November 7, 2025 • 48 mins
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The boundary between conventional and naturopathic medicine isn't as rigid as most people think—and Dr. Paul Dabney's remarkable journey proves it. After spending 14 years at the FDA and conducting antimicrobial resistance research for the CDC, Dr. Dabney found himself drawn to natural healing approaches that complemented his scientific background. His transition began when investigating the antimicrobial properties of green and black tea, opening his eyes to alternative treatment pathways that conventional medicine often overlooks.
Dr. Dabney brings a wealth of knowledge to complex conditions that frequently puzzle mainstream healthcare providers. His work with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS) showcases how carefully applied natural interventions can be life-changing. When conventional doctors told one patient to "get her affairs in or
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, how are you?
This is Damaris Maria Grossmanand this is the Mindfully
Integrative Show, and today wehave an amazing guest, dr Paul
Dabney.
He is a naturopathic and has anarray of history in the health
industry and worked for the FDACDC.
I'm hearing, and many of thethings that got him into being a
little bit more and I'd say,integrative, or a naturopath or
(00:23):
a way of thinking.
So I can't wait for you guys tomeet him and to learn more
about him, and his informationwill be available for you soon.
So, hey, thanks so much, drPaul.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Doing very well.
Thanks for having me.
I really was looking forward tobeing on your podcast.
You have an offer your viewersa lot of information, and I
would hopefully be able tocontribute to that.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean it's a little vast, butI felt like I kind of wanted to
just touch base on differentways of thinking about health.
So, and just you know,highlighting stories of
different you know individuals,especially like yourself, so
let's chat more.
I mean, we were talking alittle bit right before recorded
and and I really want them tounderstand, kind of where you
kind of came to being anaturopath and kind of where you
(01:08):
were discussing with me prior.
So can you go into that?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
yeah, my, my background is is very is wide
out, as wide open.
I didn't start off as a natural, as you know, as a naturopathic
physician.
It started off with just veryconventional science.
My, my background is, you know,I have a bachelor's degree in
microbiology and that's how itkind of started out.
I worked for FDA for like 14years, did research for CDC
(01:35):
dealing with antimicrobialresistance, basically dealing
with bacteria of the gut,enteric bacteria, the enteric
bacteria, looking at that.
But the actual start in lookingat naturopathic medicine
actually started when my scienceadvisor got sick.
He was in Asia, out in themiddle of nowhere and he got
(01:57):
really sick.
So he was actually treated bynatural medicine and when he got
back he brought back this greentea and black tea.
He said well, I need for you tolook at this and see if there's
any antimicrobial properties inthe green and black tea.
So I did some investigation,started doing the research on it
(02:18):
and actually found out that itdid have a lot of good qualities
as far as reducing the effectsof different forms of bacteria,
primary bacteria of the gut.
I took that research toMichigan State where I did
continue the research inantimicrobial resistance and put
it aside.
(02:38):
As far as what I did at FDA tostart the research with green
tea and black tea, I put itaside until I ran across more
research I was doing but dealingwith animals and looking at
antimicrobial resistance inanimals from the perspective of
veterinary medicine.
That's what I did at MichiganState and I started seeing the
(03:00):
same thing.
What are we doing here?
Why are we having thesebacteria that are resistant
coming from animals to humans orhumans to animals, that effect?
So I started thinking aboutwhat I can do to kind of help.
So I said, in order to make anychange, I decided maybe I
(03:21):
should go into naturopathicmedicine.
So once my wife finished medicalschool at Michigan State, I
applied for a naturopathicmedical school in Arizona, which
I spent some time doing.
That that's how I got startedinto naturopathic medicine.
But actuality, it started offmuch younger.
My mother, her grandfather, wasa Native American medicine man
(03:47):
and she kind of did a lot ofdifferent things herbal things
when we were kids and as a kidyou didn't really appreciate it,
you know.
You kind of thought it was badand it was terrible to take.
But I started looking at someof the different things that she
was doing.
The wounds healed faster, youknow, even though it tasted bad,
your wounds healed faster andwe were very rarely sick.
And I started taking thinkingabout these different properties
(04:10):
and stuff and one to startutilize them into my practice
many, many years later, manyyears later.
So that's pretty much how thatstarted, you know, and involved
with naturopathic medicine.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So, so, like, well, gut health, but I mean it's from
your, since you were young andyou were getting like these,
like funky teas or probablythese for like the wounds, and
you're probably like what isthis?
What is this?
What am I doing as a kid?
But now you're realizing howeffective, right.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
As a kid you didn't appreciate what what she was
doing, even though I think I wasvery observant.
But I noticed that things werea little bit different,
especially when we were veryrarely sick.
But you know, it was somethingI really wanted to investigate
and I was kind of wondering.
(04:59):
People always wonder how do youfit in, because your background
is so conventional andnaturopathic medicine is a
little bit different, and I waslike it was based on a need.
I wanted to do something thatwas a little bit different and
not really taking theconventional route, even though
I had an opportunity to do so.
(05:19):
It was a choice that I made.
I thought I could make a biggerdifference from looking at it
from a naturopathic perspective,did you?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
get any pushback from actually even just your family,
being that your wife'sconventional medicine.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
In actuality my wife.
She's an OBGYN and she has beenvery supportive with this
venture.
And she has been verysupportive, you know, with this
venture.
As a matter of fact.
Long story short with this isthat when she applied for
residency she knew that I wantedto go to Arizona.
So she kind of tailored herself.
She kind of just basicallydownplayed a lot of different
(05:59):
things and basically focused herattention to Arizona so I can
get that opportunity.
So she's been very supportivewith that.
But a lot of her patients whowere in Arizona were looking for
alternative medicine approachesand she didn't know them and
she would ask me to look into itand do some research and then
provide information for herpatients.
(06:20):
Even today we work together.
She's in practice as an OB OBGYNhere in Decatur and there's
always a demand.
Women want other, differentthings to handle their problems.
So we consult a lot.
She consults me and she takesthe lead on handling her
patients, lead on handling herpatients.
(06:41):
But that's how I got involvedwith women's health is through
her.
But as far as my immediatefamily, they were supportive.
My mom was definitely pleased.
Actually she became my patient.
But we lost her to COVID aboutthree years ago.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But she was always very happy.
She goes well.
I guess I did something.
I'm so sorry.
And do blend together very well, and then there's some times
that they don't, and that's whatyou have to.
People have to understand thatyou have to.
There's a place for everythingand it's also a blending of
different things for differentdiseases and things like that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So, in reference because I mean you're very big
on gut health and also women'shealth, Most of your clients now
that you see are more in alsowomen's health.
Most of your clients now thatyou see are more in the women's
health sector or inperimenopause, menopause area,
or you do have a variety ofpatients.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
There's a variety.
There's a variety.
I see more women than men,because most men don't get it.
I think you see that a lot.
If I deal with just womenwhether it's women's health or
dealing with just differentthings high blood pressure,
(08:14):
diabetes I see more women thatare coming to me and I have to
come up with solutions orworking with their doctors to
blend conventional medicine withalternative medicine or
naturopathic medicine.
So for most people, I see morewomen than men.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, my question for you is because I feel like I
have this argument not reallyargument I'm passionate about,
say integrating, just because,in the sense of like, I just
feel like the conversation needsinstead of this like butting
heads.
Do you get a pretty goodresponse from some of their
primaries or their when you'resaying, hey, let's do this,
let's talk about or has it beennegated it?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
depends on who I'm dealing with.
Some of the times the doctorswill listen.
For the most part, sometimesthey don't know me, so I have to
introduce myself, you know, tothem or through their patients.
I tell my patients you stillhave a primary care doctor.
(09:16):
I'm kind of like a consultant.
You know I really want to helpyou out, but I still have to go
through your doctor.
So once I sit down with them andtalk to them, some of them are
a little bit open.
Some of them says, well, Idon't really want to do this.
I'm thinking that there may besome interactions.
I says, well, what we can do iswhile they're in a hospital you
(09:38):
do your thing, but when they'reout, maybe we collaborate and
do it.
So once you kind of open thatfield up and not being combative
with them, because some peopleare like, well, why are you not
going on with this?
I can't, because your doctor'sstill in charge.
I can't get involved with that.
But once I kind of get themkind of cleared up, most of the
(10:01):
time they're pretty open,especially if they're at a wit's
end.
I do a lot of research.
I love looking into medicaloddities and if they can't
figure it out, I says, well,maybe we can get together and
try to figure it out, so thatusually works.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
What has been something that's been different
or like out of the ordinary,that you may have seen, that
people might not have or thatyou're like oh, that comes up
that most people don't so one ofthe things that there was a
there was a patient of mine whohad gone.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
She's a medical doctor and she had just retired
and she had gone to the beachwith her family and somehow she
got something stuck in her footand she had went into this.
I mean it was really bad.
Her wound got infected, she,she was really really bad, her
blood pressure dropped, I meanall these different things had
(10:58):
happened to her and the doctorswould run all these tests.
They couldn't't find anythingreally major.
There was an infection, butthey didn't really know what it
was.
But the symptoms were reallylife-threatening and once they
got it under control because westill don't know what this is
she would have these flare-ups,for temperature would go up, she
would have problems breathingand I was like, what is this?
(11:21):
So a friend of mine, who was afriend of his, he contacted me,
which I contacted her.
I says, well, can you help her?
I'm like, well, let's see.
So I went through the symptom,looked through her records, did
all this other stuff.
So I'm like I can't reallydon't know what this is.
And so I started thinking aboutsome of the symptoms I had seen
in the past and one of thethings I thought when made would
(11:46):
have been would be mast cellactivation.
Okay, so mast cell activation.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Talk to everybody about that.
Oh, okay, so mast cell.
People don't know.
Most people around here justhave no idea about medicine and
they're just Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
So mast cells are cells that are within is part of
your immune system, and theystimulate the immune system.
They're okay when they don'tget overstimulated but due to
infections or allergies orallergens, food sensitivities, I
mean a lot of different thingswill stimulate them to the point
(12:20):
where they get really, reallybad.
So one of the big things is areally bad histamine response.
They secrete a lot of differentchemicals.
One of them is histamines, andthat can really really take a
big, big toll, you know, on aperson's body and that was what
I thought she may have had.
And the doctor's like youbetter get your affairs in order
(12:43):
.
That's how bad it was, becausethey didn't know what it was.
Oh, wow, so well, what I can do.
If you really want to do thiswith me, why don't you just take
Benadryl?
She was like I got a majorhealth problem.
She wanted to give me somethingwith Benadryl I think you have
a mast cell activation and shetook it and within a, within a
(13:03):
couple days, all of her symptomsdisappeared oh, the, just a
benadryl.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I've okay, I've heard just benadryl, multiple
different types of treatmentsfor mast cells.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So you just said, right, one of the people
basically I chose this out ofactive desperation because her
health was really, really badand she was just so bad.
But I just felt that's what itwas.
All of her labs looked like madcell but the doctors just
didn't agree with it.
Even though she's a physician,she was like I've heard of it.
(13:32):
I said talk to your doctor.
The doctor goes well, we're not.
I've never heard of it, can you?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
talk a little bit more in detail on this, because
I really think there's a lot ofback andand-forth research on it
or back-and-forth conversationsof it doesn't exist.
It does exist and you talkedabout it.
I think that, and then alsowhat the lab in there?
I mean, I think it's a littleinteresting.
I think people should at leastget a touch on it so it doesn't
sound like boring, right?
I think it is real and we knowyou and I can do that.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But I just think that the controversial begins when a
lot of doctors don't believethat it exists because there's
there's research in it.
There's actually, you know,there's funding for it, but some
doctors never heard of it sothey don't get into it and a lot
of it happens due to neglect,starting from the time the
samples are collected.
Due to neglect, starting fromthe time the samples are
collected.
Okay, when you're taking thesesamples from the person, the
(14:32):
blood and the test forhistamines, prostaglandins,
tryptase is a big one.
They don't chill it, they don'tput it on ice and by the time
it gets to the lab to have itanalyzed, those enzymes are
temperature sensitive andthey're not there or they're
there in small amounts.
Another thing is that they weresaying that you've got to catch
(14:53):
the.
The mast cells are active.
That's when you really starthave to do the blood tests to
really get it in this fullownforce.
If you start treating it, theresponse goes down and you're
not going to get.
Your lab results are not goingto be as high as they should be.
So that's when they're testedand chilling.
It is the critical part.
(15:15):
Okay, okay, yeah.
And that's why people don't saythat it doesn't exist, because
they can have all the symptomsfor it and then when they test
it, the levels are not as highas they should have been because
they didn't catch it at itsearliest point or they didn't
cool it down before testing, andthose are the critical points.
So she had talked to her doctorwhich is actually who was a
(15:41):
friend of hers, and he was likeI don't understand what he did.
And now you're well, you'rewalking around you, you were, we
thought you were going to loseyou.
I'm like is something as simpleas Benadryl?
I said no, it's not as simpleas Benadryl.
It's looking at the symptoms,it's looking at the symptoms.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, no, but you went into the.
Like I said, I've heard othertreatments, so Benadryl.
Benadryl is one of the I use.
You know some of the H2.
So can you explain to me whichones you've used and why just?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Benadryl.
Well, I used Benadryl out ofact of desperation.
She was really really sick andthat's what she had on her shelf
, got it.
She agreed to do it because shesays I'm not sure how bad, I
know this is really bad.
I says well, you've gone to thedoctor.
They ran all these tests.
(16:35):
We still, we still need to kindof look into it.
So she agreed to do it andthat's how I did it.
But normally what I normally dois I look at the symptom,
naturally, and since histamineis on the high end most of the
times, I usually will givethere's something that's called
DAO it's an enzyme and thatactually degrades or breaks down
(17:00):
the histamines High amounts ofB6, since DAO is the enzyme that
degrades histamines.
A lot of the times people areB6 deficient and I usually give
the active form of B6, which isP5P, which is the active form.
And you really should give theactive form of B6, which is P5P,
which is the active form, andyou really should give the
(17:20):
active form because it'sbiologically active.
It doesn't have to be activatedbecause regular B6 has to be
activated.
You don't want to really waitaround on that.
Oh, there's another one thatactually works.
Well, I found out thatresveratrol works very well.
I found that out by accident.
(17:42):
I work with sickle cell patientsand a lot of the times with
sickle cell they have a lot oftime not all of them, but a lot
of their crises are stimulatedby mast cell activation, are
stimulated by mast cellactivation.
Trying to get doctors to lookinto that, because they keep
having this pain, this crisisand stuff that come along with
(18:02):
it.
A lot of the time theirtryptase levels are really
really high and the tryptasestimulates pain, which is really
painful.
It also triggers a lot of otherbiological process that can
mimic mast cell activation.
Oh, it's breakdown of bone,breaking down of bone, and pain
(18:26):
as well as inflammation thatgoes along with that.
So those are different thingsthat I look at.
All this quercetin can actuallydrop.
That works very, very well atdropping those mast cells
activation, the symptoms, aswell as calming the mast cells
down.
(18:46):
The problem is, once you getsensitized or they're
oversensitive, it doesn't takemuch to bring this thing back.
So that's why you have to kindof remove the allergens.
If you know the sources,whether it's food or
environmental, being exposed toinfections, you know a lot of
(19:06):
different infections.
So basically it's the part ofyour immune system that gets
overstimulated.
That's pretty much what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
No, I mean, I think it's really interesting because
I think I mean I, you know, Idefinitely read about it and
worked with a little bit with it, but I think you had to do
Benadryl as a quick fix becauseit was like, okay, but remember,
you still had to, you still hadto work about the underlying
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
The mast cells secrete.
You know, like there's thosefour that I mentioned but
there's a lot more, but thehistamines are on a high end.
So you want to kind of look atthat as a way to kind of
controlling the histamines.
You know their response.
As far as what the person'sactually dealing with, they do
(19:51):
have a lot of allergy responsedue to the histamines, but it's
also the tryptase which isbasically the pain.
There's also substance P.
I'm not sure if you've heard ofthat Substance P.
The P stands for pain.
So these mast cells secretethese chemicals that actually
induce pain.
(20:12):
So there's a lot of things thatcontrol the pain For pain, the
histamine response, which is theallergy response, breaking down
of bone, and that's usuallylong-term.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I think you have a lot of chronically ill patients.
Correct, correct, correct.
Yeah, but you've been managingthem pretty well.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, so they're masking them and the problems
get worse because they're notreally addressing them.
What I started looking at forsickle cell patients is a lot of
them start breaking down bone.
They'll start losing bone.
It's not about the nutrientsthat are being blocked due to
the sickling effect of the cells.
It's also due to a lot of timesthe mast cells are being
(20:57):
activated and that's neveraddressed.
They're looking at sickle cellitself but not looking at the
complications that could happenthereafter.
So that's when I looked atresveratrol.
It doesn't work for everybody,but when you're having a lot of
pain, you're looking at a lot ofdifferent things for them to
(21:18):
help stop it and trying toreduce the pain medications,
like opioids, that they givethem.
Next thing you know you keepdoing it.
Next thing you know they'readdicted.
There's studies that show thatresveratrol dampens the pain and
reduces the effects of being onthat pain medication, so it
reduces the effect of you beinghooked on opioids.
(21:42):
Oh, that's excellent.
I've been trying to.
I've been trying to.
I've written several articlesto Sickle Cell Magazine.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I, you know, I'm trying to let people know.
Yeah, they're not alwayswilling to listen, right?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
They don't want to listen or they're listening but
they're not responding back tome.
So the patients that I do have,I want to, you know, put them
on it, you know.
But like I try to cover a lotof different areas in my
practice with the patients thatI do see, that's really.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I mean the, I mean sickle cell, just in general, is
a pretty extensive area.
What would you like to discuss,either client-wise,
patient-wise or something beforeyou know you have some more
time.
If you have another you knowantidote that you'd like to give
us for the night or the day.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, there's a couple.
Well, other than the sicklecell, excuse me, other than the
sickle cell issue and the onewith the histamine issue, there
was another one looking atulcerative colitis.
I did what I did with a lot ofGI issues, people who have
ulcerative colitis.
It's naturally a really, reallybad case of inflammation that
(22:51):
predominantly, you know, in thecolon, and I tell people
inflammation spreads.
That predominantly, you know,in the colon, and I tell people
inflammation spreads, it doesn'tjust stay in one spot and
they're more prone to it goingfrom the colon and going up into
the small intestines.
So there was a case that I hadworked on where the person was
(23:12):
basically a doctor and thisperson had could not really do
their job because of the, thediarrhea that they were having
all the time and once it startsyou can't control it and it, you
know, it's really really bad.
So they've been putting him on,did a colonoscopy, they found
(23:32):
it.
That is really really severe.
They put, put the person on alot of different biologics,
biological drugs that controlthe immune system, to dampen the
immune system so the body canheal.
That didn't work.
So the patient came to me andsays look, I haven't been on
vacation in years.
(23:53):
I'm a surgeon, I can't affordto be having accidents on myself
.
You know it's like, okay,you're still taking the
medications.
Well, yeah, I says well, we cantalk to your doctor about
lowering the medications andI'll be working with you to
control the inflammation as wellas the healing process.
(24:16):
So what I did was start lookingat different things that can
help with the inflammation, butone of the things that I worked
with that I think that reallywas very, very beneficial was
two things.
One was collagen.
Collagen is the supportmechanism that all your body
needs, it for support.
(24:37):
You need collagen to supportyour teeth, your muscles, your
tendons, everything.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I have like three cups of it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So you have to have a collagen, because now that you
have these open wounds, thesewounds are basically bleeding.
That's pretty much what it is.
So that was one thing, onething that I thought was the
deal breaker Do you do collagenand omega-3 or just collagen?
It's just collagen, and I dosome other different things for
help with inflammation.
But one of the things that Ithought well, I know that was
(25:08):
very, very beneficial wassomething was called butyrate oh
for the stomach.
Called butyrate, oh for thestomach Well, for the stomach,
but actually for the GI tract.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Okay, so here it is in a nutshell.
Talk to them about it, tellthem a little bit about that,
because I know you said some ofmy GI stuff, but discuss.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, so butyrate is a small chain fatty acid.
Okay, that actually comes fromthe fermentation process of
fiber.
Okay, and that's why it'simportant to have fiber in your
diet, because the bacteria inyour gut take the fiber and
(25:48):
break it down into butyrate.
Okay, so if if a person's gutis working normally, they're
going to be usually probablysold in a butyrate reduced
because the body's trying toutilize this butyrate to help
heal that, that, that ulcercolitis.
So butyrate what it does it.
This is how the beauty of itall it controls the immune
(26:13):
system.
It modulates the immune system,so it controls it.
It also what else does it do?
It lowers the inflammation.
It's very, very good forlowering inflammation so the
body can start healing, and itactually works a lot better with
the biologic.
It actually complements it.
(26:35):
This is where I got.
This is where I, yeah, Ifigured I said there must be a
connection.
So that's when I started kindof falling out, falling, you
know, doing this different,developing a protocol for it.
It took about maybe five monthsin order to, because it was
really really bad, and I askedthe doctor before we started to
(26:56):
be tested for parasites and thedoctor kind of looked at me like
, well why.
I says well, it could be aparalytic infection and says
maybe we could do probiotics.
Doctor was like, no, we're notdoing that.
I was like but you know about,you're a gastroenterologist.
He goes we're not doing that.
I says okay.
(27:16):
I says well, let's do threemonths of this treatment that
you're planning.
If that doesn't work, maybe wecould mix it with what I'm doing
and blend it.
So once she didn't heal, thedoctor was saying can we do this
?
I really want to do it.
So it was an agreement that wehad together and she actually is
done.
Put her ulcer colitis inremission, spent my three years.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I love it.
So the question for youtest-wise what did you do for
your GI test-wise?
Did you use a specific testingor did you just know from
symptoms?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I did not, I did not do any testing.
I was looking for the resultsbecause her GI tract was really
was so messed up and when I gotthe imaging back not the imaging
, imaging, well, it's just thepictures that the, that the
g-gastronomies took I mean itwas really really really badly
(28:11):
inflamed and naturally she'sanemic.
There was a lot of differentthings we had to to kind of look
at.
So I didn't think maybe doingthat I mean, sometimes I do look
for that or ask for it, butthis particular case I didn't.
I didn't do it.
Then I slowly started to add theprobiotics in once the diarrhea
(28:32):
had decreased, because she washaving like 10 to 15 bouts of
diarrhea every day and just notknowing when it was going to
happen.
So she had to cut out hersurgery schedule and she had to
reduce a lot of stuff.
So it took a while to do this,but it's very doable.
(28:54):
It's very doable.
So it's the research behind it.
That's what I like.
I didn't just come up with this.
Well, I kind of did, but I usedthe existing research and find
out what they were doing andfinding out what can be done to
blend with with conventionalmedicine along with, you know,
other alternative approaches.
(29:14):
Even after I presented herdoctor with this information,
they still didn't buy it.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
They didn't right.
They still don't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
They still didn't understand it.
They didn't.
They just well, that's a fluke.
It's like well, it's not afluke, because she was on this
medication that you wereproviding and was not getting
any better.
It was getting worse until weblended this together and it
worked.
It was.
It took a while, but it wasvery much very much.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I can definitely attest to tell you that things
that I either tried on likeclients myself, family members
in some manner of you know, gut,gut rebalancing they do work,
but it could take three to six.
I won't say that I'm an expertlike in the sense of I have seen
autoimmune remission.
Responses Granted, I know thatsome of it there's just maybe
(30:08):
not enough studies, but that'swhy I love having people on like
yourself, because it's like,hey, let's have the conversation
, don't be afraid of like, let'stry something, because if these
are not working, not workingthere's obviously there's Well,
there's also something else thatI did that I didn't mention.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I should have mentioned it.
It's really important isvitamin D.
Vitamin D is underestimated.
I know there are people nowtesting for it because people's
vitamin D levels are low.
But vitamin D does a lot morethan just bones and teeth.
That's what it's touted for,but it does a lot more, and one
of the things that it does dothat I thought was very
(30:46):
beneficial was tightening thegut junction, so if the person
has which I'm pretty sure theperson had leaky gut because of
severe inflammation, and alsomodulating the immune system and
modulating the well, not onlythe immune system, but
modulating how the body respondsin the healing process.
(31:08):
So I did that at high doses.
Now the thing is, what I did waswith that, since she already
had a gut issue and I wasconcerned about her losing,
because her having so muchdiarrhea all the time and when
she's having that, any fluidloss especially, you know,
dealing coming coming from thecolon you have a pretty good
(31:31):
chance of becoming a fat solubledeficiency.
So A, b, e and K were probablyout the window because she was
not absorbing it or she waslosing it in the diarrhea.
So what I did was for that time, for a short period of time
until the gut started to heal Istarted having her use an oral
(31:55):
or under the tongue sublingualvitamin D or a liquid vitamin D.
Or there's something I reallylike is the vitamin D or
multivitamin patch.
That's really effective.
Any person with a GI issue or agut issue should be on either a
sublingual Sometimes you can'tget a sublingual to cover the
whole multi thing but there arevitamin patches, patch aid and
(32:20):
patch MD.
Those are the two that I've usedthat have been very effective.
I like them.
I have nothing to do with them,I am not affiliated with them,
but they do produce a very goodproduct and I I I did use that
because I know that she couldnot hold any of the nutrients
down based on her on her medicalcondition.
(32:41):
That's really so.
I still check in on her.
She's still back.
She's back to work, takingvacation with her family.
Hasn't had any episodes oranything like that.
So it works I love it, I think.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think, I mean, and do you also have a nutritional
component, that you talk to themabout it?
Or are they already there?
Isn't there, definitely?
Or do they?
Or do they know that by thispoint?
When?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
no, no, well once as we started.
Well, one thing is, when theystart having all these bouts of
diarrhea, trying to finddifferent ways to stop diarrhea
is very critical.
So I'm not really, you know,I'm really big on it on the
nutrition point, but I'm reallyjust trying to get their GI
tract under control before I tryanything.
(33:24):
But one of the things that I dowant to tell them to do is that
putting them on a digestiveenzyme and they're like, wow, oh
, I have to track this.
Yeah, I track this, it's fine.
I said, no, it's fine, but wehave to find a way to break down
your food more effectively soyour body can absorb it and you
(33:45):
can get the nutrients that youwant.
Matter of fact, the there aresome studies that are out there
that saying that putting adigestive enzyme can actually
help with stopping diarrhea, youknow, or preventing
constipation.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
It works ways because if you'relosing things, maybe you can
(34:05):
break it down small enoughpieces that is absorbed into the
system, as opposed to justlosing it, losing it all, and it
works very well.
But to stop the diarrhea orcontrolling it, you know, it's
looking at soluble fiber.
Soluble fiber, not insoluble.
(34:27):
Insoluble yeah, it may bulkyour stools up, but also the
inside of it may bulk it up andthen it starts irritating the
gut again.
So you want soluble fiber tosomething that's broken down so
it actually copes and lines theGI tract and does the job that
it needs to, and does the jobthat it needs to, as well as
giving their your gut bacteriaso they can make sodium butyrate
(34:49):
Right, so you can make your ownright.
It's a nice.
It's a nice process.
It's just bad to see someonegoing through that.
But the end result afterworking with them for months and
actually they're frustratedbecause it's not working, it's
not working.
I have them count the number ofbowel movements that they have
(35:14):
in a day so some people arevisual, so they can see the
numbers and going from 20 downto maybe, you know, having 10.
And then you know it drops downand now they say, oh, it's
working, because I'm not havingas many bowel movements as
diarrhea as I did before.
I said, yeah, that's true, thebiologists are not going to do
(35:36):
that for you, they're justcontrolling your immune system
but at the same time you're notactually using your own body to
heal itself.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
No, it's dampening it Right.
It's almost like chemochemotherapy.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, I know it's totally different, but it's the
same process.
You're limiting your body'shealing process.
So that's how I decided.
If I'm going to work with thisdoctor and not taking everything
away from her, you can use thebiologist, but I'm I'm I'm
working with your body tomodulate.
That's why the vitamin D was soimportant to modulate the
(36:10):
immune system.
Anything I can do to helppeople, you know, because most
people don't want to talk abouttheir, their GI problems, you
know, they don't want to talkabout it until it gets really,
really bad.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I imagine you know it's a, it's a lot, it's a lot
of convo and they're desperate.
They want some success.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Right A lot of times taking out some different things
that may irritate their gut.
Any small part like peanuts,popcorn, granola, anything
that's kind of grainy or stuffthat could get caught in the foe
, that creates a whole new,different thing, you know.
But we don't want anythingirritating that the gut lining,
(36:57):
especially as it's alreadyinflamed and it's really really
messy.
You want to just give thingsthat are going to be very
calming, you know, to the body.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I think you're a wealth of knowledge.
There's so much more we couldtalk about.
Is there a fun note that wehaven't found out about you,
that you haven't?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Oh, yeah, there is a.
There is a fun note.
I'm not gonna make this long,I'll make it kind of short.
But you know, about five yearsago I get a, I get a message
from a genealogist and she waslike, oh, she's messaging me,
which is through social media,which I don't know, this lady.
(37:35):
She goes I'm a genealogist andI'm just doing a family search
and you might be related toMegan Markle.
I'm like, really, get out ofhere, I'm not doing this.
So I said she goes here's mynumber, you need to call me.
I was like I am not calling you.
So I started thinking about it.
I said, well, maybe there couldbe something.
(37:57):
So I said is there anothernumber that I could use to call
you?
So I called her back and shestarts telling me all this stuff
about my family and stuff andfriends of the family that my
father knew and stuff like that.
I said, okay, so you must besome truth.
She goes yeah, I'm a genealogistand they're doing a family
(38:18):
history of Meghan Markle.
This is before she became theprince or duchess, you know, way
before they were just trying toget information.
So he goes you could be relatedto her.
I was like, why are you evendoing all this stuff?
So she started rattling off myfather's background this is
where it's coming from myfather's background and where
they grew up and there's a lotof families most of the family
(38:41):
Dabney's had kind of settled in,so that's where Megan's
mother's grandmother had settledin.
So basically I can't rememberthe history.
We were like third cousinstwice we moved or something like
that.
So it's basically mygreat-grandfather and
grandmother and whatever youknow, had a child which
(39:01):
eventually, you know, turnedinto family and stuff like that.
That's neat, yeah.
So I'm related.
So we reached out to her oncewe found out.
We never got a response.
You know family reunions wereach out to them and they never
respond back.
So I don't know, we're relatedgenetically.
That you know.
The family tree kind of provesthat.
(39:21):
But that's the interesting factis just how it happened.
We got a lot of publicity, yougot a lot of interviews from the
newspaper and radio and oh, wow, like that.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So that's, that's interesting yeah, the gene, the
gene pool and ancestries and thethose uh genetic things like I
feel like surprises come up allthe time, different things.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, this well, see, we didn't do the genetic
testing portion, it was onlydone.
It was only done by the familytree.
And there's I mean definitelythere's a when the genealogists
started looking.
Megan's mother or grandmotheractually did live there, matter
of fact, that's where they metmy side of the family.
(40:04):
So that's how we came intobeing with that, not knowing
what was going to happen.
But it was interesting, it wasa nice thing to ride, it was
very.
People were always doinginterviews and stuff like that,
especially when they got married.
But interestingly enough, shedoes look a little bit like my
sister.
So there is something that'sthere.
But as far as anything elsegoes, I can't think of anything
(40:25):
else goes.
I don't know, I can't think ofanything.
I can't think of anything elsethat that's kind of fun though.
Other than other than workrelated, you know or not.
Oh, I another interesting factI started things late in life,
Went to, went to medical schoolat 40.
, Joined the Army at 40.
(40:46):
Wow, I didn't know you weregoing to tell me Okay, that was,
I was.
Somehow I went to the military.
The Army was not my firstchoice.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I was thinking that I didn't think you could go in
that early.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
That was because of the.
There was a need.
A lot of times we're going tothe medical side or any other
side, you find there's a need tomake preparations for you, as
long as you meet thequalifications.
So the long story short was mywife was applying for the Army
Reserve, you know the NationalGuard, and I would just drove
(41:20):
her up there, you know.
And I was just sitting in theoffice and the surgeon general
comes out and he was like whatdo you want?
I'm like, well, I don't wantanything, I'm just waiting for
my wife, which he went with theinterview.
He just left the interview andwas sitting down there talking
to me.
So he started getting someinformation on my background and
I says, well, I worked for FDA,did CDC, did this, this, this.
(41:42):
And he was like, oh, and hestarts hey guys, look at this,
look who I found.
What are you talking about?
So all this officer startscoming out like I'm some oddity.
He's like well, what you toldme?
You couldn't find anybody.
Well, he's sitting here in theoffice.
What guys, what are you talkingabout?
Because we're looking forsomebody with your background
and we can't find anybody.
(42:03):
I was like look man, you'relooking at the wrong person.
I'm not doing anything.
I gave that up a long time ago.
I'm old, I'm wearing glasses,you know.
He was like well, I can waivethat.
I'm like who are you?
I'm a Surgeon General.
I'm like okay, so anyway.
So I applied and eventually gotin, but I was really brought on
(42:24):
board because of the biologicaltoxins.
I used to work with a lot ofbiological toxins at FDA a lot
for many years and did a lot ofwork with botulism a lot of
different biological toxins,primarily from the GI tract.
I was involved with the GItract.
Wow, how fascinating.
So, I was.
They don't call it.
(42:45):
They don't call, they call itcivil support now.
But at that time was it was theweapons of mass destruction
unit you don't hear people callit that much, but I was in
charge of the biological portionof that.
I was sworn in 15 days after9-11.
That's because it would havebeen earlier.
But they lost my paperwork, anydollars, other stuff.
(43:05):
I wouldn't have been.
And people were not happy andthey were like, why do you want
to do this?
You know something can happento you.
Like it doesn't really matter,because I was going to do this
anyway.
If my paperwork hadn't gottenlost, 9-11 would have happened
anyway and I would have been.
I was still, would have beeninvolved.
So I got a lot of pushback.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
We were in at the same time.
We were in at the same time.
Oh, oh, you were, I was in thenavy.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh, you were the navy and that was what I wanted.
That was my first choice wasthe navy, yeah we were in at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I was in for six and then a couple reserves, but yeah
, I was in until 2008, but 2006.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Okay so, I really admired you.
I was actually involved withthe Navy.
I was an ROTC when I was incollege and got a scholarship.
Then they revoked thescholarship because I had flat
feet.
That was a no-no and I alwayshad an interest in the Navy.
My brother, owen's brother, wasin the Navy.
He was a lieutenant commanderof the Navy when he retired.
(44:05):
So I had an interest in theNavy.
My brother, oldest brother, wasin the Navy.
He was a lieutenant commanderof the Navy when he retired.
So I had an interest in theNavy.
And my father was in the AirForce for 30 years, flight
engineer, but it was not my.
It was not my place, I guessbecause I every time I applied,
it was always a war to broke outa conflict.
It's like well, paul,apparently that's not a good
sign for you.
So what did you do in the Navy?
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh, I'm actually was an ET and then I got medically
trained and then I became anurse.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
So yeah, I that was my first choice.
That was my first.
It wanted to be my firstinvolvement.
But you know, nothing wrongwith the army, I'm not degrading
the army, it's just that thatwas my first first choice, but
first choice.
But at 40 years old, going tobasic training, all these you
know that's pretty big.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
That's pretty big but awesome.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I tell people you do what, you do what you need to do
, and you don't matter.
You know there's, despite thetime, restraint, you know that
is, go ahead and try it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
So yeah, you on I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I really enjoyed this .
It's been a lot of fun.
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
So I love for those to reach out to you.
So what website can they reachyou out?
And then I'll put the rest ofyour information on the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
It's wwwcnhoworg.
That's my business webpage.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Okay, perfect, and I'll put that on the show notes
and I appreciate you coming out.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
This was a lot of fun .
I really enjoyed it.
I just wanted to reach out topeople, anybody that has any
type of medical or health issues, especially the oddities.
I really like doing theresearch on that.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And they can connect with you nationally, correct?
Excuse me, Can they see younationally?
Can they find you and see youand connect with you online?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, I do, you know the telemedicine.
I also see people you knowinternationally as well as
domestically.
I have a lot of following youknow on an international basis
Amazing.
So I like to spread myself thin, watch out, watch out.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I always cut my yeses , even for myself.
I've cut myself to like makesure I'm not always spreading
too thin because you want tomake sure, I know, I know you
love what you sound like.
You love what you do no, it'sjust, you know what it is.
We care, we like our people, welove our people.
But I think you know we have tomake sure we, we make sure that
we can do the best.
Make time for yourself, yeah,yeah.
(46:31):
So let's chat again.
We'll get back and have you onthe show again.
So I thank you again for yourtime.
Thank you very much, man.
Thanks for having me All right.
Bye, bye-bye.
Thanks guys for coming in andcoming in on the show.
Hi, how are you?
This is Damaris Maria Grossmanand this is the Mindfully
Integrative Show, and today wehave an amazing guest, dr Paul
Dabney.
He is a naturopathic and has anarray of history in the health
industry and worked for the FDACDC.
I'm hearing, and many of thethings that got him into being a
little bit more and I'd say,integrative, or a naturopath or
(00:23):
a way of thinking.
So I can't wait for you guys tomeet him and to learn more
about him, and his informationwill be available for you soon.
So, hey, thanks so much, drPaul.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Doing very well.
Thanks for having me.
I really was looking forward tobeing on your podcast.
You have an offer your viewersa lot of information, and I
would hopefully be able tocontribute to that.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean it's a little vast, butI felt like I kind of wanted to
just touch base on differentways of thinking about health.
So, and just you know,highlighting stories of
different you know individuals,especially like yourself, so
let's chat more.
I mean, we were talking alittle bit right before recorded
and and I really want them tounderstand, kind of where you
kind of came to being anaturopath and kind of where you
(01:08):
were discussing with me prior.
So can you go into that?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
yeah, my, my background is is very is wide
out, as wide open.
I didn't start off as a natural, as you know, as a naturopathic
physician.
It started off with just veryconventional science.
My, my background is, you know,I have a bachelor's degree in
microbiology and that's how itkind of started out.
I worked for FDA for like 14years, did research for CDC
(01:35):
dealing with antimicrobialresistance, basically dealing
with bacteria of the gut,enteric bacteria, the enteric
bacteria, looking at that.
But the actual start in lookingat naturopathic medicine
actually started when my scienceadvisor got sick.
He was in Asia, out in themiddle of nowhere and he got
(01:57):
really sick.
So he was actually treated bynatural medicine and when he got
back he brought back this greentea and black tea.
He said well, I need for you tolook at this and see if there's
any antimicrobial properties inthe green and black tea.
So I did some investigation,started doing the research on it
(02:18):
and actually found out that itdid have a lot of good qualities
as far as reducing the effectsof different forms of bacteria,
primary bacteria of the gut.
I took that research toMichigan State where I did
continue the research inantimicrobial resistance and put
it aside.
(02:38):
As far as what I did at FDA tostart the research with green
tea and black tea, I put itaside until I ran across more
research I was doing but dealingwith animals and looking at
antimicrobial resistance inanimals from the perspective of
veterinary medicine.
That's what I did at MichiganState and I started seeing the
(03:00):
same thing.
What are we doing here?
Why are we having thesebacteria that are resistant
coming from animals to humans orhumans to animals, that effect?
So I started thinking aboutwhat I can do to kind of help.
So I said, in order to make anychange, I decided maybe I
(03:21):
should go into naturopathicmedicine.
So once my wife finished medicalschool at Michigan State, I
applied for a naturopathicmedical school in Arizona, which
I spent some time doing.
That that's how I got startedinto naturopathic medicine.
But actuality, it started offmuch younger.
My mother, her grandfather, wasa Native American medicine man
(03:47):
and she kind of did a lot ofdifferent things herbal things
when we were kids and as a kidyou didn't really appreciate it,
you know.
You kind of thought it was badand it was terrible to take.
But I started looking at someof the different things that she
was doing.
The wounds healed faster, youknow, even though it tasted bad,
your wounds healed faster andwe were very rarely sick.
And I started taking thinkingabout these different properties
(04:10):
and stuff and one to startutilize them into my practice
many, many years later, manyyears later.
So that's pretty much how thatstarted, you know, and involved
with naturopathic medicine.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So, so, like, well, gut health, but I mean it's from
your, since you were young andyou were getting like these,
like funky teas or probablythese for like the wounds, and
you're probably like what isthis?
What is this?
What am I doing as a kid?
But now you're realizing howeffective, right.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
As a kid you didn't appreciate what what she was
doing, even though I think I wasvery observant.
But I noticed that things werea little bit different,
especially when we were veryrarely sick.
But you know, it was somethingI really wanted to investigate
and I was kind of wondering.
(04:59):
People always wonder how do youfit in, because your background
is so conventional andnaturopathic medicine is a
little bit different, and I waslike it was based on a need.
I wanted to do something thatwas a little bit different and
not really taking theconventional route, even though
I had an opportunity to do so.
(05:19):
It was a choice that I made.
I thought I could make a biggerdifference from looking at it
from a naturopathic perspective,did you?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
get any pushback from actually even just your family,
being that your wife'sconventional medicine.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
In actuality my wife.
She's an OBGYN and she has beenvery supportive with this
venture.
And she has been verysupportive, you know, with this
venture.
As a matter of fact.
Long story short with this isthat when she applied for
residency she knew that I wantedto go to Arizona.
So she kind of tailored herself.
She kind of just basicallydownplayed a lot of different
(05:59):
things and basically focused herattention to Arizona so I can
get that opportunity.
So she's been very supportivewith that.
But a lot of her patients whowere in Arizona were looking for
alternative medicine approachesand she didn't know them and
she would ask me to look into itand do some research and then
provide information for herpatients.
(06:20):
Even today we work together.
She's in practice as an OB OBGYNhere in Decatur and there's
always a demand.
Women want other, differentthings to handle their problems.
So we consult a lot.
She consults me and she takesthe lead on handling her
patients, lead on handling herpatients.
(06:41):
But that's how I got involvedwith women's health is through
her.
But as far as my immediatefamily, they were supportive.
My mom was definitely pleased.
Actually she became my patient.
But we lost her to COVID aboutthree years ago.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But she was always very happy.
She goes well.
I guess I did something.
I'm so sorry.
And do blend together very well, and then there's some times
that they don't, and that's whatyou have to.
People have to understand thatyou have to.
There's a place for everythingand it's also a blending of
different things for differentdiseases and things like that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So, in reference because I mean you're very big
on gut health and also women'shealth, Most of your clients now
that you see are more in alsowomen's health.
Most of your clients now thatyou see are more in the women's
health sector or inperimenopause, menopause area,
or you do have a variety ofpatients.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
There's a variety.
There's a variety.
I see more women than men,because most men don't get it.
I think you see that a lot.
If I deal with just womenwhether it's women's health or
dealing with just differentthings high blood pressure,
(08:14):
diabetes I see more women thatare coming to me and I have to
come up with solutions orworking with their doctors to
blend conventional medicine withalternative medicine or
naturopathic medicine.
So for most people, I see morewomen than men.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, my question for you is because I feel like I
have this argument not reallyargument I'm passionate about,
say integrating, just because,in the sense of like, I just
feel like the conversation needsinstead of this like butting
heads.
Do you get a pretty goodresponse from some of their
primaries or their when you'resaying, hey, let's do this,
let's talk about or has it beennegated it?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
depends on who I'm dealing with.
Some of the times the doctorswill listen.
For the most part, sometimesthey don't know me, so I have to
introduce myself, you know, tothem or through their patients.
I tell my patients you stillhave a primary care doctor.
(09:16):
I'm kind of like a consultant.
You know I really want to helpyou out, but I still have to go
through your doctor.
So once I sit down with them andtalk to them, some of them are
a little bit open.
Some of them says, well, Idon't really want to do this.
I'm thinking that there may besome interactions.
I says, well, what we can do iswhile they're in a hospital you
(09:38):
do your thing, but when they'reout, maybe we collaborate and
do it.
So once you kind of open thatfield up and not being combative
with them, because some peopleare like, well, why are you not
going on with this?
I can't, because your doctor'sstill in charge.
I can't get involved with that.
But once I kind of get themkind of cleared up, most of the
(10:01):
time they're pretty open,especially if they're at a wit's
end.
I do a lot of research.
I love looking into medicaloddities and if they can't
figure it out, I says, well,maybe we can get together and
try to figure it out, so thatusually works.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
What has been something that's been different
or like out of the ordinary,that you may have seen, that
people might not have or thatyou're like oh, that comes up
that most people don't so one ofthe things that there was a
there was a patient of mine whohad gone.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
She's a medical doctor and she had just retired
and she had gone to the beachwith her family and somehow she
got something stuck in her footand she had went into this.
I mean it was really bad.
Her wound got infected, she,she was really really bad, her
blood pressure dropped, I meanall these different things had
(10:58):
happened to her and the doctorswould run all these tests.
They couldn't't find anythingreally major.
There was an infection, butthey didn't really know what it
was.
But the symptoms were reallylife-threatening and once they
got it under control because westill don't know what this is
she would have these flare-ups,for temperature would go up, she
would have problems breathingand I was like, what is this?
(11:21):
So a friend of mine, who was afriend of his, he contacted me,
which I contacted her.
I says, well, can you help her?
I'm like, well, let's see.
So I went through the symptom,looked through her records, did
all this other stuff.
So I'm like I can't reallydon't know what this is.
And so I started thinking aboutsome of the symptoms I had seen
in the past and one of thethings I thought when made would
(11:46):
have been would be mast cellactivation.
Okay, so mast cell activation.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Talk to everybody about that.
Oh, okay, so mast cell.
People don't know.
Most people around here justhave no idea about medicine and
they're just Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
So mast cells are cells that are within is part of
your immune system, and theystimulate the immune system.
They're okay when they don'tget overstimulated but due to
infections or allergies orallergens, food sensitivities, I
mean a lot of different thingswill stimulate them to the point
(12:20):
where they get really, reallybad.
So one of the big things is areally bad histamine response.
They secrete a lot of differentchemicals.
One of them is histamines, andthat can really really take a
big, big toll, you know, on aperson's body and that was what
I thought she may have had.
And the doctor's like youbetter get your affairs in order
(12:43):
.
That's how bad it was, becausethey didn't know what it was.
Oh, wow, so well, what I can do.
If you really want to do thiswith me, why don't you just take
Benadryl?
She was like I got a majorhealth problem.
She wanted to give me somethingwith Benadryl I think you have
a mast cell activation and shetook it and within a, within a
(13:03):
couple days, all of her symptomsdisappeared oh, the, just a
benadryl.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I've okay, I've heard just benadryl, multiple
different types of treatmentsfor mast cells.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So you just said, right, one of the people
basically I chose this out ofactive desperation because her
health was really, really badand she was just so bad.
But I just felt that's what itwas.
All of her labs looked like madcell but the doctors just
didn't agree with it.
Even though she's a physician,she was like I've heard of it.
(13:32):
I said talk to your doctor.
The doctor goes well, we're not.
I've never heard of it, can you?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
talk a little bit more in detail on this, because
I really think there's a lot ofback andand-forth research on it
or back-and-forth conversationsof it doesn't exist.
It does exist and you talkedabout it.
I think that, and then alsowhat the lab in there?
I mean, I think it's a littleinteresting.
I think people should at leastget a touch on it so it doesn't
sound like boring, right?
I think it is real and we knowyou and I can do that.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But I just think that the controversial begins when a
lot of doctors don't believethat it exists because there's
there's research in it.
There's actually, you know,there's funding for it, but some
doctors never heard of it sothey don't get into it and a lot
of it happens due to neglect,starting from the time the
samples are collected.
Due to neglect, starting fromthe time the samples are
collected.
Okay, when you're taking thesesamples from the person, the
(14:32):
blood and the test forhistamines, prostaglandins,
tryptase is a big one.
They don't chill it, they don'tput it on ice and by the time
it gets to the lab to have itanalyzed, those enzymes are
temperature sensitive andthey're not there or they're
there in small amounts.
Another thing is that they weresaying that you've got to catch
(14:53):
the.
The mast cells are active.
That's when you really starthave to do the blood tests to
really get it in this fullownforce.
If you start treating it, theresponse goes down and you're
not going to get.
Your lab results are not goingto be as high as they should be.
So that's when they're testedand chilling.
It is the critical part.
(15:15):
Okay, okay, yeah.
And that's why people don't saythat it doesn't exist, because
they can have all the symptomsfor it and then when they test
it, the levels are not as highas they should have been because
they didn't catch it at itsearliest point or they didn't
cool it down before testing, andthose are the critical points.
So she had talked to her doctorwhich is actually who was a
(15:41):
friend of hers, and he was likeI don't understand what he did.
And now you're well, you'rewalking around you, you were, we
thought you were going to loseyou.
I'm like is something as simpleas Benadryl?
I said no, it's not as simpleas Benadryl.
It's looking at the symptoms,it's looking at the symptoms.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, no, but you went into the.
Like I said, I've heard othertreatments, so Benadryl.
Benadryl is one of the I use.
You know some of the H2.
So can you explain to me whichones you've used and why just?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Benadryl.
Well, I used Benadryl out ofact of desperation.
She was really really sick andthat's what she had on her shelf
, got it.
She agreed to do it because shesays I'm not sure how bad, I
know this is really bad.
I says well, you've gone to thedoctor.
They ran all these tests.
(16:35):
We still, we still need to kindof look into it.
So she agreed to do it andthat's how I did it.
But normally what I normally dois I look at the symptom,
naturally, and since histamineis on the high end most of the
times, I usually will givethere's something that's called
DAO it's an enzyme and thatactually degrades or breaks down
(17:00):
the histamines High amounts ofB6, since DAO is the enzyme that
degrades histamines.
A lot of the times people areB6 deficient and I usually give
the active form of B6, which isP5P, which is the active form.
And you really should give theactive form of B6, which is P5P,
which is the active form, andyou really should give the
(17:20):
active form because it'sbiologically active.
It doesn't have to be activatedbecause regular B6 has to be
activated.
You don't want to really waitaround on that.
Oh, there's another one thatactually works.
Well, I found out thatresveratrol works very well.
I found that out by accident.
(17:42):
I work with sickle cell patientsand a lot of the times with
sickle cell they have a lot oftime not all of them, but a lot
of their crises are stimulatedby mast cell activation, are
stimulated by mast cellactivation.
Trying to get doctors to lookinto that, because they keep
having this pain, this crisisand stuff that come along with
(18:02):
it.
A lot of the time theirtryptase levels are really
really high and the tryptasestimulates pain, which is really
painful.
It also triggers a lot of otherbiological process that can
mimic mast cell activation.
Oh, it's breakdown of bone,breaking down of bone, and pain
(18:26):
as well as inflammation thatgoes along with that.
So those are different thingsthat I look at.
All this quercetin can actuallydrop.
That works very, very well atdropping those mast cells
activation, the symptoms, aswell as calming the mast cells
down.
(18:46):
The problem is, once you getsensitized or they're
oversensitive, it doesn't takemuch to bring this thing back.
So that's why you have to kindof remove the allergens.
If you know the sources,whether it's food or
environmental, being exposed toinfections, you know a lot of
(19:06):
different infections.
So basically it's the part ofyour immune system that gets
overstimulated.
That's pretty much what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
No, I mean, I think it's really interesting because
I think I mean I, you know, Idefinitely read about it and
worked with a little bit with it, but I think you had to do
Benadryl as a quick fix becauseit was like, okay, but remember,
you still had to, you still hadto work about the underlying
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
The mast cells secrete.
You know, like there's thosefour that I mentioned but
there's a lot more, but thehistamines are on a high end.
So you want to kind of look atthat as a way to kind of
controlling the histamines.
You know their response.
As far as what the person'sactually dealing with, they do
(19:51):
have a lot of allergy responsedue to the histamines, but it's
also the tryptase which isbasically the pain.
There's also substance P.
I'm not sure if you've heard ofthat Substance P.
The P stands for pain.
So these mast cells secretethese chemicals that actually
induce pain.
(20:12):
So there's a lot of things thatcontrol the pain For pain, the
histamine response, which is theallergy response, breaking down
of bone, and that's usuallylong-term.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I think you have a lot of chronically ill patients.
Correct, correct, correct.
Yeah, but you've been managingthem pretty well.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, so they're masking them and the problems
get worse because they're notreally addressing them.
What I started looking at forsickle cell patients is a lot of
them start breaking down bone.
They'll start losing bone.
It's not about the nutrientsthat are being blocked due to
the sickling effect of the cells.
It's also due to a lot of timesthe mast cells are being
(20:57):
activated and that's neveraddressed.
They're looking at sickle cellitself but not looking at the
complications that could happenthereafter.
So that's when I looked atresveratrol.
It doesn't work for everybody,but when you're having a lot of
pain, you're looking at a lot ofdifferent things for them to
(21:18):
help stop it and trying toreduce the pain medications,
like opioids, that they givethem.
Next thing you know you keepdoing it.
Next thing you know they'readdicted.
There's studies that show thatresveratrol dampens the pain and
reduces the effects of being onthat pain medication, so it
reduces the effect of you beinghooked on opioids.
(21:42):
Oh, that's excellent.
I've been trying to.
I've been trying to.
I've written several articlesto Sickle Cell Magazine.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I, you know, I'm trying to let people know.
Yeah, they're not alwayswilling to listen, right?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
They don't want to listen or they're listening but
they're not responding back tome.
So the patients that I do have,I want to, you know, put them
on it, you know.
But like I try to cover a lotof different areas in my
practice with the patients thatI do see, that's really.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I mean the, I mean sickle cell, just in general, is
a pretty extensive area.
What would you like to discuss,either client-wise,
patient-wise or something beforeyou know you have some more
time.
If you have another you knowantidote that you'd like to give
us for the night or the day.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, there's a couple.
Well, other than the sicklecell, excuse me, other than the
sickle cell issue and the onewith the histamine issue, there
was another one looking atulcerative colitis.
I did what I did with a lot ofGI issues, people who have
ulcerative colitis.
It's naturally a really, reallybad case of inflammation that
(22:51):
predominantly, you know, in thecolon, and I tell people
inflammation spreads.
That predominantly, you know,in the colon, and I tell people
inflammation spreads, it doesn'tjust stay in one spot and
they're more prone to it goingfrom the colon and going up into
the small intestines.
So there was a case that I hadworked on where the person was
(23:12):
basically a doctor and thisperson had could not really do
their job because of the, thediarrhea that they were having
all the time and once it startsyou can't control it and it, you
know, it's really really bad.
So they've been putting him on,did a colonoscopy, they found
(23:32):
it.
That is really really severe.
They put, put the person on alot of different biologics,
biological drugs that controlthe immune system, to dampen the
immune system so the body canheal.
That didn't work.
So the patient came to me andsays look, I haven't been on
vacation in years.
(23:53):
I'm a surgeon, I can't affordto be having accidents on myself
.
You know it's like, okay,you're still taking the
medications.
Well, yeah, I says well, we cantalk to your doctor about
lowering the medications andI'll be working with you to
control the inflammation as wellas the healing process.
(24:16):
So what I did was start lookingat different things that can
help with the inflammation, butone of the things that I worked
with that I think that reallywas very, very beneficial was
two things.
One was collagen.
Collagen is the supportmechanism that all your body
needs, it for support.
(24:37):
You need collagen to supportyour teeth, your muscles, your
tendons, everything.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I have like three cups of it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So you have to have a collagen, because now that you
have these open wounds, thesewounds are basically bleeding.
That's pretty much what it is.
So that was one thing, onething that I thought was the
deal breaker Do you do collagenand omega-3 or just collagen?
It's just collagen, and I dosome other different things for
help with inflammation.
But one of the things that Ithought well, I know that was
(25:08):
very, very beneficial wassomething was called butyrate oh
for the stomach.
Called butyrate, oh for thestomach Well, for the stomach,
but actually for the GI tract.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Okay, so here it is in a nutshell.
Talk to them about it, tellthem a little bit about that,
because I know you said some ofmy GI stuff, but discuss.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, so butyrate is a small chain fatty acid.
Okay, that actually comes fromthe fermentation process of
fiber.
Okay, and that's why it'simportant to have fiber in your
diet, because the bacteria inyour gut take the fiber and
(25:48):
break it down into butyrate.
Okay, so if if a person's gutis working normally, they're
going to be usually probablysold in a butyrate reduced
because the body's trying toutilize this butyrate to help
heal that, that, that ulcercolitis.
So butyrate what it does it.
This is how the beauty of itall it controls the immune
(26:13):
system.
It modulates the immune system,so it controls it.
It also what else does it do?
It lowers the inflammation.
It's very, very good forlowering inflammation so the
body can start healing, and itactually works a lot better with
the biologic.
It actually complements it.
(26:35):
This is where I got.
This is where I, yeah, Ifigured I said there must be a
connection.
So that's when I started kindof falling out, falling, you
know, doing this different,developing a protocol for it.
It took about maybe five monthsin order to, because it was
really really bad, and I askedthe doctor before we started to
(26:56):
be tested for parasites and thedoctor kind of looked at me like
, well why.
I says well, it could be aparalytic infection and says
maybe we could do probiotics.
Doctor was like, no, we're notdoing that.
I was like but you know about,you're a gastroenterologist.
He goes we're not doing that.
I says okay.
(27:16):
I says well, let's do threemonths of this treatment that
you're planning.
If that doesn't work, maybe wecould mix it with what I'm doing
and blend it.
So once she didn't heal, thedoctor was saying can we do this
?
I really want to do it.
So it was an agreement that wehad together and she actually is
done.
Put her ulcer colitis inremission, spent my three years.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I love it.
So the question for youtest-wise what did you do for
your GI test-wise?
Did you use a specific testingor did you just know from
symptoms?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I did not, I did not do any testing.
I was looking for the resultsbecause her GI tract was really
was so messed up and when I gotthe imaging back not the imaging
, imaging, well, it's just thepictures that the, that the
g-gastronomies took I mean itwas really really really badly
(28:11):
inflamed and naturally she'sanemic.
There was a lot of differentthings we had to to kind of look
at.
So I didn't think maybe doingthat I mean, sometimes I do look
for that or ask for it, butthis particular case I didn't.
I didn't do it.
Then I slowly started to add theprobiotics in once the diarrhea
(28:32):
had decreased, because she washaving like 10 to 15 bouts of
diarrhea every day and just notknowing when it was going to
happen.
So she had to cut out hersurgery schedule and she had to
reduce a lot of stuff.
So it took a while to do this,but it's very doable.
(28:54):
It's very doable.
So it's the research behind it.
That's what I like.
I didn't just come up with this.
Well, I kind of did, but I usedthe existing research and find
out what they were doing andfinding out what can be done to
blend with with conventionalmedicine along with, you know,
other alternative approaches.
(29:14):
Even after I presented herdoctor with this information,
they still didn't buy it.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
They didn't right.
They still don't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
They still didn't understand it.
They didn't.
They just well, that's a fluke.
It's like well, it's not afluke, because she was on this
medication that you wereproviding and was not getting
any better.
It was getting worse until weblended this together and it
worked.
It was.
It took a while, but it wasvery much very much.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I can definitely attest to tell you that things
that I either tried on likeclients myself, family members
in some manner of you know, gut,gut rebalancing they do work,
but it could take three to six.
I won't say that I'm an expertlike in the sense of I have seen
autoimmune remission.
Responses Granted, I know thatsome of it there's just maybe
(30:08):
not enough studies, but that'swhy I love having people on like
yourself, because it's like,hey, let's have the conversation
, don't be afraid of like, let'stry something, because if these
are not working, not workingthere's obviously there's Well,
there's also something else thatI did that I didn't mention.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I should have mentioned it.
It's really important isvitamin D.
Vitamin D is underestimated.
I know there are people nowtesting for it because people's
vitamin D levels are low.
But vitamin D does a lot morethan just bones and teeth.
That's what it's touted for,but it does a lot more, and one
of the things that it does dothat I thought was very
(30:46):
beneficial was tightening thegut junction, so if the person
has which I'm pretty sure theperson had leaky gut because of
severe inflammation, and alsomodulating the immune system and
modulating the well, not onlythe immune system, but
modulating how the body respondsin the healing process.
(31:08):
So I did that at high doses.
Now the thing is, what I did waswith that, since she already
had a gut issue and I wasconcerned about her losing,
because her having so muchdiarrhea all the time and when
she's having that, any fluidloss especially, you know,
dealing coming coming from thecolon you have a pretty good
(31:31):
chance of becoming a fat solubledeficiency.
So A, b, e and K were probablyout the window because she was
not absorbing it or she waslosing it in the diarrhea.
So what I did was for that time, for a short period of time
until the gut started to heal Istarted having her use an oral
(31:55):
or under the tongue sublingualvitamin D or a liquid vitamin D.
Or there's something I reallylike is the vitamin D or
multivitamin patch.
That's really effective.
Any person with a GI issue or agut issue should be on either a
sublingual Sometimes you can'tget a sublingual to cover the
whole multi thing but there arevitamin patches, patch aid and
(32:20):
patch MD.
Those are the two that I've usedthat have been very effective.
I like them.
I have nothing to do with them,I am not affiliated with them,
but they do produce a very goodproduct and I I I did use that
because I know that she couldnot hold any of the nutrients
down based on her on her medicalcondition.
(32:41):
That's really so.
I still check in on her.
She's still back.
She's back to work, takingvacation with her family.
Hasn't had any episodes oranything like that.
So it works I love it, I think.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think, I mean, and do you also have a nutritional
component, that you talk to themabout it?
Or are they already there?
Isn't there, definitely?
Or do they?
Or do they know that by thispoint?
When?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
no, no, well once as we started.
Well, one thing is, when theystart having all these bouts of
diarrhea, trying to finddifferent ways to stop diarrhea
is very critical.
So I'm not really, you know,I'm really big on it on the
nutrition point, but I'm reallyjust trying to get their GI
tract under control before I tryanything.
(33:24):
But one of the things that I dowant to tell them to do is that
putting them on a digestiveenzyme and they're like, wow, oh
, I have to track this.
Yeah, I track this, it's fine.
I said, no, it's fine, but wehave to find a way to break down
your food more effectively soyour body can absorb it and you
(33:45):
can get the nutrients that youwant.
Matter of fact, the there aresome studies that are out there
that saying that putting adigestive enzyme can actually
help with stopping diarrhea, youknow, or preventing
constipation.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
It works ways because if you'relosing things, maybe you can
(34:05):
break it down small enoughpieces that is absorbed into the
system, as opposed to justlosing it, losing it all, and it
works very well.
But to stop the diarrhea orcontrolling it, you know, it's
looking at soluble fiber.
Soluble fiber, not insoluble.
(34:27):
Insoluble yeah, it may bulkyour stools up, but also the
inside of it may bulk it up andthen it starts irritating the
gut again.
So you want soluble fiber tosomething that's broken down so
it actually copes and lines theGI tract and does the job that
it needs to, and does the jobthat it needs to, as well as
giving their your gut bacteriaso they can make sodium butyrate
(34:49):
Right, so you can make your ownright.
It's a nice.
It's a nice process.
It's just bad to see someonegoing through that.
But the end result afterworking with them for months and
actually they're frustratedbecause it's not working, it's
not working.
I have them count the number ofbowel movements that they have
(35:14):
in a day so some people arevisual, so they can see the
numbers and going from 20 downto maybe, you know, having 10.
And then you know it drops downand now they say, oh, it's
working, because I'm not havingas many bowel movements as
diarrhea as I did before.
I said, yeah, that's true, thebiologists are not going to do
(35:36):
that for you, they're justcontrolling your immune system
but at the same time you're notactually using your own body to
heal itself.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
No, it's dampening it Right.
It's almost like chemochemotherapy.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, I know it's totally different, but it's the
same process.
You're limiting your body'shealing process.
So that's how I decided.
If I'm going to work with thisdoctor and not taking everything
away from her, you can use thebiologist, but I'm I'm I'm
working with your body tomodulate.
That's why the vitamin D was soimportant to modulate the
(36:10):
immune system.
Anything I can do to helppeople, you know, because most
people don't want to talk abouttheir, their GI problems, you
know, they don't want to talkabout it until it gets really,
really bad.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I imagine you know it's a, it's a lot, it's a lot
of convo and they're desperate.
They want some success.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Right A lot of times taking out some different things
that may irritate their gut.
Any small part like peanuts,popcorn, granola, anything
that's kind of grainy or stuffthat could get caught in the foe
, that creates a whole new,different thing, you know.
But we don't want anythingirritating that the gut lining,
(36:57):
especially as it's alreadyinflamed and it's really really
messy.
You want to just give thingsthat are going to be very
calming, you know, to the body.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I think you're a wealth of knowledge.
There's so much more we couldtalk about.
Is there a fun note that wehaven't found out about you,
that you haven't?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Oh, yeah, there is a.
There is a fun note.
I'm not gonna make this long,I'll make it kind of short.
But you know, about five yearsago I get a, I get a message
from a genealogist and she waslike, oh, she's messaging me,
which is through social media,which I don't know, this lady.
(37:35):
She goes I'm a genealogist andI'm just doing a family search
and you might be related toMegan Markle.
I'm like, really, get out ofhere, I'm not doing this.
So I said she goes here's mynumber, you need to call me.
I was like I am not calling you.
So I started thinking about it.
I said, well, maybe there couldbe something.
(37:57):
So I said is there anothernumber that I could use to call
you?
So I called her back and shestarts telling me all this stuff
about my family and stuff andfriends of the family that my
father knew and stuff like that.
I said, okay, so you must besome truth.
She goes yeah, I'm a genealogistand they're doing a family
(38:18):
history of Meghan Markle.
This is before she became theprince or duchess, you know, way
before they were just trying toget information.
So he goes you could be relatedto her.
I was like, why are you evendoing all this stuff?
So she started rattling off myfather's background this is
where it's coming from myfather's background and where
they grew up and there's a lotof families most of the family
(38:41):
Dabney's had kind of settled in,so that's where Megan's
mother's grandmother had settledin.
So basically I can't rememberthe history.
We were like third cousinstwice we moved or something like
that.
So it's basically mygreat-grandfather and
grandmother and whatever youknow, had a child which
(39:01):
eventually, you know, turnedinto family and stuff like that.
That's neat, yeah.
So I'm related.
So we reached out to her oncewe found out.
We never got a response.
You know family reunions wereach out to them and they never
respond back.
So I don't know, we're relatedgenetically.
That you know.
The family tree kind of provesthat.
(39:21):
But that's the interesting factis just how it happened.
We got a lot of publicity, yougot a lot of interviews from the
newspaper and radio and oh, wow, like that.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So that's, that's interesting yeah, the gene, the
gene pool and ancestries and thethose uh genetic things like I
feel like surprises come up allthe time, different things.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, this well, see, we didn't do the genetic
testing portion, it was onlydone.
It was only done by the familytree.
And there's I mean definitelythere's a when the genealogists
started looking.
Megan's mother or grandmotheractually did live there, matter
of fact, that's where they metmy side of the family.
(40:04):
So that's how we came intobeing with that, not knowing
what was going to happen.
But it was interesting, it wasa nice thing to ride, it was
very.
People were always doinginterviews and stuff like that,
especially when they got married.
But interestingly enough, shedoes look a little bit like my
sister.
So there is something that'sthere.
But as far as anything elsegoes, I can't think of anything
(40:25):
else goes.
I don't know, I can't think ofanything.
I can't think of anything elsethat that's kind of fun though.
Other than other than workrelated, you know or not.
Oh, I another interesting factI started things late in life,
Went to, went to medical schoolat 40.
, Joined the Army at 40.
(40:46):
Wow, I didn't know you weregoing to tell me Okay, that was,
I was.
Somehow I went to the military.
The Army was not my firstchoice.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I was thinking that I didn't think you could go in
that early.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
That was because of the.
There was a need.
A lot of times we're going tothe medical side or any other
side, you find there's a need tomake preparations for you, as
long as you meet thequalifications.
So the long story short was mywife was applying for the Army
Reserve, you know the NationalGuard, and I would just drove
(41:20):
her up there, you know.
And I was just sitting in theoffice and the surgeon general
comes out and he was like whatdo you want?
I'm like, well, I don't wantanything, I'm just waiting for
my wife, which he went with theinterview.
He just left the interview andwas sitting down there talking
to me.
So he started getting someinformation on my background and
I says, well, I worked for FDA,did CDC, did this, this, this.
(41:42):
And he was like, oh, and hestarts hey guys, look at this,
look who I found.
What are you talking about?
So all this officer startscoming out like I'm some oddity.
He's like well, what you toldme?
You couldn't find anybody.
Well, he's sitting here in theoffice.
What guys, what are you talkingabout?
Because we're looking forsomebody with your background
and we can't find anybody.
(42:03):
I was like look man, you'relooking at the wrong person.
I'm not doing anything.
I gave that up a long time ago.
I'm old, I'm wearing glasses,you know.
He was like well, I can waivethat.
I'm like who are you?
I'm a Surgeon General.
I'm like okay, so anyway.
So I applied and eventually gotin, but I was really brought on
(42:24):
board because of the biologicaltoxins.
I used to work with a lot ofbiological toxins at FDA a lot
for many years and did a lot ofwork with botulism a lot of
different biological toxins,primarily from the GI tract.
I was involved with the GItract.
Wow, how fascinating.
So, I was.
They don't call it.
(42:45):
They don't call, they call itcivil support now.
But at that time was it was theweapons of mass destruction
unit you don't hear people callit that much, but I was in
charge of the biological portionof that.
I was sworn in 15 days after9-11.
That's because it would havebeen earlier.
But they lost my paperwork, anydollars, other stuff.
(43:05):
I wouldn't have been.
And people were not happy andthey were like, why do you want
to do this?
You know something can happento you.
Like it doesn't really matter,because I was going to do this
anyway.
If my paperwork hadn't gottenlost, 9-11 would have happened
anyway and I would have been.
I was still, would have beeninvolved.
So I got a lot of pushback.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
We were in at the same time.
We were in at the same time.
Oh, oh, you were, I was in thenavy.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh, you were the navy and that was what I wanted.
That was my first choice wasthe navy, yeah we were in at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I was in for six and then a couple reserves, but yeah
, I was in until 2008, but 2006.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Okay so, I really admired you.
I was actually involved withthe Navy.
I was an ROTC when I was incollege and got a scholarship.
Then they revoked thescholarship because I had flat
feet.
That was a no-no and I alwayshad an interest in the Navy.
My brother, owen's brother, wasin the Navy.
He was a lieutenant commanderof the Navy when he retired.
(44:05):
So I had an interest in theNavy.
My brother, oldest brother, wasin the Navy.
He was a lieutenant commanderof the Navy when he retired.
So I had an interest in theNavy.
And my father was in the AirForce for 30 years, flight
engineer, but it was not my.
It was not my place, I guessbecause I every time I applied,
it was always a war to broke outa conflict.
It's like well, paul,apparently that's not a good
sign for you.
So what did you do in the Navy?
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh, I'm actually was an ET and then I got medically
trained and then I became anurse.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
So yeah, I that was my first choice.
That was my first.
It wanted to be my firstinvolvement.
But you know, nothing wrongwith the army, I'm not degrading
the army, it's just that thatwas my first first choice, but
first choice.
But at 40 years old, going tobasic training, all these you
know that's pretty big.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
That's pretty big but awesome.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I tell people you do what, you do what you need to do
, and you don't matter.
You know there's, despite thetime, restraint, you know that
is, go ahead and try it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
So yeah, you on I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I really enjoyed this .
It's been a lot of fun.
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
So I love for those to reach out to you.
So what website can they reachyou out?
And then I'll put the rest ofyour information on the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
It's wwwcnhoworg.
That's my business webpage.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Okay, perfect, and I'll put that on the show notes
and I appreciate you coming out.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
This was a lot of fun .
I really enjoyed it.
I just wanted to reach out topeople, anybody that has any
type of medical or health issues, especially the oddities.
I really like doing theresearch on that.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And they can connect with you nationally, correct?
Excuse me, Can they see younationally?
Can they find you and see youand connect with you online?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, I do, you know the telemedicine.
I also see people you knowinternationally as well as
domestically.
I have a lot of following youknow on an international basis
Amazing.
So I like to spread myself thin, watch out, watch out.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I always cut my yeses , even for myself.
I've cut myself to like makesure I'm not always spreading
too thin because you want tomake sure, I know, I know you
love what you sound like.
You love what you do no, it'sjust, you know what it is.
We care, we like our people, welove our people.
But I think you know we have tomake sure we, we make sure that
we can do the best.
Make time for yourself, yeah,yeah.
(46:31):
So let's chat again.
We'll get back and have you onthe show again.
So I thank you again for yourtime.
Thank you very much, man.
Thanks for having me All right.
Bye, bye-bye.
Thanks guys for coming in andcoming in on the show.
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