July 17, 2025 • 30 mins
Stuck in the research loop with insomnia?
You’re not alone.
When sleep becomes unpredictable, researching feels like the next best thing to do. Because at least you're doing something… right?
But what if that something is quietly reinforcing the very problem you’re trying to solve?
In this episode, Beth and Michelle talk about why it’s so easy to get trapped in the research loop, and why it’s so hard to get out.
Listen as we explore:
- Why researching creates the illusion of safety
- How it keeps us stuck in fear instead of freedom
- Why true recovery begins when you stop searching for it
If you’ve been operating from the belief that more knowledge equals more sleep, this conversation will gently challenge that idea—and invite you into a new one.
Enjoy! 🧡
Previous Episodes with Michelle:
Ep. 7: The Lighter Side of Insomnia
Ep 48. Belief or Behavior: Which Comes First? w/ Michelle Weil
Michelle’s Website: https://hopefulmind.com/
Connect with Beth:
👉 Instagram
Work with Beth:
👉 Learn About the Mind. Body. Sleep. Mentorship
👉 Start the Free Insomnia Course Here
Full Show Notes & Transcription HERE.
About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:
For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.
© 2023 - 2025 Beth Kendall
DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurances as to any particular outcome.
Mind. Body. Sleep.® with Beth Kendall is your trusted source for holistic insomnia recovery, blending neuroplasticity, nervous system health, and mind-body coaching to help you finally sleep again.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the Mind Body Sleep
Podcast.
My name is Beth.
(00:26):
I'm a sleep coach for peoplewith insomnia.
And I am super happy to bejoined once again by another
sleep coach who also justhappens to be one of my closest
friends.
Her name is Michelle Vay.
Welcome, Michelle.
Hi, and thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm happy to be back.
Well, I'm so glad you're back.
(00:46):
And for any of the listeners outthere who aren't familiar with
Michelle, this is, is it thethird time?
I think it's the third.
I think maybe fourth.
Might be fourth.
She's been on the pod.
And if you haven't listened toher other episodes, you
absolutely must because they'reamazing.
I'll link those up in the shownotes.
But Michelle and I are alwaystalking about all the podcasts
(01:09):
that we could do togetherbecause we talk pretty much
every day.
And I feel so fortunate to havethat friend in my life that you
can bounce the same idea off athousand different ways.
And you know, it just never getsold.
But we were talking about therole of researching when you
have insomnia.
(01:30):
And I think it's safe to saythat many, if not most of us who
run into the experience ofinsomnia are pretty good
researchers.
So, Michelle, if you wouldn'tmind kicking us off by telling
us first a bit about you and howthe role of researching played
out in your experience ofinsomnia.
(01:51):
But first, I have to say, Iwasn't sure if I was going to
bring this up, but I'm thinkingto your message that you left
right before we got on the Zoomcall.
And I think there's somethingthat you want the world to know
about watermelon.
Ah well, which part, Beth?
Maybe we could just have a quicklittle mini pod on everything
(02:14):
we've learned about watermelon.
Folks, we are having awatermelon summer.
And the way this all played outis I finally, in my 50s, got an
adult chef's knife.
Like a really, like I'm reallyfinely adulting when you get the
real knife.
And this led to watermelon is myall-time favorite food, but I
(02:37):
don't like chopping thewatermelon.
And so my boyfriend got me thisbeautiful knife, and we learned
all about knives and how to holdthem and what to look for, and
it was fascinating.
And he loves the process ofchopping watermelon, and this
has created a daily watermelonexperience in my summer.
So I was telling Michelle aboutthis, like this something called
(02:58):
black diamond watermelons.
And I know you don't have themin Canada, Michelle.
I'm so sorry for you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Wait, wait, we might.
I just haven't found one yet.
It might not be the season.
I think you have to wait tillthe end of season.
So I have not given up.
Okay, good.
I might actually have to quoteresearch that on the You might.
I we may have to research theblack.
I've already done a little bitof research, but I will have to
dive back in.
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
It's so apropos.
But yeah, so I was tellingMichelle it kind of opened up
with this black diamondwatermelon.
And she got to thinking, youknow, life, like, why wouldn't
we have watermelon all summer?
And the ripple effect of thiswatermelon story has like, you
know, my parents have now hadnonstop watermelon.
The minute they finish one, theygo out and get another one, and
they're only like three dollarsdown in Arizona, these giant
(03:44):
watermelons.
And so, Michelle, like tell thelisteners quick and like a
condensed version of what youwere telling me earlier today
because I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Well, first of all, I had watermelon right before
jumping on this podcast, ofcourse.
So that was just it's just partof my day now.
And I love that you have theadult knife.
It's a very adult experience tohave the good.
I have a good knife as well.
And it's it's I feel like suchan adult using it.
Yes.
And I find cutting, I'm thewatermelon cutter in our house,
(04:15):
and I find it very satisfying tocut up a watermelon.
Feels very productive.
And we were talking about how tofind a good one.
Yeah.
How to find a good one.
And this is something that I hadbeen researching.
And it goes exactly.
And you know what?
Proud, very proud of researchingand all the things.
(04:37):
And I found out something newyesterday about picking out a
good watermelon that I was veryexcited to tell you about
because I didn't know if youknew and you didn't.
So this is all verylife-changing.
But we were talking aboutlooking for a watermelon with a
certain weight or density.
Like it looks, if it lookssmall, but it's kind of heavy,
that's a good sign.
Yeah.
(04:57):
That yellow patch, you wantthat.
That's good.
Don't shy away from that.
That can mean it's a sweetwatermelon.
And then what I learnedyesterday was the ends, they
have a stem, and then there'sthis little, I don't know what
to call it.
I was calling it a nubbin.
Yeah.
The nubbin on the other side.
You want to look for thesmallest nubbin possible because
(05:20):
that means it was on the vinelonger.
It's sweeter.
So I'm excited to take all thisresearch and go out and see if I
can optimize and find absolutelythe best watermelon that I can
possibly find.
And I'm excited because I'mprobably gonna go out possibly
after this podcast to gowatermelon shopping.
I love it.
(05:41):
It's that important.
It's become that important in myhousehold to have yellow melon.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
And you know, I had no idea about the stem, like
looking for the stem that way.
And I just have to add, becausemy dad told me this when I was
down there last week, that withthe yellow, you have to look for
it to be buttery yellow.
Yes, yes, that is the key word.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
So glad you said that.
I'm glad you said that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Yes, you want to look for a buttery yellow.
It's important.
Yeah, yeah, because it meansthat it's been, it wasn't picked
too early.
It's been on the ground longenough to ripen.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah.
So it's like this, it's verycounterintuitive because if you
see a watermelon and it actuallylooks, let's say, very pretty,
just green, you might want toget it, but you really want to
look for that buttery yellowspot.
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Want to look for the uglywatermelon.
Exactly.
It looks a little uglier, butit's gonna taste better.
And then we could do, I mean,again, we could go on for a long
(06:38):
time.
We each have different cuttingsystems.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Just do a podcast on watermelons with every for how
much time we have devoted thissummer to talking about
watermelons, because we go intohow to cut the watermelon.
Yeah, there's different ways.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
And you know what?
I think there's a right way.
I'm just gonna say we could havea whole debate about that.
Huge debates, totally.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
So, I mean, I think this is a like the perfect segue
into this topic of researching.
So, okay, so back to you andtell us about you and what
researching looked like for you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Sure.
So just like Beth, I'm a sleepcoach as well.
And I struggled with reallysevere insomnia for about five
years before recovering andcoming into the coaching space.
And when we were first thinkingabout this topic, all the
memories of how much of aresearcher I really was started
to come back to me.
(07:35):
And before I really understoodinsomnia, and I was in these
years of really just confusionand fear and not understanding
what was going on.
Why couldn't I sleep?
Why did I have so many symptoms?
Why was I constantly anxious?
And I just felt like my brainand body was no longer my own.
(07:57):
I didn't understand anything.
So during those years, I wasreally constantly in a research
loop of some kind.
Now the topics would change.
I might stay on a topic for evenmore than a year at a time.
I was, I mean, I was an avidresearcher.
I think I could have been paidto be a researcher during this
(08:20):
time.
That's how in depth I could eventake courses.
And, you know, I would spend somuch time reading papers and
Googling and books.
I mean, you name it.
I was deep into research modefor years and years at a time.
I was trying to sort of turnover every rock and look under
(08:43):
it.
Could this be it?
Could this be how I was broken?
What about this?
What about, you know, everytopic from hormones to
dysautonomia to Parkinson's to,I mean, gosh, just I can't even
list them all.
Just all the things.
And yeah, it was very consuming.
Yeah.
And it also felt at the timeextremely necessary.
(09:07):
Yes.
Extremely felt like a life ordeath, you know, situation.
And so that, and that I neededto research my way out of that
life or death situation,essentially is what it felt
like.
So it felt like the mostessential research that, you
know, I could be doing.
And I would never have known atthe time that, you know, that,
well, one, that it wasn't goingto lead anywhere and that it was
(09:30):
actually part of what wasfueling this really hard
experience that I was having.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yes.
Everything that you're saying,so very similar to my own
experience.
And of course, I mean, I had,you know, I had insomnia for
decades.
So my researching evolved.
I mean, I remember as a younggirl checking out books at the
library and reading them andthen turning them back in and
(09:59):
checking them out again andreading them again.
And then, of course, you know,my researching skills evolved
over the eras with theintroduction of Google, which
honestly just 10xed everything.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
Oh my goodness.
I'm trying to, I have such now,I have a moment of such empathy
that your research period wasalso before Google.
So you had to really earn it.
You were really, you were a realresearcher.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
Yeah.
I mean, how deeply thisbehavioral pattern became
ingrained with my way of life.
And, you know, of course, withthe internet, you know, the
researching capacity just got,you know, so much bigger.
And I'm just, I'm reallyoverloading my brain with just a
tremendous amount ofinformation.
Yet I didn't understand how Icould know so much about sleep,
(10:50):
but still struggle with it morethan anyone I knew.
And it just would be thisvicious cycle of, okay, well,
I've got to learn more, I've gotto learn more, I've got to learn
more.
And I think, you know, youreally touched on it with that
word confusion is because Ididn't understand what was going
on.
And no one could really explainit to me.
You know, the places, thepeople, the things I was doing
(11:11):
to seek help weren't helping me.
And so I think, you know, theallure of researching for me was
that it made me feel like I wasdoing something.
You know, it was like, you know,and it really did on some level
become a bit of an addiction forme, but it it made me feel
(11:32):
productive.
It made me feel protective.
You know, I couldn't find helpanywhere else, but at least I
could keep going online and tryto find that peace that surely
had to be out there somewhere,you know?
And like I said, I think, youknow, looking for that
information or that peace in andof itself became an addiction.
(11:54):
But, you know, how many timeshave we heard people say to us,
you know, I kind of gave it onelast ditch effort and I went
online and that's when I foundyou.
So it isn't like it's all bad.
It's really not, because in someways, you know, people, this is
how they find us.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
But plus we've just established that the watermelon
research was very necessary.
Look how fruitful.
Look how fruitful the well done.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
Well done.
So so yeah, I mean, this is sucha you know, just such a common
thing that our folks run upagainst.
But here's the thing, you know,let me ask you this, Michelle.
When would you say thatresearching stops becoming
helpful?
Yeah.
Or when does it become a bit ofa trap?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Well, I think the first thing to know is that what
we're describing is really likeI like how you use that word, it
becomes sort of addictive.
You're in it, it feels likeyou're, it's like, well, at
least I'm doing something,right?
And it feels very necessary.
And I think a lot of it reallywas a result of being in that
for both of us and for so manypeople, being in this constant
(13:06):
sort of fight or flight survivalresponse, where the story of
being in that survival responseis I gotta fix it now or else.
Right.
And if if that's not even aconscious story, that's the
feeling of being there is I I'vegot to fix it now or else, all
the time, all the time sort ofdriving that research loop.
(13:30):
Yep.
And so where it becomesunhelpful is really when it
becomes this very fear-drivenprocess, right?
Where it's an extension of thatfear.
And it's so tricky because inthe moment it can feel a little
better because, like what youjust said, it feels like you're
doing something.
And the part of us that feelslike we really want to fix and
(13:52):
control will feel better bydoing this.
And so it does feel a little bitbetter, but it never actually
gets us where we want to go.
And it just becomes this veryfear-driven process as opposed
to what you mentioned before,like a learning-driven process,
which is very, very different.
(14:13):
And so thinking about well,what's actually driving this?
Is this fear or is this a desireto learn or something that feels
inspiring and joyful orsomething that can be enjoyed in
some way?
It's really a differentunderlying driver.
What do you think?
100%.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
You know, and I think the watermelon research is
a perfect example of this.
Like, this has not been afear-driven research process, it
is sheer interest.
And how fascinating that there'sthese videos out there that show
you how to like cut a watermelonin the most efficient way.
So, yeah, I think it it goesback to intention, you know, as
(14:56):
it so often does.
And, you know, the ways that Isee researching becoming a bit
of a trap is when you're insomething.
So sometimes like people mightbe in the program and they know
it's helping them.
Yeah.
But then they're looking, youknow, just in case.
(15:18):
You know what I mean?
And so it's like this ishelping, but what if I'm missing
something out there?
I've got to look just in case,you know?
Very human, you know, veryhuman.
That's really common.
That's a big one.
It is, yeah.
And I think another way it canbecome less helpful, and this is
something you can definitelylook for, is when you leave a
(15:43):
span of research feeling moreanxious instead of less.
You know, that's that's sort ofa clue that, okay, this is
something you might want tovisit.
Or like back to my first point,you begin to start doubting what
is helping you or what isworking for you.
unknown (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
You know, like when research starts pulling you out
of that, then you know, okay,this is not as helpful.
This is becoming less helpfulfor me.
And of course, the biggest one Ithink is that when researching
starts pulling you out of trustwith your own body, right?
And we unconsciously startoutsourcing our own inner
(16:30):
knowingness to Google or justsome sort of authority out there
that we put more stock in thanour own natural wisdom that we
all hold inside.
And I think for me, that's whatI have to be very aware of, and
also just that back to theintention of am I looking for
(16:53):
something to fix me, you know,because the invisible message
back to ourselves with thatintention is that what we are or
something within us is broken.
Or is it strictly from thateducational standpoint?
I want to understand more aboutthis, I want to understand my
experience, I want to know moreabout watermelon.
(17:13):
I know, you know, that's such adifferent, that is such a
different driver than the fixingorientation.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Oh hugely.
Yes, that's completelydifferent.
Yeah.
But I think what you touched onis the most important piece of
this is that it can take us awayfrom our own inner knowing, our
own trust, our our ownintuition, and think that we
have to outsource that somewhereexternally.
We're gonna find the answer outthere if we just keep digging
(17:42):
and keep digging and trying tofix.
And it's like we're not lookingin the one place we could
actually find the most helpfulinformation within ourselves.
And even when we're in states ofanxiety and we're feeling
scared, we can still access ourown inner knowing.
It can feel a little bit harderwith that sort of noise around
(18:05):
it, but it's still there.
And that's always gonna lead ussomewhere so much more helpful
than any amount of all thisexternal research.
Or, or, and would you agree thatthat is actually the thing that
can point you in the directionof maybe research that could be
helpful versus feeling like youhave to do all the research
about all the things?
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Yeah.
Like I said, I think, you know,sometimes people research itself
isn't good or bad.
It is just like how we're usingit and getting to know ourselves
and how we're in relationshipwith this experience of insomnia
and in relationship with sleepand starting to notice like how
(18:45):
am I using this or what is theintention, or noticing like if
it's a fear-driven process, likejust like it's really learning
about yourself, I think, youknow.
But the research in and ofitself isn't bad or good.
It's just how we're using it.
And um sometimes it can behelpful.
I mean, I think about how much,you know, we were talking about
this before we hit record, howmuch information is out in the
(19:11):
world right now, and it's it'sso available and so at your
fingertips.
And I think that can be reallylike a really fun thing.
But then it's also being able torecognize, oh, I'm going into
overwhelm.
I'm putting too much informationinto my head, and now it's time
to take a break.
And, you know, so there's prosand cons, and it's just about,
you know, knowing yourself,knowing your intentions, and
(19:34):
also I think recognizing what doyou want for yourself on some
level.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Oh, absolutely.
Do you think there can also be apart sometimes for people where
going back into research ormaybe even staying in that
research loop can start tosometimes become about
avoidance?
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
You found that?
Yeah.
Oh, definitely.
I well, a couple of ways.
Like one of the ways I wasthinking about this is I think
it's human nature to want tolook for the easier path.
You know, it's so much easier tofind a supplement or, you know,
some external thing.
It's easier than changingyourself or doing, you know, or
(20:17):
doing the inner work of meetingthis fear, you know?
Um so it's that's some of it.
And then you were talking moreabout like what is the feeling?
If you didn't do the research,what would be the feeling that
would show up in the space ofthat, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I just want to really agree withwhat you were saying because if
it could be caused by, let'ssay, something else that we
could take a pill for, forexample, but then we wouldn't
have to then be with it or wewouldn't have to do any inner
work.
Yep.
Which is of course the hardstuff, right?
So that avoidance piece.
And then the same idea is if wedidn't do that in the moment,
(20:56):
what is the discomfort that'sactually coming up?
Yeah.
And so that can be that can besuch a useful exercise.
And I do that with so many of myclients, whether they might be
using researching as anavoidance or some sort of a
reassurance seeking.
Yeah.
I might ask them to pause thenext time they are drawn into,
(21:17):
you know, the day of Googling,so to speak, just pause first
and actually just notice whatkind of discomfort is present
for them.
Like what is actually coming upthat is driving this.
And so much of the time it'sfear.
It's some kind, it's, you know,it's it's really fear.
And if they're able to reallywork with the fear in the
moment, a lot of the times theneed for that research or that
(21:42):
afternoon of Googling, it justfalls away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It falls away completely.
So that's something that cancome up as well as even just
noticing what is going on.
And I think that's especiallytrue when someone is already
educated.
They really already understandwhat's going on.
So I'm not talking about, youknow, people at the very
(22:03):
beginning where they're justlearning what's happening.
It's a little bit later that yousee this pattern a little bit
more.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think when you start,that's such a good, that's such
a good point, talking about likehow we can like work with this
loop.
And, you know, something thatcomes to mind is I think the
first thing is just not turningit into a rule or a restriction,
(22:30):
like something you shouldn't orcan't do, or having it be like
all or nothing.
Because I think the minute weturn something into a rule or
restriction, it's likeautomatically creates this
fixation and you just want to doit more.
Yeah.
Which is why, you know, I don'tdiets, I just have never felt
like really work.
It just immediately creates thislike total focus on it.
(22:50):
Yes, exactly.
I must have the cake now.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's like, it's not make orbreak, you know, it's it's more
like, oh, I think what reallyhelped me start to because, and
we talked about this a littlebit earlier, how our experiences
were a little bit different inin that, you know, for a lot of
(23:12):
people, once they understandwhat is going on with them, the
mystery is solved, they have somuch more clarity, the need to
research just kind of goes bythe wayside.
And they don't they don't havethat.
And then there's like for me, myexperience was more um that
pattern itself.
And maybe because I had it forso many decades, it was so
deeply ingrained that that wasjust the default behavioral
(23:35):
pattern that I would go towhenever I felt discomfort or I
felt like I wanted some level ofcertainty or, you know, and so
even when I understood insomniaand I, you know, I just kept the
pattern but changed the topic.
And so for me, it was like, howdo I want to work with this
pattern of feeling the need tohop on Google every time I feel
(23:59):
some uncertainty or somethingdoesn't make sense, or you know,
something like that.
And you know, I had to thinkabout it more in a long-term
fashion.
Like, why would I want to startinitiating some boundaries or
start like looking at changingthis pattern for myself?
And it's like, what I reallywanted was to not need to know
the answer to everything.
(24:20):
Um, to live in the flow of lifeand trust that, to trust myself
and my ability to sleep, likestart honing that level of trust
that comes with moving in aworld that's always in flow.
You know, nothing is reallypermanent, everything flows,
everything's changing.
And not it just like, what wouldit be like to not have to
(24:41):
control this all the time?
So, like looking at like how didI want to be in relationship
with my life as a long-termthing being more beneficial to
me than the short-term assuranceor whatever little thing I could
find on the internet.
And now I'm talking more aboutwhen I'm researching in a way
that is from that intention offixing or whatever I am or
(25:02):
whatever my presentcircumstances aren't right or
aren't good enough.
Not so much the watermelon thatwe've been talking about.
No, that's for me, like that wasonly good.
Yeah.
For me, the personality ofresearching can very easily
swing into that direction.
So, you know, I would noticelike when I was getting out the
(25:25):
laptop to avoid feelingsomething, just like you said,
just starting to first thing wasjust noticing that.
And then, you know, sometimes Iwould notice and I would
research anyway, and that'sfine.
And sometimes I would decide,you know what, I'm gonna close
the laptop lid, and just thataction of closing the top of the
(25:45):
just that, like it's an action.
It feels nice to have an actionclosing the lid.
And then I would sort of replacethat with, you know, something
else.
Maybe it was a walk or cleaningthe kitchen, getting the
watermelon, whatever it is.
Just replacing that behaviorwith with something else was
that gentle nudge to move out ofthat pattern.
(26:08):
And and from that, you know, Ireally like we've talked about,
I wish I could actually get alittle bit more of that
researching in terms of, youknow, some like I've had a weird
eye thing coming up that I'veyou know, I've got a diagnosis.
And listen to this diagnosis.
It's called, I think it'sconvergence insufficiency.
And I'm thinking, and it's notthat uncommon, it's I'm not
(26:31):
worried about it at all, but whydo they have to throw words like
insufficiency into diagnosis?
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Like, I mean, is there like a worse word?
Anything with the word they goout of their way, they're they
go out of their way to createthese label.
SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
I mean, okay, way to make, you know, you start
worrying right off the bat.
And I'm not worried.
I just need to like figure outwhat kind of glasses I need to
get and all that.
It's no big deal.
But what was I talking about,Michelle?
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Pick it up, but you're so you're so now far
removed, or I'm just so far.
I'm so far removed pattern.
Yeah, and I know you don't wantto go back in any capacity other
than for the watermelon.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Like I only really am interested in researching
things that intrigue me orfascinate me or expand me or you
know, help me be a better coachor just whatever.
I'm not as interested in goingdown those fixing myself or my
life roads anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Oh, and what a relief.
Right.
Yeah.
It does.
It frees up a lot of brain spacefor sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Oh, it does.
And it sounds like there was atime where you were finding a
lot of safety in doing research.
And then it sounded like therewas this transition from finding
more safety and trust inyourself.
Yeah.
For sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
And I think that's really whatwe're all seeking when we're in
this research pattern is like afeeling of safety ultimately.
(27:56):
I just want to feel I just wantto feel safe and okay.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, and Ithink that leads into the idea
of when you're wanting to shiftit, if you're seeing this
happening, to not be rigid, justlike you were saying, to be
really flexible with it.
And I think that's important.
And and I when I work withclients who are maybe using
research as let's sayreassurance seeking in the
(28:18):
moment and were looking to shiftthat a little bit, yeah.
It really reminded me of whatyou were saying, where I might
encourage them to pause and bewith the discomfort and then
we'll work with that.
But you know what?
If they've done that for alittle bit and they still want
to research and Google, go forit.
Go for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's okay.
It's definitely not, it's not anall or nothing, doesn't exist.
(28:41):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I've seen thisapproached so many different
ways by my clients.
Like they sort of come up withwhat feels supportive or doable
to them.
You know, I have had people justbe like a total research detox,
but then I've had, you know,maybe they say something like, I
just stopped researching after acertain time of the day.
(29:03):
Or, you know, however they wantto introduce that.
Yeah, it's all okay.
You know, whatever you decide orhowever you want to do it,
there's really no right or wrongway.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
Yeah, exactly.
And be kind to yourself alongthe way because a lot of us have
been in that research loop for awhile.
And it can feel it can feel abit unsafe to step away from,
but ultimately it's really aboutfinding that trust and safety
within ourselves.
Yeah.
And that's a bigger piece forsure.
(29:35):
Love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:37):
Well, anything else that you can think of to add to
our research conversation today?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Oh, I don't know.
I think we covered everything Iwas thinking of, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, girl.
It is always so wonderful tohave you on the show.
Thank you.
Oh, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
I'm always so excited to come on and chat
anytime.
Yeah.
And please.
Please do tell everyone wherethey can find you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
You can find me at hopefulmind.com.
Awesome.
Go check out her site.
Get on Michelle's list.
Do all the things.
Thanks again, Michelle.
And thank you for having me.
It was so fun.
It was fun.
And to everyone out therelistening, thanks for being with
us today.
This is the Mind Body SleepPodcast.
(30:24):
We'll see you next time.
Thanks for being here today.
If you love what you heard ontoday's episode, don't forget to
hit the like button andsubscribe to the podcast.
And if you need more supportwith your sleep, join me in the
Mind Body Sleep Mentorship.
This three month one on oneprogram will transform your
relationship with sleep so youcan get back to living the life
(30:46):
that you love free from the fearof not sleeping.
Head on over to bethkendle.comfor more details.
I'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the Mind Body Sleep
Podcast.
My name is Beth.
(00:26):
I'm a sleep coach for peoplewith insomnia.
And I am super happy to bejoined once again by another
sleep coach who also justhappens to be one of my closest
friends.
Her name is Michelle Vay.
Welcome, Michelle.
Hi, and thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm happy to be back.
Well, I'm so glad you're back.
(00:46):
And for any of the listeners outthere who aren't familiar with
Michelle, this is, is it thethird time?
I think it's the third.
I think maybe fourth.
Might be fourth.
She's been on the pod.
And if you haven't listened toher other episodes, you
absolutely must because they'reamazing.
I'll link those up in the shownotes.
But Michelle and I are alwaystalking about all the podcasts
(01:09):
that we could do togetherbecause we talk pretty much
every day.
And I feel so fortunate to havethat friend in my life that you
can bounce the same idea off athousand different ways.
And you know, it just never getsold.
But we were talking about therole of researching when you
have insomnia.
(01:30):
And I think it's safe to saythat many, if not most of us who
run into the experience ofinsomnia are pretty good
researchers.
So, Michelle, if you wouldn'tmind kicking us off by telling
us first a bit about you and howthe role of researching played
out in your experience ofinsomnia.
(01:51):
But first, I have to say, Iwasn't sure if I was going to
bring this up, but I'm thinkingto your message that you left
right before we got on the Zoomcall.
And I think there's somethingthat you want the world to know
about watermelon.
Ah well, which part, Beth?
Maybe we could just have a quicklittle mini pod on everything
(02:14):
we've learned about watermelon.
Folks, we are having awatermelon summer.
And the way this all played outis I finally, in my 50s, got an
adult chef's knife.
Like a really, like I'm reallyfinely adulting when you get the
real knife.
And this led to watermelon is myall-time favorite food, but I
(02:37):
don't like chopping thewatermelon.
And so my boyfriend got me thisbeautiful knife, and we learned
all about knives and how to holdthem and what to look for, and
it was fascinating.
And he loves the process ofchopping watermelon, and this
has created a daily watermelonexperience in my summer.
So I was telling Michelle aboutthis, like this something called
(02:58):
black diamond watermelons.
And I know you don't have themin Canada, Michelle.
I'm so sorry for you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Wait, wait, we might.
I just haven't found one yet.
It might not be the season.
I think you have to wait tillthe end of season.
So I have not given up.
Okay, good.
I might actually have to quoteresearch that on the You might.
I we may have to research theblack.
I've already done a little bitof research, but I will have to
dive back in.
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
It's so apropos.
But yeah, so I was tellingMichelle it kind of opened up
with this black diamondwatermelon.
And she got to thinking, youknow, life, like, why wouldn't
we have watermelon all summer?
And the ripple effect of thiswatermelon story has like, you
know, my parents have now hadnonstop watermelon.
The minute they finish one, theygo out and get another one, and
they're only like three dollarsdown in Arizona, these giant
(03:44):
watermelons.
And so, Michelle, like tell thelisteners quick and like a
condensed version of what youwere telling me earlier today
because I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Well, first of all, I had watermelon right before
jumping on this podcast, ofcourse.
So that was just it's just partof my day now.
And I love that you have theadult knife.
It's a very adult experience tohave the good.
I have a good knife as well.
And it's it's I feel like suchan adult using it.
Yes.
And I find cutting, I'm thewatermelon cutter in our house,
(04:15):
and I find it very satisfying tocut up a watermelon.
Feels very productive.
And we were talking about how tofind a good one.
Yeah.
How to find a good one.
And this is something that I hadbeen researching.
And it goes exactly.
And you know what?
Proud, very proud of researchingand all the things.
(04:37):
And I found out something newyesterday about picking out a
good watermelon that I was veryexcited to tell you about
because I didn't know if youknew and you didn't.
So this is all verylife-changing.
But we were talking aboutlooking for a watermelon with a
certain weight or density.
Like it looks, if it lookssmall, but it's kind of heavy,
that's a good sign.
Yeah.
(04:57):
That yellow patch, you wantthat.
That's good.
Don't shy away from that.
That can mean it's a sweetwatermelon.
And then what I learnedyesterday was the ends, they
have a stem, and then there'sthis little, I don't know what
to call it.
I was calling it a nubbin.
Yeah.
The nubbin on the other side.
You want to look for thesmallest nubbin possible because
(05:20):
that means it was on the vinelonger.
It's sweeter.
So I'm excited to take all thisresearch and go out and see if I
can optimize and find absolutelythe best watermelon that I can
possibly find.
And I'm excited because I'mprobably gonna go out possibly
after this podcast to gowatermelon shopping.
I love it.
(05:41):
It's that important.
It's become that important in myhousehold to have yellow melon.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
And you know, I had no idea about the stem, like
looking for the stem that way.
And I just have to add, becausemy dad told me this when I was
down there last week, that withthe yellow, you have to look for
it to be buttery yellow.
Yes, yes, that is the key word.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
So glad you said that.
I'm glad you said that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Yes, you want to look for a buttery yellow.
It's important.
Yeah, yeah, because it meansthat it's been, it wasn't picked
too early.
It's been on the ground longenough to ripen.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah.
So it's like this, it's verycounterintuitive because if you
see a watermelon and it actuallylooks, let's say, very pretty,
just green, you might want toget it, but you really want to
look for that buttery yellowspot.
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Want to look for the uglywatermelon.
Exactly.
It looks a little uglier, butit's gonna taste better.
And then we could do, I mean,again, we could go on for a long
(06:38):
time.
We each have different cuttingsystems.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Just do a podcast on watermelons with every for how
much time we have devoted thissummer to talking about
watermelons, because we go intohow to cut the watermelon.
Yeah, there's different ways.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
And you know what?
I think there's a right way.
I'm just gonna say we could havea whole debate about that.
Huge debates, totally.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
So, I mean, I think this is a like the perfect segue
into this topic of researching.
So, okay, so back to you andtell us about you and what
researching looked like for you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Sure.
So just like Beth, I'm a sleepcoach as well.
And I struggled with reallysevere insomnia for about five
years before recovering andcoming into the coaching space.
And when we were first thinkingabout this topic, all the
memories of how much of aresearcher I really was started
to come back to me.
(07:35):
And before I really understoodinsomnia, and I was in these
years of really just confusionand fear and not understanding
what was going on.
Why couldn't I sleep?
Why did I have so many symptoms?
Why was I constantly anxious?
And I just felt like my brainand body was no longer my own.
(07:57):
I didn't understand anything.
So during those years, I wasreally constantly in a research
loop of some kind.
Now the topics would change.
I might stay on a topic for evenmore than a year at a time.
I was, I mean, I was an avidresearcher.
I think I could have been paidto be a researcher during this
(08:20):
time.
That's how in depth I could eventake courses.
And, you know, I would spend somuch time reading papers and
Googling and books.
I mean, you name it.
I was deep into research modefor years and years at a time.
I was trying to sort of turnover every rock and look under
(08:43):
it.
Could this be it?
Could this be how I was broken?
What about this?
What about, you know, everytopic from hormones to
dysautonomia to Parkinson's to,I mean, gosh, just I can't even
list them all.
Just all the things.
And yeah, it was very consuming.
Yeah.
And it also felt at the timeextremely necessary.
(09:07):
Yes.
Extremely felt like a life ordeath, you know, situation.
And so that, and that I neededto research my way out of that
life or death situation,essentially is what it felt
like.
So it felt like the mostessential research that, you
know, I could be doing.
And I would never have known atthe time that, you know, that,
well, one, that it wasn't goingto lead anywhere and that it was
(09:30):
actually part of what wasfueling this really hard
experience that I was having.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yes.
Everything that you're saying,so very similar to my own
experience.
And of course, I mean, I had,you know, I had insomnia for
decades.
So my researching evolved.
I mean, I remember as a younggirl checking out books at the
library and reading them andthen turning them back in and
(09:59):
checking them out again andreading them again.
And then, of course, you know,my researching skills evolved
over the eras with theintroduction of Google, which
honestly just 10xed everything.
SPEAKER_00 (10:15):
Oh my goodness.
I'm trying to, I have such now,I have a moment of such empathy
that your research period wasalso before Google.
So you had to really earn it.
You were really, you were a realresearcher.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
Yeah.
I mean, how deeply thisbehavioral pattern became
ingrained with my way of life.
And, you know, of course, withthe internet, you know, the
researching capacity just got,you know, so much bigger.
And I'm just, I'm reallyoverloading my brain with just a
tremendous amount ofinformation.
Yet I didn't understand how Icould know so much about sleep,
(10:50):
but still struggle with it morethan anyone I knew.
And it just would be thisvicious cycle of, okay, well,
I've got to learn more, I've gotto learn more, I've got to learn
more.
And I think, you know, youreally touched on it with that
word confusion is because Ididn't understand what was going
on.
And no one could really explainit to me.
You know, the places, thepeople, the things I was doing
(11:11):
to seek help weren't helping me.
And so I think, you know, theallure of researching for me was
that it made me feel like I wasdoing something.
You know, it was like, you know,and it really did on some level
become a bit of an addiction forme, but it it made me feel
(11:32):
productive.
It made me feel protective.
You know, I couldn't find helpanywhere else, but at least I
could keep going online and tryto find that peace that surely
had to be out there somewhere,you know?
And like I said, I think, youknow, looking for that
information or that peace in andof itself became an addiction.
(11:54):
But, you know, how many timeshave we heard people say to us,
you know, I kind of gave it onelast ditch effort and I went
online and that's when I foundyou.
So it isn't like it's all bad.
It's really not, because in someways, you know, people, this is
how they find us.
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
But plus we've just established that the watermelon
research was very necessary.
Look how fruitful.
Look how fruitful the well done.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
Well done.
So so yeah, I mean, this is sucha you know, just such a common
thing that our folks run upagainst.
But here's the thing, you know,let me ask you this, Michelle.
When would you say thatresearching stops becoming
helpful?
Yeah.
Or when does it become a bit ofa trap?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Well, I think the first thing to know is that what
we're describing is really likeI like how you use that word, it
becomes sort of addictive.
You're in it, it feels likeyou're, it's like, well, at
least I'm doing something,right?
And it feels very necessary.
And I think a lot of it reallywas a result of being in that
for both of us and for so manypeople, being in this constant
(13:06):
sort of fight or flight survivalresponse, where the story of
being in that survival responseis I gotta fix it now or else.
Right.
And if if that's not even aconscious story, that's the
feeling of being there is I I'vegot to fix it now or else, all
the time, all the time sort ofdriving that research loop.
(13:30):
Yep.
And so where it becomesunhelpful is really when it
becomes this very fear-drivenprocess, right?
Where it's an extension of thatfear.
And it's so tricky because inthe moment it can feel a little
better because, like what youjust said, it feels like you're
doing something.
And the part of us that feelslike we really want to fix and
(13:52):
control will feel better bydoing this.
And so it does feel a little bitbetter, but it never actually
gets us where we want to go.
And it just becomes this veryfear-driven process as opposed
to what you mentioned before,like a learning-driven process,
which is very, very different.
(14:13):
And so thinking about well,what's actually driving this?
Is this fear or is this a desireto learn or something that feels
inspiring and joyful orsomething that can be enjoyed in
some way?
It's really a differentunderlying driver.
What do you think?
100%.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
You know, and I think the watermelon research is
a perfect example of this.
Like, this has not been afear-driven research process, it
is sheer interest.
And how fascinating that there'sthese videos out there that show
you how to like cut a watermelonin the most efficient way.
So, yeah, I think it it goesback to intention, you know, as
(14:56):
it so often does.
And, you know, the ways that Isee researching becoming a bit
of a trap is when you're insomething.
So sometimes like people mightbe in the program and they know
it's helping them.
Yeah.
But then they're looking, youknow, just in case.
(15:18):
You know what I mean?
And so it's like this ishelping, but what if I'm missing
something out there?
I've got to look just in case,you know?
Very human, you know, veryhuman.
That's really common.
That's a big one.
It is, yeah.
And I think another way it canbecome less helpful, and this is
something you can definitelylook for, is when you leave a
(15:43):
span of research feeling moreanxious instead of less.
You know, that's that's sort ofa clue that, okay, this is
something you might want tovisit.
Or like back to my first point,you begin to start doubting what
is helping you or what isworking for you.
unknown (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
You know, like when research starts pulling you out
of that, then you know, okay,this is not as helpful.
This is becoming less helpfulfor me.
And of course, the biggest one Ithink is that when researching
starts pulling you out of trustwith your own body, right?
And we unconsciously startoutsourcing our own inner
(16:30):
knowingness to Google or justsome sort of authority out there
that we put more stock in thanour own natural wisdom that we
all hold inside.
And I think for me, that's whatI have to be very aware of, and
also just that back to theintention of am I looking for
(16:53):
something to fix me, you know,because the invisible message
back to ourselves with thatintention is that what we are or
something within us is broken.
Or is it strictly from thateducational standpoint?
I want to understand more aboutthis, I want to understand my
experience, I want to know moreabout watermelon.
(17:13):
I know, you know, that's such adifferent, that is such a
different driver than the fixingorientation.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Oh hugely.
Yes, that's completelydifferent.
Yeah.
But I think what you touched onis the most important piece of
this is that it can take us awayfrom our own inner knowing, our
own trust, our our ownintuition, and think that we
have to outsource that somewhereexternally.
We're gonna find the answer outthere if we just keep digging
(17:42):
and keep digging and trying tofix.
And it's like we're not lookingin the one place we could
actually find the most helpfulinformation within ourselves.
And even when we're in states ofanxiety and we're feeling
scared, we can still access ourown inner knowing.
It can feel a little bit harderwith that sort of noise around
(18:05):
it, but it's still there.
And that's always gonna lead ussomewhere so much more helpful
than any amount of all thisexternal research.
Or, or, and would you agree thatthat is actually the thing that
can point you in the directionof maybe research that could be
helpful versus feeling like youhave to do all the research
about all the things?
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Yeah.
Like I said, I think, you know,sometimes people research itself
isn't good or bad.
It is just like how we're usingit and getting to know ourselves
and how we're in relationshipwith this experience of insomnia
and in relationship with sleepand starting to notice like how
(18:45):
am I using this or what is theintention, or noticing like if
it's a fear-driven process, likejust like it's really learning
about yourself, I think, youknow.
But the research in and ofitself isn't bad or good.
It's just how we're using it.
And um sometimes it can behelpful.
I mean, I think about how much,you know, we were talking about
this before we hit record, howmuch information is out in the
(19:11):
world right now, and it's it'sso available and so at your
fingertips.
And I think that can be reallylike a really fun thing.
But then it's also being able torecognize, oh, I'm going into
overwhelm.
I'm putting too much informationinto my head, and now it's time
to take a break.
And, you know, so there's prosand cons, and it's just about,
you know, knowing yourself,knowing your intentions, and
(19:34):
also I think recognizing what doyou want for yourself on some
level.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Oh, absolutely.
Do you think there can also be apart sometimes for people where
going back into research ormaybe even staying in that
research loop can start tosometimes become about
avoidance?
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
You found that?
Yeah.
Oh, definitely.
I well, a couple of ways.
Like one of the ways I wasthinking about this is I think
it's human nature to want tolook for the easier path.
You know, it's so much easier tofind a supplement or, you know,
some external thing.
It's easier than changingyourself or doing, you know, or
(20:17):
doing the inner work of meetingthis fear, you know?
Um so it's that's some of it.
And then you were talking moreabout like what is the feeling?
If you didn't do the research,what would be the feeling that
would show up in the space ofthat, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I just want to really agree withwhat you were saying because if
it could be caused by, let'ssay, something else that we
could take a pill for, forexample, but then we wouldn't
have to then be with it or wewouldn't have to do any inner
work.
Yep.
Which is of course the hardstuff, right?
So that avoidance piece.
And then the same idea is if wedidn't do that in the moment,
(20:56):
what is the discomfort that'sactually coming up?
Yeah.
And so that can be that can besuch a useful exercise.
And I do that with so many of myclients, whether they might be
using researching as anavoidance or some sort of a
reassurance seeking.
Yeah.
I might ask them to pause thenext time they are drawn into,
(21:17):
you know, the day of Googling,so to speak, just pause first
and actually just notice whatkind of discomfort is present
for them.
Like what is actually coming upthat is driving this.
And so much of the time it'sfear.
It's some kind, it's, you know,it's it's really fear.
And if they're able to reallywork with the fear in the
moment, a lot of the times theneed for that research or that
(21:42):
afternoon of Googling, it justfalls away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It falls away completely.
So that's something that cancome up as well as even just
noticing what is going on.
And I think that's especiallytrue when someone is already
educated.
They really already understandwhat's going on.
So I'm not talking about, youknow, people at the very
(22:03):
beginning where they're justlearning what's happening.
It's a little bit later that yousee this pattern a little bit
more.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think when you start,that's such a good, that's such
a good point, talking about likehow we can like work with this
loop.
And, you know, something thatcomes to mind is I think the
first thing is just not turningit into a rule or a restriction,
(22:30):
like something you shouldn't orcan't do, or having it be like
all or nothing.
Because I think the minute weturn something into a rule or
restriction, it's likeautomatically creates this
fixation and you just want to doit more.
Yeah.
Which is why, you know, I don'tdiets, I just have never felt
like really work.
It just immediately creates thislike total focus on it.
(22:50):
Yes, exactly.
I must have the cake now.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's like, it's not make orbreak, you know, it's it's more
like, oh, I think what reallyhelped me start to because, and
we talked about this a littlebit earlier, how our experiences
were a little bit different inin that, you know, for a lot of
(23:12):
people, once they understandwhat is going on with them, the
mystery is solved, they have somuch more clarity, the need to
research just kind of goes bythe wayside.
And they don't they don't havethat.
And then there's like for me, myexperience was more um that
pattern itself.
And maybe because I had it forso many decades, it was so
deeply ingrained that that wasjust the default behavioral
(23:35):
pattern that I would go towhenever I felt discomfort or I
felt like I wanted some level ofcertainty or, you know, and so
even when I understood insomniaand I, you know, I just kept the
pattern but changed the topic.
And so for me, it was like, howdo I want to work with this
pattern of feeling the need tohop on Google every time I feel
(23:59):
some uncertainty or somethingdoesn't make sense, or you know,
something like that.
And you know, I had to thinkabout it more in a long-term
fashion.
Like, why would I want to startinitiating some boundaries or
start like looking at changingthis pattern for myself?
And it's like, what I reallywanted was to not need to know
the answer to everything.
(24:20):
Um, to live in the flow of lifeand trust that, to trust myself
and my ability to sleep, likestart honing that level of trust
that comes with moving in aworld that's always in flow.
You know, nothing is reallypermanent, everything flows,
everything's changing.
And not it just like, what wouldit be like to not have to
(24:41):
control this all the time?
So, like looking at like how didI want to be in relationship
with my life as a long-termthing being more beneficial to
me than the short-term assuranceor whatever little thing I could
find on the internet.
And now I'm talking more aboutwhen I'm researching in a way
that is from that intention offixing or whatever I am or
(25:02):
whatever my presentcircumstances aren't right or
aren't good enough.
Not so much the watermelon thatwe've been talking about.
No, that's for me, like that wasonly good.
Yeah.
For me, the personality ofresearching can very easily
swing into that direction.
So, you know, I would noticelike when I was getting out the
(25:25):
laptop to avoid feelingsomething, just like you said,
just starting to first thing wasjust noticing that.
And then, you know, sometimes Iwould notice and I would
research anyway, and that'sfine.
And sometimes I would decide,you know what, I'm gonna close
the laptop lid, and just thataction of closing the top of the
(25:45):
just that, like it's an action.
It feels nice to have an actionclosing the lid.
And then I would sort of replacethat with, you know, something
else.
Maybe it was a walk or cleaningthe kitchen, getting the
watermelon, whatever it is.
Just replacing that behaviorwith with something else was
that gentle nudge to move out ofthat pattern.
(26:08):
And and from that, you know, Ireally like we've talked about,
I wish I could actually get alittle bit more of that
researching in terms of, youknow, some like I've had a weird
eye thing coming up that I'veyou know, I've got a diagnosis.
And listen to this diagnosis.
It's called, I think it'sconvergence insufficiency.
And I'm thinking, and it's notthat uncommon, it's I'm not
(26:31):
worried about it at all, but whydo they have to throw words like
insufficiency into diagnosis?
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Like, I mean, is there like a worse word?
Anything with the word they goout of their way, they're they
go out of their way to createthese label.
SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
I mean, okay, way to make, you know, you start
worrying right off the bat.
And I'm not worried.
I just need to like figure outwhat kind of glasses I need to
get and all that.
It's no big deal.
But what was I talking about,Michelle?
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Pick it up, but you're so you're so now far
removed, or I'm just so far.
I'm so far removed pattern.
Yeah, and I know you don't wantto go back in any capacity other
than for the watermelon.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Like I only really am interested in researching
things that intrigue me orfascinate me or expand me or you
know, help me be a better coachor just whatever.
I'm not as interested in goingdown those fixing myself or my
life roads anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Oh, and what a relief.
Right.
Yeah.
It does.
It frees up a lot of brain spacefor sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Oh, it does.
And it sounds like there was atime where you were finding a
lot of safety in doing research.
And then it sounded like therewas this transition from finding
more safety and trust inyourself.
Yeah.
For sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
And I think that's really whatwe're all seeking when we're in
this research pattern is like afeeling of safety ultimately.
(27:56):
I just want to feel I just wantto feel safe and okay.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, and Ithink that leads into the idea
of when you're wanting to shiftit, if you're seeing this
happening, to not be rigid, justlike you were saying, to be
really flexible with it.
And I think that's important.
And and I when I work withclients who are maybe using
research as let's sayreassurance seeking in the
(28:18):
moment and were looking to shiftthat a little bit, yeah.
It really reminded me of whatyou were saying, where I might
encourage them to pause and bewith the discomfort and then
we'll work with that.
But you know what?
If they've done that for alittle bit and they still want
to research and Google, go forit.
Go for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's okay.
It's definitely not, it's not anall or nothing, doesn't exist.
(28:41):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I've seen thisapproached so many different
ways by my clients.
Like they sort of come up withwhat feels supportive or doable
to them.
You know, I have had people justbe like a total research detox,
but then I've had, you know,maybe they say something like, I
just stopped researching after acertain time of the day.
(29:03):
Or, you know, however they wantto introduce that.
Yeah, it's all okay.
You know, whatever you decide orhowever you want to do it,
there's really no right or wrongway.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
Yeah, exactly.
And be kind to yourself alongthe way because a lot of us have
been in that research loop for awhile.
And it can feel it can feel abit unsafe to step away from,
but ultimately it's really aboutfinding that trust and safety
within ourselves.
Yeah.
And that's a bigger piece forsure.
(29:35):
Love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:37):
Well, anything else that you can think of to add to
our research conversation today?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Oh, I don't know.
I think we covered everything Iwas thinking of, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, girl.
It is always so wonderful tohave you on the show.
Thank you.
Oh, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
I'm always so excited to come on and chat
anytime.
Yeah.
And please.
Please do tell everyone wherethey can find you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
You can find me at hopefulmind.com.
Awesome.
Go check out her site.
Get on Michelle's list.
Do all the things.
Thanks again, Michelle.
And thank you for having me.
It was so fun.
It was fun.
And to everyone out therelistening, thanks for being with
us today.
This is the Mind Body SleepPodcast.
(30:24):
We'll see you next time.
Thanks for being here today.
If you love what you heard ontoday's episode, don't forget to
hit the like button andsubscribe to the podcast.
And if you need more supportwith your sleep, join me in the
Mind Body Sleep Mentorship.
This three month one on oneprogram will transform your
relationship with sleep so youcan get back to living the life
(30:46):
that you love free from the fearof not sleeping.
Head on over to bethkendle.comfor more details.
I'll see you next time.
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