October 6, 2023 • 46 mins
Ever wondered why reading isn't as natural as speech? Carolyn Strom, an accomplished early literacy expert, reveals that unlike speech, reading doesn't come naturally. In fact, it requires well-structured, explicit instruction which we'll discuss in this episode.
The importance of a structured approach to teaching reading cannot be understated. We'll be taking a deep look at the role of decodable texts, progress monitoring, phonemic awareness activities, and the necessity of a proper scope and sequence. And for those who believe that word memorization is the ultimate key to learning to read, prepare to have that myth debunked. Carolyn introduces the concept of mapping – associating the visual form of a word with its sounds and meaning, a vital aspect in learning to read.
As we delve further into the episode, we look into how critical practice and spoken language are in the reading process. Discover how word games can transform skill drills into an engaging and exciting experience for kids. We also have valuable insights for those working with bilingual or multilingual learners, as we discuss the significance of building spoken language and conceptual knowledge, which play a major role in comprehension. Finally, we'll discuss creating a conducive environment for students to learn and provide resources for further exploration. Join us for this captivating and educational journey into the world of early literacy.
Resources
- UFLI Foundations
- Letterland
- Spelfabet
- Stay connected with Carolyn!
- Stanislas Dehaene, How the Brain Learns to Read (book)
- Maryanne Wolf, Proust and the Squid (book)
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:01):
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
Join us as we focus on learningabout dyslexia this October.
Today we'll be talking toCarolyn Strom about three
misconceptions about how thebrain learns how to read.
Misconception one reading istaught, not caught.
Misconception two we map words.
(00:22):
We don't memorize them.
Misconception three the ideathat reading clicks without
practice.
What's wrong with practice?
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:40):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too.
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, Lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:57):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Melissa and LoriLove Literacy.
Today we're so excited becausewe are here with a guest who's
going to tell us about threemisconceptions about how the
brain learns how to read.
Yep.
So we have.
Melissa (01:09):
Carolyn Strom here today, who is a professor in the
Education Department at NewYork University and she's an
early literacy expert who Iactually got to see present at
the reading league last year atthe conference and she made this
really tough topic really easyto understand.
So I'm very excited to talk toher today.
So welcome Carolyn, thank you,thanks for having me All right
(01:32):
so we wanted to jump right inbecause, just like us, you were
a teacher, and not all the timewhen you have a professor of
education, where theynecessarily a teacher in the
classroom.
So we're really curious abouthow you went from a classroom
teacher to becoming interestedin studying, so specifically how
the brain learns to read.
Carolyn Strom (01:52):
So, yeah, I started my career as a first
grade teacher in Compton,California, and anyone that's
taught first grade knows thatreading is nothing Right.
We really want kids reading bythe end of first grade and I
really fell in love with theprocess of teaching reading.
I was lucky enough to have anexplicit phonics program open
court at the time.
California had this mandatearound open court and my kids
(02:15):
were reading and it is a reallyamazing experience being a first
grade teacher, having kidstransform into readers, so I
fell in love with it.
That's really what kept me inthe classroom for about 10 years
and during that time obviouslywent to tons of PD and tons of
and I had a master's degree.
But I realized that afterseveral years of teaching I
(02:38):
didn't really understand whatwas going on in the brain, even
though I was teaching kids toread right, I was doing all the
things and my kids were readersand I felt like a strong teacher
.
But when a mom actually said tome I see my kid working so hard
to sound out a word, what isgoing on?
I see him staring at thesewords, sounding them out what's
happening in the brain, and Icouldn't tell the parent.
(02:58):
I didn't know, even though Iknew how to teach reading, I
would have been making it up.
I realized that after all thesehours of PD and a master's
degree, I knew how to teachreading well, but I didn't
really know what was going oninside the brain and that just
didn't feel right to me in termsof a professional base, and
(03:19):
that's why I decided to go tograduate school and get a PhD
and really understand theresearch about how kids learn to
read.
Melissa (03:27):
But probably true for most teachers right that they
know the moves to make in theclassroom, but I couldn't have
said what was happening in thebrains of my students when they
were learning for sure.
Carolyn Strom (03:38):
Right, and when you begin to understand really
how something works, like how asystem works, then you can
figure out what's not working.
You know the mechanisms and Ididn't really feel like I
understood the mechanisms andthat even became clear when I
was working a lot with dyslexicstudents right after during my
graduate work and I was like Iwouldn't have been able.
(03:58):
I don't feel like I would havebeen able to do that if I didn't
have a deeper understanding ofhow the brain learns to read and
why the sound processing is soimportant.
So there's a lot there.
It's so rich, and I think thatsometimes the neuroscience
especially is really dense andwritten for people with a
background in neuroscience.
And I don't believe thateducators and families
necessarily need a deepbackground in neuroscience.
(04:20):
They just need to understandthe basics of what's going on in
the brain, in the same way thatwe would want our physical
therapist to understand anatomy.
Right, it's just understandinga little bit of what's going on
inside.
That really intrigued me.
It still intrigues me to thisday.
Lori (04:37):
Yeah, I think, as we dive into what's going on inside the
brain, you highlighted in ourpre-call three misconceptions
about how the brain learns toread and I think you just put
them so clearly that you'reright.
Like, even though I don't havea background in neuroscience, I
can still understand what you'resharing.
Is there a way to kind of juststart off with the first
(05:02):
misconception and then we willask you questions that pop up
along the way?
Carolyn Strom (05:06):
But maybe if you could start with that first
misconception and just kind ofexplain to us what are some
misconceptions about how thebrain learns how to read, so
I've encountered thesemisconceptions over the last
five or 10 years sort of workingwith teachers and working in
schools around change and earlyliteracy, and realized that a
lot of the families andeducators had these
misconceptions and that was kindof where some of the misguided
(05:29):
practices were coming from.
Right, it's that they heldthese sort of misconceptions and
the first one I'm sure we'reall very familiar with is that
reading is natural.
So there's this misconceptionout there that, just like kids
naturally learn to speak right,If we immerse them in spoken
language, then if we immersethem in print, we immerse them
with books, then they'll learnto read right.
(05:50):
And that's very prevalent.
You know, don't push the kidright, they don't necessarily
need instruction, it will comenaturally.
And that's just simply not true.
Learning to speak is verydifferent than learning to read,
and we can see all over theworld millions of people develop
spoken language and millions ofpeople don't learn to read
right, Because it doesn't justhappen spontaneously.
(06:12):
It requires schooling, itrequires instruction and it's a
code.
It's an invented code.
That's what the alphabet is,right, it's these squiggles,
lines and dots that representsounds that we came up with only
five or 6,000 years ago.
Right, it's a very newinvention.
So there's just no way thatit's something that occurs
(06:33):
naturally.
But what that ends up leading to, if we believe, right, that
reading is natural and it occursjust like spoken language, and
all we need to do is submergekids in print, then we're really
sort of turning away from theimportance of explicit
instruction, right.
So that's sort of the outcomeof this misconception is that we
(06:54):
say, oh, it'll occur naturally,let's wait, right.
Sometimes it's called the waitand see approach or the
maturation perspective.
They'll just evolve into that.
But actually, like, that justtakes away from how important
explicit instruction is.
Right, I often say that readingis taught, not caught.
For some kids it does, it feelslike it's caught, right, but
(07:15):
really for most kids it must betaught and that's if we believe
it's natural, then we're notgonna believe that right, Like
we'll just believe it will becaught and we don't have the
luxury to think like that.
Melissa (07:28):
That's such an important point that it does
actually kind of happen likethat for some kids, some
students, but that's not thenorm.
Carolyn Strom (07:37):
Right and for the kids that it happens with, it
may be that they got a lotinformally early on with their
phonemic awareness, for example,right and or their early
writing Like they may have had.
It may seem like it just poppedon right or clicked, but in
fact there's other things thatinputs they got that we can't
(07:59):
see.
Melissa (08:00):
Yeah, I just saw an anecdotal story somewhere,
probably on social media, wheresomeone said something like that
Like, yeah, their second childjust kind of picked it up.
They don't know where it camefrom, but it was actually
because they watched a lot ofwhat was going on with their
older, their older child, likebringing home homework and
working with them on things, andthey just saw some of those
things happening that theypicked up on those.
(08:20):
Yeah, it wasn't just a naturalthing, it actually still had the
input, right?
Carolyn Strom (08:25):
From somewhere else.
Right, exactly.
But I think it's a romantic.
It's a romantic version ofliteracy that like surround kids
with books and surround kidswith conversation and they'll
fall in love with this processand they'll naturally learn to
read.
And that's just not.
It's just not true.
We're not wired for this.
It's not going to work likethat and it requires structure.
Lori (08:48):
What would you say to parents or teachers who do say
that, like, oh, I just turnedaround and you know my child can
read.
Or oh, my child reallystruggled last year but they
stepped into a classroom thisyear and it seems like they've
really got it?
Carolyn Strom (09:04):
I mean, then I just say more power to you, like
that it's awesome, your kid isreading, your kid is not my
concern, honestly, like I'mconcerned about the kids who are
not reading and who everyone'ssaying, oh, they'll just get it,
but I do say, yeah, it may.
I say what I said before, likeit may seem like that, right,
but it's likely that there wasactually a lot of phonemic
awareness built in somewhere intheir life.
Right, and it's.
(09:25):
There are some kids thatprocess of building a circuit is
easier, right, but for mostkids we need to teach it and it
really doesn't hurt anyone toactually be explicitly teaching
and monitoring progress, right,and it doing sort of very
specific moves that are going topromote building a reading
circuit, because that is whatwe're doing, right, we're
building a circuit.
(09:46):
It's not we don't come with acenter for reading, so we ought
to build it.
Melissa (09:51):
Yeah, do you want to dig in a little bit more there?
I mean, you've alreadymentioned several things, but we
wanted to ask you about whatare the implications here for
teachers and for parents.
Like, what do we need to do ifnot just parents hear that all
the time?
Just immerse them and read tothem.
It'll be great, you know, butwhat does this really mean for
parents, and especially ourteachers of our youngest
students?
Carolyn Strom (10:12):
So of course, like yes, we want books in the
home, we want access tolibraries.
You do want tons of books,right, and texts, and you do
want to be reading to your kidsand you also want to be pointing
out environmental print, right,you also want to sort of make
kids not only aware of books butof print in the environment.
Stop signs, any kind of signs,the signs at your school logos,
(10:34):
cereal boxes, right.
Pointing out the print in theworld is definitely important,
right.
All of that are, I guess, quoteunquote natural right, using
what is in your environment, andwe want to have a print rich
environment, of course.
But also realize that we needto be explicit, right, and make
sure that kids are involved insome kind of instructional
program that has a scope andsequence, for example, right,
(10:55):
that doesn't just assume kidsare going to pick up the letter
patterns in our environment,right, because it's not
intuitive and it's not natural.
So when you're thinking aboutthe instruction your kid is
receiving, is there a scope andsequence?
Right.
Is there a plan for progressmonitoring?
Is there a plan for practice?
Right.
Are there decodable texts?
I mean I'm getting like superin the weeds here, right, but
(11:18):
like, these are like the Okay,great, great, so you want it.
You want there to be thesestructures, these specific
structures involved, right, andI'm not saying that at three
years old, you're doing letters,sound flashcards, right, that's
not what I'm saying, right, butyou're following some kind of
scope and sequence around eitherphonemic awareness, right, and
(11:40):
then awareness of sounds andthen moving into letter sounds.
There's a plan for writing,right?
There's a plan for teachinghandwriting.
There's a plan for how wehandle irregular words, right.
So, if we take thismisconception that reading is
natural and we accept no, it'snot, it needs to be taught, well
, then there's, like all scienceof teaching reading, right, and
(12:00):
that's the biggest implicationof accepting that we're not
wired for reading and it's notnatural.
Melissa (12:07):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I think I'm hearing
both from like.
If I'm a teacher at a school,these are things I should be
looking for in curriculum in mytraining.
I should be looking for to havethese and, if not, advocating
for them and same with parents,right as you're either choosing
a school or signing up for aschool, like looking and asking
for what is that?
(12:27):
What is the structure?
How's literacy being taught?
What's the scope and sequence?
Those seem like the rightquestions to be asking.
Carolyn Strom (12:34):
Yes, and as you're speaking, yes, exactly.
And as you're speaking, I'mjust like wait, there's a caveat
though.
Right, because we're talkingabout early childhood, we get
into talking about earlychildhood, right Three to five
year olds, three to six yearolds.
So there is also the.
We're not put.
You don't necessarily need topush right If a kid three years
(12:54):
old.
Right For a kid to be readingand writing.
Some kids with certain inputsare going to pick it up at that
age, but it is okay to be.
We want to be developmentallyappropriate, right?
So the letters and sounds andstructures there should be for
three and four year olds, right?
So that's going to be differentthan for five and six year olds
.
Does that make sense?
Right, it's going to be more,even more playful and more song
(13:17):
based and much more phonemicawareness.
So when I say prescribed andscope and sequence, I really
mean just like a plan, right, aplan that's developmentally
appropriate, but that there is aplan, not just a spontaneous.
We're going to surround themwith print and they're going to
begin to pick up how print andsounds work together.
Melissa (13:37):
That's so funny.
I have a four year old who juststarted in pre-K and they sent
home a paper that said what areyour goals for your student this
year?
And I started to go kind of.
I was like ready to write downall the things of all the letter
sounds and this and that.
And then at the end I was likeI'll still like have fun.
I want him to have fun and he'sa kid still.
Carolyn Strom (13:56):
And I have a four year old who just started
preschool too.
That's so funny and I've yes,I'm totally with you.
I'm totally with you.
You know, and yeah, exactly,you do want them to have fun.
You want them to have 20 to 30minutes of symphonemic awareness
and letters out, you know, youwant, you want them to have some
of that, but really you do wantthem to have fun and it is fun.
I mean, we'll get into that.
(14:16):
But phonics and phonemicawareness is fun.
You know, there's this kind oflike dichotomy out there that
like, oh, phonics is the boringstuff, it's the mechanics.
You got to just get through itto get to the meaning.
And like, teaching phonics isvery fun, right, you can make it
super engaging, it's so fun.
Kids get so excited, right,when they learn all the tricks
of our language and they learnthe way it works.
(14:38):
And it's a pattern, it's a code, so it can be fun.
It is fun, right.
So, and that sort of connectsus to some of the other
misconceptions.
Lori (14:45):
But yeah, I mean I just.
I have one last question aboutit, though.
If I'm a parent or a teacherlistening and I am hearing you
say explicit instruction with asystematic scope and sequence,
but I'm not sure what that means, do you have any
recommendations?
Because I think there's reallygood stuff out there and there's
not so great stuff.
(15:06):
So, like I can start with anexample.
So I've been seeing all thehubbub about you fly, so I
ordered myself a UFly manual,right, and it is very clear in
the if you're reading this UFlymanual exactly what the scope
and sequence is.
And then I'm also going to saythat I live in a district that
(15:26):
has Readers Writers Workshop.
They have the phonics.
It's very clear that thatphonics program was input like
kind of like backdated right, soit was like so okay.
So if I'm in a district and I'mseeing like a systematic scope
and sequence, I'm looking forspecific things, and if I'm a
parent, I probably have zeroidea, right, who's what I'm
(15:48):
looking for?
Carolyn Strom (15:49):
I mean, I'm glad you mentioned UFly.
I mean UFly.
So for any school that I workwith pretty much you know, we
either made the transition toUFly or are making the
transition to UFly away fromsome other phonics programs,
because UFly is so efficient.
It's efficient and it's very,it's very much like you can use
(16:09):
it tomorrow, right, it's, andthere's a tons of support, very
easy and games, and I mean areally great social media
community.
The Facebook UFly group iswonderful and so, and UFly is
basically free.
You just pay for the teacher'sguide, right?
So it's such a great programand I think it's a great model,
(16:29):
right?
So when I'm thinking about, like, the one of the things I love
about UFly is like it's 128lessons, right?
So no matter what grade, it'salways this.
That is like an amazing scopeand sequence.
We really know how it'sorganized, right, and you don't
cover all 128 in any grade,right, there are some you skip.
There's an order for each grade, but that's what we mean by a
scope and sequence we know thescope of what's being covered
(16:52):
and we know the sequence.
Melissa (16:54):
All right, Carolyn, can you tell us about the second
misconception?
Carolyn Strom (16:58):
Yeah.
So the second misconceptionthat you know I've experienced
in my work with educators andfamilies is around this idea of
how we actually learn to readwords from memory, right, how we
remember words, how we storethem.
And there's this misconceptionsometimes that we memorize words
right, especially irregularwords.
(17:19):
So a word like laugh, right,l-a-u-g-h.
But you know, you might tell achild like, oh, you just have to
memorize it, english is sotricky, english is so irregular.
There's this like memorizationperspective out there which
leads to looking at words asholes, that we memorize words as
holes somehow.
That's a flash card as flashcards, yep, and the word shape
(17:42):
method, right, and that's just areal misconception about how
learning happens, how we storewords in memory.
It really happens throughmapping, not memorizing, and by
mapping I mean like we'remapping the specific letters to
sounds or letter patterns tosounds, right, that's what we
see.
We see that in all of the brainresearch especially right.
(18:04):
We've talked about how we haveno center for reading, we have
to build the circuit.
And if we look at how we buildthe circuit, what we're doing is
we're connecting the visualform of the word what you see
with your vision, perception,right, with your vision, to
sounds and then to meaning.
So there's three primary areasof the brain.
Lots of other areas of thebrain that are involved, but
these three primary areas thatmake up, like, the neural form
(18:25):
of a word, right, and that'swhat we mean by mapping.
We're mapping a word'spronunciation right To the way
that the letters are, to itsletters and to its meaning.
Melissa (18:34):
So that's when you say mapping real quick, that's
literally what's happening inour brain, like those things
that you're talking about.
Carolyn Strom (18:41):
You're connecting , like the.
There are neurons right thatspecialize for vision to
recognize faces and objects,right, and so we're re-tuning
those neurons right so that theyrecognize letters of a specific
script and then can map thoseletters to a sound, right.
That's the first level ofmapping.
You have to map these letters,these squiggles, lines and dots,
(19:03):
right.
They don't mean anything,they're complete abstractions,
they don't mean anything.
We have to map them to sounds,right.
And once we do that, we map,let's say, the S and the H right
to shh and the I to N and putin rep shh.
If you've mapped the letters andsounds.
But now you need to map thatpronunciation and that letter
sequence to something, to a ship, right to what that means.
(19:26):
And now those three, thosethree representations, if you
will, are connected right, thewhat a ship is, how a ship
sounds and then what the letterslook like in sequence.
And the more you do that rightwe say the neurons that fire
together, wire together, themore that you connect those, map
or connect those threerepresentations, the more that
(19:47):
you're, you're, you're beginningto store, because it creates
like a little neural address Forthat word, kind of in what's
eventually stonis-less-to-hancalls the letter box is is an
area that we develop.
Experienced expert readersdevelop that is really
specialized for recognizingwords and letter sequences
within words.
But the first level of mappingis letter to sound or symbol to
(20:09):
sound right, and then we map theletter sequences to the
pronunciation and the meaning.
Melissa (20:15):
I'm curious about because Because the goal of that
is that if that becomes soautomatic, right that you see
ship and it's like you don'teven have to think about it.
You know the sounds, you knowthe word, you know everything
very quickly.
Yeah, that where themisconception comes from about
memorizing that it feels likewe're memorizing it because it
eventually becomes so quick.
Carolyn Strom (20:34):
I Think that I think that's right.
I think I'm not sure exactlywhere the misconception comes
from, but People have suggestedthat it comes from this idea of
like the experts blind spot.
Right, so all of us are expertreaders.
We read with automaticity, wedon't think about it, all of our
cognitive energy can go towardsmeaning, right, it's something
we're doing.
And so, for expert readers, weforget actually how, what our
(20:56):
brain was like before we couldread, and it does feel to us
that we're just, you know,memorizing the letter sequence.
But there's tons of studies toprove that that's not what we're
doing.
Although it was, it was anearly misconception and early
reading research as well.
But that's not what we're doing.
We, we map right.
Even even when part of a wordis irregular, we're still
(21:17):
mapping it.
Lori (21:19):
Yeah, it's like taking apart something that you can do
so fluently to to almost liketry to break it down to Be less
fluent so that you could figureout how you got so flu.
It's like really an impossibletask for an expert to do.
Carolyn Strom (21:33):
It's really bad and people have written about it
with musicians, right,professional musicians who, like
, don't remember what it waslike before they could do.
They can't describe what theydo because it's so in their body
and it's so automatic, right,and exactly that's that's for
for readers.
We have to, like we, we have toimagine what it's like to not
have this skill right in orderto understand how difficult it
(21:53):
is.
But the cool thing about ourbrains is that we have this
capacity for automaticity.
That's what I think is soamazing, right, like if you look
at a script that you've neverseen before, like I do this with
Korean, right, I don't, I can'tread Korean, but if I look at
something in Korean, it trulyjust looks like lines, just
squiggles and lines to me, right, and it's amazing to me that,
(22:14):
you know, I could theoreticallylearn to read that, so that it
would add it to it, to a placeof automaticity.
It's incredible.
So we have this capacity forautomaticity.
So then it feels like we'vejust memorized everything, but
we haven't.
We've mapped it right, and Ithink the power of understanding
the mapping, especially at the,at the letter level, is, like,
if you understand what our brainhas to do, right, in order to
(22:37):
recognize letters.
It's pretty phenomenal becausewe're using an area of our brain
I think I mentioned before thatthat is specialized for really
recognizing faces and objects,right, not letters, and so
that's why we see things likemirror invariance, so, which is
when kids confuse B and D and Pand Q, right, that's evidence of
the fact that they're usingthis part of their brain that
(22:58):
recognizes objects, and whenobjects are flipped, they're
still the same object, right.
So we're reusing this part ofour brain that actually sees
mirror images the same Right andwe have to unlearn that in
order to really acquire analphabetic literacy.
Lori (23:15):
That's so neat.
So what?
Like?
What could parents and teachersdo?
Like, what are the implicationsfor parents and teachers
listening in regards tomemorizing versus mapping
misconception?
Carolyn Strom (23:26):
So much, okay.
So first, when we think aboutTeaching kids letters and sounds
, right, we want to make itmeaningful.
And you know, if you think of aW, there's no reason why a W
like the zigzag W would saywhoop would make the whoop sound
.
There's no reason why when wewant to write whoop water, we
would spell it with a W, becausethe W starts with D, right, it
(23:50):
doesn't you, right?
So there's no correlation,right, and?
But when you use a methodcalled embedded pictures or
embedded picture mnemonics andmaybe you turn the W into a worm
and A kid, and the W is in theshape of a worm and a worm is in
the shape of a W, I don't know,it's visual, so I don't know if
I'm making any sense.
But, um, then a kid looks atthat, right, and they think what
(24:14):
worm, and so they associate theshape of the W With a, what
worm, and that's an embedded,embedded alphabet method.
That is really, reallybeneficial for young children,
even more beneficial if thecharacters are engaging, right,
and there's songs to go alongwith it and and rhymes and
(24:35):
handwriting.
Yeah, and the program that Ilike to use with preschools is
called letter land.
We've used that with a bunch ofpreschools.
It's one embedded picturemnemonic method, but there are
others.
I know that Spellphabet has oneonline I think they're based
out of Australia and it's justcards that have embedded
(24:56):
embedded pictures in thealphabet, and so I guess my main
takeaway here, and why I spenta little time on it, is that's
what makes sort of learning thealphabet can be fun, I Right.
So we want to make this sort ofabstract process it's called
paired associate learning, whenyou're looking at a symbol and
connecting it with a sound,right?
We want to make that meaningfuland fun, and one way to do that
(25:17):
is by embedded embeddingpictures into the alphabetic
symbols.
Melissa (25:21):
I was just going to say .
I see a lot of flags on those,so I think sometimes you have to
be a cautious consumer, rightOf like.
I've seen one, even where I'mnot even making this up, that
the K example was a knight likeK-N-I-G-H-T and I was like that
is the worst example.
There is not even a K sound inthere at all.
(25:43):
So, yeah, they're not all thatbad, but I know that some of
them do have some Right.
Right, Of course of course, justmake sure they're good ones,
and so letterland is one thatthere's.
Carolyn Strom (25:53):
Yes, there's a bunch of research around
letterland, which is why that'sthe one I always recommend.
So, yeah, definitely aconscious consumer.
And just because a letter isnext to an object does not make
it embedded right, it actuallyhas to be embedded in the
letter's shape if that makessense.
And yeah, so the other thing Iwanted to say about mapping, not
(26:17):
memorizing the implication ofunderstanding that we're not
memorizing, we're mapping, isreally for spelling.
So with spelling, the only wayto spell right is sequentially
right, take left or right,taking it sound by sound.
That really helps set up themapping in our brain.
And so over time, yes, it'sgoing to come automatic right.
(26:37):
Your hand or your fingers onthe keyboard are going to become
automatic with that right.
But if we understand that we'renot actually just like
memorizing the spellings ofthese strings, we're initially
mapping them all to sounds, andthat mapping them to sounds
really helps us set up thoseletter sequences in our brain,
then we'll, you know, I thinkpeople will pay more attention.
(27:00):
I'm hoping people will pay moreattention to the role of
dictation and the role ofhandwriting, because we know
that sort of the motor area ofour brain.
I call it the handwriting hub,but the motor area of our brain.
When we involve that area ofour brain in learning to read
right, it really helps build thecircuit more effectively.
Melissa (27:20):
I see this question a lot too.
That comes up where someonewill say their student or their
child you know they can readright, they seem like they're
reading really well, they'redecoding words, but then their
spelling is really not great andthe answer I always see which
you can correct me if I'm wrongis like well, they've memorized
words.
Then and that's like I mean,okay for right now, but that's
(27:44):
going to be a problem in thelong run.
Carolyn Strom (27:46):
Exactly, and they must have very.
They have a very good visualmemory, right.
Not all kids have that kind ofvisual memory.
If they, sorry, they must nothave very good visual memory,
right?
Students who seem to pick upspelling, like you said, I think
later they have a strong visualmemory.
But some kids don't right, andthey really need to learn those,
those mappings, reallysystematically.
So and I often say you know alot.
(28:07):
So there are some people thatsay, oh, my kid can read, they
don't need kind of an explicitphonics.
But first of all, it's usuallyonly 20, 30 minutes a day, it's
not like the whole day.
And second of all, it reallyhelps them develop spelling
pattern, like correct spelling,so important, so important.
And we should be carefulbecause you know there's a
there's a different kind ofcontinuum between spelling
(28:30):
mastery of decodable words andspelling mastery of irregular
words.
Right, it can take some kidsvery long way past first grade,
right, to remember the sequenceand map sort of irregular words
like laugh or through THROUGH,right.
But they will be able torecognize when they see them.
They'll be able to read thembut not spell them.
(28:50):
But with decodable words, right, that are multi-syllabic, like
napkin, right, we can masterthat much earlier than we can
master a longer irregular wordfor spelling.
Lori (29:00):
Carolyn, if, like what you just said, the kids might be
able to read it but not spell itas easily, for example the word
THROUGH like an irregular word,can you say more about that,
like why that is, and, asteachers or parents, is there
anything we can do to help?
Carolyn Strom (29:15):
Yeah, so you know .
The research answer would bewell, the representation is not
fully established right in theircircuit, right, so they can
recognize it right and they canratchet to pronunciation and
maybe they know the meaningright.
But until you can like reallyspell the word and you've
internalized the lettersequences and really tied these
(29:37):
three representations togetheralong with your motor memory, it
hasn't been fully establishedright.
And I think it probably goesback to the fact that
recognition is much easier thanproduction, right?
So in the same way that, likereceptive language, it develops
faster than expressive language,right, Reception and sort of
(30:00):
recognition of a word is mucheasier for, like your memory,
than production and actuallycreating the letter string.
But I don't think there's aname for that phenomenon.
When they can read it and notspell it, I think it's like the
representation isn't fullysecure.
Melissa (30:18):
All right, carolyn.
Is there anything else you wantto tell us about the second
misconception before we move tothe last one?
Carolyn Strom (30:24):
Yeah, I think the one thing I would just add on
this idea about we map words, wedon't memorize them right is I
want to emphasize that we'rereally mapping the how, like
letter, right.
Letter and letter strings tothe sounds and to meaning, right
.
So when we're teaching earlyword reading and decoding, it's
also important to talk aboutthat meaning of the word, right.
(30:44):
Decoding isn't just mapping,like blending sounds together
right, it is attaching tomeaning.
So there's a place, a veryimportant place, for vocabulary
development and word knowledgewithin decoding instruction
Right.
So an early word like CVC word,right, Pen Right, there's
(31:04):
multiple meanings of pen.
Right, there's pen whereanimals are, there's pen you
write with.
So there's ways to embed sortof multiple meaning and more
advanced vocabulary work withdecoding even simple word or CVC
words.
So I just want to make sure thatyou know, with this emphasis on
decoding words, I just want toalso emphasize that the meaning
(31:25):
of the words is important.
Melissa (31:27):
We usually separate that vocabulary and
comprehension like it's aseparate, totally separate
bucket of work.
But I mean it's very, verybasic comprehension but, it is
still comprehending that.
That one single word.
What does it mean?
Carolyn Strom (31:41):
Yes, we do want to map these words right Once
we've read them now, map them tomeaning and that really helps
secure the representation in ourbrain right.
So we don't want to ignore therole of meaning in word level.
Melissa (31:53):
All right, the last misconception.
Carolyn Strom (31:56):
Yeah.
So the third misconception thatI've observed is this idea kind
of related to the misconceptionone like that I'm learning to
read is natural, but it's thisidea that, like reading will
click right.
It just kind of like clickswithout practice, right, and so
a lot of people say, oh yeah,one day, you know, I really
think they'll just pick up theright book and be motivated and
(32:17):
and it'll click, it'll all cometogether, this whole complex
thing will come together andit's sort of like this click and
then like off, away you go, orsomething, and that really
undermines the role of practice.
So if we know that reading isnot natural, if we know it's a
mapping process and we need todo it to automaticity, right, so
we can free up our cognitiveenergy and our working memory
for meaning, then we know wehave to get to, we know we need
(32:41):
practice in order to get to aplace of mastery.
And to think or believe orconceive of reading is something
that's just like with the rightbook or the right teacher, it's
just going to click, all cometogether really doesn't give
proper sort of attention to theimportance of building skills
and I think that sometimes thatcomes from this idea that like
(33:02):
oh, to focus on skills implieslike you're doing some sort of
drilling kill approach, likeyou're drilling them and scaling
them and that's that's justkilling the motivation and the
meaning right in the joy.
And I prefer to think of it aslike drill skill and thrill is
the more that you embed practice.
I mean drilling is justpractice.
There's.
There's what's wrong withpractice, right, and so, like,
(33:25):
the more that you practice, themore skills you're going to get
and the more thrilling it'sgoing to be for you to do this
skill.
And we can see that if you'veever seen a five or six year old
learning to read, even if it'svery simple words, it is
thrilling, it is exciting.
You can see them feeling thatindependence, right, and a lot
of times the way you canpractice foundational skills
(33:48):
very skill really.
But a lot of the foundationalskills really lend themselves to
very playful, engaging, dare Isay, thrilling practices, right.
So there's a lot of funny makeawareness games where you play
with sounds that are really youknow can be very, very engaging
and fun, fun with kids.
One I do with preschoolers andwhat I've been doing with my
(34:08):
daughter is fiddle with themiddle right, where I say, okay,
we got to go put on our sacksright, or we got to go put on
our soups, right or no?
No, oh, you're right.
And she says socks, socks,right, and that's what I said.
We have to go put on our seats,right.
So I just keep changing thatvowel right, and it's just a
quick fiddle with the middlegame that you can play the kids
love and what it's doing istuning, tuning their ears into
(34:30):
these medial vowel sounds.
So that's just one smallexample right of how sort of we
can build routines in are theimportance of building routines
in because practice and routinesare so important?
Because reading to mass,becoming a skilled reader,
requires lots of practice, right, and if we just believe it's
(34:51):
going to click and it's notgoing to require the hours and
hours of practice and a lot ofkids are not going to get to
where they need to be, they'renot going to reach automaticity
because they're waiting for thisclick moment and it requires
practice and and a lot ofrepeated practice and
gamification of practice andengaging.
(35:12):
You know there's ways to like,like get those dopamine hits
while you're playing gamesrelated to building your, your
foundational skills.
Melissa (35:21):
Yeah, I love that you brought up like that.
This drill does get just aterrible connotation.
You know, like, oh, people justuse that word like, oh, you're
just drilling kids.
But I love that you brought upthat it just means practice and
we need it.
But then also it doesn't haveto just be boring, right that it
doesn't have to just beworksheets.
It doesn't, it shouldn't benecessary, especially for
(35:43):
younger kids.
No, no word games yeah we'relooking at wordal.
Carolyn Strom (35:47):
Do people still play wordal?
Lori (35:48):
Is it wordal really?
Carolyn Strom (35:49):
popular.
I mean people love wordal right, like they're playing with the
sequences of words right as kidsget older.
That's a great, it's a greatresource right Like just word
games and sound games it's.
It actually can be a very funand analytical process and you
know so.
And also, I also say one waythe best way to practice really
early phonemic awareness andletter recognition is is is
(36:13):
early handwriting right andexperimental spelling and
encouraging young children towrite using sounds.
And that's not drilling themright.
We're not having them copybooks right onto paper, we're
not drilling them in any way orform, but we're building in that
practice right, that practiceto build this circuit.
That doesn't come naturally,that we don't come wired with.
(36:34):
And one thing go back to UFly.
One thing I love about I mean Ilove so many things about UFly.
One of the things I love isthat they have the rolling reads
For every single skill.
They have these rolling readswhere you roll a dice, you read
a word, and I think theclassrooms where kids absolutely
love playing this and theycolor it, I mean they're not
bored, right.
And when I was working withdyslexic kids and who need lots
(36:58):
of practice at this, I mean theonly way to do the practice with
them was games that we're superengaging, right.
So it's practice.
We need practice, it's notgonna click.
Melissa (37:09):
Yeah, lori and I talk about this a lot that we send
kids to sports practices to dojust this.
Right, they do these drills.
And they love it becausethey're getting better at it and
they can see it.
I mean again, my child's onlyfour, but he does go to
basketball practice and he seesthat when he does this over and
over and over again he's gettingbetter and that is what's
(37:32):
motivating, is that he's likenow I'm making it in the hoop,
so I wanna keep doing it Exactlyexactly.
Carolyn Strom (37:38):
And when you start to learn it's the same
exact thing.
When you start to learn theinstrument you have to learn the
scales, right, like there'sthese just basic skills that we
do drill and we kind of wantthat in every other skill that
we practice, auto-motivated.
But somehow with reading thisnotion of having to drill it and
practice things, it's becomethis like drill and kill and
(37:58):
this awful sort of thing whenit's exactly what we need and
has to be refrained.
Melissa (38:03):
I will say when I was in first grade I remember doing
worksheets and so I can see howit could have gotten a bad rap
if that's all you're doing isworksheets.
Carolyn Strom (38:15):
Again, right, I totally agree with you.
But there's a certain amount ofthe day right devoted to this
stuff and it's like there arenot all worksheets are created
equal.
True to you Right, there can bea really good worksheet, which
is really just a very goodexercise, right, it can also be
(38:35):
a task on a tablet, right,they're just exercises.
Right, they're exercises.
But I agree we don't want tooverdo it with just passive,
busy work.
No one wants that, right.
We want engagement, right.
Without engagement I mean thisis something Stannis
Leicester-Hahn has talked aboutand proven a lot in his work
that, like we need theengagement, without the
(38:56):
engagement, we lose the brain,goes off track.
Like that engagement is soimportant.
So we need the drill inpractice and, yes, it needs to
be engaging and active.
Kids need to be activelyinvolved in it, not passive.
Right, drill doesn't have to bepassive.
Maybe that's the.
You know the way of framing it.
I frame it as skill and thrillinstead of drill and kill,
(39:18):
because I like a good rhyme.
But it really needs to bereframed.
Melissa (39:24):
Well, you've already given us several implications
here for teachers especially,but is there anything else you
want to share for what teacherscan be doing in the classroom
differently?
Carolyn Strom (39:38):
We've covered a lot of ground.
One area we haven't maybecovered as much is what happens
with the multilingual or thebilingual brain as it's learning
to read.
So I just want to add you know,what we know is that it's good,
it's a very good thing for usto engage right Our bilingual
brains.
(39:58):
We're all capable of learningmore than one language, and it
really has many benefits, right.
And we know that the importanceis the development of spoken
language, right.
So when we were talking aboutbuilding the circuit, you know
the reading circuit is built ontop of the spoken language
circuit, right.
So we have the spoken languagecircuit and the best thing we
(40:19):
can do early on, right, is buildour areas for spoken language,
because the reading circuit isliterally like built on top of
it.
And so building spoken language, building vocabulary, is so, so
important for all learners, butespecially for multilingual
learners, right, because thestrength in one spoken language
transfers to another and we justreally want to make that
(40:41):
circuit so strong and it'sfounded in spoken language.
And I think that that connectsto something I've seen in the
upper grades and middle gradesaround comprehension.
So, you know, I've seen thisidea from some people that, like
, comprehension is just aboutskills right, it's about finding
the main idea, it's aboutinferencing.
(41:02):
And we know, actually from alot of the cognitive science and
research on comprehension thatactually it's grounded in
knowledge, right, and conceptualknowledge.
And we really need to buildknowledge, to build
comprehension, and not justthink of it as just like a skill
activity.
And so I think that really tiesinto what I'm sort of saying
(41:24):
about multilingual learners andbilingual learners that we
really need to ground ourlessons not just in skills but
in knowledge, which inevitablyincludes vocabulary, and doing
it in all those structured,engaging ways.
Melissa (41:37):
Yeah, that's so helpful .
I'm really glad you broughtthat up, because at the
beginning we kind of saidreading is so different from
speaking, right, but they doreally tie together and it's
really important that they cometogether.
Carolyn Strom (41:52):
So important.
Yes, that's such a good point.
Like it's yeah, like readingdoes not develop like speaking,
but it's dependent on spokenlanguage.
Reading is absolutely dependenton our spoken language.
You can't read unless you havea spoken language base.
But totally, but at the sametime they don't develop in the
same way.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction.
Melissa (42:13):
And this knowledge building that you're bringing up
can actually start even throughjust spoken language, from when
they're really young.
Carolyn Strom (42:22):
Yes, yes, yes, and there's.
Kids get so engaged.
We all do, right, because we'repeople, that we're meaning
making people, but kids get soengaged in knowledge, right, so
engaged in learning about allthe different kinds of snakes or
where snakes live and whatsnakes eat, like there's,
there's knowledge is veryengaging and Anne helps us build
(42:44):
our conceptual knowledge in ourspoken language network.
So when I think, you know, whenpeople think of the science of
reading, it's not justfoundational skills, right, it's
the, it's the importance of howwe build comprehension and
textual understanding, and somuch of that comes from
knowledge building and buildingconcept knowledge.
Melissa (43:00):
Yeah, and it's.
It's kind of wild how muchyoung kids can take in, like I
said, my four year old.
Sometimes it's silly stuff,like Hot Wheels.
I mean he knows all these namesof all these Hot Wheels.
But then sometimes I'm likethinking you know, one of the
Hot Wheels is called MohawkWarrior, and now he knows what a
Mohawk is Like.
Carolyn Strom (43:19):
That's like I mean it's kind of silly but at
the same time like he's buildingsome of the knowledge there
about the world that he and awhole memory network.
You know he's really building.
Melissa (43:30):
I mean, he does some serious things too, not just Hot
Wheels, but that is his thingat the moment.
Carolyn Strom (43:35):
Yeah, is he classifying them?
Oh, I don't know.
That's the next step.
Melissa (43:39):
Thank you for that pointer.
You know, yes, grouping themtogether.
Carolyn Strom (43:44):
When kids are in that phase that it's like in the
collecting phase, right, Havinga lot of one thing, then
organizing it.
I mean not again, don't push it.
If your kid is like my daughter, who's like no, I will not be
organizing them any little minortask, extra task.
I know, but some kids do likesorting and organizing and it's
good practice.
Melissa (44:05):
Well, before we go, I just want to ask you.
You know this was a really bigtopic.
We just hit on somemisconceptions today.
I'm sure there's a million morethings we could have asked you
about the brain and how itlearns to read, but do you have
any suggestions for where peoplecould learn more?
Carolyn Strom (44:21):
Yeah, so I have a newsletter.
You can sign up for that on mywebsite it's just
carolinstromcom, or you canemail me at hello at
carolinstromcom.
I believe there's still aposter on the website of sort of
my conception of the brain.
I'm working on a longer pieceabout it, but if you're curious
(44:44):
in general about sort of more, Ireally recommend Stannis
Leicester-Hahn's work Reading inthe Brain.
He's an amazing writer, anamazing researcher and is really
the pioneer in the field, alongwith work of Marianne Wolfe I'm
sure people have talked abouther book on here before Prusa
and the Squid.
Sally Shewitz's OvercomingDyslexia Also a great and
(45:08):
accessible book about the brain.
All sort of talking about theconcepts we spoke about today.
Great.
Melissa (45:16):
Well, thank you for those recommendations and thank
you so much for sharing all ofthis wonderful information with
us today.
We're so thankful.
Thank you for hosting thisgreat podcast.
Lori (45:28):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy Lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
Melissa (45:37):
And to keep learning together.
Join the Melissa and Lori LoveLiteracy Podcast Facebook group
and be sure to follow us onInstagram and Twitter.
Lori (45:46):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (45:56):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (46:08):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
Join us as we focus on learningabout dyslexia this October.
Today we'll be talking toCarolyn Strom about three
misconceptions about how thebrain learns how to read.
Misconception one reading istaught, not caught.
Misconception two we map words.
(00:22):
We don't memorize them.
Misconception three the ideathat reading clicks without
practice.
What's wrong with practice?
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:40):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too.
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, Lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:57):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Melissa and LoriLove Literacy.
Today we're so excited becausewe are here with a guest who's
going to tell us about threemisconceptions about how the
brain learns how to read.
Yep.
So we have.
Melissa (01:09):
Carolyn Strom here today, who is a professor in the
Education Department at NewYork University and she's an
early literacy expert who Iactually got to see present at
the reading league last year atthe conference and she made this
really tough topic really easyto understand.
So I'm very excited to talk toher today.
So welcome Carolyn, thank you,thanks for having me All right
(01:32):
so we wanted to jump right inbecause, just like us, you were
a teacher, and not all the timewhen you have a professor of
education, where theynecessarily a teacher in the
classroom.
So we're really curious abouthow you went from a classroom
teacher to becoming interestedin studying, so specifically how
the brain learns to read.
Carolyn Strom (01:52):
So, yeah, I started my career as a first
grade teacher in Compton,California, and anyone that's
taught first grade knows thatreading is nothing Right.
We really want kids reading bythe end of first grade and I
really fell in love with theprocess of teaching reading.
I was lucky enough to have anexplicit phonics program open
court at the time.
California had this mandatearound open court and my kids
(02:15):
were reading and it is a reallyamazing experience being a first
grade teacher, having kidstransform into readers, so I
fell in love with it.
That's really what kept me inthe classroom for about 10 years
and during that time obviouslywent to tons of PD and tons of
and I had a master's degree.
But I realized that afterseveral years of teaching I
(02:38):
didn't really understand whatwas going on in the brain, even
though I was teaching kids toread right, I was doing all the
things and my kids were readersand I felt like a strong teacher
.
But when a mom actually said tome I see my kid working so hard
to sound out a word, what isgoing on?
I see him staring at thesewords, sounding them out what's
happening in the brain, and Icouldn't tell the parent.
(02:58):
I didn't know, even though Iknew how to teach reading, I
would have been making it up.
I realized that after all thesehours of PD and a master's
degree, I knew how to teachreading well, but I didn't
really know what was going oninside the brain and that just
didn't feel right to me in termsof a professional base, and
(03:19):
that's why I decided to go tograduate school and get a PhD
and really understand theresearch about how kids learn to
read.
Melissa (03:27):
But probably true for most teachers right that they
know the moves to make in theclassroom, but I couldn't have
said what was happening in thebrains of my students when they
were learning for sure.
Carolyn Strom (03:38):
Right, and when you begin to understand really
how something works, like how asystem works, then you can
figure out what's not working.
You know the mechanisms and Ididn't really feel like I
understood the mechanisms andthat even became clear when I
was working a lot with dyslexicstudents right after during my
graduate work and I was like Iwouldn't have been able.
(03:58):
I don't feel like I would havebeen able to do that if I didn't
have a deeper understanding ofhow the brain learns to read and
why the sound processing is soimportant.
So there's a lot there.
It's so rich, and I think thatsometimes the neuroscience
especially is really dense andwritten for people with a
background in neuroscience.
And I don't believe thateducators and families
necessarily need a deepbackground in neuroscience.
(04:20):
They just need to understandthe basics of what's going on in
the brain, in the same way thatwe would want our physical
therapist to understand anatomy.
Right, it's just understandinga little bit of what's going on
inside.
That really intrigued me.
It still intrigues me to thisday.
Lori (04:37):
Yeah, I think, as we dive into what's going on inside the
brain, you highlighted in ourpre-call three misconceptions
about how the brain learns toread and I think you just put
them so clearly that you'reright.
Like, even though I don't havea background in neuroscience, I
can still understand what you'resharing.
Is there a way to kind of juststart off with the first
(05:02):
misconception and then we willask you questions that pop up
along the way?
Carolyn Strom (05:06):
But maybe if you could start with that first
misconception and just kind ofexplain to us what are some
misconceptions about how thebrain learns how to read, so
I've encountered thesemisconceptions over the last
five or 10 years sort of workingwith teachers and working in
schools around change and earlyliteracy, and realized that a
lot of the families andeducators had these
misconceptions and that was kindof where some of the misguided
(05:29):
practices were coming from.
Right, it's that they heldthese sort of misconceptions and
the first one I'm sure we'reall very familiar with is that
reading is natural.
So there's this misconceptionout there that, just like kids
naturally learn to speak right,If we immerse them in spoken
language, then if we immersethem in print, we immerse them
with books, then they'll learnto read right.
(05:50):
And that's very prevalent.
You know, don't push the kidright, they don't necessarily
need instruction, it will comenaturally.
And that's just simply not true.
Learning to speak is verydifferent than learning to read,
and we can see all over theworld millions of people develop
spoken language and millions ofpeople don't learn to read
right, Because it doesn't justhappen spontaneously.
(06:12):
It requires schooling, itrequires instruction and it's a
code.
It's an invented code.
That's what the alphabet is,right, it's these squiggles,
lines and dots that representsounds that we came up with only
five or 6,000 years ago.
Right, it's a very newinvention.
So there's just no way thatit's something that occurs
(06:33):
naturally.
But what that ends up leading to, if we believe, right, that
reading is natural and it occursjust like spoken language, and
all we need to do is submergekids in print, then we're really
sort of turning away from theimportance of explicit
instruction, right.
So that's sort of the outcomeof this misconception is that we
(06:54):
say, oh, it'll occur naturally,let's wait, right.
Sometimes it's called the waitand see approach or the
maturation perspective.
They'll just evolve into that.
But actually, like, that justtakes away from how important
explicit instruction is.
Right, I often say that readingis taught, not caught.
For some kids it does, it feelslike it's caught, right, but
(07:15):
really for most kids it must betaught and that's if we believe
it's natural, then we're notgonna believe that right, Like
we'll just believe it will becaught and we don't have the
luxury to think like that.
Melissa (07:28):
That's such an important point that it does
actually kind of happen likethat for some kids, some
students, but that's not thenorm.
Carolyn Strom (07:37):
Right and for the kids that it happens with, it
may be that they got a lotinformally early on with their
phonemic awareness, for example,right and or their early
writing Like they may have had.
It may seem like it just poppedon right or clicked, but in
fact there's other things thatinputs they got that we can't
(07:59):
see.
Melissa (08:00):
Yeah, I just saw an anecdotal story somewhere,
probably on social media, wheresomeone said something like that
Like, yeah, their second childjust kind of picked it up.
They don't know where it camefrom, but it was actually
because they watched a lot ofwhat was going on with their
older, their older child, likebringing home homework and
working with them on things, andthey just saw some of those
things happening that theypicked up on those.
(08:20):
Yeah, it wasn't just a naturalthing, it actually still had the
input, right?
Carolyn Strom (08:25):
From somewhere else.
Right, exactly.
But I think it's a romantic.
It's a romantic version ofliteracy that like surround kids
with books and surround kidswith conversation and they'll
fall in love with this processand they'll naturally learn to
read.
And that's just not.
It's just not true.
We're not wired for this.
It's not going to work likethat and it requires structure.
Lori (08:48):
What would you say to parents or teachers who do say
that, like, oh, I just turnedaround and you know my child can
read.
Or oh, my child reallystruggled last year but they
stepped into a classroom thisyear and it seems like they've
really got it?
Carolyn Strom (09:04):
I mean, then I just say more power to you, like
that it's awesome, your kid isreading, your kid is not my
concern, honestly, like I'mconcerned about the kids who are
not reading and who everyone'ssaying, oh, they'll just get it,
but I do say, yeah, it may.
I say what I said before, likeit may seem like that, right,
but it's likely that there wasactually a lot of phonemic
awareness built in somewhere intheir life.
Right, and it's.
(09:25):
There are some kids thatprocess of building a circuit is
easier, right, but for mostkids we need to teach it and it
really doesn't hurt anyone toactually be explicitly teaching
and monitoring progress, right,and it doing sort of very
specific moves that are going topromote building a reading
circuit, because that is whatwe're doing, right, we're
building a circuit.
(09:46):
It's not we don't come with acenter for reading, so we ought
to build it.
Melissa (09:51):
Yeah, do you want to dig in a little bit more there?
I mean, you've alreadymentioned several things, but we
wanted to ask you about whatare the implications here for
teachers and for parents.
Like, what do we need to do ifnot just parents hear that all
the time?
Just immerse them and read tothem.
It'll be great, you know, butwhat does this really mean for
parents, and especially ourteachers of our youngest
students?
Carolyn Strom (10:12):
So of course, like yes, we want books in the
home, we want access tolibraries.
You do want tons of books,right, and texts, and you do
want to be reading to your kidsand you also want to be pointing
out environmental print, right,you also want to sort of make
kids not only aware of books butof print in the environment.
Stop signs, any kind of signs,the signs at your school logos,
(10:34):
cereal boxes, right.
Pointing out the print in theworld is definitely important,
right.
All of that are, I guess, quoteunquote natural right, using
what is in your environment, andwe want to have a print rich
environment, of course.
But also realize that we needto be explicit, right, and make
sure that kids are involved insome kind of instructional
program that has a scope andsequence, for example, right,
(10:55):
that doesn't just assume kidsare going to pick up the letter
patterns in our environment,right, because it's not
intuitive and it's not natural.
So when you're thinking aboutthe instruction your kid is
receiving, is there a scope andsequence?
Right.
Is there a plan for progressmonitoring?
Is there a plan for practice?
Right.
Are there decodable texts?
I mean I'm getting like superin the weeds here, right, but
(11:18):
like, these are like the Okay,great, great, so you want it.
You want there to be thesestructures, these specific
structures involved, right, andI'm not saying that at three
years old, you're doing letters,sound flashcards, right, that's
not what I'm saying, right, butyou're following some kind of
scope and sequence around eitherphonemic awareness, right, and
(11:40):
then awareness of sounds andthen moving into letter sounds.
There's a plan for writing,right?
There's a plan for teachinghandwriting.
There's a plan for how wehandle irregular words, right.
So, if we take thismisconception that reading is
natural and we accept no, it'snot, it needs to be taught, well
, then there's, like all scienceof teaching reading, right, and
(12:00):
that's the biggest implicationof accepting that we're not
wired for reading and it's notnatural.
Melissa (12:07):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I think I'm hearing
both from like.
If I'm a teacher at a school,these are things I should be
looking for in curriculum in mytraining.
I should be looking for to havethese and, if not, advocating
for them and same with parents,right as you're either choosing
a school or signing up for aschool, like looking and asking
for what is that?
(12:27):
What is the structure?
How's literacy being taught?
What's the scope and sequence?
Those seem like the rightquestions to be asking.
Carolyn Strom (12:34):
Yes, and as you're speaking, yes, exactly.
And as you're speaking, I'mjust like wait, there's a caveat
though.
Right, because we're talkingabout early childhood, we get
into talking about earlychildhood, right Three to five
year olds, three to six yearolds.
So there is also the.
We're not put.
You don't necessarily need topush right If a kid three years
(12:54):
old.
Right For a kid to be readingand writing.
Some kids with certain inputsare going to pick it up at that
age, but it is okay to be.
We want to be developmentallyappropriate, right?
So the letters and sounds andstructures there should be for
three and four year olds, right?
So that's going to be differentthan for five and six year olds
.
Does that make sense?
Right, it's going to be more,even more playful and more song
(13:17):
based and much more phonemicawareness.
So when I say prescribed andscope and sequence, I really
mean just like a plan, right, aplan that's developmentally
appropriate, but that there is aplan, not just a spontaneous.
We're going to surround themwith print and they're going to
begin to pick up how print andsounds work together.
Melissa (13:37):
That's so funny.
I have a four year old who juststarted in pre-K and they sent
home a paper that said what areyour goals for your student this
year?
And I started to go kind of.
I was like ready to write downall the things of all the letter
sounds and this and that.
And then at the end I was likeI'll still like have fun.
I want him to have fun and he'sa kid still.
Carolyn Strom (13:56):
And I have a four year old who just started
preschool too.
That's so funny and I've yes,I'm totally with you.
I'm totally with you.
You know, and yeah, exactly,you do want them to have fun.
You want them to have 20 to 30minutes of symphonemic awareness
and letters out, you know, youwant, you want them to have some
of that, but really you do wantthem to have fun and it is fun.
I mean, we'll get into that.
(14:16):
But phonics and phonemicawareness is fun.
You know, there's this kind oflike dichotomy out there that
like, oh, phonics is the boringstuff, it's the mechanics.
You got to just get through itto get to the meaning.
And like, teaching phonics isvery fun, right, you can make it
super engaging, it's so fun.
Kids get so excited, right,when they learn all the tricks
of our language and they learnthe way it works.
(14:38):
And it's a pattern, it's a code, so it can be fun.
It is fun, right.
So, and that sort of connectsus to some of the other
misconceptions.
Lori (14:45):
But yeah, I mean I just.
I have one last question aboutit, though.
If I'm a parent or a teacherlistening and I am hearing you
say explicit instruction with asystematic scope and sequence,
but I'm not sure what that means, do you have any
recommendations?
Because I think there's reallygood stuff out there and there's
not so great stuff.
(15:06):
So, like I can start with anexample.
So I've been seeing all thehubbub about you fly, so I
ordered myself a UFly manual,right, and it is very clear in
the if you're reading this UFlymanual exactly what the scope
and sequence is.
And then I'm also going to saythat I live in a district that
(15:26):
has Readers Writers Workshop.
They have the phonics.
It's very clear that thatphonics program was input like
kind of like backdated right, soit was like so okay.
So if I'm in a district and I'mseeing like a systematic scope
and sequence, I'm looking forspecific things, and if I'm a
parent, I probably have zeroidea, right, who's what I'm
(15:48):
looking for?
Carolyn Strom (15:49):
I mean, I'm glad you mentioned UFly.
I mean UFly.
So for any school that I workwith pretty much you know, we
either made the transition toUFly or are making the
transition to UFly away fromsome other phonics programs,
because UFly is so efficient.
It's efficient and it's very,it's very much like you can use
(16:09):
it tomorrow, right, it's, andthere's a tons of support, very
easy and games, and I mean areally great social media
community.
The Facebook UFly group iswonderful and so, and UFly is
basically free.
You just pay for the teacher'sguide, right?
So it's such a great programand I think it's a great model,
(16:29):
right?
So when I'm thinking about, like, the one of the things I love
about UFly is like it's 128lessons, right?
So no matter what grade, it'salways this.
That is like an amazing scopeand sequence.
We really know how it'sorganized, right, and you don't
cover all 128 in any grade,right, there are some you skip.
There's an order for each grade, but that's what we mean by a
scope and sequence we know thescope of what's being covered
(16:52):
and we know the sequence.
Melissa (16:54):
All right, Carolyn, can you tell us about the second
misconception?
Carolyn Strom (16:58):
Yeah.
So the second misconceptionthat you know I've experienced
in my work with educators andfamilies is around this idea of
how we actually learn to readwords from memory, right, how we
remember words, how we storethem.
And there's this misconceptionsometimes that we memorize words
right, especially irregularwords.
(17:19):
So a word like laugh, right,l-a-u-g-h.
But you know, you might tell achild like, oh, you just have to
memorize it, english is sotricky, english is so irregular.
There's this like memorizationperspective out there which
leads to looking at words asholes, that we memorize words as
holes somehow.
That's a flash card as flashcards, yep, and the word shape
(17:42):
method, right, and that's just areal misconception about how
learning happens, how we storewords in memory.
It really happens throughmapping, not memorizing, and by
mapping I mean like we'remapping the specific letters to
sounds or letter patterns tosounds, right, that's what we
see.
We see that in all of the brainresearch especially right.
(18:04):
We've talked about how we haveno center for reading, we have
to build the circuit.
And if we look at how we buildthe circuit, what we're doing is
we're connecting the visualform of the word what you see
with your vision, perception,right, with your vision, to
sounds and then to meaning.
So there's three primary areasof the brain.
Lots of other areas of thebrain that are involved, but
these three primary areas thatmake up, like, the neural form
(18:25):
of a word, right, and that'swhat we mean by mapping.
We're mapping a word'spronunciation right To the way
that the letters are, to itsletters and to its meaning.
Melissa (18:34):
So that's when you say mapping real quick, that's
literally what's happening inour brain, like those things
that you're talking about.
Carolyn Strom (18:41):
You're connecting , like the.
There are neurons right thatspecialize for vision to
recognize faces and objects,right, and so we're re-tuning
those neurons right so that theyrecognize letters of a specific
script and then can map thoseletters to a sound, right.
That's the first level ofmapping.
You have to map these letters,these squiggles, lines and dots,
(19:03):
right.
They don't mean anything,they're complete abstractions,
they don't mean anything.
We have to map them to sounds,right.
And once we do that, we map,let's say, the S and the H right
to shh and the I to N and putin rep shh.
If you've mapped the letters andsounds.
But now you need to map thatpronunciation and that letter
sequence to something, to a ship, right to what that means.
(19:26):
And now those three, thosethree representations, if you
will, are connected right, thewhat a ship is, how a ship
sounds and then what the letterslook like in sequence.
And the more you do that rightwe say the neurons that fire
together, wire together, themore that you connect those, map
or connect those threerepresentations, the more that
(19:47):
you're, you're, you're beginningto store, because it creates
like a little neural address Forthat word, kind of in what's
eventually stonis-less-to-hancalls the letter box is is an
area that we develop.
Experienced expert readersdevelop that is really
specialized for recognizingwords and letter sequences
within words.
But the first level of mappingis letter to sound or symbol to
(20:09):
sound right, and then we map theletter sequences to the
pronunciation and the meaning.
Melissa (20:15):
I'm curious about because Because the goal of that
is that if that becomes soautomatic, right that you see
ship and it's like you don'teven have to think about it.
You know the sounds, you knowthe word, you know everything
very quickly.
Yeah, that where themisconception comes from about
memorizing that it feels likewe're memorizing it because it
eventually becomes so quick.
Carolyn Strom (20:34):
I Think that I think that's right.
I think I'm not sure exactlywhere the misconception comes
from, but People have suggestedthat it comes from this idea of
like the experts blind spot.
Right, so all of us are expertreaders.
We read with automaticity, wedon't think about it, all of our
cognitive energy can go towardsmeaning, right, it's something
we're doing.
And so, for expert readers, weforget actually how, what our
(20:56):
brain was like before we couldread, and it does feel to us
that we're just, you know,memorizing the letter sequence.
But there's tons of studies toprove that that's not what we're
doing.
Although it was, it was anearly misconception and early
reading research as well.
But that's not what we're doing.
We, we map right.
Even even when part of a wordis irregular, we're still
(21:17):
mapping it.
Lori (21:19):
Yeah, it's like taking apart something that you can do
so fluently to to almost liketry to break it down to Be less
fluent so that you could figureout how you got so flu.
It's like really an impossibletask for an expert to do.
Carolyn Strom (21:33):
It's really bad and people have written about it
with musicians, right,professional musicians who, like
, don't remember what it waslike before they could do.
They can't describe what theydo because it's so in their body
and it's so automatic, right,and exactly that's that's for
for readers.
We have to, like we, we have toimagine what it's like to not
have this skill right in orderto understand how difficult it
(21:53):
is.
But the cool thing about ourbrains is that we have this
capacity for automaticity.
That's what I think is soamazing, right, like if you look
at a script that you've neverseen before, like I do this with
Korean, right, I don't, I can'tread Korean, but if I look at
something in Korean, it trulyjust looks like lines, just
squiggles and lines to me, right, and it's amazing to me that,
(22:14):
you know, I could theoreticallylearn to read that, so that it
would add it to it, to a placeof automaticity.
It's incredible.
So we have this capacity forautomaticity.
So then it feels like we'vejust memorized everything, but
we haven't.
We've mapped it right, and Ithink the power of understanding
the mapping, especially at the,at the letter level, is, like,
if you understand what our brainhas to do, right, in order to
(22:37):
recognize letters.
It's pretty phenomenal becausewe're using an area of our brain
I think I mentioned before thatthat is specialized for really
recognizing faces and objects,right, not letters, and so
that's why we see things likemirror invariance, so, which is
when kids confuse B and D and Pand Q, right, that's evidence of
the fact that they're usingthis part of their brain that
(22:58):
recognizes objects, and whenobjects are flipped, they're
still the same object, right.
So we're reusing this part ofour brain that actually sees
mirror images the same Right andwe have to unlearn that in
order to really acquire analphabetic literacy.
Lori (23:15):
That's so neat.
So what?
Like?
What could parents and teachersdo?
Like, what are the implicationsfor parents and teachers
listening in regards tomemorizing versus mapping
misconception?
Carolyn Strom (23:26):
So much, okay.
So first, when we think aboutTeaching kids letters and sounds
, right, we want to make itmeaningful.
And you know, if you think of aW, there's no reason why a W
like the zigzag W would saywhoop would make the whoop sound
.
There's no reason why when wewant to write whoop water, we
would spell it with a W, becausethe W starts with D, right, it
(23:50):
doesn't you, right?
So there's no correlation,right, and?
But when you use a methodcalled embedded pictures or
embedded picture mnemonics andmaybe you turn the W into a worm
and A kid, and the W is in theshape of a worm and a worm is in
the shape of a W, I don't know,it's visual, so I don't know if
I'm making any sense.
But, um, then a kid looks atthat, right, and they think what
(24:14):
worm, and so they associate theshape of the W With a, what
worm, and that's an embedded,embedded alphabet method.
That is really, reallybeneficial for young children,
even more beneficial if thecharacters are engaging, right,
and there's songs to go alongwith it and and rhymes and
(24:35):
handwriting.
Yeah, and the program that Ilike to use with preschools is
called letter land.
We've used that with a bunch ofpreschools.
It's one embedded picturemnemonic method, but there are
others.
I know that Spellphabet has oneonline I think they're based
out of Australia and it's justcards that have embedded
(24:56):
embedded pictures in thealphabet, and so I guess my main
takeaway here, and why I spenta little time on it, is that's
what makes sort of learning thealphabet can be fun, I Right.
So we want to make this sort ofabstract process it's called
paired associate learning, whenyou're looking at a symbol and
connecting it with a sound,right?
We want to make that meaningfuland fun, and one way to do that
(25:17):
is by embedded embeddingpictures into the alphabetic
symbols.
Melissa (25:21):
I was just going to say .
I see a lot of flags on those,so I think sometimes you have to
be a cautious consumer, rightOf like.
I've seen one, even where I'mnot even making this up, that
the K example was a knight likeK-N-I-G-H-T and I was like that
is the worst example.
There is not even a K sound inthere at all.
(25:43):
So, yeah, they're not all thatbad, but I know that some of
them do have some Right.
Right, Of course of course, justmake sure they're good ones,
and so letterland is one thatthere's.
Carolyn Strom (25:53):
Yes, there's a bunch of research around
letterland, which is why that'sthe one I always recommend.
So, yeah, definitely aconscious consumer.
And just because a letter isnext to an object does not make
it embedded right, it actuallyhas to be embedded in the
letter's shape if that makessense.
And yeah, so the other thing Iwanted to say about mapping, not
(26:17):
memorizing the implication ofunderstanding that we're not
memorizing, we're mapping, isreally for spelling.
So with spelling, the only wayto spell right is sequentially
right, take left or right,taking it sound by sound.
That really helps set up themapping in our brain.
And so over time, yes, it'sgoing to come automatic right.
(26:37):
Your hand or your fingers onthe keyboard are going to become
automatic with that right.
But if we understand that we'renot actually just like
memorizing the spellings ofthese strings, we're initially
mapping them all to sounds, andthat mapping them to sounds
really helps us set up thoseletter sequences in our brain,
then we'll, you know, I thinkpeople will pay more attention.
(27:00):
I'm hoping people will pay moreattention to the role of
dictation and the role ofhandwriting, because we know
that sort of the motor area ofour brain.
I call it the handwriting hub,but the motor area of our brain.
When we involve that area ofour brain in learning to read
right, it really helps build thecircuit more effectively.
Melissa (27:20):
I see this question a lot too.
That comes up where someonewill say their student or their
child you know they can readright, they seem like they're
reading really well, they'redecoding words, but then their
spelling is really not great andthe answer I always see which
you can correct me if I'm wrongis like well, they've memorized
words.
Then and that's like I mean,okay for right now, but that's
(27:44):
going to be a problem in thelong run.
Carolyn Strom (27:46):
Exactly, and they must have very.
They have a very good visualmemory, right.
Not all kids have that kind ofvisual memory.
If they, sorry, they must nothave very good visual memory,
right?
Students who seem to pick upspelling, like you said, I think
later they have a strong visualmemory.
But some kids don't right, andthey really need to learn those,
those mappings, reallysystematically.
So and I often say you know alot.
(28:07):
So there are some people thatsay, oh, my kid can read, they
don't need kind of an explicitphonics.
But first of all, it's usuallyonly 20, 30 minutes a day, it's
not like the whole day.
And second of all, it reallyhelps them develop spelling
pattern, like correct spelling,so important, so important.
And we should be carefulbecause you know there's a
there's a different kind ofcontinuum between spelling
(28:30):
mastery of decodable words andspelling mastery of irregular
words.
Right, it can take some kidsvery long way past first grade,
right, to remember the sequenceand map sort of irregular words
like laugh or through THROUGH,right.
But they will be able torecognize when they see them.
They'll be able to read thembut not spell them.
(28:50):
But with decodable words, right, that are multi-syllabic, like
napkin, right, we can masterthat much earlier than we can
master a longer irregular wordfor spelling.
Lori (29:00):
Carolyn, if, like what you just said, the kids might be
able to read it but not spell itas easily, for example the word
THROUGH like an irregular word,can you say more about that,
like why that is, and, asteachers or parents, is there
anything we can do to help?
Carolyn Strom (29:15):
Yeah, so you know .
The research answer would bewell, the representation is not
fully established right in theircircuit, right, so they can
recognize it right and they canratchet to pronunciation and
maybe they know the meaningright.
But until you can like reallyspell the word and you've
internalized the lettersequences and really tied these
(29:37):
three representations togetheralong with your motor memory, it
hasn't been fully establishedright.
And I think it probably goesback to the fact that
recognition is much easier thanproduction, right?
So in the same way that, likereceptive language, it develops
faster than expressive language,right, Reception and sort of
(30:00):
recognition of a word is mucheasier for, like your memory,
than production and actuallycreating the letter string.
But I don't think there's aname for that phenomenon.
When they can read it and notspell it, I think it's like the
representation isn't fullysecure.
Melissa (30:18):
All right, carolyn.
Is there anything else you wantto tell us about the second
misconception before we move tothe last one?
Carolyn Strom (30:24):
Yeah, I think the one thing I would just add on
this idea about we map words, wedon't memorize them right is I
want to emphasize that we'rereally mapping the how, like
letter, right.
Letter and letter strings tothe sounds and to meaning, right
.
So when we're teaching earlyword reading and decoding, it's
also important to talk aboutthat meaning of the word, right.
(30:44):
Decoding isn't just mapping,like blending sounds together
right, it is attaching tomeaning.
So there's a place, a veryimportant place, for vocabulary
development and word knowledgewithin decoding instruction
Right.
So an early word like CVC word,right, Pen Right, there's
(31:04):
multiple meanings of pen.
Right, there's pen whereanimals are, there's pen you
write with.
So there's ways to embed sortof multiple meaning and more
advanced vocabulary work withdecoding even simple word or CVC
words.
So I just want to make sure thatyou know, with this emphasis on
decoding words, I just want toalso emphasize that the meaning
(31:25):
of the words is important.
Melissa (31:27):
We usually separate that vocabulary and
comprehension like it's aseparate, totally separate
bucket of work.
But I mean it's very, verybasic comprehension but, it is
still comprehending that.
That one single word.
What does it mean?
Carolyn Strom (31:41):
Yes, we do want to map these words right Once
we've read them now, map them tomeaning and that really helps
secure the representation in ourbrain right.
So we don't want to ignore therole of meaning in word level.
Melissa (31:53):
All right, the last misconception.
Carolyn Strom (31:56):
Yeah.
So the third misconception thatI've observed is this idea kind
of related to the misconceptionone like that I'm learning to
read is natural, but it's thisidea that, like reading will
click right.
It just kind of like clickswithout practice, right, and so
a lot of people say, oh yeah,one day, you know, I really
think they'll just pick up theright book and be motivated and
(32:17):
and it'll click, it'll all cometogether, this whole complex
thing will come together andit's sort of like this click and
then like off, away you go, orsomething, and that really
undermines the role of practice.
So if we know that reading isnot natural, if we know it's a
mapping process and we need todo it to automaticity, right, so
we can free up our cognitiveenergy and our working memory
for meaning, then we know wehave to get to, we know we need
(32:41):
practice in order to get to aplace of mastery.
And to think or believe orconceive of reading is something
that's just like with the rightbook or the right teacher, it's
just going to click, all cometogether really doesn't give
proper sort of attention to theimportance of building skills
and I think that sometimes thatcomes from this idea that like
(33:02):
oh, to focus on skills implieslike you're doing some sort of
drilling kill approach, likeyou're drilling them and scaling
them and that's that's justkilling the motivation and the
meaning right in the joy.
And I prefer to think of it aslike drill skill and thrill is
the more that you embed practice.
I mean drilling is justpractice.
There's.
There's what's wrong withpractice, right, and so, like,
(33:25):
the more that you practice, themore skills you're going to get
and the more thrilling it'sgoing to be for you to do this
skill.
And we can see that if you'veever seen a five or six year old
learning to read, even if it'svery simple words, it is
thrilling, it is exciting.
You can see them feeling thatindependence, right, and a lot
of times the way you canpractice foundational skills
(33:48):
very skill really.
But a lot of the foundationalskills really lend themselves to
very playful, engaging, dare Isay, thrilling practices, right.
So there's a lot of funny makeawareness games where you play
with sounds that are really youknow can be very, very engaging
and fun, fun with kids.
One I do with preschoolers andwhat I've been doing with my
(34:08):
daughter is fiddle with themiddle right, where I say, okay,
we got to go put on our sacksright, or we got to go put on
our soups, right or no?
No, oh, you're right.
And she says socks, socks,right, and that's what I said.
We have to go put on our seats,right.
So I just keep changing thatvowel right, and it's just a
quick fiddle with the middlegame that you can play the kids
love and what it's doing istuning, tuning their ears into
(34:30):
these medial vowel sounds.
So that's just one smallexample right of how sort of we
can build routines in are theimportance of building routines
in because practice and routinesare so important?
Because reading to mass,becoming a skilled reader,
requires lots of practice, right, and if we just believe it's
(34:51):
going to click and it's notgoing to require the hours and
hours of practice and a lot ofkids are not going to get to
where they need to be, they'renot going to reach automaticity
because they're waiting for thisclick moment and it requires
practice and and a lot ofrepeated practice and
gamification of practice andengaging.
(35:12):
You know there's ways to like,like get those dopamine hits
while you're playing gamesrelated to building your, your
foundational skills.
Melissa (35:21):
Yeah, I love that you brought up like that.
This drill does get just aterrible connotation.
You know, like, oh, people justuse that word like, oh, you're
just drilling kids.
But I love that you brought upthat it just means practice and
we need it.
But then also it doesn't haveto just be boring, right that it
doesn't have to just beworksheets.
It doesn't, it shouldn't benecessary, especially for
(35:43):
younger kids.
No, no word games yeah we'relooking at wordal.
Carolyn Strom (35:47):
Do people still play wordal?
Lori (35:48):
Is it wordal really?
Carolyn Strom (35:49):
popular.
I mean people love wordal right, like they're playing with the
sequences of words right as kidsget older.
That's a great, it's a greatresource right Like just word
games and sound games it's.
It actually can be a very funand analytical process and you
know so.
And also, I also say one waythe best way to practice really
early phonemic awareness andletter recognition is is is
(36:13):
early handwriting right andexperimental spelling and
encouraging young children towrite using sounds.
And that's not drilling themright.
We're not having them copybooks right onto paper, we're
not drilling them in any way orform, but we're building in that
practice right, that practiceto build this circuit.
That doesn't come naturally,that we don't come wired with.
(36:34):
And one thing go back to UFly.
One thing I love about I mean Ilove so many things about UFly.
One of the things I love isthat they have the rolling reads
For every single skill.
They have these rolling readswhere you roll a dice, you read
a word, and I think theclassrooms where kids absolutely
love playing this and theycolor it, I mean they're not
bored, right.
And when I was working withdyslexic kids and who need lots
(36:58):
of practice at this, I mean theonly way to do the practice with
them was games that we're superengaging, right.
So it's practice.
We need practice, it's notgonna click.
Melissa (37:09):
Yeah, lori and I talk about this a lot that we send
kids to sports practices to dojust this.
Right, they do these drills.
And they love it becausethey're getting better at it and
they can see it.
I mean again, my child's onlyfour, but he does go to
basketball practice and he seesthat when he does this over and
over and over again he's gettingbetter and that is what's
(37:32):
motivating, is that he's likenow I'm making it in the hoop,
so I wanna keep doing it Exactlyexactly.
Carolyn Strom (37:38):
And when you start to learn it's the same
exact thing.
When you start to learn theinstrument you have to learn the
scales, right, like there'sthese just basic skills that we
do drill and we kind of wantthat in every other skill that
we practice, auto-motivated.
But somehow with reading thisnotion of having to drill it and
practice things, it's becomethis like drill and kill and
(37:58):
this awful sort of thing whenit's exactly what we need and
has to be refrained.
Melissa (38:03):
I will say when I was in first grade I remember doing
worksheets and so I can see howit could have gotten a bad rap
if that's all you're doing isworksheets.
Carolyn Strom (38:15):
Again, right, I totally agree with you.
But there's a certain amount ofthe day right devoted to this
stuff and it's like there arenot all worksheets are created
equal.
True to you Right, there can bea really good worksheet, which
is really just a very goodexercise, right, it can also be
(38:35):
a task on a tablet, right,they're just exercises.
Right, they're exercises.
But I agree we don't want tooverdo it with just passive,
busy work.
No one wants that, right.
We want engagement, right.
Without engagement I mean thisis something Stannis
Leicester-Hahn has talked aboutand proven a lot in his work
that, like we need theengagement, without the
(38:56):
engagement, we lose the brain,goes off track.
Like that engagement is soimportant.
So we need the drill inpractice and, yes, it needs to
be engaging and active.
Kids need to be activelyinvolved in it, not passive.
Right, drill doesn't have to bepassive.
Maybe that's the.
You know the way of framing it.
I frame it as skill and thrillinstead of drill and kill,
(39:18):
because I like a good rhyme.
But it really needs to bereframed.
Melissa (39:24):
Well, you've already given us several implications
here for teachers especially,but is there anything else you
want to share for what teacherscan be doing in the classroom
differently?
Carolyn Strom (39:38):
We've covered a lot of ground.
One area we haven't maybecovered as much is what happens
with the multilingual or thebilingual brain as it's learning
to read.
So I just want to add you know,what we know is that it's good,
it's a very good thing for usto engage right Our bilingual
brains.
(39:58):
We're all capable of learningmore than one language, and it
really has many benefits, right.
And we know that the importanceis the development of spoken
language, right.
So when we were talking aboutbuilding the circuit, you know
the reading circuit is built ontop of the spoken language
circuit, right.
So we have the spoken languagecircuit and the best thing we
(40:19):
can do early on, right, is buildour areas for spoken language,
because the reading circuit isliterally like built on top of
it.
And so building spoken language, building vocabulary, is so, so
important for all learners, butespecially for multilingual
learners, right, because thestrength in one spoken language
transfers to another and we justreally want to make that
(40:41):
circuit so strong and it'sfounded in spoken language.
And I think that that connectsto something I've seen in the
upper grades and middle gradesaround comprehension.
So, you know, I've seen thisidea from some people that, like
, comprehension is just aboutskills right, it's about finding
the main idea, it's aboutinferencing.
(41:02):
And we know, actually from alot of the cognitive science and
research on comprehension thatactually it's grounded in
knowledge, right, and conceptualknowledge.
And we really need to buildknowledge, to build
comprehension, and not justthink of it as just like a skill
activity.
And so I think that really tiesinto what I'm sort of saying
(41:24):
about multilingual learners andbilingual learners that we
really need to ground ourlessons not just in skills but
in knowledge, which inevitablyincludes vocabulary, and doing
it in all those structured,engaging ways.
Melissa (41:37):
Yeah, that's so helpful .
I'm really glad you broughtthat up, because at the
beginning we kind of saidreading is so different from
speaking, right, but they doreally tie together and it's
really important that they cometogether.
Carolyn Strom (41:52):
So important.
Yes, that's such a good point.
Like it's yeah, like readingdoes not develop like speaking,
but it's dependent on spokenlanguage.
Reading is absolutely dependenton our spoken language.
You can't read unless you havea spoken language base.
But totally, but at the sametime they don't develop in the
same way.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction.
Melissa (42:13):
And this knowledge building that you're bringing up
can actually start even throughjust spoken language, from when
they're really young.
Carolyn Strom (42:22):
Yes, yes, yes, and there's.
Kids get so engaged.
We all do, right, because we'repeople, that we're meaning
making people, but kids get soengaged in knowledge, right, so
engaged in learning about allthe different kinds of snakes or
where snakes live and whatsnakes eat, like there's,
there's knowledge is veryengaging and Anne helps us build
(42:44):
our conceptual knowledge in ourspoken language network.
So when I think, you know, whenpeople think of the science of
reading, it's not justfoundational skills, right, it's
the, it's the importance of howwe build comprehension and
textual understanding, and somuch of that comes from
knowledge building and buildingconcept knowledge.
Melissa (43:00):
Yeah, and it's.
It's kind of wild how muchyoung kids can take in, like I
said, my four year old.
Sometimes it's silly stuff,like Hot Wheels.
I mean he knows all these namesof all these Hot Wheels.
But then sometimes I'm likethinking you know, one of the
Hot Wheels is called MohawkWarrior, and now he knows what a
Mohawk is Like.
Carolyn Strom (43:19):
That's like I mean it's kind of silly but at
the same time like he's buildingsome of the knowledge there
about the world that he and awhole memory network.
You know he's really building.
Melissa (43:30):
I mean, he does some serious things too, not just Hot
Wheels, but that is his thingat the moment.
Carolyn Strom (43:35):
Yeah, is he classifying them?
Oh, I don't know.
That's the next step.
Melissa (43:39):
Thank you for that pointer.
You know, yes, grouping themtogether.
Carolyn Strom (43:44):
When kids are in that phase that it's like in the
collecting phase, right, Havinga lot of one thing, then
organizing it.
I mean not again, don't push it.
If your kid is like my daughter, who's like no, I will not be
organizing them any little minortask, extra task.
I know, but some kids do likesorting and organizing and it's
good practice.
Melissa (44:05):
Well, before we go, I just want to ask you.
You know this was a really bigtopic.
We just hit on somemisconceptions today.
I'm sure there's a million morethings we could have asked you
about the brain and how itlearns to read, but do you have
any suggestions for where peoplecould learn more?
Carolyn Strom (44:21):
Yeah, so I have a newsletter.
You can sign up for that on mywebsite it's just
carolinstromcom, or you canemail me at hello at
carolinstromcom.
I believe there's still aposter on the website of sort of
my conception of the brain.
I'm working on a longer pieceabout it, but if you're curious
(44:44):
in general about sort of more, Ireally recommend Stannis
Leicester-Hahn's work Reading inthe Brain.
He's an amazing writer, anamazing researcher and is really
the pioneer in the field, alongwith work of Marianne Wolfe I'm
sure people have talked abouther book on here before Prusa
and the Squid.
Sally Shewitz's OvercomingDyslexia Also a great and
(45:08):
accessible book about the brain.
All sort of talking about theconcepts we spoke about today.
Great.
Melissa (45:16):
Well, thank you for those recommendations and thank
you so much for sharing all ofthis wonderful information with
us today.
We're so thankful.
Thank you for hosting thisgreat podcast.
Lori (45:28):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy Lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
Melissa (45:37):
And to keep learning together.
Join the Melissa and Lori LoveLiteracy Podcast Facebook group
and be sure to follow us onInstagram and Twitter.
Lori (45:46):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (45:56):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (46:08):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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