight response a
little bit.
I'm like, I don't know what thehell I'm doing.
Going back to math, samething's true for like units.
you don't practice those skillsor tie those to other concepts
(34:49):
within, and it's just like, Hey,here's this.
Let's move on.
Here's this,
Vanessa Vakharia (34:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rob Baier (34:53):
And then, you know, by the end of the year and the
elementary grades, they're like,we didn't get to geometry.
Third grade comes along.
We didn't get to geometrybecause that's unit 14.
Well, then kids get to 4thgrade, and they go I didn't get,
sorry, didn't get to geometry.
'Cause that's unit 15.
Oh, then they get to fifthgrade and the teacher goes, you
don't know what a quadrilateralis?
Because third grade and fourthgrade, they didn't learn it.
(35:17):
And then in
Vanessa Vakharia (35:18):
Well,
Rob Baier (35:19):
and this,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:19):
okay.
Rob Baier (35:20):
standard take, but then in fifth grade, now that
fifth grade student, going totrauma, that 5th grade student's
going, I must be dumb.
'cause I'm like, that teachersaid I'm supposed to know the
quadrilateral is by fifth grade.
That's not their fault.
Vanessa Vakharia (35:32):
Yeah, there's two different things here
because I mean that that ladderexample is like they literally
didn't learn something, but yourfirst example of mastering
something in a moment, thennever revisiting it, then being
asked to do it and thinking toyourself, I don't remember it.
I actually love that youbrought this up because it's so
funny you say this.
(35:53):
I was literally just talking toRaj about this on the podcast.
We were talking about cars aswell, and I was saying, I
learned how to change a flattire once, right?
Like, and I, I did it.
I, I learned how to do it and Idid it.
I have not used that skillsince, and I don't know how to
do it.
Now.
What's happened, and I bet youthere's a phenomenon for this.
I wanna look it up after.
It's almost made me feelstupider than if I had never
(36:15):
learned how to fix the flat tirein the first place.
Because now my story is I knewhow to do it once and now I
don't.
Which means I can't rememberthings.
And I, it was so foggy.
It was so long ago.
Maybe it was too hard.
Maybe I didn't really know howto do it.
Now my story is about myability to learn things as
(36:37):
opposed to being able to say,well, no one ever showed it to
me.
Maybe I could learn it.
So I actually think this is avery interesting point.
That we teach students in thisway in which they get this taste
of understanding something, butthen later can't remember it
because we've taught in unitsinstead of spiraling.
It almost adds to their storyof, well, I was never really
(36:57):
good at it, if I can't do itnow.
Rob Baier (37:00):
Can I add
Vanessa Vakharia (37:00):
I, I actually think that's, yeah, please,
Rob Baier (37:03):
the
Vanessa Vakharia (37:03):
yeah.
Rob Baier (37:03):
other layer to that, and this is bringing it back to
what we were talking about atthe beginning.
If they're not able to not onlypractice the skill, but to
reason and be able to share andhave conversations and be able
to process, that's anotherblocker for them that, oh, okay,
I didn't, I don't remember thisfrom before, but also like,
(37:24):
they didn't get to practice orlike process through, you know,
going back to where I wastalking about, you know, the
weekly shows, the reason we wereable to process that was
through conversation andreasoning,
Vanessa Vakharia (37:33):
Mm.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Rob Baier (37:35):
like, I, I really believe that like, like there
needs to be a lot more reasoningand processing, but also like,
we can't just learn somethingand move on and, and like think
it's not connected, which Iguess, you know, takes us to an
even bigger issue with, withmath education and in general is
like, we allow that becauseit's so standards driven.
And high stakes testing still.
(37:56):
And, we allow that and it's,and we, we set up, um, a sandbox
that we're trying to play inthat has rules that nobody
really likes.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:05):
Is this just a, well, it's because it's
always been done this way, or doyou think that there's a
conspiracy going on why we'rekeeping it this way?
Rob Baier (38:12):
I think a large part of it is it's always been done
this way and it's somethingthat's comfortable.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:16):
Yeah.
Rob Baier (38:16):
years ago it was the race to calculus, which is still
kind of a thing, but it was arace to calculus.
But why did the race tocalculus even occur?
Well, it's because we were, wasa space race and we were trying
to get to the moon.
And
Vanessa Vakharia (38:30):
What, is that an analogy, or is that real?
Rob Baier (38:33):
real.
And, and the United,
Vanessa Vakharia (38:34):
Oh, oh, really?
Actually.
Rob Baier (38:35):
United, like the, like the United States, we
started to really push calculusand race to get every kid to
take calculus because we had,basically we were trying to get
to the moon before any other
Vanessa Vakharia (38:49):
When was this?
Do you think people haveactually been to the moon or do
you think it's all fabricated?
Rob Baier (38:56):
next que
Vanessa Vakharia (38:57):
wondering.
Okay.
We have to, we have to wrap up.
I don't know how we've beentalking for this long, but this
is just like gone in the oddest,but I'm so into this direction
to be honest, because it'sbrought up a lot of really
interesting things.
Rob Baier (39:13):
I am so excited to see how David's gonna edit this.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:17):
I dunno how he's gonna do it.
This is definitely, he's gothis work cut out for him.
I'll tell you that.
Rob Baier (39:21):
very
Vanessa Vakharia (39:21):
But like,
Rob Baier (39:22):
probably mad at me, but I, I'm not around him.
So.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:27):
I really do, honestly, the thing I really
love about you, it's, it's, Isaid this at the beginning and
then it just showed through ourconversation that, you and I
love, we, we are not scared ofnuance.
We're not the type of peoplewho are like, no, I need to just
have a right answer and know,and I honestly think that's what
makes you such a valuableeducator and such a valuable,
like coach for other teachersbecause you can see all the
(39:49):
different perspectives and waysto do things.
And I know in your work withInnovamat, you have a way of
teaching math that honors a lotof what you're talking about.
Is that correct?
Rob Baier (39:57):
True.
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (39:58):
If there was a teacher listening to this right
now who was like, you know, Ireally, this spiraling thing
sounds cool, but I don't evenknow where to start.
What advice do you have forthem?
Rob Baier (40:07):
Call us.
No.
Vanessa Vakharia (40:09):
Call Innovamat.
Rob Baier (40:11):
I mean, I, I, I think that there's a, there's a lot
of research out there and I, Iencourage anybody, whenever
somebody tries to throw researchin your face, read it yourself
and then also try to likeactively seek counter arguments,
that way you can formalize theideas yourself.
I think start there.
So, so read about what it is,how you could do it in terms of
(40:32):
resources, like, I mean,truthfully, like, as a company,
Vanessa Vakharia (40:36):
Gimme something quick.
Rob Baier (40:37):
there's
Vanessa Vakharia (40:38):
Something quick they can do.
Rob Baier (40:39):
well, there's not really anything quick you can
do.
Have to
Vanessa Vakharia (40:42):
Okay.
Fair.
Rob Baier (40:43):
You have to understand, like, I would,
there's nothing quick I, but youneed to dive into like how
students actually learn.
There's a lot of research thereand especially with like
learning progressions orlearning trajectories, like dive
into that.
Uh,
Vanessa Vakharia (40:58):
But you guys have a whole curriculum, right?
Like if a teacher was like,look, I don't wanna read the
science behind this, I believeeverything you said on Vanessa's
amazing podcast, I just wannado it, and I'm a grade three
math teacher.
Can they just like get thisfrom you?
Can they get a lesson on howto, they can get a whole
resource and how to teach theirgrade three curriculum in a
spiraled way?
Rob Baier (41:16):
that'd be a stretch, but we could try.
Yeah.
I, there it's not easy.
This isn't an easy, like,there's, there's not an easy
answer for this one, to behonest.
I wish I could tell you otherthan like finding spiral
curriculums that are already outthere.
There's not an easy way,because most curriculums are,
are written in unit format.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:35):
What's, okay, so we don't even have to put
this in, but now I'm justcurious.
What is a Innovamats curriculumlike?
Rob Baier (41:40):
Spiral.
Vanessa Vakharia (41:42):
But, so I'm trying to, hello?
So can you just tell people tojust call you up?
You're like, it's impossible.
It's so hard.
No
Rob Baier (41:49):
then you said, oh, just call you.
But what's something easy?
Vanessa Vakharia (41:52):
Okay.
I dunno what part of this isgonna be kept on.
He's trying to, not selfpromote, but he, what we're
saying here is Innovamat.
This is not a pitch for aInnovamat, but there is a
resource out there that has allthe, all the grades spiraled for
you.
Rob Baier (42:04):
I will tell you that, okay.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:06):
Is this reverse psychology?
Is this like, don't call me,don't whatever.
Rob Baier (42:10):
No, no.
Listen, like, so yeah.
I, I, this, I was not intendingto like, have any type of
self-promotion or promotionwhatsoever.
With that said, at, at aInnovamat, at a Innovamat,
Vanessa Vakharia (42:26):
Don't cut any of this.
It's so good.
Rob Baier (42:28):
We have a spiral, a learning trajectory, that is
based off of how students learnmathematics.
We have partnered and areendorsed by Peter Liljedahl,
Vanessa's best friend
Vanessa Vakharia (42:40):
Oh, here we go.
Rob Baier (42:42):
and our core curriculum is called Thinking
Math.
We get kids to think more inmath class in a, in a way that
they retain more over time.
And we also have interventionthat is used by Chicago Public
Schools and other really bigschools around the country.
yeah.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:59):
appreciate you not wanting to self-promote.
I also didn't want you toself-promote, but honestly I'm
also like, you know, spiralingsounds really, really
interesting and very beneficialand it's cool to know there's a
resource out there.
So I'm, you know, that you kindof played this well because it,
now it sounds like I'm forcingyou to sell yourself and you had
no hand in the matter.
It's smart, it's.
Rob Baier (43:18):
It's not, that is not what I tried to do though.
The only thing I didintentionally and I can't wait,
okay, David, keep this part in.
I am so thankful to be on thispodcast, and I hope that this
clip right here shows thatVanessa made me put her book at
the top and then Chris's book atthe bottom or in the middle.
(43:42):
Uh, no, don't, you can cut allthat, but
Vanessa Vakharia (43:46):
We love you.
Okay, final two questions.
Rob Baier (43:50):
questions.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:50):
has been so fun.
Rob Baier (43:51):
ahead.
Vanessa Vakharia (43:52):
No, rapid fire questions.
If there's one thing you couldchange about the way math is
taught in schools, what would itbe?
Rob Baier (43:59):
Get students to talk more about their reasons for why
they believe, what they believefor an answer, for a process,
anything like that.
Like hear what they're thinkingthat way we can address like
what their conceptions are ormisconceptions are.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:16):
Love it.
And number two, someone's like,cool, cool, cool.
Yeah, but I'm just not really amath person.
Doesn't really matter how youteach me.
I'm just not a math person.
Rob Baier (44:24):
I typically have a conversation with them about
what they do for, for work.
talk about like their life and,and things like that.
And then literally dissect howthey're doing math all the time.
so,
Vanessa Vakharia (44:36):
Okay.
Rob Baier (44:36):
clearly a math person 'cause you literally do it all
the time.
And that's from reasoning, fromorganizing, from estimating
when you go to the grocery storeto estimating your Amazon cart
as you're clicking through allthe things you wanna buy to, you
know, all of those things, youare doing math all the time.
I'm not a math person is a bsthing to say.
And on top of that, you comingat, at anybody, any educator,
(45:00):
saying that common core and, howthe standards are, like all
this new math and you know, I,why aren't they, they teach in
the way that I learned, myquestion to you is, did you like
math?
And do you want us to stillteach it the way that you
learned it?
So you're saying you don't likemath, you hate math, math.
Isn't your thing, math isn'tyour jam.
(45:21):
But you want us to teach yourkids the same way.
That's crazy.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:26):
Drop the fucking mic.
Go off King.
And on that note, that's a, whydo I keep saying that's a wrap?
I've said it like four times.
Okay, Rob,
Rob Baier (45:38):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (45:38):
been a pleasure.
Rob Baier (45:40):
Vanessa.
Thank you.
Vanessa Vakharia (45:43):
See you guys.
I told you I was not lying.
Rob is the real deal.
I'm still like not over thiswhole space race calculus thing.
I think it's so crazy that oureducation system is still like
mostly based around society'sneeds from literally decades
ago.
If learning should be about thefuture, why is education so
stuck in the past?
And you know what, I'm alsoreally sitting here thinking
(46:04):
about assessment.
I know it's a hot topic, but tome it's just this other thing
that we do the same way wealways have and like haven't
adjusted to be like, wait asecond, what exactly are we
doing here and why are we doingit?
If you're thinking some of thesesame thoughts, please share
this episode.
Send it to a teacher who'sstruggling to connect,
assessment to practice, or acolleague who's in the process
(46:24):
of rethinking the why behindtheir instructional practices,
or literally anyone who's everthought, but why are we doing
this stuff and how can I be apart of the solution?
And since I'm all fired up aboutassessment right now, here is
your Math Therapy homework.
This week I want you to reflecton the way you use assessment
in the classroom and considerwhat it is you want to be
assessing and whether or not theform of assessment that you're
(46:46):
using actually as assesses thatthing.
I'm curious what you'lldiscover.
If it's a yes, how does thatmake you feel?
If it's a no, how does thatmake you feel?
And is there some tweak youcould be making?
And you guys know the drill.
Text the podcast, DM me onInstagram at The Math Guru, or
email me atvanessa@themathguru.ca.
Links are all in the shownotes, and I wanna know what
(47:07):
this brought up for you.
I love hearing from you guys.
And finally, remember my book,Math Therapy is now available
on.
All audiobook platformsnarrated by me and my Math
Therapy merch line is out, and Ireleased a special little drop
in the middle of my tour.
So head tomaththerapy.com/merch and get
yourself something cute or maybeget something cute for one of
(47:27):
your besties because theholidays are fast approaching.
And guys, Math Therapy isproduced and edited by the one
and only David Kochberg who'salso in my band, Goodnight
Sunrise.
And I bring that up because ourtheme music that you're
listening to is by our band,Goodnight Sunrise.
You can find new episodesweekly of Math Therapy because
we are now a weekly podcast.
So what's happening next week?
(47:48):
Who knows?
You're gonna have to listen tofind out.
Oh my God.
Yes.
Chris has picked up.
okay.
Sorry.
I'm just recording the intro toRob's session and we are having
a debate about, we're having adebate, there we go.
is it Rob Baier or Baier?
Uh, are you recording this,David?
We have Chris Luzniak.
Is it Luzniak or Luzniak?
(48:09):
Is it Luzniak?
You go with either?
All right.
Oh my God.
David is yelling in my ear.
"He said that when youinterviewed him, Vanessa." Okay,
I love you.
Sorry.
You know I wanna talk to youmore, but I have to record this.
Thank you for coming in Clutch.
Rob Baier.
Okay, there we go.
Oh, Rob is calling me back.
Rob is calling me Rob, I'vegot, I got Rob on the horn.
I got Rob on the horn.
Okay, here's Rob.
(48:30):
what I called you for is I'mcurrently recording the intro to
your session and I said, RobBaier and David yelled, it's Rob
Baier.
So we called you and you didn'tpick up, so then we called
Chris Luzniak.
We're recording all of this.
This is amazing.
This is gonna be the best introever to our unhinged episode.
Okay.
We have to go.
We have to go.
Okay.
Love you.
Okay.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Okay.
Okay.
You can use that however youwant.
(48:51):
Okay.
Here we go.
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