December 24, 2024 • 56 mins
At the end of my interviews, I ask my guest a particular question. "What would you like struggling adoptees to know?" This year I included the whole triad or constellation so there are more variations on the question, but all the answers are valuable, and I hope every one of my listners finds just the right message here within.
Thank you so much for sticking with my podcast for three whole years. I am already making plans for Season 4! You are so appreciated!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti, and welcome to the
Mind Your Own Karma podcast. Hey there, Karma crew, Thanks
for joining me for this episode of Mind Your Own Karma.
The Adoption Chronicles where wenavigate the complex and deeply
(00:24):
personal world of adoption. In this episode, it's special.
We've brought together voices from all corners of the adoption
triad, adoptees, birth parents, and adoptive parents.
They are here to share heartfeltmessages of understanding,
wisdom, and hope for those who may be struggling.
Whether you're searching for connection, healing, or
(00:48):
perspective, these voices carry insights that could be exactly
what you need to hear today. Let's dive in.
I love this question that you asked your guests and I would
say investigate the many resources available.
(01:12):
And, and we've talked about them.
I've mentioned them like readingmemoirs and, and joining writing
groups and, and retreats and conferences and listening to
podcasts and, and certainly getting thoughts out of your
head through the form of journaling.
Investigate. That's the word I'm going to
(01:32):
say. Investigate all of these.
And most importantly, I wouldn'tunderestimate the power of
one-on-one relationships with another adoptee.
Well, I would say that educationand awareness and, and if you
haven't read the Primal Wound orif you haven't read some of the
(01:53):
other resources that are out there, I would, I would
definitely take advantage of those because it starts with
awareness. And when I got the awareness, I
could then take ownership of what I was understanding.
Without the awareness, I wouldn't have been able to take
ownership and I couldn't take action.
(02:13):
So I think it starts with awareness and then you can take
ownership and you have to take ownership of our part.
The, the, the biggest challenge,I think for adoptees is that
we've been victimized in some manner.
And so do we continue to take that story and become that and
then live that out or do we takeownership and change the
(02:35):
narrative? And so it's challenging those
lies, those core lies that we believed about our worthiness
and us being lovable and challenging those and replacing
them with the truth of what whatthe creator says we are.
I would also say that the community is amazing.
(02:56):
So if someone's adopted and they're not like getting into
these communities that exist in the different social platforms,
that's the one of the the best things they could do.
You listen to five podcasts thatadoptees tell their story and
you're going to hear your story being told by other people.
(03:16):
And so that those resources thatare available are amazing.
So those are the things get plugged into the space where you
can be seen and understood by people who get it.
Find a connection. Find a way to to, to express
yourself, hold space for each other because we're all in
(03:37):
different spots. Some, some of them, our
experiences have been really tragic and I wouldn't wish that
on anybody. Some of us have been in the
middle of the ground. I'm probably middle ground.
Some people have had a, you know, a fantastic, I guess if
you want to say adoption experience.
(03:58):
So there's, yeah, unlike, not unlike anything else in the
world. It's the same in this community.
But most importantly, I I do have two favorite things.
I have a favorite quote that helps me with my adoptee
identity. And it is the be yourself.
Everyone else is taken. Oscar Wilde and I also have a
(04:21):
mantra that I I've been using quite a bit in the latter part
of 2023 and the first part here of 2024, and that is to tell my
adoptive brain to calm down and to live happily.
Say it over and over. Calm down Bree, live happily. 7
words You are not alone. You have resources.
(04:44):
Those are two things I didn't have when I was growing up.
So I, I think it's wonderful to have, you know, podcasts like
this and books and, you know, adoptee biggest therapies, you
know, go out, educate yourself. You're not alone.
I'd really like us adoptees not to shoot inside the tent,
(05:08):
especially on social media. Let's try to have a little bit
of, you know, understanding and empathy, even if your situation
is a little bit different than somebody else's.
We all have that one big thing in common, and let's try not to
(05:29):
forget that. Well, you're not alone.
We're all struggling. It's hard.
I'm like, you are worthy and youdo belong.
I think that's, like, super important.
I wish that people had said thatto me my whole life.
Right. It's like to figure that out.
(05:50):
It's 40. Yeah.
And that. Yeah, it doesn't.
Your adoption is part of your identity, but it doesn't have to
define your future. You know, you can have loving
relationships. You can have money.
You can have the job that you want.
You can have whatever you want. And you don't have to let this
(06:11):
be the thing that holds you backforever.
It's not going to be easy. You're going to have to dig deep
within yourself. You're going to have to ask for
help. You're going to have to get
involved and get support every step of the way.
Get support or it'll eat you alive.
If you are emotionally struggling, find somebody who
(06:34):
can help you. I, you know, you don't want to
carry that baggage around with you.
If you were just not satisfied with what you think, you know, I
would say get out there and persistently search with an open
mind and, you know, keep your mind open to what it is you
ultimately find. And I, I guess, you know, be
(06:58):
kind to others and be kind to yourself.
You know, I, I hear a lot of adoptees talking and, and they,
they're, you know, they're hurt,but they're turning their hurt
back around on themselves. So you know you.
You know it. Nothing is your fault.
You know, so you know, give. Yourself a break.
And you know, take a deep breathand go and see what you find.
(07:22):
But again, approach. That with a.
With an open and a forgiving mind.
What would you like struggling first parents, especially first
mothers? What would you like them to
know? That there are not alone, that
this, the pain of relinquishmentis shared pretty much by all of
(07:44):
us, and that however you can do it, find a way to connect with
other birth mobs, because they will understand.
You won't. You won't have to explain, you
know, but like the support groups that I'm a part of, you
know, there's nothing like beingin a group and you say something
and every every head in the roomnods and understands.
(08:09):
Having that connection with other other people that have
been through this is vital to working through it and finding
your way to the other side and especially through reunion.
I mean, I think, I think so manyof us on all sides of reunion,
you know, we struggle with it because this is it's
complicated. And, you know, we're all feel so
(08:30):
vulnerable. Yeah, that's hard, right?
That's hard. Oh, dear.
Struggling adoptees. Oh, just asking that question
just really takes me to my heartbecause I so know the pain of
what it's like to struggle as anadoptee.
(08:50):
I guess the first thing I want to say is that you're not alone.
You're absolutely not alone. Reach out to other adoptees.
There are Facebook groups, many,many Facebook groups that you
can join with conversations withother adoptees.
Get support. Look for an adoption competent
(09:10):
therapist. If you go to Instagram and type
in #adoption trauma or adoptee voices, you will find so many
voices out there talking about adoption.
And the other thing I would say is, is trust yourself.
(09:33):
Trust yourself as much as you can.
Come back to listening to your own inner voices.
It is a confusing ride and otherpeople's voices can take you off
course. So journal, listen to yourself,
write things down, get support, and trust yourself.
(09:55):
You're meant to be here. You belong here.
Number one is that you are lovedand you belong.
You are loved and you are belongToday, whether you see it and
accept it or not, you are loved.You love had the greatest power
(10:18):
in the universe and that that exists today.
Yeah. Yeah #2 #2 is it's OK to outlive
a person's past? You know, one of the things that
I have on my bathroom wall that I see every day is this is the
(10:39):
year that I've outlived my past and that that has happened for
me and that that is real for me.And I'm so grateful for that and
the ability to outlive. The effects of your family were
original. The effects that that have come
(11:01):
with not feeling like you belong.
The fact the effects of thinkingthat you don't fit in or don't
know how to fit in the, the thoughts that there is nothing
special about you are all thingsthat it's possible to outlive
(11:21):
and, and it's possible to see the positives that have come out
of that. You know, we've been talking
about superpowers for the last couple of minutes.
And regardless of where you are,you have a superpower and you
have a purpose that only you canfulfill.
(11:43):
You have a purpose in this worldthat is special and unique to
you. And if you don't have it, the
world, if you don't show it, if you don't take it out in the
world, nobody gets the benefit of it.
And, and #3 we've all we've talked about, we've talked about
service as a part of our conversation.
(12:06):
And for me, service is so important in that
transformational journey. It helps me see my value to
others. It helps me live out my values,
right? I think I think people should be
treated with justice. I think people should be treated
fairly. I think treat people should be
treated with loving kindness. And service allows me to live
(12:29):
that out. And I think every adoptee would
benefit from that service being a part of their story as well.
And the last thing I would say is include a partner, whether
it's another adoptee, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a
sib, whether it is a, a, a, a biological or adopted parent.
(12:51):
Don't walk the journey alone. You know, one of the, one of my
favorite things that I've, that I've heard in life is that when
I'm listening to my own thoughts, I'm taking advice from
a crazy person. And for me, it's important to
have a partner on the journey and those partners have
(13:12):
increased in number, decreased in number, changed in intimacy,
changed in relationship. But walking the journey with a
partner has been absolutely crucial for me.
I would say that if you're struggling as an adoptee and
we're all individuals, just seekout different means.
(13:42):
So there might be a support group that you might want to be
a part of. There might be therapy that you
need. There might be just even if a
fellow adoptee listening to the podcast, listening to your
podcast, I'm, I'm a new listener, I'll admit.
So as I'm listening, you know, finding that other people have
(14:05):
that same story because if you feel isolated, if you feel
alone, if you feel rejected, if you feel whatever those negative
feelings are and those difficultfeelings, sometimes the only
solace that you can find is withsomeone that has or is walking
(14:25):
that same path as you. And, and if you go to a support
group and you find that that's not your your place, that you
don't feel it there, you're not getting what you need from
there, then find something else.Or maybe you need two or three
of those things. But but don't be afraid to keep
reaching out and seeking for some, some understanding, some
(14:47):
comfort, some because it's true that you just really no one
understands you as an adoptee other than fully understands you
other than another adoptee. That there is a world of people
that do get you that they're there.
Like because knowing they're there means that like, OK, now
(15:11):
we can find them. I don't know until I stumbled
upon the adoption community as far as you know, so many
adoptees that were that had donethe work and had come out of the
fog. And we're speaking about things
that my soul had felt my whole life and no one had voiced like
there is no sense of connection that's higher than that.
(15:36):
But but what came with that was,Oh my goodness, you all exist.
Like I thought I was like an alien all by myself.
Like seriously. So struggling adoptees like just
that there is, there are people that that get it.
(15:57):
And it's, it's worth your energyto make sure that you're doing
what you can to, to connect to them or find them.
Because if if they haven't already, because that I think
makes a world of difference for all adoptees.
Like it may not take care of everything, but it's a huge
(16:19):
thing to have that validation of, of knowing that they
experience the adoption part like that, that they're an
adoptee, they get it. Self acceptance is a beautiful
gift to give yourself that self love is possible, that self
(16:42):
permission is essential along this journey.
And that as you have said, layerby layer by layer, if you're
willing to do the work, you can begin to feel lighter and not so
burdened. And that you can liberate
yourself into the next chapter of your life, the next version
(17:04):
of who you're here to be a greater version than you are
today. And that you can do so and and
celebrate your worth each and every day.
And at the very end of the day, as I have on the post it note,
you are welcome into this life, but it starts with that
invitation to yourself to welcome yourself into the life
(17:29):
that you've been given to do thework of understanding the
nuances of your relationship with yourself right now.
How that may be showing up in your life, if that's serving
your higher good or not. And if it's not, what do you
need to do to move beyond a limiting belief, to move beyond
(17:52):
a pain point that's holding you back?
I believe in you. You can do it.
You can do it. You and I know this.
And it is absolutely essential to share that message with each
and every adoptee. Your value is in cannot be
measured. You are a brilliant light in
(18:15):
this world and what I want, I want to see your light from
where I'm standing. And we can start that right
here, right now, today through this conversation.
And I hope that if you feel thatspark, you recognize that that
is a sign to take the leap to step out to open the door today,
(18:38):
right here, right now. Do not wait another second.
For the first time in my life, I've learned that there are
these amazing organizations out there that support adoptees,
which I wasn't even aware of before I started writing this
book. And I wish I had known, but
(19:01):
there are so many resources now for adoptees and and also
amazing organizations that specifically supports
transracial adoptees, transnational adoptees.
And I think people just need to reach out and connect with those
resources at that will be a safespace to sort of carry them as
(19:25):
they do this really hard work ofkind of figuring out their
identity, right? It's an identity journey as an
adoptee. But now there are these amazing
organizations that are so where because they're largely run by
adoptees, right? I mean, there's just amazing
(19:46):
resources out there. So I would say reach out because
you're not alone. And they're wonderful people who
could carry you through your work and your your journey.
Yeah. We can learn to make these
things become more of an ally and an adversary.
(20:07):
We're going to learn to use a sense of loss and disconnection
into something else than what itseems to be on the surface of
that. Again, I, I wouldn't have said
that 10 years ago. I'm saying that now, but I'm
much older and I've got a lot ofexperience that helps inform me
about that. People who have a strong
internal dialogue system are much more resilient in life and,
and are not far less prone for disease and, and LLO, it only
(20:31):
stands for reasons on one hand, but what does that mean?
Internal dialogue, writing a journal, talking with somebody
sit by yourself by the side uponthinking about stuff.
Both the questions are the answers that come to you in your
ad when you're when you're doingthat that I think is that that
cultivating that self-awareness and I think also the which is a
(20:54):
theme of the book is that for some other reason fate fate
serve this up to you. How come, like in the book I
mentioned told him talking aboutPlato and Plato's Republic, that
that myth, the myth of error, which the idea being that, that
before we're born, we have a chance to choose all of our
circumstances, our parents, our children, our jobs, you know,
(21:16):
their loves, our hates, the good, the bad, all it's all laid
out like a big chess board or we've laid that out.
So it's like an obstacle course in my mind.
We have to now we have to jump the hoops to, to get to what it
is we're supposed to, we set up for ourselves to learn.
And so I tell when I do this with clients, don't don't take
this as the truth. Don't take it down as the truth.
Just suspend animation, use imagination to pretend that it
(21:37):
was. So you're stuck.
You're in a big stinking mess. So what'd you do it for?
Why did you put yourself in thisreally difficult place, you
know, where your wife hates yourex-wife hates your guts, your
kids can't stand you, your girlfriend just dumped you and
you just lost your job. So what'd you set that up for?
Well, some people, I didn't set it up for myself.
Well, it's like just imagine that you did.
(21:58):
What possibly would you What? What is it you're supposed to
learn from this? So I think that's the that that
recognition that fate as we playwith that idea that that fate is
we're not masters of our destinyand we are often reactive to
what life serves up. And if we if we can't accept
that, then we're really turning an eye to what the beauty of
(22:19):
what life really is. To know that, you know, home is,
is nowhere but in the heart in and, and I think as adoptees,
we, we look outward for that sense of home all the time.
And I think we always look to see that I'm going to find my
first family and that's home. And then I'm going to find my
(22:40):
first mother and then that's home and that's going to put
this piece together and that piece.
And it won't and, and, and we need to be more honest about
that. It won't, you know, you finding
your way back to your heart in whatever modality, in whatever
therapy and whatever it is that you can do to get you back to
that space. Because that's everything that's
(23:02):
going to change your relationship with people, that's
going to change your attachment style, that's going to change
how you show up in the world andyour worth.
And I have an adoption group that I started and I named it in
my heart, I am home. And that has been my mantra.
Of course, I'm going to say sound right, but somatic.
(23:22):
Thank you for what you do because getting back into my
body and breath and that expression of emotion so
important. I didn't know I I was holding so
much. But for adoptees, what you let
in is so important. We have so much to release that,
you know, spending time in nature, spending time in sound
(23:44):
and experiencing sound bath, finding ways to find the way
back into your body. You know, opening that that
container can be very scary because the amount it feels like
I almost like, I describe it as like a knot of emotions that you
have to unravel. And that can be really daunting
and scary at first. But trust me, once you start
(24:06):
letting that go and you start feeling the lightness, that
heart space will start to open and shine.
And you know, you're always gonna fall down.
You're always gonna, you know, find that.
But whatever works for you, keepgoing to that, keep going back
to that because home is always here, you know, and it's just a
constant reminder. It's not your parents, it's not
your birth parents. It's not your boyfriend, it's
(24:27):
not your girlfriend. It's here.
So what would you like struggling adoptees to know that
there is healing? I I, I really believe that I
hear from a lot of people that healing heal or being healed
isn't possible. Yes.
(24:47):
And I actually kind of agree with that statement.
I do not think past tense healing is when we say healed.
I will never have arrived. I will did that make sense?
I I will be actively healing forthe rest of my life.
But I do believe that healing ispossible.
(25:08):
I do believe that we can find our identity within ourselves.
I do believe that there are layers and layers of us that are
worthy of becoming known and we just have to be willing to
explore them and be curious and be compassionate and loving of
them and not exiling them. Like those fragmented pieces
(25:30):
that happened for me. I had to learn how to show them
compassion and how to love up onthem.
And now I feel like that part ofme, my internal family system
that we talked about, those parts, you really feel like they
belong and they're quieter now, like they're not as loud and
screaming because I've really been able to show them
(25:51):
compassion. I would like adoptees to know
that it's not their fault that if they're struggling with
taking care of their body or understanding how to eat or how
to move, that there are so many factors that have made it that
way. And that the things that we that
(26:13):
we do with food and with exercise help us survive and
help us cope with difficult situations, sensations and
feelings. And it's wise.
It's a wise survival skill. And it's brave to realize that
maybe you need help and you needsupport.
(26:33):
And luckily, there are so many adoptees in our world who are
here to help support and heal and get you, get you where you
want to go. I want you to know that it gets
better and that there are there,there is help if you, if you, if
you look for it, you know that there are those of us out there
(26:55):
that are, that are here to connect with you to be life
lines. I want them to know that they
can reach out to me at any time.I, I, I would tell people, I
think of me as a resource and a,and a, and a connection point.
I people e-mail me all the time and they're like, Hey, and then,
you know, we either have these long e-mail conversations or we
(27:16):
get on Zoom and they're like, can we connect, you know?
And, and yeah. And I, I want adoptees to know
that wherever you are, it's OK. And that if you're feeling
really lost or really confused or like there isn't any hope,
(27:38):
please reach out. Yeah, because there's lots of us
here in this community that are here to to hold you.
What do you want? Adoptees that might be
struggling with their relationships with either their
birth mother or adoptive mother,What would you want them to
know? It starts with, it starts with
(27:59):
us first starts with us and the connection with ourselves.
Because then we, if we really dothat work, we realise that we
came from somewhere and we can, if we really do that work,
we're, we're within ourselves doing this work, not outside
where all of this practical stuff happens.
(28:22):
And that that what was happeningaround us when we didn't
remember. I would want adoptees to be
looking at their own story from within themselves because for me
that direct connection with my birth mother that way led me to
her story, her story from there,from we were together, we were
(28:53):
one. And then the realisation that we
were both damaged by this. Yeah.
Because then that's led me on tolooking into her childhood like
(29:16):
it was in the war days. It was in this, this just
considering what was going on then just connected me more to
and also the same with my, my adoptive mum.
You know, my adoptive mum didn'treally know how to be emotional
(29:37):
because she was never brought upthat way.
And the reason she wanted lots of children around and she
wanted to do good for so many children was because her dad, my
granddad, used to lock her up under the stairs on her own when
she was 4-5 years old. And she was petrified.
She never wanted a child to go through that.
(29:58):
Wow. So as much as I was, you know,
angry and how could you adopt meand all of this it it it really
does help to to go within and look at our ourselves first
primarily and then our stories, our birth stories, all of them.
(30:22):
I think they need to know they're not alone.
This is a really complexed, nuanced way of being in the
world and way of being family topeople.
And you're not alone. There are other people out
there. And to know that there are
resources, there's people, there's books, there's groups
(30:43):
and organizations that can help you walk through this journey.
I'm just, I'm always so amazed at the people who say I don't
know anybody like me and I'm like, well, let's help you find
them. I try and connect with them.
Not alone. That thing I found out once I
(31:04):
started, you know, going to events and talking to people,
you know, been on a couple podcasts.
When I went to Tucson, I, you know, Aunt Diane told me to
submit for the Independent Author Award.
I never even knew about it. I submitted, went, worked out
well. And there was another adopter
who's accepted Emma Stevens. And so I got to know Emma and
(31:26):
Emma's amazing, and her books are.
Amazing and. Just, you know, and then at the
top, the authors, there were so many people, Tony and Jen and
Paul and all these people and, and, and Angie and there's so
many great people. And just the more people you get
to know, it feels like you're alone, but you're not.
(31:48):
And don't be afraid because the things like you were just saying
right hand, the things you're afraid to admit you, you think
other people are thinking about too.
What message would you convey toadoptive parents that might be
thinking about or potential adoptive parents that are
considering adoption? So I mean, I think that what I
(32:11):
say is this is maternal separation is trauma.
And when you commodify a child by using a tool like adoption to
acquire them, which erases theiridentity is essentially it's a
an industry that is delivering aproduct to a market, you
compound that trauma potentially.
(32:31):
So I mean, these are all the, the trauma is real, the
manifestations are potential, the outcomes our potential, but
the potentials are high and terrible.
And no one really seems to thinkabout that.
And part of the reason that you don't find large cohorts of
unhappy adult adoptees is because they don't exist, right?
(32:53):
They end their lives. If you look at the data for
maternal separation trauma, adoptive people who go through
maternal separation trauma contemplate suicide four times
more than people who don't. There's different studies that
say 6. There's some that say 2, but 4
is pretty consistent. And people don't really think
(33:13):
about what that means. But if you look at statistics,
like during the pandemic, 12% ofkids between the ages of 14 and
24 are contemplated suicide. And what that means is that in
that same age range, the adoptees, I mean, sure, there's
variances. It's not at 1:00 to 1:00, right?
But that means 52% of those kidscontemplated suicide, 52% of a
(33:35):
population considering taking their life sounds just terrible
to me. And if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong
and it's only 35% of a population, right, it's still
just horrible. Like, and they're young, right?
And the problem is, is that there's that age band where it
happens and, and it still keeps happening, right?
But there's is it, it's, you know, sure that it does go down
(33:58):
to 30% or whatever, but in the end there's fewer adoptees to
ask the questions to. I want adoptees to know that no
matter where you are in life, your mother has a hole in her
heart because you're not there. There is not a single mother
that does not have her child in her care that does not think
(34:19):
about that child. I mean, until you can prove me
wrong, there's not a mom that hasn't thought about that child.
So that adoptee needs to know. Even because I was removed from
my mother, my mother thought about me.
My birthday always came across her heart on my birthday because
that day was so ingrained in herhead.
You were always loved. You were always thought about,
(34:41):
no matter what your situation was.
That got you to the point that you are.
You were always thought about. There's not always a way out,
but until your mother can come and care for you again, you need
to think of yourself and take care of yourself because nobody
else is going to. So pick yourself up.
(35:01):
It's going to be OK. You will find your mom that that
primal instinct will always come.
It's like 2 strings that always end up meeting in the middle.
It's always there. Keep going because you will find
her eventually. What would you like struggling
adoptees to know? That you belong, that you're
(35:23):
worthy, that you're loved. And you might not have people in
your current vicinity that treatyou that way, but there are a
community of, of adoptees that do love you and will love you
(35:44):
and will accept you and where you do belong.
And I want them to know that they're not alone and they don't
have to do this thing alone. And I also want them to know
that wherever they're at in their adoptee journey, whether
(36:05):
they have come out of the fog and they say that in quotation
marks, I whether they, you know,are totally comfortable and
happy with their adoption experience or whether they are
raging mad about their adoption experience, that wherever you're
(36:25):
at, that's OK. And it's, it's all part of your,
it's all part of your journey. It's all part of your journey.
I, I really, I really, and I saythat because I had a really hard
time when I started to, to meet other adoptees.
And I would see some of them, you know, hating their
(36:47):
biological parents or hating their adoptive parents.
And I thought, Oh my gosh, what's wrong with me?
Should I, should I hate my adoptive parents?
Should I be more angry about this?
You know, yeah. And, and I, I really had to, to
accept that. No, like everybody really is
just on their own journey. And it's OK.
(37:11):
It's real, what you're feeling. It's not made-up.
It's not your fault. It's in your.
It's in your DNA. And there's hope.
I think I can say it's worth it.Even with rejection, it's worth
it. And when you get to that place,
(37:34):
when you're tired and you reallywant answers and you want to
stop this facade of you and findand start, start the work of
you, it's worth it. Yeah, even though it's hard.
I would like to them to know that there are a lot of people
out there like them. I would like for them to join
(37:59):
some of the support groups because that's been extremely
helpful. Talk to people like you.
If you're an adoptee that cannotfind your family, read stories
about people that did because there's a lot of stories that
people who went to great lengthsto find their family and now
wish they hadn't you. You may not like what you find
(38:22):
and if you do find if you are one, then you have these
options. Find out what other people have
done to find their families and,you know, follow some of their
examples and some of their leads.
What do you want your adoptive daughter to know that I'm more
(38:45):
educated now than I was or beginning with beginning with my
my research phase of our relationship and in in the
beginning, you know, I was not as prepared as I should have
been. Is, is, is my personal view and
that now I'm I'm I'm dedicated to helping others be more
(39:07):
prepared so that they can make the most of their younger their
all their years together insteadof having regrets later on.
So what would you like people toknow about your experience?
And it could be anything about your adoption experience that
you just want the average personto know that they might not know
(39:30):
once. I want people to know that
adoptees do not have the same rights as anyone else.
Like we were talking about we, there are things that we're just
not allowed to do. And then if we do them, it's a
great expense to us, like finding, reaching out to family.
Not everyone can do that. We have to go through the DNA
(39:53):
hoops and things like that. So when we're saying, you know
that we're angry. That is righteous anger because
we don't have the same rights, and that anger is the absolute
normal feeling for what we have.So if you could say something to
your daughter, what would you want her to know?
(40:16):
I love her and she should be here with me, yeah.
Yeah. All right.
I'm going to cry. That's OK.
What advice would you give adopted parents?
Adoptive parents, I really thinkfor everybody, it's just to like
do the research. Like it's, it's not about like
(40:41):
it is actually OK for people to want to have something and not
ever get it. It's OK for you to want to have
children but never be able to have children.
And I think some people just need to accept that you're
(41:02):
you're you may not ever be a mom, you may not ever be a dad.
You could be a really great aunt, uncle support system for
somebody else if you're not willing to put the needs of the
child first. So if you want to adopt and you
can and you're doing that for the right reasons, you're
(41:23):
actually doing that to provide asafe, healthy home for a child
who would not have had that otherwise.
I think that that's really great.
I but I also think that just because we want something, I
mean, I'd love to be really skinny, but unless I have
surgery or just stop eating or exercise, there's sacrifices I
(41:46):
have to make to get that, you know?
And so, yeah, I think that's a big thing that I, I just think
it's really, really important for us to remember and to know
this child, like came from somewhere.
And I would say they shouldn't have a job.
Your babies shouldn't have a job.
(42:07):
As soon as they're, they come into the family, you know, they
shouldn't be a Band-Aid. Yeah.
In essence, what would you like struggling, either foster
parents or potential adoptive parents to know?
The main thing I, I would love everyone to know is just get
informed again, if something doesn't feel right, if some, if,
(42:30):
if you need help, it's OK to askfor help.
It's OK to reach out. It's OK to get educated.
It's like there is no right or wrong way of doing things like
it, it, it's all, this is all part of life lessons.
We're going to mess up. We're not going to be perfect.
I've made my, I have made so many mistakes along this
(42:52):
journey, but the thing that has really helped me is knowing that
I have a support system. So to really ask for help and
really look for your support system, look for people who are
going to support you and have your bag and, and people who are
going to call you out and not, not not people who are going to
(43:13):
sugarcoat and be like, Oh, you're doing just fine.
Like call like have those friends who are going to say,
hey, that was that OK, And be like, oh shit, you're right.
That was that OK. And really like find that
because children are teachers, biologically or not, children
(43:34):
are teachers. Children are mirrors.
They are going to mirror everything, the things that we
don't like to the things that welove.
They're that's what they're, that's what they're going to do.
And if we find ways to really look at that mirror and let find
the lessons, but we can't find those lessons alone.
(43:55):
Like we need support. We need people, we need a
village. I have never really understood
the gravity of that term or thatphrase of it takes a village to
raise a child. No, it takes a whole freaking
city. Like it takes more than it takes
every single person to do their part to raise a child because
they that is our next generation.
(44:17):
So don't do it alone. Find support, find people, ask
for help because that's, I mean,that's all we need to do.
We don't need to figure these things out on our own.
Well, what advice would you givea birth mother that went through
a similar thing, you know, maybefound out that their child had
already passed or passed after they met them?
(44:40):
What kind of support helped you?What helped you get through it?
I want them to know that once you start talking and writing
about it just in a journal, justwrite it.
It's it's not something to hold within you, it's something to
find someone to a support. Group A grieving group.
(45:02):
I was fortunate to know women who are psychologists because I
truly believe the more we talk, the more we help each other.
So many birth mothers I found too, even some that I knew at
the home. Still cannot talk about it.
They cannot talk about being that in that experience or
(45:24):
giving up a child. You're ashamed of yourself even
when you are OK with the adoption.
I've talked. To so many of them, I know we do
have issues that will never go away.
A lot of my, A lot of my. I guess you got to call it shame
(45:44):
still lives within me. So, you know, there's you're
probably right. You're probably right.
So in closing, what would you like struggling adoptive parents
to know? Maybe that they're struggling
with maybe the birth mother or just raising their adoptive
child. What would you like them to
know? You guys are not alone.
(46:06):
I think there's a lot of us, youknow, out there.
And actually, you know, when youare talking, asking me if I was
part of the community, I was, I was going to look around to see
if there was no other parents like the adopted parents who
have issue, you know, with the their birth mother and see, you
know, what did you do guys? You know why?
What did you do? Did you talk to a mediator?
(46:27):
Did moderator? Did you contact a lawyer?
You know what's going on becausesometime I think that we need a
break and sometime I think, you know, it might even be better
for her. Maybe she can talk to her when
she when she can respond to her.And I'll try and be odd enough
to respond to her because right next to them.
So yeah, just know you're not alone.
(46:51):
There's a lot of of us out therestruggling a little bit, but
it's all worth it. It's all worth it.
I'm happy everyday when I see. Her I'm happy everyday so.
She's really part of family. What would you want struggling
adoptive parents to know? Well, I would definitely want
them to know that there really is hope and it's probably not
(47:14):
more experts giving you another parenting strategy.
I, I, I feel so confident that if, you know, if you're
struggling with behaviors, that working with a coach can really
shift that around for you. But it can't just be any coach.
(47:34):
I know I've heard some other, I've, I've heard parents talk
about, well, you know, the county gave me a coach, but it
was just somebody giving me parenting strategies, not
helping me to show up apparently.
So it, it doesn't matter the kind of coach and, and I really
feel strongly that it should be on somebody who understands what
(47:54):
you're going through because, because it isn't easy when you
when your emotions are wrapped up and what you're trying to
work through, it isn't easy. So, so I would, you know, I hope
that your listeners leave this conversation and all of your
your episodes, but leave feelinglike there is hope and it might
(48:18):
take just doing things a little bit differently than you've done
that before. What advice do you have for
those thinking about adoption and what questions would you say
they should be asking themselvesbefore they adopt?
Number one advice, you have to be listening to adoptees, like
(48:38):
by listening to this podcast, I think that you are taking a good
first step by listening to adoptees and listening to like
some of the core issues around adoption.
Because it's not something that you can just dismiss or just,
you know, expect that won't happen to you or expect that
that's not going to be your experience because it most
likely will. And you also need to, you need
(49:02):
to be centering their voices in all of this because that's what
actually matters. I mean, I, I think that there
are so many amazing adoptees on Instagram or, you know, on
social media or have, that have podcasts that are really sharing
a lot of the hard topics that you need to be wrestling with
before you're going through this.
Because it's kind of like the tough love that I would have to
(49:26):
give to the adoptive parents that I worked with.
You have to, you have to be ready to be a parent.
You can't, this isn't something that you can just like hope that
some of the stuff resolves laterdown down the road or like, you
know, hope that you find some friends that are part of your
child's culture or hope that you, you know, you, you have to,
(49:46):
you have to put in the work now because it's not when you become
a parent, it gets a whole lot harder to make friends.
It gets a whole lot harder to read some of these books, gets a
whole lot harder to go to therapy.
And so it's like, do the work now and, and listen to those
voices. And, you know, I think that
that's that's the most importantthing.
What would you like struggling adoptees and others in the
(50:09):
adoption triad to know? I think what I love people to
take away from this is being taking responsibility for your
experience and then playing withthe idea of what is.
What is you being a Liberator inyour life look like?
(50:32):
How does that add like having that frequency of liberation?
What does that feeling look like?
Add that into your world. What would you like struggling
adoptive parents to know? Oh, I think the number one thing
(50:55):
I would like struggling adoptiveparents to know is that you're
doing a great job. And I say this because when I
think of struggle, there's so many different ways that we
struggle on this journey. And as we struggle, at least for
me, in the back of my mind, I'm like, am I doing the right
(51:16):
thing? But I'm not his birth mom.
Is this OK? Am I doing all these things the
right way and things like that? But I'm like, OK, this imposter
syndrome needs to go away and I need to realize that hey, I, I'm
doing a great job. We're doing a great job as
parents. We're doing what we think is
(51:38):
right. But the same time there are
resources out there if we reallyneed them.
Like mentioned, you can go see atherapist.
You could do family therapy, individual therapy for your
child if needed. Speaking to doctors, one of the
things I really want to do for my son is get him genetically
tested. Just so we know, OK, here are
(51:59):
all the things that could happenmoving forward so that we can
help and be on top of it if it comes up.
It may not come up, but it's also going to be great for him
when he gets older and has to goto doctor's appointments and
fill out all this paperwork to be able to know, OK, yes, I have
a family history of this, a family history of that.
(52:19):
So the things I would say is youare a great parent and you're
doing the best thing you you know how to do currently, but
also try and tap into different resources that are out there to
be able to help you in the areasthat you are struggling with.
What do you want other adoptees that might be struggling with
(52:41):
attempting to end their life? What do you want them to know?
Yeah, from, from my heart, like from somebody.
Lot of people could say they getit, but they don't.
And I get it. I I need you to love you.
(53:03):
I need, I need you to love you in a way that that when you was
in love, it, it, it doesn't define you.
And when you aren't loved and when you aren't appreciated, it
doesn't define you and you aren't triggered.
I mean, I need you to love yourself in a way that it
doesn't matter who didn't love you when they didn't love you.
You got to love yourself becauseyou're not defined by who didn't
(53:29):
love you, who gave you up, who didn't want you, who didn't see
that your light. You only define for the moments
that you love you in them. I hate it's got to be a you
moment. I I've had to understand this
about me. It's got to be you.
You got to love you. You got to love you.
(53:49):
No warranty. We got this thing in California,
we buy a car as is. No warranty.
That means you can't take that car back.
You cannot take you back. You got to love you.
All flaws, however you were created, whatever color you are,
however your hair looks, whatever your body size is, you
got to love you. You got to love you like you got
(54:10):
to start there, because as long as you don't love you, you will
always be defined by somebody else's decision, and that
decision doesn't define you. I've lived in it for years.
I've lived in that shadow, trying to understand why for
years. She doesn't define me.
He didn't define me. It didn't define me.
(54:33):
I'm only defined by what I say. I'm building this life.
I've made a lot of decisions because I was hurt.
And I know you've made a lot of decisions because you've been
hurt, you've been misunderstood.But today is your chance to get
better. You know, today is your chance
to accept who you are. And you could do it right now in
(54:55):
this moment. And you don't need validation
from anything or anybody. And I love you, and I mean that.
Thank you for joining us for this powerful episode of Mind
Your Own Karma, The Adoption Chronicles.
The voices you've heard today remind all of us of the shared
(55:16):
humanity within the adoption journey and community, proof
that understanding and healing are possible no matter where you
are in the process. If today's stories resonated
with you, please share this episode and continue the
conversation. If anyone that you saw or heard
(55:38):
today resonated with you personally, please don't
hesitate to reach out to them. Many of them have written books
or counselors or coaches or havecourses to help adoptees in so
many ways that I can't even list.
Reach out to them and see what they have to offer.
(55:59):
Until next time, remember your story matters, your voice
matters, and together we are rewriting what it means to
belong. In closing, as always, take what
you need and leave what you don't.
And always remember to mind yourown karma.
(56:19):
I'll see you next time. This podcast is created for
educational purposes by the telling of adoption experiences.
The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the
host or Mind Your Own Karma.
Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti, and welcome to the
Mind Your Own Karma podcast. Hey there, Karma crew, Thanks
for joining me for this episode of Mind Your Own Karma.
The Adoption Chronicles where wenavigate the complex and deeply
(00:24):
personal world of adoption. In this episode, it's special.
We've brought together voices from all corners of the adoption
triad, adoptees, birth parents, and adoptive parents.
They are here to share heartfeltmessages of understanding,
wisdom, and hope for those who may be struggling.
Whether you're searching for connection, healing, or
(00:48):
perspective, these voices carry insights that could be exactly
what you need to hear today. Let's dive in.
I love this question that you asked your guests and I would
say investigate the many resources available.
(01:12):
And, and we've talked about them.
I've mentioned them like readingmemoirs and, and joining writing
groups and, and retreats and conferences and listening to
podcasts and, and certainly getting thoughts out of your
head through the form of journaling.
Investigate. That's the word I'm going to
(01:32):
say. Investigate all of these.
And most importantly, I wouldn'tunderestimate the power of
one-on-one relationships with another adoptee.
Well, I would say that educationand awareness and, and if you
haven't read the Primal Wound orif you haven't read some of the
(01:53):
other resources that are out there, I would, I would
definitely take advantage of those because it starts with
awareness. And when I got the awareness, I
could then take ownership of what I was understanding.
Without the awareness, I wouldn't have been able to take
ownership and I couldn't take action.
(02:13):
So I think it starts with awareness and then you can take
ownership and you have to take ownership of our part.
The, the, the biggest challenge,I think for adoptees is that
we've been victimized in some manner.
And so do we continue to take that story and become that and
then live that out or do we takeownership and change the
(02:35):
narrative? And so it's challenging those
lies, those core lies that we believed about our worthiness
and us being lovable and challenging those and replacing
them with the truth of what whatthe creator says we are.
I would also say that the community is amazing.
(02:56):
So if someone's adopted and they're not like getting into
these communities that exist in the different social platforms,
that's the one of the the best things they could do.
You listen to five podcasts thatadoptees tell their story and
you're going to hear your story being told by other people.
(03:16):
And so that those resources thatare available are amazing.
So those are the things get plugged into the space where you
can be seen and understood by people who get it.
Find a connection. Find a way to to, to express
yourself, hold space for each other because we're all in
(03:37):
different spots. Some, some of them, our
experiences have been really tragic and I wouldn't wish that
on anybody. Some of us have been in the
middle of the ground. I'm probably middle ground.
Some people have had a, you know, a fantastic, I guess if
you want to say adoption experience.
(03:58):
So there's, yeah, unlike, not unlike anything else in the
world. It's the same in this community.
But most importantly, I I do have two favorite things.
I have a favorite quote that helps me with my adoptee
identity. And it is the be yourself.
Everyone else is taken. Oscar Wilde and I also have a
(04:21):
mantra that I I've been using quite a bit in the latter part
of 2023 and the first part here of 2024, and that is to tell my
adoptive brain to calm down and to live happily.
Say it over and over. Calm down Bree, live happily. 7
words You are not alone. You have resources.
(04:44):
Those are two things I didn't have when I was growing up.
So I, I think it's wonderful to have, you know, podcasts like
this and books and, you know, adoptee biggest therapies, you
know, go out, educate yourself. You're not alone.
I'd really like us adoptees not to shoot inside the tent,
(05:08):
especially on social media. Let's try to have a little bit
of, you know, understanding and empathy, even if your situation
is a little bit different than somebody else's.
We all have that one big thing in common, and let's try not to
(05:29):
forget that. Well, you're not alone.
We're all struggling. It's hard.
I'm like, you are worthy and youdo belong.
I think that's, like, super important.
I wish that people had said thatto me my whole life.
Right. It's like to figure that out.
(05:50):
It's 40. Yeah.
And that. Yeah, it doesn't.
Your adoption is part of your identity, but it doesn't have to
define your future. You know, you can have loving
relationships. You can have money.
You can have the job that you want.
You can have whatever you want. And you don't have to let this
(06:11):
be the thing that holds you backforever.
It's not going to be easy. You're going to have to dig deep
within yourself. You're going to have to ask for
help. You're going to have to get
involved and get support every step of the way.
Get support or it'll eat you alive.
If you are emotionally struggling, find somebody who
(06:34):
can help you. I, you know, you don't want to
carry that baggage around with you.
If you were just not satisfied with what you think, you know, I
would say get out there and persistently search with an open
mind and, you know, keep your mind open to what it is you
ultimately find. And I, I guess, you know, be
(06:58):
kind to others and be kind to yourself.
You know, I, I hear a lot of adoptees talking and, and they,
they're, you know, they're hurt,but they're turning their hurt
back around on themselves. So you know you.
You know it. Nothing is your fault.
You know, so you know, give. Yourself a break.
And you know, take a deep breathand go and see what you find.
(07:22):
But again, approach. That with a.
With an open and a forgiving mind.
What would you like struggling first parents, especially first
mothers? What would you like them to
know? That there are not alone, that
this, the pain of relinquishmentis shared pretty much by all of
(07:44):
us, and that however you can do it, find a way to connect with
other birth mobs, because they will understand.
You won't. You won't have to explain, you
know, but like the support groups that I'm a part of, you
know, there's nothing like beingin a group and you say something
and every every head in the roomnods and understands.
(08:09):
Having that connection with other other people that have
been through this is vital to working through it and finding
your way to the other side and especially through reunion.
I mean, I think, I think so manyof us on all sides of reunion,
you know, we struggle with it because this is it's
complicated. And, you know, we're all feel so
(08:30):
vulnerable. Yeah, that's hard, right?
That's hard. Oh, dear.
Struggling adoptees. Oh, just asking that question
just really takes me to my heartbecause I so know the pain of
what it's like to struggle as anadoptee.
(08:50):
I guess the first thing I want to say is that you're not alone.
You're absolutely not alone. Reach out to other adoptees.
There are Facebook groups, many,many Facebook groups that you
can join with conversations withother adoptees.
Get support. Look for an adoption competent
(09:10):
therapist. If you go to Instagram and type
in #adoption trauma or adoptee voices, you will find so many
voices out there talking about adoption.
And the other thing I would say is, is trust yourself.
(09:33):
Trust yourself as much as you can.
Come back to listening to your own inner voices.
It is a confusing ride and otherpeople's voices can take you off
course. So journal, listen to yourself,
write things down, get support, and trust yourself.
(09:55):
You're meant to be here. You belong here.
Number one is that you are lovedand you belong.
You are loved and you are belongToday, whether you see it and
accept it or not, you are loved.You love had the greatest power
(10:18):
in the universe and that that exists today.
Yeah. Yeah #2 #2 is it's OK to outlive
a person's past? You know, one of the things that
I have on my bathroom wall that I see every day is this is the
(10:39):
year that I've outlived my past and that that has happened for
me and that that is real for me.And I'm so grateful for that and
the ability to outlive. The effects of your family were
original. The effects that that have come
(11:01):
with not feeling like you belong.
The fact the effects of thinkingthat you don't fit in or don't
know how to fit in the, the thoughts that there is nothing
special about you are all thingsthat it's possible to outlive
(11:21):
and, and it's possible to see the positives that have come out
of that. You know, we've been talking
about superpowers for the last couple of minutes.
And regardless of where you are,you have a superpower and you
have a purpose that only you canfulfill.
(11:43):
You have a purpose in this worldthat is special and unique to
you. And if you don't have it, the
world, if you don't show it, if you don't take it out in the
world, nobody gets the benefit of it.
And, and #3 we've all we've talked about, we've talked about
service as a part of our conversation.
(12:06):
And for me, service is so important in that
transformational journey. It helps me see my value to
others. It helps me live out my values,
right? I think I think people should be
treated with justice. I think people should be treated
fairly. I think treat people should be
treated with loving kindness. And service allows me to live
(12:29):
that out. And I think every adoptee would
benefit from that service being a part of their story as well.
And the last thing I would say is include a partner, whether
it's another adoptee, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a
sib, whether it is a, a, a, a biological or adopted parent.
(12:51):
Don't walk the journey alone. You know, one of the, one of my
favorite things that I've, that I've heard in life is that when
I'm listening to my own thoughts, I'm taking advice from
a crazy person. And for me, it's important to
have a partner on the journey and those partners have
(13:12):
increased in number, decreased in number, changed in intimacy,
changed in relationship. But walking the journey with a
partner has been absolutely crucial for me.
I would say that if you're struggling as an adoptee and
we're all individuals, just seekout different means.
(13:42):
So there might be a support group that you might want to be
a part of. There might be therapy that you
need. There might be just even if a
fellow adoptee listening to the podcast, listening to your
podcast, I'm, I'm a new listener, I'll admit.
So as I'm listening, you know, finding that other people have
(14:05):
that same story because if you feel isolated, if you feel
alone, if you feel rejected, if you feel whatever those negative
feelings are and those difficultfeelings, sometimes the only
solace that you can find is withsomeone that has or is walking
(14:25):
that same path as you. And, and if you go to a support
group and you find that that's not your your place, that you
don't feel it there, you're not getting what you need from
there, then find something else.Or maybe you need two or three
of those things. But but don't be afraid to keep
reaching out and seeking for some, some understanding, some
(14:47):
comfort, some because it's true that you just really no one
understands you as an adoptee other than fully understands you
other than another adoptee. That there is a world of people
that do get you that they're there.
Like because knowing they're there means that like, OK, now
(15:11):
we can find them. I don't know until I stumbled
upon the adoption community as far as you know, so many
adoptees that were that had donethe work and had come out of the
fog. And we're speaking about things
that my soul had felt my whole life and no one had voiced like
there is no sense of connection that's higher than that.
(15:36):
But but what came with that was,Oh my goodness, you all exist.
Like I thought I was like an alien all by myself.
Like seriously. So struggling adoptees like just
that there is, there are people that that get it.
(15:57):
And it's, it's worth your energyto make sure that you're doing
what you can to, to connect to them or find them.
Because if if they haven't already, because that I think
makes a world of difference for all adoptees.
Like it may not take care of everything, but it's a huge
(16:19):
thing to have that validation of, of knowing that they
experience the adoption part like that, that they're an
adoptee, they get it. Self acceptance is a beautiful
gift to give yourself that self love is possible, that self
(16:42):
permission is essential along this journey.
And that as you have said, layerby layer by layer, if you're
willing to do the work, you can begin to feel lighter and not so
burdened. And that you can liberate
yourself into the next chapter of your life, the next version
(17:04):
of who you're here to be a greater version than you are
today. And that you can do so and and
celebrate your worth each and every day.
And at the very end of the day, as I have on the post it note,
you are welcome into this life, but it starts with that
invitation to yourself to welcome yourself into the life
(17:29):
that you've been given to do thework of understanding the
nuances of your relationship with yourself right now.
How that may be showing up in your life, if that's serving
your higher good or not. And if it's not, what do you
need to do to move beyond a limiting belief, to move beyond
(17:52):
a pain point that's holding you back?
I believe in you. You can do it.
You can do it. You and I know this.
And it is absolutely essential to share that message with each
and every adoptee. Your value is in cannot be
measured. You are a brilliant light in
(18:15):
this world and what I want, I want to see your light from
where I'm standing. And we can start that right
here, right now, today through this conversation.
And I hope that if you feel thatspark, you recognize that that
is a sign to take the leap to step out to open the door today,
(18:38):
right here, right now. Do not wait another second.
For the first time in my life, I've learned that there are
these amazing organizations out there that support adoptees,
which I wasn't even aware of before I started writing this
book. And I wish I had known, but
(19:01):
there are so many resources now for adoptees and and also
amazing organizations that specifically supports
transracial adoptees, transnational adoptees.
And I think people just need to reach out and connect with those
resources at that will be a safespace to sort of carry them as
(19:25):
they do this really hard work ofkind of figuring out their
identity, right? It's an identity journey as an
adoptee. But now there are these amazing
organizations that are so where because they're largely run by
adoptees, right? I mean, there's just amazing
(19:46):
resources out there. So I would say reach out because
you're not alone. And they're wonderful people who
could carry you through your work and your your journey.
Yeah. We can learn to make these
things become more of an ally and an adversary.
(20:07):
We're going to learn to use a sense of loss and disconnection
into something else than what itseems to be on the surface of
that. Again, I, I wouldn't have said
that 10 years ago. I'm saying that now, but I'm
much older and I've got a lot ofexperience that helps inform me
about that. People who have a strong
internal dialogue system are much more resilient in life and,
and are not far less prone for disease and, and LLO, it only
(20:31):
stands for reasons on one hand, but what does that mean?
Internal dialogue, writing a journal, talking with somebody
sit by yourself by the side uponthinking about stuff.
Both the questions are the answers that come to you in your
ad when you're when you're doingthat that I think is that that
cultivating that self-awareness and I think also the which is a
(20:54):
theme of the book is that for some other reason fate fate
serve this up to you. How come, like in the book I
mentioned told him talking aboutPlato and Plato's Republic, that
that myth, the myth of error, which the idea being that, that
before we're born, we have a chance to choose all of our
circumstances, our parents, our children, our jobs, you know,
(21:16):
their loves, our hates, the good, the bad, all it's all laid
out like a big chess board or we've laid that out.
So it's like an obstacle course in my mind.
We have to now we have to jump the hoops to, to get to what it
is we're supposed to, we set up for ourselves to learn.
And so I tell when I do this with clients, don't don't take
this as the truth. Don't take it down as the truth.
Just suspend animation, use imagination to pretend that it
(21:37):
was. So you're stuck.
You're in a big stinking mess. So what'd you do it for?
Why did you put yourself in thisreally difficult place, you
know, where your wife hates yourex-wife hates your guts, your
kids can't stand you, your girlfriend just dumped you and
you just lost your job. So what'd you set that up for?
Well, some people, I didn't set it up for myself.
Well, it's like just imagine that you did.
(21:58):
What possibly would you What? What is it you're supposed to
learn from this? So I think that's the that that
recognition that fate as we playwith that idea that that fate is
we're not masters of our destinyand we are often reactive to
what life serves up. And if we if we can't accept
that, then we're really turning an eye to what the beauty of
(22:19):
what life really is. To know that, you know, home is,
is nowhere but in the heart in and, and I think as adoptees,
we, we look outward for that sense of home all the time.
And I think we always look to see that I'm going to find my
first family and that's home. And then I'm going to find my
(22:40):
first mother and then that's home and that's going to put
this piece together and that piece.
And it won't and, and, and we need to be more honest about
that. It won't, you know, you finding
your way back to your heart in whatever modality, in whatever
therapy and whatever it is that you can do to get you back to
that space. Because that's everything that's
(23:02):
going to change your relationship with people, that's
going to change your attachment style, that's going to change
how you show up in the world andyour worth.
And I have an adoption group that I started and I named it in
my heart, I am home. And that has been my mantra.
Of course, I'm going to say sound right, but somatic.
(23:22):
Thank you for what you do because getting back into my
body and breath and that expression of emotion so
important. I didn't know I I was holding so
much. But for adoptees, what you let
in is so important. We have so much to release that,
you know, spending time in nature, spending time in sound
(23:44):
and experiencing sound bath, finding ways to find the way
back into your body. You know, opening that that
container can be very scary because the amount it feels like
I almost like, I describe it as like a knot of emotions that you
have to unravel. And that can be really daunting
and scary at first. But trust me, once you start
(24:06):
letting that go and you start feeling the lightness, that
heart space will start to open and shine.
And you know, you're always gonna fall down.
You're always gonna, you know, find that.
But whatever works for you, keepgoing to that, keep going back
to that because home is always here, you know, and it's just a
constant reminder. It's not your parents, it's not
your birth parents. It's not your boyfriend, it's
(24:27):
not your girlfriend. It's here.
So what would you like struggling adoptees to know that
there is healing? I I, I really believe that I
hear from a lot of people that healing heal or being healed
isn't possible. Yes.
(24:47):
And I actually kind of agree with that statement.
I do not think past tense healing is when we say healed.
I will never have arrived. I will did that make sense?
I I will be actively healing forthe rest of my life.
But I do believe that healing ispossible.
(25:08):
I do believe that we can find our identity within ourselves.
I do believe that there are layers and layers of us that are
worthy of becoming known and we just have to be willing to
explore them and be curious and be compassionate and loving of
them and not exiling them. Like those fragmented pieces
(25:30):
that happened for me. I had to learn how to show them
compassion and how to love up onthem.
And now I feel like that part ofme, my internal family system
that we talked about, those parts, you really feel like they
belong and they're quieter now, like they're not as loud and
screaming because I've really been able to show them
(25:51):
compassion. I would like adoptees to know
that it's not their fault that if they're struggling with
taking care of their body or understanding how to eat or how
to move, that there are so many factors that have made it that
way. And that the things that we that
(26:13):
we do with food and with exercise help us survive and
help us cope with difficult situations, sensations and
feelings. And it's wise.
It's a wise survival skill. And it's brave to realize that
maybe you need help and you needsupport.
(26:33):
And luckily, there are so many adoptees in our world who are
here to help support and heal and get you, get you where you
want to go. I want you to know that it gets
better and that there are there,there is help if you, if you, if
you look for it, you know that there are those of us out there
(26:55):
that are, that are here to connect with you to be life
lines. I want them to know that they
can reach out to me at any time.I, I, I would tell people, I
think of me as a resource and a,and a, and a connection point.
I people e-mail me all the time and they're like, Hey, and then,
you know, we either have these long e-mail conversations or we
(27:16):
get on Zoom and they're like, can we connect, you know?
And, and yeah. And I, I want adoptees to know
that wherever you are, it's OK. And that if you're feeling
really lost or really confused or like there isn't any hope,
(27:38):
please reach out. Yeah, because there's lots of us
here in this community that are here to to hold you.
What do you want? Adoptees that might be
struggling with their relationships with either their
birth mother or adoptive mother,What would you want them to
know? It starts with, it starts with
(27:59):
us first starts with us and the connection with ourselves.
Because then we, if we really dothat work, we realise that we
came from somewhere and we can, if we really do that work,
we're, we're within ourselves doing this work, not outside
where all of this practical stuff happens.
(28:22):
And that that what was happeningaround us when we didn't
remember. I would want adoptees to be
looking at their own story from within themselves because for me
that direct connection with my birth mother that way led me to
her story, her story from there,from we were together, we were
(28:53):
one. And then the realisation that we
were both damaged by this. Yeah.
Because then that's led me on tolooking into her childhood like
(29:16):
it was in the war days. It was in this, this just
considering what was going on then just connected me more to
and also the same with my, my adoptive mum.
You know, my adoptive mum didn'treally know how to be emotional
(29:37):
because she was never brought upthat way.
And the reason she wanted lots of children around and she
wanted to do good for so many children was because her dad, my
granddad, used to lock her up under the stairs on her own when
she was 4-5 years old. And she was petrified.
She never wanted a child to go through that.
(29:58):
Wow. So as much as I was, you know,
angry and how could you adopt meand all of this it it it really
does help to to go within and look at our ourselves first
primarily and then our stories, our birth stories, all of them.
(30:22):
I think they need to know they're not alone.
This is a really complexed, nuanced way of being in the
world and way of being family topeople.
And you're not alone. There are other people out
there. And to know that there are
resources, there's people, there's books, there's groups
(30:43):
and organizations that can help you walk through this journey.
I'm just, I'm always so amazed at the people who say I don't
know anybody like me and I'm like, well, let's help you find
them. I try and connect with them.
Not alone. That thing I found out once I
(31:04):
started, you know, going to events and talking to people,
you know, been on a couple podcasts.
When I went to Tucson, I, you know, Aunt Diane told me to
submit for the Independent Author Award.
I never even knew about it. I submitted, went, worked out
well. And there was another adopter
who's accepted Emma Stevens. And so I got to know Emma and
(31:26):
Emma's amazing, and her books are.
Amazing and. Just, you know, and then at the
top, the authors, there were so many people, Tony and Jen and
Paul and all these people and, and, and Angie and there's so
many great people. And just the more people you get
to know, it feels like you're alone, but you're not.
(31:48):
And don't be afraid because the things like you were just saying
right hand, the things you're afraid to admit you, you think
other people are thinking about too.
What message would you convey toadoptive parents that might be
thinking about or potential adoptive parents that are
considering adoption? So I mean, I think that what I
(32:11):
say is this is maternal separation is trauma.
And when you commodify a child by using a tool like adoption to
acquire them, which erases theiridentity is essentially it's a
an industry that is delivering aproduct to a market, you
compound that trauma potentially.
(32:31):
So I mean, these are all the, the trauma is real, the
manifestations are potential, the outcomes our potential, but
the potentials are high and terrible.
And no one really seems to thinkabout that.
And part of the reason that you don't find large cohorts of
unhappy adult adoptees is because they don't exist, right?
(32:53):
They end their lives. If you look at the data for
maternal separation trauma, adoptive people who go through
maternal separation trauma contemplate suicide four times
more than people who don't. There's different studies that
say 6. There's some that say 2, but 4
is pretty consistent. And people don't really think
(33:13):
about what that means. But if you look at statistics,
like during the pandemic, 12% ofkids between the ages of 14 and
24 are contemplated suicide. And what that means is that in
that same age range, the adoptees, I mean, sure, there's
variances. It's not at 1:00 to 1:00, right?
But that means 52% of those kidscontemplated suicide, 52% of a
(33:35):
population considering taking their life sounds just terrible
to me. And if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong
and it's only 35% of a population, right, it's still
just horrible. Like, and they're young, right?
And the problem is, is that there's that age band where it
happens and, and it still keeps happening, right?
But there's is it, it's, you know, sure that it does go down
(33:58):
to 30% or whatever, but in the end there's fewer adoptees to
ask the questions to. I want adoptees to know that no
matter where you are in life, your mother has a hole in her
heart because you're not there. There is not a single mother
that does not have her child in her care that does not think
(34:19):
about that child. I mean, until you can prove me
wrong, there's not a mom that hasn't thought about that child.
So that adoptee needs to know. Even because I was removed from
my mother, my mother thought about me.
My birthday always came across her heart on my birthday because
that day was so ingrained in herhead.
You were always loved. You were always thought about,
(34:41):
no matter what your situation was.
That got you to the point that you are.
You were always thought about. There's not always a way out,
but until your mother can come and care for you again, you need
to think of yourself and take care of yourself because nobody
else is going to. So pick yourself up.
(35:01):
It's going to be OK. You will find your mom that that
primal instinct will always come.
It's like 2 strings that always end up meeting in the middle.
It's always there. Keep going because you will find
her eventually. What would you like struggling
adoptees to know? That you belong, that you're
(35:23):
worthy, that you're loved. And you might not have people in
your current vicinity that treatyou that way, but there are a
community of, of adoptees that do love you and will love you
(35:44):
and will accept you and where you do belong.
And I want them to know that they're not alone and they don't
have to do this thing alone. And I also want them to know
that wherever they're at in their adoptee journey, whether
(36:05):
they have come out of the fog and they say that in quotation
marks, I whether they, you know,are totally comfortable and
happy with their adoption experience or whether they are
raging mad about their adoption experience, that wherever you're
(36:25):
at, that's OK. And it's, it's all part of your,
it's all part of your journey. It's all part of your journey.
I, I really, I really, and I saythat because I had a really hard
time when I started to, to meet other adoptees.
And I would see some of them, you know, hating their
(36:47):
biological parents or hating their adoptive parents.
And I thought, Oh my gosh, what's wrong with me?
Should I, should I hate my adoptive parents?
Should I be more angry about this?
You know, yeah. And, and I, I really had to, to
accept that. No, like everybody really is
just on their own journey. And it's OK.
(37:11):
It's real, what you're feeling. It's not made-up.
It's not your fault. It's in your.
It's in your DNA. And there's hope.
I think I can say it's worth it.Even with rejection, it's worth
it. And when you get to that place,
(37:34):
when you're tired and you reallywant answers and you want to
stop this facade of you and findand start, start the work of
you, it's worth it. Yeah, even though it's hard.
I would like to them to know that there are a lot of people
out there like them. I would like for them to join
(37:59):
some of the support groups because that's been extremely
helpful. Talk to people like you.
If you're an adoptee that cannotfind your family, read stories
about people that did because there's a lot of stories that
people who went to great lengthsto find their family and now
wish they hadn't you. You may not like what you find
(38:22):
and if you do find if you are one, then you have these
options. Find out what other people have
done to find their families and,you know, follow some of their
examples and some of their leads.
What do you want your adoptive daughter to know that I'm more
(38:45):
educated now than I was or beginning with beginning with my
my research phase of our relationship and in in the
beginning, you know, I was not as prepared as I should have
been. Is, is, is my personal view and
that now I'm I'm I'm dedicated to helping others be more
(39:07):
prepared so that they can make the most of their younger their
all their years together insteadof having regrets later on.
So what would you like people toknow about your experience?
And it could be anything about your adoption experience that
you just want the average personto know that they might not know
(39:30):
once. I want people to know that
adoptees do not have the same rights as anyone else.
Like we were talking about we, there are things that we're just
not allowed to do. And then if we do them, it's a
great expense to us, like finding, reaching out to family.
Not everyone can do that. We have to go through the DNA
(39:53):
hoops and things like that. So when we're saying, you know
that we're angry. That is righteous anger because
we don't have the same rights, and that anger is the absolute
normal feeling for what we have.So if you could say something to
your daughter, what would you want her to know?
(40:16):
I love her and she should be here with me, yeah.
Yeah. All right.
I'm going to cry. That's OK.
What advice would you give adopted parents?
Adoptive parents, I really thinkfor everybody, it's just to like
do the research. Like it's, it's not about like
(40:41):
it is actually OK for people to want to have something and not
ever get it. It's OK for you to want to have
children but never be able to have children.
And I think some people just need to accept that you're
(41:02):
you're you may not ever be a mom, you may not ever be a dad.
You could be a really great aunt, uncle support system for
somebody else if you're not willing to put the needs of the
child first. So if you want to adopt and you
can and you're doing that for the right reasons, you're
(41:23):
actually doing that to provide asafe, healthy home for a child
who would not have had that otherwise.
I think that that's really great.
I but I also think that just because we want something, I
mean, I'd love to be really skinny, but unless I have
surgery or just stop eating or exercise, there's sacrifices I
(41:46):
have to make to get that, you know?
And so, yeah, I think that's a big thing that I, I just think
it's really, really important for us to remember and to know
this child, like came from somewhere.
And I would say they shouldn't have a job.
Your babies shouldn't have a job.
(42:07):
As soon as they're, they come into the family, you know, they
shouldn't be a Band-Aid. Yeah.
In essence, what would you like struggling, either foster
parents or potential adoptive parents to know?
The main thing I, I would love everyone to know is just get
informed again, if something doesn't feel right, if some, if,
(42:30):
if you need help, it's OK to askfor help.
It's OK to reach out. It's OK to get educated.
It's like there is no right or wrong way of doing things like
it, it, it's all, this is all part of life lessons.
We're going to mess up. We're not going to be perfect.
I've made my, I have made so many mistakes along this
(42:52):
journey, but the thing that has really helped me is knowing that
I have a support system. So to really ask for help and
really look for your support system, look for people who are
going to support you and have your bag and, and people who are
going to call you out and not, not not people who are going to
(43:13):
sugarcoat and be like, Oh, you're doing just fine.
Like call like have those friends who are going to say,
hey, that was that OK, And be like, oh shit, you're right.
That was that OK. And really like find that
because children are teachers, biologically or not, children
(43:34):
are teachers. Children are mirrors.
They are going to mirror everything, the things that we
don't like to the things that welove.
They're that's what they're, that's what they're going to do.
And if we find ways to really look at that mirror and let find
the lessons, but we can't find those lessons alone.
(43:55):
Like we need support. We need people, we need a
village. I have never really understood
the gravity of that term or thatphrase of it takes a village to
raise a child. No, it takes a whole freaking
city. Like it takes more than it takes
every single person to do their part to raise a child because
they that is our next generation.
(44:17):
So don't do it alone. Find support, find people, ask
for help because that's, I mean,that's all we need to do.
We don't need to figure these things out on our own.
Well, what advice would you givea birth mother that went through
a similar thing, you know, maybefound out that their child had
already passed or passed after they met them?
(44:40):
What kind of support helped you?What helped you get through it?
I want them to know that once you start talking and writing
about it just in a journal, justwrite it.
It's it's not something to hold within you, it's something to
find someone to a support. Group A grieving group.
(45:02):
I was fortunate to know women who are psychologists because I
truly believe the more we talk, the more we help each other.
So many birth mothers I found too, even some that I knew at
the home. Still cannot talk about it.
They cannot talk about being that in that experience or
(45:24):
giving up a child. You're ashamed of yourself even
when you are OK with the adoption.
I've talked. To so many of them, I know we do
have issues that will never go away.
A lot of my, A lot of my. I guess you got to call it shame
(45:44):
still lives within me. So, you know, there's you're
probably right. You're probably right.
So in closing, what would you like struggling adoptive parents
to know? Maybe that they're struggling
with maybe the birth mother or just raising their adoptive
child. What would you like them to
know? You guys are not alone.
(46:06):
I think there's a lot of us, youknow, out there.
And actually, you know, when youare talking, asking me if I was
part of the community, I was, I was going to look around to see
if there was no other parents like the adopted parents who
have issue, you know, with the their birth mother and see, you
know, what did you do guys? You know why?
What did you do? Did you talk to a mediator?
(46:27):
Did moderator? Did you contact a lawyer?
You know what's going on becausesometime I think that we need a
break and sometime I think, you know, it might even be better
for her. Maybe she can talk to her when
she when she can respond to her.And I'll try and be odd enough
to respond to her because right next to them.
So yeah, just know you're not alone.
(46:51):
There's a lot of of us out therestruggling a little bit, but
it's all worth it. It's all worth it.
I'm happy everyday when I see. Her I'm happy everyday so.
She's really part of family. What would you want struggling
adoptive parents to know? Well, I would definitely want
them to know that there really is hope and it's probably not
(47:14):
more experts giving you another parenting strategy.
I, I, I feel so confident that if, you know, if you're
struggling with behaviors, that working with a coach can really
shift that around for you. But it can't just be any coach.
(47:34):
I know I've heard some other, I've, I've heard parents talk
about, well, you know, the county gave me a coach, but it
was just somebody giving me parenting strategies, not
helping me to show up apparently.
So it, it doesn't matter the kind of coach and, and I really
feel strongly that it should be on somebody who understands what
(47:54):
you're going through because, because it isn't easy when you
when your emotions are wrapped up and what you're trying to
work through, it isn't easy. So, so I would, you know, I hope
that your listeners leave this conversation and all of your
your episodes, but leave feelinglike there is hope and it might
(48:18):
take just doing things a little bit differently than you've done
that before. What advice do you have for
those thinking about adoption and what questions would you say
they should be asking themselvesbefore they adopt?
Number one advice, you have to be listening to adoptees, like
(48:38):
by listening to this podcast, I think that you are taking a good
first step by listening to adoptees and listening to like
some of the core issues around adoption.
Because it's not something that you can just dismiss or just,
you know, expect that won't happen to you or expect that
that's not going to be your experience because it most
likely will. And you also need to, you need
(49:02):
to be centering their voices in all of this because that's what
actually matters. I mean, I, I think that there
are so many amazing adoptees on Instagram or, you know, on
social media or have, that have podcasts that are really sharing
a lot of the hard topics that you need to be wrestling with
before you're going through this.
Because it's kind of like the tough love that I would have to
(49:26):
give to the adoptive parents that I worked with.
You have to, you have to be ready to be a parent.
You can't, this isn't something that you can just like hope that
some of the stuff resolves laterdown down the road or like, you
know, hope that you find some friends that are part of your
child's culture or hope that you, you know, you, you have to,
(49:46):
you have to put in the work now because it's not when you become
a parent, it gets a whole lot harder to make friends.
It gets a whole lot harder to read some of these books, gets a
whole lot harder to go to therapy.
And so it's like, do the work now and, and listen to those
voices. And, you know, I think that
that's that's the most importantthing.
What would you like struggling adoptees and others in the
(50:09):
adoption triad to know? I think what I love people to
take away from this is being taking responsibility for your
experience and then playing withthe idea of what is.
What is you being a Liberator inyour life look like?
(50:32):
How does that add like having that frequency of liberation?
What does that feeling look like?
Add that into your world. What would you like struggling
adoptive parents to know? Oh, I think the number one thing
(50:55):
I would like struggling adoptiveparents to know is that you're
doing a great job. And I say this because when I
think of struggle, there's so many different ways that we
struggle on this journey. And as we struggle, at least for
me, in the back of my mind, I'm like, am I doing the right
(51:16):
thing? But I'm not his birth mom.
Is this OK? Am I doing all these things the
right way and things like that? But I'm like, OK, this imposter
syndrome needs to go away and I need to realize that hey, I, I'm
doing a great job. We're doing a great job as
parents. We're doing what we think is
(51:38):
right. But the same time there are
resources out there if we reallyneed them.
Like mentioned, you can go see atherapist.
You could do family therapy, individual therapy for your
child if needed. Speaking to doctors, one of the
things I really want to do for my son is get him genetically
tested. Just so we know, OK, here are
(51:59):
all the things that could happenmoving forward so that we can
help and be on top of it if it comes up.
It may not come up, but it's also going to be great for him
when he gets older and has to goto doctor's appointments and
fill out all this paperwork to be able to know, OK, yes, I have
a family history of this, a family history of that.
(52:19):
So the things I would say is youare a great parent and you're
doing the best thing you you know how to do currently, but
also try and tap into different resources that are out there to
be able to help you in the areasthat you are struggling with.
What do you want other adoptees that might be struggling with
(52:41):
attempting to end their life? What do you want them to know?
Yeah, from, from my heart, like from somebody.
Lot of people could say they getit, but they don't.
And I get it. I I need you to love you.
(53:03):
I need, I need you to love you in a way that that when you was
in love, it, it, it doesn't define you.
And when you aren't loved and when you aren't appreciated, it
doesn't define you and you aren't triggered.
I mean, I need you to love yourself in a way that it
doesn't matter who didn't love you when they didn't love you.
You got to love yourself becauseyou're not defined by who didn't
(53:29):
love you, who gave you up, who didn't want you, who didn't see
that your light. You only define for the moments
that you love you in them. I hate it's got to be a you
moment. I I've had to understand this
about me. It's got to be you.
You got to love you. You got to love you.
(53:49):
No warranty. We got this thing in California,
we buy a car as is. No warranty.
That means you can't take that car back.
You cannot take you back. You got to love you.
All flaws, however you were created, whatever color you are,
however your hair looks, whatever your body size is, you
got to love you. You got to love you like you got
(54:10):
to start there, because as long as you don't love you, you will
always be defined by somebody else's decision, and that
decision doesn't define you. I've lived in it for years.
I've lived in that shadow, trying to understand why for
years. She doesn't define me.
He didn't define me. It didn't define me.
(54:33):
I'm only defined by what I say. I'm building this life.
I've made a lot of decisions because I was hurt.
And I know you've made a lot of decisions because you've been
hurt, you've been misunderstood.But today is your chance to get
better. You know, today is your chance
to accept who you are. And you could do it right now in
(54:55):
this moment. And you don't need validation
from anything or anybody. And I love you, and I mean that.
Thank you for joining us for this powerful episode of Mind
Your Own Karma, The Adoption Chronicles.
The voices you've heard today remind all of us of the shared
(55:16):
humanity within the adoption journey and community, proof
that understanding and healing are possible no matter where you
are in the process. If today's stories resonated
with you, please share this episode and continue the
conversation. If anyone that you saw or heard
(55:38):
today resonated with you personally, please don't
hesitate to reach out to them. Many of them have written books
or counselors or coaches or havecourses to help adoptees in so
many ways that I can't even list.
Reach out to them and see what they have to offer.
(55:59):
Until next time, remember your story matters, your voice
matters, and together we are rewriting what it means to
belong. In closing, as always, take what
you need and leave what you don't.
And always remember to mind yourown karma.
(56:19):
I'll see you next time. This podcast is created for
educational purposes by the telling of adoption experiences.
The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the
host or Mind Your Own Karma.
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