April 8, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, join us for an out-of-this-world conversation as we sit down with retired NASA astronaut, Clay Anderson. With three decades of service at NASA under his belt, Clay shares his remarkable journey from the depths of space to the comfort of his hometown, where he now runs a museum.
Delve into the challenges of maintaining a work-life balance when your career takes you far from home for extended periods. From the cosmic highs of space exploration to the down-to-earth realities of transitioning careers, Clay offers invaluable insights on finding equilibrium and support both in the workplace and within your personal life. Tune in as we explore the cosmos of career transitions with one of NASA's finest.
Website: Mark Williams
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Check out Mark's Book: Lead, Don't Manage: 12 Lessons in Creating a Leadership Culture Based on Core Values
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Williams (00:07):
You're listening to Balance, Not Burnout, a
podcast helping leaders rethinkthe speed of their business. And
I'm your host, Mark Williams.
Join me as I explore the powerof a more intentional, balanced
approach to leadership. Thanksfor listening.
Hey, everybody, this is Balance,Not Burnout. I'm your host, Mark
(00:28):
Williams, CEO of BrokersInternational. And today, I have
a incredible pleasure ofspeaking to an astronaut. And
not many people, I think, takethat opportunity. So today we're
going to speak with ClayAnderson. So Clay currently is
the CEO and President of theStrategic Air Command and
Aerospace Museum. Clay is aretired astronaut, he spent 30
(00:52):
years with NASA, 167 days inspace, and completed six
spacewalks, which is prettyamazing. I don't think I've ever
had a conversation with anastronaut. So Clay, Welcome, and
thanks for joining the show.
Clayton Anderson (01:07):
Thank you, Mark. It's my pleasure to be
here. And I'm honored that youwould consider me worthy.
Mark Williams (01:13):
Sure. So I'm super, super, super interested
in talking to someone who hasspent so much time away from
your family. Number one, how doyou handle that? You know, for
all of us work life balance isusually eight to five, maybe
it's maybe it's a graveyardshift. And we have our families
for you. It's extended periodsof time away from your family,
(01:35):
which can be difficult. Butbefore we get into that, why
don't you talk a little bitabout how you got into astronaut
like your life in general, whichis so intriguing to me. How did
you end up becoming an astronautthat sounds like a like a kid
dream.
Clayton Anderson (01:47):
Somebody owed me a lot of money. And so that's
how I got in. But inseriousness, I come from
Ashland, Nebraska, very smalltown, between Omaha and Lincoln.
And as a kid, I was enamoredwith the space program I was
probably tied in or pulled inwith the Apollo eight mission
(02:07):
when my mom and dad awakened mybrother and sister and I and put
us on the floor in front of ablack and white TV. And we
watched on Christmas Eve in1968, as the Apollo eight guys
went behind the moon for thefirst time, and then came
outside or came out on the otherside of the Moon, I was pretty
much hooked. Then my motherwould say I was hooked three
years earlier, when I donned acostume that was created at home
(02:33):
of aluminum foil and a hat boxthat I marched in the parade as
a Mercury astronaut. So all ofthat was just being a kid,
right? And then I realized that,well, in order to do this, I
better go to school, I betterget educated, I probably am
going to need to have a job fora while. And then I'm gonna
(02:55):
figure out how to apply right,it's an application process,
just like, I mean, I think theform was the SF 171 The
government form the standardform 171 that we all had to fill
out. And of course, you know,that was back in the typewriter
wideout days. And I was justfortunate enough to get
selected. It's, it's kind of along process for me, I applied
(03:22):
15 times over 15 years anddidn't even get a sniff until
you're 13 When I got interviewedfor the first time. And that was
when I actually knew that Imight be seriously considered.
And so I didn't really change myfocus, I just continued to
apply. I continued to try to dothe best I could at work. And
then eventually, in year 15,they graciously selected me as
(03:45):
the first and currently onlyastronaut from the state of
Nebraska.
Mark Williams (03:50):
Awesome, fantastic. amazing to me, and
talk a little bit about whichmaybe people don't know, but the
training to be an astronaut. Idon't even know what's involved
with that. But I'm assuming it'sa huge amount of training and
the timeframe before you evenget to space. What is that like?
Clayton Anderson (04:08):
So as a baby astronaut, which is my hashtag
phrase on Twitter. I think thetraining is general at first. So
my analogy is to consider whenyou go into the military and you
do basic training, right as thefirst two years as astronauts,
we spent a lot of time gettingto know each other. We spent
(04:29):
time traveling to all of theNASA centers to figure out what
exactly they do for NASA. Hespent a lot of time in basic
classes and lectures, which someof them were good, some of them
sucked. But the idea was to giveyou general basic knowledge that
would allow you to grow as anastronaut for example, we got
(04:50):
media training, so if you'venever talked to the media, then
we they brought in a consultantand he trained us for a week on
how to do press cetacean how todo an interview what happens if
you get accosted by a nastyreporter with a mic in your
face, right? All those kinds ofthings. And then we learned to
fly in the T 38. That wasprobably one of the most
(05:13):
exciting and fun things for mewas to be able to get into a two
engine jet that the Air Forceuses to train their pilots.
Those kinds of things were bothexciting, but sometimes they
were tedious, right? A lot ofmemorization, lotta reading a
lot of studying a lot exams. Wewere one of the first groups of
(05:36):
astronauts selected that had todo exams. And that was kind of
silly, actually. But you know,they watched us with video
because they they had had rumorsof cheating and, you know, crap
like that, that. Come on. We'resupposed to be the best of the
best. Why would we cheat? Right?
Yeah. I remember my first exam.
(05:59):
We were all in the room. 32 ofus. And it was a paper exam,
right? And I went through theexam and like five minutes, and
I was done. And I looked at it,I go, I screwed this up. I had
to screwed up. I went throughand I checked all my answers
again. And I was done. I this,they're all good. I can't do
anything. Right. I got up and Iwalked down the room as the
(06:19):
first one out of the room with31. superstars, right. And I
just felt like I'd made somehorrible mistake, but it would
turn out I didn't miss anyquestions on the test. So then
that was when I first toldmyself I belonged. Yeah, I
wasn't quite sure I belonged atfirst. But when that happened,
Yeah, I'm good.
Mark Williams (06:41):
If you don't mind, touch a little bit on your
personal life. Balancing beingaway from home. You're married.
I don't know if you have kids,but like describe the family
life and how that it the supportthat you have, obviously, when
you come home, but just comingback home after being gone for
periods of time? How do youbalance that spend time with the
(07:02):
family and then knowing thatyou're number one, you're going
to space, which has its ownrisks and concerns and safety
and all of that. I'm justinterested in how you balance
that and keep focus at work,especially when you're going to
periods of time and how do youstay connected with your family.
Clayton Anderson (07:20):
So first of all, I'm married to Susan. We're
in our 32nd year of
Mark Williams (07:26):
marriage.
Congratulations. Wonderful.
Clayton Anderson (07:28):
Thank you. I have two children. Cole. He's 27
and Sutton will be 23 in acouple of weeks. Cole lives and
works with his wife, Mary Katetwo is a doctor. They live in
Omaha and then our daughter,Sutton. She's modeling and
working in Arlington, Texas. Oh,what I would tell people is, you
(07:52):
know, the key to this is mywife. She's pretty much amazing.
She's intelligent, she'sindependent. She's strong
willed. She's extremelygorgeous. And she's just, she's
what I needed, right? There's noway I could have done this
without her. And as then as thekids grew up them as my family
(08:13):
and my support structure. Youknow, when you become an
astronaut, I was used to be aNASA engineer, and going into
work at eight and coming home atfive typically, yeah, I might
have to take a trip sometimes.
Or I might have to work late orI might have to work on a
weekend or something. But notvery often. Right. So life was
pretty good in suburbia. Thekids were doing their thing,
(08:34):
Little League and dance and iceskating and all those kinds of
things. And Susan, and Ibasically split the duties of
the household. And but we weregood partners. As parents, I
think, in that we always talkthings out, right? It wasn't
gonna tell your dad or go askyour dad or go ask your mom, it
(08:56):
was alright, we need to come toa consensus as mom and dad and
deal with that going forward. Soso that was pretty normal, I
think for most people. But thenwhen I became an astronaut, it
changed dramatically. I wastraveling a lot I was stressed.
Mark Williams (09:16):
And you might be asking what at what age were
your kids when you became anastronaut? When you really
started having extended periodsaway? How
Clayton Anderson (09:22):
old were your kids at that point? Cole was six
and Sutton was two. Oh, so
Mark Williams (09:26):
they were little so that. So a lot of the a lot
of the day to day.
Responsibilities really defineyour wife?
Clayton Anderson (09:34):
Yes. And so it just a quick timeline. When I
became an astronaut. They weresix and two. And that's roughly
when I started to train and gointo Russia. Then when I first
flew, they were 10 and six. WhenI flew the second time they were
14 and 10. So you get a kind ofa timeline of you know, most of
(09:55):
their young lives. I was anastronaut traveling and doing
stuff Which meant that theresponsibilities of the
household of transportation ofyard work of maintenance of
hospitalization, all that stufffell on Sue. So much so that Sue
a 40 hour employee with astellar career at NASA Johnson
Space Center, and moving up theladder, had to pull back and go
(10:19):
to a 30 hour a week workschedule, such that she could
take care of the kids. So thatwas the first indication of what
a wonderful human she was, or isbecause she gave up her career
and sacrificed her goal goals sothat I could chase mine. And
most most people don'tunderstand that right? A lot of
(10:41):
the military spouses of theirastronauts, that's what they
did. Anyway, they took care ofthe family. The dude flew jets
where we flew or was on anaircraft carrier deployed to
Afghanistan, whatever it was,the spouse, the female typically
took care of the family. Well,for us, that was a new, a nuance
for us a different lifestylechange. And she handled it
(11:05):
beautifully. I'm not sure Ihandled it as well, because I
was constantly under stress. Andso when I would come home, I
couldn't leave work at theoffice. Right? Yeah, it became
difficult. And so my hot buttonswere much more sensitive with
the kids. And I wish I couldhave all that back. Right. I
(11:27):
wish I could go back and dothis, again, understanding that
what happened to me and make itright, make it better. But of
course, you can.
Mark Williams (11:38):
So describe for me, that's a great segue. And I
really appreciate yourfrankness, I do quite a bit of
traveling as well. It's sloweddown a little bit. But I used to
spend 4548 weeks out of the yearon the road, Monday through
Friday, definitely takes a tollon the family for sure. And
every time I come home, I feellike I'm reconnecting and
reestablishing. But I'm curiousin your situation. For you
(12:00):
personally. How did you how didyou manage the the lows? And
I'll call that a burnout in itsown way. Sometimes it's just you
haven't seen the family? Youhaven't seen the kids at work?
It obviously is a heavy load.
How do you How did you mentallyand maybe even physically take
the breaks or keep yourself,keep your mind? Right?
Clayton Anderson (12:22):
Two things.
One will be a story of, youknow, exercise was important to
me. And, you know, the way Idealt with depression or
absenteeism from the family is Iworked out all the time, I was
in way better shape back inthose days than I am now. And
it's disappointing to me incertain aspect, because I simply
(12:43):
the time constraint is differentnow. But the other thing, I'll
tell you a story, it didn'tbecome hugely difficult until I
was assigned to fly on theInternational Space Station.
Well, as soon as that wasdirected, that meant I had to
travel internationally, andmostly to Russia. And, and so I
(13:05):
remember very clearly, my firsttrip to Russia, was in the
winter, January, February. Andwhen I arrived in Moscow, we got
in a van, I came to the strengthof the airport, right? I walk
out, I have no idea what thehell is going on where I am, I
(13:26):
find this guy who's got my nameon a sign his name is a theme.
He speaks no English, but he ismy driver to get me in the van
to take me to a grocery store,where I'm supposed to buy my own
food, because we're going toStar City where they train
cosmonauts. And I'm going tolive in an American built
cottage built by the Russian AirForce. And I'm going to have to
(13:48):
live on my own right. So I getthere. And as we drive in this
van, at in the dark in thewintertime, we stopped at an
intersection because there was adead body lathe. Oh my gosh,
with a military guy holding amachine gun standing over this
body and I'm thinking, holycrap, what have
Unknown (14:12):
I done? Welcome to Russia.
Clayton Anderson (14:16):
And then we get to the place and I go
through, you know, my first Idon't even know if it was my
first week or first couple ofweeks. But you you were
typically overseas for four tofive weeks. Wow. And in those
four to five weeks, typically inAmerica, it would have been
packed with training. But theRussians don't have as many
(14:38):
simulators. They don't have asmuch or as good at turnaround
time. And so there's a lot ofdead time in that four to five
weeks, bro. That's when youthink about your family. Right
You bet. This was pre cellphone. This was in order to have
a teleconference with yourfamily. You had to go out and
(14:58):
you had to go to it store likeBest Buy, and you had to buy a
camera that was gonna sit on thetop your laptop, and you had to
load all this crappy software,and then you're in Russia, so
you had to hope it would workwith the internet, right? That
was still shaky because we wereplugged into the ethernet cables
on the wall, not Wi Fi anywhere.
And so to get all that to workand to be able to see the kids
(15:19):
and not have their views,pixelated, and you know, and
frozen in the middle of themtalking to you, it was very
difficult. So let me go to thestory real quick. So I'm feeling
pretty, pretty low. I'm prettydepressed. I'm, it's freezing
cold, it's dark all the time.
And I'm thinking, What the hellhave I done? Well, one of the
(15:40):
astronauts said, Hey, we'regoing to the club at the caf art
gallery in Moscow this weekendon Saturday, would you like to
go? And I'm thinking, Well, do Ireally want to go to an art
gallery? No. But do I want toget out of this place? Yeah. So
I went. And I'm a man of faith,I have a very strong belief in
(16:00):
God. And it turns out in thismuseum, I bought a book, a guide
book. And we've kind ofseparated off and did our thing
and said, we'll meet back atwhatever time I walked through a
door into a room. And I turnedaround and I saw this massive
painting on the wall. It wasframed in a big, fat, thick gold
(16:23):
ornate frame, right? It had tobe my memory says 10 feet tall,
this picture probably wasn'tthat big. But as I looked at it,
it's Christ. And he's sitting ona stone in the middle of the
wilderness. And the name of thepainting is Christos, napus,
Taenia. And that means Christ inthe desert, right? So this is
(16:45):
when Christ did his 40 days, 40nights of penance in the desert,
right. And it was painted byIvan cram school, a Russian
artist, and it was amazing. AndI stared at it for 30 minutes. I
just stood there and stared atit. Any you know, as I as I
looked at the painting, and Ilooked at Christ face, which was
(17:06):
long and thin, and drawn andpale, and sad, and his
fingernails were long and hishand was in his ears, chin was
in his hand, and he was sittingon this rock, with just a sheet
or a cloth around his body. AllI could think of was, hey, if
you can do that, for me, I cando this for you. And that was a
(17:31):
turning point for me, mentally,so much so that I tried to chase
down a print of this painting,which I couldn't find anywhere,
I may have to go look again, nowthat I think about it, but I
couldn't find it anywhere. And Iwanted to give it to my pastor
from my church in Webster,Texas, because when I left to go
(17:54):
on my training trip, he was mypastor. But then in the middle
of my trip, he left, he wasgone, he went to a new church.
And I never said goodbye. Andthat was hugely important to me,
it was more important to mywife, she was pretty angry, cuz
she knew our relationship waspretty tight. Excuse me. And so
(18:20):
I commissioned someone to Paintme a copy of that painting, such
that I could take it to him inLexington, Kentucky, where he
ended up at the University ofKentucky at the collegiate
Methodist Church, I found a wayto get to Kentucky to speak to a
group such that I could attendchurch on that Sunday and
(18:41):
present it to him in front ofthe congregation and tell them
the story. So
Mark Williams (18:47):
that really, you really found your inspiration in
that which is awesome.
Congratulations for that. Let'stransition a little bit so you
have this incredible career onlyastronaut from Nebraska, you you
have six spacewalks. Incredible,then you leave, leave, I don't
leave the astronaut and businessI guess you'd call it and now
you're running a museum. Talkabout a total 180. From what
(19:09):
you've been used to talk alittle bit about that
transition. How did you end upat the museum and maybe some
challenges that are that maybesome of our listeners,
obviously, we don't have a lotof astronaut listeners, probably
so many more in business. It'sinteresting to go from such an
interesting career to somethingdifferent, a little more
business ish, I'll call it um,talk to us a little bit about
(19:30):
that the transition and maybesome of the challenges that you
had at the beginning, trulybecoming a I'll call it a
running a business as opposed tobeing an astronaut.
Clayton Anderson (19:41):
So I retired from NASA in 2013, and was
basically retired for until2022, playing some golf, writing
some books and being pretty mucha slug. I think my wife noticed
more than anything. But I willsay running a museum is way
harder than being an astronaut.
And the other buzz phrase I useis that, you know, if people
(20:04):
look at me and say, Well, youdon't know anything about
running in a museum, my responseto them is, well, I didn't know
a whole lot about being anastronaut. And that turned out
pretty well. Good answer. And Ibelieve I'm not a genius, but
I'm slightly above average andintelligence. So I'm a good
learner, a quick learner. And Ihave a lot of good help, right.
(20:29):
And so my goal, and I wasrecruited to come do this job.
It wasn't like I put in anapplication, I was on the board
of directors at the museum. Mygoal was to basically try to
bring NASA artifacts to themuseum to, you know, enhance the
displays. It wasn't until peoplestarted to whisper in my ear
(20:50):
that we'd like you to considerrunning this place that I
thought, well, this is kind ofstrange. Why would you be
wanting me to, to do this. Andso it would turn out that the
previous leader here, resigned,and went back to the East Coast.
And they needed a new leader,and some entrepreneurs in Omaha.
(21:13):
12 of them actually flew down toHouston to court, my wife and I,
for a couple of days andconvinced me to come back home
and take this job, which I did.
But when I got here in May,there was a lot of, Wow, did I
(21:34):
do the right thing? Sure. Weprayed a lot about it. We talked
a lot about it. We talked to ourchildren about the opportunity,
I talked to two of my closestand dearest friends in the world
in Houston. And it was a Godthing for me that I'm working in
a museum built on a hill that Iused to crawl on when I was a
youngster. The museum opened itsdoors in May of 1998, one month
(21:58):
before NASA called and asked meto become the first Nebraska
astronaut, the museum is builtin my hometown. Because my
brother here, my son's workinghere, my uncle's the mayor of
the town, and museums in mysister just down the road, you
know, everything came fullcircle. Sure. And coming home
(22:19):
seemed to be the right thing todo. Now, one year and nine
months or so into this endeavor.
I believe with all my heart, I'msupposed to be here doing this.
And that. This is where I'mgoing to finish my career.
Mark Williams (22:35):
First, let me applaud you on. You read a lot
about people at older ages,changing careers, obviously,
you've done that successfully.
So congratulations. And you'vedone it in to talk about totally
different environments, frombeing an astronaut, which again,
I mean, you and I could talk forhours about just the training
(22:56):
and your your walks and all ofthat. And then you go into this
business. In my experience, oneof the toughest parts about
running a business is findinggood people. And you alluded to
that, right? It's finding a goodteam. I don't even want to call
it a support system. It'sliterally finding a good team.
And unfortunately, I think forme, my experience has been most
(23:16):
people can do a job, right? Soif you apply for a job and you
have a basic skill set, Ibelieve that most people can can
learn and do and do most jobs.
What I have found is usuallywhen someone doesn't work out,
it's a culture fit. It's aculture issue, not necessarily
(23:38):
that they couldn't perform thejob. It's not that personality
didn't fit the flavor of theorganization. For whatever
reason, right sometimes it'sit's I made a bad hire. I just
didn't didn't do my homework.
Sometimes it's maybe it's amismatch of personalities within
teams. That doesn't, thatdoesn't seem to jive. I'm
curious in your world, comparingthe astronaut business where
(24:00):
you're spending these hugeamounts of time with people that
were strangers that have becomeI'm assuming closer, but you
don't get to choose thosepeople, right? Those are people
that you're in a class with.
They were they were selected indifferent personalities. And now
you're in a business whereyou're selecting your support
team, describe me a little bitof the differences there.
(24:21):
Because in one, you're kind offorced to work with those that
are with you. And here you getto make the decisions. And if
you make the wrong one, it's onyou. And that's a little bit
different mindset. But
Clayton Anderson (24:30):
it's totally correct. Right. As an astronaut,
and this has been a toughstruggle for me, as an astronaut
I work with highly trained,highly capable, highly educated,
highly motivated, typicallypeople now they weren't all that
way. I mean, you know, you haveyour few, I mean, it is a
government installation afterall nouns. And so you have those
(24:51):
dudes that stand by the pond andthrow bread in the pond all day
and you know, and they'regetting paid a great government
salary. We had those people Butfor the most part, the mentality
there is different. It's acomplex team made up of very
highly educated and highlymotivated folks whose goal is a
mission, right? The missioncould be designed in a
(25:12):
spacesuit, it could be, youknow, sending a shuttle to the
space station, it could bebuilding the space station are
doing a spacewalk. But all ofthose things have consequences
and have typically have humanlife on the end of the spear.
And so that focus is what drivespeople to succeed. Now, you may
not go to party with those folksafterwards, or spend time with
(25:34):
them on the weekends. But whenwhen the poop hits the fan,
those are the people you counton. And yeah, they weren't given
to you, you weren't allowed toselect them. And selecting
astronaut cruisers is blackmagic to me. But typically, that
motivational factor allows youto get through what you need to
get through and solve theproblem. So now go to where I am
(25:56):
today. And you're right, it'stotally different, as as a
leader of this museum, andtrying to build a business
mindset and manager mindset.
It's one of those things whereI've heard the term the right
person on the right seat on theright bus, right. I think
everybody that's read managementbooks, has heard that it doesn't
(26:19):
work that way. It does if you'rea very wealthy organization. So
if you find that right person,for the right seat on your bus,
you can steal them, you can say,hey, I want you to come work for
me, I'll give you a double thesalary and three times a
vacation, and they come. But inmy situation, I'm looking for a
good person in a seat on ourbus. Yeah, that's what I need. I
(26:42):
need a good person, I needsomebody I can coach and I can
mentor because like you said,people can do the job. I mean,
good God run a museum and Ain'tRocket Science, right. And so if
I find that good person who'swilling to grow and has passion
for what we do, and sees thevision for where we want to go,
(27:02):
I just need loyalty for two orthree or four years right to
stay with me for a little while.
So I can build some momentum.
And so now we're we're workingto build a strong, dedicated,
loyal, loyal is a big word tome, your team that will hang
with me for a while and help mesee this through. If I have to
(27:23):
keep hiring people all the time,and all we do is interview and
hire and then get rid of andthen hire again. That's gonna
make it really rough down theroad. Yeah, for sure.
Mark Williams (27:37):
An amazing, amazing career. When you look
back on the things that you'vedone, including what you're
doing now running, running amuseum, which is dear, obviously
dear to your heart, what themuseum stands for? What would
you say you're most proud of youhave an incredible career. When
you look back, and you say, Wow,this is this? I did this. What
(27:58):
do you beat your chest done?
Clayton Anderson (28:02):
Oh, that's a good question. It's a tough
question. I guess if you forcedme to say one thing. I would say
that there is no one, no singlehuman that's more proud than me,
to be Nebraska's astronaut to befrom Nebraska to be home in
Nebraska giving back to thestate and the people and the
(28:25):
communities that made me theperson I am today. I've always
tried to help others. And I'mtrying to give back now and I
don't have a bazillion dollars,I would love to be able to
donate a Brazilian to somethingright and build a building or a
dorm or put my name on ascholarship or whatever it would
be. I can't do that. I'm agovernment employee. But I can
(28:48):
give back. And what I'm choosingto do is to come home and give
back to that community thatraised me. You know, I tell the
story a lot about the first timeI was on the space station. I
was looking forward to flyingover Nebraska and taking a bunch
of photos of my hometown and Ilooked at the computer that said
(29:09):
our trajectory was going to takeus right between Omaha and
Lincoln, which would beabsolutely perfect. And so I
planned I set a timer I putcameras all around the window
and velcroed it and I had freshbatteries and I had digital
cards image cards because I wasgoing to take a bazillion photos
right. And as I leaned down inthe window and you kind of get a
perspective with this hurricanebehind me on the podcast is you
(29:32):
have to lay down kind of in lookto the right or left to see
where you are and see whereyou're traveling over the earth.
And so it took me a while to getmy bearings as we came in over
the Northwest United States. AndI had to find the Missouri River
and some of the dammed lakes onthe river to make sure I was
looking in the right place.
Follow it down to the to theMissouri that squiggles between
(29:54):
Iowa and Nebraska and then findOmaha you The biggest landmark I
wouldn't know. Right? Sure. AndLincoln, well, they're just big
gray blobs on the earth withyour naked eye. They don't, you
know, they don't stand out withbig Omaha, Omaha. Lincoln
doesn't have a star where thecapital is right. And the Platte
River doesn't have theitalicized Platte River written
(30:15):
on it that we remember from Mapsas a kid. So as we flew down,
and I was starting to see andfigure out that we were coming
down the Missouri River, andthen I could finally see that
big gray blob called OMA ha,well, the South Bend of the
Platte River is right where Igrew up. And so as I looked and
found that, I thought I wasgonna take a ton of pictures.
(30:36):
Well, I didn't take a singlepicture, I just cried. I was 230
miles above my home with allthose people, that meant so much
to me. Sure. Below me, and Ijust couldn't do it. And I just
floated there and watched and ofcourse, it moves by really
(30:57):
quickly, five miles everysecond. So, you know, within a
minute or two, they were it wasgone is gone. And it wouldn't be
until the next time I had thatopportunity that that I was
emotionally stable enough to beable to actually take the
photos. So yeah, that was a veryemotional time for me. Sure.
Mark Williams (31:18):
Well, clay, I asked every guest this question.
It's a Saturday or a Sundaymorning, you have no
responsibilities, you can dowhat you'd like and be with whom
you'd like, describe for me yourperfect Saturday morning or
Sunday morning.
Clayton Anderson (31:33):
You know, one thing I miss that I don't do
enough, and I want to try to domore is I don't read as much as
I used to. It would be reallycool. If I could wake up have a
nice steaming cup of coffee, andmaybe just sit for an hour and
read. I like to learn but Itypically read fun books like
(31:55):
Jack Clancy and Jack Ryan, youknow, the and I love John
Grisham. And I love Nevada bar.
I don't know if people know whoshe is. But she writes murder
mysteries. And she's a dearfriend of mine. And I love to
read her books. And then there'sa guy named Tom Abrams down in
Houston, who's an ABC TV anchor.
(32:17):
But he also is a great author.
He writes really fun, fast.
books that I just love to read.
My problem is I get into a fewfew pages and I'm falling
asleep. You me both. So if Icould sleep lay, and then have a
nice steaming cup of coffee andmaybe sit outside and good
weather and read a book for anhour. I think that would be
(32:38):
pretty nice. And I'm going towork to try to do that. The
other thing would be justspending time with my wife and
kids and but they like to. Theylike to be on the go. And
sometimes dad just wants to kindof chill.
Mark Williams (32:53):
I get it.
Congratulations. Me too. Goodcup of coffee. Nice book and
relaxation. Sounds wonderful.
Well, I can't thank you enoughClay Anderson astronaut. over 30
years spent with NASA, thank youvery much for being a guest. I
want to again, give a shout outto the Strategic Air Command and
Aerospace Museum. Clay is theCEO and president of that
(33:15):
organization. So if you have anyinterest in space and NASA and
all of the things that revolvearound that world, please seek
out Clay Anderson and the museumin is it Ashland, Nebraska?
Clayton Anderson (33:29):
Yeah, Ashland, Nebraska. And I would give you a
couple of websites if the museumis sac SAIC museum.org. It's
pretty easy to find. And then mywebsite is ASTRO clay.com. And
if you just Google Astro clay onthe Google search bar of your
choice, while Wait, I just kindof advertising for Google on the
(33:51):
search bar search engine of yourchoice, Astro play.com. You can
pretty much find everything thatgoes with me. And yeah, we would
welcome anyone to learn about usto come visit us. If you go to
the visitors desk, you mightsay, Hey, is the astronaut here
today and because if I am, I'llcome out and say hi, and we're
one of the few museums in theentire world that you can meet
(34:14):
an astronaut. Fantastic.
Mark Williams (34:16):
So my takeaways for clay specifically, if you
want to switch careers, afteryou've had one, definitely
doable. And Clay is a testamentto that. Also, so, so far,
right? A man that lived hisboyhood dream, which I think is
just an amazing story in itself.
You dress up as an astronaut andyou become an astronaut. That's
pretty amazing. And finally,what I think the most important
(34:38):
lesson here is a support system.
Clay has chosen several careersthat really require good support
people, not only personally butprofessionally as well. I wish
you the best of luck. Clay.
Thank you very much for being aguest on the show. And for all
of our listeners. Thanks againfor listening into Balance, Not
Burnout and hopefully we've gotGot a couple of tips to make
(35:00):
lives a little bit easier. Takecare everybody. Thanks for
listening. If you think balanceis as important as I do, at work
and all throughout your life,help the show out by leaving me
a five star review following meon social media, or sharing the
podcast with someone you thinkwould appreciate it. If you have
comments or questions, I'd lovefor you to join the conversation
with me on LinkedIn. I want tothank OBI Creative for producing
(35:22):
the podcast and Swells Beats forgetting the music for me. Thanks
for sharing your time with metoday. And until next time, this
is Mark signing off.
You're listening to Balance, Not Burnout, a
podcast helping leaders rethinkthe speed of their business. And
I'm your host, Mark Williams.
Join me as I explore the powerof a more intentional, balanced
approach to leadership. Thanksfor listening.
Hey, everybody, this is Balance,Not Burnout. I'm your host, Mark
(00:28):
Williams, CEO of BrokersInternational. And today, I have
a incredible pleasure ofspeaking to an astronaut. And
not many people, I think, takethat opportunity. So today we're
going to speak with ClayAnderson. So Clay currently is
the CEO and President of theStrategic Air Command and
Aerospace Museum. Clay is aretired astronaut, he spent 30
(00:52):
years with NASA, 167 days inspace, and completed six
spacewalks, which is prettyamazing. I don't think I've ever
had a conversation with anastronaut. So Clay, Welcome, and
thanks for joining the show.
Clayton Anderson (01:07):
Thank you, Mark. It's my pleasure to be
here. And I'm honored that youwould consider me worthy.
Mark Williams (01:13):
Sure. So I'm super, super, super interested
in talking to someone who hasspent so much time away from
your family. Number one, how doyou handle that? You know, for
all of us work life balance isusually eight to five, maybe
it's maybe it's a graveyardshift. And we have our families
for you. It's extended periodsof time away from your family,
(01:35):
which can be difficult. Butbefore we get into that, why
don't you talk a little bitabout how you got into astronaut
like your life in general, whichis so intriguing to me. How did
you end up becoming an astronautthat sounds like a like a kid
dream.
Clayton Anderson (01:47):
Somebody owed me a lot of money. And so that's
how I got in. But inseriousness, I come from
Ashland, Nebraska, very smalltown, between Omaha and Lincoln.
And as a kid, I was enamoredwith the space program I was
probably tied in or pulled inwith the Apollo eight mission
(02:07):
when my mom and dad awakened mybrother and sister and I and put
us on the floor in front of ablack and white TV. And we
watched on Christmas Eve in1968, as the Apollo eight guys
went behind the moon for thefirst time, and then came
outside or came out on the otherside of the Moon, I was pretty
much hooked. Then my motherwould say I was hooked three
years earlier, when I donned acostume that was created at home
(02:33):
of aluminum foil and a hat boxthat I marched in the parade as
a Mercury astronaut. So all ofthat was just being a kid,
right? And then I realized that,well, in order to do this, I
better go to school, I betterget educated, I probably am
going to need to have a job fora while. And then I'm gonna
(02:55):
figure out how to apply right,it's an application process,
just like, I mean, I think theform was the SF 171 The
government form the standardform 171 that we all had to fill
out. And of course, you know,that was back in the typewriter
wideout days. And I was justfortunate enough to get
selected. It's, it's kind of along process for me, I applied
(03:22):
15 times over 15 years anddidn't even get a sniff until
you're 13 When I got interviewedfor the first time. And that was
when I actually knew that Imight be seriously considered.
And so I didn't really change myfocus, I just continued to
apply. I continued to try to dothe best I could at work. And
then eventually, in year 15,they graciously selected me as
(03:45):
the first and currently onlyastronaut from the state of
Nebraska.
Mark Williams (03:50):
Awesome, fantastic. amazing to me, and
talk a little bit about whichmaybe people don't know, but the
training to be an astronaut. Idon't even know what's involved
with that. But I'm assuming it'sa huge amount of training and
the timeframe before you evenget to space. What is that like?
Clayton Anderson (04:08):
So as a baby astronaut, which is my hashtag
phrase on Twitter. I think thetraining is general at first. So
my analogy is to consider whenyou go into the military and you
do basic training, right as thefirst two years as astronauts,
we spent a lot of time gettingto know each other. We spent
(04:29):
time traveling to all of theNASA centers to figure out what
exactly they do for NASA. Hespent a lot of time in basic
classes and lectures, which someof them were good, some of them
sucked. But the idea was to giveyou general basic knowledge that
would allow you to grow as anastronaut for example, we got
(04:50):
media training, so if you'venever talked to the media, then
we they brought in a consultantand he trained us for a week on
how to do press cetacean how todo an interview what happens if
you get accosted by a nastyreporter with a mic in your
face, right? All those kinds ofthings. And then we learned to
fly in the T 38. That wasprobably one of the most
(05:13):
exciting and fun things for mewas to be able to get into a two
engine jet that the Air Forceuses to train their pilots.
Those kinds of things were bothexciting, but sometimes they
were tedious, right? A lot ofmemorization, lotta reading a
lot of studying a lot exams. Wewere one of the first groups of
(05:36):
astronauts selected that had todo exams. And that was kind of
silly, actually. But you know,they watched us with video
because they they had had rumorsof cheating and, you know, crap
like that, that. Come on. We'resupposed to be the best of the
best. Why would we cheat? Right?
Yeah. I remember my first exam.
(05:59):
We were all in the room. 32 ofus. And it was a paper exam,
right? And I went through theexam and like five minutes, and
I was done. And I looked at it,I go, I screwed this up. I had
to screwed up. I went throughand I checked all my answers
again. And I was done. I this,they're all good. I can't do
anything. Right. I got up and Iwalked down the room as the
(06:19):
first one out of the room with31. superstars, right. And I
just felt like I'd made somehorrible mistake, but it would
turn out I didn't miss anyquestions on the test. So then
that was when I first toldmyself I belonged. Yeah, I
wasn't quite sure I belonged atfirst. But when that happened,
Yeah, I'm good.
Mark Williams (06:41):
If you don't mind, touch a little bit on your
personal life. Balancing beingaway from home. You're married.
I don't know if you have kids,but like describe the family
life and how that it the supportthat you have, obviously, when
you come home, but just comingback home after being gone for
periods of time? How do youbalance that spend time with the
(07:02):
family and then knowing thatyou're number one, you're going
to space, which has its ownrisks and concerns and safety
and all of that. I'm justinterested in how you balance
that and keep focus at work,especially when you're going to
periods of time and how do youstay connected with your family.
Clayton Anderson (07:20):
So first of all, I'm married to Susan. We're
in our 32nd year of
Mark Williams (07:26):
marriage.
Congratulations. Wonderful.
Clayton Anderson (07:28):
Thank you. I have two children. Cole. He's 27
and Sutton will be 23 in acouple of weeks. Cole lives and
works with his wife, Mary Katetwo is a doctor. They live in
Omaha and then our daughter,Sutton. She's modeling and
working in Arlington, Texas. Oh,what I would tell people is, you
(07:52):
know, the key to this is mywife. She's pretty much amazing.
She's intelligent, she'sindependent. She's strong
willed. She's extremelygorgeous. And she's just, she's
what I needed, right? There's noway I could have done this
without her. And as then as thekids grew up them as my family
(08:13):
and my support structure. Youknow, when you become an
astronaut, I was used to be aNASA engineer, and going into
work at eight and coming home atfive typically, yeah, I might
have to take a trip sometimes.
Or I might have to work late orI might have to work on a
weekend or something. But notvery often. Right. So life was
pretty good in suburbia. Thekids were doing their thing,
(08:34):
Little League and dance and iceskating and all those kinds of
things. And Susan, and Ibasically split the duties of
the household. And but we weregood partners. As parents, I
think, in that we always talkthings out, right? It wasn't
gonna tell your dad or go askyour dad or go ask your mom, it
(08:56):
was alright, we need to come toa consensus as mom and dad and
deal with that going forward. Soso that was pretty normal, I
think for most people. But thenwhen I became an astronaut, it
changed dramatically. I wastraveling a lot I was stressed.
Mark Williams (09:16):
And you might be asking what at what age were
your kids when you became anastronaut? When you really
started having extended periodsaway? How
Clayton Anderson (09:22):
old were your kids at that point? Cole was six
and Sutton was two. Oh, so
Mark Williams (09:26):
they were little so that. So a lot of the a lot
of the day to day.
Responsibilities really defineyour wife?
Clayton Anderson (09:34):
Yes. And so it just a quick timeline. When I
became an astronaut. They weresix and two. And that's roughly
when I started to train and gointo Russia. Then when I first
flew, they were 10 and six. WhenI flew the second time they were
14 and 10. So you get a kind ofa timeline of you know, most of
(09:55):
their young lives. I was anastronaut traveling and doing
stuff Which meant that theresponsibilities of the
household of transportation ofyard work of maintenance of
hospitalization, all that stufffell on Sue. So much so that Sue
a 40 hour employee with astellar career at NASA Johnson
Space Center, and moving up theladder, had to pull back and go
(10:19):
to a 30 hour a week workschedule, such that she could
take care of the kids. So thatwas the first indication of what
a wonderful human she was, or isbecause she gave up her career
and sacrificed her goal goals sothat I could chase mine. And
most most people don'tunderstand that right? A lot of
(10:41):
the military spouses of theirastronauts, that's what they
did. Anyway, they took care ofthe family. The dude flew jets
where we flew or was on anaircraft carrier deployed to
Afghanistan, whatever it was,the spouse, the female typically
took care of the family. Well,for us, that was a new, a nuance
for us a different lifestylechange. And she handled it
(11:05):
beautifully. I'm not sure Ihandled it as well, because I
was constantly under stress. Andso when I would come home, I
couldn't leave work at theoffice. Right? Yeah, it became
difficult. And so my hot buttonswere much more sensitive with
the kids. And I wish I couldhave all that back. Right. I
(11:27):
wish I could go back and dothis, again, understanding that
what happened to me and make itright, make it better. But of
course, you can.
Mark Williams (11:38):
So describe for me, that's a great segue. And I
really appreciate yourfrankness, I do quite a bit of
traveling as well. It's sloweddown a little bit. But I used to
spend 4548 weeks out of the yearon the road, Monday through
Friday, definitely takes a tollon the family for sure. And
every time I come home, I feellike I'm reconnecting and
reestablishing. But I'm curiousin your situation. For you
(12:00):
personally. How did you how didyou manage the the lows? And
I'll call that a burnout in itsown way. Sometimes it's just you
haven't seen the family? Youhaven't seen the kids at work?
It obviously is a heavy load.
How do you How did you mentallyand maybe even physically take
the breaks or keep yourself,keep your mind? Right?
Clayton Anderson (12:22):
Two things.
One will be a story of, youknow, exercise was important to
me. And, you know, the way Idealt with depression or
absenteeism from the family is Iworked out all the time, I was
in way better shape back inthose days than I am now. And
it's disappointing to me incertain aspect, because I simply
(12:43):
the time constraint is differentnow. But the other thing, I'll
tell you a story, it didn'tbecome hugely difficult until I
was assigned to fly on theInternational Space Station.
Well, as soon as that wasdirected, that meant I had to
travel internationally, andmostly to Russia. And, and so I
(13:05):
remember very clearly, my firsttrip to Russia, was in the
winter, January, February. Andwhen I arrived in Moscow, we got
in a van, I came to the strengthof the airport, right? I walk
out, I have no idea what thehell is going on where I am, I
(13:26):
find this guy who's got my nameon a sign his name is a theme.
He speaks no English, but he ismy driver to get me in the van
to take me to a grocery store,where I'm supposed to buy my own
food, because we're going toStar City where they train
cosmonauts. And I'm going tolive in an American built
cottage built by the Russian AirForce. And I'm going to have to
(13:48):
live on my own right. So I getthere. And as we drive in this
van, at in the dark in thewintertime, we stopped at an
intersection because there was adead body lathe. Oh my gosh,
with a military guy holding amachine gun standing over this
body and I'm thinking, holycrap, what have
Unknown (14:12):
I done? Welcome to Russia.
Clayton Anderson (14:16):
And then we get to the place and I go
through, you know, my first Idon't even know if it was my
first week or first couple ofweeks. But you you were
typically overseas for four tofive weeks. Wow. And in those
four to five weeks, typically inAmerica, it would have been
packed with training. But theRussians don't have as many
(14:38):
simulators. They don't have asmuch or as good at turnaround
time. And so there's a lot ofdead time in that four to five
weeks, bro. That's when youthink about your family. Right
You bet. This was pre cellphone. This was in order to have
a teleconference with yourfamily. You had to go out and
(14:58):
you had to go to it store likeBest Buy, and you had to buy a
camera that was gonna sit on thetop your laptop, and you had to
load all this crappy software,and then you're in Russia, so
you had to hope it would workwith the internet, right? That
was still shaky because we wereplugged into the ethernet cables
on the wall, not Wi Fi anywhere.
And so to get all that to workand to be able to see the kids
(15:19):
and not have their views,pixelated, and you know, and
frozen in the middle of themtalking to you, it was very
difficult. So let me go to thestory real quick. So I'm feeling
pretty, pretty low. I'm prettydepressed. I'm, it's freezing
cold, it's dark all the time.
And I'm thinking, What the hellhave I done? Well, one of the
(15:40):
astronauts said, Hey, we'regoing to the club at the caf art
gallery in Moscow this weekendon Saturday, would you like to
go? And I'm thinking, Well, do Ireally want to go to an art
gallery? No. But do I want toget out of this place? Yeah. So
I went. And I'm a man of faith,I have a very strong belief in
(16:00):
God. And it turns out in thismuseum, I bought a book, a guide
book. And we've kind ofseparated off and did our thing
and said, we'll meet back atwhatever time I walked through a
door into a room. And I turnedaround and I saw this massive
painting on the wall. It wasframed in a big, fat, thick gold
(16:23):
ornate frame, right? It had tobe my memory says 10 feet tall,
this picture probably wasn'tthat big. But as I looked at it,
it's Christ. And he's sitting ona stone in the middle of the
wilderness. And the name of thepainting is Christos, napus,
Taenia. And that means Christ inthe desert, right? So this is
(16:45):
when Christ did his 40 days, 40nights of penance in the desert,
right. And it was painted byIvan cram school, a Russian
artist, and it was amazing. AndI stared at it for 30 minutes. I
just stood there and stared atit. Any you know, as I as I
looked at the painting, and Ilooked at Christ face, which was
(17:06):
long and thin, and drawn andpale, and sad, and his
fingernails were long and hishand was in his ears, chin was
in his hand, and he was sittingon this rock, with just a sheet
or a cloth around his body. AllI could think of was, hey, if
you can do that, for me, I cando this for you. And that was a
(17:31):
turning point for me, mentally,so much so that I tried to chase
down a print of this painting,which I couldn't find anywhere,
I may have to go look again, nowthat I think about it, but I
couldn't find it anywhere. And Iwanted to give it to my pastor
from my church in Webster,Texas, because when I left to go
(17:54):
on my training trip, he was mypastor. But then in the middle
of my trip, he left, he wasgone, he went to a new church.
And I never said goodbye. Andthat was hugely important to me,
it was more important to mywife, she was pretty angry, cuz
she knew our relationship waspretty tight. Excuse me. And so
(18:20):
I commissioned someone to Paintme a copy of that painting, such
that I could take it to him inLexington, Kentucky, where he
ended up at the University ofKentucky at the collegiate
Methodist Church, I found a wayto get to Kentucky to speak to a
group such that I could attendchurch on that Sunday and
(18:41):
present it to him in front ofthe congregation and tell them
the story. So
Mark Williams (18:47):
that really, you really found your inspiration in
that which is awesome.
Congratulations for that. Let'stransition a little bit so you
have this incredible career onlyastronaut from Nebraska, you you
have six spacewalks. Incredible,then you leave, leave, I don't
leave the astronaut and businessI guess you'd call it and now
you're running a museum. Talkabout a total 180. From what
(19:09):
you've been used to talk alittle bit about that
transition. How did you end upat the museum and maybe some
challenges that are that maybesome of our listeners,
obviously, we don't have a lotof astronaut listeners, probably
so many more in business. It'sinteresting to go from such an
interesting career to somethingdifferent, a little more
business ish, I'll call it um,talk to us a little bit about
(19:30):
that the transition and maybesome of the challenges that you
had at the beginning, trulybecoming a I'll call it a
running a business as opposed tobeing an astronaut.
Clayton Anderson (19:41):
So I retired from NASA in 2013, and was
basically retired for until2022, playing some golf, writing
some books and being pretty mucha slug. I think my wife noticed
more than anything. But I willsay running a museum is way
harder than being an astronaut.
And the other buzz phrase I useis that, you know, if people
(20:04):
look at me and say, Well, youdon't know anything about
running in a museum, my responseto them is, well, I didn't know
a whole lot about being anastronaut. And that turned out
pretty well. Good answer. And Ibelieve I'm not a genius, but
I'm slightly above average andintelligence. So I'm a good
learner, a quick learner. And Ihave a lot of good help, right.
(20:29):
And so my goal, and I wasrecruited to come do this job.
It wasn't like I put in anapplication, I was on the board
of directors at the museum. Mygoal was to basically try to
bring NASA artifacts to themuseum to, you know, enhance the
displays. It wasn't until peoplestarted to whisper in my ear
(20:50):
that we'd like you to considerrunning this place that I
thought, well, this is kind ofstrange. Why would you be
wanting me to, to do this. Andso it would turn out that the
previous leader here, resigned,and went back to the East Coast.
And they needed a new leader,and some entrepreneurs in Omaha.
(21:13):
12 of them actually flew down toHouston to court, my wife and I,
for a couple of days andconvinced me to come back home
and take this job, which I did.
But when I got here in May,there was a lot of, Wow, did I
(21:34):
do the right thing? Sure. Weprayed a lot about it. We talked
a lot about it. We talked to ourchildren about the opportunity,
I talked to two of my closestand dearest friends in the world
in Houston. And it was a Godthing for me that I'm working in
a museum built on a hill that Iused to crawl on when I was a
youngster. The museum opened itsdoors in May of 1998, one month
(21:58):
before NASA called and asked meto become the first Nebraska
astronaut, the museum is builtin my hometown. Because my
brother here, my son's workinghere, my uncle's the mayor of
the town, and museums in mysister just down the road, you
know, everything came fullcircle. Sure. And coming home
(22:19):
seemed to be the right thing todo. Now, one year and nine
months or so into this endeavor.
I believe with all my heart, I'msupposed to be here doing this.
And that. This is where I'mgoing to finish my career.
Mark Williams (22:35):
First, let me applaud you on. You read a lot
about people at older ages,changing careers, obviously,
you've done that successfully.
So congratulations. And you'vedone it in to talk about totally
different environments, frombeing an astronaut, which again,
I mean, you and I could talk forhours about just the training
(22:56):
and your your walks and all ofthat. And then you go into this
business. In my experience, oneof the toughest parts about
running a business is findinggood people. And you alluded to
that, right? It's finding a goodteam. I don't even want to call
it a support system. It'sliterally finding a good team.
And unfortunately, I think forme, my experience has been most
(23:16):
people can do a job, right? Soif you apply for a job and you
have a basic skill set, Ibelieve that most people can can
learn and do and do most jobs.
What I have found is usuallywhen someone doesn't work out,
it's a culture fit. It's aculture issue, not necessarily
(23:38):
that they couldn't perform thejob. It's not that personality
didn't fit the flavor of theorganization. For whatever
reason, right sometimes it'sit's I made a bad hire. I just
didn't didn't do my homework.
Sometimes it's maybe it's amismatch of personalities within
teams. That doesn't, thatdoesn't seem to jive. I'm
curious in your world, comparingthe astronaut business where
(24:00):
you're spending these hugeamounts of time with people that
were strangers that have becomeI'm assuming closer, but you
don't get to choose thosepeople, right? Those are people
that you're in a class with.
They were they were selected indifferent personalities. And now
you're in a business whereyou're selecting your support
team, describe me a little bitof the differences there.
(24:21):
Because in one, you're kind offorced to work with those that
are with you. And here you getto make the decisions. And if
you make the wrong one, it's onyou. And that's a little bit
different mindset. But
Clayton Anderson (24:30):
it's totally correct. Right. As an astronaut,
and this has been a toughstruggle for me, as an astronaut
I work with highly trained,highly capable, highly educated,
highly motivated, typicallypeople now they weren't all that
way. I mean, you know, you haveyour few, I mean, it is a
government installation afterall nouns. And so you have those
(24:51):
dudes that stand by the pond andthrow bread in the pond all day
and you know, and they'regetting paid a great government
salary. We had those people Butfor the most part, the mentality
there is different. It's acomplex team made up of very
highly educated and highlymotivated folks whose goal is a
mission, right? The missioncould be designed in a
(25:12):
spacesuit, it could be, youknow, sending a shuttle to the
space station, it could bebuilding the space station are
doing a spacewalk. But all ofthose things have consequences
and have typically have humanlife on the end of the spear.
And so that focus is what drivespeople to succeed. Now, you may
not go to party with those folksafterwards, or spend time with
(25:34):
them on the weekends. But whenwhen the poop hits the fan,
those are the people you counton. And yeah, they weren't given
to you, you weren't allowed toselect them. And selecting
astronaut cruisers is blackmagic to me. But typically, that
motivational factor allows youto get through what you need to
get through and solve theproblem. So now go to where I am
(25:56):
today. And you're right, it'stotally different, as as a
leader of this museum, andtrying to build a business
mindset and manager mindset.
It's one of those things whereI've heard the term the right
person on the right seat on theright bus, right. I think
everybody that's read managementbooks, has heard that it doesn't
(26:19):
work that way. It does if you'rea very wealthy organization. So
if you find that right person,for the right seat on your bus,
you can steal them, you can say,hey, I want you to come work for
me, I'll give you a double thesalary and three times a
vacation, and they come. But inmy situation, I'm looking for a
good person in a seat on ourbus. Yeah, that's what I need. I
(26:42):
need a good person, I needsomebody I can coach and I can
mentor because like you said,people can do the job. I mean,
good God run a museum and Ain'tRocket Science, right. And so if
I find that good person who'swilling to grow and has passion
for what we do, and sees thevision for where we want to go,
(27:02):
I just need loyalty for two orthree or four years right to
stay with me for a little while.
So I can build some momentum.
And so now we're we're workingto build a strong, dedicated,
loyal, loyal is a big word tome, your team that will hang
with me for a while and help mesee this through. If I have to
(27:23):
keep hiring people all the time,and all we do is interview and
hire and then get rid of andthen hire again. That's gonna
make it really rough down theroad. Yeah, for sure.
Mark Williams (27:37):
An amazing, amazing career. When you look
back on the things that you'vedone, including what you're
doing now running, running amuseum, which is dear, obviously
dear to your heart, what themuseum stands for? What would
you say you're most proud of youhave an incredible career. When
you look back, and you say, Wow,this is this? I did this. What
(27:58):
do you beat your chest done?
Clayton Anderson (28:02):
Oh, that's a good question. It's a tough
question. I guess if you forcedme to say one thing. I would say
that there is no one, no singlehuman that's more proud than me,
to be Nebraska's astronaut to befrom Nebraska to be home in
Nebraska giving back to thestate and the people and the
(28:25):
communities that made me theperson I am today. I've always
tried to help others. And I'mtrying to give back now and I
don't have a bazillion dollars,I would love to be able to
donate a Brazilian to somethingright and build a building or a
dorm or put my name on ascholarship or whatever it would
be. I can't do that. I'm agovernment employee. But I can
(28:48):
give back. And what I'm choosingto do is to come home and give
back to that community thatraised me. You know, I tell the
story a lot about the first timeI was on the space station. I
was looking forward to flyingover Nebraska and taking a bunch
of photos of my hometown and Ilooked at the computer that said
(29:09):
our trajectory was going to takeus right between Omaha and
Lincoln, which would beabsolutely perfect. And so I
planned I set a timer I putcameras all around the window
and velcroed it and I had freshbatteries and I had digital
cards image cards because I wasgoing to take a bazillion photos
right. And as I leaned down inthe window and you kind of get a
perspective with this hurricanebehind me on the podcast is you
(29:32):
have to lay down kind of in lookto the right or left to see
where you are and see whereyou're traveling over the earth.
And so it took me a while to getmy bearings as we came in over
the Northwest United States. AndI had to find the Missouri River
and some of the dammed lakes onthe river to make sure I was
looking in the right place.
Follow it down to the to theMissouri that squiggles between
(29:54):
Iowa and Nebraska and then findOmaha you The biggest landmark I
wouldn't know. Right? Sure. AndLincoln, well, they're just big
gray blobs on the earth withyour naked eye. They don't, you
know, they don't stand out withbig Omaha, Omaha. Lincoln
doesn't have a star where thecapital is right. And the Platte
River doesn't have theitalicized Platte River written
(30:15):
on it that we remember from Mapsas a kid. So as we flew down,
and I was starting to see andfigure out that we were coming
down the Missouri River, andthen I could finally see that
big gray blob called OMA ha,well, the South Bend of the
Platte River is right where Igrew up. And so as I looked and
found that, I thought I wasgonna take a ton of pictures.
(30:36):
Well, I didn't take a singlepicture, I just cried. I was 230
miles above my home with allthose people, that meant so much
to me. Sure. Below me, and Ijust couldn't do it. And I just
floated there and watched and ofcourse, it moves by really
(30:57):
quickly, five miles everysecond. So, you know, within a
minute or two, they were it wasgone is gone. And it wouldn't be
until the next time I had thatopportunity that that I was
emotionally stable enough to beable to actually take the
photos. So yeah, that was a veryemotional time for me. Sure.
Mark Williams (31:18):
Well, clay, I asked every guest this question.
It's a Saturday or a Sundaymorning, you have no
responsibilities, you can dowhat you'd like and be with whom
you'd like, describe for me yourperfect Saturday morning or
Sunday morning.
Clayton Anderson (31:33):
You know, one thing I miss that I don't do
enough, and I want to try to domore is I don't read as much as
I used to. It would be reallycool. If I could wake up have a
nice steaming cup of coffee, andmaybe just sit for an hour and
read. I like to learn but Itypically read fun books like
(31:55):
Jack Clancy and Jack Ryan, youknow, the and I love John
Grisham. And I love Nevada bar.
I don't know if people know whoshe is. But she writes murder
mysteries. And she's a dearfriend of mine. And I love to
read her books. And then there'sa guy named Tom Abrams down in
Houston, who's an ABC TV anchor.
(32:17):
But he also is a great author.
He writes really fun, fast.
books that I just love to read.
My problem is I get into a fewfew pages and I'm falling
asleep. You me both. So if Icould sleep lay, and then have a
nice steaming cup of coffee andmaybe sit outside and good
weather and read a book for anhour. I think that would be
(32:38):
pretty nice. And I'm going towork to try to do that. The
other thing would be justspending time with my wife and
kids and but they like to. Theylike to be on the go. And
sometimes dad just wants to kindof chill.
Mark Williams (32:53):
I get it.
Congratulations. Me too. Goodcup of coffee. Nice book and
relaxation. Sounds wonderful.
Well, I can't thank you enoughClay Anderson astronaut. over 30
years spent with NASA, thank youvery much for being a guest. I
want to again, give a shout outto the Strategic Air Command and
Aerospace Museum. Clay is theCEO and president of that
(33:15):
organization. So if you have anyinterest in space and NASA and
all of the things that revolvearound that world, please seek
out Clay Anderson and the museumin is it Ashland, Nebraska?
Clayton Anderson (33:29):
Yeah, Ashland, Nebraska. And I would give you a
couple of websites if the museumis sac SAIC museum.org. It's
pretty easy to find. And then mywebsite is ASTRO clay.com. And
if you just Google Astro clay onthe Google search bar of your
choice, while Wait, I just kindof advertising for Google on the
(33:51):
search bar search engine of yourchoice, Astro play.com. You can
pretty much find everything thatgoes with me. And yeah, we would
welcome anyone to learn about usto come visit us. If you go to
the visitors desk, you mightsay, Hey, is the astronaut here
today and because if I am, I'llcome out and say hi, and we're
one of the few museums in theentire world that you can meet
(34:14):
an astronaut. Fantastic.
Mark Williams (34:16):
So my takeaways for clay specifically, if you
want to switch careers, afteryou've had one, definitely
doable. And Clay is a testamentto that. Also, so, so far,
right? A man that lived hisboyhood dream, which I think is
just an amazing story in itself.
You dress up as an astronaut andyou become an astronaut. That's
pretty amazing. And finally,what I think the most important
(34:38):
lesson here is a support system.
Clay has chosen several careersthat really require good support
people, not only personally butprofessionally as well. I wish
you the best of luck. Clay.
Thank you very much for being aguest on the show. And for all
of our listeners. Thanks againfor listening into Balance, Not
Burnout and hopefully we've gotGot a couple of tips to make
(35:00):
lives a little bit easier. Takecare everybody. Thanks for
listening. If you think balanceis as important as I do, at work
and all throughout your life,help the show out by leaving me
a five star review following meon social media, or sharing the
podcast with someone you thinkwould appreciate it. If you have
comments or questions, I'd lovefor you to join the conversation
with me on LinkedIn. I want tothank OBI Creative for producing
(35:22):
the podcast and Swells Beats forgetting the music for me. Thanks
for sharing your time with metoday. And until next time, this
is Mark signing off.
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