August 4, 2025 • 29 mins
You’re Not Hiring a Marketer, You’re Hiring a Mindset
You’re not just looking for someone to run your ads—you’re trusting someone to help grow your business. Big difference.
In this episode, we unpack the three things that actually matter when choosing a marketer: curiosity, empathy, and business sense.
Not who talks the loudest in the pitch meeting. Not who has the fanciest slides. Just real traits that drive results.
Inside the episode:
- What every frustrated business owner wishes they’d asked before hiring a marketer
- Why great marketing starts with listening, not selling
- How to spot the difference between a consultant and a copy-paster
- The one skill that makes any marketer dangerous—in a good way
If you’ve ever felt burned by bad marketing (or want to make sure you don’t), this one’s for you.
Maven Marketing Mastermind → https://www.mavenmethodtraining.com
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/frank-and-maven/
Host: Brandon Welch
Co-Host: Caleb Agee
Executive Producer: Carter Breaux
Audio/Video Producer: Nate the Camera Guy
Do you have a marketing problem you'd like us to help solve? Send it to MavenMonday@FrankandMaven.com!
Get a copy of our Best-Selling Book, The Maven Marketer Here:
https://a.co/d/1clpm8a
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brandon Welch (00:06):
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, brandon Welch,and I'm joined by Caleb, Check
out our fancy stop sign, Agee.
You look good holding that wewent to Home Depot and we bought
that thing and held it up,didn't?
Caleb Agee (00:18):
we.
Yes, yeah, it wasn't Canvamagic.
Brandon Welch (00:22):
We're talking about our new thumbnail, and a
couple weeks ago we challengedy'all to help us make our
thumbnails look better, and wegot some really good ideas.
I think Silas wins the prize,yes.
And his ideas led us to whatyou see on the little thing you
just clicked on if you were onYouTube.
Caleb Agee (00:41):
It goes away too fast.
As soon as you click on it, itloads up Cheers to.
Brandon Welch (00:46):
Silas, thank you.
He gets a membership to theMastermind.
What is that?
Why would he want?
Caleb Agee (00:55):
The Mastermind, the Maven Marketing Mastermind is
really.
It's kind of like this podcast,but on a deeper level.
Brandon Welch (01:03):
It's a two-way conversation.
Caleb Agee (01:04):
Yeah, it's your way really to to be able to actually
ask us live questions, causeI'm sure you have questions as
you listen to this.
You're saying but what abouthey Caleb?
What about that Brandon?
What about?
And um, the podcast reallygives you access to be on a call
, a group call, with othermarketers and small business
leaders, and, um, we get toanswer questions live.
(01:24):
People turn them in and, in agroup setting, we all get to
give feedback.
Brandon Welch (01:28):
We have community we have.
We even take some stuff for ourteam and and like there's some,
there's some stuff that'sgetting some pretty high level
like editing work, and just likeyour little fractional version
of this big awesome marketingteam that maybe you maybe you
have one, maybe you just wantsome more, maybe you have never
had one, maybe you are trying tobuild one and you just want
(01:49):
somebody beside you doing it.
That's the Maven MarketingMastermind.
You can join that atmavenmethodtrainingcom.
We're having a blast.
We're already seeing somebusinesses grow and just like
launch some things that theywouldn't have launched probably,
if your name's not Silas, youshould join that.
Caleb Agee (02:05):
Yeah, silas will be there free of charge because he
helped us.
Brandon Welch (02:11):
Yes, he will be there, and he will not remain,
silas, oh, okay.
Caleb Agee (02:14):
Just see what I did there.
I see it.
Yeah, let's get to it.
Brandon Welch (02:16):
So if you've ever tried to grow something or
you've been presented with amarketing idea or an advertising
sales pitch, whether yourealize it or not, you are about
to choose a marketer.
You're about to choose somebodyto help you grow your thing,
and the myths we talk about inthe book is that there's this
(02:36):
kind of assumption that we justneed to get our name out there,
people just need to know aboutit and then they'll buy it.
We talk about some other mythsthat are the branding myth.
Brand is a thing, but the waypeople talk about branding is
very often like not.
Caleb Agee (02:51):
Misconstrued.
Brandon Welch (02:52):
Yeah, it's missing traction.
Caleb Agee (02:54):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:56):
And then there's just a lot of things you're
about to hitch your wagon to,and most of the time when people
end up in our conference room,they're immensely frustrated
that something is not workingfor them.
They've probably wasted tens ofthousands of dollars and
they're just going, like I heard.
You guys are the ones thatmight tell me the truth about
(03:17):
this, and we're glad that that'sour reputation, but we wish it
didn't have to be injuxtaposition to the world.
So this episode is first andforemost for you if you are
considering either hiring maybean agency, or maybe it's an
actual employee or just anybodywho has Just a contractor that
might even do a one-off thing.
Yes, yes, good people, Everybodyhas good intentions and we're
(03:40):
not throwing rocks at our peersand our friends.
But what happens all too oftenin the business marketing
equation is that the artist orthe website builder or the ad
salesperson thinks their job isto do that thing and their job
is not that.
That is a byproduct.
Their job is to grow yourbusiness.
Their job is to make you moresuccessful.
And over the years, frankly,just hiring people ourselves and
(04:11):
then kind of like aligning withcertain peers in our industry
Like there are a lot of otheragencies we respect and have
wonderful relationships withWe've just kind of like gone.
Hey, we don't have to be yoursolution.
Actually, most of the time wearen't the ones that should
probably move this plan forward,because we have limited people
we can help.
But we say if you're going tofind a marketer, there are a few
(04:33):
things that should go withoutsaying.
They should be kind of good atthe thing.
If it's a Google person, theyought to know Google.
But also, you want these threeingredients and so we're going
to talk about that.
And then, inversely, if you areone of our media partner friends
and you want to stand out asone of the ones.
There's, like I would say, outof 50 media reps in any given
town, there's one that is like arock star.
(04:54):
They are a consultant, theywear this.
I mean no offense to any of theother ones.
I've lived in that world.
I love it.
These are some of our bestfriends to this day.
But the truth is that industrydoesn't automatically require
you to do this and they oftendon't reward it, so you kind of
have to have your own fire forthe things we're about to talk
(05:16):
about.
Yeah, and I would just say, ifyou want to be the one that is
like, instead of having to goprospect for business, people
are hunting you down to say, hey, will you do my stuff?
I promise these things will beyour friends.
So, without further ado, we'regoing to talk about the three
ingredients.
You want to just say it?
Caleb Agee (05:32):
Yeah, let's say it the three ingredients you want
to look for in a marketer arecuriosity, empathy and business
savvy.
So I'll say that one more timecuriosity, empathy and business
savvy.
Brandon Welch (05:45):
That doesn't sound like google.
That doesn't sound like, uh,award-winning copywriter.
That doesn't sound like, youknow, media buyer.
Yeah, what does that have to dowith my business, caleb?
Caleb Agee (05:54):
yeah, we're gonna.
Well, let me tell you, yeah,albert einstein says, I have no
special talents, I am onlypassionately curious.
Brandon Welch (06:03):
I think of the old Apple ads and how they just
highlighted these monumentalpeople.
Einstein was one of them.
Musicians are like this andit's like the people that wake
up.
Just I want to know more aboutthat.
Turns out they learn more aboutthat.
Yep, and right behind every adcampaign that didn't quite hit
(06:26):
the mark is somebody who justdidn't ask enough questions.
That's right.
It's never missed technology.
It's never probably lack ofcreativity.
It's always lack of alignment.
And how do you get aligned?
And how do you get aligned?
How does somebody who has themission or the job of growing
(06:48):
your company?
How do they know if they're notasking enough questions?
That's right.
Caleb Agee (06:51):
Yeah, and it seems you know curiosity.
You'll feel it very early whenyou sit down and meet with this
person.
If you're interviewing them orthey're pitching you God forbid
you will know pretty quickly ifthey're curious.
It'll be evident.
But obviously curiosity showsup most in questions and it's
(07:13):
not just leading questions.
Curiosity is genuine, it's real, it actually wants to know and
you can sense that really reallyquickly in any person.
That I think you can tell whenyou're in a line of questioning
like a lawyer, and you'resitting on the bench and you
feel like they're leading youDon't you want this and you're
(07:34):
like uh-huh, uh-huh.
Brandon Welch (07:35):
And you can see that smell that's patting you on
the head.
Caleb Agee (07:38):
Yeah, you're like uh-huh, wouldn't you like this?
Yes, I would Thank you, butcuriosity is genuine and real
and it's asking questions thathave, I think, nothing to do
with what that person is sellingme or doing.
It will have something to dowith it, but it's okay if it
deviates, because they aregenuinely curious, in this case,
(08:01):
about your business.
Brandon Welch (08:02):
Yeah, and that's where it's going to go.
It's a creepy thing to say, butit's almost like dating.
It's like you are.
I don't know anything aboutthat.
I did it one time and I did areally good job.
But it's like when you'regetting to know anybody, you
just everything's on the table.
Tell me more about that right.
And so we're not talking aboutlight conversation, we're not
(08:25):
talking about, you know,somebody who's good at being
bubbly and all of that.
Those are good skills to have.
Personally, and, by the way, Iwant to say this any amount of
training in a, in a media salesrole, somebody who's that's
their job and they've, they workfor some sort of company with
any amount of structure has gonethrough some sort of corporate
training and what's very oftencalled is the client needs
(08:46):
analysis.
Oh, cna, yeah, cna, bring it on.
You know what?
I love you, my CNA people,because at least we're doing
that step.
But very often it's just askingquestions so that they can run
right back and plug theirproduct in as the answer yes.
So we're not talking about that.
We're talking about somebodywho here's what it is If they
take interest in how you startedthis thing or why you started
(09:10):
this thing or why you do it acertain way, and not just to say
, oh well, we should put that inan ad.
No, Tell me more about that.
Caleb Agee (09:19):
Yeah, they'll start saying things like tell me more.
I think they'll catch thoselittle pain points that you have
that you'll maybe breeze overor you'll kind of say in passing
, but a truly curious personwill sense that and see that as
a true thing that you have toresolve or solve and they'll ask
you more about it.
(09:39):
They'll dig deeper, they'llfind those pain points and
they'll want to understand, well, what's causing that, what's
really causing that, and thething behind the thing.
Brandon Welch (09:48):
And you will sense that as soon as it happens
, and here's why that matters.
Roy Williams said writing goodads is easy when you have
something to say, and whatthey're doing now is they are
allowing themselves the positionof being your ad writer.
Even if they're not the oneactually writing the copy,
(10:10):
they're the consultant that'sgoing taking the things out of
your heart that are making yourcompany successful, whether you
realize it or not, and they'reable to read them back to you in
a way that you don't knowbecause it's so proprietary,
it's part of your DNA.
And when they can do that as athird party who is naturally
curious, naturally likeunreasonably excited about your
(10:33):
business, then they havepermission to go be your agent
for the world, versus goingthrough the motions to try to
bring you back a package orsomething to buy yes, the
motions to try to bring you backa package or something to buy,
yes.
Caleb Agee (10:47):
Or or checking the box to fill out a canned ad
script that won't move theneedle or connect with a person
yeah.
Brandon Welch (10:55):
And and that's, and I think this person does it
with a posture of I don't knowif I'm a good fit for you.
Caleb Agee (10:59):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (11:00):
But I would love to learn more about you, like,
if you feel any amount of that,you're on the right place.
Caleb Agee (11:05):
It'll show up.
You'll see them uncoveringunexpected things, things you
didn't even realize maybe weregetting in your way sometimes,
and they'll really actually beable to get to the heart of a
person.
Because it'll show up.
That curiosity shows up inwriting big time.
Brandon Welch (11:22):
And to my media, people who are listening like
find their origin story In theorigin story which, by the way,
we talk about this in the book.
Guys, this could take hours.
This probably does take hours,should take hours If you get
good at it.
Not that you want to rush it,but you can start learning the
(11:42):
questions that work for you.
But every entrepreneur willgive you a surface-level answer
oh, I'm the best, I just want tobe the best quality, I want to
be the.
Maybe sometimes I want to bethe biggest, or we want to have
100% customer satisfaction.
They're just saying things thatsound good because they think
that's what they should say.
What you really want is theperson that will pull the story
(12:05):
out of you that was not going tocome out any other way until
they politely grilled you andgave you the gift of their
curiosity.
Caleb Agee (12:14):
Yep, so that's what curiosity looks like, and we
really want to find people whotruly have that curiosity.
In that first interview, inthat first meeting, yeah, you'll
know it.
And in that first interview, inthat first meeting, you'll know
it right away.
But you'll know that they'llhave enough of that curiosity to
not just be a good marketer foryou but also to pull off the
(12:34):
kind of writing that you need.
They will be a filter.
Their curiosity will lead themto ask deeper questions.
Brandon Welch (12:43):
They won't just take you at face value, and
they'll go further.
Roosevelt said it best Peopledon't care how much you know
until they, and they'll gofurther.
Roosevelt said it best.
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care, like you know thatfeeling.
And then there's the why am Igoing blank on her name?
Caleb Agee (12:57):
People don't, will never remember what you said,
but they'll always remember howyou made them feel right.
Brandon Welch (13:01):
I can't remember the name.
Caleb Agee (13:01):
Goodness, somebody drop it in the comments right
now.
Brandon Welch (13:04):
Catch us on the lack of our wisdom there.
We're dropping bombs withoutcredit, given.
That's right.
That leads us right into that'sempathy, though right Empathy,
and so curiosity and empathy arelike they're a paired thing.
I think to have genuinecuriosity, you have to be
empathetic, and empathetic islike I want to know how you feel
(13:24):
, because if I know how you feel, I can make decisions on your
behalf or I can makerecommendations on your behalf.
Empathy also says I'm second,I'm backseat, let me just see
what you're up against.
(13:48):
I just want to help you and ifthat leads to know my product,
will also be a good part forthat, or maybe maybe we part, as
I just helped you.
Yeah, Um um.
We're talking about this quoteyesterday Um, what if our work
was never intended to make ussuccessful, but simply to make
us faithful and generous?
Oh, it's such a bomb.
Caleb Agee (14:02):
Yeah, Um that bar.
Brandon Welch (14:04):
Yeah, it's like if we are doing that, all
fulfillment happens and goodwork naturally flows.
So I'll get off the soapbox fora second.
That's philosophical stuff, but, man, that matters.
And if you're sitting heregoing, I've thrown money at this
corner and this corner and thiscorner.
Until somebody doesn't believetheir job is to do these things
(14:28):
for you, it won't be, and that'swhat you actually need.
You need somebody who will slowdown and get that for you.
If they think their job is tobe the ad person, then that's
what you've hired.
Caleb Agee (14:36):
Yeah, empathy will show up on two sides, right.
They'll feel for you and youwill feel them, understanding
your emotions, understanding howyou feel.
But then, on the back end ofthis, when they go to create any
sort of marketing materials foryou, it's going to show up in
them having to feel what yourcustomer is feeling.
Brandon Welch (15:00):
Yes, we tell our people don't just get obsessed
with your customer, Get obsessedwith your customer's customer.
And that is the thing that hasto be true behind every
effective ad person right.
Like productive, effective,like true champion that's going
(15:22):
to grow your company.
Caleb Agee (15:23):
Yeah, the ad that will win every single time is
the one that is empathetic andnot clever when it actually
speaks to the heart, thefeelings of another human, the
human that is your customer,that will always win over the
prettiest sounding ad, thecoolest looking ad, the most
clever and unique ad, those willget attention Even the more
(15:45):
scroll stopping ads.
Yeah, they'll get attention,but they won't get a business
change.
They won't take an actionbecause you didn't convince them
and you didn't connect withthem.
Brandon Welch (15:56):
And that's because to take somebody where
you want them to go, you have tofirst meet them where they are,
and that is empathy.
When you can understand wherethey are, you got all the
permission, all the credibility,all the trust, and it happens
in a microsecond.
And so if your marketer is notdoing that for you, how in the
world are they going to do thatfor your customer?
That's right.
So you're looking for peoplewho are digging in, asking more
(16:16):
things like what did she need tohear?
Oh well, why did she say that?
Or why do you think that'shappening?
Or what else do you think couldbe going on, Like they're
asking these questions aroundthe questions.
That's demonstrating themwanting to understand.
Caleb Agee (16:31):
And when they pair this curiosity and empathy, it's
a killer combo because they'llalso dig in and say, okay, tell
me about your customer.
Like, tell me about your lastfive customers.
What did they all have incommon?
Yeah, what do they like?
What do they do in their freetime?
What kind of all have in common?
Yeah, what do they?
What do they like?
What do they, um, what do theydo in their free time?
What kind of cars are in theirdriveway?
What kind of house was it?
What you can get?
(16:53):
Very carefully, they will startdigging into exactly
understanding who you're talkingto.
And when you do that, add copychanges and everything changes.
Brandon Welch (17:03):
I think, as consultants, they're also asking
like what's a home run for you?
Yes, like if you could changeanything about your business
right now, what would it be?
Caleb Agee (17:10):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (17:12):
And, by the way, that's a lot different.
If you could change anythingabout your advertising right now
, what would it be?
And nobody's sitting aroundgoing oh, I wish I could change
this about my advertising.
It's about their business, it'sabout the life and the
experience that they have.
These are the partners you want, my friends.
Caleb Agee (17:25):
Yeah, we ask questions like that.
We ask them in different waysbecause we're curious and we ask
it with different words, not asa tactic, by the way?
No, not as a tactic justbecause we want to know, and
people very often, even whenthey're our clients, will say
hey, at the end of this year,everything's you know in life
and business is exactly like youwanted it to be.
(17:47):
What happened to make that true?
And they're like well, thisdoesn't have to do with
marketing.
We're like great, can't wait.
Tell me about it, and it'sreally interesting, because they
almost feel like they don'thave permission to say it in
their marketing meeting andwe're like, no, no, no no, no,
no, it's like well, I really gotto deal with this culture issue
.
Oh, tell me more, or I'd liketo hunt and fish more.
(18:07):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (18:09):
Or yeah, I'd like to buy five rental houses.
Caleb Agee (18:11):
Yep.
Brandon Welch (18:12):
Or I'd like to get debt free.
Yes, like those things are hugefor us, yep, and it might
directly impact either theorigin story we talk about or
the talk or the analogies we usein their ads.
There's this mirror um umneuron mirroring thing you can
do somehow when you talk aboutstuff, the universe brings stuff
(18:33):
to you right when you put itout there.
So it informs a lot of theactual work later.
But at the, at the core level,you you are building trust if
you're the media person and youare just I hate this and I'm
sorry if you're a very awesome,well-meaning sales rep or, sorry
, sales manager for a mediacompany.
(18:55):
But sometimes you got to stoplike giving these guys five and
ten bullet points of just like,go get all the answers to these
questions, run back to thestation so we can build a
proposal that just says thatit's like, that doesn't work,
that's fake.
Yeah, you know, that's that'slike, that's like the knockoff
version of Dale Carnegie, right,these are tactics.
These are the creepy thingsthat will touch their arm a
(19:16):
little bit, right?
This is that is that ismanufactured and manipulative.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about give yourselfroom to breathe, make your goal
to have one quality appointmentper day instead of knocking on
40 doors.
Caleb Agee (19:30):
Yep, that's it.
Yeah, all right, that'scuriosity and empathy.
And third is business savvy.
Now this is what separates themarketers from what I would call
consultants.
The first two actually do pullthe.
I think they separate the twoas well.
But, man, when somebody canstep into your business and talk
(19:51):
about business, that's a gamechanger.
A marketer who talks aboutbusiness, yeah.
Brandon Welch (19:59):
Some things that would just be.
I think, man, it would beimpossible for me to do the job
that we do for our clients if Idon't have immediate knowledge
of what their average customeris worth to them, immediate
knowledge of what their profitmargins are.
Because how in the world am Igoing to set goals inside
(20:20):
dashboards and lead costs?
Uh, I need to know what theirappointment set ratios are,
their close ratios are theirfollowup ratios, their, um,
their cancellation rates.
I need to know.
Caleb Agee (20:32):
Their major services , profit centers.
Yes, we've got to dig into allof these different.
Where's the money come from?
How much weight does each youknow segment have?
A lot of times, business owners, they're inside the box and
they need somebody from theoutside to ask them these
questions, to show them exactlywhat's going on.
Brandon Welch (20:53):
Their CFO would do it for them.
But their CFO does not do it ina fun way.
Usually the CFO is deliveringafter the fact.
You know bad news, right,You're going.
What would you like it to beLike?
Um we talk a lot about, hey, areyou?
Are you holding a 35 margin,like if you're a $10 million or
(21:13):
you know better service company?
You ought to at least be ableto get a 35,.
You know, to the bottom line.
Sorry, gross margin is not thebottom line, but gross sales
margin on minus cost of goodssold and all that stuff.
So it's not that this can be anintangible, but there's some
people that are just going to bereally nerdy and really, really
(21:34):
good at this stuff.
They don't need to be a financemajor or anything like that,
but they need to understand thebuilding blocks of how you get
from um you know just doing busywork to being profitable and
they need to know what thatcosts you to operate that and
they need to know all thefactors at play that could be
against maybe, their campaignworking.
Because very often here, likewe're, like, you don't have a
(21:57):
lead problem, you have a leadconversion problem, and we've
got 50 other examples ofsomebody who's converting
appointments at a you know 40%better rate than you are, and we
just need to coach you on somesales a little bit, or, or, or
coach you on some scripting foryour customer service people.
Yeah, and that's a marketer, orthat's actually a consultant,
(22:19):
that is.
That is somebody who isequipped to grow your business.
Caleb Agee (22:22):
Yeah, and I think this business-savvy person will.
In our world we call itstrategy, where we say what's
the business objective they'regoing to take.
They're not going to just say,well, I'm a web developer, you
need website.
You know what I'm saying.
They're going to understand,even if they're just a I'll put
(22:44):
this in quotes just a webdeveloper.
If that's all they do, they'rea specialist.
In some way.
They should connect yourwebsite to some sort of business
objective you hope to achieveDefinitely.
And if they can't or don't orare unwilling to, all you're
getting is the rest of it.
You're getting message andmedia, but with no strategy at
the top.
You know what I'm saying.
(23:04):
And so we want to make sure wego all the way back to strategy
and this person, when they'rebusiness savvy, they're going to
start with now, what do youneed your website to do?
What do you need this campaignto do?
What do you need on a holisticlevel?
What do you need your businessto do on a holistic level?
What do you need your businessto do?
And then they will walk downtoward empathy and curiosity and
(23:25):
say, well, now who's thecustomer we have to talk to to
make those things happen?
And then they'll finally in themedia section.
This is the danger.
Those people are going to bebeasts at media.
That's why they're, that's whythey're walking in the doors.
They're the best media buyer inthe world and they're confident
in that, in that.
But they have to connect thosefirst two pieces and this is
(23:48):
where marketing gets off.
Most often is because they'rerock star web web developers,
they're rock star videographersand or designers or whatever
that's what you think, that youthink that's what it takes to
get to success yes and it's notyou're going to have a pretty or
funny product, but it is notgoing to translate into
long-term growth for yourbusiness.
Brandon Welch (24:08):
Yep, I go back to a real quick story.
Remember Kmart?
Remember that place?
Yes, At the end they were likecircling the drain and they
hired some big ad agency to makethem like a viral ad, and boy
was it viral.
Do you remember the ship mypants?
Ship my pants.
Caleb Agee (24:24):
Yes, ads, yeah, and they were like Enunciate, real
clearly.
Brandon Welch (24:27):
Ship my pants.
And they were like, oh I, Ishipped my bed and I shipped my.
You know it was hilarious, butof my like you know, young
advertising career, I was like Iwant to write ads like that
because they're funny.
And then Kmart was.
They were in the ground.
Like two years later they weredead.
They were completely shut down.
Yeah, and it's like.
(24:47):
Here's what they needed to havehappen.
They did not need to spend $50million on some genius ad idea.
They needed to find somebodywho would say your store just
sucks, man, Like.
You just suck, yeah, Like.
Caleb Agee (25:00):
Well, if you think about the business objective on
the ad campaign, it was don'tcome to our store, yeah.
Oh yeah, it was.
Ship it to my house.
Don't come to my store, yeah.
Brandon Welch (25:10):
And then you, when you do actually go to those
stores, the lights areflickering and their shelves are
half cleared out but here's theproblem grade a commercial
space is really high for, asthat's a, it's a lot to pay for
warehouse space, yes, like youcan go set up an e-commerce
store for about a third of therent.
That's right In the industrialpart of town.
So that's a big, big example.
Just saying that because somepeople may remember that
(25:34):
campaign.
But you don't just want toentertain people.
It's going to be fun.
You're going to high five andyou're getting some likes and
comments.
And is it going to be fun?
You're going to high five andyou're getting some likes and
comments.
And, you know, is it going tobe good for for news?
Yes, but it is not going to bethe the long term partnership or
the long term traction to growyour business into something
bigger.
So James Clear said if you don'tknow the difference between
(26:00):
principles and tactics, you'llalways be chasing somebody
else's playbook.
Principles are the things we'retalking about.
You can only find things thatwrap around principles when you
are curious and empathetic andyou have some business savvy.
Tactics is like make me a funnyad.
Any of us could write a funnyad.
Caleb Agee (26:22):
Tips and tricks will only get you so far.
That's right, and I think youas a marketer, as a Maven Method
type of marketer, you are goingto really want to become this
kind of marketer that we'retalking about.
I want you to challengeyourself to be more curious Next
(26:42):
time you're in a meeting, forceyourself to ask more questions,
force yourself to ask why dothey feel this way about this
thing?
And I'd encourage you just toplug into things that will make
you more business savvy, even ifit's outside your industry,
even if it's outside of yourworld.
We're challenging our team,even here every day, to grow in
(27:04):
their business savvy, becausethat's what separates the
marketers from the truemarketers who can grow
businesses.
Brandon Welch (27:12):
And this was not intended to say, oh, let's do
this, because this is what we do.
There are really goodprofessionals out there.
There are people who haveexited themselves from being
button clickers and ads andthey've been like you know what?
What I really want to do isgrow small businesses.
We share that mission.
That's why we're here, that'swhy we show up.
That is why we get so dadgumexcited about your business,
(27:37):
whether it's, you know, juststarting or it's a hundred
million dollar business.
We, just we, we love that.
Um, that is the thing drivingthis podcast.
Uh, that's why we write booksand give them away for next to
nothing and we, you know, makenotes and spend hours and hours
of our time putting thistogether.
That's why we do, um, carve outtime for masterminds and the
(27:58):
stuff we have coming to help yoube a better marketer.
I couldn't be more excitedabout, because that is our
mission.
We talked about this yesterdaywith our team.
It is our mission to affect thelives of tens of thousands of
entrepreneurs.
We want you to be better, wewant you to be more confident,
we want you to be more clear,because when that happens, you
affect the world in a better way.
Your little business is morethan your metrics.
(28:18):
It's more than your livelihood.
It's more than your livelihood.
It's more than your people'sgrowth.
It is like, literally, thebeacon of hope and the world
we're going into.
Big business is not going tochange the world in a positive
way.
Big business is always askinghow to do it faster, cheaper and
with less people.
You are a small business ifyou're listening to this podcast
(28:38):
and you are finding out a wayto do it with people, because
that is who you live in, withand around and, just from the
bottom of my heart, that is whywe're here and thank you for
being here.
Before you throw money atanother shiny object, just ask
is the person who's going tohelp you spend this money
(28:58):
curious, empathetic, and arethey business savvy?
And if they're not, send themto the Maverick Marketing
Podcast, because we'll be backhere every Monday answering your
real-life marketing questionswith curiosity, empathy and a
reasonable amount of businesssavvy.
Hope you guys have a great week.
Oh, because marketers who can'tteach you why holy smokes Are
(29:19):
just a fancy lie.
Now you can have a great week.
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, brandon Welch,and I'm joined by Caleb, Check
out our fancy stop sign, Agee.
You look good holding that wewent to Home Depot and we bought
that thing and held it up,didn't?
Caleb Agee (00:18):
we.
Yes, yeah, it wasn't Canvamagic.
Brandon Welch (00:22):
We're talking about our new thumbnail, and a
couple weeks ago we challengedy'all to help us make our
thumbnails look better, and wegot some really good ideas.
I think Silas wins the prize,yes.
And his ideas led us to whatyou see on the little thing you
just clicked on if you were onYouTube.
Caleb Agee (00:41):
It goes away too fast.
As soon as you click on it, itloads up Cheers to.
Brandon Welch (00:46):
Silas, thank you.
He gets a membership to theMastermind.
What is that?
Why would he want?
Caleb Agee (00:55):
The Mastermind, the Maven Marketing Mastermind is
really.
It's kind of like this podcast,but on a deeper level.
Brandon Welch (01:03):
It's a two-way conversation.
Caleb Agee (01:04):
Yeah, it's your way really to to be able to actually
ask us live questions, causeI'm sure you have questions as
you listen to this.
You're saying but what abouthey Caleb?
What about that Brandon?
What about?
And um, the podcast reallygives you access to be on a call
, a group call, with othermarketers and small business
leaders, and, um, we get toanswer questions live.
(01:24):
People turn them in and, in agroup setting, we all get to
give feedback.
Brandon Welch (01:28):
We have community we have.
We even take some stuff for ourteam and and like there's some,
there's some stuff that'sgetting some pretty high level
like editing work, and just likeyour little fractional version
of this big awesome marketingteam that maybe you maybe you
have one, maybe you just wantsome more, maybe you have never
had one, maybe you are trying tobuild one and you just want
(01:49):
somebody beside you doing it.
That's the Maven MarketingMastermind.
You can join that atmavenmethodtrainingcom.
We're having a blast.
We're already seeing somebusinesses grow and just like
launch some things that theywouldn't have launched probably,
if your name's not Silas, youshould join that.
Caleb Agee (02:05):
Yeah, silas will be there free of charge because he
helped us.
Brandon Welch (02:11):
Yes, he will be there, and he will not remain,
silas, oh, okay.
Caleb Agee (02:14):
Just see what I did there.
I see it.
Yeah, let's get to it.
Brandon Welch (02:16):
So if you've ever tried to grow something or
you've been presented with amarketing idea or an advertising
sales pitch, whether yourealize it or not, you are about
to choose a marketer.
You're about to choose somebodyto help you grow your thing,
and the myths we talk about inthe book is that there's this
(02:36):
kind of assumption that we justneed to get our name out there,
people just need to know aboutit and then they'll buy it.
We talk about some other mythsthat are the branding myth.
Brand is a thing, but the waypeople talk about branding is
very often like not.
Caleb Agee (02:51):
Misconstrued.
Brandon Welch (02:52):
Yeah, it's missing traction.
Caleb Agee (02:54):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:56):
And then there's just a lot of things you're
about to hitch your wagon to,and most of the time when people
end up in our conference room,they're immensely frustrated
that something is not workingfor them.
They've probably wasted tens ofthousands of dollars and
they're just going, like I heard.
You guys are the ones thatmight tell me the truth about
(03:17):
this, and we're glad that that'sour reputation, but we wish it
didn't have to be injuxtaposition to the world.
So this episode is first andforemost for you if you are
considering either hiring maybean agency, or maybe it's an
actual employee or just anybodywho has Just a contractor that
might even do a one-off thing.
Yes, yes, good people, Everybodyhas good intentions and we're
(03:40):
not throwing rocks at our peersand our friends.
But what happens all too oftenin the business marketing
equation is that the artist orthe website builder or the ad
salesperson thinks their job isto do that thing and their job
is not that.
That is a byproduct.
Their job is to grow yourbusiness.
Their job is to make you moresuccessful.
And over the years, frankly,just hiring people ourselves and
(04:11):
then kind of like aligning withcertain peers in our industry
Like there are a lot of otheragencies we respect and have
wonderful relationships withWe've just kind of like gone.
Hey, we don't have to be yoursolution.
Actually, most of the time wearen't the ones that should
probably move this plan forward,because we have limited people
we can help.
But we say if you're going tofind a marketer, there are a few
(04:33):
things that should go withoutsaying.
They should be kind of good atthe thing.
If it's a Google person, theyought to know Google.
But also, you want these threeingredients and so we're going
to talk about that.
And then, inversely, if you areone of our media partner friends
and you want to stand out asone of the ones.
There's, like I would say, outof 50 media reps in any given
town, there's one that is like arock star.
(04:54):
They are a consultant, theywear this.
I mean no offense to any of theother ones.
I've lived in that world.
I love it.
These are some of our bestfriends to this day.
But the truth is that industrydoesn't automatically require
you to do this and they oftendon't reward it, so you kind of
have to have your own fire forthe things we're about to talk
(05:16):
about.
Yeah, and I would just say, ifyou want to be the one that is
like, instead of having to goprospect for business, people
are hunting you down to say, hey, will you do my stuff?
I promise these things will beyour friends.
So, without further ado, we'regoing to talk about the three
ingredients.
You want to just say it?
Caleb Agee (05:32):
Yeah, let's say it the three ingredients you want
to look for in a marketer arecuriosity, empathy and business
savvy.
So I'll say that one more timecuriosity, empathy and business
savvy.
Brandon Welch (05:45):
That doesn't sound like google.
That doesn't sound like, uh,award-winning copywriter.
That doesn't sound like, youknow, media buyer.
Yeah, what does that have to dowith my business, caleb?
Caleb Agee (05:54):
yeah, we're gonna.
Well, let me tell you, yeah,albert einstein says, I have no
special talents, I am onlypassionately curious.
Brandon Welch (06:03):
I think of the old Apple ads and how they just
highlighted these monumentalpeople.
Einstein was one of them.
Musicians are like this andit's like the people that wake
up.
Just I want to know more aboutthat.
Turns out they learn more aboutthat.
Yep, and right behind every adcampaign that didn't quite hit
(06:26):
the mark is somebody who justdidn't ask enough questions.
That's right.
It's never missed technology.
It's never probably lack ofcreativity.
It's always lack of alignment.
And how do you get aligned?
And how do you get aligned?
How does somebody who has themission or the job of growing
(06:48):
your company?
How do they know if they're notasking enough questions?
That's right.
Caleb Agee (06:51):
Yeah, and it seems you know curiosity.
You'll feel it very early whenyou sit down and meet with this
person.
If you're interviewing them orthey're pitching you God forbid
you will know pretty quickly ifthey're curious.
It'll be evident.
But obviously curiosity showsup most in questions and it's
(07:13):
not just leading questions.
Curiosity is genuine, it's real, it actually wants to know and
you can sense that really reallyquickly in any person.
That I think you can tell whenyou're in a line of questioning
like a lawyer, and you'resitting on the bench and you
feel like they're leading youDon't you want this and you're
(07:34):
like uh-huh, uh-huh.
Brandon Welch (07:35):
And you can see that smell that's patting you on
the head.
Caleb Agee (07:38):
Yeah, you're like uh-huh, wouldn't you like this?
Yes, I would Thank you, butcuriosity is genuine and real
and it's asking questions thathave, I think, nothing to do
with what that person is sellingme or doing.
It will have something to dowith it, but it's okay if it
deviates, because they aregenuinely curious, in this case,
(08:01):
about your business.
Brandon Welch (08:02):
Yeah, and that's where it's going to go.
It's a creepy thing to say, butit's almost like dating.
It's like you are.
I don't know anything aboutthat.
I did it one time and I did areally good job.
But it's like when you'regetting to know anybody, you
just everything's on the table.
Tell me more about that right.
And so we're not talking aboutlight conversation, we're not
(08:25):
talking about, you know,somebody who's good at being
bubbly and all of that.
Those are good skills to have.
Personally, and, by the way, Iwant to say this any amount of
training in a, in a media salesrole, somebody who's that's
their job and they've, they workfor some sort of company with
any amount of structure has gonethrough some sort of corporate
training and what's very oftencalled is the client needs
(08:46):
analysis.
Oh, cna, yeah, cna, bring it on.
You know what?
I love you, my CNA people,because at least we're doing
that step.
But very often it's just askingquestions so that they can run
right back and plug theirproduct in as the answer yes.
So we're not talking about that.
We're talking about somebodywho here's what it is If they
take interest in how you startedthis thing or why you started
(09:10):
this thing or why you do it acertain way, and not just to say
, oh well, we should put that inan ad.
No, Tell me more about that.
Caleb Agee (09:19):
Yeah, they'll start saying things like tell me more.
I think they'll catch thoselittle pain points that you have
that you'll maybe breeze overor you'll kind of say in passing
, but a truly curious personwill sense that and see that as
a true thing that you have toresolve or solve and they'll ask
you more about it.
(09:39):
They'll dig deeper, they'llfind those pain points and
they'll want to understand, well, what's causing that, what's
really causing that, and thething behind the thing.
Brandon Welch (09:48):
And you will sense that as soon as it happens
, and here's why that matters.
Roy Williams said writing goodads is easy when you have
something to say, and whatthey're doing now is they are
allowing themselves the positionof being your ad writer.
Even if they're not the oneactually writing the copy,
(10:10):
they're the consultant that'sgoing taking the things out of
your heart that are making yourcompany successful, whether you
realize it or not, and they'reable to read them back to you in
a way that you don't knowbecause it's so proprietary,
it's part of your DNA.
And when they can do that as athird party who is naturally
curious, naturally likeunreasonably excited about your
(10:33):
business, then they havepermission to go be your agent
for the world, versus goingthrough the motions to try to
bring you back a package orsomething to buy yes, the
motions to try to bring you backa package or something to buy,
yes.
Caleb Agee (10:47):
Or or checking the box to fill out a canned ad
script that won't move theneedle or connect with a person
yeah.
Brandon Welch (10:55):
And and that's, and I think this person does it
with a posture of I don't knowif I'm a good fit for you.
Caleb Agee (10:59):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (11:00):
But I would love to learn more about you, like,
if you feel any amount of that,you're on the right place.
Caleb Agee (11:05):
It'll show up.
You'll see them uncoveringunexpected things, things you
didn't even realize maybe weregetting in your way sometimes,
and they'll really actually beable to get to the heart of a
person.
Because it'll show up.
That curiosity shows up inwriting big time.
Brandon Welch (11:22):
And to my media, people who are listening like
find their origin story In theorigin story which, by the way,
we talk about this in the book.
Guys, this could take hours.
This probably does take hours,should take hours If you get
good at it.
Not that you want to rush it,but you can start learning the
(11:42):
questions that work for you.
But every entrepreneur willgive you a surface-level answer
oh, I'm the best, I just want tobe the best quality, I want to
be the.
Maybe sometimes I want to bethe biggest, or we want to have
100% customer satisfaction.
They're just saying things thatsound good because they think
that's what they should say.
What you really want is theperson that will pull the story
(12:05):
out of you that was not going tocome out any other way until
they politely grilled you andgave you the gift of their
curiosity.
Caleb Agee (12:14):
Yep, so that's what curiosity looks like, and we
really want to find people whotruly have that curiosity.
In that first interview, inthat first meeting, yeah, you'll
know it.
And in that first interview, inthat first meeting, you'll know
it right away.
But you'll know that they'llhave enough of that curiosity to
not just be a good marketer foryou but also to pull off the
(12:34):
kind of writing that you need.
They will be a filter.
Their curiosity will lead themto ask deeper questions.
Brandon Welch (12:43):
They won't just take you at face value, and
they'll go further.
Roosevelt said it best Peopledon't care how much you know
until they, and they'll gofurther.
Roosevelt said it best.
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care, like you know thatfeeling.
And then there's the why am Igoing blank on her name?
Caleb Agee (12:57):
People don't, will never remember what you said,
but they'll always remember howyou made them feel right.
Brandon Welch (13:01):
I can't remember the name.
Caleb Agee (13:01):
Goodness, somebody drop it in the comments right
now.
Brandon Welch (13:04):
Catch us on the lack of our wisdom there.
We're dropping bombs withoutcredit, given.
That's right.
That leads us right into that'sempathy, though right Empathy,
and so curiosity and empathy arelike they're a paired thing.
I think to have genuinecuriosity, you have to be
empathetic, and empathetic islike I want to know how you feel
(13:24):
, because if I know how you feel, I can make decisions on your
behalf or I can makerecommendations on your behalf.
Empathy also says I'm second,I'm backseat, let me just see
what you're up against.
(13:48):
I just want to help you and ifthat leads to know my product,
will also be a good part forthat, or maybe maybe we part, as
I just helped you.
Yeah, Um um.
We're talking about this quoteyesterday Um, what if our work
was never intended to make ussuccessful, but simply to make
us faithful and generous?
Oh, it's such a bomb.
Caleb Agee (14:02):
Yeah, Um that bar.
Brandon Welch (14:04):
Yeah, it's like if we are doing that, all
fulfillment happens and goodwork naturally flows.
So I'll get off the soapbox fora second.
That's philosophical stuff, but, man, that matters.
And if you're sitting heregoing, I've thrown money at this
corner and this corner and thiscorner.
Until somebody doesn't believetheir job is to do these things
(14:28):
for you, it won't be, and that'swhat you actually need.
You need somebody who will slowdown and get that for you.
If they think their job is tobe the ad person, then that's
what you've hired.
Caleb Agee (14:36):
Yeah, empathy will show up on two sides, right.
They'll feel for you and youwill feel them, understanding
your emotions, understanding howyou feel.
But then, on the back end ofthis, when they go to create any
sort of marketing materials foryou, it's going to show up in
them having to feel what yourcustomer is feeling.
Brandon Welch (15:00):
Yes, we tell our people don't just get obsessed
with your customer, Get obsessedwith your customer's customer.
And that is the thing that hasto be true behind every
effective ad person right.
Like productive, effective,like true champion that's going
(15:22):
to grow your company.
Caleb Agee (15:23):
Yeah, the ad that will win every single time is
the one that is empathetic andnot clever when it actually
speaks to the heart, thefeelings of another human, the
human that is your customer,that will always win over the
prettiest sounding ad, thecoolest looking ad, the most
clever and unique ad, those willget attention Even the more
(15:45):
scroll stopping ads.
Yeah, they'll get attention,but they won't get a business
change.
They won't take an actionbecause you didn't convince them
and you didn't connect withthem.
Brandon Welch (15:56):
And that's because to take somebody where
you want them to go, you have tofirst meet them where they are,
and that is empathy.
When you can understand wherethey are, you got all the
permission, all the credibility,all the trust, and it happens
in a microsecond.
And so if your marketer is notdoing that for you, how in the
world are they going to do thatfor your customer?
That's right.
So you're looking for peoplewho are digging in, asking more
(16:16):
things like what did she need tohear?
Oh well, why did she say that?
Or why do you think that'shappening?
Or what else do you think couldbe going on, Like they're
asking these questions aroundthe questions.
That's demonstrating themwanting to understand.
Caleb Agee (16:31):
And when they pair this curiosity and empathy, it's
a killer combo because they'llalso dig in and say, okay, tell
me about your customer.
Like, tell me about your lastfive customers.
What did they all have incommon?
Yeah, what do they like?
What do they do in their freetime?
What kind of all have in common?
Yeah, what do they?
What do they like?
What do they, um, what do theydo in their free time?
What kind of cars are in theirdriveway?
What kind of house was it?
What you can get?
(16:53):
Very carefully, they will startdigging into exactly
understanding who you're talkingto.
And when you do that, add copychanges and everything changes.
Brandon Welch (17:03):
I think, as consultants, they're also asking
like what's a home run for you?
Yes, like if you could changeanything about your business
right now, what would it be?
Caleb Agee (17:10):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (17:12):
And, by the way, that's a lot different.
If you could change anythingabout your advertising right now
, what would it be?
And nobody's sitting aroundgoing oh, I wish I could change
this about my advertising.
It's about their business, it'sabout the life and the
experience that they have.
These are the partners you want, my friends.
Caleb Agee (17:25):
Yeah, we ask questions like that.
We ask them in different waysbecause we're curious and we ask
it with different words, not asa tactic, by the way?
No, not as a tactic justbecause we want to know, and
people very often, even whenthey're our clients, will say
hey, at the end of this year,everything's you know in life
and business is exactly like youwanted it to be.
(17:47):
What happened to make that true?
And they're like well, thisdoesn't have to do with
marketing.
We're like great, can't wait.
Tell me about it, and it'sreally interesting, because they
almost feel like they don'thave permission to say it in
their marketing meeting andwe're like, no, no, no no, no,
no, it's like well, I really gotto deal with this culture issue
.
Oh, tell me more, or I'd liketo hunt and fish more.
(18:07):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (18:09):
Or yeah, I'd like to buy five rental houses.
Caleb Agee (18:11):
Yep.
Brandon Welch (18:12):
Or I'd like to get debt free.
Yes, like those things are hugefor us, yep, and it might
directly impact either theorigin story we talk about or
the talk or the analogies we usein their ads.
There's this mirror um umneuron mirroring thing you can
do somehow when you talk aboutstuff, the universe brings stuff
(18:33):
to you right when you put itout there.
So it informs a lot of theactual work later.
But at the, at the core level,you you are building trust if
you're the media person and youare just I hate this and I'm
sorry if you're a very awesome,well-meaning sales rep or, sorry
, sales manager for a mediacompany.
(18:55):
But sometimes you got to stoplike giving these guys five and
ten bullet points of just like,go get all the answers to these
questions, run back to thestation so we can build a
proposal that just says thatit's like, that doesn't work,
that's fake.
Yeah, you know, that's that'slike, that's like the knockoff
version of Dale Carnegie, right,these are tactics.
These are the creepy thingsthat will touch their arm a
(19:16):
little bit, right?
This is that is that ismanufactured and manipulative.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about give yourselfroom to breathe, make your goal
to have one quality appointmentper day instead of knocking on
40 doors.
Caleb Agee (19:30):
Yep, that's it.
Yeah, all right, that'scuriosity and empathy.
And third is business savvy.
Now this is what separates themarketers from what I would call
consultants.
The first two actually do pullthe.
I think they separate the twoas well.
But, man, when somebody canstep into your business and talk
(19:51):
about business, that's a gamechanger.
A marketer who talks aboutbusiness, yeah.
Brandon Welch (19:59):
Some things that would just be.
I think, man, it would beimpossible for me to do the job
that we do for our clients if Idon't have immediate knowledge
of what their average customeris worth to them, immediate
knowledge of what their profitmargins are.
Because how in the world am Igoing to set goals inside
(20:20):
dashboards and lead costs?
Uh, I need to know what theirappointment set ratios are,
their close ratios are theirfollowup ratios, their, um,
their cancellation rates.
I need to know.
Caleb Agee (20:32):
Their major services , profit centers.
Yes, we've got to dig into allof these different.
Where's the money come from?
How much weight does each youknow segment have?
A lot of times, business owners, they're inside the box and
they need somebody from theoutside to ask them these
questions, to show them exactlywhat's going on.
Brandon Welch (20:53):
Their CFO would do it for them.
But their CFO does not do it ina fun way.
Usually the CFO is deliveringafter the fact.
You know bad news, right,You're going.
What would you like it to beLike?
Um we talk a lot about, hey, areyou?
Are you holding a 35 margin,like if you're a $10 million or
(21:13):
you know better service company?
You ought to at least be ableto get a 35,.
You know, to the bottom line.
Sorry, gross margin is not thebottom line, but gross sales
margin on minus cost of goodssold and all that stuff.
So it's not that this can be anintangible, but there's some
people that are just going to bereally nerdy and really, really
(21:34):
good at this stuff.
They don't need to be a financemajor or anything like that,
but they need to understand thebuilding blocks of how you get
from um you know just doing busywork to being profitable and
they need to know what thatcosts you to operate that and
they need to know all thefactors at play that could be
against maybe, their campaignworking.
Because very often here, likewe're, like, you don't have a
(21:57):
lead problem, you have a leadconversion problem, and we've
got 50 other examples ofsomebody who's converting
appointments at a you know 40%better rate than you are, and we
just need to coach you on somesales a little bit, or, or, or
coach you on some scripting foryour customer service people.
Yeah, and that's a marketer, orthat's actually a consultant,
(22:19):
that is.
That is somebody who isequipped to grow your business.
Caleb Agee (22:22):
Yeah, and I think this business-savvy person will.
In our world we call itstrategy, where we say what's
the business objective they'regoing to take.
They're not going to just say,well, I'm a web developer, you
need website.
You know what I'm saying.
They're going to understand,even if they're just a I'll put
(22:44):
this in quotes just a webdeveloper.
If that's all they do, they'rea specialist.
In some way.
They should connect yourwebsite to some sort of business
objective you hope to achieveDefinitely.
And if they can't or don't orare unwilling to, all you're
getting is the rest of it.
You're getting message andmedia, but with no strategy at
the top.
You know what I'm saying.
(23:04):
And so we want to make sure wego all the way back to strategy
and this person, when they'rebusiness savvy, they're going to
start with now, what do youneed your website to do?
What do you need this campaignto do?
What do you need on a holisticlevel?
What do you need your businessto do on a holistic level?
What do you need your businessto do?
And then they will walk downtoward empathy and curiosity and
(23:25):
say, well, now who's thecustomer we have to talk to to
make those things happen?
And then they'll finally in themedia section.
This is the danger.
Those people are going to bebeasts at media.
That's why they're, that's whythey're walking in the doors.
They're the best media buyer inthe world and they're confident
in that, in that.
But they have to connect thosefirst two pieces and this is
(23:48):
where marketing gets off.
Most often is because they'rerock star web web developers,
they're rock star videographersand or designers or whatever
that's what you think, that youthink that's what it takes to
get to success yes and it's notyou're going to have a pretty or
funny product, but it is notgoing to translate into
long-term growth for yourbusiness.
Brandon Welch (24:08):
Yep, I go back to a real quick story.
Remember Kmart?
Remember that place?
Yes, At the end they were likecircling the drain and they
hired some big ad agency to makethem like a viral ad, and boy
was it viral.
Do you remember the ship mypants?
Ship my pants.
Caleb Agee (24:24):
Yes, ads, yeah, and they were like Enunciate, real
clearly.
Brandon Welch (24:27):
Ship my pants.
And they were like, oh I, Ishipped my bed and I shipped my.
You know it was hilarious, butof my like you know, young
advertising career, I was like Iwant to write ads like that
because they're funny.
And then Kmart was.
They were in the ground.
Like two years later they weredead.
They were completely shut down.
Yeah, and it's like.
(24:47):
Here's what they needed to havehappen.
They did not need to spend $50million on some genius ad idea.
They needed to find somebodywho would say your store just
sucks, man, Like.
You just suck, yeah, Like.
Caleb Agee (25:00):
Well, if you think about the business objective on
the ad campaign, it was don'tcome to our store, yeah.
Oh yeah, it was.
Ship it to my house.
Don't come to my store, yeah.
Brandon Welch (25:10):
And then you, when you do actually go to those
stores, the lights areflickering and their shelves are
half cleared out but here's theproblem grade a commercial
space is really high for, asthat's a, it's a lot to pay for
warehouse space, yes, like youcan go set up an e-commerce
store for about a third of therent.
That's right In the industrialpart of town.
So that's a big, big example.
Just saying that because somepeople may remember that
(25:34):
campaign.
But you don't just want toentertain people.
It's going to be fun.
You're going to high five andyou're getting some likes and
comments.
And is it going to be fun?
You're going to high five andyou're getting some likes and
comments.
And, you know, is it going tobe good for for news?
Yes, but it is not going to bethe the long term partnership or
the long term traction to growyour business into something
bigger.
So James Clear said if you don'tknow the difference between
(26:00):
principles and tactics, you'llalways be chasing somebody
else's playbook.
Principles are the things we'retalking about.
You can only find things thatwrap around principles when you
are curious and empathetic andyou have some business savvy.
Tactics is like make me a funnyad.
Any of us could write a funnyad.
Caleb Agee (26:22):
Tips and tricks will only get you so far.
That's right, and I think youas a marketer, as a Maven Method
type of marketer, you are goingto really want to become this
kind of marketer that we'retalking about.
I want you to challengeyourself to be more curious Next
(26:42):
time you're in a meeting, forceyourself to ask more questions,
force yourself to ask why dothey feel this way about this
thing?
And I'd encourage you just toplug into things that will make
you more business savvy, even ifit's outside your industry,
even if it's outside of yourworld.
We're challenging our team,even here every day, to grow in
(27:04):
their business savvy, becausethat's what separates the
marketers from the truemarketers who can grow
businesses.
Brandon Welch (27:12):
And this was not intended to say, oh, let's do
this, because this is what we do.
There are really goodprofessionals out there.
There are people who haveexited themselves from being
button clickers and ads andthey've been like you know what?
What I really want to do isgrow small businesses.
We share that mission.
That's why we're here, that'swhy we show up.
That is why we get so dadgumexcited about your business,
(27:37):
whether it's, you know, juststarting or it's a hundred
million dollar business.
We, just we, we love that.
Um, that is the thing drivingthis podcast.
Uh, that's why we write booksand give them away for next to
nothing and we, you know, makenotes and spend hours and hours
of our time putting thistogether.
That's why we do, um, carve outtime for masterminds and the
(27:58):
stuff we have coming to help yoube a better marketer.
I couldn't be more excitedabout, because that is our
mission.
We talked about this yesterdaywith our team.
It is our mission to affect thelives of tens of thousands of
entrepreneurs.
We want you to be better, wewant you to be more confident,
we want you to be more clear,because when that happens, you
affect the world in a better way.
Your little business is morethan your metrics.
(28:18):
It's more than your livelihood.
It's more than your livelihood.
It's more than your people'sgrowth.
It is like, literally, thebeacon of hope and the world
we're going into.
Big business is not going tochange the world in a positive
way.
Big business is always askinghow to do it faster, cheaper and
with less people.
You are a small business ifyou're listening to this podcast
(28:38):
and you are finding out a wayto do it with people, because
that is who you live in, withand around and, just from the
bottom of my heart, that is whywe're here and thank you for
being here.
Before you throw money atanother shiny object, just ask
is the person who's going tohelp you spend this money
(28:58):
curious, empathetic, and arethey business savvy?
And if they're not, send themto the Maverick Marketing
Podcast, because we'll be backhere every Monday answering your
real-life marketing questionswith curiosity, empathy and a
reasonable amount of businesssavvy.
Hope you guys have a great week.
Oh, because marketers who can'tteach you why holy smokes Are
(29:19):
just a fancy lie.
Now you can have a great week.
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