Remain In Light (Talking Heads)

What if an album recorded over four decades ago holds the secrets to navigating today's musical landscape? Join us as we untangle the fascinating complexities of Talking Heads' "Remain in Light." From the Bahamas to New York City, we track the album's creation under the guidance of producer Brian Eno. 

The energetic dynamics of the album reveals the democratic spirit driving the band's creative process. We dissect the collaborative tensions among members, spotlighting Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth's contributions and the pivotal role they played in keeping the band alive. 

As we explore originality and influence in music, we highlight the Afrobeat inspiration that threads through the work of bands like Vampire Weekend and The Clash. From the spoken-word style of "Seen and Not Seen" to the iconic "Once in a Lifetime," we celebrate David Byrne's genius and enduring impact. As our music tournament heats up, these tracks exemplify the album's mesmerizing brilliance and the rich tapestry of sounds that define Talking Heads' legacy.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
wagwan fam, that's what the kids are saying.
Don't question me on it, um, soare they not saying that?
Don't show me anyway oh well,anyway, well, wagwan fam, anyway
.
And uh, hello and welcome tomccartney and goal.
This is the podcast that takesa wonderful album, utter
brilliance, that puts it througha sporting knockout format and

(00:22):
sees what's won.
That that's the basic gist,isn't it Brett?
It's basically the gist.
You got it.
That's basically the gist.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I don't want to make it any more complicated than it
needs to be.
That's a great rundown of thegist.
Excellent, yeah, that was thegist Gist summary.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Can you tell us what album we're doing this evening,
mr Brett?
Oh no, actually do you knowguests like a proper host would?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
so so with me on on this exciting episode we've got
brett's wrong album.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sorry move on like what you did there, clever and
guy.
How did I get here?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
on the, wasn't it in?

Speaker 1 (00:55):
73, but I'm sure is that yes was that blocked?
Yeah did you come out?
Did you have to go on the theunderground?

Speaker 5 (01:01):
yeah, I had to uber it.
In the end, it was just anightmare are you having
short-term memory issues again?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Me, no, guy, you can't remember how you got here.
Oh no, Beautiful, lovely.

Speaker 5 (01:12):
Sorry, I'm warming up .

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Very poor.
This evening we're talkingabout Talking Heads.
Slash the Talking Heads.
Absolute 1980 classic.
Die-hard, unassailable classic.
Absolute 1980 classic.
Die hard, unassailable classic.
Remain in Light Brett.
Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Runners and Riders on Remain in Light.
Steve, thanks for handing overto me.
Remain in Light is the TalkingHeads.
Fourth, studio album it wasproduced by Brian Eno and
recording began in 1980 atCompass Point Studio in the
Bahamas.
Mmm.
Lovely with later sessions atSigma Sound in New York City.
Lovely with later sessions atsigma sound in new york city.
Talking heads are ostensiblytina wayne of bass, chris

(01:48):
franstrom's, jerry harrison, leeguitar keyboards, david burn,
vocals and guitar.
The album got to number 19 inthe billboard charts and the
album sold approximately 1million copies.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
So those are your runners and riders okay, I'm
going to take you up on onething there.
Well, two things actually.
One why, ostensibly, surely?

Speaker 2 (02:05):
ah, that was good, wasn't it?
Yeah, I put ostensibly inbecause of this album.
None of them really just stickto those instruments on this
album and we'll get to why, butthat's why I teased you with the
word ostensibly yeah, buttalking heads are actually those
four people no, no, what theyplay.
So the ostensibly was theinstrument, so so obviously,
tina Weymouth ostensibly playsbass, doesn't?

Speaker 1 (02:26):
she.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
But she plays pretty much every instrument on this
album as does the drum.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
You've passed the ostensibly test.
Thanks Well done Right Also.
And then the grammar police,just to have a quick grammar
police issue here on the the.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, I wasn't sure about that.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
The eternal question of the definite article so as
ever, there are bands like oasisand blur which are
categorically you're never goingto say the oasis or the blur
it's not going to happen.
It's very clear with them.
And then there's bands like thebeatles and the rolling stones.
You're not going to say beatlesor rolling stones, that's wrong
.
They definitely have thedefinite article.
Then there are indeed bandslike pixies, who are definitely

(03:05):
pixies, but a lot of people getit wrong and say the pixies.
Then there are also bands likepink floyd, who were the pink
floyd originally and thendropped the.
There are also bands like theverve, who were originally
called verve but then got suedand became the verve, as
discussed in previous episodes.
However, the talking heads areprobably the most ambiguous of
all bands we've ever doneregarding the definitive article
, because they are referred toboth as talking heads and the

(03:26):
talking heads by people evenwithin the band bravo beautiful
that was awesome.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
What that was?
A tour de force?
What about the, the?
Could they be called the byaccident?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
yes, sometimes people do call them the, and then,
when drunk, call them the, the,the, the, which becomes
problematic for all.
Let's be honest.
Right, shall we jump into theopening round?
Chaps the first two songs uponthis.
Let's just talk about how youfeel about this album, brett.
How do you feel about thisalbum?
What's your relationship withthis album?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Well, my relationship with this album was
non-existent before we decidedthrough this podcast and we
decided about six months ago todo it for a various number of
reasons, this record has beendelayed and delayed late, which
has been really useful, becausethe first time you listen to
this album, you're like what,what is going on?
And it takes a while tounderstand it and to process it.

(04:22):
And I'm probably I probablystill am and I've listened to it
a lot.
So that's where I'm startingwith this album so you're total
heathen?
then it's what you're not even I, just I just didn't know it, I
hadn't heard it so just anuneducated failure?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
I mean, it's not music listening.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, it's not like an easy earworm drop in to go.
Oh, that's that really catchyalbum.
The other day, the first timeyou it.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
You're not going to be able to hum the tune back to
someone, are you?
I love all those hits.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
All those big hits upon it.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Guy what's?

Speaker 5 (04:51):
your relationship with this album.
I'm quite similar.
I'm a huge Talking Heads fan,but much more of, probably, the
albums before and after, andit's always been a bit of a
blind spot, mainly because it'salways been lauded as this kind
of I was going to say it's theirmost iconic album by some
margin.
Well, yeah it is, and at thesame time it's the one that I've

(05:12):
struggled to get into the most.
Even as a kind of fan of thealt-left kind of indie,
post-punk kind of world it'sstill.
It's a fascinating album formany, many reasons.
I love their early PhoebeGibi's sort of sound and their
beginnings.
I also love how they kind ofslowly progress.
They are sort of so ahead ofthe curve.

(05:33):
No pun intended, a great pun.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
You can't help it.
Steve didn't do the puns andyou've just beautifully dropped
one in.
That is quality.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
The reason I didn't was because I didn't want to
overload you with puns.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
Way.
But you know what, Steve?
There's only time for that oncein a lifetime.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
No Tremendous, but also to the guy just very
quickly, the chap on theinternet who listened to the
first five minutes of one of ourepisodes and then left the
feedback.
These guys don't even know whatpuns are.
I lasted five minutes.
I think you're probably right alot of the time.
On reflection, a lot of themaren't puns.
They're just us trying to getthe song titles into

(06:11):
conversation in some way that wefind amusing nonetheless, fuck
you.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I think that was a Bob Dylan episode, wasn't it?
You can tell the Bob Dylan fansmight be slightly more
commotionally than others.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Who knows, I don't care what episode it was.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Beautiful, beautiful, that's a lovely, measured
riposte.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Really good.
Yes, yes.
Well, I wanted to give bothsides of the award.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
No, that was nice, I enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Good, good, right round one.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Round one.
Two songs that we are pittingagainst each other this evening
are the overload and seen andnot A terrible signal To we to
even recognize.
He would see faces in movies,on TV, in magazines and in books
.
He thought that some of thesefaces might be right for him and
that through the years, bykeeping an ideal facial

(07:35):
structure fixed in his mind orsomewhere in the back of his
mind, that he might, by force ofwill, cause his face to report,
right, ok.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
so I mean, how do you start describing this album to
somebody who's not heard?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
it before.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
It's just so dense, isn't it?
There's so much going on.
There's just a huge.

Speaker 5 (07:56):
Do you guys find the album an album of two halves?

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Oh, 100%, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
The first four tracks are just like breakneck Bangers
.
Yeah, 100%.
The first four tracks are justlike breakneck bangers kind of
amazing.
And then the second half isreally weird.
A lot of spoken word, and againthis goes back to the spoken
word yeah, and that goes back towhat I was saying about when I
was struggling to kind of, likeyou were saying, to digest it.
I guess it's like the secondhalf is a real weird one and

(08:21):
these two tracks, I think,highlight that.
The the form of the overload is.
That's a joy division song,right?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
that's the whole point, isn't it?
Did you hear the?
Do you know the reason of that?
He?

Speaker 5 (08:32):
he, I know loosely, but I don't, I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
It's extraordinary imitate, david 1980 or 79, 80,
david burn read about joydivision, read all about them
and wrote a song in the style ofJoy Division.
But he'd never heard JoyDivision.
Oh wow, because it was 1980,and you had to buy a physical
album.
They were hard to get hold ofand he hadn't got it.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
How did he nail it?
To that extent, though, it'sincredible.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
He just read about them and then wrote it from that
Insane.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
I didn't know that, yeah to Talking Heads.

Speaker 5 (09:08):
It's like it's so dour.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's a one note vocal , isn't it as well?
It's just like it's hard, it'sa hard, listen the overload.

Speaker 5 (09:15):
Cause this album, I guess, is the the way I listened
to it is like it's rhythm ismelody, right, that's kind of
that's.
That seems to be the approachand we, with this era of talking
heads.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
I had Felicuti on very, very loud while I was
painting all afternoon to get mein the mood for this.

Speaker 5 (09:34):
Nice Did you paint very fast.
I'm assuming you got the jobdone pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
I didn't paint fast.
I sort of shook my ass a lotwhile I was painting.
Was a brush?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
attached to your ass, and if so, obviously how.
That's more.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Twerk painting, that's more oferk painting
that's more than R&B.
No, I'm going to cut all ofthat out because no one wants
those images in their head ok soyes.

Speaker 5 (10:01):
So yeah, overload has that sort of very dour sort of.
Again it doesn't gel with whatI think of.
And then Seen and Not Seen hasa kind of slightly more rhythmic
approach.
Obviously it has that hip hopkind of spoken word rap flavour
to it which I know they weresort of experimenting with at
the time.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
There's so many influences in this album.
I mean there's so many, so many.
But I mean, yeah, these areboth from the second half of the
album and it's kind of almostlike the end of the party.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
It opens on a massive couple of bangers and like real
dance tunes and then it's kindof like it made me, uh, think of
the acting baby conversation wehad when we were doing the u2
and, and you know, bono keptdoing that thing of.
Ah well, you know, it's a partyfor the first half and it's
come down for the second halfand I absolutely wasn't buying
it.
But I'm sorry to cut you off,brett, but if you're pitching
that idea for this album whichbut david burn wasn't it?

(10:50):
it sticks far better with thisexactly as you said word for
word than it did with any ofthose.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
You two albums a hundred percent, okay, uh, so
how are we voting?
Let's again.
Do you want to talk about?
I mean, it's hard to knowwhat's going to go through.
Um, I I just the overload isthe only one that disappoints me
in this album.
I've listened to it a lot andit's very hard to get into and
it takes a while.
Certain songs you'll get intoquicker than others, and pretty
much all of them I've started toget into now.

(11:16):
Even, funnily enough, see, notSeen was hard to get into, but
the Overload is the only one Ijust can't.
I wouldn't listen to again,I'll be honest.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Okay, so you're voting See, Not Seen, seen and
not seen.
Yeah, I am.
Well, I'm going to vote theoverload, simply because I think
it's it wins out of them.
Those two are probably my twoleast favorite things on the
whole album, but I think thatthe overload wins, uh, by being
the more atmospheric of the two,by some considerable margin.
So that's one each there.
Which guy gives you?

Speaker 5 (11:45):
the deciding vote, sir.
So I well as I might havealluded to, this isn't my
favourite end of the album, butI think seen or not seen feels
more in keeping with the sort oftalking head spirit of
assimilating.
Okay, I guess they are bothassimilating different cultures
and different sounds, but I wantJoy Division to do the Joy

(12:06):
Division stuff I don't wanttalking heads to do it because
it doesn't sound, it doesn'tquite sound as good as From an
article he read yeah, yeah headsto do it because it doesn't
sound.
It doesn't quite soundmonastically red, yeah, yeah, I
don't know it.
Just it just sounds like a sortof a bit of a spoof, um, or a
prestige I guess.
But yeah, it's, it's splittinghairs, but uh, scene and not see
, I think has the moreexperimental fun talking heads

(12:26):
twist all right scene and notseeing goes through it takes us
to round two.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
It is seen, it's feeling seen.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
How many more bad jokes can we make using the word
seen?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
I'm just saying.
Don't want to cause a scene.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
I'm just saying hey God, yeah, that's a hyponym.
That's not the same word.
Never mind, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
I don't know what hyponym means.
I think I made up that word.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Please, no one look that up I was just trying to
impress Brett.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Move quickly on.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Move on Quickly on round two is Listening Wind,
listening Wind versus the.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
Great Curve Softly he glides among the streets and
alleys, up comes the wind thatmakes them run for cover.
He feels the time is surely nowor never recover.

Speaker 6 (13:15):
He feels the time is surely now or never.
The wind in my heart, the windin my heart.
Dust in my hair, dust in myhair, the wind in my heart, the
wind in my heart, the wind in myheart.
Drive them away.

(13:36):
Drive them away, moving on,moving on, moving on, moving on,
for the night is gonna rise up.
She's not going to describe theworld.

(13:59):
She's got messages for everyone.
She's moving the remote control.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
The hands that guide her are invisible.
Oh, that's very easy for me.
I do like Listening Wind.
It's got a kind of plaintivefeel to it, but the great curve
is just phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Do I see a pattern developing here which is going
to be a bit concerning in termsof any narrative tension
building here?
I feel like all three of thethree people present in this
recording are leaning towardsthe first half of this album
very strongly in the earlystages which is something,
something of a concern.
I'm gonna be honest it's, it'spossible.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean let's go to guy, let's see what he says oh
yeah yeah, absolutely zerotension.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Top heavy album, I think I'm not gonna lie about
it's like it may be.

Speaker 5 (15:11):
It may be seen as a classic and there's there's many
elements of it.
Mean, I think I'm not gonna lieabout it's like it may be.
It may be seen as a classic andthere's there's many elements
of it that I think are so aheadof its time.
But I just find it as alistener, I want to listen to
the first half and not thesecond half.
I might have an introspectivemood and want to, you know, let
it run on and hear that secondhalf, but you know, when you,
when you have the lyrical sortof I don't know the lyrical

(15:32):
traits of David Byrne, I kind ofwant a certain thing from him
and he does it really reallywell.
I don't want to say that anartist should only ever do one
type of thing or one type ofsound, but for me I love it when
he's just rapid and rhythmicand fast and manic, and when
he's not and he's slower.
With the odd exception of acouple of classic songs by
Talking Heads, I will alwaysfavour the up tempos, just

(15:54):
because no other band can dothem, the mania that talking
heads can do, yeah, I agreeextraordinary, extraordinary but
listening when we should sayabout the lyrics really, I mean
it's the album listening wind isagain.
Look, I tried to, I tried tounderstand that second half and
look into the lyrics of what hedid and I I know there's a lot
of train of thought and streamof consciousness, a lot of

(16:15):
stream of consciousness.
He was going through writer'sblock right.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
It comes down to the way the album was written,
doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Let's talk about that .
It's so important the way itcame together.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
I'm going to take it all the way back to a different
album, which was the album thatEno and David Byrne were doing.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Do you mean to say that Brian Flippin' Eno is
turned up again on this podcast?

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Oh, Brian Eno is everywhere.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Is he involved in?

Speaker 3 (16:39):
this somehow he's fast becoming the new Phil
Spector, isn't he?

Speaker 2 (16:41):
He really is, he is he produced the two albums
previous to this, and this isthe third album.
They weren't going have him,but then they kind of ended up
doing it anyway he kind of hewasn't.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
He heard the demos, he had the demos and decided
that he was interested wasn't?

Speaker 2 (16:54):
yeah, yeah he was doing an album with um burn.
They just went off becausethey're both I mean, if you
listen to chris france and tinaweymouth, who were the, the
rhythm section of this band.
Chris france is the drummer,the founding member, and they
are also.
They've been married for almost50 years now, I think Maybe 47,
48 years, france and Weymouth,and I think they it's really

(17:17):
interesting to listen to thembecause they're very careful to
be no, no, we really likeworking with them and
collaborating, but at points itwas very difficult to work with
both of them and they both havethis ability to really be great
collaborators and work reallywell with you and then go away
and say, yeah, we wrote that.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Can we put that?
Are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (17:35):
you're talking about, you know them talking about you
know, and burn.
So chris france and tinaweymouth would definitely say
that, um, you know, they'd begreat to collaborate with, but
then brian, you know, and davidburn would be quite bad at
saying to the well they changedthe writing credit.
That's what I mean I'd just sayto the art the cover designer
put our name as the people thatwrote it.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
The original pressings of the album say Brian
Eno, David Byrne and TalkingHeads and then subsequent
pressings of the album haseverybody's name on it.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Because, I mean, talking Heads are really a very
democratic band and they've allgot a say and they've all got a
lot of kind of ideas and this isthe perfect album for that,
because everyone is an equal.
It's so, you know, so equal,equal, this band.
And and they have gotconceptually they're a very
democratic band.
Um, but so to put it back, youknow and burn were making an

(18:22):
album called my life in the bushof ghosts and it kind of ended
a bit acrimoniously.
Acrimoniously because I thinkboth of them are quite in that
sense slightly more angularcharacters and therefore it
could fall apart because there'sno one else in the middle to
soften it.
So the rest of the band think,shit, we might split up here, we
might not do another albumbecause it's all a bit disparate

(18:42):
.
So, um, tina Weymouth organizesa jam and she phones up Brian
Eno.
So, brian, do you want to comeover and jam with us?
And Brian Eno says you know, Idon't really play musical
instrument, which is anextraordinary thing for him to
say, I don't really kind of playan instrument.
And I said, don't worry, justcome over.
So because he was kind ofobviously feeling a bit shy
about that, they decided to allplay different instruments than
they usually play.

(19:03):
So it just basically whathappened was it was kind of like
this kind of like childishenjoyment of just playing a
different instrument and playingin a really different way.
Um, and then it's got.
The jam goes really well.
They get over jerry harrisonand then they phone up david
burn and they go brian eno'shere, do you want to come over?
and he's like over within anhour because he doesn't want to

(19:24):
miss out on what's going on, andthat is, and they just, they
just jam that night.
And that's kind of one of theone of the inciting incidents to
make this album, because theyrealise that there's some really
interesting stuff to be donehere, especially playing
different instruments andplaying them in different ways
than they've played them before.
So that's where the albumstarts off, the concept of it,

(19:46):
and you get all this.
It's very much an album that'sjust jammed out and then created
in the mixing, in the mixingconsole, and and and overdubs
yeah, he said, they became humanum samplers samplers.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
That was it, yeah, because it was literally just.
We're going to play this bitover and over, and over and over
again, as if it's been sampledyeah, well, samplers didn't
exist, so they had to no, and hedid, but he did the lyrics in
the same way and there's thisfootage of him sort of sitting
there with like a tape machineand it's almost like he's.
He is just free-forming becausehe was um struggling with such
writer's block and and thethings that he then drew from

(20:22):
were were hip-hop was, you know,I mean even does a rap at one
point I'm saying and, andparticularly the one I love the
best is, is the, uh, thepreacher thing he does, you know
, he, he takes so much fromthere yeah, several, several
times.
Definitely, you know from from,because he was listening to a
lot of religious uh radio in thein the us and sort of midwest I
think.
He was in, you know, with a lotof preachers on the radio

(20:44):
declaiming and, and so he took alot of that, which which works
absolutely brilliantly, I think.
But, um, have you heard much ofmy Life in the Bush of Ghosts?

Speaker 5 (20:54):
No, I can't say I have.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's so odd because it's exactly like you know, if
you listen to like a Radioheadalbum or something and they're
probably not a good examplebecause their B-sides are great
but if you've had that thingwhere you listen to a band, you
listen to an album, you love thealbum, especially if it was
from the 90s.
Listen to an album you love thealbum, especially if it was from
the 90s.
And then you go back and youfind all the b-sides and it's
not like oasis or radioheadwhere they did like you know,
really like quality b-sides thatshould have been an album.

(21:17):
It's like you know some likeweird ambient thing that's just
like, well, we sort of did halfdid this in the studio and it's,
but it sounds like the mainalbum.
It's like an album even thoughit was made before Remain in
Light.
It sounds exactly like Remainin Light, except they're not
really songs.
They're sort of ambientnoodlings with African

(21:39):
polyrhythms and things going onin the background, and so it
sounds like someone's made aSpotify playlist of all the sort
of unfinished B-side materialfrom Remain in Light.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
It's perfectly listenable.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
But it sounds almost exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
It's so strange, okay it's very odd, because they
started the recording of thatbefore and then released it
after Romanian light, soRomanian light happens during
after that.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
It's very strange actually, I think, the other,
the big influence that needs tobe talked about before we move
on is, uh, the track from theprevious album called is imbra,
is imbra is imbra?
Yes, which is um the openingtrack, right opening track from
fear of music, I think that's itand um that you can.
You can hear, even though theysort of had to do all this

(22:26):
thinking and all this changing,all this sort of manipulating to
get where they were onremaining light.
If you listen to it, you'relike, oh yeah, that's how
remaining light's going to bethen.
And you can hear everything'sin that song that they're going
to do.
Yeah, uh, it's such a a pointer.
It's like it's like acliffhanger at the end of the
comedy series about what's goingto happen next, and you're like
, oh, that's the directionthey're taking now then.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh, it's an extraordinary decision and
they're just playing.
They're doing kind of they'rejazz ideas, aren't they?
They're just playing.
They're doing kind of jazzideas, aren't they?
They're just working on riff,working on grooves, working on,
as you said, polyrhythms, andthey don't really change chord
much.
There's maybe one or two chordsin a song you know, yeah, the
chords don't change much at alldo they.

Speaker 5 (23:02):
But yeah, the bass lines are very, very often two
or three notes, but it's justabout the rhythm and the context
.
Yeah, it's polyrhythm, isn't it?
It's polyrhythm which what ispolyrhythm?

Speaker 1 (23:12):
what is?
I was about to ask you thatquestion, so we're both asking
because I don't know it.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
I'd ask you first and then well my understanding,
let's see if god goes myunderstanding.
What's the problem?

Speaker 1 (23:23):
it's like poly.
Anything like polyamorous islots you basically you've got uh
, you know, lots of differentrhythms being played on top of
each other, so you get a coupleof songs.
I think Once in a Lifetimewould be an example where I
think Eno is starting on thethree of everybody else's one,
because he's playing a totallydifferent rhythm to what they're

(23:45):
playing so it always feelsslightly off because there are
so many different people playingrhythms on top of each other.
Am I correct, guy Langley?
You are correct, steve.

Speaker 5 (23:54):
Hooray, yes yeah, no, absolutely there's.
There's lots of that and it'sall about the um, the fact they
go in and out of alignment andthey kind of weave in and out.
Actually a really good examplewhen we get onto it.
Um, uh, which one is it now?
Let's just try to remember nowyes, so the great curve, the
great curve.
There is a video on YouTubecalled anatomy of a track.

(24:18):
Yeah, it's a visualization ofthe track, with all the poly
rhythms and the lyrics going offan African sort of trap
tapestry.
It's really fascinating.
If you want to get an ideavisually of how these, what
these work, it's a really goodway of looking at it.
Um, because it is all abouttexture and weaving lines in and
out to make a bigger picturewhat was the extraordinary

(24:38):
process to do that with nocomputer's guy.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Like this is all done analog, like the effort and the
work that goes in there.
It must have had like loads ofhands on the mixing console just
to get this done well, I,genuinely I I used to always
that this album was in like 1985or something.

Speaker 5 (24:53):
I always used to think it was later than it was.
It's when we, when we came todo the research for this, and
realised it was actually 1980,1980 for some reason yeah, it's.
It is remarkable if you thinkwhat else was coming out around
that time and how sort ofprimitive that sounded.
This sort of soundsotherworldly.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
It's extraordinary so much.
I'm going to sit a question nowand I'm going to let you answer
it.
I'm going to give you up untilthe semi-finals to answer it.
Who was recording Next Door?

Speaker 1 (25:18):
to them in 1980?
I know this, oh, okay.
Well, go on, then it's ACDCdoing Back in Black.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Back in Black is going on.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Next Door.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Incredible.
And they said, by the timethey'd done four tracks, acdc
had done a solo and that wasabout it.

Speaker 5 (25:34):
I mean extraordinary, isn't?
It Couldn't get much morecontrasting apples.
No, it's just an amazing.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Totally different those landscapes, aren't they?
But apparently a lot of theengineers the first engineer
went fuck this, this workload isway too much.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
I'm off yeah we're going too quickly.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
So he just left, so he had to get another
engineering.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
No, no no, who also thought it was too quick, but
then just shut his mouth and getthe gig.
I'm being paid, I've got nothingelse lined up.
I need to do this.
Listen.
My question.
I know we need to move on, butmy question is if this album
came out today, would culturalappropriation be on the table?

(26:12):
Because, as much as you know,white artists have taken black
music uh, right, left and center, and that's literally what rock
and roll is is based on halfthe time.
Um, this is quite specific inas much as it's you know.
Yes, they take, I meaneverything, everything they're
influenced by other than perhapswhite preachers in the lyrics
is is a direct ripoff of blackmusic.

(26:32):
In as much as you know, there'ship-hop, there's r&b, there's
funk and particularly the one Ithink which would, would raise
the most eyebrows if they did itnow, is af, is afro beats and
and sort of.
Because it's one thing sort ofsaying, oh, we're taking the
blues, which was sort of alreadyhere, because the you know
black fella down the street wasplaying blues and I'm sort of I
heard it so I got excited.
This is like we're lifting thisfrom africa now, in the same

(26:57):
way that paul simon got slightlyraised eyebrows when he did
graceland.
You know so, but at the time Idon't, I don't think it was part
of the conversation no I think.

Speaker 5 (27:07):
I think no.
Well, I think, if it came outnow, I don't think it would
either.
I think.
I think there's an ongoingconversation around originality
and art and inspiration versusplagiarism.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
It's such a difficult thing to delineate, isn't it?
It's a huge debate to get into,but I mean, what about Vampire
Weekend?

Speaker 5 (27:24):
you know that's a very Afrobeat influence, 100%
only 10 years ago I think itjust it brings a new audience
and it's I think it's amazingthat you know.
You look at artists like theClash and what they've been
inspired by.
It's an era of music where Ithink a lot of Western audiences
are exposed to brand newgenerations of music and culture

(27:45):
.
That just shows you that it cantranscend a particular location
or culture or generation.
I think that's to be celebrated.
And that's what I love aboutmusic, especially this time.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Exactly that's what's amazing about music it brings
people together, it unifies them.
I think where it becomesprobably more like cultural
appropriation is when an artistwill nick a very specific idea,
not credit the other person forit, and then take the money and
stop that person earning moneyfor their work if you want to
look at the led zeppelin episodefor the amount of outrageous

(28:18):
plagiarism on that album.
Then check out um episode,whatever it was, 37 mccartney.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
I have to say the one , the one well, the episode that
that, uh, that this brought tomind.
For me, though, is again, wewill move on in a second, but I
just want to finally on thispoint.
Is Band on the Run?
Because, of course, mccartneyfamously goes to Lagos?
I think it's Lagos has to setup the studio, because there's
really no studio there set upthe studio because there's no
studio.

(28:45):
And Fela Kuti gets wind thatMcCartney's ripping off African
music.
So he turns up in a verythreatening way with you know,
machetes sort of on his you knowhip and bounces and and just,
he's utterly terrified listensto bound on the run through the
mixing desk.
He realizes that it couldn't,couldn't be further from the

(29:06):
truth and everything's fine.
Imagine if talking heads wouldturn up, record remaining live
and fellacuti had turned up tothe studio.
That would have been a verydifferent story very different.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yeah, well, that's really interesting.
Yeah, no, I mean, band on therun was never going to be too
threatening in that sense of no,still pretty flipping white
anyway.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
I mean lennon and harrison could have turned.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I said, listen, you're appropriating the sound
of the Beatles there.
But yeah, that would have been,you know.
Yeah, that's a whole differentdiscussion.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
Right, let's move on.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
So round three is Houses in Motion versus Once in
a Lifetime.

Speaker 5 (29:43):
Did we vote on the last round?

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah, the Great Curve won 3-0.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Oh did it.
Oh God, why haven't we yammeredon?

Speaker 3 (29:48):
for ages there, didn't we?

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Well, let's just assume for some reason that me,
the best host of all time,actually forgot to actually
tally that vote.
Let's just double check whatare you voting for Guy?

Speaker 5 (30:03):
Great Curve Listening Wind.
I'm going for the Great Curve.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, what are you going for, Brett?

Speaker 5 (30:08):
The Great Curve.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
That's a shock.
I'm going for the Great Curveas well.
I think it was pretty obvious.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
Smooth edit.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
But that's fine, guy, you can pick me up on that,
it's not a problem.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
That's all right, I just like to be, you know, by
the book.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
I mean to be honest, it was very vague.
If it had gone through and wehad taken at least 10, maybe 15,
minutes.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
We were discurs.
I think it was all on point.
Though, to be fair, we didn'tsort of ramble off into
non-point territory, so it'sfine.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Anyway.
So, to reiterate, round threeis Houses in Motion versus Once
in a Life.
I knew I'd be able to do thesethings.
As we watch him digging his owngrave, it was important to know
that was where he's at.
Can't afford to stop.

Speaker 6 (31:03):
That is what he believed He'd keep on digging
for a thousand years.
I'm looking at that alone.
I'm thinking about hey, takecaution, I'm walking alone, just
barely enough to Get througheverything, and you may find

(31:31):
yourself Living in a shotgunshack.
And you may find yourselfLiving in a shotgun shack.
And you may find yourself Inanother part of the world and
you may find yourself Behind thewheel of a large automobile and
you may find yourself In abeautiful house With a beautiful
wife, and you may ask yourselfWell, how did I get here?

(31:54):
Letting the days go by.
Let the water hold me down.
Letting the days go by.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Water flowing underground Into the blue again
After the money's gone.
Once in a lifetime, waterflowing underground.
Well, I mean this is.
I mean it's against Once in aLifetime, isn't it?
So it's a massive, massivetrack, not only on this album
but in the canon of TalkingHeads.
So that's an obvious vote.

(32:21):
For me, it's going to be Oncein a Lifetime.
What I would say about How'sHis Emotion is it is interesting
.
You've got John Hasselhoff ontrumpet.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
That's the best thing about that track is that
bizarre, exceptionallyavant-garde trumpet solo.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
It sounds like an elephant being harassed by a
flea.
It really does.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, and he's not pleased about it.
No, that elephant is wellpissed off.
He's browned off.
And then some, I'm walkingalong.

Speaker 6 (32:44):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
It's really good, but it's, you know, and that was
the most Fela Kuti inspired one,apparently, yeah, from they
were listening to Afro Diz Yak alot, so they were very inspired
by that, but it's, you know,it's a game once in a lifetime.
I'm not going to tell you.
I don't know that's what I'mgoing for.
I don't know what Guy's goingwith surprise.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Uh, once and once in a bloody lifetime, it's in a
lifetime, one of the mostparodied parodied songs of all
time.
But we'll come back to thatright.
That was nice, and so, once alifetime goes through, three
we've we've all voted for it,and I can't be picked up on it.
Let's move on good right well,just a bit of auditing that um
right round four.
So it's cross-eyed and painless.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Quarterfinal, four, quarterfinal this is the easiest
one you've ever had to do,because only eight songs on this
album, so they're all.
It goes straight into aquarterfinal.
Everything straight into thecorner.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
So simple, well done, okay, fine, yeah so I can't say
so round four, all thequarterfinals, depending on how
you're feeling, or quarterfinalfour I don't know um.
Cross-eyed and painless versusborn under punches.
Who did this?
Put those against each other.
That's deeply offensive.
That's upsetting.
Thank you, back to living, turnand sign out, back to getting

(34:11):
the best of them.

Speaker 6 (34:29):
Back to nothing but a fix Stay away, stay away, stay
away, not the government man.
Oh oh, oh, it's to breathe.
Oh oh, oh, it's to breathe.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Oh, oh, oh, it's to breathe.
I know which way I'm goingbecause, even though I adore

(35:15):
both of these, one of them is onmy all-time tracks of all-time
favourite.
It's literally one of myfavourite records of all time,
oh, really.
Yes, one of these two tracks.

Speaker 5 (35:25):
Oh really.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yep, I have my favourite song's Ever, ever,
ever playlist and it's on there.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
How many Evers is?

Speaker 1 (35:32):
it Ever, ever ever.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
And is it written as that on your favourite playlist?

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yes, but the third ever, is in caps with an
exclamation mark.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Oh, obviously an exclamation mark, so it
escalates yeah of course itescalates towards the end, just
in case there's any doubt.
Oh yeah, in brackets, hopefully, I would imagine.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
I can add that All right.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Well, you've let some kind of cat out of the bag
there, because, unless you'vegot another fricking song on
your favourite songs, ever, ever, ever exclamation mark we know
what you're going to vote forall the way through to the final
.
So, Guy and I are going to haveto pretend to like other songs
more strongly than we do.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
I just occasionally like to drop a truth bomb, mic
drop Off, I go.
So now you know, except youdon't, because you don't know
which song it is yet.

Speaker 5 (36:17):
No, I was going to say, do we need?

Speaker 2 (36:18):
to guess.
Well, we're going to know whenhe votes.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Oh, we can guess, I'm going to guess Born Under
Punches.
You're guessing Born UnderPunches.
Okay, here's a clue.
The version on something elsethat we need to talk about, on
the live utter piece of geniusthat has stopped making sense is
possibly even better than theversion on the album.

Speaker 5 (36:42):
Okay well they're both on it.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
And in fact ends that concert and has a false
beginning that goes slowly andthen hypes into the mania of the
real thing.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Wow, guy, what's your guess?

Speaker 5 (36:55):
he's really thinking about this.
Born under point.
Born under?
Yeah, well, I thought you mightgo for cross-eyed and painless,
because it sounds like a pinkfloyd song, but uh, born under
punches, I think you both thinkborn under punches.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
You're both wrong.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
It's cross-eyed and painless yeah, it's all the
vocals, isn't it?
It's an amazing amount ofvocals just um it's.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
It's a remarkable piece of music.
I, I the rap, what's all of it?
It's just uh.
The paranoia that comes throughthe lyrics.
It's one of the most coherentonce you, once you've worked out
what the hell's going on.
It is one of the most coherentuh lyrics on the album in terms
of a sort of a paranoid man who,who?
You know where even facts areare turning against him.
You know um but yeah cross-eyed,cross-eyed and painless is

(37:36):
amazing and genuinely, if you,if you, if you listen to that
version, that ends stop makingsense.
They do this, this big sort offalse slow beginning, and then
kick into it and it's just, it'sso good, it's ridiculous and,
but I do love both I like.
I think born under punches isfabby do's as well.

Speaker 5 (37:53):
Oh, yeah, I mean born under punches has the amazing
glitchy guitar, synth guitar.
Is it a guitar?
Is it a synth?
I don't know.
Oh, even I've got this writtendown somewhere.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Hang on, because I think it's a synth.
It's a synth and it's a veryspecific synth and it was played
by.
It was played by uh burn andnot adrian bellow, who uh baloo,
who we need to talk about.
Um, what was it called?
It was called a lexicon primetime delay unit and was recorded

(38:23):
piece by piece, with each partspeed manipulated upon playback
uh, but adrian baloo played itum live, right?

Speaker 5 (38:31):
yeah, because it's that sounds like a johnny
greenwood solo from sort of, butAdrian Ballou played it live
Right, right, right.
Yeah, because that sounds likea Johnny Greenwood solo from
sort of the early 2000s.
Yeah, kind of messed up, cut up, delay.
It's an amazing sonic texture.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Well, radiohead, very influenced by Talking Heads,
they're named after a TalkingHeads song.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
No, completely.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
I've always thought if you get the Beatles and add
Talking Heads, you get Radioheadthat's the two sort of that's
my little, nice, that's your.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Then if you, add, you add, like all of everything on.
Warped Records about halfwaythrough as well.
Yeah, of course, take a leftturn.
Yeah, take a left turn, butinitially.
Yes, for sure, turn the lightsyeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
And then Crosshead and Painless.
I mean, all I know about thatis just the influence of the
Breaks by Curtis Blow.
Wasn't that the song that theyplayed David Byrne, to kind of
give him a vague idea of how tophrase things.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's an early hip-hop record.
Yeah, it's an early hip-hoprecord, the Curtis Blow one
which Chris France had playeddrums on.
So that's why they knew it yes.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
They had just read about it.
They actually, they'd just readabout it, they'd actually heard
it and everything not just readabout the artist.

Speaker 5 (39:33):
They'd actually heard the song so that I'm going to
vote earlier.
I'm going to go for Born UnderPunches.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Oh no, please, please , please you can't put
Cross-Eyed and Painless out, ohfucking hell, you can't put it
out.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
I can and I just did.
Oh, brett, brett, okay, brett,you've got to do it.
Two words Steve Eleanor Rigby.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Oh wow, is this payback?
You were going to vote forCross Island Painless.
This is payback, ladies andgentlemen, for an episode that
he listened to as a listener,and he's still upset with me for
getting Eleanor Rigby out.

Speaker 5 (40:07):
Round one, round one.
It went out round one.
It's not even a.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Beatles song.
It's just him and some fuckingcello.
Honestly, I don't want youtalking about it.

Speaker 5 (40:13):
Fuck me.
Anyway, that's my view and I'msticking with it.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
One for Born Under Punches, then, as good as it is,
it ain't cross-eyed andpainless.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yet the beat goes on, because I'm voting for it as
well.
Oh, I hate you.
I hate you.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Why did I put those against each other?
I don't know.
Oh, why did I put those?
I didn't think for a secondthat that would happen.
Oh my God.

Speaker 5 (40:38):
Look.
I don't do it in jest, it's areally good song and I love it.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Those three songs are amazing.

Speaker 5 (40:43):
The first four songs, yeah, the first four songs of
this album, I think, are justphenomenal.
So sorry, steve, I think arejust phenomenal and you have to
split hairs, don't you Okay.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Well, just so you know, whatever wins, I will play
Cross-Eyed and Painless as theplay out track on the episode,
anyway, as if it has won,because I'm editing this one.
So stuff you both.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah, fair do's.
I'm so sorry.
I just really love Born UnderPunches.
It's an amazing way to start analbum.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, it is a brilliant way to start an album.
Yeah, it is a brilliant way tostart an album.
There's no way around it, ohdear.
Well, look, can we talk aboutJerry Harrison for a minute?
Don't fret, because I think,because Adrian Ballou was, I
think he was King crimson atsome point, but he, he was frank
zapper's guitarist, I think,and and he, um, he sort of does

(41:31):
a lot of the crazy weird stuffand I felt really sad and sorry
for jerry harrison for a longtime I thought either he's got.
He's got like no ego and he'sfine with stuff or he's just let
someone come out, else come inand play all the fancy because
jerry harrison's yeah, he's leadguitar essentially in talking,
but he is, but he is theguitarist and keyboard player.
So once I discovered that hewas both of those things and
also he wasn't really creditedas lead guitarist, he was more

(41:54):
credited as guitarist andkeyboard player I was like, okay
, that's a great.
And apparently he's just theloveliest, easiest going chap
ever.
So respect to him for lettingsomeone else come in and play
all the fancy bits.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Well, it was a great.
This whole album was a massivecollaboration.
So they'd all swap instrumentsand everyone plays percussion,
everyone sings.
So I think that attitude of it,that energy, just allowed that
to not be a thing, whereas in alot of bands it probably would
be a huge issue, wouldn't it?
Just someone coming in?
Oh, we're just going to get inanother guitarist.
Two of us play guitar.
That's my main instrument.
Yeah, fair play to him Right.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Semi-final number one is Seen and Not Seen.
How is I mean?
Whoever did this draw?
It was me.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
It was me, and if only I'd sent you a different
draw, which you forgot I'd sentyou, and you could have done
that one.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Cross-eyed and painless, is out and seen and
not seen is still fucking hereand that, ladies and gentlemen,
is on my head anyway, why didn'tyou put cross-eyed and penis
against the overload and you'dhave been laughing?
Because I wasn't trying to winthrough with what I wanted I was
trying I was trying to createnarrative tension for a good
podcast experience for ourlisteners.

Speaker 5 (43:01):
Brett we've definitely got tension,
definitely got tension.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
I'm feeling tense the look on your face don't tell
the listeners, steve, don't tellthe listeners, you've got to
game McCartney in goal.
You can't just let it happen,otherwise your favourite song
might not win.
Don't tell anyone.
That's my little tip to you.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
I think that the listenership has been the winner
, but I'm going to bed sad.
Right semi-final, one Scene andalso not scene versus the Great
Curve More hooked nose, wider,thinner lips, beady eyes, larger

(43:46):
forehead Well, that's easy,isn't it?

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Come on, we know what's going through.
What I just want to say aboutSeen and Not Seen is it's very
spoken word.
The album kind of goes more andmore spoken word, more and more
kind of sparse and kind of, youknow, disconnected.
But I love it.
It's like talking aboutsomeone's appearance and them
thinking if they can changetheir appearance just by thought
alone.
It's such an odd set of lyrics.

(44:20):
And I love when it goes beadyeyes and it reminds me of the
Steve Coogan sketch about thepool attendant.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
You know the one.
Oh yeah, in 1984 nothinghappened.
1982, yeah, someone died.
It's just amazing.
Well, I I would say this I'vebeen working for 18 years in
1975, no one died.
In 1976, no one died.
In 1977, no one died.
In 1977, no one died.
In 1978, no one died In 1979,no one died In 1980, someone

(44:58):
died In 1981, no one died In1982, there was the incident
with a pigeon In 1983, no onedied In 1984, no one died.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
And apparently Coogan had a Talking Heads song on his
Desert Island disc and said hewanted to play David Byrne in a
biopic.
And David Byrne said yeah, thatwould be awesome, so maybe
Coogan's channeling this trackon that sketch.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, who knows let's let's talk about burn for a
second, because, uh, one of themost interesting.
I don't know when he was umdiet when he got a diagnosis,
but david burn is is famouslyautistic yes, asperger's
syndrome?

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I think isn't it.
Is that what it is?

Speaker 1 (45:44):
well, yes, but asperger's is no longer a term
in use, for whatever reason.
I'm not there.
I don't think that it'snecessarily become offensive in
the way that some terms pass outterminology and become
offensive, but for reasons Idon't quite understand, yet
Asperger's has been taken offthe table and now it's just all

(46:04):
one big autistic spectrum again.
However, yes, I suspect that itwas probably labeled that way
before, but, um, yeah, and Ithink I think that affects his,
certainly his relationships with, with people around him and, um
, the group, but certainlyaffects his sort of world view
and well, this, this is a kindof interesting this.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
This song is kind of like a kind of a someone who
struggles to present themselvesin a way that other people can
understand, or you canunderstand.
It reminds a bit of masking,doesn't it?
They're kind of the lyrics.
It could imply that at somestage yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
But I mean even things like titles, like one of
their albums is called, likemore songs about buildings and
food, I think you know, and it'sthat thing of that's not a
usual title or things to writeabout in rock music.
There may be genres of musicwhere that's a thing but that's
not really a thing, and and somuch of that um comes through, I
think, and makes himinteresting, because he's coming

(46:58):
at things from an angle thatthat you might not expect oh,
completely.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
I mean, his brain's extraordinary.
He's even written a a book,hasn't he?
About music?
He's written a number of booksas well.
I, I mean he's a completelysearching soul.
There's no doubt about that.
Chris France said.
You know they used to live in aloft together, the three of
them, france, weymouth and DavidByrne.
I think they met at art schoolor something and they said, you
know they really liked him.
He was really great tocollaborate with reverse

(47:24):
charisma, like he would getreally anxious and then he would
like kind of sweat on stageloads and people thought he was
having a nervous breakdown whenthey're playing a gig.
He's just like you know.
He really went through themiddle of it and I think part of
of that might be why they youknow those issues with possibly,
um, he'll collaborate and he'sgreat to collaborate, but then

(47:47):
afterwards he might notnecessarily see that and that's
what the issues that wouldhappen with Eno and Burr when
they just said, oh, we'll putour names on the credit for the
album, they might have justprocessed it differently or not
thought of it in the same way asFranz and Weymouth had thought
about it well, one of the ones Ienjoy is when they started it

(48:07):
was Burr and Franz and they want, they were trying to find a
bassist in new york and theycouldn't find a bassist.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
So he's like well, my girlfriend tina, she, let's get
her to learn the bass.
And they're like amazing sothey get her to learn the bass
because they can't find abassist.
Despite both burn and andFrance asking her to learn the
bass to join the band, Byrnestill made her audition three
times.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Fucking hell.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
I mean, she's an amazing bassist and an absolute.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
She's such a great bassist An incredible kick-ass.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
It's a iconic figure.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Because she was their early road manager.
She was the one that organisedstuff.
She got them going, she bookedthe gigs.
She would take a notebook withher, write down how many encores
, how many songs played, didthey get paid and would they
want to go back.
These are things she noted andshe would love to go into, you
know, the promoter's office andthey've got like a shotgun on
the table and she's eithercounting out the money and like

(49:02):
the.
The best story is when she wentto nashville and the promoter
was counting out the money andhe counted out too much, and so
she recounted out verydelicately, pointing out the
fact you've given me too muchmoney, and he's like, oh great,
when can you come back?
I just loved him so much suchrare honesty to do that so
that's great yeah, I mean, uhyeah, an amazing, yeah great

(49:24):
bassist, totally kind ofinteresting.
And the the bass is probablythe cornerstone of this album,
in the sense that it's the mostrooted thing in the album,
because you've got all the polyrhythms going off.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
It's the bass that locks it, and if that wasn't,
yeah, absolutely, and the two ofthem were brilliant together
and of course they went off andformed their own band in one of
those periods which was Tom TomClub Tam Tam Band if you want
what the fuck, did I just?

Speaker 2 (49:47):
say Tam Tam Band.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Oh my God, that's spectacular.
That is pretty impressive.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
It's not even that late, it's half eight.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
It's not late at all.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
No, no, it's all good , but their most famous track,
the name of which escapes me,but I will play here because
it's one of the most Genius ofLove.
It's what's it called.

Speaker 5 (50:04):
Genius of Love.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Genius of Love, because it's like one of the
most sampled tracks of all time,I think.

Speaker 5 (50:11):
Yeah, Mariah Carey is the famous sample usage of it.
Yeah, but I'm sure there's acouple of hip-hop ones as well.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
But yeah, the Mariah Carey one's huge, but it's yeah
because they went off and didfascinating things.
Just the two of them.
We're on semi-final two andwe're talking about Once in a

(50:46):
Lifetime against Born UnderPunches.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Oh, wow, okay, now we're talking-final two.
We're talking about, once in alifetime, against born under
punches.
Oh, wow, okay, now we'retalking, aren't?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
we that's.
That's getting hard now itreally is I mean born under
punches is a great way to startan album well, as much as
anything, because I think it'sthere's a mission statement in
all the weird sounds.
Because it's like when, if you,if you listen to it loud enough
, it's just like whoop yeah inthe background.
You're like what's happeningenough.
It's just like whoop Wah In thebackground.
You're like what's happeningnow, and it's such a great

(51:12):
mission statement for the album.
It's like, oh, this is notgoing to be particularly normal,
right, I see, okay.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
It's absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
I mean, I literally had to go and check on the dog
three or four times todaybecause I was listening to the
opening track on his album andI'd forgotten that burn is in
the background, you know inbetween.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
It's almost as bad as fireworks night, isn't it
really?
Yeah, your dog remaining lightthat's great well, um guy, talk
about both of these tracks a bit, because I'm still thinking
about which one I want to votethrough for me it's fairly easy.

Speaker 5 (51:46):
Um, my, I mean it's.
It's weird if we're talkingabout once in a lifetime.
Right, it's, it's.
It's the rare instance of wherea song is so big that I've
turned into steve a little bitand it's like it's diminished
its effect on me a little bit,and it's it's worn it down.
However, that's it as I said tobefore, this album I've, even

(52:10):
though it's a classic album andrightly so, I think for
especially for its time, and Ithink you have to remember that
when you're looking at albumsthat you might not necessarily
get instantly, but you know, ifyou think of this as 45 years
ago, 40 god, is it that long ago?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
it's, it's, it's so fucking timeless album, isn't it
?

Speaker 5 (52:27):
it's just timeless, it's but once in a lifetime does
something.
Um, really, really well.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
It has a discernible chorus as well.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
That's quite rare for this album yeah, it's also kind
of just got this kind of majorkey like brightness to it where
it shifts between two real sortof pop chords and again it's got
more than one chord, whichagain is unusual on this album
especially when those chordscome in towards the end and it
really starts to move.
They add three or four chordsand it moves through, through

(52:56):
the um, the chorus again, butit's like a sort of euphoric
kind of yeah, we've talked aboutit, obviously the lyrics are
based on a sort of us preacherdoing his kind of sermon.
It's a very sort of prophetickind of uh, semi-religious kind
of delivery of those sorts ofrealizations that, once you know
, you do wake up at some pointin your life and realize, oh my

(53:16):
god, I'm this age, now lookwhere I've come from and look
what I've done, and you havethis sort of above out-of-body
experience of realizing thesecircumstances.
And literally, how did I get?
here like this is mad the factthat I'm now at this stage of my
life and I'm very cognizant ofthat fact.
Uh and it it does.
What all great talking headsongs do really really well is
it does something batshit crazysonically but does something

(53:39):
really uniform and sort of uh,middle ground so that everyone
can kind of understand andidentify with.
Um, and that's where I think,when, when bernie's at his best
is when he does those sort ofvery arty deliveries of
something that everyone kind ofgoes yeah, I can see myself in
that.
That actually makes total senseand it has a groove and it has

(54:00):
a, uh, a sort of, like I say,euphoric sensibility.
That I think is is reallyreally great and it combines a
little bit of that Africanpolyrhythm sort of element.
But then it also has this verysort of straight kind of pop
ness to it.
It's a nice halfway house and itis literally halfway through
the album and it's like thissort of it is the combination of

(54:21):
everything on this record allin one pretty much all at the
same time with all the differentthings going on um, and even
though I don't love this albumparticularly as much as other
talking heads albums and I havehad this song a lot that it's
kind of it's not even in my topfive favorite talking head songs
, I still think it is, for me,my favorite song on this, wow so
that.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
In that in mind, that was a beautiful summary, a very
coherent argument.
I really enjoyed it.
I'm voting for born underpunches good yeah oh, it gives
me the very hard task then,because, yeah, I mean the lyric
thing.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
I get the point, but again, when once you get to the
chorus of once in a lifetime, itit sounds much more meaningful
than it is, because I completelyagree with your analysis of
what he's perhaps saying, um,about life and where you've got
to in in the verses.
But but once it gets to once ina lifetime and water flowing

(55:20):
underground and into the blueagain and the mighty star and
everything it that, it's justnon-sequiturs again brilliant
sound brilliant brilliantsounding ones, but um, they
don't.
They don't, but, and the same asit, all the same, as everyone's
stuff is great I'm just tryingto talk myself through it, so
born under punches.

Speaker 5 (55:36):
I think well, yeah, go on, go on.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Sorry, oh, this is really hard I don't want to vote
for what's in a lifetime,because it seems really obvious.
And I love born under punches,but I'm so upset with born under
punches for taking out mybeloved that I'm yes, I'm just
on that basis alone.
I'm so upset with Born UnderPunches for taking out my
beloved Rosalind Payne that I'mjust on that basis alone, I'm
going with Once In A Lifetime.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
You bitter bastard you say that as if you didn't
know that about me like it's arevelation right which takes us
to the final.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Ladies and gents, how did we get here so quickly for
such an incredible album, whichis the?

Speaker 2 (56:06):
great, I haven't had my dinner yet.
That's why we got here soquickly.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Oh, it's just that you're just saying any old shit
to get through to the end.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Yeah, come on.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
I want my burger I want my sausages.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Right, it's the Great Curve versus Once in a Lifetime
.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Well, two fantastic songs, so dense.
I mean the Great Curve wehaven't talked about that much.
I mean it's got so many vocalson it.
It's ridiculous, it's justincredible.
And it's got something.
There's a term I learned today,a musical term I learned today,
called Hockets.
You heard that before?

Speaker 1 (56:59):
No, never.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Yeah, that's like it's where almost the same part
is played by two instruments.
So that's what a was, what ahockey is.
It's not a call and response.
It's not like one instrumentplays a line everyone responds
to.
It's like it will be split overtwo instruments, so is this the
bass lines where the bass lines, guitar lines, all those things
they're like they're hockey.

(57:20):
So there's just a couple ofbeats.
They'll play on one instrumentand another one will take over.
So it's like a conversationalthing.
It's conversation it's yes,it's extraordinary so you got.
I mean, there's so many layersin this album.
I just can't believe they didit.
It's such hard thing to dowithout computers and sampling
and to conceive it.
I think it must have just beena lot of hard work and a lot of

(57:43):
pain.
I know david burn had to goaway to write a lot of the
vocals, which is extraordinaryto think because there's so many
vocals going on.
In this album, so many layers.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Particularly great curve though, where I mean, you
know, it sounds like they'realmost doing doo-wop, stuff like
going, but they're not.
It's like literally, becauseyou've got this line.
She's moving to describe theworld and then they're singing
against it night must.
She's moving to describe theworld and then they're singing
against it Night Must Fall.
Now Darker, darker, and it'slike what?

Speaker 2 (58:12):
And?

Speaker 1 (58:12):
I can't have told you without reading them off a
screen, which I never do, butI'm doing right now.
You can tell from my amazingdelivery.
That those two things, I know,thank you that those two things
across each other end up somehowcreating this bizarre thing
where it sounds like they'redoing which is not what they're
doing at all, and it's literallyjust two very specific lyrics

(58:36):
melding in an incomprehensiblemiddle ground to create this
sort of sonic soup, and that'sto sacrifice the meaning or the
specificity of the lyrics.
to sound in that way is brave asmuch as anything else, or

(58:57):
complete madness it'sextraordinary.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
I mean it must have taken hours to mix this.
Surely it must have done to allthose vocal ideas going on yeah
, I think it's Nona Hendrixwho's the vocalist.
They got in to do a lot of thesinging on this, on this track.
It's brilliant.
Her vocals are absolutelyamazing.

Speaker 5 (59:14):
You know, it's just yeah, I think it's also, I think
it's probably engineeredphenomenally well, so it's kind
of it's just the fidelity of itis really what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (59:23):
engineered really well.
What are you saying there to usnon-producers?

Speaker 5 (59:26):
the mics, they've used the kind of quality of
equipment they've used, therooms they've recorded in.
So the natural reverb,everything was probably going to
be I mean, I don't actuallyknow how much uh layering they
did sort of outside of you know,it's not like a full specter
thing where they're all going tobe in the room and they're all
going to be playing it live andthat's the recording it's all
about getting that room set upto sound right, like the record,

(59:47):
like the guitar will be overthere and the drums will be over
the backs.
It would probably be much morestudio oriented, but still it
sounds really high definitionfor its time.
There's a lot of clarity aroundevery instrument, there's a lot
of spatial stuff going on andthat's that's again.
It's a form they're playingwith, aren't they?
You can you can do the sort oflinear time thing, but then also

(01:00:07):
you can do the sort of 3d thingwith space on the record and um
, and then you get things likethe mad guitar synth at the end
of the great curve which soundslike sort of hair metal yeah,
it's again, is it?
it's actually like anothersynthesizer, probably the same
one, pretend perhaps, but uhit's, it's.
That sounds like 1988 sort ofhair yeah, rock yeah, and it's
1980 and it's just thrown inlike some mad wig out and it's

(01:00:30):
almost like they're just goingthrough sort of demo, sort of
presets, even though the sounddoesn't change.
It's like just sort ofhammering different ways of
making noise out of this thing,as the song kind of rambles on
to six and a half minutes orwhatever it is.
Um, it's fascinating, it's justyeah, but at no point is it?
Do I ever kind of listen to itand think, oh, I've had enough
of this?

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
it's hypnotic.
We're probably the mosthypnotic song on the album.
There's a lot of like justsongs that are totally kind of
mesmerizing in that sense I mean, those three openers back to
back are just it's just madness.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Oh, it's just full-on assault of your senses.
I mean it's, I was trying to doso, I was listening to that.
So listen to this album a lot,a lot.
As I said at the start of thepodcast, you asked us how,
what's your journey of thisalbum?
So I might as well summarize itnow.
I mean, the first time Ilistened to it, I'm like fuck,
steve suggested this album.
It is wow, it is really outthere.
Um, but there was something Ithought okay, no, this is

(01:01:21):
interesting, it will challengeme to listen to it and it's,
it's been fantastic.
I've really enjoyed it.
I mean, I admire it as much asI enjoy it.
I think, like guy says it, itdefinitely that the start is
stronger than the end, althoughlatterly I have started to get
into some of those later songs,um, and they're, they are
compelling in their own way, butthe first three songs are just

(01:01:41):
oh.
First four songs are just likephenomenal and you just cannot
fail to dance to them.

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
You have to.
You have to move your ass tothese.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
They're just incredible.
Also, you just can't doanything else really when you're
listening.
You can't do anything like.
Sometimes you'll put on musicand send some emails or read
something.
Just no, you cannot.
This music will not allow youto be distracted from it.
It is fully compelling anddemanding of your attention.

(01:02:08):
Yeah, absolutely well put yeahwell put what you voting for
Brett um yeah, I've got agreewith Guy, like I mean, once in a
Lifetime is a very popular songin in the canon and it almost
didn't make the album because,until you know, developed a
melody for that chorus, um, butI really, I really love the fact

(01:02:29):
you can.
This is one of those albums youcan put on and it will change
your mood.
I've said that a few times withdifferent albums.
I think that's a remarkable,incredible piece of work, and
the great curve will get medancing, so I'm voting for that
okay, well, I, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
I'm gonna vote great curve because I think it's.
It's just so hypnotic andincredible Just those first
three had I not put Bourne andUnderpunches against Cross-Eyed
and Painless.
I just wanted all three of themto get as far as they could in
the competition.
So that's on me.
I'm voting Great Curve, almostout of respect for our fallen

(01:03:05):
comrades at this late stage.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Are you voting the Great Curve because it's closer
in the track listing tocross-eyed and painless than
once in a lifetime is that?

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I'm touching at straws, but that's what's
happening.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
I'm touching at straws yeah, guy, what are you
voting for?

Speaker 5 (01:03:18):
well, although it's somewhat moot now.
Uh, I am going for once in alifetime.
Um, I love that the great.
I'm glad this final, becausethey are my two favorite songs
from this record in the final so.
I'm very happy about that.
We kind of ended up here.
But I do recommend anyonelisten to the outtake on the
sort of bonus version ofRemaining Light which is called

(01:03:40):
Right Start, which is gives youan idea of how these songs kind
of started and once in alifetime again they were, you
know, tina and chris makingthese sort of looped kind of
backing tracks and that songwhen you hear it kind of where
humble beginning on a guitar andsome extra bits, it's
fascinating to see, just from asongwriting perspective, where
it kind of got to and where itstarted and you can hear the

(01:04:01):
guitar that was in that partbeing looped in the actual final
version and um, and there'salso, you know, visually I can't
get away from the video and thefact that it was.
It was wasn't really a hit whenit came out, but then the mtv
rotation because they didn'thave any songs to play back then
they just hammered once in alifetime and the video is iconic
, the spoofs of the video areiconic.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
So many spoofs of it, so many yeah the muckers, one
in particular.
Yeah, the dancing is amazingthe dancing is amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
It's like the very, very weird pilates lesson.
Isn't it the way he dances?

Speaker 5 (01:04:35):
yeah, I think it.
Yeah, and it kind of feeds intothat sort of what we think of
as talking heads.
We think of the big suit and wethink of, uh, stop making sense
perhaps which I would argue isactually their best album, um.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Yes, I might argue that as well.
Stop Making Sense is the film?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
isn't it directed by Jonathan Demme and it's a live
performance?

Speaker 5 (01:04:55):
Yes, a live performance.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
And almost universally regarded as the
greatest concert film of alltime, and if you haven't seen it
, see it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:03):
Yes, and it's also has the benefit of having all
the best talking head songs inamongst the set list as well.
Yeah, but yes, for me.
I love the Great Curve For me.
Once in a Lifetime is myfavourite, but it doesn't matter
anymore, because you buggershave voted the Great Curve to
win.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
No, we haven't Brett's voted Once in a Lifetime
, hasn't he?

Speaker 6 (01:05:26):
Do you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
listen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Fuck me.
What is going on?

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
I voted for the Great Curve, the Great Nonny.
I was concentrating on otheritems right, the Great Curveball
I've actually crossed it out onmy bits of paper once in a
lifetime.
That's because you'recross-eyed and painless.
Fuck it that was brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
That was brilliant.
You cross-eyed him painless.
Fuck it Al I mean that wasbrilliant.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
That was pretty pretending as well, because I
voted for the Great Curve andthen you voted for it as well,
killing the tension of the final.
Which would have been amazing,because Guy was voting for the
other song.
I mean, I was convinced.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Let's go back and do it all again.
Let forget that bit.
It's tension.
I've literally crossed it outon a bit of paper and everything
are you having a breakdown likeonce in a lifetime?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
this is not my house.
Wow, steve, was it seen and notseen that final?

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
my vote.
Yeah, exactly yikes.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
So the winner surprise and complete shock it's
only to your surprise, everyoneelse.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
That's a bit of an anti-climax.
No one else is like that's abit of an anti-climax.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
If you've been listening, you wouldn't be
surprised by this at all, butthe winner of Remaining Light is
in fact the Great Curve.
Obviously, that should becross-eyed and painless, but it
is in fact the Great Curve.

Speaker 5 (01:06:42):
Well done From the magic of life she is moving to
describe the world.

Speaker 6 (01:07:00):
She has messages for everyone.
She is moving the remotecontrol.
Thank you, bye.