April 28, 2025 • 35 mins
CPMs are the great equalizer of marketing media. To make great decisions, you need to know how to calculate them and when to use them.
In this episode of the Maven Marketing Podcast, Brandon Welch and Caleb Agee break down one of the most misunderstood metrics in all of advertising: CPM, or Cost Per Thousand (impressions). The “M” is from the Latin word “Mille” meaning thousand. Marketers love to talk about targeting and impressions, but without understanding what CPM tells you, you might be overspending without realizing it.
Learn how to calculate CPMs accurately, what counts as a good CPM across different platforms, and—most importantly—how to compare medias with each other.
You’ll learn:
- The real definition of CPM and how to use it
- Why CPMs are crucial in Tomorrow Marketing
- Average CPM benchmarks across digital, TV, streaming, and out-of-home
- The danger of random impressions and why repetition wins
- How to ask the right questions when buying media
If you’re running any kind of advertising campaign—this is the marketing math that can make or break your ROI.
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Host: Brandon Welch
Co-Host: Caleb Agee
Executive Producer: Carter Breaux
Audio/Video Producer: Nate the Camera Guy
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caleb Agee (00:00):
If you can't understand how many people
you're reaching and how far yourbudget's going to go, you're
missing a major factor in theefficiency of your media.
Brandon Welch (00:13):
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I am your host, Brandon Welch,and I am joined by Caleb, Pogo
Stick, Agee.
Caleb Agee (00:22):
in the world, oh.
Brandon Welch (00:25):
Caleb lives below a pogo stick factory.
Caleb Agee (00:28):
Yeah, we have.
We're in the bottom floor of abuilding and our upstairs
neighbors have a lot of kids whovisit.
Brandon Welch (00:35):
You make it sound like we're, like, crammed in a
basement.
It's a nice building.
It's a nice building, but thereis an upstairs.
Caleb Agee (00:39):
There's an upstairs and actually when we were
looking for this office, Ithought we were going to be the
noisy neighbors.
You know, in our last office wehad a drum set which we didn't
bring in here for everybody.
Brandon Welch (00:52):
We do have a gong , though.
Caleb Agee (00:53):
Yes, we make some noise, we bump the music, but
our upstairs neighbors- the kidsup there, give us a run for
their money.
Brandon Welch (01:00):
Well, it's a pogo stick school, it's a pogo stick
gym they call that.
Caleb Agee (01:05):
I mean sure Training for the Olympics is what it
sounds like today, directlyabove my office is the playroom,
I think, and so we wereprepping this episode and it was
thumping.
Brandon Welch (01:15):
It was thumping.
It was thumping, thumping asyou do on a pogo stick.
Hey, this is the place where wehelp you eliminate waste in
advertising, grow your businessand achieve the big dream.
And today we're going to giveyou a little nerd hack called
CPM, and if you've never heardof it, this is going to be
really helpful for you.
Yes, if you've ever thoughtabout buying advertising or any
(01:35):
sort of media, or sizing up justhow loud you have to make noise
to really get attention, and soit is going to go nerd
territory.
So you've been warned.
But we're going to take thecomplex thing and make it simple
so that you can put it to usetoday.
Caleb Agee (01:51):
Yeah, Anybody who's spending money on marketing
should understand this conceptthough.
Absolutely.
I don't think it's.
We're going to keep it simple,right at some level, well enough
that you can understand it.
Brandon Welch (02:02):
I'll take that back.
We're actually de-nerding thisbecause nerds will kind of use
it and throw this term aroundand you're like, oh cool.
Caleb Agee (02:10):
Is that good or bad or what Great?
I got a CPM of whatever.
Brandon Welch (02:14):
So you've probably heard of CPM if you've
spent dollars on advertising.
If you haven't, I would take areally strong look at who's
selling you advertising and askthem why in the heck they
haven't talked to you about CPM.
Because it's very important.
We're calling it the gasmileage of your marketing
because it is the quickestnumber that just expresses how
far your dollar is going interms of times your ad is seen.
Caleb Agee (02:38):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:38):
Some advertising platforms have much, much, much
higher CPMs than others.
Some are really efficient.
Have low CPMs Doesn't mean it'sthe only metric that matters,
but it is very quickly one youwant to understand.
Caleb Agee (02:51):
Yeah, dollar per person or thousands of people
Dollar per time you're at is CPM.
Brandon Welch (03:00):
CPM, that's a Latin acronym.
It's cost per milli.
Milli being the Latin partSounds fancy, but it just means
thousand.
Milli means 1,000.
And so, literally interpreted,it's cost per thousand times
your ad is seen.
Why should you care, Caleb?
Caleb Agee (03:19):
You know it's really easy to get caught up in nerd
talk.
I talk to a lot of businessesthat maybe aren't our clients
yet.
Brandon Welch (03:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (03:29):
And these people.
They get stuck and get sold byimpressions and they get sold by
clicks and CPMs, that andthey're all just big numbers
that kind of shoot over theadvertiser's head, the business
owner's head, and it's reallyeasy to get lost in that and be
like, wow, that sounds good, butwhat does it actually mean for
the business at the end of theday?
(03:49):
And that's a big miss.
The biggest thing isunderstanding how many people
and how often you can afford toreach them.
If you can't understand howmany people you're reaching and
where, how far your budget'sgoing to go, then you you're
missing a major factor in theefficiency of your media.
(04:11):
So yeah.
Brandon Welch (04:12):
So it's yeah, take out, take out all the the
targeting and all this the hypethat somebody is trying to sell
you about their platform, andthen you just go cool, uh,
sounds awesome, what's the CPM?
And then you just go cool,sounds awesome, what's the CPM?
And we're going to get to this.
My mind goes immediately to alot of the streaming
conversations and the OTT.
Yes, because it sounds awesome.
(04:33):
Why wouldn't you want targetedto the exact zip codes that you
believe that your customers livein?
Why wouldn't you wantbehavioral targeting, like they
go to Target and they would be agood customer for you too.
Caleb Agee (04:46):
Why wouldn't.
Brandon Welch (04:46):
You want to target specific brands, owners
of brand vehicles?
Well, the reason you wouldn'tis because it's like 50 times
more expensive per time your adis seen and at some point that
extra premium you're payingversus a very non-targeted,
non-fancy media.
You could have gotten themanyway just by buying a bunch of
the non-targeted, non-fancymedia.
(05:06):
You could have gotten themanyway just by buying a bunch of
the non-targeted media right,exactly.
Just by buying the billboard orsometimes the broadcast, or
sometimes even some digital,some digital.
Yeah, even like Facebook, andit's like people tend to think,
ooh, I only watch Hulu now, soI'm going to go to Hulu and it's
like a lot of platforms becauseof what it takes to, what it
(05:28):
costs to maintain them and payfor the premium content and,
frankly, how greedy theshareholders are, they have to
charge a supply and demandfactor that is way, way, way
more expensive per person.
Seeing your ad.
Caleb Agee (05:42):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (05:43):
So did I leave anything out there so far?
I don't, I don't think so.
Caleb Agee (05:46):
Fun fact mille influenced the word mile in the
english language.
The english mile means it wasfrom mille passes, which is
latin for uh one, sorry 1000paces.
So our mile used to beinfluenced by how long it took.
You know, a thousand paceswould go.
(06:06):
Fun fact.
What's a pace?
Well, they standardized itlater, but in the Roman thing it
was like how long your stridewas.
Brandon Welch (06:16):
So probably four feet, Three, four feet yeah
something like that.
Caleb Agee (06:20):
Anyways, eventually they used rods and poles in the
old English system when theyformalized it.
So that's some actual nerdstuff.
But I found that while I wasdoing some research and I
thought it was fun.
Brandon Welch (06:31):
Well, it's your cost per mile.
Caleb Agee (06:33):
Your cost per mile and back to the it just comes
full circle.
Brandon Welch (06:36):
Yeah, back to the gas analogy, the gas allergy.
Okay, so let's do some math.
Since Professor Agee is here,take us from history to math
there.
Caleb Agee (06:47):
Okay, so we're going to just really quickly
calculate a CPM together.
Brandon Welch (06:53):
You don't need a calculator.
Caleb Agee (06:54):
You don't need a calculator.
Don't pull over your car rightnow.
I'm going to keep it reallyround numbers so that you can
keep this going.
But let's say you spent $1,000on any media I'm not going to
name it because I don't reallywant you to be biased by that
$1,000 on any media and you got50,000 impressions.
Okay, what's an impression?
Brandon Welch (07:14):
Brandon, why didn't we go here yet?
Caleb Agee (07:17):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (07:18):
An impression is.
Your ad was seen.
Yes, well, theoretically it wasseen, it was displayed, you
paid for it to be delivered.
Caleb Agee (07:27):
On a screen or something or somewhere.
Brandon Welch (07:28):
Yeah, let's get really clear about that.
So if there's 12,000 magazinesprinted and you have an ad on
one of those pages in themagazine, that's 12,000
impressions, except for theprint.
Folks tend to jack that up byfour because they say, ooh, you
know, four to five people.
Caleb Agee (07:43):
It's set on the coffee table.
Brandon Welch (07:45):
Yeah, four people watch that, so they'll say
that's four impressions.
But you know what did you payfor?
The print ad?
Caleb Agee (07:49):
Yeah, make sure you ask that question, by the way.
Brandon Welch (07:51):
By times the circulation, which is how many
people saw it.
That's print.
If there's 50,000 people thatwatch the news at 6 pm and your
ad is in that news program.
That is 80,000 impressions, or80,000 times your ad was seen.
(08:12):
And, by the way, all the peoplethat measure impressions have
some sort of fancy extrapolationon it.
So the TV folks will say ohwell, there's an average of 1.2
people in a room.
Caleb Agee (08:25):
So that was 1.2 impressions.
Brandon Welch (08:27):
Um, it's good to be aware of that.
Yeah, and I don't think one isany more loosey goosey than the
other.
I think they're probably allrelatively extrapolated.
Caleb Agee (08:40):
I would say the print one is the one I would be
the most careful of, becauseI've seen it 10 or 12x'd before.
Brandon Welch (08:47):
You want to ask what their multiplier is on the
circulation.
What's?
Caleb Agee (08:49):
their multiplier.
So circulation is important Ifthey print 10,000 copies of that
magazine it's good to know thatyou're only in 10,000 books.
Yes, and they're saying if it'sa 10x, they're saying 100,000
people see it.
It's like eh, I don't know,maybe but it's good to know that
it was only in 10,000 books,right.
Brandon Welch (09:09):
And they are the rating folks and the measurement
folks are relatively scientific.
There's some respect and honorto the way they're doing it.
They're statisticians by trade.
So there is a method to themadness by trade.
So there is a method to themadness.
And then digital impressions,which, frankly, are probably the
(09:30):
most pound for pound like-.
Caleb Agee (09:32):
Standardized.
Brandon Welch (09:33):
Standardized because with the exception of
robots, they can tell you.
Facebook, for example, can tellyou when the ad server fired
and loaded that actual image andtext and that ad ID.
Caleb Agee (09:46):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (09:46):
Or on YouTube.
They can tell you that you knowthe video played or how long it
played, or you know all thatstuff.
So it's just, the ad wasdisplayed somewhere, somewhere.
Caleb Agee (09:56):
Yeah, back to someone, back to the map.
You got 50,000 impressions.
We spent $1,000.
We got 50,000 impressions.
So to calculate your cost perthousand, we got fifty thousand
impressions.
Um, so to calculate your costper thousand, we've got to take
that fifty thousand and divideit by one thousand.
So easy numbers.
It's fifty, okay?
Um, so we divide our onethousand dollars by the fifty,
which is our fifty thousandimpressions and we get a cpm of
(10:20):
twenty dollars.
That is our.
Brandon Welch (10:22):
Our cpm will be twenty dollars cost per thousand
.
I can imagine $1,000 going intomy calculator.
Divide it by $50, and it wouldsay $20.
Caleb Agee (10:29):
Yes, does your calculator work like that?
It's working.
Brandon Welch (10:32):
Yeah, good, so let's talk about some standard
CPMs.
That's how you figure it outDivide the number of impressions
by $1,000, and then divide yourrate by whatever number.
That is so Facebook andInstagram today.
Now this has changed and itwill continue to change.
Frankly, it used to be higherand at times of high season
demand, like where there's a lotof people, a lot of advertisers
(10:53):
trying to advertise more,increasing their budgets, the
competition goes up.
Caleb Agee (10:57):
Right before Christmas election season, all
those things.
Brandon Welch (11:00):
Yep, but it's a wide range.
But on the low end it's goingto be in the $8 to $10 range and
then on the high end it's goingto be the $30 to $50 range.
Yeah, within Facebook, the moreyou target we're going to talk
about this in a second but themore you target and the smaller
the area and the smaller thedemographic target you get at,
you generally will pay more.
Caleb Agee (11:21):
The other thing in Facebook and a couple of these
other medias is they havemultiple campaign types.
And so if you say, hey,facebook, I want the action of
somebody clicking on my ad or Iwant the action of somebody
filling out a form, your CPM isgoing to be much higher.
But if you're, if you say heyFacebook, um, I want, I want as
many people as possible.
(11:42):
What they're actually lookingat for you is get them a low CPM
.
That's literally whatFacebook's algorithm is going to
try to do, so if you're doing areach or broad awareness type
of campaign on Facebook?
Yep, that's what they call it.
That's what they call it.
Brandon Welch (11:54):
Yep, great, google Display Network is really
the same.
So Google Display, now I'mgoing to call these.
In the $3 to $20 CPM it couldbe really, really low.
Caleb Agee (12:10):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (12:12):
When we say display, this is the ads that I
think everybody would agree theygloss over a lot.
Yeah, think about you're onyour favorite news site.
It could be CNN, it could beFox, it could be whatever you
want, and all of the news sites.
See what I did.
(12:32):
There have like these littlewindows that ads pop up in, and
it could be for somepharmaceutical drug, it could be
for some concert coming to town, it could be literally anything
, and Google's just shoving theads in to this window.
But, they're like little bannerads.
Caleb Agee (12:48):
I see them when I look up recipes a lot.
Yeah, recipes, those blogrecipe websites have tons of ads
on them, these kind of displayads.
Brandon Welch (12:58):
They can go really low if you just load up
your budget and say put themanywhere and everywhere, but 3
to 20.
Youtube has gotten really goodactually 6 to 25.
I would say the campaigns we'reseeing are more like 6 to 15.
Lately TV local broadcast cango if you have a really really
(13:20):
strong station in like amedium-sized market and you're
talking about like news andlocal programming, you can go
down to $3 to $5.
On the higher end, when you'retalking about prime time, it can
be $20 to $30-ish.
But generally the TV campaignsand the strategies we teach on
this podcast are going to be inthat $3 to $10 cost per thousand
(13:40):
.
Caleb Agee (13:41):
How comparable is radio?
Oh, we didn't put radio in here.
Brandon Welch (13:44):
I would call radio like 8 to 20.
So radio usually doesn't get asgood as TV, but it's still very
good in the grand scheme.
Yeah, ott and streaming.
For all of you who have beenwondering why we don't talk a
ton about streaming, this is whyMost I work and have worked
with some of the best and mostcapable people and the highest
(14:06):
end platforms in streaming.
It is really fancy and it does areally good job of like finding
this really really, really,really specific person and you
think, oh, that's great, becauseI'm selling yoga and you know
60-year-old dudes don't do yogaand it's like, probably true.
However, what if I told you youwere paying $55 per thousand
(14:26):
times your ad was seen, versusfive on another platform?
The 60-year-old dude and the30-year-old gal who does yoga is
in that smaller or that biggergroup, but for much cheaper.
Yeah, so streaming can work.
There's definitely some casesand there's some times we use it
, but that's why, in general, wedon't go to it for a branding
(14:49):
or a tomorrow customer mechanism.
It's just so dadgum expensiveto be seen by the masses.
Caleb Agee (14:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's important to think about.
Our research shows a range oflike 35 to 65.
It's probably actually 40 to onup 35 to 65.
Brandon Welch (15:04):
It's probably actually 40 to on up For the
people reached.
We would be spending.
You know we might be spending$100,000 on a local service
company for a broadcast.
To reach the same amount ofpeople, we'd have to spend a
million in streaming.
Caleb Agee (15:18):
Yeah, isn't that wild.
We're talking about 10x.
Brandon Welch (15:20):
Yeah, and I'm talking about on an annual basis
.
Caleb Agee (15:22):
Yeah, that is why we tend to lean on broadcasts.
And, by the way, it still works.
Yeah, it still works.
It is growing companies rightand left.
You can walk these halls andyou'll hear stories all day long
, every day.
Brandon Welch (15:35):
We have a very strong nerd, digital nerd, who's
very, very savvy here and hewas talking this week and he's
like man.
Before I came here I would havejust called complete BS on
broadcast On TV, on any of thistraditional stuff that you guys
have been talking about, and hegoes and he's the guy turning
the knobs on a lot of theseplatforms, so he's seeing in
(15:56):
real time how well our clientsare doing and there's a clear
divide between the ones who arewell-branded and broadcast.
And they're getting three tofour times the profitability on
their marketing.
Caleb Agee (16:09):
We asked him, we were like are you a believer?
Now he's like oh yeah, he goesyeah 100%.
Brandon Welch (16:13):
This is a nerd.
I mean, this is your.
Yeah, this is your.
Caleb Agee (16:16):
Before he was here, he was a Google nerd.
Yes, running a place in Googleads.
Brandon Welch (16:20):
We say Pride, yeah, and love, yes, and the
highest amount of like respectNerd's a good thing.
Caleb Agee (16:25):
Yes.
Hey billboards One of the mostefficient medias, yeah.
Brandon Welch (16:32):
Billboard.
Actually technically there'snot one that really beats it.
Caleb Agee (16:35):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (16:35):
If you get a billboard in a high traffic area
, I've seen them as low as $2,but I would say easily $2 to $10
.
Like I don't know that there'sanything much higher than 10
you're going to find, even in ain a rural area.
So yeah, Uh, billboards are wayto reach a lot of people for
cheap um streaming audio, solike Spotify and stuff,
(16:59):
definitely 20 plus.
Caleb Agee (17:01):
Yeah.
Um again remember that's on thehigh side of even what.
If you take its broadcastcomparison, radio was what?
10 to 20?
Brandon Welch (17:10):
yeah streaming audio starts at 20, probably
goes up from there so here's thekicker what is the most
expensive type of advertising?
Google search ads, holy smokes,anybody want to take a guess
wait, wait, yeah, say your guess, think of your guess.
Say it out loud In the car.
Caleb Agee (17:27):
Right now.
Right now I can pull up.
Brandon Welch (17:31):
We have hundreds of thousands of Google ads
dollars running right now, andif I averaged out the highest
and the lowest, it would besomewhere in the $600 to $700
CPM range Okay, to $700 CPMrange, okay.
There are a few that are loweron the $500 range, but they're
most of them are in like the 800to 1200 range per thousand
(17:52):
people reached.
Why is that?
Well, obviously Google has tomake money, but there are way,
way, way, way fewer people todaysearching for washing machines,
like this moment in time.
Then there are people who arenot searching for washing
machines.
It'd be like 1,000 to one,right, and so there's maybe in a
given town there might be a fewhundred people per day who need
(18:15):
a washing machine.
Well, that's very, very, verytargeted inventory, high value,
because they're very close tothe sale if you're looking for
washing machines or appliancestore companies or whatever.
Very close to the sale ifyou're looking for washing
machines or appliance storecompanies or whatever.
But it is a very, very, verypoor way to reach a lot of
people at once.
So this is why search is almostalways in the today customer
(18:35):
category.
You cannot brand yourself, youcannot become known among the
masses, because the masses willnever Google your thing enough
unless they already know what itis.
Caleb Agee (18:45):
And at that point.
Brandon Welch (18:46):
You don't need to be well-branded, you don't need
to be in the Google searchmasses will never Google your
thing enough unless they alreadyknow what it is.
Caleb Agee (18:49):
Yeah, and that at that point you don't need to be,
you don't need to be in theGoogle.
Brandon Welch (18:51):
But yeah, google ads are a hundred times more
expensive to reach people at abare minimum than than their
broadcast component or or evenFacebook right, even Facebook
and YouTube and stuff.
Caleb Agee (19:00):
And don't hear us say that Google ads don't work.
Yeah, they do work and youshould probably be there,
depending on what your industryand market is.
But, um, we, we help makemillions of dollars on google
ads every day, every day.
Um, that's right, but you needto be aware that if you live in
google ads, if that's the onlyplace you're trying to build
your company, you are doing itat the cost of 100 times the
(19:27):
efficiency, or 100 times lessthe efficiency, as another media
.
Brandon Welch (19:31):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (19:32):
And so that is a dangerous place to only be.
Brandon Welch (19:37):
So the rule of thumb is that the more targeted
the media is, the more expensiveit's going to be in the CPM
land, going back to the CPMfactor.
So that's why we call it thegas mileage.
Caleb Agee (19:49):
And it's really just the old supply and demand.
You remember economics class?
Brandon Welch (19:54):
Yes.
Caleb Agee (19:54):
Less supply, more demand.
Yes, you're going to pay more.
Brandon Welch (19:58):
And really this is going off topic for a second.
And then Caleb says then whyare you even doing it?
But also the targeting of yourmessage can make that that that
happen.
So even if I'm on a really lowcpm media, let's just say it was
broadcast and I'm talking aboutsomething that only a small
amount of people care about, saywashing machines well again,
(20:21):
only a couple hundred of thosepeople.
If I were advertising the entiremarket at once, could
potentially care.
But if I make you laugh and Ientertain you, then everybody
cares.
And then I can sneak in thewashing machine ad and I get the
people who wanted washingmachines and I also get the
people who didn't give a flipabout washing machines today to
at least finish that ad, likingme, feeling good about me and
(20:44):
one day preferring me, right,yep, and that's what we call
tomorrow marketing.
Caleb Agee (20:49):
Tomorrow marketing.
And just kind of to wrap allthat up, is usually you'll be
focused on CPMs as one of yourmain metrics when you're doing
tomorrow marketing, when that isthe business objective of that
marketing effort you're reaching.
tomorrow customers, your goalwill be to get the largest
amount of people daily and inparentheses, behind that is for
(21:10):
the least amount of money right,and so what we're going to do
is we're going to try to getthat CPM cranked down as low as
we can, while we keep ourfrequency as consistent as we
can.
Brandon Welch (21:22):
Yes, which brings us to the very important
distinctions, disclaimers, ifyou like.
So CPM is important because ittells you about the impressions
delivered, but it doesn'tnecessarily tell you about the
unique amount of people reached.
Meaning CPM is an expression ofimpressions, not people, and
that is.
(21:42):
Those terms are interchangedtoo often in advertising.
They think I'm reaching athousand people.
No, no.
Your ad was seen a thousandtimes.
That could mean you reached oneperson 1,000 times.
One person saw your ad athousand times Unlikely, but
that could be.
Cpm doesn't distinguish betweenthat or 10 people seeing it a
hundred times, or a hundredpeople seeing it 10 times, or a
(22:02):
thousand people seeing it onlyone time.
All of those things were 1,000impressions.
It's just you were missing thereach component there.
Caleb Agee (22:13):
Frequency as well.
Reach and frequency right yeah.
Brandon Welch (22:15):
So reach, going back to the ratings, will have
an algorithm for how many uniquepeople were reached in a
program.
So just do some basic maththere.
If a program had 50,000 peoplewatching it and the ratings
people knew that and they do50,000 people were watching this
(22:36):
program and you put an ad twotimes in the same program, only
50,000 people would be reached,but it would be 100,000
impressions.
Yeah Right, that's good.
And the frequency?
would be reached, but it wouldbe 100,000 impressions.
Yeah, that's good, and thefrequency would be two in that
time window, right?
Caleb Agee (22:49):
So you get in big danger with this impressions
mindset on digital medias,especially because of the repeat
impressions right?
Brandon Welch (23:01):
You want repetition?
You do If you were trying tobecome known, liked and trusted
in your market and if you weretrying to win over that tomorrow
customer, you cannot do it bybeing seen and heard once in a
while.
Even if you have a phenomenalad, you need some repetition to
that.
You need some repetition tothat.
You need some repetition tothat.
You see what I did there.
So not all impressions arecreated equal, some things.
(23:22):
So let's say you're looking attwo different medias and let's
just say it's maybe YouTubeversus broadcast.
That's a really real comparison.
Right now you would want tothink through okay, is this
(23:43):
impression video plus audio orvisual plus audio or audio only
or visual only?
So video or visual plus audiowould be like obviously TV ads
and digital video.
Audio only would be obviouslyradio or streaming radio.
One side note there I promiseyou we don't have time to go
into this, but neuroscience saysthat things we hear are much,
much, much easier to rememberthan things we see Everybody's
(24:06):
going but what about?
a picture is worth a thousandwords.
It's actually notneurologically or scientifically
true.
Caleb Agee (24:12):
I think it's more interpretive.
A picture is an impression but,it's not memorable Just because
you can describe it in athousand words you can't
re-describe my words in athousand words.
All you have is the words I say.
Brandon Welch (24:33):
Yes, now I'm not saying that some people don't
have a better learning abilitywhen they see something visually
.
I'm saying, when it comes tolong-term recall of names and
nouns and places, that we wantpeople to remember that our
businesses exist.
It is far easier to get them todo that when you use words, and
particularly unpredictablewords, words that aren't common,
because it sticks out.
Caleb Agee (24:51):
My family quotes things all the time.
My kids quote movies and showsthey have not seen because my
wife and I quote them all thetime, yes, and what you need to
do is look at your ads.
Are they quotable?
Yeah, are they worth repeating?
Are they fun?
Are they interesting?
Do you say it in an unusual waythat sticks in your brain?
Brandon Welch (25:11):
I met with a legendary advertiser.
Today, every person in our townthat is older than 20 years old
could quote this guy's ads andhe told me.
He told me somebody made himsay this line and has the end of
his.
All of his ads were, and I'mnot kidding.
And he said, somebody told meto say that and I thought it was
the dumbest thing ever.
And he goes, you don't know howmany times a day and he hasn't
(25:35):
advertised in years a day a day,people still come up to him and
say that and it's the dumbestthing and it's very quotable.
So back to impressions.
They're not all created equal.
You want, if you're doing anyamount of branding, just trust
me, you want an audio componentsomewhere, consistent and
repetitive, Repetitive.
Caleb Agee (25:54):
I almost did it, you got it.
Brandon Welch (25:57):
So think audiovisual is the best.
Audio only if you had to choosebetween that and visual, only
for tomorrow customers and forrepeatable, quotable,
rememberable phrases.
Here's something else you'regoing to want to consider In the
world of digital ads is thisskippable or non-skippable?
One of the great strengths andit sounds like we're all for
(26:18):
broadcast and we're not, it'slike we do it all but one of the
great strengths of broadcast isthat they're very intrusive.
You cannot skip an ad unlessit's been recorded on DVR.
But, like live news, livesports, people don't record
those things.
So the ad plays and everybodyhears it, versus seeing six
seconds of it and skipping it.
So when you're comparing it toYouTube, even though the CPM may
(26:39):
be the same of the two, if youhad a really good broadcast,
really good YouTube, you go eh,but the YouTube had a before the
, before the skip showed up, ora six second ad non-skippable.
YouTube will almost never be thefull 30 seconds, and that is
worth something.
Now you can actually go intothe YouTube platform and say on
average how much of mycommercial was watched.
(26:59):
I'm proud to say one of ourreally good YouTube advertisers
has an 85% view through rate, soit's almost as good as TV.
But that is not common and it'svery, very rare for you to for
anybody to be able to say that.
Caleb Agee (27:12):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (27:13):
So let me see here I was talking about
skippable versus non-skippable.
Yeah, think about thumbablelike a Facebook ad.
Caleb Agee (27:26):
Yeah.
It's even worse than skippable,because you don't even really
have to watch any of it, youjust flip past it.
Yeah, and your, you know,survivor, thrive.
Brain is flying by and thatimpression of the image, or the
first screen of the video thatyou're showing me, or the first
word, I'm instantly, whether Irealize or not, subconsciously
(27:47):
flying past it and determiningwhether it's worth stopping for.
Brandon Welch (27:50):
Yes.
Caleb Agee (27:50):
And, but that still counts as an impression.
Caleb the scroller yeah, youknow me If Caleb scrolled.
Brandon Welch (27:55):
That's what he would do.
Caleb Agee (27:56):
He doesn't scroll, not really.
Brandon Welch (27:58):
He, he's a, he's a, he's a man slave to his
habits, and they are very goodquality habits, unlike the rest
of us.
So hey, think about this.
You can go and look at on anyof these video creatives you can
.
It will say how many times thead was delivered.
That's the impression.
That's the cost per thousandimpressions.
But if your YouTube videoplaythrough rate was only 50%
(28:22):
and you're comparing it to TV,say, and it was like, oh,
youtube got $8, and so did TV,you would divide that by 50%.
And you're comparing it to TV,say, and it was like, oh,
youtube got $8, and so did TV,you would divide that by 50%.
Caleb Agee (28:31):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (28:32):
And it would be like oh, YouTube was $16, cost
$1,000, because that's theamount of people.
Caleb Agee (28:36):
You can compare to the TV that watched the dang
thing Because they never got tothe end of your ad on.
Brandon Welch (28:41):
YouTube, youtube.
If your media rep cannot findthese numbers for you, tell them
to go get some dadgum training.
Tell them to come to the Maven.
Marketing Podcast or watch someYouTube videos, and I love you
guys, but if they can't tell youthis stuff, that's their job
and they need to be able tomeasure and pull this up.
If your agency can't do it,fire them, because they
(29:02):
shouldn't be an agency.
Send them to the MavenMarketing Podcast.
Caleb Agee (29:08):
Okay, send them this video.
Brandon Welch (29:09):
Yeah, so all that stuff is easily findable in the
ad dashboard if it's digital,or the ratings platform of any
TV or radio station that you'reworking with.
Last thing, Last thing aboutimportant distinctions that
impression is only worth abranding impression if you know
(29:33):
it's going to have a repetitiveaudience.
We use the math of we want asmany people to see it four times
in a week as possible.
So we're saying in radiothere's a formula that we
basically if you've got 40 ads aweek, you're going to get a
four frequency on most stationsbetween the hours of 6 am and 7
(29:54):
pm.
Tv it's a little more fluid,you kind of have to let the
program tell you.
But if it's news or somethingthat people watch every day,
you're going to need an ad on inthat program every day to score
that four frequency right.
Because not every person watchesevery day, but on average they
(30:16):
come back multiple times perweek.
It's a little lessstraightforward with Facebook
and YouTube.
Sometimes you have to put abudget out there and then let it
, after a week or two, tell youhow many people it's delivering
to.
The frequency is the numberthey'll call that.
Let it, after a week or two,tell you how many people it's
delivering to.
Um and what I'm.
Caleb Agee (30:27):
the frequency is the number, though They'll call
that.
Brandon Welch (30:30):
Yep.
Caleb Agee (30:31):
And so you'll look for a three frequency and
they'll say three people orpeople have seen an average of
three times inside of thetimeframe that you've given it.
So you also have to payattention to that, because if
you're looking at last 30 daysor if you're looking at year two
date right, if you have a 90day thing, you need to pay
attention to that frequencybecause three times in in 90
(30:52):
days not good, not great, notgood.
Brandon Welch (30:54):
Yeah, you would in 90 days.
You literally want it to belike 20 or 30 yeah, yeah, that's
pretty rough excuse me, um, sothink like the, the, the hack
and like the best.
Um, like, just go to.
If you're a local business in alocal region, pick one program,
fill it up.
(31:15):
If it's radio, it's 40 spots aweek.
If it's tv, it's five spots aweek per program that you can
afford to do.
If it's digital, most digitaltargets are going to be 200,000
or 300,000 people.
If it's Facebook or YouTube,you're going to have to be
spending $5,000 to $10,000 amonth to be able to hit that.
(31:35):
I'm just giving you some basicnumbers.
But look at it afterwards andif you're not getting that
frequency per week on, say,youtube or Facebook, you need to
shrink your audience target oradd budget so that that money is
concentrated in the right way.
It's more concentrated.
Caleb Agee (31:50):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (31:50):
Yeah, and boy, we could do a whole episode on how
to adjust for that.
And if you have any questionsabout hey, how would I find that
, send them to us.
We'll answer them.
Caleb Agee (32:00):
We'll do a little video for you or something.
Brandon Welch (32:03):
And then just know that if you're doing that
radio or sorry, if you're doingthat tomorrow, customer you're
trying to win over those peopleas we talk about in this podcast
.
You want repetition and Iforgot to say this earlier
because liberty, liberty,liberty, liberty.
Caleb Agee (32:20):
That's repetition right Liberty, liberty, liberty.
Brandon Welch (32:22):
Yeah, so you want to recap?
Caleb Agee (32:26):
Yes, all right.
Number one CPM.
Use it to size up the bigdifferences between any medias.
It's the great equalizerbetween all medias, so you
should make sure you ask theperson that sells it to you, and
you can definitely see thistransparently in the dashboards.
But we talked about the nuancesbetween how you would maybe
(32:48):
compare these on a digital mediato a broadcast media.
Yeah, number two make sure youcheck your CPMs monthly or after
the schedules deliver, just tomake sure your efficiency isn't
changing dramatically and itwill sometimes.
Brandon Welch (33:04):
Yeah, these seasonal pockets.
Summer it tends to go.
Cpm tends to go up becausethere's less people using media,
but you've got the same budgetbut it probably reached less
people.
In holiday season, theaudiences tend to go up because
people are inside and it'swinter but there's more
advertisers competing so.
Facebook, google, jack up theprice of delivering those
(33:26):
impressions and, by the way, sodoes streaming.
Caleb Agee (33:28):
Yeah, and then the third just remember that not all
impressions are created equal.
Yeah, and there are threesecond impressions.
There's a single graphicalimpression.
Yeah, when you're looking atthat recipe, how much of
impression does?
That have on you Versussomebody singing Liberty,
liberty, liberty, something likethat Liberty, yeah.
Brandon Welch (33:51):
Yeah, bibbidi-moochoo, we hope that
that just gives you some contextand some immediate math to
level out all this confusionfrom all these people trying to
sell you all these things.
But we're here to help, so sendus your questions, say, hey,
would you do this or this orthis or this?
Right, we're here to help, sosend us your questions, say, hey
, would you do this or this?
Caleb Agee (34:05):
or this or this right.
Brandon Welch (34:06):
Yeah, and soon, like next week, we will have a
link for you to join themastermind if you want to start
bringing your stuff and workingthese problems through like real
time, like some of ourconsultants here Saying, okay,
this is great theoreticalknowledge and you're teaching me
(34:26):
the basics on the podcast, butwhat I want to start putting
this, how would I start applyingthis to what I'm actually doing
now?
Caleb Agee (34:30):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (34:30):
And we're going to pull up the dashboards with
you and you're going to get, youknow, live time with our people
, kind of like a podcast madeexactly for you.
But we're working it out infront of you and you know a
couple other dozen businessowners and everybody's learning
from each other.
So we are excited to say thatis here.
The link will be on the nextpodcast.
You can take that to the bankand I promise that at three
(34:51):
o'clock on Wednesday, april 23rd, when we recorded this, okay
and that, yeah, that's going tobe, that's going to be a thing.
Caleb Agee (34:59):
So until then, yeah, if you do need help or if you
have questions about any of thisum, send us an email.
Maven monday at frank andmavencom, we'd love to answer
them.
Uh, if they're relevant for themasses, we may answer it live
on the on the podcast here, andwe'd we'd love to be a part of
that.
Um also drop any questions youhave in the comments I think
(35:22):
there's some comments we I wouldlove to see heat up them algos
yeah, I'd love to see that ithelps us out, if you would.
It doesn't have to be anythingtremendous, but a good comment
here or there.
Brandon Welch (35:33):
Tell Caleb you like his haircut.
Caleb Agee (35:34):
Yeah, tell Brandon his frames look great.
Brandon Welch (35:37):
Yes, that's good, let's do that.
All right, we'll be back hereevery Monday answering your
real-life marketing questions,because marketers who cannot
teach you why are just a fancylie.
Have a great week.
If you can't understand how many people
you're reaching and how far yourbudget's going to go, you're
missing a major factor in theefficiency of your media.
Brandon Welch (00:13):
Welcome to the Maven Marketing Podcast.
Today is Maven Monday.
I am your host, Brandon Welch,and I am joined by Caleb, Pogo
Stick, Agee.
Caleb Agee (00:22):
in the world, oh.
Brandon Welch (00:25):
Caleb lives below a pogo stick factory.
Caleb Agee (00:28):
Yeah, we have.
We're in the bottom floor of abuilding and our upstairs
neighbors have a lot of kids whovisit.
Brandon Welch (00:35):
You make it sound like we're, like, crammed in a
basement.
It's a nice building.
It's a nice building, but thereis an upstairs.
Caleb Agee (00:39):
There's an upstairs and actually when we were
looking for this office, Ithought we were going to be the
noisy neighbors.
You know, in our last office wehad a drum set which we didn't
bring in here for everybody.
Brandon Welch (00:52):
We do have a gong , though.
Caleb Agee (00:53):
Yes, we make some noise, we bump the music, but
our upstairs neighbors- the kidsup there, give us a run for
their money.
Brandon Welch (01:00):
Well, it's a pogo stick school, it's a pogo stick
gym they call that.
Caleb Agee (01:05):
I mean sure Training for the Olympics is what it
sounds like today, directlyabove my office is the playroom,
I think, and so we wereprepping this episode and it was
thumping.
Brandon Welch (01:15):
It was thumping.
It was thumping, thumping asyou do on a pogo stick.
Hey, this is the place where wehelp you eliminate waste in
advertising, grow your businessand achieve the big dream.
And today we're going to giveyou a little nerd hack called
CPM, and if you've never heardof it, this is going to be
really helpful for you.
Yes, if you've ever thoughtabout buying advertising or any
(01:35):
sort of media, or sizing up justhow loud you have to make noise
to really get attention, and soit is going to go nerd
territory.
So you've been warned.
But we're going to take thecomplex thing and make it simple
so that you can put it to usetoday.
Caleb Agee (01:51):
Yeah, Anybody who's spending money on marketing
should understand this conceptthough.
Absolutely.
I don't think it's.
We're going to keep it simple,right at some level, well enough
that you can understand it.
Brandon Welch (02:02):
I'll take that back.
We're actually de-nerding thisbecause nerds will kind of use
it and throw this term aroundand you're like, oh cool.
Caleb Agee (02:10):
Is that good or bad or what Great?
I got a CPM of whatever.
Brandon Welch (02:14):
So you've probably heard of CPM if you've
spent dollars on advertising.
If you haven't, I would take areally strong look at who's
selling you advertising and askthem why in the heck they
haven't talked to you about CPM.
Because it's very important.
We're calling it the gasmileage of your marketing
because it is the quickestnumber that just expresses how
far your dollar is going interms of times your ad is seen.
Caleb Agee (02:38):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (02:38):
Some advertising platforms have much, much, much
higher CPMs than others.
Some are really efficient.
Have low CPMs Doesn't mean it'sthe only metric that matters,
but it is very quickly one youwant to understand.
Caleb Agee (02:51):
Yeah, dollar per person or thousands of people
Dollar per time you're at is CPM.
Brandon Welch (03:00):
CPM, that's a Latin acronym.
It's cost per milli.
Milli being the Latin partSounds fancy, but it just means
thousand.
Milli means 1,000.
And so, literally interpreted,it's cost per thousand times
your ad is seen.
Why should you care, Caleb?
Caleb Agee (03:19):
You know it's really easy to get caught up in nerd
talk.
I talk to a lot of businessesthat maybe aren't our clients
yet.
Brandon Welch (03:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (03:29):
And these people.
They get stuck and get sold byimpressions and they get sold by
clicks and CPMs, that andthey're all just big numbers
that kind of shoot over theadvertiser's head, the business
owner's head, and it's reallyeasy to get lost in that and be
like, wow, that sounds good, butwhat does it actually mean for
the business at the end of theday?
(03:49):
And that's a big miss.
The biggest thing isunderstanding how many people
and how often you can afford toreach them.
If you can't understand howmany people you're reaching and
where, how far your budget'sgoing to go, then you you're
missing a major factor in theefficiency of your media.
(04:11):
So yeah.
Brandon Welch (04:12):
So it's yeah, take out, take out all the the
targeting and all this the hypethat somebody is trying to sell
you about their platform, andthen you just go cool, uh,
sounds awesome, what's the CPM?
And then you just go cool,sounds awesome, what's the CPM?
And we're going to get to this.
My mind goes immediately to alot of the streaming
conversations and the OTT.
Yes, because it sounds awesome.
(04:33):
Why wouldn't you want targetedto the exact zip codes that you
believe that your customers livein?
Why wouldn't you wantbehavioral targeting, like they
go to Target and they would be agood customer for you too.
Caleb Agee (04:46):
Why wouldn't.
Brandon Welch (04:46):
You want to target specific brands, owners
of brand vehicles?
Well, the reason you wouldn'tis because it's like 50 times
more expensive per time your adis seen and at some point that
extra premium you're payingversus a very non-targeted,
non-fancy media.
You could have gotten themanyway just by buying a bunch of
the non-targeted, non-fancymedia.
(05:06):
You could have gotten themanyway just by buying a bunch of
the non-targeted media right,exactly.
Just by buying the billboard orsometimes the broadcast, or
sometimes even some digital,some digital.
Yeah, even like Facebook, andit's like people tend to think,
ooh, I only watch Hulu now, soI'm going to go to Hulu and it's
like a lot of platforms becauseof what it takes to, what it
(05:28):
costs to maintain them and payfor the premium content and,
frankly, how greedy theshareholders are, they have to
charge a supply and demandfactor that is way, way, way
more expensive per person.
Seeing your ad.
Caleb Agee (05:42):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (05:43):
So did I leave anything out there so far?
I don't, I don't think so.
Caleb Agee (05:46):
Fun fact mille influenced the word mile in the
english language.
The english mile means it wasfrom mille passes, which is
latin for uh one, sorry 1000paces.
So our mile used to beinfluenced by how long it took.
You know, a thousand paceswould go.
(06:06):
Fun fact.
What's a pace?
Well, they standardized itlater, but in the Roman thing it
was like how long your stridewas.
Brandon Welch (06:16):
So probably four feet, Three, four feet yeah
something like that.
Caleb Agee (06:20):
Anyways, eventually they used rods and poles in the
old English system when theyformalized it.
So that's some actual nerdstuff.
But I found that while I wasdoing some research and I
thought it was fun.
Brandon Welch (06:31):
Well, it's your cost per mile.
Caleb Agee (06:33):
Your cost per mile and back to the it just comes
full circle.
Brandon Welch (06:36):
Yeah, back to the gas analogy, the gas allergy.
Okay, so let's do some math.
Since Professor Agee is here,take us from history to math
there.
Caleb Agee (06:47):
Okay, so we're going to just really quickly
calculate a CPM together.
Brandon Welch (06:53):
You don't need a calculator.
Caleb Agee (06:54):
You don't need a calculator.
Don't pull over your car rightnow.
I'm going to keep it reallyround numbers so that you can
keep this going.
But let's say you spent $1,000on any media I'm not going to
name it because I don't reallywant you to be biased by that
$1,000 on any media and you got50,000 impressions.
Okay, what's an impression?
Brandon Welch (07:14):
Brandon, why didn't we go here yet?
Caleb Agee (07:17):
Yes.
Brandon Welch (07:18):
An impression is.
Your ad was seen.
Yes, well, theoretically it wasseen, it was displayed, you
paid for it to be delivered.
Caleb Agee (07:27):
On a screen or something or somewhere.
Brandon Welch (07:28):
Yeah, let's get really clear about that.
So if there's 12,000 magazinesprinted and you have an ad on
one of those pages in themagazine, that's 12,000
impressions, except for theprint.
Folks tend to jack that up byfour because they say, ooh, you
know, four to five people.
Caleb Agee (07:43):
It's set on the coffee table.
Brandon Welch (07:45):
Yeah, four people watch that, so they'll say
that's four impressions.
But you know what did you payfor?
The print ad?
Caleb Agee (07:49):
Yeah, make sure you ask that question, by the way.
Brandon Welch (07:51):
By times the circulation, which is how many
people saw it.
That's print.
If there's 50,000 people thatwatch the news at 6 pm and your
ad is in that news program.
That is 80,000 impressions, or80,000 times your ad was seen.
(08:12):
And, by the way, all the peoplethat measure impressions have
some sort of fancy extrapolationon it.
So the TV folks will say ohwell, there's an average of 1.2
people in a room.
Caleb Agee (08:25):
So that was 1.2 impressions.
Brandon Welch (08:27):
Um, it's good to be aware of that.
Yeah, and I don't think one isany more loosey goosey than the
other.
I think they're probably allrelatively extrapolated.
Caleb Agee (08:40):
I would say the print one is the one I would be
the most careful of, becauseI've seen it 10 or 12x'd before.
Brandon Welch (08:47):
You want to ask what their multiplier is on the
circulation.
What's?
Caleb Agee (08:49):
their multiplier.
So circulation is important Ifthey print 10,000 copies of that
magazine it's good to know thatyou're only in 10,000 books.
Yes, and they're saying if it'sa 10x, they're saying 100,000
people see it.
It's like eh, I don't know,maybe but it's good to know that
it was only in 10,000 books,right.
Brandon Welch (09:09):
And they are the rating folks and the measurement
folks are relatively scientific.
There's some respect and honorto the way they're doing it.
They're statisticians by trade.
So there is a method to themadness by trade.
So there is a method to themadness.
And then digital impressions,which, frankly, are probably the
(09:30):
most pound for pound like-.
Caleb Agee (09:32):
Standardized.
Brandon Welch (09:33):
Standardized because with the exception of
robots, they can tell you.
Facebook, for example, can tellyou when the ad server fired
and loaded that actual image andtext and that ad ID.
Caleb Agee (09:46):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (09:46):
Or on YouTube.
They can tell you that you knowthe video played or how long it
played, or you know all thatstuff.
So it's just, the ad wasdisplayed somewhere, somewhere.
Caleb Agee (09:56):
Yeah, back to someone, back to the map.
You got 50,000 impressions.
We spent $1,000.
We got 50,000 impressions.
So to calculate your cost perthousand, we got fifty thousand
impressions.
Um, so to calculate your costper thousand, we've got to take
that fifty thousand and divideit by one thousand.
So easy numbers.
It's fifty, okay?
Um, so we divide our onethousand dollars by the fifty,
which is our fifty thousandimpressions and we get a cpm of
(10:20):
twenty dollars.
That is our.
Brandon Welch (10:22):
Our cpm will be twenty dollars cost per thousand
.
I can imagine $1,000 going intomy calculator.
Divide it by $50, and it wouldsay $20.
Caleb Agee (10:29):
Yes, does your calculator work like that?
It's working.
Brandon Welch (10:32):
Yeah, good, so let's talk about some standard
CPMs.
That's how you figure it outDivide the number of impressions
by $1,000, and then divide yourrate by whatever number.
That is so Facebook andInstagram today.
Now this has changed and itwill continue to change.
Frankly, it used to be higherand at times of high season
demand, like where there's a lotof people, a lot of advertisers
(10:53):
trying to advertise more,increasing their budgets, the
competition goes up.
Caleb Agee (10:57):
Right before Christmas election season, all
those things.
Brandon Welch (11:00):
Yep, but it's a wide range.
But on the low end it's goingto be in the $8 to $10 range and
then on the high end it's goingto be the $30 to $50 range.
Yeah, within Facebook, the moreyou target we're going to talk
about this in a second but themore you target and the smaller
the area and the smaller thedemographic target you get at,
you generally will pay more.
Caleb Agee (11:21):
The other thing in Facebook and a couple of these
other medias is they havemultiple campaign types.
And so if you say, hey,facebook, I want the action of
somebody clicking on my ad or Iwant the action of somebody
filling out a form, your CPM isgoing to be much higher.
But if you're, if you say heyFacebook, um, I want, I want as
many people as possible.
(11:42):
What they're actually lookingat for you is get them a low CPM
.
That's literally whatFacebook's algorithm is going to
try to do, so if you're doing areach or broad awareness type
of campaign on Facebook?
Yep, that's what they call it.
That's what they call it.
Brandon Welch (11:54):
Yep, great, google Display Network is really
the same.
So Google Display, now I'mgoing to call these.
In the $3 to $20 CPM it couldbe really, really low.
Caleb Agee (12:10):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (12:12):
When we say display, this is the ads that I
think everybody would agree theygloss over a lot.
Yeah, think about you're onyour favorite news site.
It could be CNN, it could beFox, it could be whatever you
want, and all of the news sites.
See what I did.
(12:32):
There have like these littlewindows that ads pop up in, and
it could be for somepharmaceutical drug, it could be
for some concert coming to town, it could be literally anything
, and Google's just shoving theads in to this window.
But, they're like little bannerads.
Caleb Agee (12:48):
I see them when I look up recipes a lot.
Yeah, recipes, those blogrecipe websites have tons of ads
on them, these kind of displayads.
Brandon Welch (12:58):
They can go really low if you just load up
your budget and say put themanywhere and everywhere, but 3
to 20.
Youtube has gotten really goodactually 6 to 25.
I would say the campaigns we'reseeing are more like 6 to 15.
Lately TV local broadcast cango if you have a really really
(13:20):
strong station in like amedium-sized market and you're
talking about like news andlocal programming, you can go
down to $3 to $5.
On the higher end, when you'retalking about prime time, it can
be $20 to $30-ish.
But generally the TV campaignsand the strategies we teach on
this podcast are going to be inthat $3 to $10 cost per thousand
(13:40):
.
Caleb Agee (13:41):
How comparable is radio?
Oh, we didn't put radio in here.
Brandon Welch (13:44):
I would call radio like 8 to 20.
So radio usually doesn't get asgood as TV, but it's still very
good in the grand scheme.
Yeah, ott and streaming.
For all of you who have beenwondering why we don't talk a
ton about streaming, this is whyMost I work and have worked
with some of the best and mostcapable people and the highest
(14:06):
end platforms in streaming.
It is really fancy and it does areally good job of like finding
this really really, really,really specific person and you
think, oh, that's great, becauseI'm selling yoga and you know
60-year-old dudes don't do yogaand it's like, probably true.
However, what if I told you youwere paying $55 per thousand
(14:26):
times your ad was seen, versusfive on another platform?
The 60-year-old dude and the30-year-old gal who does yoga is
in that smaller or that biggergroup, but for much cheaper.
Yeah, so streaming can work.
There's definitely some casesand there's some times we use it
, but that's why, in general, wedon't go to it for a branding
(14:49):
or a tomorrow customer mechanism.
It's just so dadgum expensiveto be seen by the masses.
Caleb Agee (14:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's important to think about.
Our research shows a range oflike 35 to 65.
It's probably actually 40 to onup 35 to 65.
Brandon Welch (15:04):
It's probably actually 40 to on up For the
people reached.
We would be spending.
You know we might be spending$100,000 on a local service
company for a broadcast.
To reach the same amount ofpeople, we'd have to spend a
million in streaming.
Caleb Agee (15:18):
Yeah, isn't that wild.
We're talking about 10x.
Brandon Welch (15:20):
Yeah, and I'm talking about on an annual basis
.
Caleb Agee (15:22):
Yeah, that is why we tend to lean on broadcasts.
And, by the way, it still works.
Yeah, it still works.
It is growing companies rightand left.
You can walk these halls andyou'll hear stories all day long
, every day.
Brandon Welch (15:35):
We have a very strong nerd, digital nerd, who's
very, very savvy here and hewas talking this week and he's
like man.
Before I came here I would havejust called complete BS on
broadcast On TV, on any of thistraditional stuff that you guys
have been talking about, and hegoes and he's the guy turning
the knobs on a lot of theseplatforms, so he's seeing in
(15:56):
real time how well our clientsare doing and there's a clear
divide between the ones who arewell-branded and broadcast.
And they're getting three tofour times the profitability on
their marketing.
Caleb Agee (16:09):
We asked him, we were like are you a believer?
Now he's like oh yeah, he goesyeah 100%.
Brandon Welch (16:13):
This is a nerd.
I mean, this is your.
Yeah, this is your.
Caleb Agee (16:16):
Before he was here, he was a Google nerd.
Yes, running a place in Googleads.
Brandon Welch (16:20):
We say Pride, yeah, and love, yes, and the
highest amount of like respectNerd's a good thing.
Caleb Agee (16:25):
Yes.
Hey billboards One of the mostefficient medias, yeah.
Brandon Welch (16:32):
Billboard.
Actually technically there'snot one that really beats it.
Caleb Agee (16:35):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (16:35):
If you get a billboard in a high traffic area
, I've seen them as low as $2,but I would say easily $2 to $10
.
Like I don't know that there'sanything much higher than 10
you're going to find, even in ain a rural area.
So yeah, Uh, billboards are wayto reach a lot of people for
cheap um streaming audio, solike Spotify and stuff,
(16:59):
definitely 20 plus.
Caleb Agee (17:01):
Yeah.
Um again remember that's on thehigh side of even what.
If you take its broadcastcomparison, radio was what?
10 to 20?
Brandon Welch (17:10):
yeah streaming audio starts at 20, probably
goes up from there so here's thekicker what is the most
expensive type of advertising?
Google search ads, holy smokes,anybody want to take a guess
wait, wait, yeah, say your guess, think of your guess.
Say it out loud In the car.
Caleb Agee (17:27):
Right now.
Right now I can pull up.
Brandon Welch (17:31):
We have hundreds of thousands of Google ads
dollars running right now, andif I averaged out the highest
and the lowest, it would besomewhere in the $600 to $700
CPM range Okay, to $700 CPMrange, okay.
There are a few that are loweron the $500 range, but they're
most of them are in like the 800to 1200 range per thousand
(17:52):
people reached.
Why is that?
Well, obviously Google has tomake money, but there are way,
way, way, way fewer people todaysearching for washing machines,
like this moment in time.
Then there are people who arenot searching for washing
machines.
It'd be like 1,000 to one,right, and so there's maybe in a
given town there might be a fewhundred people per day who need
(18:15):
a washing machine.
Well, that's very, very, verytargeted inventory, high value,
because they're very close tothe sale if you're looking for
washing machines or appliancestore companies or whatever.
Very close to the sale ifyou're looking for washing
machines or appliance storecompanies or whatever.
But it is a very, very, verypoor way to reach a lot of
people at once.
So this is why search is almostalways in the today customer
(18:35):
category.
You cannot brand yourself, youcannot become known among the
masses, because the masses willnever Google your thing enough
unless they already know what itis.
Caleb Agee (18:45):
And at that point.
Brandon Welch (18:46):
You don't need to be well-branded, you don't need
to be in the Google searchmasses will never Google your
thing enough unless they alreadyknow what it is.
Caleb Agee (18:49):
Yeah, and that at that point you don't need to be,
you don't need to be in theGoogle.
Brandon Welch (18:51):
But yeah, google ads are a hundred times more
expensive to reach people at abare minimum than than their
broadcast component or or evenFacebook right, even Facebook
and YouTube and stuff.
Caleb Agee (19:00):
And don't hear us say that Google ads don't work.
Yeah, they do work and youshould probably be there,
depending on what your industryand market is.
But, um, we, we help makemillions of dollars on google
ads every day, every day.
Um, that's right, but you needto be aware that if you live in
google ads, if that's the onlyplace you're trying to build
your company, you are doing itat the cost of 100 times the
(19:27):
efficiency, or 100 times lessthe efficiency, as another media
.
Brandon Welch (19:31):
Yeah.
Caleb Agee (19:32):
And so that is a dangerous place to only be.
Brandon Welch (19:37):
So the rule of thumb is that the more targeted
the media is, the more expensiveit's going to be in the CPM
land, going back to the CPMfactor.
So that's why we call it thegas mileage.
Caleb Agee (19:49):
And it's really just the old supply and demand.
You remember economics class?
Brandon Welch (19:54):
Yes.
Caleb Agee (19:54):
Less supply, more demand.
Yes, you're going to pay more.
Brandon Welch (19:58):
And really this is going off topic for a second.
And then Caleb says then whyare you even doing it?
But also the targeting of yourmessage can make that that that
happen.
So even if I'm on a really lowcpm media, let's just say it was
broadcast and I'm talking aboutsomething that only a small
amount of people care about, saywashing machines well again,
(20:21):
only a couple hundred of thosepeople.
If I were advertising the entiremarket at once, could
potentially care.
But if I make you laugh and Ientertain you, then everybody
cares.
And then I can sneak in thewashing machine ad and I get the
people who wanted washingmachines and I also get the
people who didn't give a flipabout washing machines today to
at least finish that ad, likingme, feeling good about me and
(20:44):
one day preferring me, right,yep, and that's what we call
tomorrow marketing.
Caleb Agee (20:49):
Tomorrow marketing.
And just kind of to wrap allthat up, is usually you'll be
focused on CPMs as one of yourmain metrics when you're doing
tomorrow marketing, when that isthe business objective of that
marketing effort you're reaching.
tomorrow customers, your goalwill be to get the largest
amount of people daily and inparentheses, behind that is for
(21:10):
the least amount of money right,and so what we're going to do
is we're going to try to getthat CPM cranked down as low as
we can, while we keep ourfrequency as consistent as we
can.
Brandon Welch (21:22):
Yes, which brings us to the very important
distinctions, disclaimers, ifyou like.
So CPM is important because ittells you about the impressions
delivered, but it doesn'tnecessarily tell you about the
unique amount of people reached.
Meaning CPM is an expression ofimpressions, not people, and
that is.
(21:42):
Those terms are interchangedtoo often in advertising.
They think I'm reaching athousand people.
No, no.
Your ad was seen a thousandtimes.
That could mean you reached oneperson 1,000 times.
One person saw your ad athousand times Unlikely, but
that could be.
Cpm doesn't distinguish betweenthat or 10 people seeing it a
hundred times, or a hundredpeople seeing it 10 times, or a
(22:02):
thousand people seeing it onlyone time.
All of those things were 1,000impressions.
It's just you were missing thereach component there.
Caleb Agee (22:13):
Frequency as well.
Reach and frequency right yeah.
Brandon Welch (22:15):
So reach, going back to the ratings, will have
an algorithm for how many uniquepeople were reached in a
program.
So just do some basic maththere.
If a program had 50,000 peoplewatching it and the ratings
people knew that and they do50,000 people were watching this
(22:36):
program and you put an ad twotimes in the same program, only
50,000 people would be reached,but it would be 100,000
impressions.
Yeah Right, that's good.
And the frequency?
would be reached, but it wouldbe 100,000 impressions.
Yeah, that's good, and thefrequency would be two in that
time window, right?
Caleb Agee (22:49):
So you get in big danger with this impressions
mindset on digital medias,especially because of the repeat
impressions right?
Brandon Welch (23:01):
You want repetition?
You do If you were trying tobecome known, liked and trusted
in your market and if you weretrying to win over that tomorrow
customer, you cannot do it bybeing seen and heard once in a
while.
Even if you have a phenomenalad, you need some repetition to
that.
You need some repetition tothat.
You need some repetition tothat.
You see what I did there.
So not all impressions arecreated equal, some things.
(23:22):
So let's say you're looking attwo different medias and let's
just say it's maybe YouTubeversus broadcast.
That's a really real comparison.
Right now you would want tothink through okay, is this
(23:43):
impression video plus audio orvisual plus audio or audio only
or visual only?
So video or visual plus audiowould be like obviously TV ads
and digital video.
Audio only would be obviouslyradio or streaming radio.
One side note there I promiseyou we don't have time to go
into this, but neuroscience saysthat things we hear are much,
much, much easier to rememberthan things we see Everybody's
(24:06):
going but what about?
a picture is worth a thousandwords.
It's actually notneurologically or scientifically
true.
Caleb Agee (24:12):
I think it's more interpretive.
A picture is an impression but,it's not memorable Just because
you can describe it in athousand words you can't
re-describe my words in athousand words.
All you have is the words I say.
Brandon Welch (24:33):
Yes, now I'm not saying that some people don't
have a better learning abilitywhen they see something visually
.
I'm saying, when it comes tolong-term recall of names and
nouns and places, that we wantpeople to remember that our
businesses exist.
It is far easier to get them todo that when you use words, and
particularly unpredictablewords, words that aren't common,
because it sticks out.
Caleb Agee (24:51):
My family quotes things all the time.
My kids quote movies and showsthey have not seen because my
wife and I quote them all thetime, yes, and what you need to
do is look at your ads.
Are they quotable?
Yeah, are they worth repeating?
Are they fun?
Are they interesting?
Do you say it in an unusual waythat sticks in your brain?
Brandon Welch (25:11):
I met with a legendary advertiser.
Today, every person in our townthat is older than 20 years old
could quote this guy's ads andhe told me.
He told me somebody made himsay this line and has the end of
his.
All of his ads were, and I'mnot kidding.
And he said, somebody told meto say that and I thought it was
the dumbest thing ever.
And he goes, you don't know howmany times a day and he hasn't
(25:35):
advertised in years a day a day,people still come up to him and
say that and it's the dumbestthing and it's very quotable.
So back to impressions.
They're not all created equal.
You want, if you're doing anyamount of branding, just trust
me, you want an audio componentsomewhere, consistent and
repetitive, Repetitive.
Caleb Agee (25:54):
I almost did it, you got it.
Brandon Welch (25:57):
So think audiovisual is the best.
Audio only if you had to choosebetween that and visual, only
for tomorrow customers and forrepeatable, quotable,
rememberable phrases.
Here's something else you'regoing to want to consider In the
world of digital ads is thisskippable or non-skippable?
One of the great strengths andit sounds like we're all for
(26:18):
broadcast and we're not, it'slike we do it all but one of the
great strengths of broadcast isthat they're very intrusive.
You cannot skip an ad unlessit's been recorded on DVR.
But, like live news, livesports, people don't record
those things.
So the ad plays and everybodyhears it, versus seeing six
seconds of it and skipping it.
So when you're comparing it toYouTube, even though the CPM may
(26:39):
be the same of the two, if youhad a really good broadcast,
really good YouTube, you go eh,but the YouTube had a before the
, before the skip showed up, ora six second ad non-skippable.
YouTube will almost never be thefull 30 seconds, and that is
worth something.
Now you can actually go intothe YouTube platform and say on
average how much of mycommercial was watched.
(26:59):
I'm proud to say one of ourreally good YouTube advertisers
has an 85% view through rate, soit's almost as good as TV.
But that is not common and it'svery, very rare for you to for
anybody to be able to say that.
Caleb Agee (27:12):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (27:13):
So let me see here I was talking about
skippable versus non-skippable.
Yeah, think about thumbablelike a Facebook ad.
Caleb Agee (27:26):
Yeah.
It's even worse than skippable,because you don't even really
have to watch any of it, youjust flip past it.
Yeah, and your, you know,survivor, thrive.
Brain is flying by and thatimpression of the image, or the
first screen of the video thatyou're showing me, or the first
word, I'm instantly, whether Irealize or not, subconsciously
(27:47):
flying past it and determiningwhether it's worth stopping for.
Brandon Welch (27:50):
Yes.
Caleb Agee (27:50):
And, but that still counts as an impression.
Caleb the scroller yeah, youknow me If Caleb scrolled.
Brandon Welch (27:55):
That's what he would do.
Caleb Agee (27:56):
He doesn't scroll, not really.
Brandon Welch (27:58):
He, he's a, he's a, he's a man slave to his
habits, and they are very goodquality habits, unlike the rest
of us.
So hey, think about this.
You can go and look at on anyof these video creatives you can
.
It will say how many times thead was delivered.
That's the impression.
That's the cost per thousandimpressions.
But if your YouTube videoplaythrough rate was only 50%
(28:22):
and you're comparing it to TV,say, and it was like, oh,
youtube got $8, and so did TV,you would divide that by 50%.
And you're comparing it to TV,say, and it was like, oh,
youtube got $8, and so did TV,you would divide that by 50%.
Caleb Agee (28:31):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (28:32):
And it would be like oh, YouTube was $16, cost
$1,000, because that's theamount of people.
Caleb Agee (28:36):
You can compare to the TV that watched the dang
thing Because they never got tothe end of your ad on.
Brandon Welch (28:41):
YouTube, youtube.
If your media rep cannot findthese numbers for you, tell them
to go get some dadgum training.
Tell them to come to the Maven.
Marketing Podcast or watch someYouTube videos, and I love you
guys, but if they can't tell youthis stuff, that's their job
and they need to be able tomeasure and pull this up.
If your agency can't do it,fire them, because they
(29:02):
shouldn't be an agency.
Send them to the MavenMarketing Podcast.
Caleb Agee (29:08):
Okay, send them this video.
Brandon Welch (29:09):
Yeah, so all that stuff is easily findable in the
ad dashboard if it's digital,or the ratings platform of any
TV or radio station that you'reworking with.
Last thing, Last thing aboutimportant distinctions that
impression is only worth abranding impression if you know
(29:33):
it's going to have a repetitiveaudience.
We use the math of we want asmany people to see it four times
in a week as possible.
So we're saying in radiothere's a formula that we
basically if you've got 40 ads aweek, you're going to get a
four frequency on most stationsbetween the hours of 6 am and 7
(29:54):
pm.
Tv it's a little more fluid,you kind of have to let the
program tell you.
But if it's news or somethingthat people watch every day,
you're going to need an ad on inthat program every day to score
that four frequency right.
Because not every person watchesevery day, but on average they
(30:16):
come back multiple times perweek.
It's a little lessstraightforward with Facebook
and YouTube.
Sometimes you have to put abudget out there and then let it
, after a week or two, tell youhow many people it's delivering
to.
The frequency is the numberthey'll call that.
Let it, after a week or two,tell you how many people it's
delivering to.
Um and what I'm.
Caleb Agee (30:27):
the frequency is the number, though They'll call
that.
Brandon Welch (30:30):
Yep.
Caleb Agee (30:31):
And so you'll look for a three frequency and
they'll say three people orpeople have seen an average of
three times inside of thetimeframe that you've given it.
So you also have to payattention to that, because if
you're looking at last 30 daysor if you're looking at year two
date right, if you have a 90day thing, you need to pay
attention to that frequencybecause three times in in 90
(30:52):
days not good, not great, notgood.
Brandon Welch (30:54):
Yeah, you would in 90 days.
You literally want it to belike 20 or 30 yeah, yeah, that's
pretty rough excuse me, um, sothink like the, the, the hack
and like the best.
Um, like, just go to.
If you're a local business in alocal region, pick one program,
fill it up.
(31:15):
If it's radio, it's 40 spots aweek.
If it's tv, it's five spots aweek per program that you can
afford to do.
If it's digital, most digitaltargets are going to be 200,000
or 300,000 people.
If it's Facebook or YouTube,you're going to have to be
spending $5,000 to $10,000 amonth to be able to hit that.
(31:35):
I'm just giving you some basicnumbers.
But look at it afterwards andif you're not getting that
frequency per week on, say,youtube or Facebook, you need to
shrink your audience target oradd budget so that that money is
concentrated in the right way.
It's more concentrated.
Caleb Agee (31:50):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (31:50):
Yeah, and boy, we could do a whole episode on how
to adjust for that.
And if you have any questionsabout hey, how would I find that
, send them to us.
We'll answer them.
Caleb Agee (32:00):
We'll do a little video for you or something.
Brandon Welch (32:03):
And then just know that if you're doing that
radio or sorry, if you're doingthat tomorrow, customer you're
trying to win over those peopleas we talk about in this podcast
.
You want repetition and Iforgot to say this earlier
because liberty, liberty,liberty, liberty.
Caleb Agee (32:20):
That's repetition right Liberty, liberty, liberty.
Brandon Welch (32:22):
Yeah, so you want to recap?
Caleb Agee (32:26):
Yes, all right.
Number one CPM.
Use it to size up the bigdifferences between any medias.
It's the great equalizerbetween all medias, so you
should make sure you ask theperson that sells it to you, and
you can definitely see thistransparently in the dashboards.
But we talked about the nuancesbetween how you would maybe
(32:48):
compare these on a digital mediato a broadcast media.
Yeah, number two make sure youcheck your CPMs monthly or after
the schedules deliver, just tomake sure your efficiency isn't
changing dramatically and itwill sometimes.
Brandon Welch (33:04):
Yeah, these seasonal pockets.
Summer it tends to go.
Cpm tends to go up becausethere's less people using media,
but you've got the same budgetbut it probably reached less
people.
In holiday season, theaudiences tend to go up because
people are inside and it'swinter but there's more
advertisers competing so.
Facebook, google, jack up theprice of delivering those
(33:26):
impressions and, by the way, sodoes streaming.
Caleb Agee (33:28):
Yeah, and then the third just remember that not all
impressions are created equal.
Yeah, and there are threesecond impressions.
There's a single graphicalimpression.
Yeah, when you're looking atthat recipe, how much of
impression does?
That have on you Versussomebody singing Liberty,
liberty, liberty, something likethat Liberty, yeah.
Brandon Welch (33:51):
Yeah, bibbidi-moochoo, we hope that
that just gives you some contextand some immediate math to
level out all this confusionfrom all these people trying to
sell you all these things.
But we're here to help, so sendus your questions, say, hey,
would you do this or this orthis or this?
Right, we're here to help, sosend us your questions, say, hey
, would you do this or this?
Caleb Agee (34:05):
or this or this right.
Brandon Welch (34:06):
Yeah, and soon, like next week, we will have a
link for you to join themastermind if you want to start
bringing your stuff and workingthese problems through like real
time, like some of ourconsultants here Saying, okay,
this is great theoreticalknowledge and you're teaching me
(34:26):
the basics on the podcast, butwhat I want to start putting
this, how would I start applyingthis to what I'm actually doing
now?
Caleb Agee (34:30):
Yeah.
Brandon Welch (34:30):
And we're going to pull up the dashboards with
you and you're going to get, youknow, live time with our people
, kind of like a podcast madeexactly for you.
But we're working it out infront of you and you know a
couple other dozen businessowners and everybody's learning
from each other.
So we are excited to say thatis here.
The link will be on the nextpodcast.
You can take that to the bankand I promise that at three
(34:51):
o'clock on Wednesday, april 23rd, when we recorded this, okay
and that, yeah, that's going tobe, that's going to be a thing.
Caleb Agee (34:59):
So until then, yeah, if you do need help or if you
have questions about any of thisum, send us an email.
Maven monday at frank andmavencom, we'd love to answer
them.
Uh, if they're relevant for themasses, we may answer it live
on the on the podcast here, andwe'd we'd love to be a part of
that.
Um also drop any questions youhave in the comments I think
(35:22):
there's some comments we I wouldlove to see heat up them algos
yeah, I'd love to see that ithelps us out, if you would.
It doesn't have to be anythingtremendous, but a good comment
here or there.
Brandon Welch (35:33):
Tell Caleb you like his haircut.
Caleb Agee (35:34):
Yeah, tell Brandon his frames look great.
Brandon Welch (35:37):
Yes, that's good, let's do that.
All right, we'll be back hereevery Monday answering your
real-life marketing questions,because marketers who cannot
teach you why are just a fancylie.
Have a great week.
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