May 12, 2025 • 47 mins
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Host: Brandon Welch
Co-Host: Caleb Agee
Executive Producer: Carter Breaux
Audio/Video Producer: Nate the Camera Guy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, Brandon Welch,and I'm joined by Caleb Suntan
Agee.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hit the beach last week with the kids.
He's got the beach.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Looks like SPF 30 treatment all over you.
Looks like I've been kissed bythe sun.
You have been kissed by the sun, this whole body, body.
That's how John been kissed bythe sun.
You have been kissed by the sun, this whole body, body.
That's how John Mayer would sayit.
Body, body, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I think that's a who's, that it's a family guy.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a family guy thing.
All right, I was actually youbetter be okay with it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was actually going with the singer.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
But body.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Baddies I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Seal, I don't know who knows.
Hey, this is the place where wehelp you eliminate waste in
advertising, grow your businessand achieve the big dream.
And we all know big dreams allstart at the search engine.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
right Wrong, but it does have a lot to do with it.
Right, that's where dreams aremade or broken.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, they're going to be broken.
I got to tell you, hey, SEO ischanging and we have.
We've been fielding questionsfor this and building strategies
for the last gosh year or two,but it's really, really hit the
road the last few months and,for whatever reason, peak
literally like May.
(01:17):
April and May of 2025 was thepeak of like.
I think everybody I encounteredwas like, how do you rank on
GPT?
And I'm seeing my competitorsand customers.
You know customers use it.
Competitors rank there.
Maybe you are, maybe you aren'tthere.
So how do we do that?
And we have a nine part answerfor you today and if you do even
(01:38):
a handful of these things, youare going to be miles ahead of
the game.
We don't need to sit here andbelabor the point that AI is
taking over.
Ai is rapid adoption, more thanany technology, like faster
than by 10 to 15 times than theaverage technology adoption
curve, If you think of, like,iPhones and good old-fashioned
(02:00):
Google.
This is happening in months,not years, and we have the
master.
Caleb has long been the SEOarchitect at Frank and Maven,
and so I'm going to throw thingsup and he's going to actually
bring some technical.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Knock him out of the park.
Knock him out of the park.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I'm going to toss up, he's going to knock it out of
the park, but today you're goingto leave with nine things you
can be doing to have a fightingchance and actually a huge
competitive advantage, because Ibet, if you are one of the
owner-operated companies we loveto serve, your competitors
probably aren't doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, and this whole world is new.
So we're going to open with acaveat of saying what we say
today will probably change insix months and it'll definitely
change in a year.
The basics of what we'retalking about, the principles
here, I think they will applylong term.
They're not going to go away.
We're not going on any likesuper basic nerdy piece that
(02:59):
will be outdated or outmoded,you know, in a very short time.
But the nuances of all of thesehow much one thing helps versus
another thing will shift andchange, just like we've seen
Google algorithms change overthe time.
It's all new and everybody'strying to get their legs about
them.
Fun thing the going names areGEO which stands for Generative
(03:22):
Engine Optimization.
So generative means an AI is agenerative engine, or I like AIO
, but it sounds like OldMacDonald has a farm.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Whatever you are EOing, we have an answer for it,
because here's why it doesn'tchange.
Here's why this podcast willactually be relevant in 10 years
from now.
You heard it here.
What is the big idea?
What has Google always beentrying to do?
Serve the searcher, serve thesearcher the answer to their
question.
(03:55):
They've always been trying tobe more human.
They've always been trying todeliver you the best answers, or
else you won't use that, you'lluse something else right.
Deliver you the best answers,or else you won't use that,
you'll use something else right.
And so all of the technicalstuff there's over 200 little
tiny parts of like a searchengine algorithm.
All of those were neverdesigned so that you could hack
(04:15):
them and like make some magicanswer to their invisible
problem.
It was all.
That was their best guess andthat was their best way to sort
out all the billions of piecesof data on the internet in a
ranking fashion that they had apretty good confidence they were
giving you the best result.
Well, the same underlyingprinciple is true for AI.
It's just way dadgum smarter.
(04:36):
It's just way smarter, wayfaster, and it's more
intelligent and able toregurgitate information in the
way we actually want to see it.
So it's kind of like SEO, asit's always been on steroids.
Yep.
And so the people that werereally good at SEO are probably
already miles ahead, but thereare some very specific things
(04:58):
that AI is not looking at asmuch that you can control,
frankly, faster and better thanyou could have on SEO.
And that's what gives you theadvantage, and that's what we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, let's talk about some stats on AI.
Real quick, to just drive thepoint home, I've got a stat.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Bring it on 79% of people have used generative AI
to find answers instead of atraditional search engine.
Generative AI, let's just beclear that's your GPTs, that's
your Geminis, that's your GoogleAI overviews.
Generative AI means it can takebig pieces of information and
(05:36):
then summarize its own versionof that.
It can make up things thatweren't previously written
because it has the code of humanlanguage.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, it's not necessarily direct, quoting you
right.
A Google search engine pulls upa snippet of your webpage,
typically, or a page from yourwebsite, and even in the meta
description it might highlight Idon't know if you remember
it'll highlight the word yousearched and show you.
Or, if it didn't have theperfect result, it'll say show
results that have to containthis word.
(06:07):
Yeah, you know, ai is not doingthat.
It's taking you at your wordand it's searching the whole
internet essentially for you.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's taking those three hours you would have spent
parsing articles and it's doingit for you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The first page of Google is 10-ish web page.
Actually, it's like an infinitescroll now, but it's taking all
10 of those pages, reading themfor you and summarizing for you
.
Hey, anybody, hate these lazykids, because this next one
you'll love 43% of Gen Z nowstart product discovery on
TikTok, youtube or AI chat tools, not Google.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'm actually going to take back that statement
because Gen Z is the least lazygeneration I've seen in, like
ever.
That's why Nate the camera guyis in here working with his nine
arms.
Gen Z says this is stupid.
I don't have time to waste onthis.
Yeah, they have a extremelyhigh filter for what is worth
their time and what is not worththeir time, and how they can
(07:03):
natively use technology theirtime and what is not worth their
time and how they can nativelyuse technology Like they were
born little inspector gadgetsand they can just, you know, go
go chat GPT and tell me thisbefore I have to waste weeks or
months or hours on a YouTubevideo learning it.
Yeah.
That's why, like, that's howthey start their product
discovery that's not one thingthey use.
That's like they don't evenreach for Google.
(07:24):
They go yeah, that's dad onething they use.
That's like they don't evenreach for Google.
They go that's dad's old, rustytool.
We're going straight to GPT.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Fun trick.
We did the road trip to Florida.
Said, hey, I've got kids.
One of them's a baby.
We need to stop every two tothree hours.
Give me great stops along theway Planned out our entire
itinerary.
Wow Chat GPT did.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And the way planned out our entire itinerary.
Wow, chat gpt did and it wasbrilliant cheat gpt for the win.
Yep, so hey, ai generatedanswers.
Uh, stat number three influencebuying decisions for 61 percent
of users who interact with them.
So, uh, they're taking it to thebank yep I want to say that the
the the most trusted form ofadvertising back in the days
when I kind of knew this dad offcuff was obviously referrals
(08:09):
from a friend.
It was like 90-somethingpercent of people did that.
Then there was like traditionalmedia, like newspapers, and
then search was just likeclosely behind that, but it
wasn't that high.
It was in the 40s or 50spercent.
People are trusting GPTinherently and quickly, which is
interesting because it can't bebought.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That is the key here.
At the moment, there are no adsinside of these GPTs, and so
you can't cheat the system.
You can't run paid AI ads toland at the top of these search
results.
They are agnostic, they look atthe internet as a whole, and
unless you apply theseprinciples, that we'll talk
about later.
You lose.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Somebody asked me the other day do you think this
will go the way of Google?
And I'm like man, I would bereally, really shocked if any AI
platform let ads into it,definitely on a paid version.
Yeah, I guess I could see thead-supported model becoming a
thing later.
Like your Quora's and yourReddits and stuff like that.
(09:13):
Those are being supported byads and at one point they were
almost all organic, so I can seethat happening.
So, like GPT takes over GoogleSpot and they, you know, you
could have a premium version,which we have right, but if
you're just any everyday person,you might be limited to the
amount of searches.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I don't think they dilute the search.
We're just speculating rightnow.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I don't think they dilute the search any more than
they just put.
Be extremely trusting of thetechnology and to kind of have
your own experience of it beinguseful.
There's no scent of it beingskewed.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, it didn't sell out.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It didn't sell out To the man you know, yeah, we'll
see.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So 58% of consumers say AI recommendations feel more
relevant than traditionalsearch engine results.
That's from.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
HubSpot, probably because they're summarizing it.
And then, lastly, websitesoptimized for AI-driven search,
which is what we're going totalk about today.
For example, structured answers, schema, faqs see up to a 35%
increase in organic visibilityacross these platforms, and the
inverse there is that you arelosing traffic if you're not
(10:31):
doing this.
We've already seen it in someof our websites that are in the
highly competitive spaces andweren't necessarily investing in
this type of optimization typeof optimization.
Just a quick housekeeping noteit has always been Caleb and I's
position that if you build areally good website and you were
(10:53):
in a medium to low competitivecategory and you just do a
really good job on your site, alot of this fancy SEO stuff that
gets sold to you in packagesand stuff has been not
productive in the past becauseit really comes down to is your
site fast, is it built well, isit structured well?
Does it say the right things?
Yeah, and so a lot of ourclients and if you're listening,
(11:14):
you know this is true we alwayslook at SEO and we say, hey, is
it time to do something here?
Because sometimes in our bigcities we have to do that, we
have to create more content, andwhen we do that.
It's expensive because we do it.
Right Now, sort of yesterday'sSEO is making a case for
everybody to need to invest inthis, and we have an answer for
(11:36):
that at FrankenMaven.
We have a way we're doing thisand we're doing it basically on
a project basis, of saying let'sgo in and inject your site with
some really friendly AI typestuff.
But I want to just point outthat there's a shift in how you
might actually apply this toyour marketing budget.
For the first time ever, we maysay to most of our clients like
(11:57):
, hey, we may pull a little bitfrom paid ads, which tend to get
the fastest results, and thenapply that more to SEO or GEO,
because it's actually happeningfaster.
Yeah.
There's a play for it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And I think we've had maybe like a negative.
Some of our past SEO episodeshave felt like maybe we turned
our nose down on some of the SEOpackages that have been sold,
because so many people overspendon it.
We turn our nose down on some ofthe SEO packages that have been
sold Because so many peopleoverspend on it.
It's usually the real problemhere is it's very often for a
small business, maybe less thana million dollars or maybe less
than $3 million in size.
(12:34):
It's very often the firstmarketing they're sold.
It's like, hey, you have awebsite, now pay me $500 or
$1,000 a month to build your SEOand that's what you're spending
your first thousand dollars on.
The reality is you need the,you need business, you need the
bills to be paid and you are.
You're in your first one tofive years of business.
You need leads, you needbusiness opportunities and that
(12:56):
shows up in a lot of othermedias and ways.
That's today customer marketing.
Seo can be a today media, butit does not show quick results.
It's a long play and it's justnot the first place we would
tell you to spend that $1,000.
Now, once you have your basescovered, yeah, you should
definitely have it inside ofyour plan.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yep, because you can afford to wait for it to work,
because it takes a bit, but whatI'm seeing is GEO is taking
place a little bit faster.
If you're doing the thingswe're about to talk about, and
without further ado, we're goingto go through the nine things
you ought to be doing.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Number one focus on topical authority.
Okay, so what we're going to dohere is you're going to have
very depth and explain thingsvery, very well, because you're
giving the AI really strongspecific content to pull from to
(13:53):
create an answer for somebodywho would be searching or not.
They're actually not searching.
They're asking yes, think aboutyou.
Got to think about the customerat the end of this.
They asked a question.
It's going to pull frompotentially you and a lot of
other places.
Are you going to have thespecific information that helps
that person?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
answer their question .
It's going to.
In a way it's running its ownGoogle search and just doing it
way, way, way faster, readingthe things that you might read
as a consumer.
But when it shows up to thegame, do you have the stuff to
answer it the way that it'ssupposed to be?
answering as a robot or are youtrying to fluff things?
(14:32):
And when?
I saw so many times in the pastand we've always pushed for
more clarity than this, but theywould be like you know how to
choose the right roofing companyand then they would be just
giving you a bunch of fluff Well, what you're going to want to
do is look for a roofing companywho's been in business for at
least 10 years.
Well, lo and behold, thatcompany has been in business 10
(14:52):
years and you're going to wantto look for one that has, you
know, maybe three locations,multiple locations.
And it's like they're justgiving you their selling points
and they're trying to make itrelevant.
And the truth is, if you'veused blog writing and we have as
well in SEO there was a periodof time where you could write
the blog content and it didn'thave to be all that helpful, and
(15:13):
just by way of word count andby having extra content on your
website, you would sort ofplease the search engine
algorithm enough to get you someplacement.
That is the exact opposite ofwhat you want to do today and
that has shifted literally on adime.
Yeah, I mean late last yearthere was some real big Google
(15:35):
attention to that.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Google has also shifted in this way.
It's not just an AI thing, thatis a Google shift.
It's how quickly and how.
We're going to talk about thisa little bit later as well.
But how, um, how uh specificcan you be about this?
And um, I think I think that'sa really a really key thing is,
instead of framing your thingsas kind of this ambiguous third
(16:00):
party, you need to frame it as Iam the searcher and I have
asked a question, so therefore,make your article essentially
the answer to that question.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
A good lens is like what would you tell your grandma
if she asked you this question?
And so we want people to searchfor, and this is how we used to
do it.
We want people to say well, howshould I shop for an estate
planning attorney, mr EstatePlanning Attorney Expert?
And it's like nobody wasactually probably searching that
.
They know their own dadgumreasons for shopping an estate
planning attorney, they're goingto do it their way.
So what you want to do instead,instead of writing this big,
(16:35):
glorious blog article how toShop for an Estate Planning
Attorney you want to have pagesthat talk about exactly what
people are looking for, likewhat is an estate plan?
Can I write my own estate plan?
Ooh, that's scary for a lawfirm to be able to even answer
that question.
You have to, because people areasking it without you and you
need to answer it and sayprobably yes, and this is what
you would have to know.
(16:55):
And these are all the stepsyou'd have to go through, and
even teach them how to do it.
You can leave a cliffhangerthere.
How do I avoid probate?
That's what people are actuallysearching for.
How to make my own a power ofattorney.
What does an estate plan cost?
If you want to be relevant inAI, which is the search engine
of the future, you have to beanswering these questions
(17:16):
legitimately.
Or just don't expect to haveany real estate on that in that
search, because what's happening?
By the way, I feel like we needto clarify this when you ask
GPT, it's giving you a summaryand then it has these little
links off to the authoritiesthat answer that question for it
.
Because GPT doesn't know thaton its own, it still has to rely
on some other website or a setof websites to give you the
(17:39):
answers.
But if you are the websitewithout the answers, you're the
website only with fluff andyou're not answering these
things that people are actuallypunching into GPT or any other
AI you're toast.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's using logic, not just an algorithm, right, and
that's the difference here isit's using logic.
So we're going to talk aboutsome.
Remind me to talk about trafficat the end here, because I
think it's important.
Nate the camera guy has gottraffic bookmarked.
Yes, so you need to have veryspecific questions, as your you
know what your blog's aboutNumber two, optimize for
(18:13):
featured snippets and AIsummaries.
This we've been talking about,actually for a little while.
We have yeah Because even ourlast SEO.
You know blogs that we've orpodcast episodes we've done.
You really want to writeconcise answers at the beginning
of the content so that wholetoo long didn't read kind of
(18:34):
summary.
That's not really what you wantto do, necessarily, but write a
paragraph.
If you could boil the wholething down to one answer which
is really what they're lookingfor.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
It's what everybody wants.
It's what they've wanted allalong yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Give them the short version right at the top and
just say how much does it cost?
To how much does an estate plancost?
Give me the exact answer, evenif it's a range.
Give me that answer right awayat the top of the page.
You can give a bunch of nuancein 500 words for the rest of the
page, but give it to me in 100words at the top.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So the old way, if we were to ask, hey, what does it
cost to replace a roof?
Would have been like oh, thereare many considerations when
estimating the price of yourroofing project.
You might have said a qualityor a qualified roofing
specialist can examine thedamage, talk to you about your
material options and produce acustom quadrant for your home.
And it's like you didn't reallylearn anything from that.
(19:30):
Right, that's the old way.
What you want to do instead now?
Literally the first words justshut up and answer the question
as asked.
Our average roof replacementwas $8,764 in 2024.
Our average repair ticket was$281, which includes our $75
service fee.
You answer questions like that.
You are going to rise to thetop of every AI answer in your
(19:53):
category.
Yep.
And then you might even addstuff.
According to the NationalRoofers Alliance I hope there is
one, I just made that up, butthe average replacement cost for
an asphalt shingle roof is$10,487 nationwide.
Like you were giving them theliteral answers so they can,
which was the best thing to doall along.
It's just some of us were tooafraid to do that, and you might
(20:13):
even put things like aprojected 7% increase in
material costs across theroofing industry could affect
this in 2025 and beyond.
You are going to soar if youstart answering it like that.
So that's what you'd want to doat the very top of the page,
like your own bullet-pointedreview, and the robot's going to
(20:34):
go out and go oh gosh, thankyou, you know, billy's Roofers,
for doing that for me.
They're going to just grab youand say this one's going in our
list, like they're still givingone, two, three, four, five
recommendations.
What you're going to want to doafter that?
(20:54):
Again continuing the theme of nofluff.
You want H2 sections for whataffects the cost of a roof.
Start giving all the contextualaround the topic type things.
This is where you can startbeing the expert again and kind
of giving maybe some plausibledoubt that they can do this on
(21:15):
their own and that they do needto reach out to you.
But you're doing it in a waythat is helping them first and
expecting the contact as abyproduct.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So you might have how to know if you need repair or
replacement.
What's the average lifespan ofa roof?
Will insurance cover me?
Think about this.
In your category it could beliterally any of them, Just all
the questions that probably yourfront office people or you as
the practitioner are getting.
Put them on the website andanswer.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yep, I did this little quick search.
By the way, google is grabbingthis too.
So what pleases GPT is pleasingGoogle, literally.
There's a section when I sayhow much does a roof cost?
And, by the way, there was nolocal companies doing this well.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Literally gave the answer $5,700 to $12,000 for a
1,200 score for roofing.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
With most homeowners spending around $8,400 on
architectural singles.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yes, Yep, so that's what you want to do, that's
clear as can be.
Yep, that's going to get youfeatured in those featured
snippets, which are the samething that GPT likes to pull
that and some of the otherthings we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Number three get more reviews and brand mentions.
The social signals have been athing for a very long time.
Your website, your brandexisting on the internet and
people pointing back to you hasbeen a thing since the beginning
of seo and it is still a thing,even more, I think, with geo or
(22:45):
aio or eieio um because, uh,both google and all of these uh
gpts are like trolling theentire internet and they're
looking not just at individualbits of content, but they're
looking at where all of thecontent leads and points.
(23:06):
And so if you are the referencepoint for credible information
from several other sites,they're going to view you as
more credible than somebody whonobody has ever referenced ever
before.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, so your review count still matters folks, and I
would like I'd be focusing onthat heavier than I've ever
focused on it, because they arelooking and they're looking at
all of them, by the way butthey're also, you know, google,
facebook, you know Angie's Listall that stuff where you could
have a five-star rating that isbeing taken into account, but
(23:36):
also places like Reddit andplaces like Quora.
Reddit would be more of a localtype thing.
There are probably localthreads in your market.
Literally, this used to be likethe nerdy, super dork forums of
the internet, but it's kind ofbecome more relevant than Google
in a lot of cases because it'sreal people giving real answers.
(23:58):
But it's kind of become morerelevant than Google in a lot of
cases because it's real peoplegiving real answers and there's
probably a subreddit for yourtown and people are asking about
mechanics and hospitals anddoctors and service companies in
your town on these big nationalwebsites.
So you ought to have a profilethere.
You ought to take some time andjust create your own answers to
those questions.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
That are being asked yeah, help people.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, that will help a ton in getting at the top of
the Google or sorry, the GPTqueries.
So that was number three.
Get more reviews and brandmentions.
As always.
Number four align withconversational queries.
This is my favorite one.
This is probably the mostgroundbreaking, I would say,
(24:38):
thing that most people are notdoing.
Do you want to take this one?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay, you're excited, so I'm so excited about it.
So what you should have noticedby now is that AI is not using
fluff language.
It's using real language.
It's trying to sound like ahuman, and so it's paying a lot
of attention to the actualstructure that people are
looking and in the order atwhich people are asking
questions.
Keep in mind, you know all theAI platforms Gemini, gpt all of
(25:05):
them are re-informing themselveslike tens of thousands of times
every minute as to whatsomebody else in another town
has searched and what's going onin this topic.
So you need to be obsessed withokay, if they ask this, what
else are they going to ask?
And so this conversationalquery and you can almost use
(25:25):
your own logic to say well, whatwould I be asking if?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I were them.
Why are they asking thisquestion?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Why are they asking that right?
And so there's a really greattool called alsoaskedcom and you
can literally just go in andput your search engine query and
so if I put in here like howmuch does it cost to replace a
roof in Missouri, it literallyspits out like the top 15 other
things that people are searching.
How much should I expect to payfor a new roof?
(25:50):
Does insurance cover a new roof?
What is the cheapest way toreplace a new roof?
How to negotiate the price of anew roof?
How much does it cost toreplace a 1,000-square-foot roof
roof?
How to negotiate the price of anew roof?
How much does it cost toreplace a thousand square foot
roof?
Guys, these should be pages onyour website, or at least FAQ
sections.
On an FAQ page you literallytake these questions that this
service and, by the way, googledoes the same thing.
(26:10):
They have the little peoplealso ask box that pops up on
basically every search.
You need to be writing pagesand answers to those questions,
because that's what's happening,that's how you become a
conversation and that's how themodern robots know if you are
real or fake and if you'rehelpful.
So a quick way to do it wouldbe just Google something and go
(26:33):
look for the five or sixquestions that pop up in.
The People Also Ask that's avery good modeling of what else
they're also talking about.
And then, if you want to getdeeper, go to alsoaskedcom.
You won't be surprised to seewhat's on there, but you will be
surprised to see how much youhaven't been answering those
questions.
You will be a little bitembarrassed and go.
This is easier than I thought.
Just give the people what theywant.
(26:53):
So summary for point numberfour is align with
conversational queries and justanswer all the questions.
Build stuff around the page.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, number five add more detailed structured
product and service pages.
So we want to make sure thatour service pages, or your
product pages, are going indepth.
They're not generic.
It's just same as these blogswe were talking about, but if
you, I'm trying to think of adifferent example of a company.
(27:24):
We've talked about roofers andwe've talked about attorneys.
But let's say it's that estateplanning page, If it's very
generic, if it could literallythe copy of it, if we replaced
your name and it could go on adifferent website across town
and it's all pretty much thesame, then you haven't been
specific enough or detailedenough, because it's not just
(27:46):
about you, and so you need tomake sure you list the benefits,
all the specs, the features,all the comparison and
especially, answer somefrequently asked questions,
getting those mixed up.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I put how long is your consult time?
What exactly do you get?
Here's something that the GEOengine is doing that Google
didn't really.
They are comparing all of thedetails that they can find about
you to the other places and itwill give a little summary of
like it even did this for Frankand Maven.
And I was like I didn't know wespecialized in that or I didn't
(28:22):
know we had that on our website,but they inferred all these
little details about our serviceand they pulled in reviews from
what other people had saidabout us online some we hadn't
even seen.
And so the more you can put andsay well, we have our free
consultation is a full hour anda half, and that's with a
certified attorney, not anactual or not a paralegal.
And you know you leave withthese five things and just
(28:48):
giving the actual details.
If it's a product that you'reselling, you want every
technical spec you can possiblyfind on it.
You want key benefits, anoutline of key benefits of this
product versus another one.
Comparison shopping is what GPDis going to do, better than
anything it's ever done before.
Yeah.
And if you don't have thedetails for them to compare to,
you're going to get left off thelist.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So more detail on your product and service pages.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
If it's a service company.
By the way, I think it covered.
You put really detailed partsabout your warranty in there
what we cover and what we don't.
Yep.
So that's good Number six gofor it.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Embed first party data and expertise, so share
your own statistics, customerdata, surveys or case studies.
Ai wants.
We've said the word specific.
I think I've said that about 10times.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You were really specific about that, since we
started recording this episode.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
If there's nothing you take away from this, it is
be specific.
Be more specific, and AI valuesoriginality and insight.
Like specific insight.
Google last year rolled outmajor changes throughout the
middle of the year and willcontinue to do that, but they
are basically discreditinganything that's not quality and
(30:06):
not original.
And how do you be original?
You have to be specific, youhave to be unique to you, and so
, if everything on your websiteis a regurgitation of something
else, if you, by the way, thisis why I would be careful about
having AI write your webpages.
I think it can help you writeyour webpages, but unless you
give it specifics, it'sinteresting, ai will respond
(30:32):
like a human.
It'll respond in the languagethat you speak, but as soon as
you tell it to write, itactually does use fluff.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
It uses fluff and finds it's trying to blend
everything else together becauseit doesn't.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's because it's reading all those old articles
and it thinks that's what youwant.
I'm writing a blog for like, ifyou give it that kind of prompt
, I'm writing a blog for mywebsite for a roofing company,
and it's like write one withthis thing and you don't give it
anything else.
It will be a fluffy blogbecause that's what it sees the
rest of the internet doing.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, ai is not.
Ai is maybe has originalsummaries, but does not have
original ideas, yeah, or facts.
Until you it does not exist asa human right, until you help it
.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Have that.
But all that to say be specific, be original and have case
studies.
Those are things that nobodyelse can do.
Be specific, Be more specific.
So on a lot of our homeimprovement websites we've had
completed work, completed jobs.
We've had specific, individualpages.
(31:34):
So not always just like agallery, like here's a bunch of
pictures, no-transcript.
(31:56):
In.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Springfield, missouri .
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You mention everything about it as much as
you can, and that's so specificbecause that job happened one
time and it's got pictures, itmentions the city that it's in,
it mentions all of those things,those kinds of posts.
I think we've had tremendousvalue in the past with SEO, but
I think they'll continue to havevalue going forward with GEO.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, and all the better if you can put real
reviews linked to those actualexperiences or products, so you
might do the case study.
If you are, I don't know.
Let's just say you're a payrollcompany you do a case study of
how you saved them 43 hours amonth on their payroll and you
increased employee satisfactionby 23% and all of that stuff.
(32:42):
And then you are actuallyputting a video with an embedded
transcript about that.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, about Sherry's experience with A+.
Exactly, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yep.
So case studies sound like howwe saved one family $82,000 in
taxes.
Podcasts might be like I don'tknow how to make your business
rank on chat.
Gpt Customer surveys just likeif you found the emerging trends
the five most popular colorsfor siting in 2025, that would
be like crack for GPT in 2025.
(33:15):
That would be like crack forGPT and all you have to do is
send out an email to like.
I don't know 20 of yourcustomers and say what color
siding do you like right now?
And, like then, you gotyourself a survey and a case
study right, the insights right.
That is really, really powerfulif you can put legs to that.
So that's embed first partydata and expertise.
(33:36):
Number seven optimize formulti-platform discovery.
Sounds fancy.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Fancy.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
We won't spend a ton of time on this, because this is
in the category of what youshould be doing anyway.
But when GPT sees you and I'msaying GBT I mean all the others
too but when it sees you withcontent on YouTube, maybe a page
on Pinterest, maybe some postson LinkedIn with your brand,
podcast transcripts on yourwebsite, and they see it all
(34:07):
syndicated in the same way, ittakes that as a signal.
And that's kind of unique,because Google has used, for as
long as I've been in the game,what they call no follow links,
and so somebody who was reallyprolific on social media didn't
really get an SEO boost fromthat directly.
I think GPT is taking that as alittle bit more of a direct
(34:30):
indication it doesn't care.
It doesn't care, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Google is the one who created all these rules for SEO
, because they were the leaders,so they dictated all of this
like what's a good link, I canfollow.
What's a repeated page?
Canonical links Like if youhave the same page on your
website two times.
Google created this wholeecosystem to help their
algorithm.
Because they wanted to help youhelp their algorithm.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
AI doesn't care.
It looks at all of it and makesits own decisions.
That's right, which is crazy tothink about.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
What it does know is more of what you actually want,
because guess what?
Guess what GPT is doing betterthan anything else?
It's looking at the last threemonths of what you've been
thinking.
That should scare you, but itshould also be like, oh wow,
that's what's happening to mybusiness and you want to do
(35:19):
something super creepy.
If you've used GPT or probablyany of the tools, but definitely
GPT does this ask it say hey,tell me about me in 500 words
and it will write you anastonishingly creepy description
of who you are what you think,what you believe, what you care
about, how you work, and it'llbe on the kind side of things.
(35:45):
It probably won't say you'reprobably a narcissist, you
obviously have it ugly here, butit's going to give you a.
It knows what you're doing andso it's weaving that into what
you want to see.
So what Caleb searches in AIprobably gets a different result
than what I search.
Now some of the authorities inthe same topics may pop up on
the list, but it's going to givehim a different summary than me
(36:07):
, because it knows how he rollsSomething you should do just for
fun.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Have it.
Tell you about your business.
That's what we did for Frankand Maven.
Tell me about the marketingagency frank and maven and then
just see what it says, and itwas pretty interesting how it um
made conclusions about ourbusiness, not exactly how we'd
say what we do but it was.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It was pretty close to accurate.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Um to an outsider looking in it would have been
accurate yeah, um, and it's alsotelling, because then you're
like oh, this is how people seeus.
Maybe we should adjust how wetalk about ourselves to that.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Speaking of that, tactic number eight is you need
to keep updated and freshcontent.
Keep in mind GPT's, looking atthe entire internet history of
you and one you want it to beaccurate.
There are things you do andthere are ways you you know show
up in the world that you didn'tused to.
So you need to make sure thatthe old stuff is gone but the
(37:00):
new stuff is frequent.
I'm going into the mode of,like somebody needs to be
generating content for you veryregularly, like there was a time
that there was like kind of dosome of it and then let it coast
.
I think we're going into aseason where we've got to have
regular people contributing tothis content and, frankly, like
(37:24):
on our end of things, we aregeared up to do that now because
it's a need that we see thatwasn't as big a need before, and
so you can get an agency to doit, if they understand you well,
or a third-party writer, or ifyou've got a good writer in your
office, him or her plussomebody who's skilled enough to
(37:44):
structure this and build itinto your website in the right
way, because it's part writingand it's also part technical
implementation on the site.
But you need to have freshstuff.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Speaking of that, which leads us to number nine
and the final one.
All the old SEO tactics stillapply as far as all those things
I told you Google kind ofinvented.
They didn't invent HTML, no,they didn't invent that.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But they did invent how to read it Times a billion
pages.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
And so structure your page, make sure your page title
at the top of the page is astrong H1, the first heading.
And then you know it's kind oflike when you're in school you
did the three-point paragraphsand you had very specific like.
My second point is this so yourtitle is your H1, then your H2s
are maybe your secondaryheadings, and then if you go
(38:33):
deeper than that, which we'rekind of advocating, that you
probably don't on most pagesYou're going down to H3, h4, and
it's just a tiered structure,it's like bullet points.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Like your outlines for high school or college
papers.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yep, make sure you're using FAQ schema.
You can.
So schema is a fancy way ofsaying.
A schema is like actually likethe structure, the makeup, the
way something is built isactually the structure, the
makeup, the way something isbuilt.
And so a schema of a databasehas all these.
It's got names over here, it'sgot email addresses over here
(39:07):
and how it all interacts withitself the schema on your
website.
You're telling Google howyou've structured this page and
there are schema snippets youcan include on the page.
Not just you have an FAQsection, but there's also you
can set separately in yourheading and in other places on
the site.
You can say I have FAQs on thispage, here is the question,
(39:29):
here's the answer and you cantell it all of these things.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You can do that.
You're probably hiring a nerdto do that.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That's nerdy stuff.
There are also tools that canhelp you with some of these
things.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
WordPress puts you in a good spot to do that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, there are like plugins or different things that
could maybe help you with that.
But make sure, if you have likee-commerce, that your product
schema is set up really well,that it knows the schema tells
it hey, this is the featuredimage.
Hey, this is the price.
Hey, this is the price.
Hey, this is the product title.
Hey, this is the description.
And that way it's not justrandom text on the page that
happens to be the title or theprice.
(40:02):
It is hey, google, this is theprice.
Hey, google, this is thedescription.
So use all of that.
Make sure you get the conciseanswers.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
We did this preemptively.
We kind of saw this coming.
We have a client who's in avery, very high-end jewelry
business and, frankly, theydon't really need to compete
locally with SEO.
They just have that.
They have such a strong brand.
But they were like, hey, thisother company, we're paying them
(40:30):
a pile of money a year and isit doing us any good?
And we're like, no, it's not.
Like they were buying the SEOpackage that a lot of you
probably are buying, which is Ablog a month or something like
that A blog a month, or hey,we'll check your keywords or
we'll write meta description.
It's like you know what that isso old and that is not even,
it's not even helpful in thealgorithms anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, it should be done.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
It's a box that should be checked Because it's
for user experience.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
But, by the way, when you have I don't know, even if
you have a big website 100 pageson your site once you've
written 100 meta descriptions.
That's done.
It's over.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
That's right, unless you have some new marketing
angle or some promotion orsomething like that.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Unless you added 10 new pages, then you've got 10
more meta descriptions to write,do it while you write the page.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's kind of like no-duh stuff.
So if you've got a nerd likeyou know taking a pound of flesh
out of you every month, or evena few hundred bucks, that's
probably a sign it's not working, because they're not thinking
about the stuff we're talkingabout now.
But we had a client that didthis gosh late last year and we
did like 50 of these pages, likeall this type of stuff we're
(41:34):
talking about.
The people also ask thecontextual, really
conversational type snippets.
We put a lot of detail to it.
We were really specific andliterally for the entire
internet.
Now this is a company that isbased in the Midwest not at all
a national company.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They're actually in a suburb, like a small town.
With what?
50,000?
Yes, not even 50,000 people.
Suburb like a small town.
With what?
50,000?
Yes, not even 50,000 people.
Suburb, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
But they are literally ranking for the entire
internet.
Their local jeweler site is anauthority because of the way we
wrote this content.
Now, will it always be?
Probably not, because somebodyelse that's a bigger website and
frankly cares more about thatis going to outrun them on a
(42:22):
national scene, but they willvery likely be the local
authority for a long, long, longtime.
Yeah, partly because they'refirst, but also partly because
we just did it really well.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
And they did the work to answer the questions.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
They did the work to answer the questions and they
were willing to tell you whattheir hourly cost is for the
jeweler.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
you know, behind the jeweler bench, customized
jewelry and all that stuff.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
So the takeaway is that there's time for you to be
first to the game and wouldn'twe have all loved to have been
first to the Google game 20years ago?
Wouldn't we have all loved tohave discovered Bitcoin?
Well, this is your holy grailmoment of like.
I can level up here and it'snot terribly expensive.
I mean, if you have any decentad budget, you can sliver
(43:08):
something out, and this can goto that.
You want to find an expert likegood writing and somebody who
is really really objectively notinside your business so that
they know how to say oh, but theperson's probably thinking this
they're going to keep you fromfluffing and BSing and doing
crappy fluff writing.
You need somebody like that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
They need to call you out too.
They have to be able to shootstraight and say nope, that's
not specific enough, You'retrying to hide it.
Tell me more.
Tell me exactly what.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Tell me what the nail actually costs.
Yeah, you're trying to hide it.
Tell me more.
Tell me exactly what yeah?
Tell me what the nail actuallycosts, right?
Yeah, so we've used estateplanning and roofing.
Those are just really easyexamples to grab because
everybody gets them, but thisliterally applies to everything
you do.
We're doing this on our ownwebsite for the record.
And we don't even.
We don't really need to.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
We don't really need to because we don't.
Yeah, we, well, we don't.
That's not how we usually getbusiness yeah, what we want
actually is for this podcast tohelp more people.
That's why we do it absolutelyat the end of the day is we want
to help answer these questionsabout marketing so that, because
there's a lot of marketingfluff out there, if we can help
people get down to thenitty-gritty, the actual answers
, then we've done our job too soyes, we have, and hopefully
(44:16):
that's your motive at the end ofthe day, obviously, you got a
business, you have to grow, youhave to get customers, you have
to pay the bills, um.
But even if you're in, you know,on the East coast and you help
somebody in Washington, you knowsolve, you know get a clear
answer on their estate plan orhow they're, how, how, like the
right questions to ask a roofer,or or how to claim insurance or
(44:37):
whatever that might be, you'vedone a good job and and, by the
way, you've, you've increasedyour authority, you've helped
build a reputation, yeah, Um why?
Speaker 1 (44:46):
why do we want this podcast to to reach more people?
Caleb, like what?
What are we doing?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Well, uh, cause Frank and Ma frankenmaven exists to
create a world whereentrepreneurs can confidently
grow their business withoutwasting money on advertising.
And, um, that really comes frombrandon's story and the story
we've seen from a lot ofentrepreneurs, which is they've
spent thousands and thousands ofdollars not knowing whether or
not it works not knowing whetheror not it's helping to grow
(45:14):
their business.
It is.
Is my business just growing onaccident because I do good work,
or is it growing because thismarketing is actually drawing
people to me?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Which leads them to compromise their ability to
impact more people in theircommunity in their workforce, in
their family, all of the things.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, you could.
I'd rather you save the moneythat you would spend on
marketing and give everybody araise.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Absolutely.
We would rather that.
That's why we eliminate waste.
We keep the stuff that's good.
That's going to allow you to domore and we eliminate the waste
for the other stuff.
Did you know people will spend94 more times under the roof of
the small business they work forthan they will at their own
church?
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I did know that, I did know that, you did know that
, sean Copeland.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, Sean Copeland taught Caleb and I both that
Wonderful book called 94X aboutwhat happens when you bring God
into your business.
But think about ourresponsibility, even if you
don't take it to the analogy ofthe church our responsibility to
do more, have more, grow more,build more.
And it is tough the higher yougo, the steeper the climb.
But that is why we're here.
That's why this podcast mattersto us.
(46:23):
That is, the vision we have forthe world is that entrepreneurs
would not only thrive andsurvive through all the
headwinds and highs and lows,but we would step into our
calling and our purpose to bringmore impact to people and
that's how we're doing that withthis podcast.
We are seeing that permeatethrough the people we get to
(46:43):
serve directly and then throughyou indirectly, and we just love
, love, love hearing your growthstories.
I'm going to leave you withsomething I read from Robert
Louis Stevenson, and this isvery relevant to GEO as well as
it is to business and life, andthat is don't judge each day by
(47:04):
the harvest you reap, but by theseeds you plant.
We'll be back here every Mondaydoing our best to plant seeds,
and we can't wait to see andhear more about the ones you are
planting.
And that is why we're here,because marketers who can't
teach you why are just fancylies.
Have a great week.
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, Brandon Welch,and I'm joined by Caleb Suntan
Agee.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hit the beach last week with the kids.
He's got the beach.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Looks like SPF 30 treatment all over you.
Looks like I've been kissed bythe sun.
You have been kissed by the sun, this whole body, body.
That's how John been kissed bythe sun.
You have been kissed by the sun, this whole body, body.
That's how John Mayer would sayit.
Body, body, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I think that's a who's, that it's a family guy.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's a family guy thing.
All right, I was actually youbetter be okay with it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was actually going with the singer.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
But body.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Baddies I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Seal, I don't know who knows.
Hey, this is the place where wehelp you eliminate waste in
advertising, grow your businessand achieve the big dream.
And we all know big dreams allstart at the search engine.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
right Wrong, but it does have a lot to do with it.
Right, that's where dreams aremade or broken.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, they're going to be broken.
I got to tell you, hey, SEO ischanging and we have.
We've been fielding questionsfor this and building strategies
for the last gosh year or two,but it's really, really hit the
road the last few months and,for whatever reason, peak
literally like May.
(01:17):
April and May of 2025 was thepeak of like.
I think everybody I encounteredwas like, how do you rank on
GPT?
And I'm seeing my competitorsand customers.
You know customers use it.
Competitors rank there.
Maybe you are, maybe you aren'tthere.
So how do we do that?
And we have a nine part answerfor you today and if you do even
(01:38):
a handful of these things, youare going to be miles ahead of
the game.
We don't need to sit here andbelabor the point that AI is
taking over.
Ai is rapid adoption, more thanany technology, like faster
than by 10 to 15 times than theaverage technology adoption
curve, If you think of, like,iPhones and good old-fashioned
(02:00):
Google.
This is happening in months,not years, and we have the
master.
Caleb has long been the SEOarchitect at Frank and Maven,
and so I'm going to throw thingsup and he's going to actually
bring some technical.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Knock him out of the park.
Knock him out of the park.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I'm going to toss up, he's going to knock it out of
the park, but today you're goingto leave with nine things you
can be doing to have a fightingchance and actually a huge
competitive advantage, because Ibet, if you are one of the
owner-operated companies we loveto serve, your competitors
probably aren't doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, and this whole world is new.
So we're going to open with acaveat of saying what we say
today will probably change insix months and it'll definitely
change in a year.
The basics of what we'retalking about, the principles
here, I think they will applylong term.
They're not going to go away.
We're not going on any likesuper basic nerdy piece that
(02:59):
will be outdated or outmoded,you know, in a very short time.
But the nuances of all of thesehow much one thing helps versus
another thing will shift andchange, just like we've seen
Google algorithms change overthe time.
It's all new and everybody'strying to get their legs about
them.
Fun thing the going names areGEO which stands for Generative
(03:22):
Engine Optimization.
So generative means an AI is agenerative engine, or I like AIO
, but it sounds like OldMacDonald has a farm.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Whatever you are EOing, we have an answer for it,
because here's why it doesn'tchange.
Here's why this podcast willactually be relevant in 10 years
from now.
You heard it here.
What is the big idea?
What has Google always beentrying to do?
Serve the searcher, serve thesearcher the answer to their
question.
(03:55):
They've always been trying tobe more human.
They've always been trying todeliver you the best answers, or
else you won't use that, you'lluse something else right.
Deliver you the best answers,or else you won't use that,
you'll use something else right.
And so all of the technicalstuff there's over 200 little
tiny parts of like a searchengine algorithm.
All of those were neverdesigned so that you could hack
(04:15):
them and like make some magicanswer to their invisible
problem.
It was all.
That was their best guess andthat was their best way to sort
out all the billions of piecesof data on the internet in a
ranking fashion that they had apretty good confidence they were
giving you the best result.
Well, the same underlyingprinciple is true for AI.
It's just way dadgum smarter.
(04:36):
It's just way smarter, wayfaster, and it's more
intelligent and able toregurgitate information in the
way we actually want to see it.
So it's kind of like SEO, asit's always been on steroids.
Yep.
And so the people that werereally good at SEO are probably
already miles ahead, but thereare some very specific things
(04:58):
that AI is not looking at asmuch that you can control,
frankly, faster and better thanyou could have on SEO.
And that's what gives you theadvantage, and that's what we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, let's talk about some stats on AI.
Real quick, to just drive thepoint home, I've got a stat.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Bring it on 79% of people have used generative AI
to find answers instead of atraditional search engine.
Generative AI, let's just beclear that's your GPTs, that's
your Geminis, that's your GoogleAI overviews.
Generative AI means it can takebig pieces of information and
(05:36):
then summarize its own versionof that.
It can make up things thatweren't previously written
because it has the code of humanlanguage.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, it's not necessarily direct, quoting you
right.
A Google search engine pulls upa snippet of your webpage,
typically, or a page from yourwebsite, and even in the meta
description it might highlight Idon't know if you remember
it'll highlight the word yousearched and show you.
Or, if it didn't have theperfect result, it'll say show
results that have to containthis word.
(06:07):
Yeah, you know, ai is not doingthat.
It's taking you at your wordand it's searching the whole
internet essentially for you.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's taking those three hours you would have spent
parsing articles and it's doingit for you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The first page of Google is 10-ish web page.
Actually, it's like an infinitescroll now, but it's taking all
10 of those pages, reading themfor you and summarizing for you
.
Hey, anybody, hate these lazykids, because this next one
you'll love 43% of Gen Z nowstart product discovery on
TikTok, youtube or AI chat tools, not Google.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I'm actually going to take back that statement
because Gen Z is the least lazygeneration I've seen in, like
ever.
That's why Nate the camera guyis in here working with his nine
arms.
Gen Z says this is stupid.
I don't have time to waste onthis.
Yeah, they have a extremelyhigh filter for what is worth
their time and what is not worththeir time, and how they can
(07:03):
natively use technology theirtime and what is not worth their
time and how they can nativelyuse technology Like they were
born little inspector gadgetsand they can just, you know, go
go chat GPT and tell me thisbefore I have to waste weeks or
months or hours on a YouTubevideo learning it.
Yeah.
That's why, like, that's howthey start their product
discovery that's not one thingthey use.
That's like they don't evenreach for Google.
(07:24):
They go yeah, that's dad onething they use.
That's like they don't evenreach for Google.
They go that's dad's old, rustytool.
We're going straight to GPT.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Fun trick.
We did the road trip to Florida.
Said, hey, I've got kids.
One of them's a baby.
We need to stop every two tothree hours.
Give me great stops along theway Planned out our entire
itinerary.
Wow Chat GPT did.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And the way planned out our entire itinerary.
Wow, chat gpt did and it wasbrilliant cheat gpt for the win.
Yep, so hey, ai generatedanswers.
Uh, stat number three influencebuying decisions for 61 percent
of users who interact with them.
So, uh, they're taking it to thebank yep I want to say that the
the the most trusted form ofadvertising back in the days
when I kind of knew this dad offcuff was obviously referrals
(08:09):
from a friend.
It was like 90-somethingpercent of people did that.
Then there was like traditionalmedia, like newspapers, and
then search was just likeclosely behind that, but it
wasn't that high.
It was in the 40s or 50spercent.
People are trusting GPTinherently and quickly, which is
interesting because it can't bebought.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That is the key here.
At the moment, there are no adsinside of these GPTs, and so
you can't cheat the system.
You can't run paid AI ads toland at the top of these search
results.
They are agnostic, they look atthe internet as a whole, and
unless you apply theseprinciples, that we'll talk
about later.
You lose.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Somebody asked me the other day do you think this
will go the way of Google?
And I'm like man, I would bereally, really shocked if any AI
platform let ads into it,definitely on a paid version.
Yeah, I guess I could see thead-supported model becoming a
thing later.
Like your Quora's and yourReddits and stuff like that.
(09:13):
Those are being supported byads and at one point they were
almost all organic, so I can seethat happening.
So, like GPT takes over GoogleSpot and they, you know, you
could have a premium version,which we have right, but if
you're just any everyday person,you might be limited to the
amount of searches.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I don't think they dilute the search.
We're just speculating rightnow.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I don't think they dilute the search any more than
they just put.
Be extremely trusting of thetechnology and to kind of have
your own experience of it beinguseful.
There's no scent of it beingskewed.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, it didn't sell out.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It didn't sell out To the man you know, yeah, we'll
see.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So 58% of consumers say AI recommendations feel more
relevant than traditionalsearch engine results.
That's from.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
HubSpot, probably because they're summarizing it.
And then, lastly, websitesoptimized for AI-driven search,
which is what we're going totalk about today.
For example, structured answers, schema, faqs see up to a 35%
increase in organic visibilityacross these platforms, and the
inverse there is that you arelosing traffic if you're not
(10:31):
doing this.
We've already seen it in someof our websites that are in the
highly competitive spaces andweren't necessarily investing in
this type of optimization typeof optimization.
Just a quick housekeeping noteit has always been Caleb and I's
position that if you build areally good website and you were
(10:53):
in a medium to low competitivecategory and you just do a
really good job on your site, alot of this fancy SEO stuff that
gets sold to you in packagesand stuff has been not
productive in the past becauseit really comes down to is your
site fast, is it built well, isit structured well?
Does it say the right things?
Yeah, and so a lot of ourclients and if you're listening,
(11:14):
you know this is true we alwayslook at SEO and we say, hey, is
it time to do something here?
Because sometimes in our bigcities we have to do that, we
have to create more content, andwhen we do that.
It's expensive because we do it.
Right Now, sort of yesterday'sSEO is making a case for
everybody to need to invest inthis, and we have an answer for
(11:36):
that at FrankenMaven.
We have a way we're doing thisand we're doing it basically on
a project basis, of saying let'sgo in and inject your site with
some really friendly AI typestuff.
But I want to just point outthat there's a shift in how you
might actually apply this toyour marketing budget.
For the first time ever, we maysay to most of our clients like
(11:57):
, hey, we may pull a little bitfrom paid ads, which tend to get
the fastest results, and thenapply that more to SEO or GEO,
because it's actually happeningfaster.
Yeah.
There's a play for it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And I think we've had maybe like a negative.
Some of our past SEO episodeshave felt like maybe we turned
our nose down on some of the SEOpackages that have been sold,
because so many people overspendon it.
We turn our nose down on some ofthe SEO packages that have been
sold Because so many peopleoverspend on it.
It's usually the real problemhere is it's very often for a
small business, maybe less thana million dollars or maybe less
than $3 million in size.
(12:34):
It's very often the firstmarketing they're sold.
It's like, hey, you have awebsite, now pay me $500 or
$1,000 a month to build your SEOand that's what you're spending
your first thousand dollars on.
The reality is you need the,you need business, you need the
bills to be paid and you are.
You're in your first one tofive years of business.
You need leads, you needbusiness opportunities and that
(12:56):
shows up in a lot of othermedias and ways.
That's today customer marketing.
Seo can be a today media, butit does not show quick results.
It's a long play and it's justnot the first place we would
tell you to spend that $1,000.
Now, once you have your basescovered, yeah, you should
definitely have it inside ofyour plan.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yep, because you can afford to wait for it to work,
because it takes a bit, but whatI'm seeing is GEO is taking
place a little bit faster.
If you're doing the thingswe're about to talk about, and
without further ado, we're goingto go through the nine things
you ought to be doing.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Number one focus on topical authority.
Okay, so what we're going to dohere is you're going to have
very depth and explain thingsvery, very well, because you're
giving the AI really strongspecific content to pull from to
(13:53):
create an answer for somebodywho would be searching or not.
They're actually not searching.
They're asking yes, think aboutyou.
Got to think about the customerat the end of this.
They asked a question.
It's going to pull frompotentially you and a lot of
other places.
Are you going to have thespecific information that helps
that person?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
answer their question .
It's going to.
In a way it's running its ownGoogle search and just doing it
way, way, way faster, readingthe things that you might read
as a consumer.
But when it shows up to thegame, do you have the stuff to
answer it the way that it'ssupposed to be?
answering as a robot or are youtrying to fluff things?
(14:32):
And when?
I saw so many times in the pastand we've always pushed for
more clarity than this, but theywould be like you know how to
choose the right roofing companyand then they would be just
giving you a bunch of fluff Well, what you're going to want to
do is look for a roofing companywho's been in business for at
least 10 years.
Well, lo and behold, thatcompany has been in business 10
(14:52):
years and you're going to wantto look for one that has, you
know, maybe three locations,multiple locations.
And it's like they're justgiving you their selling points
and they're trying to make itrelevant.
And the truth is, if you'veused blog writing and we have as
well in SEO there was a periodof time where you could write
the blog content and it didn'thave to be all that helpful, and
(15:13):
just by way of word count andby having extra content on your
website, you would sort ofplease the search engine
algorithm enough to get you someplacement.
That is the exact opposite ofwhat you want to do today and
that has shifted literally on adime.
Yeah, I mean late last yearthere was some real big Google
(15:35):
attention to that.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Google has also shifted in this way.
It's not just an AI thing, thatis a Google shift.
It's how quickly and how.
We're going to talk about thisa little bit later as well.
But how, um, how uh specificcan you be about this?
And um, I think I think that'sa really a really key thing is,
instead of framing your thingsas kind of this ambiguous third
(16:00):
party, you need to frame it as Iam the searcher and I have
asked a question, so therefore,make your article essentially
the answer to that question.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
A good lens is like what would you tell your grandma
if she asked you this question?
And so we want people to searchfor, and this is how we used to
do it.
We want people to say well, howshould I shop for an estate
planning attorney, mr EstatePlanning Attorney Expert?
And it's like nobody wasactually probably searching that
.
They know their own dadgumreasons for shopping an estate
planning attorney, they're goingto do it their way.
So what you want to do instead,instead of writing this big,
(16:35):
glorious blog article how toShop for an Estate Planning
Attorney you want to have pagesthat talk about exactly what
people are looking for, likewhat is an estate plan?
Can I write my own estate plan?
Ooh, that's scary for a lawfirm to be able to even answer
that question.
You have to, because people areasking it without you and you
need to answer it and sayprobably yes, and this is what
you would have to know.
(16:55):
And these are all the stepsyou'd have to go through, and
even teach them how to do it.
You can leave a cliffhangerthere.
How do I avoid probate?
That's what people are actuallysearching for.
How to make my own a power ofattorney.
What does an estate plan cost?
If you want to be relevant inAI, which is the search engine
of the future, you have to beanswering these questions
(17:16):
legitimately.
Or just don't expect to haveany real estate on that in that
search, because what's happening?
By the way, I feel like we needto clarify this when you ask
GPT, it's giving you a summaryand then it has these little
links off to the authoritiesthat answer that question for it
.
Because GPT doesn't know thaton its own, it still has to rely
on some other website or a setof websites to give you the
(17:39):
answers.
But if you are the websitewithout the answers, you're the
website only with fluff andyou're not answering these
things that people are actuallypunching into GPT or any other
AI you're toast.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
It's using logic, not just an algorithm, right, and
that's the difference here isit's using logic.
So we're going to talk aboutsome.
Remind me to talk about trafficat the end here, because I
think it's important.
Nate the camera guy has gottraffic bookmarked.
Yes, so you need to have veryspecific questions, as your you
know what your blog's aboutNumber two, optimize for
(18:13):
featured snippets and AIsummaries.
This we've been talking about,actually for a little while.
We have yeah Because even ourlast SEO.
You know blogs that we've orpodcast episodes we've done.
You really want to writeconcise answers at the beginning
of the content so that wholetoo long didn't read kind of
(18:34):
summary.
That's not really what you wantto do, necessarily, but write a
paragraph.
If you could boil the wholething down to one answer which
is really what they're lookingfor.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
It's what everybody wants.
It's what they've wanted allalong yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Give them the short version right at the top and
just say how much does it cost?
To how much does an estate plancost?
Give me the exact answer, evenif it's a range.
Give me that answer right awayat the top of the page.
You can give a bunch of nuancein 500 words for the rest of the
page, but give it to me in 100words at the top.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So the old way, if we were to ask, hey, what does it
cost to replace a roof?
Would have been like oh, thereare many considerations when
estimating the price of yourroofing project.
You might have said a qualityor a qualified roofing
specialist can examine thedamage, talk to you about your
material options and produce acustom quadrant for your home.
And it's like you didn't reallylearn anything from that.
(19:30):
Right, that's the old way.
What you want to do instead now?
Literally the first words justshut up and answer the question
as asked.
Our average roof replacementwas $8,764 in 2024.
Our average repair ticket was$281, which includes our $75
service fee.
You answer questions like that.
You are going to rise to thetop of every AI answer in your
(19:53):
category.
Yep.
And then you might even addstuff.
According to the NationalRoofers Alliance I hope there is
one, I just made that up, butthe average replacement cost for
an asphalt shingle roof is$10,487 nationwide.
Like you were giving them theliteral answers so they can,
which was the best thing to doall along.
It's just some of us were tooafraid to do that, and you might
(20:13):
even put things like aprojected 7% increase in
material costs across theroofing industry could affect
this in 2025 and beyond.
You are going to soar if youstart answering it like that.
So that's what you'd want to doat the very top of the page,
like your own bullet-pointedreview, and the robot's going to
(20:34):
go out and go oh gosh, thankyou, you know, billy's Roofers,
for doing that for me.
They're going to just grab youand say this one's going in our
list, like they're still givingone, two, three, four, five
recommendations.
What you're going to want to doafter that?
(20:54):
Again continuing the theme of nofluff.
You want H2 sections for whataffects the cost of a roof.
Start giving all the contextualaround the topic type things.
This is where you can startbeing the expert again and kind
of giving maybe some plausibledoubt that they can do this on
(21:15):
their own and that they do needto reach out to you.
But you're doing it in a waythat is helping them first and
expecting the contact as abyproduct.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So you might have how to know if you need repair or
replacement.
What's the average lifespan ofa roof?
Will insurance cover me?
Think about this.
In your category it could beliterally any of them, Just all
the questions that probably yourfront office people or you as
the practitioner are getting.
Put them on the website andanswer.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yep, I did this little quick search.
By the way, google is grabbingthis too.
So what pleases GPT is pleasingGoogle, literally.
There's a section when I sayhow much does a roof cost?
And, by the way, there was nolocal companies doing this well.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Literally gave the answer $5,700 to $12,000 for a
1,200 score for roofing.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
With most homeowners spending around $8,400 on
architectural singles.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yes, Yep, so that's what you want to do, that's
clear as can be.
Yep, that's going to get youfeatured in those featured
snippets, which are the samething that GPT likes to pull
that and some of the otherthings we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Number three get more reviews and brand mentions.
The social signals have been athing for a very long time.
Your website, your brandexisting on the internet and
people pointing back to you hasbeen a thing since the beginning
of seo and it is still a thing,even more, I think, with geo or
(22:45):
aio or eieio um because, uh,both google and all of these uh
gpts are like trolling theentire internet and they're
looking not just at individualbits of content, but they're
looking at where all of thecontent leads and points.
(23:06):
And so if you are the referencepoint for credible information
from several other sites,they're going to view you as
more credible than somebody whonobody has ever referenced ever
before.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, so your review count still matters folks, and I
would like I'd be focusing onthat heavier than I've ever
focused on it, because they arelooking and they're looking at
all of them, by the way butthey're also, you know, google,
facebook, you know Angie's Listall that stuff where you could
have a five-star rating that isbeing taken into account, but
(23:36):
also places like Reddit andplaces like Quora.
Reddit would be more of a localtype thing.
There are probably localthreads in your market.
Literally, this used to be likethe nerdy, super dork forums of
the internet, but it's kind ofbecome more relevant than Google
in a lot of cases because it'sreal people giving real answers.
(23:58):
But it's kind of become morerelevant than Google in a lot of
cases because it's real peoplegiving real answers and there's
probably a subreddit for yourtown and people are asking about
mechanics and hospitals anddoctors and service companies in
your town on these big nationalwebsites.
So you ought to have a profilethere.
You ought to take some time andjust create your own answers to
those questions.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
That are being asked yeah, help people.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, that will help a ton in getting at the top of
the Google or sorry, the GPTqueries.
So that was number three.
Get more reviews and brandmentions.
As always.
Number four align withconversational queries.
This is my favorite one.
This is probably the mostgroundbreaking, I would say,
(24:38):
thing that most people are notdoing.
Do you want to take this one?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You got it.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay, you're excited, so I'm so excited about it.
So what you should have noticedby now is that AI is not using
fluff language.
It's using real language.
It's trying to sound like ahuman, and so it's paying a lot
of attention to the actualstructure that people are
looking and in the order atwhich people are asking
questions.
Keep in mind, you know all theAI platforms Gemini, gpt all of
(25:05):
them are re-informing themselveslike tens of thousands of times
every minute as to whatsomebody else in another town
has searched and what's going onin this topic.
So you need to be obsessed withokay, if they ask this, what
else are they going to ask?
And so this conversationalquery and you can almost use
(25:25):
your own logic to say well, whatwould I be asking if?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I were them.
Why are they asking thisquestion?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Why are they asking that right?
And so there's a really greattool called alsoaskedcom and you
can literally just go in andput your search engine query and
so if I put in here like howmuch does it cost to replace a
roof in Missouri, it literallyspits out like the top 15 other
things that people are searching.
How much should I expect to payfor a new roof?
(25:50):
Does insurance cover a new roof?
What is the cheapest way toreplace a new roof?
How to negotiate the price of anew roof?
How much does it cost toreplace a 1,000-square-foot roof
roof?
How to negotiate the price of anew roof?
How much does it cost toreplace a thousand square foot
roof?
Guys, these should be pages onyour website, or at least FAQ
sections.
On an FAQ page you literallytake these questions that this
service and, by the way, googledoes the same thing.
(26:10):
They have the little peoplealso ask box that pops up on
basically every search.
You need to be writing pagesand answers to those questions,
because that's what's happening,that's how you become a
conversation and that's how themodern robots know if you are
real or fake and if you'rehelpful.
So a quick way to do it wouldbe just Google something and go
(26:33):
look for the five or sixquestions that pop up in.
The People Also Ask that's avery good modeling of what else
they're also talking about.
And then, if you want to getdeeper, go to alsoaskedcom.
You won't be surprised to seewhat's on there, but you will be
surprised to see how much youhaven't been answering those
questions.
You will be a little bitembarrassed and go.
This is easier than I thought.
Just give the people what theywant.
(26:53):
So summary for point numberfour is align with
conversational queries and justanswer all the questions.
Build stuff around the page.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, number five add more detailed structured
product and service pages.
So we want to make sure thatour service pages, or your
product pages, are going indepth.
They're not generic.
It's just same as these blogswe were talking about, but if
you, I'm trying to think of adifferent example of a company.
(27:24):
We've talked about roofers andwe've talked about attorneys.
But let's say it's that estateplanning page, If it's very
generic, if it could literallythe copy of it, if we replaced
your name and it could go on adifferent website across town
and it's all pretty much thesame, then you haven't been
specific enough or detailedenough, because it's not just
(27:46):
about you, and so you need tomake sure you list the benefits,
all the specs, the features,all the comparison and
especially, answer somefrequently asked questions,
getting those mixed up.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I put how long is your consult time?
What exactly do you get?
Here's something that the GEOengine is doing that Google
didn't really.
They are comparing all of thedetails that they can find about
you to the other places and itwill give a little summary of
like it even did this for Frankand Maven.
And I was like I didn't know wespecialized in that or I didn't
(28:22):
know we had that on our website,but they inferred all these
little details about our serviceand they pulled in reviews from
what other people had saidabout us online some we hadn't
even seen.
And so the more you can put andsay well, we have our free
consultation is a full hour anda half, and that's with a
certified attorney, not anactual or not a paralegal.
And you know you leave withthese five things and just
(28:48):
giving the actual details.
If it's a product that you'reselling, you want every
technical spec you can possiblyfind on it.
You want key benefits, anoutline of key benefits of this
product versus another one.
Comparison shopping is what GPDis going to do, better than
anything it's ever done before.
Yeah.
And if you don't have thedetails for them to compare to,
you're going to get left off thelist.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So more detail on your product and service pages.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
If it's a service company.
By the way, I think it covered.
You put really detailed partsabout your warranty in there
what we cover and what we don't.
Yep.
So that's good Number six gofor it.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Embed first party data and expertise, so share
your own statistics, customerdata, surveys or case studies.
Ai wants.
We've said the word specific.
I think I've said that about 10times.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You were really specific about that, since we
started recording this episode.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
If there's nothing you take away from this, it is
be specific.
Be more specific, and AI valuesoriginality and insight.
Like specific insight.
Google last year rolled outmajor changes throughout the
middle of the year and willcontinue to do that, but they
are basically discreditinganything that's not quality and
(30:06):
not original.
And how do you be original?
You have to be specific, youhave to be unique to you, and so
, if everything on your websiteis a regurgitation of something
else, if you, by the way, thisis why I would be careful about
having AI write your webpages.
I think it can help you writeyour webpages, but unless you
give it specifics, it'sinteresting, ai will respond
(30:32):
like a human.
It'll respond in the languagethat you speak, but as soon as
you tell it to write, itactually does use fluff.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
It uses fluff and finds it's trying to blend
everything else together becauseit doesn't.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's because it's reading all those old articles
and it thinks that's what youwant.
I'm writing a blog for like, ifyou give it that kind of prompt
, I'm writing a blog for mywebsite for a roofing company,
and it's like write one withthis thing and you don't give it
anything else.
It will be a fluffy blogbecause that's what it sees the
rest of the internet doing.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, ai is not.
Ai is maybe has originalsummaries, but does not have
original ideas, yeah, or facts.
Until you it does not exist asa human right, until you help it
.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Have that.
But all that to say be specific, be original and have case
studies.
Those are things that nobodyelse can do.
Be specific, Be more specific.
So on a lot of our homeimprovement websites we've had
completed work, completed jobs.
We've had specific, individualpages.
(31:34):
So not always just like agallery, like here's a bunch of
pictures, no-transcript.
(31:56):
In.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Springfield, missouri .
Speaker 2 (31:58):
You mention everything about it as much as
you can, and that's so specificbecause that job happened one
time and it's got pictures, itmentions the city that it's in,
it mentions all of those things,those kinds of posts.
I think we've had tremendousvalue in the past with SEO, but
I think they'll continue to havevalue going forward with GEO.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, and all the better if you can put real
reviews linked to those actualexperiences or products, so you
might do the case study.
If you are, I don't know.
Let's just say you're a payrollcompany you do a case study of
how you saved them 43 hours amonth on their payroll and you
increased employee satisfactionby 23% and all of that stuff.
(32:42):
And then you are actuallyputting a video with an embedded
transcript about that.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, about Sherry's experience with A+.
Exactly, and yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yep.
So case studies sound like howwe saved one family $82,000 in
taxes.
Podcasts might be like I don'tknow how to make your business
rank on chat.
Gpt Customer surveys just likeif you found the emerging trends
the five most popular colorsfor siting in 2025, that would
be like crack for GPT in 2025.
(33:15):
That would be like crack forGPT and all you have to do is
send out an email to like.
I don't know 20 of yourcustomers and say what color
siding do you like right now?
And, like then, you gotyourself a survey and a case
study right, the insights right.
That is really, really powerfulif you can put legs to that.
So that's embed first partydata and expertise.
(33:36):
Number seven optimize formulti-platform discovery.
Sounds fancy.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Fancy.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
We won't spend a ton of time on this, because this is
in the category of what youshould be doing anyway.
But when GPT sees you and I'msaying GBT I mean all the others
too but when it sees you withcontent on YouTube, maybe a page
on Pinterest, maybe some postson LinkedIn with your brand,
podcast transcripts on yourwebsite, and they see it all
(34:07):
syndicated in the same way, ittakes that as a signal.
And that's kind of unique,because Google has used, for as
long as I've been in the game,what they call no follow links,
and so somebody who was reallyprolific on social media didn't
really get an SEO boost fromthat directly.
I think GPT is taking that as alittle bit more of a direct
(34:30):
indication it doesn't care.
It doesn't care, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Google is the one who created all these rules for SEO
, because they were the leaders,so they dictated all of this
like what's a good link, I canfollow.
What's a repeated page?
Canonical links Like if youhave the same page on your
website two times.
Google created this wholeecosystem to help their
algorithm.
Because they wanted to help youhelp their algorithm.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
AI doesn't care.
It looks at all of it and makesits own decisions.
That's right, which is crazy tothink about.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
What it does know is more of what you actually want,
because guess what?
Guess what GPT is doing betterthan anything else?
It's looking at the last threemonths of what you've been
thinking.
That should scare you, but itshould also be like, oh wow,
that's what's happening to mybusiness and you want to do
(35:19):
something super creepy.
If you've used GPT or probablyany of the tools, but definitely
GPT does this ask it say hey,tell me about me in 500 words
and it will write you anastonishingly creepy description
of who you are what you think,what you believe, what you care
about, how you work, and it'llbe on the kind side of things.
(35:45):
It probably won't say you'reprobably a narcissist, you
obviously have it ugly here, butit's going to give you a.
It knows what you're doing andso it's weaving that into what
you want to see.
So what Caleb searches in AIprobably gets a different result
than what I search.
Now some of the authorities inthe same topics may pop up on
the list, but it's going to givehim a different summary than me
(36:07):
, because it knows how he rollsSomething you should do just for
fun.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Have it.
Tell you about your business.
That's what we did for Frankand Maven.
Tell me about the marketingagency frank and maven and then
just see what it says, and itwas pretty interesting how it um
made conclusions about ourbusiness, not exactly how we'd
say what we do but it was.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It was pretty close to accurate.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Um to an outsider looking in it would have been
accurate yeah, um, and it's alsotelling, because then you're
like oh, this is how people seeus.
Maybe we should adjust how wetalk about ourselves to that.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Speaking of that, tactic number eight is you need
to keep updated and freshcontent.
Keep in mind GPT's, looking atthe entire internet history of
you and one you want it to beaccurate.
There are things you do andthere are ways you you know show
up in the world that you didn'tused to.
So you need to make sure thatthe old stuff is gone but the
(37:00):
new stuff is frequent.
I'm going into the mode of,like somebody needs to be
generating content for you veryregularly, like there was a time
that there was like kind of dosome of it and then let it coast
.
I think we're going into aseason where we've got to have
regular people contributing tothis content and, frankly, like
(37:24):
on our end of things, we aregeared up to do that now because
it's a need that we see thatwasn't as big a need before, and
so you can get an agency to doit, if they understand you well,
or a third-party writer, or ifyou've got a good writer in your
office, him or her plussomebody who's skilled enough to
(37:44):
structure this and build itinto your website in the right
way, because it's part writingand it's also part technical
implementation on the site.
But you need to have freshstuff.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Speaking of that, which leads us to number nine
and the final one.
All the old SEO tactics stillapply as far as all those things
I told you Google kind ofinvented.
They didn't invent HTML, no,they didn't invent that.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But they did invent how to read it Times a billion
pages.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
And so structure your page, make sure your page title
at the top of the page is astrong H1, the first heading.
And then you know it's kind oflike when you're in school you
did the three-point paragraphsand you had very specific like.
My second point is this so yourtitle is your H1, then your H2s
are maybe your secondaryheadings, and then if you go
(38:33):
deeper than that, which we'rekind of advocating, that you
probably don't on most pagesYou're going down to H3, h4, and
it's just a tiered structure,it's like bullet points.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Like your outlines for high school or college
papers.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yep, make sure you're using FAQ schema.
You can.
So schema is a fancy way ofsaying.
A schema is like actually likethe structure, the makeup, the
way something is built isactually the structure, the
makeup, the way something isbuilt.
And so a schema of a databasehas all these.
It's got names over here, it'sgot email addresses over here
(39:07):
and how it all interacts withitself the schema on your
website.
You're telling Google howyou've structured this page and
there are schema snippets youcan include on the page.
Not just you have an FAQsection, but there's also you
can set separately in yourheading and in other places on
the site.
You can say I have FAQs on thispage, here is the question,
(39:29):
here's the answer and you cantell it all of these things.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You can do that.
You're probably hiring a nerdto do that.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That's nerdy stuff.
There are also tools that canhelp you with some of these
things.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
WordPress puts you in a good spot to do that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, there are like plugins or different things that
could maybe help you with that.
But make sure, if you have likee-commerce, that your product
schema is set up really well,that it knows the schema tells
it hey, this is the featuredimage.
Hey, this is the price.
Hey, this is the price.
Hey, this is the product title.
Hey, this is the description.
And that way it's not justrandom text on the page that
happens to be the title or theprice.
(40:02):
It is hey, google, this is theprice.
Hey, google, this is thedescription.
So use all of that.
Make sure you get the conciseanswers.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
We did this preemptively.
We kind of saw this coming.
We have a client who's in avery, very high-end jewelry
business and, frankly, theydon't really need to compete
locally with SEO.
They just have that.
They have such a strong brand.
But they were like, hey, thisother company, we're paying them
(40:30):
a pile of money a year and isit doing us any good?
And we're like, no, it's not.
Like they were buying the SEOpackage that a lot of you
probably are buying, which is Ablog a month or something like
that A blog a month, or hey,we'll check your keywords or
we'll write meta description.
It's like you know what that isso old and that is not even,
it's not even helpful in thealgorithms anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, it should be done.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
It's a box that should be checked Because it's
for user experience.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
But, by the way, when you have I don't know, even if
you have a big website 100 pageson your site once you've
written 100 meta descriptions.
That's done.
It's over.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
That's right, unless you have some new marketing
angle or some promotion orsomething like that.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Unless you added 10 new pages, then you've got 10
more meta descriptions to write,do it while you write the page.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's kind of like no-duh stuff.
So if you've got a nerd likeyou know taking a pound of flesh
out of you every month, or evena few hundred bucks, that's
probably a sign it's not working, because they're not thinking
about the stuff we're talkingabout now.
But we had a client that didthis gosh late last year and we
did like 50 of these pages, likeall this type of stuff we're
(41:34):
talking about.
The people also ask thecontextual, really
conversational type snippets.
We put a lot of detail to it.
We were really specific andliterally for the entire
internet.
Now this is a company that isbased in the Midwest not at all
a national company.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
They're actually in a suburb, like a small town.
With what?
50,000?
Yes, not even 50,000 people.
Suburb like a small town.
With what?
50,000?
Yes, not even 50,000 people.
Suburb, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
But they are literally ranking for the entire
internet.
Their local jeweler site is anauthority because of the way we
wrote this content.
Now, will it always be?
Probably not, because somebodyelse that's a bigger website and
frankly cares more about thatis going to outrun them on a
(42:22):
national scene, but they willvery likely be the local
authority for a long, long, longtime.
Yeah, partly because they'refirst, but also partly because
we just did it really well.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
And they did the work to answer the questions.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
They did the work to answer the questions and they
were willing to tell you whattheir hourly cost is for the
jeweler.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
you know, behind the jeweler bench, customized
jewelry and all that stuff.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
So the takeaway is that there's time for you to be
first to the game and wouldn'twe have all loved to have been
first to the Google game 20years ago?
Wouldn't we have all loved tohave discovered Bitcoin?
Well, this is your holy grailmoment of like.
I can level up here and it'snot terribly expensive.
I mean, if you have any decentad budget, you can sliver
(43:08):
something out, and this can goto that.
You want to find an expert likegood writing and somebody who
is really really objectively notinside your business so that
they know how to say oh, but theperson's probably thinking this
they're going to keep you fromfluffing and BSing and doing
crappy fluff writing.
You need somebody like that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
They need to call you out too.
They have to be able to shootstraight and say nope, that's
not specific enough, You'retrying to hide it.
Tell me more.
Tell me exactly what.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Tell me what the nail actually costs.
Yeah, you're trying to hide it.
Tell me more.
Tell me exactly what yeah?
Tell me what the nail actuallycosts, right?
Yeah, so we've used estateplanning and roofing.
Those are just really easyexamples to grab because
everybody gets them, but thisliterally applies to everything
you do.
We're doing this on our ownwebsite for the record.
And we don't even.
We don't really need to.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
We don't really need to because we don't.
Yeah, we, well, we don't.
That's not how we usually getbusiness yeah, what we want
actually is for this podcast tohelp more people.
That's why we do it absolutelyat the end of the day is we want
to help answer these questionsabout marketing so that, because
there's a lot of marketingfluff out there, if we can help
people get down to thenitty-gritty, the actual answers
, then we've done our job too soyes, we have, and hopefully
(44:16):
that's your motive at the end ofthe day, obviously, you got a
business, you have to grow, youhave to get customers, you have
to pay the bills, um.
But even if you're in, you know,on the East coast and you help
somebody in Washington, you knowsolve, you know get a clear
answer on their estate plan orhow they're, how, how, like the
right questions to ask a roofer,or or how to claim insurance or
(44:37):
whatever that might be, you'vedone a good job and and, by the
way, you've, you've increasedyour authority, you've helped
build a reputation, yeah, Um why?
Speaker 1 (44:46):
why do we want this podcast to to reach more people?
Caleb, like what?
What are we doing?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Well, uh, cause Frank and Ma frankenmaven exists to
create a world whereentrepreneurs can confidently
grow their business withoutwasting money on advertising.
And, um, that really comes frombrandon's story and the story
we've seen from a lot ofentrepreneurs, which is they've
spent thousands and thousands ofdollars not knowing whether or
not it works not knowing whetheror not it's helping to grow
(45:14):
their business.
It is.
Is my business just growing onaccident because I do good work,
or is it growing because thismarketing is actually drawing
people to me?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Which leads them to compromise their ability to
impact more people in theircommunity in their workforce, in
their family, all of the things.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, you could.
I'd rather you save the moneythat you would spend on
marketing and give everybody araise.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Absolutely.
We would rather that.
That's why we eliminate waste.
We keep the stuff that's good.
That's going to allow you to domore and we eliminate the waste
for the other stuff.
Did you know people will spend94 more times under the roof of
the small business they work forthan they will at their own
church?
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I did know that, I did know that, you did know that
, sean Copeland.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, Sean Copeland taught Caleb and I both that
Wonderful book called 94X aboutwhat happens when you bring God
into your business.
But think about ourresponsibility, even if you
don't take it to the analogy ofthe church our responsibility to
do more, have more, grow more,build more.
And it is tough the higher yougo, the steeper the climb.
But that is why we're here.
That's why this podcast mattersto us.
(46:23):
That is, the vision we have forthe world is that entrepreneurs
would not only thrive andsurvive through all the
headwinds and highs and lows,but we would step into our
calling and our purpose to bringmore impact to people and
that's how we're doing that withthis podcast.
We are seeing that permeatethrough the people we get to
(46:43):
serve directly and then throughyou indirectly, and we just love
, love, love hearing your growthstories.
I'm going to leave you withsomething I read from Robert
Louis Stevenson, and this isvery relevant to GEO as well as
it is to business and life, andthat is don't judge each day by
(47:04):
the harvest you reap, but by theseeds you plant.
We'll be back here every Mondaydoing our best to plant seeds,
and we can't wait to see andhear more about the ones you are
planting.
And that is why we're here,because marketers who can't
teach you why are just fancylies.
Have a great week.
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