August 15, 2025 • 10 mins
Dr. Michael Koren Joins Kevin Geddings to discuss how the current political situation in Washington, D.C. is interfering with clinical research. They discuss the Vaxart trial, that is looking at the next generation of oral COVID vaccines, and how it has been affected by the Trump administration's inconsistent orders regarding vaccines. Dr. Koren points out that the Vaxart trial doesn't actually use mRNA and is poised to be a solution beyond this technology, but that the administration has stopped (at least temporarily) this research anyway.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:00):
Welcome to the MedEvidence Monday Minute Radio
Show hosted by Kevin Geddings ofWSOS St Augustine Radio and
powered by ECNORE Research Group.
Each Monday morning, Dr.
Michael Koren calls in to bringyou the latest medical updates
with insightful discussions.
Medevidence is where we helpyou navigate the real truth
behind medical research, withboth a clinical and research
(00:20):
perspective.
So sit back, relax and getready to learn about the truth
behind the data in medicine andhealthcare.
This is MedEvidence!
Kevin Geddings (00:30):
We appreciate Dr .
Michael Koren and his patiencein joining us.
We've had some technical issuesafter a lightning strike over
the weekend here at the radiostation, but Dr.
Koren has been hanging in.
There been a real trooper.
Thank you, doc.
How are you doing this morning?
Dr. Michael Koren (00:51):
I'm doing well, Kevin.
Good morning
Kevin Geddings (00:51):
Yes, good morning.
Lots going on with how wehandle vaccinations, how we
handle disease prevention andthe like, with the change in
administrations and, of course,a brand new Secretary of Health
and Human Services.
I'm not sure we've ever had somuch drama at HHS, at least in
my lifetime, but there's a lotgoing on there, correct?
Dr. Michael Koren (01:04):
Oh, there is, there is.
You know, you and I usuallydon't talk politics, but every
once in a while I guess you haveto.
Yeah, and we have a situationthat we're particularly aware of
where we have somebody runningHHS who has historically been
against vaccines.
When he was confirmed, he saidhe would support vaccines to the
(01:27):
extent that scientific evidenceis available to justify the
vaccines, which is reasonable,and then since then we've had a
lot of drama on vaccines.
So you and I have actuallytalked about a program that
we're doing that involves anoral COVID booster.
This is actually the nextgeneration of COVID vaccine.
(01:50):
It's not the mRNAs, it'sanother way of presenting the
antigen or the part of theprotein of COVID that actually
elicits an immune response, andso we would think that's
something that thisadministration would be really
excited about.
Well, unfortunately, this studyand the work that we've been
doing has had very bumpy startsin the current environment.
(02:13):
So this is a study that weactually started last year, and
in February we got word from thesponsor that this study would
be put on hold indefinitely asDOGE was evaluating the study
and we figured it would go away.
But in fact it came back in Mayand they said we're going to go,
we're going to do this study.
It's going to be a 10,000patient study around the United
(02:34):
States and it's actually beingfunded by BARDA, which is part
of the federal government thatprotects us against bioterrorism
threats, so, interestingly,it's actually being supported by
the Department of Defense.
Well, fast forward to last weekand HHS announced that they
were no longer supporting mRNAsresearch, and that happened
(02:59):
simultaneously with our sites,our research organization,
getting a stop work orderstating that all the work on
this vaccine study, which iscalled the Vaxart study, would
be halted.
And this is head-scratching,Kevin, because the HHS statement
says that they don't want tosupport mRNA research because
(03:19):
they want to support other typesof research, that they actually
stopped the vaccine study thatlooked at the next generation of
COVID vaccines.
So maybe you can explain thatto me.
I know you have a little bit ofa political background.
Kevin Geddings (03:33):
Well, it's so inconsistent and, of course, to
the credit of the first Trumpadministration, they did a lot
in this area to help us dealwith COVID right.
Dr. Michael Koren (03:41):
Totally.
The other crazy part of thiswhole thing is that a crowning
achievement of the first Trumpadministration was Project Warp
Speed.
They got these mRNA vaccinesfrom the bench to the patient
within less than a year, whichis unheard of.
It was absolutely unbelievable.
And now, during the secondadministration, there's this
(04:02):
word about faith, but it'stotally inconsistent.
It's it's.
You can deal with a philosophy,but you can't deal with a
changing philosophy.
It's very difficult.
Kevin Geddings (04:19):
Right and I know there's a lot of politics and a
lot of different opinions aboutthe different effectiveness
ofthe COVID vaccines, butoverall, we're all pretty
confident, including most folksin the Trump administration that
millions of lives were savedfrom the COVID vaccine, Correct?
Dr. Michael Koren (04:29):
No doubt.
No doubt you and I have chattedabout this as well.
What we've learned from COVIDis that it was a devastating
illness, particularly early on,for vulnerable people, including
people who are over the age of65.
It was less severe of anillness for younger people.
The flip side is that peoplewho are younger were more likely
(04:49):
to have an adverse reaction tothe vaccine Again very rare, but
they were still more likely tohave it.
And older people actuallytolerated it pretty darn well.
So the obvious conclusionshould be well, the older and
more vulnerable people get itand the younger, healthier
people don't have to get it.
That would have been thereasonable way to look at it.
Of course there's all thesediscussions about mandates and
(05:10):
back and forth, but there wasnever really a doubt about who
the vaccine worked in and whowas a little bit more prone for
side effects.
And, by the way, those sideeffects are really really rare.
We're talking about, you know,1 in 40,000, 1 in 50,000 so just
put that into perspective.
But so this whole thing hasturned to becoming a medical
discussion about who should betargeted for the vaccine.
(05:31):
It's turned into vaccines aregood or bad, or mRNA is good or
bad.
Well, remind everybody thatmRNA is actually Nobel Prize
winning technology.
It's just absolutely amazing.
It's American technology.
I think I mentioned this before.
One of the Nobel Prize winnersis actually my classmate in
college.
I took that course with thisguy.
And it's solid stuff.
(05:53):
It really makes a difference inpeople's lives, and to want to
ban mRNA would be foolish.
Now.
The good news is that privateindustry can still support the
mRNA research, but then to saythe next generation's vaccine
shouldn't be developed is justabsurd.
So we're in this strange place,Kevin, and hopefully there'll
(06:14):
be some reasonable resolution.
People should talk to theirrepresentatives, let them know
that they're supportive of thesehealth care initiatives,
they're supportive of doingresearch in communities, that we
, as you know, really make adifference in people's lives,
(06:35):
either through the treatmentsthat we are able to develop, or
just because people have a greatexperience with research, so
unfortunately there's negativeconsequences in our community.
Kevin Geddings (06:41):
Yeah, no absolutely.
It would strike me too that itputs us farther behind the eight
ball for the next pandemic.
And maybe there's not anotherCOVID, but there's always
something else out there,whether it's an Ebola or
something else.
Correct, and now we're justkind of stalled?
Dr. Michael Koren (06:56):
Absolutely Again, covid was a different
type of coronavirus, socoronaviruses are ubiquitous.
It could be a different typethat comes out, or a change in
influenza virus or parainfluenza.
There's lots of differentviruses out there that can
mutate and cause severe illnessin a pandemic.
So it's always around thecorner.
You know, you've seen it in ourlifetimes with the Hong Kong
(07:20):
flu and then we had the swineflu and COVID.
So there's all these waves ofviral illnesses that we need to
be prepared for, and mRNAactually helps us get prepared
really quickly, because withthis technology we literally can
develop a vaccine within weeks,almost days.
So it's really quite remarkable.
Kevin Geddings (07:39):
Yeah Well, any questions you have, not only
about vaccines but your overallhealth in general, various other
chronic conditions you may bedealing with or a loved one is
dealing with chronic conditionsyou may be dealing with, or a
loved one is dealing with agreat source for medical
information you can trust that'soutside of politics.
You know that's based on factand truth.
Go to MedEvidence.
com, right, Dr.
Koren.
Dr. Michael Koren (08:00):
Absolutely.
It is our platform to explainthe Truth Behind the Data, help
people understand it.
The conflicting claims on theinternet are just mind-boggling.
I just get so many calls.
I read somewhere or I heardsomewhere on the internet that
this supplement will preventAlzheimer's or will change my
(08:21):
blood pressure or help me sleep,for the case may be, and I look
at these things and very rarelyare there data or studies to
support these claims, whereaseverything we do is based on
science, based on studies thatsupport the claim.
So, whether it's giving yourcholesterol check, your
lipoprotein( a) check or dealingwith obesity, we have lots of
(08:41):
studies doing that.
Dealing with congestive heartfailure, dealing with arthritis,
we have means of dealing withall these things in a scientific
environment.
The truth behind the data, andyou get that information from
MedEvidence!
Kevin Geddings (08:53):
Y eah definitely Trust MedEvidence, not Snapchat
or Instagram or wherever you'regetting your information.
This is science-backedinformation that's right,
available for you, at yourfingertips.
All you have to do is go toMedEvidence.
com.
That's MedEvidence.
com.
Also, if you would like toparticipate in some leading
clinical trials, you can do that.
It's pretty cool.
You can do it from right herein St.
(09:14):
John's County, ENCORE ResearchGroup.
They have offices right nextdoor to UF Flagler Hospital, off
of 312 in the WhetstoneBuilding, and there's a team
there that's ready to connectyou with some of these clinical
trials.
The best way to get started isto call them.
I'm going to give you thislocal phone number 904-730-0166.
Punch this into your cell phone904-730-0166.
(09:39):
And if you can't remember that,at least remember this website
EncoreDocs.
com.
That's spelled with an E-EncoreDocscom.
Well, Dr.
Koren, thank you very much forjoining us and we'll talk to you
again next week, okay.
Dr. Michael Koren (09:53):
Sounds great.
Hopefully you'll repair thestudio from the lightning strike
.
Kevin Geddings (09:57):
Yeah, we're working.
It Got a big old reel of ducttape, so we're doing pretty good
.
Announcer (10:02):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
Welcome to the MedEvidence Monday Minute Radio
Show hosted by Kevin Geddings ofWSOS St Augustine Radio and
powered by ECNORE Research Group.
Each Monday morning, Dr.
Michael Koren calls in to bringyou the latest medical updates
with insightful discussions.
Medevidence is where we helpyou navigate the real truth
behind medical research, withboth a clinical and research
(00:20):
perspective.
So sit back, relax and getready to learn about the truth
behind the data in medicine andhealthcare.
This is MedEvidence!
Kevin Geddings (00:30):
We appreciate Dr .
Michael Koren and his patiencein joining us.
We've had some technical issuesafter a lightning strike over
the weekend here at the radiostation, but Dr.
Koren has been hanging in.
There been a real trooper.
Thank you, doc.
How are you doing this morning?
Dr. Michael Koren (00:51):
I'm doing well, Kevin.
Good morning
Kevin Geddings (00:51):
Yes, good morning.
Lots going on with how wehandle vaccinations, how we
handle disease prevention andthe like, with the change in
administrations and, of course,a brand new Secretary of Health
and Human Services.
I'm not sure we've ever had somuch drama at HHS, at least in
my lifetime, but there's a lotgoing on there, correct?
Dr. Michael Koren (01:04):
Oh, there is, there is.
You know, you and I usuallydon't talk politics, but every
once in a while I guess you haveto.
Yeah, and we have a situationthat we're particularly aware of
where we have somebody runningHHS who has historically been
against vaccines.
When he was confirmed, he saidhe would support vaccines to the
(01:27):
extent that scientific evidenceis available to justify the
vaccines, which is reasonable,and then since then we've had a
lot of drama on vaccines.
So you and I have actuallytalked about a program that
we're doing that involves anoral COVID booster.
This is actually the nextgeneration of COVID vaccine.
(01:50):
It's not the mRNAs, it'sanother way of presenting the
antigen or the part of theprotein of COVID that actually
elicits an immune response, andso we would think that's
something that thisadministration would be really
excited about.
Well, unfortunately, this studyand the work that we've been
doing has had very bumpy startsin the current environment.
(02:13):
So this is a study that weactually started last year, and
in February we got word from thesponsor that this study would
be put on hold indefinitely asDOGE was evaluating the study
and we figured it would go away.
But in fact it came back in Mayand they said we're going to go,
we're going to do this study.
It's going to be a 10,000patient study around the United
(02:34):
States and it's actually beingfunded by BARDA, which is part
of the federal government thatprotects us against bioterrorism
threats, so, interestingly,it's actually being supported by
the Department of Defense.
Well, fast forward to last weekand HHS announced that they
were no longer supporting mRNAsresearch, and that happened
(02:59):
simultaneously with our sites,our research organization,
getting a stop work orderstating that all the work on
this vaccine study, which iscalled the Vaxart study, would
be halted.
And this is head-scratching,Kevin, because the HHS statement
says that they don't want tosupport mRNA research because
(03:19):
they want to support other typesof research, that they actually
stopped the vaccine study thatlooked at the next generation of
COVID vaccines.
So maybe you can explain thatto me.
I know you have a little bit ofa political background.
Kevin Geddings (03:33):
Well, it's so inconsistent and, of course, to
the credit of the first Trumpadministration, they did a lot
in this area to help us dealwith COVID right.
Dr. Michael Koren (03:41):
Totally.
The other crazy part of thiswhole thing is that a crowning
achievement of the first Trumpadministration was Project Warp
Speed.
They got these mRNA vaccinesfrom the bench to the patient
within less than a year, whichis unheard of.
It was absolutely unbelievable.
And now, during the secondadministration, there's this
(04:02):
word about faith, but it'stotally inconsistent.
It's it's.
You can deal with a philosophy,but you can't deal with a
changing philosophy.
It's very difficult.
Kevin Geddings (04:19):
Right and I know there's a lot of politics and a
lot of different opinions aboutthe different effectiveness
ofthe COVID vaccines, butoverall, we're all pretty
confident, including most folksin the Trump administration that
millions of lives were savedfrom the COVID vaccine, Correct?
Dr. Michael Koren (04:29):
No doubt.
No doubt you and I have chattedabout this as well.
What we've learned from COVIDis that it was a devastating
illness, particularly early on,for vulnerable people, including
people who are over the age of65.
It was less severe of anillness for younger people.
The flip side is that peoplewho are younger were more likely
(04:49):
to have an adverse reaction tothe vaccine Again very rare, but
they were still more likely tohave it.
And older people actuallytolerated it pretty darn well.
So the obvious conclusionshould be well, the older and
more vulnerable people get itand the younger, healthier
people don't have to get it.
That would have been thereasonable way to look at it.
Of course there's all thesediscussions about mandates and
(05:10):
back and forth, but there wasnever really a doubt about who
the vaccine worked in and whowas a little bit more prone for
side effects.
And, by the way, those sideeffects are really really rare.
We're talking about, you know,1 in 40,000, 1 in 50,000 so just
put that into perspective.
But so this whole thing hasturned to becoming a medical
discussion about who should betargeted for the vaccine.
(05:31):
It's turned into vaccines aregood or bad, or mRNA is good or
bad.
Well, remind everybody thatmRNA is actually Nobel Prize
winning technology.
It's just absolutely amazing.
It's American technology.
I think I mentioned this before.
One of the Nobel Prize winnersis actually my classmate in
college.
I took that course with thisguy.
And it's solid stuff.
(05:53):
It really makes a difference inpeople's lives, and to want to
ban mRNA would be foolish.
Now.
The good news is that privateindustry can still support the
mRNA research, but then to saythe next generation's vaccine
shouldn't be developed is justabsurd.
So we're in this strange place,Kevin, and hopefully there'll
(06:14):
be some reasonable resolution.
People should talk to theirrepresentatives, let them know
that they're supportive of thesehealth care initiatives,
they're supportive of doingresearch in communities, that we
, as you know, really make adifference in people's lives,
(06:35):
either through the treatmentsthat we are able to develop, or
just because people have a greatexperience with research, so
unfortunately there's negativeconsequences in our community.
Kevin Geddings (06:41):
Yeah, no absolutely.
It would strike me too that itputs us farther behind the eight
ball for the next pandemic.
And maybe there's not anotherCOVID, but there's always
something else out there,whether it's an Ebola or
something else.
Correct, and now we're justkind of stalled?
Dr. Michael Koren (06:56):
Absolutely Again, covid was a different
type of coronavirus, socoronaviruses are ubiquitous.
It could be a different typethat comes out, or a change in
influenza virus or parainfluenza.
There's lots of differentviruses out there that can
mutate and cause severe illnessin a pandemic.
So it's always around thecorner.
You know, you've seen it in ourlifetimes with the Hong Kong
(07:20):
flu and then we had the swineflu and COVID.
So there's all these waves ofviral illnesses that we need to
be prepared for, and mRNAactually helps us get prepared
really quickly, because withthis technology we literally can
develop a vaccine within weeks,almost days.
So it's really quite remarkable.
Kevin Geddings (07:39):
Yeah Well, any questions you have, not only
about vaccines but your overallhealth in general, various other
chronic conditions you may bedealing with or a loved one is
dealing with chronic conditionsyou may be dealing with, or a
loved one is dealing with agreat source for medical
information you can trust that'soutside of politics.
You know that's based on factand truth.
Go to MedEvidence.
com, right, Dr.
Koren.
Dr. Michael Koren (08:00):
Absolutely.
It is our platform to explainthe Truth Behind the Data, help
people understand it.
The conflicting claims on theinternet are just mind-boggling.
I just get so many calls.
I read somewhere or I heardsomewhere on the internet that
this supplement will preventAlzheimer's or will change my
(08:21):
blood pressure or help me sleep,for the case may be, and I look
at these things and very rarelyare there data or studies to
support these claims, whereaseverything we do is based on
science, based on studies thatsupport the claim.
So, whether it's giving yourcholesterol check, your
lipoprotein( a) check or dealingwith obesity, we have lots of
(08:41):
studies doing that.
Dealing with congestive heartfailure, dealing with arthritis,
we have means of dealing withall these things in a scientific
environment.
The truth behind the data, andyou get that information from
MedEvidence!
Kevin Geddings (08:53):
Y eah definitely Trust MedEvidence, not Snapchat
or Instagram or wherever you'regetting your information.
This is science-backedinformation that's right,
available for you, at yourfingertips.
All you have to do is go toMedEvidence.
com.
That's MedEvidence.
com.
Also, if you would like toparticipate in some leading
clinical trials, you can do that.
It's pretty cool.
You can do it from right herein St.
(09:14):
John's County, ENCORE ResearchGroup.
They have offices right nextdoor to UF Flagler Hospital, off
of 312 in the WhetstoneBuilding, and there's a team
there that's ready to connectyou with some of these clinical
trials.
The best way to get started isto call them.
I'm going to give you thislocal phone number 904-730-0166.
Punch this into your cell phone904-730-0166.
(09:39):
And if you can't remember that,at least remember this website
EncoreDocs.
com.
That's spelled with an E-EncoreDocscom.
Well, Dr.
Koren, thank you very much forjoining us and we'll talk to you
again next week, okay.
Dr. Michael Koren (09:53):
Sounds great.
Hopefully you'll repair thestudio from the lightning strike
.
Kevin Geddings (09:57):
Yeah, we're working.
It Got a big old reel of ducttape, so we're doing pretty good
.
Announcer (10:02):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
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