October 20, 2023 • 41 mins
Nadine Gaab, Associate Professor of Education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, joins us on the podcast to talk about how brains learn to read. Reading development starts in utero because the fundamental milestones for learning to read are sounds and language processing. Brain research shows us the brain of children learning to read is different in struggling readers. Dr. Gaab debunks dyslexia myths and connects the importance of early screening and intervention for dyslexia.
Resources
- Dyslexia Myths GaabLab.com
- The Truth About Reading Documentary Trailer
- How Can We Ensure That Every Child Will Learn to Read? The Need for a Global, Neurodevelopmental Perspective - International Dyslexia Association
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:00):
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
Join us as we focus on learningabout dyslexia this October.
Today we talked to Nadine Gaababout research she has conducted
about the brain and how itlearns to read.
We will also talk about theimportant topic of dyslexia and
how we can ensure all studentslearn to read.
Lori (00:22):
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:29):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too.
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, Lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:46):
Hi everyone, welcome to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
We are really excited fortoday's guest because full
disclosure we have been wantingto have this guest on the
podcast since we saw her on theTruth About Reading documentary
teaser, Which- was like almosttwo years ago.
Melissa (01:04):
I know it was, but she captured us with her clarity and
communication about how thebrain learns to read.
Yes so we are here with NadineGaab and she is an associate
professor of education at theHarvard Graduate School of
Education and her work focuseson get ready.
It's a lot ready developmentalcognitive neuroscience.
I feel like she might be toosmart for us.
(01:26):
I'm not sure.
She specifically looks atlanguage-based learning
disabilities and typical andatypical reading development.
So we're really excited to jumpinto this conversation today
and learn a lot.
Nadine Gaab (01:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
This is very exciting.
Lori (01:46):
Yeah, could you start by telling us a little bit about
yourself and your research?
Just set a baseline for us andour listeners.
Nadine Gaab (01:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've been working in theliteracy space for I don't know,
like maybe 20 years, and my labis at the intersection of many
different things.
So we definitely do veryhardcore basic neuroscience.
We do work related to education, we do work related to
(02:18):
educational and clinical policy,we do work related to ATT&CK
and the questions we ask are;how do you know typical atypical
reading develops over time andlook at developmental
trajectories of this development?
So what we do a lot is we haveinfants come to the lab, maybe
(02:42):
four to six months old, and theyeither have or have not a
familiar risk to developproblems with reading.
And then we follow them overmany, many years and we look at
their language development,their reading development, their
environment, their, you knowwhich schools they go to, etc.
And then we ask questions, likeyou know, in the children who
(03:05):
subsequently develop, you know,typical reading skills versus
atypical reading skills.
What is different?
Where do these trajectoriesdiverge?
We also do a lot oftranslational work, where we are
different from otherneuroscience labs.
So we are always asking likehow is that research question we
are asking right now related tothe field of education, related
(03:29):
to educational policy, relatedto clinical policy, and how can
we, you know, translate ourfindings into contemporary
questions in education andeducation policy?
So we do a lot of advocacy work, a lot of like teacher training
, a lot of like fun, you know,seminars for kids, etc.
Melissa (03:55):
That's so important.
I think there's a lot of timeswe see research separate from
what's actually happening inclassrooms, and we just love
hearing that you're helping tobridge that, that divide that
sometimes exists.
Okay, so I'm going to startwith a really big question that
you could probably teach a wholecourse on, but we're going to
ask you to answer in fiveminutes, which is how do our
(04:18):
brains learn how to read?
Nadine Gaab (04:21):
Yes, so you know, the short answer is we know a
lot but we don't know everything.
So I think that's reallyimportant to keep in mind.
So there's just not one waythat everyone, you know, or
every single brain, learns toread.
But what we could say is and I,you know, I'm sure you had many
(04:44):
other guests saying thatreading development.
If you ask people, when doesreading development start in the
brain, you know it's reallyhard to pinpoint, and so
sometimes you hear, like well,it starts when you introduce
letters, maybe it starts whenyou start formal schooling.
No, it should start earlier, Idon't know.
So it's really interestingquestion.
(05:05):
And so we believe that readingdevelopment starts in utero,
because the fundamentalmilestones for learning to read
are sound and languageprocessing, and so, if you like,
shift it that way, then youwant to look at, you know,
reading development in the brainas early as in utero, and so
early on.
You know we need to understand,you know, the sounds of our
(05:29):
language.
We need to understand.
You know how the sounds relateto each other.
We need to, you know, startunderstanding words, develop
vocabulary, develop, like howthese different words go
together, like the syntax, youknow, and all of these things
happen, you know, way before westart then mapping the sounds of
(05:54):
our language onto the graphthemes, onto the written
counterparts, and so when wethink about how does reading
develop in the brain, we need tothink about oral language being
the first four years of readingdevelopment.
So that would be areasprimarily, you know, in the, you
know, left hemisphere forlanguage.
(06:15):
So there is an area called theSuperior Temple Lo which does a
lot of the sound processing andthe language processing that I
just described, and then, as Isaid at one point, we are
mapping the sounds onto thewritten counterparts, the graph
themes, and so there's, you know, also areas in the brain and
(06:37):
the left side that are, you know, responsible for these kinds of
mappings.
You also want to recognize print, right, so you want to
recognize single letters and youwant to recognize words, and so
there's a really cool area inthe brain called the Letterbox,
(06:58):
or some people call it thevisual word from area which
sounds a little bit moreofficial, and that area is
really important because it isexperience dependent.
So if you don't learn to readso let's say you an illiterate
adult in your 50s you don't havethat area's specificity.
(07:21):
So this area will not respondto sounds and letters.
But if you learn to read, youknow that teaching actually
makes the area be specificallyprocessing letters and sounds.
And so, put together, we havelike a triangle in the back of
(07:41):
our left side of the brain whereyou put the oral language piece
, the mapping of the orallanguage piece onto the print
and the print recognition piecetogether, and so early on, we
need to like create thattriangle.
So that's why learning phonicsand learning, like you know,
what sound does this letter makeor what sound does this letter
(08:02):
combination make, you know, isreally really important.
And then subsequently itrelates to the CEO of the
reading network, which issitting more in the, you know,
front of the brain, and the CEOis responsible, like any CEO in
the company for, you know,integrating into a bigger
picture, deciding what'simportant right now, what to
(08:25):
focus on, what to ignore.
And so we have this like fourkey areas so the CEO, the area
that does the oral languageprocessing, the area that does
the mapping, the mapping of theoral language onto print, and
the area that does print as someof the four key areas.
But it's really important thatthere's a lot more going on than
(08:45):
these four areas and then itcould look, you know, a bit
different depending on you knowsome factors in environment and
some factors in you know, anindividual child.
Lori (08:58):
Yeah, that's so exciting to think about all of the things
that are coming together tomake reading happen, or, I guess
, maybe learning to read happenso early.
I Googled while you weretalking.
I hope that's all right, it's,I was.
I was like exactly when andgestation does it begin?
It says 15 to 22 weeks.
Is Google?
(09:18):
Is that right?
Nadine Gaab (09:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's when you know soundprocessing is starting.
And you know, I really think,if we think about early
identification or thinking aboutkids struggling with learning
to read, we often only juststarted, like kindergarten or
preschool, without realizingthat you know, these fundamental
milestones like soundprocessing and language
(09:41):
processing happened so muchearlier.
So thinking about risk factors,thinking, thinking about early
identification should move wayearlier, and so that's why we
focus on a lot in my lab.
Lori (09:55):
I feel like that leads me to ask then, in your lab, what
brain research have you has?
What has the brain researchshown you so far?
Is anything been like a big wowfor you?
I mean, do you still getstunned when you're doing the
research?
Nadine Gaab (10:11):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So what we do a lot is so werecruit infants or, you know,
toddlers, and then we look attheir brain while they're
peacefully sleeping in our bigbrain camera and we then follow
them over many, many years.
So we have some kids we arefollowing into middle school
(10:31):
from infancy.
So first of all, it's justreally cute to see them come
back and see them grow up withus and we're, you know, looking
at these trajectories we arelooking at, you know how do oral
language areas in the brain,but also behaviorally, you know,
develop?
How does it then, you know,develop when you are a print to
(10:54):
the mix?
You know how do thesetrajectories differ between kids
who subsequently struggle withreading versus not, and what is
the role of the environment?
So you know home literacy andsome other you know important
factors in, you know,influencing these trajectories.
So one important thing that wecould show is so for the longest
(11:17):
time we knew that the brain ofchildren who struggle with
learning to read is differentfrom the brain of kids who do
not struggle with learning toread, and so we didn't know as a
field whether that you knowdifference or that alteration of
brain structure and function inkids who struggle is a result
(11:39):
of struggling with learning toread on a daily basis, or is
this something that you can seeprior to the first day of formal
schooling?
And we could show that some ofthese brain alterations in older
children who, let's say, have adiagnosis of dyslexia or who
are struggling readers, arepresent.
You know, as young as you knowfour.
(12:01):
We can even see some of thesealterations seem to be present
in infancy, and that hasimportant implications for
policy, right?
So that means that children arenot coming as clean slates into
the first day of school withtheir little backpacks.
No, it means that some kids arestarting their first day of
school with a less optimal brainfor learning to read.
(12:24):
So we think you need to findthem you know, the latest, right
then, or ideally way earlier,so we can have a preventative
approach to education, similarto like preventative medicine,
where you find kids who are atrisk to develop problems with
(12:45):
reading but help them earlyenough so they never develop
problems with learning to read.
Melissa (12:52):
And I know you mentioned as the dyslexia
paradox, and this sounds likeit's.
Is this the same thing thatwe're talking about here, or is
it different?
Nadine Gaab (13:00):
Yeah.
So the dyslexia paradoxdescribes the discrepancy
between when we currentlydiagnose or identify children
who struggle with learning toread, or including dyslexia or
other reading disabilities, andwhen the optimal window for
intervention is.
(13:21):
So we currently have thisreactive approach on the way to
fail model where we have thissort of thing Everyone comes
with a clean slate.
We just add reading instructionon top of it and then we just
see who's going to struggle andwho is not going to struggle,
(13:41):
and then, once kids strugglelong enough, at one point we're
like okay, now we need to dosomething, maybe do a little bit
of intervention, maybe a littlebit more, maybe get an IAP
evaluation, etc.
But that has tremendousimplication for mental health
and academic, vocational,economic outcomes.
(14:03):
And so what research has shownis that the window for the most
effective intervention isactually way earlier than when
we currently identify childrenstruggling readers, so more in
preschool and kindergarten.
And so this is the paradox thatyou are not getting identified
as having these special needsfor reading until you struggle
(14:30):
for many years.
But by then the window for themost optimal intervention and
I'm not saying the window forany intervention, but the most
optimal intervention has closed.
And often people ask me why isthat?
Melissa (14:45):
Yeah, why is that?
Nadine Gaab (14:46):
window so early.
And it is because, first of all, the brain is a lot more
plastic for language the youngerwe are, so it's easier to learn
a second language without anaccent.
But also, you know, it's reallyhard to catch up in fourth
grade if you're reading on thekindergarten level and everyone
(15:08):
else is already reading likechapter books and adding all
these vocabulary and complexsentences to their brains.
And the background knowledgethat you miss when you can't
read outside of school or thecontent you are not accessing,
(15:30):
the implications for othersubjects like word problems and
math is really big, and so it'sreally hard to catch up later.
And so preventative educationis a much better way to find
kids early, intervene early andput them on the trajectory, and
(15:51):
you can prevent most readingdifficulties that way.
Lori (15:55):
I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I do see that
question out there a lot.
Can dyslexia be prevented?
Is this true?
And I guess the idea ofstarting earlier and intervening
earlier makes sense.
You're getting ahead of it.
I feel that way too.
Like not to compare, but withthings like speech or like the
(16:16):
earlier that we intervene thebetter.
I don't know if that's the casewith everything, but I'm so
glad that you spoke to that.
I think that that's reallyimportant because there are a
lot of myths out there I thinkabout.
Can dyslexia be prevented?
Nadine Gaab (16:31):
Yeah, I mean it's similar to like.
I often compare it to heartdisease.
So we embrace preventativemedicine.
We all love preventativemedicine.
So you go to your checkups andyou check your cholesterol and
if it's high you do all kinds oflike extra exercises and change
your diet and do medication andthe ultimate goal is not to
(16:52):
develop heart disease.
You also don't get a heartdisease diagnosis when you just
have high cholesterol.
You just have a heightened riskand you need to bring down the
risk.
And that's the same idea herewith screening and finding kids
early, right To like.
Look at age four, even earlier.
See the kids who have aheightened risk to develop
(17:12):
problems with reading.
Help them right then, with theultimate goal that they never
develop problems with reading.
I'm curious.
Melissa (17:20):
I don't know if you can go, I don't know how deep you
can go into this, but are therethings that parents or teachers
of the youngest kids could lookfor or should be looking for, as
these, these, you know, riskfactors, or is it like in the
brain and they wouldn't even beable to really see it?
Nadine Gaab (17:41):
No, no, so you know , you could see it.
There is, like you know, reallyestablished pre-literacy
measures that can reliably tellyou who will you know who has a
higher risk to develop problemswith reading, and these include,
you know, phonologicalawareness or the ability to
manipulate the sounds oflanguage.
(18:02):
And in the little kids, youcould do this by, you know,
asking, you know giving kidsthree words and ask them to
decide which two sound alikeright.
They don't even need to knowthe concept of rhyming.
You could say hat, red house,which two sound alike, right.
You could also, you know, lookat, you know, we know that
(18:25):
letter sound knowledge, letter.
You know names are reallyimportant predictors.
We know that really importantpredictors are oral language.
So, looking at oral listening,comprehension, vocabulary, you
know there is, you know, aseries of these.
You know measures that thescience of reading, the research
(18:50):
, has identified as being thekey predictors of, you know, a
successful or atypical readingdevelopment, and so they could
be measured as early as, youknow, preschool, and it could be
done in a really fun way.
So, you know, I'm always sayinglike introducing literacy can
(19:10):
be done anywhere in, like youknow, forest preschool as much
as like a more formal setting.
That's really helpful.
Yeah, I mean, like we were justtalking about this.
What could you potentially do?
And I said, well, you could belike running to the forest and
say let's find two things thatstart with the same sound.
(19:31):
Let's look for the things thatstart with the little sound,
right?
Or you could like find allkinds of cool stuff and sort
them based on you know whichsound they start with, and so
that can be, you know, done in areally fun way and can tell you
whether some kids you knowstruggle with those kinds of
(19:51):
concepts and tasks.
Melissa (19:53):
Yeah, I talk about it a lot on the podcast.
I do a lot of that.
I have a four year old and wedo a lot of that.
Just, I mean, I'm not testinghim, I'm not even honestly, I'm
not even like I'm not even doingit.
Really, it's often him that'sringing up like oh, I know this
new sound and he's like whatother words start with that
sound and we just kind of it isit's almost like a game, but it
is like helpful for me to knowthat he's hearing these things.
Lori (20:17):
Yeah, no I.
Melissa (20:18):
I, but it doesn't have to.
It's not like I'm testing him,you know.
Let's sit down and do aliteracy test.
Yeah, yeah.
Nadine Gaab (20:25):
No, we, we, when my kids were, you know, smaller,
we did this in the car a lot,right.
So in the car you can play allkinds of like.
One game they still like toplay is like we, you know, play
it with animals, and so you sayan animal and then the next
person needs to find an animalthat starts with the sound the
previous animal ended with, andso you could do this really fun
(20:45):
chain yeah.
Lori (20:46):
Like Badger raccoon, you would.
Okay, that's me.
What a fun game, I mean.
And teachers could play this,while I mean lots of wasted time
while we're waiting forstudents to go to the bathroom.
Yep, that is so neat, are there?
I feel like there are maybesome other things that you, that
I don't know, to share aboutthem, like any myths about
(21:11):
dyslexia.
Nadine Gaab (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, so they're like.
On our website, govlabcom, wehave a lot of these myths I
think 50 or so and that we liketo debunk.
I think the more obvious onesare you know, all individuals
who struggle with reading areyou know, mirror the letters, or
you know read from left toright, and so that's one big
(21:34):
myth.
Or that it's related to visualprocessing or the alignment of
your eyes.
It's another big myth.
What else is there?
Oh, that children with dyslexiacan't read at all.
Right, that's another big myth.
That they will always grow outof there.
Dyslexia.
You just you know, oh, it's asummer baby, oh it's a boy.
(21:57):
You just wait a couple yearsand they will catch up.
What else do we have?
Melissa (22:04):
Can you tell us a little bit about those ones that
you just mentioned, Like what?
Like what is happening forsomeone that has dyslexia, if
it's not the letter reversal,yeah, yeah struggling to read
what what is happening so?
Nadine Gaab (22:18):
the letter.
Reversal is actually somethingthat a lot of kids do.
They do this all the way tolike third grade, fourth grade,
and then usually it goes away.
And one reason kids do it and Ithink you know understanding
this will help maybe prevent itin a classroom setting is when
you learn, you know to namethings like, let's say you are a
(22:41):
toddler and I show you like apen or I show you glasses here.
It doesn't matter how I rotatethis object, it's always the
same label, right?
So this is a pen, but if I dothis it's still a pen.
And if I rotate it, you know180, whatever degree, it always
(23:01):
stays a pen.
It's the same with a book onthe chair and you know glasses,
whatever, but it's.
Then you start school andsomeone introduces letters to
you and that concept now changes, right?
So if you have a B, you know itdoesn't stay a B.
If you rotate it, it suddenlybecomes a D or like a P or like
(23:24):
a Q.
Right, and so kids, some kidshave a really hard time
understanding that.
Some objects that I see, somevisual, you know objects I see
3D or 2D, you know change labelsif you change the perspective,
and so that's something that isjust you know, developmentally
(23:44):
happening in many, many kids.
Kids with dyslexia don't show,like more of you, know the
letter of results or less.
Yeah, so I think you know itshould be addressed in in any
kid if it occurs for a long time.
But dyslexia can be describedas a condition where kids have
(24:04):
problems with the word reading.
So subsequently that wordreading problem can lead to
problems with reading fluency orreading comprehension.
But the core deficit that thesechildren is the decoding of
single words, so putting thesounds together and then you
could break it down into, youknow, knowing the sound of a
(24:27):
letter, blending these soundstogether, decoding these words.
And so that is, you know, thecore problem in kids with
dyslexia diagnosis versus kidswho have a reading comprehension
deficit.
Maybe you know good decodersbut then struggle with
(24:49):
understanding what they read,which goes more into the oral
language piece we discussedearlier.
Lori (24:55):
That's so helpful, nadine, I'm.
I actually work with a littleguy who is in third grade and
does have was diagnosed withdyslexia, and I do notice so
much that he he tends to try topull from his memory and we're
trying to like break that.
(25:15):
So, for example, there was aname on the page the other day
and it said Roy.
And he kept saying Ryan.
And I said can you, let's youknow?
I did kind of what you saidearlier, like let's just cover
the word for a minute.
I'm going to say this say thesounds in the word or or what's
the name.
He said Roy.
(25:36):
I said, well, you keep sayingRyan, what?
What's making you think Ryan?
And what I'm guessing andplease correct me if I'm wrong
is that he has seen the wordRyan in a name, hasn't seen the
word Roy, and it was just movingquickly because he knew it was
a name there's at least a fewletters that are the same.
A couple letters are the sameand just going for it like that
(25:58):
whole word recognition.
And we're trying I'm trying tobreak that because I think his
strategy thus far has been comejust going to memorize the word,
and I covered up another word.
I was like it looks like we'redoing the same thing with this
one.
I was like, but this one youdon't know, I think you just
memorized it a moment ago and itwas in a bug book and it was
the word nymph and I was like Iguarantee he's never seen this
word before.
(26:18):
But he, like seconds, memorizedit and it was like very fool,
kind of fooling if I wasn'tlooking out for it.
Nadine Gaab (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean you know the, the
memorizing word becomeseventually important, right,
because you don't want to soundout every single word for the
rest of your life, but you knowso.
So we are building a biggerside word repertoire.
And I'm not meaning the wordsthat you know you can't decode,
(26:47):
I'm meaning words that you justrecognize because you've seen
them over and over and overagain.
But it is really important thatearly on, you you know decode,
so you can, you know, you know,have an accurate representation
of the word and you can, youknow, decode new words that are
not part of your side words.
So you know I think it's, it's,you know, but it can be a habit
(27:12):
you know to to rely on thisorthographic, you know, mapping
and the object recognition ifyou are struggling with putting
the sounds together.
Lori (27:23):
Yeah, that's helpful.
So I think we do know right.
What we do know is that 95% ofkids can learn how to read, and
that's promising.
But how do we do this, nadine?
How do we ensure that 95% ofkids learn how to read?
Nadine Gaab (27:40):
Yeah.
So I think you know there'smany different factors that come
together.
So I think you know oneimportant piece that we work on
is the early you knowidentification of children at
risk.
So the you know screening andand you know, there has been
more and more legislationrelated to screening and early
(28:03):
identification.
In educational setting we do alot big push-off like moving
this also into communitysettings.
So having pediatricians doscreening, having social workers
be involved in the earlyidentification, having libraries
play a role in this, so it canbe a community effort in
(28:24):
addition to, like, churches, etcetera, in addition to the
school setting.
But you know, we can screen thewhole world.
If we don't do anything inresponse to it, it's kind of
useless, right?
So, first of all, you need toknow how to respond to a
screening result, so you need tobe able to interpret it.
You need to be able to.
(28:45):
You know, though, okay, thisgroup of children or this
individual child needs thefollowing things so that brings
us to teacher training, thatbrings us to, you know, really
good professional development.
And then you know, some kidsmaybe get identified and then
they get maybe, you know, putinto tier two, tier three, and
(29:08):
the tier two and tier threedoesn't align with the tier one
curriculum, and so that leads tovery big confusion, right?
So you get some of the reallygood sounding out words, let's
say in a tier three setting andspecial education, and then
you're going back into theclassroom where there's no
emphasis on this.
So that brings you back andforth, confuses you and almost
(29:31):
like erases what you've done inthe hard work you know on
one-on-one, maybe specialeducation setting.
Melissa (29:38):
I was thinking about that with Lori's student Like I
wonder.
When you were talking, I waslike I wonder what's happening
in school.
Yeah, you know you're trying toteach undo something and
Totally.
Lori (29:47):
Yeah, and our district is uses balance literacy Lucy
Cochens and Fontencent Penel, soI can say that it's very
minimal.
I mean, it is three queuing andI've had to undo that work, but
it is like a constant.
I feel like it's a tug of war,you know.
Melissa (30:04):
Because that's where he's going every day, right,
that's where he's spending moretime.
Lori (30:07):
It's really difficult.
That's such a good point topoint out.
Nadine Gaab (30:10):
Yeah, so you know, and that's not all of it.
I think there's many morefactors you know, making sure we
have unbiased assessments andyou know curricula, making sure
you know we look at these.
You know environmental factors,poverty, the influence of, you
(30:33):
know the home, literacy, theinfluence of neighborhood
factors, stress.
You know parents, maybe, whostruggle with.
You know substance abuse or youknow some.
There's a lot going on in kids'lives.
So seeing the child as a wholeand seeing literacy as a skill
(30:54):
that you know needs to develop,with all of these factors taken
into account, will bring us,hopefully to you know, a better
outcome in long term.
Melissa (31:06):
I have one quick question about the early
screeners too, and this is likea genuine question, because it
seems like it could be a littlebit messy with like where?
Where are they getting screened?
If it's before kindergarten,Like is it?
They don't all have pre-Knecessarily, and if it should be
earlier than pre-K even, wheredoes that happen?
Yeah?
Nadine Gaab (31:28):
yeah.
So we really push that's my oneof my favorite topics right now
we really push for, you know,pediatricians to play a bigger
role, and I can give you a bitof background on this.
So pediatricians actuallyscreen for autism and ADHD,
right, and so it's just standardof like checkups, and so if you
(31:51):
ask them, so why do you screenfor autism and ADHD but you
don't screen for learningdisabilities?
And that's the same fordyscalculia, dysgraphia or any
of them?
They will.
They will often answer you well, because autism and ADHD often
require a medical response toscreening, and so we're, you
know, in the medical field.
(32:11):
So that's within our, you know,area of expertise.
But learning disabilities wouldrequire an educational
intervention or an educationalresponse to screening.
So that's outside of ourexpertise.
So we have nothing to do withthis.
We argue back saying no, no, no,no, because there's so big
implication for mental health.
(32:33):
We see higher rates of anxiety,then depression, and kids with
learning disabilities.
We see, you know, all theseimpacts on economic outcome,
academic outcome, vocationaloutcome, and we know that you
know it, being, you know, lessproficient in reading has
implication for your health,because you can't, maybe, read
(32:53):
the prescription bottle.
You can't, you know, decidebetween two surgeries, if
someone gives you a leaflet todecide which one you want to do,
etc.
Etc.
So we say you know you shouldstart screening.
And then we need to startestablishing some sort of
referral process from thescreening to maybe you know
(33:15):
you're more in depth screening.
Maybe could do like a oneminute screening in a pediatric
practice which could lead to amore in depth screening which
could then relate to somereferral mechanisms.
Or, you know, increasedcommunication between
pediatricians in schools.
We just developed a checklistfor the pediatric practice
because they said, well, even ifwe want to do it, there is no
(33:38):
checklist out there.
So we're, you know, working on,you know, validating this and
seeing how it could beimplemented in, you know,
pediatric settings.
Melissa (33:48):
That's so cool.
That's what I was going to say.
I mean, I have to do them everytime I go to the pediatrician
with my son and it's so quick tojust do it.
You know, yes, I'm seeing thesethings, or no, I'm not seeing
those things.
At least as a first step, itseems like why not?
Yeah?
Nadine Gaab (34:04):
yeah, we also think libraries could play a big role
, right?
So you could have like thesescreening days in libraries,
maybe the first four weekendsbefore you know, in the school
year and then maybe related to,like some you know, offering,
like community groups, playgroups that focus on certain
skills, certain milestones,maybe link it to what kind of
books you would recommend forthis child reading, depending on
(34:28):
which milestones he or she orthey have reached and not
reached yet.
There's many different ways howyou know it could be taking
that the burden could be takingaway from school more.
I don't say they should stopdoing it, but we could do some
of the, you know, quickerprescreenings in community
settings.
Melissa (34:48):
Yeah, and I would say you have more information going
into schools right about astudent than just like you said.
They don't necessarily justshow up as a clean state slate
that you have to figure outwhat's what's happening Exactly.
Yes, I love this.
Nadine Gaab (35:01):
I don't know how we can help, but if we can help,
you know, just talking about itand raising awareness and having
more people say why don't we dothis?
It's a big part of, like youknow, making change and making
sure people you know buy in andhelp with.
(35:23):
You know leading the change.
Lori (35:25):
I love the idea, too, of the community just rallying
around the next generation.
It just feels so important.
Melissa (35:31):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Is there anything else that youwant our listeners to know
about?
Nadine Gaab (35:35):
I guess dyslexia specifically, or we can open it
to anything about learning toread, or I think, you know, it
would be great if we could, youknow, focus more on the mental
health piece.
So I feel like a lot of peoplejust focus on the academics and
we're looking at the do theymake progress in word reading
(35:58):
and do they make progress onthis assessment, etc.
But, but you know, we see thison a daily basis.
Like struggling with learningto read has tremendous
implication for your self esteem, how you see yourself as a
learner, how motivated you areto learn.
(36:18):
We always say that reading is achild's first job, right?
So, oh, you start kindergarten,you're going to learn to read.
Are you going to, you know,read to your little sister?
Oh, soon, you can read thebackup, the cereal box, right?
It's sort of a kid's first job.
Failing at your first job islike it has tremendous,
tremendous implication for yourmental health, your, you know,
(36:41):
your, your self esteem, etc.
So I feel like we, yes, we needto focus on academics, but I
feel like we need to focus evenmore on, you know, the mental
health piece.
And that's where, you know, theprevention comes in.
So if they, you know, if wefind these children early, help
early, you know, the mentalhealth piece is, you know so
(37:04):
much better than you knowdeveloping really good
interventions in sixth gradewhen you know you've already you
know went through five, sixyears of struggling and what
that does to your mental health.
Lori (37:18):
Nadine?
What about the parents who hearfrom schools something like
well, just keep reading to yourchild at home, they'll get it
eventually.
Just keep reading to them, keepdoing it.
What would you say to them?
Nadine Gaab (37:33):
Yeah, yeah, so we know that home literacy plays a
role.
So it's so, we're not saying itdoesn't play a role at all.
So it is important to, like youknow, read to your child early,
have a variety of books fromthe library or, you know, in
your environment, point outletters when you go grocery
shopping.
You know these kinds of things.
(37:55):
But actually, if you look at,you know, the factors predicting
reading outcome, home literacydoes predict a little bit, but
not like a big portion of it.
And so you know, yes, you cansee reading disabilities in kids
who have really strong homeliteracy environments and in
(38:16):
kids who don't have strongliteracy environments.
So so, you know, just readingto your child and just putting
them, you know, emerged into arich literacy environment
doesn't automatically make thema reader.
It needs, like, explicitinstruction and it needs, you
know, explicit, you know,instruction that sometimes needs
(38:39):
to look a little bit moredifferent in terms of frequency,
intensity, intensity, but also,you know, rigorous, following
the.
You know the, you knowstructured, you know steps, and
so I think, you know, notfeeling guilty, would I tell
(38:59):
them, and you know, just makingsure that the child is, you know
, still enjoying books andliteracy and still enjoying, you
know, listening to thesewonderful stories which will
enhance their vocabulary, whichwill enhance their number of
complex sentences here.
And you know podcasts can play areally big role here as well.
(39:22):
I was just talking to a mom whowas really worried about, you
know, the lower vocabulary inher son because of the reading
piece and you know I asked herwhat is your son interested in?
And she said all he'sinterested in is these electric
cars.
(39:42):
And so I'm like find a podcast.
And so now he's the expert andit's like really boosted his
self-esteem because he knowseverything about electric cars,
wants to become a mechanicalengineer.
It's really motivated and hasreally increased vocabulary and,
you know, complex listeningcomprehension pieces through a
(40:03):
podcast.
So I feel like you know you can, you know, just keep doing more
of the good stuff and try tolike keep the love of reading in
any form or the love oflistening to stories.
Lori (40:19):
Yeah, that's helpful, thank you, and such practical
advice.
Well, thank you so much.
This is such a treat, and wecan't wait to hear or see or
watch something with you again.
It's just you're so captivatingand you make things really easy
to understand.
So thank you for being here andthank you for all that you do.
Nadine Gaab (40:40):
Yeah, thank you for inviting me, it was fun.
Lori (40:44):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy Lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom and to keep
learning together.
Melissa (40:54):
join the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast
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Lori (41:02):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
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Melissa (41:12):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (41:24):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
Join us as we focus on learningabout dyslexia this October.
Today we talked to Nadine Gaababout research she has conducted
about the brain and how itlearns to read.
We will also talk about theimportant topic of dyslexia and
how we can ensure all studentslearn to read.
Lori (00:22):
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:29):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too.
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, Lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:46):
Hi everyone, welcome to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy.
We are really excited fortoday's guest because full
disclosure we have been wantingto have this guest on the
podcast since we saw her on theTruth About Reading documentary
teaser, Which- was like almosttwo years ago.
Melissa (01:04):
I know it was, but she captured us with her clarity and
communication about how thebrain learns to read.
Yes so we are here with NadineGaab and she is an associate
professor of education at theHarvard Graduate School of
Education and her work focuseson get ready.
It's a lot ready developmentalcognitive neuroscience.
I feel like she might be toosmart for us.
(01:26):
I'm not sure.
She specifically looks atlanguage-based learning
disabilities and typical andatypical reading development.
So we're really excited to jumpinto this conversation today
and learn a lot.
Nadine Gaab (01:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
This is very exciting.
Lori (01:46):
Yeah, could you start by telling us a little bit about
yourself and your research?
Just set a baseline for us andour listeners.
Nadine Gaab (01:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So I've been working in theliteracy space for I don't know,
like maybe 20 years, and my labis at the intersection of many
different things.
So we definitely do veryhardcore basic neuroscience.
We do work related to education, we do work related to
(02:18):
educational and clinical policy,we do work related to ATT&CK
and the questions we ask are;how do you know typical atypical
reading develops over time andlook at developmental
trajectories of this development?
So what we do a lot is we haveinfants come to the lab, maybe
(02:42):
four to six months old, and theyeither have or have not a
familiar risk to developproblems with reading.
And then we follow them overmany, many years and we look at
their language development,their reading development, their
environment, their, you knowwhich schools they go to, etc.
And then we ask questions, likeyou know, in the children who
(03:05):
subsequently develop, you know,typical reading skills versus
atypical reading skills.
What is different?
Where do these trajectoriesdiverge?
We also do a lot oftranslational work, where we are
different from otherneuroscience labs.
So we are always asking likehow is that research question we
are asking right now related tothe field of education, related
(03:29):
to educational policy, relatedto clinical policy, and how can
we, you know, translate ourfindings into contemporary
questions in education andeducation policy?
So we do a lot of advocacy work, a lot of like teacher training
, a lot of like fun, you know,seminars for kids, etc.
Melissa (03:55):
That's so important.
I think there's a lot of timeswe see research separate from
what's actually happening inclassrooms, and we just love
hearing that you're helping tobridge that, that divide that
sometimes exists.
Okay, so I'm going to startwith a really big question that
you could probably teach a wholecourse on, but we're going to
ask you to answer in fiveminutes, which is how do our
(04:18):
brains learn how to read?
Nadine Gaab (04:21):
Yes, so you know, the short answer is we know a
lot but we don't know everything.
So I think that's reallyimportant to keep in mind.
So there's just not one waythat everyone, you know, or
every single brain, learns toread.
But what we could say is and I,you know, I'm sure you had many
(04:44):
other guests saying thatreading development.
If you ask people, when doesreading development start in the
brain, you know it's reallyhard to pinpoint, and so
sometimes you hear, like well,it starts when you introduce
letters, maybe it starts whenyou start formal schooling.
No, it should start earlier, Idon't know.
So it's really interestingquestion.
(05:05):
And so we believe that readingdevelopment starts in utero,
because the fundamentalmilestones for learning to read
are sound and languageprocessing, and so, if you like,
shift it that way, then youwant to look at, you know,
reading development in the brainas early as in utero, and so
early on.
You know we need to understand,you know, the sounds of our
(05:29):
language.
We need to understand.
You know how the sounds relateto each other.
We need to, you know, startunderstanding words, develop
vocabulary, develop, like howthese different words go
together, like the syntax, youknow, and all of these things
happen, you know, way before westart then mapping the sounds of
(05:54):
our language onto the graphthemes, onto the written
counterparts, and so when wethink about how does reading
develop in the brain, we need tothink about oral language being
the first four years of readingdevelopment.
So that would be areasprimarily, you know, in the, you
know, left hemisphere forlanguage.
(06:15):
So there is an area called theSuperior Temple Lo which does a
lot of the sound processing andthe language processing that I
just described, and then, as Isaid at one point, we are
mapping the sounds onto thewritten counterparts, the graph
themes, and so there's, you know, also areas in the brain and
(06:37):
the left side that are, you know, responsible for these kinds of
mappings.
You also want to recognize print, right, so you want to
recognize single letters and youwant to recognize words, and so
there's a really cool area inthe brain called the Letterbox,
(06:58):
or some people call it thevisual word from area which
sounds a little bit moreofficial, and that area is
really important because it isexperience dependent.
So if you don't learn to readso let's say you an illiterate
adult in your 50s you don't havethat area's specificity.
(07:21):
So this area will not respondto sounds and letters.
But if you learn to read, youknow that teaching actually
makes the area be specificallyprocessing letters and sounds.
And so, put together, we havelike a triangle in the back of
(07:41):
our left side of the brain whereyou put the oral language piece
, the mapping of the orallanguage piece onto the print
and the print recognition piecetogether, and so early on, we
need to like create thattriangle.
So that's why learning phonicsand learning, like you know,
what sound does this letter makeor what sound does this letter
(08:02):
combination make, you know, isreally really important.
And then subsequently itrelates to the CEO of the
reading network, which issitting more in the, you know,
front of the brain, and the CEOis responsible, like any CEO in
the company for, you know,integrating into a bigger
picture, deciding what'simportant right now, what to
(08:25):
focus on, what to ignore.
And so we have this like fourkey areas so the CEO, the area
that does the oral languageprocessing, the area that does
the mapping, the mapping of theoral language onto print, and
the area that does print as someof the four key areas.
But it's really important thatthere's a lot more going on than
(08:45):
these four areas and then itcould look, you know, a bit
different depending on you knowsome factors in environment and
some factors in you know, anindividual child.
Lori (08:58):
Yeah, that's so exciting to think about all of the things
that are coming together tomake reading happen, or, I guess
, maybe learning to read happenso early.
I Googled while you weretalking.
I hope that's all right, it's,I was.
I was like exactly when andgestation does it begin?
It says 15 to 22 weeks.
Is Google?
(09:18):
Is that right?
Nadine Gaab (09:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's when you know soundprocessing is starting.
And you know, I really think,if we think about early
identification or thinking aboutkids struggling with learning
to read, we often only juststarted, like kindergarten or
preschool, without realizingthat you know, these fundamental
milestones like soundprocessing and language
(09:41):
processing happened so muchearlier.
So thinking about risk factors,thinking, thinking about early
identification should move wayearlier, and so that's why we
focus on a lot in my lab.
Lori (09:55):
I feel like that leads me to ask then, in your lab, what
brain research have you has?
What has the brain researchshown you so far?
Is anything been like a big wowfor you?
I mean, do you still getstunned when you're doing the
research?
Nadine Gaab (10:11):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So what we do a lot is so werecruit infants or, you know,
toddlers, and then we look attheir brain while they're
peacefully sleeping in our bigbrain camera and we then follow
them over many, many years.
So we have some kids we arefollowing into middle school
(10:31):
from infancy.
So first of all, it's justreally cute to see them come
back and see them grow up withus and we're, you know, looking
at these trajectories we arelooking at, you know how do oral
language areas in the brain,but also behaviorally, you know,
develop?
How does it then, you know,develop when you are a print to
(10:54):
the mix?
You know how do thesetrajectories differ between kids
who subsequently struggle withreading versus not, and what is
the role of the environment?
So you know home literacy andsome other you know important
factors in, you know,influencing these trajectories.
So one important thing that wecould show is so for the longest
(11:17):
time we knew that the brain ofchildren who struggle with
learning to read is differentfrom the brain of kids who do
not struggle with learning toread, and so we didn't know as a
field whether that you knowdifference or that alteration of
brain structure and function inkids who struggle is a result
(11:39):
of struggling with learning toread on a daily basis, or is
this something that you can seeprior to the first day of formal
schooling?
And we could show that some ofthese brain alterations in older
children who, let's say, have adiagnosis of dyslexia or who
are struggling readers, arepresent.
You know, as young as you knowfour.
(12:01):
We can even see some of thesealterations seem to be present
in infancy, and that hasimportant implications for
policy, right?
So that means that children arenot coming as clean slates into
the first day of school withtheir little backpacks.
No, it means that some kids arestarting their first day of
school with a less optimal brainfor learning to read.
(12:24):
So we think you need to findthem you know, the latest, right
then, or ideally way earlier,so we can have a preventative
approach to education, similarto like preventative medicine,
where you find kids who are atrisk to develop problems with
(12:45):
reading but help them earlyenough so they never develop
problems with learning to read.
Melissa (12:52):
And I know you mentioned as the dyslexia
paradox, and this sounds likeit's.
Is this the same thing thatwe're talking about here, or is
it different?
Nadine Gaab (13:00):
Yeah.
So the dyslexia paradoxdescribes the discrepancy
between when we currentlydiagnose or identify children
who struggle with learning toread, or including dyslexia or
other reading disabilities, andwhen the optimal window for
intervention is.
(13:21):
So we currently have thisreactive approach on the way to
fail model where we have thissort of thing Everyone comes
with a clean slate.
We just add reading instructionon top of it and then we just
see who's going to struggle andwho is not going to struggle,
(13:41):
and then, once kids strugglelong enough, at one point we're
like okay, now we need to dosomething, maybe do a little bit
of intervention, maybe a littlebit more, maybe get an IAP
evaluation, etc.
But that has tremendousimplication for mental health
and academic, vocational,economic outcomes.
(14:03):
And so what research has shownis that the window for the most
effective intervention isactually way earlier than when
we currently identify childrenstruggling readers, so more in
preschool and kindergarten.
And so this is the paradox thatyou are not getting identified
as having these special needsfor reading until you struggle
(14:30):
for many years.
But by then the window for themost optimal intervention and
I'm not saying the window forany intervention, but the most
optimal intervention has closed.
And often people ask me why isthat?
Melissa (14:45):
Yeah, why is that?
Nadine Gaab (14:46):
window so early.
And it is because, first of all, the brain is a lot more
plastic for language the youngerwe are, so it's easier to learn
a second language without anaccent.
But also, you know, it's reallyhard to catch up in fourth
grade if you're reading on thekindergarten level and everyone
(15:08):
else is already reading likechapter books and adding all
these vocabulary and complexsentences to their brains.
And the background knowledgethat you miss when you can't
read outside of school or thecontent you are not accessing,
(15:30):
the implications for othersubjects like word problems and
math is really big, and so it'sreally hard to catch up later.
And so preventative educationis a much better way to find
kids early, intervene early andput them on the trajectory, and
(15:51):
you can prevent most readingdifficulties that way.
Lori (15:55):
I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I do see that
question out there a lot.
Can dyslexia be prevented?
Is this true?
And I guess the idea ofstarting earlier and intervening
earlier makes sense.
You're getting ahead of it.
I feel that way too.
Like not to compare, but withthings like speech or like the
(16:16):
earlier that we intervene thebetter.
I don't know if that's the casewith everything, but I'm so
glad that you spoke to that.
I think that that's reallyimportant because there are a
lot of myths out there I thinkabout.
Can dyslexia be prevented?
Nadine Gaab (16:31):
Yeah, I mean it's similar to like.
I often compare it to heartdisease.
So we embrace preventativemedicine.
We all love preventativemedicine.
So you go to your checkups andyou check your cholesterol and
if it's high you do all kinds oflike extra exercises and change
your diet and do medication andthe ultimate goal is not to
(16:52):
develop heart disease.
You also don't get a heartdisease diagnosis when you just
have high cholesterol.
You just have a heightened riskand you need to bring down the
risk.
And that's the same idea herewith screening and finding kids
early, right To like.
Look at age four, even earlier.
See the kids who have aheightened risk to develop
(17:12):
problems with reading.
Help them right then, with theultimate goal that they never
develop problems with reading.
I'm curious.
Melissa (17:20):
I don't know if you can go, I don't know how deep you
can go into this, but are therethings that parents or teachers
of the youngest kids could lookfor or should be looking for, as
these, these, you know, riskfactors, or is it like in the
brain and they wouldn't even beable to really see it?
Nadine Gaab (17:41):
No, no, so you know , you could see it.
There is, like you know, reallyestablished pre-literacy
measures that can reliably tellyou who will you know who has a
higher risk to develop problemswith reading, and these include,
you know, phonologicalawareness or the ability to
manipulate the sounds oflanguage.
(18:02):
And in the little kids, youcould do this by, you know,
asking, you know giving kidsthree words and ask them to
decide which two sound alikeright.
They don't even need to knowthe concept of rhyming.
You could say hat, red house,which two sound alike, right.
You could also, you know, lookat, you know, we know that
(18:25):
letter sound knowledge, letter.
You know names are reallyimportant predictors.
We know that really importantpredictors are oral language.
So, looking at oral listening,comprehension, vocabulary, you
know there is, you know, aseries of these.
You know measures that thescience of reading, the research
(18:50):
, has identified as being thekey predictors of, you know, a
successful or atypical readingdevelopment, and so they could
be measured as early as, youknow, preschool, and it could be
done in a really fun way.
So, you know, I'm always sayinglike introducing literacy can
(19:10):
be done anywhere in, like youknow, forest preschool as much
as like a more formal setting.
That's really helpful.
Yeah, I mean, like we were justtalking about this.
What could you potentially do?
And I said, well, you could belike running to the forest and
say let's find two things thatstart with the same sound.
(19:31):
Let's look for the things thatstart with the little sound,
right?
Or you could like find allkinds of cool stuff and sort
them based on you know whichsound they start with, and so
that can be, you know, done in areally fun way and can tell you
whether some kids you knowstruggle with those kinds of
(19:51):
concepts and tasks.
Melissa (19:53):
Yeah, I talk about it a lot on the podcast.
I do a lot of that.
I have a four year old and wedo a lot of that.
Just, I mean, I'm not testinghim, I'm not even honestly, I'm
not even like I'm not even doingit.
Really, it's often him that'sringing up like oh, I know this
new sound and he's like whatother words start with that
sound and we just kind of it isit's almost like a game, but it
is like helpful for me to knowthat he's hearing these things.
Lori (20:17):
Yeah, no I.
Melissa (20:18):
I, but it doesn't have to.
It's not like I'm testing him,you know.
Let's sit down and do aliteracy test.
Yeah, yeah.
Nadine Gaab (20:25):
No, we, we, when my kids were, you know, smaller,
we did this in the car a lot,right.
So in the car you can play allkinds of like.
One game they still like toplay is like we, you know, play
it with animals, and so you sayan animal and then the next
person needs to find an animalthat starts with the sound the
previous animal ended with, andso you could do this really fun
(20:45):
chain yeah.
Lori (20:46):
Like Badger raccoon, you would.
Okay, that's me.
What a fun game, I mean.
And teachers could play this,while I mean lots of wasted time
while we're waiting forstudents to go to the bathroom.
Yep, that is so neat, are there?
I feel like there are maybesome other things that you, that
I don't know, to share aboutthem, like any myths about
(21:11):
dyslexia.
Nadine Gaab (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, so they're like.
On our website, govlabcom, wehave a lot of these myths I
think 50 or so and that we liketo debunk.
I think the more obvious onesare you know, all individuals
who struggle with reading areyou know, mirror the letters, or
you know read from left toright, and so that's one big
(21:34):
myth.
Or that it's related to visualprocessing or the alignment of
your eyes.
It's another big myth.
What else is there?
Oh, that children with dyslexiacan't read at all.
Right, that's another big myth.
That they will always grow outof there.
Dyslexia.
You just you know, oh, it's asummer baby, oh it's a boy.
(21:57):
You just wait a couple yearsand they will catch up.
What else do we have?
Melissa (22:04):
Can you tell us a little bit about those ones that
you just mentioned, Like what?
Like what is happening forsomeone that has dyslexia, if
it's not the letter reversal,yeah, yeah struggling to read
what what is happening so?
Nadine Gaab (22:18):
the letter.
Reversal is actually somethingthat a lot of kids do.
They do this all the way tolike third grade, fourth grade,
and then usually it goes away.
And one reason kids do it and Ithink you know understanding
this will help maybe prevent itin a classroom setting is when
you learn, you know to namethings like, let's say you are a
(22:41):
toddler and I show you like apen or I show you glasses here.
It doesn't matter how I rotatethis object, it's always the
same label, right?
So this is a pen, but if I dothis it's still a pen.
And if I rotate it, you know180, whatever degree, it always
(23:01):
stays a pen.
It's the same with a book onthe chair and you know glasses,
whatever, but it's.
Then you start school andsomeone introduces letters to
you and that concept now changes, right?
So if you have a B, you know itdoesn't stay a B.
If you rotate it, it suddenlybecomes a D or like a P or like
(23:24):
a Q.
Right, and so kids, some kidshave a really hard time
understanding that.
Some objects that I see, somevisual, you know objects I see
3D or 2D, you know change labelsif you change the perspective,
and so that's something that isjust you know, developmentally
(23:44):
happening in many, many kids.
Kids with dyslexia don't show,like more of you, know the
letter of results or less.
Yeah, so I think you know itshould be addressed in in any
kid if it occurs for a long time.
But dyslexia can be describedas a condition where kids have
(24:04):
problems with the word reading.
So subsequently that wordreading problem can lead to
problems with reading fluency orreading comprehension.
But the core deficit that thesechildren is the decoding of
single words, so putting thesounds together and then you
could break it down into, youknow, knowing the sound of a
(24:27):
letter, blending these soundstogether, decoding these words.
And so that is, you know, thecore problem in kids with
dyslexia diagnosis versus kidswho have a reading comprehension
deficit.
Maybe you know good decodersbut then struggle with
(24:49):
understanding what they read,which goes more into the oral
language piece we discussedearlier.
Lori (24:55):
That's so helpful, nadine, I'm.
I actually work with a littleguy who is in third grade and
does have was diagnosed withdyslexia, and I do notice so
much that he he tends to try topull from his memory and we're
trying to like break that.
(25:15):
So, for example, there was aname on the page the other day
and it said Roy.
And he kept saying Ryan.
And I said can you, let's youknow?
I did kind of what you saidearlier, like let's just cover
the word for a minute.
I'm going to say this say thesounds in the word or or what's
the name.
He said Roy.
(25:36):
I said, well, you keep sayingRyan, what?
What's making you think Ryan?
And what I'm guessing andplease correct me if I'm wrong
is that he has seen the wordRyan in a name, hasn't seen the
word Roy, and it was just movingquickly because he knew it was
a name there's at least a fewletters that are the same.
A couple letters are the sameand just going for it like that
(25:58):
whole word recognition.
And we're trying I'm trying tobreak that because I think his
strategy thus far has been comejust going to memorize the word,
and I covered up another word.
I was like it looks like we'redoing the same thing with this
one.
I was like, but this one youdon't know, I think you just
memorized it a moment ago and itwas in a bug book and it was
the word nymph and I was like Iguarantee he's never seen this
word before.
(26:18):
But he, like seconds, memorizedit and it was like very fool,
kind of fooling if I wasn'tlooking out for it.
Nadine Gaab (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean you know the, the
memorizing word becomeseventually important, right,
because you don't want to soundout every single word for the
rest of your life, but you knowso.
So we are building a biggerside word repertoire.
And I'm not meaning the wordsthat you know you can't decode,
(26:47):
I'm meaning words that you justrecognize because you've seen
them over and over and overagain.
But it is really important thatearly on, you you know decode,
so you can, you know, you know,have an accurate representation
of the word and you can, youknow, decode new words that are
not part of your side words.
So you know I think it's, it's,you know, but it can be a habit
(27:12):
you know to to rely on thisorthographic, you know, mapping
and the object recognition ifyou are struggling with putting
the sounds together.
Lori (27:23):
Yeah, that's helpful.
So I think we do know right.
What we do know is that 95% ofkids can learn how to read, and
that's promising.
But how do we do this, nadine?
How do we ensure that 95% ofkids learn how to read?
Nadine Gaab (27:40):
Yeah.
So I think you know there'smany different factors that come
together.
So I think you know oneimportant piece that we work on
is the early you knowidentification of children at
risk.
So the you know screening andand you know, there has been
more and more legislationrelated to screening and early
(28:03):
identification.
In educational setting we do alot big push-off like moving
this also into communitysettings.
So having pediatricians doscreening, having social workers
be involved in the earlyidentification, having libraries
play a role in this, so it canbe a community effort in
(28:24):
addition to, like, churches, etcetera, in addition to the
school setting.
But you know, we can screen thewhole world.
If we don't do anything inresponse to it, it's kind of
useless, right?
So, first of all, you need toknow how to respond to a
screening result, so you need tobe able to interpret it.
You need to be able to.
(28:45):
You know, though, okay, thisgroup of children or this
individual child needs thefollowing things so that brings
us to teacher training, thatbrings us to, you know, really
good professional development.
And then you know, some kidsmaybe get identified and then
they get maybe, you know, putinto tier two, tier three, and
(29:08):
the tier two and tier threedoesn't align with the tier one
curriculum, and so that leads tovery big confusion, right?
So you get some of the reallygood sounding out words, let's
say in a tier three setting andspecial education, and then
you're going back into theclassroom where there's no
emphasis on this.
So that brings you back andforth, confuses you and almost
(29:31):
like erases what you've done inthe hard work you know on
one-on-one, maybe specialeducation setting.
Melissa (29:38):
I was thinking about that with Lori's student Like I
wonder.
When you were talking, I waslike I wonder what's happening
in school.
Yeah, you know you're trying toteach undo something and
Totally.
Lori (29:47):
Yeah, and our district is uses balance literacy Lucy
Cochens and Fontencent Penel, soI can say that it's very
minimal.
I mean, it is three queuing andI've had to undo that work, but
it is like a constant.
I feel like it's a tug of war,you know.
Melissa (30:04):
Because that's where he's going every day, right,
that's where he's spending moretime.
Lori (30:07):
It's really difficult.
That's such a good point topoint out.
Nadine Gaab (30:10):
Yeah, so you know, and that's not all of it.
I think there's many morefactors you know, making sure we
have unbiased assessments andyou know curricula, making sure
you know we look at these.
You know environmental factors,poverty, the influence of, you
(30:33):
know the home, literacy, theinfluence of neighborhood
factors, stress.
You know parents, maybe, whostruggle with.
You know substance abuse or youknow some.
There's a lot going on in kids'lives.
So seeing the child as a wholeand seeing literacy as a skill
(30:54):
that you know needs to develop,with all of these factors taken
into account, will bring us,hopefully to you know, a better
outcome in long term.
Melissa (31:06):
I have one quick question about the early
screeners too, and this is likea genuine question, because it
seems like it could be a littlebit messy with like where?
Where are they getting screened?
If it's before kindergarten,Like is it?
They don't all have pre-Knecessarily, and if it should be
earlier than pre-K even, wheredoes that happen?
Yeah?
Nadine Gaab (31:28):
yeah.
So we really push that's my oneof my favorite topics right now
we really push for, you know,pediatricians to play a bigger
role, and I can give you a bitof background on this.
So pediatricians actuallyscreen for autism and ADHD,
right, and so it's just standardof like checkups, and so if you
(31:51):
ask them, so why do you screenfor autism and ADHD but you
don't screen for learningdisabilities?
And that's the same fordyscalculia, dysgraphia or any
of them?
They will.
They will often answer you well, because autism and ADHD often
require a medical response toscreening, and so we're, you
know, in the medical field.
(32:11):
So that's within our, you know,area of expertise.
But learning disabilities wouldrequire an educational
intervention or an educationalresponse to screening.
So that's outside of ourexpertise.
So we have nothing to do withthis.
We argue back saying no, no, no,no, because there's so big
implication for mental health.
(32:33):
We see higher rates of anxiety,then depression, and kids with
learning disabilities.
We see, you know, all theseimpacts on economic outcome,
academic outcome, vocationaloutcome, and we know that you
know it, being, you know, lessproficient in reading has
implication for your health,because you can't, maybe, read
(32:53):
the prescription bottle.
You can't, you know, decidebetween two surgeries, if
someone gives you a leaflet todecide which one you want to do,
etc.
Etc.
So we say you know you shouldstart screening.
And then we need to startestablishing some sort of
referral process from thescreening to maybe you know
(33:15):
you're more in depth screening.
Maybe could do like a oneminute screening in a pediatric
practice which could lead to amore in depth screening which
could then relate to somereferral mechanisms.
Or, you know, increasedcommunication between
pediatricians in schools.
We just developed a checklistfor the pediatric practice
because they said, well, even ifwe want to do it, there is no
(33:38):
checklist out there.
So we're, you know, working on,you know, validating this and
seeing how it could beimplemented in, you know,
pediatric settings.
Melissa (33:48):
That's so cool.
That's what I was going to say.
I mean, I have to do them everytime I go to the pediatrician
with my son and it's so quick tojust do it.
You know, yes, I'm seeing thesethings, or no, I'm not seeing
those things.
At least as a first step, itseems like why not?
Yeah?
Nadine Gaab (34:04):
yeah, we also think libraries could play a big role
, right?
So you could have like thesescreening days in libraries,
maybe the first four weekendsbefore you know, in the school
year and then maybe related to,like some you know, offering,
like community groups, playgroups that focus on certain
skills, certain milestones,maybe link it to what kind of
books you would recommend forthis child reading, depending on
(34:28):
which milestones he or she orthey have reached and not
reached yet.
There's many different ways howyou know it could be taking
that the burden could be takingaway from school more.
I don't say they should stopdoing it, but we could do some
of the, you know, quickerprescreenings in community
settings.
Melissa (34:48):
Yeah, and I would say you have more information going
into schools right about astudent than just like you said.
They don't necessarily justshow up as a clean state slate
that you have to figure outwhat's what's happening Exactly.
Yes, I love this.
Nadine Gaab (35:01):
I don't know how we can help, but if we can help,
you know, just talking about itand raising awareness and having
more people say why don't we dothis?
It's a big part of, like youknow, making change and making
sure people you know buy in andhelp with.
(35:23):
You know leading the change.
Lori (35:25):
I love the idea, too, of the community just rallying
around the next generation.
It just feels so important.
Melissa (35:31):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Is there anything else that youwant our listeners to know
about?
Nadine Gaab (35:35):
I guess dyslexia specifically, or we can open it
to anything about learning toread, or I think, you know, it
would be great if we could, youknow, focus more on the mental
health piece.
So I feel like a lot of peoplejust focus on the academics and
we're looking at the do theymake progress in word reading
(35:58):
and do they make progress onthis assessment, etc.
But, but you know, we see thison a daily basis.
Like struggling with learningto read has tremendous
implication for your self esteem, how you see yourself as a
learner, how motivated you areto learn.
(36:18):
We always say that reading is achild's first job, right?
So, oh, you start kindergarten,you're going to learn to read.
Are you going to, you know,read to your little sister?
Oh, soon, you can read thebackup, the cereal box, right?
It's sort of a kid's first job.
Failing at your first job islike it has tremendous,
tremendous implication for yourmental health, your, you know,
(36:41):
your, your self esteem, etc.
So I feel like we, yes, we needto focus on academics, but I
feel like we need to focus evenmore on, you know, the mental
health piece.
And that's where, you know, theprevention comes in.
So if they, you know, if wefind these children early, help
early, you know, the mentalhealth piece is, you know so
(37:04):
much better than you knowdeveloping really good
interventions in sixth gradewhen you know you've already you
know went through five, sixyears of struggling and what
that does to your mental health.
Lori (37:18):
Nadine?
What about the parents who hearfrom schools something like
well, just keep reading to yourchild at home, they'll get it
eventually.
Just keep reading to them, keepdoing it.
What would you say to them?
Nadine Gaab (37:33):
Yeah, yeah, so we know that home literacy plays a
role.
So it's so, we're not saying itdoesn't play a role at all.
So it is important to, like youknow, read to your child early,
have a variety of books fromthe library or, you know, in
your environment, point outletters when you go grocery
shopping.
You know these kinds of things.
(37:55):
But actually, if you look at,you know, the factors predicting
reading outcome, home literacydoes predict a little bit, but
not like a big portion of it.
And so you know, yes, you cansee reading disabilities in kids
who have really strong homeliteracy environments and in
(38:16):
kids who don't have strongliteracy environments.
So so, you know, just readingto your child and just putting
them, you know, emerged into arich literacy environment
doesn't automatically make thema reader.
It needs, like, explicitinstruction and it needs, you
know, explicit, you know,instruction that sometimes needs
(38:39):
to look a little bit moredifferent in terms of frequency,
intensity, intensity, but also,you know, rigorous, following
the.
You know the, you knowstructured, you know steps, and
so I think, you know, notfeeling guilty, would I tell
(38:59):
them, and you know, just makingsure that the child is, you know
, still enjoying books andliteracy and still enjoying, you
know, listening to thesewonderful stories which will
enhance their vocabulary, whichwill enhance their number of
complex sentences here.
And you know podcasts can play areally big role here as well.
(39:22):
I was just talking to a mom whowas really worried about, you
know, the lower vocabulary inher son because of the reading
piece and you know I asked herwhat is your son interested in?
And she said all he'sinterested in is these electric
cars.
(39:42):
And so I'm like find a podcast.
And so now he's the expert andit's like really boosted his
self-esteem because he knowseverything about electric cars,
wants to become a mechanicalengineer.
It's really motivated and hasreally increased vocabulary and,
you know, complex listeningcomprehension pieces through a
(40:03):
podcast.
So I feel like you know you can, you know, just keep doing more
of the good stuff and try tolike keep the love of reading in
any form or the love oflistening to stories.
Lori (40:19):
Yeah, that's helpful, thank you, and such practical
advice.
Well, thank you so much.
This is such a treat, and wecan't wait to hear or see or
watch something with you again.
It's just you're so captivatingand you make things really easy
to understand.
So thank you for being here andthank you for all that you do.
Nadine Gaab (40:40):
Yeah, thank you for inviting me, it was fun.
Lori (40:44):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy Lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom and to keep
learning together.
Melissa (40:54):
join the Melissa and Lori Love Literacy Podcast
Facebook group and be sure tofollow us on Instagram and
Twitter.
Lori (41:02):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (41:12):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (41:24):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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