April 8, 2025 • 24 mins
We've got it all wrong, there's no good guys & bad guys .... they're all bad!
'Peter Pan' by J.M. Barrie is a classic story of a child who never grows up. Peter lives in Neverland, a mystical island where pirates, Indians and wild beasts roam. He commands a gang of Lost Boys and takes them on adventures along with Wendy, Tinkerbell, John & Michael.
If you got value from the podcast please provide support back in any way you best see fit!
Timeline:
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:02:58) Themes/Questions
(00:12:44) Author & Extras
(00:18:50) Summary
(00:21:51) Value 4 Value
(00:22:43) Join Live!
Connect with Mere Mortals:
Website: https://www.meremortalspodcasts.com/
Discord: https://discord.gg/jjfq9eGReU
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meremortalspods
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meremortalspodcasts/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@meremortalspodcasts
Value 4 Value Support:
Boostagram: https://www.meremortalspodcasts.com/support
Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/meremortalspodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyrin Down (00:00):
We've got it all wrong. There's no good guys and bad guys. They're all bad guys.
(00:11):
Welcome,
everyone, to to another episode of the Mere Mortals Book Reviews. I'm your host here, Kyrin, live on the 04/09/2025.
And as you might surmise, this is the book reviews podcast where I gush about my love of children.
Okay. Okay. I you know, I don't actually mind children, but not the children in this book that we have here for today. We've got Peter Pan by JM
(00:36):
Barrie.
This was a 1911
book, although it was based on a nineteen o four play. 231
pages in total. I'd say it took me like four to five hours reading to get through. It's not that big.
And this one in particular is not an illustrated version. So it's all of the just writing with only a couple little tiny illustrations.
(00:59):
So,
if for those who are unaware of the story of Peter Pan, it's a classic story of a child who never grows up. And basically, Peter lives in Neverland.
He's a flying little impish type character probably around the age of
12 ish, if you had to put it. I don't think that he's he's given an actual age.
And this is because he never grows up as well he is this ageless eternal mythical being
(01:25):
he in Neverland it's this mystical island where you can find pirates and coves and mermaids and beasts and wild native indians
and, you know, forts and houses where the the kids create these things and the lost boys who Peter somewhat commands.
Peter is a rather naughty little boy, and he,
(01:46):
likes to go on adventures.
And he finds some children in the real world, this being Wendy,
John, and Michael.
And he brings them over to his his mystical land, sort of in, like imagine, like, a dream type
trances is how, I guess, you would describe how the children come over. And they're accompanied by the, ever
(02:08):
nasty
little Tinker Bell, a fairy. And they go on all sorts of adventures,
fighting pirates like Captain Hook and,
getting into mishaps with the Never Bird and the ocean rising and, you know, helping save the Indians and fighting them and all these sorts of things. So
not too much actually happens in this book.
There is 17 chapters in total, and you're probably only exposed to
(02:32):
probably, I would say,
three adventures on the actual island. And a lot of it is spent in
the going to the island and then also coming back from the island. So of these chapters, you've got, like, Peter breaks through the shadow, come away, come away, the flight, the island come true, the pirate ship, hook me, hook on me this time, the return home, when Wendy grew up, etcetera, etcetera.
(02:52):
This is the,
vintage classics version for those who are wondering as well. So let's jump into the themes and questions.
Why does this appeal to kids? What happens
when you grow up? What morals can perhaps we learn from these tales?
And to start off with, let's address the crocodile in the room.
Almost every character in this tale is a complete and utter asshole. Flying little assholes, in fact. And
(03:19):
in this can take
in in some shape or form. They're not all pure
assholes.
Peter definitely is. But mostly they show this via their communication
style,
emotional reactions to situations,
actions that they physically take,
and somewhat via their intent as well.
(03:39):
Now this is understandable if you're being being an asshole to your mortal enemies, and there are kind of a lot of danger and and things happening in this book, which you could go, okay, you can understand why they're you you might be construed as an asshole in this context. But really, it's when it is applied to their own friends
is where we see the real
(03:59):
asshole behavior coming out. And when I say asshole, I just mean like, they're not good people. They're not moral. They're they're they're rather mean.
And to give this some substantiation, let's look at some of the instances that happen. We have Peter locking Tinkerbell in a cupboard. We have Tim, Tinkerbell being more than happy to try and kill Wendy,
(04:21):
via lighting her up for gunshots when they're flying after, you know, meeting her in the day or two, earlier. We have Peter making his friends starve while playing make make believe. We have the mermaids not playing with the kids and,
doing all the things on their own. We have Peter bullying his friends while playing pirates and be becoming somewhat of a tyrant.
We have mister Darling punishing Nana, the dog, for his own embarrassment, because he doesn't like to take his medicine. We have Peter trying to shut the window,
(04:51):
and,
by doing so makes the kids think that their parents don't love them so that they will stay with him forever on Neverland.
We have Hook hooking his underlings and just straight up gangster murdering them.
We have Peter forgetting to visit Wendy every year and only showing up, you know, as he kind of feels like it and things.
(05:11):
It's
a constant show of heartlessness,
carelessness and cockiness. And,
I think we're perhaps in just my little explanations there. You might,
one in the comments also said, Peter literally forgets people when they're gone. Correct.
Are we noticing a pattern of who is the biggest asshole here?
(05:31):
I think we are
probably the only people that really come out of this book.
Net good,
Mrs. Darling,
Wendy, I would say,
and
animals like the Never Bird, which
try to help Peter when he's in a, you know, he saves Peter life or she saves Peter's life.
Probably she because she was the one laying the eggs.
(05:54):
And even then, you know, she's berating him and yelling at him when whilst trying to save his life. So, like, almost all situations, probably only the women in the book are the ones who really come out not looking like assholes. Now,
why is this? Why why do people why do the people and not only the kids, but the adults in the story behave like this?
(06:14):
And I think it's because it is this childlike
vision of Neverland that that's the real core of it.
Kids, you can understand of not really knowing what asshole behavior is because,
you know, you're just a kid. You're just reacting. You don't have the, I guess, like the consciousness
awareness to be able to realize like, oh, my actions have consequences and other people kind of feel the way that I feel. And if I'm feeling bad and I've I've hurt them, it's it's that's really my fault. And that empathy component is kind of lacking. And
(06:51):
so it Neverland's nice because it allows you to just
have whatever emotions happen
and you can indulge in them. So if you're envious, you can hurt people. If you're angry, you can shout and fight. If you're sleepy, you can just stop wherever and nap. If you're bored, you can annoy other people. If you're jealous, you can steal their stuff.
(07:12):
And it's all kind of permitted, and there's no real social consequences
or consequences
of any sort
for these things.
And if there are, there are kind of consequences, but they they they've not viewed in this real negative light. And so
it does show that the kids and Peter doing nice things for people. So Wendy, for example, when she's almost on death's door, they they build a house for her. And Peter does save Tiger Lily.
(07:40):
But
even though these actions were kind of good things, he does them for fun, not because they're a right, a righteous and good thing to do.
He does it for his own amusement. So, you know, even in this case, when he is doing nice things, he's not
he's not doing it with the intent of goodness. It's it's for his own selfishness. And Neverland is the place of selfishness. You can do whatever you want.
(08:06):
Now, look, there are bad things that happen in Neverland.
Hook kills multiple people.
The children do have bad experiences and
they do feel negative emotions, but it's all kind of whitewashed away. And I'll talk more about the style of this in the in the following section on the author.
But growing up in this view in this world is is kind of viewed as a bad thing,
(08:29):
not because of the responsibility
aspect,
but more because you can't indulge in these fleeting emotions. So,
you have to go to school and learn solemn things. Peter decries when
Mrs. Darling is trying to persuade him to to live in the real world.
And it also means
you can't believe anymore as Wendy loses her ability to fly once she grows up, she can't believe.
(08:54):
And it's almost like the
the scales falling over the eyes
falling from the eyes. If you're using a biblical context, which is the
once you see the truth, the truth cannot be unseen sort of deal. And this is why Peter wants to live in this world. He doesn't want exposure to the real world because
then he I think the knowledge of the truth and how he's acting and hurting people,
(09:18):
would would probably be untenable. He wouldn't be able to to live in that. And so,
you know, I think
when people grow up, it's
the the the understanding of that real world actions have real world consequences.
Whereas in Neverland, the death, the starvation, the kidnapping, the fighting, the pain, they all have this ambivalent
(09:41):
quality to them. They're not they're part of a grand venture. So
Peter, for example, is happiest when his friends are at death's door or have just been kidnapped by the pirates or someone's in danger.
And he's not, like, stressed out about this. He's just like, alright, sweet. Let's go. Let's get into action. There's gonna be awesome,
cool little adventure with very little thought of, like, oh, I could lose my best friend and, you know, never see them again or something like that. So I guess, like, what are the morals that you can take from this? Well,
(10:10):
who are the unhappiest characters in the book?
Sure. People have the,
momentary
ones of sadness. Mr. And Mrs. Darling, for example, when their kids have
been, you know, gone missing for an indeterminate period of time. And Nana, you could add to that as well. The
Lost Boys certainly
(10:31):
feel this loneliness of not having a mother.
And Wendy gets, you know, upset when they do things like stay past their bedtime
or things like this.
The
Hook's
subordinates
certainly feel fear for him and,
and pain when they're in fights and the native Indians and things like this as well. But no, the two unhappiest characters are certainly Peter Pan and Captain Hook. And Peter
(10:59):
in his moments of inactivity,
you know, right before he's going to bed,
right after all of his friends have left him and they want to go back to the real world, we see he is indeed this lost and sad boy and
is
kind of covering up all of his pain by going on these adventures and, you know, having fun fire sword fighting and having a mortal enemy of Captain Hook and things like this.
(11:25):
Nobody really loves him, and he is unlovable
because of his cockiness,
because of his arrogance,
because of his lack of care of other people.
You could almost
say that he's kind of bipolar in some respect in that his handling of emotions. He has no emotional stability. He's just all over the place.
(11:46):
Hook, on the other hand, is constantly terrified of this ever persistent ticking crocodile.
You know, you dive into, like, the Jordan Peter esque version of this and saying, like, it's a metaphor for time, and
he's worried about the, you know, the time clicking up to him and time's already got a hold of him. And I wish I could do a squeaky Jordan Peterson voice, but I I can't,
(12:08):
he just can't let go of this obsession that he has with Peter.
And
if he could, you know, he'd probably be fine. He'd still be a bad person because he's a pirate and you can see the way he treats his subordinates and stuff. But,
he this living in this world of perpetual,
perpetual
unaccountability,
(12:29):
in this fantasy world, I think is just
masking or trying to hide these inner pains that they're feeling. Or maybe they're having a grand time. What do I know? It's a it's a frickin' children's book, right? Like, you probably don't need to look into it too, too deeply.
So let's jump on into the author and perhaps some extra details.
James Matthew Barry, JM Barry, born in 1860, a Scottish novelist.
(12:53):
As I mentioned, this was a play,
first, which was then adapted into a book.
And it seemed like it was a very successful play of the of the time as well when it came out in the early nineteen hundreds,
people being attached to strings and wires and flying all over the stage and stuff. And you could say, okay, yeah, you know, it's a it's a good story. It's it is an interesting world and concept
(13:17):
because this was also in the era where
fantasy, I guess, was just becoming
a kind of a genre. You know, he was influenced by
one of the classic books, which was the one on the island of
Robinson Crusoe
by Daniel Defoe. You know, that that sort of thing was was a novelty. It was a rarity
(13:39):
of this kind of mixing of real world with fantasy,
whereas most
things before that were more purely, I guess, in the fantasy or mythical realm, if I had to put it. Now, the the character itself of Peter Pan was was somewhat muddled, modeled after his brother who had died when he was
kind of probably around, you know, Peter Pan's age, this 12 years. And his mother was heartbroken of losing her favorite child and
(14:06):
kind of
wanted,
Jay and Barry to to be his brother in some sort of respect.
And so this
motif of the ageless child, I guess, was
formed fry from probably these personal experiences in his life.
Little interesting tidbit here was he popularized the name Wendy. There were some examples of it beforehand, but
(14:29):
Wendy, the main car one of the main characters in this book, the the kind of motherly girl,
was not a popular name before this and was actually taken from, another child who was interacting with with JM Barrie and was saying trying to say friendly but couldn't pronounce the r. So it was like Fuendy Fuendy. And so he, got the name Wendy from that.
(14:51):
To kind of frame up all of this, I've seen multiple Peter Pan movies in my life, most of them when I was a kid, All of them when I was kid, actually.
So even though I'd never been
told this from what I can recall or read the book, certainly this was my first reading of it.
I knew kind of the general storyline,
(15:11):
but I didn't have the full context of everything was in here. So for example, I think Hook has been done a real disservice
in the
in the movies and
cartoons that I've watched him for him. Not only the physical descriptions, which I just completely wrong. So for example, his right hand should have the hook, not the left as is as is
(15:33):
written in the book, whereas in most of the things, it's the opposite.
And he's certainly not as silly
as
he'd been made out to be. His atmosphere is nowhere near as
dangerous and cutting as the image I gave to him in my mind's eye.
I kind of feel like he was a more complex character.
(15:54):
And but they made him just this sort of simple evil buffoon in the in the, animes and the movies, whereas I thought he had a actually had a bit of depth to him. You know, look at what they did to my boy.
So James,
the author, kind of made the narrator of this this snarky,
heartless, quippy guy who's making fun of everyone and everything.
(16:17):
I
haven't read out anything here. I wonder if I can find something real quick. Probably not. But there's certainly
pieces of this where he was making fun of everyone and everything, even if they had a good emotion and stuff like this.
And
while this is fun, I didn't realize just how
brutal and satirical
(16:39):
the book is. Like, many people die in this and many people experience a whole lot of pain. And I just wasn't ready for it, I guess.
And when I say satirical, I mean in the
ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices. There's a whole lot of that going on in this book. I, I thought it was more magical and fun and playful. Whereas when you're reading this, you're like, goddamn, it's like
(17:03):
not only are there a whole bunch of assholes in this, but the narrator himself is kind of
snarky is probably the the best way to put it.
Now, he does a great job of making this world come to life,
but I was surprised at how unlikable the characters are.
Peter's cockiness is the thing that drives captain hook to insanity, and I can see why that little shit is so annoying. Goddamn.
(17:28):
Being around him for
even five minutes would be too much.
Tinker Bell is just a ride on bitch. Like just pure bitch
who upon getting saved, for example,
immediately wants to fight the haters rather than the people who are rescued her. And when I say rescued her,
it was
(17:49):
little children cheering her on and clapping for her,
is is kind of what saved her when she drank some poison. So it's like, man, okay, these these characters are just so unlikable. How can you how can you root for them? Like, how how's this a story of like bad guys and good guys who are all bad guys?
For me, the most likable was actually Hook.
(18:09):
He he had morals. He was concerned about kind of good form versus bad form.
Yet also he wasn't afraid to break form by surprising the Indians by doing a sneak attack, for example.
I found him to be a complex character who I actually felt for, you know, the fear of the crocodile, the loneliness of command, this
deathly rage that he tries to keep a handle on leaders leadership skills that he shows to prevent a mutant mutiny.
(18:37):
The, I think, somewhat justifiable
crusade against Peter Pan.
You know, if he'd killed Peter, I'm not sure the world would have been that much a worse a place, you know? So
let's jump out of the
the summary. Similar books, recommendations, perhaps.
Look, it's a good book for creating a new world.
(18:57):
One of wonder for sure. Also, these brutal things that are somewhat made fun of. So
Neverland is a rather interesting place. I enjoyed the creation of this mystical island,
and I actually would have liked to know more about the quirks of this world. Like, for example,
what what happens with fairies? What what's their kind of deal? Because you hear of how there's fairies who are girls, there's boy fairies, and then there's these ones that are kind of like in between.
(19:26):
I'd like to know the pecking order of the beasts,
the backstory of the crocodile, for example,
why the mermaids behave the way they do. I love the world,
and I would have preferred the focus to be on that rather than the adventures of Peter
and kind of character development, because I don't think there's much character development. They're
(19:48):
they're they're shown to be assholes from the right, right at the start. And there's not a whole lot more going on beneath the surface.
I found I found them unlikable for the most part, but even worse,
boring. There was plenty of boring characters in this who I just went like,
like whatever, you know, the lost children or whatever, Tiger Lily, you know, like the character development that did go on, I found to be shallow. So,
(20:15):
I can't say I really connected with anyone apart from Hook. Does this make me a bad person?
Probably.
And I was not expecting the mature writing just to find within this, you know,
not only the jokes about Tinker Bell's,
Embon Point, which I learned is like curvy flesh of the woman or just curvy flesh, I guess, in general.
(20:36):
But fairies coming home from an orgy, for example, the killings, the scalpings, the poisonings.
If you're a kid and
reading this, I'm not sure what morals you take from this, and I'm really not sure what you learned because there's not a whole lot of good things going on in this book. So overall, I'm gonna give it a four and a half out of 10 Peter Pan by JM Barrie.
(20:57):
I don't yeah. It's it's a it's a strange book. I wasn't I wasn't really expecting
it
to be like it is.
And would I read it to, you know, children in the future? I'm not sure about it, to be honest, because I'm not I'm not sure what they can. Maybe, you know, maybe kids love it. And,
who knows? Who knows?
Similar books, recommendations.
(21:18):
I'm trying to think of a children's book which has this kind
of roughness to it, you know?
Yeah. Probably something like that. Robinson Crusoe is is about as close as you'll get. That's more mature writing because it's about a man and it's not about children.
Things like, you know, Pan the movie where it's it's kind of scary. It's got kids in it, but it's it's weird as well. Probably some of the old grim fairy tales would also
(21:46):
be similar
to, to these sorts of things.
So that's it for today. Thank you, everyone, for joining in. This is a value for value podcast
available anywhere, anytime,
for anyone.
No ads, no sponsorships, no things like that. All of this just juicy value coming straight at you. And we just ask that you return it in some shape or form
(22:07):
time by, you know, hitting the share button, joining live when I do these of word-of-mouth is really important to podcasts like this of talent. Give me your book recommendations. What did you like?
What do you think I would like? Maybe even your thoughts on on this book, I would love to hear. You can do that either in the YouTube comments or via reaching us out to us via any of the social media links down below. And then finally, Treasure. There is a PayPal link down below if you want to send us money for all the lights, camera equipment,
(22:39):
energy spent on these things and things like this. So
as I mentioned, I am live here
11AM
Australian Eastern Standard Time on a Wednesday. I'll be doing this for the next month, and then it's gonna be a bit haphazard while I'm traveling in Europe. We do have one joining us. He was just saying all the rights and royalties go to a hospital as well for this book, which is cool. Yeah. That's interesting.
(23:00):
I think it must be getting pretty close to entering public domain. So I don't know if the rights and royalties and and those sorts of things still
work like that.
Maybe
pub, you know, public domain, I guess, means you can just use the actual words, but perhaps there is still a copyright on the actual character of Peter Pan, the flying asshole,
himself.
(23:20):
He says listening to one x speed is crazy. I'm usually at two and a half year stuff.
Man, gonna melt your brain with that. So thank you very much, Juan, for for joining in at regular speed.
And,
what's coming up? I am reading Neuromancer at the moment by William Gibson.
I'm not sure what Juan's got. He's been pretty busy moving house, so that's why he hasn't really been putting out any book reviews. But I'm sure when he gets all that sorted in the next month,
(23:46):
maybe he'll have time because then, he's gonna be traveling as well. We're both traveling for his wedding, which is coming up
in June. So lots of exciting stuff going on for us. And we will try and keep these book reviews coming out
on a weekly basis. But, you know, there might be a a couple of months there where it's a little bit, haphazard.
So
thank you very much for joining in. I do hope you're having a fantastic day wherever you are in the world, in the real world, not in Neverland. And chaffing out. Carrying out. Bye.
We've got it all wrong. There's no good guys and bad guys. They're all bad guys.
(00:11):
Welcome,
everyone, to to another episode of the Mere Mortals Book Reviews. I'm your host here, Kyrin, live on the 04/09/2025.
And as you might surmise, this is the book reviews podcast where I gush about my love of children.
Okay. Okay. I you know, I don't actually mind children, but not the children in this book that we have here for today. We've got Peter Pan by JM
(00:36):
Barrie.
This was a 1911
book, although it was based on a nineteen o four play. 231
pages in total. I'd say it took me like four to five hours reading to get through. It's not that big.
And this one in particular is not an illustrated version. So it's all of the just writing with only a couple little tiny illustrations.
(00:59):
So,
if for those who are unaware of the story of Peter Pan, it's a classic story of a child who never grows up. And basically, Peter lives in Neverland.
He's a flying little impish type character probably around the age of
12 ish, if you had to put it. I don't think that he's he's given an actual age.
And this is because he never grows up as well he is this ageless eternal mythical being
(01:25):
he in Neverland it's this mystical island where you can find pirates and coves and mermaids and beasts and wild native indians
and, you know, forts and houses where the the kids create these things and the lost boys who Peter somewhat commands.
Peter is a rather naughty little boy, and he,
(01:46):
likes to go on adventures.
And he finds some children in the real world, this being Wendy,
John, and Michael.
And he brings them over to his his mystical land, sort of in, like imagine, like, a dream type
trances is how, I guess, you would describe how the children come over. And they're accompanied by the, ever
(02:08):
nasty
little Tinker Bell, a fairy. And they go on all sorts of adventures,
fighting pirates like Captain Hook and,
getting into mishaps with the Never Bird and the ocean rising and, you know, helping save the Indians and fighting them and all these sorts of things. So
not too much actually happens in this book.
There is 17 chapters in total, and you're probably only exposed to
(02:32):
probably, I would say,
three adventures on the actual island. And a lot of it is spent in
the going to the island and then also coming back from the island. So of these chapters, you've got, like, Peter breaks through the shadow, come away, come away, the flight, the island come true, the pirate ship, hook me, hook on me this time, the return home, when Wendy grew up, etcetera, etcetera.
(02:52):
This is the,
vintage classics version for those who are wondering as well. So let's jump into the themes and questions.
Why does this appeal to kids? What happens
when you grow up? What morals can perhaps we learn from these tales?
And to start off with, let's address the crocodile in the room.
Almost every character in this tale is a complete and utter asshole. Flying little assholes, in fact. And
(03:19):
in this can take
in in some shape or form. They're not all pure
assholes.
Peter definitely is. But mostly they show this via their communication
style,
emotional reactions to situations,
actions that they physically take,
and somewhat via their intent as well.
(03:39):
Now this is understandable if you're being being an asshole to your mortal enemies, and there are kind of a lot of danger and and things happening in this book, which you could go, okay, you can understand why they're you you might be construed as an asshole in this context. But really, it's when it is applied to their own friends
is where we see the real
(03:59):
asshole behavior coming out. And when I say asshole, I just mean like, they're not good people. They're not moral. They're they're they're rather mean.
And to give this some substantiation, let's look at some of the instances that happen. We have Peter locking Tinkerbell in a cupboard. We have Tim, Tinkerbell being more than happy to try and kill Wendy,
(04:21):
via lighting her up for gunshots when they're flying after, you know, meeting her in the day or two, earlier. We have Peter making his friends starve while playing make make believe. We have the mermaids not playing with the kids and,
doing all the things on their own. We have Peter bullying his friends while playing pirates and be becoming somewhat of a tyrant.
We have mister Darling punishing Nana, the dog, for his own embarrassment, because he doesn't like to take his medicine. We have Peter trying to shut the window,
(04:51):
and,
by doing so makes the kids think that their parents don't love them so that they will stay with him forever on Neverland.
We have Hook hooking his underlings and just straight up gangster murdering them.
We have Peter forgetting to visit Wendy every year and only showing up, you know, as he kind of feels like it and things.
(05:11):
It's
a constant show of heartlessness,
carelessness and cockiness. And,
I think we're perhaps in just my little explanations there. You might,
one in the comments also said, Peter literally forgets people when they're gone. Correct.
Are we noticing a pattern of who is the biggest asshole here?
(05:31):
I think we are
probably the only people that really come out of this book.
Net good,
Mrs. Darling,
Wendy, I would say,
and
animals like the Never Bird, which
try to help Peter when he's in a, you know, he saves Peter life or she saves Peter's life.
Probably she because she was the one laying the eggs.
(05:54):
And even then, you know, she's berating him and yelling at him when whilst trying to save his life. So, like, almost all situations, probably only the women in the book are the ones who really come out not looking like assholes. Now,
why is this? Why why do people why do the people and not only the kids, but the adults in the story behave like this?
(06:14):
And I think it's because it is this childlike
vision of Neverland that that's the real core of it.
Kids, you can understand of not really knowing what asshole behavior is because,
you know, you're just a kid. You're just reacting. You don't have the, I guess, like the consciousness
awareness to be able to realize like, oh, my actions have consequences and other people kind of feel the way that I feel. And if I'm feeling bad and I've I've hurt them, it's it's that's really my fault. And that empathy component is kind of lacking. And
(06:51):
so it Neverland's nice because it allows you to just
have whatever emotions happen
and you can indulge in them. So if you're envious, you can hurt people. If you're angry, you can shout and fight. If you're sleepy, you can just stop wherever and nap. If you're bored, you can annoy other people. If you're jealous, you can steal their stuff.
(07:12):
And it's all kind of permitted, and there's no real social consequences
or consequences
of any sort
for these things.
And if there are, there are kind of consequences, but they they they've not viewed in this real negative light. And so
it does show that the kids and Peter doing nice things for people. So Wendy, for example, when she's almost on death's door, they they build a house for her. And Peter does save Tiger Lily.
(07:40):
But
even though these actions were kind of good things, he does them for fun, not because they're a right, a righteous and good thing to do.
He does it for his own amusement. So, you know, even in this case, when he is doing nice things, he's not
he's not doing it with the intent of goodness. It's it's for his own selfishness. And Neverland is the place of selfishness. You can do whatever you want.
(08:06):
Now, look, there are bad things that happen in Neverland.
Hook kills multiple people.
The children do have bad experiences and
they do feel negative emotions, but it's all kind of whitewashed away. And I'll talk more about the style of this in the in the following section on the author.
But growing up in this view in this world is is kind of viewed as a bad thing,
(08:29):
not because of the responsibility
aspect,
but more because you can't indulge in these fleeting emotions. So,
you have to go to school and learn solemn things. Peter decries when
Mrs. Darling is trying to persuade him to to live in the real world.
And it also means
you can't believe anymore as Wendy loses her ability to fly once she grows up, she can't believe.
(08:54):
And it's almost like the
the scales falling over the eyes
falling from the eyes. If you're using a biblical context, which is the
once you see the truth, the truth cannot be unseen sort of deal. And this is why Peter wants to live in this world. He doesn't want exposure to the real world because
then he I think the knowledge of the truth and how he's acting and hurting people,
(09:18):
would would probably be untenable. He wouldn't be able to to live in that. And so,
you know, I think
when people grow up, it's
the the the understanding of that real world actions have real world consequences.
Whereas in Neverland, the death, the starvation, the kidnapping, the fighting, the pain, they all have this ambivalent
(09:41):
quality to them. They're not they're part of a grand venture. So
Peter, for example, is happiest when his friends are at death's door or have just been kidnapped by the pirates or someone's in danger.
And he's not, like, stressed out about this. He's just like, alright, sweet. Let's go. Let's get into action. There's gonna be awesome,
cool little adventure with very little thought of, like, oh, I could lose my best friend and, you know, never see them again or something like that. So I guess, like, what are the morals that you can take from this? Well,
(10:10):
who are the unhappiest characters in the book?
Sure. People have the,
momentary
ones of sadness. Mr. And Mrs. Darling, for example, when their kids have
been, you know, gone missing for an indeterminate period of time. And Nana, you could add to that as well. The
Lost Boys certainly
(10:31):
feel this loneliness of not having a mother.
And Wendy gets, you know, upset when they do things like stay past their bedtime
or things like this.
The
Hook's
subordinates
certainly feel fear for him and,
and pain when they're in fights and the native Indians and things like this as well. But no, the two unhappiest characters are certainly Peter Pan and Captain Hook. And Peter
(10:59):
in his moments of inactivity,
you know, right before he's going to bed,
right after all of his friends have left him and they want to go back to the real world, we see he is indeed this lost and sad boy and
is
kind of covering up all of his pain by going on these adventures and, you know, having fun fire sword fighting and having a mortal enemy of Captain Hook and things like this.
(11:25):
Nobody really loves him, and he is unlovable
because of his cockiness,
because of his arrogance,
because of his lack of care of other people.
You could almost
say that he's kind of bipolar in some respect in that his handling of emotions. He has no emotional stability. He's just all over the place.
(11:46):
Hook, on the other hand, is constantly terrified of this ever persistent ticking crocodile.
You know, you dive into, like, the Jordan Peter esque version of this and saying, like, it's a metaphor for time, and
he's worried about the, you know, the time clicking up to him and time's already got a hold of him. And I wish I could do a squeaky Jordan Peterson voice, but I I can't,
(12:08):
he just can't let go of this obsession that he has with Peter.
And
if he could, you know, he'd probably be fine. He'd still be a bad person because he's a pirate and you can see the way he treats his subordinates and stuff. But,
he this living in this world of perpetual,
perpetual
unaccountability,
(12:29):
in this fantasy world, I think is just
masking or trying to hide these inner pains that they're feeling. Or maybe they're having a grand time. What do I know? It's a it's a frickin' children's book, right? Like, you probably don't need to look into it too, too deeply.
So let's jump on into the author and perhaps some extra details.
James Matthew Barry, JM Barry, born in 1860, a Scottish novelist.
(12:53):
As I mentioned, this was a play,
first, which was then adapted into a book.
And it seemed like it was a very successful play of the of the time as well when it came out in the early nineteen hundreds,
people being attached to strings and wires and flying all over the stage and stuff. And you could say, okay, yeah, you know, it's a it's a good story. It's it is an interesting world and concept
(13:17):
because this was also in the era where
fantasy, I guess, was just becoming
a kind of a genre. You know, he was influenced by
one of the classic books, which was the one on the island of
Robinson Crusoe
by Daniel Defoe. You know, that that sort of thing was was a novelty. It was a rarity
(13:39):
of this kind of mixing of real world with fantasy,
whereas most
things before that were more purely, I guess, in the fantasy or mythical realm, if I had to put it. Now, the the character itself of Peter Pan was was somewhat muddled, modeled after his brother who had died when he was
kind of probably around, you know, Peter Pan's age, this 12 years. And his mother was heartbroken of losing her favorite child and
(14:06):
kind of
wanted,
Jay and Barry to to be his brother in some sort of respect.
And so this
motif of the ageless child, I guess, was
formed fry from probably these personal experiences in his life.
Little interesting tidbit here was he popularized the name Wendy. There were some examples of it beforehand, but
(14:29):
Wendy, the main car one of the main characters in this book, the the kind of motherly girl,
was not a popular name before this and was actually taken from, another child who was interacting with with JM Barrie and was saying trying to say friendly but couldn't pronounce the r. So it was like Fuendy Fuendy. And so he, got the name Wendy from that.
(14:51):
To kind of frame up all of this, I've seen multiple Peter Pan movies in my life, most of them when I was a kid, All of them when I was kid, actually.
So even though I'd never been
told this from what I can recall or read the book, certainly this was my first reading of it.
I knew kind of the general storyline,
(15:11):
but I didn't have the full context of everything was in here. So for example, I think Hook has been done a real disservice
in the
in the movies and
cartoons that I've watched him for him. Not only the physical descriptions, which I just completely wrong. So for example, his right hand should have the hook, not the left as is as is
(15:33):
written in the book, whereas in most of the things, it's the opposite.
And he's certainly not as silly
as
he'd been made out to be. His atmosphere is nowhere near as
dangerous and cutting as the image I gave to him in my mind's eye.
I kind of feel like he was a more complex character.
(15:54):
And but they made him just this sort of simple evil buffoon in the in the, animes and the movies, whereas I thought he had a actually had a bit of depth to him. You know, look at what they did to my boy.
So James,
the author, kind of made the narrator of this this snarky,
heartless, quippy guy who's making fun of everyone and everything.
(16:17):
I
haven't read out anything here. I wonder if I can find something real quick. Probably not. But there's certainly
pieces of this where he was making fun of everyone and everything, even if they had a good emotion and stuff like this.
And
while this is fun, I didn't realize just how
brutal and satirical
(16:39):
the book is. Like, many people die in this and many people experience a whole lot of pain. And I just wasn't ready for it, I guess.
And when I say satirical, I mean in the
ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices. There's a whole lot of that going on in this book. I, I thought it was more magical and fun and playful. Whereas when you're reading this, you're like, goddamn, it's like
(17:03):
not only are there a whole bunch of assholes in this, but the narrator himself is kind of
snarky is probably the the best way to put it.
Now, he does a great job of making this world come to life,
but I was surprised at how unlikable the characters are.
Peter's cockiness is the thing that drives captain hook to insanity, and I can see why that little shit is so annoying. Goddamn.
(17:28):
Being around him for
even five minutes would be too much.
Tinker Bell is just a ride on bitch. Like just pure bitch
who upon getting saved, for example,
immediately wants to fight the haters rather than the people who are rescued her. And when I say rescued her,
it was
(17:49):
little children cheering her on and clapping for her,
is is kind of what saved her when she drank some poison. So it's like, man, okay, these these characters are just so unlikable. How can you how can you root for them? Like, how how's this a story of like bad guys and good guys who are all bad guys?
For me, the most likable was actually Hook.
(18:09):
He he had morals. He was concerned about kind of good form versus bad form.
Yet also he wasn't afraid to break form by surprising the Indians by doing a sneak attack, for example.
I found him to be a complex character who I actually felt for, you know, the fear of the crocodile, the loneliness of command, this
deathly rage that he tries to keep a handle on leaders leadership skills that he shows to prevent a mutant mutiny.
(18:37):
The, I think, somewhat justifiable
crusade against Peter Pan.
You know, if he'd killed Peter, I'm not sure the world would have been that much a worse a place, you know? So
let's jump out of the
the summary. Similar books, recommendations, perhaps.
Look, it's a good book for creating a new world.
(18:57):
One of wonder for sure. Also, these brutal things that are somewhat made fun of. So
Neverland is a rather interesting place. I enjoyed the creation of this mystical island,
and I actually would have liked to know more about the quirks of this world. Like, for example,
what what happens with fairies? What what's their kind of deal? Because you hear of how there's fairies who are girls, there's boy fairies, and then there's these ones that are kind of like in between.
(19:26):
I'd like to know the pecking order of the beasts,
the backstory of the crocodile, for example,
why the mermaids behave the way they do. I love the world,
and I would have preferred the focus to be on that rather than the adventures of Peter
and kind of character development, because I don't think there's much character development. They're
(19:48):
they're they're shown to be assholes from the right, right at the start. And there's not a whole lot more going on beneath the surface.
I found I found them unlikable for the most part, but even worse,
boring. There was plenty of boring characters in this who I just went like,
like whatever, you know, the lost children or whatever, Tiger Lily, you know, like the character development that did go on, I found to be shallow. So,
(20:15):
I can't say I really connected with anyone apart from Hook. Does this make me a bad person?
Probably.
And I was not expecting the mature writing just to find within this, you know,
not only the jokes about Tinker Bell's,
Embon Point, which I learned is like curvy flesh of the woman or just curvy flesh, I guess, in general.
(20:36):
But fairies coming home from an orgy, for example, the killings, the scalpings, the poisonings.
If you're a kid and
reading this, I'm not sure what morals you take from this, and I'm really not sure what you learned because there's not a whole lot of good things going on in this book. So overall, I'm gonna give it a four and a half out of 10 Peter Pan by JM Barrie.
(20:57):
I don't yeah. It's it's a it's a strange book. I wasn't I wasn't really expecting
it
to be like it is.
And would I read it to, you know, children in the future? I'm not sure about it, to be honest, because I'm not I'm not sure what they can. Maybe, you know, maybe kids love it. And,
who knows? Who knows?
Similar books, recommendations.
(21:18):
I'm trying to think of a children's book which has this kind
of roughness to it, you know?
Yeah. Probably something like that. Robinson Crusoe is is about as close as you'll get. That's more mature writing because it's about a man and it's not about children.
Things like, you know, Pan the movie where it's it's kind of scary. It's got kids in it, but it's it's weird as well. Probably some of the old grim fairy tales would also
(21:46):
be similar
to, to these sorts of things.
So that's it for today. Thank you, everyone, for joining in. This is a value for value podcast
available anywhere, anytime,
for anyone.
No ads, no sponsorships, no things like that. All of this just juicy value coming straight at you. And we just ask that you return it in some shape or form
(22:07):
time by, you know, hitting the share button, joining live when I do these of word-of-mouth is really important to podcasts like this of talent. Give me your book recommendations. What did you like?
What do you think I would like? Maybe even your thoughts on on this book, I would love to hear. You can do that either in the YouTube comments or via reaching us out to us via any of the social media links down below. And then finally, Treasure. There is a PayPal link down below if you want to send us money for all the lights, camera equipment,
(22:39):
energy spent on these things and things like this. So
as I mentioned, I am live here
11AM
Australian Eastern Standard Time on a Wednesday. I'll be doing this for the next month, and then it's gonna be a bit haphazard while I'm traveling in Europe. We do have one joining us. He was just saying all the rights and royalties go to a hospital as well for this book, which is cool. Yeah. That's interesting.
(23:00):
I think it must be getting pretty close to entering public domain. So I don't know if the rights and royalties and and those sorts of things still
work like that.
Maybe
pub, you know, public domain, I guess, means you can just use the actual words, but perhaps there is still a copyright on the actual character of Peter Pan, the flying asshole,
himself.
(23:20):
He says listening to one x speed is crazy. I'm usually at two and a half year stuff.
Man, gonna melt your brain with that. So thank you very much, Juan, for for joining in at regular speed.
And,
what's coming up? I am reading Neuromancer at the moment by William Gibson.
I'm not sure what Juan's got. He's been pretty busy moving house, so that's why he hasn't really been putting out any book reviews. But I'm sure when he gets all that sorted in the next month,
(23:46):
maybe he'll have time because then, he's gonna be traveling as well. We're both traveling for his wedding, which is coming up
in June. So lots of exciting stuff going on for us. And we will try and keep these book reviews coming out
on a weekly basis. But, you know, there might be a a couple of months there where it's a little bit, haphazard.
So
thank you very much for joining in. I do hope you're having a fantastic day wherever you are in the world, in the real world, not in Neverland. And chaffing out. Carrying out. Bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com