February 3, 2025 • 32 mins
Is your relationship struggling after the arrival of a baby? Do you feel like you've been pushed aside by your partner’s new role as a mother? In this episode, Charles and Dan break down the challenges men face when children enter a romantic relationship—whether you're a new dad, dating a single mom, or just trying to understand how priorities shift in family dynamics.
Drawing insights from The Man’s Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman, the hosts explore:
✔️ Why it’s normal to feel neglected when a baby arrives
✔️ How a man's role in parenting impacts child development
✔️ The dangers of competing with children for attention
✔️ Why active listening and emotional support are crucial
✔️ Practical strategies to keep romance alive in fatherhood
💡 Whether you're a dad, a stepdad, or dating someone with kids, this episode will help you navigate the shift from partner to parent while maintaining a fulfilling relationship.
Key Takeaways from This Episode
🔹 Understand Biological Shifts: When kids enter the picture, a mother’s priorities naturally change. Recognizing this can prevent resentment.
🔹 Avoid Toxic Competition: Acting out for attention—whether through withdrawal or passive-aggressive behavior—only harms relationships.
🔹 Step Up, Don’t Step Back: Being emotionally and physically present as a father figure leads to better outcomes for kids.
🔹 Keep the Romance Alive: Thoughtful planning and intentional effort can help your partner transition between mom-mode and relationship-mode.
🔹 Communicate Like a Pro: Before venting frustrations to your partner, talk to a trusted friend, therapist, or mentor to refine your thoughts.
Resources Mentioned
📖 The Man’s Guide to Women by Dr. John Gottman
🎥 12 Angry Men (1957) – A surprising lesson on fatherhood
👥 Therapy & Men’s Groups – The importance of external support
Join the Conversation
📩 Have you faced similar struggles in your relationship? Share your thoughts with us at [your podcast email or social media].
🔗 Follow Mindfully Masculine for more episodes on personal growth, relationships, and modern masculinity.
⭐ If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review—it helps us reach more men on the path to mindful masculinity!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
You might feel a little neglected or displaced when
kids come into a woman's life.
When you've been the primaryrelationship in her life as her
romantic partner, well, whenkids arrive, you're going to
feel less like the primaryrelationship in her life, and
that's kind of the way that it'ssupposed to work.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
(00:21):
This is Charles.
Back to the Mindfully MasculinePodcast.
This is Charles.
All right, in this episode, danand I will continue to discuss
the Man's Guide to Women by theGottmans, and this chapter is
all about motherhood and livingin a relationship and probably a
house with a mother.
Topics that will be coveredinclude impact of children on
(00:43):
relationships, challenges ofbalancing romantic relationships
and parenting, common mistakesin relationships after children.
Role of fathers in childdevelopment.
Emotional challenges forfathers.
Maintaining romantic connectionafter children, avoiding
negative behaviors inrelationships, active listening
and communication and supportsystems for fathers.
(01:05):
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find all of our episodes,audio, video and whatever other
stuff we want to share.
Thanks and enjoy.
Dan (01:17):
Good afternoon, sir.
I think we finally got it.
Charles (01:19):
Yes, yes, as I said in the last intro that we are not
keeping.
I am trying some new thingswith the video in our studio
here and, as a result, we'restruggling through.
While we're in the in-betweenphase, I replaced my camera and
ordered a replacement camera foryou.
That has not yet arrived, sowe're making do with the webcam
(01:43):
you use for your normal officetasks, and it's a little
complicated, but we'll be therethis time next week.
Everything should be herepermanently.
Dan (01:52):
Did you imagine trying to do this with Amazon?
Honestly, like how long we'dhave to wait for stuff, how long
it takes to replace stuff,probably having an argument
every time we needed to replacesomething.
You know, going back to thestore and like needing to prove,
and there's also like ifsomething didn't work, or it did
you know?
Charles (02:09):
all right, let's jump into our material.
We're still talking about theman's guide to women.
We've only got two chaptersleft and then we'll be done and
onto our next book.
This chapter is about mothernature, specifically meaning the
mother part of yourrelationship and what her
relationship with her children'slike, what your relationship
(02:30):
with your children's like andwhat your relationship to her
because of the children is goingto be like as two men without
children in our lives.
Well, your girlfriend has kids,but you don't have any of your
own.
I don't have any of my own, mygirlfriend doesn't have any of
her own.
So we can blow through thischapter with no guilt, because
it doesn't apply to us, butwe'll try to share the important
(02:52):
parts that some of ourlisteners may get some value out
of.
One of the things that DrGottman and others emphasizes in
this chapter is that if you aregoing to have a relationship
with a woman who is or maybecome a mother, then it's
pretty important to understandwhat's going to change and what
(03:13):
life's going to be like having amother and or a mother's
children in your house, justunderstanding how her priorities
will change or be impacted bythe fact that she's got little
ones that she's responsible forkeeping alive and turning into
useful members of society.
(03:34):
So one of the things to keep inmind is that you might feel a
little neglected or displaced.
When kids come into a woman'slife when you've been the
primary relationship in her lifeas her romantic partner, well,
when kids arrive, you're goingto feel less like the primary
relationship in her life, andthat's kind of the way that's
(03:57):
supposed to work, based onevolution and biology, and I
mean logically.
Dan (04:03):
Logically speaking, think about it for itself right, yeah,
yeah.
Charles (04:08):
Human babies are especially bad at that compared
to other animals.
Dan (04:11):
Correct and so it needs that level of of care and
attention and you don't CorrectExactly and and and.
But that absolutely introducesa lot of challenges and a lot of
times it's a challenge to tryto find that balance between,
you know, having that romanticrelationship and attending to
(04:33):
needs for the relationship, aswell as also balancing and and
and being able to take care ofthat kid in the right way, right
, so that does become a good,you know.
Contributing member of society.
Yeah, that kid in the right way,right, so that does become a
good, you know, contributingmember of society, yeah, and
doing in a way where you knowthe woman has enough energy to
do both, I mean that's a crazyamount of work.
(04:54):
Just thinking about that, nothaving to do, having to do it
myself, just knowing peoplewho've done it, it's holy cow.
It blows my mind about like andthen be able to like, switch
your, your, your mode ofthinking too.
Like the way you're, you'reinteracting with a, you know, an
infant or a child is a lotdifferent than the way you
interact with an adult, and alot of times there's going to be
(05:17):
some crossover, you know, somebleed over, I think, and it that
just adds so many morechallenges.
So that's why, when people arelike, oh, we're going to have
kids because the relationship isneeding something, they're
trying to fix something.
Charles (05:33):
People will often express that in plain language,
but we see so many couples tryto pull that off, where they
think that, well, therelationship's a little rocky so
we should probably get married,or the relationship the
marriage is a little rocky, sowe should probably have kids.
Dan (05:48):
I think all that is is a distraction from the problems
that are happening.
Right, it's a way to take yourmind off of it, because this is
oh no, focus on the wedding orthe marriage or the kids or
whatever else, or this new petthat we got or whatever.
So the dressing issues thatyou've got, you're figuring okay
, we don't want to rock the boator address them because it
could mean the end of therelationship.
(06:09):
So instead we'll kind ofdistract ourselves with
something else that we both kindof like and then maybe we'll
come together because we bothlike that thing and now we have
a new way of connecting.
Charles (06:19):
But I don't know if that works, which is, yeah, it
definitely doesn't, and it seemsintuitive.
I don't know if that works,which is, yeah, it definitely
doesn't, and it seems intuitive.
I mean, I know very littleabout home construction or
building.
But if you came to me and said,charles, I've been having a lot
of trouble with the foundationof my house, so I think what I
need to do is add a second story, I would say, dan, I know
nothing about nothing when itcomes to building houses.
(06:40):
That seems like a pretty shittyidea.
But yeah, we do make thatmistake in our relationship.
Dan (06:46):
Sometimes, yeah, and I think it's different.
You know, when we're talkingabout like a hobby right,
something that right like, oh,we're both going to join the
bowling team or we're going togo and we're going to have, you
know, we're going to take salsalessons or something like that,
right, there's a lot lessobligation.
That and stress that comes fromthat.
So, yeah, I'm not saying don'tfind things do in common, but
just look at the other personmight not be on the list yeah
(07:07):
look at look at all the thingsinvolved in taking care of that
other active.
Charles (07:12):
Yeah, and I would say you know, if you're already
struggling with some feelingsabout you know how your needs
are being met or how loved youfeel, or whatever.
I mean, if you're strugglingwith any issues of what I'll
just call immaturity your own oryour partner's it's you had a
kid to the mix and it's veryeasy to go to wait a second.
(07:32):
So now, so now this kid's shownup that you made with her and
you're telling me she's going toneed more of me and I'm going
to get even less in return.
Again, there's, there's a kidhere that you're both ideally
investing in and trying to keephealthy and safe and
well-adjusted and educated.
But yeah, that is kind of whathappens.
(07:53):
It's like you're going to haveto pour more into your partner
and this child and for a while,you're going to get less in
return from both of them.
And so, if you don't have apretty good understanding and a
level of confidence of, yes,this is expected, this is what
I'm supposed to do, this is whatI'm supposed to get back, it's
(08:15):
always the unpleasant surprisesthat affect us the most.
If you can go into itunderstanding, yeah, this is
going to require a bit moreinvestment on my part in both my
wife or partner and the kid,and they're neither one of them
are going to be in a place togive that back to me and that's
just how it's supposed to work,then great.
But if you're like this isunfair, I'm not going to stand
(08:36):
for this Then you're going tofind yourself in a in a world of
hurt.
And so, yeah, know that whenkids come into the mix either
either new ones or you'vestarted dating someone or
getting seriously involved withsomeone who already has kids
like, yeah, you, you are goingto have to invest in supporting
her as a mother and supportingthe children in whatever way is
(08:57):
appropriate given the situation,and you're not going to get as
much back as it feels likeyou're putting in.
That's's how it's supposed tohappen and you should get used
to that.
And also, you know it's notjust you supporting her.
You should understand that youplay a pretty critical role in
the child's development.
Whether it's your biologicalkid or you adopt a kid, or it's
(09:19):
a stepchild from her previousrelationship.
Your amount of involvement intheir life and what you're
willing to invest in them isgoing to have some real serious
impacts on what the outcome iswhen they stop being a kid and
start being an adult, and hegoes down the list of some of
the outcomes you can expect.
I mean kids who have dads thatare around and active in their
(09:42):
life are going to become betterpeople and healthier people and
happier people than what Ithought was interesting was that
the studies showed that theybecame more empathetic yes from
having fathers around and I youknow, and that just kind of that
was just interesting to me, whythat is yeah
(10:02):
I would say I would have thoughtit'd be the other way around.
No, I think it makes sensebecause the more safe and secure
you feel, the more you canThink about Pour out empathy to
other people.
And when?
Perfect sense, when you're anabsolutely, when you're not
completely.
Dan (10:16):
When you're worried about yourself, the last thing you
have is extra energy for anybodyelse.
Yeah, you, literally you knowour brains and our eyes, our
vision, everything kind ofcloses in so physically.
But also thinking about beingable to extend that in a
energetic way or, you know, avibe way type of thing, where
you're thinking about somebodyelse is if you are constantly
(10:39):
feeling like kind of closed inand being attached from the
outside or stare yeah you'regoing to can't go out very far
and see what's around you orfeel what's around you, or even
have the space to bring in otherinformation other than you
protecting yourself.
So, yeah, okay, I can see that.
Charles (10:58):
And it matters the kind of father that you are, too,
and how open you are to beingavailable for your kids'
emotional needs as well as theirphysical needs.
I was watching a movie, an oldmovie, and I don't watch a lot
of old movies because usually Ifind them kind of boring.
But I was going down the IMDbtop 250 and looking to see, okay
, what's high on this list thatI haven't ever seen before.
(11:19):
And so the other night mygirlfriend and I watched 12
Angry Men the original one fromlike 1957.
And it was really good.
I enjoyed it way more than Ithought that I would, but there
was one.
It's about 12 guys on a jurytrying to determine this
defendant's guilt or innocence,and there's this one guy on the
jury who is talking about hisson and he's like he said
(11:42):
something to the effect of youknow, I decided that I needed to
do whatever I had to to make myson, you know, grow up
essentially to be a real man.
I'd break him down in whatever,whatever way I had to to set
him right and make sure that heturned into a real, you know,
solid man.
And he hasn't talked to me intwo years.
But I did.
I did what it took and it'slike that's a I'm kind of
(12:09):
surprised for a movie set in1957 that was made in 1957 for
this guy to and it he was notthe hero of the story by any
means.
It was like this guy was veryemotionally volatile, very kind
of out of control with hisfeelings and it's like, yeah, he
, he had, he built therelationship with his son that
you know today.
All this time later, we wouldsay, yeah, that's exactly what
happens.
I mean, god, that's almost 70,70 years ago, right.
(12:32):
And yeah, it's like you decideyou're going to be the kind of
dad that's going to break yourson down to turn him into a real
man and, yeah, the result iseventually you're going to break
your son down to turn him intoa real man and, yeah, the result
is eventually you're going tohave a blow-up, he's going to
take a swing at you and thenhe's just never going to talk to
you again and that's that'swhat happened and yeah, so it's
not just it's not just thephysical presence that is
required to, oh, yeah, turn akid into an adult that anybody
(12:56):
wants to be around and anybodycan interact with and and you
know, have have a healthyrelationship with it's, it's you
.
You've got to be physicallyaround and you've got to be
emotionally around too, which,for most of us, is the harder,
the harder part of this mix ifyou're feeling left out when the
kid comes along, that issomething you should.
(13:18):
Probably the advice in the bookis talk to your partner about it
, and I would agree, talk toyour partner about it, but don't
just talk to your partner aboutit.
I mean, you should havesomebody in your life where you
can say hey, I'm feeling alittle bit neglected or unloved
or pushed to the side because ofher giving all her time to this
kid.
What should I do about that?
(13:40):
So you're going to want to havethat conversation with somebody
who knows how to answer thatquestion and I would say a
therapist would probably be agood person or a friend that has
the relationship with the wife,mother and children in his life
that you would want to have andsay I'm struggling with this,
how would you deal with it?
And then, after you've had theconversation with those people,
(14:01):
then have the conversation withyour partner to say, hey, this
is the way I'm feeling.
Some of my needs aren't gettingmet.
I understand that we've got topour a lot into this kid to keep
it healthy, safe, alive, butI'm still feeling this way.
What can we do about this?
That's that's a conversationyou shouldn't be scared to have.
But again, I wouldn't have thatconversation in a way where you
(14:31):
put an all on your partner tosay what are you going to change
so I can feel better.
It's got to be the whole teamcoming together to figure things
out wife or partner, as a woman, and not just now she's a
mother.
So I only treat her like amother, because you still need
to have a partner that you areromancing and taking out on
dates and having romanticinteractions with, and not just
and now she's made this changefrom the woman who meets my
(14:55):
needs to the baby factory,because that's that good either.
You don't want to find yourselfin that position.
It's important to recognize yes, I'm important as a father, I'm
important as a husband or aboyfriend, and she's also
important as a woman, as apartner, as a wife, as a mother.
And it does take a little bitmore abstract thinking and a
(15:18):
little bit more effort to beable to view people as all the
things that they are and notjust the one thing that you rely
on to get your needs met.
And yeah, that is not aposition I found myself in.
I've not dated somebody withkids and I've not had any
children, so that's not been achallenge, but I know your
girlfriend has kids.
(15:39):
Do you ever find yourselfhaving to check your own
behavior or expectations inorder to give and receive what
you need out of the relationship?
Dan (15:47):
Thankfully, Okay it's.
I feel very lucky because Idon't think that's common.
My girlfriend handles being amother and her own personal
interest better than I've seenanybody do it with or without
kids, I'll be honest with you,and it's impressive and it's
something that I really admirein her.
And she's also got endlessenergy and plans a lot of
(16:09):
variety of different things,both with the kids, both with me
, both all of us together.
So there's a lot of variety inour relationship and I love it.
And the the best part is thatit doesn't take much for her to
kind of, you know, move fromlike mother role to, you know,
(16:30):
to girlfriend role, and I thinkit might be different with
younger kids, like kids areolder so it's a little bit
easier, you know, she's nottalking to them like little kids
, she's not in that mental statewhere they're completely
hopeless and hopeless.
So there is less time, you know,in that respect.
So the fact that they'reteenagers is you know, makes it
(16:51):
a lot easier.
I think One thing though, as aguy, is if I was in a
relationship with somebody whohad very young kids, as a guy,
if I was in a relationship withsomebody who had very young kids
, I would try to come withsolutions and ideas of ways that
she could change back or shiftinto.
Oh, in and out of the differentmodes, in and out of the
(17:13):
different modes right, and notjust go to her and go hey,
listen, you know we need to.
You know I feel like you're amom all the, you're a mom all
the time and I miss you know,our, our relationship, our
partners.
Don't just come with that.
Come with some, some ideas andsome solutions, things that you
know that she enjoys, that youguys perhaps did when you were
one-on-one and then arrange foryou know the child to you know a
(17:34):
babysitter and you know, or orsomebody to watch the kid and
you know, or, or somebody towatch kid and you know.
Make it as easy as possible.
Like iron out all the details,like figure out, you know you
know, reserve the dance class orthe, the painting class you
guys could do together orwhatever, arrange everything.
All she has to do is say yes andhelp her get out of that mode.
Make it as easy as possible forher to do that, because if she
(17:58):
now has to arrange the you knowa babysitter and care for the
kid and may prepare meals orwhatever, that is, the more work
that she's got to do, the moredifficult it's going to be for
her and the more guilty shemight feel, you know.
You know taking that time awayfrom from the child.
So know that you know you'regoing to need to work you know,
(18:20):
pretty hard to keep that part ofthat relationship alive, I
think, and not just expect.
You know she's doing the workin both areas and, yeah,
obviously, as a good father youor you know a partner you'd also
be helping out too.
But I think most of the time itfalls on the mother and that's
where you really need to kind ofstep up and take as much off of
(18:42):
her plate as possible,especially if it's going to be
not related to her being amother, because that's, you know
, that's where her focus mostlikely is going to be.
You know 90% is going to be inthat motherhood role and and so
to step out of it is going to bean ask.
Charles (18:57):
Yeah, and there may be some.
There may be some skill you canleverage already in this area,
which you know if you, as mostof us in the West most men and
women have full-time jobs thatthey're trying to succeed at or
their own business or whatever,and you should probably have
some experience with.
Okay, she just came home fromher stressful day.
What are the things I can do toget her out of work mode into
(19:21):
relaxing at home mode?
And so, yeah, you may, you mayalready have some skills in that
area that you can then modifyand transition as you need to to
okay, how do I help her getfrom, you know, chaotic running
the household, keeping the kidshealthy, fed, educated, into
right this is a woman who Ienjoy doing fun things with, and
(19:42):
how do I help her get back intothat mind space?
Dan (19:45):
You know, and it's a great opportunity then to connect with
her by asking her about whather day was like and the things
that she needed to do duringthat day, and then you can take
an inventory of some of thesethings that she has to do on a
regular basis and figure outwhere you can maybe step in and
do some of those, those othertasks, to kind of lighten that
load right.
(20:05):
You might have some creativesolutions on maybe a new tool or
a gadget that might you know,might make things a little bit
easier.
You know some sort of maybevideo baby monitor or something
like that, or some setting upsome cameras in the playroom
where you didn't have thembefore.
Charles (20:20):
Whatever is like or services and tasks that you
might be able to outsourceexactly.
Dan (20:25):
He's like that as well, where it's for meal prep stuff,
whatever, whatever that is, soshe's not making dinner for you.
You've now gotten a service orwhatever, or you just even an
eats order right, just just,yeah, so great, you know.
Charles (20:40):
Great thoughts there what he does at the end of all
these chapters is he.
You know he does the.
You might be a hero if.
You might be a zero if and the.
The list of negatives is a lotlonger and I want to go through
those because these are.
These are some.
These are some things you canavoid doing.
That will will make thingsbetter if your partner is
exhausted and needs your help,but you don't take over or lend
a hand, that's a problem.
(21:01):
If you do things like competewith the baby or children for
attention which, yeah, that isdefinitely a sign of, I would
say, emotional immaturity but,look, you may be losing out on a
relationship, or at least itfeels like I'm losing out on
this person, this relationshipthat I had, and I need to claw
(21:22):
and fight to get some of thisattention back.
And that could find you doingsome things like just behaving
badly, acting sick or injured,when you're not actually and it
may feel real to you.
But look, these are things thatnew dads struggle with
sometimes, where it's like ifnobody's telling you, hey, your
(21:44):
life's going to change in theseways and you need to be ready
for it, then you could spiralout of control and start doing
some pretty wacky stuff, andthat's why it's so important to
have friends and coaches andtherapists in your life that can
say hey, listen, you knowyou're going to have some pretty
weird feelings and you're goingto feel pretty bad about some
of this stuff and you want to bea good dad, you want to be a
(22:04):
good husband, but you gotta, yougotta watch out for these
things, these thoughts thatcould turn into behaviors that
could turn into patterns thatare really going to make life
hard on you and your partner.
And so just have people in yourlife that you could talk to
about your experience.
Who's not just your partner,other people too.
If you exclude yourself orwithdraw from family life, if
(22:24):
you don't play with your baby oryour child, if you bail on the
family physically or emotionallyagain, these are all things you
might be a zero if you think itshould be all about you, even
after children enter therelationship, if you're not kind
or respectful of your partneror her slash your children, if
you comment about a woman'sweight while she's pregnant or
after the baby comes yeah, there, we've said this before there.
(22:48):
There are just such a limitednumber of times where the best
plan is to make a comment aboutsomebody's weight or appearance.
It's really if you're notsaying something nice, you
shouldn't be saying anything atall.
Yeah, people know whatcondition they're in and they
don't need to hear it fromexternal sources.
Dan (23:09):
And more often than not, they're beating themselves up
much more and much more oftenthan the comments they're
getting from everywhere else.
Just think about how you talk,about how we all think about
ourselves.
It's nasty, right.
And you know, what breaks meout of that pattern of like,
that self-negative talk, is whatwould you be talking, you know,
(23:30):
what would you say to a friendwho also is Right, right, just
take yourself out and be like,oh my God, god, I'm being a jerk
to myself.
I would never say this to afriend, I would never say this
to somebody.
I care about why, you know, whyam I saying this?
And it, you know, as soon as Ikind of come to that realization
, gives me a, a break and I'mable to at least shift my
(23:50):
thought, at least for a littlebit, you know, and stop beating
myself up a little.
Charles (23:53):
Yeah, and so turn that into you know, and as a man you
might say well, listen, if I, ifmy wife told me I was carrying
an extra 20 pounds, you knowthat wouldn't really bother me,
so I don't see why it wouldbother her.
Like, translate it to okay,what is the thing that you would
take the most personally?
If she came to you and she waslike you know what, life would
be a lot easier if you can makean extra couple, you know, five
(24:14):
or 10 bucks an hour.
This is harder than it has tobe.
If you could go out there andearn a little bit more, life
would be easier.
Or boy sex would sure be a lotbetter if your penis was two or
three inches longer, or whatever.
The thing is that you would takethe most personally.
It would bother you the most.
Go ahead, assume that's how shefeels about her weight.
Don't say anything, becausethere's a good chance that that
is the thing that would botherher the most.
(24:35):
Or, you know I mean right upthere would be.
You know, I think if you put alittle more work into it you
could be a better mom and ourkids would be happier and
healthier if you worked a littleharder.
I mean that and her weight areprobably competing for number
one and number two all the timeabout what would be the worst
thing for her to hear.
So don't say those things Someof the other things on the list.
(24:55):
If you don't listen when yourpartner shares her concerns
about being a mother or aboutyour children's welfare which
the biggest sort of thing tolook out for in yourself is if
she's got a concern about howshe's mothering the kids or
about something that could beaffecting their health or
wellness just giving a nah, it'sfine, you're doing fine.
(25:19):
I mean, you need to.
You need to act as if you areactively engaged in the concerns
that she has, whether it'sabout herself or about kids or
whatever.
Take it seriously, act likeit's, don't just, oh, it'll be
fine, you don't, yeah, there'snothing to worry about,
definitely go in with.
So it sounds like what you'resaying is blah blah blah is
(25:41):
bothering you, or you'reconcerned about blah blah blah.
Is that correct?
And let her verify that.
Yes, you, you have heard hercorrectly.
And then say okay, how do you,how do you think we should
address this?
Dan (25:55):
exactly just google give listening skills, follow that,
practice that and you'll already, you know, make a good
impression because at least, atleast, even if you're not
processing and rememberingeverything, you're showing that
you care enough to actually payattention and listen to her.
You're restating what she'stalking about, yeah, at a
(26:18):
minimum, you're allowing her tofeel heard, and it goes with not
just with women, I meaneverybody in general, anybody,
anybody you care about.
Yeah.
You want to, you want to treatthat way.
I know I come from this too isjust, a lot of times you're
thinking about what you're goingto say next.
You know, especially on thispodcast, no, so so it's like so
it's very difficult to reallyprocess and take that in, and it
takes and it takes practice todo it.
(26:39):
It does get easier, um, and,and you're not going to forget
what you have to say, if it's,if it's that yeah, and yeah, you
could like.
Charles (26:47):
The level one mistake is dismissing it.
Oh, it's not a big deal, it'snothing for you to worry about.
Level two is which is a littlebetter is yeah, that is
something to worry about.
That's a big deal.
Here's how I think we shouldfix it.
And level three is the fullactive listening of hey.
It sounds like, if I'm hearingyou correctly, you're concerned
about xyz.
That sounds tough.
That sounds difficult.
(27:08):
I understand that it'sbothering you.
Where do you want thisconversation to go next?
Dan (27:12):
yeah, that's the thing is.
She just might've wanted tovent and not for a solution.
But she might be looking for asolution, but then let her ask
for that.
Charles (27:20):
Right, exactly, yeah.
And then the last thing on thelist is you might be zero if you
don't talk to your partner, ifyou're feeling left out or
pushed aside after the birth ofa baby and again I'll reiterate
what I said before is I thinkthat is a conversation you
should have with your partner,but I don't think the first time
(27:42):
you ever verbalize that concernshould be with your partner.
I think you should bounce thatoff somebody else who is able to
give you the same kind ofactive listening we were just
talking about, where you say hey, dan, that sounds tough.
I can imagine that feeling likeyou've been pushed aside for
this baby is difficult and, yeah, I would probably feel insecure
, uncertain, upset, just likeyou do, if I was in that
(28:03):
position.
Now, what do you think you cando to soothe yourself in this
situation?
Have that conversation with atrusted friend or a therapist or
a minister first and bouncesome ideas off them, practice
putting that kind of a feelingout there again.
So you got to pick somebodythat's going to be, that's going
(28:23):
to be able to hear you and besupportive, and then, once
you've done that, then share itwith your partner.
I just don't think.
I don't think your partnerdeserves the 1.0 version of that
conversation.
You know what I'm saying.
I don't think your partnerdeserves the 1.0 version of that
conversation.
You know what I'm saying.
I don't think she deserves thealpha or the beta.
I think she deserves theproduction version of that
conversation.
So have people in your lifethat you can bounce concerns and
(28:43):
issues like that off of firstand then share it with your
partner.
So I'm definitely not sayingdon't share it with your partner
.
I'm saying it would be best ifyou could share it with somebody
else first, get some supportand some encouragement from that
somebody else and then springit on your partner and you'll be
better at delivering it andbecause you'll be better at
delivering it, they'll be betterat hearing it and responding to
it.
So that's where we are for thischapter.
(29:05):
It was a short one, butdefinitely one that's important
because I think a lot of guyseven though you and I haven't
had to deal with it in the waythat some do where it's like
boom, a brand new person comesback from the hospital and now
they live in your house with youI can see how that would be
difficult and I could see how Iwould be challenged to deal with
that situation.
I like to think that I would beable to set my mind to it, have
(29:25):
the resources in place that Iwould need and work my way
through in a healthy way.
But I also see it from the yeah.
I would probably feel like Iwas.
Where did all this attention?
I was getting go.
It's now.
I got to share it with somebodyand, yeah, that could.
I could have some challengeswith that.
I think I'd be able to make itthrough.
Obviously, I don't think I'd belike that's it.
(29:47):
I'm moving to Alaska.
Good luck, hope you can raisethis kid.
But it would be something that Iwould have to work through with
my trusted friends, with mytherapist, with my men's group,
and say, hey, life has changedfor me and I feel like I'm
handling most of it, but hereare the problems that I'm, here
are the difficulties that I amexperiencing.
What do you think I should do?
And just having that communityaround you to support you and
(30:11):
encourage you is super important.
So we'll be that for you in aslimited a way as we can, to say,
yeah, if you're having somecomplicated thoughts about the
new kid in your life, that'sokay and that's normal, and here
are some healthy ways to dealwith it.
So that's where we're at.
We got one chapter left calledstaying together loving a woman
for a lifetime, and then we willbe done.
(30:31):
I'm looking forward to thealbert einstein related parts of
this chapter, because I learnedI learned some stuff about old
albert that really threw me fora loop me too.
Dan (30:42):
It's so funny how people are so smart in some ways and so
dumb and others yes, and andhow?
Charles (30:48):
just because he's so smart, you know, in the realm of
mathematics and physics, likethere are a lot of little quotes
out there that einstein hasabout relationships and life and
stuff like that, and we'rewilling to give them all this
weight because he's alberteinstein.
But then when you find out whathis relationship with his wife
was actually like, it's like Idon't need to listen to albert
(31:09):
einstein's advice in anythingexcept particle physics from
this point going forward,because he was pretty wacky.
And I would say the sameapplies to Stephen Hawking,
whatever sports star orcelebrity that you're into.
It's like listen, you, you knowthem because they got real good
at this one thing.
So don't automatically assignto them expertise in some other
(31:33):
areas just because they werereally good at this one thing.
And yeah, I look forward togetting into this story.
I'm going to do a little bit ofresearch outside of those books
too to find out what else isout there about albert and his
marriage.
I feel like this could be alittle bit more than what we
learned in this book, evencrazier than what we learned in
chapter 15 of this book.
So I look forward to gettinginto that with you next time.
(31:54):
Dan sounds good, sir.
All right.
Forward to getting into thatwith you next time.
Dan Sounds good, sir, all right, thanks everybody, we'll talk
to you next time.
Thank you so much for listeningto our entire episode from
start to finish, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it.
We know you have a lot ofpodcasts you could choose from,
and we are thrilled that youpicked ours.
Please check out our websiteagain, mindfullymasculinecom,
for all of our episodes as wellas anything else.
We
You might feel a little neglected or displaced when
kids come into a woman's life.
When you've been the primaryrelationship in her life as her
romantic partner, well, whenkids arrive, you're going to
feel less like the primaryrelationship in her life, and
that's kind of the way that it'ssupposed to work.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
(00:21):
This is Charles.
Back to the Mindfully MasculinePodcast.
This is Charles.
All right, in this episode, danand I will continue to discuss
the Man's Guide to Women by theGottmans, and this chapter is
all about motherhood and livingin a relationship and probably a
house with a mother.
Topics that will be coveredinclude impact of children on
(00:43):
relationships, challenges ofbalancing romantic relationships
and parenting, common mistakesin relationships after children.
Role of fathers in childdevelopment.
Emotional challenges forfathers.
Maintaining romantic connectionafter children, avoiding
negative behaviors inrelationships, active listening
and communication and supportsystems for fathers.
(01:05):
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find all of our episodes,audio, video and whatever other
stuff we want to share.
Thanks and enjoy.
Dan (01:17):
Good afternoon, sir.
I think we finally got it.
Charles (01:19):
Yes, yes, as I said in the last intro that we are not
keeping.
I am trying some new thingswith the video in our studio
here and, as a result, we'restruggling through.
While we're in the in-betweenphase, I replaced my camera and
ordered a replacement camera foryou.
That has not yet arrived, sowe're making do with the webcam
(01:43):
you use for your normal officetasks, and it's a little
complicated, but we'll be therethis time next week.
Everything should be herepermanently.
Dan (01:52):
Did you imagine trying to do this with Amazon?
Honestly, like how long we'dhave to wait for stuff, how long
it takes to replace stuff,probably having an argument
every time we needed to replacesomething.
You know, going back to thestore and like needing to prove,
and there's also like ifsomething didn't work, or it did
you know?
Charles (02:09):
all right, let's jump into our material.
We're still talking about theman's guide to women.
We've only got two chaptersleft and then we'll be done and
onto our next book.
This chapter is about mothernature, specifically meaning the
mother part of yourrelationship and what her
relationship with her children'slike, what your relationship
(02:30):
with your children's like andwhat your relationship to her
because of the children is goingto be like as two men without
children in our lives.
Well, your girlfriend has kids,but you don't have any of your
own.
I don't have any of my own, mygirlfriend doesn't have any of
her own.
So we can blow through thischapter with no guilt, because
it doesn't apply to us, butwe'll try to share the important
(02:52):
parts that some of ourlisteners may get some value out
of.
One of the things that DrGottman and others emphasizes in
this chapter is that if you aregoing to have a relationship
with a woman who is or maybecome a mother, then it's
pretty important to understandwhat's going to change and what
(03:13):
life's going to be like having amother and or a mother's
children in your house, justunderstanding how her priorities
will change or be impacted bythe fact that she's got little
ones that she's responsible forkeeping alive and turning into
useful members of society.
(03:34):
So one of the things to keep inmind is that you might feel a
little neglected or displaced.
When kids come into a woman'slife when you've been the
primary relationship in her lifeas her romantic partner, well,
when kids arrive, you're goingto feel less like the primary
relationship in her life, andthat's kind of the way that's
(03:57):
supposed to work, based onevolution and biology, and I
mean logically.
Dan (04:03):
Logically speaking, think about it for itself right, yeah,
yeah.
Charles (04:08):
Human babies are especially bad at that compared
to other animals.
Dan (04:11):
Correct and so it needs that level of of care and
attention and you don't CorrectExactly and and and.
But that absolutely introducesa lot of challenges and a lot of
times it's a challenge to tryto find that balance between,
you know, having that romanticrelationship and attending to
(04:33):
needs for the relationship, aswell as also balancing and and
and being able to take care ofthat kid in the right way, right
, so that does become a good,you know.
Contributing member of society.
Yeah, that kid in the right way,right, so that does become a
good, you know, contributingmember of society, yeah, and
doing in a way where you knowthe woman has enough energy to
do both, I mean that's a crazyamount of work.
(04:54):
Just thinking about that, nothaving to do, having to do it
myself, just knowing peoplewho've done it, it's holy cow.
It blows my mind about like andthen be able to like, switch
your, your, your mode ofthinking too.
Like the way you're, you'reinteracting with a, you know, an
infant or a child is a lotdifferent than the way you
interact with an adult, and alot of times there's going to be
(05:17):
some crossover, you know, somebleed over, I think, and it that
just adds so many morechallenges.
So that's why, when people arelike, oh, we're going to have
kids because the relationship isneeding something, they're
trying to fix something.
Charles (05:33):
People will often express that in plain language,
but we see so many couples tryto pull that off, where they
think that, well, therelationship's a little rocky so
we should probably get married,or the relationship the
marriage is a little rocky, sowe should probably have kids.
Dan (05:48):
I think all that is is a distraction from the problems
that are happening.
Right, it's a way to take yourmind off of it, because this is
oh no, focus on the wedding orthe marriage or the kids or
whatever else, or this new petthat we got or whatever.
So the dressing issues thatyou've got, you're figuring okay
, we don't want to rock the boator address them because it
could mean the end of therelationship.
(06:09):
So instead we'll kind ofdistract ourselves with
something else that we both kindof like and then maybe we'll
come together because we bothlike that thing and now we have
a new way of connecting.
Charles (06:19):
But I don't know if that works, which is, yeah, it
definitely doesn't, and it seemsintuitive.
I don't know if that works,which is, yeah, it definitely
doesn't, and it seems intuitive.
I mean, I know very littleabout home construction or
building.
But if you came to me and said,charles, I've been having a lot
of trouble with the foundationof my house, so I think what I
need to do is add a second story, I would say, dan, I know
nothing about nothing when itcomes to building houses.
(06:40):
That seems like a pretty shittyidea.
But yeah, we do make thatmistake in our relationship.
Dan (06:46):
Sometimes, yeah, and I think it's different.
You know, when we're talkingabout like a hobby right,
something that right like, oh,we're both going to join the
bowling team or we're going togo and we're going to have, you
know, we're going to take salsalessons or something like that,
right, there's a lot lessobligation.
That and stress that comes fromthat.
So, yeah, I'm not saying don'tfind things do in common, but
just look at the other personmight not be on the list yeah
(07:07):
look at look at all the thingsinvolved in taking care of that
other active.
Charles (07:12):
Yeah, and I would say you know, if you're already
struggling with some feelingsabout you know how your needs
are being met or how loved youfeel, or whatever.
I mean, if you're strugglingwith any issues of what I'll
just call immaturity your own oryour partner's it's you had a
kid to the mix and it's veryeasy to go to wait a second.
(07:32):
So now, so now this kid's shownup that you made with her and
you're telling me she's going toneed more of me and I'm going
to get even less in return.
Again, there's, there's a kidhere that you're both ideally
investing in and trying to keephealthy and safe and
well-adjusted and educated.
But yeah, that is kind of whathappens.
(07:53):
It's like you're going to haveto pour more into your partner
and this child and for a while,you're going to get less in
return from both of them.
And so, if you don't have apretty good understanding and a
level of confidence of, yes,this is expected, this is what
I'm supposed to do, this is whatI'm supposed to get back, it's
(08:15):
always the unpleasant surprisesthat affect us the most.
If you can go into itunderstanding, yeah, this is
going to require a bit moreinvestment on my part in both my
wife or partner and the kid,and they're neither one of them
are going to be in a place togive that back to me and that's
just how it's supposed to work,then great.
But if you're like this isunfair, I'm not going to stand
(08:36):
for this Then you're going tofind yourself in a in a world of
hurt.
And so, yeah, know that whenkids come into the mix either
either new ones or you'vestarted dating someone or
getting seriously involved withsomeone who already has kids
like, yeah, you, you are goingto have to invest in supporting
her as a mother and supportingthe children in whatever way is
(08:57):
appropriate given the situation,and you're not going to get as
much back as it feels likeyou're putting in.
That's's how it's supposed tohappen and you should get used
to that.
And also, you know it's notjust you supporting her.
You should understand that youplay a pretty critical role in
the child's development.
Whether it's your biologicalkid or you adopt a kid, or it's
(09:19):
a stepchild from her previousrelationship.
Your amount of involvement intheir life and what you're
willing to invest in them isgoing to have some real serious
impacts on what the outcome iswhen they stop being a kid and
start being an adult, and hegoes down the list of some of
the outcomes you can expect.
I mean kids who have dads thatare around and active in their
(09:42):
life are going to become betterpeople and healthier people and
happier people than what Ithought was interesting was that
the studies showed that theybecame more empathetic yes from
having fathers around and I youknow, and that just kind of that
was just interesting to me, whythat is yeah
(10:02):
I would say I would have thoughtit'd be the other way around.
No, I think it makes sensebecause the more safe and secure
you feel, the more you canThink about Pour out empathy to
other people.
And when?
Perfect sense, when you're anabsolutely, when you're not
completely.
Dan (10:16):
When you're worried about yourself, the last thing you
have is extra energy for anybodyelse.
Yeah, you, literally you knowour brains and our eyes, our
vision, everything kind ofcloses in so physically.
But also thinking about beingable to extend that in a
energetic way or, you know, avibe way type of thing, where
you're thinking about somebodyelse is if you are constantly
(10:39):
feeling like kind of closed inand being attached from the
outside or stare yeah you'regoing to can't go out very far
and see what's around you orfeel what's around you, or even
have the space to bring in otherinformation other than you
protecting yourself.
So, yeah, okay, I can see that.
Charles (10:58):
And it matters the kind of father that you are, too,
and how open you are to beingavailable for your kids'
emotional needs as well as theirphysical needs.
I was watching a movie, an oldmovie, and I don't watch a lot
of old movies because usually Ifind them kind of boring.
But I was going down the IMDbtop 250 and looking to see, okay
, what's high on this list thatI haven't ever seen before.
(11:19):
And so the other night mygirlfriend and I watched 12
Angry Men the original one fromlike 1957.
And it was really good.
I enjoyed it way more than Ithought that I would, but there
was one.
It's about 12 guys on a jurytrying to determine this
defendant's guilt or innocence,and there's this one guy on the
jury who is talking about hisson and he's like he said
(11:42):
something to the effect of youknow, I decided that I needed to
do whatever I had to to make myson, you know, grow up
essentially to be a real man.
I'd break him down in whatever,whatever way I had to to set
him right and make sure that heturned into a real, you know,
solid man.
And he hasn't talked to me intwo years.
But I did.
I did what it took and it'slike that's a I'm kind of
(12:09):
surprised for a movie set in1957 that was made in 1957 for
this guy to and it he was notthe hero of the story by any
means.
It was like this guy was veryemotionally volatile, very kind
of out of control with hisfeelings and it's like, yeah, he
, he had, he built therelationship with his son that
you know today.
All this time later, we wouldsay, yeah, that's exactly what
happens.
I mean, god, that's almost 70,70 years ago, right.
(12:32):
And yeah, it's like you decideyou're going to be the kind of
dad that's going to break yourson down to turn him into a real
man and, yeah, the result iseventually you're going to break
your son down to turn him intoa real man and, yeah, the result
is eventually you're going tohave a blow-up, he's going to
take a swing at you and thenhe's just never going to talk to
you again and that's that'swhat happened and yeah, so it's
not just it's not just thephysical presence that is
required to, oh, yeah, turn akid into an adult that anybody
(12:56):
wants to be around and anybodycan interact with and and you
know, have have a healthyrelationship with it's, it's you
.
You've got to be physicallyaround and you've got to be
emotionally around too, which,for most of us, is the harder,
the harder part of this mix ifyou're feeling left out when the
kid comes along, that issomething you should.
(13:18):
Probably the advice in the bookis talk to your partner about it
, and I would agree, talk toyour partner about it, but don't
just talk to your partner aboutit.
I mean, you should havesomebody in your life where you
can say hey, I'm feeling alittle bit neglected or unloved
or pushed to the side because ofher giving all her time to this
kid.
What should I do about that?
(13:40):
So you're going to want to havethat conversation with somebody
who knows how to answer thatquestion and I would say a
therapist would probably be agood person or a friend that has
the relationship with the wife,mother and children in his life
that you would want to have andsay I'm struggling with this,
how would you deal with it?
And then, after you've had theconversation with those people,
(14:01):
then have the conversation withyour partner to say, hey, this
is the way I'm feeling.
Some of my needs aren't gettingmet.
I understand that we've got topour a lot into this kid to keep
it healthy, safe, alive, butI'm still feeling this way.
What can we do about this?
That's that's a conversationyou shouldn't be scared to have.
But again, I wouldn't have thatconversation in a way where you
(14:31):
put an all on your partner tosay what are you going to change
so I can feel better.
It's got to be the whole teamcoming together to figure things
out wife or partner, as a woman, and not just now she's a
mother.
So I only treat her like amother, because you still need
to have a partner that you areromancing and taking out on
dates and having romanticinteractions with, and not just
and now she's made this changefrom the woman who meets my
(14:55):
needs to the baby factory,because that's that good either.
You don't want to find yourselfin that position.
It's important to recognize yes, I'm important as a father, I'm
important as a husband or aboyfriend, and she's also
important as a woman, as apartner, as a wife, as a mother.
And it does take a little bitmore abstract thinking and a
(15:18):
little bit more effort to beable to view people as all the
things that they are and notjust the one thing that you rely
on to get your needs met.
And yeah, that is not aposition I found myself in.
I've not dated somebody withkids and I've not had any
children, so that's not been achallenge, but I know your
girlfriend has kids.
(15:39):
Do you ever find yourselfhaving to check your own
behavior or expectations inorder to give and receive what
you need out of the relationship?
Dan (15:47):
Thankfully, Okay it's.
I feel very lucky because Idon't think that's common.
My girlfriend handles being amother and her own personal
interest better than I've seenanybody do it with or without
kids, I'll be honest with you,and it's impressive and it's
something that I really admirein her.
And she's also got endlessenergy and plans a lot of
(16:09):
variety of different things,both with the kids, both with me
, both all of us together.
So there's a lot of variety inour relationship and I love it.
And the the best part is thatit doesn't take much for her to
kind of, you know, move fromlike mother role to, you know,
(16:30):
to girlfriend role, and I thinkit might be different with
younger kids, like kids areolder so it's a little bit
easier, you know, she's nottalking to them like little kids
, she's not in that mental statewhere they're completely
hopeless and hopeless.
So there is less time, you know,in that respect.
So the fact that they'reteenagers is you know, makes it
(16:51):
a lot easier.
I think One thing though, as aguy, is if I was in a
relationship with somebody whohad very young kids, as a guy,
if I was in a relationship withsomebody who had very young kids
, I would try to come withsolutions and ideas of ways that
she could change back or shiftinto.
Oh, in and out of the differentmodes, in and out of the
(17:13):
different modes right, and notjust go to her and go hey,
listen, you know we need to.
You know I feel like you're amom all the, you're a mom all
the time and I miss you know,our, our relationship, our
partners.
Don't just come with that.
Come with some, some ideas andsome solutions, things that you
know that she enjoys, that youguys perhaps did when you were
one-on-one and then arrange foryou know the child to you know a
(17:34):
babysitter and you know, or orsomebody to watch the kid and
you know, or, or somebody towatch kid and you know.
Make it as easy as possible.
Like iron out all the details,like figure out, you know you
know, reserve the dance class orthe, the painting class you
guys could do together orwhatever, arrange everything.
All she has to do is say yes andhelp her get out of that mode.
Make it as easy as possible forher to do that, because if she
(17:58):
now has to arrange the you knowa babysitter and care for the
kid and may prepare meals orwhatever, that is, the more work
that she's got to do, the moredifficult it's going to be for
her and the more guilty shemight feel, you know.
You know taking that time awayfrom from the child.
So know that you know you'regoing to need to work you know,
(18:20):
pretty hard to keep that part ofthat relationship alive, I
think, and not just expect.
You know she's doing the workin both areas and, yeah,
obviously, as a good father youor you know a partner you'd also
be helping out too.
But I think most of the time itfalls on the mother and that's
where you really need to kind ofstep up and take as much off of
(18:42):
her plate as possible,especially if it's going to be
not related to her being amother, because that's, you know
, that's where her focus mostlikely is going to be.
You know 90% is going to be inthat motherhood role and and so
to step out of it is going to bean ask.
Charles (18:57):
Yeah, and there may be some.
There may be some skill you canleverage already in this area,
which you know if you, as mostof us in the West most men and
women have full-time jobs thatthey're trying to succeed at or
their own business or whatever,and you should probably have
some experience with.
Okay, she just came home fromher stressful day.
What are the things I can do toget her out of work mode into
(19:21):
relaxing at home mode?
And so, yeah, you may, you mayalready have some skills in that
area that you can then modifyand transition as you need to to
okay, how do I help her getfrom, you know, chaotic running
the household, keeping the kidshealthy, fed, educated, into
right this is a woman who Ienjoy doing fun things with, and
(19:42):
how do I help her get back intothat mind space?
Dan (19:45):
You know, and it's a great opportunity then to connect with
her by asking her about whather day was like and the things
that she needed to do duringthat day, and then you can take
an inventory of some of thesethings that she has to do on a
regular basis and figure outwhere you can maybe step in and
do some of those, those othertasks, to kind of lighten that
load right.
(20:05):
You might have some creativesolutions on maybe a new tool or
a gadget that might you know,might make things a little bit
easier.
You know some sort of maybevideo baby monitor or something
like that, or some setting upsome cameras in the playroom
where you didn't have thembefore.
Charles (20:20):
Whatever is like or services and tasks that you
might be able to outsourceexactly.
Dan (20:25):
He's like that as well, where it's for meal prep stuff,
whatever, whatever that is, soshe's not making dinner for you.
You've now gotten a service orwhatever, or you just even an
eats order right, just just,yeah, so great, you know.
Charles (20:40):
Great thoughts there what he does at the end of all
these chapters is he.
You know he does the.
You might be a hero if.
You might be a zero if and the.
The list of negatives is a lotlonger and I want to go through
those because these are.
These are some.
These are some things you canavoid doing.
That will will make thingsbetter if your partner is
exhausted and needs your help,but you don't take over or lend
a hand, that's a problem.
(21:01):
If you do things like competewith the baby or children for
attention which, yeah, that isdefinitely a sign of, I would
say, emotional immaturity but,look, you may be losing out on a
relationship, or at least itfeels like I'm losing out on
this person, this relationshipthat I had, and I need to claw
(21:22):
and fight to get some of thisattention back.
And that could find you doingsome things like just behaving
badly, acting sick or injured,when you're not actually and it
may feel real to you.
But look, these are things thatnew dads struggle with
sometimes, where it's like ifnobody's telling you, hey, your
(21:44):
life's going to change in theseways and you need to be ready
for it, then you could spiralout of control and start doing
some pretty wacky stuff, andthat's why it's so important to
have friends and coaches andtherapists in your life that can
say hey, listen, you knowyou're going to have some pretty
weird feelings and you're goingto feel pretty bad about some
of this stuff and you want to bea good dad, you want to be a
(22:04):
good husband, but you gotta, yougotta watch out for these
things, these thoughts thatcould turn into behaviors that
could turn into patterns thatare really going to make life
hard on you and your partner.
And so just have people in yourlife that you could talk to
about your experience.
Who's not just your partner,other people too.
If you exclude yourself orwithdraw from family life, if
(22:24):
you don't play with your baby oryour child, if you bail on the
family physically or emotionallyagain, these are all things you
might be a zero if you think itshould be all about you, even
after children enter therelationship, if you're not kind
or respectful of your partneror her slash your children, if
you comment about a woman'sweight while she's pregnant or
after the baby comes yeah, there, we've said this before there.
(22:48):
There are just such a limitednumber of times where the best
plan is to make a comment aboutsomebody's weight or appearance.
It's really if you're notsaying something nice, you
shouldn't be saying anything atall.
Yeah, people know whatcondition they're in and they
don't need to hear it fromexternal sources.
Dan (23:09):
And more often than not, they're beating themselves up
much more and much more oftenthan the comments they're
getting from everywhere else.
Just think about how you talk,about how we all think about
ourselves.
It's nasty, right.
And you know, what breaks meout of that pattern of like,
that self-negative talk, is whatwould you be talking, you know,
(23:30):
what would you say to a friendwho also is Right, right, just
take yourself out and be like,oh my God, god, I'm being a jerk
to myself.
I would never say this to afriend, I would never say this
to somebody.
I care about why, you know, whyam I saying this?
And it, you know, as soon as Ikind of come to that realization
, gives me a, a break and I'mable to at least shift my
(23:50):
thought, at least for a littlebit, you know, and stop beating
myself up a little.
Charles (23:53):
Yeah, and so turn that into you know, and as a man you
might say well, listen, if I, ifmy wife told me I was carrying
an extra 20 pounds, you knowthat wouldn't really bother me,
so I don't see why it wouldbother her.
Like, translate it to okay,what is the thing that you would
take the most personally?
If she came to you and she waslike you know what, life would
be a lot easier if you can makean extra couple, you know, five
(24:14):
or 10 bucks an hour.
This is harder than it has tobe.
If you could go out there andearn a little bit more, life
would be easier.
Or boy sex would sure be a lotbetter if your penis was two or
three inches longer, or whatever.
The thing is that you would takethe most personally.
It would bother you the most.
Go ahead, assume that's how shefeels about her weight.
Don't say anything, becausethere's a good chance that that
is the thing that would botherher the most.
(24:35):
Or, you know I mean right upthere would be.
You know, I think if you put alittle more work into it you
could be a better mom and ourkids would be happier and
healthier if you worked a littleharder.
I mean that and her weight areprobably competing for number
one and number two all the timeabout what would be the worst
thing for her to hear.
So don't say those things Someof the other things on the list.
(24:55):
If you don't listen when yourpartner shares her concerns
about being a mother or aboutyour children's welfare which
the biggest sort of thing tolook out for in yourself is if
she's got a concern about howshe's mothering the kids or
about something that could beaffecting their health or
wellness just giving a nah, it'sfine, you're doing fine.
(25:19):
I mean, you need to.
You need to act as if you areactively engaged in the concerns
that she has, whether it'sabout herself or about kids or
whatever.
Take it seriously, act likeit's, don't just, oh, it'll be
fine, you don't, yeah, there'snothing to worry about,
definitely go in with.
So it sounds like what you'resaying is blah blah blah is
(25:41):
bothering you, or you'reconcerned about blah blah blah.
Is that correct?
And let her verify that.
Yes, you, you have heard hercorrectly.
And then say okay, how do you,how do you think we should
address this?
Dan (25:55):
exactly just google give listening skills, follow that,
practice that and you'll already, you know, make a good
impression because at least, atleast, even if you're not
processing and rememberingeverything, you're showing that
you care enough to actually payattention and listen to her.
You're restating what she'stalking about, yeah, at a
(26:18):
minimum, you're allowing her tofeel heard, and it goes with not
just with women, I meaneverybody in general, anybody,
anybody you care about.
Yeah.
You want to, you want to treatthat way.
I know I come from this too isjust, a lot of times you're
thinking about what you're goingto say next.
You know, especially on thispodcast, no, so so it's like so
it's very difficult to reallyprocess and take that in, and it
takes and it takes practice todo it.
(26:39):
It does get easier, um, and,and you're not going to forget
what you have to say, if it's,if it's that yeah, and yeah, you
could like.
Charles (26:47):
The level one mistake is dismissing it.
Oh, it's not a big deal, it'snothing for you to worry about.
Level two is which is a littlebetter is yeah, that is
something to worry about.
That's a big deal.
Here's how I think we shouldfix it.
And level three is the fullactive listening of hey.
It sounds like, if I'm hearingyou correctly, you're concerned
about xyz.
That sounds tough.
That sounds difficult.
(27:08):
I understand that it'sbothering you.
Where do you want thisconversation to go next?
Dan (27:12):
yeah, that's the thing is.
She just might've wanted tovent and not for a solution.
But she might be looking for asolution, but then let her ask
for that.
Charles (27:20):
Right, exactly, yeah.
And then the last thing on thelist is you might be zero if you
don't talk to your partner, ifyou're feeling left out or
pushed aside after the birth ofa baby and again I'll reiterate
what I said before is I thinkthat is a conversation you
should have with your partner,but I don't think the first time
(27:42):
you ever verbalize that concernshould be with your partner.
I think you should bounce thatoff somebody else who is able to
give you the same kind ofactive listening we were just
talking about, where you say hey, dan, that sounds tough.
I can imagine that feeling likeyou've been pushed aside for
this baby is difficult and, yeah, I would probably feel insecure
, uncertain, upset, just likeyou do, if I was in that
(28:03):
position.
Now, what do you think you cando to soothe yourself in this
situation?
Have that conversation with atrusted friend or a therapist or
a minister first and bouncesome ideas off them, practice
putting that kind of a feelingout there again.
So you got to pick somebodythat's going to be, that's going
(28:23):
to be able to hear you and besupportive, and then, once
you've done that, then share itwith your partner.
I just don't think.
I don't think your partnerdeserves the 1.0 version of that
conversation.
You know what I'm saying.
I don't think your partnerdeserves the 1.0 version of that
conversation.
You know what I'm saying.
I don't think she deserves thealpha or the beta.
I think she deserves theproduction version of that
conversation.
So have people in your lifethat you can bounce concerns and
(28:43):
issues like that off of firstand then share it with your
partner.
So I'm definitely not sayingdon't share it with your partner
.
I'm saying it would be best ifyou could share it with somebody
else first, get some supportand some encouragement from that
somebody else and then springit on your partner and you'll be
better at delivering it andbecause you'll be better at
delivering it, they'll be betterat hearing it and responding to
it.
So that's where we are for thischapter.
(29:05):
It was a short one, butdefinitely one that's important
because I think a lot of guyseven though you and I haven't
had to deal with it in the waythat some do where it's like
boom, a brand new person comesback from the hospital and now
they live in your house with youI can see how that would be
difficult and I could see how Iwould be challenged to deal with
that situation.
I like to think that I would beable to set my mind to it, have
(29:25):
the resources in place that Iwould need and work my way
through in a healthy way.
But I also see it from the yeah.
I would probably feel like Iwas.
Where did all this attention?
I was getting go.
It's now.
I got to share it with somebodyand, yeah, that could.
I could have some challengeswith that.
I think I'd be able to make itthrough.
Obviously, I don't think I'd belike that's it.
(29:47):
I'm moving to Alaska.
Good luck, hope you can raisethis kid.
But it would be something that Iwould have to work through with
my trusted friends, with mytherapist, with my men's group,
and say, hey, life has changedfor me and I feel like I'm
handling most of it, but hereare the problems that I'm, here
are the difficulties that I amexperiencing.
What do you think I should do?
And just having that communityaround you to support you and
(30:11):
encourage you is super important.
So we'll be that for you in aslimited a way as we can, to say,
yeah, if you're having somecomplicated thoughts about the
new kid in your life, that'sokay and that's normal, and here
are some healthy ways to dealwith it.
So that's where we're at.
We got one chapter left calledstaying together loving a woman
for a lifetime, and then we willbe done.
(30:31):
I'm looking forward to thealbert einstein related parts of
this chapter, because I learnedI learned some stuff about old
albert that really threw me fora loop me too.
Dan (30:42):
It's so funny how people are so smart in some ways and so
dumb and others yes, and andhow?
Charles (30:48):
just because he's so smart, you know, in the realm of
mathematics and physics, likethere are a lot of little quotes
out there that einstein hasabout relationships and life and
stuff like that, and we'rewilling to give them all this
weight because he's alberteinstein.
But then when you find out whathis relationship with his wife
was actually like, it's like Idon't need to listen to albert
(31:09):
einstein's advice in anythingexcept particle physics from
this point going forward,because he was pretty wacky.
And I would say the sameapplies to Stephen Hawking,
whatever sports star orcelebrity that you're into.
It's like listen, you, you knowthem because they got real good
at this one thing.
So don't automatically assignto them expertise in some other
(31:33):
areas just because they werereally good at this one thing.
And yeah, I look forward togetting into this story.
I'm going to do a little bit ofresearch outside of those books
too to find out what else isout there about albert and his
marriage.
I feel like this could be alittle bit more than what we
learned in this book, evencrazier than what we learned in
chapter 15 of this book.
So I look forward to gettinginto that with you next time.
(31:54):
Dan sounds good, sir.
All right.
Forward to getting into thatwith you next time.
Dan Sounds good, sir, all right, thanks everybody, we'll talk
to you next time.
Thank you so much for listeningto our entire episode from
start to finish, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it.
We know you have a lot ofpodcasts you could choose from,
and we are thrilled that youpicked ours.
Please check out our websiteagain, mindfullymasculinecom,
for all of our episodes as wellas anything else.
We
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