March 24, 2025 • 42 mins
It's lurking... tucked into a form on your website or maybe it's a part of your sales process. We all want to know what marketing efforts are working and which are not, but one of the poorest measuring techniques is the most widely used: asking, "How did you hear about us?"
Today, Brandon and Caleb are going to show you the science and psychology behind what's wrong with such a loaded question and show you what you should be looking at instead.
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Host: Brandon Welch
Co-Host: Caleb Agee
Executive Producer: Carter Breaux
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brandon Welch (00:06):
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, brandon Welch,and I'm here with Caleb four
eyes agey.
Hey, right back at you, buddy.
You know, they say the shoesmake the man.
Caleb Agee (00:18):
Okay, well, the frames make the podcaster, I
think.
Okay.
Brandon Welch (00:20):
I like your new frames.
Caleb Agee (00:22):
I have a face for podcasts if you are listening
via the audios.
Brandon Welch (00:26):
Pull over and pull up caleb's fancy new frames
and tortoise shell wonder yeah,hey, this is the place where we
answer your real life marketingquestions so you can eliminate
waste and boom, grow yourbusiness boom and achieve the
big dream double boom I think weshould just have nate start
start working in uh boom justyeah, random sound effects into
(00:50):
the podcast yes hey, I was at,uh, a marketing class with roy
williams, the roy williams andsomebody big deal around he's.
Caleb Agee (00:59):
He's a big deal.
We we study him a lot.
The faja somebody raised theirand said it was like an open
question time how do you measurethe success of your campaigns?
And without missing a beat, helooked at them and he said most
people use data the way a drunkuses a light post for support,
not elimination, and then hejust let it sit there.
(01:19):
And of course the guy who askedthe question is like what the
heck does that mean?
Right, and he was quoting theScottish poet.
And of course the guy who askedthe question is like what the
heck does that mean?
Right and um, he was quotingthe Scottish poet.
I looked it up, cause I need toAndrew Lang, cause we're going
to give him credit for this.
Um, but what Roy was pointinghis finger at is our weakness,
our confirmation bias.
(01:40):
That happens when we try to bea small business, marketers
slash statisticians and theslash voters slash yeah,
political experts slash.
Yeah and um it's.
It's just that we always have abias of self-confirming and
(02:01):
that drunk um doesn't use thelight post to be illuminated.
He doesn't.
He's not trying to look at thestreet in all of its glory.
What he's doing is he's justleaning on it because he needs
some support for his current.
Brandon Welch (02:12):
It feels good to find data to confirm your
suspicions yes, or insecurities,or whatever Feels good to be
right.
Caleb Agee (02:20):
I guess yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:21):
Yeah, there's a whole nother thing I've actually
it's.
I didn't plan on talking aboutthis, but I've been doing quite
a bit of study on confirmationbias.
It is wild how, uh,neurologically wired, we are to
do that.
Caleb Agee (02:35):
Yeah, um, I've been looking for studies to I've been
doing a lot of research to tomake sure I can prove that
confirmation bias is real.
So I asked chat GPT cheat GPT.
Brandon Welch (02:47):
I said, hey, find me all the reasons why this is
right.
It's actually a reallydangerous tool for that.
Caleb Agee (02:54):
It really is.
So, in reality, as marketers,we're all wondering you know,
how do we know this thing isworking?
We're spending money in allkinds of different places and
you want to know what's working,you want to know why it's
working and you want to rewardwhat is working, and you're
writing the checks and take themoney away from what isn't
(03:16):
working, right that?
makes sense.
Right, Um, you wouldn't want to,you know, throw good money
after bad, Um, but the way wealways do that, and I promise
you somebody listening to thispodcast it's hanging out in
their sales process somewhere-oh, this has happened today.
It's tucked into a formsomewhere on your website and
(03:37):
it's just lurking there waitingfor your customers, and it is
asking Nobody from Frankenmavenwould do this?
Yeah, it is asking how did youhear about us?
How did you hear about us?
Brandon Welch (03:46):
The infamous question Seems perfectly
reasonable.
Caleb Agee (03:48):
Yeah, it seems like a fair question, but we're going
to talk about why that maybeit's perfectly unreasonable,
isn't the right thing to ask?
Brandon Welch (04:01):
What you need to know is it about your business?
Relying on introspection ofhuman beings is just
psychologically, neurologicallyand emotionally impossible, and
I would love for it to be true.
Trust me, my job would havebeen a gazillion times easier
over the years.
Our job would be a gazilliontimes easier over the years
(04:23):
because we would just ask peopleand they would tell us and we
would do that whole eliminationKey point we are here to
eliminate waste in advertisingright.
Caleb Agee (04:32):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (04:33):
That's like an entire.
That's in our freaking visionand mission statement yes, to
help entrepreneurs grow withoutwasting money on advertising.
So this is going to sound verycontrary to a lot of people
listening.
We're going to get some hatemail on this.
I know we are and I can't wait.
But we're doing it because welove you and we want you to make
(04:53):
decisions off of goodinformation, not bad information
.
We want you to grow, we wantyou to conquer all these things.
So at a high level, we're goingto go into the weeds enough to
articulate some people that areway smarter than me and you,
yeah.
Caleb Agee (05:12):
Not hard to find.
Brandon Welch (05:13):
This is not an opinion.
This has been repeated over andover and over in university
studies and advertising scienceat large has tried to ask this
and figure this out for a longtime and I'm just going to say
as a preface big brands, bigbrands, like people who have
millions of dollars at stake.
They don't ask that question,they use the other things we're
(05:35):
going to talk about at the endof this um.
So if you want to be like smartbig brand advertisers and we
all do right, um, you're notgoing to ask how did you hear
about it, you're going to dosome other things.
Um, there are three bigproblems with it memory bias uh
is the biggest um.
Customers struggle toaccurately recall specific touch
(05:58):
points that led them topurchase uh to any purchase
decision.
Um.
The second is that it's anoversimplification of a complex
journey the path to purchasing,especially large ticket items,
and we try to think of it asdecisions are made in this
vacuum and it's just like astimulus response thing.
It is just way more complexthan that.
Caleb Agee (06:18):
Yeah, I think Google tried to do.
They called it the zero momentof truth or something like that.
They tried to emphasize thatfinal moment.
Yes, but that's not the onlymoment.
Yes.
You know it might be the lastmoment, but it's not the moment.
Brandon Welch (06:31):
Two of the larger like advertising platforms in
the world, like Google would beone and.
Comscore, who studies likeconsumer behavior would be
another.
Like consumer behavior would beanother.
They themselves, like they,have the most to gain, and
probably Google especially hasthe most to gain, because almost
everybody will say Google.
Caleb Agee (06:51):
I found you online.
Brandon Welch (06:52):
And they came out with a book like a decade or
more ago.
We cite it in the MavenMarketer and they're like it's
actually not one thing, it'snever one thing.
At the time it was like eightor nine things.
I've heard data that's morelike 12 to 15 things that
contribute that they canscientifically measure.
But every neuroscientist willadmit we don't know.
It's a very complex web ofunconscious.
(07:14):
We're going to talk aboutunconscious thought today.
The third is socialdesirability bias.
Caleb Agee (07:20):
This one cracks me up, because when you ask
somebody to help you, they wantto give you the information that
they think is the most helpfulfor you.
Yeah.
So they change their answer tohelp you.
They'll be like oh well, Iheard you, maybe they searched
on Google.
They'll be like well, I'veheard your TV ad.
(07:42):
Yeah.
And they'll try to give creditto the thing that they think
maybe you're spending the mostmoney on, or they think that you
want to validate, or that makesthem look the most
sophisticated.
Brandon Welch (07:50):
Yes, Well I definitely didn't see you on a
billboard or I definitely didn'twatch you on television last
night, yeah, I know, so theyprovide answers.
We, we all do this, we're notmaking big bad wolves out of
everybody, but we believe aremore acceptable or favorable.
And I don't want to tell peopleI was scrolling on Facebook so
I may not say that, right, butthe truth is way before that.
(08:10):
You just don't remember.
At least 90% of this happens inunconscious thought and
everybody is losing their mindsright now because they're going
oh, but how do I figure this out?
And we have clients that havespent gazillions of dollars on.
That's a real number, right?
Caleb Agee (08:27):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (08:27):
Gazillions on TV and people come in and swear
that they have heard them on theradio and they've never spent
one penny on the radio right Yep.
This happens all the time in ourenvironment.
So we're doing our best tobreak this down and just give it
to you in a way you can trustand act on.
And a way you can trust and acton.
And there is a better answer.
We're going to get to thatshortly.
But hey, let's talk about thepeople that are smarter than us,
that are going to confirm ourbias.
(08:52):
Richard Nisbet, if you want tolook him up, and Timothy DeCamp.
Timothy DeCamp Wilson did astudy called Telling More Than
we Can Know.
Landmark study demonstratedthat people often fabricate
explanations for their ownbehaviors without realizing it.
They got some funding from theUniversity of Michigan to do
this and the big takeaway isthat people confabulate
(09:16):
Confabulate.
It's definitely smarter than us.
Caleb Agee (09:17):
It's definitely smarter.
That's a $9 word, right therethey confabulate reasons for
their actions.
Brandon Welch (09:23):
Nisbet and Wilson found that when asked to
explain their choices orbehaviors, people often provide
plausible but inaccurateexplanations.
They are unaware of the actualfactors influencing their
decisions.
Instead, they construct a posthoc rationalization based on
what seems to be reasonable, soessentially what sounds good,
right.
Caleb Agee (09:42):
What sounds right.
You don't know your own trainof thought that led you to the
decision that you made, and thenyou try to reverse engineer it
when somebody asks you at theend yes, and you're going to do
it inaccurately because youcannot account for all of the
factors that influenced yourdecision up to that point.
Brandon Welch (10:02):
You know those late night show guys that go up,
they send somebody out on thestreets and they ask people
questions and they make themlook really stupid because the
people you know, on the TVaudience side, we can see
exactly what's going on withthese people, or don't know in
the moment.
Well, they did the same sort ofthing.
Here's an example from thestudy.
They showed them two differentpairs of nylon stockings of all
(10:24):
things right and they saidchoose the one that has the best
quality.
Unbeknownst to the participantsin the study, all of the
stockings were actuallyidentical.
However, all of them provided adetailed justification for why
they chose one set of stockingsover the other, often mentioning
texture or color factors thatweren't actually different when
they showed them.
(10:44):
And it just demonstrateseverybody's instant ability to
come up with a very convincingstory as to why they can justify
something.
I know this because I do it allthe time.
I want my ideas to be right andI'm pretty good at storytelling
, so you've been warned.
So we are unaware of subtledifferences in our decisions.
The big things we can remember.
(11:05):
We can remember where we werewhen somebody died or we got
really good or really bad news.
We can remember you know whatthe weather was like and what.
You know what was on the radiowhen really defining emotional
moments happen in our lives, butwhen they're when they're
essentially happening in theunconscious things that wouldn't
otherwise warrant the synapticfiring that creates long-term
(11:25):
memory.
We go back and we look in thatcorner.
We don't realize we do this,but there's not enough detail
stuck in the brain to evenfabricate something, so we just
do it.
Caleb Agee (11:35):
We just go.
Brandon Welch (11:35):
we go off what we think, or maybe what we think
we would do in that moment, butwe were very, very inaccurate at
doing that.
Caleb Agee (11:41):
That's right.
Brandon Welch (11:43):
So that was one study, so here's another one by
Michael Gazzaniga.
Caleb Agee (11:48):
Okay, you nailed it yeah.
Brandon Welch (11:52):
I read this stuff all the time.
Yeah, totally didn't look thisup this week.
Actually, there are a few inhere that we're referencing that
I did some pretty deep researchon when we wrote the Maven
Marketer.
Caleb Agee (12:03):
Yeah, I was mostly talking about the name.
It's hard to get other people'snames right.
Brandon Welch (12:07):
Gazzaniga Sounds like Italian dish, I'll have the
Gazzaniga.
Yeah, he studied the splitbrain to show how the left
hemisphere creates explanationsfor actions that are actually
controlled in the righthemisphere, demonstrating how we
rationalize unconsciousinfluences.
We weren't planning on talkingabout brain lateralization today
(12:27):
, but you should know that inthe 80s, dr Richard Sperry
discovered that we have anddemonstrated there are two
working hemispheres of the brainand they're responsible for two
very different functions.
Tell us about that, dr Sperry.
Caleb Agee (12:58):
I was thinking about shoes after Dr Sperry
administrative side of yourbrain working, and so those two
paired together make you a verycomplex individual.
But what this, what Michael'sstudy found is that your right
brain does this creativethinking Pattern finding it
doesn't even know.
Chaotic, it's chaotic, it'scrazy.
Brandon Welch (13:19):
It's art, it's music, it's all these things
that are happening in that sideof your brain, just like you had
no idea you were going to thinkabout tennis shoes 40 seconds
ago when I said dr richardsperry, and your brain went off
on this.
Yeah, I wonder if he wasrelated to the sperry family
yeah, the sperry fortune.
Caleb Agee (13:35):
I was like as he found out that there's a left
and a right side of your brainand a left and a right foot yeah
so then he started a shoecompany, and that's literally
where I went in my brain.
See that I was so distracted Inreal time.
Brandon Welch (13:45):
that is what your brain is constantly doing, by
the way, even while you sleep.
Caleb Agee (13:49):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (13:50):
Your left brain deals in finite details, black
and white logic.
Caleb Agee (13:55):
Okay.
Brandon Welch (13:56):
Yeah, and it's the thing that controls a lot of
your motor functions.
So when you go to explainsomething, it's trying to make
sense of whatever pattern thatthe right has fed it.
But the right has no ability toactually fully fabricate or put
in linear fashion that can becommunicated.
It's a chaotic thing.
That's why you think ofsomebody who's an artist or a
(14:17):
musician or maybe a reallytalented athlete, and you try to
ask them how do you do?
Caleb Agee (14:21):
what you they don't know, yeah, the right brain is
just on go listen to anycommentary album uh by an artist
, you know, and they're, they'relike, yeah, we were um just
sitting in the studio one dayand and dave was, he was just
playing this line and againstthe jukebox and I said, hey, man
, don't rock the jukebox, yeahit's like and then boom, you got
(14:42):
a song and obviously there werea hundred more things that
happened for that song to come.
Brandon Welch (14:46):
They make it sound like it's simple I just
need to go sit.
Caleb Agee (14:49):
But they're trying to rationalize somebody asked
him a question, left brain'sshowing up trying to answer a
right brain question and it'sjust not possible there's also
when you ask a child.
Brandon Welch (14:57):
I've learned this as a dad why?
Caleb Agee (14:59):
did?
Did you do that?
Brandon Welch (14:59):
They don't know they don't know, they don't know
.
That's a horrible question.
Caleb Agee (15:02):
I'm so bad at it.
Brandon Welch (15:03):
I'm bad at that too.
Yeah, what were you?
Why Give me your logic?
And they're like I didn't haveany logic.
It just seemed like the rightthing to do, just felt good.
So there's your right.
Brain is processing things thatyou can't even construct into
useful thought that can betransferred to another human
(15:26):
being, maybe much less even yourown understanding.
Caleb Agee (15:30):
Speaking of kind of the automatic thing we're
talking about with our kids,john Barg studied cognitive
psychology and the automaticitythat's a good word.
Yeah, there's another, that's$13.
Brandon Welch (15:40):
That's a good word.
Yeah, there's another, that's$13.
Caleb Agee (15:42):
That's going to cost you.
Basically, it showed how muchof our behavior is driven by
automatic unconscious processes.
Yes, so sometimes I think ifyou ask an adult, why did you do
that, they also don't know.
Brandon Welch (15:56):
Here's some more proof.
Yeah, did you know that, as aperson living in American pop
culture, you know the betterpart of hundreds of songs?
I think the stat is actuallywell into a thousand songs that
you never, ever, ever intendedto learn.
Caleb Agee (16:12):
Yeah, my dad texted my brother and I about a band,
just super obscure brand, nobodyknows them from our childhood,
and he was like hey, what wasclose?
Uh, no less less known thanthat even.
But he was like, hey, what wasthat band?
And we pulled it up and then he, uh, he was like, oh yeah,
that's it.
My brother remembered pulled upsome of the songs I knew every
(16:35):
single word Haven't heard it in20 years?
Yeah, easily.
Yes, every single word.
Brandon Welch (16:39):
Yes, did you ever intend to learn the State Farm
jingle?
No, like a good neighbor.
Caleb Agee (16:46):
Well, we were doing the Mario Prove my point.
Oh yeah, mario, just a minute,we were just playing it before
we hit record.
Brandon Welch (16:51):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (16:51):
And watching the guys that can play it on guitar
really well.
Brandon Welch (16:54):
But I need some confirmation bias.
Like a good neighbor.
Caleb Agee (16:56):
Yeah, stay Farm is there Okay?
Brandon Welch (16:58):
thank you.
Caleb Agee (16:59):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (16:59):
Mario so there are a gazillion examples of you
doing this in a day Like youjust do that.
You could smell perfume that waslike your grandmother's perfume
, that you haven't seen in 30years because she's been gone,
and you instantly have a floodof emotions that come back to
you.
You instantly have a flood ofemotions that come back to you
and you could have neverexplained or felt those again if
(17:21):
it wasn't for that right brainunconscious automaticity that
John Barg studied.
Also.
(17:42):
Antonio Damasio talked aboutthe somatic marker hypothesis,
which is how emotions influencedecision making and suggests
that much of our reasoning isguided by unconscious emotional
signals, our limbic system.
This goes way back to childhood, before you could even talk or
understand math or words orreading.
And these things that happen toyou environmental things, good,
bad, somewhere in between,sensory-based things create
patterns in your brain and itreally at its core.
(18:03):
It's a, a survival mechanism.
It helps us avoid danger.
Yeah, helps us know like badsmells versus good smells, and
and what are well, and it's evendown to what am I going to
waste calories on?
Caleb Agee (18:14):
yes, it costs.
That computer you have inside,you know, in between your ears,
takes power and your body'sliterally thinking what should I
spend those calories on today?
And it's trying to cancel out,it's trying to be as energy
efficient as it possibly can beand that's the unconscious,
automatic thing that's happening.
Brandon Welch (18:34):
If you want to read more about that.
We didn't put it in here today,but that's actually a
fascinating study.
It actually informs a lot ofthings we should be doing in
advertising, which is don'twaste people's time, help them
thrive or survive, and if you'renot doing that, shut up um get
you a copy of the Maven market,or go to the back resources.
There's a study that we uh linkto in there, uh, or get the
(18:55):
Kindle version and uh read moreabout that.
So, uh, we're making, we'remaking you more smarter, okay,
yes, uh, last thing, this one,this one is specifically from
the journal of targeting,measurement and analysis and
marketing.
Did you know there's a journalfor targeting and measurement
analysis?
Caleb Agee (19:11):
Of course, Uh, I can't tell you how I knew that,
but I but I do.
Brandon Welch (19:15):
This one in the early 2000s, estimating
advertising half-life and datainterval bias.
Now that is nerd talk and we'renot going to keep you there,
mm-hmm.
But Monash University Facultyof Business and Economics these
people study what makesbusinesses grow, and all of that
sort of stuff concluded thatwhile advertising has a
(19:36):
measurable effect on consumerbehavior this isn't a college,
okay, this is a collegiate likepeer-reviewed study While
advertising has a measurableeffect on consumer behavior a
measurable effect it operates ina way that is not necessarily
linked to explicit memory recall.
Instead, advertising worksthrough ad stock, a cumulative
(19:57):
decaying effect, where pastexposures continue to influence
purchase decisions long afterthe ad itself has been forgotten
.
Think about that.
You can remember what the dangad was, what?
it said Now this is whererepeating characters becomes
such a useful tool Repeatingcharacters and slogans and
jingles and colors and brandlike elements, right Brand voice
(20:23):
.
That helps people remember yourcampaign.
Total side rant you want tocreate campaigns, not ads, but
this is saying the individual ad, the thing that said the
whatever thing.
You don't remember where youwere, what happened, what
channel it was, on what media itwas.
Even on right.
People will swear they saw youin a magazine.
You were never in right.
Caleb Agee (20:41):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (20:43):
But you do retain a feeling and a familiarity,
much like walking into a room ofpeople you haven't seen for a
very long time, or maybe youdon't remember who they are, or
maybe you're church.
You don't know themindividually, but you get a feel
for them.
Same sort of thing.
It does influence the purchasedecision, it influences
preference, even though the aditself is a figment of it's
(21:05):
crazy, the past it's.
Caleb Agee (21:06):
I like that ad stock language.
It's like an impression of yourbrand, not the ad itself, but
the impression of it.
It's the how it made you feelyes, lasts a lot longer than the
ad itself.
And um, um.
And then I guess, by this logic, something I saw when I was 10
years old is still affecting mypurchasing decisions today,
(21:28):
which is wild to think about it,and it could be for good or for
not, right, yeah?
Brandon Welch (21:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Caleb Agee (21:36):
And there are probably ads I saw back then
blockbuster ads that aren't ontoday, but they affect how I
think about.
I don't know, I'm makingsomething up, something random
up, but affect how I think aboutmovie purchases today.
Oh sure, Whether I realize itor not.
Brandon Welch (21:49):
Yeah, or cars, or yeah, think about big brands
Like.
Think about Oldsmobile.
Caleb Agee (21:53):
I'm thinking of brands that aren't around
anymore.
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (22:02):
Are they still affecting us today in because of
the advertising they did backthen, the one I use in the book
a lot is coke and pepsi, and ithas a heck of a lot more to do,
not with the ads themselves, butwhat kind of household you grew
up in, right?
Um, my grandma was a was acoca-cola household and
therefore, I will always be acoca-cola guy, even though I
don't drink soda yeah, we were apepsi mountain dew house, so we
would choose restaurants.
Caleb Agee (22:20):
that Pepsi Mountain Dew house, so we would choose
restaurants.
That's what's wrong with you.
We would choose restaurantsbased on whether they had.
Pepsi products or not.
Yep, I wondered all this time.
That's, that's why we you knowwe have when we have conflict,
we know the root of all of it.
So, pepsi, hey, all of this isthe reasons we're trying to
(22:45):
confirm our bias.
Uh no, I'm just kidding this.
This is real science.
Um, on why you shouldn't beasking how did you hear about us
?
And um, some of you literallythink about that form on your
website, where you ask it alongthe customer's journey or or at
the end of your sales process,you say now, how did you hear
about us?
And give us?
You give them a check, checkboxes, or maybe you just leave
it as an open question and theytype it in Um, well, how the
heck am I going to know what?
(23:05):
yeah.
Brandon Welch (23:06):
Which advertising to keep doing right?
It's the old adage Half myadvertising is wasted, I just
don't know which half.
Caleb Agee (23:11):
Yeah, yes, it's adage, I like that.
Brandon Welch (23:14):
So hey question when did you first hear Twinkle,
twinkle Little Star?
Caleb Agee (23:20):
I don't know.
My, that was probably my That'dbe from somewhere.
Yeah, I can't.
Brandon Welch (23:25):
I don't know, Don't give credit to the nursery
school at church, or your momor your grandma or your dad or
whatever.
Caleb Agee (23:31):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (23:35):
What radio station did you first hear Sweet
Home Alabama on.
Caleb Agee (23:38):
Hmm, I have no clue.
Brandon Welch (23:45):
Could you possibly know that?
No, now, if you ask a lot ofpeople, they'd probably think oh
well, my dad listened to youknow 102.5 or something, so it's
probably that, and theyprobably without somebody.
Yep, nobody, nobody knows that,right?
Yeah, this, this is my favoritething to ask people when you
you pull to McDonald's in themorning I actually got to do
(24:06):
some of McDonald's media buys atone point.
It was fascinating how theythought about it.
But you pull up, you get yoursausage of nothing and they're
like we just have one questionwhen did you hear about us?
And it's like the properresponse to that would be which
time?
Yeah, which time are youtalking about?
Caleb Agee (24:25):
Well, when you pull up to McDonald's, you know what
they say first Welcome back.
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (24:29):
Welcome back Right Strong case for the
yesterday customer.
Caleb Agee (24:33):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (24:33):
But just think about a world where somebody
hadn't been to McDonald's andthere's a lot of homeschool kids
that never have been there, I'msure, and they're going.
How'd you hear about us?
And everybody's like I don'tknow.
That's a, that's like the most.
That'd be the dumbest questionto ask, right, yeah, um, I
happen to know that the mediabuyers for mcdonald's have a
(24:54):
formula that between the hoursof 10 pm and 6 am, they want you
to hear their TV ad for, um,you know, pancakes, or?
sausage whatever in the morningor while you're falling asleep.
Yep, so that when you wake upand you have that hunger, that's
like one of your first, mostrecent stimulus.
Caleb Agee (25:12):
Grab a breakfast burrito on the way.
Brandon Welch (25:13):
They also want you to hear the radio ad when
you're pulling out of the garage, right, and they want you to
see a billboard on the way.
And now I'm sure this was 10 or15 years ago now I'm sure they
have a Instagram Facebookcomponent to that.
And it's like stop trying tosource your advertising, and
what I kind of came to theconclusion of when I was doing
this and honestly wrestling withthis myself as a business owner
(25:37):
and in the early days ofadvertising for my family's
company, like we would ask thisquestion, and I realized that I
was trying to use confirmationbias to figure out who to fire.
And the truth is, any one ofthe multiple medias I was using
could have worked, but I wouldyou know wait three months.
But I haven't heard anybody sayanything about that.
(25:58):
So yeah.
I don't think it works.
We had somebody come in hereRemember this person that came
in here for a case study or fora lunch and learn thing and she
was like radio doesn't work.
I already tried that and we'relike tell us more.
Caleb Agee (26:11):
When did you try it?
Brandon Welch (26:11):
Yeah, Well, I ran it for two weeks and nobody
came in, nobody talked about it.
Right, like oh, but Right, butbreak this down.
You could be the crappiestradio station in your town, you
could be the smallest radiostation there are still people
that show up and listen to thatevery day or Billboard, or the
smallest whatever.
(26:32):
And just think about, there areat least thousands, if not tens
of thousands, of people exposedto even the smallest of
stations at a medium-sizedmarket.
And so you just think, well,have all 10,000 of those people
come around to buying from meand or their friends and family?
(26:52):
And it's like no, then whywould you stop?
Like well, I don't know ifthey're the right people, well,
they're human beings, right?
Caleb Agee (26:59):
On the Younger Pop pop channel.
Brandon Welch (27:02):
You're probably not going to advertise um things
that homeowners would need orright like retirement services
concrete foundation repairservice yeah to the 18 to 24
year olds, because they don'tlikely have a house there's a
station in town that everybodyused to listen to in high school
.
Power 96.5.
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (27:22):
We all talk about it and I wouldn't buy on that
station at least as it was backthen for something that you need
when you retire or as ahomeowner or whatever.
Brandon Welch (27:34):
Now would it still work?
Yeah, it would still work.
Yeah, in time it would work.
Add stock it.
Just there's a little bitbetter decision to make there,
right?
So there's some demographic likeit's kind of a secondary
thought, and we're getting offtrack, but what we're saying is
just keep making noise to thosepeople and everybody's waiting
for.
Well, how do I measure it?
Yep, we're talking largelyabout tomorrow marketing.
(27:56):
You can measure search engineperformance in a very short
window.
Yes, In a slightly longerwindow.
You can measure really targeteddigital like Facebook ads.
Right, Mm-hmm.
At least for their directresponse, lead generation or
e-commerce ability.
Right, you can say I spent$1,000.
How many transactions did I get?
That data is pretty reliable.
But when it comes toinfluencing and intercepting
(28:20):
people when they're not thinkingor trying to actively purchase,
which is what we call thetomorrow customer, which is the
way that other studies prove,that is the best way to grow a
profitable company.
Caleb Agee (28:30):
It should be two-thirds at least of your
marketing budget.
So it's the lion's share.
This is the one you're askingabout.
Brandon Welch (28:39):
It's 70-30, basically.
Yeah, the one you're askingabout it's 70-30,.
Basically is, if we're tryingto become known, liked and
trusted and become the preferredprovider in our market or our
industry, here's seven thingsthat you can do.
We call these the seven clues.
Along the way, we're takingthese out of the tomorrow
marketing strategy chapter.
I think it's the most valuablechapter in the book.
I agree Because it brings somuch clarity to a very
(29:04):
historically unclear thing andsomething that's been, I think,
misrepresented by mediasalespeople.
So, when you're trying to growyour brand, steal market share,
get a bigger piece of the pie,grow faster than you have been.
Here's seven things you want tolook at.
One I will, almost alwayswithin six to twelve months
after running a good starting, agood campaign, or even a
(29:26):
mediocre campaign frankly I willsee a correlation of direct
traffic and organic trafficincreasing at the same time.
Yeah, what that is an indicatorof is people recalling your name
, instead of going to Google andsaying show me the list of all
roofers in the area, orattorneys, or whatever.
So Google Analytics, ga4, anypunk could set this up for you
(29:52):
and you would at least have thebasic data we're talking about.
You go to the user acquisitiontab and you just look at did
they come from organic search?
Did they come from directtraffic?
Which means they most likelyjust put your URL in.
Look at a really wide window foryour date, your timeline, yep
12 months if you want you know,generally web traffic if you've
(30:13):
done nothing to affect it or ifyour brand isn't growing, stays
the same or declines becausesomebody else is stealing it.
But I'm oversimplifying this.
But I think in a six to 12month window you could start to
see it.
If as long as you're not like,you can definitely see it year
over year, but as long as you'renot a really seasonal business.
So don't go comparing Decembertraffic for a summer home
(30:36):
improvement business for asummer product or a boat
dealership or something likethat, but in the same time
period, if all other things arethe same.
And one other small caveat ifGoogle hasn't made any major
changes to the competitivelandscape or the algorithm, that
would have reduced your organictraffic, you will usually see
this trend, like when you seeLyft and I'm talking 5% to 10%
(30:59):
is reasonable.
Year over year we start seeingit in the 30%, 40%, 50% and it's
like oh wow, that brand isgrowing, because most of you
growing a business have at leasta few years of data.
You've had a decent websitebuilt for you, so increase
direct website traffic and brandsearches via organic yeah.
(31:19):
You can also go to Google SearchConsole.
It's super nerdy Grab a nerdand just grab via organic.
Yeah, you can also go to Googlesearch console.
Caleb Agee (31:23):
It's super nerdy.
Grab a nerd and just grab anerd.
Brandon Welch (31:24):
Grab the major marketer and say show me if this
is happening.
Caleb Agee (31:27):
Second clue along the way you'll see decreased
lead cost and what happens thereis tomorrow marketing impacts
the overall picture of what'sappears to be today marketing
right, so you'll watch your leadgeneration, however you're
doing that.
It could be google, facebook,instagram, it could be through
(31:52):
you know lead aggregate sources.
You could watch it in all theseareas, but you'll watch your
cost go down because theyalready know about you.
Yes, whether they they clickedon the ad and you paid for it.
Brandon Welch (32:04):
You may have to pay ten dollars for that you
still have to pay an extra.
Caleb Agee (32:07):
Yeah but more often than not those people are
converting after the click.
Brandon Welch (32:12):
Yes, to we.
We laid this out, this veryvery thing, like a real life,
statistical, no numbers lyingcase study.
In last week's episode we hadone roofer that was getting a
$313 cost per lead and onegetting 72 in very similar next
door to door markets, verysimilar companies, same
everything, same budgets.
(32:32):
In the whole deal, the roofergetting the lower lead costs had
just been doing tomorrowmarketing, yeah.
Caleb Agee (32:40):
And a big thing here is somebody searched you know
they searched roofer near me,but you had that impression, you
had that stock inside of theirmind and then they chose you,
the ad stock, right.
They chose you instead of theother two, three, four on the
page.
Yes, and that's what drives thecost down.
Brandon Welch (33:00):
So that's about the known factor, like direct
traffic, and then the decreasedlead cost.
That's generally because theyknow you more and they're just
going to you directly instead ofgoing more often through a paid
source.
It's also about the trust andlike factor.
When people trust you more,guess what?
They'll come to your websiteand instead of thinking about it
(33:21):
more often.
Caleb Agee (33:26):
They will take action.
Just fill it out.
They're not in research mode.
Brandon Welch (33:28):
They are in I want you mode.
Yes, Most of the most of thenon-branded, non-well
established I shouldn't say umnon-tomorrow marketing clients
that we inherit or take on, cometo us with a three to 5%
conversion rate on their websiteand that would be considered
average for most industries.
Like 5% of the traffic, 5 outof 100 are actually taking the
next step.
Caleb Agee (33:48):
A lot of places would say that's really good.
Brandon Welch (33:50):
Fast forward a few years.
Anybody who's doing the planwe're talking about, it's 15 to
20.
The ones that we've been doingthis for a while with easily in
the 30s and that's because theentire market knows who they are
.
They already came there becausethey believe in them and they
think they sound like a goodcompany to work with.
That is the biggest incrementalincrease in efficiency and
(34:11):
therefore profit and thereforeriches.
That thing right there we justtalked about, that's what's
making millionaires with theMaven method.
Fun fact, we almost called theMaven marketer the Maven method.
That's right.
Fun fact, we almost called theMaven marketer the Maven
millionaire.
Yeah.
I remember that I had severalpeople trying to tell me that
was a good idea and I didn'tlike it.
Yeah, so I went and foundconfirmation bias as a bad idea.
Caleb Agee (34:32):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (34:32):
Caleb was like that's a dumb name.
You shouldn't do that.
Anyway but I think you, I thinkit's true.
Yeah, it's because so manymillionaires had come out of
that process.
Caleb Agee (34:41):
Yeah, that's right.
That was number three higherconversion rates on your website
.
Number four is competitorschasing you.
You will watch and it'll beannoying to some of you, it'll
be maybe borderline, make yourface red, get you a little angry
, but they will copy youramazing ads.
(35:04):
They will copy your productoffering.
They will copy.
I've seen them copy colors howyou, yeah, your brand, your logo
will start to look the same and, outside of copyright laws
assuming they were a percentageaway enough to not be completely
stealing from you they will dothat because what you are doing
(35:25):
is working.
Brandon Welch (35:26):
Yes, and they're hearing it on the sales pitch,
they're seeing theirappointments go down, they're
seeing themselves lose moredeals or conversations to you,
and so they're like, oh, they'readvertising that TV.
Caleb Agee (35:37):
I better do it the same.
They'll buy the billboardacross the street from your
billboard.
Brandon Welch (35:40):
Man, I have a really, really solid example of
this.
I don't want to say thecompany's names, but literally
this annoying, just like what'sthe word.
I'm a cringy competitor of oneof our big law firms.
Caleb Agee (35:57):
Clients yeah.
Brandon Welch (35:59):
Does the?
They tried to rip it and thething is let them do it.
The name almost sounds the same.
They ripped off the name.
They ripped off.
Yeah, actually she's had threeor four people in her town, but
what you have to do is takethings and make them.
Caleb Agee (36:13):
if that happens, by the way, that's one that is a
signal that your marketing isworking.
That's the point we're makinghere Mostly good working.
Brandon Welch (36:19):
That's.
That's the point we're makinghere.
Caleb Agee (36:20):
That is mostly good news.
It's mostly good, but you alsohave to make sure you have
things inside of your marketingthat make that nobody could copy
things that are special to you,that make you completely
different yeah, so, um, yeah, wetry to make sure that's baked
in.
Brandon Welch (36:32):
So competitors chasing you you're gonna hear it
um more repeat and referralbusiness.
So, uh, literally you'll belike, oh, my repeat and referral
business is up and it's likewhat's happening is your past
customers are in that audiencethat you are winning over and
and your.
Your brand is just becomingmore of a of a household thing
(36:52):
like a market awareness thing.
And that also prompts pastcustomers.
They're not immune to your adjust because they've already
done business with you.
Caleb Agee (36:59):
They've become not tomorrow customers, but
yesterday customers.
Brandon Welch (37:02):
Use this confirmation bias thing in
reverse.
People love to be the personthat refers good people.
I got a guy.
I got a guy.
Oh, you should go to so-and-so,they're awesome.
Yeah, and some people will evenrefer you, not ever having used
you.
This happens to Randy and Deeall the time.
Caleb Agee (37:22):
Oh, you should call that Randy and Dee.
They're good people.
It's like they've never metthem ever.
Brandon Welch (37:24):
And they are good people, but you don't know that
.
They just had really good adpeople, so more repeat referral
business.
If you see that going up, youcan know that your marketing is
working.
Caleb Agee (37:34):
Yeah, higher and easier sales closing ratios.
You will watch that sales call,uh, or that appointment or
whatever.
However you close the deal,you'll watch your close rates go
up.
Doesn't matter whichsalesperson you're talking about
.
It doesn't matter if it, if, ifyou're in your ads yeah and you
go to the sales appointment,you'll watch that skyrocket.
(37:55):
But even without that you willwatch your sales close.
Ratios just climb over timebecause people trust you before
you ever come to their house orbefore they ever have that call
with you.
Brandon Welch (38:06):
I had a client in a year and a half when they
started.
Their lowest closing sales guywas doing about 35%, which was
meh.
Their highest closing sales guywas doing about 60%, which is
meh or which is good.
Sorry, it's better than average, but the blended average was
like 45-50% right Year and ahalf later.
(38:28):
The team average was 58%.
The lowest guy came up, thehighest guy even got higher and
they're closing 58% Wild.
Caleb Agee (38:40):
Wild, wild, wild.
Do the math in your business.
Brandon Welch (38:43):
You watch the top line change and what's crazy if
you do the campaigns like wetaught you how to do last week
and in like most of the episodeswe talk about here.
If you do that, you go to thefront door or they come into
your place.
Your prospects will startrepeating your ads.
Oh, are you going to do thatthing?
Are you going to say that thing?
Show me about the, you know, dguarantee or whatever.
Or the whistle, your jingle, orwhatever.
(39:07):
It's working, they're doing itFor sure.
That's right.
So last one, that's what we allwant Drum roll, please.
Faster growth rate annually.
You may see this in your firstyear.
You'll definitely see it inyears like two and a half,
through Forever, forever.
Caleb Agee (39:27):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (39:27):
You're going to start growing faster than you
have Again, all other thingsbeing the same.
Let's assume you didn't buy anew location or you didn't do
something else, add a newproduct line or something.
But if you're just doing thesame things you've always done
and then you start adding thiscomponent to your marketing,
where people know, like andtrust you before the sale your
company will grow faster than itdid before.
Uh, not like, not like comparedto years one and two, when
(39:50):
everything is growth, but justyour average.
Like people that have come tous with you know, 10 year old
businesses, we haven't grownthis fast since our first second
year, so it can be easily inthe 30, 40%, 50% range for
service companies.
So lots of getting in the weedsthere.
What are we talking about?
(40:14):
Measuring your marketing is avery complex emotional equation.
There are very few, there areno exact scientific ways to
measure it, but there are veryfew ways even after that that
give you a full picture.
But the worst possible one isintrospection, humans'
introspection.
(40:34):
We are way more complex than weeven understand.
This is why we havepsychiatrists.
This is why people go to schoolfor 20 years to try to have
some sort of fathom about why wedo the things we do, but we're
just simply not wired to be ableto tell you why we made a
purchase decision.
Caleb Agee (40:52):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (40:53):
We're just not Not reliably, not reliably, not
consistently, yeah.
Second point long-term payoffscan't be measured in a
short-term window.
What you're doing today willpay dividends for months and
years past today, if you mustmeasure something, if your
(41:14):
accountant is going but I gottasee the data use the seven clues
along the way to get a betterfeel, to get more accurate, real
data about what's happening.
And, uh, ultimately, stopasking how did you hear about us
?
And just make sure people did,make sure they did hear about
you.
We'll look for reasons to stopmaking noise.
(41:35):
Just keep making noise and theywill have heard about you.
Doesn't matter where.
Sound bounces off the walls,emotions bounce from human to
human.
Just keep making noise.
We'll be back here every Mondayanswering your real-life
marketing questions, becausemarketers who cannot teach you
(41:55):
why?
Caleb Agee (41:56):
are just a fancy lie .
Brandon Welch (41:57):
Have a great week .
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I'm your host, brandon Welch,and I'm here with Caleb four
eyes agey.
Hey, right back at you, buddy.
You know, they say the shoesmake the man.
Caleb Agee (00:18):
Okay, well, the frames make the podcaster, I
think.
Okay.
Brandon Welch (00:20):
I like your new frames.
Caleb Agee (00:22):
I have a face for podcasts if you are listening
via the audios.
Brandon Welch (00:26):
Pull over and pull up caleb's fancy new frames
and tortoise shell wonder yeah,hey, this is the place where we
answer your real life marketingquestions so you can eliminate
waste and boom, grow yourbusiness boom and achieve the
big dream double boom I think weshould just have nate start
start working in uh boom justyeah, random sound effects into
(00:50):
the podcast yes hey, I was at,uh, a marketing class with roy
williams, the roy williams andsomebody big deal around he's.
Caleb Agee (00:59):
He's a big deal.
We we study him a lot.
The faja somebody raised theirand said it was like an open
question time how do you measurethe success of your campaigns?
And without missing a beat, helooked at them and he said most
people use data the way a drunkuses a light post for support,
not elimination, and then hejust let it sit there.
(01:19):
And of course the guy who askedthe question is like what the
heck does that mean?
Right, and he was quoting theScottish poet.
And of course the guy who askedthe question is like what the
heck does that mean?
Right and um, he was quotingthe Scottish poet.
I looked it up, cause I need toAndrew Lang, cause we're going
to give him credit for this.
Um, but what Roy was pointinghis finger at is our weakness,
our confirmation bias.
(01:40):
That happens when we try to bea small business, marketers
slash statisticians and theslash voters slash yeah,
political experts slash.
Yeah and um it's.
It's just that we always have abias of self-confirming and
(02:01):
that drunk um doesn't use thelight post to be illuminated.
He doesn't.
He's not trying to look at thestreet in all of its glory.
What he's doing is he's justleaning on it because he needs
some support for his current.
Brandon Welch (02:12):
It feels good to find data to confirm your
suspicions yes, or insecurities,or whatever Feels good to be
right.
Caleb Agee (02:20):
I guess yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:21):
Yeah, there's a whole nother thing I've actually
it's.
I didn't plan on talking aboutthis, but I've been doing quite
a bit of study on confirmationbias.
It is wild how, uh,neurologically wired, we are to
do that.
Caleb Agee (02:35):
Yeah, um, I've been looking for studies to I've been
doing a lot of research to tomake sure I can prove that
confirmation bias is real.
So I asked chat GPT cheat GPT.
Brandon Welch (02:47):
I said, hey, find me all the reasons why this is
right.
It's actually a reallydangerous tool for that.
Caleb Agee (02:54):
It really is.
So, in reality, as marketers,we're all wondering you know,
how do we know this thing isworking?
We're spending money in allkinds of different places and
you want to know what's working,you want to know why it's
working and you want to rewardwhat is working, and you're
writing the checks and take themoney away from what isn't
(03:16):
working, right that?
makes sense.
Right, Um, you wouldn't want to,you know, throw good money
after bad, Um, but the way wealways do that, and I promise
you somebody listening to thispodcast it's hanging out in
their sales process somewhere-oh, this has happened today.
It's tucked into a formsomewhere on your website and
(03:37):
it's just lurking there waitingfor your customers, and it is
asking Nobody from Frankenmavenwould do this?
Yeah, it is asking how did youhear about us?
How did you hear about us?
Brandon Welch (03:46):
The infamous question Seems perfectly
reasonable.
Caleb Agee (03:48):
Yeah, it seems like a fair question, but we're going
to talk about why that maybeit's perfectly unreasonable,
isn't the right thing to ask?
Brandon Welch (04:01):
What you need to know is it about your business?
Relying on introspection ofhuman beings is just
psychologically, neurologicallyand emotionally impossible, and
I would love for it to be true.
Trust me, my job would havebeen a gazillion times easier
over the years.
Our job would be a gazilliontimes easier over the years
(04:23):
because we would just ask peopleand they would tell us and we
would do that whole eliminationKey point we are here to
eliminate waste in advertisingright.
Caleb Agee (04:32):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (04:33):
That's like an entire.
That's in our freaking visionand mission statement yes, to
help entrepreneurs grow withoutwasting money on advertising.
So this is going to sound verycontrary to a lot of people
listening.
We're going to get some hatemail on this.
I know we are and I can't wait.
But we're doing it because welove you and we want you to make
(04:53):
decisions off of goodinformation, not bad information
.
We want you to grow, we wantyou to conquer all these things.
So at a high level, we're goingto go into the weeds enough to
articulate some people that areway smarter than me and you,
yeah.
Caleb Agee (05:12):
Not hard to find.
Brandon Welch (05:13):
This is not an opinion.
This has been repeated over andover and over in university
studies and advertising scienceat large has tried to ask this
and figure this out for a longtime and I'm just going to say
as a preface big brands, bigbrands, like people who have
millions of dollars at stake.
They don't ask that question,they use the other things we're
(05:35):
going to talk about at the endof this um.
So if you want to be like smartbig brand advertisers and we
all do right, um, you're notgoing to ask how did you hear
about it, you're going to dosome other things.
Um, there are three bigproblems with it memory bias uh
is the biggest um.
Customers struggle toaccurately recall specific touch
(05:58):
points that led them topurchase uh to any purchase
decision.
Um.
The second is that it's anoversimplification of a complex
journey the path to purchasing,especially large ticket items,
and we try to think of it asdecisions are made in this
vacuum and it's just like astimulus response thing.
It is just way more complexthan that.
Caleb Agee (06:18):
Yeah, I think Google tried to do.
They called it the zero momentof truth or something like that.
They tried to emphasize thatfinal moment.
Yes, but that's not the onlymoment.
Yes.
You know it might be the lastmoment, but it's not the moment.
Brandon Welch (06:31):
Two of the larger like advertising platforms in
the world, like Google would beone and.
Comscore, who studies likeconsumer behavior would be
another.
Like consumer behavior would beanother.
They themselves, like they,have the most to gain, and
probably Google especially hasthe most to gain, because almost
everybody will say Google.
Caleb Agee (06:51):
I found you online.
Brandon Welch (06:52):
And they came out with a book like a decade or
more ago.
We cite it in the MavenMarketer and they're like it's
actually not one thing, it'snever one thing.
At the time it was like eightor nine things.
I've heard data that's morelike 12 to 15 things that
contribute that they canscientifically measure.
But every neuroscientist willadmit we don't know.
It's a very complex web ofunconscious.
(07:14):
We're going to talk aboutunconscious thought today.
The third is socialdesirability bias.
Caleb Agee (07:20):
This one cracks me up, because when you ask
somebody to help you, they wantto give you the information that
they think is the most helpfulfor you.
Yeah.
So they change their answer tohelp you.
They'll be like oh well, Iheard you, maybe they searched
on Google.
They'll be like well, I'veheard your TV ad.
(07:42):
Yeah.
And they'll try to give creditto the thing that they think
maybe you're spending the mostmoney on, or they think that you
want to validate, or that makesthem look the most
sophisticated.
Brandon Welch (07:50):
Yes, Well I definitely didn't see you on a
billboard or I definitely didn'twatch you on television last
night, yeah, I know, so theyprovide answers.
We, we all do this, we're notmaking big bad wolves out of
everybody, but we believe aremore acceptable or favorable.
And I don't want to tell peopleI was scrolling on Facebook so
I may not say that, right, butthe truth is way before that.
(08:10):
You just don't remember.
At least 90% of this happens inunconscious thought and
everybody is losing their mindsright now because they're going
oh, but how do I figure this out?
And we have clients that havespent gazillions of dollars on.
That's a real number, right?
Caleb Agee (08:27):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (08:27):
Gazillions on TV and people come in and swear
that they have heard them on theradio and they've never spent
one penny on the radio right Yep.
This happens all the time in ourenvironment.
So we're doing our best tobreak this down and just give it
to you in a way you can trustand act on.
And a way you can trust and acton.
And there is a better answer.
We're going to get to thatshortly.
But hey, let's talk about thepeople that are smarter than us,
that are going to confirm ourbias.
(08:52):
Richard Nisbet, if you want tolook him up, and Timothy DeCamp.
Timothy DeCamp Wilson did astudy called Telling More Than
we Can Know.
Landmark study demonstratedthat people often fabricate
explanations for their ownbehaviors without realizing it.
They got some funding from theUniversity of Michigan to do
this and the big takeaway isthat people confabulate
(09:16):
Confabulate.
It's definitely smarter than us.
Caleb Agee (09:17):
It's definitely smarter.
That's a $9 word, right therethey confabulate reasons for
their actions.
Brandon Welch (09:23):
Nisbet and Wilson found that when asked to
explain their choices orbehaviors, people often provide
plausible but inaccurateexplanations.
They are unaware of the actualfactors influencing their
decisions.
Instead, they construct a posthoc rationalization based on
what seems to be reasonable, soessentially what sounds good,
right.
Caleb Agee (09:42):
What sounds right.
You don't know your own trainof thought that led you to the
decision that you made, and thenyou try to reverse engineer it
when somebody asks you at theend yes, and you're going to do
it inaccurately because youcannot account for all of the
factors that influenced yourdecision up to that point.
Brandon Welch (10:02):
You know those late night show guys that go up,
they send somebody out on thestreets and they ask people
questions and they make themlook really stupid because the
people you know, on the TVaudience side, we can see
exactly what's going on withthese people, or don't know in
the moment.
Well, they did the same sort ofthing.
Here's an example from thestudy.
They showed them two differentpairs of nylon stockings of all
(10:24):
things right and they saidchoose the one that has the best
quality.
Unbeknownst to the participantsin the study, all of the
stockings were actuallyidentical.
However, all of them provided adetailed justification for why
they chose one set of stockingsover the other, often mentioning
texture or color factors thatweren't actually different when
they showed them.
(10:44):
And it just demonstrateseverybody's instant ability to
come up with a very convincingstory as to why they can justify
something.
I know this because I do it allthe time.
I want my ideas to be right andI'm pretty good at storytelling
, so you've been warned.
So we are unaware of subtledifferences in our decisions.
The big things we can remember.
(11:05):
We can remember where we werewhen somebody died or we got
really good or really bad news.
We can remember you know whatthe weather was like and what.
You know what was on the radiowhen really defining emotional
moments happen in our lives, butwhen they're when they're
essentially happening in theunconscious things that wouldn't
otherwise warrant the synapticfiring that creates long-term
(11:25):
memory.
We go back and we look in thatcorner.
We don't realize we do this,but there's not enough detail
stuck in the brain to evenfabricate something, so we just
do it.
Caleb Agee (11:35):
We just go.
Brandon Welch (11:35):
we go off what we think, or maybe what we think
we would do in that moment, butwe were very, very inaccurate at
doing that.
Caleb Agee (11:41):
That's right.
Brandon Welch (11:43):
So that was one study, so here's another one by
Michael Gazzaniga.
Caleb Agee (11:48):
Okay, you nailed it yeah.
Brandon Welch (11:52):
I read this stuff all the time.
Yeah, totally didn't look thisup this week.
Actually, there are a few inhere that we're referencing that
I did some pretty deep researchon when we wrote the Maven
Marketer.
Caleb Agee (12:03):
Yeah, I was mostly talking about the name.
It's hard to get other people'snames right.
Brandon Welch (12:07):
Gazzaniga Sounds like Italian dish, I'll have the
Gazzaniga.
Yeah, he studied the splitbrain to show how the left
hemisphere creates explanationsfor actions that are actually
controlled in the righthemisphere, demonstrating how we
rationalize unconsciousinfluences.
We weren't planning on talkingabout brain lateralization today
(12:27):
, but you should know that inthe 80s, dr Richard Sperry
discovered that we have anddemonstrated there are two
working hemispheres of the brainand they're responsible for two
very different functions.
Tell us about that, dr Sperry.
Caleb Agee (12:58):
I was thinking about shoes after Dr Sperry
administrative side of yourbrain working, and so those two
paired together make you a verycomplex individual.
But what this, what Michael'sstudy found is that your right
brain does this creativethinking Pattern finding it
doesn't even know.
Chaotic, it's chaotic, it'scrazy.
Brandon Welch (13:19):
It's art, it's music, it's all these things
that are happening in that sideof your brain, just like you had
no idea you were going to thinkabout tennis shoes 40 seconds
ago when I said dr richardsperry, and your brain went off
on this.
Yeah, I wonder if he wasrelated to the sperry family
yeah, the sperry fortune.
Caleb Agee (13:35):
I was like as he found out that there's a left
and a right side of your brainand a left and a right foot yeah
so then he started a shoecompany, and that's literally
where I went in my brain.
See that I was so distracted Inreal time.
Brandon Welch (13:45):
that is what your brain is constantly doing, by
the way, even while you sleep.
Caleb Agee (13:49):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (13:50):
Your left brain deals in finite details, black
and white logic.
Caleb Agee (13:55):
Okay.
Brandon Welch (13:56):
Yeah, and it's the thing that controls a lot of
your motor functions.
So when you go to explainsomething, it's trying to make
sense of whatever pattern thatthe right has fed it.
But the right has no ability toactually fully fabricate or put
in linear fashion that can becommunicated.
It's a chaotic thing.
That's why you think ofsomebody who's an artist or a
(14:17):
musician or maybe a reallytalented athlete, and you try to
ask them how do you do?
Caleb Agee (14:21):
what you they don't know, yeah, the right brain is
just on go listen to anycommentary album uh by an artist
, you know, and they're, they'relike, yeah, we were um just
sitting in the studio one dayand and dave was, he was just
playing this line and againstthe jukebox and I said, hey, man
, don't rock the jukebox, yeahit's like and then boom, you got
(14:42):
a song and obviously there werea hundred more things that
happened for that song to come.
Brandon Welch (14:46):
They make it sound like it's simple I just
need to go sit.
Caleb Agee (14:49):
But they're trying to rationalize somebody asked
him a question, left brain'sshowing up trying to answer a
right brain question and it'sjust not possible there's also
when you ask a child.
Brandon Welch (14:57):
I've learned this as a dad why?
Caleb Agee (14:59):
did?
Did you do that?
Brandon Welch (14:59):
They don't know they don't know, they don't know
.
That's a horrible question.
Caleb Agee (15:02):
I'm so bad at it.
Brandon Welch (15:03):
I'm bad at that too.
Yeah, what were you?
Why Give me your logic?
And they're like I didn't haveany logic.
It just seemed like the rightthing to do, just felt good.
So there's your right.
Brain is processing things thatyou can't even construct into
useful thought that can betransferred to another human
(15:26):
being, maybe much less even yourown understanding.
Caleb Agee (15:30):
Speaking of kind of the automatic thing we're
talking about with our kids,john Barg studied cognitive
psychology and the automaticitythat's a good word.
Yeah, there's another, that's$13.
Brandon Welch (15:40):
That's a good word.
Yeah, there's another, that's$13.
Caleb Agee (15:42):
That's going to cost you.
Basically, it showed how muchof our behavior is driven by
automatic unconscious processes.
Yes, so sometimes I think ifyou ask an adult, why did you do
that, they also don't know.
Brandon Welch (15:56):
Here's some more proof.
Yeah, did you know that, as aperson living in American pop
culture, you know the betterpart of hundreds of songs?
I think the stat is actuallywell into a thousand songs that
you never, ever, ever intendedto learn.
Caleb Agee (16:12):
Yeah, my dad texted my brother and I about a band,
just super obscure brand, nobodyknows them from our childhood,
and he was like hey, what wasclose?
Uh, no less less known thanthat even.
But he was like, hey, what wasthat band?
And we pulled it up and then he, uh, he was like, oh yeah,
that's it.
My brother remembered pulled upsome of the songs I knew every
(16:35):
single word Haven't heard it in20 years?
Yeah, easily.
Yes, every single word.
Brandon Welch (16:39):
Yes, did you ever intend to learn the State Farm
jingle?
No, like a good neighbor.
Caleb Agee (16:46):
Well, we were doing the Mario Prove my point.
Oh yeah, mario, just a minute,we were just playing it before
we hit record.
Brandon Welch (16:51):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (16:51):
And watching the guys that can play it on guitar
really well.
Brandon Welch (16:54):
But I need some confirmation bias.
Like a good neighbor.
Caleb Agee (16:56):
Yeah, stay Farm is there Okay?
Brandon Welch (16:58):
thank you.
Caleb Agee (16:59):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (16:59):
Mario so there are a gazillion examples of you
doing this in a day Like youjust do that.
You could smell perfume that waslike your grandmother's perfume
, that you haven't seen in 30years because she's been gone,
and you instantly have a floodof emotions that come back to
you.
You instantly have a flood ofemotions that come back to you
and you could have neverexplained or felt those again if
(17:21):
it wasn't for that right brainunconscious automaticity that
John Barg studied.
Also.
(17:42):
Antonio Damasio talked aboutthe somatic marker hypothesis,
which is how emotions influencedecision making and suggests
that much of our reasoning isguided by unconscious emotional
signals, our limbic system.
This goes way back to childhood, before you could even talk or
understand math or words orreading.
And these things that happen toyou environmental things, good,
bad, somewhere in between,sensory-based things create
patterns in your brain and itreally at its core.
(18:03):
It's a, a survival mechanism.
It helps us avoid danger.
Yeah, helps us know like badsmells versus good smells, and
and what are well, and it's evendown to what am I going to
waste calories on?
Caleb Agee (18:14):
yes, it costs.
That computer you have inside,you know, in between your ears,
takes power and your body'sliterally thinking what should I
spend those calories on today?
And it's trying to cancel out,it's trying to be as energy
efficient as it possibly can beand that's the unconscious,
automatic thing that's happening.
Brandon Welch (18:34):
If you want to read more about that.
We didn't put it in here today,but that's actually a
fascinating study.
It actually informs a lot ofthings we should be doing in
advertising, which is don'twaste people's time, help them
thrive or survive, and if you'renot doing that, shut up um get
you a copy of the Maven market,or go to the back resources.
There's a study that we uh linkto in there, uh, or get the
(18:55):
Kindle version and uh read moreabout that.
So, uh, we're making, we'remaking you more smarter, okay,
yes, uh, last thing, this one,this one is specifically from
the journal of targeting,measurement and analysis and
marketing.
Did you know there's a journalfor targeting and measurement
analysis?
Caleb Agee (19:11):
Of course, Uh, I can't tell you how I knew that,
but I but I do.
Brandon Welch (19:15):
This one in the early 2000s, estimating
advertising half-life and datainterval bias.
Now that is nerd talk and we'renot going to keep you there,
mm-hmm.
But Monash University Facultyof Business and Economics these
people study what makesbusinesses grow, and all of that
sort of stuff concluded thatwhile advertising has a
(19:36):
measurable effect on consumerbehavior this isn't a college,
okay, this is a collegiate likepeer-reviewed study While
advertising has a measurableeffect on consumer behavior a
measurable effect it operates ina way that is not necessarily
linked to explicit memory recall.
Instead, advertising worksthrough ad stock, a cumulative
(19:57):
decaying effect, where pastexposures continue to influence
purchase decisions long afterthe ad itself has been forgotten
.
Think about that.
You can remember what the dangad was, what?
it said Now this is whererepeating characters becomes
such a useful tool Repeatingcharacters and slogans and
jingles and colors and brandlike elements, right Brand voice
(20:23):
.
That helps people remember yourcampaign.
Total side rant you want tocreate campaigns, not ads, but
this is saying the individual ad, the thing that said the
whatever thing.
You don't remember where youwere, what happened, what
channel it was, on what media itwas.
Even on right.
People will swear they saw youin a magazine.
You were never in right.
Caleb Agee (20:41):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (20:43):
But you do retain a feeling and a familiarity,
much like walking into a room ofpeople you haven't seen for a
very long time, or maybe youdon't remember who they are, or
maybe you're church.
You don't know themindividually, but you get a feel
for them.
Same sort of thing.
It does influence the purchasedecision, it influences
preference, even though the aditself is a figment of it's
(21:05):
crazy, the past it's.
Caleb Agee (21:06):
I like that ad stock language.
It's like an impression of yourbrand, not the ad itself, but
the impression of it.
It's the how it made you feelyes, lasts a lot longer than the
ad itself.
And um, um.
And then I guess, by this logic, something I saw when I was 10
years old is still affecting mypurchasing decisions today,
(21:28):
which is wild to think about it,and it could be for good or for
not, right, yeah?
Brandon Welch (21:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Caleb Agee (21:36):
And there are probably ads I saw back then
blockbuster ads that aren't ontoday, but they affect how I
think about.
I don't know, I'm makingsomething up, something random
up, but affect how I think aboutmovie purchases today.
Oh sure, Whether I realize itor not.
Brandon Welch (21:49):
Yeah, or cars, or yeah, think about big brands
Like.
Think about Oldsmobile.
Caleb Agee (21:53):
I'm thinking of brands that aren't around
anymore.
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (22:02):
Are they still affecting us today in because of
the advertising they did backthen, the one I use in the book
a lot is coke and pepsi, and ithas a heck of a lot more to do,
not with the ads themselves, butwhat kind of household you grew
up in, right?
Um, my grandma was a was acoca-cola household and
therefore, I will always be acoca-cola guy, even though I
don't drink soda yeah, we were apepsi mountain dew house, so we
would choose restaurants.
Caleb Agee (22:20):
that Pepsi Mountain Dew house, so we would choose
restaurants.
That's what's wrong with you.
We would choose restaurantsbased on whether they had.
Pepsi products or not.
Yep, I wondered all this time.
That's, that's why we you knowwe have when we have conflict,
we know the root of all of it.
So, pepsi, hey, all of this isthe reasons we're trying to
(22:45):
confirm our bias.
Uh no, I'm just kidding this.
This is real science.
Um, on why you shouldn't beasking how did you hear about us
?
And um, some of you literallythink about that form on your
website, where you ask it alongthe customer's journey or or at
the end of your sales process,you say now, how did you hear
about us?
And give us?
You give them a check, checkboxes, or maybe you just leave
it as an open question and theytype it in Um, well, how the
heck am I going to know what?
(23:05):
yeah.
Brandon Welch (23:06):
Which advertising to keep doing right?
It's the old adage Half myadvertising is wasted, I just
don't know which half.
Caleb Agee (23:11):
Yeah, yes, it's adage, I like that.
Brandon Welch (23:14):
So hey question when did you first hear Twinkle,
twinkle Little Star?
Caleb Agee (23:20):
I don't know.
My, that was probably my That'dbe from somewhere.
Yeah, I can't.
Brandon Welch (23:25):
I don't know, Don't give credit to the nursery
school at church, or your momor your grandma or your dad or
whatever.
Caleb Agee (23:31):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (23:35):
What radio station did you first hear Sweet
Home Alabama on.
Caleb Agee (23:38):
Hmm, I have no clue.
Brandon Welch (23:45):
Could you possibly know that?
No, now, if you ask a lot ofpeople, they'd probably think oh
well, my dad listened to youknow 102.5 or something, so it's
probably that, and theyprobably without somebody.
Yep, nobody, nobody knows that,right?
Yeah, this, this is my favoritething to ask people when you
you pull to McDonald's in themorning I actually got to do
(24:06):
some of McDonald's media buys atone point.
It was fascinating how theythought about it.
But you pull up, you get yoursausage of nothing and they're
like we just have one questionwhen did you hear about us?
And it's like the properresponse to that would be which
time?
Yeah, which time are youtalking about?
Caleb Agee (24:25):
Well, when you pull up to McDonald's, you know what
they say first Welcome back.
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (24:29):
Welcome back Right Strong case for the
yesterday customer.
Caleb Agee (24:33):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (24:33):
But just think about a world where somebody
hadn't been to McDonald's andthere's a lot of homeschool kids
that never have been there, I'msure, and they're going.
How'd you hear about us?
And everybody's like I don'tknow.
That's a, that's like the most.
That'd be the dumbest questionto ask, right, yeah, um, I
happen to know that the mediabuyers for mcdonald's have a
(24:54):
formula that between the hoursof 10 pm and 6 am, they want you
to hear their TV ad for, um,you know, pancakes, or?
sausage whatever in the morningor while you're falling asleep.
Yep, so that when you wake upand you have that hunger, that's
like one of your first, mostrecent stimulus.
Caleb Agee (25:12):
Grab a breakfast burrito on the way.
Brandon Welch (25:13):
They also want you to hear the radio ad when
you're pulling out of the garage, right, and they want you to
see a billboard on the way.
And now I'm sure this was 10 or15 years ago now I'm sure they
have a Instagram Facebookcomponent to that.
And it's like stop trying tosource your advertising, and
what I kind of came to theconclusion of when I was doing
this and honestly wrestling withthis myself as a business owner
(25:37):
and in the early days ofadvertising for my family's
company, like we would ask thisquestion, and I realized that I
was trying to use confirmationbias to figure out who to fire.
And the truth is, any one ofthe multiple medias I was using
could have worked, but I wouldyou know wait three months.
But I haven't heard anybody sayanything about that.
(25:58):
So yeah.
I don't think it works.
We had somebody come in hereRemember this person that came
in here for a case study or fora lunch and learn thing and she
was like radio doesn't work.
I already tried that and we'relike tell us more.
Caleb Agee (26:11):
When did you try it?
Brandon Welch (26:11):
Yeah, Well, I ran it for two weeks and nobody
came in, nobody talked about it.
Right, like oh, but Right, butbreak this down.
You could be the crappiestradio station in your town, you
could be the smallest radiostation there are still people
that show up and listen to thatevery day or Billboard, or the
smallest whatever.
(26:32):
And just think about, there areat least thousands, if not tens
of thousands, of people exposedto even the smallest of
stations at a medium-sizedmarket.
And so you just think, well,have all 10,000 of those people
come around to buying from meand or their friends and family?
(26:52):
And it's like no, then whywould you stop?
Like well, I don't know ifthey're the right people, well,
they're human beings, right?
Caleb Agee (26:59):
On the Younger Pop pop channel.
Brandon Welch (27:02):
You're probably not going to advertise um things
that homeowners would need orright like retirement services
concrete foundation repairservice yeah to the 18 to 24
year olds, because they don'tlikely have a house there's a
station in town that everybodyused to listen to in high school
.
Power 96.5.
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (27:22):
We all talk about it and I wouldn't buy on that
station at least as it was backthen for something that you need
when you retire or as ahomeowner or whatever.
Brandon Welch (27:34):
Now would it still work?
Yeah, it would still work.
Yeah, in time it would work.
Add stock it.
Just there's a little bitbetter decision to make there,
right?
So there's some demographic likeit's kind of a secondary
thought, and we're getting offtrack, but what we're saying is
just keep making noise to thosepeople and everybody's waiting
for.
Well, how do I measure it?
Yep, we're talking largelyabout tomorrow marketing.
(27:56):
You can measure search engineperformance in a very short
window.
Yes, In a slightly longerwindow.
You can measure really targeteddigital like Facebook ads.
Right, Mm-hmm.
At least for their directresponse, lead generation or
e-commerce ability.
Right, you can say I spent$1,000.
How many transactions did I get?
That data is pretty reliable.
But when it comes toinfluencing and intercepting
(28:20):
people when they're not thinkingor trying to actively purchase,
which is what we call thetomorrow customer, which is the
way that other studies prove,that is the best way to grow a
profitable company.
Caleb Agee (28:30):
It should be two-thirds at least of your
marketing budget.
So it's the lion's share.
This is the one you're askingabout.
Brandon Welch (28:39):
It's 70-30, basically.
Yeah, the one you're askingabout it's 70-30,.
Basically is, if we're tryingto become known, liked and
trusted and become the preferredprovider in our market or our
industry, here's seven thingsthat you can do.
We call these the seven clues.
Along the way, we're takingthese out of the tomorrow
marketing strategy chapter.
I think it's the most valuablechapter in the book.
I agree Because it brings somuch clarity to a very
(29:04):
historically unclear thing andsomething that's been, I think,
misrepresented by mediasalespeople.
So, when you're trying to growyour brand, steal market share,
get a bigger piece of the pie,grow faster than you have been.
Here's seven things you want tolook at.
One I will, almost alwayswithin six to twelve months
after running a good starting, agood campaign, or even a
(29:26):
mediocre campaign frankly I willsee a correlation of direct
traffic and organic trafficincreasing at the same time.
Yeah, what that is an indicatorof is people recalling your name
, instead of going to Google andsaying show me the list of all
roofers in the area, orattorneys, or whatever.
So Google Analytics, ga4, anypunk could set this up for you
(29:52):
and you would at least have thebasic data we're talking about.
You go to the user acquisitiontab and you just look at did
they come from organic search?
Did they come from directtraffic?
Which means they most likelyjust put your URL in.
Look at a really wide window foryour date, your timeline, yep
12 months if you want you know,generally web traffic if you've
(30:13):
done nothing to affect it or ifyour brand isn't growing, stays
the same or declines becausesomebody else is stealing it.
But I'm oversimplifying this.
But I think in a six to 12month window you could start to
see it.
If as long as you're not like,you can definitely see it year
over year, but as long as you'renot a really seasonal business.
So don't go comparing Decembertraffic for a summer home
(30:36):
improvement business for asummer product or a boat
dealership or something likethat, but in the same time
period, if all other things arethe same.
And one other small caveat ifGoogle hasn't made any major
changes to the competitivelandscape or the algorithm, that
would have reduced your organictraffic, you will usually see
this trend, like when you seeLyft and I'm talking 5% to 10%
(30:59):
is reasonable.
Year over year we start seeingit in the 30%, 40%, 50% and it's
like oh wow, that brand isgrowing, because most of you
growing a business have at leasta few years of data.
You've had a decent websitebuilt for you, so increase
direct website traffic and brandsearches via organic yeah.
(31:19):
You can also go to Google SearchConsole.
It's super nerdy Grab a nerdand just grab via organic.
Yeah, you can also go to Googlesearch console.
Caleb Agee (31:23):
It's super nerdy.
Grab a nerd and just grab anerd.
Brandon Welch (31:24):
Grab the major marketer and say show me if this
is happening.
Caleb Agee (31:27):
Second clue along the way you'll see decreased
lead cost and what happens thereis tomorrow marketing impacts
the overall picture of what'sappears to be today marketing
right, so you'll watch your leadgeneration, however you're
doing that.
It could be google, facebook,instagram, it could be through
(31:52):
you know lead aggregate sources.
You could watch it in all theseareas, but you'll watch your
cost go down because theyalready know about you.
Yes, whether they they clickedon the ad and you paid for it.
Brandon Welch (32:04):
You may have to pay ten dollars for that you
still have to pay an extra.
Caleb Agee (32:07):
Yeah but more often than not those people are
converting after the click.
Brandon Welch (32:12):
Yes, to we.
We laid this out, this veryvery thing, like a real life,
statistical, no numbers lyingcase study.
In last week's episode we hadone roofer that was getting a
$313 cost per lead and onegetting 72 in very similar next
door to door markets, verysimilar companies, same
everything, same budgets.
(32:32):
In the whole deal, the roofergetting the lower lead costs had
just been doing tomorrowmarketing, yeah.
Caleb Agee (32:40):
And a big thing here is somebody searched you know
they searched roofer near me,but you had that impression, you
had that stock inside of theirmind and then they chose you,
the ad stock, right.
They chose you instead of theother two, three, four on the
page.
Yes, and that's what drives thecost down.
Brandon Welch (33:00):
So that's about the known factor, like direct
traffic, and then the decreasedlead cost.
That's generally because theyknow you more and they're just
going to you directly instead ofgoing more often through a paid
source.
It's also about the trust andlike factor.
When people trust you more,guess what?
They'll come to your websiteand instead of thinking about it
(33:21):
more often.
Caleb Agee (33:26):
They will take action.
Just fill it out.
They're not in research mode.
Brandon Welch (33:28):
They are in I want you mode.
Yes, Most of the most of thenon-branded, non-well
established I shouldn't say umnon-tomorrow marketing clients
that we inherit or take on, cometo us with a three to 5%
conversion rate on their websiteand that would be considered
average for most industries.
Like 5% of the traffic, 5 outof 100 are actually taking the
next step.
Caleb Agee (33:48):
A lot of places would say that's really good.
Brandon Welch (33:50):
Fast forward a few years.
Anybody who's doing the planwe're talking about, it's 15 to
20.
The ones that we've been doingthis for a while with easily in
the 30s and that's because theentire market knows who they are
.
They already came there becausethey believe in them and they
think they sound like a goodcompany to work with.
That is the biggest incrementalincrease in efficiency and
(34:11):
therefore profit and thereforeriches.
That thing right there we justtalked about, that's what's
making millionaires with theMaven method.
Fun fact, we almost called theMaven marketer the Maven method.
That's right.
Fun fact, we almost called theMaven marketer the Maven
millionaire.
Yeah.
I remember that I had severalpeople trying to tell me that
was a good idea and I didn'tlike it.
Yeah, so I went and foundconfirmation bias as a bad idea.
Caleb Agee (34:32):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (34:32):
Caleb was like that's a dumb name.
You shouldn't do that.
Anyway but I think you, I thinkit's true.
Yeah, it's because so manymillionaires had come out of
that process.
Caleb Agee (34:41):
Yeah, that's right.
That was number three higherconversion rates on your website
.
Number four is competitorschasing you.
You will watch and it'll beannoying to some of you, it'll
be maybe borderline, make yourface red, get you a little angry
, but they will copy youramazing ads.
(35:04):
They will copy your productoffering.
They will copy.
I've seen them copy colors howyou, yeah, your brand, your logo
will start to look the same and, outside of copyright laws
assuming they were a percentageaway enough to not be completely
stealing from you they will dothat because what you are doing
(35:25):
is working.
Brandon Welch (35:26):
Yes, and they're hearing it on the sales pitch,
they're seeing theirappointments go down, they're
seeing themselves lose moredeals or conversations to you,
and so they're like, oh, they'readvertising that TV.
Caleb Agee (35:37):
I better do it the same.
They'll buy the billboardacross the street from your
billboard.
Brandon Welch (35:40):
Man, I have a really, really solid example of
this.
I don't want to say thecompany's names, but literally
this annoying, just like what'sthe word.
I'm a cringy competitor of oneof our big law firms.
Caleb Agee (35:57):
Clients yeah.
Brandon Welch (35:59):
Does the?
They tried to rip it and thething is let them do it.
The name almost sounds the same.
They ripped off the name.
They ripped off.
Yeah, actually she's had threeor four people in her town, but
what you have to do is takethings and make them.
Caleb Agee (36:13):
if that happens, by the way, that's one that is a
signal that your marketing isworking.
That's the point we're makinghere Mostly good working.
Brandon Welch (36:19):
That's.
That's the point we're makinghere.
Caleb Agee (36:20):
That is mostly good news.
It's mostly good, but you alsohave to make sure you have
things inside of your marketingthat make that nobody could copy
things that are special to you,that make you completely
different yeah, so, um, yeah, wetry to make sure that's baked
in.
Brandon Welch (36:32):
So competitors chasing you you're gonna hear it
um more repeat and referralbusiness.
So, uh, literally you'll belike, oh, my repeat and referral
business is up and it's likewhat's happening is your past
customers are in that audiencethat you are winning over and
and your.
Your brand is just becomingmore of a of a household thing
(36:52):
like a market awareness thing.
And that also prompts pastcustomers.
They're not immune to your adjust because they've already
done business with you.
Caleb Agee (36:59):
They've become not tomorrow customers, but
yesterday customers.
Brandon Welch (37:02):
Use this confirmation bias thing in
reverse.
People love to be the personthat refers good people.
I got a guy.
I got a guy.
Oh, you should go to so-and-so,they're awesome.
Yeah, and some people will evenrefer you, not ever having used
you.
This happens to Randy and Deeall the time.
Caleb Agee (37:22):
Oh, you should call that Randy and Dee.
They're good people.
It's like they've never metthem ever.
Brandon Welch (37:24):
And they are good people, but you don't know that
.
They just had really good adpeople, so more repeat referral
business.
If you see that going up, youcan know that your marketing is
working.
Caleb Agee (37:34):
Yeah, higher and easier sales closing ratios.
You will watch that sales call,uh, or that appointment or
whatever.
However you close the deal,you'll watch your close rates go
up.
Doesn't matter whichsalesperson you're talking about
.
It doesn't matter if it, if, ifyou're in your ads yeah and you
go to the sales appointment,you'll watch that skyrocket.
(37:55):
But even without that you willwatch your sales close.
Ratios just climb over timebecause people trust you before
you ever come to their house orbefore they ever have that call
with you.
Brandon Welch (38:06):
I had a client in a year and a half when they
started.
Their lowest closing sales guywas doing about 35%, which was
meh.
Their highest closing sales guywas doing about 60%, which is
meh or which is good.
Sorry, it's better than average, but the blended average was
like 45-50% right Year and ahalf later.
(38:28):
The team average was 58%.
The lowest guy came up, thehighest guy even got higher and
they're closing 58% Wild.
Caleb Agee (38:40):
Wild, wild, wild.
Do the math in your business.
Brandon Welch (38:43):
You watch the top line change and what's crazy if
you do the campaigns like wetaught you how to do last week
and in like most of the episodeswe talk about here.
If you do that, you go to thefront door or they come into
your place.
Your prospects will startrepeating your ads.
Oh, are you going to do thatthing?
Are you going to say that thing?
Show me about the, you know, dguarantee or whatever.
Or the whistle, your jingle, orwhatever.
(39:07):
It's working, they're doing itFor sure.
That's right.
So last one, that's what we allwant Drum roll, please.
Faster growth rate annually.
You may see this in your firstyear.
You'll definitely see it inyears like two and a half,
through Forever, forever.
Caleb Agee (39:27):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (39:27):
You're going to start growing faster than you
have Again, all other thingsbeing the same.
Let's assume you didn't buy anew location or you didn't do
something else, add a newproduct line or something.
But if you're just doing thesame things you've always done
and then you start adding thiscomponent to your marketing,
where people know, like andtrust you before the sale your
company will grow faster than itdid before.
Uh, not like, not like comparedto years one and two, when
(39:50):
everything is growth, but justyour average.
Like people that have come tous with you know, 10 year old
businesses, we haven't grownthis fast since our first second
year, so it can be easily inthe 30, 40%, 50% range for
service companies.
So lots of getting in the weedsthere.
What are we talking about?
(40:14):
Measuring your marketing is avery complex emotional equation.
There are very few, there areno exact scientific ways to
measure it, but there are veryfew ways even after that that
give you a full picture.
But the worst possible one isintrospection, humans'
introspection.
(40:34):
We are way more complex than weeven understand.
This is why we havepsychiatrists.
This is why people go to schoolfor 20 years to try to have
some sort of fathom about why wedo the things we do, but we're
just simply not wired to be ableto tell you why we made a
purchase decision.
Caleb Agee (40:52):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (40:53):
We're just not Not reliably, not reliably, not
consistently, yeah.
Second point long-term payoffscan't be measured in a
short-term window.
What you're doing today willpay dividends for months and
years past today, if you mustmeasure something, if your
(41:14):
accountant is going but I gottasee the data use the seven clues
along the way to get a betterfeel, to get more accurate, real
data about what's happening.
And, uh, ultimately, stopasking how did you hear about us
?
And just make sure people did,make sure they did hear about
you.
We'll look for reasons to stopmaking noise.
(41:35):
Just keep making noise and theywill have heard about you.
Doesn't matter where.
Sound bounces off the walls,emotions bounce from human to
human.
Just keep making noise.
We'll be back here every Mondayanswering your real-life
marketing questions, becausemarketers who cannot teach you
(41:55):
why?
Caleb Agee (41:56):
are just a fancy lie .
Brandon Welch (41:57):
Have a great week .
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