October 18, 2025 • 48 mins
A headlamp slicing the dark. A kid who’d rather be grinding levels than hiking switchbacks. A flash of fear on the roadside that turns into something like courage. Eliot Peper joins us to share Ensorcelled, his compact 90-minute novel about a boy named Tim whose attention is split between the glowing pull of video games and the raw, unscripted wonder of the Sierra backcountry.
We dig into why this story works so well in a short form and how a tight arc can carry more voltage than a sprawling series. Eliot talks about writing in first person to capture a mind that hops from action to reflection to speculation, and how the book intentionally blurs that line where imagination colors reality without erasing it. He opens up about the moment that inspired the “rewild your attention” theme: seeing himself through his newborn’s eyes, staring at a small rectangle while the world dazzled right beside it. From there, we trace the trail—parents, friction, friends, and a mysterious light that readers can’t stop talking about.
The outdoors isn’t just scenery here. Eliot draws from real trips to a hidden Sierra lake and a life lived near the Pacific, where surfing teaches timing, patience, and commitment. We talk about creativity as a way to love nature more—write a page, sketch a shoreline, record a wave—and why that practice makes the next ride richer. We also widen the lens: genre as a toolbox rather than a box, how to market work that refuses neat labels, and why he thinks writer’s block is a myth for long-form storytellers. Plus, a candid take on AI as both promise and upheaval, closer to the printing press than a passing fad.
If you’re hungry for a fast, moving read that blends fantasy’s wonder with the grit of real trails, you’ll find a lot to love here. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a nudge outdoors, and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Elliot Pepper, how are you, man?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
I'm doing very well.
It's good to connect.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Yeah, finally, right?
After a couple times, coupletimes, but it happens.
People know it happens.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Yeah, of course.
Both, both of our faults.
You gotta get to get those starsaligning.
unknown (00:44):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Kids, real life.
Yeah, kids.
I have three.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
I don't know how many you have, but you know, you
we're I've got one, but he's twoand a half right now, so he's a
bundle of energy.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
Oh, yeah.
So have fun and good luck.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
I need it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
So so Elliot, you you're an author, 12 novels,
right?
You you you reached out earlySeptember.
Don't know how, don't know why,or I don't even know how you
found me, but you found me, butyou knew I like to read and put
authors on.
I had so I have to ask before wego on, how did you find me?
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Yeah, you bet.
So, I mean, I love the outdoors,like I spend a lot of time in
the outdoors.
I live in Pacifica, California.
So when I'm not writing, I'msurfing, and so I'm I'm in the
ocean a lot.
And I also try to spend a lot oftimes in the mountains, you
know, like backpacking and allthat kind of thing.
And so I I love listening topodcasts that are about the
(01:43):
outdoors, that are about thelove of the outdoors, and that's
how I came across the show.
And that's also that the lovethat I feel for spending time in
nature and the the kinds of waysin which spending time in nature
has changed my life is uh islike very much a central theme
of of this of this book.
(02:04):
And so I just thought that youbasically I just thought you
might enjoy it.
Yeah, so that's why that's why Ireached out.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Yeah, yeah, and and and I did, and I love it.
So if you want, you know, youcan tell the title and we'll
we'll start from there.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Sure, yeah.
The yeah, my new novel is calledEnsorceled that came out.
We're recording on a Friday, andit actually came out on
Wednesday.
So it is it's fresh.
And yeah, it's about it's aboutit's a coming of age adventure
about a boy who goes on acamping trip that changes his
life and sort of opens his mind,opens his heart, and rewilds his
(02:38):
attention.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Yeah.
90-minute read.
Never heard of that until I readthis book, and I got it a lot
earlier than most, and and it issigned.
So I appreciate it.
Such an honor to uh have a booksigned by an author and get it
early.
So I've I've I've had my myfeel, my taste, also, you know,
(03:01):
it's it's cerebral.
So I was like, okay, trying todissect it because you know,
I've I've had a f a coupleauthors on and I dissect it and
just blow their minds on youknow my interpretation.
So uh basically without tellingeverybody about the book because
it's a 90-minute book, maincharacter loves video games,
(03:22):
right?
Did you actually put the name ofthe main character?
Tim.
Tim, yes, okay, all right, allright.
I know I know Lenny and Theo andthat, but I've I've I tried to
find the main character's nameand I just couldn't find it.
So Tim.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Yeah, it's uh it's also written in first person, so
that's that's why his name, likeironically, the main character's
name doesn't show up as often asyou might think for that reason.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Yeah, yes, and quite the imagination.
And I'm just gonna stick to thescript.
Went on an adventure with theparents, right?
But meets two characters, Lennyand Theo, had some turmoil, went
on a trip with Lenny on thetrail, and then something
(04:09):
happens and they make it out,right?
But in the midst of all this,it's like they they they have
imagination of the there's thedragons, the colors, the
scenery, the nights, the the thelights from you know their
headlamps and more video gamesthroughout the whole book,
(04:31):
right?
The 90-minute read, and it goesback and forth, and the way you
did it is man, it's like it'smind-blowing, believe it or not.
And sometimes you have to catchyourself, okay, is this real?
Or it like, is it fantasy?
Like, seriously, you you know,and did you make it to be that
way?
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Did so one of the things I was thinking about a
lot as I was writing this storyis that we you earlier on, you
were you were you mentioned thatwe both have kids.
And when my son was born, he'sour first, he's our first kid.
And when he was born, one thingI noticed was that when you
(05:11):
know, when I'd be hanging outwith him at home, I became hyper
aware of whenever I was lookingat my phone, because you know, I
have this newborn, and he'slooking at this amazing world
that he's been born into, right?
It's just like it, likeliterally, you know, a shoe,
like a slipper on the floor isjust like like a completely new
(05:33):
life experience for him, and soeverything is fascinating.
And yet, I imagine seeingmyself, his father, through his
eyes, where he's looking aroundat all this amazing stuff, and
I'm looking at this weirdrectangle in my hand, right?
And for me, I'm looking throughthe phone, I'm looking at what's
in on the internet, it's awindow into this sort of like
(05:55):
digital world.
But for but from hisperspective, I'm just staring at
a weird rectangle, and so thatreally got me, you know, just
more made me more cognizant ofmy basically information diet
and where I was where I wasinvesting my attention.
And and it made and and thatrealization sort of helped
(06:17):
inform this story.
And so for Tam, you know, heloved, as you said, he loves
video games, right?
He loves these very much soyeah, he loves it.
Yeah, and he loves these, youknow, these the and what are
video games?
I mean, they're just likethey're fantasies, right?
They're these fantasies thatthey're they're there's the
imaginary worlds that we get tomess around and play with.
(06:37):
And like when I was growing up,I also loved video games.
Like, I don't have like aproblem with them like
philosophically, like they'refun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So so I think that like youknow, but uh if you if you spend
all your time living inimaginary worlds, whether that's
who whether that's in source ofthe novel that I wrote, which is
(07:00):
like an example of a of afantasy world, right?
Or whether it's a video game, orwhether it's like scrolling
TikTok, like any of theseimaginary virtual worlds, you
miss out on all of like theincredible context and marvels
and wonders that are embedded inthe physical world that we live
(07:20):
in.
And so this story plays withthat a lot, right?
Like he's a he is both a youknow, a 12-year-old who's
obsessed with video games, so hespends a lot of time in
imaginary worlds, but he alsoloves to draw.
So he loves to invent imaginaryworlds, and he's just an
imaginative kid.
(07:41):
So whenever he's like living hislife, when you're seeing the
world through his eyes, he'salways sort of like spinning up
weird like thoughts and ideasabout the things he observes,
right?
So I I that I actually wanted tolike sort of push the boundaries
on that as a writer, as I waswriting this character, because
that's such an important lensthrough him for him, yeah,
(08:04):
through which he experienceslife.
And so that's why when you'rereading the book, there's a lot
of moving back and forth betweenaction where like something's
happening to reflection, wheremaybe he's like thinking about
something that's happening andconnecting that to you know,
connecting it to other dots, andthen like speculation where he's
(08:25):
imagining something that mighthappen next, or connecting it to
games he's played, or what whathave you.
So, yeah, as you read the text,it's very yeah, it's it's it's
very dynamic, it moves a lotbetween action and thought and
imagination.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
And and the way you went through, you know, San
Francisco and the outdoors, youyou know, that's what got me off
sold, you know, outdoorsanything sold, you know.
But the video games and then theoutdoors, I'm like, I need some
more of that.
You you just you you did a greatjob at getting tidbits and
explaining it and then goingfrom this one to the next one.
(09:01):
I mean, superb job.
So, but the outdoors, I waslike, okay, when when we when
are we gonna do it?
When are we gonna do it, right?
So if before I give you my threeways of of seeing it, would you
want to uh say any more aboutyour book before I I I blow my
(09:22):
mind or blow your mind because II I I kinda enjoy just sharing
my thoughts.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
I want to hear your thoughts.
I'm delighted to hear yourthoughts.
Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
All right.
So, one one of the scenes thatreally stood out, right?
Besides the video games intoreal life parents and fighting
parents and arguing with themabout not going, doesn't want to
go, games coming out, this andthat.
I I felt the drive in thatsupposed little accident on the
(09:57):
side of the road, right?
I felt like that was a traumaticevent or a trigger for Tim to
somewhat get lost.
You know, how in real lifesomebody gets triggered, they
find their coping mechanism.
I feel like his thoughts, uh theway he goes from video games to
(10:17):
real life, I felt like it wasone of his ways of coping.
Um a traumatic event, becauseany of that, you know, he almost
got hit, right?
Dad almost got hit, right?
So, so you know, I I I felt thatwas his his way of escaping uh
reality and became a setback andset him back a bit.
(10:38):
That's one.
I I feel that was a major catcat catalyst of the story.
I felt the uh the charactersince he didn't want to go, felt
like he was daydreaming thewhole way up to uh the woods.
Okay.
The and and what is it?
(11:00):
He couldn't he couldn't getenough of the video game, so he
just to get away, to get awayfrom the parents, felt like he
was just daydreaming the wholething.
All right, and lastly, felt likehe was building a world in a
video game, almost like Robloxor the Fortnite Lego.
I like Lego Fortnite, I'm justtelling you.
(11:21):
Loki felt felt like you know, itcould have been he was building
his own world with two otherpeople, you know, and in chat,
and uh he didn't get along withone, so uh him and Lenny made
their own world that night, sawsome things, dealt with some
(11:43):
turmoil, or you know, just alittle adventure of themselves
and got out of it, and thenboom, the end, you know what I
mean.
And that that that that was myinterpretation in those three
little things, and it's justlike, how can I get there?
How can I get there?
I don't know, maybe it's my dayjob.
(12:04):
I I I I don't know, but the wayyou described in the 90 pages,
you know, someone can interpretit in so many ways.
Well done, well done.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
So oh, I really appreciate that.
Yeah, I mean, one thing that Ireally enjoy about as a reader
of of speculative fiction,basically, like of of like
fiction that has theseimaginative elements woven into
it is that my favorite books,it's not just that the books
like the story is imaginative,it's that it makes me imagine
(12:42):
things.
I'm almost like a participant,right?
It's like when you go to watch amovie, everything's up on the
screen in front of you, and likeright that is awesome.
Like, I love good movies, butlike I feel like one really
special thing about books isthat like the reader is you're
filming the movie in your mind,right?
(13:04):
Right.
And so I think that like onelike I love hearing your the the
pieces that stood out for youand the the different lenses
through which you are evaluatingor interpreting the story
because I actually think thatlike that's part of the fun,
right?
Like the fact that like thestory that you can bring
different perspectives to thestory and take different things
(13:26):
out of it is part of like thebeauty of like novels as an art
form.
And so I I just I'm very movedand and I think that's that's
really cool.
And I really appreciate yousharing that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So not full of crud.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
No, no, no.
I mean, I I think that's yeah,that's that's that's yeah,
exactly.
That's part of the fun.
And you know, you mentioned likethe the sort of the car accident
scene, yeah.
And you know, one thing I wasreally thinking a lot about
there that's how how sort ofcourage, you know, some people
(13:58):
call courage the mother ofvirtues because it's like in
order to have any other, like inorder to do anything else, you
sort of need to find courage.
And I think that like one thingI was trying to do in that scene
with with Lenny's character isjust show how he reacts to fear
and how an imaginative kid canreact to fear, right?
(14:21):
It's like we've probably allexperienced in our lives like
something bad happens and wejust go into this bad spiral in
our head, right?
Where you're like, and like youcan't get out, you just get sort
of like locked in.
And like, I mean, I'veexperienced you know, it's like
it keeps you up at night, youjust can't sort of you get stuck
in these loops.
And I think that like part ofpart of the overall arc of Tam
(14:46):
in this story is that we see himlike get trapped in those loops,
and also that like the adventurethat he goes on with his friends
equips him to start breaking outof those loops in a new way,
right?
Which is, I think, something I'malways reaching for when I
struggle.
(15:07):
And like hopefully, you know,readers that can resonate with
readers as well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
So another thing, and your in your eyes, you wrote
the book.
Was Lenny a real friend or wasit imagination?
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Ah okay.
Yeah, I got it, got it, got it.
Yeah, yeah.
This is like the uh yeah, yeah.
Uh this is how how how deep doesthe rabbit hole go?
Kind of a question.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Yeah, okay.
Uh so I like so I'll say I'llgive you what I think, okay, but
I I I want to like add a bigcaveat, which is that like as a
(15:46):
like I think that with art ingeneral, whether it's a movie,
visual art, music, anything,like interpretation is up to the
reader, not up to the author'sintent, right?
So, but I I will share myintent.
It's not like I'm not gonna likekeep it from you or something.
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
You can say yes or no, but totally, totally.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yeah, so so in in my it like the way I envision and
experience the story, like theadventure is real, right?
We have like he like Tam isobsessed with video games, so we
see a lot of that.
He's very imaginative, so we goon all these sort of like
diversions into things that he'sthinking in his head, but then
(16:26):
like the main events of the plotare all like actually happening
rather than like happening inhis head in a like the matrix
kind of way.
Okay, man.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
You had me spinning, okay.
I'm just yeah, yeah, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
But I'm I'm I'm actually like pretty delighted
to hear that that got youspinning because the central
theme of the book is so plays somuch with imagination, with like
interpreting reality indifferent ways.
So I actually think that's likeextremely cool okay that you had
a very different interpretationof it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Okay, well, yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not you
know BSing you, you know, oryour listeners who will be
listening, you know, and mylisteners.
I I definitely want you to checkit out because once you start
going on that adventure withthem, it's almost like you're
there, but then they see thislight and then come about, you
know, so it's like, come on,man, come on, Elliot.
(17:22):
All right, all right.
So, yes.
So, I mean, when I was readingit, I just really dove in and
like, okay, okay, you know, it'sjust like taking notes.
I'm like, all right, all right,okay.
So, did you know that you weregonna make a short book?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
No, I mean the short answer is no.
I actually had imagined thatthis story would like my
original idea for this story wasmuch, much longer.
Like, in fact, this was justsort of like the first, like
like parts of the exist uh ofthe book you read were like sort
of how I imagined maybe thefirst act of like a larger
(18:06):
story.
But like one thing that I foundas a writer is that no idea
survives contact with the enemy,right?
So, like the minute I'm actuallyworking on a story, the minute
I'm actually like in amanuscript, like facing that
blank page, like things changedramatically.
It's it's I I've never written abook where like I had a plan and
(18:29):
the plan worked.
So, so when I was working onthis story, I found that I was
like, wait a minute, like all ofthe important, all of the magic
in the story, all of like thethings that that make it tick,
want to be right here, righthere in what I imagined would be
the beginning.
And and so it sort of itcondensed, it it really like
(18:54):
tightened up compared to what Ithought the initial plan would
be.
And I was actually delighted bythat because I have an
unreasonable affection for shortbooks.
I actually think that this isextremely nerdy, so I hope you
will forgive me, but like in thein the in the weird and
(19:16):
wonderful world of bookpublishing, there are sort of
these norms like the like wherelike a book should be a certain
length, right?
And like not just a book shouldbe a certain length, but like
different books in differentgenres have like normal lengths
associated with them.
And so there's a lot of industrypressure to basically conform to
that.
(19:37):
And it's quite rare to have youknow novellas like these like
small, like small books, but Iquite love them.
Like as a reader, there are afew that have like have really
meant a lot to me.
Like Claire Keegan wrote a bookcalled Foster that's like
shorter than in Source Salt, andit'll just break your heart,
right?
(19:57):
And there was a lovely adventurestory called I think How to Lose
the Time War, that that like waslike very you know, it sort of
like was a surprise hit a coupleof years ago.
But basically, like tiny bookswhere you have a full story arc,
like they you're real it is afull novel, it's just in this
tight, condensed form.
(20:19):
I just have a real affection forthem.
And so once ensurced started tobecome that, I was pretty
delighted.
And I think that maybe one ofthe roots of my like weird
obsession with small books isthat in today's world, we're
sort of surrounded by theopposite.
Like, if you think about likeNetflix, you have all these like
(20:42):
sprawling, loose, messy storiesthat never end and they like
cancel it after two seasons andlike nothing is resolved.
And I find that, like as awriter, when I like watch series
like that or read book serieslike that, I often feel really
frustrated because I'm justlike, tell me, tell me the damn
story.
Like, like an ending is anincredibly important part to uh
(21:06):
to making a story click.
It's like I'm I'm not gonna tellyou a joke without a punchline,
and so so once in source startedstarted to fit that that form
factor of like 90 pages.
I just I thought that was gonnabe super cool, but I had a lot
of I I didn't know if it wasgonna work, and it actually
(21:26):
wasn't.
There was one moment wherebecause you know, I'm working on
a manuscript, right?
I'm like typing on my computerand going through uh countless
rounds of edits and trying toyou know make it the best it can
be.
And when I was looking at that,I was like, you know, I hope
this will work, but I don'treally, you know, it totally
might not.
But then Peter Noel, whodesigned InSource Soul, when he
(21:48):
designed the book, and I am thefirst print proof, like the
first ver print physical versionof it arrived at my house and I
could hold it in my hands.
That was the first moment when Iwas like, Oh, this is something
there's something special here.
Like, this is actually supercool, and I'm really excited to
share it with readers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
So now that it's out, it was out two days ago,
October 8th.
The plan worked.
Overall, the plan worked.
Can you say yes or no?
Oh, absolutely.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
No, I wasn't sure if that was a statement or a
question.
Yeah, no, I've been, I mean,frankly, like I've been really
overwhelmed and moved by by thereaction from readers to this
book.
And because it's a short book,I'm getting reactions way faster
than I normally do for a novel.
And great work.
(22:41):
Yeah, but I mean, I so comparedthe again, like this is my 12th
book, and I have never receivedso many messages from strangers
from readers who said that thestory brought them to tears.
Like, yeah, compared to anyother book.
So I I don't know, it's reallymoving.
Uh, it's it's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I I I I can see where they canbe moved in tears at that
moment, that light, that thatthe lights.
Um I you know, I'm gonna leavethat, okay?
We'll just say the light.
Once they see the light, you caninterpret in so many other ways,
okay.
Like, all right, I like it.
Why not give us more of thewilderness, though?
(23:23):
That's the only thing because Iwas an outdoorsy guy, I wanted
some more, I wanted some more,and and when you put it out
there, it was a little, a littlebit, and it just like was like,
okay, I need some, I need more.
I was craving more, but then ithappened, and then bam.
Why not give more of thewilderness?
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Well, leaving you wanting more is maybe not a bad
thing in a in a novel.
No, it's not, I know, but uhyeah, yeah.
Uh and uh I will say that mywife reads the rough draft of
every book I write and gives menotes, and she is very honest.
And and one note that she hashad on every single book I've
(24:09):
written is actually what youjust said is like I like more of
this.
And yeah, so I maybe it's just aI don't know.
Uh I I at this point, because Iapparently have not figured out
how to give more over 12 novels,like maybe that's just like a
tick of me as a writer.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
But uh the tease, man.
Yeah, it's outdoors gay.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Yeah, well, I will say though, like as an outdoors
guy, so the the sort of the thethe setting for for the like the
outdoor setting for that for theadventure in the book is
actually like there it isinspired by a series of trips
that we do with a group offriends up to the Sierra
Nevadas.
(24:52):
And there's this sort of likesecret backcountry lake where we
we get out there with all ourkids and everything every summer
for a week and and just do justenjoy the incredible backcountry
that is you know is so prevalentin the American West.
And so there's actually like avery specific secret lake that
like inspired this precisestory, and so it was actually a
(25:17):
real joy both to be able to tryto bring a place, like a a place
from the a very specific placefrom the outdoors into into a
novel, you know, you know, andto channel my love for it in
trying to write all of thesections about that place.
(25:37):
And it was also a real joy tohave an excuse because I was
writing about it to like do likejust strange, weird niche
research to inform you know someof the the components of the
story.
So I would actually say that ifif any of your listeners like,
and actually, this is veryrelevant to like the section
(25:58):
about tan drawing, like I feellike if you love the outdoors,
one thing that would be worthexperimenting with is if you
don't currently like write ordraw or make music or
necessarily have some kind oflike creative outlet to develop
one precisely to basically givea channel for your love of the
(26:20):
outdoors.
Because I found that likewriting about like places I love
in nature has given me an evendeeper appreciation for them
when I'm there.
So I feel like maybe you feelsomething similar making this
podcast, right?
You get you know, you sort ofreally get to reflect on that.
And I feel like for anyone, likeyou don't have whatever you
don't have to publish books, youcan just write it in a journal
(26:41):
or whatever, right?
But like it just it it sort oflike distills your attention and
and and just allows you toreally like experience like the
beauty of the world we live inin a new way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Okay, you pretty much read my mind because that
was the the next question.
What inspired you?
So I appreciate you just readingmy mind and uh saying so.
So who or what has inspired youto be the writer you are today?
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Well, you know, growing up, I always was like a
total bookworm.
So I would hide in the librarystack so my parents couldn't
find me to take me home andstuff like that.
You know, I I would actuallyvery rarely read what was
assigned to me in school andinstead just read whatever
whatever I wanted.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
You're one of those, one of those, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Um but so I've always just loved reading, and
and what inspired me to write myfirst novel, and then you know,
12 novels later, what inspiredme to write and sourciled are
are the same thing, which isbasically like I there, I have
an idea for a book I want toread.
I'm just like I want thisfeeling as a reader, and
(28:00):
nothing, and I try to find it,right?
Like I sort of try to seek itout as a reader, but when I
can't figure out how to scratchthat itch, that's when I'm like,
okay, like I'm gonna sit downand try to to to write this book
because if it can scratch my ownitch, maybe there are other
people who share my taste,right?
(28:22):
And yeah, again, I don't know ifmaybe you can identify like with
the podcast, like when you tookthe leap to start producing it,
like you had to have a read,right?
You had to sort of like youwanted there's a gap in the
world you want to fill.
And that that's how I that's howI feel.
And that's sort of like theyeah, like the the feeling
behind every book.
And obviously each book isdifferent, right?
(28:43):
It's like a different, like ithas different ideas, a different
story, and all that, but likethat's the unifying factor that
I'm always like I write the bookI want to read.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
Your author, your number one author.
You can't miss, you have toread.
Well, what's the one author youenjoy?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
Oh okay.
Well, you said you lovenonfiction, and at the beginning
of our conversation, I mentionedthat that I am a I surf, and
there's an incredible memoircalled Barbarian Days of
Surfing.
Yes, William Finnegan.
I don't know.
Have you oh you've read it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
I I've seen it.
I've been trying to think ofAudible one day.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
So yeah, I mean, I I like I personally heartily
recommend it, and I thinklisteners of your podcast would
like love it because he hewrites about the ocean and about
surfing and about like surfexploration, like go like
crossing the world, going to allthese super remote places to try
(29:49):
to access unique places innature in a way that is just
phenomenal.
Like I've literally never readprose about waves like.
Hit like he like he writes.
And I would also say that it isnot you do not need to be
interested in surfing to lovethe book because it is very,
(30:12):
yeah, it's very much written forsomeone who's interested in the
outdoors, who's interested innature, and who's interested in
like how that helps you grow,right?
And it's just it's reallybeautiful.
It's it's a yeah, reallyphenomenal story.
And I'd say that like on theflip side, if you if you're if
(30:34):
you listen to this conversationand something that resonates
with you is like the like asmall, concise, punchy, like
piece of fiction that has somelike weird and interesting, sort
of speculative or fantasticalelements that really make you
think and take you to placesmaybe you weren't expecting.
(30:54):
Yeah.
There's a beautiful book calledPuranesi by Susanna Clark.
And it's just this, yeah, like Ididn't really know what to
expect going in, and I'm sort ofglad I didn't know anything
about it.
It it totally just like won meover right away and took me on a
wild ride.
So I'd say that those would belike two different sides of the
coin.
(31:14):
Like if you're enjoying thisconversation, that like those
would be really cool books tocheck out.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Okay.
Your your book and source holdis a lot different from your
other books, correct?
That you you're mostly sci-fi.
This is kind of sci-fi, but moreoutdoorsy and it can interpret
in so many ways in my eyes, youknow, my weird eyes.
If not sci-fi, what other genredo you prefer or write?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Oh, write or uh okay, okay.
As a reader, I read like almosteverything.
Like I'm I I don't like stick togenres as a reader.
I read really across the board.
As a writer, yes, like most ofmy books are like near future
science fiction.
So they're not science fictionin the sense of like space, like
Star Wars, yeah, likespaceships.
(32:07):
They're more science fiction inthe sense of like Jurassic Park,
right?
Like, like this, like, oh, whatif what if the world was
different in this specific way?
And so I that that's that's likemy other books are much more
like that.
What's sort of interesting isthat genre is is super
important, right?
Like genre tells us what toexpect from a story, and so you
(32:32):
know, like if you pick up a bookwith the dragon on the cover,
you're probably gonna expect,you know, a a boy in a small
town who you know grows into hispower and saves the world from
evil with his ragtack goofyfriends.
And if you read a murdermystery, you're gonna expect
that you're gonna find out whodid it, right?
By the end.
(32:53):
And so, like, I and like as areader, I totally I mean,
obviously, like I pay attentionto genre, but what's weird as a
writer, the like the I don'twrite like the like when I
approach, like I said, like thething that leads me into a book
is I have an idea for a storythat I want to exist in the
(33:14):
world, yeah.
And so I never start with genre.
So to me, as a writer, when Ithink about genre, it's like a
carpenter who has like would adddifferent tools to his toolbox
depending on the project he'sworking on, right?
So it's like, you know, you'rebuilding a house that's gonna be
different than building a desk.
And and so for me, I actuallylike Insourced Wild is similar
(33:37):
to my other novels in that I usea lot of different tools from
different genres in every book Iwrite.
So like Insourced has a bunch offantasy elements in it, but it
is very different from HarryPotter or like The Lord of the
Rings, right?
Yeah, like it has some sci-fielements in it, but it's very
(33:58):
different from both JurassicPark and Star Wars.
Like it's neither of thosethings.
And it has some thrillerelements in it because it's like
fast-paced and there are twistsand things like that.
Yeah, but like it's certainlynot like a, you know, like a
like the uh, you know, athriller that you would like
watch on HBO that's about likesomeone being kidnapped and
(34:19):
murdered or something like that.
And so what that meansultimately as an author is that
my books are very hard to marketbecause it's hard to describe
them, right?
You're like, well, is it afantasy story or what?
Uh but because I enjoy that somuch as a reader, I think that
like the readers who love mybooks, even though they're hard
(34:42):
to market, really love them forthat reason, right?
They are they sort of likesurprise you and use these
different tools in in ways youmight not expect.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
So my descriptions, my three like thought-out ways
of how this book went is not toofar off.
No, I think you're totally onpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah, good, good, good, yeah, no, and and like
being perfectly honest, it's astruggle for me whenever I like
have a book, I've written thebook, and now I'm like, how do I
describe this book to people?
Like, that's one of the hardestparts is like like writing the
the back cover copy, you know,like the or like the Amazon
(35:23):
description.
It's like, oh my god, where do Ieven start?
SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
Yeah, and and the more I I read the book, right?
And and I was seeing like whatother books you wrote, you wrote
12 other novels and everythingelse.
One interesting thing thatreally I'm gonna pick up.
Uh hopefully you sign it if I ifif I purchase a book on your
website, will you sign it?
Yes, will others if theypurchase on your website, will
(35:48):
you sign it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah, okay.
So actually, this is sort offun.
So this is a new thing for me.
So okay, one thing like I'veI've always really enjoyed like
getting signed copies fromauthors I love, but it's sort of
hard to do it, right?
It's like if if they're not ifthey don't happen to be doing an
event in your city that you canattend, like how do you even get
(36:09):
that?
And so earlier this year, Idecided that in addition to like
distributing my books throughthe normal channels, like you
can order them on Amazon or yourlocal bookstore or get them at
the library or whatever, that inaddition to that, I was gonna
start selling them directlythrough my website.
Where and and so I started doingthat just this year.
(36:30):
And and whenever if you buy itdirectly from me, I literally
like next to where we'rerecording, I have I have like a
label, a printer label printerand like you know, packaging,
like I hold a small amount ofinventory of the books.
And I before we startedrecording, literally just walked
the dog to drop off a bunch ofsigned copies at the the post
(36:53):
office to send out to readers.
So yeah, so it's it's a funny,really small, delightful like
operation.
So if you want to go direct,yeah, if you if you order any of
my books off my website, I willpersonally sign and send them to
you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Okay.
The the reason why I ask isbecause you the one that caught
my interest was the AI book thatyou and because uh you know the
AI is a huge thing on socialmedia, and you you can make
videos on AI, realistic videos,maybe their hands or something
distorted, but it's kind ofreal.
(37:28):
So before I purchase that, Ijust want to ask your question
is AI good or bad?
Are there more pros than cons?
Or what's your thought on itbefore I pick up that book?
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Yeah, okay, so I really think that it is
extraordinary what computerswhat we've made computers have
been able to do, right?
Like I was just talking, uh mydad was over for dinner the
other night, and he was born in1944 in Amsterdam, so like in
(38:04):
Nazi-occupied Holland.
And and he didn't he never rodein a car or a plane or like
spoke on a telephone, or likebasically any things that we
would consider like table stakesmodern technology, he didn't
experience until he was like 12years old when they like
emigrated to the US.
(38:25):
And and like when I think aboutlike the arc and like now he's
using Chat GPT, right?
You know, it's like it's like apretty wild like arc that we've
been on as a as a culture.
And I think it's absolutelyastonishing and super surprising
that like it turns out computerscan can can work with language,
(38:48):
can can actually like work withlanguage in the way that these
new models do.
Like, and not just not justEnglish, but like also like all
of like all kinds of hiddenpatterns.
That's how the the the visualones work.
So I think it's likeextraordinary.
I think it's super useful.
And I also think that like anynew technology, it just it's a
(39:09):
huge chaos factor in society,right?
So like I I write novels whenthe printing press was first
introduced, it totally was amassive chaos factor in society.
It caused the hundred years'war, like there are so many
things that came out of theprinting press that like were
completely unexpected to anyoneat the time, very much including
(39:33):
those in power, very muchincluding like the large
institutions, and like it had alot of very negative
consequences, in addition to alot of really positive
consequences, and and it took along time to figure out the
difference, right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
So we're finding in the new age, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
So I think we are in one of those.
You said you like to readhistory.
I feel like we are living in oneof those exciting times in
history right now.
Like that's always, you know,like that that's a dangerous
place to be, but it's also likea quite exciting place to be.
Okay.
And so, yeah, like the thingthat that I try to think about
(40:10):
as a writer when it comes to newAI tools is not like like
there's a lot of discussionright now, and I think it's very
worthy discussion, aboutbasically how these tools can
substitute for things peoplecurrently do, right?
And like, and the socialrepercussions of that.
So that's all like will jot willyou lose jobs because like it's
(40:34):
doing the tasks that those jobsare hired to do, etc.
Yeah.
But the thing I try to thinkabout as a writer is, and like
maybe this applies to you as apodcaster as well, I don't know,
is like, okay, like that's oneangle, but like another angle is
what is possible with thesetools that could never have been
(40:56):
possible before.
Yeah, and that's actually, Ifind a much more interesting
place to try to like experiment.
And like I feel like the samewas true with the printing
press, right?
Like it took a couple hundredyears for like novels to really
become a thing after theprinting press was popularized,
and like now they've found theirform.
(41:17):
And the same is true for movies.
Like when film was firstdeveloped, like it took a while,
it took a couple decades forlike the modern feature film
that's like two hours with thistight story, you know, just like
what we think of as a movie, ittook a while for that to like
come into being.
And so I feel like right nowthere's a lot of like
(41:38):
experimentation and dumb stuffbeing done and cool stuff being
done, and you know, we'll sortof see how it plays out.
But if you're like experimentingwith this tools, that's what I
would try to focus on is likehow can you try to like make
things that wouldn't otherwiseexist?
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Gotcha.
We're we're getting close totime, so I appreciate you
entertaining that.
How long how soon will we haveto wait or how long for your
next book?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
Oh god, I don't know yet.
I haven't started writing it.
Okay, so yeah, so I I have a fewideas and I always sort of let
them percolate a little bit andthen start start sort of pushing
them and start start writing.
And so I I I'm not I I don'tknow.
So I you know, I'd say that I'vebeen on a cadence of roughly a
(42:32):
book every year or two, and Ihope that the next one will be
somewhere in that range, but notknowing what it is yet, I can't
make any hard promises.
Is writer's writer's block realor a myth?
I think it's a myth, honestly.
Like it that's not that theprocess can't be hard, but you
(42:54):
know, like does a heart surgeonhave surgeon's block?
Like, no, you might they shemight have a bad day, but she
doesn't have surgeon's block.
And frankly, I feel the samething is true.
That doesn't mean that likeyou're you always feel inspired,
(43:18):
but one thing that I found as anot as a novelist is that like
maybe if you're a poet, you canonly write when you're inspired,
and that works for you becauseyou have this moment of clarity
and you just spend all thatenergy in one poem.
But writing a novel is amarathon, not a sprint.
(43:40):
And if I waited to write until Ifelt inspired, you know, I
wouldn't have released onenovel, let alone 12.
And so the thing that alwayssurprises me is when I write a
manuscript and I go back andread it for the first time, read
that rough draft over for thefirst time, I'm always shocked
(44:03):
because the feeling ofinspiration seems to have almost
nothing to do with the qualityof the output.
That like I can be quiteuninspired, maybe feel
uninspired as I was writing acertain chapter, and that might
be the best chapter in the book.
And so it's it's yeah, I don'tknow.
I I there's some weirdpsychology at work there that I
(44:27):
don't fully understand, but butI think that like if you're
listening to this podcast andyou're a writer and you're
experiencing what you'recurrently thinking of as
writer's block, just write thewrite the thing that is at the
front of your mind.
Like I think some writers get intheir own way by holding their
(44:48):
best ideas for later.
And I find that it's a lot morehelpful to just spend all your
best ideas right away becausethen they breed new ones, and
that'll help you get throughthat block.
SPEAKER_00 (45:01):
Besides picking up your two-year-old, what's next
for you?
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Yeah, after I pick up, well, I mean, we're gonna go
to the beach, but beyond that,uh uh Mountain Trek's, yeah.
So we we yeah, we have a uhanother mountain trip planned
for next year.
We have another a big surf tripplanned for the spring that I'm
really excited about.
One thing I do every year,there's a beautiful, I don't
(45:31):
know if you've been to PointReyes National Seashore, but
it's just north of SanFrancisco.
And you know, given your your,I'm sure your audience just
loves the outdoors, I think it'sactually like really underrated.
You know, everyone coming toNorthern California goes to
Yosemite, obviously, and theymight go to Lake Tahoe and like
(45:52):
those areas.
They might do the lost coast,right?
But point raise is this likejust a spectacular, spectacular
bit of wilderness that is likebasically an hour and a half
drive from San Francisco, andthere are elk, there are
incredible, like incrediblemountains, incredible views,
incredible coastline.
(46:12):
And every November I host a wethere's a lodge there.
It used to be like a hostel.
It's the only place you can stayin the park if you're not
camping.
And I rent it out everyNovember, and we do like a
Friendsgiving with like 30 or 40friends, family, you know, like
a groups of families, and we allcook together and hike together
(46:36):
and just enjoy the outdoorstogether.
And it's just a reallybeautiful, beautiful thing.
So I'm very excited for that.
And I also think that, like,yeah, anyone listening, if you
happen to be around SanFrancisco, take a day, go check
out your point rates.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Okay, I know, I know you need to go.
Man, there's a lot more that I II want to like pick up your
brain, you know, you theHimalaya kingdom that you
explored, you you know, that'suh that and then you know, the
longest trail in Spain.
I wanted I wanted to hear aboutthat, but it's not the time or
place.
But if and when you want to comeback on, please, Elliot, please
(47:18):
let let me know.
I'll I'll put you on becauseyou're quite the trackser track
trekker and explorer and thenovelist.
So yeah, I know you have to go.
So, Elliot, I appreciate yourtime, the book, and and it's
truly honored to have you on,man.
The podcast, I it really means alot.
(47:39):
And basically, you know, I'venot been in a podcast block, but
I've been putting them out whenI can, you you know, and so I
appreciate you saying yes andbeing episode 260.
So appreciate your time, Elliot.
And appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
So you I really I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you for all the thoughtfulquestions.
I'm really moved to to hear thatyou enjoyed the story.
And yeah, I'm I'm lookingforward to round two.
We can we can rec reconnectsometime too.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
All right.
All right.
Until next time.
Until next time.
Elliot Pepper, how are you, man?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
I'm doing very well.
It's good to connect.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Yeah, finally, right?
After a couple times, coupletimes, but it happens.
People know it happens.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Yeah, of course.
Both, both of our faults.
You gotta get to get those starsaligning.
unknown (00:44):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Kids, real life.
Yeah, kids.
I have three.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
I don't know how many you have, but you know, you
we're I've got one, but he's twoand a half right now, so he's a
bundle of energy.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
Oh, yeah.
So have fun and good luck.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
I need it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
So so Elliot, you you're an author, 12 novels,
right?
You you you reached out earlySeptember.
Don't know how, don't know why,or I don't even know how you
found me, but you found me, butyou knew I like to read and put
authors on.
I had so I have to ask before wego on, how did you find me?
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Yeah, you bet.
So, I mean, I love the outdoors,like I spend a lot of time in
the outdoors.
I live in Pacifica, California.
So when I'm not writing, I'msurfing, and so I'm I'm in the
ocean a lot.
And I also try to spend a lot oftimes in the mountains, you
know, like backpacking and allthat kind of thing.
And so I I love listening topodcasts that are about the
(01:43):
outdoors, that are about thelove of the outdoors, and that's
how I came across the show.
And that's also that the lovethat I feel for spending time in
nature and the the kinds of waysin which spending time in nature
has changed my life is uh islike very much a central theme
of of this of this book.
(02:04):
And so I just thought that youbasically I just thought you
might enjoy it.
Yeah, so that's why that's why Ireached out.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Yeah, yeah, and and and I did, and I love it.
So if you want, you know, youcan tell the title and we'll
we'll start from there.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Sure, yeah.
The yeah, my new novel is calledEnsorceled that came out.
We're recording on a Friday, andit actually came out on
Wednesday.
So it is it's fresh.
And yeah, it's about it's aboutit's a coming of age adventure
about a boy who goes on acamping trip that changes his
life and sort of opens his mind,opens his heart, and rewilds his
(02:38):
attention.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Yeah.
90-minute read.
Never heard of that until I readthis book, and I got it a lot
earlier than most, and and it issigned.
So I appreciate it.
Such an honor to uh have a booksigned by an author and get it
early.
So I've I've I've had my myfeel, my taste, also, you know,
(03:01):
it's it's cerebral.
So I was like, okay, trying todissect it because you know,
I've I've had a f a coupleauthors on and I dissect it and
just blow their minds on youknow my interpretation.
So uh basically without tellingeverybody about the book because
it's a 90-minute book, maincharacter loves video games,
(03:22):
right?
Did you actually put the name ofthe main character?
Tim.
Tim, yes, okay, all right, allright.
I know I know Lenny and Theo andthat, but I've I've I tried to
find the main character's nameand I just couldn't find it.
So Tim.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Yeah, it's uh it's also written in first person, so
that's that's why his name, likeironically, the main character's
name doesn't show up as often asyou might think for that reason.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Yeah, yes, and quite the imagination.
And I'm just gonna stick to thescript.
Went on an adventure with theparents, right?
But meets two characters, Lennyand Theo, had some turmoil, went
on a trip with Lenny on thetrail, and then something
(04:09):
happens and they make it out,right?
But in the midst of all this,it's like they they they have
imagination of the there's thedragons, the colors, the
scenery, the nights, the the thelights from you know their
headlamps and more video gamesthroughout the whole book,
(04:31):
right?
The 90-minute read, and it goesback and forth, and the way you
did it is man, it's like it'smind-blowing, believe it or not.
And sometimes you have to catchyourself, okay, is this real?
Or it like, is it fantasy?
Like, seriously, you you know,and did you make it to be that
way?
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Did so one of the things I was thinking about a
lot as I was writing this storyis that we you earlier on, you
were you were you mentioned thatwe both have kids.
And when my son was born, he'sour first, he's our first kid.
And when he was born, one thingI noticed was that when you
(05:11):
know, when I'd be hanging outwith him at home, I became hyper
aware of whenever I was lookingat my phone, because you know, I
have this newborn, and he'slooking at this amazing world
that he's been born into, right?
It's just like it, likeliterally, you know, a shoe,
like a slipper on the floor isjust like like a completely new
(05:33):
life experience for him, and soeverything is fascinating.
And yet, I imagine seeingmyself, his father, through his
eyes, where he's looking aroundat all this amazing stuff, and
I'm looking at this weirdrectangle in my hand, right?
And for me, I'm looking throughthe phone, I'm looking at what's
in on the internet, it's awindow into this sort of like
(05:55):
digital world.
But for but from hisperspective, I'm just staring at
a weird rectangle, and so thatreally got me, you know, just
more made me more cognizant ofmy basically information diet
and where I was where I wasinvesting my attention.
And and it made and and thatrealization sort of helped
(06:17):
inform this story.
And so for Tam, you know, heloved, as you said, he loves
video games, right?
He loves these very much soyeah, he loves it.
Yeah, and he loves these, youknow, these the and what are
video games?
I mean, they're just likethey're fantasies, right?
They're these fantasies thatthey're they're there's the
imaginary worlds that we get tomess around and play with.
(06:37):
And like when I was growing up,I also loved video games.
Like, I don't have like aproblem with them like
philosophically, like they'refun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So so I think that like youknow, but uh if you if you spend
all your time living inimaginary worlds, whether that's
who whether that's in source ofthe novel that I wrote, which is
(07:00):
like an example of a of afantasy world, right?
Or whether it's a video game, orwhether it's like scrolling
TikTok, like any of theseimaginary virtual worlds, you
miss out on all of like theincredible context and marvels
and wonders that are embedded inthe physical world that we live
(07:20):
in.
And so this story plays withthat a lot, right?
Like he's a he is both a youknow, a 12-year-old who's
obsessed with video games, so hespends a lot of time in
imaginary worlds, but he alsoloves to draw.
So he loves to invent imaginaryworlds, and he's just an
imaginative kid.
(07:41):
So whenever he's like living hislife, when you're seeing the
world through his eyes, he'salways sort of like spinning up
weird like thoughts and ideasabout the things he observes,
right?
So I I that I actually wanted tolike sort of push the boundaries
on that as a writer, as I waswriting this character, because
that's such an important lensthrough him for him, yeah,
(08:04):
through which he experienceslife.
And so that's why when you'rereading the book, there's a lot
of moving back and forth betweenaction where like something's
happening to reflection, wheremaybe he's like thinking about
something that's happening andconnecting that to you know,
connecting it to other dots, andthen like speculation where he's
(08:25):
imagining something that mighthappen next, or connecting it to
games he's played, or what whathave you.
So, yeah, as you read the text,it's very yeah, it's it's it's
very dynamic, it moves a lotbetween action and thought and
imagination.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
And and the way you went through, you know, San
Francisco and the outdoors, youyou know, that's what got me off
sold, you know, outdoorsanything sold, you know.
But the video games and then theoutdoors, I'm like, I need some
more of that.
You you just you you did a greatjob at getting tidbits and
explaining it and then goingfrom this one to the next one.
(09:01):
I mean, superb job.
So, but the outdoors, I waslike, okay, when when we when
are we gonna do it?
When are we gonna do it, right?
So if before I give you my threeways of of seeing it, would you
want to uh say any more aboutyour book before I I I blow my
(09:22):
mind or blow your mind because II I I kinda enjoy just sharing
my thoughts.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
I want to hear your thoughts.
I'm delighted to hear yourthoughts.
Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
All right.
So, one one of the scenes thatreally stood out, right?
Besides the video games intoreal life parents and fighting
parents and arguing with themabout not going, doesn't want to
go, games coming out, this andthat.
I I felt the drive in thatsupposed little accident on the
(09:57):
side of the road, right?
I felt like that was a traumaticevent or a trigger for Tim to
somewhat get lost.
You know, how in real lifesomebody gets triggered, they
find their coping mechanism.
I feel like his thoughts, uh theway he goes from video games to
(10:17):
real life, I felt like it wasone of his ways of coping.
Um a traumatic event, becauseany of that, you know, he almost
got hit, right?
Dad almost got hit, right?
So, so you know, I I I felt thatwas his his way of escaping uh
reality and became a setback andset him back a bit.
(10:38):
That's one.
I I feel that was a major catcat catalyst of the story.
I felt the uh the charactersince he didn't want to go, felt
like he was daydreaming thewhole way up to uh the woods.
Okay.
The and and what is it?
(11:00):
He couldn't he couldn't getenough of the video game, so he
just to get away, to get awayfrom the parents, felt like he
was just daydreaming the wholething.
All right, and lastly, felt likehe was building a world in a
video game, almost like Robloxor the Fortnite Lego.
I like Lego Fortnite, I'm justtelling you.
(11:21):
Loki felt felt like you know, itcould have been he was building
his own world with two otherpeople, you know, and in chat,
and uh he didn't get along withone, so uh him and Lenny made
their own world that night, sawsome things, dealt with some
(11:43):
turmoil, or you know, just alittle adventure of themselves
and got out of it, and thenboom, the end, you know what I
mean.
And that that that that was myinterpretation in those three
little things, and it's justlike, how can I get there?
How can I get there?
I don't know, maybe it's my dayjob.
(12:04):
I I I I don't know, but the wayyou described in the 90 pages,
you know, someone can interpretit in so many ways.
Well done, well done.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
So oh, I really appreciate that.
Yeah, I mean, one thing that Ireally enjoy about as a reader
of of speculative fiction,basically, like of of like
fiction that has theseimaginative elements woven into
it is that my favorite books,it's not just that the books
like the story is imaginative,it's that it makes me imagine
(12:42):
things.
I'm almost like a participant,right?
It's like when you go to watch amovie, everything's up on the
screen in front of you, and likeright that is awesome.
Like, I love good movies, butlike I feel like one really
special thing about books isthat like the reader is you're
filming the movie in your mind,right?
(13:04):
Right.
And so I think that like onelike I love hearing your the the
pieces that stood out for youand the the different lenses
through which you are evaluatingor interpreting the story
because I actually think thatlike that's part of the fun,
right?
Like the fact that like thestory that you can bring
different perspectives to thestory and take different things
(13:26):
out of it is part of like thebeauty of like novels as an art
form.
And so I I just I'm very movedand and I think that's that's
really cool.
And I really appreciate yousharing that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So not full of crud.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
No, no, no.
I mean, I I think that's yeah,that's that's that's yeah,
exactly.
That's part of the fun.
And you know, you mentioned likethe the sort of the car accident
scene, yeah.
And you know, one thing I wasreally thinking a lot about
there that's how how sort ofcourage, you know, some people
(13:58):
call courage the mother ofvirtues because it's like in
order to have any other, like inorder to do anything else, you
sort of need to find courage.
And I think that like one thingI was trying to do in that scene
with with Lenny's character isjust show how he reacts to fear
and how an imaginative kid canreact to fear, right?
(14:21):
It's like we've probably allexperienced in our lives like
something bad happens and wejust go into this bad spiral in
our head, right?
Where you're like, and like youcan't get out, you just get sort
of like locked in.
And like, I mean, I'veexperienced you know, it's like
it keeps you up at night, youjust can't sort of you get stuck
in these loops.
And I think that like part ofpart of the overall arc of Tam
(14:46):
in this story is that we see himlike get trapped in those loops,
and also that like the adventurethat he goes on with his friends
equips him to start breaking outof those loops in a new way,
right?
Which is, I think, something I'malways reaching for when I
struggle.
(15:07):
And like hopefully, you know,readers that can resonate with
readers as well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
So another thing, and your in your eyes, you wrote
the book.
Was Lenny a real friend or wasit imagination?
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Ah okay.
Yeah, I got it, got it, got it.
Yeah, yeah.
This is like the uh yeah, yeah.
Uh this is how how how deep doesthe rabbit hole go?
Kind of a question.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Yeah, okay.
Uh so I like so I'll say I'llgive you what I think, okay, but
I I I want to like add a bigcaveat, which is that like as a
(15:46):
like I think that with art ingeneral, whether it's a movie,
visual art, music, anything,like interpretation is up to the
reader, not up to the author'sintent, right?
So, but I I will share myintent.
It's not like I'm not gonna likekeep it from you or something.
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:03):
You can say yes or no, but totally, totally.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yeah, so so in in my it like the way I envision and
experience the story, like theadventure is real, right?
We have like he like Tam isobsessed with video games, so we
see a lot of that.
He's very imaginative, so we goon all these sort of like
diversions into things that he'sthinking in his head, but then
(16:26):
like the main events of the plotare all like actually happening
rather than like happening inhis head in a like the matrix
kind of way.
Okay, man.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
You had me spinning, okay.
I'm just yeah, yeah, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
But I'm I'm I'm actually like pretty delighted
to hear that that got youspinning because the central
theme of the book is so plays somuch with imagination, with like
interpreting reality indifferent ways.
So I actually think that's likeextremely cool okay that you had
a very different interpretationof it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Okay, well, yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not you
know BSing you, you know, oryour listeners who will be
listening, you know, and mylisteners.
I I definitely want you to checkit out because once you start
going on that adventure withthem, it's almost like you're
there, but then they see thislight and then come about, you
know, so it's like, come on,man, come on, Elliot.
(17:22):
All right, all right.
So, yes.
So, I mean, when I was readingit, I just really dove in and
like, okay, okay, you know, it'sjust like taking notes.
I'm like, all right, all right,okay.
So, did you know that you weregonna make a short book?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
No, I mean the short answer is no.
I actually had imagined thatthis story would like my
original idea for this story wasmuch, much longer.
Like, in fact, this was justsort of like the first, like
like parts of the exist uh ofthe book you read were like sort
of how I imagined maybe thefirst act of like a larger
(18:06):
story.
But like one thing that I foundas a writer is that no idea
survives contact with the enemy,right?
So, like the minute I'm actuallyworking on a story, the minute
I'm actually like in amanuscript, like facing that
blank page, like things changedramatically.
It's it's I I've never written abook where like I had a plan and
(18:29):
the plan worked.
So, so when I was working onthis story, I found that I was
like, wait a minute, like all ofthe important, all of the magic
in the story, all of like thethings that that make it tick,
want to be right here, righthere in what I imagined would be
the beginning.
And and so it sort of itcondensed, it it really like
(18:54):
tightened up compared to what Ithought the initial plan would
be.
And I was actually delighted bythat because I have an
unreasonable affection for shortbooks.
I actually think that this isextremely nerdy, so I hope you
will forgive me, but like in thein the in the weird and
(19:16):
wonderful world of bookpublishing, there are sort of
these norms like the like wherelike a book should be a certain
length, right?
And like not just a book shouldbe a certain length, but like
different books in differentgenres have like normal lengths
associated with them.
And so there's a lot of industrypressure to basically conform to
that.
(19:37):
And it's quite rare to have youknow novellas like these like
small, like small books, but Iquite love them.
Like as a reader, there are afew that have like have really
meant a lot to me.
Like Claire Keegan wrote a bookcalled Foster that's like
shorter than in Source Salt, andit'll just break your heart,
right?
(19:57):
And there was a lovely adventurestory called I think How to Lose
the Time War, that that like waslike very you know, it sort of
like was a surprise hit a coupleof years ago.
But basically, like tiny bookswhere you have a full story arc,
like they you're real it is afull novel, it's just in this
tight, condensed form.
(20:19):
I just have a real affection forthem.
And so once ensurced started tobecome that, I was pretty
delighted.
And I think that maybe one ofthe roots of my like weird
obsession with small books isthat in today's world, we're
sort of surrounded by theopposite.
Like, if you think about likeNetflix, you have all these like
(20:42):
sprawling, loose, messy storiesthat never end and they like
cancel it after two seasons andlike nothing is resolved.
And I find that, like as awriter, when I like watch series
like that or read book serieslike that, I often feel really
frustrated because I'm justlike, tell me, tell me the damn
story.
Like, like an ending is anincredibly important part to uh
(21:06):
to making a story click.
It's like I'm I'm not gonna tellyou a joke without a punchline,
and so so once in source startedstarted to fit that that form
factor of like 90 pages.
I just I thought that was gonnabe super cool, but I had a lot
of I I didn't know if it wasgonna work, and it actually
(21:26):
wasn't.
There was one moment wherebecause you know, I'm working on
a manuscript, right?
I'm like typing on my computerand going through uh countless
rounds of edits and trying toyou know make it the best it can
be.
And when I was looking at that,I was like, you know, I hope
this will work, but I don'treally, you know, it totally
might not.
But then Peter Noel, whodesigned InSource Soul, when he
(21:48):
designed the book, and I am thefirst print proof, like the
first ver print physical versionof it arrived at my house and I
could hold it in my hands.
That was the first moment when Iwas like, Oh, this is something
there's something special here.
Like, this is actually supercool, and I'm really excited to
share it with readers.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
So now that it's out, it was out two days ago,
October 8th.
The plan worked.
Overall, the plan worked.
Can you say yes or no?
Oh, absolutely.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
No, I wasn't sure if that was a statement or a
question.
Yeah, no, I've been, I mean,frankly, like I've been really
overwhelmed and moved by by thereaction from readers to this
book.
And because it's a short book,I'm getting reactions way faster
than I normally do for a novel.
And great work.
(22:41):
Yeah, but I mean, I so comparedthe again, like this is my 12th
book, and I have never receivedso many messages from strangers
from readers who said that thestory brought them to tears.
Like, yeah, compared to anyother book.
So I I don't know, it's reallymoving.
Uh, it's it's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I I I I can see where they canbe moved in tears at that
moment, that light, that thatthe lights.
Um I you know, I'm gonna leavethat, okay?
We'll just say the light.
Once they see the light, you caninterpret in so many other ways,
okay.
Like, all right, I like it.
Why not give us more of thewilderness, though?
(23:23):
That's the only thing because Iwas an outdoorsy guy, I wanted
some more, I wanted some more,and and when you put it out
there, it was a little, a littlebit, and it just like was like,
okay, I need some, I need more.
I was craving more, but then ithappened, and then bam.
Why not give more of thewilderness?
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Well, leaving you wanting more is maybe not a bad
thing in a in a novel.
No, it's not, I know, but uhyeah, yeah.
Uh and uh I will say that mywife reads the rough draft of
every book I write and gives menotes, and she is very honest.
And and one note that she hashad on every single book I've
(24:09):
written is actually what youjust said is like I like more of
this.
And yeah, so I maybe it's just aI don't know.
Uh I I at this point, because Iapparently have not figured out
how to give more over 12 novels,like maybe that's just like a
tick of me as a writer.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
But uh the tease, man.
Yeah, it's outdoors gay.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Yeah, well, I will say though, like as an outdoors
guy, so the the sort of the thethe setting for for the like the
outdoor setting for that for theadventure in the book is
actually like there it isinspired by a series of trips
that we do with a group offriends up to the Sierra
Nevadas.
(24:52):
And there's this sort of likesecret backcountry lake where we
we get out there with all ourkids and everything every summer
for a week and and just do justenjoy the incredible backcountry
that is you know is so prevalentin the American West.
And so there's actually like avery specific secret lake that
like inspired this precisestory, and so it was actually a
(25:17):
real joy both to be able to tryto bring a place, like a a place
from the a very specific placefrom the outdoors into into a
novel, you know, you know, andto channel my love for it in
trying to write all of thesections about that place.
(25:37):
And it was also a real joy tohave an excuse because I was
writing about it to like do likejust strange, weird niche
research to inform you know someof the the components of the
story.
So I would actually say that ifif any of your listeners like,
and actually, this is veryrelevant to like the section
(25:58):
about tan drawing, like I feellike if you love the outdoors,
one thing that would be worthexperimenting with is if you
don't currently like write ordraw or make music or
necessarily have some kind oflike creative outlet to develop
one precisely to basically givea channel for your love of the
(26:20):
outdoors.
Because I found that likewriting about like places I love
in nature has given me an evendeeper appreciation for them
when I'm there.
So I feel like maybe you feelsomething similar making this
podcast, right?
You get you know, you sort ofreally get to reflect on that.
And I feel like for anyone, likeyou don't have whatever you
don't have to publish books, youcan just write it in a journal
(26:41):
or whatever, right?
But like it just it it sort oflike distills your attention and
and and just allows you toreally like experience like the
beauty of the world we live inin a new way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Okay, you pretty much read my mind because that
was the the next question.
What inspired you?
So I appreciate you just readingmy mind and uh saying so.
So who or what has inspired youto be the writer you are today?
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Well, you know, growing up, I always was like a
total bookworm.
So I would hide in the librarystack so my parents couldn't
find me to take me home andstuff like that.
You know, I I would actuallyvery rarely read what was
assigned to me in school andinstead just read whatever
whatever I wanted.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
You're one of those, one of those, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Um but so I've always just loved reading, and
and what inspired me to write myfirst novel, and then you know,
12 novels later, what inspiredme to write and sourciled are
are the same thing, which isbasically like I there, I have
an idea for a book I want toread.
I'm just like I want thisfeeling as a reader, and
(28:00):
nothing, and I try to find it,right?
Like I sort of try to seek itout as a reader, but when I
can't figure out how to scratchthat itch, that's when I'm like,
okay, like I'm gonna sit downand try to to to write this book
because if it can scratch my ownitch, maybe there are other
people who share my taste,right?
(28:22):
And yeah, again, I don't know ifmaybe you can identify like with
the podcast, like when you tookthe leap to start producing it,
like you had to have a read,right?
You had to sort of like youwanted there's a gap in the
world you want to fill.
And that that's how I that's howI feel.
And that's sort of like theyeah, like the the feeling
behind every book.
And obviously each book isdifferent, right?
(28:43):
It's like a different, like ithas different ideas, a different
story, and all that, but likethat's the unifying factor that
I'm always like I write the bookI want to read.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
Your author, your number one author.
You can't miss, you have toread.
Well, what's the one author youenjoy?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
Oh okay.
Well, you said you lovenonfiction, and at the beginning
of our conversation, I mentionedthat that I am a I surf, and
there's an incredible memoircalled Barbarian Days of
Surfing.
Yes, William Finnegan.
I don't know.
Have you oh you've read it?
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
I I've seen it.
I've been trying to think ofAudible one day.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
So yeah, I mean, I I like I personally heartily
recommend it, and I thinklisteners of your podcast would
like love it because he hewrites about the ocean and about
surfing and about like surfexploration, like go like
crossing the world, going to allthese super remote places to try
(29:49):
to access unique places innature in a way that is just
phenomenal.
Like I've literally never readprose about waves like.
Hit like he like he writes.
And I would also say that it isnot you do not need to be
interested in surfing to lovethe book because it is very,
(30:12):
yeah, it's very much written forsomeone who's interested in the
outdoors, who's interested innature, and who's interested in
like how that helps you grow,right?
And it's just it's reallybeautiful.
It's it's a yeah, reallyphenomenal story.
And I'd say that like on theflip side, if you if you're if
(30:34):
you listen to this conversationand something that resonates
with you is like the like asmall, concise, punchy, like
piece of fiction that has somelike weird and interesting, sort
of speculative or fantasticalelements that really make you
think and take you to placesmaybe you weren't expecting.
(30:54):
Yeah.
There's a beautiful book calledPuranesi by Susanna Clark.
And it's just this, yeah, like Ididn't really know what to
expect going in, and I'm sort ofglad I didn't know anything
about it.
It it totally just like won meover right away and took me on a
wild ride.
So I'd say that those would belike two different sides of the
coin.
(31:14):
Like if you're enjoying thisconversation, that like those
would be really cool books tocheck out.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Okay.
Your your book and source holdis a lot different from your
other books, correct?
That you you're mostly sci-fi.
This is kind of sci-fi, but moreoutdoorsy and it can interpret
in so many ways in my eyes, youknow, my weird eyes.
If not sci-fi, what other genredo you prefer or write?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Oh, write or uh okay, okay.
As a reader, I read like almosteverything.
Like I'm I I don't like stick togenres as a reader.
I read really across the board.
As a writer, yes, like most ofmy books are like near future
science fiction.
So they're not science fictionin the sense of like space, like
Star Wars, yeah, likespaceships.
(32:07):
They're more science fiction inthe sense of like Jurassic Park,
right?
Like, like this, like, oh, whatif what if the world was
different in this specific way?
And so I that that's that's likemy other books are much more
like that.
What's sort of interesting isthat genre is is super
important, right?
Like genre tells us what toexpect from a story, and so you
(32:32):
know, like if you pick up a bookwith the dragon on the cover,
you're probably gonna expect,you know, a a boy in a small
town who you know grows into hispower and saves the world from
evil with his ragtack goofyfriends.
And if you read a murdermystery, you're gonna expect
that you're gonna find out whodid it, right?
By the end.
(32:53):
And so, like, I and like as areader, I totally I mean,
obviously, like I pay attentionto genre, but what's weird as a
writer, the like the I don'twrite like the like when I
approach, like I said, like thething that leads me into a book
is I have an idea for a storythat I want to exist in the
(33:14):
world, yeah.
And so I never start with genre.
So to me, as a writer, when Ithink about genre, it's like a
carpenter who has like would adddifferent tools to his toolbox
depending on the project he'sworking on, right?
So it's like, you know, you'rebuilding a house that's gonna be
different than building a desk.
And and so for me, I actuallylike Insourced Wild is similar
(33:37):
to my other novels in that I usea lot of different tools from
different genres in every book Iwrite.
So like Insourced has a bunch offantasy elements in it, but it
is very different from HarryPotter or like The Lord of the
Rings, right?
Yeah, like it has some sci-fielements in it, but it's very
(33:58):
different from both JurassicPark and Star Wars.
Like it's neither of thosethings.
And it has some thrillerelements in it because it's like
fast-paced and there are twistsand things like that.
Yeah, but like it's certainlynot like a, you know, like a
like the uh, you know, athriller that you would like
watch on HBO that's about likesomeone being kidnapped and
(34:19):
murdered or something like that.
And so what that meansultimately as an author is that
my books are very hard to marketbecause it's hard to describe
them, right?
You're like, well, is it afantasy story or what?
Uh but because I enjoy that somuch as a reader, I think that
like the readers who love mybooks, even though they're hard
(34:42):
to market, really love them forthat reason, right?
They are they sort of likesurprise you and use these
different tools in in ways youmight not expect.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
So my descriptions, my three like thought-out ways
of how this book went is not toofar off.
No, I think you're totally onpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah, good, good, good, yeah, no, and and like
being perfectly honest, it's astruggle for me whenever I like
have a book, I've written thebook, and now I'm like, how do I
describe this book to people?
Like, that's one of the hardestparts is like like writing the
the back cover copy, you know,like the or like the Amazon
(35:23):
description.
It's like, oh my god, where do Ieven start?
SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
Yeah, and and the more I I read the book, right?
And and I was seeing like whatother books you wrote, you wrote
12 other novels and everythingelse.
One interesting thing thatreally I'm gonna pick up.
Uh hopefully you sign it if I ifif I purchase a book on your
website, will you sign it?
Yes, will others if theypurchase on your website, will
(35:48):
you sign it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah, okay.
So actually, this is sort offun.
So this is a new thing for me.
So okay, one thing like I'veI've always really enjoyed like
getting signed copies fromauthors I love, but it's sort of
hard to do it, right?
It's like if if they're not ifthey don't happen to be doing an
event in your city that you canattend, like how do you even get
(36:09):
that?
And so earlier this year, Idecided that in addition to like
distributing my books throughthe normal channels, like you
can order them on Amazon or yourlocal bookstore or get them at
the library or whatever, that inaddition to that, I was gonna
start selling them directlythrough my website.
Where and and so I started doingthat just this year.
(36:30):
And and whenever if you buy itdirectly from me, I literally
like next to where we'rerecording, I have I have like a
label, a printer label printerand like you know, packaging,
like I hold a small amount ofinventory of the books.
And I before we startedrecording, literally just walked
the dog to drop off a bunch ofsigned copies at the the post
(36:53):
office to send out to readers.
So yeah, so it's it's a funny,really small, delightful like
operation.
So if you want to go direct,yeah, if you if you order any of
my books off my website, I willpersonally sign and send them to
you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Okay.
The the reason why I ask isbecause you the one that caught
my interest was the AI book thatyou and because uh you know the
AI is a huge thing on socialmedia, and you you can make
videos on AI, realistic videos,maybe their hands or something
distorted, but it's kind ofreal.
(37:28):
So before I purchase that, Ijust want to ask your question
is AI good or bad?
Are there more pros than cons?
Or what's your thought on itbefore I pick up that book?
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Yeah, okay, so I really think that it is
extraordinary what computerswhat we've made computers have
been able to do, right?
Like I was just talking, uh mydad was over for dinner the
other night, and he was born in1944 in Amsterdam, so like in
(38:04):
Nazi-occupied Holland.
And and he didn't he never rodein a car or a plane or like
spoke on a telephone, or likebasically any things that we
would consider like table stakesmodern technology, he didn't
experience until he was like 12years old when they like
emigrated to the US.
(38:25):
And and like when I think aboutlike the arc and like now he's
using Chat GPT, right?
You know, it's like it's like apretty wild like arc that we've
been on as a as a culture.
And I think it's absolutelyastonishing and super surprising
that like it turns out computerscan can can work with language,
(38:48):
can can actually like work withlanguage in the way that these
new models do.
Like, and not just not justEnglish, but like also like all
of like all kinds of hiddenpatterns.
That's how the the the visualones work.
So I think it's likeextraordinary.
I think it's super useful.
And I also think that like anynew technology, it just it's a
(39:09):
huge chaos factor in society,right?
So like I I write novels whenthe printing press was first
introduced, it totally was amassive chaos factor in society.
It caused the hundred years'war, like there are so many
things that came out of theprinting press that like were
completely unexpected to anyoneat the time, very much including
(39:33):
those in power, very muchincluding like the large
institutions, and like it had alot of very negative
consequences, in addition to alot of really positive
consequences, and and it took along time to figure out the
difference, right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
So we're finding in the new age, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
So I think we are in one of those.
You said you like to readhistory.
I feel like we are living in oneof those exciting times in
history right now.
Like that's always, you know,like that that's a dangerous
place to be, but it's also likea quite exciting place to be.
Okay.
And so, yeah, like the thingthat that I try to think about
(40:10):
as a writer when it comes to newAI tools is not like like
there's a lot of discussionright now, and I think it's very
worthy discussion, aboutbasically how these tools can
substitute for things peoplecurrently do, right?
And like, and the socialrepercussions of that.
So that's all like will jot willyou lose jobs because like it's
(40:34):
doing the tasks that those jobsare hired to do, etc.
Yeah.
But the thing I try to thinkabout as a writer is, and like
maybe this applies to you as apodcaster as well, I don't know,
is like, okay, like that's oneangle, but like another angle is
what is possible with thesetools that could never have been
(40:56):
possible before.
Yeah, and that's actually, Ifind a much more interesting
place to try to like experiment.
And like I feel like the samewas true with the printing
press, right?
Like it took a couple hundredyears for like novels to really
become a thing after theprinting press was popularized,
and like now they've found theirform.
(41:17):
And the same is true for movies.
Like when film was firstdeveloped, like it took a while,
it took a couple decades forlike the modern feature film
that's like two hours with thistight story, you know, just like
what we think of as a movie, ittook a while for that to like
come into being.
And so I feel like right nowthere's a lot of like
(41:38):
experimentation and dumb stuffbeing done and cool stuff being
done, and you know, we'll sortof see how it plays out.
But if you're like experimentingwith this tools, that's what I
would try to focus on is likehow can you try to like make
things that wouldn't otherwiseexist?
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Gotcha.
We're we're getting close totime, so I appreciate you
entertaining that.
How long how soon will we haveto wait or how long for your
next book?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
Oh god, I don't know yet.
I haven't started writing it.
Okay, so yeah, so I I have a fewideas and I always sort of let
them percolate a little bit andthen start start sort of pushing
them and start start writing.
And so I I I'm not I I don'tknow.
So I you know, I'd say that I'vebeen on a cadence of roughly a
(42:32):
book every year or two, and Ihope that the next one will be
somewhere in that range, but notknowing what it is yet, I can't
make any hard promises.
Is writer's writer's block realor a myth?
I think it's a myth, honestly.
Like it that's not that theprocess can't be hard, but you
(42:54):
know, like does a heart surgeonhave surgeon's block?
Like, no, you might they shemight have a bad day, but she
doesn't have surgeon's block.
And frankly, I feel the samething is true.
That doesn't mean that likeyou're you always feel inspired,
(43:18):
but one thing that I found as anot as a novelist is that like
maybe if you're a poet, you canonly write when you're inspired,
and that works for you becauseyou have this moment of clarity
and you just spend all thatenergy in one poem.
But writing a novel is amarathon, not a sprint.
(43:40):
And if I waited to write until Ifelt inspired, you know, I
wouldn't have released onenovel, let alone 12.
And so the thing that alwayssurprises me is when I write a
manuscript and I go back andread it for the first time, read
that rough draft over for thefirst time, I'm always shocked
(44:03):
because the feeling ofinspiration seems to have almost
nothing to do with the qualityof the output.
That like I can be quiteuninspired, maybe feel
uninspired as I was writing acertain chapter, and that might
be the best chapter in the book.
And so it's it's yeah, I don'tknow.
I I there's some weirdpsychology at work there that I
(44:27):
don't fully understand, but butI think that like if you're
listening to this podcast andyou're a writer and you're
experiencing what you'recurrently thinking of as
writer's block, just write thewrite the thing that is at the
front of your mind.
Like I think some writers get intheir own way by holding their
(44:48):
best ideas for later.
And I find that it's a lot morehelpful to just spend all your
best ideas right away becausethen they breed new ones, and
that'll help you get throughthat block.
SPEAKER_00 (45:01):
Besides picking up your two-year-old, what's next
for you?
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Yeah, after I pick up, well, I mean, we're gonna go
to the beach, but beyond that,uh uh Mountain Trek's, yeah.
So we we yeah, we have a uhanother mountain trip planned
for next year.
We have another a big surf tripplanned for the spring that I'm
really excited about.
One thing I do every year,there's a beautiful, I don't
(45:31):
know if you've been to PointReyes National Seashore, but
it's just north of SanFrancisco.
And you know, given your your,I'm sure your audience just
loves the outdoors, I think it'sactually like really underrated.
You know, everyone coming toNorthern California goes to
Yosemite, obviously, and theymight go to Lake Tahoe and like
(45:52):
those areas.
They might do the lost coast,right?
But point raise is this likejust a spectacular, spectacular
bit of wilderness that is likebasically an hour and a half
drive from San Francisco, andthere are elk, there are
incredible, like incrediblemountains, incredible views,
incredible coastline.
(46:12):
And every November I host a wethere's a lodge there.
It used to be like a hostel.
It's the only place you can stayin the park if you're not
camping.
And I rent it out everyNovember, and we do like a
Friendsgiving with like 30 or 40friends, family, you know, like
a groups of families, and we allcook together and hike together
(46:36):
and just enjoy the outdoorstogether.
And it's just a reallybeautiful, beautiful thing.
So I'm very excited for that.
And I also think that, like,yeah, anyone listening, if you
happen to be around SanFrancisco, take a day, go check
out your point rates.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Okay, I know, I know you need to go.
Man, there's a lot more that I II want to like pick up your
brain, you know, you theHimalaya kingdom that you
explored, you you know, that'suh that and then you know, the
longest trail in Spain.
I wanted I wanted to hear aboutthat, but it's not the time or
place.
But if and when you want to comeback on, please, Elliot, please
(47:18):
let let me know.
I'll I'll put you on becauseyou're quite the trackser track
trekker and explorer and thenovelist.
So yeah, I know you have to go.
So, Elliot, I appreciate yourtime, the book, and and it's
truly honored to have you on,man.
The podcast, I it really means alot.
(47:39):
And basically, you know, I'venot been in a podcast block, but
I've been putting them out whenI can, you you know, and so I
appreciate you saying yes andbeing episode 260.
So appreciate your time, Elliot.
And appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
So you I really I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you for all the thoughtfulquestions.
I'm really moved to to hear thatyou enjoyed the story.
And yeah, I'm I'm lookingforward to round two.
We can we can rec reconnectsometime too.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
All right.
All right.
Until next time.
Until next time.
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