October 27, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, Charles and Dan unpack one of their favorite conversations from The Diary of a CEO — Steven Bartlett’s interview with Simon Sinek.
They explore what it really means to “find your why,” why self-awareness beats self-improvement, and how honesty, feedback, and integrity all connect to a deeper sense of fulfillment that lasts longer than success or achievement ever could.
From the power of vulnerability to the courage of truth-telling, this episode dives into the difference between looking successful and actually feeling aligned with your purpose.
Watch the original Diary of a CEO conversation with Simon Sinek here:
👉 https://youtu.be/Q-zuTZuYeCg?si=r0eb40OnB4kyQJYW
Key Topics Discussed
• Why rediscovering your “why” matters more than chasing results
• The difference between self-awareness and self-improvement
• What the 48-hour honesty challenge reveals about integrity
• Why vulnerability means direct honesty, not public performance
• How feedback builds self-knowledge and better relationships
• Why fulfillment comes from service, not status
Takeaways for Listeners
- Ask yourself why you want what you want — and keep asking until you hit something real.
- Try the 48-hour honesty challenge: no white lies, no polite untruths.
- Seek feedback from people who see you clearly — then say “thank you” and nothing else.
- Reconnect your goals to purpose, not just performance metrics.
You can find all of our episodes, along with anything new we’re creating and sharing, at MindfullyMasculine.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
There there is no bravery unless unless you're
willing to put yourself at risk,because otherwise you're just
spending all your time doing thethings you know you can do and
and doing the things and andbeing the person in front of
people that you know they wantyou to be.
And it's only when you take therisk of of doing the new thing
or being the new version ofyourself that that you can
experience a feeling of, oh, Iwas brave.
(00:20):
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Uh quick note before we start,this episode's coming out a few
hours later than usual becauseI'm editing it right now, Monday
morning, October 27th, around1030 Eastern time.
Uh, thanks for your patience.
Today, Dan and I are divinginto one of our favorite
conversations from the diary ofa CEO, Stephen Bartlett's
interview with Simon Sinek.
(00:42):
We have both respected Simon'swork for years, but this talk
reminded us why it is not justabout leadership or motivation,
it's about rediscovering yourpurpose when success alone stops
feeling like enough.
We'll unpack what it means tofind your why, why
self-awareness beatsself-improvement, and how
honesty, feedback, and integrityconnect to a deeper sense of
fulfillment, the kind thatactually lasts.
(01:02):
You can find all of our audioand video episodes along with
anything new we're creating andsharing at
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, Charles.
Hello, Dan.
How are you?
Dan (01:12):
I am doing great.
Charles (01:14):
Excellent.
I am excited to uh have thisconversation because we did
another viewing of an episode ofthe Diary of a CEO.
This one with Simon Sinek,who's one of my favorite people
to listen to or read or justwatch.
Dan (01:29):
He was so good on this interview.
Charles (01:31):
He's good in every interview.
I mean, the guy is He saidsomething really interesting at
the end of it that uh I wantedto see if you picked up on.
When he's talking about hismission, so he what do we even
call?
I mean, he's certainly anauthor, he is certainly a
speaker, a consultant.
What is it that you would saythat he does?
Dan (01:50):
He I don't know how to describe it.
Maybe modern day philosopher.
Charles (01:54):
Yeah, I think I think there's some of that.
Dan (01:56):
Where it's not just talking, but yeah.
I feel based on what he wassaying, and the focus of a lot
of his content is really drivingaction.
Charles (02:09):
Yeah, I think uh I mean he works with organizations,
certainly, individuals perhaps,to kind of help them figure out
what it is that they want andhow to get that.
And but not just by saying,What do you want?
Oh, I want to increase profits.
Well, okay, here's how youincrease profits.
(02:29):
No, it's more like, why do youwant to increase pro you know,
it is really he gets to the thenitty-gritty of what it is that
is is motivating people.
And um what was the first bookthat uh I read by him?
It wasn't start with why?
It was start with why.
Okay, yeah, it was start withwhy.
And yeah, the the reallyinteresting exercise.
(02:51):
But anyway, the thing he saidwas part of what his mission is
to do, he wants to dismantleeverything that Jack Welch
taught the wheelchair.
Dan (03:00):
I heard that too, yeah.
And I wanted to be like, oh mygod, I want to I want to get
more in-depth in terms of thespecifics that Jack Welch was
because maybe you know that Ibut I was just like, I know Jack
Welch is old school, but I justI wanted to dig in a little bit
and go, okay, what are his coretenants so I can see, you know,
and and go and look at what theopposite of that would be.
Charles (03:23):
Yeah, I I worked for him briefly.
I was a consultant on a projectat GE Capital when Jack Welch
was a CEO.
Oh wow.
It was a Y2K project.
Okay.
So this is back in 99.
And uh Yeah, I was on uh gladit wasn't in 2001.
And that would have been thatwould have been very
inefficient, right?
(03:43):
Guys, I think uh I think we'llbe okay.
Uh yeah, it was in 99, it wasright right before, and uh I
mean he definitely had areputation around GE for, you
know, being like this biggerthan life personality.
But yeah, I don't know exactlywhat it is.
I I imagine that it wasprobably something about the way
(04:07):
that he got what he needed outof people that Simon Sinek finds
unappealing.
Dan (04:12):
Yeah.
I think maybe it's the profitover ethics conversation that
they dug into in this, that thathe was basically maybe that has
something to do with it.
Charles (04:24):
Yeah, and and I I wasn't exposed to any of that
directly where you know anybodywas flat out saying we care
about profit more than we careabout ethics, but you know, why
would you say that?
You wouldn't say that out loud.
You would say you would saythat with the way that you
design your culture.
You wouldn't say it by justtelling people, yeah, it's fine
to lie, it's fine to cheat, it'sfine to you.
No, nobody says that becausethere's a social cost to that.
(04:45):
But there are plenty oforganizations, both uh corporate
and and non or profit-drivenand non-that would not say, you
know, we value this oneparticular goal over our ethics,
but when you see how theybehave, they certainly act that
way.
But yeah, I thought that wasreally interesting, though, that
he's willing to take onsomebody that big.
I mean, you know, in the legacyof Jack Welch, which, you know,
(05:05):
if you're a 30 Rock fan, youknow, uh Alec Baldwin's
character, Jack Donegie, wasbased on and very referential.
And Jack Welch is even in someepisodes of 30 Rock.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, where you know, because Iknow that's what we were.
Yeah, GE owned NBC until it wassold to Comcast.
He was seen as somewhat of aguru when it came to business.
(05:27):
And it's just great that youknow Simon Sinek is willing to
say, no, everything this guytold you is wrong.
And I I really respect thatlevel of disagreeableness when
somebody's willing to stand outthere and say, Okay, I'm going
to put my professionalreputation on the line to say
this guy that everybody thinkswas right, he was actually
wrong.
Like that excites me whenpeople are willing to do that.
I love that.
Um, they start out theconversation, and you could tell
(05:49):
Stephen Bartlett was veryfamiliar with Simon and Simon's
work and had a lot of reverencefor Simon's work.
And they basically talked aboutwhatever your why is for why
you're in business, why you'rein the relationships that you're
in, why why you think you're inthe world is something that
you're going to form by, I thinkyou said your early teens.
(06:12):
And so some of those coremotivations for who you are,
which is one of the things Ilove about the uh and I follow
so many accounts on Instagramabout Enneagrams.
Because the primary thing aboutyour Enneagram is what
motivates you.
It's not like the uh Myers Brigor your astrology sign or
anything like that.
It's actually like what are thethings that on a daily, even
(06:36):
minute by minute basis make youdo the things that you choose to
do.
And that's why I I love theEnneagram and I love how how
much it is just spot on.
You know, every meme I seeabout an 8W7, it's like, yeah,
that's me, that's me.
Every time.
Yeah.
Um and for the most part, youknow, there's there's some of
that with um with my Myers Brigtype, which uh I took it again
(06:58):
recently, and I have absolutelyswitched from an ENTJ to an
ENTP.
So I am more of a perceiverthan a judger now.
Okay.
Than I was before.
Well, it's good.
I think I don't think either ofthem's no, I mean one's not
necessarily better or worse thanthe other.
P is always better than J.
Come on.
Peanut butter, well, it's not apeanut butter jelly.
(07:21):
Yeah, absolutely right.
But anyway, let's let's justkind of hit some of the things
that stood out to us becausethis was a very free-flowing
conversation.
I would say it was not asstructured as the one we just
talked about with sleep.
It was much more of adiscussion where you could tell
they were both just sort ofhitting the points that were
important or interesting tothem.
Yeah.
Which is a great conversationto listen to.
I mean, I think the one we didon sleep and the one we did on
(07:42):
body language and andcommunication, that was much
more regimented, where Simon wasway more relaxed than either of
those two going into you know,sitting at this table with
Steven, and they just had agreat conversation.
Dan (07:54):
Yeah, I mean, those other ones were full of facts as well.
There was like hard data behindthose other two.
This one, not so much.
It was more just kind ofperspective and philosophy, I
felt, but it was definitely moreinteresting to me.
Charles (08:08):
Yeah.
What what what jumped out atyou?
What what are some of yournotes that you had about it?
Dan (08:13):
Really, that just the way he free it was just it's in.
I already kind of came to thisconclusion that most of us are
motivated the most by havingexternal factors, that we're
motivated by trying to dosomething for somebody else.
And and that's where we get ourgreatest sense of fulfillment.
And you can see that in so manysuccessful people in in the
(08:33):
world where they get to a pointin their life and they start
giving back in massive inmassive ways, not just money,
but also with education and andtutoring and mentoring, things
like that.
But just the way that they camein Simon explained why that is,
it just was insightful to me.
Where he's like, you know,people they have they have
(08:56):
children, and is it hard?
Yes.
Is there lots of sacrifices?
Yes.
Is it worth it?
Yes.
And he's like, everybody thatthey they cut end up coming to
that conclusion.
And he did a great jobcomparing that to Olympic
athletes or athletes who werelike who were really high
performing, and they get to thethe the goal that they were
after, and they immediately orvery quickly afterwards fall
(09:19):
into some sort of depression, orthey are just a pet.
It's just there's like nothingleft for them.
And he pointed out that a lotof times when these athletes
are, you know, training theirasses off and they're missing
big important events in lifelike birthdays and parties and
socializing and and connectingwith the world, that they're
very selfish goals, but they'represented as, oh, I want to win
(09:43):
the Olympics for America, or Iwant to, you know, it's uh the
the athletes who are reallyfocused on um themselves uh for
winning that goal are the oneswho suffer the most because at
the end of that, they've gotnothing left.
They don't have a big strongnetwork of friends.
It's the relationships theyhave in their lives are how are
(10:06):
you able to get me to my goal?
So if you're a coach or if youare a friend or a family member,
it's I'm so focused onachieving this big thing.
Uh, you know, how are youfitting that into my life?
And and because of that, theydon't have these strong
friendships.
And at the end, there's reallythey look around, there's
nothing left.
And he did compare that tosomebody else, it was like I
(10:28):
think a professional footballplayer who came from really
humble beginnings and herealized what his motivation
was.
He wanted a bigger platform tobe able to give back and help
more.
And that's what he used hissports career for.
And because of that, it hedidn't suffer that same fate of
running into some sort of youknow depression or anxiety when
(10:49):
he actually became famous andand achieved that goal.
And just thinking through whywe do the things that we do and
really what motivates us and andgets us through those difficult
obstacles really just thoseexamples really hit home for me
and made me realize okay, yeah,that's why it's so important to
find something bigger thanyourself to boost yourself up
(11:14):
when you don't feel like doingthe difficult things for the
goal that you're trying toachieve.
Charles (11:18):
Yeah, I'm reminded of uh, you know, I I always think
about when the talk gets toprofessional athletes, I think
back to Brett Favre and his two,I believe it was two,
retirement press conferences,where, you know, Brett Favre was
a fairly visible NFL player.
Um, I mean, he was a starquarterback of the Packers for a
(11:41):
long time.
And they won Super Bowls andyou know, they won playoffs, and
I never saw him talking to thepress about his family life, the
things he accomplished while hewas with the team.
It never displayed the sameemotion as when it was I don't
get to play this game anymore,and now I'm going to cry like a
(12:03):
baby in front of these cameras.
And it just, and I'm notshaming any guy for crying or
crying in public or anythinglike that.
It's just the contrast of theway he talked about either his
team accomplishments or hispersonal accomplishments versus
I'm sad that I don't get to Idon't get to be the star
anymore.
And then he retires, then hecomes back, then he retires
(12:26):
again and turned on thewaterworks again.
And then after that, you know,he's been, it seems like he
engaged in some unethicalbusiness practices.
He was sexting, you know,sending unsolicited nude
pictures to women, and it'slike, okay, this everything I'm
learning about this guy saysthat he's in it for him and not
(12:46):
really anything else.
It's it's distasteful to me.
It it's like uh and and I can'timagine that that is a very
content or fulfilling life tolive either, when when you're in
it for you and you're all aboutit for you, or at least I think
the fact that it comes acrossthat way isn't an accident.
(13:06):
Yeah, that's not just us, youknow, reading into it.
I think that's yeah, seems likethe kind of guy he is.
Dan (13:12):
I think it it gets worse if you start hurting other people
in the process of servingyourself.
Serving yourself.
Charles (13:18):
Yeah.
Dan (13:18):
That's where it really starts to underscore and
highlight an issue.
Charles (13:22):
Yeah, there are a couple of different takes that
he had on things that uh in thisinterview that really resonated
with me.
One was he doesn't love theidea or the phrase of
self-improvement.
He's like, focus more onself-awareness.
And if you focus onself-awareness, then the
deficiencies that you find inyourself, if you are if you care
(13:44):
about them and and if you arefocused on what it is that you
want out of life, you willnaturally put in the work to
solve those deficiencies.
But you're not going if you'reif you're only focused on
self-improvement and not aboutand not on self-awareness,
you're never gonna see thoseflaws in yourself and put in the
time to work on them.
Dan (14:03):
What was interesting when he was talking about that was
his his own example of how he'sbeen a told was he's an amazing
listener to everybody, but thenwhen it came to his family, it's
like he was almost a differentperson.
Charles (14:18):
His girlfriend called him out on it.
And yeah, you're you're not agood listener.
Dan (14:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And and it's I can see how thateasily happens because if you
are told one thing throughoutmost of your life, then then
that that that you be it becomesa blind spot.
It's just like, oh yeah, I'mI'm just a good listener, right?
And and so then I think youspend less time, and when I say
you, people in general willspend, I'm guilty of this too,
(14:41):
less time evaluating yourself inthat area because oh, you're
good, you've got that covered.
Like that's not an obviousblind spot or something that I
need to work on, but it's verycontextual, it's very you know
situational in terms of uheverything that we do.
So, yeah, in one and I'm I Isame for myself, absolutely.
I feel looking, you know,looking through that lens, the
(15:04):
first thing I thought of is whenam when am I a shitty listener?
And it's like, oh yeah,probably with family, but
sometimes with friends,probably, yeah, yeah.
But with strangers, like andI'm I agree with that.
I think.
Charles (15:18):
So, you know, I mean, you know.
I mean, I I think of you as agreat listener.
I've I think I've never feltlike every time I've been
talking to you about especiallyabout something that I find
important, I find you to beextremely engaged.
So if anybody disagrees withthat, they're lying to you.
No, I no, I'm just telling youfrom my experience.
Right, you know.
Dan (15:35):
But I yeah, so I was just like, wow, that that so that
goes back to support theself-awareness, because if you
become aware of that, you willmost likely want to improve.
Charles (15:47):
Yeah, and that that's the in that area, the very hard
thing where where it turns tosomething you might need to
change about yourself.
This one, this one hit me hard.
We grow by inviting feedback,not by reading books.
Oh man, I wish it was byreading books because I love
reading books.
And um, I mean that's that'ssomething I've I've learned in
(16:09):
my men's group and and in someof the information that has come
to me through the men's group,either through stuff I've read
or conversations I've had.
Insight is cheap.
It's easy to read a book thattells you what your problem is.
What's difficult is to actuallydo the work to resolve that or
or modify what it is that'scausing you to have that
(16:30):
difficulty.
But yeah, I can I can read abook all about me and why people
like me struggle with things orwhat they struggle with, but
when it comes to actuallychanging it, yeah, it's usually
not in the in the pages of abook.
If it could be solved by abook, it would have been solved
already, right?
Dan (16:44):
Yeah.
I listen, I'm I'm I'm rightthere with you.
Uh what's interesting is thisis the second time I've heard
the technique that he mentionedfor getting that feedback.
The first one was from a guywho wrote a book called Embrace
the Suck.
Uh and I think he was from uh Ithink he was like a high-level
military.
Um, but basically the feedbackwas you should you you ask them
(17:11):
what they thought.
Uh and the you you first of allyou have to pick the proper
people to give you the feedback.
Right.
But then when they give it toyou, the only thing you're
allowed to say is thank you.
The only uh and and and that'sthat's it.
And you can't there's nofeedback, there's no back and
forth that goes, you know, thatthat you're giving the other
person that's giving you thatfeedback.
Right.
All you get to say is thankyou.
(17:32):
That's it.
Yeah.
So yeah, you want to reallyjust just uh encourage people to
have those, and that's it'salso very difficult to get
people to be completely honestand to give you that brutal
feedback that you you need.
And so it sounded like thesewere things that he's brought
into organizations that he'sworked with where they've
(17:55):
they've you know it's been alittle bit formal because he
says it's sometimes it could bea little difficult when you've
got senior managers and thepeople who report to them giving
them that feedback.
It's it's so I I thought thatis uh you know that is something
really valuable to try to youknow get it, get a team of
people around you to give youthat feedback.
Charles (18:15):
Yeah, and and part of that is uh yeah, you've got to
have the people, you've got tocultivate the relationships of
people you can trust to putyourself in that position.
And that that leads me to uhthe next point I have in my
notes, which is vulnerability.
And uh he mentioned the thetrend of I guess there was a
TikTok thing going around whereyou would record yourself
talking about your lastrelationship and how you failed
(18:37):
the other person.
And then, you know, all thesepeople were sharing it with you
know the same hashtag andthey're crying and saying, you
know, what they did wrong.
He's like, that's notvulnerability.
Vulnerability is having thatconversation in a quiet room
with the one person that youhurt and then letting them react
to it.
Yeah.
React vulnerability is not isnot broadcasting it on social
(18:59):
media and considering it.
Dan (19:01):
And you're doing and you're doing in a room by yourself.
Right.
That's the thing.
You just that's not beingvulnerable.
Charles (19:05):
Yeah, that uh that reminded me of of another line
that I heard in uh in StrongGround by uh by Brene Brown,
which I mentioned on our lastpodcast.
I'm listening to the audiobookright now as I go for my walks.
One of the things she says iseverybody wants to be brave, but
nobody wants to be vulnerable.
And you can't be brave withoutvulnerability.
(19:26):
And it's like, yeah, that oofShe's right.
I mean, yeah, there there is nobravery unless unless you're
willing to put yourself at riskbecause otherwise you're just
spending all your time doing thethings you know you can do and
and doing the things in andbeing the person in front of
people that you know they wantyou to be.
And it's only when you take therisk of of doing the new thing
(19:48):
or being the new version ofyourself that that you can
experience a feeling of, oh, Iwas brave.
I didn't know that it's a thingwhere people will quit a job
before they'll ask their bossfor a raise.
Yeah.
I did not know that either.
And that's I can I can see thatwith some of the younger people
(20:10):
I know.
Like, yeah, that that wouldn'tsurprise me that they would
rather just quit the job andtake a job somewhere else than,
you know, say, hey, I'm workingreally hard, I think I'm doing
well, I'd like a little moremoney.
Dan (20:22):
I mean, I know that's an uncomfortable conversation, and
it was when I had it with mybosses that, you know, to I
mean, I guess if you're youngenough and you're not starving,
it's might be easier to takethat risk, go, I'll get a job
somewhere else, than to getuncomfortable, especially if you
have no practice gettinguncomfortable with anything.
Charles (20:40):
Right.
And that's and you mentioned,you know, one of the effects
that we've had with uh withgoing through COVID was you
know, there are a lot of peoplethat realized that the unknown
and the uncertainty and and nothaving a work situation that you
could count on everything'sgonna be okay.
He's like, well, most of usmade it through and we were
(21:02):
okay.
And so now it's like a lot ofpeople no longer have the
tolerance.
Well, I gotta stay miserable inthis job because you know, who
knows what could happen if Ilose my job or I jeopardize my
job by, you know, like, no, wewe we all kind of learned, eh,
we we might be okay.
We might be able to deal withsome negative work situations
and still keep a roof over ourhead and food in our belly.
(21:24):
So now maybe that job that Ithought I had to stay in, even
though I was miserable, maybe Idon't have to stay in it.
Maybe I can quit it and youknow, have a little bit of a gap
before I find the next one andand I'll be okay.
Yeah.
And I think that's good.
I think this this idea of youhave to stay at a job you hate
because, oh no, what if?
It's like, yeah, you'llsurvive.
(21:45):
Yep.
You'll you'll be okay, you'llfigure something out.
You figured something out lasttime, you'll figure something
out this time as well.
But uh, yeah, it's interesting.
I you know, one of the thingswe we've talked about as a
society in in the uh when itcomes to like the uh the gender
wage gap and how women, youknow, make X number of cents on
(22:06):
the dollar compared to men, anda lot of that has to do with
career choice, and it also hasto do with temperament when it
comes to negotiating and askingfor what you deserve at your job
and what have we what have wetaught men is okay to say, what
have we taught women is okay tosay.
And yeah, I would say, youknow, having those difficult
(22:26):
conversations where you'rewilling to go into a boss's
office and say, hey, I think Ithink I deserve to make some
more money.
I don't really feel a lot ofanxiety about that.
In my case, you know, I haven'tI haven't had that kind of a
job in a long time.
So basically I just tell myclients, hey, I'm raising my
rates, here's what the new ratesare.
And I've never I've not lost asingle client over that.
And I feel okay doing thatbecause it doesn't feel risky to
(22:50):
me.
Where I don't know if I was ayoung man in my 20s or a young
woman in my twenties, 30s, or40s, and I've been kind of
conditioned like, oh no, whenyou when you ask for what you
need, the answer you get is no.
You get a door slammed in yourface.
Then I would probably feel alot different about initiating
those conversations than I do.
Dan (23:10):
Yeah.
Charles (23:11):
But as a combination of some of the experiences I had
as a child and as a youngerprofessional, I just don't I
don't feel that lack of I I havethat message.
That message has beenreinforced for me, like ask for
what you want, and you'll get ayes, you'll get a no, but either
way you'll be okay.
And so I'm okay doing that.
Where the uncomfortableconversations in business or in
my personal life, they don'tscare me as much because I have
(23:35):
been trained to learn though youhave to ask for that or you
definitely won't get it.
Dan (23:41):
Yeah.
Charles (23:42):
And so I I'm not scared of those.
Dan (23:45):
That's true.
You know what's reallyinteresting?
I just had a similarconversation with the woman who
cuts my hair yesterday.
Yeah.
Where she was saying, so she'sa manager and she goes to these
conferences where there's awhole bunch of other managers
that work for a fran ahaircutting franchise, and
there's one owner that owns mostof the most of these franchise
(24:06):
locations in Florida.
And she doesn't sound likeshe's some horrible, evil, angry
person.
She sounds pretty cool.
My hairdresser was saying wasthat she'll go to these stores,
she's sent around to thesestores to fix problems, and
she'll go in there, and theywill be missing like critical
supplies to be able to do thesehaircuts, like towels or or or
(24:30):
the towels need to be replaced,or you know, they need they need
razors or or scissors orwhatever.
And the manager is too scaredto call the owner and say, We
need these things.
We need these things.
And I was like, Well, why arethey selling them off the back
of a truck?
Are these are these thingsdisappearing?
Like, is she gonna get drunk?
No, these are just normal wearand tear.
And I'm like, Are you kiddingme?
(24:51):
And I'm like, oh, they I'mlike, what are they just you
know, are they really youngmanagers or like in their 20s?
She's like, No, they're intheir 30s and 40s.
Charles (24:57):
They're mostly women though, right?
Oh, they're all women.
They're all women.
Dan (25:00):
And I was just like, but the owner, the owner's also a
woman.
Charles (25:04):
Still.
Dan (25:04):
But but I was just like, I was absolutely amazing.
I'm like, wait a minute, andthese aren't just regular
science, these are managers,people who are in charge of the
store, of making sure the storeis profitable, getting
everything done.
They're too c scared to callthe owner and say they need
supply refills.
I was just like, holy cow, justlike, and she's like, Yeah, all
(25:26):
of them.
And there was like 20 or 30 ifshe's talking about.
Charles (25:29):
Yeah, I would say I I mean it blew my mind.
I listen, I know a lot of womenthat have difficulty asking for
what they need, and I don'tthink that's just biological.
I mean, that might, you know,being being a woman biologically
maybe part of it, but I thinkalso the message we send to
people in society of certaingroups, I mean, you know, I've
(25:52):
never been called, to my face atleast, bossy or pushy.
But every woman I know that's,you know, mid-management and on
up has been referred to asbossy, pushy, or bitchy.
Yeah.
Nobody's ever called me bossy,pushy, or bitchy.
I've never even heard itsecondhand that Charles is
pushy, Charles is ever.
Yeah.
And I I think, you know,listen, we're we're used to to
(26:15):
doing things and thinking aboutthings the way that we're used
to doing things and thinkingabout them.
And, you know, again, you youeither get the message growing
up, there there's a few messagesyou can get.
You can get the message of,hey, your needs are important,
so when you ask for your needsto be met, they're going to be
met.
That's one way.
The other is, hey, your needsare not important.
So when you ask for your needsto be met, you're going to be
(26:38):
ignored and your needs are notgoing to get met.
Or, and I think that's themessage that a lot of the women
that I know, I can't say allwomen, but a lot of the women I
know have been given thatmessage.
Um, your needs aren't reallythat important.
So if you ask for them or youdon't ask for them, either way,
you're not getting them.
So why not there?
Or the message I got growing upwas your needs are not
important.
So if you want them met, youbetter make it so that our only
(26:59):
option is for us to meet yourneeds.
And that's why I am pushy.
That's why I am an 8W7.
Because on my own, justpolitely requesting for my needs
to get met, they were not metas a child.
I have to be the squeaky wheelif I want to get the grease.
And so that carries along intomy career.
Dan (27:19):
Chevans, that that's absolutely the case.
The way you just phrase thatnow absolutely lines up with the
other 8w7s that I know.
And I never thought about it inthat in that context.
Do you remember when he wastalking about when Simon Cynic
was talking about the wholeghosting culture?
Do you remember what he wassaying?
Yes.
Okay.
I think so.
So what was interesting to meis how worked up he got about
(27:39):
it.
But rightly so, the way hephrased this was, and I didn't
realize, so I mean, I think mostpeople have have done some sort
of ghosting on some level, youknow, uh uh for when when it
comes to dating.
Um, but what he was saying isthat some people are being
ghosted after being inrelationships with them for like
six months or something likethis.
Charles (28:00):
Yeah.
Dan (28:00):
And I didn't I didn't know that was a thing.
And and the way he phrased itwas it this is this is such a uh
reflection of people notwanting to have an uncomfortable
conversation that they wouldrather have this other person
they had a six-monthrelationship think they are
basically dead.
They they block them fromsocial media, they disconnect
from them, they you know, theystop taking their calls, and
(28:23):
basically you are they thinkthat you know you are dead
because it's just easier forthem to not have that
conversation, and then you showup, you know, like on social
media, he said, like, you know,a few months later.
And it's just like you're okaymaking this person go through
the trauma of thinking thatyou're dead rather than having
(28:44):
an uncomfortable conversationfor a couple of minutes.
Charles (28:46):
Yes, and see, this is where uh yeah, I I agree that
that that's not right, that'snot ethical.
Uh, I've never done it, I'venever had it done to me.
Yeah.
I can understand where thatcomes from, though, because
again, it's it's having thismessage reinforced that you
know, especially when when I seeguys complaining about women
ghosting them, not after asix-month relationship.
(29:08):
That's that's that's that's anoutlier, I'm sure.
But you know, when when a womanghosts a man, my immediate
thought goes to, okay, she'sshe's been trained that this is
the safest option.
I don't necessarily meanphysical safety, but just and
there are a lot of guys outthere that their emotional
strength and resilience is inthe toilet.
(29:30):
And so if they don't get whatthey want out of a relationship,
they have some kind of anemotional freak out act out
where it's just scary,distasteful, um, unfortunate.
Just and and so the woman doesthe math of uh I'd rather, I'd
rather not potentially subjectmyself to that.
So it's easier for me to justdisappear than it is to go
(29:53):
through that experience.
And it's like, okay, I kinda Ikind of get it.
Um couple quick things that hementioned.
Is um ethics.
He he talks about the 48-hourchallenge where you go 48 hours
without any kind of a lie,meaning tell them I'm not here
to, yeah, my hamburgers cookjust perfect.
It's fine, you know, or reallymost people wouldn't go into
(30:15):
that detail.
Oh, it's fine, everything'sgreat when it's not great.
So he he recommended the 48hours of uh of of No White Lies.
Yeah, because he says you don'trealize how many little white
lies we all tell all day long.
Yeah, I have pretty much givenup on those because of Sam
Harris's book online.
He's got like a mini book thathe put out all about lying and
(30:35):
why you shouldn't do it and whyit's good for you and the people
around you not to do it.
And and well, what about thissituation?
What about this?
He kind of covers a lot ofthose.
Dan (30:44):
Oh, I I'm gonna get that book.
I like that.
That sounds interesting,especially the situational wise.
Charles (30:50):
That's that's why I would want to and he actually
references a situation in thatbook that's very close to Simon
Sinek's about going to hisfriend's play where the play was
garbage, and how do younavigate that feedback to your
friend that you care about whenthey're saying, Hey, how did I
do?
and the answer is not good.
And so, yeah, Sam Sam Harriskind of covers that one too.
(31:11):
Let's see, I wanted to coverthe uh the U.S.
Army Rangers when it came tohow they evaluate whether
somebody has made it throughtheir training, and he said they
made this change like 40 yearsago, where it's can you
physically do the things that werequire you to do?
Does your commanding officersign off on your ability to pass
this training?
And do your peers sign off onit?
(31:32):
Because he said they were theywere getting an epidemic of
spotlight rangers, where whenthe supervisors were looking at
them, they were the perfectsoldier.
But then when it came to howthey behave back in the barracks
or around the people that wereat their level or below, they
were terrible.
Yeah.
And so they they changed it sothat you your evaluation
included a peer review, not justhow the you couldn't just be a
(31:56):
good kiss ass and and get ahead.
It had to be the people at yourlevel and below your level that
also thought you were a goodguy.
Dan (32:03):
That reminded me of the funny uh I had never heard this
before, but the monkeys whereyou know, from from leadership,
you know, when you're lookingdown at a tree of monkeys,
underneath you.
But meanwhile, if you're one ofthe the workers who who work
for one of these monkers lookingup, ground looking up, all
you're seeing are assholes.
Right.
Charles (32:21):
And I was just like, that is so good.
He said, Yeah, during COVID, uhSteven talked about his company
culture collapsing becauseremote work equalized all the
environments.
And so, you know, you thoughtthe fact that you had free
cereal and uh a slide in a pooltable was going to keep people
excited about their job.
(32:41):
It's like, no, you need to.
He mentioned basically it'sit's the little trappings that
kind of appeal to us as kids,and then above that is the
money, and above that is thepurpose.
Yes.
So people will leave ahigh-paying job for a job that
pays less if they feel like italigns with their purpose.
But yeah, I I had friends yearsago that worked for tech
(33:03):
companies in the Orlando areawhere it's like, yeah, we have a
ball pit, we have free cereal.
It's like, have you heard ofthe concept of money?
Just sell all those things, putthose things on Craigslist
right now, sell them, and thenpay me more, and I'll be a lot
happier.
But yeah, the that kind ofculture, it never appealed to
me.
I never understood, like, butthen again, you know, I'm not
(33:24):
getting hired, I wasn't hiredstraight out of college, you
know, at 22 years old to gowrite programming for video
games.
But some of the people I knowthat were doing that, they're
like, Oh, it's so cool.
We have a fill in the blank.
I was like, that sounds like awaste of money.
Like just, you know.
Dan (33:40):
So part of that probably is also bragging rights.
That might be a little bit ofsomething back then when they
were doing that, right?
Charles (33:46):
Bragging about your salary is not okay, but bragging
about your ball pit that youhave at your in your corporate
headquarters, that's okay.
Yeah, that's right.
Dan (33:53):
I'm working at Chuck and Cheese, baby.
Charles (33:55):
Exactly.
Pizza Party.
He talked about this wasinteresting, the infinite-minded
leadership.
And I believe in finding yourwhy, he talks about the concept
of infinite games, where youknow, it it goes on forever.
It's not just okay, I'vereached my goal and now I'm
done.
It's I'll be able to look backon my career and my personal
(34:15):
life based on what kind ofthings did I accomplish that
people were willing to say, oh,this is a ball I want to pick up
and run with, versus just okay,Charles was here and now he's
gone.
Yeah.
You know, big deal.
That's motivating.
I think so.
I mean, I yeah, I I feel thatway.
I'd like to I'd like to leavesome kind of a mark that people
Hey, leave your ballseverywhere.
Dan (34:34):
I get it.
I get it.
Charles (34:37):
Cut that out.
Oh, that was a weak joke.
Let's see.
The uh there was one otherthing that really jumped out at
me was the uh fulfillment comesfrom service and truth, not
status or perfection.
And yeah, I I really like theexercise that we we've done and
we've talked about plenty oftimes, which is why is it that
you want something?
(34:58):
When you say you want to be thenumber one podcaster, when you
say you want six-pack abs, let'slet's have the let's keep
asking why you want that to thepoint where it gets
uncomfortable.
Dan (35:13):
That's Tony Robbins also advocates for for getting down
to that because we're driven byemotions, not by logic.
Charles (35:19):
Correct.
And we're not going to be aswe've talked about before,
motivation is so fleeting.
And you feel motivated rightnow to uh study for a
professional certification soyou can get a better job, or to
lose a couple extra pounds soyou look better.
But that motivation it is itdoesn't stick around.
(35:42):
It comes and it goes.
Yeah.
And it gets harder and harderto do the thing you need to do
to get the goal.
I mean, when you don't feellike it, you gotta have
something in the tank that tellsyou to do it anyway.
And rarely is that motivation.
It's gotta be discipline, it'sgotta be systems, it's gotta be
meaning, it's gotta be somethingbigger than motivation.
(36:03):
Otherwise, you're not gonnastick with it.
And and the only way that youcan really uncover those tools
is to ask yourself uncomfortablequestions or to have a friend
ask you, like, hey, listen, Iwant to do this, so let's let's
really drill down and keep keeppressing me to give you a yeah,
get it to the point where I'mgiving you an explanation that
(36:24):
you believe is true and thatthere's nothing else underneath
it.
And then then maybe we can comeup with a plan to make it
happen.
Yeah.
But I mean, yo, 75 hard, it'slike why do you want to do 75
hard?
Well, I want to look better.
Okay, you want to look better.
Good luck.
See how see how I want to lookbetter on day zero translates to
(36:47):
being out in the rain on daythirty-seven.
Right, right.
Dan (36:50):
You know, yeah, yeah.
You you perpetually every dayyou wake up you want to look
better.
That's there's no that's gotnothing to do with anything else
that you're doing.
It it's just it feels good alittle better.
We all look a little bitbetter, right?
Charles (37:01):
But what what are you what are you going to be willing
to give up on day 51 to lookbetter?
And it's like, you better havean answer because otherwise
you're you're not gonna stickwith it.
Mm-hmm.
And that really, I mean, itreally comes down to anything
that you want to accomplish thatis difficult for you or even
difficult for the averageperson.
If you want to accomplishsomething that's difficult, you
(37:24):
gotta understand why you wantit, and you gotta believe why
you want it, and you gotta bewilling to do what you you need
to do to get it.
And I think most of us don't dothat level of analysis
beforehand.
No.
Because it's it's uncomfortableand we're not sure if we're
doing it right and it feelsweird.
And certainly sharing it withanother person.
I mean, sometimes if thatperson's a therapist or a coach,
(37:44):
it feels a little easierbecause you're spending some
money on it, but it's it's noteasy.
I mean, read Simon Sinek's bookand and help you, it'll help
you figure out why you want todo the things you say you want
to do.
And then it can also help youkind of let go of some of the
things you think you should wantto do that you don't really
want to do.
Which I think a lot of us findourselves in that position where
I should want to do thesethings, you know, I should want
(38:06):
to keep my house clean, I shouldwant to eat better, I should
want to dress, you know, alittle bit more to get put
together, but I'm not reallywilling to do it on a daily
basis.
So anyway, I like thisconversation.
As in the other ones, I willshare a link so you can watch
the original conversation andget your own feedback out of it
and your own little nuggets oftruth.
(38:27):
But uh yeah, Simon Sinick'sgreat.
Fine.
Whatever you can see, he's beena guest on a podcast or he's
put out a book, absolutelyconsume it and you'll be better
off.
Dan (38:35):
Yeah, for sure.
He will absolutely give you thesame information you may have
heard before, but in a way thatyou've most likely never heard
it before, or it and and he doesit in a way where it really
registers for you.
Charles (38:48):
Yeah, it's happened multiple times.
Yeah, I want to respond to thethings he says.
Yes.
Not just think about it, I wantto do something.
And he's great at that.
So um another one is uh AdamGraham.
We'll have to see if he did anepisode of Diary of CEO.
I'm a big Adam Grant fan, so weneed to see if he's done one of
these and maybe we'll we'llcover him next.
Sounds good.
All right, thanks, Dan.
We'll talk to you later.
Okay, that wraps up thisepisode of the Mindfully
(39:10):
Masculine Podcast.
We hope this conversation gaveyou some new insight into what
it really means to find yourwhy, practice honest self
awareness, and build a liferooted in purpose instead of
performance.
You know someone who mightconnect with or benefit from
this episode, please share itwith them.
It's one of the best ways tosupport the show and keep these
conversations growing.
Thank you for listening to theentire episode and for being
(39:30):
part of the community.
We'll see you next time.
There there is no bravery unless unless you're
willing to put yourself at risk,because otherwise you're just
spending all your time doing thethings you know you can do and
and doing the things and andbeing the person in front of
people that you know they wantyou to be.
And it's only when you take therisk of of doing the new thing
or being the new version ofyourself that that you can
experience a feeling of, oh, Iwas brave.
(00:20):
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Uh quick note before we start,this episode's coming out a few
hours later than usual becauseI'm editing it right now, Monday
morning, October 27th, around1030 Eastern time.
Uh, thanks for your patience.
Today, Dan and I are divinginto one of our favorite
conversations from the diary ofa CEO, Stephen Bartlett's
interview with Simon Sinek.
(00:42):
We have both respected Simon'swork for years, but this talk
reminded us why it is not justabout leadership or motivation,
it's about rediscovering yourpurpose when success alone stops
feeling like enough.
We'll unpack what it means tofind your why, why
self-awareness beatsself-improvement, and how
honesty, feedback, and integrityconnect to a deeper sense of
fulfillment, the kind thatactually lasts.
(01:02):
You can find all of our audioand video episodes along with
anything new we're creating andsharing at
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, Charles.
Hello, Dan.
How are you?
Dan (01:12):
I am doing great.
Charles (01:14):
Excellent.
I am excited to uh have thisconversation because we did
another viewing of an episode ofthe Diary of a CEO.
This one with Simon Sinek,who's one of my favorite people
to listen to or read or justwatch.
Dan (01:29):
He was so good on this interview.
Charles (01:31):
He's good in every interview.
I mean, the guy is He saidsomething really interesting at
the end of it that uh I wantedto see if you picked up on.
When he's talking about hismission, so he what do we even
call?
I mean, he's certainly anauthor, he is certainly a
speaker, a consultant.
What is it that you would saythat he does?
Dan (01:50):
He I don't know how to describe it.
Maybe modern day philosopher.
Charles (01:54):
Yeah, I think I think there's some of that.
Dan (01:56):
Where it's not just talking, but yeah.
I feel based on what he wassaying, and the focus of a lot
of his content is really drivingaction.
Charles (02:09):
Yeah, I think uh I mean he works with organizations,
certainly, individuals perhaps,to kind of help them figure out
what it is that they want andhow to get that.
And but not just by saying,What do you want?
Oh, I want to increase profits.
Well, okay, here's how youincrease profits.
(02:29):
No, it's more like, why do youwant to increase pro you know,
it is really he gets to the thenitty-gritty of what it is that
is is motivating people.
And um what was the first bookthat uh I read by him?
It wasn't start with why?
It was start with why.
Okay, yeah, it was start withwhy.
And yeah, the the reallyinteresting exercise.
(02:51):
But anyway, the thing he saidwas part of what his mission is
to do, he wants to dismantleeverything that Jack Welch
taught the wheelchair.
Dan (03:00):
I heard that too, yeah.
And I wanted to be like, oh mygod, I want to I want to get
more in-depth in terms of thespecifics that Jack Welch was
because maybe you know that Ibut I was just like, I know Jack
Welch is old school, but I justI wanted to dig in a little bit
and go, okay, what are his coretenants so I can see, you know,
and and go and look at what theopposite of that would be.
Charles (03:23):
Yeah, I I worked for him briefly.
I was a consultant on a projectat GE Capital when Jack Welch
was a CEO.
Oh wow.
It was a Y2K project.
Okay.
So this is back in 99.
And uh Yeah, I was on uh gladit wasn't in 2001.
And that would have been thatwould have been very
inefficient, right?
(03:43):
Guys, I think uh I think we'llbe okay.
Uh yeah, it was in 99, it wasright right before, and uh I
mean he definitely had areputation around GE for, you
know, being like this biggerthan life personality.
But yeah, I don't know exactlywhat it is.
I I imagine that it wasprobably something about the way
(04:07):
that he got what he needed outof people that Simon Sinek finds
unappealing.
Dan (04:12):
Yeah.
I think maybe it's the profitover ethics conversation that
they dug into in this, that thathe was basically maybe that has
something to do with it.
Charles (04:24):
Yeah, and and I I wasn't exposed to any of that
directly where you know anybodywas flat out saying we care
about profit more than we careabout ethics, but you know, why
would you say that?
You wouldn't say that out loud.
You would say you would saythat with the way that you
design your culture.
You wouldn't say it by justtelling people, yeah, it's fine
to lie, it's fine to cheat, it'sfine to you.
No, nobody says that becausethere's a social cost to that.
(04:45):
But there are plenty oforganizations, both uh corporate
and and non or profit-drivenand non-that would not say, you
know, we value this oneparticular goal over our ethics,
but when you see how theybehave, they certainly act that
way.
But yeah, I thought that wasreally interesting, though, that
he's willing to take onsomebody that big.
I mean, you know, in the legacyof Jack Welch, which, you know,
(05:05):
if you're a 30 Rock fan, youknow, uh Alec Baldwin's
character, Jack Donegie, wasbased on and very referential.
And Jack Welch is even in someepisodes of 30 Rock.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, where you know, because Iknow that's what we were.
Yeah, GE owned NBC until it wassold to Comcast.
He was seen as somewhat of aguru when it came to business.
(05:27):
And it's just great that youknow Simon Sinek is willing to
say, no, everything this guytold you is wrong.
And I I really respect thatlevel of disagreeableness when
somebody's willing to stand outthere and say, Okay, I'm going
to put my professionalreputation on the line to say
this guy that everybody thinkswas right, he was actually
wrong.
Like that excites me whenpeople are willing to do that.
I love that.
Um, they start out theconversation, and you could tell
(05:49):
Stephen Bartlett was veryfamiliar with Simon and Simon's
work and had a lot of reverencefor Simon's work.
And they basically talked aboutwhatever your why is for why
you're in business, why you'rein the relationships that you're
in, why why you think you're inthe world is something that
you're going to form by, I thinkyou said your early teens.
(06:12):
And so some of those coremotivations for who you are,
which is one of the things Ilove about the uh and I follow
so many accounts on Instagramabout Enneagrams.
Because the primary thing aboutyour Enneagram is what
motivates you.
It's not like the uh Myers Brigor your astrology sign or
anything like that.
It's actually like what are thethings that on a daily, even
(06:36):
minute by minute basis make youdo the things that you choose to
do.
And that's why I I love theEnneagram and I love how how
much it is just spot on.
You know, every meme I seeabout an 8W7, it's like, yeah,
that's me, that's me.
Every time.
Yeah.
Um and for the most part, youknow, there's there's some of
that with um with my Myers Brigtype, which uh I took it again
(06:58):
recently, and I have absolutelyswitched from an ENTJ to an
ENTP.
So I am more of a perceiverthan a judger now.
Okay.
Than I was before.
Well, it's good.
I think I don't think either ofthem's no, I mean one's not
necessarily better or worse thanthe other.
P is always better than J.
Come on.
Peanut butter, well, it's not apeanut butter jelly.
(07:21):
Yeah, absolutely right.
But anyway, let's let's justkind of hit some of the things
that stood out to us becausethis was a very free-flowing
conversation.
I would say it was not asstructured as the one we just
talked about with sleep.
It was much more of adiscussion where you could tell
they were both just sort ofhitting the points that were
important or interesting tothem.
Yeah.
Which is a great conversationto listen to.
I mean, I think the one we didon sleep and the one we did on
(07:42):
body language and andcommunication, that was much
more regimented, where Simon wasway more relaxed than either of
those two going into you know,sitting at this table with
Steven, and they just had agreat conversation.
Dan (07:54):
Yeah, I mean, those other ones were full of facts as well.
There was like hard data behindthose other two.
This one, not so much.
It was more just kind ofperspective and philosophy, I
felt, but it was definitely moreinteresting to me.
Charles (08:08):
Yeah.
What what what jumped out atyou?
What what are some of yournotes that you had about it?
Dan (08:13):
Really, that just the way he free it was just it's in.
I already kind of came to thisconclusion that most of us are
motivated the most by havingexternal factors, that we're
motivated by trying to dosomething for somebody else.
And and that's where we get ourgreatest sense of fulfillment.
And you can see that in so manysuccessful people in in the
(08:33):
world where they get to a pointin their life and they start
giving back in massive inmassive ways, not just money,
but also with education and andtutoring and mentoring, things
like that.
But just the way that they camein Simon explained why that is,
it just was insightful to me.
Where he's like, you know,people they have they have
(08:56):
children, and is it hard?
Yes.
Is there lots of sacrifices?
Yes.
Is it worth it?
Yes.
And he's like, everybody thatthey they cut end up coming to
that conclusion.
And he did a great jobcomparing that to Olympic
athletes or athletes who werelike who were really high
performing, and they get to thethe the goal that they were
after, and they immediately orvery quickly afterwards fall
(09:19):
into some sort of depression, orthey are just a pet.
It's just there's like nothingleft for them.
And he pointed out that a lotof times when these athletes
are, you know, training theirasses off and they're missing
big important events in lifelike birthdays and parties and
socializing and and connectingwith the world, that they're
very selfish goals, but they'represented as, oh, I want to win
(09:43):
the Olympics for America, or Iwant to, you know, it's uh the
the athletes who are reallyfocused on um themselves uh for
winning that goal are the oneswho suffer the most because at
the end of that, they've gotnothing left.
They don't have a big strongnetwork of friends.
It's the relationships theyhave in their lives are how are
(10:06):
you able to get me to my goal?
So if you're a coach or if youare a friend or a family member,
it's I'm so focused onachieving this big thing.
Uh, you know, how are youfitting that into my life?
And and because of that, theydon't have these strong
friendships.
And at the end, there's reallythey look around, there's
nothing left.
And he did compare that tosomebody else, it was like I
(10:28):
think a professional footballplayer who came from really
humble beginnings and herealized what his motivation
was.
He wanted a bigger platform tobe able to give back and help
more.
And that's what he used hissports career for.
And because of that, it hedidn't suffer that same fate of
running into some sort of youknow depression or anxiety when
(10:49):
he actually became famous andand achieved that goal.
And just thinking through whywe do the things that we do and
really what motivates us and andgets us through those difficult
obstacles really just thoseexamples really hit home for me
and made me realize okay, yeah,that's why it's so important to
find something bigger thanyourself to boost yourself up
(11:14):
when you don't feel like doingthe difficult things for the
goal that you're trying toachieve.
Charles (11:18):
Yeah, I'm reminded of uh, you know, I I always think
about when the talk gets toprofessional athletes, I think
back to Brett Favre and his two,I believe it was two,
retirement press conferences,where, you know, Brett Favre was
a fairly visible NFL player.
Um, I mean, he was a starquarterback of the Packers for a
(11:41):
long time.
And they won Super Bowls andyou know, they won playoffs, and
I never saw him talking to thepress about his family life, the
things he accomplished while hewas with the team.
It never displayed the sameemotion as when it was I don't
get to play this game anymore,and now I'm going to cry like a
(12:03):
baby in front of these cameras.
And it just, and I'm notshaming any guy for crying or
crying in public or anythinglike that.
It's just the contrast of theway he talked about either his
team accomplishments or hispersonal accomplishments versus
I'm sad that I don't get to Idon't get to be the star
anymore.
And then he retires, then hecomes back, then he retires
(12:26):
again and turned on thewaterworks again.
And then after that, you know,he's been, it seems like he
engaged in some unethicalbusiness practices.
He was sexting, you know,sending unsolicited nude
pictures to women, and it'slike, okay, this everything I'm
learning about this guy saysthat he's in it for him and not
(12:46):
really anything else.
It's it's distasteful to me.
It it's like uh and and I can'timagine that that is a very
content or fulfilling life tolive either, when when you're in
it for you and you're all aboutit for you, or at least I think
the fact that it comes acrossthat way isn't an accident.
(13:06):
Yeah, that's not just us, youknow, reading into it.
I think that's yeah, seems likethe kind of guy he is.
Dan (13:12):
I think it it gets worse if you start hurting other people
in the process of servingyourself.
Serving yourself.
Charles (13:18):
Yeah.
Dan (13:18):
That's where it really starts to underscore and
highlight an issue.
Charles (13:22):
Yeah, there are a couple of different takes that
he had on things that uh in thisinterview that really resonated
with me.
One was he doesn't love theidea or the phrase of
self-improvement.
He's like, focus more onself-awareness.
And if you focus onself-awareness, then the
deficiencies that you find inyourself, if you are if you care
(13:44):
about them and and if you arefocused on what it is that you
want out of life, you willnaturally put in the work to
solve those deficiencies.
But you're not going if you'reif you're only focused on
self-improvement and not aboutand not on self-awareness,
you're never gonna see thoseflaws in yourself and put in the
time to work on them.
Dan (14:03):
What was interesting when he was talking about that was
his his own example of how he'sbeen a told was he's an amazing
listener to everybody, but thenwhen it came to his family, it's
like he was almost a differentperson.
Charles (14:18):
His girlfriend called him out on it.
And yeah, you're you're not agood listener.
Dan (14:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And and it's I can see how thateasily happens because if you
are told one thing throughoutmost of your life, then then
that that that you be it becomesa blind spot.
It's just like, oh yeah, I'mI'm just a good listener, right?
And and so then I think youspend less time, and when I say
you, people in general willspend, I'm guilty of this too,
(14:41):
less time evaluating yourself inthat area because oh, you're
good, you've got that covered.
Like that's not an obviousblind spot or something that I
need to work on, but it's verycontextual, it's very you know
situational in terms of uheverything that we do.
So, yeah, in one and I'm I Isame for myself, absolutely.
I feel looking, you know,looking through that lens, the
(15:04):
first thing I thought of is whenam when am I a shitty listener?
And it's like, oh yeah,probably with family, but
sometimes with friends,probably, yeah, yeah.
But with strangers, like andI'm I agree with that.
I think.
Charles (15:18):
So, you know, I mean, you know.
I mean, I I think of you as agreat listener.
I've I think I've never feltlike every time I've been
talking to you about especiallyabout something that I find
important, I find you to beextremely engaged.
So if anybody disagrees withthat, they're lying to you.
No, I no, I'm just telling youfrom my experience.
Right, you know.
Dan (15:35):
But I yeah, so I was just like, wow, that that so that
goes back to support theself-awareness, because if you
become aware of that, you willmost likely want to improve.
Charles (15:47):
Yeah, and that that's the in that area, the very hard
thing where where it turns tosomething you might need to
change about yourself.
This one, this one hit me hard.
We grow by inviting feedback,not by reading books.
Oh man, I wish it was byreading books because I love
reading books.
And um, I mean that's that'ssomething I've I've learned in
(16:09):
my men's group and and in someof the information that has come
to me through the men's group,either through stuff I've read
or conversations I've had.
Insight is cheap.
It's easy to read a book thattells you what your problem is.
What's difficult is to actuallydo the work to resolve that or
or modify what it is that'scausing you to have that
(16:30):
difficulty.
But yeah, I can I can read abook all about me and why people
like me struggle with things orwhat they struggle with, but
when it comes to actuallychanging it, yeah, it's usually
not in the in the pages of abook.
If it could be solved by abook, it would have been solved
already, right?
Dan (16:44):
Yeah.
I listen, I'm I'm I'm rightthere with you.
Uh what's interesting is thisis the second time I've heard
the technique that he mentionedfor getting that feedback.
The first one was from a guywho wrote a book called Embrace
the Suck.
Uh and I think he was from uh Ithink he was like a high-level
military.
Um, but basically the feedbackwas you should you you ask them
(17:11):
what they thought.
Uh and the you you first of allyou have to pick the proper
people to give you the feedback.
Right.
But then when they give it toyou, the only thing you're
allowed to say is thank you.
The only uh and and and that'sthat's it.
And you can't there's nofeedback, there's no back and
forth that goes, you know, thatthat you're giving the other
person that's giving you thatfeedback.
Right.
All you get to say is thankyou.
(17:32):
That's it.
Yeah.
So yeah, you want to reallyjust just uh encourage people to
have those, and that's it'salso very difficult to get
people to be completely honestand to give you that brutal
feedback that you you need.
And so it sounded like thesewere things that he's brought
into organizations that he'sworked with where they've
(17:55):
they've you know it's been alittle bit formal because he
says it's sometimes it could bea little difficult when you've
got senior managers and thepeople who report to them giving
them that feedback.
It's it's so I I thought thatis uh you know that is something
really valuable to try to youknow get it, get a team of
people around you to give youthat feedback.
Charles (18:15):
Yeah, and and part of that is uh yeah, you've got to
have the people, you've got tocultivate the relationships of
people you can trust to putyourself in that position.
And that that leads me to uhthe next point I have in my
notes, which is vulnerability.
And uh he mentioned the thetrend of I guess there was a
TikTok thing going around whereyou would record yourself
talking about your lastrelationship and how you failed
(18:37):
the other person.
And then, you know, all thesepeople were sharing it with you
know the same hashtag andthey're crying and saying, you
know, what they did wrong.
He's like, that's notvulnerability.
Vulnerability is having thatconversation in a quiet room
with the one person that youhurt and then letting them react
to it.
Yeah.
React vulnerability is not isnot broadcasting it on social
(18:59):
media and considering it.
Dan (19:01):
And you're doing and you're doing in a room by yourself.
Right.
That's the thing.
You just that's not beingvulnerable.
Charles (19:05):
Yeah, that uh that reminded me of of another line
that I heard in uh in StrongGround by uh by Brene Brown,
which I mentioned on our lastpodcast.
I'm listening to the audiobookright now as I go for my walks.
One of the things she says iseverybody wants to be brave, but
nobody wants to be vulnerable.
And you can't be brave withoutvulnerability.
(19:26):
And it's like, yeah, that oofShe's right.
I mean, yeah, there there is nobravery unless unless you're
willing to put yourself at riskbecause otherwise you're just
spending all your time doing thethings you know you can do and
and doing the things in andbeing the person in front of
people that you know they wantyou to be.
And it's only when you take therisk of of doing the new thing
(19:48):
or being the new version ofyourself that that you can
experience a feeling of, oh, Iwas brave.
I didn't know that it's a thingwhere people will quit a job
before they'll ask their bossfor a raise.
Yeah.
I did not know that either.
And that's I can I can see thatwith some of the younger people
(20:10):
I know.
Like, yeah, that that wouldn'tsurprise me that they would
rather just quit the job andtake a job somewhere else than,
you know, say, hey, I'm workingreally hard, I think I'm doing
well, I'd like a little moremoney.
Dan (20:22):
I mean, I know that's an uncomfortable conversation, and
it was when I had it with mybosses that, you know, to I
mean, I guess if you're youngenough and you're not starving,
it's might be easier to takethat risk, go, I'll get a job
somewhere else, than to getuncomfortable, especially if you
have no practice gettinguncomfortable with anything.
Charles (20:40):
Right.
And that's and you mentioned,you know, one of the effects
that we've had with uh withgoing through COVID was you
know, there are a lot of peoplethat realized that the unknown
and the uncertainty and and nothaving a work situation that you
could count on everything'sgonna be okay.
He's like, well, most of usmade it through and we were
(21:02):
okay.
And so now it's like a lot ofpeople no longer have the
tolerance.
Well, I gotta stay miserable inthis job because you know, who
knows what could happen if Ilose my job or I jeopardize my
job by, you know, like, no, wewe we all kind of learned, eh,
we we might be okay.
We might be able to deal withsome negative work situations
and still keep a roof over ourhead and food in our belly.
(21:24):
So now maybe that job that Ithought I had to stay in, even
though I was miserable, maybe Idon't have to stay in it.
Maybe I can quit it and youknow, have a little bit of a gap
before I find the next one andand I'll be okay.
Yeah.
And I think that's good.
I think this this idea of youhave to stay at a job you hate
because, oh no, what if?
It's like, yeah, you'llsurvive.
(21:45):
Yep.
You'll you'll be okay, you'llfigure something out.
You figured something out lasttime, you'll figure something
out this time as well.
But uh, yeah, it's interesting.
I you know, one of the thingswe we've talked about as a
society in in the uh when itcomes to like the uh the gender
wage gap and how women, youknow, make X number of cents on
(22:06):
the dollar compared to men, anda lot of that has to do with
career choice, and it also hasto do with temperament when it
comes to negotiating and askingfor what you deserve at your job
and what have we what have wetaught men is okay to say, what
have we taught women is okay tosay.
And yeah, I would say, youknow, having those difficult
(22:26):
conversations where you'rewilling to go into a boss's
office and say, hey, I think Ithink I deserve to make some
more money.
I don't really feel a lot ofanxiety about that.
In my case, you know, I haven'tI haven't had that kind of a
job in a long time.
So basically I just tell myclients, hey, I'm raising my
rates, here's what the new ratesare.
And I've never I've not lost asingle client over that.
And I feel okay doing thatbecause it doesn't feel risky to
(22:50):
me.
Where I don't know if I was ayoung man in my 20s or a young
woman in my twenties, 30s, or40s, and I've been kind of
conditioned like, oh no, whenyou when you ask for what you
need, the answer you get is no.
You get a door slammed in yourface.
Then I would probably feel alot different about initiating
those conversations than I do.
Dan (23:10):
Yeah.
Charles (23:11):
But as a combination of some of the experiences I had
as a child and as a youngerprofessional, I just don't I
don't feel that lack of I I havethat message.
That message has beenreinforced for me, like ask for
what you want, and you'll get ayes, you'll get a no, but either
way you'll be okay.
And so I'm okay doing that.
Where the uncomfortableconversations in business or in
my personal life, they don'tscare me as much because I have
(23:35):
been trained to learn though youhave to ask for that or you
definitely won't get it.
Dan (23:41):
Yeah.
Charles (23:42):
And so I I'm not scared of those.
Dan (23:45):
That's true.
You know what's reallyinteresting?
I just had a similarconversation with the woman who
cuts my hair yesterday.
Yeah.
Where she was saying, so she'sa manager and she goes to these
conferences where there's awhole bunch of other managers
that work for a fran ahaircutting franchise, and
there's one owner that owns mostof the most of these franchise
(24:06):
locations in Florida.
And she doesn't sound likeshe's some horrible, evil, angry
person.
She sounds pretty cool.
My hairdresser was saying wasthat she'll go to these stores,
she's sent around to thesestores to fix problems, and
she'll go in there, and theywill be missing like critical
supplies to be able to do thesehaircuts, like towels or or or
(24:30):
the towels need to be replaced,or you know, they need they need
razors or or scissors orwhatever.
And the manager is too scaredto call the owner and say, We
need these things.
We need these things.
And I was like, Well, why arethey selling them off the back
of a truck?
Are these are these thingsdisappearing?
Like, is she gonna get drunk?
No, these are just normal wearand tear.
And I'm like, Are you kiddingme?
(24:51):
And I'm like, oh, they I'mlike, what are they just you
know, are they really youngmanagers or like in their 20s?
She's like, No, they're intheir 30s and 40s.
Charles (24:57):
They're mostly women though, right?
Oh, they're all women.
They're all women.
Dan (25:00):
And I was just like, but the owner, the owner's also a
woman.
Charles (25:04):
Still.
Dan (25:04):
But but I was just like, I was absolutely amazing.
I'm like, wait a minute, andthese aren't just regular
science, these are managers,people who are in charge of the
store, of making sure the storeis profitable, getting
everything done.
They're too c scared to callthe owner and say they need
supply refills.
I was just like, holy cow, justlike, and she's like, Yeah, all
(25:26):
of them.
And there was like 20 or 30 ifshe's talking about.
Charles (25:29):
Yeah, I would say I I mean it blew my mind.
I listen, I know a lot of womenthat have difficulty asking for
what they need, and I don'tthink that's just biological.
I mean, that might, you know,being being a woman biologically
maybe part of it, but I thinkalso the message we send to
people in society of certaingroups, I mean, you know, I've
(25:52):
never been called, to my face atleast, bossy or pushy.
But every woman I know that's,you know, mid-management and on
up has been referred to asbossy, pushy, or bitchy.
Yeah.
Nobody's ever called me bossy,pushy, or bitchy.
I've never even heard itsecondhand that Charles is
pushy, Charles is ever.
Yeah.
And I I think, you know,listen, we're we're used to to
(26:15):
doing things and thinking aboutthings the way that we're used
to doing things and thinkingabout them.
And, you know, again, you youeither get the message growing
up, there there's a few messagesyou can get.
You can get the message of,hey, your needs are important,
so when you ask for your needsto be met, they're going to be
met.
That's one way.
The other is, hey, your needsare not important.
So when you ask for your needsto be met, you're going to be
(26:38):
ignored and your needs are notgoing to get met.
Or, and I think that's themessage that a lot of the women
that I know, I can't say allwomen, but a lot of the women I
know have been given thatmessage.
Um, your needs aren't reallythat important.
So if you ask for them or youdon't ask for them, either way,
you're not getting them.
So why not there?
Or the message I got growing upwas your needs are not
important.
So if you want them met, youbetter make it so that our only
(26:59):
option is for us to meet yourneeds.
And that's why I am pushy.
That's why I am an 8W7.
Because on my own, justpolitely requesting for my needs
to get met, they were not metas a child.
I have to be the squeaky wheelif I want to get the grease.
And so that carries along intomy career.
Dan (27:19):
Chevans, that that's absolutely the case.
The way you just phrase thatnow absolutely lines up with the
other 8w7s that I know.
And I never thought about it inthat in that context.
Do you remember when he wastalking about when Simon Cynic
was talking about the wholeghosting culture?
Do you remember what he wassaying?
Yes.
Okay.
I think so.
So what was interesting to meis how worked up he got about
(27:39):
it.
But rightly so, the way hephrased this was, and I didn't
realize, so I mean, I think mostpeople have have done some sort
of ghosting on some level, youknow, uh uh for when when it
comes to dating.
Um, but what he was saying isthat some people are being
ghosted after being inrelationships with them for like
six months or something likethis.
Charles (28:00):
Yeah.
Dan (28:00):
And I didn't I didn't know that was a thing.
And and the way he phrased itwas it this is this is such a uh
reflection of people notwanting to have an uncomfortable
conversation that they wouldrather have this other person
they had a six-monthrelationship think they are
basically dead.
They they block them fromsocial media, they disconnect
from them, they you know, theystop taking their calls, and
(28:23):
basically you are they thinkthat you know you are dead
because it's just easier forthem to not have that
conversation, and then you showup, you know, like on social
media, he said, like, you know,a few months later.
And it's just like you're okaymaking this person go through
the trauma of thinking thatyou're dead rather than having
(28:44):
an uncomfortable conversationfor a couple of minutes.
Charles (28:46):
Yes, and see, this is where uh yeah, I I agree that
that that's not right, that'snot ethical.
Uh, I've never done it, I'venever had it done to me.
Yeah.
I can understand where thatcomes from, though, because
again, it's it's having thismessage reinforced that you
know, especially when when I seeguys complaining about women
ghosting them, not after asix-month relationship.
(29:08):
That's that's that's that's anoutlier, I'm sure.
But you know, when when a womanghosts a man, my immediate
thought goes to, okay, she'sshe's been trained that this is
the safest option.
I don't necessarily meanphysical safety, but just and
there are a lot of guys outthere that their emotional
strength and resilience is inthe toilet.
(29:30):
And so if they don't get whatthey want out of a relationship,
they have some kind of anemotional freak out act out
where it's just scary,distasteful, um, unfortunate.
Just and and so the woman doesthe math of uh I'd rather, I'd
rather not potentially subjectmyself to that.
So it's easier for me to justdisappear than it is to go
(29:53):
through that experience.
And it's like, okay, I kinda Ikind of get it.
Um couple quick things that hementioned.
Is um ethics.
He he talks about the 48-hourchallenge where you go 48 hours
without any kind of a lie,meaning tell them I'm not here
to, yeah, my hamburgers cookjust perfect.
It's fine, you know, or reallymost people wouldn't go into
(30:15):
that detail.
Oh, it's fine, everything'sgreat when it's not great.
So he he recommended the 48hours of uh of of No White Lies.
Yeah, because he says you don'trealize how many little white
lies we all tell all day long.
Yeah, I have pretty much givenup on those because of Sam
Harris's book online.
He's got like a mini book thathe put out all about lying and
(30:35):
why you shouldn't do it and whyit's good for you and the people
around you not to do it.
And and well, what about thissituation?
What about this?
He kind of covers a lot ofthose.
Dan (30:44):
Oh, I I'm gonna get that book.
I like that.
That sounds interesting,especially the situational wise.
Charles (30:50):
That's that's why I would want to and he actually
references a situation in thatbook that's very close to Simon
Sinek's about going to hisfriend's play where the play was
garbage, and how do younavigate that feedback to your
friend that you care about whenthey're saying, Hey, how did I
do?
and the answer is not good.
And so, yeah, Sam Sam Harriskind of covers that one too.
(31:11):
Let's see, I wanted to coverthe uh the U.S.
Army Rangers when it came tohow they evaluate whether
somebody has made it throughtheir training, and he said they
made this change like 40 yearsago, where it's can you
physically do the things that werequire you to do?
Does your commanding officersign off on your ability to pass
this training?
And do your peers sign off onit?
(31:32):
Because he said they were theywere getting an epidemic of
spotlight rangers, where whenthe supervisors were looking at
them, they were the perfectsoldier.
But then when it came to howthey behave back in the barracks
or around the people that wereat their level or below, they
were terrible.
Yeah.
And so they they changed it sothat you your evaluation
included a peer review, not justhow the you couldn't just be a
(31:56):
good kiss ass and and get ahead.
It had to be the people at yourlevel and below your level that
also thought you were a goodguy.
Dan (32:03):
That reminded me of the funny uh I had never heard this
before, but the monkeys whereyou know, from from leadership,
you know, when you're lookingdown at a tree of monkeys,
underneath you.
But meanwhile, if you're one ofthe the workers who who work
for one of these monkers lookingup, ground looking up, all
you're seeing are assholes.
Right.
Charles (32:21):
And I was just like, that is so good.
He said, Yeah, during COVID, uhSteven talked about his company
culture collapsing becauseremote work equalized all the
environments.
And so, you know, you thoughtthe fact that you had free
cereal and uh a slide in a pooltable was going to keep people
excited about their job.
(32:41):
It's like, no, you need to.
He mentioned basically it'sit's the little trappings that
kind of appeal to us as kids,and then above that is the
money, and above that is thepurpose.
Yes.
So people will leave ahigh-paying job for a job that
pays less if they feel like italigns with their purpose.
But yeah, I I had friends yearsago that worked for tech
(33:03):
companies in the Orlando areawhere it's like, yeah, we have a
ball pit, we have free cereal.
It's like, have you heard ofthe concept of money?
Just sell all those things, putthose things on Craigslist
right now, sell them, and thenpay me more, and I'll be a lot
happier.
But yeah, the that kind ofculture, it never appealed to
me.
I never understood, like, butthen again, you know, I'm not
(33:24):
getting hired, I wasn't hiredstraight out of college, you
know, at 22 years old to gowrite programming for video
games.
But some of the people I knowthat were doing that, they're
like, Oh, it's so cool.
We have a fill in the blank.
I was like, that sounds like awaste of money.
Like just, you know.
Dan (33:40):
So part of that probably is also bragging rights.
That might be a little bit ofsomething back then when they
were doing that, right?
Charles (33:46):
Bragging about your salary is not okay, but bragging
about your ball pit that youhave at your in your corporate
headquarters, that's okay.
Yeah, that's right.
Dan (33:53):
I'm working at Chuck and Cheese, baby.
Charles (33:55):
Exactly.
Pizza Party.
He talked about this wasinteresting, the infinite-minded
leadership.
And I believe in finding yourwhy, he talks about the concept
of infinite games, where youknow, it it goes on forever.
It's not just okay, I'vereached my goal and now I'm
done.
It's I'll be able to look backon my career and my personal
(34:15):
life based on what kind ofthings did I accomplish that
people were willing to say, oh,this is a ball I want to pick up
and run with, versus just okay,Charles was here and now he's
gone.
Yeah.
You know, big deal.
That's motivating.
I think so.
I mean, I yeah, I I feel thatway.
I'd like to I'd like to leavesome kind of a mark that people
Hey, leave your ballseverywhere.
Dan (34:34):
I get it.
I get it.
Charles (34:37):
Cut that out.
Oh, that was a weak joke.
Let's see.
The uh there was one otherthing that really jumped out at
me was the uh fulfillment comesfrom service and truth, not
status or perfection.
And yeah, I I really like theexercise that we we've done and
we've talked about plenty oftimes, which is why is it that
you want something?
(34:58):
When you say you want to be thenumber one podcaster, when you
say you want six-pack abs, let'slet's have the let's keep
asking why you want that to thepoint where it gets
uncomfortable.
Dan (35:13):
That's Tony Robbins also advocates for for getting down
to that because we're driven byemotions, not by logic.
Charles (35:19):
Correct.
And we're not going to be aswe've talked about before,
motivation is so fleeting.
And you feel motivated rightnow to uh study for a
professional certification soyou can get a better job, or to
lose a couple extra pounds soyou look better.
But that motivation it is itdoesn't stick around.
(35:42):
It comes and it goes.
Yeah.
And it gets harder and harderto do the thing you need to do
to get the goal.
I mean, when you don't feellike it, you gotta have
something in the tank that tellsyou to do it anyway.
And rarely is that motivation.
It's gotta be discipline, it'sgotta be systems, it's gotta be
meaning, it's gotta be somethingbigger than motivation.
(36:03):
Otherwise, you're not gonnastick with it.
And and the only way that youcan really uncover those tools
is to ask yourself uncomfortablequestions or to have a friend
ask you, like, hey, listen, Iwant to do this, so let's let's
really drill down and keep keeppressing me to give you a yeah,
get it to the point where I'mgiving you an explanation that
(36:24):
you believe is true and thatthere's nothing else underneath
it.
And then then maybe we can comeup with a plan to make it
happen.
Yeah.
But I mean, yo, 75 hard, it'slike why do you want to do 75
hard?
Well, I want to look better.
Okay, you want to look better.
Good luck.
See how see how I want to lookbetter on day zero translates to
(36:47):
being out in the rain on daythirty-seven.
Right, right.
Dan (36:50):
You know, yeah, yeah.
You you perpetually every dayyou wake up you want to look
better.
That's there's no that's gotnothing to do with anything else
that you're doing.
It it's just it feels good alittle better.
We all look a little bitbetter, right?
Charles (37:01):
But what what are you what are you going to be willing
to give up on day 51 to lookbetter?
And it's like, you better havean answer because otherwise
you're you're not gonna stickwith it.
Mm-hmm.
And that really, I mean, itreally comes down to anything
that you want to accomplish thatis difficult for you or even
difficult for the averageperson.
If you want to accomplishsomething that's difficult, you
(37:24):
gotta understand why you wantit, and you gotta believe why
you want it, and you gotta bewilling to do what you you need
to do to get it.
And I think most of us don't dothat level of analysis
beforehand.
No.
Because it's it's uncomfortableand we're not sure if we're
doing it right and it feelsweird.
And certainly sharing it withanother person.
I mean, sometimes if thatperson's a therapist or a coach,
(37:44):
it feels a little easierbecause you're spending some
money on it, but it's it's noteasy.
I mean, read Simon Sinek's bookand and help you, it'll help
you figure out why you want todo the things you say you want
to do.
And then it can also help youkind of let go of some of the
things you think you should wantto do that you don't really
want to do.
Which I think a lot of us findourselves in that position where
I should want to do thesethings, you know, I should want
(38:06):
to keep my house clean, I shouldwant to eat better, I should
want to dress, you know, alittle bit more to get put
together, but I'm not reallywilling to do it on a daily
basis.
So anyway, I like thisconversation.
As in the other ones, I willshare a link so you can watch
the original conversation andget your own feedback out of it
and your own little nuggets oftruth.
(38:27):
But uh yeah, Simon Sinick'sgreat.
Fine.
Whatever you can see, he's beena guest on a podcast or he's
put out a book, absolutelyconsume it and you'll be better
off.
Dan (38:35):
Yeah, for sure.
He will absolutely give you thesame information you may have
heard before, but in a way thatyou've most likely never heard
it before, or it and and he doesit in a way where it really
registers for you.
Charles (38:48):
Yeah, it's happened multiple times.
Yeah, I want to respond to thethings he says.
Yes.
Not just think about it, I wantto do something.
And he's great at that.
So um another one is uh AdamGraham.
We'll have to see if he did anepisode of Diary of CEO.
I'm a big Adam Grant fan, so weneed to see if he's done one of
these and maybe we'll we'llcover him next.
Sounds good.
All right, thanks, Dan.
We'll talk to you later.
Okay, that wraps up thisepisode of the Mindfully
(39:10):
Masculine Podcast.
We hope this conversation gaveyou some new insight into what
it really means to find yourwhy, practice honest self
awareness, and build a liferooted in purpose instead of
performance.
You know someone who mightconnect with or benefit from
this episode, please share itwith them.
It's one of the best ways tosupport the show and keep these
conversations growing.
Thank you for listening to theentire episode and for being
(39:30):
part of the community.
We'll see you next time.
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