August 30, 2024 • 43 mins
Lindsay Kemeny discusses her book 7 Mighty Moves and the importance of teaching literacy effectively. The conversation covers the development of the 7 moves, which focus on phonemic awareness, word recognition, fluency, vocabulary, and comprehension. Lindsay emphasizes the need for explicit and systematic instruction, the use of decodable texts, and the importance of teaching sight words with phonics skills. She also shares practical strategies for improving fluency, such as partner reading and paragraph shrinking. She explains how this routine helped improve students' reading fluency and comprehension. Lindsay also emphasizes the importance of embracing vocabulary and background knowledge in reading instruction.
Resources
- 7 Mighty Moves (book) by Lindsay Kemeny
- Teaching with Lindsay Kemeny on Facebook
- Literacy Talks podcast
- Lindsay's website
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:01):
Everyone is talking about the science of reading,
and we know that it can feeloverwhelming.
There's a lot of talk aboutwhat the research says, which is
great, but we also need to findpractical ways to incorporate
research-backed strategies intoinstruction.
Lori (00:15):
That is so true, melissa.
Well, I stumbled upon this bookthat I happened to fall in love
with, by Lindsay Kemeny.
It's called Seven Mighty Moves,and she breaks down the signs
of reading into seven actionablestrategies, specifically for K3
reading.
Melissa (00:30):
Yeah, seriously this book is a game changer, and
Lindsay doesn't just throwresearch at you.
She gives insights into how shehas successfully implemented
these strategies in her ownclassroom.
Yep, even with videos.
Lori (00:42):
In this episode, you'll hear from Lindsay all about her
seven mighty moves and somepractical advice backed by
research.
Trust me, after listening toLindsay, you'll feel ready and
inspired to transform yourreading instruction.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
(01:04):
know you do too.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (01:06):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
We realized there was so muchmore to learn about how to teach
reading and writing.
Lori (01:22):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi everyone, we are here withone of our best teacher, friends
and the author of Seven MightyMoves, lindsay Kemeny.
She's been on the podcastbefore, in episodes 80 and 98.
We're so glad that she's backtoday to talk about her very
popular book.
It's part of Scholastic'sScience of Reading and Practice
series and just the same seriesthat our book is going to be in
(01:44):
the Literacy 50.
So we're super excited to haveyou here today, lindsay.
Lindsay Kemeny (01:48):
Thank you, it's great to be back.
I love both of you and I'mexcited to be on your podcast
again.
Lori (01:55):
So the first five moves in your book focus on phonemic
awareness and word recognition,while the final two focus on
fluency, vocabulary andcomprehension.
So I'd like to start byfocusing on the first five.
As a group, we know these arereally really important
foundational components toreading.
So let's jump into these movesAll right.
(02:15):
Move one Teach phonemicawareness with intention.
Move two Teach phonicsexplicitly and systematically.
Move three Teach decodingstrategies, not queuing
strategies.
Move four use decodable textsinstead of predictable texts
with beginning readers.
Move five embrace a betterapproach to teaching sight words
.
So the floor is yours.
(02:35):
What's important to take awayfrom these five?
Lindsay Kemeny (02:37):
Oh, it's hard because you know I could, I
could go, you know, an hour atleast on each one.
If you had asked me if I wasteaching phonics before, I would
have been like yes, and kind ofoffended if you were implying
that I wasn't teaching phonics.
But when I think back on what Iwas doing before, I was more
facilitating phonics activitiesversus explicitly and
(03:01):
systematically teaching them,like I didn't even have a scope
and sequence of phonics skillsto follow.
So that was just a huge changein my classroom is to say, okay,
I don't want that Swiss cheeseeffect in my students' knowledge
, right, I need to follow ascope and sequence and teach
them the basics of the Englishcode, whereas before I was
(03:24):
really kind of reactive,whatever they missed in a when
they were reading, then I waslike I guess I'll teach that or
point it out.
And sometimes there's this ideathat explicit instruction is
like very serious teacherlecturing, very you know, drill
and kill and dry, and thatcouldn't be further from the
(03:47):
truth.
And so if you came to myclassroom because I am a teacher
, if you came, you would seeit's so interactive.
I do something, they dosomething, I say something, they
say something, I read something.
They read something, I writesomething.
They write something.
Right I'm channeling AnitaArcher here but in an explicit,
systematic lesson there are alot of opportunities to respond,
(04:10):
and that's something that Ithink is really important to
remember and to try to increasethe amount of practice students
are getting, and I'm alwaysthinking about that throughout
the day how much are my studentsdoing?
How can I increase theseopportunities of practice for
them?
So that's huge.
Phenemic awareness is huge.
(04:31):
I wasn't even teaching itbefore.
I didn't even know it was athing, and that's an area where
I had to make a few shifts.
As my learning, you know,increased, as my learning, you
know, increased.
Decoding strategies instead ofqueuing strategies was a huge
(04:52):
one, and it's when I talk aboutit I often tell teachers like,
don't shoot the messenger.
I know this one is hard, but Ihad to completely abandon what
we call the three queuingstrategies, had to completely
abandon what we call the threequeuing strategies, and I mean I
just it's hard because I didthese and it's this idea that
(05:13):
readers use various cues tofigure out the words as they're
reading, and so you're coachingthem by saying look at the
picture, does that give you aclue?
Look at the first letter, readthe rest of the sentence, figure
out.
You know what the word is.
And when you take a step backand think about it, these are
(05:34):
guessing strategies, notdecoding strategies.
And I saw this with my sonbecause before he had the skills
, I mean, he would guess, guess,guess, guess, guess.
And you see this with students,even if you haven't taught them
they, you know they come to aword that looks difficult for
them and they'll just guessautomatically.
And so a huge change has beento really help my students, like
(05:59):
I need to help them learn totrust the letters and really
apply the phonics skills I'mteaching them.
And so the other, like usingdecodable texts, which is part
of move four for beginningreaders, that's going to help
this process.
So you know there's someoverlap in the moves, but and
(06:21):
then I guess I just want to saywhile I'm talking about this, we
don't want to overcorrect, andit doesn't mean we only use
decodables, and we'll probablytalk about this when we talk
about the other moves.
It doesn't mean that sometimespeople think now, context, like
you never refer to context andit's a bad thing, but you still
(06:42):
use context to understand themeaning of the words and what's
happening in the story.
You use pictures to add to yourcomprehension of the story.
But when we're saying not touse context or pictures, what we
mean is to decode a word.
You decode the word first andthen context will help.
(07:03):
You know, is that read or read?
Is that wind or wind?
Melissa (07:07):
I was going to ask that same question.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause we've hit that on a
couple other podcast episodeswhere we talked about just that,
where you know if they'redecoding a word and it doesn't
quite sound right to them, youknow, because maybe it can be
pronounced in a few differentways that's the time when you're
like oh well, look at thepicture.
Does you know it?
(07:27):
Does a different word makesense here?
That's close to what you justdecoded, but it's the after that
you're talking about, right?
Lindsay Kemeny (07:35):
Yeah, and the same with reading the rest of
the sentence.
Right, like reading the rest ofthe sentence to see oh, was it
read or read which one makessense?
Lori (07:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that I was going to say we've talked
about it before, melissa, butthat's that set for variability,
where readers have the abilityto try different sounds that
they know for the spellings thatthey see.
Lindsay Kemeny (07:55):
Yep, that mispronunciation correction,
right, and so they.
They're going to read it oneway and that might not make
sense, but they're like okay,many, oh many.
That sounds like many, butthey've decoded it first.
Lori (08:09):
I always think the really important thing there, too, is
for them to know that it's notright, if anything, like I
always used to praise studentsfor being like oh my God, like I
remember being in second gradeand being like, oh my gosh, you
knew when you didn't know thatthat is important, because what
always scared me were the kidswho just kept going, and that is
terrifying, cause they're likeI'm like you have either have no
(08:31):
idea or just don't want tobecause it's such a tedious task
, right, so we have to buildthat stamina muscle to go back
and it's it's hard, and so it'skind of like encouraging
students to know when they don'tknow, like I kind of I love
thinking about that andencouraging kids to do that, and
(08:52):
when they just keep on goinglike that, I mean they're just
not attending to the meaning atall, right, and so, yeah, you
want to kind of slow them downand make sure.
Lindsay Kemeny (09:02):
Oh, that didn't make sense, you've got to go
back and read that again.
Melissa (09:06):
Do you want to touch on the sight words real quick
before we move on?
Lindsay Kemeny (09:10):
Yeah, so before you know, what I often well I
think a lot of us do, is justthink a sight word is a word
that can't be sounded out and wejust have to memorize them,
right, like memorize them as awhole, like as a whole visual
unit.
And so that's really what I did.
And really, when I think back,I didn't teach them, I assigned
(09:32):
them and I just expected them tolearn them.
And there's a limit to how manywords we can memorize as a
whole.
There's a limit.
And you have some students thatare very good at memorizing and
they want to kind of bypass thestep of phonemic awareness, like
(09:52):
that might be a deficiency thatthey have.
And when you're matching thesounds you hear with the letters
, you see that is using phonemicawareness.
And when you're just memorizingwords as a whole, you're just
skipping that whole step.
And so I talked to someone asan adult who struggled learning
to read when he was young andhe's like that's what I did, I
(10:14):
just memorized words, I justmemorized words I don't know,
and he wasn't making aconnection.
But we know that in order forthose words to be stored in
memory, they've got to connectthe letters they see with the
sounds they hear, with themeaning of the word, right,
those three things have tohappen so that they can retrieve
(10:38):
that word effortlessly in thefuture, and that's what we want.
So I love the phrase every wordwants to be a sight word.
When it grows up, by JanWazowicz, I think, is the first
one that said that, and it'sjust.
You know, it's just kind ofchanged, like we want every word
to be orthographically mapped,we want every word to be
(11:00):
recognized instantly, but thatdoesn't mean we can skip steps.
I mean, students could do thatand they could just memorize
words as a whole, but thenthey're going to reach a limit
and not be able to memorizeanymore and so we need to attend
to the sounds, the letters andthe meaning of the words.
So that just really changedwhat I do.
(11:20):
And now I'm like, oh, I have toteach a word, I can't just
assign them words.
Lori (11:29):
I love that.
I also love very practicallythinking about how that spills
over into spelling and how,hopefully, spelling has changed
since I went to school to alignwith phonics and what we're
teaching and the words thatwe're teaching.
So I love thinking about thattoo, and that's one of our
favorite quotes Every word wantsto be a sight word too.
Lindsay Kemeny (11:47):
And you'll see, like if you have a book, you
know the book.
I share my favorite kind ofways, like I'll break down the
research and then I'll justshare here's my favorite ways to
work on this thing, or this iswhat I do in my classroom, just
to share.
And so in the, in that chapter,I'll share.
Okay, this is what I do now.
This is how I teach.
(12:07):
Quote unquote sight words,right?
Melissa (12:09):
So yeah, and there's links to videos of you too.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:13):
Yes, it was so scary doing because, okay, I
mean, you guys know, justputting a book out there that's
scary enough, right, Like you're.
Just, you're opening yourselfup to criticism and you put all
this work into something andthen anyone could say anything,
Right, and we know thatsometimes we tend to be really
judgmental.
And then, you know, adding thevideos is just another layer of
(12:37):
that where I'm like, look, I'mnot perfect, but I know that, no
matter what, when you'rewatching someone teach, it's a
learning opportunity, even ifyou see not as great things and
things you would change, or ifyou see great things.
Either way it's learning, andso I really hope that that's
helpful for teachers.
(12:57):
That was my desire, but it addsanother level of ah, eek, you
know scary, totallyunderstandable.
Melissa (13:05):
I've learned from your videos.
I hope that's helpful.
I mean I can even specificallysay like seeing how you use a
sound wall as a tool and how youquickly like move from phonemic
awareness to connecting it tothe letters so quickly with your
kids and it's interactive thewhole time.
I've learned a ton fromwatching you.
Oh, thank you.
Lindsay Kemeny (13:22):
That's so nice.
Thank, I've learned a ton fromwatching you.
Oh, thank you, that's so nice.
Thank you, it was fun.
It was fun and literally thosevideos were all recorded by me
and my phone.
I would just set it up and hitrecord and go around and teach
the lesson and go back over andstop and then send it to
Scholastic.
It's all very real life In fact.
(13:43):
Just a funny little story isone of the okay.
One time when I was recordingfor the book, I got really fancy
and I borrowed my husband'sphone and so I had two phones
going, so we had two differentangles and then Scholastic was
kind of piecing them togetherand they like I just felt like
(14:03):
one transition was really kindof odd.
And I was.
I was asking them you know, canwe, can we keep it on this
camera angle for a minute sothey can see me get started
there, and then we'll switch.
And they were like, well, oneof the students kept picking her
nose and I'm trying to editaround there and I'm like that
is just OK.
So it's just very real life.
(14:24):
This is my classroom.
Lori (14:27):
Oh my gosh, I hope you have a lot of like Lysol wipes.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:32):
Yeah, oh, for sure, I think every teacher does
.
It's like the number one schoolsupply.
Melissa (14:39):
You know, on the school supply list, All right, I think
we're going to move into thelast two moves and we're going
to spend a little time with eachone of them, okay, so moving on
to move six is all aboutfluency, and we actually have a
whole podcast with you aboutfluency as well.
I know that was a while ago.
It was a while ago, but it'spacked full of great information
(15:00):
.
But I love that this talksabout.
You know, like you can't justexpect fluency to improve on its
own.
You can't just expect it to besomething that kids get better
at just because they're inschool and reading with you.
Like it has to be intentional.
So you obviously suggest givingstudents really meaningful
practice opportunities toimprove their fluency.
Wondering if you want to sharesome of those practical ideas
(15:22):
with our listeners now, maybegive a little background first
and then share those practicalideas with our listeners now,
Maybe give a little backgroundfirst and then share those
practical ideas.
Lindsay Kemeny (15:28):
Yes.
So I love and I'm just tryingto I think this is like Lane and
Pullen quote, but they saylarge amounts of carefully
orchestrated reading practiceand I love those words.
And when we're thinking aboutfluency, this is really I think
about this a lot carefullyorchestrating times and
(15:50):
opportunities for students topractice their reading fluency.
Because, like you said, melissa, it's not just going to get
better on its own necessarily Ifwe just say, okay, we're going
to give lots of time for silentreading and students will get
better.
But if there's a student thathas a fluency weakness, they're
(16:11):
not going to get better.
If left to read silently, thatproblem just becomes inaudible.
And Dr Seidenberg talks aboutthat.
So, yes, lots and lots ofopportunities to read out loud,
with the opportunity forfeedback, also thinking about
how fluency develops inprogressions.
So sometimes we might think, ohwell, the upper grade teachers
(16:33):
will worry about fluency, but itstarts at the letter level and
the letter pattern level.
We want to develop theautomaticity and Dr Hasbrook
John Hasbrook says thatautomaticity is the heart and
soul of fluency.
And when you think of thosecomponents of fluency, that
(16:54):
accuracy, rate and prosody, thenyou have the accuracy and rate
and those combined areautomaticity, the accuracy and
the rate.
So we're working on that at theletter-letter pattern level and
then at the word level and thenat the phrase-sentence-passage
level.
So you know, just even juststarting in kindergarten, where
(17:17):
you're helping them get reallyautomatic with recognizing those
letter sounds, that's going tohelp them.
At the word level.
You're going to take thosephonics skills that you're
teaching and put them in wordsto help them.
So, like in my phonics lessons,I will make little word lists.
So if we just learned like whatdid we do?
(17:38):
A-i and A-Y, then I'm going tohave words with those for them
to practice and then we're goingto get into the passages and
phrases as well.
So there's a lot we can do.
Melissa (17:51):
All right, Lindsay, I'm wondering about one specific
thing that you mentioned in thechapter and you mentioned on our
last podcast, which isparagraph shrinking.
So I'm wondering if you want totalk a little bit more about
what that means, and I'd beinterested to.
Is that something you do withyour first graders?
What does it look like withfirst graders?
Lindsay Kemeny (18:14):
So the whole protocol is called partner
reading, paragraph shrinking,and I learned about this from Dr
Matt Burns and it's kind of apared down version of PALS,
p-a-l-s.
And what happened is I wasteaching second grade at the
time and I was really kind ofalarmed because it's the
beginning of the year and overhalf of my students are below
the benchmark for words correctper minute.
And I just thought, oh, likewhat do you do when it when it
(18:38):
seems like half your class needsintervention, you know?
And I just thought, well, I'velearned a lot about the science
of reading and I've done allthese things, so game on, here
we go.
And so two weeks later I go toprogress monitor my students and
our class median was 50 wordscorrect per minute and the
(19:00):
benchmarks 52, right, so we werebelow.
And so I do just all mybusiness as usual.
Two weeks later, I progressmonitor everyone and our class
median rose to 51.
So I'm like, well, that's notvery good.
What am I going to do?
(19:23):
Webinar that Patton was hostingwith Dr Matt Burns, the topic
was class-wide interventions forreading and math and I was just
thinking a class-wideintervention.
Yeah, that's exactly what Ineed.
I need something I can do forthe whole class.
I need an intervention for thewhole class.
(19:43):
So I started and it'sevidence-based, it's designed
for grades two through eight andDr Burns says it's two weeks.
It's like it's 20 minutes a dayfor two weeks.
So I really wasn't expecting toleave that presentation with
(20:05):
something I could do right away.
But I did and so two weekslater I progress monitor my
class.
Remember our class median wasat 51.
Two weeks later it was 64 wordscorrect per minute.
Melissa (20:20):
So two weeks huge and 20 minutes a day yeah, 20
minutes for two weeks.
Lindsay Kemeny (20:26):
That's it.
Lori (20:27):
So I feel like it would be awesome if you explained to our
listeners like what isparagraph shrinking?
Partner reading routine.
Did I get it right?
And I usually just call itparagraph shrinking and don't
say the rest.
Lindsay Kemeny (20:39):
Cause you could just do paragraph shrinking
anytime, Right?
So he's doing partner.
I just go, I use PRPS and so,like in my notes or in my
planner, I'll put PRPS, partnerreading, paragraph shrinking,
yeah.
And and let me just say you cando this so you can be two weeks
and done or you can continue todo it.
I liked it so I continue to doit, but I just not necessarily
(21:01):
every day, but I would do it,you know, maybe two or three
times a week, and then sometimesI'd be like, okay, now the next
two weeks we're going to do it,and so I just want to share
that.
The middle of the year, secondgrade, the benchmark is 72 and
my class median was 90 wordscorrect per minute.
And by the end of the year, thebenchmark for second grade is
(21:22):
87 words correct per minute andmy class the median was 118
words correct per minute.
So it was just like whoa, Imean, and what I love about it,
and you'll see, is it's just anopportunity for practice.
It's not like I'm saying readfaster, or like timing them and
putting pressure on, it's justan opportunity for practice.
(21:44):
So what students do is you putthem in intentional partnerships
and then the stronger readergoes first.
That's reader one, and theyread for five minutes.
Then reader two reads for fiveminutes, and then reader one.
It's back to reader one and nowthey read for five minutes, but
(22:04):
they stop to shrink everyparagraph as they read.
So they're summarizing everyparagraph.
And then reader two reads forfive minutes, stopping to shrink
every paragraph, and when youparagraph shrink, they read a
paragraph and then they answerthe questions what's the most
(22:25):
important, who or what?
Tell the most important thingabout the who or what and then
say the main idea in 10 words orless.
So they're taking those thingsthey just said and then trying
to shrink it to just 10 words.
So they just really kind of getthe gist of the paragraph.
Melissa (22:41):
Lindsay, is partner two reading the same text as
partner one, or do they keepreading?
Lindsay Kemeny (22:48):
Yeah, this is so good, and whenever I do
presentations on this, like I gothrough this and then still
it's it can be a littleconfusing at first.
So they're, they both have thesame texts in front of them and
they when reader one is reading.
So they're, they're reading thesame thing, and Dr Burns in the
research study says it needs tobe on the weaker partner's
(23:11):
reading level, which we knowreading levels.
That's a little arbitrary andyou can be kind of flexible with
that, but generally you wantsomething that the weaker reader
can be successful with.
And does that answer yourquestion, or do you want me to
go in more detail on that?
Melissa (23:28):
No, just clarifying.
So it just means that, like thesecond reader is repeating what
the first reader, Okay, yeah,and the first half, yes.
Lindsay Kemeny (23:36):
So the first, so the reader one reads five
minutes, reader two goes back tothe beginning and starts where
reader one had started andreading for five minutes.
So yes, it's like they got apassage preview right.
They got some modeling, whichwe know from research that
that's helpful too.
But then the second half.
So reader one will then startwherever reader two left off and
(23:58):
they're going to be stopping toparagraph shrink.
And then reader two is going tocontinue wherever reader one
left off on that last littlepart and be paragraph shrinking.
So that part may or might maynot have been read to them.
Lori (24:12):
So do you want to make sure that what they are reading
is long enough for them to forfor the full 20 minutes, for
them to not finish it beforethat 20 minutes, or would they
just go back and reread, likeI'm just like let's get nitty
gritty here.
I have a lot of logisticalquestions.
Lindsay Kemeny (24:28):
I have them go on to the next passage.
So I have I put in theirfolders like maybe six to eight
passages, okay, and so what I dois I use ReadWorks.
Readworks is free and you canget a lot of passages on the
same topic.
That's going to be so great,because we're going to talk in a
(24:50):
minute about that wide readingright and multiple texts on the
same topic is great for buildingtheir knowledge.
They're going to see severalvocabulary words throughout
those texts, which is going tobe great.
So when they finish one text,they just go to the next one and
(25:10):
then I have, um, you know, Ijust staple those together and
they have, like you know, six toeight passages and if they
happened to get through them all, they would just start at the
beginning again.
Um, it, dr Burns and hisresearch studies.
They would have just like aloose leaf um paper and they
would put it behind and theywouldn't read them again.
(25:32):
But for me in my class I knew Icouldn't be printing off all of
that every day, and so I wouldprint off for the week and then
I would print off new passagesfor the next week and then what
I would do is like um, monday orTuesday we might start with the
first passage.
Maybe on Wednesday I'll saylet's start with the second or
the third passage, becausesometimes they don't get far
(25:54):
enough along because they'restarting you know they're
stopping to shrink everyparagraph.
Hopefully that makes sense.
But it is in this chapter too.
It's described in this chapterand I have QR codes in there
with handouts to help you and Ihave a whole presentation on
there with handouts to help youand, um, and there's a.
I have a whole presentation onthis and that's linked in the
book too, if you wanted to watchthe whole presentation for the
(26:14):
reader, for the listeners outthere.
And I forgot to mention sobecause someone asked me about
first grade.
So it is designed secondthrough eighth grade, but now
I'm in first grade and I I do itin first grade.
But what I do is I wait untilJanuary to start.
My last year's class I startedin February.
(26:35):
They just need a little moretime.
This year's class was ready inJanuary to start and I started
everyone in decodables first,and now I'm transitioning Um, so
when they're ready, Itransition them into the regular
ReadWorks passages.
There are ReadWorks decodablepassages too, which is nice, um,
(26:57):
so that's great because I canhave some students in regular
passages and some students inthe decodables, but that they're
on the same topic, which iskind of nice, and and nobody
really knows or realizes thatthey're in different.
You know they have differentdifficulty levels.
I can't talk, you know, withtheir passages that the students
don't really notice.
Lori (27:18):
Yeah, well, and then it's all in service of building that
vocabulary and backgroundknowledge, and I assume maybe it
might connect to something elsethat you're learning about, or
maybe like something specialthat your class has chosen to
learn about.
Is that right?
Lindsay Kemeny (27:31):
Yeah, it doesn't have to, because it can be
addition, in addition to whatyou're already teaching in
science or in social studies,but you can also go right along
with it.
In fact, one of the studiesthat Dr Burns talks about it was
upper grade teachers, and theywere saying we just don't have
time to do this.
And so they?
Well, they did it as part oftheir science and they used, you
know, science topics, and notonly did their reading improve,
(27:54):
but their science scoresimproved too, so that was-.
Lori (27:58):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing .
Yeah, we talked with Dr Branson.
Now you're making me want totalk with him again about this
too.
Lindsay Kemeny (28:05):
He's a wealth of knowledge.
I just really admire him andjust the fact that he I just
feel like he's always reallytrying to help us teachers and I
really appreciate that, likeall his advice.
Lori (28:17):
Yeah, all right.
Well, I feel like we're kind ofgetting into some background
knowledge stuff now, so I'd loveto transition to move seven.
It's all about embracingvocabulary and background
knowledge.
Can you share some ideas aboutwhat teachers can do to make
this move?
Lindsay Kemeny (28:33):
Yeah, so you know and this was kind of just a
mistake I was doing before Ireally wasn't considering how
important background knowledgeand vocabulary are to reading
comprehension.
But they play a huge role andthere's a lot of things we can
do here.
Don't neglect your read aloudsand keep doing those rich read
(28:53):
alouds for students.
I mean they can they have theability to listen and hear.
You know texts that are abovetheir.
You know what they can read andso they can learn you know
sophisticated ideas and beexposed to more vocabulary,
words and rich ideas indifferent situations than
they're used to, and I thinkthere's so many benefits to
(29:14):
those read alouds.
Melissa (29:16):
When I hear people say that read alouds are like, not
aligned to the science ofreading, oh my, God, I just I'm
like who is saying this?
Lindsay Kemeny (29:26):
I haven't heard that.
That's really interesting.
Melissa (29:29):
But it's the people who like focus on the just the like
.
It's just phonics.
Lindsay Kemeny (29:33):
Yeah, and usually I feel like they have an
agenda, so yeah, so let's putit like let's put a pin in that
the science of reading includesgreat read-alouds and rich
discussion, and it's going tobuild oral language.
Lots of benefits 100%.
Lori (29:55):
Is there anything that, as you transitioned to Move7, that
you did that made an especiallybig impact on your students in
building their knowledge?
Lindsay Kemeny (30:06):
in building their knowledge.
Oh, that's so.
I don't to choose somethingover the others, I don't know
Definitely.
Just I think, thinking aboutthe fact that, hey, we want to
build knowledge as we're reading, and so when I have students in
(30:26):
complex text, I really we needto scaffold them into complex
text.
So thinking of things that theycan do, things I can do before
they're reading, to help themunderstand the text that we're
going to read together, so I canpre-teach some vocabulary words
or some phrases that might be alittle unusual.
(30:46):
For example, we were reading abook on Thomas Edison and it had
a phrase that was as a result,as a result and my first graders
probably don't use thatlanguage, as a result, and so
they're going to see that in thetext we're going to read, and
so that might be, here's alittle phrase and I'm going to
pull that out and maybe thesentence before it and with that
(31:10):
to kind of explain look, thisis what as a result means and
this is what it's saying, andwe'll see this in our text.
And I think another way to kindof scaffold is giving them a
purpose.
Okay, we're going to read.
You're going to read somethingreally interesting that Tom
Edison did when he was youngerto solve a problem that he had.
(31:32):
Let's see what that is, or youknow, whatever, and just kind of
giving them a purpose,pre-teaching vocabulary and
those phrases and then writingabout what we're reading, and
that's just another way todeepen our knowledge.
So, oh, lori, I'm sorry, youasked me one thing and then I
kind of like a few things, andthen I'm thinking of more and
(31:53):
I'm like I don't know, it's hardto pick one.
Lori (31:58):
What did you notice in your students writing as you
transitioned to having themwrite about what they were
reading?
Lindsay Kemeny (32:04):
You know, anytime I mean their writing
isn't going to improve, but alsotheir the knowledge of the
topic.
Because when you write aboutsomething and you guys know,
because you just wrote a bookwhen you write about something
you've really got to thinkthrough it and three, think
through all different sides ofit, right, and you understand it
(32:25):
so much better in the processof writing about it.
And so our students willexperience that too.
So we can read something andthen we're going to write about
something, but I mean it just itforces them to think about what
they've learned in, you know,deeper ways.
(32:46):
We need to be able to say it ifwe're going to write it, and one
of the ideas I share in thischapter in the book is keyword
outlines, where you read thetext and then you pull out, like
you look at the first sentence,you pull out three words, the
three most important words ofthat sentence, and the students
(33:07):
write it on their outline.
And then they go to the nextsentence and then they pull out
three key words and put it onthe outline, right, then we're
going to put that source textaway and then they're just going
to have their outline that theywrote with the keywords on them
, and we're going to practiceturning each one of those into a
sentence.
Now it's going to be differentfrom the text because we put the
(33:28):
text away, but this is also agreat sentence building activity
for each one.
But then also you're putting itall together in a paragraph and
so I'll have my students andpartners practice speaking and
saying that before they write it, and I learned about that from
the Institute for Excellence inWriting and it's a great
(33:49):
activity.
Lori (33:51):
That's awesome.
I love anytime students cantalk before they write and that
is a great teacher's tip andstrategy right there, the
building sentences.
So thank you for that.
Melissa (34:02):
Lindsay, I'm wondering if we can talk really quickly
about types of texts, because Iheard you mention decodable
texts, complex texts, read aloudtexts, and when we're thinking
about improving comprehensionand vocabulary, I feel like the
text really matters.
So can you talk a little bitabout, especially in that K2
world, what kinds of texts we'retalking about using?
Lindsay Kemeny (34:22):
I am glad you asked this question because it's
something I'm really concernedabout that sometimes we tend to
overcorrect a little bit and sowe talk a lot about using
decodable texts for beginningreaders.
I love decodable texts, butthen sometimes people
overcorrect and think we onlyuse decodables and that's just
(34:42):
not the case.
We need a variety of texts.
But the question is kind ofwhen and how much, and so when
students are reading so I'mteaching first grade so students
at the beginning of the yearthey all start in decodable
texts and that's what they'rereading like in small group.
(35:03):
But I'm still reading aloud tothem and we're also reading more
quote unquote complex textsbecause it's complex for them in
our whole group.
Now at the beginning of theyear in first grade the whole
group is still decodable andthen throughout the year it gets
(35:23):
harder.
So right now, like in thespring, we're recording this.
In the spring this probablyhasn't been released, but in the
spring.
Now I have, you know, our wholegroup.
Complex text is regular text.
Like I was just talking aboutthat Thomas Edison book.
It's just a regular text.
(35:44):
It's not decodable.
In small group I have somestudents that are in decodables
and have others that are inregular texts.
I like to transition studentsfrom highly decodable texts to
lower decodability texts.
So you guys know I love geodes.
(36:06):
Those are less decodable, infact now correct me if I'm wrong
I think they call themreadables.
Now I love using like I'llstart the year everyone in
highly decodable and then I'mgoing to transition students
into deodes and they're doinggreat with those and I know, hey
, they're going to be ready forregular texts.
(36:27):
So it's it's kind of acontinuum, but then all along.
So even right now we have thiscomplex text we're reading as a
group.
Students are reading differentthings in small group and I'm
still doing read aloud to themwith, you know, texts that are
harder than what they could readby themselves.
(36:47):
So that's going to be so.
I guess I just it doesn't meanso people are.
Sometimes people are sayingthings about leveled books, like
they're getting rid of alltheir leveled books, and to me
any book can be leveled, so likethey're getting rid of all
their leveled books, and to meany book can be leveled, so
that's a huge problem.
I replace the predictablerepetitive texts, those very
(37:11):
beginning levels, so like it'susually those guided reading
levels A through D.
That's when I would use that's.
You know I'm using decodablesthere instead.
I'm not going to get rid of allmy other texts because I have
to transition students into them.
So and what's tricky about itis it's not the same for every
student.
I think a lot of students areready to transition the middle
(37:33):
of first grade, but not everyoneCan I?
Lori (37:36):
I'm going to ask another nuanced question about your
whole group text.
So can you walk through whatthat looks like?
Can you walk through how muchof it you're reading aloud, how
much students are reading aloud,and maybe just an example, like
you said, the Thomas Edisontext like is it first grade-ish?
Yeah, I think it's first grade,okay, okay.
Lindsay Kemeny (37:58):
First grade-ish.
I like that, yeah.
So before we read, we're goingto, I'm going to pre-teach any
vocabulary words that they'regoing to need for that text, and
maybe it's not a vocabularyword but just it's.
It's going to be tricky forthem to read and I'm going to
pull out some of those to talkabout phrases Like I talked
about.
That as a result, you know, andyou're going to, and I will
(38:20):
need to prep them with any if Ifeel like there's any background
knowledge that they need inorder to access that text.
And then initially, what I dois I will read the text to them.
A lot of times we do.
I mean, I call it echo reading,but echo reading you might
(38:41):
consider a little shorter.
So I am going to read a pageand the page is maybe a
paragraph or two.
I'm going to read the page andthe students read the page
Corally together, and then we goto the next page.
I read it and then they read it, and we're going to stop and
talk whenever you know we fail,and then go to the next one.
I read a page, they read thesame page.
(39:02):
So they're getting a model, I'mmodeling it for them and then
they're reading it.
Sometimes they can do it bythemselves, and sometimes I have
my voice with them so that theycan stay with me.
And then the same text that Iwill have them partner read it,
and when they're in theirpartners, I have them do it the
same way where they're in theseintentional partnerships, and
(39:23):
the stronger reader will readthe page and then the weaker
partner is going to read thesame page and then they go to
the next one and the strongerreader does it and the weaker
reader does it, and the wholetime they're doing that I'm
walking around to help and if Ineed, I can create a triad, a
threesome.
If I have one student whereit's really difficult for them,
(39:45):
I'm going to pair them withsomeone else and they're going
to be reading it at the sametime and then they have the
stronger model with them.
Does that make sense?
So we do a lot of that and thenwe'll write about what we read
afterwards.
Lori (39:58):
That's awesome.
Okay, thank you.
I appreciate that specificity.
Lindsay Kemeny (40:03):
Yeah, so it's just thinking about that complex
text.
Think of modeling the reading,echo reading, choral reading and
partner reading.
Those are all kind of thedifferent ways that you can help
them access the text and write.
The model reading is going togive them the most.
You're doing most of the work.
Versus partner reading, nowyou've kind of it's a little
(40:25):
more of an I do right, goingfrom I do, I mean, you do, I do,
we do, you do.
Lori (40:31):
All right.
So, lindsay, now we can kind ofthink about reflect on our
conversation today.
Is there anything that youdidn't share, that you would
like to share about your book?
Is there anything that youdidn't?
Lindsay Kemeny (40:41):
share that you would like to share about your
book.
I will think about somethingtonight, probably when I'm
laying in bed and I'll be likedang it.
I wish I would have said that,but I guess I just want to say
I've just been really honoredbecause I told you I was so
scared putting it out in theworld, and I think I think when
(41:02):
Scholastic first was like hey,it's a yes, we're going to do
this, I was like they were likeyou should be really excited,
because my reaction was kind oflike, oh my gosh, I'm so scared.
And so I have just beenoverjoyed and just so appreciate
just the kindness and peoplereaching out and sharing with me
(41:25):
how it's helped them and howit's changed what they've
they're doing or how theyappreciate you know one thing or
the other, and it's just meantso much to me and so I'm just,
I'm just really grateful andgrateful.
I had the opportunity and Idon't think I'm perfect, and so
I just appreciate that peoplehave been so kind.
Melissa (41:45):
Well, we thank you for being so vulnerable and putting
it out there, because I've seenso so many people who have just
been excited about the work youput out and, like you said,
really helped them in their ownclassroom.
So thank you for that.
I'll just share real quick.
I mean, obviously you can orderthis on Amazon Scholastic.
They can find it there.
(42:05):
Is there anything else you wantto share?
Lindsay, about where they canconnect with you?
Lindsay Kemeny (42:10):
So, yeah, you can follow me, connect with me
on social media Twitter andInstagram.
It's just Lindsay Kemeny.
My Facebook is I have aFacebook page, so it's it's
teaching with Lindsay Kemeny.
My Facebook is I have aFacebook page, so it's it's
teaching with Lindsay Kemeny.
And I have a website,lindsaykemenycom, so you can go.
If you want to reach out andhave questions, you can reach me
(42:31):
there.
I'm the co-host of LiteracyTalks podcast, so we talk all
things literacy and so you canfind me there too.
Melissa (42:43):
Well, thank you so much .
Lori (42:44):
Yeah, we'll link all of that in the show notes so that
everybody can find you veryeasily, and we're so grateful
that you came on for thisconversation.
Lindsay Kemeny (42:53):
Thank, you Thanks for having me, it's fun.
Lori (42:59):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list at
literacypodcastcom, join ourfacebook group and follow us on
instagram and twitter if thisepisode resonated with you, take
a moment to share with ateacher friend or leave us a
five-star rating and review onapple podcasts just a quick
(43:19):
reminder that the views andopinions expressed by the hosts
and guests of the Melissa andLori Love Literacy podcast are
not necessarily the opinions ofGreat Minds or its employees.
We appreciate you so much andwe're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
Thank you.
Everyone is talking about the science of reading,
and we know that it can feeloverwhelming.
There's a lot of talk aboutwhat the research says, which is
great, but we also need to findpractical ways to incorporate
research-backed strategies intoinstruction.
Lori (00:15):
That is so true, melissa.
Well, I stumbled upon this bookthat I happened to fall in love
with, by Lindsay Kemeny.
It's called Seven Mighty Moves,and she breaks down the signs
of reading into seven actionablestrategies, specifically for K3
reading.
Melissa (00:30):
Yeah, seriously this book is a game changer, and
Lindsay doesn't just throwresearch at you.
She gives insights into how shehas successfully implemented
these strategies in her ownclassroom.
Yep, even with videos.
Lori (00:42):
In this episode, you'll hear from Lindsay all about her
seven mighty moves and somepractical advice backed by
research.
Trust me, after listening toLindsay, you'll feel ready and
inspired to transform yourreading instruction.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
(01:04):
know you do too.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (01:06):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
We realized there was so muchmore to learn about how to teach
reading and writing.
Lori (01:22):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi everyone, we are here withone of our best teacher, friends
and the author of Seven MightyMoves, lindsay Kemeny.
She's been on the podcastbefore, in episodes 80 and 98.
We're so glad that she's backtoday to talk about her very
popular book.
It's part of Scholastic'sScience of Reading and Practice
series and just the same seriesthat our book is going to be in
(01:44):
the Literacy 50.
So we're super excited to haveyou here today, lindsay.
Lindsay Kemeny (01:48):
Thank you, it's great to be back.
I love both of you and I'mexcited to be on your podcast
again.
Lori (01:55):
So the first five moves in your book focus on phonemic
awareness and word recognition,while the final two focus on
fluency, vocabulary andcomprehension.
So I'd like to start byfocusing on the first five.
As a group, we know these arereally really important
foundational components toreading.
So let's jump into these movesAll right.
(02:15):
Move one Teach phonemicawareness with intention.
Move two Teach phonicsexplicitly and systematically.
Move three Teach decodingstrategies, not queuing
strategies.
Move four use decodable textsinstead of predictable texts
with beginning readers.
Move five embrace a betterapproach to teaching sight words
.
So the floor is yours.
(02:35):
What's important to take awayfrom these five?
Lindsay Kemeny (02:37):
Oh, it's hard because you know I could, I
could go, you know, an hour atleast on each one.
If you had asked me if I wasteaching phonics before, I would
have been like yes, and kind ofoffended if you were implying
that I wasn't teaching phonics.
But when I think back on what Iwas doing before, I was more
facilitating phonics activitiesversus explicitly and
(03:01):
systematically teaching them,like I didn't even have a scope
and sequence of phonics skillsto follow.
So that was just a huge changein my classroom is to say, okay,
I don't want that Swiss cheeseeffect in my students' knowledge
, right, I need to follow ascope and sequence and teach
them the basics of the Englishcode, whereas before I was
(03:24):
really kind of reactive,whatever they missed in a when
they were reading, then I waslike I guess I'll teach that or
point it out.
And sometimes there's this ideathat explicit instruction is
like very serious teacherlecturing, very you know, drill
and kill and dry, and thatcouldn't be further from the
(03:47):
truth.
And so if you came to myclassroom because I am a teacher
, if you came, you would seeit's so interactive.
I do something, they dosomething, I say something, they
say something, I read something.
They read something, I writesomething.
They write something.
Right I'm channeling AnitaArcher here but in an explicit,
systematic lesson there are alot of opportunities to respond,
(04:10):
and that's something that Ithink is really important to
remember and to try to increasethe amount of practice students
are getting, and I'm alwaysthinking about that throughout
the day how much are my studentsdoing?
How can I increase theseopportunities of practice for
them?
So that's huge.
Phenemic awareness is huge.
(04:31):
I wasn't even teaching itbefore.
I didn't even know it was athing, and that's an area where
I had to make a few shifts.
As my learning, you know,increased, as my learning, you
know, increased.
Decoding strategies instead ofqueuing strategies was a huge
(04:52):
one, and it's when I talk aboutit I often tell teachers like,
don't shoot the messenger.
I know this one is hard, but Ihad to completely abandon what
we call the three queuingstrategies, had to completely
abandon what we call the threequeuing strategies, and I mean I
just it's hard because I didthese and it's this idea that
(05:13):
readers use various cues tofigure out the words as they're
reading, and so you're coachingthem by saying look at the
picture, does that give you aclue?
Look at the first letter, readthe rest of the sentence, figure
out.
You know what the word is.
And when you take a step backand think about it, these are
(05:34):
guessing strategies, notdecoding strategies.
And I saw this with my sonbecause before he had the skills
, I mean, he would guess, guess,guess, guess, guess.
And you see this with students,even if you haven't taught them
they, you know they come to aword that looks difficult for
them and they'll just guessautomatically.
And so a huge change has beento really help my students, like
(05:59):
I need to help them learn totrust the letters and really
apply the phonics skills I'mteaching them.
And so the other, like usingdecodable texts, which is part
of move four for beginningreaders, that's going to help
this process.
So you know there's someoverlap in the moves, but and
(06:21):
then I guess I just want to saywhile I'm talking about this, we
don't want to overcorrect, andit doesn't mean we only use
decodables, and we'll probablytalk about this when we talk
about the other moves.
It doesn't mean that sometimespeople think now, context, like
you never refer to context andit's a bad thing, but you still
(06:42):
use context to understand themeaning of the words and what's
happening in the story.
You use pictures to add to yourcomprehension of the story.
But when we're saying not touse context or pictures, what we
mean is to decode a word.
You decode the word first andthen context will help.
(07:03):
You know, is that read or read?
Is that wind or wind?
Melissa (07:07):
I was going to ask that same question.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause we've hit that on a
couple other podcast episodeswhere we talked about just that,
where you know if they'redecoding a word and it doesn't
quite sound right to them, youknow, because maybe it can be
pronounced in a few differentways that's the time when you're
like oh well, look at thepicture.
Does you know it?
(07:27):
Does a different word makesense here?
That's close to what you justdecoded, but it's the after that
you're talking about, right?
Lindsay Kemeny (07:35):
Yeah, and the same with reading the rest of
the sentence.
Right, like reading the rest ofthe sentence to see oh, was it
read or read which one makessense?
Lori (07:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that I was going to say we've talked
about it before, melissa, butthat's that set for variability,
where readers have the abilityto try different sounds that
they know for the spellings thatthey see.
Lindsay Kemeny (07:55):
Yep, that mispronunciation correction,
right, and so they.
They're going to read it oneway and that might not make
sense, but they're like okay,many, oh many.
That sounds like many, butthey've decoded it first.
Lori (08:09):
I always think the really important thing there, too, is
for them to know that it's notright, if anything, like I
always used to praise studentsfor being like oh my God, like I
remember being in second gradeand being like, oh my gosh, you
knew when you didn't know thatthat is important, because what
always scared me were the kidswho just kept going, and that is
terrifying, cause they're likeI'm like you have either have no
(08:31):
idea or just don't want tobecause it's such a tedious task
, right, so we have to buildthat stamina muscle to go back
and it's it's hard, and so it'skind of like encouraging
students to know when they don'tknow, like I kind of I love
thinking about that andencouraging kids to do that, and
(08:52):
when they just keep on goinglike that, I mean they're just
not attending to the meaning atall, right, and so, yeah, you
want to kind of slow them downand make sure.
Lindsay Kemeny (09:02):
Oh, that didn't make sense, you've got to go
back and read that again.
Melissa (09:06):
Do you want to touch on the sight words real quick
before we move on?
Lindsay Kemeny (09:10):
Yeah, so before you know, what I often well I
think a lot of us do, is justthink a sight word is a word
that can't be sounded out and wejust have to memorize them,
right, like memorize them as awhole, like as a whole visual
unit.
And so that's really what I did.
And really, when I think back,I didn't teach them, I assigned
(09:32):
them and I just expected them tolearn them.
And there's a limit to how manywords we can memorize as a
whole.
There's a limit.
And you have some students thatare very good at memorizing and
they want to kind of bypass thestep of phonemic awareness, like
(09:52):
that might be a deficiency thatthey have.
And when you're matching thesounds you hear with the letters
, you see that is using phonemicawareness.
And when you're just memorizingwords as a whole, you're just
skipping that whole step.
And so I talked to someone asan adult who struggled learning
to read when he was young andhe's like that's what I did, I
(10:14):
just memorized words, I justmemorized words I don't know,
and he wasn't making aconnection.
But we know that in order forthose words to be stored in
memory, they've got to connectthe letters they see with the
sounds they hear, with themeaning of the word, right,
those three things have tohappen so that they can retrieve
(10:38):
that word effortlessly in thefuture, and that's what we want.
So I love the phrase every wordwants to be a sight word.
When it grows up, by JanWazowicz, I think, is the first
one that said that, and it'sjust.
You know, it's just kind ofchanged, like we want every word
to be orthographically mapped,we want every word to be
(11:00):
recognized instantly, but thatdoesn't mean we can skip steps.
I mean, students could do thatand they could just memorize
words as a whole, but thenthey're going to reach a limit
and not be able to memorizeanymore and so we need to attend
to the sounds, the letters andthe meaning of the words.
So that just really changedwhat I do.
(11:20):
And now I'm like, oh, I have toteach a word, I can't just
assign them words.
Lori (11:29):
I love that.
I also love very practicallythinking about how that spills
over into spelling and how,hopefully, spelling has changed
since I went to school to alignwith phonics and what we're
teaching and the words thatwe're teaching.
So I love thinking about thattoo, and that's one of our
favorite quotes Every word wantsto be a sight word too.
Lindsay Kemeny (11:47):
And you'll see, like if you have a book, you
know the book.
I share my favorite kind ofways, like I'll break down the
research and then I'll justshare here's my favorite ways to
work on this thing, or this iswhat I do in my classroom, just
to share.
And so in the, in that chapter,I'll share.
Okay, this is what I do now.
This is how I teach.
(12:07):
Quote unquote sight words,right?
Melissa (12:09):
So yeah, and there's links to videos of you too.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:13):
Yes, it was so scary doing because, okay, I
mean, you guys know, justputting a book out there that's
scary enough, right, Like you're.
Just, you're opening yourselfup to criticism and you put all
this work into something andthen anyone could say anything,
Right, and we know thatsometimes we tend to be really
judgmental.
And then, you know, adding thevideos is just another layer of
(12:37):
that where I'm like, look, I'mnot perfect, but I know that, no
matter what, when you'rewatching someone teach, it's a
learning opportunity, even ifyou see not as great things and
things you would change, or ifyou see great things.
Either way it's learning, andso I really hope that that's
helpful for teachers.
(12:57):
That was my desire, but it addsanother level of ah, eek, you
know scary, totallyunderstandable.
Melissa (13:05):
I've learned from your videos.
I hope that's helpful.
I mean I can even specificallysay like seeing how you use a
sound wall as a tool and how youquickly like move from phonemic
awareness to connecting it tothe letters so quickly with your
kids and it's interactive thewhole time.
I've learned a ton fromwatching you.
Oh, thank you.
Lindsay Kemeny (13:22):
That's so nice.
Thank, I've learned a ton fromwatching you.
Oh, thank you, that's so nice.
Thank you, it was fun.
It was fun and literally thosevideos were all recorded by me
and my phone.
I would just set it up and hitrecord and go around and teach
the lesson and go back over andstop and then send it to
Scholastic.
It's all very real life In fact.
(13:43):
Just a funny little story isone of the okay.
One time when I was recordingfor the book, I got really fancy
and I borrowed my husband'sphone and so I had two phones
going, so we had two differentangles and then Scholastic was
kind of piecing them togetherand they like I just felt like
(14:03):
one transition was really kindof odd.
And I was.
I was asking them you know, canwe, can we keep it on this
camera angle for a minute sothey can see me get started
there, and then we'll switch.
And they were like, well, oneof the students kept picking her
nose and I'm trying to editaround there and I'm like that
is just OK.
So it's just very real life.
(14:24):
This is my classroom.
Lori (14:27):
Oh my gosh, I hope you have a lot of like Lysol wipes.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:32):
Yeah, oh, for sure, I think every teacher does
.
It's like the number one schoolsupply.
Melissa (14:39):
You know, on the school supply list, All right, I think
we're going to move into thelast two moves and we're going
to spend a little time with eachone of them, okay, so moving on
to move six is all aboutfluency, and we actually have a
whole podcast with you aboutfluency as well.
I know that was a while ago.
It was a while ago, but it'spacked full of great information
(15:00):
.
But I love that this talksabout.
You know, like you can't justexpect fluency to improve on its
own.
You can't just expect it to besomething that kids get better
at just because they're inschool and reading with you.
Like it has to be intentional.
So you obviously suggest givingstudents really meaningful
practice opportunities toimprove their fluency.
Wondering if you want to sharesome of those practical ideas
(15:22):
with our listeners now, maybegive a little background first
and then share those practicalideas with our listeners now,
Maybe give a little backgroundfirst and then share those
practical ideas.
Lindsay Kemeny (15:28):
Yes.
So I love and I'm just tryingto I think this is like Lane and
Pullen quote, but they saylarge amounts of carefully
orchestrated reading practiceand I love those words.
And when we're thinking aboutfluency, this is really I think
about this a lot carefullyorchestrating times and
(15:50):
opportunities for students topractice their reading fluency.
Because, like you said, melissa, it's not just going to get
better on its own necessarily Ifwe just say, okay, we're going
to give lots of time for silentreading and students will get
better.
But if there's a student thathas a fluency weakness, they're
(16:11):
not going to get better.
If left to read silently, thatproblem just becomes inaudible.
And Dr Seidenberg talks aboutthat.
So, yes, lots and lots ofopportunities to read out loud,
with the opportunity forfeedback, also thinking about
how fluency develops inprogressions.
So sometimes we might think, ohwell, the upper grade teachers
(16:33):
will worry about fluency, but itstarts at the letter level and
the letter pattern level.
We want to develop theautomaticity and Dr Hasbrook
John Hasbrook says thatautomaticity is the heart and
soul of fluency.
And when you think of thosecomponents of fluency, that
(16:54):
accuracy, rate and prosody, thenyou have the accuracy and rate
and those combined areautomaticity, the accuracy and
the rate.
So we're working on that at theletter-letter pattern level and
then at the word level and thenat the phrase-sentence-passage
level.
So you know, just even juststarting in kindergarten, where
(17:17):
you're helping them get reallyautomatic with recognizing those
letter sounds, that's going tohelp them.
At the word level.
You're going to take thosephonics skills that you're
teaching and put them in wordsto help them.
So, like in my phonics lessons,I will make little word lists.
So if we just learned like whatdid we do?
(17:38):
A-i and A-Y, then I'm going tohave words with those for them
to practice and then we're goingto get into the passages and
phrases as well.
So there's a lot we can do.
Melissa (17:51):
All right, Lindsay, I'm wondering about one specific
thing that you mentioned in thechapter and you mentioned on our
last podcast, which isparagraph shrinking.
So I'm wondering if you want totalk a little bit more about
what that means, and I'd beinterested to.
Is that something you do withyour first graders?
What does it look like withfirst graders?
Lindsay Kemeny (18:14):
So the whole protocol is called partner
reading, paragraph shrinking,and I learned about this from Dr
Matt Burns and it's kind of apared down version of PALS,
p-a-l-s.
And what happened is I wasteaching second grade at the
time and I was really kind ofalarmed because it's the
beginning of the year and overhalf of my students are below
the benchmark for words correctper minute.
And I just thought, oh, likewhat do you do when it when it
(18:38):
seems like half your class needsintervention, you know?
And I just thought, well, I'velearned a lot about the science
of reading and I've done allthese things, so game on, here
we go.
And so two weeks later I go toprogress monitor my students and
our class median was 50 wordscorrect per minute and the
(19:00):
benchmarks 52, right, so we werebelow.
And so I do just all mybusiness as usual.
Two weeks later, I progressmonitor everyone and our class
median rose to 51.
So I'm like, well, that's notvery good.
What am I going to do?
(19:23):
Webinar that Patton was hostingwith Dr Matt Burns, the topic
was class-wide interventions forreading and math and I was just
thinking a class-wideintervention.
Yeah, that's exactly what Ineed.
I need something I can do forthe whole class.
I need an intervention for thewhole class.
(19:43):
So I started and it'sevidence-based, it's designed
for grades two through eight andDr Burns says it's two weeks.
It's like it's 20 minutes a dayfor two weeks.
So I really wasn't expecting toleave that presentation with
(20:05):
something I could do right away.
But I did and so two weekslater I progress monitor my
class.
Remember our class median wasat 51.
Two weeks later it was 64 wordscorrect per minute.
Melissa (20:20):
So two weeks huge and 20 minutes a day yeah, 20
minutes for two weeks.
Lindsay Kemeny (20:26):
That's it.
Lori (20:27):
So I feel like it would be awesome if you explained to our
listeners like what isparagraph shrinking?
Partner reading routine.
Did I get it right?
And I usually just call itparagraph shrinking and don't
say the rest.
Lindsay Kemeny (20:39):
Cause you could just do paragraph shrinking
anytime, Right?
So he's doing partner.
I just go, I use PRPS and so,like in my notes or in my
planner, I'll put PRPS, partnerreading, paragraph shrinking,
yeah.
And and let me just say you cando this so you can be two weeks
and done or you can continue todo it.
I liked it so I continue to doit, but I just not necessarily
(21:01):
every day, but I would do it,you know, maybe two or three
times a week, and then sometimesI'd be like, okay, now the next
two weeks we're going to do it,and so I just want to share
that.
The middle of the year, secondgrade, the benchmark is 72 and
my class median was 90 wordscorrect per minute.
And by the end of the year, thebenchmark for second grade is
(21:22):
87 words correct per minute andmy class the median was 118
words correct per minute.
So it was just like whoa, Imean, and what I love about it,
and you'll see, is it's just anopportunity for practice.
It's not like I'm saying readfaster, or like timing them and
putting pressure on, it's justan opportunity for practice.
(21:44):
So what students do is you putthem in intentional partnerships
and then the stronger readergoes first.
That's reader one, and theyread for five minutes.
Then reader two reads for fiveminutes, and then reader one.
It's back to reader one and nowthey read for five minutes, but
(22:04):
they stop to shrink everyparagraph as they read.
So they're summarizing everyparagraph.
And then reader two reads forfive minutes, stopping to shrink
every paragraph, and when youparagraph shrink, they read a
paragraph and then they answerthe questions what's the most
(22:25):
important, who or what?
Tell the most important thingabout the who or what and then
say the main idea in 10 words orless.
So they're taking those thingsthey just said and then trying
to shrink it to just 10 words.
So they just really kind of getthe gist of the paragraph.
Melissa (22:41):
Lindsay, is partner two reading the same text as
partner one, or do they keepreading?
Lindsay Kemeny (22:48):
Yeah, this is so good, and whenever I do
presentations on this, like I gothrough this and then still
it's it can be a littleconfusing at first.
So they're, they both have thesame texts in front of them and
they when reader one is reading.
So they're, they're reading thesame thing, and Dr Burns in the
research study says it needs tobe on the weaker partner's
(23:11):
reading level, which we knowreading levels.
That's a little arbitrary andyou can be kind of flexible with
that, but generally you wantsomething that the weaker reader
can be successful with.
And does that answer yourquestion, or do you want me to
go in more detail on that?
Melissa (23:28):
No, just clarifying.
So it just means that, like thesecond reader is repeating what
the first reader, Okay, yeah,and the first half, yes.
Lindsay Kemeny (23:36):
So the first, so the reader one reads five
minutes, reader two goes back tothe beginning and starts where
reader one had started andreading for five minutes.
So yes, it's like they got apassage preview right.
They got some modeling, whichwe know from research that
that's helpful too.
But then the second half.
So reader one will then startwherever reader two left off and
(23:58):
they're going to be stopping toparagraph shrink.
And then reader two is going tocontinue wherever reader one
left off on that last littlepart and be paragraph shrinking.
So that part may or might maynot have been read to them.
Lori (24:12):
So do you want to make sure that what they are reading
is long enough for them to forfor the full 20 minutes, for
them to not finish it beforethat 20 minutes, or would they
just go back and reread, likeI'm just like let's get nitty
gritty here.
I have a lot of logisticalquestions.
Lindsay Kemeny (24:28):
I have them go on to the next passage.
So I have I put in theirfolders like maybe six to eight
passages, okay, and so what I dois I use ReadWorks.
Readworks is free and you canget a lot of passages on the
same topic.
That's going to be so great,because we're going to talk in a
(24:50):
minute about that wide readingright and multiple texts on the
same topic is great for buildingtheir knowledge.
They're going to see severalvocabulary words throughout
those texts, which is going tobe great.
So when they finish one text,they just go to the next one and
(25:10):
then I have, um, you know, Ijust staple those together and
they have, like you know, six toeight passages and if they
happened to get through them all, they would just start at the
beginning again.
Um, it, dr Burns and hisresearch studies.
They would have just like aloose leaf um paper and they
would put it behind and theywouldn't read them again.
(25:32):
But for me in my class I knew Icouldn't be printing off all of
that every day, and so I wouldprint off for the week and then
I would print off new passagesfor the next week and then what
I would do is like um, monday orTuesday we might start with the
first passage.
Maybe on Wednesday I'll saylet's start with the second or
the third passage, becausesometimes they don't get far
(25:54):
enough along because they'restarting you know they're
stopping to shrink everyparagraph.
Hopefully that makes sense.
But it is in this chapter too.
It's described in this chapterand I have QR codes in there
with handouts to help you and Ihave a whole presentation on
there with handouts to help youand, um, and there's a.
I have a whole presentation onthis and that's linked in the
book too, if you wanted to watchthe whole presentation for the
(26:14):
reader, for the listeners outthere.
And I forgot to mention sobecause someone asked me about
first grade.
So it is designed secondthrough eighth grade, but now
I'm in first grade and I I do itin first grade.
But what I do is I wait untilJanuary to start.
My last year's class I startedin February.
(26:35):
They just need a little moretime.
This year's class was ready inJanuary to start and I started
everyone in decodables first,and now I'm transitioning Um, so
when they're ready, Itransition them into the regular
ReadWorks passages.
There are ReadWorks decodablepassages too, which is nice, um,
(26:57):
so that's great because I canhave some students in regular
passages and some students inthe decodables, but that they're
on the same topic, which iskind of nice, and and nobody
really knows or realizes thatthey're in different.
You know they have differentdifficulty levels.
I can't talk, you know, withtheir passages that the students
don't really notice.
Lori (27:18):
Yeah, well, and then it's all in service of building that
vocabulary and backgroundknowledge, and I assume maybe it
might connect to something elsethat you're learning about, or
maybe like something specialthat your class has chosen to
learn about.
Is that right?
Lindsay Kemeny (27:31):
Yeah, it doesn't have to, because it can be
addition, in addition to whatyou're already teaching in
science or in social studies,but you can also go right along
with it.
In fact, one of the studiesthat Dr Burns talks about it was
upper grade teachers, and theywere saying we just don't have
time to do this.
And so they?
Well, they did it as part oftheir science and they used, you
know, science topics, and notonly did their reading improve,
(27:54):
but their science scoresimproved too, so that was-.
Lori (27:58):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing .
Yeah, we talked with Dr Branson.
Now you're making me want totalk with him again about this
too.
Lindsay Kemeny (28:05):
He's a wealth of knowledge.
I just really admire him andjust the fact that he I just
feel like he's always reallytrying to help us teachers and I
really appreciate that, likeall his advice.
Lori (28:17):
Yeah, all right.
Well, I feel like we're kind ofgetting into some background
knowledge stuff now, so I'd loveto transition to move seven.
It's all about embracingvocabulary and background
knowledge.
Can you share some ideas aboutwhat teachers can do to make
this move?
Lindsay Kemeny (28:33):
Yeah, so you know and this was kind of just a
mistake I was doing before Ireally wasn't considering how
important background knowledgeand vocabulary are to reading
comprehension.
But they play a huge role andthere's a lot of things we can
do here.
Don't neglect your read aloudsand keep doing those rich read
(28:53):
alouds for students.
I mean they can they have theability to listen and hear.
You know texts that are abovetheir.
You know what they can read andso they can learn you know
sophisticated ideas and beexposed to more vocabulary,
words and rich ideas indifferent situations than
they're used to, and I thinkthere's so many benefits to
(29:14):
those read alouds.
Melissa (29:16):
When I hear people say that read alouds are like, not
aligned to the science ofreading, oh my, God, I just I'm
like who is saying this?
Lindsay Kemeny (29:26):
I haven't heard that.
That's really interesting.
Melissa (29:29):
But it's the people who like focus on the just the like
.
It's just phonics.
Lindsay Kemeny (29:33):
Yeah, and usually I feel like they have an
agenda, so yeah, so let's putit like let's put a pin in that
the science of reading includesgreat read-alouds and rich
discussion, and it's going tobuild oral language.
Lots of benefits 100%.
Lori (29:55):
Is there anything that, as you transitioned to Move7, that
you did that made an especiallybig impact on your students in
building their knowledge?
Lindsay Kemeny (30:06):
in building their knowledge.
Oh, that's so.
I don't to choose somethingover the others, I don't know
Definitely.
Just I think, thinking aboutthe fact that, hey, we want to
build knowledge as we're reading, and so when I have students in
(30:26):
complex text, I really we needto scaffold them into complex
text.
So thinking of things that theycan do, things I can do before
they're reading, to help themunderstand the text that we're
going to read together, so I canpre-teach some vocabulary words
or some phrases that might be alittle unusual.
(30:46):
For example, we were reading abook on Thomas Edison and it had
a phrase that was as a result,as a result and my first graders
probably don't use thatlanguage, as a result, and so
they're going to see that in thetext we're going to read, and
so that might be, here's alittle phrase and I'm going to
pull that out and maybe thesentence before it and with that
(31:10):
to kind of explain look, thisis what as a result means and
this is what it's saying, andwe'll see this in our text.
And I think another way to kindof scaffold is giving them a
purpose.
Okay, we're going to read.
You're going to read somethingreally interesting that Tom
Edison did when he was youngerto solve a problem that he had.
(31:32):
Let's see what that is, or youknow, whatever, and just kind of
giving them a purpose,pre-teaching vocabulary and
those phrases and then writingabout what we're reading, and
that's just another way todeepen our knowledge.
So, oh, lori, I'm sorry, youasked me one thing and then I
kind of like a few things, andthen I'm thinking of more and
(31:53):
I'm like I don't know, it's hardto pick one.
Lori (31:58):
What did you notice in your students writing as you
transitioned to having themwrite about what they were
reading?
Lindsay Kemeny (32:04):
You know, anytime I mean their writing
isn't going to improve, but alsotheir the knowledge of the
topic.
Because when you write aboutsomething and you guys know,
because you just wrote a bookwhen you write about something
you've really got to thinkthrough it and three, think
through all different sides ofit, right, and you understand it
(32:25):
so much better in the processof writing about it.
And so our students willexperience that too.
So we can read something andthen we're going to write about
something, but I mean it just itforces them to think about what
they've learned in, you know,deeper ways.
(32:46):
We need to be able to say it ifwe're going to write it, and one
of the ideas I share in thischapter in the book is keyword
outlines, where you read thetext and then you pull out, like
you look at the first sentence,you pull out three words, the
three most important words ofthat sentence, and the students
(33:07):
write it on their outline.
And then they go to the nextsentence and then they pull out
three key words and put it onthe outline, right, then we're
going to put that source textaway and then they're just going
to have their outline that theywrote with the keywords on them
, and we're going to practiceturning each one of those into a
sentence.
Now it's going to be differentfrom the text because we put the
(33:28):
text away, but this is also agreat sentence building activity
for each one.
But then also you're putting itall together in a paragraph and
so I'll have my students andpartners practice speaking and
saying that before they write it, and I learned about that from
the Institute for Excellence inWriting and it's a great
(33:49):
activity.
Lori (33:51):
That's awesome.
I love anytime students cantalk before they write and that
is a great teacher's tip andstrategy right there, the
building sentences.
So thank you for that.
Melissa (34:02):
Lindsay, I'm wondering if we can talk really quickly
about types of texts, because Iheard you mention decodable
texts, complex texts, read aloudtexts, and when we're thinking
about improving comprehensionand vocabulary, I feel like the
text really matters.
So can you talk a little bitabout, especially in that K2
world, what kinds of texts we'retalking about using?
Lindsay Kemeny (34:22):
I am glad you asked this question because it's
something I'm really concernedabout that sometimes we tend to
overcorrect a little bit and sowe talk a lot about using
decodable texts for beginningreaders.
I love decodable texts, butthen sometimes people
overcorrect and think we onlyuse decodables and that's just
(34:42):
not the case.
We need a variety of texts.
But the question is kind ofwhen and how much, and so when
students are reading so I'mteaching first grade so students
at the beginning of the yearthey all start in decodable
texts and that's what they'rereading like in small group.
(35:03):
But I'm still reading aloud tothem and we're also reading more
quote unquote complex textsbecause it's complex for them in
our whole group.
Now at the beginning of theyear in first grade the whole
group is still decodable andthen throughout the year it gets
(35:23):
harder.
So right now, like in thespring, we're recording this.
In the spring this probablyhasn't been released, but in the
spring.
Now I have, you know, our wholegroup.
Complex text is regular text.
Like I was just talking aboutthat Thomas Edison book.
It's just a regular text.
(35:44):
It's not decodable.
In small group I have somestudents that are in decodables
and have others that are inregular texts.
I like to transition studentsfrom highly decodable texts to
lower decodability texts.
So you guys know I love geodes.
(36:06):
Those are less decodable, infact now correct me if I'm wrong
I think they call themreadables.
Now I love using like I'llstart the year everyone in
highly decodable and then I'mgoing to transition students
into deodes and they're doinggreat with those and I know, hey
, they're going to be ready forregular texts.
(36:27):
So it's it's kind of acontinuum, but then all along.
So even right now we have thiscomplex text we're reading as a
group.
Students are reading differentthings in small group and I'm
still doing read aloud to themwith, you know, texts that are
harder than what they could readby themselves.
(36:47):
So that's going to be so.
I guess I just it doesn't meanso people are.
Sometimes people are sayingthings about leveled books, like
they're getting rid of alltheir leveled books, and to me
any book can be leveled, so likethey're getting rid of all
their leveled books, and to meany book can be leveled, so
that's a huge problem.
I replace the predictablerepetitive texts, those very
(37:11):
beginning levels, so like it'susually those guided reading
levels A through D.
That's when I would use that's.
You know I'm using decodablesthere instead.
I'm not going to get rid of allmy other texts because I have
to transition students into them.
So and what's tricky about itis it's not the same for every
student.
I think a lot of students areready to transition the middle
(37:33):
of first grade, but not everyoneCan I?
Lori (37:36):
I'm going to ask another nuanced question about your
whole group text.
So can you walk through whatthat looks like?
Can you walk through how muchof it you're reading aloud, how
much students are reading aloud,and maybe just an example, like
you said, the Thomas Edisontext like is it first grade-ish?
Yeah, I think it's first grade,okay, okay.
Lindsay Kemeny (37:58):
First grade-ish.
I like that, yeah.
So before we read, we're goingto, I'm going to pre-teach any
vocabulary words that they'regoing to need for that text, and
maybe it's not a vocabularyword but just it's.
It's going to be tricky forthem to read and I'm going to
pull out some of those to talkabout phrases Like I talked
about.
That as a result, you know, andyou're going to, and I will
(38:20):
need to prep them with any if Ifeel like there's any background
knowledge that they need inorder to access that text.
And then initially, what I dois I will read the text to them.
A lot of times we do.
I mean, I call it echo reading,but echo reading you might
(38:41):
consider a little shorter.
So I am going to read a pageand the page is maybe a
paragraph or two.
I'm going to read the page andthe students read the page
Corally together, and then we goto the next page.
I read it and then they read it, and we're going to stop and
talk whenever you know we fail,and then go to the next one.
I read a page, they read thesame page.
(39:02):
So they're getting a model, I'mmodeling it for them and then
they're reading it.
Sometimes they can do it bythemselves, and sometimes I have
my voice with them so that theycan stay with me.
And then the same text that Iwill have them partner read it,
and when they're in theirpartners, I have them do it the
same way where they're in theseintentional partnerships, and
(39:23):
the stronger reader will readthe page and then the weaker
partner is going to read thesame page and then they go to
the next one and the strongerreader does it and the weaker
reader does it, and the wholetime they're doing that I'm
walking around to help and if Ineed, I can create a triad, a
threesome.
If I have one student whereit's really difficult for them,
(39:45):
I'm going to pair them withsomeone else and they're going
to be reading it at the sametime and then they have the
stronger model with them.
Does that make sense?
So we do a lot of that and thenwe'll write about what we read
afterwards.
Lori (39:58):
That's awesome.
Okay, thank you.
I appreciate that specificity.
Lindsay Kemeny (40:03):
Yeah, so it's just thinking about that complex
text.
Think of modeling the reading,echo reading, choral reading and
partner reading.
Those are all kind of thedifferent ways that you can help
them access the text and write.
The model reading is going togive them the most.
You're doing most of the work.
Versus partner reading, nowyou've kind of it's a little
(40:25):
more of an I do right, goingfrom I do, I mean, you do, I do,
we do, you do.
Lori (40:31):
All right.
So, lindsay, now we can kind ofthink about reflect on our
conversation today.
Is there anything that youdidn't share, that you would
like to share about your book?
Is there anything that youdidn't?
Lindsay Kemeny (40:41):
share that you would like to share about your
book.
I will think about somethingtonight, probably when I'm
laying in bed and I'll be likedang it.
I wish I would have said that,but I guess I just want to say
I've just been really honoredbecause I told you I was so
scared putting it out in theworld, and I think I think when
(41:02):
Scholastic first was like hey,it's a yes, we're going to do
this, I was like they were likeyou should be really excited,
because my reaction was kind oflike, oh my gosh, I'm so scared.
And so I have just beenoverjoyed and just so appreciate
just the kindness and peoplereaching out and sharing with me
(41:25):
how it's helped them and howit's changed what they've
they're doing or how theyappreciate you know one thing or
the other, and it's just meantso much to me and so I'm just,
I'm just really grateful andgrateful.
I had the opportunity and Idon't think I'm perfect, and so
I just appreciate that peoplehave been so kind.
Melissa (41:45):
Well, we thank you for being so vulnerable and putting
it out there, because I've seenso so many people who have just
been excited about the work youput out and, like you said,
really helped them in their ownclassroom.
So thank you for that.
I'll just share real quick.
I mean, obviously you can orderthis on Amazon Scholastic.
They can find it there.
(42:05):
Is there anything else you wantto share?
Lindsay, about where they canconnect with you?
Lindsay Kemeny (42:10):
So, yeah, you can follow me, connect with me
on social media Twitter andInstagram.
It's just Lindsay Kemeny.
My Facebook is I have aFacebook page, so it's it's
teaching with Lindsay Kemeny.
My Facebook is I have aFacebook page, so it's it's
teaching with Lindsay Kemeny.
And I have a website,lindsaykemenycom, so you can go.
If you want to reach out andhave questions, you can reach me
(42:31):
there.
I'm the co-host of LiteracyTalks podcast, so we talk all
things literacy and so you canfind me there too.
Melissa (42:43):
Well, thank you so much .
Lori (42:44):
Yeah, we'll link all of that in the show notes so that
everybody can find you veryeasily, and we're so grateful
that you came on for thisconversation.
Lindsay Kemeny (42:53):
Thank, you Thanks for having me, it's fun.
Lori (42:59):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list at
literacypodcastcom, join ourfacebook group and follow us on
instagram and twitter if thisepisode resonated with you, take
a moment to share with ateacher friend or leave us a
five-star rating and review onapple podcasts just a quick
(43:19):
reminder that the views andopinions expressed by the hosts
and guests of the Melissa andLori Love Literacy podcast are
not necessarily the opinions ofGreat Minds or its employees.
We appreciate you so much andwe're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
Thank you.
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