Bad Sleep = Bad Everything

In this episode, Charles and Dan unpack key insights from The Diary of a CEO conversation with sleep scientist Matthew Walker — exploring how modern life undermines rest, what’s actually happening in your brain while you sleep, and the small, practical changes that can improve energy, focus, and overall well-being.

We discuss:

• Why sleep loss affects every system in the body
• The myths around caffeine, naps, and “catching up” on weekends
• What REM sleep really does for emotional regulation
• Simple steps to build a better nightly routine

Watch the original Diary of a CEO episode featuring Matthew Walker:
🎧 The Science of Sleep – Why You’re Tired All the Time

Listen to all Mindfully Masculine episodes and find more from Charles and Dan at MindfullyMasculine.com

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Charles (00:00):
How I believe that our current cultural attitudes
toward sleep and our culturalattitudes toward a lot of issues
can be driven in ways that wedon't notice or understand by
people who are in power, wherewe've got a status quo that
works for the people in power,and so they want to keep that
going.
And one example of that is theCEO of Netflix basically saying

(00:23):
war on sleep, because the factis, in a modern capitalist
society, if you are sleeping,you're neither producing nor
consuming.
So what good are you?
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Today, Dan and I are taking acloser look at the diary of a
CEO and Stephen Bartlett'sconversation with sleep
scientist Matthew Walker.

(00:44):
We'll talk about what reallyhappens when we don't get enough
sleep, why modern culture stillglorifies burnout, and how
small, realistic changes in yournightly routine can make a big
difference in how you feel andfunction.
You can find all of our audiovideo episodes along with
anything new we're creating andsharing at
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks and enjoy.

Dan (01:04):
Good morning, Charles.

Charles (01:05):
Good morning, Dan.
How are you?
I am doing well.
How are you?
Uh pretty good, but I didn'tput my phone on Do Not Disturb.
Now it is.
Okay.
Um, I'm doing well.
Uh how'd you sleep?

Dan (01:16):
I slept probably on a scale of one to ten.
I it's probably seven lastnight, so better than at my uh
average for sure.

Charles (01:26):
Yeah, it's probably around six or seven.
I woke up uh a bit in themiddle of the night and didn't
get back to sleep right away.
But that's that's not all thatuncommon for me.
Um I mean, when el when elseare you gonna do your hunting?
I mean, honestly.
Victims can see during the day.
So gathering.
Yeah.
Um yeah, so uh that uh bringsus to our topic of this episode.

(01:51):
You and I um were we're stayingon track with uh talking about
some really great discussionsfrom the Diary of a CEO show on
YouTube.
And this one was with uh Dr.
Matthew Walker, who is aneuroscientist, and he wrote a
book called Why We Sleep, andthey went through and talked

(02:11):
about pretty much everything youcan imagine when it comes to
sleeping and doing it the rightway, doing it the wrong way, and
uh a lot of the mistakes thatall of us seem to be making, or
at least most of us.
Um he suggests, Dr.
Walker, that we're in a globalsleep loss epidemic driven by

(02:33):
modern technology and moderneconomic systems.
And it's very hard to disagreewith him on that because um we
have seen for a good long whilethere have been cultural drivers
that say the earlier you wakeup and the less you sleep, the
better person you are.

(02:53):
And I've been guilty of some ofthat as well because I am
naturally a morning person.
So for people who have to sleeplater and and stay up later, in
the past I have done a littlebit of condescending and looking
down my nose at those folks.
And uh I, you know, previous tothis episode, I knew that that
was not scientificallylegitimate or necessarily very

(03:16):
ethical of me.
But uh so it's one of thethings I'm trying to leave
behind.

Dan (03:21):
Do you think that comes from some sort of notion that
people who are sleeping in whileyou're active are lazy?
Yes.
I think I mean just looking atthem not doing anything, and
you're up and about getting theday started, and it's just like,
how dare you?

Charles (03:35):
Right?
Almost, right?
Like Oh, I'm doing all thiswork, you're just lying there.
Yeah, but it does it, you don'tyou don't do the math in the
opposite way.
No.

Dan (03:42):
Where when I would when I go to sleep, it, you know,
you're sleeping, you're notseeing and you're not witnessing
them doing all the other stuffthat and it's like also like how
productive is somebody reallywhat kinds of things are being
done?
Or what do we think they weredoing?
Because I think we're alsoassociating that with partying
and staying up late for reasonsthat are not really productive

(04:03):
for the most part.

Charles (04:04):
I thought it was a good thing.
Well, yeah, because I mean, youknow, it doesn't you date a
bartender and you realize thatthat's not the case.
She, you know, she was often uplate working harder at night
than I was working during theday at all.
Well, I'm I'm sitting at akeyboard all day and she's
actually doing manual labor, andthen it's like, oh, that's you
know, it's not right.
Just because she happens to bedoing it in a place with live

(04:24):
music doesn't mean that it's notwork.
Right.

Dan (04:26):
You know, that's the thing, is just you don't unless you
really to spend the time tothink that through and really
put yourself in other person'sshoes, you're uh it's very easy
to come up with those ideasthat, hey, yeah, you're lazy if
you you're sleeping in andstaying up late.

Charles (04:38):
And I think culturally it's also a lot, you know, from
the the nine to five job,whether it's in an office or an
assembly line, manufactory,whatever it is, it's just this
idea or or even schooling.
You know, you wake up early,you get dressed, you have your
breakfast, you go to school orwork, and then at the end of the
day, that's when you have fun,relax, and go to sleep.

(04:59):
So whether somebody's actualwork or school schedule reflects
that they're having fun in theevenings and relaxing, we kind
of think, oh, that's what that'swhat people do at night is they
have fun and they relax, evenif they have a job.

Dan (05:12):
I'm wondering if that comes from the culture of being human
as we evolved in terms of thethe labor that we were doing
over the years, right?
So we started out really aslike hunter-gatherers and then
and then became farmers.
And when were both of thoseactivities done primarily was in
the mornings.
You start early in the morning,as soon as sunlight comes in,

(05:33):
you're out there, you're you'reworking, right?
And so maybe part of the reasonwhy we've got that in our
brains culturally and and thatthat opinion sometimes is maybe
it comes from that.
Is that's what work is.
That's that's our opinion ofwhat hard work is, productive
work, valuable work, becausewe're bringing in food and

(05:55):
potentially money into thefamily.

Charles (05:58):
Yeah, I think those activities.
I think we have to point to theagricultural revolution for
that because during thehunter-gatherer phase, no, it
was very it was very likely thatthere were, you know, he he
said that you've got these earlyrisers, these late risers, and
these people that are kind of inthe middle.
Yeah.
And that was the shift that itwas broken out into that shift

(06:19):
for monitoring for danger andstuff like that.
So I think for thehunter-gatherer, the people that
woke up late and stayed up lateand kept watch, you know, as
the fire was burning out, it wastheir job to keep you safe
while you were sleeping.

Dan (06:31):
But which val which job do you think people valued more?

Charles (06:34):
I think back then it was probably equal.

Dan (06:36):
I don't I disagree because people want to eat.
And so if somebody, if if thethe hunters came back with a big
feast, it's like, oh, wehaven't eaten in days, and we
finally got something, likecelebration, we're we're eating
everything else.
And you're just kind of sittingthere, and yeah, maybe it was
maybe maybe you have a good agood story, like you defended

(06:56):
the tribe.
Like, how often does that mightmaybe happen?
Like, probably not that often.
Not as not as often as you'rebringing in food.
So I'm thinking back, I'mthinking it's probably more
celebrated when you're bringingin sustenance for the the the
community.

Charles (07:11):
Yeah, so maybe I might be right.
The the early risers may havehad a little bit of a of a
higher status even back then.
But you know, what we know nowfrom science is that there is no
better or worse, there's justdifferent and um And it's
beneficial that we're different.
Yeah, if we That wasinteresting.
Yeah, and you know, he may hemakes a good case that if sleep

(07:35):
was something that was optional,evolution would have selected
it out of us a long time ago.
So the fact that it's soexpensive from a survival and an
evolution standpoint, yet westill we still require it means
it must be super duperimportant.
Otherwise, we wouldn't still besleeping eight hours a night or
whatever.

Dan (07:55):
Exactly.
He made the point is when we'resleeping, we're absolutely
vulnerable to to whateverattacks or yeah.
Um and uh if if you rememberyou talked about how some
animals can have half of theirbrains saying I had never heard
that before.
I didn't know that.
And the other brain, the otherhalf of the brain is awake.
One of them was birds, and thatwas so fascinating to me the

(08:18):
analogy or what he talked aboutwas birds will sleep with one
eye open and the other eye shut,and it will be determined based
on where they land on a branch,like a flock of birds land,
star line, whatever, yeah.
Right, right, lands on this,and you know, the the ones, the
birds that are closest to theend have their eyes open, you
know, uh on on one side, andtheir eyes are on the side of

(08:40):
their head so they get the full180 view, and sleeping on the
other.

Charles (08:43):
I know, and then he's like, Oh, yeah, you would
switch, they wouldn't evenswitch with people on the inside
or birds on the inside, theywould just the outside ones
would just switch places.

Dan (08:51):
Well, what we said we're gonna turn around, they would
just turn around in place, whichis much more efficient.
That's right, yeah.
Trying to get organized, andoh, I was over here, buddy.
The other ones, too.
Right, yeah, and then and thenthey turn around and then they
rest the other part of thebrain.
It's crazy, but because ofthat, a flock survives because
they can be you know aware ofdanger or you know, shifting
winds or something knockingpeople off.

Charles (09:12):
Why would evolution go to the complexity of figuring
all this out if it wasn'tabsolutely essential for
survival?

Dan (09:18):
And what's crazy is yeah, some birds operate in that
fashion, and then the birds inthe middle, both of them, I
think they both both have sleep.
Both brain halves have sleep.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I remember hewas, yeah.
So we talked about, yeah, Iguess over time, sometimes our
our brain can shift based on oursleep needs.

(09:39):
So, like, you know, teenagers,we are a lot of times our school
systems are back ass wordsbecause we're getting the
teenagers off much earlier thanother, you know, than than what
their brain is wanting to do.
Right.
And I just remember sitting ina class, I don't know about you,
but when I was a teenager, Iwas falling asleep in class.
I mean, I wasn't sleeping greatas it was, but I was just

(10:01):
never, I was falling asleep inclass all the time.
It was just, I was alwaystired.

Charles (10:05):
For me, it was always it was always after lunch.
I never had a problem in themorning.
I would I would wake up and beYeah, I guess me too.
I did uh we'll talk about theuh sleep quiz that you and I
both took um on another sleepdoctor's website.
But yeah, I am if I've gotsomething important to do, then
I'm doing it in the first fewhours after I wake up.
That's really when I'm at mysharpest.

(10:26):
And that was pretty much thecase when I was in school too.
Yeah.
But man, after lunch, it wasreal hard, especially depending
on the temperature and the levelof stimulation.
Like if it was a a chemistrylab class, no problem.
I could stay awake, no, noissue.
But if it was just, you know, alecture class with somebody who
was fairly dry and it was afterlunch and it was, you know,

(10:48):
getting a little too cool in theroom.
Funk.
Yeah.
And it was it wasn't just me.
There was a lot of us that hadthat problem in high school.

Dan (10:55):
Yeah.
I mean, I have I have notebookswhere you can see my hand like
taking notes and it like trailsoff.
Like somebody, like literally,somebody gave me a drug and it
was just it's it's it's I Ireview and I'd be like, what did
I just write here?
Like, it's just terrible.

Charles (11:11):
So we uh we talked about this a little bit the
other day um when we werepreparing for this episode, and
uh, you know, how how I believethat our current cultural
attitudes toward sleep um andour cultural attitudes toward a
lot of issues can be driven inways that we don't notice or

(11:31):
understand by people who are inpower, where we've got a status
quo that works for the people inpower, and so they want to keep
that going.
And one example of that is theCEO of Netflix basically saying
war on sleep, because the factis, in a modern capitalist
society, if you are sleeping,you're neither producing nor

(11:52):
consuming.
So what good are you?
You were hours too, becausethey have the whole grind
culture of people braggingabout, oh, I only need four
hours, I only need five hours, Ionly need six hours.
It's like, well, you know, weall kind of need eight.
And, you know, as as productiveas you are on six, you'd be
even more productive if you wereon eight.

Dan (12:10):
See, and that's where I feel maybe it wasn't quite
intentional.
I I could under I agree withyou on the early rise of the.

Charles (12:19):
Yeah, I don't think there was a master plan.
I think it, I think it's moreof a, hey, we've kind of noticed
that this is working for us, solet's, you know, let's find
ways to reward behaviors thatthat are working for us.

Dan (12:30):
Yeah, I think I think people just didn't realize, you
know, even the even the the oneswith a lot of power and access
to information that we don'thave, I I think just logically
it was just an easier, hey,you're awake, you're able to do
things.
And then that was kind ofright.
And that was it.
They they left it that theydidn't look into the the data,
probably because it wasdifficult to get that data about
how productive somebody was,right, based on the amount of

(12:53):
sleep the hair was.
Now with the trackers andeverything, you know, there's a
lot more data out there abouthow we we operate.
And so, you know, he was sayingthat um sleep deprivation costs
nations about two percent ofGDP, which it comes out to like
411 billion in the UK or in theUS, which to me, so worldwide
that's got to be trillions ofdollars.

(13:13):
And here's the thing, too, isthe you know, the the companies
on the leading edge ofeverything, almost like Google.
Uh they've got sleep, you know,sleep rooms for their employees
now and sleep pods.
So they recognize, yeah, goahead, take a nap, and and
you'll be more productive.
So they they understand thatthe bottom line really is is

(13:33):
benefiting for people whoactually get enough sleep.

Charles (13:35):
Yeah, it's it's interesting how yeah, the the
companies on the edge oftechnology are are figuring that
out and implementing it whereyou know some of the older
fashion, certainly I don't seeany small businesses putting in,
you know, napping rooms anytimesoon.
Yeah.
Because I think it's still, youknow, like no, you get your
sleep at home and that's youknow, and I I can see why,
because if you don't have a hugestaff of people to help manage

(14:01):
the rooms need to be cleaned andthey need to be managed.
I was thinking about theshifts, yeah.
Somebody leave for a nap.

Dan (14:07):
Like, how do you get that covered, right?
How do you plan for for youknow for things to still be
running the right way whensomebody's just definitely it
would take work.
I randomly like need a nap inthe middle of right, unless you
had like pre-programmed times.
Yeah, that's it's definitelymore work on management, the
owners, everything else.
So I can see us human beings, Idon't want to take on more work

(14:27):
so this person can take a nap.
Like think about even justsaying it out loud makes me feel
like I think holy cow, thatwould that's a hard task, right?

Charles (14:36):
It would have to be a top-down thing where the guy,
you know, the guy or the gal atthe top believed that it was
necessary and they were takingthe naps and they were like,
listen, you know, you don't youdon't have to go to sleep if you
don't want to, but you know, inour eight-hour shifts, yeah,
everybody gets a 20-minute nap,and that's just the way that it
is.
Yeah.
Um, but one of the other thingswe were talking we were talking
about was the example of, youknow, where the the cultural

(15:00):
pressure to perform kind of canfly in the face of what's
actually good for people wasperfect attendance awards for
school.

Dan (15:07):
Yeah, you were saying that the other day, right?

Charles (15:09):
The idea of, you know, oh, I I go to school every day,
whether I'm sick or not.
It's like that's not it's notgood for you recovering from
your cold, your flu, your COVID,your illness, whatever it
happens to be.
It's not good for you to showup, and it's not good for the
rest of us for you to come towork either.
Yeah.
But we're still going to giveyou this little gold star at the
end of the year that says youdidn't you didn't miss a single
day.
I don't know if they do thatanymore.
I I wouldn't be surprised ifthat's gone the way of the dodo,

(15:31):
but it certainly should.
I mean, that's ridiculous thatwe that we reward people for
showing up every day, whetherthat's a good idea for the
individual or the group or not.
I mean, that's so here's cool.
Here's here's right.
So I mean that's that's what wewant out of somebody working on
an assembly line.
We want them to show up everyday, we think, unless we think
about it a little bit deeper,and then we're like, no, it's it

(15:53):
that's not good either.

Dan (15:54):
So what I don't understand is adults get sick days at like
every job, almost every job, itgives you sick days.
Yeah, or yeah, paid time off.
Uh was it just I I think welike it was kind of an unspoken
thing at at school when I was inhigh school, is you could get a
number of like it's not likeyou were handed sick days like
you are at a job.

(16:14):
It was one of those there wereconsequences after you took too
many sick days.
And like that number sometimeswasn't really known or whatever.
But why not allow you knowstudents and accommodate the
curriculum to have sick daystoo?

Charles (16:29):
Right.
Yeah, and I I would say, evento the point where I mean, in a
good job where you're working ona healthy, productive team, if
you get sick, somebody else isgoing to jump in and do your job
for you.
Now, obviously, the goal withschool should be we're trying to
get an education, we're tryingto learn things, but I would
say, yeah, you should thereshould be some incentive to say,

(16:51):
okay, if you're gonna missschool, here's the work you
should do to catch up, but we'renot gonna require you to turn
it homework for the days thatyou were sick.

Dan (16:58):
Yeah.
Or you can do the work at adifferent schedule, whatever.
I mean, these days withtechnology and everything, like
having that flexibility, youknow, you could do some more
virtual stuff, whatever.
There's no excuse to, you know,make sure somebody's sitting in
that seat 300, you know,whatever days, how many days are
you 180 days year, whatever itis, right?
Like, come on.

Charles (17:18):
Yeah, I I do, but again, we as we you and I have
talked about, you know, thewhole public school system in
this country was built onpreparing people to work
manufacturing jobs and beslaves, basically.
Yeah.
Show up when the whistle blowsand work hard until the second
whistle blows, and then you gohome, and then you know.
Yeah.
And yeah, in some cases it was,you know, in in some
industries, it was you lived oncompany land, you bought your

(17:43):
groceries from the companystore.
I mean, there was some crazypractices back in the day after
the industrial revolution, whereyeah, the the business magnates
pretty much ran your life.

Dan (17:52):
Yeah.
Well, what's interesting issome of those high technology
companies like you know, Googleand things like that, they also
they've it's interesting becausethey also will have different
incentive plans where the youknow you they'll get your
laundry done for you.
So they really want you there.
You know, they'll they'llarrange for babysitting,
whatever it is, whatever yourneeds are to keep you in that
office as much as possible.

(18:13):
Now, that's something I heardabout you know 10, 15 years ago.
Yeah.

Charles (18:16):
I know if that's still the culture.
I had heard that some of themeven had uh, you know, RV
campgrounds camps.
Oh, yeah.
Where you could you could liveon campus in your RV and save a
bunch of money.
And but you know, the trade-offwas you're right there if they
need you.
Yes.
And uh I would take that deal.
Yeah.

Dan (18:33):
I mean, and that's the thing, is uh and that might be
good for a phase of your life.
You that might be perfect foryou because it's like, I mean,
the housing in that air inSilicon Valley is ridiculous.
Right.
So to basically live, you know,fairly rent-free and and you
know, I mean, that's that's athat's uh you know, it's a
willing trade-off a lot ofpeople will take, sure.

Charles (18:51):
Yeah, so anyway, back to uh back to the sleep, yeah.
The sleep that we were talkingabout.
Uh I did like that he in insort of emphasizing the
importance of sleep, hebasically said, you can take a
day off of eating, you can takea day off of exercising, and the
impact to both of those willnot be comparable to taking a

(19:11):
day off of sleep.

Dan (19:12):
I think he even said drinking water.

Charles (19:14):
Yeah, he did.

Dan (19:14):
He the only thing was oxygen.

Charles (19:16):
Yeah, basically it's oxygen, then sleep, then
everything else.

Dan (19:20):
That's insane.

Charles (19:21):
But I mean, it kind of makes sense.
I mean, I do I have had somedays, you know, in the last five
or ten years where I had tostay up all night solving a
critical tech problem for one ofmy clients.
And yeah, the next day I I feellike garbage.
I mean, I can I think I'm I'mhealthy enough where I could
still do it, where if I have towork through a night, I can work

(19:41):
through a night and befunctional the next day, but not
at my best, and certainly nottwo days.
Yep.
Trying to do it two days in arow, absolutely not.
Where when I was, you know, um,when I was in college and I was
a camp counselor during thesummer, I had a couple of times
where I stayed up all night twonights in a row and just didn't
sleep at all.
And I I was loopy and I but Ididn't need to be very high

(20:03):
performing.
But God, thinking about doingthat now gives me the shivers.
Um let's see, one thing uh orhe did get into sleep supports
immunity, metabolism, emotionalregulation, which is a big one,
cardiovascular health, andhormone balance.
And when you don't have we'llwe'll get into what the the

(20:25):
negative side effects of chronicbad sleep, but um the emotional
regulation was one that reallystood out to me because there
are a lot of people that uh havepoor sleep, and to say that
they're grumpy or they woke upon the wrong side of the bed is
an understatement.
Like the yeah, peop people thatchronically abuse their sleep

(20:47):
schedules are not not nicepeople to be around.
I've I've seen it.
And they'll still brag abouthow little sleep they need, but
then the rest of the people intheir lives have to have to deal
with the yeah, the outcome ofthat and the consequences of
that.
Yeah.

Dan (21:02):
Um that's uh it it's it's if you think about it, it really
makes sense because sleep isdoing a lot of cleansing and a
lot of regeneration foreverything in your brain, and
your brain is controllingeverything in your body, right?
So your hormones, you know,they talk about appetite.
Um what's crazy is the theweight loss.

(21:25):
He said 60% of your weight losswill come from muscle if you're
not sleeping well.

Charles (21:30):
Yes, and I I am in the middle of of trying to trim down
right now, and uh I mean,really, I'm not doing what I
ought to be doing diet-wise tomaximize my muscle, but I am
doing what I need to doinjection-wise to maximize the
sustainability of my leap body,which is you know, I've I'm on

(21:51):
my doctor's prescribed dose ofuh testosterone and I'm getting
pretty good sleep.
And so, you know, whetherwhether my my scale is super
accurate about lean body mass ornot, at least I'm I'm
consistently using the samescale at the same time every
day.
And for what it's telling me isI am I'm cutting fat and I'm
not cutting anything else.
Yeah.
And hopefully I can I canmaintain that.

(22:13):
And I'm gonna I'm gonna do alittle bit better on the diet
side.
But on the sleep side, I I feellike you know, most nights for
me are a seven or eight out often.
Last night was a little belowaverage, but uh, or a little
below my average.
But for the most part, I get tobed pretty early and wake up
fairly early as well.
And it it seems to work for me.

(22:33):
And I like I don't usuallyduring the normal course of a
day feel like I need to take anap or feel like I am
shortchanging myself on sleep.
I I usually have a fair amountof energy all day long.
And then when it's time to goto bed, I go to bed and I fall
asleep fairly quickly.
Um and as a result, hopefully,as I keep uh I've got another 10

(22:55):
or 12 pounds to drop, hopefullyit will continue to be body fat
and not uh lean muscle mass.
Yeah.
Um he mentions that uh coupleswill often clash over their
mismatched sleep rhythms, andI've I've definitely I've had
that in relationships where forthe most part um I seem to be I

(23:17):
find myself in relationshipswith a lot of people who um not
always but typically go to bedlater and wake up later than me.
And he suggests um sleepdivorce.
Getting divorced.
Sleep divorce, yeah, where youha have separate sleeping
arrangements, which um I thinkhe mentioned something about the

(23:38):
Scandinavian method orsomething where it's two beds in
the same room.
Um, but he also noted that'snot as effective at dealing with
if one partner gets up and andgets up and and leaves a room
and comes back to the room inthe middle of the night, that's
still gonna be disruptive.
Or if one partner snores,that's still you know, being in
the same room is gonna be not asgood an option as having two

(24:01):
completely separate bedrooms.

Dan (24:02):
Yeah, they said the data shows that people when they
sleep by themselves get bettersleep, more rested sleep and but
they don't report better sleep.

Charles (24:10):
I thought that was interesting.

Dan (24:11):
That's right.
They said the level ofsatisfaction of sleep is uh
higher when you're sleeping witha part.

Charles (24:15):
And I I feel I feel like that's definitely the case.
I I would rather especially,you know, if if I'm if I'm with
somebody, I would rather sleepin a bed with them than sleep in
my own bed.
Yeah.
But, you know, that's it.
If I if I ever find myselfcohabitating with someone again,
I could see a scenario wherefor me, what I find is for me to

(24:36):
sleep comfortably, all I needis a full-size bed.
I don't need a king-sized bedif I'm sleeping alone to be
comfortable.
Okay.
So, like if I'm traveling andthe hotel's like, oh, we don't
have a king room for you, wehave two doubles.
No problem.
I don't care.
I can sleep perfectly fine bymyself in a double size in a
double bed.

Dan (24:52):
Yeah.

Charles (24:52):
Um, so that said, I ever found myself cohabitating
in a house with someone, I couldsee maybe in my in my office
having a full-size bed in there,so that um, you know, if if
either one of us were notsleeping well, it's very easy to
just get up and then, you know,or if over time I realize that

(25:13):
I'm not sleeping as well with mypartner as I would if I was
alone, you know, having thathaving that flexibility in a
house, I could see some value inthat.
Yeah.

Dan (25:22):
Yeah, I've I've needed to minimize the amount of when I've
been with somebody, uh the thebecause I'm a very late sleeper.
So I've needed, so I've gottenlike a split top king bed.
So basically what that is, itit it the the halfway split.
But you don't I hate the gap.
But you don't the gap isannoying, but you can shove some

(25:43):
pillows in the middle there soyou're not like falling in the
gap in the middle of uhwhatever.
But um, yeah, but the thing isthough, if somebody's getting up
or down, somebody's gotrestless leg syndrome, you're
not feeling that on the otherside of the bed.
And you're still you still havethat that still that that one
bed the other pieces havingcompletely separate blankets and
not so you're not like like oror they need to be really huge

(26:05):
so that you don't feel someonewhen they like turn over and
then they they they yank theblanket off of you.
And it's just it a lot of timeswe don't even notice when that
happens because we're mostlyasleep, but those little those
little disturbances will wake usup and take us out of the
proper state of our our brain,that that you know, the
brainwave state.

Charles (26:24):
So um I've had yeah, I've had the separate blanket
thing proposed by partnersbefore.
I'm like, absolutely not.
That is that is counter, thatis counter to my goals.
I want to be under the sameblanket as you and is that
interfere with your Dutch ovenactivity or is that the problem?
I would never um no, that isnot the problem.
It's just I I want to be ableto, when I'm cold, I want to be

(26:47):
able to roll over and spoon mypartner and warm, I want to be
able to roll over to the otherside, and I don't want extra
cloth and interference in theway.
Yeah.

Dan (26:57):
That uh I yeah, I I have I have pushed back and now have
you ever been with somebody whoneeds or would like the ambient
room temperature to be everyfucking time, yes.

Charles (27:09):
No, no, no different than what you would guess.
Yes.
Ugh.

Dan (27:13):
And I'm guessing it's warmer and not colder.
It's warmer.
Uh-huh.

Charles (27:18):
You've had that problem too?

Dan (27:20):
Oh, I've never not had that problem.

Charles (27:21):
Yeah, same.
I I've never been with anybodywho liked it as cold as I do.
Yeah.

Dan (27:25):
And yeah, that's that's tough, man, because now the one
workaround that I found for thisis expensive, but if you get
one of the, you know, thecooling devices that also offer
heating, um, so Uler is one ofthem.
I think eight sleep offers onethat's like ridiculously

(27:49):
expensive, but it's basically amat that's filled with water and
it can raise the temperature upand also adjust over on a
schedule throughout the courseof the night.
And so I've created I've boughttwo of them, so we have
independent ones.
So hers is a lot warmer, itkeeps her nice and warm while

(28:10):
the ambient temperature dropsand helps me sleep, and mine is
cold.
And that's that that is howI've gotten through that, but
that adds significant cost toany sleeping environment.

Charles (28:24):
See, and I I have but considering how important sleep
is, I think it's more than worththe imagination.
I get it.
I my my issue is anything I'mnot really comfortable adding
anything to the bed.
So I like I like the mattress,yeah, the fitted sheet.
Yeah.
If I add, you know, any kind ofa mattress topper or a mattress

(28:45):
cooler, or I mean, I I am barebones.
I am mattress, fitted sheet,comforter, no top sheet, just a
soft duvet cover that feels niceand and nothing else.
Okay and and I kinda I meanlisten, I my room, like just
last night, I turned it down to66 based on what I was usually I

(29:09):
keep it around probably 60, 69is is usually where I keep it.
But last night I went down to66 and the room around me is not
comfortable, it's too cold.
But underneath, but the bedwith the comforter on me is
perfect, and I like it to thepoint where I don't want to get
out from under the covers.
That that is what's comfortablefor me, where the air is cold

(29:31):
enough that I don't want to getout from under the blanket.
Yeah.
But I've yeah, I've never datedanybody that likes it that
cold.
And I don't know.
I mean, it's kind of weirdthough, because I mean, the the
average woman has a higher bodyfat percentage than the average
man, so it can't be related tothat.

Dan (29:52):
Uh, I think actually one of the biggest drivers in terms of
how warm we are is how much weeat.
And And if my my experience isthe the ladies that I've been
dating typically eat a lot lessthan than I do, but also less
than what their body needs.
And so their body doesn't, yourcells don't have that extra

(30:14):
energy to give off as heat.
And a lot of them either thator they've got some some some
thyroid issues between those twothings that will absolutely
affect your body temperature.
So what feels, you know,something that feels cold to us
could be feeling extremely cold,much more cold to somebody else
who doesn't have that extrabody heat to give off.

Charles (30:34):
Well, I'm gonna push back a little bit because I've
known many of your formerrelationships.
Yeah.
You think they were perpetuallyin calorie deficits?
Uh yeah, actually.
Or nutrient deficits.
Well, maybe nutrient deficit.
Yeah.

Dan (30:48):
I think so.
And and also some thyroidissues as well.
Okay, I could see that.
But absolutely.

Charles (30:53):
Yeah, I didn't.

Dan (30:54):
Yeah.
Because it would be, it would,it would be, and it wasn't just
when we're sleeping.
It was just like sittingaround, always colder than I
was.

Charles (31:03):
Um, I'm in I'm in a significant death.

Dan (31:08):
Driving in a car, like I want the air conditioning like
blowing right on me.
They turn it completely off.

Charles (31:13):
Oh, see, even in my car, yeah, my car, the air
conditioner is never off.
It it's yeah.
Oh no, okay.
It's always on the lowesttemperature setting and then the
lowest fan setting.
Yeah.
Like even when I get cold, Inever turn it off because the
air the air gets stale.
So what I'm doing right now isI have the air on the lowest
setting for both the temperatureand the fan, and I have the

(31:36):
heated seats on the lowestsetting as well.
So I get a little bit of alittle bit of warmth from the
seats.
But yeah, I am I am alwaysrunning hot.
I don't know what Yeah.
I mean But the science saysthat that is where I should be
for the best quality sleep.
Absolutely.

Dan (31:53):
Yeah.
I think I think that's thething too, is I'm wondering see,
there's a range there, and Iguess they don't really ever
talk about what um what we'recoming into the room with.
Like what of what what is ourbody like what does our
interpretation of thattemperature feel like on on
somebody, right?
So I think that's part of ittoo.

(32:14):
I guess if you're feeling toocold, I don't know.
Is that is that a thing?
I don't know.

Charles (32:19):
I'm sure, I'm sure too cold you know, is a thing.

Dan (32:22):
But maybe that's that's that's what it is.
But that's why running in aproblem.

Charles (32:26):
I don't know.
Yeah.
You know, is it is it my body'stoo cold or is I'm just not
used to it.

Dan (32:31):
I mean, it's so here's the thing is but my you know, my
partners would always sleep atno problem at a much warmer
temperature, and they get greatsleep.
And yeah, am I a littlejealous?
Absolutely.
Uh, but that was that they theywere just sleeping well at at a
temperature where I there's noway I couldn't sleep.

Charles (32:48):
Yeah, I dated one girl where she slept with her windows
open no matter what thetemperature was outside.
In Florida?
Yes.
Oh, yes, dude.
Yeah, AC off, windows open, nomatter what the temperature was
outside.

Dan (33:02):
Was she from the equator?

Charles (33:04):
Yes.
Okay.
She was from Guatemala.
Okay.
There you go.
All right.
All right, let's move on.
So, yeah, that that worked forher, but it did not work for me.

Dan (33:13):
Okay.

Charles (33:14):
Um, okay, so let's talk a little bit.
You took your quiz on uh I did.
What was that?
Uh sleepdock.com slash sleepdash quiz.
And I was a lion, which means Iam naturally alert early, most
productive before noon, andready to wind down by nine or
ten.
And that's me to a T.

Dan (33:32):
Yeah.

Charles (33:32):
Um it also said it did say it suggested that early
morning workouts are good.
Um yes, if if it's uh steadystate cardio.
Like going for a walk.
I love an early morning walk.
Yeah.
Lifting heavy early in themorning, not so much.
Um, but like a 6 30 a.m.
walk is my ideal.

(33:54):
That is perfect for me.

Dan (33:55):
Yeah.

Charles (33:55):
Um, I feel great on an early, early morning walk with
uh right now I'm listening toStrong Ground by Brene Brown,
which is amazing.
I'm gonna do another mini bookreport on that once I uh once I
finish it.
And uh it's great.
Um just yeah, there's there area few things I enjoy more than
a nice long walk.
And I mean, long is relative.
For me, I did five and a halfmiles yesterday and it was it

(34:19):
was great.
I I love you know having thatfirst cup of coffee.
Well, first cup of coffee andfirst dump in the morning and
then going for the walk is isoptimal for me.
Yeah, because uh yeah, where Iwalk around, um, there are not a
lot of public restrooms readilyavailable.
I made that mistake when Ifirst moved back to Winter
Garden.
I went for the walk with thecup of coffee in hand, and I

(34:42):
found myself like, okay, this isthis could be a problem.
It wasn't.
I was able to take care ofbusiness and get get where I
needed to go, but it can oof.

Dan (34:52):
When I was doing 75 Hard last year and I was doing those
45 minute walks, yeah, I had acouple of uh accidents that
let's just put it that way,where I didn't I didn't make it
back on time, you know.
Um so I feel you.
I literally I I feel that uhfor sure.

Charles (35:08):
Yeah, that's why when my my best day is um well, my
best, like everybody, or likeeverybody who's come to this
conclusion, your best day startswith your best night the night
before, getting everythingready.
And for me, that includeshaving my workout clothes ready
and also having my delightfulbun, heat, and brew coffee maker

(35:29):
programmed and ready so that Iwake up to a pot of freshly
brewed coffee.
I start sipping and you know,doing some of the just bare
minimum, not not any heavy workbefore my first walk, but um
just sort of you know opening upmy computer and seeing you know
what the day looks like.
Yeah, sipping on the coffee, gointo the restroom, and then
hitting the road and doing, youknow, at least three miles.

(35:52):
Ideally, if I can get six in,that's that's perfect.
Um but yeah, so the uh the lionlikes that.
You are a dolphin.

Dan (36:02):
Right.
Tell me a little bit aboutthat.

Charles (36:04):
So he said that's only 10% of the population because
Oh, these are chronotypes, bythe way.
This is basically you take youtake this little quiz and it
says based on based on yourattitudes towards sleep and what
you notice about your sleep,here's here's what you are, and
here's how you should optimize.

Dan (36:20):
Yeah, and he said, you know, it's it's 10%.

Charles (36:22):
I think I'm 15.

Dan (36:23):
Okay.
So it was it was the lowestamount of people are are the
dolphin chronotypings because wewe're all over the place a
little bit.

Charles (36:32):
Yeah, the other ones I think were bear and wolf, were
those and there's only four,right?
Right with this guy's test.
Yeah.

Dan (36:37):
Um so for me, it's it's not early morning exercise, but
it's like mid-morning exerciseor mid-morning tasks.
I I'm I'm great like from likenine to one or two, something
like that.
Um before and afterwards,groggy or or tired type of
thing.
Um so it was it was I mean, itwas accurate for the the

(37:02):
questions that he asked me.
Um yeah, so that I I don'treally have anything other than
um he really just said that youknow the chronotypes can change
over time and depending on ourage as well.
So I yeah, I other than that,like dolphins are just kind of

(37:22):
like inconsistent with theirlike light sleepers, yeah, they
can wake up easily.
Um, and I think that was alsoone of the things he was
mentioning with the the half ofa brain sleeping at once.

Charles (37:34):
Yeah, dolphins can are one of the animals.

Dan (37:36):
Because they have to they have to get up, right?
Because they have to get to thesurface, they can't just sleep
underwater the whole time,right?
Because they have to get theyhave to get some oxygen at some
point.
Yeah.
Um, I'm just thinking, what apain in the ass that's gotta be.
But apparently, I guess ifyou're if your brain can do
that, that's that's an amazingthing.
I uh I gotta figure out how tohow to hack that.
Is there a biohack to have halfof our brain sleep and the

(37:57):
other one awake and then switchit off and and rotate?

Charles (38:02):
Not uh not that he said in this podcast and uh I talked
to Dr.
Mike about that, and I said,I'm sure there's some sort of
drug they're working on forthat.
Yeah.
I mean that would be amazing.
But then we're bored afterthat, after that's been solved.
Right, but then all diseasesand cured and then the
half-brain stuff uh can can bethe the next thing.

(38:25):
Uh he does talk about uh hegoes through a list of what
society could do differently tomake things better.
Um he mentions that governmentshave lots of campaigns and
public service announcementsabout a lot of things, but not
getting good sleep.
Uh businesses could replace theidea that sleep is weakness
with sleep is good.
And it was interesting.
He did mention that um ifemployees take a survey on the

(38:49):
presentation skills of theleaders, if the leader has been
sleep deprived, even if the theemployees have no idea what the
the sleep schedule of the CEO orthe leader is, they will rate
them as less charismatic ifthey've delivered a presentation
on less hours of sleep versusmore hours of sleep.
It makes sense.
It totally makes sense.

Dan (39:08):
Right.
Yeah.
I I am I'm absolutely morecreative when when I've got, you
know, and and and taking on,you know, they talk about your
biggest task as as the frog,right?
For you know, swallow that fogas a book.
I and I know and also willingto take challeng uh risks and
take on challenges.
I think they were talking aboutthat employees were a lot less

(39:29):
likely to take on a challengingtask if they're sleep deprived.

Charles (39:34):
And it makes sense.
Yeah, that's that's interestingbecause the the part of the uh
of Brene Brown's book that I wasjust listening to this morning
um was really it was aboutcreating an environment where
people feel safe taking risksand rewarding people for taking
smart calculated risks versusrewarding them for the outcome.

(39:55):
So you wanna you want to be ina company or an organization
where you are encouraged andrewarded based on taking a good
risk, not necessarily how wellor poorly that risk works out.
Yeah.
Because I mean, lear learningwhat is a good risk versus a bad
risk and being encouraged totake good risks is more

(40:16):
important for the long-termhealth of your organization than
just rewarding good outcomesand punishing bad outcomes.
And yeah, having having aworkforce that is taking their
sleep needs seriously will willadd to that.

Dan (40:30):
Yeah.

Charles (40:31):
Um, I want to talk a little bit about napping.
So um I've heard differentthings, as uh Steve Bartlett,
the the host, had heard, wherebasically if you can't sleep for
a certain amount of time duringa nap, you're better off not
taking the nap in the firstplace.
Where it doesn't actually workthat way.
What the way it seems to workis short naps are good, long

(40:51):
naps are good, medium-term napsnot so good.
And uh I'm going to definitelyremember that when I'm in a
situation where I need a nap.

Dan (41:00):
So do you remember what they defined as medium-term?

Charles (41:03):
Yes.
So um I believe he said that anap as short as nine minutes can
have a um a positive benefit toyour mood and your reaction
time.
If you go longer than 30minutes, though, there's a good
chance that you're gonna getinto some of the kinds of sleep

(41:26):
that are harder to wake up from.
And so there could still besome benefit, but immediately
after you wake up, it's gonna bea little bit harder to get back
into the swing of things.

Dan (41:37):
Okay.

Charles (41:38):
Where um the impression I got was 20 to 30 minutes.
If you're we're talking about aworkday nap, like during your
work hours, 20 to 30 minutes isabout as good as it's gonna get
for you.
Where if it's a littledifferent, like I would say,
say, for example, you work allday and then like on a Friday,
you work all day on Friday, andthen you know you're gonna go

(42:00):
out with your friends and you'regonna stay out late and you
wanna have a little bit of juiceto do that, then you could go
up to 60 minutes or even maybe alittle bit longer to replenish
some of those, recharge some ofthose batteries so that when you
go out, you'll be able to stayawake later.
But keep in mind it could alsonegatively, when you do finally
get home, you might have alittle bit more trouble getting
to sleep.

Dan (42:20):
I think that's was he saying that's because we're
getting into the different sleepcycles or sleep stages when
we're doing those longer naps.

Charles (42:28):
Yeah, I think REM and deep sleep are both a little
harder to get out of quickly.
Yeah.
Where light sleep is easier toget out of quickly, but it's
less recharging than the othertwo as well.

Dan (42:38):
Another point that he made, which is interesting, is a lot
of people think REM sleep is isthe good stuff.
And he said, no, no, no.
Light sleep, deep, deep sleep,and rem, they're all good stuff.
Right.
And it's not one is better thanthe other.
It's kind of where what youneed, right?
And but REM, I think does a lotof the the repair that I think
they were talking about, right?

(42:59):
Was that well is that right?

Charles (43:00):
It's because REM is when the dreaming happens.
Yeah.
And then the dreaming happensis when um he he mentioned
specifically for any negativeexperiences that you have.
Um the emotional regulation.
Right.
Rem Rem's job, part of Rem'sjob, is to allow you to hold on
to the memory of those negativeexperiences without holding on
to the negative emotions thatyou experienced while you were

(43:22):
going through it.

Dan (43:23):
Interesting.
And and that's probably why alot of us look back on old
relationships and things andwith a fading effect bias.

Charles (43:31):
Exactly.

Dan (43:31):
And we're like, oh, it wasn't so bad.

Charles (43:33):
Yes.
Meanwhile, it's it's part ofRem's job to let you look back
on on previous things as lesstraumatic than they felt in the
moment.

Dan (43:42):
That's why it's a good idea to write yourself a note uh
right in the moment when you'regoing through something
traumatic.

Charles (43:49):
So you're doing journaling just think yes, a
journaling practice on for somany reasons is a good idea.
Yeah.
And I I've just gotten backinto my my five-year journal,
man.
I I see there are some gapswhere I wrote for it the first
time in 21.

Dan (44:01):
Yeah.

Charles (44:02):
And now like 20, like today.
Like I had my first entry wasin 2021, and then my second
entry for October 17th was 2025.
I completely skipped 22, 23,and 24.

Dan (44:13):
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
I it's been a while since I'vebeen, I have one as well.
I haven't put it in there.
But what's interesting is Ijust had a thought was a lot of
times when I journal a littlebit at right before bed or just
plan my day, just like kind oflook through all my appointments
for the next day.
If I do that the night before,I usually sleep better.
And I'm wondering if that'sbecause I need, I'm not getting

(44:35):
enough REM sleep, probably.
And I'm wondering if I needless REM sleep because I'm not
having emotions or thingsrunning through the back of my
mind, like I don't know a littlebit of like low-level anxiety
of I don't know what's coming upthe next day because I didn't
look at it the night before.
Now, I don't have that if I'vedone that.

(44:55):
And maybe that's why I end upsleeping a little bit better or
I feel like I've been sleeping alittle bit better the next day.

Charles (45:02):
Yeah, I wonder if uh from a strict uh from strict
definition, I wonder if someonewho is a light sleeper is
spending more of their time inthe light sleep cycle, if that's
exactly what it means, or if itmeans other things.
I I don't know.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is it just your your body ismore open to the stimulation

(45:25):
around you in your sleepenvironment when you're a light
sleeper, or is it that youliterally spend more percentage
of your time in light sleep thandeeper than deep sleep sleep
than somebody else?

Dan (45:35):
Yeah.

Charles (45:35):
So that that might be something for us to look up.
Let's talk about caffeinebriefly.
And this is another this iswhere I am guilty of some
magical thinking, which is, youknow, I'm I'm happy to say, you
know, anybody who is like, I canget by on four hours of sleep
or five hours of sleep, they'rea douchebag.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
Um, where I make the mistake bysaying, oh, caffeine, you know,

(45:57):
coffee and caffeine late in theday, it doesn't affect my sleep
at all.
Well, the evidence is it doesaffect it.
Now, I I don't experience someof the same.
I've got friends, um, maybeyou, or you, or well, humble
brag, right?
I've got friends that wouldsay, Oh, if I have a cup of
coffee after four o'clock in theafternoon or an espresso or
something, I I won't be able toget to sleep.

(46:19):
Where I've never had thatproblem.
I can yeah, I can have a cup ofespresso with dessert after
dinner at 9 30 and then get youknow, get home by 10 and pretty
much fall asleep right away.
But what the science says isthe quality of your sleep is not
going to be as good as if youdidn't have the caffeine.

Dan (46:38):
Yeah, and that's I think the same case with alcohol.
Like you might be able to getto sleep a little bit better.

Charles (46:42):
You feel like you're you fall asleep faster with the
quality.
And he makes a good uh, andlet's talk about alcohol and
sleep medications.
The big thing that hit me inthat section of the conversation
was being asleep and beingsedated are not the same thing.
Yeah.
And um of the things thathappen to you while you're

(47:07):
sedated overlap with some of thethings that happen to you while
you're asleep, but not enoughof them to make you feel like,
okay, if I am hammering themelatonin or the alcohol or the
unisom or the benadryl or thewhatever or the THC every night
to get to sleep, that's not thesame thing as falling asleep
naturally.
And you're not getting the samehealth benefits.

(47:29):
So don't think that there issomething that you know you
shake out of a bottle that'sgoing to give you the same
thing.
And that's why he said,especially for chronic insomnia,
the number one fix for that isgoing to be cognitive behavioral
therapy, not something thatcomes out of a pill bottle.

Dan (47:46):
Yeah.
And interestingly enough, um Ifeel like reflecting on your
day, journaling, planning forthe next day, there that's a
little bit of uh some cognitivebehavioral therapy there for
yourself.
It's not not the official, butyou are I still think through

(48:07):
things uh and and you're usingyour brain to kind of, you know,
it's obviously not exactly thesame, but it it's still the same
type of method where you arethinking through some things and
you're kind of bringingyourself back into reality.

Charles (48:24):
I mean, yes, it's certainly better than nothing, I
would say.
And I mean, but the I mean,based based on the impression I
got from what he said was thatthe cause of insomnia is
anxiety, either anxiety in yourmind or anxiety in your body.
And and the way to work throughanxiety is through CBT.

Dan (48:44):
Yeah.

Charles (48:44):
And if there are other things, you know, non-chemical
solutions that you can likeroutines or meditation,
stretching, working out, goingfor a walk right in before bed,
if there are things you can doto at least on some level make
peace with your anxiety beforeyou lay in the bed, then you
should definitely do thosethings.
But for somebody with chronicinsomnia where you are just not

(49:07):
getting the rest that you need,then I think talking to somebody
and and working through thoseroot causes of that anxiety are
going to be the way to do it.

Dan (49:15):
Mostly at a level that is not going to be impacted by you
know breathing techniques,right?
Right?

Charles (49:20):
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, let's see, there wassomething else I wanted to say
about um about oh, if you findyourself in bed and you can't
get back to sleep or you can'tget to sleep, he says 30 minutes
is pretty much the window whereif you're just laying there for
30 minutes trying to go back tosleep and you can't go back to
sleep, there's a couple things.

(49:41):
You should probably get out ofbed because you don't want to
associate being in bed with notbeing able to sleep.
Um, so get up, do somethingelse.
The other, the other course ofaction is, and and part of this
is what are you capable oftalking yourself into?
If you can talk yourself into,okay, whether I go to sleep or
not, no big deal.

(50:02):
I am gonna lay here and I'mgonna relax and be as restful as
I possibly can.
And that's gonna be goodenough.
I'll still be able to, I'll getmy job done tomorrow.
I'll be able to safely drive towork and back, and I will be
able to perform adequatelytomorrow, even if I just lay
here and rest and and relax asmuch as I can.

Dan (50:19):
Yeah.

Charles (50:19):
If you can believe that, number one, you will still
get some benefit from layingthere and resting, even if
you're not asleep.
And number two, you're alsomore likely to just fall asleep.
So it's either get up and dosomething that gets you out of
the environment where you feelthe high pressure to sleep,
whether that's go watch TV, gosit at your desk, whatever it

(50:40):
is, just get up and get out ofthe bed and then go back to the
bed when you're tired, or makepeace with the fact that you can
be in bed not sleeping andstill be okay with yourself.
The other thing he said is takeall the clocks out of your
bedroom.
If if you suffer from insomniato the point where you wake up
and you can't get back to sleep,and it makes you anxious
because you're in watch theclock, yeah, move move along.

Dan (51:02):
Was um was it Steven or or the doctor who said that they
heard of a a technique or a rulewhere uh if you are gonna use
your phone in your bedroom,yeah, you have to stand.

Charles (51:15):
Yes.
I think it was the doctor.

Dan (51:16):
Yeah.
So you can't, as soon as yousit down on your bed with your
phone, uh, you're done.
So you can use your phone inyour room, but you can only do
it while you're standing.

Charles (51:25):
Yes.
I thought that was interesting.
That is pretty good.
Yeah, the idea of you can haveyour phone in your room, you can
use your phone in your room inyour bedroom, but if you're
gonna do it, do it standing up.
And I that's the yeah, I Iprobably I definitely do lean
toward the side of doing toomany things in my bed.
Where and and it used to drivemy one of my ex-girlfriends

(51:50):
crazy because if it was time towatch a movie, if it was time to
spend time with each other, andand part of it was in my
smaller RV, I didn't really havea lot of seating areas.
I had yeah, like the only TVwas in the bedroom, and that was
it.
And yeah, that didn't uh did Ieven have a TV in that bedroom?

(52:10):
I don't I don't remember.
Yeah, I did.
I had a TV up on the up on thewall and an arm.
And uh yeah, that was it.
If if we were gonna watch amovie, in my place it was laying
in the bed, and she hated that.
She was like, no, the and shewas right.
I mean, you know, yeah.
Hey, if you're listening, youwere right.
The bed is for sex and the bedis for sleep.
And that should be the onlything that the bed is for.

(52:31):
Yep.
If you're watching a movie, gosit on the couch.
Because not to brag, my new RVhas a couch, and it's a nice one
too.
Um, but yeah, that is therethere's science behind that idea
that you you don't you don'tlay in the bed to have a
conversation, you don't lay inthe bed to watch TV.
The lay in the bed is forsleeping and for sex.

Dan (52:51):
Yeah, I mean, I go to a desk to do my my work.
I don't do it in the bed or inthe bedroom.
Like I I know people have uhdesks in their bedroom.
I could never do that.
It's just our brains are soassociative with location and uh
the experiences that we have.

Charles (53:06):
So yeah, and I have uh I now have a uh a TV in my
living room, and I have a TV inmy bedroom.
And I find that I really didn'tneed the second TV for the
living room.
I could have just moved the thebedroom because I never use the
bedroom TV.
It's uh any media consumption,it's usually a podcast or

(53:28):
something that I don't have to,you know.
It might be something onYouTube, but I'm not I don't
care about what the video is.
I'm just listening to it.
Yep.
And so I listen to that on myphone, and the uh yeah, the
bedroom TV is not seeing muchuse at all.
And I I actually have um I'vegot the TV in the living room on
a stand.
So it's in that that sort ofcubby where you would put a TV.

(53:48):
I mean, your old camper, youknow where it is.
Uh, but it's on a stand where Ican easily unplug it.
And then I also have some areaon the um the kitchen counter
where I can set the TV and thenit's like right deadline right
across from the couch.
Okay.
So I can I can move it aroundand uh and very easily watch
watch TV from the couch, whichis uh which is nice because

(54:10):
yeah, the I believe them 100%.
So let me um hit a couple morethings.
Number one, your blue lightmode on your phone or your
tablet is actually useful in somuch as it depends on what
you're doing on your phone or onyour tablet.
So if you turn on nighttimemode where it minimizes the blue

(54:31):
light, but you're stillscrolling through social media,
either getting excited or angryat what you're seeing, still not
good.
And it's going to negativelyaffect your sleep.
If you are, you know, kind ofconsuming relaxing media on your
phone or on your tablet andyou're in in nighttime mode with
the blue light turned off, thenthat there is some benefit to

(54:51):
that.

Dan (54:51):
Yep.

Charles (54:52):
Um, the other thing he said was no screen 60 minutes
before bed, which I I can't, Idon't know that I can do that.

Dan (54:58):
Oh, that's that's a hard ass for everybody.

Charles (55:00):
Yeah.
Um and also he said, turn downthe lights in your place as it
gets close to dark, which Ithat's already a habit of mine
anyway.
I I don't keep bright overheadlights on when it's not
absolutely necessary.
So basically, if I'm cooking orI'm doing paperwork, then I've
got bright lights on.
If it's anything else, then thelights are not on.

(55:20):
Yeah.
Um let's see.
He does he does talk about thelink between trying to, we we
talked about trying to loseweight on poor sleep.
It's going to just eat yourmuscle instead of your fats.
That is, that is very tough.
And he said, um, there arefewer, I'm trying to remember
how he said it, but he basicallysaid there are fewer
correlations in medical scienceas solid as the fact that if you

(55:45):
sleep poorly, you are going tobe overweight.
Yeah.

Dan (55:48):
That is just I mean, I will see it on a day-to-day basis.
If I don't sleep well the nextday, I haven't I haven't dropped
any weight.
Like I'm I'm either the same ormore.
And you know, with regardlessof of what I ate the day before.

Charles (56:02):
Yeah, he said that uh if you wake up uh after a bad
night of sleep, your body isusually just going to instruct
you to eat an additional threeor four hundred calories.

Dan (56:12):
Yeah.
So I think I think for whenthat's happening, I think that
is, in all fairness, waterweight, your body is holding on
to extra fluid is it in terms ofprotecting yourself because it
realizes, hey, yeah, I'm notgetting what I need.

Charles (56:25):
What you see on the scale.
Correct.
But the motivation to eatanother three or four hundred
calories the next time that willadd up.
Yeah, that that's allhormone-based, I think, with the
uh what is it, the ghrelin andthe uh and leptin, yeah.
And uh yeah, you if if you'retrying to maintain or lose an
extra three or four hundredcalories a day is gonna make
either of those yeah, you know,significant.

(56:46):
I go for these five and a halfmile walks and they're good for
like 700 calories.
It's ridiculous how how littlehow little walking around
actually you know burns.
It's so unfair because one onegood one fancy donut is is gonna
blow that away, or one crumblecookie is gonna blow that away.
So it's completely unfair.
Um, I did want to say, oh, I'vegot 10 action steps and I want

(57:11):
to read through these.
So if you if if you're willingto take on having better sleep
like I am, um see how many ofthese you're already doing or
are willing to do.
Number one, keep a fixedbedtime and a fixed wake time.
I can do that.
I'm not doing it right now, butI can do that and I I should do
that and I will do that.
Uh, how about you?

Dan (57:31):
It's uh yeah, except for weekends.
Can't do it.

Charles (57:33):
Can't can't.
Can't or won't.

Dan (57:36):
Won't won't.
I I yeah, I just um yourschedule changes quite a bit on
the weekend?
Yeah, enough to where it isusually three hours past when I
normally go to sleep.

Charles (57:49):
You want me to give you a tip on that?
Learn to hate live music.
That has really worked at live.
Workers for me.
Yeah, work I love.
Not not having a uh, yeah.
If you if you hate uh if youhate drinking alcohol and you
hate live music, it's a loteasier to keep that uh weekend
schedule exactly the same as theweekday.
So sure.
Um dim your lights one hourbefore bed.

(58:10):
We talked about that.
Keep your bedroom cool.
He said 65 to 68 is a sweetspot.
Uh cut caffeine afternoon.

Dan (58:19):
Just cut caffeine all together like I did.
Have you?
I have.
I mean, I will uh I mean I'vebeen I so I haven't been like
zero caffeine, but I've probablyover the last month I've had
maybe three or four cups ofregular coffee and maybe one or
two caffeinated sodas.
Wow.
Yeah.
And it it has helped my sleep.

(58:40):
Interesting.
Yeah, I was I I cut it back.
So I stopped at two, and then Istopped having caffeine at
noon, and then I stoppedaltogether, and I f I feel
better.
I mean, I I don't avoid it.
I you know, I I don't so if I'ma girlfriend, she makes great
coffee, uh, you know, we'll havea cup or whatever together.

Charles (59:01):
That's a fancy machine.

Dan (59:02):
Yeah, it's it's it's delicious.
And so I'll I'll do that oncein a while.
Yeah.
Um, not even once a week, maybeonce every two weeks now.
Um, but it's it's been morethan a month.
Um, yeah, the headaches,they're there for the first week
because you're withdrawing, butafter that.

Charles (59:17):
See, I've stopped caffeine and I've not had the
headaches.
I wonder if that's related toWell, you're probably very quick
metabolic.

Dan (59:23):
I think you're a quick metabolite.

Charles (59:24):
Yeah, I wonder if you're not going to be able to
say, yeah, I wonder if it's thesame thing that that lets me
seemingly drink it all daywithout feeling impact, you
know, also lets me get off of itwithout the headaches.
I've never I've never had thecaffeine headache that I can
remember from from giving it up.
And I, you know, I've done likesome juice cleanses and stuff
where I I haven't had coffee andI've I've not had the
headaches.
Um avoid alcohol within threehours of bed.

(59:47):
Um that's easy for me.
I uh use bed only for sleep andsex, which I'm pretty much
there now.
Yeah.
Um get up after 30 minutesawake, meaning don't lay in bed
in 30 minutes.
Minutes even I I can't becauseI'm a lion and I wake up and
I've I am hungry and I amenergized when I wake up.
So I know I want to get out ofbed, I want to make my coffee, I

(01:00:09):
want to have a snack, and Iwant to get out the door on my
walk.
Um like I'm I'm not a bigsnoozer.
Are you a snoozer?
No.
Yeah, me neither.
When nope, uh I might I mightsnooze once, yeah, but never and
and on that test, it basicallycategorizes zero to one snoozes
versus many snoozes.
Those are like the two choicesyou have.

Dan (01:00:29):
I actually don't wake up with an alarm clock.
I mean, it's I wake up beforemy I set one as an emergency.

Charles (01:00:35):
I usually wake up before my two.

Dan (01:00:36):
And so I like to wake up on my own.
Uh, it's a lot less disruptive,it's a lot less anxiety when
you hear when you don't heareven like these gentle alarms
and stuff sometimes just reallylike jerk me out of bed.
So I try to plan my days sothat I don't need to be, you
know, I I've got that emergencycutoff just in case I'm I had a
horrible night's sleep and I endup sleeping late.

Charles (01:00:56):
But usually sleep before I wake up before my you
know, one of the things I missedabout my old uh the original or
fairly old uh Fitbits were thatthey had a thing where you
could program it to say, okay, Ineed to be awake at 6 a.m.
Yep.
And then it would basicallyfind when you were in light

(01:01:18):
sleep based on your bodymovement before 6 a.m.
It would it wouldn't let youget back into deeper REM.
It would say, oh, okay, youknow, you're you're 35 minutes
away from the time you want towake up and you're in light
sleep right now, so I'm gonnawake you up right now.
Oh, that's nice, and that wasnice.
I I yeah, I might need to seeif uh we were talking before we
recorded.
I've got the Apple Watch 2Ultra now, and it is a little

(01:01:42):
based on the the actual body ofthe watch and the metallic um uh
titanium band that I like, it'sa little bulkier than when I
had my Apple Watch six, so it'sa little harder to sleep with.
But if I could find something,an app for that where it would
basically say, okay, you know,wear it all night.
We're gonna monitor your sleep,and when we can tell that

(01:02:02):
you're in light sleep beforeyour alarm, we'll wake you up
then.
Yeah, I might look at switchingback to that.
Um, we'll see.
Um, he says, don't rely onweekends for catching up.
The catching up on sleep is amyth.
You know, you can you can get alittle bit of it back by
sleeping extra.
Like if you don't sleep or onlysleep for a couple hours, the

(01:02:23):
very next day, if you sleep alittle longer, you'll get some
of that back.
Yeah.
But there's no screwingyourself out of sleep all week
and then making up for it on theweekend.
That it doesn't work that way.
Yeah.
Uh meditate 10 minutes nightly.
Nighttime meditation is toughfor me.
I can meditate for 10 minutes aday, but I usually have to do
it in the morning.
Yep.
Um I'll try it though.
I'm not gonna just dismiss itout of hand.

(01:02:43):
I I mean, I'll even try thecutting caffeine afternoon.
Yeah.
A little.

Dan (01:02:48):
I'm curious.

Charles (01:02:49):
But that's gonna be tough.
Yeah.
Um and then track how you know,if you do make some of these
improvements and you do getbetter consistent sleep, try to
notice through journalingwhether the positive benefits
are there for you and give it aweek before you decide that this
is horseshit.
I'm not gonna keep doing this.
So good.
Those are the uh pieces ofadvice.
All right, Dan, let's stopthere and I will uh talk to you

(01:03:11):
next time.
Sounds good.
Okay, that wraps up thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine Podcast.
We hope our conversation aboutsleep gave you a few practical
ways to rest better, recoverfaster, and show up as your best
self.
If you know someone who mightbenefit from or enjoy this
episode, please share it withthem.
It's one of the best ways tosupport the show.
Thank you for listening to theentire episode, and we'll talk

(01:03:31):
to you next time.