September 17, 2025 • 33 mins
Dr. Michael Myers joins Dr. Michael Koren for an interview about his physician journey from medical school to private practice, healthcare administration, health consulting, teaching, and writing. Dr. Myers talks about his serendipitous journey through many parts of the healthcare system and how this shaped his unique career path through medicine's changing landscape. The two also transition to modern discussions on vaccines and the need for credible information in this space.
Dr. Myers is writing a book titled "The Vaccine Bible," to be published on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BL15KXRV/allbooks
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Have a question for Dr. Koren? Email him at askDrKoren@MedEvidence.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to MedEvidence, where we help you
navigate the truth behindmedical research with unbiased,
evidence-proven facts Hosted bycardiologist and top medical
researcher, Dr.
Michael Koren.
Dr. Michael Koren (00:11):
Hello, I'm Dr .
Michael Koren, the executiveeditor of MedEvidence! And I
have a really fun job today.
I'm really excited about thispart of my job, which is to
interview my former classmateand a real leader in medicine,
Dr.
Michael Myers.
Mike, thank you for being partof our family here at
MedEvidence!
Dr. Michael Myers (00:30):
Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Michael Koren (00:31):
Yeah, so Mike and I caught up recently at our
reunion, our medical schoolreunion.
We won't tell you how many years.
It was because we want toprotect the innocent here, but
we had a fascinatingconversation and it reminded me
of a few things about Mike thatI really want to share with our
audience.
Mike was a true leader atHarvard Medical School and you
(00:53):
can imagine the kind of studentswe probably had about 165
people in our class and, quitefrankly, a few prima donnas
amongst us maybe but Mike reallypopped as a leader amongst
leaders and I'm fascinated totalk a little bit about him and
what got him to that point, andthen for him to share his really
interesting and unique careerpath that led to a major role in
(01:16):
administrative medicine.
So, Mike, welcome toMedEvidence and let's start
telling your story.
Where'd you grow up, how'd youbecome such a leader at Harvard
and how'd you get to bewhere you are now?
Dr. Michael Myers (01:38):
I grew up in America.
I was born in Kansas City.
And then, right when I was ababy, my mom and my dad were 17
and 18 when I was born, but myfather was the youngest of four
and his eldest sister, my auntStacy, was married to a surgeon
in LA.
(02:00):
And my dad wanted to finish hiseducation, and at that time
California provided tuition-freecollege education, so he moved
his whole family to Los Angeleswhen I was a little baby.
I was born in 1959,So I lived
Dr. Michael Koren (02:15):
You let the cat out of the bag.
Dr. Michael Myers (02:16):
Sorry, okay.
So I grew up in LA.
We stayed there until about1971.
And then we moved back toKansas City where I went to
sixth grade, junior, high, highschool, and then from there I
just started moving east.
I went to college in BaltimoreJohns Hopkins, Harvard Medical
(02:37):
School had my whole career inthe Boston area, got an MBA.
So that's kind of where I am.
I'm a citizen of the US of A,to be honest.
Dr. Michael Koren (02:48):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it, and tell us a littlebit about your medical training
.
What was your specialty and howyou got into administrative
medicine.
Dr. Michael Myers (02:57):
So I need to give complete credit to one of
my mentors, Dr.
Ronald Arky, who ran thePeabody group when - a society
we were at at Harvard.
He was my internship advisorand at the time we had to sort
of choose specialties.
I thought I was going to be adermatologist and I had done all
(03:21):
kinds of research in Derm andin MGH.
And I'm going to say thisbecause I literally believe,
Dr. Michael Koren (03:27):
And MGH, is Mass General Hospital.
Dr. Michael Myers (03:29):
Now it's known as MGB, Bass General
Brigham, to really highlight theprominence of Mass General over
everybody else, right?
So man's, man's greatesthospital, as we all remember
from the House of God Hospital,as we all remember from the
House of God.
So, anyway, I was on my bicycleleaving my research lab, you
know, riding to Somerville, andI heard, I literally heard a
(03:53):
voice, and this is what thevoice said to me.
The voice said zits.
That was what the voice said,zits, and I don't.
It was literally an audiblevoice and so I said, oh my God,
God's right, like I haveinvested all of this time and
effort in developing You've gotthe best education in the solar
(04:15):
system and you're going to throwit away to be a dermatologist.
I mean, this is really serious,Mike.
Okay, I'm really serious.
Dr. Michael Koren (04:23):
Okay, okay.
Well, again, apologies to ourdermatology colleagues who I
love and do really good work,but I hear you Keep on going.
Dr. Michael Myers (04:31):
I went to my internship.
I mean the whole thing was setin motion.
I went to Dr.
Arky.
I said, Dr.
Arky, I can't be adermatologist.
I said I heard from God.
He spoke to me from on high.
He put his I don't know if youknow Ron Arky, but he's a very
he's a very unassuming quiet guy.
He kind of put his he's kind ofa big teddy bear.
(04:51):
He kind of put his arm aroundme.
He said Mike.
He said Mike, you belong atMount Auburn Hospital as a
primary care doctor.
That's where you belong.
And so that's how I ended up atMount Auburn in primary care
and then the rest is historyfrom that point.
Dr. Michael Koren (05:12):
Yeah, wow, yeah yeah.
Ron was such a fabulous guy.
I was having a conversation withhim.
I had a similar conversationwith him when I was trying to
decide between medicine andsurgery and, yeah, so that was
kind of my decision point, butso keep on going.
So you ended up doing familymedicine, or what was your
actual medicine?
Dr. Michael Myers (05:30):
Internal medicine.
To be honest back then, and youknow Harvard in the mid
eighties was not a place thatencouraged people to pursue
family medicine or primary caremedicine, very research oriented
.
And I was kind of out therewith my interest in those areas
(05:53):
of work and so went to MountAuburn.
I've had pretty much a straightshot through the whole process
from kindergarten, so straightfrom grade school to junior high
, junior high, high high tocollege, college, med, and then
from medical school tointernship residency.
So I was at Mount Auburnbetween 1985 and 1988.
(06:15):
I had come from a family ofdoctors And dentist in Kansas
City, los Angeles and Texas.
The family I guess you wouldcall it the family model was
kind of hanging your shingle upand having your own practice.
So I did that.
I decided to pursue that inDorchester, Massachusetts, where
(06:36):
I had my first private practice.
Dr. Michael Koren (06:39):
Okay, interesting, interesting.
So, as I mentioned, you werecertainly a leader in our class.
So if you survey the members ofour class and say who are the
five leaders, your name wouldcome up for everybody.
So what was it about thatupbringing that led you to be a
leader at Harvard Medical School?
Dr. Michael Myers (06:58):
Well, probably a gift of gab, a real
drive toward excellence.
You know, and I just generallylike people it sounds a little
corny and sometimes it isn't somuch that you choose a
(07:25):
leadership position, but itchooses you.
I mean, the vacuum created bypeople having, not just good
ideas, but ideas that areactionable and people that are
willing to step in and to carryout those ideas is a fairly
small numerator.
So I've always been a personinterested in solving problems,
not necessarily complainingabout things.
I move very quickly throughKubler-Ross stages, right, I
(07:47):
don't stay in anger, depressionor bargaining, you know, I get
to acceptance and problemsolving.
That is really what a leader iscalled to do and paid to do,
not to kvetch and complain, butreally to solve problems.
And we have a lot of big onesand they won't go away, and so
that's kind of where I grew upand came in and the kind of work
(08:10):
I've done throughout my career.
Dr. Michael Koren (08:12):
So interesting, so interesting so
let's fast forward.
You were in private practicefor a while, but you ended up
having a good portion of yourcareer in administrative
medicine.
So how'd that happen?
Dr. Michael Myers (08:30):
So okay, so I am following the family model
shingle out in Dorchester,thinking I'm just going to be a
basic family doc.
This is the mid eighties, lateeighties, in Boston and
Massachusetts, not realizingthat the world around me was
changing.
You know, it was more aboutmanaged care, population health,
medicine.
All of these things were goingon and I am literally struggling
(08:52):
to hold on to what amounts tobe an inner city practice in the
outskirts of the Boston area,and I just found it to be
impossible to carry out.
I was basically at one pointworking three different jobs to
not only pay back student loansbut to support my very young
(09:13):
family and then also to pay theoverhead of my practice.
Just to tell one little tinystory from that moment.
So my son at that point was justa little kid and I remember I
would have this kind ofexistence where I would work my
day job, have on my scrubs, comehome for dinner, change and
(09:34):
then go to the ER or do roundsat the nursing home, because I
had my private practice nursinghome directorship and I would do
moonlighting at KearneyHospital and Trey would never
meet me.
Trey would never meet me at thedoor, you know, and he was
literally waiting there.
It was snot coming down hisnose and kind of looking at me
(09:57):
and he said to me he was alittle boy.
I still remember this.
It breaks my heart.
He said Daddy, daddy, are you areal doctor?
I said, yeah, I'm a real doctor.
So he goes because I need areal doctor.
And I looked down at him and hewas basically in the throes of
having an asthma attack.
(10:18):
I took, I took him to hispediatrician.
He had to be admitted toChildren's Hospital and put on
IV.
So that kind of illustrates howbusy I was.
I was not even observant enoughto see that my kid was so sick
that he needed to actually.
So he's like are you a realdoctor?
Because I have to go see a realdoctor.
So things were yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Michael Koren (10:39):
Well, you got him to where he needed to go,
so you were actually both a dadand a real doctor, From my
perspective.
Dr. Michael Myers (10:44):
It's kind of hard to balance that kind of
work life thing.
But anyway, I tried to pursuethis and, you know, did my best.
Anyway, then what happened issomehow I got into the Rolodex
of the media and I think mybyline was again something I
don't think you realize.
But I'll now tell the story.
(11:05):
Brilliant African-AmericanHarvard doctor fails miserably
in private practice.
That was kind of like my bylinepractice.
That was kind of like my byline.
So I was on 60 Minutes, I wason 2020.
I was on the cover of the BostonGlobe Magazine right in about
1988, 1989.
(11:25):
And that brought me to theattention of people at MIT in
their medical department ofcollege health service.
Arnie Weinberg, who I knew,called me up from my days at
Mount Auburn hospital.
He said Mike, you lookmiserable on the cover of the
globe.
Come work for us, come work forus, we'll make you happy.
So that's literally how I wentfrom, you know, closing down my
(11:47):
private practice over to MIT.
And you know, Mike, before wetake a bit of a pause, that is
really been the the trajectoryof my career.
It has been total serendipity.
It has never been like metrying to make things work.
It's like opportunities kind ofcome my way and then they come
(12:08):
at the right moment and I justgo for it.
So that's how I got my job atMIT, which was my last clinical
job, and from there I kind ofturned my ship.
Dr. Michael Koren (12:16):
But preparation meets opportunity,
so you were prepared.
Dr. Michael Myers (12:20):
That's one of my favorite quotes and it's
inside Vanderbilt Hall in theDome.
It's the quote by Louis Pasteurchance favors the prepared mind
.
Yes,
Dr. Michael Koren (12:30):
There you go.
Exactly I love that quote, yes.
Yep, absolutely so.
Then you went to MIT, I guess,to learn some management skills,
whatever happened there, andthen you ended up in New Jersey,
as I understand it, veryinvolved in running a doctor's
group, if I'm not mistaken.
Dr. Michael Myers (12:47):
So 11 different jobs.
I won't go through all of them.
Between residency, MIT was mylast position.
I got a call out of the bluefrom a headhunter indicating I
would be the perfect candidatefor a job at Blue Cross, Blue
Shield, and that's when I turnedmy ship.
So I became the associatemedical director for government
(13:07):
programs at Blue Cross, whichmeant that I helped to provide
medical policy insight forMedicare and Medicaid in this
region from Blue Cross.
Uh, they actually um paid for meto get an MBA and then, as I
was getting my MBA, laid me offright.
(13:27):
That was my first layoff.
So it laid me off across mybrilliant career and, um, I got
this great idea to start my ownbusiness, my own healthcare
consulting business, and I thenstarted my own business, or had
this business idea, shopped itaround to some people that I
(13:47):
knew at Coopers and Librant,ended up being hired there to
run a new division they werestarting.
Then Coopers merged with PriceWaterhouse Cooper's.
I was there for a bit, theylaid me off.
I started my own company, thenmore healthcare consulting and
then I ended up at PartnersHealthcare working for MGB and
(14:09):
the Brigham et cetera, andbasically kind of ran medical
groups as a medical directorfrom Partners to Hawthorne
Medical Associates, compass, andthen down in New Jersey at
Summit Health.
So that's kind of like thetrajectory of my brilliant
career in medicine, such as itwas.
Dr. Michael Koren (14:29):
So did you learn things from medical school
dealing with the prima donnasin our class that helped you run
these huge medical practices?
Dr. Michael Myers (14:36):
So, yeah, because there's a lot of big
egos that you have to manage andyou know what motivates doctors
, right, because all of us aresort of grade-grubbing pre-meds
we all think we're making A's inthe class when we really are
not and I think it's alsolearning how to motivate people
by understanding what makes themtick.
So that kind of knowledge Iwas marinated in at Harvard and
(15:02):
then it's kind of continued tocultivate and germinate as I,
you know, continued on, and Ithink that's kind of what made
me effective is that you know,managing positions is very hard,
right, because they areextraordinarily hardworking,
intelligent, ethical, very highstandards.
(15:23):
I'm going to say this.
They also like money, okay.
So I know I'm not supposed tosay that, but it is true.
Dr. Michael Koren (15:34):
Who doesn't?
Dr. Michael Myers (15:34):
This is American medicine, so this is
what it's all about.
So finding ways to thread thatneedle, sometimes to actually
influence, impact their behavioris it's not easy, but I had a
finesse and ability to do that.
So that's what made me, I think, effective in what I did in my
career.
Dr. Michael Koren (16:27):
Yeah I love that, I love that.
So I'm going to transition alittle bit here
Because I know the other thingthat you're very passionate
about is communicating with thepublic.
Dr. Michael Myers (16:28):
Yes.
Dr. Michael Koren (16:28):
In fact you have a book that you've
published related to theCOVID-19 pandemic and you
Dr. Michael Myers (16:28):
So like a lot of us, literally caught by
surprise in March of 2020, Allof us in medicine have our own
unique stories, but people likeme in medical leadership had to
turn on a dime and becomeinfectious disease specialists,
epidemiologists, public healthprofessionals to sort of
understand how to lead ourpractice groups through this new
pandemic.
So I literally found myselfbecoming all those things right.
(16:50):
I had to learn about infectiousdiseases, I had to learn about
epidemiology things about publichealth, and literally, as you
remember, the news about COVIDwas changing almost hour by hour
, day by day, week by week,until even when we had a vaccine
that was developed in 11 months, there was still a lot going on
(17:12):
.
And then we had the variants,and so I found myself at the- oh
, here's what really happened: A college that was Judy Salerno (17:15):
undefined
(17:38):
our classmate is on their boardStonehill College in Easton,
massachusetts, contacted meabout being a scientific
consultant to their COVID-19program because they were trying
, like a lot of colleges, tokeep students in school and keep
workers and students safe.
So I was a scientific advisorto that effort for a while and I
really loved being in thecollege environment, and so from
there I actually became veryclose friends with the president
and the chief of staff and Iapproached him and said, hey,
listen, this COVID thing's goingto be over pretty soon.
You guys are going to fire me,but I really like Stonehill and
(18:00):
I have an idea for a course I'dlike to teach or a book I'd like
to write, and that's how Ibasically developed.
I taught two courses there.
One was a general course on theAmerican healthcare system and
the other was basically aseminar for senior health
science majors, which became mytextbook, Covidology, a field
(18:21):
guide.
So I used the seminar to dress,rehearse various ideas, and I
didn't even have an editor.
I just wrote a book proposaland I submitted it to the
acquisition editors of the threebiggest publishers of STEM
textbooks.
Two of them ghosted me.
One of them responded withinfour hours I want to give him
(18:42):
credit Chuck Crumley, CRC Press,Taylor and Francis Group.
That guy.
That guy got he got back to mewithin four hours literally of
submitting my book proposal.
He goes Dr.
Mike, this is a great idea.
We would love to work with you.
Let's go for it.
And we did.
And I literally wrote that bookin four months on the road
(19:04):
because we traveled.
We took a cross country tripfrom Boston to Palm Springs, my
husband and I and our little dog, because we thought we were
going to retire in Palm Springs,and I wrote COVIDology over
that four-month period when Iwas on California.
Dr. Michael Koren (19:20):
So cool, super cool.
Show the book.
I know you have it by you.
There you go.
You should be very proud of it.
Sars-cov-2 virus.
Very cool, yes, very cool.
Dr. Michael Myers (19:30):
Cover Spike protein, the prominent spike
protein Spike protein up thereright Like little nutmegs
sitting up there.
Dr. Michael Koren (19:41):
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, so show one more time, sothe audience can get a good,
look, there you go
Dr. Michael Myers (19:44):
At a Amazon near you.
if you use Amazon,
Dr. Michael Koren (19:47):
That sounds great Well.
I haven't read it yet, but it'snow on my list of things to read
.
So thank you for sharing that,and I know that you're looking
at another book as we speak, soI know that that's still in the
formative phases, but tell us alittle bit.
Dr. Michael Myers (20:01):
So the book's title is the Vaccine Bible From
Anthrax to Zika, nature's MostDestructive Germs and the
Science that Keeps Us Safe.
and I don't have to remindanyone that right now we are in
(20:23):
the throes of a watershed momentin our country's culture, where
leaders who are in charge offederal health policy around
vaccines or science or a numberof things, are frankly
anti-science, pseudoscience,anti-vax.
I'm not going to name names,but I think that there is going
(20:44):
to be a great Cue and cry andneed for what I call the Fannie
Farmer cookbook of vaccines.
People just want basicobjective.
Listen, you can have an opinionabout anything, but have an
informed opinion based uponactual facts.
Two plus two is four.
(21:04):
There is a law of gravity,there is germ theory, bacteria
and viruses and fungi andparasites exist.
These things are settled.
There is no question about anyof this stuff.
I don't know how I've ended upin this space, but I have ended
up as a huge proponent for thisgreat technology that is
(21:27):
historically responsible forsaving millions of people's
lives.
Just to say one thing back inthe late 50s we celebrated Jonas
Salk for discovering the poliovaccine.
There was a ticker tape parade.
I mean, people worldwide, youknow, lauded this.
Where has that feeling gone?
(21:49):
Where is that feeling, you know?
And so I'm hoping that throughthe Vaccine Bible, to add to, in
that space I am.
I'm not political, this is nota polemic.
I'm not arguing with people.
I want to give people who areeven vaccine skeptic but science
curious, information that willhelp them have a intelligent
(22:13):
conversation with their friendsand family, their daughters and
grandchildren and theirphysicians about vaccine
decisions that they're going tohave to make for themselves or
for their families.
That's what the vaccine Bibleis.
Dr. Michael Koren (22:27):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And you used a word in yourdescription of this passion of
yours, which is culture, and Ithink the culture of scientific
curiosity let's use that word orwanting to understand things
from a scientific point of view,was different in the 1950s
(22:51):
compared to the way it is today.
And I think that both of us havea passion around getting back
to the culture of scientificcuriosity and helping people
understand that we havescientific questions and we have
ways of answering thosescientific questions.
And although we don't knoweverything, there's certain
things we definitely know well,there's certain things we
(23:13):
definitely don't know and, ofcourse, there's a process to
figure out the stuff that wedon't know.
And to that point, you and Iwere just talking about
something we kind of crossedpaths in an interesting way.
So you told me how you got intothis public health space and
for me, as a practicingcardiologist that ran a lot of
clinical trials, I was calledinto service when COVID-19 hit
(23:35):
because I knew how to runclinical trials.
So here I am in NortheastFlorida with a large clinical
trial group and we needed totest these vaccines for a couple
of reasons.
One is all of our other studieswent away.
They were put on hold by thegovernment and the sponsors
because of concern about thecontagion of COVID-19.
And two, of course, withProject Warp Speed, there was so
(23:58):
much focus on getting theseproducts to the market as
quickly as possible and I got toparticipate then and, just like
you, learned a lot more aboutvirology and epidemiology and
other things than I would everimagine as a cardiologist, but
it was a fascinating learn, andas part of what I had to do, I
had to reach out to our localcommunity and get people
comfortable with the idea ofbeing in a clinical trial that
(24:19):
used messenger RNA vaccines, andso it was a fascinating
experience for me, and one ofthe things I learned early on in
this experience was that therewas a cross-cultural connection
between African and MiddleEastern culture and European
culture, and that happened inthe melting pot of the
Massachusetts Bay Colony inBoston, and so it was an
(24:41):
interesting story about somebodynamed Onesimus who was the
slave of Cotton Mather back inthe early 1700s, and I learned
this actually from an AfricanAmerican person at one of my
conferences.
I had never heard of Onesimusat that time and then did the
research to learn about it, butit's fascinating.
Onesimus was inoculated inAfrica, came to the colonies as
(25:02):
a teenager or as an older boy,and then eventually became a
slave to Cotton Mather, whonamed him Onesimus, by the way,
because that's actually the nameof a slave in the Bible.
It's in the New Testament whena slave, a Caucasian slave,
named Onesimus, ran away fromhis owner, who was actually an
(25:24):
early Christian bishop, and theapostle Paul was responsible for
trying to connectreconciliation between this
slave owner and this bishop.
So that's an aside, but that'swhat the name means.
It actually means useful orbeneficial in Greek, and so he
wasn't using his African name,he was using this name that
Cotton Mather came up with.
(25:45):
History is that the two of themcollaborated on an early
clinical trial in 1721, whensmallpox came to Boston from the
UK and everybody knew it wasgoing to come, because the
ssilors are coming back andforth and eventually they're
going to bring it.
And sure enough, this epidemicof smallpox hit Boston Back in
(26:06):
those days, literally, Mike, athird of the population could be
wiped out by smallpox.
And Onesimus and Cotton Mathergot together.
They inoculated about 200 or sopeople and the people who were
inoculated only had a 2%mortality rate versus a 16%
mortality rate amongst thegeneral population of Boston
during this pandemic.
So it was a really good exampleof one, a scientific experiment
(26:28):
that showed a difference.
Example of one, a scientificexperiment that showed a
difference.
Two, this cross-culturalcooperation, a concept that
really developed in Africa beingnow used by Europeans.
And three, reporting theresults, which is such a key
part.
If you do things and you justkind of learn from your own
experience, that's one thing,but then reporting the results
to the general public and toother medical professionals is a
(26:48):
really important piece of thissharing of knowledge.
And certainly you're pullingfrom that tradition by doing
what you're doing with yourvaccine Bible.
So again, we're super proud ofyou and thank you for the work
and we can't wait to see it.
Dr. Michael Myers (27:00):
Let me tease out a couple of things from that
story which I also findfascinating.
So this clinical trial was run,as you know, at a time before
formal germ theory was evenunderstood.
We didn't really understand howthese diseases were transmitted
or what they were caused by,right, people were still
believing in the humors and, youknow, bloodletting and other
(27:23):
things as a means to actuallycure diseases and ailments,
right, and so that's kind ofamazing itself.
I think the other thing thisillustrates too is the meaning
of meritocracy.
It doesn't matter that theoriginator of this idea was a
black man or black people.
Practically it worked.
He is showing how it's savingpeople's lives.
(27:46):
It doesn't matter that it was ablack person that did that.
If there's a benefit that we canderive from it, bring it on
right.
And to me that is what anyculture or any nation should
really relish and celebrate.
Is the ideas that we're able toshare that benefit all
irrespective of their source orwhere they came from.
(28:09):
Right, and unfortunately we area long way today from that, and
it's a sad comment here.
I don't know if you havefollowed Robert Rice.
He has a new memoir calledComing Up Short and he talks
about.
He basically apologizes onbehalf of our baby boom
(28:30):
generation he was born in 1946,for not leaving a better world
and actually creating the kindof meritocracy that they were
hopeful around developing, andbecause there's a lot going on
and I don't want to name namesor talk about people, but we're
a long way from that at thisparticular point, sadly.
Dr. Michael Koren (28:51):
Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, and I'm not sure I
wouldn't completely agree thatthere is a complete lack of
meritocracy.
But to your point, I think thatwe can do a better job.
But I think the way we all do abetter job is by just sharing
these important storiesincluding the Onesimus Cotton
Mather story, where people fromvery different cultures work
together.
Dr. Michael Myers (29:11):
And the history is important.
It's important to understandthe sources and the stories good
, bad and indifferent, right,this is part of history, yeah.
Dr. Michael Koren (29:20):
Right, absolutely, absolutely so.
To me that's fascinating.
And also, let's not forget thelearning of the past, I think,
is another important message.
I think sometimes that hasoccurred and it's really
valuable to remind ourselves ofthat.
So, again, we're lookingforward to seeing your book come
out, and it sounds like it'sgoing to be a nice primer that
(29:41):
will help people understand allthese things.
By the way, this comes up allthe time.
I was at a family event recentlyand we have a new baby in our
family and the parents of thebaby were asking me as a medical
professional not that I'm aparticular expert in pediatrics,
of course, but I know a littlebit about vaccines now and they
were concerned.
These are very educated peopleand they were concerned whether
(30:02):
or not it was safe to givemultiple vaccines to their young
infant all at the same time.
They said wouldn't it makesense if you spread it out more?
And I think that was a littlebit of a legitimate question,
one that I'm really notqualified to answer at all.
But the point being here isthat there's been a lot of now
questions about vaccines, whichare fair and legitimate, but
(30:24):
giving the vaccines are not inquestion.
You know, all these things aresafe and effective, and whether
or not we can do better at ourdistribution process or the
timing of these vaccines issomething that we're certainly
interested in research, but thatdoesn't take away from the fact
that vaccines save lives.
Dr. Michael Myers (30:41):
That's completely true.
And to directly answer thatconcern,.
It is not only safe andeffective, but it's also a
little more economical to givecertain vaccines together in a
combination, according to theimmunization schedules that have
been established by the Centersfor Disease Control and
(31:03):
Prevention.
Just to say one thing early Junethis year, a very important
committee called the AdvisoryCommittee for Immunization
Practices, the ACIP, wasdisbanded by the Secretary for
Health and Human Services andreconstituted.
ACIP has an extremely importantrole in examining the medical
(31:26):
and scientific evidence aboutvaccine use and applicability to
the American public and thenadvises the CDC director around
recommendations for how thosevaccines should be used.
They study meticulously all ofthe available science and
evidence at the time the vaccineis going to be reviewed, and so
(31:50):
when they make a recommendation, one of the things that people
should realize is that thatvaccine guidance has been vetted
to the extreme extent.
Everything has been looked atand they'll tell you.
You can actually go onto theirwebsite and you can look at the
evidence for yourself.
You can look at all the studies, read through all the outcomes
(32:13):
and all the concerns and look attheir recommendations.
And so when you look at theimmunization schedule that your
family members are following.
That schedule is based uponthese recommendations, which are
based upon science and vettedby these important policymaking
groups like ACIP and CDC.
Dr. Michael Koren (32:33):
Well, thanks for sharing that.
And yeah, we are in a bit ofuncharted waters in terms of how
a non-physician autocrat I'lluse that word to be polite is
maybe influencing things thatshould be scientifically based.
And that's about as politicalas I'm going to get right now
yeah,
Dr. Michael Myers (32:51):
I hear you, I hear you.
Dr. Michael Koren (32:53):
Yeah, but anyhow, Mike, this has been a
delightful, delightfulconversation.
A lot of fun for me.
Yeah, learned a lot.
Dr. Michael Myers (33:01):
Mike, I want to say I am honored and I really
mean that that you asked me tobe part of this conversation and
that we were able to reconnectthis past June at our HMS class
reunion.
There will be more.
I will be there, as I always amso this has been a delight for
me and a real honor.
Dr. Michael Koren (33:21):
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
Mike, thank you so much forbeing part of the MedEvidence
family and we'll definitely doit again, and good luck on your
very important book that'supcoming that we'll speak about
as soon as it hits thenewsstands or Amazon, as the
case may be.
Dr. Michael Myers (33:34):
Thank you so much, Mike.
I really appreciate it.
Announcer (33:37):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
Welcome to MedEvidence, where we help you
navigate the truth behindmedical research with unbiased,
evidence-proven facts Hosted bycardiologist and top medical
researcher, Dr.
Michael Koren.
Dr. Michael Koren (00:11):
Hello, I'm Dr .
Michael Koren, the executiveeditor of MedEvidence! And I
have a really fun job today.
I'm really excited about thispart of my job, which is to
interview my former classmateand a real leader in medicine,
Dr.
Michael Myers.
Mike, thank you for being partof our family here at
MedEvidence!
Dr. Michael Myers (00:30):
Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Michael Koren (00:31):
Yeah, so Mike and I caught up recently at our
reunion, our medical schoolreunion.
We won't tell you how many years.
It was because we want toprotect the innocent here, but
we had a fascinatingconversation and it reminded me
of a few things about Mike thatI really want to share with our
audience.
Mike was a true leader atHarvard Medical School and you
(00:53):
can imagine the kind of studentswe probably had about 165
people in our class and, quitefrankly, a few prima donnas
amongst us maybe but Mike reallypopped as a leader amongst
leaders and I'm fascinated totalk a little bit about him and
what got him to that point, andthen for him to share his really
interesting and unique careerpath that led to a major role in
(01:16):
administrative medicine.
So, Mike, welcome toMedEvidence and let's start
telling your story.
Where'd you grow up, how'd youbecome such a leader at Harvard
and how'd you get to bewhere you are now?
Dr. Michael Myers (01:38):
I grew up in America.
I was born in Kansas City.
And then, right when I was ababy, my mom and my dad were 17
and 18 when I was born, but myfather was the youngest of four
and his eldest sister, my auntStacy, was married to a surgeon
in LA.
(02:00):
And my dad wanted to finish hiseducation, and at that time
California provided tuition-freecollege education, so he moved
his whole family to Los Angeleswhen I was a little baby.
I was born in 1959,So I lived
Dr. Michael Koren (02:15):
You let the cat out of the bag.
Dr. Michael Myers (02:16):
Sorry, okay.
So I grew up in LA.
We stayed there until about1971.
And then we moved back toKansas City where I went to
sixth grade, junior, high, highschool, and then from there I
just started moving east.
I went to college in BaltimoreJohns Hopkins, Harvard Medical
(02:37):
School had my whole career inthe Boston area, got an MBA.
So that's kind of where I am.
I'm a citizen of the US of A,to be honest.
Dr. Michael Koren (02:48):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it, and tell us a littlebit about your medical training
.
What was your specialty and howyou got into administrative
medicine.
Dr. Michael Myers (02:57):
So I need to give complete credit to one of
my mentors, Dr.
Ronald Arky, who ran thePeabody group when - a society
we were at at Harvard.
He was my internship advisorand at the time we had to sort
of choose specialties.
I thought I was going to be adermatologist and I had done all
(03:21):
kinds of research in Derm andin MGH.
And I'm going to say thisbecause I literally believe,
Dr. Michael Koren (03:27):
And MGH, is Mass General Hospital.
Dr. Michael Myers (03:29):
Now it's known as MGB, Bass General
Brigham, to really highlight theprominence of Mass General over
everybody else, right?
So man's, man's greatesthospital, as we all remember
from the House of God Hospital,as we all remember from the
House of God.
So, anyway, I was on my bicycleleaving my research lab, you
know, riding to Somerville, andI heard, I literally heard a
(03:53):
voice, and this is what thevoice said to me.
The voice said zits.
That was what the voice said,zits, and I don't.
It was literally an audiblevoice and so I said, oh my God,
God's right, like I haveinvested all of this time and
effort in developing You've gotthe best education in the solar
(04:15):
system and you're going to throwit away to be a dermatologist.
I mean, this is really serious,Mike.
Okay, I'm really serious.
Dr. Michael Koren (04:23):
Okay, okay.
Well, again, apologies to ourdermatology colleagues who I
love and do really good work,but I hear you Keep on going.
Dr. Michael Myers (04:31):
I went to my internship.
I mean the whole thing was setin motion.
I went to Dr.
Arky.
I said, Dr.
Arky, I can't be adermatologist.
I said I heard from God.
He spoke to me from on high.
He put his I don't know if youknow Ron Arky, but he's a very
he's a very unassuming quiet guy.
He kind of put his he's kind ofa big teddy bear.
(04:51):
He kind of put his arm aroundme.
He said Mike.
He said Mike, you belong atMount Auburn Hospital as a
primary care doctor.
That's where you belong.
And so that's how I ended up atMount Auburn in primary care
and then the rest is historyfrom that point.
Dr. Michael Koren (05:12):
Yeah, wow, yeah yeah.
Ron was such a fabulous guy.
I was having a conversation withhim.
I had a similar conversationwith him when I was trying to
decide between medicine andsurgery and, yeah, so that was
kind of my decision point, butso keep on going.
So you ended up doing familymedicine, or what was your
actual medicine?
Dr. Michael Myers (05:30):
Internal medicine.
To be honest back then, and youknow Harvard in the mid
eighties was not a place thatencouraged people to pursue
family medicine or primary caremedicine, very research oriented
.
And I was kind of out therewith my interest in those areas
(05:53):
of work and so went to MountAuburn.
I've had pretty much a straightshot through the whole process
from kindergarten, so straightfrom grade school to junior high
, junior high, high high tocollege, college, med, and then
from medical school tointernship residency.
So I was at Mount Auburnbetween 1985 and 1988.
(06:15):
I had come from a family ofdoctors And dentist in Kansas
City, los Angeles and Texas.
The family I guess you wouldcall it the family model was
kind of hanging your shingle upand having your own practice.
So I did that.
I decided to pursue that inDorchester, Massachusetts, where
(06:36):
I had my first private practice.
Dr. Michael Koren (06:39):
Okay, interesting, interesting.
So, as I mentioned, you werecertainly a leader in our class.
So if you survey the members ofour class and say who are the
five leaders, your name wouldcome up for everybody.
So what was it about thatupbringing that led you to be a
leader at Harvard Medical School?
Dr. Michael Myers (06:58):
Well, probably a gift of gab, a real
drive toward excellence.
You know, and I just generallylike people it sounds a little
corny and sometimes it isn't somuch that you choose a
(07:25):
leadership position, but itchooses you.
I mean, the vacuum created bypeople having, not just good
ideas, but ideas that areactionable and people that are
willing to step in and to carryout those ideas is a fairly
small numerator.
So I've always been a personinterested in solving problems,
not necessarily complainingabout things.
I move very quickly throughKubler-Ross stages, right, I
(07:47):
don't stay in anger, depressionor bargaining, you know, I get
to acceptance and problemsolving.
That is really what a leader iscalled to do and paid to do,
not to kvetch and complain, butreally to solve problems.
And we have a lot of big onesand they won't go away, and so
that's kind of where I grew upand came in and the kind of work
(08:10):
I've done throughout my career.
Dr. Michael Koren (08:12):
So interesting, so interesting so
let's fast forward.
You were in private practicefor a while, but you ended up
having a good portion of yourcareer in administrative
medicine.
So how'd that happen?
Dr. Michael Myers (08:30):
So okay, so I am following the family model
shingle out in Dorchester,thinking I'm just going to be a
basic family doc.
This is the mid eighties, lateeighties, in Boston and
Massachusetts, not realizingthat the world around me was
changing.
You know, it was more aboutmanaged care, population health,
medicine.
All of these things were goingon and I am literally struggling
(08:52):
to hold on to what amounts tobe an inner city practice in the
outskirts of the Boston area,and I just found it to be
impossible to carry out.
I was basically at one pointworking three different jobs to
not only pay back student loansbut to support my very young
(09:13):
family and then also to pay theoverhead of my practice.
Just to tell one little tinystory from that moment.
So my son at that point was justa little kid and I remember I
would have this kind ofexistence where I would work my
day job, have on my scrubs, comehome for dinner, change and
(09:34):
then go to the ER or do roundsat the nursing home, because I
had my private practice nursinghome directorship and I would do
moonlighting at KearneyHospital and Trey would never
meet me.
Trey would never meet me at thedoor, you know, and he was
literally waiting there.
It was snot coming down hisnose and kind of looking at me
(09:57):
and he said to me he was alittle boy.
I still remember this.
It breaks my heart.
He said Daddy, daddy, are you areal doctor?
I said, yeah, I'm a real doctor.
So he goes because I need areal doctor.
And I looked down at him and hewas basically in the throes of
having an asthma attack.
(10:18):
I took, I took him to hispediatrician.
He had to be admitted toChildren's Hospital and put on
IV.
So that kind of illustrates howbusy I was.
I was not even observant enoughto see that my kid was so sick
that he needed to actually.
So he's like are you a realdoctor?
Because I have to go see a realdoctor.
So things were yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Michael Koren (10:39):
Well, you got him to where he needed to go,
so you were actually both a dadand a real doctor, From my
perspective.
Dr. Michael Myers (10:44):
It's kind of hard to balance that kind of
work life thing.
But anyway, I tried to pursuethis and, you know, did my best.
Anyway, then what happened issomehow I got into the Rolodex
of the media and I think mybyline was again something I
don't think you realize.
But I'll now tell the story.
(11:05):
Brilliant African-AmericanHarvard doctor fails miserably
in private practice.
That was kind of like my bylinepractice.
That was kind of like my byline.
So I was on 60 Minutes, I wason 2020.
I was on the cover of the BostonGlobe Magazine right in about
1988, 1989.
(11:25):
And that brought me to theattention of people at MIT in
their medical department ofcollege health service.
Arnie Weinberg, who I knew,called me up from my days at
Mount Auburn hospital.
He said Mike, you lookmiserable on the cover of the
globe.
Come work for us, come work forus, we'll make you happy.
So that's literally how I wentfrom, you know, closing down my
(11:47):
private practice over to MIT.
And you know, Mike, before wetake a bit of a pause, that is
really been the the trajectoryof my career.
It has been total serendipity.
It has never been like metrying to make things work.
It's like opportunities kind ofcome my way and then they come
(12:08):
at the right moment and I justgo for it.
So that's how I got my job atMIT, which was my last clinical
job, and from there I kind ofturned my ship.
Dr. Michael Koren (12:16):
But preparation meets opportunity,
so you were prepared.
Dr. Michael Myers (12:20):
That's one of my favorite quotes and it's
inside Vanderbilt Hall in theDome.
It's the quote by Louis Pasteurchance favors the prepared mind
.
Yes,
Dr. Michael Koren (12:30):
There you go.
Exactly I love that quote, yes.
Yep, absolutely so.
Then you went to MIT, I guess,to learn some management skills,
whatever happened there, andthen you ended up in New Jersey,
as I understand it, veryinvolved in running a doctor's
group, if I'm not mistaken.
Dr. Michael Myers (12:47):
So 11 different jobs.
I won't go through all of them.
Between residency, MIT was mylast position.
I got a call out of the bluefrom a headhunter indicating I
would be the perfect candidatefor a job at Blue Cross, Blue
Shield, and that's when I turnedmy ship.
So I became the associatemedical director for government
(13:07):
programs at Blue Cross, whichmeant that I helped to provide
medical policy insight forMedicare and Medicaid in this
region from Blue Cross.
Uh, they actually um paid for meto get an MBA and then, as I
was getting my MBA, laid me offright.
(13:27):
That was my first layoff.
So it laid me off across mybrilliant career and, um, I got
this great idea to start my ownbusiness, my own healthcare
consulting business, and I thenstarted my own business, or had
this business idea, shopped itaround to some people that I
(13:47):
knew at Coopers and Librant,ended up being hired there to
run a new division they werestarting.
Then Coopers merged with PriceWaterhouse Cooper's.
I was there for a bit, theylaid me off.
I started my own company, thenmore healthcare consulting and
then I ended up at PartnersHealthcare working for MGB and
(14:09):
the Brigham et cetera, andbasically kind of ran medical
groups as a medical directorfrom Partners to Hawthorne
Medical Associates, compass, andthen down in New Jersey at
Summit Health.
So that's kind of like thetrajectory of my brilliant
career in medicine, such as itwas.
Dr. Michael Koren (14:29):
So did you learn things from medical school
dealing with the prima donnasin our class that helped you run
these huge medical practices?
Dr. Michael Myers (14:36):
So, yeah, because there's a lot of big
egos that you have to manage andyou know what motivates doctors
, right, because all of us aresort of grade-grubbing pre-meds
we all think we're making A's inthe class when we really are
not and I think it's alsolearning how to motivate people
by understanding what makes themtick.
So that kind of knowledge Iwas marinated in at Harvard and
(15:02):
then it's kind of continued tocultivate and germinate as I,
you know, continued on, and Ithink that's kind of what made
me effective is that you know,managing positions is very hard,
right, because they areextraordinarily hardworking,
intelligent, ethical, very highstandards.
(15:23):
I'm going to say this.
They also like money, okay.
So I know I'm not supposed tosay that, but it is true.
Dr. Michael Koren (15:34):
Who doesn't?
Dr. Michael Myers (15:34):
This is American medicine, so this is
what it's all about.
So finding ways to thread thatneedle, sometimes to actually
influence, impact their behavioris it's not easy, but I had a
finesse and ability to do that.
So that's what made me, I think, effective in what I did in my
career.
Dr. Michael Koren (16:27):
Yeah I love that, I love that.
So I'm going to transition alittle bit here
Because I know the other thingthat you're very passionate
about is communicating with thepublic.
Dr. Michael Myers (16:28):
Yes.
Dr. Michael Koren (16:28):
In fact you have a book that you've
published related to theCOVID-19 pandemic and you
Dr. Michael Myers (16:28):
So like a lot of us, literally caught by
surprise in March of 2020, Allof us in medicine have our own
unique stories, but people likeme in medical leadership had to
turn on a dime and becomeinfectious disease specialists,
epidemiologists, public healthprofessionals to sort of
understand how to lead ourpractice groups through this new
pandemic.
So I literally found myselfbecoming all those things right.
(16:50):
I had to learn about infectiousdiseases, I had to learn about
epidemiology things about publichealth, and literally, as you
remember, the news about COVIDwas changing almost hour by hour
, day by day, week by week,until even when we had a vaccine
that was developed in 11 months, there was still a lot going on
(17:12):
.
And then we had the variants,and so I found myself at the- oh
, here's what really happened: A college that was Judy Salerno (17:15):
undefined
(17:38):
our classmate is on their boardStonehill College in Easton,
massachusetts, contacted meabout being a scientific
consultant to their COVID-19program because they were trying
, like a lot of colleges, tokeep students in school and keep
workers and students safe.
So I was a scientific advisorto that effort for a while and I
really loved being in thecollege environment, and so from
there I actually became veryclose friends with the president
and the chief of staff and Iapproached him and said, hey,
listen, this COVID thing's goingto be over pretty soon.
You guys are going to fire me,but I really like Stonehill and
(18:00):
I have an idea for a course I'dlike to teach or a book I'd like
to write, and that's how Ibasically developed.
I taught two courses there.
One was a general course on theAmerican healthcare system and
the other was basically aseminar for senior health
science majors, which became mytextbook, Covidology, a field
(18:21):
guide.
So I used the seminar to dress,rehearse various ideas, and I
didn't even have an editor.
I just wrote a book proposaland I submitted it to the
acquisition editors of the threebiggest publishers of STEM
textbooks.
Two of them ghosted me.
One of them responded withinfour hours I want to give him
(18:42):
credit Chuck Crumley, CRC Press,Taylor and Francis Group.
That guy.
That guy got he got back to mewithin four hours literally of
submitting my book proposal.
He goes Dr.
Mike, this is a great idea.
We would love to work with you.
Let's go for it.
And we did.
And I literally wrote that bookin four months on the road
(19:04):
because we traveled.
We took a cross country tripfrom Boston to Palm Springs, my
husband and I and our little dog, because we thought we were
going to retire in Palm Springs,and I wrote COVIDology over
that four-month period when Iwas on California.
Dr. Michael Koren (19:20):
So cool, super cool.
Show the book.
I know you have it by you.
There you go.
You should be very proud of it.
Sars-cov-2 virus.
Very cool, yes, very cool.
Dr. Michael Myers (19:30):
Cover Spike protein, the prominent spike
protein Spike protein up thereright Like little nutmegs
sitting up there.
Dr. Michael Koren (19:41):
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, so show one more time, sothe audience can get a good,
look, there you go
Dr. Michael Myers (19:44):
At a Amazon near you.
if you use Amazon,
Dr. Michael Koren (19:47):
That sounds great Well.
I haven't read it yet, but it'snow on my list of things to read
.
So thank you for sharing that,and I know that you're looking
at another book as we speak, soI know that that's still in the
formative phases, but tell us alittle bit.
Dr. Michael Myers (20:01):
So the book's title is the Vaccine Bible From
Anthrax to Zika, nature's MostDestructive Germs and the
Science that Keeps Us Safe.
and I don't have to remindanyone that right now we are in
(20:23):
the throes of a watershed momentin our country's culture, where
leaders who are in charge offederal health policy around
vaccines or science or a numberof things, are frankly
anti-science, pseudoscience,anti-vax.
I'm not going to name names,but I think that there is going
(20:44):
to be a great Cue and cry andneed for what I call the Fannie
Farmer cookbook of vaccines.
People just want basicobjective.
Listen, you can have an opinionabout anything, but have an
informed opinion based uponactual facts.
Two plus two is four.
(21:04):
There is a law of gravity,there is germ theory, bacteria
and viruses and fungi andparasites exist.
These things are settled.
There is no question about anyof this stuff.
I don't know how I've ended upin this space, but I have ended
up as a huge proponent for thisgreat technology that is
(21:27):
historically responsible forsaving millions of people's
lives.
Just to say one thing back inthe late 50s we celebrated Jonas
Salk for discovering the poliovaccine.
There was a ticker tape parade.
I mean, people worldwide, youknow, lauded this.
Where has that feeling gone?
(21:49):
Where is that feeling, you know?
And so I'm hoping that throughthe Vaccine Bible, to add to, in
that space I am.
I'm not political, this is nota polemic.
I'm not arguing with people.
I want to give people who areeven vaccine skeptic but science
curious, information that willhelp them have a intelligent
(22:13):
conversation with their friendsand family, their daughters and
grandchildren and theirphysicians about vaccine
decisions that they're going tohave to make for themselves or
for their families.
That's what the vaccine Bibleis.
Dr. Michael Koren (22:27):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And you used a word in yourdescription of this passion of
yours, which is culture, and Ithink the culture of scientific
curiosity let's use that word orwanting to understand things
from a scientific point of view,was different in the 1950s
(22:51):
compared to the way it is today.
And I think that both of us havea passion around getting back
to the culture of scientificcuriosity and helping people
understand that we havescientific questions and we have
ways of answering thosescientific questions.
And although we don't knoweverything, there's certain
things we definitely know well,there's certain things we
(23:13):
definitely don't know and, ofcourse, there's a process to
figure out the stuff that wedon't know.
And to that point, you and Iwere just talking about
something we kind of crossedpaths in an interesting way.
So you told me how you got intothis public health space and
for me, as a practicingcardiologist that ran a lot of
clinical trials, I was calledinto service when COVID-19 hit
(23:35):
because I knew how to runclinical trials.
So here I am in NortheastFlorida with a large clinical
trial group and we needed totest these vaccines for a couple
of reasons.
One is all of our other studieswent away.
They were put on hold by thegovernment and the sponsors
because of concern about thecontagion of COVID-19.
And two, of course, withProject Warp Speed, there was so
(23:58):
much focus on getting theseproducts to the market as
quickly as possible and I got toparticipate then and, just like
you, learned a lot more aboutvirology and epidemiology and
other things than I would everimagine as a cardiologist, but
it was a fascinating learn, andas part of what I had to do, I
had to reach out to our localcommunity and get people
comfortable with the idea ofbeing in a clinical trial that
(24:19):
used messenger RNA vaccines, andso it was a fascinating
experience for me, and one ofthe things I learned early on in
this experience was that therewas a cross-cultural connection
between African and MiddleEastern culture and European
culture, and that happened inthe melting pot of the
Massachusetts Bay Colony inBoston, and so it was an
(24:41):
interesting story about somebodynamed Onesimus who was the
slave of Cotton Mather back inthe early 1700s, and I learned
this actually from an AfricanAmerican person at one of my
conferences.
I had never heard of Onesimusat that time and then did the
research to learn about it, butit's fascinating.
Onesimus was inoculated inAfrica, came to the colonies as
(25:02):
a teenager or as an older boy,and then eventually became a
slave to Cotton Mather, whonamed him Onesimus, by the way,
because that's actually the nameof a slave in the Bible.
It's in the New Testament whena slave, a Caucasian slave,
named Onesimus, ran away fromhis owner, who was actually an
(25:24):
early Christian bishop, and theapostle Paul was responsible for
trying to connectreconciliation between this
slave owner and this bishop.
So that's an aside, but that'swhat the name means.
It actually means useful orbeneficial in Greek, and so he
wasn't using his African name,he was using this name that
Cotton Mather came up with.
(25:45):
History is that the two of themcollaborated on an early
clinical trial in 1721, whensmallpox came to Boston from the
UK and everybody knew it wasgoing to come, because the
ssilors are coming back andforth and eventually they're
going to bring it.
And sure enough, this epidemicof smallpox hit Boston Back in
(26:06):
those days, literally, Mike, athird of the population could be
wiped out by smallpox.
And Onesimus and Cotton Mathergot together.
They inoculated about 200 or sopeople and the people who were
inoculated only had a 2%mortality rate versus a 16%
mortality rate amongst thegeneral population of Boston
during this pandemic.
So it was a really good exampleof one, a scientific experiment
(26:28):
that showed a difference.
Example of one, a scientificexperiment that showed a
difference.
Two, this cross-culturalcooperation, a concept that
really developed in Africa beingnow used by Europeans.
And three, reporting theresults, which is such a key
part.
If you do things and you justkind of learn from your own
experience, that's one thing,but then reporting the results
to the general public and toother medical professionals is a
(26:48):
really important piece of thissharing of knowledge.
And certainly you're pullingfrom that tradition by doing
what you're doing with yourvaccine Bible.
So again, we're super proud ofyou and thank you for the work
and we can't wait to see it.
Dr. Michael Myers (27:00):
Let me tease out a couple of things from that
story which I also findfascinating.
So this clinical trial was run,as you know, at a time before
formal germ theory was evenunderstood.
We didn't really understand howthese diseases were transmitted
or what they were caused by,right, people were still
believing in the humors and, youknow, bloodletting and other
(27:23):
things as a means to actuallycure diseases and ailments,
right, and so that's kind ofamazing itself.
I think the other thing thisillustrates too is the meaning
of meritocracy.
It doesn't matter that theoriginator of this idea was a
black man or black people.
Practically it worked.
He is showing how it's savingpeople's lives.
(27:46):
It doesn't matter that it was ablack person that did that.
If there's a benefit that we canderive from it, bring it on
right.
And to me that is what anyculture or any nation should
really relish and celebrate.
Is the ideas that we're able toshare that benefit all
irrespective of their source orwhere they came from.
(28:09):
Right, and unfortunately we area long way today from that, and
it's a sad comment here.
I don't know if you havefollowed Robert Rice.
He has a new memoir calledComing Up Short and he talks
about.
He basically apologizes onbehalf of our baby boom
(28:30):
generation he was born in 1946,for not leaving a better world
and actually creating the kindof meritocracy that they were
hopeful around developing, andbecause there's a lot going on
and I don't want to name namesor talk about people, but we're
a long way from that at thisparticular point, sadly.
Dr. Michael Koren (28:51):
Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, and I'm not sure I
wouldn't completely agree thatthere is a complete lack of
meritocracy.
But to your point, I think thatwe can do a better job.
But I think the way we all do abetter job is by just sharing
these important storiesincluding the Onesimus Cotton
Mather story, where people fromvery different cultures work
together.
Dr. Michael Myers (29:11):
And the history is important.
It's important to understandthe sources and the stories good
, bad and indifferent, right,this is part of history, yeah.
Dr. Michael Koren (29:20):
Right, absolutely, absolutely so.
To me that's fascinating.
And also, let's not forget thelearning of the past, I think,
is another important message.
I think sometimes that hasoccurred and it's really
valuable to remind ourselves ofthat.
So, again, we're lookingforward to seeing your book come
out, and it sounds like it'sgoing to be a nice primer that
(29:41):
will help people understand allthese things.
By the way, this comes up allthe time.
I was at a family event recentlyand we have a new baby in our
family and the parents of thebaby were asking me as a medical
professional not that I'm aparticular expert in pediatrics,
of course, but I know a littlebit about vaccines now and they
were concerned.
These are very educated peopleand they were concerned whether
(30:02):
or not it was safe to givemultiple vaccines to their young
infant all at the same time.
They said wouldn't it makesense if you spread it out more?
And I think that was a littlebit of a legitimate question,
one that I'm really notqualified to answer at all.
But the point being here isthat there's been a lot of now
questions about vaccines, whichare fair and legitimate, but
(30:24):
giving the vaccines are not inquestion.
You know, all these things aresafe and effective, and whether
or not we can do better at ourdistribution process or the
timing of these vaccines issomething that we're certainly
interested in research, but thatdoesn't take away from the fact
that vaccines save lives.
Dr. Michael Myers (30:41):
That's completely true.
And to directly answer thatconcern,.
It is not only safe andeffective, but it's also a
little more economical to givecertain vaccines together in a
combination, according to theimmunization schedules that have
been established by the Centersfor Disease Control and
(31:03):
Prevention.
Just to say one thing early Junethis year, a very important
committee called the AdvisoryCommittee for Immunization
Practices, the ACIP, wasdisbanded by the Secretary for
Health and Human Services andreconstituted.
ACIP has an extremely importantrole in examining the medical
(31:26):
and scientific evidence aboutvaccine use and applicability to
the American public and thenadvises the CDC director around
recommendations for how thosevaccines should be used.
They study meticulously all ofthe available science and
evidence at the time the vaccineis going to be reviewed, and so
(31:50):
when they make a recommendation, one of the things that people
should realize is that thatvaccine guidance has been vetted
to the extreme extent.
Everything has been looked atand they'll tell you.
You can actually go onto theirwebsite and you can look at the
evidence for yourself.
You can look at all the studies, read through all the outcomes
(32:13):
and all the concerns and look attheir recommendations.
And so when you look at theimmunization schedule that your
family members are following.
That schedule is based uponthese recommendations, which are
based upon science and vettedby these important policymaking
groups like ACIP and CDC.
Dr. Michael Koren (32:33):
Well, thanks for sharing that.
And yeah, we are in a bit ofuncharted waters in terms of how
a non-physician autocrat I'lluse that word to be polite is
maybe influencing things thatshould be scientifically based.
And that's about as politicalas I'm going to get right now
yeah,
Dr. Michael Myers (32:51):
I hear you, I hear you.
Dr. Michael Koren (32:53):
Yeah, but anyhow, Mike, this has been a
delightful, delightfulconversation.
A lot of fun for me.
Yeah, learned a lot.
Dr. Michael Myers (33:01):
Mike, I want to say I am honored and I really
mean that that you asked me tobe part of this conversation and
that we were able to reconnectthis past June at our HMS class
reunion.
There will be more.
I will be there, as I always amso this has been a delight for
me and a real honor.
Dr. Michael Koren (33:21):
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
Mike, thank you so much forbeing part of the MedEvidence
family and we'll definitely doit again, and good luck on your
very important book that'supcoming that we'll speak about
as soon as it hits thenewsstands or Amazon, as the
case may be.
Dr. Michael Myers (33:34):
Thank you so much, Mike.
I really appreciate it.
Announcer (33:37):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
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