November 6, 2025 • 23 mins
In this foundational episode, Beth is joined by Mind. Body. Sleep.® co-coach Richard Wills to explore one of the most important — and least understood — aspects of insomnia recovery: hyperarousal.
Together, they unpack what hyperarousal really is, how it shows up in the body and mind, and why it’s the true obstacle standing between you and natural, effortless sleep.
You’ll learn the four types of hyperarousal and how each one can subtly (or not so subtly) keep the brain on high alert.
Beth and Richard share personal insights, relatable stories, and practical ways to help your brain stand down from perceived threats so sleep can re-emerge on its own.
If you’ve ever wondered why your body feels wired when you want to rest, this conversation will bring clarity, relief, and a renewed sense of hope.
Key topics:
- What hyperarousal is and how it develops
- The difference between appropriate arousal and overactivation
- Emotional, physical, mental, and silent hyperarousal explained
- How fear of wakefulness reinforces insomnia
- Practical ways to calm the system and teach the brain safety again
Connect with Beth:
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Work with Beth:
👉 Learn About the Mind. Body. Sleep. Mentorship
👉 Start the Free Insomnia Course Here
Show Notes HERE.
About Beth Kendall MA, FNTP:
For decades, Beth struggled with the relentless grip of insomnia. After finally understanding insomnia from a mind-body perspective, she changed her relationship with sleep, and completely recovered. Liberated from the constant worry of not sleeping, she’s on a mission to help others recover as well. Her transformative program Mind. Body. Sleep.® has been a beacon of light for hundreds of others seeking solace from sleepless nights.
© 2023 - 2025 Beth Kendall
DISCLAIMER: The podcasts available on this website have been produced for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute medical or professional advice. No person listening to and/or viewing any podcast from this website should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the content of a podcast without first seeking appropriate professional advice and/or counseling, nor shall the information be used as a substitute for professional advice and/or counseling. The Mind. Body. Sleep. Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability relating to any actions taken or not taken based on any or all contents of this site as there are no assurances as to any particular outcome.
Mind. Body. Sleep.® with Beth Kendall is your trusted source for holistic insomnia recovery, blending neuroplasticity, nervous system health, and mind-body coaching to help you finally sleep again.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the podcast.
I am so very delighted today tobe joined by someone who is very
(00:28):
important, a part of themind-body sleep world, and that
is Richard Wills.
Hi, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Hey Beth.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
I am doing great.
And for anyone out there notfamiliar with Richard, he is my
co-coach in the program.
And we alternate weeks in thecommunity and we answer
questions and do support calls.
And honestly, it has been such awonderful few years together
because I learn so much fromyou, Richard, as well as I do
(00:58):
from all the students.
But it has been just so veryeasy to work together.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
It's been great, Beth.
And I've really thoroughlyenjoyed working with you.
And uh again, I learned a tonfrom you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Absolutely.
So today we are talking moreabout hyper arousal.
We're going to talk about whatit is, how it tends to show up,
and how we can work with it.
And Richard, you have in thepast created such an excellent
breakdown of hyperarousal.
(01:31):
So I really wanted you to comeon and share that with the
audience so they could have abetter understanding of it as
well.
Because I think anytime we canshine a light on, you know, why
something is happening, then itall feels a little less scary
and threatening.
And Lord knows I surely wish Ihad even heard the word
(01:52):
hyperarousal before I turned 50.
So I'm very happy to be doingthe whole podcast around this
topic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Yeah, it's really an important topic, uh, Beth, and
I'm really eager to dive intoit.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's get going.
Why don't you, Richard, if youdon't mind, lay a bit of uh a
foundation for us and tell uswhat hyperarousal is and what
role it plays in the experienceof insomnia?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Yeah, so great question, Beth.
Well, hyperarousal happens whenour mind and body too are just
more activated than thesituation calls for.
So, you know, sometimes it'sreferred to as being extra
vigilant, but that's not reallyquite the same thing.
You can be alert without being,you know, wound up.
(02:45):
For example, let's say you'relooking up in the night sky
because they're supposed to beshooting stars.
You're looking for shootingstars, and you're very vigilant,
but you're not wound up.
You're not really aroused inthat sense.
So, yeah, so hyper-arousalreally happens when the body's
arousal system goes too far.
(03:05):
So let's say, you know, Godforbid your house catches on
fire, and what what would youdo?
Well, your heart would beracing, you'd be breathing
heavily, you'd be running and soforth.
Well, this is not hyper-arousal.
This is an appropriate level ofarousal for the situation.
Okay.
So you want to be activated inthat case.
Now, if you have the same rushof fear and pounding heart and
(03:29):
so forth on a first date or on apresentation, now that's more of
an overreaction because thesituation doesn't require that.
And that's what we'd callhyperarousal.
So your body is kind of actingas if there's a bear in the room
when there isn't.
That's what gets us into troublewith sleep.
(03:49):
So, you know, most of the timewe do associate hyperarousal
with anxiety, and and most ofthe time that's pretty accurate.
But it doesn't always come fromfear or or anxiety.
For example, if you won thelottery, your heart might race
too.
And so excitement can do it.
A child on Christmas, forexample, could be excited, and
(04:11):
that could be kind of morearousal than you need for the
situation, but it doesn't haveto be fear to be hyper-arousal.
So all of this is kind of builton this fight or flight
mechanism that we have.
And this is this wonderful thingthat protected us from danger
from way back, and of course,goes back before humans to other
(04:33):
animals also.
This is something that whenthere was a real threat, there's
a grizzly bear, for example, weneeded to have all these things
happen in order for us tosurvive.
We needed to have a racing heartand tense muscles and fast
breathing.
So that's appropriate arousal.
But when the same reaction kicksin without the real threat,
(04:57):
that's that's hyperarousal.
So fight or flight andhyperarousal are connected, but
they're not exactly the samething.
So just appropriate fight orflight, that really keeps us
alive if there's a real threat.
But hyperarousal, I mean, thatdoesn't really so much keep us
alive, it just keeps us awake.
That's the problem.
(05:17):
Yeah, and that's where insomniacomes in, Beth.
So yeah, I mean, it's helpful tolook at sleep as requiring kind
of two things.
On the one hand, there's thesleep drive, and that's
basically how long you've beenawake that day, or actually
maybe going back a day or twomore than that.
(05:37):
And so when you're awake longenough, you're gonna be sleepy
and you're gonna be able tosleep as long as you don't have
too much arousal.
Now, the arousal can be real ifthere's a real threat there, and
that will keep you awake.
But most people with insomnia,of course, don't have real
threats, and most people withinsomnia have plenty of sleep
(06:00):
drive.
So the thing that gets in theway of sleep is this
hyper-arousal.
So if we don't have the realpredators that we had, you know,
10,000 years ago, the predatorswe have are kind of internal.
These these worries we have, itmight be work or relationships
or taxes.
And that's what what keeps usawake.
(06:24):
Now, what usually happens on topof this, not only do we have the
anxiety about these differentthings going on in our life, but
then on top of that, we kind ofhave the fear kind of gets
doubled up because in most caseswe become afraid of being awake
itself.
So there's the fear of theproblem, you know, taxes,
(06:44):
relationships, and then fear ofthe wakefulness itself.
It's kind of a compound fear.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Yeah.
Yes.
You know, it's interesting.
As you were talking, it's reallythe first time I've separated
hyper and arousal, right?
Because arousal, I mean, it'sit's crazy.
How long have I been in thiswork?
And I it's like, oh, there'sarousal, but this is
hyper-arousal.
(07:12):
And you did such a good job ofexplaining, you know, in the
mentorship, we define it as aheightened state of alertness,
but you're going a bit deeper toexplain that it's actually an
exaggerated state of activation,you know, beyond what a
situation calls for.
And, you know, that's that'swhere the hyper part of arousal
(07:34):
can come in.
And of course, this is based onour, you know, past experiences
and programming around sleep.
You know, I think anyone dealingwith insomnia can relate to this
because when you're when you'regoing through it, you know, you
start to notice that your brain,like your brain seems to
interpret anything around sleepin a much bigger way than people
(07:55):
that don't have insomnia, right?
Right.
So there's like thissensitization there.
And of course, that's why we wego to such lengths to protect
our sleep so much, because thatthat's essentially what our
brain is telling us to do.
But, you know, just having theunderstanding that there is some
heightened sensitivity that, youknow, maybe other people that
(08:20):
don't have insomnia aren'tdealing with.
And that's and that's why thebrain can interpret things in a
threatening way, even when theymight not be dangerous at all.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yeah, for sure.
That that's you you said it sowell, Beth.
And I think people with insomniatend to have a background of
just being more anxious than theaverage person, also.
And so when when we have thistendency for anxiety, we we
basically have kind of asensitized nervous system from
all the stresses we'veexperienced in our lives, and we
(08:52):
just overreact to a lot ofthings.
So, not just for sleep, but forkind of life generally.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's definitely sometemperament traits that, you
know, we all share.
You know, at least a few of themin there.
And that's that's not uncommonat at all.
So, okay, I think that reallycovered, you know, what
hyperarousal is.
What are some of the ways thatit tends to present itself,
(09:22):
Richard?
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Yeah, well, this is really interesting part of it,
uh, Beth, because we can justkind of talk about hyperarousal
generally, but when we look atit, we can really kind of divide
it up into four different types.
And they usually aren'tpresenting, you know, purely
like this.
Usually there's a mixture.
But the first kind I callemotional hyperarousal.
(09:43):
And that's just kind of the morepure anxiety or fear aspect of
it.
And then on top of that, therecan be physical hyperarousal.
So that's more of the bodilyreaction, the physiological
reaction, the racing heart, thetight muscles, the heavy
breathing.
So that's the physical part ofit.
And then there's the mental partof it, which isn't exactly the
(10:05):
same as the emotional part.
The mental part of it is whenour thoughts are going round and
round, we're overthinking.
So we can have emotionalhyperarousal with the anxiety,
the physical hyperarousal withthe racing heart, for example,
the mental hyper-arousal withthe racing thoughts.
But then sometimes, you know,I've had a lot of clients that
(10:26):
I've coached say, Well, youknow, I just woke up and I'm I'm
not feeling scared.
I'm not, my heart isn't racing,my mind isn't racing, but I'm
just awake.
And what I call that is silenthyper-arousal.
So there's no obvious fear orracing heart and so forth, but
(10:46):
you're just awake.
And I think what happens thereis that you have enough of this
kind of activation to keep youawake, but not enough to keep
you scared.
So the way I think of it is it'salways helpful to think back
what our primitive ancestors hadto deal with.
(11:07):
So if there was a grizzly bearthat's sleeping in the cave,
there's a grizzly bear 10,000years ago, and it's roaring
right at the cave, and obviouslyyou've got to be awake.
You're probably gonna have allthree kinds the emotional,
physical, and mental.
But let's say on another night,lion's roars can be really loud.
I actually went camping once inFlorida, and there was this
(11:28):
wildlife preserve like a mileaway, and I could hear the lions
roaring at night.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And hopefully they they werewell caged.
But anyway, so a primitiveperson hearing a lion's roar a
mile away, well, you know, youjust, okay, well, I gotta be
awake for this, but I'm notreally scared.
Okay.
And I'll listen to make sure itdoesn't get closer.
So I think that's kind of thebasis for silent hyperarousal,
(11:52):
enough to keep us awake.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, a lot ofpeople with insomnia kind of
have this quiet, low-gradealertness that keeps the brain
from just totally letting go andrelaxing and falling back to
sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So just to break this down, youmentioned that there's the the
four possible expressions ofhyperarousal: the emotional,
physical, mental, and silent.
And these can shape shift forall of us, you know, especially
throughout the course of therecovery process.
We've seen this happen, youknow, where it can kind of shift
(12:31):
into something different thanmaybe you've ever experienced.
But I especially love, you know,how you named it silent
hyperarousal, because this wasdefinitely how it expressed for
me.
And there was someone on thegroup call yesterday, and this
is how it expressed, you know,expresses for him as well.
And it is such a bizarre feelingto have this happening, but not
(12:56):
have like any physical symptomsto go along with it.
And I think for me, this is whywhen someone suggested that I
had sleep anxiety, I just did, Ijust wrote that off right away
because I it didn't, myexperience of it didn't match
what I thought anxiety was, youknow, and it almost felt a
(13:17):
little bit offensive to me.
But it really, it was, it wasanxiety related.
It was just that hyperarousalwas happening so beneath, like
it was an unconscious,conditioned response that was
happening, you know, it justwasn't expressing the same.
And then oddly enough, on my wayout of insomnia is when I
started having a more physicalexpression of hyperarousal.
(13:38):
And, you know, that's kind ofanother whole podcast.
But but I love this.
And I'm so curious, like how,you know, so you were talking,
and I would say for me, it wasit was emotional, mental, and
silent hyperarousal mostly.
But I'm curious how it showed upfor you, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it really showed up allfour ways for me.
SPEAKER_01 (13:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
I think before I started learning about insomnia
and learning, you know, wasstarted to recover, kind of when
I was in the thick of myinsomnia, I think I had all
kinds.
And I'd wake up, I'd typicallyfall asleep fine, but then I'd
wake up, say, at three o'clockin the morning.
And yeah, I'd typically feelanxious.
And uh that would be the kind ofthe first thing I'd I'd feel.
(14:22):
And then my thoughts would begoing round and round, why am I
awake?
What's wrong?
So forth.
And the physical would then kickin.
And I don't think it wasnecessarily racing heart, but
yeah, tight muscles, achymuscles.
I experienced that a lot.
Yeah.
And then, you know, as as thingsgot better, as I moved forward
in my recovery, a lot of themore kind of dramatic aspects of
(14:47):
hyperarousal, emotional,physical, and mental, started
calming down.
And but I would still have thesiloed hyperarousal.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I think that's kind of themildest form of it.
And I think it's often the lastto go.
Just kind of a lack of a lack ofsleepiness.
You know, if you only sleptthree hours and you wake up,
you'd expect yourself to bestill kind of groggy and sleepy.
(15:10):
And when you're not, I thinkthat's often a clue that you're
dealing with silenthyperarousal.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
And of course, you know, we workwith people with all of these
expressions in the mentorship.
And, you know, it's funnybecause it's not uncommon for
people, say, with physicalexpressions of hyperarousal, to
wish it was silent hyperarousal.
And then for the people thathave the silent hyperarousal,
(15:38):
sometimes they wish it wasphysical so that that there was
something tangible to work with,you know, like there's nothing
to actually work with.
It's just sort of like justhappening, and you're like, what
is the deal?
It's so bizarre.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
But Beth, you know, I I found that um it's really uh
helpful for a lot of the clientsto break it down into these four
kinds of hyperarousal.
And when they hear about silenthyperarousal, they're kind of
relieved that yeah, okay, thisis understandable.
It's the same process, notweird.
And it's actually kind of a goodsign that things are probably
(16:11):
getting better.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
And, you know, it no matter whatthe type is, like you kind of
mentioned this already, theapproach to both is really the
same, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, what can we do?
What can we do, Richard?
How do we start working withhyperarousal?
So it doesn't feel the need tokeep showing up.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Right.
Okay.
Well, that's the big question.
That's really basically what,you know, uh the whole
curriculum here at Mind BodySleep is about.
Yeah.
But I think, you know, the firststep is realizing that there are
two kinds of threats.
There are the real threats likethe grizzly bears, and that
there are the perceived threatslike the fact of being awake or
uh, you know, worrying aboutyour your taxes or job, that's
(16:57):
not something that's appropriateto be dealing with in the middle
of the night, even though itmight be something to deal with
in your in your life.
So realizing that you're notdealing with real threats is
helpful.
And I think it's definitely thefirst step because a lot of
people think that there reallyis a threat just by the fact of
(17:17):
being awake.
They think that it's going to bea threat to their health.
And there have been studies,there was a big study, the
Lovato study, with uh what, 37million people.
Yeah.
There was no difference in thedeath rate between how long
people live between goodsleepers and people with
insomnia.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
So that just really, really was very helpful for me
to realize.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
I know.
I love that study for the sheersample size alone.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Like it's just so gigantic that, of course, I
mean, it's still you still wantto put your insomnia behind you,
but in terms of health threats,it's not what we what we used to
think.
Yeah.
So, you know, one of the thingsthough is that the fear center
in the brain that createshyper-arousal really evolved way
(18:04):
before we had logic or language.
So sometimes logic and languagecan be limited.
And if we just have them alone,I know for me that wasn't
enough.
I think over and above that, weneed to do things to show our
brain that we're not really in adangerous situation.
It's not a real threat.
(18:25):
And we can we can show it byacting in ways that tell our
brain that there's no danger.
So, for example, if there were areal grizzly bear, you would be
up and dealing with a threat.
You'd be running away, trying tofight it and so forth, and the
brain would pick up on this.
But let's say it's the middle ofthe night and you wake up with a
(18:48):
racing heart and so forth.
Well, what if you just kind of,all right, you just open a book
and start reading?
Or, you know, once you kind ofacknowledge the feeling, or if
you go down and watch TV.
I used to get up and watchSteinfeld, and that's how I
recovered, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:02):
And so doing something enjoyable tells the
brain this isn't really athreat.
If there really were a grizzlybear, you wouldn't be watching
TV.
You'd be right, right.
You wouldn't be doing somethingenjoyable or relaxing.
So I think that's where kind ofyour behavior uh kicks in.
And I'm not saying you have toget up, you you don't.
(19:23):
You could just kind of rest inbed.
If you were a grizzly berret,you wouldn't just be relaxing in
bed.
So there's nothing you we don'tdictate what you have to do.
But if you do something thatbefriends wakefulness rather
than kind of fighting it andstruggling with it, yeah, really
sends a message.
The message, this isn't a realthreat.
(19:45):
And you know, the brain kind oflearns to stand down and and
over time when you do this overand over, sleep starts to come
naturally again.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah, so well said.
I love that.
And you know, I think it thisreally speaks to the three-step
process that we use in thementorship, which is just first,
you know, understanding theproblem, which alone can help so
much.
Because, like I said, what Iwould have given just to hear
someone say the wordhyper-arousal, you know, during
(20:15):
during all those decades, youknow, and then we learn how to
respond in new ways so that wecan update, you know, the
brain's perception of threat.
And, you know, the great thing,and this speaks to befriending
wakefulness and, you know, notfighting the grizzly bear, but
(20:37):
the great thing is that whilewe're while we're watching and
listening to the brain, thebrain is actually watching and
listening to us, right?
So, you know, it's taking cuesfrom us and how we act and
behave and respond to determinethe level of threat in any given
situation.
So, you know, it's it's veryteachable and changeable.
(20:59):
And and then the lastly is just,you know, living your life,
right?
Because nothing is more powerfulthan that in terms of
absolutely, yeah.
You know, just getting back toeffortless sleep again, where
sleep is just sleep and in, youknow, there's not much more to
it than that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
So if we if we live our life uh just kind of during
the day and we don't kind of putour life on hold.
Oh, I I won't have lunch with myfriend today because I'm too
tired.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Sometimes there's some rationale to that, but that
again sends the message thatthis your sleep is is a real
threat that you have to dealwith before you can deal with
the rest of life and enjoyyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Right.
And it's actually the opposite.
It's like getting back into lifeis what diffuses the threat.
You know, it really is.
And that's that's what becomesthe teacher, the cue back to the
brain.
So yeah, yeah.
All right.
Well, do you have any other lastthoughts to share on the subject
(22:00):
of hyper arousal?
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
No, I think we've kind of summed it up, uh, Beth.
And uh, you know, I'm certainlyeager for uh any of the
listeners, if they havequestions, over and above what
we talked about, but uh, I thinkthis sums it up.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Yeah, I think this was a really, you know, good
foundational episode for peoplethat want to understand hyper
arousal.
And Richard, I I can't thank youenough, you know, for for coming
back and talking to us.
I know that your your days arebusy these days.
And if any of you out there wantto hang out with Richard and I
(22:34):
in the mentorship, come join us.
You know, between the two of us,we have been through over 80
years of insomnia.
So, you know, we we deeplyunderstand the struggle of it,
and we are here to help you getbeyond it.
So until next time, this is theMind Body Sleep Podcast.
(22:55):
Bye for now and bye, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Okay, bye, Beth.
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
See you later.
Thanks for being here today.
If you love what you heard ontoday's episode, don't forget to
hit the like button andsubscribe to the podcast.
And if you need more supportwith your sleep, join me in the
Mind Body Sleep Mentorship.
This three month one on oneprogram will transform your
relationship with sleep so youcan get back to living the life
(23:20):
that you love free from the fearof not sleeping.
Head on over to bethkendle.comfor more details.
I'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome to Mind Body Sleep, the podcast for
anyone out there who wants tounderstand and recover from
insomnia using a holisticperspective.
I'm Beth Kendall, your host.
Let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the podcast.
I am so very delighted today tobe joined by someone who is very
(00:28):
important, a part of themind-body sleep world, and that
is Richard Wills.
Hi, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Hey Beth.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
I am doing great.
And for anyone out there notfamiliar with Richard, he is my
co-coach in the program.
And we alternate weeks in thecommunity and we answer
questions and do support calls.
And honestly, it has been such awonderful few years together
because I learn so much fromyou, Richard, as well as I do
(00:58):
from all the students.
But it has been just so veryeasy to work together.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
It's been great, Beth.
And I've really thoroughlyenjoyed working with you.
And uh again, I learned a tonfrom you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Absolutely.
So today we are talking moreabout hyper arousal.
We're going to talk about whatit is, how it tends to show up,
and how we can work with it.
And Richard, you have in thepast created such an excellent
breakdown of hyperarousal.
(01:31):
So I really wanted you to comeon and share that with the
audience so they could have abetter understanding of it as
well.
Because I think anytime we canshine a light on, you know, why
something is happening, then itall feels a little less scary
and threatening.
And Lord knows I surely wish Ihad even heard the word
(01:52):
hyperarousal before I turned 50.
So I'm very happy to be doingthe whole podcast around this
topic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Yeah, it's really an important topic, uh, Beth, and
I'm really eager to dive intoit.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's get going.
Why don't you, Richard, if youdon't mind, lay a bit of uh a
foundation for us and tell uswhat hyperarousal is and what
role it plays in the experienceof insomnia?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Yeah, so great question, Beth.
Well, hyperarousal happens whenour mind and body too are just
more activated than thesituation calls for.
So, you know, sometimes it'sreferred to as being extra
vigilant, but that's not reallyquite the same thing.
You can be alert without being,you know, wound up.
(02:45):
For example, let's say you'relooking up in the night sky
because they're supposed to beshooting stars.
You're looking for shootingstars, and you're very vigilant,
but you're not wound up.
You're not really aroused inthat sense.
So, yeah, so hyper-arousalreally happens when the body's
arousal system goes too far.
(03:05):
So let's say, you know, Godforbid your house catches on
fire, and what what would youdo?
Well, your heart would beracing, you'd be breathing
heavily, you'd be running and soforth.
Well, this is not hyper-arousal.
This is an appropriate level ofarousal for the situation.
Okay.
So you want to be activated inthat case.
Now, if you have the same rushof fear and pounding heart and
(03:29):
so forth on a first date or on apresentation, now that's more of
an overreaction because thesituation doesn't require that.
And that's what we'd callhyperarousal.
So your body is kind of actingas if there's a bear in the room
when there isn't.
That's what gets us into troublewith sleep.
(03:49):
So, you know, most of the timewe do associate hyperarousal
with anxiety, and and most ofthe time that's pretty accurate.
But it doesn't always come fromfear or or anxiety.
For example, if you won thelottery, your heart might race
too.
And so excitement can do it.
A child on Christmas, forexample, could be excited, and
(04:11):
that could be kind of morearousal than you need for the
situation, but it doesn't haveto be fear to be hyper-arousal.
So all of this is kind of builton this fight or flight
mechanism that we have.
And this is this wonderful thingthat protected us from danger
from way back, and of course,goes back before humans to other
(04:33):
animals also.
This is something that whenthere was a real threat, there's
a grizzly bear, for example, weneeded to have all these things
happen in order for us tosurvive.
We needed to have a racing heartand tense muscles and fast
breathing.
So that's appropriate arousal.
But when the same reaction kicksin without the real threat,
(04:57):
that's that's hyperarousal.
So fight or flight andhyperarousal are connected, but
they're not exactly the samething.
So just appropriate fight orflight, that really keeps us
alive if there's a real threat.
But hyperarousal, I mean, thatdoesn't really so much keep us
alive, it just keeps us awake.
That's the problem.
(05:17):
Yeah, and that's where insomniacomes in, Beth.
So yeah, I mean, it's helpful tolook at sleep as requiring kind
of two things.
On the one hand, there's thesleep drive, and that's
basically how long you've beenawake that day, or actually
maybe going back a day or twomore than that.
(05:37):
And so when you're awake longenough, you're gonna be sleepy
and you're gonna be able tosleep as long as you don't have
too much arousal.
Now, the arousal can be real ifthere's a real threat there, and
that will keep you awake.
But most people with insomnia,of course, don't have real
threats, and most people withinsomnia have plenty of sleep
(06:00):
drive.
So the thing that gets in theway of sleep is this
hyper-arousal.
So if we don't have the realpredators that we had, you know,
10,000 years ago, the predatorswe have are kind of internal.
These these worries we have, itmight be work or relationships
or taxes.
And that's what what keeps usawake.
(06:24):
Now, what usually happens on topof this, not only do we have the
anxiety about these differentthings going on in our life, but
then on top of that, we kind ofhave the fear kind of gets
doubled up because in most caseswe become afraid of being awake
itself.
So there's the fear of theproblem, you know, taxes,
(06:44):
relationships, and then fear ofthe wakefulness itself.
It's kind of a compound fear.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Yeah.
Yes.
You know, it's interesting.
As you were talking, it's reallythe first time I've separated
hyper and arousal, right?
Because arousal, I mean, it'sit's crazy.
How long have I been in thiswork?
And I it's like, oh, there'sarousal, but this is
hyper-arousal.
(07:12):
And you did such a good job ofexplaining, you know, in the
mentorship, we define it as aheightened state of alertness,
but you're going a bit deeper toexplain that it's actually an
exaggerated state of activation,you know, beyond what a
situation calls for.
And, you know, that's that'swhere the hyper part of arousal
(07:34):
can come in.
And of course, this is based onour, you know, past experiences
and programming around sleep.
You know, I think anyone dealingwith insomnia can relate to this
because when you're when you'regoing through it, you know, you
start to notice that your brain,like your brain seems to
interpret anything around sleepin a much bigger way than people
(07:55):
that don't have insomnia, right?
Right.
So there's like thissensitization there.
And of course, that's why we wego to such lengths to protect
our sleep so much, because thatthat's essentially what our
brain is telling us to do.
But, you know, just having theunderstanding that there is some
heightened sensitivity that, youknow, maybe other people that
(08:20):
don't have insomnia aren'tdealing with.
And that's and that's why thebrain can interpret things in a
threatening way, even when theymight not be dangerous at all.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Yeah, for sure.
That that's you you said it sowell, Beth.
And I think people with insomniatend to have a background of
just being more anxious than theaverage person, also.
And so when when we have thistendency for anxiety, we we
basically have kind of asensitized nervous system from
all the stresses we'veexperienced in our lives, and we
(08:52):
just overreact to a lot ofthings.
So, not just for sleep, but forkind of life generally.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's definitely sometemperament traits that, you
know, we all share.
You know, at least a few of themin there.
And that's that's not uncommonat at all.
So, okay, I think that reallycovered, you know, what
hyperarousal is.
What are some of the ways thatit tends to present itself,
(09:22):
Richard?
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Yeah, well, this is really interesting part of it,
uh, Beth, because we can justkind of talk about hyperarousal
generally, but when we look atit, we can really kind of divide
it up into four different types.
And they usually aren'tpresenting, you know, purely
like this.
Usually there's a mixture.
But the first kind I callemotional hyperarousal.
(09:43):
And that's just kind of the morepure anxiety or fear aspect of
it.
And then on top of that, therecan be physical hyperarousal.
So that's more of the bodilyreaction, the physiological
reaction, the racing heart, thetight muscles, the heavy
breathing.
So that's the physical part ofit.
And then there's the mental partof it, which isn't exactly the
(10:05):
same as the emotional part.
The mental part of it is whenour thoughts are going round and
round, we're overthinking.
So we can have emotionalhyperarousal with the anxiety,
the physical hyperarousal withthe racing heart, for example,
the mental hyper-arousal withthe racing thoughts.
But then sometimes, you know,I've had a lot of clients that
(10:26):
I've coached say, Well, youknow, I just woke up and I'm I'm
not feeling scared.
I'm not, my heart isn't racing,my mind isn't racing, but I'm
just awake.
And what I call that is silenthyper-arousal.
So there's no obvious fear orracing heart and so forth, but
(10:46):
you're just awake.
And I think what happens thereis that you have enough of this
kind of activation to keep youawake, but not enough to keep
you scared.
So the way I think of it is it'salways helpful to think back
what our primitive ancestors hadto deal with.
(11:07):
So if there was a grizzly bearthat's sleeping in the cave,
there's a grizzly bear 10,000years ago, and it's roaring
right at the cave, and obviouslyyou've got to be awake.
You're probably gonna have allthree kinds the emotional,
physical, and mental.
But let's say on another night,lion's roars can be really loud.
I actually went camping once inFlorida, and there was this
(11:28):
wildlife preserve like a mileaway, and I could hear the lions
roaring at night.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And hopefully they they werewell caged.
But anyway, so a primitiveperson hearing a lion's roar a
mile away, well, you know, youjust, okay, well, I gotta be
awake for this, but I'm notreally scared.
Okay.
And I'll listen to make sure itdoesn't get closer.
So I think that's kind of thebasis for silent hyperarousal,
(11:52):
enough to keep us awake.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, a lot ofpeople with insomnia kind of
have this quiet, low-gradealertness that keeps the brain
from just totally letting go andrelaxing and falling back to
sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So just to break this down, youmentioned that there's the the
four possible expressions ofhyperarousal: the emotional,
physical, mental, and silent.
And these can shape shift forall of us, you know, especially
throughout the course of therecovery process.
We've seen this happen, youknow, where it can kind of shift
(12:31):
into something different thanmaybe you've ever experienced.
But I especially love, you know,how you named it silent
hyperarousal, because this wasdefinitely how it expressed for
me.
And there was someone on thegroup call yesterday, and this
is how it expressed, you know,expresses for him as well.
And it is such a bizarre feelingto have this happening, but not
(12:56):
have like any physical symptomsto go along with it.
And I think for me, this is whywhen someone suggested that I
had sleep anxiety, I just did, Ijust wrote that off right away
because I it didn't, myexperience of it didn't match
what I thought anxiety was, youknow, and it almost felt a
(13:17):
little bit offensive to me.
But it really, it was, it wasanxiety related.
It was just that hyperarousalwas happening so beneath, like
it was an unconscious,conditioned response that was
happening, you know, it justwasn't expressing the same.
And then oddly enough, on my wayout of insomnia is when I
started having a more physicalexpression of hyperarousal.
(13:38):
And, you know, that's kind ofanother whole podcast.
But but I love this.
And I'm so curious, like how,you know, so you were talking,
and I would say for me, it wasit was emotional, mental, and
silent hyperarousal mostly.
But I'm curious how it showed upfor you, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it really showed up allfour ways for me.
SPEAKER_01 (13:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
I think before I started learning about insomnia
and learning, you know, wasstarted to recover, kind of when
I was in the thick of myinsomnia, I think I had all
kinds.
And I'd wake up, I'd typicallyfall asleep fine, but then I'd
wake up, say, at three o'clockin the morning.
And yeah, I'd typically feelanxious.
And uh that would be the kind ofthe first thing I'd I'd feel.
(14:22):
And then my thoughts would begoing round and round, why am I
awake?
What's wrong?
So forth.
And the physical would then kickin.
And I don't think it wasnecessarily racing heart, but
yeah, tight muscles, achymuscles.
I experienced that a lot.
Yeah.
And then, you know, as as thingsgot better, as I moved forward
in my recovery, a lot of themore kind of dramatic aspects of
(14:47):
hyperarousal, emotional,physical, and mental, started
calming down.
And but I would still have thesiloed hyperarousal.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I think that's kind of themildest form of it.
And I think it's often the lastto go.
Just kind of a lack of a lack ofsleepiness.
You know, if you only sleptthree hours and you wake up,
you'd expect yourself to bestill kind of groggy and sleepy.
(15:10):
And when you're not, I thinkthat's often a clue that you're
dealing with silenthyperarousal.
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
And of course, you know, we workwith people with all of these
expressions in the mentorship.
And, you know, it's funnybecause it's not uncommon for
people, say, with physicalexpressions of hyperarousal, to
wish it was silent hyperarousal.
And then for the people thathave the silent hyperarousal,
(15:38):
sometimes they wish it wasphysical so that that there was
something tangible to work with,you know, like there's nothing
to actually work with.
It's just sort of like justhappening, and you're like, what
is the deal?
It's so bizarre.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
But Beth, you know, I I found that um it's really uh
helpful for a lot of the clientsto break it down into these four
kinds of hyperarousal.
And when they hear about silenthyperarousal, they're kind of
relieved that yeah, okay, thisis understandable.
It's the same process, notweird.
And it's actually kind of a goodsign that things are probably
(16:11):
getting better.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
And, you know, it no matter whatthe type is, like you kind of
mentioned this already, theapproach to both is really the
same, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, what can we do?
What can we do, Richard?
How do we start working withhyperarousal?
So it doesn't feel the need tokeep showing up.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Right.
Okay.
Well, that's the big question.
That's really basically what,you know, uh the whole
curriculum here at Mind BodySleep is about.
Yeah.
But I think, you know, the firststep is realizing that there are
two kinds of threats.
There are the real threats likethe grizzly bears, and that
there are the perceived threatslike the fact of being awake or
uh, you know, worrying aboutyour your taxes or job, that's
(16:57):
not something that's appropriateto be dealing with in the middle
of the night, even though itmight be something to deal with
in your in your life.
So realizing that you're notdealing with real threats is
helpful.
And I think it's definitely thefirst step because a lot of
people think that there reallyis a threat just by the fact of
(17:17):
being awake.
They think that it's going to bea threat to their health.
And there have been studies,there was a big study, the
Lovato study, with uh what, 37million people.
Yeah.
There was no difference in thedeath rate between how long
people live between goodsleepers and people with
insomnia.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
So that just really, really was very helpful for me
to realize.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
I know.
I love that study for the sheersample size alone.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Like it's just so gigantic that, of course, I
mean, it's still you still wantto put your insomnia behind you,
but in terms of health threats,it's not what we what we used to
think.
Yeah.
So, you know, one of the thingsthough is that the fear center
in the brain that createshyper-arousal really evolved way
(18:04):
before we had logic or language.
So sometimes logic and languagecan be limited.
And if we just have them alone,I know for me that wasn't
enough.
I think over and above that, weneed to do things to show our
brain that we're not really in adangerous situation.
It's not a real threat.
(18:25):
And we can we can show it byacting in ways that tell our
brain that there's no danger.
So, for example, if there were areal grizzly bear, you would be
up and dealing with a threat.
You'd be running away, trying tofight it and so forth, and the
brain would pick up on this.
But let's say it's the middle ofthe night and you wake up with a
(18:48):
racing heart and so forth.
Well, what if you just kind of,all right, you just open a book
and start reading?
Or, you know, once you kind ofacknowledge the feeling, or if
you go down and watch TV.
I used to get up and watchSteinfeld, and that's how I
recovered, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:02):
And so doing something enjoyable tells the
brain this isn't really athreat.
If there really were a grizzlybear, you wouldn't be watching
TV.
You'd be right, right.
You wouldn't be doing somethingenjoyable or relaxing.
So I think that's where kind ofyour behavior uh kicks in.
And I'm not saying you have toget up, you you don't.
(19:23):
You could just kind of rest inbed.
If you were a grizzly berret,you wouldn't just be relaxing in
bed.
So there's nothing you we don'tdictate what you have to do.
But if you do something thatbefriends wakefulness rather
than kind of fighting it andstruggling with it, yeah, really
sends a message.
The message, this isn't a realthreat.
(19:45):
And you know, the brain kind oflearns to stand down and and
over time when you do this overand over, sleep starts to come
naturally again.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah, so well said.
I love that.
And you know, I think it thisreally speaks to the three-step
process that we use in thementorship, which is just first,
you know, understanding theproblem, which alone can help so
much.
Because, like I said, what Iwould have given just to hear
someone say the wordhyper-arousal, you know, during
(20:15):
during all those decades, youknow, and then we learn how to
respond in new ways so that wecan update, you know, the
brain's perception of threat.
And, you know, the great thing,and this speaks to befriending
wakefulness and, you know, notfighting the grizzly bear, but
(20:37):
the great thing is that whilewe're while we're watching and
listening to the brain, thebrain is actually watching and
listening to us, right?
So, you know, it's taking cuesfrom us and how we act and
behave and respond to determinethe level of threat in any given
situation.
So, you know, it's it's veryteachable and changeable.
(20:59):
And and then the lastly is just,you know, living your life,
right?
Because nothing is more powerfulthan that in terms of
absolutely, yeah.
You know, just getting back toeffortless sleep again, where
sleep is just sleep and in, youknow, there's not much more to
it than that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
So if we if we live our life uh just kind of during
the day and we don't kind of putour life on hold.
Oh, I I won't have lunch with myfriend today because I'm too
tired.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Sometimes there's some rationale to that, but that
again sends the message thatthis your sleep is is a real
threat that you have to dealwith before you can deal with
the rest of life and enjoyyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Right.
And it's actually the opposite.
It's like getting back into lifeis what diffuses the threat.
You know, it really is.
And that's that's what becomesthe teacher, the cue back to the
brain.
So yeah, yeah.
All right.
Well, do you have any other lastthoughts to share on the subject
(22:00):
of hyper arousal?
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
No, I think we've kind of summed it up, uh, Beth.
And uh, you know, I'm certainlyeager for uh any of the
listeners, if they havequestions, over and above what
we talked about, but uh, I thinkthis sums it up.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Yeah, I think this was a really, you know, good
foundational episode for peoplethat want to understand hyper
arousal.
And Richard, I I can't thank youenough, you know, for for coming
back and talking to us.
I know that your your days arebusy these days.
And if any of you out there wantto hang out with Richard and I
(22:34):
in the mentorship, come join us.
You know, between the two of us,we have been through over 80
years of insomnia.
So, you know, we we deeplyunderstand the struggle of it,
and we are here to help you getbeyond it.
So until next time, this is theMind Body Sleep Podcast.
(22:55):
Bye for now and bye, Richard.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Okay, bye, Beth.
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
See you later.
Thanks for being here today.
If you love what you heard ontoday's episode, don't forget to
hit the like button andsubscribe to the podcast.
And if you need more supportwith your sleep, join me in the
Mind Body Sleep Mentorship.
This three month one on oneprogram will transform your
relationship with sleep so youcan get back to living the life
(23:20):
that you love free from the fearof not sleeping.
Head on over to bethkendle.comfor more details.
I'll see you next time.
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